1 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:42,040 Charles, before we started recording, you were just telling 2 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:45,040 me the differences now between consulate what High Commission 3 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:46,440 and embassy. That's really interesting. 4 00:00:47,160 --> 00:00:48,040 Just quickly go through None. that. 5 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:08,840 The distinct, the, the fundamental distinction is that 6 00:01:09,320 --> 00:01:11,960 a Commonwealth country will have what we call a High Commission, 7 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:14,920 a British High Commission and therefore a High Commissioner. 8 00:01:15,320 --> 00:01:19,520 Whereas a non Commonwealth country will have a an embassy. 9 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:23,360 And then a consulate will be a sort of smaller enterprise that 10 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:27,680 doesn't have a diplomatic or at least a, not a sort of, I 11 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:30,280 suppose, Tier 1 diplomatic capability. 12 00:01:30,280 --> 00:01:34,120 And therefore would be a, would be a, a processing place for 13 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:36,080 visas and passports and, and that kind of thing. 14 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:39,800 And I think for me, I, you know, what we were talking about just 15 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:42,480 before we started recording was that I haven't, I've, I spent 16 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:45,920 some time, Naomi, working on what was called ironically, 17 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:48,480 defence diplomacy. I mean, it's, that's sort of not 18 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:51,000 as funny as it sounds because that it is absolutely a thing. 19 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:56,000 And this is part of what's, you know, what gets described as 20 00:01:56,000 --> 00:02:01,000 soft power. And there are so many ways in 21 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:05,720 which soft power plays out and and sort of is deployed. 22 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:07,640 But I think my OK, I wasn't there. 23 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:15,200 But my feeling on it is that in fact, as time has passed since 24 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:20,640 countries became independent from the British Empire, and I 25 00:02:20,640 --> 00:02:25,520 will just pause here to say that I'm not advocating for the 26 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:28,200 continuation of an empire as it was. 27 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:34,680 What I am trying to set out is a case by which from the outside 28 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:37,320 or or at least partially from the inside, in the time that I 29 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:42,000 was there, it seems that the British have really lost lost a 30 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:46,920 grip on how to relate to other countries that that you know. 31 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:51,200 And of course we can go through all the terrible wrongs of the 32 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:55,640 past and all that nonsense that gets exploited now for all sorts 33 00:02:55,640 --> 00:02:58,640 of gain on on both sides. But I think what I really mean 34 00:02:58,640 --> 00:03:04,640 is that the, even the Commonwealth, I, I think that 35 00:03:04,640 --> 00:03:08,360 the United Kingdom doesn't behave in a, in a properly 36 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:11,000 interested fashion towards those sorts of countries. 37 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:13,200 And I, and I think that's a, that's a massive mistake. 38 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:17,600 And say the defence diplomacy thing, which I basically means 39 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:21,320 that in some way there's a relationship between the Foreign 40 00:03:21,640 --> 00:03:23,880 Commonwealth and Development Office and the Ministry of 41 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:27,560 Defence. In order that there's a British 42 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:30,040 military presence in a particular country, there always 43 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:32,520 is via the defence attache or military attache or whatever, 44 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:36,360 whatever he or she is is called. But in addition to that, there 45 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:39,600 might be a team that that's loosely attached to a High 46 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:44,000 Commission, usually because this is less so in countries where 47 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:48,240 where there isn't a Commonwealth connection, but, but that 48 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:52,480 involves liaison with the host nation armed forces and 49 00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:57,000 therefore the projection of what is described as soft power via 50 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:01,600 training or, you know, sharing of information and, and this, 51 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:05,840 that and the other. And it's, you know, you can see 52 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:09,480 how this comes into play. I mean, my experience of it was 53 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:12,440 in mostly Eastern, but a little bit Southern Africa. 54 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:18,000 And it's, it's evolved absolutely for sure. 55 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:21,640 But I think also even in that arena, they've, they've lost, 56 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:24,880 lost grip and, and also it's a very competitive space. 57 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:27,800 And I saw this, you know, I'm going back nearly 20 years now, 58 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:33,200 but I saw this, the, the competition between particularly 59 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:36,280 the United States and in fact, funnily enough, the Nordic 60 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:44,640 countries in terms of presenting the greatest offerings to these 61 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:51,680 nations in order that you would secure particular concessions to 62 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:54,640 be able to do whatever it is. And then, and then if you do 63 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:57,400 then go and look at, as I say, in my experience, Eastern 64 00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:00,640 Africa, what happened, particularly in Djibouti was 65 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:05,160 very interesting, which was the Americans first sort of foot on 66 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:08,960 the ground was the camp that they put in Djibouti. 67 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:11,800 And then you look at how all the, the port infrastructure 68 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:15,760 has, has sort of developed in, in that region around the Horn 69 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:16,960 of Africa and all the rest of it. 70 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:20,040 So it's, it's a big topic, but it, but it goes back to this, 71 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:23,480 the idea that in some way, you know, the Commonwealth is 72 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:24,840 special. And of course, the, you know, 73 00:05:24,840 --> 00:05:28,960 the one anomaly, the significant anomaly, it's not the only 74 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:31,320 anomaly, but the, but the one very significant anomaly, of 75 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:34,040 course, is that Rwanda became part of the Commonwealth, having 76 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:37,080 not previously been part of, you know, what one might describe as 77 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:39,560 the Empire. So anyway, we could go on. 78 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:42,760 But but yeah, it's just, it's just an interesting, an 79 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:46,760 interesting point. And I think like so many things, 80 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:52,240 it's easy just to gloss over the what seemed like not terribly 81 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:56,360 significant distinctions, but I think I think they are 82 00:05:56,800 --> 00:06:01,480 significant, but perhaps not so much in the way that they that 83 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:03,360 they necessarily should be. But you, you were just talking 84 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:06,920 about, you know, South Africa's relationship with the United 85 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:10,080 Kingdom on that front. And sort of, you know, how well 86 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:12,200 actually I'd, I'd be really interested to know now, 87 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:15,880 particularly given South Africa's stance on Israel, how 88 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:20,040 do you think relations are between South Africa and the 89 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:23,200 United Kingdom? No, they're not as good as they 90 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:26,640 used to be, but our relations with most Western countries 91 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:31,160 appears to be deteriorating. I, I, I would like to just jump 92 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:34,640 in here German for May and say I need to just challenge a couple 93 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:37,120 of things that that Charles said there. 94 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:43,440 My first question is, did the British Empire end? 95 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:47,800 And I would argue that it didn't, that it just changed 96 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:50,600 into something different. And I mean, one analogy or one 97 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:54,720 comparison we might use. This is the Roman Empire, for 98 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:58,640 example, which was very much a military operation until it 99 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:01,160 morphed into the Roman Catholic Church and suddenly it became a 100 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:05,600 soft power operation instead. And I, I would draw some 101 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:07,320 parallels there. But the other thing that I would 102 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:13,080 just say is that that I don't think we should ignore the, the 103 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:16,640 wrongs in inverted commas of the British Empire. 