1 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:41,640 I was chatting to a cartoonist trend of friend of mine this 2 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:45,800 week and and he was saying that it's not looking good in the UK. 3 00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:51,120 Well, a whole host of things going on in the UK in this area. 4 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:55,600 We've got the Online Safety Act, we can talk more about that. 5 00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:58,000 We've got the use of the Terrorism Act. 6 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:00,520 I'm quite sure Charles will have a lot to say about that. 7 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:07,200 And we have the absolute determination by the government 8 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:10,360 to paint everybody that's critical of government narrative 9 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:14,120 as being a right wing extremism extremist. 10 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:18,040 And but Jeremy, what I'm going to say to you straight away is 11 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:21,080 we have been telling people that this was what was going to 12 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:25,400 happen since 2016 when the original online harms white 13 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:30,160 paper came out 2017. And we've been talking about the 14 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:34,360 rise of right wing extremism narrative not and we've been 15 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:38,120 saying that that was not real from about the same time. 16 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:42,400 And so, you know, none of this should be a surprise to anybody 17 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:43,800 that's been following the column. 18 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:48,760 We've got people being stopped from speaking out in reality, 19 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:53,160 whenever you know, it doesn't matter how misguided the people 20 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:58,640 who posted on social media over the the stabbings in the school 21 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:03,840 last August, doesn't matter how misguided some of those comments 22 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:08,840 were, in my opinion. People went to prison for what 23 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:13,000 they posted on social media and some people died in prison for 24 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:14,520 what they posted on social media. 25 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:17,960 At the same time, the British government released murderers 26 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:21,280 and rapists from prison to make room for these people. 27 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:25,680 This was a direct attack by the British government on the people 28 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:29,040 of this country in order to make sure that there was a chilling 29 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:32,640 effect on any criticism of government policy. 30 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:35,720 Now, that's aside from the other things that we've been talking 31 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:40,640 about, that this is real, it's happening and and you know, I 32 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:44,680 will die on the hill of everybody's right to say what 33 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:47,320 they think. I may not agree with any of it. 34 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:50,720 So what? That is the point of dialogue. 35 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:53,920 You can't have a dialogue if you're shutting, shutting down 36 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:57,160 freedom of speech. It's as simple as that. 37 00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:00,480 And this is real. It's happening absolutely every 38 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:04,240 single day of the week. People are being arrested for 39 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:08,760 speaking out on topics that the British government does not want 40 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:12,240 people speaking out on. So the, so the, the, the two key 41 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:15,840 acts that are being used here are first of all on the Online 42 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:17,960 Safety Act, which I can say something about. 43 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:22,080 And the second act is the Terrorism Act, which Charles can 44 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:27,640 absolutely say something about. Yeah, I mean, there's, there's 45 00:03:27,640 --> 00:03:30,120 that side. I think there's also the, the 46 00:03:30,120 --> 00:03:34,040 Public Order Act would sorry, the, the Public Order Act 1986. 47 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:38,480 We've now got the Public Order Act 2023 as well that I think 48 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:42,520 another point to bring in when we're talking about how free 49 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:44,880 speech and discussion around it has flared up over the last 50 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:49,760 couple of weeks. We are also seeing how the 51 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:52,920 groundwork that was prepared surrounding what was described 52 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:56,960 as hate speech is coming into its own. 53 00:03:56,960 --> 00:04:00,800 Because for a large number of people, there is enormous 54 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:04,040 confusion about what free speech means in the 1st place. 55 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:10,840 And whether or not something that, as Mike suggests, refers 56 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:15,200 to controversial or sensitive topics like events in Southport 57 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:19,720 last year. Whether free speech is somehow 58 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:25,360 bashed over the head by what's been described sort of loosely 59 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:28,920 and deliberately loosely as as hate speech. 60 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:33,720 And whether there's a way in which people can be led to 61 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:37,680 believe that there are certain things that just cannot be said. 62 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:44,160 And that is in a sense how the government are convincing the 63 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:47,480 masses that wielding the various pieces of legislation that they 64 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:51,120 have at their disposal can be done in a legitimate sense, 65 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:54,480 because people are already predisposed against much of the 66 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:58,840 language that people are putting out and then subsequently being 67 00:04:59,920 --> 00:05:04,440 pursued by means of the criminal justice system for posting in 68 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:06,760 the 1st place. So as with all these sorts of 69 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:13,040 campaigns, the, the scent that's laid in the in the lead up to 70 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:18,600 this is now paying dividends. And, and I'm sure there are, 71 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:21,640 there are many other ways in which that could be articulated, 72 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:24,760 but I think it really does have to be noted that there is 73 00:05:25,400 --> 00:05:30,880 confusion about what it means and the and the public response 74 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:34,200 to certain things now is, is knee jerk. 75 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:37,040 You know, the sort of, you just can't say that. 76 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:40,480 Well, why? Or rather, why not? 77 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:46,600 What they said was that, well, what Well, the person who the 78 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:50,200 person who died, and I'm ashamed to say I can't remember off the 79 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:53,320 top of my head, his name, he was a grat, sorry. 80 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:55,840 Peter Lynch. Peter Lynch Thank you very much, 81 00:05:55,840 --> 00:06:00,200 Charles Right, right. So, so he a grandfather who 82 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:05,720 decided to come out on the streets following Southport 83 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:12,320 stabbings and he was carrying a placard, which I can't remember 84 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:14,760 exactly what it said, but something along the lines of the 85 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:17,520 police are corrupt, something like this. 86 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:21,560 He he he was not violent in any way. 87 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:27,680 He was not carrying out any sort of he wasn't assaulting anybody, 88 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:29,880 he wasn't throwing stones, he wasn't trying to set fire to 89 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:31,880 anything. He was just carrying a placard 90 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:36,080 which some people found was not acceptable. 91 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:38,480 And by some people I mean the police because they arrested 92 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:41,520 them. But he, amongst a host of 93 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:48,360 others, were prosecuted and ended up in prison. 94 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:52,680 And it was the most disgraceful miscarriage of justice because 95 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:57,480 in the sense that the the prison sentences that were handed out 96 00:06:57,480 --> 00:06:59,600 to the people. There were other people involved 97 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:04,320 in this who had posted comments on, on social media, which may 98 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:08,640 have been wrong, accusing the the person who committed the 99 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:11,800 stabbings of being, you know, the implication was he was an 100 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:15,480 immigrant that that was, had just come into the country and, 101 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:19,040 and this had stirred up all kinds of I'll feeling in the 102 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:24,600 community and so on. The point is that that nothing 103 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:29,280 terribly horrible happened as a result of people coming out and 104 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:36,520 demonstrating because this was the first sort of major public 105 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:40,520 expression of the of the issue, the issues arising from 106 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:44,520 immigration and so on. A whole host of people ended up 107 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:47,960 in prison for that with with really pretty unpleasant 108 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:51,960 duration prison sentences for for simply posting something to 109 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:55,600 social media or carrying a placard at a protest. 110 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:59,200 And this is really unjustifiable. 111 00:07:59,960 --> 00:08:03,920 But but, you know, this is this is just the latest sort of 112 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:10,560 iteration of the chilling effect on freedom of speech over the 113 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:12,360 last. Well, I mean, it's taken, it's 114 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:14,760 taken the British government a long time to get the online 115 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:18,440 safety legislation going. But now that it's started to get 116 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:22,720 going, you know, we are seeing what what they what they're 117 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:30,000 effectively doing is forcing the platforms to become government 118 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:35,080 censors. That's on one hand, they're 119 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:38,640 doing it under the guise of child safety because that's how 120 00:08:38,679 --> 00:08:40,320 they're trying to sell it to the public. 