1 00:00:38,670 --> 00:00:45,320 I received an interesting mail after my discussion with Steve 2 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:50,440 Falconer, who believes in evolutionary theory. 3 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:54,080 This idea of creation versus evolution constantly comes up. 4 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:56,200 I don't know if you've guys have guys have noticed. 5 00:00:56,400 --> 00:00:58,160 It's a fascinating conversation. What? 6 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:02,520 Fascinates me is, is that this has become another sort of 7 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:09,480 Inflexion point, another area of division and that, you know, 8 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:16,680 it's it's almost as if you can't have evolution that and creation 9 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:20,440 as being features of the same mechanism. 10 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:33,120 I think that the idea that that Darwinism is, is somehow the 11 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:41,800 full picture of evolution is, is somehow, I mean, that's, that's 12 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:45,680 a separate thing again, in my opinion, because Darwin and 13 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:50,000 Darwinism and survival of the fittest is of course connected 14 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:53,120 very strongly with the eugenics movement and rightly so. 15 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:59,440 But again, it doesn't preclude the possibility that that that's 16 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:02,480 the only evolutionary mechanism that exists. 17 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:09,800 So you know, I I struggle with the the idea that these should 18 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:14,160 be mutually exclusive ideas. Creation, creation and and 19 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:17,840 evolution. Yeah, I think, I think that's a 20 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:21,680 good start point. I mean, I would say going back 21 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:29,320 to the it's being a point of Inflexion as with this and many 22 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:33,280 other of the I wasn't there. So I don't know topics. 23 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:37,880 I I'm perfectly happy not knowing to which people will be 24 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:43,120 leaping off the sofa saying but we've been lied to or have we 25 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:46,800 been lied to or, or a variant on that theme. 26 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:50,760 And yes, there is that possibility. 27 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:54,960 But if you make an issue of it and you make it matter, then it 28 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:57,320 will become the problem. And if you don't make an issue 29 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:00,080 of it and you don't make it matter, then it doesn't become 30 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:04,480 the problem. So ultimately it is up to you to 31 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:07,440 define exactly what it is you believe. 32 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:11,000 I think the area specifically is totally fascinating. 33 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:18,640 And I think even there are, I mean, you get into problematic 34 00:03:18,640 --> 00:03:23,840 areas in terms of taxonomy and whatnot, but it's quite easy to 35 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:29,720 observe that people within our lifetimes have changed in 36 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:34,880 varying degrees. You can see the effects of what 37 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:38,920 I think what what are poorer diet or things being introduced 38 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:43,200 into water supplies of this and the other as to just just basic 39 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:47,160 features like like the shape of the shape of somebody's face. 40 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:50,680 For example, with regard to whether or not they breathe 41 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:53,480 through their nose or their mouth and what it is that might 42 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:55,000 have led to that in the 1st place. 43 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:58,360 Things like the amount of hair that people have on their heads 44 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:00,760 or on their bodies. Those sorts of things definitely 45 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:03,640 do change. So whether one counts that as 46 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:07,800 evolution, I'm not certain. I suppose that's that's up to 47 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:10,520 the individual debater. But the point is that things 48 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:14,000 definitely do change. And you see it, I mean, I see it 49 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:17,000 a lot with livestock. You absolutely get different 50 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:20,560 generations of livestock that exhibit slightly different. 51 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:23,640 Well, they're actually both things, either behavioural 52 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:28,240 tendencies or body shape or characteristics, physical 53 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:30,800 characteristics. So, so stuff does change. 54 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:33,440 I don't think 1 can really deny that. 55 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:39,440 I think the perennial question of, well, if something came from 56 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:42,760 something else and the something else still exists in the form 57 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:47,280 that it was originally and why did some change and some didn't? 58 00:04:47,280 --> 00:04:50,080 I think that's, that's the that's the big one. 59 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:54,600 But then again, why should we? It's, it's funny really, because 60 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:58,400 we're, we're told trust the science and we all go ha, ha, 61 00:04:58,400 --> 00:04:59,920 ha. Why would we do that? 62 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:03,720 Because scientists are all corrupt and at the same time we 63 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:08,360 want to cling to a certain extent to that very same 64 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:11,760 science. I mean, do do we really, do we 65 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:15,920 need to do that or do we just need to be happier in our own 66 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:18,880 minds that we believe one thing rather than the other? 67 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:22,200 Going back to the beginning, as I say, when it concerns an issue 68 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:25,960 that you cannot possibly yourself resolve, you might 69 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:30,440 easily be able to find credible evidence of something that 70 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:33,480 points to something else and indeed vice versa. 71 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:35,960 But you ultimately, you can never know and we're not going 72 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:39,480 to be around long enough to to see any of this play out, 73 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:42,280 presumably. And aside from other thing else 74 00:05:42,280 --> 00:05:48,680 this this topic, there's no relationship to the issues of 75 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:52,560 the day in the sense that, you know, whether whether we were 76 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:58,360 created or we evolved is irrelevant to whether somebody's 77 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:01,440 going to drop a nuclear bomb in our heads in the next two years. 78 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:04,360 So, you know, we shouldn't really be fighting about this. 79 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:07,160 No, indeed. But I think that's what I mean 80 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:09,160 about all the other things, all the other talking points that 81 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:11,680 get dragged into it, but mostly Christianity. 82 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:15,080 And well, if if you're going to start talking about evolution, 83 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:17,720 then you're then you're dismissing the what? 84 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:22,200 You know what the Bible sets out at a stroke, and then that means 85 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:24,920 that that's opening the floodgates for Christians to be 86 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:27,400 wiped off the face of the earth and, and, and all of that sort 87 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:29,760 of thing. So I, I see, I see exactly why 88 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:33,160 people do choose it as a point. I'm just not sure there's 89 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:35,040 there's much to be gained from doing so. 90 00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:39,640 No, but it is part of the the market of ideas. 91 00:06:40,280 --> 00:06:42,760 And I see these in the in the comments like someone so Tim 92 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:46,040 Noakes might say on my show. Yeah, well humans have evolved 93 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:51,080 to to eat meat right? And then someone will go ha ha 94 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:53,280 lol he said evolved. Contact him. 95 00:06:53,280 --> 00:06:55,920 Seriously. Like I say, you, you choose 96 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:57,280 whether or not it matters to you. 97 00:06:57,280 --> 00:06:59,120 I mean, I, yeah, I agree to a point. 98 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:01,360 It matters. I agree that we should talk 99 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:03,960 about all these things. Nothing should be off limits 100 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:05,600 completely. But The thing is, if you're 101 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:09,080 going to question everything, I think you'll only drive yourself 102 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:11,120 mad if you're not prepared to accept that sometimes you're not 103 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:14,760 going to get the answer. So yeah, I mean, I similarly, I 104 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:15,920 would absolutely question everything. 105 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:18,160 And I think and, and actually going on Tim Noakes, you know, 106 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:23,000 about evolving to eat meat. Are you sure that's what he 107 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:24,200 said? I would have thought it was the 108 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:28,000 other way around that that we were designed to eat meat And 109 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:32,920 and some people have evolved or their guts have changed in order 110 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:36,280 to tolerate certain things. I don't remember specifically, 111 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:38,360 but I mean you get what I'm saying the the the point. 