104 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:19,920 I think we should look actually a lot closer at those than 105 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:24,160 perhaps we're willing to. And that is because the, the 106 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:28,800 actual modus operandi of that of the empire, as it was 107 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:33,600 particularly in the late 1930 twenties, well, in the 19th 108 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:37,320 century, let's say mid to late 19th century, we see the same 109 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:41,960 types of, of act of activities, the same types of manipulations 110 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:47,760 being used then as we see today. And actually to get an 111 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:51,160 understanding of, I would argue to get an understanding of, of 112 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:54,880 the types of things, activities that we see from the so called 113 00:07:54,880 --> 00:08:00,440 deep state, which is an expression of empire, that, that 114 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:03,280 we need to be actually looking very closely at what the, the 115 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:09,000 British Empire did and how it maintained it's influence in, in 116 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:12,840 certain countries. If we look at Palestine, if we 117 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:15,720 look at India or we look at Ireland, for example, just to 118 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:19,080 give 3 examples, we see the same types of behaviours in each of 119 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:23,280 those theatres and, and we see the same types of behaviours 120 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:29,160 from certain factions today. And, and I think that would help 121 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:34,120 us actually understand what's happening to us now because we 122 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:37,000 are actually on the receiving end of that. 123 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:39,640 I'm talking about the British people, Europeans, United 124 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:42,120 States. I don't know so much about South 125 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:45,080 Africa, but certainly we are on the receiving, receiving end of 126 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:49,160 the same type of manipulations. And I think there's value in, in 127 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:56,320 being a bit more a bit objective for trying to separate ourselves 128 00:08:56,320 --> 00:09:01,880 from, from what we might see as as not quite sure how to put 129 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:07,240 this, but some, some kind of of loyalty to, to Britain as it was 130 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:10,520 at that time. I'd be interested in Charles's 131 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:15,440 rebuttal of that. Yeah, well, I mean good 132 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:21,080 challenge and I think it is very important to to have challenge 133 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:23,040 and and to thrash this stuff out. 134 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:31,480 I think yes, of course I I do agree with what you're saying on 135 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:35,600 both points. I mean, insofar as the empire 136 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:39,760 having ended. I think what I mean by that. 137 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:44,520 OK, sorry. Or rather, would I be right in 138 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:48,080 thinking that what you mean by that is that is that in actual 139 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:53,960 fact, the influence that pervades the countries that 140 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:57,800 constituted the empire is, to all intents and purposes still 141 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:00,800 there, it just manifests in a different way. 142 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:02,000 Is that? Is that what you mean? 143 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:04,600 Well, that's part of it, yes, absolutely. 144 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:10,160 You know, the Commonwealth is, is a soft power operation and 145 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:14,840 you know, notionally the, the, the Crown is still head of the 146 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:19,400 Commonwealth, but it is certainly from a, a deep state 147 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:21,920 point of view, it, it is certainly one of the, the 148 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:25,720 channels that, that we influence the, the same countries that we 149 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:28,520 were actually physically occupying at a certain point. 150 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:31,720 And, and my, I would, I would question the degree of 151 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:33,880 independence that many of these countries or any of these 152 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:39,360 countries have because, because we still accept and, and those 153 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:44,680 those countries still look up to, in a certain sense, Britain. 154 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:49,480 Yeah, OK. No, no, with that I would 155 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:52,360 totally agree. It depends. 156 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:56,880 Yeah, I know. I suppose it depends on how many 157 00:10:56,880 --> 00:10:59,760 layers one wants to consider. There might be in terms of 158 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:05,760 motivation and benefits, perceived benefits on either 159 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:12,760 side. If if one's to imagine that the 160 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:19,280 empire was supposedly benefiting the ruling classes and indeed 161 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:28,560 the state of the United Kingdom during its pomp, then I I don't 162 00:11:28,560 --> 00:11:35,640 know that one can suggest that the same could be said for the 163 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:39,840 sort of legacy framework now. And I'm, I'm really only talking 164 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:43,080 about the sort of the, the ruling class is part in the, 165 00:11:43,520 --> 00:11:49,080 the, the way I see it is that the, the communications and the 166 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:56,320 dealings with countries that were formerly part of the empire 167 00:11:56,320 --> 00:12:02,040 and do have terrific resources and capabilities that could 168 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:04,640 still be tapped into. I don't, I just don't see that 169 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:07,240 that's being done effectively it. 170 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:11,360 I think that depends on what your definition is because you 171 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:15,080 know, I would argue that the British Empire was not about the 172 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:17,240 ruling classes. The British Empire was about the 173 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:19,720 City of London, the British East India Company. 174 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:23,560 It was, it was a financial corporate empire that, that made 175 00:12:23,560 --> 00:12:28,240 use of the resources of the state and the, and the cover of 176 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:32,720 it being the British State Empire as to cover the 177 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:36,480 activities, the corporate financial activities that were 178 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:39,040 going on. And, and, and in fact, the deep 179 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:42,400 state was, was tied into that. If we look at what's going on 180 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:46,520 today, I would argue and we're seeing, you know, the, the, the, 181 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:49,600 the coming out of the shadows once again of the merger between 182 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:52,200 state and corporation and the merger between state and 183 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:56,040 financial institution, that, that it's, it's again changing 184 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:59,480 into something that maybe resembles a bit more of what was 185 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:03,320 going on in, in the late 1800s. But but you know, if, if that's 186 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:06,040 your definition of what the empire was, then I think what 187 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:09,520 we're seeing today is it looks a lot more like that than than 188 00:13:09,560 --> 00:13:13,760 than the idea that it was, you know, pumping up the the so 189 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:18,680 called oligarchy or aristocracy, whatever you want to call it. 190 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:22,480 Yeah, OK. I think actually in in either 191 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:25,200 situation there, what what I would say is, is very stark. 192 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:27,600 And funnily enough, we've talked about this before, but the one 193 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:30,320 that, you know, as far as the British were concerned, and, and 194 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:33,280 I think we do have to be quite specific because when you 195 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:37,160 consider how other Western nations colonised that the, the, 196 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:41,040 the modus upper and was different in each respect. 197 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:46,000 But the, what characterised British, the, the British sort 198 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:49,840 of colonial approach, or at least one of the defining things 199 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:54,360 that enabled so much of what you describe was the development of 200 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:59,160 infrastructure in order that a lot of the things that had to 201 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:01,920 happen, which did have a bearing on all the the finance and 202 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:05,240 banking things was, was deliverable. 203 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:10,600 And what is very, very stark, I would say pretty much without 204 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:14,320 exception, is that post independence, that 205 00:14:14,680 --> 00:14:18,280 infrastructure has completely and utterly crumbled. 206 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:22,760 And that therefore has frustrated what one might regard 207 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:28,400 as efforts to continue to benefit the City of London and 208 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:30,720 the bankers. Because you, you know, you do 209 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:33,240 still require things to actually work. 210 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:37,120 And that's the bit that's been lost control of. 211 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:40,320 And that and you know, and then, then, well, I don't want to sort 212 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:43,320 of confuse the conversation, but then it's interesting to look 213 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:48,280 now at how the European Union has sort of inveigled itself in 214 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:51,120 lots of parts of these world, lots of these parts of the 215 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:54,440 world. And also China again and the 216 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:56,040 influence that China's brought to bear. 217 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:58,440 UAE. There are, you know, lots of 218 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:02,760 other countries have had the chance to, I would say, come in 219 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:09,120 and to a great extent displace what the British might otherwise 220 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:14,000 still be doing. So I would push back a little 221 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:16,640 bit on that as well because of course the infrastructure has 222 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:20,000 crumbled in these countries, but infrastructure has crumbled in 223 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:23,000 Britain and in the United States and the in the EU as well. 224 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:26,720 Because of course we're in the transitionary economic period 225 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:31,920 where we've abandoned the productive capability that we 226 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:36,920 have and therefore we don't need that infrastructure that we are 227 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:42,560 turning ourselves into a digital services economy. 