121 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:46,520 But and as a result, we're seeing more and more 122 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:54,440 international platforms leaving the UK in total so that the so 123 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:56,280 that they're not falling under this regime. 124 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:01,520 We're seeing narratives in the press starting to come along 125 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:05,760 that the use of VPNs is increasing exponentially because 126 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:09,240 of the age assurance requirements as part of the 127 00:09:09,680 --> 00:09:14,560 Online Safety Act. And of course, this is something 128 00:09:14,560 --> 00:09:18,320 that the British government has been wanting to shut down for a 129 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:20,800 long time. So now what's what we're going 130 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:23,840 to see, I guarantee, is that we're going to see the idea of 131 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:32,160 using encrypted Internet use, using VPNs demonised in the 132 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:35,120 media as being something that paedophiles do. 133 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:39,520 And that in order to protect children, we've got to ban VPN 134 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:43,800 news in the UKI mean, the Chinese don't even ban VPN news, 135 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:45,920 but I guarantee that's what's coming. 136 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:49,000 The British government has been working very, very hard to try 137 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:54,040 to ban end to end encryption in chat applications, whether that 138 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:58,720 be WhatsApp or whatever, they're also working or Signal. 139 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:02,840 They're also working very hard. As you may know, they, they took 140 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:06,840 Apple, they decided that Apple had to remove end to end 141 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:10,760 encryption from their cloud storage platform, which Apple 142 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:12,680 challenged and is still challenging. 143 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:18,600 And so you've taking all these things as a whole, We have 144 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:23,120 really a very draconian totalitarian regime building up. 145 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:25,840 And the thing about the Online Safety Act, for example, is that 146 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:29,200 it's, it's so multifaceted. There's so many aspects to it. 147 00:10:29,560 --> 00:10:34,240 So we're only really beginning to see the implications of it as 148 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:37,240 it starts to be rolled out. So although that legislation 149 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:42,280 became received royal assent a couple of years ago, it's taken 150 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:46,040 Ofcom this amount of time to get to the point of starting to roll 151 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:51,160 out the actual framework. So we've we've seen the the age 152 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:54,800 assurance framework start to be rolled out now. 153 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:59,320 And as a result we're starting to see not only as is being 154 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:02,880 presented in the mainstream media, pornography websites 155 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:05,920 using it, but we're starting to see the likes of Blue Sky, 156 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:11,240 Twitter, Reddit, all the major platforms starting to use so 157 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:14,560 called digital ID age assurance services. 158 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:17,200 And The thing is, they're use it, They're all using different 159 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:20,320 age assurance services. So that means if you are using 160 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:23,680 Reddit and you are using Blue sky and you are using Twitter, 161 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:27,360 then some functionality is going to require you to to, to 162 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:32,400 formally identify yourself with with these third party 163 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:34,040 companies. And each one, each one of these 164 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:36,160 platforms is using a different third party company. 165 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:41,640 And that in itself is going to put people off from using those 166 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:45,440 particular functions on on those particular platforms, which is 167 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:49,320 going to therefore in itself have a chilling effect on the 168 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:51,960 transfer of information between individuals. 169 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:55,600 So for example, in Blue Sky, they're requiring that you 170 00:11:56,040 --> 00:12:00,760 identify or prove your age through a digital ID system. 171 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:05,920 I can't remember the name of it off the top of my head, but that 172 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:09,040 would be in order to, to use the direct messaging functionality. 173 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:12,960 So you can't even make a direct message between two people 174 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:16,360 without first proving your identity. 175 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:20,000 And so it's going to be increasingly hard to use the 176 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:23,520 Internet anonymously. And that in itself is also going 177 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:25,760 to have a chilling effect on freedom of speech. 178 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:30,960 So each of these aspects has a direct, real effect on people's 179 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:33,480 willingness to speak out. Yeah. 180 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:36,760 I mean, when you spoke now about the, the, the gentleman who was 181 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:39,240 gaoled, that's a, that's obviously a micro, a micro 182 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:42,080 issue. But it's a very big issue 183 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:44,480 because he committed suicide in prison, right? 184 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:47,320 He should have been in prison in the 1st place and he died there. 185 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:51,600 So, so you know that that that's, it's, it's not it's, but 186 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:54,200 he's only one of, of a, you know, hundreds. 187 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:57,520 That's my point, yeah. So what? 188 00:12:57,520 --> 00:12:58,200 Yeah. So what else? 189 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:01,600 What I was actually alluding to is the macro, the the, the 190 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:04,120 trajectory. What actually is the British 191 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:08,320 government trying to do? There well it's clear they they 192 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:14,880 are trying to suppress all opposition, all resistance and 193 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:18,840 they are but it's not just them it's it's a whole. 194 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:23,320 I mean we've we use the term censorship industrial complex or 195 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:26,600 or disinformation industrial complex is term disinformation 196 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:29,960 that's used to describe anything which is counter narrative. 197 00:13:31,680 --> 00:13:35,160 The the intention is to shut that down absolutely. 198 00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:39,680 And the intention is to, to bring us to a point where the 199 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:45,200 only trustworthy sources that anybody is able to listen to are 200 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:51,600 the BBC and other formal mainstream media organisations. 201 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:57,880 And that anything else is not only untrustworthy, but it, you 202 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:02,480 know, anybody using platforms to to express a view or an opinion 203 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:07,440 which disagrees with with the official narrative could go to 204 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:09,800 prison. Yes, absolutely. 205 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:14,640 This is going in the direction of being able to crush or 206 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:18,880 eliminate any form of dissent. But but as well as that or as 207 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:23,280 part of the same package. This is very much designed to 208 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:27,320 force people into accepting all the things that he's just been 209 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:32,920 talking about and that that digital control system is is 210 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:37,760 absolutely enmeshed with all of this, whether it be digital 211 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:42,200 identity, in order to verify that you are who you say you are 212 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:45,080 in terms of being able to access these services and this that and 213 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:48,760 the other. And that that should be seen as 214 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:51,000 as part of the same thing. Because of course, once people 215 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:55,920 are rather if they are controlled by such a system, 216 00:14:55,920 --> 00:15:00,240 then the whole thing is so much easier to run and monitor. 217 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:05,160 So that's part of it. And I think also, as I say, that 218 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:10,920 I think people would do well to consider how the obverse 219 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:15,680 situation can be made or turned to people's advantage. 220 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:18,760 And I've, I know I've spoken about this before in a sort of 221 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:23,840 asymmetric warfare context. But of course, if you are a 222 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:29,880 dissenting voice and you are choosing to engage in activities 223 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:33,640 that don't have a digital signature, then people aren't 224 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:37,840 monitoring that in the same way. The the the sole focus now is on 225 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:41,560 Internet, digital enabled, digitally enabled 226 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:43,200 communications. And therefore there's very 227 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:46,920 little effort going into monitoring people who are doing 228 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:51,360 stuff in a traditional pencil and paper or face to face 229 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:54,080 fashion. That's worth mentioning for a 230 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:56,120 couple of reasons. First of all, because you can 231 00:15:56,320 --> 00:16:00,240 step outside of the surveillance network. 