112 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:40,600 I do, but it, yes, I do. But I think it's really 113 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:44,560 interesting actually, because it does, it does provide an insight 114 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:47,320 and it's largely it's not discussed. 115 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:49,640 I mean, I I've not heard Tim talk about it, but it but this 116 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:55,800 pertains to blood type and and diet and the inextricable link 117 00:07:55,800 --> 00:08:00,120 between that and geography and what what what available food 118 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:02,040 sources were. But ultimately I'm straying well 119 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:04,920 into territory that I can't possibly substantiate because 120 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:08,160 because I wasn't there. So, yeah, I mean, it's totally 121 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:11,520 fascinating, but the, but the, you know, what is it that people 122 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:13,200 want to do ultimately? They want to take it all the way 123 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:16,520 back to creation. And how is it that we're here at 124 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:21,240 all? And and, and I find it, I don't 125 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:24,120 mean this at all scornfully, but I do find it rather laughable 126 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:27,240 that people will come down so definitively one side or the 127 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:29,800 other because how on earth can they possibly know? 128 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:32,720 Because there's always the question. 129 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:34,400 It doesn't matter which way you go. 130 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:37,400 Yeah, but but what happened before that and what happened 131 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:40,880 before that? So, so yeah, fascinating to talk 132 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:44,640 about, but how, how, how on earth does one ever know? 133 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:48,280 And I think the, the, the real danger here, Jeremy, is, is 134 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:56,040 that, and we see this so much the, the, and maybe Mike Eden's 135 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:59,160 expressing this a little bit. And I think it's dangerous this, 136 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:04,000 this idea that everything is a lie, everything is a lie. 137 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:08,320 And therefore anything that we're told is untrue and 138 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:12,040 therefore the earth is flat, whatever, whatever your 139 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:16,200 particular thing is, that becomes an ideology at that 140 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:18,120 point. That becomes something which is 141 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:22,800 not based on a, a, a genuine search for the truth. 142 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:26,200 That's, that's a conclusion is reached and it's immovable. 143 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:28,160 It's an immovable object at that point. 144 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:33,440 And in fact, it becomes the height of hypocrisy because many 145 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:38,480 people will say that, well, science is scientism, that it's, 146 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:42,000 it's become something which is no longer an, an investigation 147 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:45,600 of, of the life around us. That's it's reached conclusions 148 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:48,360 which are driving policy. And to some degree, I'm not 149 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:51,440 denying that. But the point is that as soon as 150 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:55,280 you say, therefore everything's a lie and therefore the earth is 151 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:59,600 flat, then you have you're falling into exactly the trap 152 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:02,280 that you're accusing the opposition of doing, your 153 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:05,240 opposition of doing. And that is that is dangerous. 154 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:09,120 We've got, in my opinion, we've got to be absolutely challenging 155 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:14,160 our own viewpoints first before we start throwing the 156 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:19,520 allegations of anybody else. Yes, I mean that is sort of an 157 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:23,040 undercurrent. You know, the the idea that 158 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:27,720 anything that is an established view should be questioned. 159 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:31,640 I mean, as Nick Hudson says, any big event that requires a big 160 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:39,280 solution is almost always a lie. But but equally that, that same 161 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:42,880 rigour, that's that same determination that that we 162 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:46,560 challenge climate change and we challenge everything that, that 163 00:10:46,560 --> 00:10:49,960 the scientific community says, we've got to apply that same 164 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:52,680 rigour to, to every position that we take. 165 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:59,760 And and that's where perhaps we don't, you know, we don't fulfil 166 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:03,960 that, that obligation as well as we might. 167 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:07,720 But then who do you trust? I think that was kind of what 168 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:12,080 Mike was asking also. I don't think it's a question. 169 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:15,480 It's not a question of trust. And, and this, this is, this is 170 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:17,920 actually fundamental to the whole discussion because, 171 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:23,080 because this idea of who do you trust is, is something which is 172 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:26,360 being heavily promoted by, by governments everywhere. 173 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:31,680 Because, you know, and, and my view very strongly is that as 174 00:11:31,680 --> 00:11:34,840 soon as you put your trust in someone, you're switching your 175 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:37,840 brain off. So you put your trust in the 176 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:42,440 BBC, You don't need to question anything anymore because the BBC 177 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:47,000 said so you don't have to think. And, and I'm sorry, you're going 178 00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:48,720 to have to edit this out, but I need to cough. 179 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:56,040 I do apologise. But so, so you know, we, we 180 00:11:56,120 --> 00:12:03,200 absolutely, as far with respect to sort of public people that 181 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:06,600 are speaking publicly or, or any kind of institution that's 182 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:09,280 speaking publicly or the scientific community or the 183 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:12,720 media, whatever it happens to be, we should not be trusting 184 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:18,280 any of those people as as a sort of blanket reaction. 185 00:12:18,680 --> 00:12:21,520 And we should be absolutely asking questions, whether those 186 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:26,440 questions are about creation or or evolution or whatever it 187 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:32,200 happens to be that we start asking questions and ourselves 188 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:34,240 should be the target of that as well, as I say. 189 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:38,480 Yeah, there is a very big problem of people in the 190 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:42,560 alternative space of falling into the identical trap where 191 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:46,080 they create yet again, A1 and 0 scenario. 192 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:49,400 Well, if it if it's allowed on YouTube, therefore it can't be 193 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:53,080 true or trusted. And that in itself is, you know, 194 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:56,240 it's a slippery slope. Yeah, and, and the mainstream 195 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:58,720 media people, people will say, well, it was, it was in the 196 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:00,400 mainstream media, so it can't be true. 197 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:03,200 Well, that's not true. It can be true. 198 00:13:03,560 --> 00:13:06,800 And, and of course it's that is our challenge is working out 199 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:09,000 what's the truth and what's the propaganda. 200 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:11,080 And it is a challenge. I don't want to underestimate 201 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:13,840 that. And, and again, we should not 202 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:18,120 trust blindly what anybody says, whether that be the BBC or the 203 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:23,560 UK column or whomever, but we should not, in my opinion, be 204 00:13:23,560 --> 00:13:27,640 going around just immediately assuming that everything that's 205 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:31,200 seen from a certain source is a pile of nonsense because it's 206 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:34,400 not always the case. Yeah, I mean, I do. 207 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:38,040 I do think The Who to trust is very problematic. 208 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:42,680 I mean, look at look at how that was manipulated with the COVID 209 00:13:42,680 --> 00:13:46,120 jabs. I like David Beckham, so I'll go 210 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:50,440 and get a jab because he said so, for example, ad infinitum. 211 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:57,840 So I think it should always be the, the information rather than 212 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:01,600 the person that presented it, which is, you know, we get into 213 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:04,760 the Hitler like dogs thing. I can't remember quite how that 214 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:07,320 goes, but I think you know what I'm talking about. 