228 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:49,720 And alongside that comes the totalitarian digital grid that 229 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:52,880 we are all familiar with. And, and the in fact, the 230 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:58,080 restrictions on travel, the restrictions on freedoms that 231 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:02,160 are coming with that don't need that infrastructure either. 232 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:04,920 So. So I would suggest that that 233 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:09,080 it's maybe not as simple as as as that. 234 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:13,160 OK, yeah, I mean, I I agree with you that that's exactly how it's 235 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:15,360 being put forward. But I think, you know, just 236 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:18,840 considering what Patrick Wood was talking to John by the other 237 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:23,560 day, you know, we're to an extent talking about technocracy 238 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:27,200 and the the idea that that's how the situation can run. 239 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:31,000 Of course, it's still unproven. And let's just think about 240 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:33,240 something we've we were covering on. 241 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:36,960 Well, not, not you or me, but but that was dealt with on 242 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:41,880 Wednesday's news programme this week was lithium, for example, 243 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:44,160 is constant bang on a bit. You know, whether it's rare 244 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:47,480 earth minerals or this, that and the other all of this stuff, 245 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:51,760 despite the fact, yes, it is digital and therefore it's 246 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:53,960 apparently not tangible, of course it is there. 247 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:58,240 There is a massive amount of infrastructure and resource 248 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:03,400 requirement for this. And I think that that is totally 249 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:07,079 overlooked. You know, the, the idea that 250 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:10,000 this stuff can just build and build and build without there 251 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:15,079 needing to be an improvement. If they if this is is to 252 00:17:15,079 --> 00:17:19,079 actually play out without there being an improvement in the way 253 00:17:19,079 --> 00:17:21,480 in which that happens. Because at the moment, for 254 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:25,760 example, the, the United Kingdom's plan for digital 255 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:30,600 everything is, is, has got holes a mile wide in it because they 256 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:33,680 don't have the materials to be able to do what it is. 257 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:36,600 And that's why I, you know, I do go by and it's to sound sort of 258 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:41,400 mundanely pragmatic, but I, but I do think that that one cannot 259 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:45,400 ignore the requirement for an infrastructure that does deliver 260 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:47,160 whatever it is, however conceptual. 261 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:52,000 The final point actually is there are still people and 262 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:54,520 things that need to be in place for that to happen. 263 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:59,200 And that's the bit that I see as having changed so radically from 264 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:02,440 the days of empire. And when we, it doesn't matter 265 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:04,440 whether we're talking about the East India Company or whatever 266 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:08,800 it was, but the, the system underneath which the, the 267 00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:12,880 banking operation sat was a well oiled machine. 268 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:15,000 And I don't see that that that is the case now. 269 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:18,000 So I, I, I totally agree, but that's absolutely where, where 270 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:19,360 we seem to be going as a country. 271 00:18:19,360 --> 00:18:22,640 So this is not exclusive to, you know, the empire as it was or 272 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:30,160 is, but but I think it's it, you know, the the idea of a collapse 273 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:33,560 is, you know, something that people really do have to 274 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:35,320 consider, but in but in every regard. 275 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:38,520 I mean, I would completely agree with that bit than you said 276 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:40,840 there, Charles. I would argue that the empire 277 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:45,280 that that that was and I as I say that I would argue still is 278 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:49,040 is in a state of collapse and and you know, an expression of 279 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:51,240 that. Of course, you know, the, the 280 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:57,080 empire can only be built on people and, and what we have 281 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:01,360 seen of course in the last 100 years is a collapse in standards 282 00:19:01,360 --> 00:19:04,680 right across the board. So inevitably the expression of 283 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:07,400 empire that we see is in a state of collapse. 284 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:09,680 They make bad decisions, they make wrong decisions. 285 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:16,280 They, they don't recognise the need for, as you say, the, the, 286 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:19,120 the, the fact that they do still require infrastructure if 287 00:19:19,120 --> 00:19:21,600 they're going to develop this digital control grid. 288 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:26,920 At every level of society, we see this, this collapse in, in 289 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:32,040 intellect and, and ability. And so inevitably, whatever the 290 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:35,880 expression of empire that we have is going to come up in the 291 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:39,200 same type of, we're going to see the same type of collapse. 292 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:42,280 I would I would suggest. Yeah, OK. 293 00:19:42,360 --> 00:19:43,360 I'd say. Yeah. 294 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:47,080 I mean, I in a sense, it seems to me like we're we're sort of 295 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:49,400 talking about the same thing, but from perhaps slightly 296 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:53,080 different angles in that we're both talking about collapse. 297 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:58,520 And I suppose, yes, to be fair, what I'm describing by collapse 298 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:01,040 means that my perspective is that that's a failure. 299 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:03,520 Is that, that that therefore suggests that actually Britain 300 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:06,880 has lost, you know, the United Kingdom has lost it, the grip it 301 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:09,800 once had. But but I mean, that's a, it's, 302 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:12,960 you know, in a way, a slightly more semantic point on the issue 303 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:17,360 of, of recriminations. And you know, how awful all this 304 00:20:17,360 --> 00:20:18,960 was. I, I, I really was only talking 305 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:24,400 about the way in which that relates to to the very dull sort 306 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:27,560 of. Sometimes overt political 307 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:30,720 discourse and and the egging on of countries to to call for 308 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:33,120 reparations in the church getting involved that it just 309 00:20:33,120 --> 00:20:40,680 just the type of thing that is just so, so utterly pointless, 310 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:43,640 frankly. And and it it doesn't in any way 311 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:46,080 address any of the things that you're actually talking about. 312 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:51,440 So this is so it's, it's totally superficial and you know, it's a 313 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:53,840 directory. Yeah, yeah, it's totally, an 314 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:56,400 utterly, totally an utterly. And and you know, you think of 315 00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:01,080 how you know that then pushing on to something like slavery and 316 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:03,960 like the National Gallery or the National Portrait Gallery. 317 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:07,520 I think now, well, if just for a number of years, it's certainly 318 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:09,080 on the website. I can't remember if it's beside 319 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:12,120 their paintings. You know, every single portrait 320 00:21:12,120 --> 00:21:18,520 or painting has has a, a sort of, it was like a Fact Check of 321 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:22,480 whether or not the artist or the subject of the painting or 322 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:25,960 whoever commissioned or paid for it had any links to slavery. 323 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:30,240 OK, if all the things, you know, what, is there anything else 324 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:32,720 you'd like to write about it? No, no, no, we'll just, we'll 325 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:34,440 just concentrate on that one thing. 326 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:38,080 And of course, by slavery, they only meant the slavery of. 327 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:41,880 Well, I always describe sort of African people. 328 00:21:42,360 --> 00:21:49,800 I mean, it's so it's just so unbelievably superficial and 329 00:21:50,360 --> 00:21:55,120 narrow and and inflammatory, but yeah, so that I think that's 330 00:21:55,120 --> 00:21:56,800 really what I meant. But no, I mean, otherwise, yeah. 331 00:21:56,800 --> 00:22:00,320 Gosh, I I would totally agree. And, you know, we talked, I 332 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:02,760 think it was last week. I absolutely we're talking about 333 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:04,920 the the Roman Empire and all of it. 334 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:07,080 I mean, it's it's endlessly fascinating. 335 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:10,720 And in fact, Jim, again, this came up to a certain extent with 336 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:16,120 EM Burlingame on the the idea of, of civilizations and and 337 00:22:16,120 --> 00:22:22,200 that kind of thing and and how how this idea of sort of power 338 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:25,040 and influence persists, but through the people. 339 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:26,760 And I thought, I thought, I thought that was very 340 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:29,520 interesting. Well, Mike, do you not think 341 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:35,560 that there is a case to be made, as difficult as it might be for 342 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:38,800 Empire? No, I don't. 343 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:42,640 I don't think that that because what's the cost for that? 344 00:22:43,120 --> 00:22:48,480 And, you know, I, I, I really find that a hard argument to to 345 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:50,520 agree with. You know, it comes back to the 346 00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:54,760 the famous scene in in the Life of Brian where they're talking 347 00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:57,280 about what did the Romans ever did for us and of course the 348 00:22:57,320 --> 00:22:58,760 aqueducts and all this kind of stuff. 