232 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:04,520 And also secondly, because my perhaps rather crass analogy of 233 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:10,720 the way in which concepts or constructs such as intent and 234 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:15,920 recklessness and responsibility are being dealt with on on the 235 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:18,600 various points of law is so significant. 236 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:22,920 Because with particular regard to say, user to user content and 237 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:26,520 that being the responsibility of the platform that hosts it. 238 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:31,720 The real world analogy that I would put out there is that this 239 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:36,400 is like telling pub landlords that they must surveil and 240 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:41,000 monitor and deal with all conversations that take place 241 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:43,480 under their roof during opening hours. 242 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:47,360 Now that's patently ridiculous and no one would ever suggest 243 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:50,280 that. And yet in in an online sense, 244 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:52,000 this is exactly what's being done. 245 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:56,160 So the way in which this is being dealt with from a 246 00:16:56,600 --> 00:17:00,280 legislative point of view is, and I know I don't mean this to 247 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:04,960 sound like a whinge, but it is objectively unfair and therefore 248 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:08,079 ridiculous in terms of the language that's being used. 249 00:17:08,079 --> 00:17:11,800 What I would say is an examination of history is it is 250 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:15,280 always worth doing because it yields such interesting results. 251 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:18,480 And if you look at the definition of extremism as it 252 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:24,839 was updated in, I think May 2024 by Michael Gove, the wording is 253 00:17:24,839 --> 00:17:28,680 not the same, but very, very close to the wording that was 254 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:34,880 used to eliminate or crush dissent by the Criminal Code of 255 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:38,040 the Soviet Socialist Republic in 1924. 256 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:43,160 And that is not a coincidence. So those things are important to 257 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:47,520 note and we'll come on to the to the intent and whatnot. 258 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:50,840 And the other thing I want to do just at this point is just to 259 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:56,240 give a perfect illustration of the way in which these things 260 00:17:56,240 --> 00:18:01,160 are done in terms of their selling points to the public. 261 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:05,440 Now, I don't live in Plymouth and, and stay down here when I 262 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,240 do, which means I have rare access to a television set. 263 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:11,880 And I saw a programme which is on every day, I think it's 264 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:15,560 called Good Morning Britain and it's on ITV, our third channel. 265 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,600 And there's AI mean first of all, it's it's remarkable. 266 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:21,840 One of the presenters, A chap called Ed Balls, who was a 267 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:25,600 government, Labour government minister and he is married to 268 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:27,840 the current home Secretary, Yvette Cooper. 269 00:18:28,360 --> 00:18:32,320 So straight away one would think there's a there's an enormous 270 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:35,080 issue there. Anyway, on the programme I've 271 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:38,360 just watched, there was a discussion around online 272 00:18:38,360 --> 00:18:42,200 gambling. And online gambling as it stands 273 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:47,880 is the main reason that people choose to procure a digital 274 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:50,240 identity, it is to be able to gamble online. 275 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:53,760 So that's one rather remarkable detail, but statistically 276 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:56,800 absolutely true, far outstrips any other reason that people 277 00:18:56,800 --> 00:19:01,640 apply for digital identity. Now they were talking on the 278 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:04,400 programme about online gambling being a problem. 279 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:08,720 People agree a lot of head nodding and this that and the 280 00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:11,840 other and well yes, but you know, they're able to get round 281 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:13,880 it by using VPNs and this, that and the other. 282 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:16,520 And So what you do is you're predicted exactly the same way 283 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:19,840 in which the protection of children is being put out there 284 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:22,440 as the catch all for everything else. 285 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:24,800 But but that's what they're using for the online safety 286 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:28,280 thing to to eliminate people being able to use VPNs. 287 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:32,120 For example, one only needs site a problem like online gambling. 288 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:33,880 And you say, right, well, there's on that. 289 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:36,960 Let's get our sledgehammer. No more VPNs or whatever it is. 290 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:39,800 And and of course, I go back to the fact that this is being a 291 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:43,560 conversation that is being curated by Ed Balls, the husband 292 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:46,960 of the current home secretary. So it's very easy to see how 293 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:50,800 these things are sold to the public, both through the 294 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:55,960 mainstream media outlets and indeed parliament or government, 295 00:19:56,320 --> 00:20:00,440 which frankly shouldn't be happening like that, as is 296 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:02,440 patently obvious. And yet I think he's been 297 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:04,160 presenting on that programme for some time now. 298 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:06,560 Remarkable. But yes, sorry to go back to 299 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:12,760 the, to the legislation on the, the terrorism side of it. 300 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:17,400 There are. Several ways in which this can 301 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:21,520 be manipulated but but in terms of free speech, that the part 302 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:24,840 that's been exploited in particular over the last two 303 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:29,200 years is anything that pertains to what's described as a 304 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:32,960 prescribed organisation. And that means an organisation 305 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:35,400 that's been prescribed by the Home Secretary within the UK. 306 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:37,480 Because obviously there are other countries that do do this, 307 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:42,200 but it's specific to the UK and an organisation prescribed is 308 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:46,800 one that is deemed to have fallen into a category where it 309 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:49,680 presents a threat that may be described as terrorist within 310 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:53,680 the UK. Now that is incredibly open to 311 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:57,680 abuse and has been abused many, many times over the years. 312 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:02,360 And one might say that the entire list really is something 313 00:21:02,360 --> 00:21:05,840 of a fiction. Just to articulate what I mean 314 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:10,320 in terms of its potential absurdity, last year there was 315 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:16,960 an organisation prescribed with the name or the given name of 316 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:22,640 Teragram. Now no such organisation exists. 317 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:24,600 There is absolutely no evidence of that. 318 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:27,760 But what was perfectly obvious was that it was designed to 319 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:34,120 sound like Telegram, the social media app which was started by 320 00:21:34,120 --> 00:21:39,760 Russian Pavel Durov and is widely reported by the BBC as 321 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:44,120 being a, a, an end to end encrypted site for conspiracy 322 00:21:44,120 --> 00:21:45,840 theory. But basically the point was that 323 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:49,240 that the use of Telegram is absolutely synonymous with 324 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:51,400 people who are up to no good. They are probably right wing 325 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:53,360 extremists, which means they're probably terrorists. 326 00:21:53,360 --> 00:21:54,720 And that's sort of how that's done. 327 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:59,480 And therefore, by creating an idea that there was a collective 328 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:02,040 out there called Teragram and that you were going to 329 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:06,480 prescribe, it meant that it was very obvious that if you were 330 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:09,880 considering straying away from the BBC and starting to look at 331 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:12,920 things like Telegram, you were definitely going down the wrong 332 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:16,440 track. So that's a, that's an aside on 333 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:17,840 the prescribed organisation thing. 334 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:22,320 But but this is where we get into the the most remarkable 335 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:27,520 cherry picking exercise because in sections 1, sections section 336 00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:30,440 12 and 13 of the Terrorism Act 2000. 337 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:35,840 Probably not time to go into the specifics of the ACT itself or 338 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:39,640 or from whence it came, which of course is fascinating, as is the 339 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:45,960 more recent iteration 2006 Act. But the point is that once an 340 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:50,760 organisation is prescribed, it then becomes a sanctionable 341 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:54,200 offence to support it. There are lots of different ways 342 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:57,480 in which the terminology is used, but basically to support 343 00:22:57,480 --> 00:22:59,760 or act to the benefit of that organisation. 