215 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:12,840 So yes, the, the, the ultimately you trust yourself that, that 216 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:16,320 and, and actually it's rather more than that. 217 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:20,480 I think you're in real trouble if you can't trust yourself in 218 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:24,120 in all respects. And that is a really, really 219 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:30,120 important point because it, it really does dictate where you 220 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:33,480 are able to lead your life. And it doesn't just concern sort 221 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:39,200 of information, but it's, it's an ability to, to live and 222 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:42,440 thrive outside of all the sorts of things that we do talk about. 223 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:44,280 Because otherwise you get bogged down by them. 224 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:49,200 And ultimately that displays a lack of trust in yourself. 225 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:53,760 So yes, you might have been lied to about this than the other. 226 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:58,920 However, you need to convert that knowledge into a positive. 227 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:02,560 Or at least I would say that's what I try to do to it or with 228 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:04,960 it. You, you, you use that with 229 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:08,760 which to arm yourself rather than continually considering 230 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:12,240 that having been lied to is something you should consider as 231 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:15,600 a battering. Because, frankly, it isn't. 232 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:18,760 I don't know any person who believes. 233 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:21,040 I know some people who believe that Earth is flat. 234 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:26,880 Not one of them got the jab right, but I know people who 235 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:32,240 believe in NASA's narrative and and got the jab, if that makes 236 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:33,640 sense. So in other words, I see a 237 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:37,000 degree just in my immediate circles I see a degree of 238 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:41,760 critical thinking, which I think is a good thing, even if their 239 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:44,680 views are are possibly preposterous. 240 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:47,600 I, I'm going to say I don't agree with that. 241 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:52,080 And, and because I know people that believe in NASA and also 242 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:56,560 didn't get the job. So, you know, the thing, the 243 00:15:56,560 --> 00:16:01,840 thing about, if you look at, at the thing about Richard Dawkins 244 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:04,960 and people like Richard Dawkins is that they are, they are 245 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:11,440 totally ideologically based just, and I would say that there 246 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:15,160 are people that are rabid creationists that are also 247 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:20,760 absolutely ideologically based. And the problem is that I think 248 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:25,560 that if you're, if you're suggesting that people who were 249 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:30,440 falling on the creationist camp didn't take the job through some 250 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:33,320 kind of form of critical thinking, I would say that 251 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:36,200 that's not the case. That in fact, they, are they, 252 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:41,880 they, they didn't take the job because somebody that, that was 253 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:45,320 a, an influencer in the creationist space on YouTube 254 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:48,000 said that they shouldn't and that there was no critical 255 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:51,600 thinking in it at all. It was just some influencer said 256 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:55,480 that you shouldn't do this. I, I think that I think that 257 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:59,360 what we're looking at there are, are pretty core extremes. 258 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:02,960 And I think that there are people on both sides of that, of 259 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:07,520 that argument that are occupying the influencer space that are 260 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:11,480 actually probably agents of the state. 261 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:14,880 I think Dawkins is 1. I think that that there's some 262 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:17,720 people on the, on the Flat Earth, in the Flat Earth 263 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:19,960 community that that appear to be as well. 264 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:26,599 And so I think, you know, if you're, if you're going to be a 265 00:17:26,599 --> 00:17:28,880 critical thinker, you've got to be a critical thinker. 266 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:33,760 And and that means not falling into the trap of ideology and, 267 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:37,040 and many people blindly do that, unfortunately. 268 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:41,280 Yes, I have seen that and I can confirm. 269 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:46,400 I do know people who believe NASA's narratives and didn't get 270 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:51,360 the jab because I don't think, I don't think really that people 271 00:17:51,360 --> 00:17:55,600 who are caught up in everything that's mainstream are more 272 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:59,240 critically minded than I think people who are sceptical. 273 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:01,040 I think being sceptical is a good thing. 274 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:04,560 Yeah, sceptical. Sceptical is a good thing, 275 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:06,720 absolutely. It is a good thing, no question 276 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:11,000 about that. But not to the degree of 277 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:18,080 absolutism, an absolute sceptic, and therefore everything is 278 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:23,120 false that that actually can land us in very dangerous 279 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:28,040 territory. Isn't absolutism sometimes a 280 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:33,320 good thing? Can you give an example? 281 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:37,280 Well, I think that a rape is always a bad thing. 282 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:41,080 I, I'm pretty absolute in that, in that, in that rationale, I, I 283 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:44,440 can't find a, a positive reason for, for, for for rape. 284 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:49,360 Well, you're in tricky territory there, really, when you look at 285 00:18:49,360 --> 00:18:51,760 the law. I mean, I don't know what it is 286 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:55,800 in South Africa, but but here the, you know, you, you come up 287 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:59,000 against all sorts of technicalities with regard to 288 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:02,200 age and the inability to give consent. 289 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:05,440 And you know, I mean, I'm, I'm not obviously, obviously not 290 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:08,960 advocating for rape, but I mean, there is, there is nuance there. 291 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:14,920 No, but rape is effectively it's a violation of of a woman's 292 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:17,920 generally a woman's OK. But but is it? 293 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:22,160 Is it if if the very next day it wasn't rape because she was a 294 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:24,760 year older? Well then she wasn't raped. 295 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:26,920 Sure. No, but she was. 296 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:28,520 I mean, this is, this is the point I'm making. 297 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:33,280 According to law, she was raped because she's a minor because of 298 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:35,080 her age. So you know. 299 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:37,600 Like if she was 15 and then she turned 16. 300 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:41,160 Exactly, for example, the the the young guy that ended up in 301 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:45,880 prison in Saudi Arabia for for a guts of a year because he had a 302 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:49,960 sexual relationship of some on holiday with I think he was 18 303 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:53,320 and she was 17 and and the the age of consent was 18. 304 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:57,640 So so he was, you know, that was statutory rape and therefore he 305 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:02,480 spent time in prison and got released early because of I 306 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:06,480 can't remember which there was a there was a festival that that 307 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:10,000 traditionally people are released from prison at just 308 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:12,600 recently. So so you know, there is there 309 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:15,040 is nuance there. I mean, I think if what you're 310 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:19,480 saying is that. You know, under, under a very 311 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:24,880 relatively narrow definition of of what that is, that somebody, 312 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:31,200 you know, carries out that act with someone who was absolutely 313 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:35,440 not agreeing or consenting to that, then then that is 314 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:38,240 absolutely wrong under all circumstances of consent. 315 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:43,000 Wasn't there. But you know, I think you'd be, 316 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:51,240 I think you'd be struggling to find any thing which could be 317 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:57,480 absolutely considered in absolute terms to be one way or 318 00:20:57,480 --> 00:20:59,520 the other. It there's always nuance. 319 00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:06,200 My comment was about a moral judgement, not about what the 320 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:07,920 law states, because the law is fickle. 