349 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:03,040 Well, yeah, OK. But one, one of the things we 350 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:06,280 got to remember is that the, you know, the reason that 351 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:13,480 infrastructure was built was to make the trading and effectively 352 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:15,360 the rape of the countries possible. 353 00:23:18,120 --> 00:23:21,640 You know, at the, at the, the, the, the idea of the modern 354 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:24,280 nation state is based on the principle. 355 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:25,800 It comes from the Treaty of Westphalia. 356 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:27,960 It's based on the principle. If you look at the first clause 357 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:34,240 of that treaty, it talks about each nation operating for the 358 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,160 benefit of the other. And through that comes peace. 359 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:41,000 And this is the basis of the modern nation state. 360 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:47,000 Now that is totally anti empire because if you, if you're 361 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:51,520 recognising that peaceful coexistence comes from the fact 362 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:55,680 that you can benefit as, as a nation from helping your fellow 363 00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:59,520 nation benefit. That is a very different 364 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:02,480 approach to going into a country, colonising it, 365 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:06,480 installing infrastructure, installing a legal system that 366 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:12,440 suits you and withdrawing without giving any decent 367 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,760 compensation, withdrawing the raw materials from that company 368 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:18,240 so that you can profit and build your productive capacity. 369 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,160 Right. There's, there's 22 very 370 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:24,760 different approaches there. And I think that that, you know, 371 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,280 for all its faults, and I'm not denying there are many, many 372 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:31,360 faults with, with bricks. Bricks seems to be more aligned 373 00:24:31,360 --> 00:24:36,480 with the Westphalian principle than other forms of of about. 374 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:38,680 I don't even want to call it empire because I'm not sure that 375 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:40,840 it is. But you know, if we believe in 376 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:46,000 the idea of peoples and nations having sovereignty, then they 377 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,880 have to be allowed to develop independently and how we can 378 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:53,320 assist with that development as long as it is a bilateral 379 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:56,360 assistance and not a unilateral assistance. 380 00:24:56,360 --> 00:25:00,280 And that that that would be that would be my answer to that. 381 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:04,040 This is a long conversation, but I think that that, you know, 382 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:09,560 there is strength in people who come from a common background 383 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:13,920 and have common outlook working as a nation. 384 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:15,920 I mean this is the whole principle of of a nation. 385 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:20,840 That's that's a lot of that's where a lot of the strength that 386 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:25,920 we have comes from having a common basis for what we're 387 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:29,480 doing, whether that's that is a family level or a community 388 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:34,000 level or a nation level. But I think that's where the, I 389 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:36,840 think that's where the the conflict starts arising is at 390 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:40,520 what point? No. 391 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:45,000 In what sense? Well, for example, China has 1 392 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,400 1/2 billion people. I mean, that's not even a 393 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:50,240 nation. That is not just an entire 394 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:52,560 civilization. But then you could compare that 395 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:56,000 to say, I don't know, Liechtenstein, which has what, 396 00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:59,480 40,000 people? But, but that, but that's based 397 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,600 on the implication that that people have to be managed. 398 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:08,400 And, and you know, with that, that, that gets in the whole 399 00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:12,360 conversation about, about what our form of governance should 400 00:26:12,360 --> 00:26:15,680 be. But, you know, I, I think that, 401 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:18,080 I think that the, the, the principle that we're talking 402 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:23,080 about here is, is 1 where we, no matter what size of, of 403 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:27,160 organisational unit that we have, that we're looking at our 404 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,400 neighbours and, and, and we're looking at them as friends, not, 405 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,600 not in, in competition. That we've got to Blatter them 406 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,960 over the head with a big gun and, and make sure that they're, 407 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,120 they keep low while we rise to the top. 408 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,800 That we could the, you know, that we can, we can actually 409 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:49,120 cooperate and function and recognise that, that, that other 410 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:53,160 groupings, no matter what size they are, might have something 411 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:55,880 to bring to the party. And, and that we can work 412 00:26:55,880 --> 00:27:00,520 together to, you know, and this, this, this comes back to this 413 00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:06,080 issue of whether we can actually outgrow the whole issue or, or 414 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:10,840 concept of geopolitics and, and think more in terms of, of a 415 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:14,880 genuine recognition of and a genuine respect for the 416 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:17,560 differences that we have. And that those differences might 417 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:21,160 actually bring solutions. But that only works if we are 418 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:26,000 prepared to consider people from other countries or other 419 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:30,520 groupings as as friends rather than people that are just trying 420 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:33,920 to steal our lunch. Well, I was just going back to 421 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:40,640 I, I don't mean to be too much of a parent, but but might use 422 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:48,000 the word assist And I, I just, I was going to ask what you're 423 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,920 talking about relationships between countries and, and the 424 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:56,000 notion of assistance. I was just wondering what what 425 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,600 you meant by that and how you sort of see that. 426 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:01,480 I can't remember what I said. No what? 427 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:04,120 What? OK, annoyingly I can't remember 428 00:28:04,120 --> 00:28:08,000 exactly what you said either, so we have to listen back on on no. 429 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:13,760 What's my what Mike was saying is that instead of going into 430 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:18,040 those regions, colonising and imposing your politics and your 431 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:22,240 beliefs etcetera, you rather allow them to grow and if yours 432 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:24,160 is more advanced than theirs, then you assist. 433 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:27,480 And so you're asking what I mean by assist? 434 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,080 Yeah, yes. Well, I mean, OK, cooperate, 435 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,120 whatever, whatever, whatever term we want to use. 436 00:28:34,120 --> 00:28:37,440 But but you know, The thing is that we're not going in with 437 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:41,320 guns and saying right, this is the way it's going to be that 438 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:45,920 that actually we do have to respect the approach that. 439 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:49,760 So, you know, if, if, if, if a country that we consider to be, 440 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:56,920 you know, a bunch of uncivilised heathens, if we view them that 441 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:02,120 way and, and therefore we have no respect for, for their wish 442 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:04,880 to live in a particular way with a particular lifestyle. 443 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:10,000 You know, then we may have a tendency to go into that country 444 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,200 and, and say, no, this is the way you've got to do it. 445 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:14,400 And if you don't want to do it that way, tough luck because 446 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:15,720 we've got the guns and you don't. 447 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:18,600 This isn't the right, this isn't the right approach. 448 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:21,440 That's not cooperation. You know, it begins with 449 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:25,880 respect, respect for, for the, the culture that that exists in 450 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:29,720 another part of the world. And if, if the answer from them 451 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,840 is no, then the answer is no. And and we should not be 452 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:36,320 weighing in with our boots just because they have a particular 453 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:40,760 rare earth under the ground. OK, Yeah, good. 454 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:46,200 Yeah, I, I, no, I mean, the, the reason I ask is because again, 455 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,080 slightly going back to where we started the conversation with 456 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:53,040 regard to all the various projects that in particular the 457 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,320 United Kingdom has running in countries all over the world 458 00:29:56,320 --> 00:30:00,800 under the apparent heading of assistance. 