344 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:02,120 And that doesn't have to mean that you give it money or you 345 00:23:02,120 --> 00:23:04,120 necessarily go along and actually chip in. 346 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:07,880 But that can be going back to the where we started with free 347 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:12,080 speech. That can simply be a declaration 348 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:17,240 of support for such and such an organisation or as has been the 349 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:22,000 case in the last two years, choosing words that are then 350 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:26,560 reverse engineered by police in order to hand to the Crime 351 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:31,640 Prosecution Service to suggest that there is within that 352 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:37,000 collection of words and inherent support of a prescribed 353 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:37,920 organisation. And the. 354 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:42,960 The example that we use a lot on the UK, well actually 2 examples 355 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:45,640 that we use a lot on on UK column and I've cited certainly 356 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:52,280 a lot on the news, is that when the administration in Syria 357 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:57,520 changed and Jelani became the president of Syria as a 358 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:01,680 terrorist by virtue of the fact that he was the leader of HTS, 359 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:05,960 widely acknowledged and written down in Home Office prescription 360 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:12,480 lists as a subset of Al Qaeda. He was therefore the head of a 361 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:14,440 terrorist, a prescribed organisation. 362 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:19,040 And yet when the BBC through Jeremy Bowen went to talk to him 363 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:24,720 and very much offer the idea that he should be supported in 364 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:29,160 what he was doing rather than a critique of who he was and where 365 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:35,040 he came from, nothing was done. By the same token, Alistair 366 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:40,120 Campbell, former in a member of the inner circle of of Tony 367 00:24:40,120 --> 00:24:44,480 Blair and obviously, you know, long standing influencer within 368 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:49,040 the Labor Party and Rory Stewart, the former MP and 369 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:52,120 soldier and probably one or two other things. 370 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:57,840 He and Campbell went to Syria to meet Jelani to do a podcast for 371 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:01,680 their show called The Rest is Politics, which has a a large 372 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:03,440 audience. And they made absolutely no 373 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:07,320 secret of the fact that they were absolutely supporting this 374 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:12,120 man in his new or latest incarnation. 375 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:16,240 That is that by the letter of the law, the Terrorism Act 2000. 376 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:19,840 That that is there is no doubt that is in contravention of both 377 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:23,480 sections 1 and section 12 of the Terrorism Act. 378 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,760 And yet nothing was done. This was this was broadcast 379 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:31,960 absolutely all over the shop. But, but we see a, a long well, 380 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:38,440 an increasing list of people who have done acts that do not meet 381 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:43,720 that threshold being pulled to one side under the very much 382 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:47,600 nebulous schedules that are attached to the end of the 383 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:51,280 Terrorism Act 2000. And just to give a flavour of of 384 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:57,000 how that works, under Schedule 7, which applies at at ports, 385 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:01,120 you can be taken out of a queue whether you're coming or going 386 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:05,520 at, at an airport in the UK and you can be interrogated at all. 387 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:08,240 Well, the the phrase is detained and then examined. 388 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:11,640 You can have any of your communications kit examined and 389 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:17,920 you do not have a right to silence so that this is This is 390 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:24,360 a hardball approach to a problem that is in effect simply 391 00:26:24,360 --> 00:26:30,040 confected by by deciding that your words mean something. 392 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:35,240 The, the, the gloves come off and people have absolutely no 393 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:37,440 recourse. And yes, as I say on on the 394 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,440 other side, the enormous inconsistency is that when it is 395 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:44,920 totally blatant, when there is absolutely support for or 396 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:48,040 actions that are to the benefit of a prescribed organisation 397 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:52,240 like HDSA subset of Al Qaeda, nothing is done because of the 398 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:54,720 people that are conducting that exercise. 399 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:57,360 And, and this absolutely goes to the heart of free speech. 400 00:26:57,360 --> 00:27:00,240 And it also, I won't, I won't bang on, but this also links 401 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:05,640 directly to the provisions of the Public Order Act 1986 and 402 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:10,840 the question of intent and indeed how men's Rea and the and 403 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:15,560 the actors Reyes, which should be be side by side in terms of 404 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:19,120 commissioning of an offence are are not dealt with in a fair 405 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:22,200 fashion. How do you push back? 406 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:28,640 You keep talking, and with that, stop talking. 407 00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:31,120 No, no, you do no. Well, I thought you were going 408 00:27:31,120 --> 00:27:32,680 to go on and talk about well, because I mean, you know, we 409 00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:34,760 again, we've had a couple of examples the the recent 410 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:39,480 prescription in this in this country has been Palestine 411 00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:44,160 action, OK, people will say what they like about Palestine 412 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:46,720 action. The idea that it is, you know, 413 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:49,320 whether or not it's organic, whether it's this another, to be 414 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:52,600 perfectly honest that that is, is to a certain extent beside 415 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:56,320 the point because specifically the activities they've been 416 00:27:56,320 --> 00:28:01,600 engaged in, which are, well, those that may have a criminal 417 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:03,680 sanction attached to them, are criminal damage. 418 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,880 Now, criminal damage exists in a couple of different ways as a 419 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:10,880 standalone offence, but you go to look at the Terrorism Act 420 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:17,880 2000 and in Section 1, serious criminal damage is amazingly A 421 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:21,160 qualifying characteristic for the definition of terrorism. 422 00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:24,160 So it just goes to show how when this legislation is drawn up, it 423 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,560 is very, very obviously done. So in a way that means if you 424 00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:32,320 want to throw the net over anybody for anything, you pretty 425 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:36,000 much can. And when you look at just off 426 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:38,960 oil Extinction Rebellion, all these little guys in their high 427 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,280 vis vests who've been running around the place causing 428 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:44,680 criminal damage on a much wider scale for a much longer period 429 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,960 of time. And yet having case after case 430 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,400 overturned because they're so well meaning. 431 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,040 And yet when it comes to Palestine action who are saying 432 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:56,400 that they're trying to prevent genocide, then there is 433 00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,280 obviously an enormous inconsistency in the the the 434 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:04,520 particular act that tipped balance in so far as they were 435 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:08,120 then prescribed, was to pour red paint on 2 aircraft at Bryce 436 00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:13,800 Norton and that is it. I, I think Jeremy, I'd like to 437 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,680 just briefly, if I can just talk a little bit about the 438 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,440 mainstream media and what's happened with it over the last 439 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:25,280 20 years. Because the mainstream media, I 440 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:30,840 suppose up until the Leveson inquiry was doing a relatively 441 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:35,040 good job relatively. It wasn't perfect by any means. 442 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:41,480 It was but but there was still some effort to hold politics to 443 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:48,400 account to some degree, to to a sufficient degree that certainly 444 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:53,440 the the wrongdoing of of certain journalists was used as a 445 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:57,000 mechanism for bringing in what was called the Leveson Inquiry, 446 00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:01,960 which is headed up by Brian Leveson, a a judge. 447 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,760 And I suppose this was the first sort of major attempt by the 448 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:10,160 British government to get control of the narrative. 