321 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:13,240 The changes over time, but the idea that somebody's body, a 322 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:17,160 bodily autonomy, has been violated against their will is 323 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:21,800 always a bad thing. How? 324 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:23,520 Can it be a good thing? How can? 325 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:27,680 How can it ever be a good thing? No, I I would probably agree 326 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:30,080 with that. If, if, if, if it's against 327 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:32,480 someone's will. If anything happens against 328 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:34,880 someone's will. But yeah, but you see, this is 329 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:38,840 problematic because I, I would agree with you in terms of rape. 330 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,160 But then if you're if you're suggesting that there's an 331 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:44,640 absolute where bodily autonomy is concerned, then I think 332 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:50,080 that's again problematic because there are situations in which 333 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:54,760 you might see that somebody is about to harm themselves in some 334 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:58,080 way, for example, present themselves for a COVID jab. 335 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:04,560 And you might seek to interpose yourself or take them away from 336 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:08,680 that situation, or destroy the you know, whatever it is you are 337 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:10,480 interfering with their bodily autonomy. 338 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:12,800 No, but that's not rape, obviously. 339 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:15,400 No, no, no, I'm, I, I know, I know it's not. 340 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:20,600 But I mean, the issue was was one of bodily autonomy, wasn't 341 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:21,880 it? Yes, but in the sense, but in 342 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:24,280 the in the case of rape, it's obviously, but more than bodily 343 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:28,600 autonomy, it's stuck. It's it's without getting into 344 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:31,480 the graphics. Well, no, but I mean that but 345 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:33,000 but one has to get into the graphics. 346 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:35,000 I mean, this is this is part of the issue with it because it 347 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:39,200 certainly again in this country. Yeah, OK, All right, maybe we 348 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:41,520 are getting into it. But but but you know, a rape can 349 00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:46,960 only be committed by a man because it it involves the use 350 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:48,560 of a penis and. Well. 351 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:54,040 Obviously that's not true. I mean, what I mean is obviously 352 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:55,680 a man can be raped. That's what I'm saying. 353 00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:59,480 Yes, a man can be raped, but it has to be by another man. 354 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:06,520 So anyway, that that that is a bit of a legal rabbit hole, but 355 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:09,680 but still the point, the point is, is again, it is very 356 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:14,320 difficult, I think to be to be absolute about things, but about 357 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:17,520 about anything. Yes, I agree with you 358 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:19,520 specifically with rapes, specifically with bodily 359 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:23,120 autonomy and and the obviously fundamental issue of consent. 360 00:23:23,120 --> 00:23:26,480 Yes, absolutely. But but the, but the problem is 361 00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:30,600 you're, you're, you're making that case on the basis of the 362 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:32,680 bodily autonomy thing. And then and then you move to a 363 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:34,640 different situation like I just suggest. 364 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:37,440 And then in actual fact, bodily autonomy becomes something where 365 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:43,560 there is a bit of wiggle room. So do you think that being 366 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:47,680 principled is not equivalent to absolutism? 367 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:58,600 That is a good question. I think that being a principled 368 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:02,000 is not equivalent to absolutism because because I think that 369 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:07,360 having principles doesn't rule out the nuance that we're 370 00:24:07,360 --> 00:24:10,760 talking about here. You have, you know, I mean, I, 371 00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:15,920 I, I would struggle to find a, an example of of someone having 372 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:19,600 principles that that were absolutely absolutist. 373 00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:26,520 Well, let's just say you believe that cheating on your wife is a 374 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:29,240 terrible idea. Well, well, hang. 375 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:31,440 On a minute that that, but that's not a principle that 376 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:33,640 that's a, that's a specific action. 377 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:37,040 I mean, the principle is one of trust or betrayal, isn't it? 378 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:42,120 So. So in principle, you would never 379 00:24:42,120 --> 00:24:45,800 betray somebody's trust or specifically your wife's trust. 380 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:51,360 I don't. Know is that a Yeah, maybe 381 00:24:51,360 --> 00:24:52,480 you're right maybe it's not a principle. 382 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:54,360 Maybe it's a value. I don't know. 383 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:56,920 I guess it comes down to know how we define these these terms. 384 00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:57,880 What do you think? That's what I. 385 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:02,440 Mean, but let's say, let's say the principle is the betrayal or 386 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:04,640 the betrayal, specifically the betrayal of trust. 387 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:07,320 You might well have that as a principle. 388 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:10,400 I mean, you know that that I would say is a, is a good 389 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:13,600 principle with which to sort of conduct yourself. 390 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:19,320 But you may find situations in which that you feel that 391 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:24,000 actually you would need to override that principle for, you 392 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,080 know, I hate to use the word, but for a, a greater good or, or 393 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:31,600 to, to meet another end. So the, the, the, you know, 394 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:35,960 principles can of course, in effect come into conflict with 395 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:37,520 one another. If you're, if you're 396 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:39,600 particularly, I mean, you know, we talked a lot about sort of 397 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:43,960 family context, but, but I mean, but you might consider that 398 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,560 shielding somebody from a certain piece of information 399 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,520 because you thought it would be better for them not to know it 400 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:52,040 or not to see it, particularly if it's going to be traumatic 401 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:54,640 that that could constitute a betrayal of trust. 402 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,920 So you've got, you've sort of got 2 principles in conflict 403 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:00,440 with one another. So it is it is very difficult to 404 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:02,360 be absolutist about any of these things. 405 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:06,280 All right. Another example is taking the 406 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:08,720 life of an innocent person murder, right? 407 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:11,680 I mean, I don't think that's a good idea under any 408 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:17,440 circumstance, unless is that absolutist. 409 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,880 Well, well, hold on, define innocent person. 410 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:24,440 Is there any such thing? So see this conversation that a 411 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:27,360 lot of this conversation is about definitions and so on. 412 00:26:27,360 --> 00:26:33,400 But but but the bottom line here is what is an innocent person? 413 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,880 And if if you're taking that innocent person's life, that 414 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:40,080 might be perceived as murder, but if you're doing it in order 415 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:45,480 to prevent a a more significant wrong, then is it wrong? 416 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:51,040 I'm just not certain that that that life is black and white in 417 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:54,000 these terms that it's possible to be absolutist ever. 418 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:59,320 I think there's always you also. And actually, you know, jury 419 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:02,760 trials, for example, has been the topic of conversation 420 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:04,360 recently. I don't can't remember whether 421 00:27:04,360 --> 00:27:08,440 we were talking about it at some point, but but you know, there 422 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:15,120 there is this effort to remove juries from the judicial system 423 00:27:15,120 --> 00:27:19,440 in the United Kingdom. But, and part of the reason is 424 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:25,600 because juries have still have the power in the UK to look at a 425 00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:31,280 piece at a law, look at a, a, a, an ethical situation, a lawful, 426 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:35,080 a legal situation and decide that under this particular set 427 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:38,400 of circumstances, that law does not apply, that that law is bad 428 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:42,160 law under these circumstances. It's called annulment by jury. 429 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:47,840 And this is, this is, this is fundamental part of of the way 430 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:51,000 that the judicial system is supposed to work in the UK. 431 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:58,720 So my point is that that, that, that par is there because 432 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:02,160 there's a recognition in the judicial system, in the law, in 433 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,720 the legal system that, that there are no absolutes. 