459 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:06,160 And having having been in a position where I've supposedly 460 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:08,600 been providing that sort of assistance. 461 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:13,480 My question, not just now, but even at the time was always, was 462 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:17,520 always to consider putting the boot on the other first and, and 463 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:22,720 imagining why it would be that people, wherever they may be, 464 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:26,320 would consider that they actually want assistance and 465 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:30,040 what the what the purpose of such a thing might be. 466 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,160 And, and I would say, of course, I totally agree with you. 467 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,680 I mean, the the idea of just sort of tipping up somewhere and 468 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,680 saying, right, we'll have that and we've got guns. 469 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:43,880 So, you know, just keep quiet or, or indeed, you know, die, 470 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:46,120 make die makes an offer, whatever it is. 471 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:50,800 I think honesty frankly, and it should be, it should be no 472 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:54,440 different from a transaction between an individual. 473 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:58,680 If if somebody has got sort of, you know, lovely carrots or 474 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:00,960 marrows in their garden and you want them and you say right, 475 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:03,160 well I'd be interested in, you know, in some of those, what 476 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:08,120 would you like for them? You know, why should we regard 477 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:11,760 that just because we are supposedly, and I absolutely say 478 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:15,480 supposedly more more developed, more civilised, more powerful, 479 00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:19,840 whatever whatever qualification that that somehow gives us the 480 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:27,160 right to first of all, consider that we can get what we want. 481 00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:30,120 But but also that we that we sort of have any kind of a right 482 00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:35,600 to do anything other than simply declare honestly to whichever 483 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:40,200 doesn't, not even a country, you know, region, whoever's, whoever 484 00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:43,640 is controlling a particular resource that we're interested 485 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,000 in. Why? 486 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:50,360 And I appreciate this sounds hopelessly naive, but, but, but 487 00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:54,680 really to consider that anything other than saying we really like 488 00:31:54,680 --> 00:32:00,240 your XY and Z, would you like to enter into some sort of mutually 489 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:02,760 beneficial agreement? And I think this is this goes 490 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:10,160 back to to what I've observed with the with the post empire 491 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:13,760 countries. Is that that bit And OK, we of 492 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:17,360 course, if one considers that all of it's to an extent 493 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:19,960 intentional, then fine, that explains it away. 494 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:23,040 But but I don't think that is the case for absolutely 495 00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:25,520 everybody, certainly not on the corporate spectrum where 496 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:28,000 actually maximising profits is what matters. 497 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:34,840 But the the cat handed way in which people try to negotiate 498 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:37,880 and make arrangements in order that they can try to satisfy 499 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:41,760 both parties, It's just woeful. But it's so, it's so flipping 500 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:45,040 obvious. You know, you're quite right. 501 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,040 You don't have the guns, you don't have the inherent 502 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:50,080 suggestion that somehow you're better. 503 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:56,400 But but, but nonetheless, the, the without corruption, without 504 00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:00,280 the pouring of significant amounts of money into the 505 00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:05,320 pockets of people that shouldn't be taking control of it, very 506 00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,720 little of this would be possible because the, the absolute lack 507 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:12,240 of respect for the simple process of coming to an 508 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:14,560 arrangement that satisfies both parties. 509 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,920 And and that is exactly where we should be with it. 510 00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,280 So, so going back to your question, Germ, as to whether, 511 00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:23,320 you know, whether empire can be good. 512 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:27,280 I mean, I, I, I don't, I, I, I don't see how. 513 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:32,400 I mean, it's, I, I said earlier that the British Empire was 514 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:34,560 characterised OK by a lot of things. 515 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:38,600 But one of the, one of the great legacies has been the road rail 516 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:42,960 shipping networks, which, which given the time at which they've 517 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:44,880 done in the terrain and all the rest of it are absolutely 518 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:46,960 extraordinary. Of course, almost all now 519 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:52,760 totally redundant and and broken, but unless those were 520 00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:55,880 going to be of significant benefit for the people that were 521 00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,600 living in those places, then then frankly, none of that 522 00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:01,240 should have happened. You know, what use, what use 523 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:07,520 does somebody living in, well, let's say Eastern Africa sort of 524 00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:12,080 in the interior have for a railway, unless it is simply to 525 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:14,280 to dig stuff out the ground, take it back out and what are 526 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:16,320 they going to get out of it? You know, supposedly our 527 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:20,639 education voting, but of course that's tax and control. 528 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:24,120 So yes, I mean, I, I'm afraid to say I don't see that. 529 00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:27,679 I don't think there's such a thing as a sort of benevolent 530 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:30,360 empire. And we go back to the, the idea 531 00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:34,239 of the, the, you know, the Monty Python, you know, what did, what 532 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,040 did the Romans ever do for us? Well, I mean, I think it's quite 533 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:39,040 clear, although we wouldn't be having this conversation, They, 534 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:42,960 they, they laid the template, they set out the means by which 535 00:34:43,199 --> 00:34:47,800 all of these things can be done and, you know, further carried 536 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:50,920 out by others along the way. I mean, you know, to an extent 537 00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:55,040 the Normans and, and that the baton was simply picked up in 538 00:34:55,040 --> 00:35:01,240 the, well, sort of early or pre Victorian period and and rolled 539 00:35:01,240 --> 00:35:05,760 out again. So the the the only, the only. 540 00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:09,480 Well, in fact, Charles, you know you can, if you let's pick a 541 00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:13,760 time in history where we start. If we look at the, the original 542 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:18,720 Silk Road, the original Silk Road trading empire was as far 543 00:35:18,720 --> 00:35:25,440 from the European side was, was based in Venice and, and the 544 00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:29,200 Lombard area. This created a banking system 545 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:31,120 which was known as the Lombard banking system. 546 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:34,320 You go to the City of London now you see Lombard St you see and, 547 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:38,800 and you see all these references back to that original Venetian 548 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:43,280 empire. And, and so you can follow, 549 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:45,840 actually, you can actually follow that as it, as it moved 550 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:52,000 westwards from, from Venice and, and through the, the Dutch and 551 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:54,600 the Netherlands and the Dutch East India Company into the City 552 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:57,360 of London and so on. So, you know, this is a, it's a 553 00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:02,080 continuous process rather than sort of an empire collapsing 554 00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:04,200 and, and reforming somewhere else. 555 00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:06,360 It has moved, moved across the world. 556 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:09,680 So it's ended up in London and now it's sort of headed, you 557 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:12,640 know, in more recent year, decades headed West so that you 558 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:15,800 can't ignore the, the Wall Street part of that as well. 559 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:19,760 But nonetheless, it it's, it's still there as it was. 560 00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:22,560 Yeah, I know. I mean, I I would totally agree. 561 00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:25,160 I I mean, I'm simply talking about sort of rehashing the same 562 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:26,960 template. I'm not, I'm not specifically 563 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:29,080 saying that's that's British, but I mean, no, it's, it's 564 00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:30,560 fascinating. I think when one examines it in 565 00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:32,400 those terms, it's it's everywhere. 566 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:35,200 Just it's exactly, it keeps keeps rolling. 