449 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,680 And similarly to, to what Charles has just been talking 450 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:18,640 about with Palestine action. And the fact that there there 451 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:21,040 already is, was, you know, if they wanted to prosecute people 452 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:24,840 for spray painting aircraft, that was the, the, the 453 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:26,880 legislation's already for, for that. 454 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,640 It's already there for that. They didn't need to create a new 455 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,520 legislation or use any, they didn't actually need to use 456 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:38,160 terrorism legislation for this. But, you know, one of the, the 457 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:42,400 things that was very striking about the Leveson Inquiry and, 458 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:46,520 and the freedom of the press, this is back in 2012 or 2013, 459 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:51,600 whenever it was, was that, you know, the legislation, 460 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:54,360 everything, all, the, all the wrongdoing that was done in, in 461 00:30:54,360 --> 00:31:00,680 the phone hacking scandal, for example, was already illegal and 462 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:04,320 could have been prosecuted without the need for some kind 463 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:09,080 of big inquiry into how the press was going to be regulated 464 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:12,000 from that point forward. This was the first attempt to 465 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:15,560 sort of get, you know, and that failed And, and hopefully the UK 466 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:19,240 column had a fairly major part to play in, in, in how that 467 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:24,400 failed. And then, but nonetheless, 468 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:29,240 although the the inquiry failed and the the sort of regulatory 469 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:32,120 regime that they were intending to impose afterwards failed, 470 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:36,840 what was what didn't fail so much was that over the next 471 00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:41,160 several years we start definitely started to see more 472 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:45,960 editorial compliance with government desires, let's put it 473 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:51,040 that way. And as a result, people started 474 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:54,600 in relatively small numbers, but enough sufficient people started 475 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:58,040 moving away from the mainstream press that it was starting to 476 00:31:58,040 --> 00:31:59,960 have a financial implication on them. 477 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:06,120 At the same time, the rise of Internet advertising, or the 478 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:11,240 replacement of Internet advertising over traditional 479 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:17,200 print advertising was starting to have a financial effect on 480 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,880 the mainstream press as well. So the mainstream press from 481 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:26,080 2014 to let's say 2020, we're starting to be increasingly 482 00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:31,880 under financial pressure, partly, as I say, because of 483 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:34,520 advertising, partly because the editorial policy seemed to be 484 00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:37,200 becoming more compliant with government desires. 485 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:46,280 And then 20/17/2018 or so, the British government was getting 486 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:52,080 sufficiently worried about the, the financial viability of the 487 00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:56,320 mainstream media that they ran a review into the how they would, 488 00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:59,280 how they could underpin the mainstream press. 489 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:01,320 And that was called the Karen Cross review. 490 00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:06,520 And then COVID hit an inverted commas. 491 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:12,720 And before we knew it, the press was getting bailed out by these 492 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:15,960 massive advertising budgets that the British government was 493 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:19,120 pursuing in order to convince people that they needed to wear 494 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:21,160 masks and, and stay in their homes. 495 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,120 And from that point forward, really that was the, the, the 496 00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:28,920 death knell of any idea of a fourth estate that actually held 497 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:32,320 or was there to provide any accountability for what 498 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:37,200 government did, because effectively mainstream press was 499 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,120 bought and paid for by the state from from then on. 500 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:47,240 And that's still the case today. So we have the totally compliant 501 00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:52,960 mainstream media that is in no way highlighting any of the 502 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:54,560 issues that we're talking about today. 503 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:59,840 They're not holding government to account in any way for, for 504 00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:07,600 what they are doing to, to, to, to minimise dissent that that's 505 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:11,159 on one side. On the other side, you know, I'm 506 00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:13,960 visiting my mum in Northern Ireland at the moment. 507 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:18,280 We were speaking to a bunch of the neighbours here last night 508 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:21,400 and none of them is watching the BBC anymore. 509 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:25,320 And these are just ordinary farming people. 510 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:29,600 They're not, they're not watching the BBC anymore. 511 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:32,840 They're they're barely watching GB News anymore. 512 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:38,040 They're certainly looking to alternative media for their or 513 00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:40,639 social media for the information that they had that they're 514 00:34:40,639 --> 00:34:42,600 getting. And I just thought that was a 515 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:48,199 really interesting sort of just just a little data point because 516 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:51,040 you know, although these are just, this is just a very small 517 00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:55,080 farming community in this area spread out of over quite a right 518 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:57,840 wide area. It's it's indicative perhaps of 519 00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:01,480 what's going on in the country. So, so it's, it's fascinating to 520 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:07,720 me that that as we start to see these more draconian efforts to 521 00:35:07,720 --> 00:35:11,840 shut down freedom of speech, as as government attempts to force 522 00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:16,000 people into the arms of mainstream press, a controlled 523 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:21,080 mainstream press, it, it simply doesn't work because there, 524 00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:24,040 there is a clear recognition in people that that it is a 525 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:26,480 controlled mainstream press and they're just rejecting it. 526 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:33,080 The, the, the danger is that as this effort to, to shut down 527 00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:35,040 freedom of speech gains momentum. 528 00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:37,000 And as I say, we're really only at the beginning of this 529 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:41,000 process, as draconian as it is already, it's just the 530 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:44,080 beginning. And as that starts to to be 531 00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:48,720 rolled out over the next two or three years, most people, if 532 00:35:48,720 --> 00:35:52,800 they're not already aware of the UK column or 21st Century Wire 533 00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:56,440 or or the the other alternative media outlets that are out 534 00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,480 there, if they're not already aware of those, are going to 535 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:03,880 find it very difficult, if not impossible to find those voices. 536 00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:09,760 That's our challenge. But you know that that that is 537 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:12,480 our challenge over the next two or three years is how we 538 00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:16,160 overcome what we've already seen in terms of the censorship 539 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:19,680 regime and shadow banning and all the usual things that we 540 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:24,040 talk about and are aware of. We've got that plus these new 541 00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:25,480 regimes that are being rolled out. 542 00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:28,160 So, so that's that's going to be our main challenge over the next 543 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:30,160 period of time. And we're going to need the help 544 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:35,320 of the people that are ready supporting us to overcome those 545 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:39,360 very severe limitations that are being placed on us. 546 00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:44,080 Earlier I asked how you push back and what your response was 547 00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:46,000 Keep talking. But the problem with keep 548 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:49,480 talking is that you just shadow band like on X for example. 549 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:52,400 You can keep talking, but you have no reach. 550 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:57,440 And that was already acknowledged by the CEO. 551 00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:00,640 I forget her name now. What Freedom. 552 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:03,480 What? Yeah, Linda, Linda Yacarino, she 553 00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:06,000 said. There'll be freedom of speech, 554 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:11,200 but not freedom of reach and. That's a great, great example of 555 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:13,120 the chair. And I'm not blaming you for this 556 00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:16,120 because we've no evidence that it's your fault, but we were 557 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:19,720 just Kenny. Kenny was it could be your 558 00:37:19,720 --> 00:37:22,440 fault. Kenny was just pulling together 559 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:29,200 statistics on, on viewer slash listener numbers the other day 560 00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:34,400 and he showed me the, the spreadsheet and, and SoundCloud, 561 00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:39,520 which is the, where we host our, you know, our audio only content 562 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:46,280 and sort of audio rips of the news programme and so on, was 563 00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:48,960 only showing 24 views for a news programme. 564 00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:52,720 And I'm thinking, no, no, that's wrong because it's usually, it's 565 00:37:52,720 --> 00:37:56,880 usually thousands, right? And, and so I went back through, 566 00:37:57,080 --> 00:38:01,680 I went back through all the postings on SoundCloud and the 567 00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:07,560 day you started germ warfare on the UK column was the day that 568 00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:11,400 the numbers fell from thousands to none, right? 569 00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:19,080 So, so coincidence. I don't know what to make of 570 00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:28,240 that. I apologise if that was me, but 571 00:38:28,240 --> 00:38:34,880 I mean, but look, so I mean, one of the one of the obvious 572 00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:39,200 solutions here is other than to keep talking, which obviously is 573 00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:45,160 it's a, it's a truism is the idea of the parallel structures. 574 00:38:45,720 --> 00:38:49,800 No, no, no, no, because, because parallel structures are written 575 00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:51,520 into the definition of extremism. 576 00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:54,680 That is extremist. You may not create a parallel 577 00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:56,760 structure, no, but that's what look Jeremy, that's what 578 00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,240 alternative media is. It's a parallel structure. 