434 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,560 And this is one of the dangers of, of AI in my opinion, because 435 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:13,880 you're bringing absolutes into the picture and you're saying 436 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,360 computer is never wrong. The computer knows absolutely 437 00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:22,640 what the, what the truth is and, and there's no wiggle room 438 00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:25,800 therefore at all. That's, that's where the danger 439 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:29,000 lies, I think. I think the the idea that that 440 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:32,760 there are absolutes in life is is just, it's, it's just wrong. 441 00:28:33,360 --> 00:28:38,920 OK, so, so the the argument you're making is that there are 442 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:43,760 no absolutes in life and if somebody attempts to have an 443 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:49,600 absolute or an absolutist view, it's it's potentially dangerous. 444 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:55,440 Yeah, I think it is because yes, I think it is. 445 00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:57,120 I don't know. I don't know what else to say 446 00:28:57,120 --> 00:28:59,080 about that. I think, I think it is dangerous 447 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:02,840 because because not only does it drive us in the, in the corners 448 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:08,000 individually and say getting to the point where we, we, we are 449 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:10,360 getting to that point and, and many people are getting to the 450 00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:13,520 point of saying nothing that I'm saying in the world is true. 451 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:17,120 They are lying to me constantly. And therefore and, and that that 452 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:21,440 can lead to making some pretty dangerous decisions for 453 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:25,560 ourselves. And so, so I think, I think it 454 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:30,080 is absolutely a dangerous thing to absolutely, absolutely. 455 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:32,840 To to feed into what you're saying, to add to what you're 456 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:35,760 saying, Elon Musk refers to himself as a free speech 457 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,040 absolutist. Now this This is demonstrably 458 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:40,800 false. Well, this is absolutely right 459 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:44,280 and, and, and you're right to call him out, but, but you know, 460 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:49,000 I would, I would consider myself, if I'm going to come 461 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:52,240 even close to being absolutist on anything, it's on that 462 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:56,440 because my view is that, you know, you allow the other person 463 00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,080 to say what they've got to say and you can make a decision 464 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:02,080 about what they say and you can argue against what they say. 465 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:06,600 And, and I fundamentally disagree with, perhaps I even 466 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:11,080 absolutely disagree with the idea that, that, you know, 467 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:15,120 somebody saying something that I dis disagree with is, is somehow 468 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:17,800 dangerous and has to be shut down. 469 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:22,520 What that means is that I don't have, if I, if I, if somebody 470 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:25,160 says something that I disagree with, and I feel that that is 471 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:27,680 dangerous and it has and they have to be stopped from saying 472 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:29,600 it. What I'm saying is I don't have 473 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,800 an argument against that person's position. 474 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:37,440 And, and if I, if I genuinely don't have an argument about 475 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,480 that person's position, then I need to be thinking about that. 476 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:43,160 I need to be thinking about what my argument is. 477 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:45,880 Why do I find that person's position so dangerous? 478 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:49,600 Why do I want him to stop saying that and and why do I not have 479 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:52,800 something in rebuttal? Because that's my fear, not 480 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,160 theirs. Yeah, in South Africa you have 481 00:30:55,160 --> 00:31:00,200 the third largest political party filling up stadiums, 482 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:05,320 100,000 people singing kill the farmer, kill the white man, 483 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:09,080 right, 100,000 people. That's that's not one person who 484 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:12,160 you are disagreeing with. It's 100,000 people jumping up 485 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:16,200 and down singing songs together in unison about killing white 486 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:19,680 farmers or killing white people and the politician on stage is 487 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:21,080 shooting a machine gun in the air. 488 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:24,920 That's not a very good idea to be to be singing songs with 489 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:28,840 masses and masses and masses of people about killing a certain 490 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:33,440 group of people, because that can lead to killing a certain 491 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:37,560 group of people. I couldn't agree. 492 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:37,960 So how do? You. 493 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:39,280 How do you how do you counter that? 494 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:43,560 That's that is a very good question. 495 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,240 I'm not sure that I have an answer that that's, that's why 496 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:51,640 I'm not an absolutist. You know, I, I would come close, 497 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:55,440 as close to being an absolutist as it is possible to be on this 498 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:57,680 issue. But but you're, you're 499 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,520 absolutely right. The only way to the only way to 500 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:04,440 counter that would be to fill another stadium with people 501 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,320 providing a different argument. But but what we're, what we're, 502 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:11,640 what we're, I think looking at there is something which goes 503 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:15,400 beyond speech because what you're looking at there. 504 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:18,200 Is. It will, but, but it's more than 505 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:19,800 that, isn't it? Because what you're looking at 506 00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:24,080 there is the sort of Nuremberg, Hitler's, Hitler's Nuremberg 507 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:27,640 sort of event where you're actually bringing people 508 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:33,240 together and carrying out a certain set of actions which are 509 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:35,680 going to cause a psychological effect on those people. 510 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:39,960 And, and so again, because it's impossible to, to have absolutes 511 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:45,880 here, Where does it, where, where does the idea of speech 512 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:49,920 and, and the idea of a psychological operation begin? 513 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,360 Because what you're describing is something that goes beyond 514 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:56,200 freedom of speech, in my opinion, that's not freedom of 515 00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,640 speech. That is, you know, something 516 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:03,360 which is being, is designed to have a psychological effect on 517 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,920 the people that are, that are in the room or in the stadium, 518 00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:10,320 which is beyond just making an argument about something. 519 00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:13,800 You're, you're, you're bringing the idea of singing together 520 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:16,840 into this picture. And singing together is 521 00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:25,080 something that that helps build, you know, ideologies, let's put 522 00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:27,720 it that way. It can be used in that sense 523 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:30,680 anyway. Boris Johnson has killed far 524 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:35,200 more people than Julius Malema by staying, by saying whatever 525 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:39,520 he said in 2020, stay at home, protect the NHS and whatever. 526 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:42,640 The third thing is that I, I can't remember what it was, but 527 00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:48,240 there's no doubt that there's no doubt in my mind that him saying 528 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:52,080 that and having the mainstream media rebroadcast it meant that 529 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:55,640 10s of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of people 530 00:33:55,640 --> 00:34:01,160 died during the spring of 2020 because all their care and life 531 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:03,440 lines, particularly the elderly, were removed. 