567 00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:41,040 Yeah, but but I just, you know, I don't see that that one can 568 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:46,600 ever say there are perceived benefits for the the whatever 569 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:47,880 they're called. You know, there's the sort of 570 00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:50,600 the victims or the the nations that end up having this 571 00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:54,440 superimposed on top of them. And I mean, but I but I mean do 572 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:58,000 you do you have? Just before you ask Jeremy this, 573 00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:00,080 I'd just like to make one other point and that's this whole 574 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:03,640 issue of British, because a lot of people, of course, are or get 575 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:06,720 very sensitive about once you start accusing, because then 576 00:37:06,720 --> 00:37:11,360 maybe we're British ourselves. We sometimes get upset about it 577 00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:13,360 being attached to the word British. 578 00:37:13,720 --> 00:37:16,400 And I was just, I just want to, before we move on, make the 579 00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:18,280 point. There's quite an astute 580 00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:23,240 observation by David Scott and that was that we have an 581 00:37:23,240 --> 00:37:27,880 occupying power in this country and we we should perceive it as 582 00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:31,880 being parasitic in nature. So it's not British, it's not an 583 00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:33,880 expression of the British people. 584 00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:37,560 It is something that has been imposed on this country at this 585 00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:42,600 point in time and maybe if we recognise that we can begin to 586 00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:45,240 to think about ways that we might want to deal with it. 587 00:37:46,240 --> 00:37:47,480 Sorry, what? Was your question, Charles? 588 00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:52,840 Oh, just whether with your question about empire and and 589 00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:56,840 there being any benefit from it. So I was just wondering whether 590 00:37:56,840 --> 00:38:01,640 you had a sort of counter, you know, whether you could see a 591 00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:05,320 way in which it can work. No, I largely do. 592 00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:09,040 No, I largely do agree with with your comments. 593 00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:13,600 I was obviously asking for the sake of of devil's advocate. 594 00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:17,120 Yeah. However, and this is obviously 595 00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:21,920 perhaps a more personal tug of war, but I am a result of 596 00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:26,960 effectively the British Empire's expansion, my parents too, and 597 00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:30,520 my grandparents and in fact the entire Afrikaner nation if you 598 00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:35,320 think about it. And so if they are no perceived 599 00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:39,160 benefits, then it kind of negates quite a lot of stuff 600 00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:41,440 that that matters to us now. Things are what they are 601 00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:43,240 obviously, and you can't reverse anything. 602 00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:48,560 So then I guess the conversation comes around, well, comes around 603 00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:52,240 to what happens next. So South Africa, for example, is 604 00:38:52,240 --> 00:38:54,280 no longer part of the Commonwealth, but I think Canada 605 00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:58,520 and Australia still are. Should they in essence, 606 00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:04,680 disconnect from the Crown? I think that's, that's not a, 607 00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:06,920 that's not a, a question that we can answer. 608 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:10,280 That is something which is absolutely for the people of 609 00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:13,960 those countries. But I mean on, on the, you know, 610 00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:17,040 I'm also a product of that expansion in a sense, because, 611 00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:22,040 you know, I come from Northern Ireland, Presbyterian family. 612 00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:26,360 We were sent there as part of various settlements, settlement 613 00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:32,160 operations in the in fact, I can't even remember exactly when 614 00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:34,880 our family ended up in that country. 615 00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:39,960 But but the point is you're, you're asking where does that, 616 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:43,160 where does that leave you? And I think this is, this is a 617 00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:45,800 tricky thing. I think it becomes what we're 618 00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:50,960 seeing in terms of of this sort of pressure for reparations or 619 00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:57,040 the pressure for the pressure on the Afrikaans nation within 620 00:39:57,040 --> 00:39:59,880 South Africa and so on. Is it and just a continuing 621 00:39:59,880 --> 00:40:03,600 expression of the same types of divide and conquer tactics that 622 00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:05,920 we've seen from empires in the past. 623 00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:11,880 And you know, the fact of the matter is you are there and 624 00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:17,160 you've been there for whatever number of years that that. 625 00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:21,360 It, it would be incorrect in my opinion to that then say well, 626 00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:24,800 you've no right to be there anymore, so get out this, this 627 00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:26,080 would not be the right thing to do. 628 00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:31,680 I think we've got to, we've got to start recognising that black 629 00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:34,600 white in South Africa or Protestant Catholic in Ireland 630 00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:38,800 or whatever it happens to be, we have been on the receiving end 631 00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:43,520 of manipulations of a different type of people. 632 00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:49,840 And that actually we are all the victims of that in the sense. 633 00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:52,200 And we shouldn't be actually even thinking about it in terms 634 00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:54,120 of victimhood anymore, in my opinion. 635 00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:58,800 But we should be recognising that we are friends and the 636 00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:01,880 enemy is something different and we should be coming together on 637 00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:08,080 that basis and not, not resorting to to falling into the 638 00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:12,960 same old trap which is imposed on us by them to believe that 639 00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:16,920 somehow we are enemies. And so, you know, I, I think we 640 00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:21,960 got to, we got to start recognising what has happened in 641 00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:25,600 a, in a slightly different way over the last few 100 years and 642 00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:29,360 recognising who the the, the instigators of that have have 643 00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:33,800 been and who's actually has been on the receiving end of those 644 00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:38,040 activities. And maybe we recognise who the 645 00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:39,400 real enemy is at that point. Yeah. 646 00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:41,960 Well, what about Israel, for example? 647 00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:46,000 I mean, we know that there are many commentators who we 648 00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:51,040 personally know who will argue against the existence of Israel. 649 00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:55,840 But people who are born our age now in Israel, it's not their 650 00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:58,600 fault what happened in 19 in the 1940s. 651 00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:02,400 No, but they have to they, they, they currently do not they, 652 00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:04,640 they're currently the people that are pulling the triggers 653 00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:07,880 charm. And so, so you know, they have 654 00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:11,480 to begin by recognising what it is that they're pulling the 655 00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:14,760 trigger on behalf of. And they've got to, in my 656 00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:17,040 opinion, they've got to stop doing that and they've got to 657 00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:22,040 stop doing it yesterday. And they've got to actually 658 00:42:22,240 --> 00:42:25,000 recognise that the people that they're pulling the triggers on 659 00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:28,040 have rights. So that's, that's where that 660 00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:31,080 conversation begins. But, but I, I'm I'm afraid I 661 00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:35,400 agree that that state that that that state of Israel actually 662 00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:38,960 does have no right to exist as it's currently constituted. 663 00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:41,520 Now what you do with the people that live there, that's a 664 00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:44,880 different question. But the entity itself does not 665 00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:47,640 have a right to exist. Is it would be my personal 666 00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:52,320 opinion because it is the creation of of the of British 667 00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:55,960 manipulation. Are there other examples do you 668 00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:57,760 think? I mean, obviously they are. 669 00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:01,560 Sorry, let me rephrase that. What other examples are similar 670 00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:03,680 to to Israel? I think South Africa is quite 671 00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:11,400 different. Because we are talking about 672 00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:14,120 Empire and the expansion. No, I mean, you could look, 673 00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:17,880 look, Jeremy, you could argue that every border in Africa was 674 00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:20,480 a creation of empire and that it's all fake. 675 00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:23,920 And, you know, and I think, I think that I think that there is 676 00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:29,760 very much an argument for saying to people, well, you know, this 677 00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:34,720 border was drawn in order to inflamed tensions between 678 00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:38,680 people's tribal groups, whatever it happens to be in Africa. 679 00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:42,320 If we're taking Africa as an example. 680 00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:45,600 And, and we need to say to people, you know, what, what's 681 00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:48,040 your view of this? Do you feel that you're part of 682 00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:50,200 the Zulu nation or some other? I mean, I, I don't know the 683 00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:54,080 names of, of many of the, the, the, the nations in, in Africa. 