579 00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:05,440 We are to a certain degree attempting to the UK column at 580 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:11,280 least is attempting to be in, in, in its presentation style as 581 00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:14,640 mainstream like as possible. What we're attempting to do is 582 00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:20,400 to make ourselves as familiar a format to people as possible so 583 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:24,080 that it's as easy as possible to for them to move across from the 584 00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:26,760 BBC or Channel 4 News to UK column news. 585 00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:31,280 That would, that would be that, that would be, you know, our 586 00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:36,000 attempt to sort of be as as familiar as possible to, to the 587 00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:38,320 average person in the street. This is something that that 588 00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:42,440 actually a lot of people don't quite understand, but it's 589 00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:45,240 something that we that we feel that that is important to help 590 00:39:45,240 --> 00:39:51,240 people get from that mainstream news, those mainstream news 591 00:39:51,240 --> 00:39:55,040 sources into other mainstream news sources. 592 00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:59,760 So, you know, you might describe us as a gateway drug that I'm 593 00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:02,040 quite happy to, to describe us that way. 594 00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:05,760 Because, because if we can help people make that transition and 595 00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:08,880 say to people, look, there's other information out there. 596 00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:12,120 Now we might not be presenting all of that other information, 597 00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:16,480 but there are people out there presenting other information. 598 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:20,320 And and so we, what we hope is that we can encourage people 599 00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:27,880 into a broader information base than they have at the moment. 600 00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:30,840 And the way, you know, we just feel that the way, that one way 601 00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:34,600 to do that is to, is to be as familiar as possible in terms of 602 00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:40,480 the formats that we provide. But sorry, I've completely 603 00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:41,280 forgotten what. Oh yes. 604 00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:47,000 But, but look, I, I'm not quite, maybe quite so pessimistic as, 605 00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:50,680 as you're suggesting we need to be on, on this because just just 606 00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:55,960 one example, you know, as cynical as people are about 607 00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:59,040 petitions and so on, and people are right to be cynical about 608 00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:01,720 petitions. They, they, they are in and of 609 00:41:01,720 --> 00:41:06,640 themselves utterly useless. But there is a petition running 610 00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:09,880 at the moment, which is to repeal the Online Safety Act. 611 00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:13,080 And I'm not sure what the current figure is, but it's 612 00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:16,160 something around half a million people have signed that already 613 00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:23,600 and it's got another couple of months to run now as, as a, as 614 00:41:23,720 --> 00:41:27,840 a, if you take the, the, the range of petitions that are ever 615 00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:30,080 posted to the government petitions website, that is a 616 00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:33,760 spectacular response from people. 617 00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:38,320 So there, there is a broad recognition of how dangerous 618 00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:42,440 this legislation is and people are pushing back against it. 619 00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:48,760 And so, you know, the, the, the issues around shadow banning 620 00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:54,280 and, and the lack of freedom of reach, these are, I think, much 621 00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:57,960 better understood in the general population than maybe we think. 622 00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:06,040 And I think that, you know, the more government is determined to 623 00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:11,920 try to put the squeeze on, on voices, the more ordinary people 624 00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:13,920 are going to turn around and say, no, this isn't right. 625 00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:17,880 And they they will at the end of the day, be be willing to to 626 00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:25,160 share and to tell people about voices that are providing other 627 00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:29,960 narratives. Yeah, I think yeah, no, I was 628 00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:33,320 just going to add a sort of, you know, real world example of we, 629 00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:35,840 we talk about things being barometers. 630 00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:38,200 I would absolutely agree. I think petitions, whilst they 631 00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:40,560 get cast into the bin by government, they are an 632 00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:44,280 excellent barometer because they enable people on the outside to 633 00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:47,320 look in and think, right, OK, I, I'm not the only one. 634 00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:51,480 I do see the problem here. And, and, you know, we've got to 635 00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:54,040 keep pushing on this. Whereas if there's nothing. 636 00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:57,040 And this was, you know, we go back to the, the last five years 637 00:42:57,040 --> 00:43:01,480 when everything was shut down in the name of whatever it was 638 00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:04,640 public health and, and, and people were made to feel they 639 00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:07,360 were on their own. But a petition, it has to be 640 00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:12,240 viewed in the context within which, you know, we want to own 641 00:43:12,240 --> 00:43:15,360 it, which is that, that, that's a, that is a marker and that's 642 00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:19,440 how it should be considered. But what I was going to say was 643 00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:22,560 that sometimes with the, you know, like the SoundCloud 644 00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:26,760 example, it can be very difficult to try to look at 645 00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:29,000 figures and think, right, well, what does any of this mean? 646 00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:30,800 What are people doing? What are people thinking? 647 00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:35,120 I was this week at the North Devon show, which is a big 648 00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:37,920 agricultural event in North Devon. 649 00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:41,440 It's a it's a one day. It's, I have to say it's a plug 650 00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:42,560 for the events. Fantastic. 651 00:43:42,560 --> 00:43:47,080 I mean, amazing array of, of beautiful livestock, lots of 652 00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:49,720 really interesting events and and all the rest of it. 653 00:43:49,720 --> 00:43:57,480 Now I have to admit a a bias specifically. 654 00:43:57,480 --> 00:43:59,320 Well, one of the specific reasons I went was because 655 00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:00,920 Jonathan Marshall was performing. 656 00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:06,080 Now he's somebody I interviewed for UK column, whether it was 657 00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:07,720 end of last year or, or early this year. 658 00:44:07,720 --> 00:44:10,600 I think it was it was earlier on this year, which I really 659 00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:12,880 recommend you listen to. It's the the title of the 660 00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:18,360 interview was was thinking with your heart, and he's he is he 661 00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:22,200 performs an incredible show with Falcons and a beautiful black 662 00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:24,680 stallion. Anyway, the point is that 663 00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:29,560 Jonathan, as well as having this incredible sort of love of 664 00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:32,960 nature and and a beautiful way of expressing it in his show, he 665 00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:41,120 talks about all the things that are issues are wrong in terms of 666 00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:47,320 anti human, anti nature. And yesterday the show the I I'm 667 00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:48,960 not sure how many. I mean, the Devon show is big. 668 00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:52,200 It gets it gets a lot of people there, but around his arena, 669 00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:54,200 which is relatively small, I think there are probably 1000 670 00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:57,560 people at each. He performed twice each his 671 00:44:57,560 --> 00:45:01,200 performances and when he started talking about the various issues 672 00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:06,000 that are very much pushing the agenda of destroying the 673 00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:09,960 landscape or, you know, prohibiting sort of food 674 00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:14,560 security or indeed any of the sort of woke ideology that's 675 00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:17,880 crept into policy, legislation, everything else, there was 676 00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:21,200 spontaneous applause all the way around the arena. 677 00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:26,320 And that was from OK, you could say not a complete cross section 678 00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:28,320 of society because obviously there are, you know, 679 00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:32,840 agricultural shows do pull perhaps one demographic more 680 00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:35,960 than others, but that but but the the the point is that that 681 00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:38,600 was a that was a face to face communication. 682 00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:41,400 That was a large gathering of people who quite clearly did 683 00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:45,120 hold the same views. They saw the same things. 684 00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:49,200 And yet are we going to see that reflected in our statistics on 685 00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:52,000 our social media posts or are you going to be able to identify 686 00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:53,560 that online? Probably not. 687 00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:55,760 But the point is when you go out there and you talk to people 688 00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:58,360 about it and of course, he, Jonathan, has has this amazing 689 00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:02,320 ability to perform to large audiences and put these things 690 00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:04,320 out there and see what sort of response he gets. 691 00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:06,800 And every time he does get that response. 