532 00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:07,160 But no one would have suggested at the time, oh, he can't say 533 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:09,719 that. You know, it it that that would 534 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:12,400 never have been perceived to be a free speech issue. 535 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:16,120 Whereas, you know, Malema jumping up and down on stage 536 00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:17,920 singing Kill the Boer. Yeah. 537 00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:23,520 I mean, it obviously it is difficult to listen to, but 538 00:34:24,199 --> 00:34:27,040 actually, how many people have gone out there, if we're to 539 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:31,120 consider incitement, how many people have gone with that in 540 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:35,120 mind to go and do that? I'm not saying none at all. 541 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:37,239 I'm, I'm just, you know, it's a question. 542 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:39,480 But. I mean, yeah, difficult. 543 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:42,320 Sorry for interrupting, but I'm, I'm going to agree with Mike in 544 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:46,560 the sense that it does crossover into the realm of psychological 545 00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:49,320 operations. COVID was another good example, 546 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:51,239 as you just pointed out. But you know, you have somebody 547 00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:55,800 like Fauci coming onto TV with 10s of millions, maybe more 548 00:34:55,800 --> 00:35:00,040 people listening to his every word saying put on a mosque, put 549 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:01,640 on 2 mosques, put on three mosques. 550 00:35:01,720 --> 00:35:03,120 It's going to it's going to protect you. 551 00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:05,560 Absolutely. So I, I think we returned to 552 00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:08,480 this issue of trust and trusting yourself. 553 00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:13,560 And if you're at a can't remember what his what? 554 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,160 What's his party called the Nameless Party? 555 00:35:16,720 --> 00:35:18,400 The EFF. OK. 556 00:35:18,720 --> 00:35:22,240 So if you're, if you're at one of his rallies, it's up to you. 557 00:35:22,240 --> 00:35:26,160 It's it's your discernment. Are you, are you seriously there 558 00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:30,520 thinking that what he's singing and what everybody is singing is 559 00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:34,520 to be interpreted literally put putting to, to to one side the 560 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:37,520 the fact that it is a deliberate psychological operation. 561 00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:41,080 But it is up to you as to whether you do that in the same 562 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:44,600 way that it was up to us as to whether you did stay at home, 563 00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:47,600 protect the NHS and do the other thing that I probably will never 564 00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:49,640 remember, hopefully will never remember. 565 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:54,040 You know, or go and get the job or or you know, any of the other 566 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:57,840 things that that people of a certain mind and probably people 567 00:35:57,840 --> 00:35:59,920 who are listening to this considered to be utterly 568 00:35:59,920 --> 00:36:03,720 abhorrent to listen to it. It is still up to you to trust 569 00:36:03,720 --> 00:36:08,320 yourself in, in terms of your reaction to it. 570 00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:10,880 How do you deal with that piece of information? 571 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:13,720 We can't be absolutist about about this. 572 00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:20,200 And, you know, and, and you know, one of the, one of the 573 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:24,600 things that the British government has said is that 574 00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:30,600 everybody, you know, with the, as the censorship regime rolls 575 00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:34,400 out, everybody will have the right to say what they want, but 576 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:36,560 they won't have the right to, to be heard. 577 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:41,760 So you'll be allowed to post whatever you like, but of course 578 00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:45,840 then you'll be shadow band and all the other mechanisms that we 579 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:51,240 already know that social media platforms use. 580 00:36:51,240 --> 00:36:55,080 And, and of course that that is effectively a shutdown on 581 00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:59,360 freedom of speech by, by shadow banning people and so on. 582 00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:05,400 But also equally, the shutdown on freedom of speech on the BBC, 583 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:07,480 for example, which is supposed to be a public service 584 00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:12,440 broadcaster, when they decided that they were going to abandon 585 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:18,320 their claim of impartiality and and objectivity on the climate 586 00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:21,200 change, the climate change policy area. 587 00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:24,760 And they said, well, we're not going to give equal time to 588 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:27,560 people that argue against climate change, for example. 589 00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:30,400 So they have taken an absolute position on that. 590 00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:35,640 And that absolutism is absolutely detrimental to the 591 00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:39,240 entire discussion because there's no discussion possible. 592 00:37:39,240 --> 00:37:41,840 It's only ideology at that point. 593 00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:51,840 And so, you know, I, I tend towards the view that that 594 00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:56,280 attempting to censor people, no matter what they say is, is a 595 00:37:56,280 --> 00:38:01,240 bad thing, but, or at least it ends up being a bad thing. 596 00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:05,480 But I absolutely equally take your point that, that, that 597 00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:08,520 there are certain circumstances where it may be really 598 00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:11,640 regrettable that that things have been said in a particular 599 00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:13,920 way. I still don't think I would shut 600 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:16,680 it down. Well, I mean, they in that 601 00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:20,680 particular example, it's also a symptom of something else. 602 00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:25,680 Catherine Austin Fitz makes, I think, a fairly good point when 603 00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:30,760 she says, look, you have to go and change the minds of people, 604 00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:33,440 but unfortunately you can only do it one person at a time. 605 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:38,480 When I was in the police and I was out and about, I would, I 606 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:41,400 would deliberately engage people in conversation about mask 607 00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:44,400 wearing and tell them that they had absolutely no need to wear 608 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:48,880 one and that no one could challenge them on it, which they 609 00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:53,320 always found a slightly problematic thing to hear from 610 00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:55,040 somebody who's in the police at the time. 611 00:38:55,640 --> 00:39:00,120 And I can remember saying it to a woman I saw in a shop. 612 00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:04,200 I, I was, well, I was investigating something totally 613 00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:06,880 absurd like it usually was. But, but there was a, there was 614 00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,880 a young lady in there with a baby in a pram and she, the 615 00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:11,640 woman, the mother was wearing a mask. 616 00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:16,400 And I, it just, it was an awful sight as it was across the 617 00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:20,160 board, but to see that this little baby was not able to see 618 00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:23,560 her mother's face and I was just killing time waiting for 619 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:27,160 somebody to reappear. So I went to her and said, look, 620 00:39:27,720 --> 00:39:30,800 because I was in plain clothes but identified myself and said, 621 00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:34,840 look, I just, you know, just want to make you aware that you 622 00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:37,920 don't have to wear face covering. 623 00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:41,080 It's entirely up to you if you perceive there to be any harm or 624 00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:45,120 risk of harm and your baby not being able to see you would 625 00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:47,360 certainly qualify as that. And further, there's no need for 626 00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:50,080 you to display a sign or anything. 627 00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:52,880 And indeed, if anybody challenges, you don't need to 628 00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:57,360 explain yourself. And she listened to me sort of 629 00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:02,360 politely enough and didn't remove her mask. 630 00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:04,120 Not not that I was expecting. You know, it wasn't a sort of 631 00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:05,480 right, go on then take your mask off. 632 00:40:05,720 --> 00:40:09,000 But but the point is it was it was just presenting her with the 633 00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:12,080 information and she, I don't know, I mean, maybe she could, 634 00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:15,880 but but. I could not myself understand 635 00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:19,720 how a mother could possibly want to put that sort of a barrier 636 00:40:19,720 --> 00:40:22,760 between her and her child, which sounds like I'm having a an 637 00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:26,120 individual go at this woman. I'm not because I understand 638 00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:29,480 exactly the psychological warfare she'd been subjected to 639 00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:31,040 in order to do that in the 1st place. 