684 00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:57,560 But the question is, do do those borders get redrawn or do people 685 00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:02,720 now have some kind of feeling of, of connection to the entity 686 00:44:02,720 --> 00:44:05,360 that, that that there happened to be surrounded by? 687 00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:08,440 But that happens through conversation rather than 688 00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:11,440 conquest at this point. It would would be how I would 689 00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:15,080 argue for it. US also. 690 00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:20,640 Well, the United States, you know, you know, no matter how 691 00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:25,400 you look at it, the United States has a lot of things to be 692 00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:27,160 proud of. It's got a lot of things to be 693 00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:30,640 absolutely ashamed of. And, and the effective genocide 694 00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:35,240 of of the native peoples is and the continuing suppression of 695 00:44:35,240 --> 00:44:37,840 those peoples is something that has to be addressed. 696 00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:40,360 It's I think there's no question about that. 697 00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:42,640 The question is what, what you do about it? 698 00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:48,960 That starts with a conversation. And it's not about sort of, you 699 00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:52,800 know, the, the, the, the types of, of reparations that we're 700 00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:55,240 talking about. It's, it's how to look into the 701 00:44:55,240 --> 00:44:58,000 future and what, what, what happens in the future. 702 00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:00,480 It's, I think what's happened has happened. 703 00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:04,320 And, and you don't solve that problem by just necessarily just 704 00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:07,400 by throwing money at the issue. Because if you just if you throw 705 00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:12,240 money at the issue but don't resolve the fundamental problems 706 00:45:12,240 --> 00:45:16,680 that exist, then then you're not actually solving anything. 707 00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:20,840 But this goes back to something that you have said a number of 708 00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:25,960 times, Mike, that we need to take responsibility firstly at 709 00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:29,000 our, at our individual level and then in our family level and 710 00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:31,200 then our community level. Because when we have those 711 00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:36,120 conversations on, on the ground level, that is where we have 712 00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:37,880 influence. We we don't really have 713 00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:39,880 influence over what's happening at the top. 714 00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:49,160 We don't have direct influence. But if you know, I've said, I've 715 00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:56,800 said many times that that the top, whatever that is, has no 716 00:45:56,800 --> 00:46:00,960 direct capability to control world affairs. 717 00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:06,080 It has to use layers, various layers of middle management, no? 718 00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:09,720 I'm sorry, what I'm saying is, what I'm saying is that the the 719 00:46:09,720 --> 00:46:13,600 expansion of various empires has never come from people on the 720 00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:16,080 ground, has come from the top using the people on the ground. 721 00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:19,960 That's right. So, so yeah, so we've got to 722 00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:23,440 have a we've got to recognise that and and make a decision 723 00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:26,560 about whether we want to whether we want to be involved in that 724 00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:28,640 or not. And the same goes for whether we 725 00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:31,000 want to go to fight in a war. For example, the, the, the 726 00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:33,120 government of the day says, well, we're going to have a war 727 00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:38,760 with country X. And so you've all got to join up 728 00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:40,800 and you've all got to get involved and whatnot. 729 00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:44,160 Well, you know, if we look at the the first and Second World 730 00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:47,440 wars, there were a few people that were not prepared to, to do 731 00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:49,680 that. And they, they found various 732 00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:52,920 ways of some of them in the First World War didn't survive 733 00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:56,000 as a result, because that was something that was viewed very 734 00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:59,200 dimly by the state. The Second World War still 735 00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:01,280 viewed pretty dimly, but at least they weren't shooting 736 00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:04,000 anybody as far as I'm aware. Correct me if I'm wrong, 737 00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:10,880 Charles, but you know, countries can only prosecute wars abroad 738 00:47:10,880 --> 00:47:15,360 if at this point in time if, if people are willing to go and 739 00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:18,560 take part in those. Of course, we're seeing that 740 00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:23,040 change in the next decade or two because more and more autonomous 741 00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:26,680 and and remotely controlled computer controlled AI 742 00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:29,160 controlled capability is being developed. 743 00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:32,760 And I think that is a step that we definitely don't want to be 744 00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:38,040 going in. We don't, but I, I'm, I'm, I 745 00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:39,960 think we should reserve judgement as to how that would 746 00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:43,200 actually play out. I think, I think there's, 747 00:47:43,240 --> 00:47:48,440 there's such a ridiculous sort of hyperbole surrounding all 748 00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:54,120 that kind of thing. And the, the notion that just 749 00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:57,960 because in well, what's become sort of conventional warfare, 750 00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:02,400 you know, if you, if you have control of the air and then you 751 00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:06,720 can begin to assert dominance over particular pieces of 752 00:48:06,720 --> 00:48:12,520 ground, whole ground, you know, and how you, you shape the, the 753 00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:13,480 battlespace. As a result. 754 00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:17,120 The idea that this can be done remotely or, and, or 755 00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:20,120 autonomously and that there can be an enduring effect, I think 756 00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:23,000 is, I think is a complete misreading of the situation. 757 00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:28,120 I think you can, you can create devastating sort of human 758 00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:31,120 casualty with these sorts of things. 759 00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:32,880 And I think, you know, we're specific, well, specifically 760 00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:35,120 talking about, let's say drones for the time being, because 761 00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:37,320 they're, they're in relative terms, sort of cheap and easy. 762 00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:41,600 But, but in terms of enduring effects, I, I would be, I'd be 763 00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:44,360 very, very doubtful about that. And I, I, OK, everywhere is 764 00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:46,040 different. Of course I would cite say 765 00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:56,080 Afghanistan over the period, you know, 2001 onwards and how, how 766 00:48:56,720 --> 00:49:03,720 utterly failed any effort was at what was called ground holding. 767 00:49:03,720 --> 00:49:09,160 The, the, the whole, the operations there that were 768 00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:15,880 described as being to, let's say, liberate and then take 769 00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:23,000 control of and, and and re redevelop a particular area 770 00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:27,400 where I think without exception, utterly hopeless it is. 771 00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:31,560 I think people have a massive tendency to underestimate how 772 00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:34,160 difficult this sort of thing is and what it really means. 773 00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:40,680 So I, I don't know whether beyond the the initial horror 774 00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:44,400 of, of casualties, I don't know whether any of these, whether 775 00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:47,960 any of these effects will be felt in a sustained context. 776 00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:50,440 I, I'm afraid I, I'd rather doubt it actually. 777 00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:53,640 But yeah, sorry, Jim, just go back. 778 00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:57,200 And just to qualify, I mean, not, not, I'm not suggesting I, 779 00:49:57,200 --> 00:50:00,360 I struck a, a personal nerve, but I, but I do think it's very 780 00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:02,680 important to make a distinction. No, no, no, no, but I, but I, 781 00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:06,360 but I, it's, it's, it's a point very, very much worth making 782 00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:10,960 because first of all, it brings out the sort of nebulous 783 00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:14,520 question of, well, I mean, you know, how far do we go back with 784 00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:17,560 all of this? And that's a perennial problem 785 00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:19,960 to a certain extent. SO11 wants to try to be 786 00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:22,880 consistent. And I think you're very, you 787 00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:25,200 know, he's very opposite to bring in Israel, for example. 788 00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:27,280 I think I think that that absolutely is a totally 789 00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:30,920 different situation, which we probably haven't got time to 790 00:50:30,920 --> 00:50:32,520 quite go into. But I'm sure that people have 791 00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:35,760 who've certainly followed UK column and and listened to this 792 00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:39,160 podcast for a period of time and understand exactly what I mean 793 00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:41,360 by that. And I think there is, there is 794 00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:47,040 absolutely a distinction to be drawn between the banking and 795 00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:55,680 corporate influences and then the state, state activities in 796 00:50:55,680 --> 00:51:01,880 terms of, you know, sort of colonial subsuming of, of 797 00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:07,080 countries into an empire. And then the, the settler 798 00:51:07,080 --> 00:51:12,720 communities who go there to, I would say, do, do the, the part 799 00:51:12,720 --> 00:51:17,080 that I was talking about earlier, which, which relies on 800 00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:20,480 mutual benefit, you know, you can't, you can't simply, I mean, 801 00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:27,000 by and large in, well, actually all, let's say all of the parts 802 00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:33,640 of Africa that were settled in by Europeans, agriculture was 803 00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:37,720 the, the, the absolutely the main practise of that. 804 00:51:37,720 --> 00:51:41,880 And you, you can't make that work without there being a, a 805 00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:48,040 benefit for the people who are, who are there, you know, nearby. 