692 00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:11,240 And OK, that that's just one isolated example, but the, the 693 00:46:11,240 --> 00:46:15,000 point is that when you do do that, it, it is quite 694 00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:18,360 astonishing to see what happens. So I go back to my earlier point 695 00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:28,400 about this, this idea that the push for the clamping down on 696 00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:30,800 free speech or whatever it is, you know, shutting down dissent 697 00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:34,880 is absolutely part of the same thing of of curating the entire 698 00:46:35,240 --> 00:46:38,720 digital infrastructure in order that people cannot do that. 699 00:46:38,720 --> 00:46:41,760 But of course, you just step to one side and you meet up with 700 00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:44,480 people face to face and it's a totally different situation. 701 00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:48,480 And so I think just because people are turning away from, 702 00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:53,280 you know, as Mike says, turning away from mainstream and perhaps 703 00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:59,240 using turning to social media, that can be more difficult to 704 00:46:59,240 --> 00:47:01,200 keep track of. But it doesn't mean that people 705 00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:05,960 aren't in actual fact either aware or indeed dissenting in 706 00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:09,720 some way, or indeed resisting. So I think we need to, we always 707 00:47:09,720 --> 00:47:13,640 need to have that in mind, despite what we're obviously 708 00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:15,840 going to be told. By and. 709 00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:19,320 The government. Yes, and the the other point of 710 00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:21,960 it just well, I've made two points here for just to finish 711 00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:26,840 the point on the petitions, Jeremy, you know, a lot of 712 00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:28,560 people are rightly cynical about petitions. 713 00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:31,680 What's the point? I think petitions are a great 714 00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:36,040 marketing tool actually, because they, they are, they can be used 715 00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:37,840 to, to introduce a topic to somebody. 716 00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:39,840 Look, this petition's here. Here's the issues. 717 00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:42,920 Let's talk about it. Maybe you'd like to sign it. 718 00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:46,040 It's a, it's a great way to, to get a conversation going. 719 00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:49,760 The, the way to, to answer your original question was what do we 720 00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:52,080 do about it? The way to deal with this is to 721 00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:56,000 talk to people and, and, and, you know, we choose to talk to 722 00:47:56,000 --> 00:48:00,080 people in an online format, but we're also talking to people in 723 00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:02,440 real physical events. Increasingly. 724 00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:05,280 We're going to the Hope Sussex festival in a couple of weeks. 725 00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:07,840 We're, we're going to, we're, we're having our own event in 726 00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:12,440 October. But you know, just again, the, 727 00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:15,360 the, the conversations that I was listening to last night, 728 00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:17,560 people are talking to each other. 729 00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:21,720 People are looking at what's going on in the world the to 730 00:48:21,720 --> 00:48:25,800 some degree finding it scary, but they're talking amongst 731 00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:28,480 themselves and they're coming to conclusions now, whatever the 732 00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:30,960 source of information that's bringing them to those 733 00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:36,280 conclusions increasingly not the mainstream, but, but they people 734 00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:40,960 aren't stupid and they're, they are absolutely coming to the to 735 00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:44,560 largely the right conclusions at the end of the day, which is 736 00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:49,480 why, you know, as as Charles is talking about there, you know, 737 00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:52,880 when these issues are, are discussed in a public forum, the 738 00:48:52,880 --> 00:48:55,560 response is generally good because actually they've already 739 00:48:55,560 --> 00:49:00,720 had conversations along these lines, whether it be in, in, you 740 00:49:00,720 --> 00:49:04,080 know, in private homes or in pubs or whatever it happens to 741 00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:07,160 be. So, you know, we just, we need 742 00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:09,880 to be, we need to be talking to each other and we need to be 743 00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:13,240 engaging with, with each other. What we don't need to be doing 744 00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:20,520 is, is, you know, going in with, you know, size 10 boots and, and 745 00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:23,120 kicking people in the head with information. 746 00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:27,040 We need to be just having conversations and, and, and 747 00:49:27,240 --> 00:49:30,240 first of all listening to what what the other side of the 748 00:49:30,240 --> 00:49:33,720 conversation is, what they're thinking and then that then 749 00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:36,040 approaching it that way, in my opinion. 750 00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:42,840 I decided to join social network Nost Noster. 751 00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:46,200 I don't know if you've pronounced it like that in OSTR 752 00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:51,520 this week, because apparently it's a decentralised alternative 753 00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:57,200 to to X and it's smooth and it's fast and it looks great and it 754 00:49:57,360 --> 00:50:02,800 seems to have a lot of people using it, but it's just really a 755 00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:04,520 bunch of nerds talking about Bitcoin. 756 00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:09,240 Now, well, look, look, Bitcoin. Crypto currencies are not a 757 00:50:09,240 --> 00:50:14,000 parallel solution. Crypto currencies are digital 758 00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:17,160 currencies and you've got to, I think people have got to start 759 00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:22,120 recognising this. If if anybody thinks that there 760 00:50:22,120 --> 00:50:26,800 is going to be a, a digital currency out there which is 761 00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:32,200 going to be able to be used anonymously and freely, they're 762 00:50:32,280 --> 00:50:35,080 they're mistaken. We're going to have to provide 763 00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:39,400 ourselves with local solutions to our local problems and using 764 00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:42,160 these big digital networks is not the answer. 765 00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:46,200 You know, the, some people are making lots of money by 766 00:50:46,240 --> 00:50:50,720 investing in Bitcoin. That's that's something quite 767 00:50:50,720 --> 00:50:53,480 different to what you're talking about. 768 00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:58,920 You know, local issues are going to be solved locally and, and 769 00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:01,760 there are no answers in that because, because we've already 770 00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:06,360 seen what Trump has done. Trump has Trump has banned the 771 00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:09,640 Federal Reserve from any further pursuit of central bank digital 772 00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:14,840 currency, but he has replaced that with his stable coin idea. 773 00:51:15,200 --> 00:51:19,160 So he is building a central bank digital currency that's outside 774 00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:21,000 of the central banks in private hands. 775 00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:25,280 And now, of course, we know that the Federal Reserve is, is, you 776 00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:29,560 know, de facto a private bank, but it has the perception of 777 00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:33,480 being, you know, publicly owned. It's not really private. 778 00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:38,160 It's not really public either. Yes, exactly. 779 00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:40,320 Right, so, so. But the point is. 780 00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:44,240 The point is, you know, if anybody thought that that that 781 00:51:44,240 --> 00:51:48,280 said that that Bitcoin or some form of cryptocurrency was going 782 00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:52,760 to be the, the, the answer to, to CDC, This is already 783 00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:55,240 demonstrated that they're not. I mean, gold isn't even the 784 00:51:55,240 --> 00:51:59,720 answer either because first of all, you can't, you can't chop 785 00:51:59,720 --> 00:52:02,880 up your gold coin and to buy your your next loaf of bread 786 00:52:02,880 --> 00:52:05,400 anyway. But you know, if you think back 787 00:52:05,400 --> 00:52:08,920 to the Second World War, what was almost the first thing that 788 00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:11,520 Roosevelt did was to ban gold. So, you know, you know, 789 00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:13,440 basically can't confiscate people's gold. 790 00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:17,000 Gold is not is not a useful thing here either. 791 00:52:17,240 --> 00:52:21,520 We've got to find local solutions to to these things, 792 00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:23,680 whether you want to call them tokens or whatever. 793 00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:28,000 But but they're the people have played with various local 794 00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:32,120 currencies in the past and I suspect that's probably where 795 00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:35,720 we're going to have to go because, you know, we're not 796 00:52:35,720 --> 00:52:40,040 going to be buying if it gets to that point, you know, we're 797 00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:45,640 we're not going to be buying things with any kind of freedom 798 00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:49,240 using any of these digital solutions. 799 00:52:51,560 --> 00:52:52,640 I I do. Know what? 800 00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:57,120 Well, look at. Look at the look at the other 801 00:52:57,480 --> 00:52:59,920 big, big sort of Nexus of, of attack. 802 00:52:59,920 --> 00:53:05,640 I mean, the only thing people really need in life is shelter, 803 00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:11,720 food and water. And in the United Kingdom, those 804 00:53:11,720 --> 00:53:17,800 three things are under attack in the strongest possible sense 805 00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:26,160 that the, I, I would say much of the, much of the protest and the 806 00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:33,360 sort of sensationalised campaigns are, I think wilfully 807 00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:38,600 to miss the point. There's been huge amounts of 808 00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:44,240 attention on the inheritance tax for farmland. 809 00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:49,320 I'm not, I, I should say very clearly because this this is a 810 00:53:49,320 --> 00:53:53,080 persistent theme here is that I will prefix something by saying 811 00:53:53,080 --> 00:53:58,000 that I'm not saying that I'm dismissing concerns around it. 812 00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:01,080 So for anyone thinking I'm dismissing concerns around it, I 813 00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:03,800 am not. But the point is that there are 814 00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:09,040 bigger and much more fundamental issues at stake. 