640 00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:36,200 But it was very interesting to, to just be able to have this 641 00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:38,960 conversation, admittedly slightly one sided conversation 642 00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:42,880 with her. And what I would to say that it 643 00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:45,360 suggests is that she did not trust herself. 644 00:40:45,720 --> 00:40:48,480 Because if she had, why on earth would she ever have done that in 645 00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:50,680 the 1st place? I mean, there's no way had she 646 00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:53,160 not been told to that she would have suddenly thought one day, 647 00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:56,120 gosh, I'll tell you what, I, this baby, I don't think needs 648 00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:58,160 to see my face anymore. I mean, it's just that, you 649 00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:01,120 know, wouldn't happen. So so the the psychological side 650 00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:07,440 of all this is so significant. Would it be a fair assessment to 651 00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:13,680 think of ABS an absolutist view as an unwavering stance on 652 00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:17,960 something regardless of context? Regardless of anything, it's 653 00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:23,120 just a completely radicalised position, while being principled 654 00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:29,880 might be about holding a set of values or ethical beliefs and 655 00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:34,840 being able to adapt it based on context or situation. 656 00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:39,400 Yeah, I mean, I, I think that's a pretty good stab. 657 00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:41,040 I think. I think you're exactly right 658 00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:45,080 that that absolutism in the way that we're talking about it 659 00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:48,960 gives you no room for manoeuvre. It's there's, there's no nuance. 660 00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:52,480 It, it, it, I think the way we've talked about it, it, it 661 00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:58,000 prevents you ironically, it prevents you from achieving 662 00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:02,160 perhaps the best result. And in actual fact, you might 663 00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:06,280 find that's you're even thwarting your own ideals by 664 00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:08,600 being absolutist. Obviously it's absurdly 665 00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:12,600 hypothetical, but but but yes, I mean, although I think you need 666 00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:15,200 to go back to what Mike had said, which in fact was exactly 667 00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:16,640 what I was about to bring into conversation. 668 00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:21,000 This, this, all of this pertains so much to to AI and the and the 669 00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:25,400 whole computer says no thing. You know, you're asking a non 670 00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:31,360 sentient tool to to make a decision based on an absolute, 671 00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:37,720 which is utterly ridiculous in, in, in every regard, not just 672 00:42:37,720 --> 00:42:40,200 those that concern life and death. 673 00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:44,960 And and that that is something we should absolutely be very, 674 00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:46,520 very aware of. But of course, absolutely. 675 00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:49,160 Yeah, it's grabbed in a lot, isn't it? 676 00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:53,280 But but but you know, that should be one of the things that 677 00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:56,520 that undoes people's willingness to jump into bed with this sort 678 00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:57,800 of technology. Why? 679 00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:00,160 Why would you do that? It doesn't. 680 00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:03,960 It cannot possibly understand the sorts of things we're 681 00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:08,080 talking about. And it does actually horseshoe 682 00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:11,600 all the way back to the beginning because I mentioned 683 00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:14,080 the the dichotomy of creation versus evolution. 684 00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:17,360 And both of those, as you have pointed out, like are absolutist 685 00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:19,680 views. I don't think they, I don't 686 00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:23,720 think they in and of themselves are necessarily absolutist. 687 00:43:23,720 --> 00:43:28,080 I think that the way that some stalkers. 688 00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:31,160 Express to me sorry, but sorry. Absolutely, yeah. 689 00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:33,840 Yes, that that's what I'm getting to certain certain 690 00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:38,680 certain vested interests present them as absolutist. 691 00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:44,240 I, I think that I think that there is, is much more nuance in 692 00:43:44,240 --> 00:43:48,320 the, in the if, if the debate is a serious debate, I think 693 00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:50,960 there's much more nuance in that. 694 00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:55,960 And, you know, at the end of the day, no matter what Dawkins or 695 00:43:55,960 --> 00:44:00,160 anybody else says, the question of where life came from in the 696 00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:04,680 1st place has not been answered. The question of, and you know, 697 00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:09,920 as, as, as Charles has said, you know, even those who believe in 698 00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:12,960 The Big Bang, the next question is, well, what, where did The 699 00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:15,720 Big Bang come from? What was before that and and so 700 00:44:15,720 --> 00:44:17,520 on. And so these, these questions 701 00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:21,960 are unanswerable and, and it seems like a really ridiculous 702 00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:26,800 place to start in taking an absolute position on them. 703 00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:34,720 We start by asking the questions and you know, and Dawkins is a 704 00:44:34,720 --> 00:44:38,160 campaigner. He, he, he has a fundamental 705 00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:42,440 absolute non belief in, in a creator and, and he is a 706 00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:45,320 campaigner on that basis and, and should be recognised as 707 00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:48,040 such. And so it when we're, when we're 708 00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:51,760 making a decision on who to trust, we need to absolutely 709 00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:54,600 make that decision, recognising that fact. 710 00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:58,320 And the same goes for people that are, are coming from the 711 00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:01,440 creationist side as well. They're often, if not always 712 00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:06,840 campaigners in their own way, because they have in that case, 713 00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:10,840 they have a fundamental faith. And that's not a criticism of 714 00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:15,320 faith, but you know, when we're making our decisions about what 715 00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:19,240 is, what we should believe in, who to trust, that we've got to, 716 00:45:19,240 --> 00:45:21,080 we've got to take these things into account. 717 00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:26,320 I think. Bogosian yes, No, I was going to 718 00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:28,480 say Peter Bogosian, who was on my show a few weeks ago. 719 00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:32,000 You know, he in his book, he says you can simply just ask the 720 00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:37,280 question, well, how do you know which, which is exactly what 721 00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:39,760 you're saying, Mike. And what that does is that it 722 00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:42,720 potentially dismantles an absolutist position. 723 00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:49,840 So in other words, vaccines work well. 724 00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:52,240 How do you know? We all come from The Big Bang. 725 00:45:52,240 --> 00:45:54,840 How do you know? Well, God created us. 726 00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:56,240 How do you know? Etcetera. 727 00:45:57,040 --> 00:46:00,280 Exactly, And that and that goes back to the point that Mike, I 728 00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:03,720 think was making that, you know, where we got into the well, you 729 00:46:03,720 --> 00:46:07,240 know, if the Earth's flat, then I then, then there's no way I'll 730 00:46:07,240 --> 00:46:11,840 take a jab. And I think on whichever side of 731 00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:15,400 this side, whichever, where, wherever on the spectrum you 732 00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:19,000 find yourself in terms of society and and what people 733 00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:24,040 believe, for the vast majority of people, it is a it's a bingo 734 00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:27,600 card. So you've got you've either got 735 00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:30,160 yeah, I've got an electric vehicle. 