806 00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:51,680 So no, I, I do, and I don't mean to sound inconsistent, but I do 807 00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:53,160 absolutely make a distinction for that. 808 00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:57,000 And OK, yes, to an extent. I'm motivated to say that by my 809 00:51:57,000 --> 00:52:00,720 own, well, personal experiences in so far as how I've seen it 810 00:52:00,720 --> 00:52:03,520 play out. And, and from having spent, 811 00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:06,640 admittedly not in recent years, but having spent some time in 812 00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:10,600 South Africa in, you know, a few parts of the country and seen 813 00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:16,400 the relationship between the, the progeny of those settler 814 00:52:16,720 --> 00:52:18,320 communities, you know, effectively the, the 815 00:52:18,440 --> 00:52:20,720 relationship between white and black people with which I have 816 00:52:20,720 --> 00:52:23,880 absolutely no issue. I mean, the, we're always going 817 00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:25,320 to be able to find exceptions to that. 818 00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:28,880 But but the way in which those people rather alongside each 819 00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:32,040 other is, is, you know, it is, it is fantastic. 820 00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:33,640 I mean, it's, it's sort of it's heartwarming. 821 00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:35,360 And I don't mean that in a patronising sense. 822 00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:38,560 I mean, I'd be equally tonighted if people, if, if white people 823 00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:40,680 in the United Kingdom behave like that towards one another. 824 00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:43,920 But there's such a, there's such a level of sort of mutual love 825 00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:46,560 and respect. And I've seen that all over, you 826 00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:48,680 know, sort of southern and Eastern Africa where there are 827 00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:54,760 these still white, you know, the, the today's iteration of 828 00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:57,760 white settler communities. And they would not have been 829 00:52:57,760 --> 00:53:01,880 able to survive had they not been acting in such fashion. 830 00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:06,760 That meant that their operations were were working and perceived 831 00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:10,560 to be working in the eyes of of people who, let's say, had been 832 00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:12,560 there first. But as I say, they'll be falling 833 00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:14,440 into the world. How far back do you go thing? 834 00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:17,240 Because ultimately we've all come from somewhere else. 835 00:53:18,040 --> 00:53:20,240 So I think that's, I think that's worth saying. 836 00:53:20,240 --> 00:53:22,880 And also we have to, we do have to be quite specific about these 837 00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:23,920 things. Because if funnily enough, 838 00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:28,760 actually a conversation I was having yesterday was about just 839 00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:32,240 kind of interesting distinction between say the way that that 840 00:53:32,240 --> 00:53:35,440 manifested in Africa as opposed to in India. 841 00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:41,160 There is, there is a popular in terms of people, there is a 842 00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:44,640 legacy in say India, but it's but it's completely different. 843 00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:47,240 You know, the Anglo Indian community is not in any way 844 00:53:47,240 --> 00:53:51,680 comparable to what has remained in Africa. 845 00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:55,560 And that that is, that is a, you know, a sort of talking point. 846 00:53:55,560 --> 00:53:58,640 It's, it's an interesting thing. So I don't think 1 can be 847 00:53:58,840 --> 00:54:01,000 generic or universal about any of these things. 848 00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:06,000 So to be very specific about South Africa, no, I mean, I, you 849 00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:08,920 know, you can point to isolated incidents, but no, I mean, 850 00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:15,160 essentially I see no issue with, with the, the, the settler 851 00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:18,560 practise and, and mentality. And I'm sure there will be 852 00:54:18,560 --> 00:54:22,360 people who, who will react against that and that and that's 853 00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:24,400 completely fine. But that is the way I see it. 854 00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:30,000 Just quickly as we come in for a landing, nice way to circle back 855 00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:31,880 to the start of the conversation. 856 00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:34,120 We're chatting about embassies and consulates, etcetera. 857 00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:42,600 Charles, do you think that that countries should have visa 858 00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:45,080 applications? Hong Kong for example, doesn't 859 00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:47,560 require a visa for most countries, but like coming to 860 00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:52,720 the UKII require, I have to apply for a visa, which means 861 00:54:52,720 --> 00:54:57,000 that I can be rejected. Yeah, I mean that that that's a 862 00:54:57,000 --> 00:55:00,480 really good question. And it's something in which or 863 00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:04,920 at least examining that gives gives a really good insight into 864 00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:10,440 the terrific small minded, small mindedness and pettiness of 865 00:55:12,240 --> 00:55:17,080 ministers in the British government and indeed the sorts 866 00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:24,200 of corporate leanings on them. Because it is, it's a little bit 867 00:55:24,200 --> 00:55:26,720 like the sort of Trump tariffs. I mean, it's it's a kind of it's 868 00:55:26,720 --> 00:55:28,400 a tit for tat. And this been this has been 869 00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:30,600 going on forever. You know, a, a particular 870 00:55:30,600 --> 00:55:36,120 country will make a, make a new policy on the visa requirement 871 00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:39,880 or the entry charge for a British national to go to that 872 00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:41,520 country. And then the next thing you know 873 00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:43,440 that the, you know, the situation is being flipped the 874 00:55:43,440 --> 00:55:46,320 other way. So I think the whole thing is, 875 00:55:47,120 --> 00:55:51,080 is, is absurd. No, I, I personally, I don't 876 00:55:51,080 --> 00:55:52,760 think they should. I don't think there should be 877 00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:55,720 any requirement. I mean, I think we know now 878 00:55:55,920 --> 00:56:01,560 without biometric gulf, it is perfectly possible to keep, keep 879 00:56:01,560 --> 00:56:04,720 a record of somebody that goes into a country when they go 880 00:56:05,040 --> 00:56:08,920 across the border. And to, to, to put you through 881 00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:13,480 the process of, you know, all that investment of of sort of 882 00:56:13,480 --> 00:56:17,200 time and effort to say that, yes, you know, we, we think that 883 00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:19,600 it's appropriate that you come here and obviously, no, I mean, 884 00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:20,800 I think, I think that's completely wrong. 885 00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:23,680 And that, and that in a way that goes back to the heart of, of 886 00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:27,040 what we're talking about, which is this element of there being 887 00:56:27,040 --> 00:56:29,160 mutual respect between countries. 888 00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:31,280 And, and what really what, what does that say? 889 00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:35,280 What does it say if you're saying to 1 country icon, you 890 00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:37,360 know, and you come, we're not going to check anything, do what 891 00:56:37,360 --> 00:56:38,480 you like. And then to another, you're 892 00:56:38,480 --> 00:56:42,520 saying, no, we, we, we're going to do our level best to, to keep 893 00:56:42,520 --> 00:56:46,040 you out, but we still want to have, have access to all the 894 00:56:46,120 --> 00:56:48,680 good bits in your country. I mean, that's, that's a, that's 895 00:56:48,680 --> 00:56:50,400 a ridiculous message to be sending. 896 00:56:51,320 --> 00:56:53,400 I'm sure you agree, Mike. Absolutely. 897 00:56:55,200 --> 00:56:57,920 Good, there we go. Well with that in mind I still 898 00:56:57,920 --> 00:57:01,200 have to apply for a visa, but with some with some good fortune 899 00:57:01,320 --> 00:57:04,520 I won't be arrested and I'll see you chance in a couple of months 900 00:57:04,520 --> 00:57:06,280 time. Well, what I would say is good 901 00:57:06,280 --> 00:57:08,720 luck, good luck wherever you're coming into, whether it be 902 00:57:08,720 --> 00:57:10,840 Heathrow, well, whichever airport, good, good luck. 903 00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:15,240 I mean, this is it, you know, go back to the how all these things 904 00:57:15,240 --> 00:57:18,440 have collapsed. I mean, I, I, I know this sort 905 00:57:18,440 --> 00:57:23,600 of sounds silly in a way, but I am so embarrassed by the state 906 00:57:23,640 --> 00:57:28,880 of the larger, well, English airports and the way in which 907 00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:32,120 they treat people. It, it is appalling. 908 00:57:32,560 --> 00:57:37,760 And, and yet we have the temerity to, to, you know, in, 909 00:57:37,760 --> 00:57:43,920 in going back to the word that that Mike used to, to say that 910 00:57:43,920 --> 00:57:47,080 we can assist other countries with, with matters that they 911 00:57:47,080 --> 00:57:49,040 might not be able to manage themselves. 912 00:57:49,040 --> 00:57:52,400 We can't run a flipping airport. Obviously, you know, it is a 913 00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:53,560 joke. I think we've talked about this 914 00:57:53,560 --> 00:57:55,040 before. We probably have and sorry to 915 00:57:55,840 --> 00:58:00,160 Chuck that in now, but, but, but you know, really, if you're 916 00:58:00,160 --> 00:58:02,720 going to be put, put through all that to get a visa, you should 917 00:58:02,720 --> 00:58:05,960 be impressed by what you see. You should, you should feel that 918 00:58:05,960 --> 00:58:09,360 that's that, that you'll sort of recompensed in kind. 919 00:58:09,360 --> 00:58:12,160 And, and, and I'm afraid that's just, you know, that's not how 920 00:58:12,160 --> 00:58:14,440 it is anyway, obviously to be enjoyed. 921 00:58:14,640 --> 00:58:17,920 Make sure you're you're overwhelmingly cheerful and see 922 00:58:17,920 --> 00:58:23,120 how many responses, appropriate responses you get from anyone in 923 00:58:23,120 --> 00:58:25,880 in the airports you go through in this country, I would say. 924 00:58:26,560 --> 00:58:28,720 My Controls Thank you for joining me in the Weekly.