815 00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:13,680 And also one only has to go back to 1991 when there was 816 00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:16,280 inheritance tax in exactly the same way. 817 00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:20,200 So I think for anyone to imagine that that this is sort of a new 818 00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:25,200 idea is, is, is being misled the way in which it's being done is, 819 00:54:25,320 --> 00:54:28,920 is dreadful and very cynical, especially when it's only 820 00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:35,000 reckoned to yield £500 million in a year, which is what the NHS 821 00:54:35,040 --> 00:54:40,080 would take only three days to sorry, not three days, one day. 822 00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:41,520 The NHS would spend that in a day. 823 00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:44,960 This sorry. But but to come on to the point, 824 00:54:47,200 --> 00:54:51,800 if people are producing food and water, why they're going to want 825 00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:55,640 Bitcoin in return. So if we're getting to that 826 00:54:55,640 --> 00:55:00,920 stage, then we have to be thinking about things that are 827 00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:06,120 not held by digital means, I would say. 828 00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:10,800 And I think people are forgetting the the fundamentals. 829 00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:17,720 This might be an analogy too far, but when one thinks of how 830 00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:25,840 the Roman Empire it sort of it superimposed Christianity onto 831 00:55:25,920 --> 00:55:29,800 existing belief systems and at that same time it was the 832 00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:33,280 countryside dwellers who were demonised in the that. 833 00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:37,920 That's in a way why the word Pagan has a derogatory sort of 834 00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:41,880 connotation to it. Because as always, the people in 835 00:55:41,880 --> 00:55:44,000 the countryside do actually hold the power because they are the 836 00:55:44,000 --> 00:55:47,880 people that can, they have the means to create shelter, food 837 00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:51,320 and water. And we mustn't forget how 838 00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:54,240 terribly important that is. I, I will be dealing with it in 839 00:55:54,240 --> 00:55:58,080 a, in a longer format, but I just had a letter back from the 840 00:55:59,080 --> 00:56:02,040 ministry from, from Defra about exactly this issue. 841 00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:08,200 Because I've challenged them on their relationship with three 842 00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:11,240 documents that have been published recently concerning 843 00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:16,160 what they're calling national security or resilience or 844 00:56:16,160 --> 00:56:18,800 defence or any of these things. And all these three documents 845 00:56:19,080 --> 00:56:21,560 are saying the same thing, which is that if there's a shock, 846 00:56:21,560 --> 00:56:24,240 we're not prepared for it from a food point of view. 847 00:56:24,880 --> 00:56:29,120 And OK, I don't believe that government has any business in 848 00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:31,960 farming in the 1st place, but the fact is that they do. 849 00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:37,160 And they are deliberately creating a situation where 850 00:56:37,160 --> 00:56:41,440 people are not producing food that is in any way going to be 851 00:56:41,440 --> 00:56:44,760 sufficient for a nation that needs to feed itself. 852 00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:49,440 If the wheels come off, we are totally and utterly reliant upon 853 00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:53,000 imports from elsewhere and the creation of fake food, which is 854 00:56:53,000 --> 00:56:58,520 not conducive to managing a society that's under pressure. 855 00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:04,760 So I think all the conversations around where to invest money are 856 00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:08,600 to a certain extent academic because they only deal with a 857 00:57:08,600 --> 00:57:11,280 system that is able to cope to a certain point. 858 00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:14,720 And beyond that point, it won't matter because those things, the 859 00:57:14,720 --> 00:57:17,880 way I see it, that those things simply won't exist. 860 00:57:18,000 --> 00:57:23,320 And currency will have to be in some hard form. 861 00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:26,560 And, you know, it doesn't matter whether it's gold or silver or 862 00:57:26,560 --> 00:57:33,400 whatever it is, but it will be used to buy or to have access to 863 00:57:33,440 --> 00:57:35,920 shelter, food and water. And I, I don't mean to sound 864 00:57:36,160 --> 00:57:39,480 apocalyptic about this. And and that's not where I'm 865 00:57:39,480 --> 00:57:41,000 really going with it. But the point is, I think 866 00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:44,520 there's a, there's a huge amount of sort of over complication of 867 00:57:44,520 --> 00:57:48,080 all of this just because we're in a system at the moment which 868 00:57:48,080 --> 00:57:51,640 see feels like it has a, a strong degree of artifice to it. 869 00:57:51,640 --> 00:57:54,120 Because, you know, again, Bitcoin, I mean, what's the 870 00:57:54,120 --> 00:57:56,440 point? What is the point in having 871 00:57:56,440 --> 00:57:58,560 Bitcoin? Because if you if, if it's 872 00:57:58,560 --> 00:58:02,480 whatever it is 100 and something $1000 a a Bitcoin and you sell a 873 00:58:02,480 --> 00:58:04,200 Bitcoin, well then you then you've got the money. 874 00:58:04,600 --> 00:58:06,960 But. So, So what use is that if you, 875 00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:09,200 if you don't believe that money's any good and equally if 876 00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:12,720 your Bitcoin is worth 100 and something $1000, well say what 877 00:58:12,720 --> 00:58:14,520 if you're not going to use it as money, you're only going to use 878 00:58:14,520 --> 00:58:16,640 it as Bitcoin, doesn't matter what it's worth relative to 879 00:58:16,640 --> 00:58:20,920 something else, does it? So the, the whole thing is, I 880 00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:25,560 would say a little bit sort of short term is for the moment. 881 00:58:25,560 --> 00:58:29,680 I mean, if you, if you want to invest in that, make some money 882 00:58:29,680 --> 00:58:32,200 in terms of currency in your own country and then spend that and 883 00:58:32,200 --> 00:58:34,600 acquire other things, fine. But just consider what it is 884 00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:36,400 that you're going to acquire. Because if it doesn't, if it 885 00:58:36,400 --> 00:58:39,000 doesn't actually physically exist, it's not really very much 886 00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:40,960 point in it would would be my view. 887 00:58:40,960 --> 00:58:42,360 I don't understand Bitcoin either. 888 00:58:42,680 --> 00:58:45,000 Yeah, I I, I also don't quite get it. 889 00:58:45,600 --> 00:58:46,960 I mean, I get it, but I don't get it. 890 00:58:47,520 --> 00:58:50,000 Yeah, I mean, well, it's it's this, you know, this is the sort 891 00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:54,800 of it's an interesting thing the the the whole nature of of well 892 00:58:55,240 --> 00:58:58,640 in considering something either to be an asset or an investment 893 00:58:58,640 --> 00:59:03,640 or an asset from which your your yielding return or, or whatever. 894 00:59:03,640 --> 00:59:06,600 I mean there, there, there's, there are a lot of different 895 00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:13,120 ways of looking at it, but but I would say that that if we are 896 00:59:13,120 --> 00:59:17,160 projecting a future where there is going to be like we started 897 00:59:17,160 --> 00:59:19,360 with, you know, there is going to be some sort of digital 898 00:59:19,800 --> 00:59:23,560 control system which will by and large, if you're a dissenting 899 00:59:23,560 --> 00:59:25,920 voice prohibit you from doing what you want to do, well, then 900 00:59:25,920 --> 00:59:29,280 don't be part of it. Have the things that people do 901 00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:31,440 fundamentally need. So if you're going to invest in 902 00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:36,320 Bitcoin and, and make in effect millions of say, pounds or 903 00:59:36,320 --> 00:59:39,080 dollars or Rand or whatever, well then go and buy something 904 00:59:39,080 --> 00:59:43,720 useful with it, like land, like food, because that then becomes 905 00:59:43,760 --> 00:59:46,560 your currency and that will never stop being useful. 906 00:59:47,040 --> 00:59:50,120 But you know, maybe I'm oversimplifying, I don't know. 907 00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:58,640 I don't know what to make of of crypto, Catherine Austin Fitz 908 00:59:58,640 --> 01:00:02,920 tends to argue that it's a way in which to get people into the. 909 01:00:03,440 --> 01:00:10,440 Sort of stable coin matrix and I think she's right, I mean as 910 01:00:10,440 --> 01:00:13,280 you. I, I, I think German Bitcoin 911 01:00:14,200 --> 01:00:17,320 created the, you know, the idea of a blockchain. 912 01:00:17,360 --> 01:00:26,760 I I think Bitcoin was it, it was a way for central banks to pilot 913 01:00:26,920 --> 01:00:30,160 certain technologies without openly piloting certain 914 01:00:30,160 --> 01:00:33,680 technologies. That's yeah, digital ID but but, 915 01:00:33,880 --> 01:00:38,000 but no, just a, a digital currency this and and and how 916 01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:43,320 you, because if you look at at how well, not because of, but, 917 01:00:43,320 --> 01:00:48,560 but if you look at how central banks are developing their, 918 01:00:48,560 --> 01:00:51,680 their central bank digital currencies, it's not dissimilar. 919 01:00:51,680 --> 01:00:56,080 They're, they're, they're using distributed blockchain like 920 01:00:56,080 --> 01:01:02,640 database structures that this, this is, this is an architecture 921 01:01:02,640 --> 01:01:05,240 that they're, that they're replicating to some degree. 922 01:01:05,240 --> 01:01:08,920 So, so you know, when, when did, when did the original white 923 01:01:08,920 --> 01:01:11,440 paper for Bitcoin come out 2008 or something? 924 01:01:11,440 --> 01:01:15,240 So we've had, you know, that couple of decades of, of 925 01:01:16,120 --> 01:01:20,600 development of, of blockchain technology that that was done 926 01:01:21,320 --> 01:01:26,520 and lots of well meaning people were involved in helping develop 927 01:01:26,520 --> 01:01:29,200 that. And that that's, that has 928 01:01:29,680 --> 01:01:36,320 allowed the central banks to, to look at what worked, what 929 01:01:36,320 --> 01:01:39,760 doesn't work, how it scales, how it doesn't scale and these kinds 930 01:01:39,760 --> 01:01:42,440 of things. So, so in terms of a, a research 931 01:01:42,440 --> 01:01:47,520 and development platform, it has been absolutely fantastic for, 932 01:01:47,520 --> 01:01:49,480 for central bank digital currencies. 933 01:01:50,000 --> 01:01:52,880 And that, that's, that's my view of what it, what it was in the 934 01:01:52,880 --> 01:01:58,120 meantime, of course, it exists and it has enabled all kinds of, 935 01:01:58,240 --> 01:02:02,400 of tech billionaires to be created because people that, 936 01:02:02,400 --> 01:02:07,240 that mined Bitcoin in 2008 and 2009 are now billionaires. 937 01:02:07,840 --> 01:02:12,320 That money is being used for so called philanthropic work, which 938 01:02:12,320 --> 01:02:15,280 of course is, is pushing the agenda as well, the various 939 01:02:15,280 --> 01:02:19,640 agendas as well. And, and, and of course it's, 940 01:02:19,640 --> 01:02:24,120 it's also, you know, one of its major roles is, is undoubtedly 941 01:02:25,480 --> 01:02:30,440 to be used as, as finance for all kinds of Black Ops right 942 01:02:30,440 --> 01:02:33,240 around the world. So, so it, it's a gift that 943 01:02:33,240 --> 01:02:35,760 keeps on giving in many, many ways. 944 01:02:35,760 --> 01:02:39,280 And, and of course, lots of people are going to absolutely 945 01:02:39,960 --> 01:02:43,840 reject what I've just said because they believe in Bitcoin 946 01:02:43,840 --> 01:02:48,280 and other cryptocurrencies as being some kind of bastion of 947 01:02:48,280 --> 01:02:51,680 freedom. I I I strongly recommend that 948 01:02:51,680 --> 01:02:57,880 people reconsider that position. OK, I'm looking at the time on 949 01:02:57,880 --> 01:03:02,040 that very uplifting note, Mike and Charles I, I really do hope 950 01:03:02,040 --> 01:03:05,120 that the 24 people listening on SoundCloud are doing this 951 01:03:05,120 --> 01:03:05,880 conversation.