736 00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:33,720 Therefore, I believe that a man can be a woman and I believe 737 00:46:33,720 --> 00:46:36,280 that the climate is being changed by man and this. 738 00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:40,080 I mean, you know, it's, it's OK parody, but but I mean, and it's 739 00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:43,520 the same on the other side. It is the sort of right, well, 740 00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:49,640 I've got, I've got no jabs. I've got the government's lying 741 00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:54,320 to us. I've got The Big Bang is a hoax. 742 00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:56,840 I've got Flat Earth, you know, all the rest of it. 743 00:46:56,840 --> 00:47:00,080 And I think I think there is a great deal on on, as I say, 744 00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:05,000 across the spectrum of people just falling in with the 745 00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:10,880 supposed beliefs of the people that they think that they are 746 00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:15,200 part of a group with. But I don't think that's quite 747 00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:19,320 how things really are or or indeed how they should be. 748 00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:22,560 If you're not making each of those judgments for yourself, 749 00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:25,840 then I think you are in trouble. And I think you're also further 750 00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:30,640 in trouble if you if you do believe that the people that are 751 00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:34,320 holding similar views do actually regard you as being 752 00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:36,640 part of their group and that that group means something and 753 00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:39,480 is going to do something. Because I think ultimately it's 754 00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:42,040 probably not. But you just mentioned 755 00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:45,560 transgenderism. If somebody asks me can a man 756 00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:49,280 become a woman? And my answer is no, that is 757 00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:53,800 that an absolutist position. Depends on your definition of 758 00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:56,480 man and woman. If you, if, if you have, if you 759 00:47:56,480 --> 00:47:59,400 have taken it to the extreme and you've decided that you're a 760 00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:04,360 woman and you've had bits cut off and, and, and you know, your 761 00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:10,640 body reformed in particular ways, you know, what does that 762 00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:13,640 make you? I mean, I, I would, I would just 763 00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:16,840 for the avoidance of diet, I would suggest that it doesn't 764 00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:20,640 make you a woman, But you know, it depends on what your 765 00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:24,040 definition of a woman is. What is a woman? 766 00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:28,200 Well, exactly, Yeah. I mean, I thought for a second 767 00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:30,200 your question might have been about evolution. 768 00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:31,920 Again, no. No, no. 769 00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:36,080 I was no, I know I'm joking, but no. 770 00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:38,120 Well, this is it. So it is. 771 00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:41,000 It is very much to do with sort of defining terms. 772 00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:44,000 But it was completely ridiculous, isn't it? 773 00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:51,400 The idea that that anyone can be anything else, or anyone else, I 774 00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:54,080 mean. Sorry, I was going to say I 775 00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:57,760 don't think it's absolutism. I think that there is just 776 00:48:58,120 --> 00:49:00,600 science. Yeah, but you say that, but, but 777 00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:05,400 you speak to someone who is a pro trans campaigner and they'll 778 00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:09,920 say that that's not true. So, so where is where is the 779 00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:14,160 truth in it? I mean, I, I, I personally may 780 00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:18,800 agree with you over the position of the other person, but where, 781 00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:21,480 where is the truth? Is it possible to find, is it 782 00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:24,240 possible to identify an absolute truth? 783 00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:26,840 Anything. In in that instance. 784 00:49:29,240 --> 00:49:31,840 Well, only if the other person agrees that that's what defines 785 00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:35,080 being a woman. So the so the problem is just 786 00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:38,160 choosing, choosing the ground and then and then finding that 787 00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:39,640 the other person wants to meet you on it. 788 00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:42,680 Which by knowledge they don't. Which is how we're getting all 789 00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:43,680 these Pickles in the 1st. Place. 790 00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:47,920 Well, exactly. This is the problem, yeah. 791 00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:51,720 An absolute mess, one might say. But it does. 792 00:49:51,800 --> 00:50:01,080 It does then keep forcing 1 to ask questions, to hold up a 793 00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:04,400 mirror and to analyse what one thinks. 794 00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:06,880 Well, I mean this, this brings us right back to the very 795 00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:11,040 beginning of this conversation, because this, I have to say, is 796 00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:13,880 the the hill that I will absolutely die on. 797 00:50:13,960 --> 00:50:17,960 And that is that we must my opinion, we must be challenging 798 00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:24,120 our own positions at every, every opportunity. 799 00:50:25,240 --> 00:50:28,760 And, you know, if, if somebody says something to me that I, 800 00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:33,440 that I vehemently disagree with, I, I want to try to understand 801 00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:35,440 why I vehemently disagree with it. 802 00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:40,680 And I want to actually, because in the process of trying to 803 00:50:40,680 --> 00:50:43,600 understand why I vehemently disagree with it, I've got to 804 00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:46,640 actually challenge my own position. 805 00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:50,400 And you know, that will either demolish the position that I 806 00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:53,080 hold or it will strengthen the position that I hold. 807 00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:58,640 But the danger is this whole thing of, of confirmation bias. 808 00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:02,000 We've got to be absolutely conscious of that and, and be 809 00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:04,320 aware that we could be guilty of it. 810 00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:06,320 I think we all are to a certain degree. 811 00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:10,360 And and so we've got to be, you know, we've got to be honest 812 00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:12,840 with ourselves. It's not just a matter of trust, 813 00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:15,240 because we can blindly trust ourselves just like we can 814 00:51:15,240 --> 00:51:18,360 blindly trust anybody else. We've got to be honest with 815 00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:21,720 ourselves about the positions that we hold and whether, 816 00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:25,000 whether the the evidence and inverted commas that that 817 00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:27,720 brought us to that position actually stands up. 818 00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:30,960 And if it does, then we can we can produce better arguments 819 00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:34,320 against the people that are that are coming at us from a 820 00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:38,720 different perspective. And yes, sorry, no, sorry. 821 00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:39,920 Please go on. I thought you were done. 822 00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:41,840 No, more or less. It was. 823 00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:43,080 Yeah, I mean, yeah, more or less. 824 00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:45,320 So go ahead. Now, I was going to say this has 825 00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:49,400 been absolutely, absolutely my favourite Vantas session to 826 00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:51,920 date. And I'll tell you why, because I 827 00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:56,640 haven't. I have certainly begun to 828 00:51:56,640 --> 00:52:00,640 rethink my views on absolutism, and so I have you gentlemen to 829 00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:04,440 thank for that. I'm holding up a mirror. 830 00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:08,120 As a result, we can all go ahead and I, I'm. 831 00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:10,720 Challenging my own views. I'm challenging my own views so 832 00:52:10,720 --> 00:52:14,080 that that is, for me, a success. That is good. 833 00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:16,840 I, I mean, I do, I, I must say, just go back to the beginning 834 00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:18,760 again. I mean, in every sense, the, 835 00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:24,600 the, the creation evolution sort of saga, it's fascinating. 836 00:52:24,600 --> 00:52:29,560 It fascinates me in that I am amazed that people, and I don't 837 00:52:29,560 --> 00:52:31,760 mean this is not right criticism, but it is amazing 838 00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:37,280 that people will believe that God's gift of creation, which 839 00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:40,160 has been mined by, I mean, we don't even know the half of it. 840 00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:46,080 We're we're still unaware of who knows how many species in in the 841 00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:50,480 air or on land and and in the sea, but that you can believe in 842 00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:54,480 the wonder of that, but you can completely shut down the 843 00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:57,280 possibility that any of those things can change over time. 844 00:52:58,040 --> 00:53:00,200 I find that quite an interesting contradiction. 845 00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:03,720 But but people are absolutely defined by contradiction. 846 00:53:03,720 --> 00:53:07,040 I was thinking about your chat with Derek Bros a few days ago 847 00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:09,200 and he he was really interesting. 848 00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:11,760 He was talking about his brother in law and his views on Donald 849 00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:13,120 Trump. And I thought that Donald Trump 850 00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:16,280 is sorry to bring him into this, but but it's such a funny one 851 00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:24,400 because if you've got the I got that I got jabbed, but I hate 852 00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:25,680 Trump. Trump's bad. 853 00:53:25,880 --> 00:53:28,680 And you say to them, yeah, but surely you have Trump to thank 854 00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:31,560 for the fact that you got jabbed because of Operation Warp Speed 855 00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:35,520 and they're confounded. But then you've got the I love 856 00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:37,280 Trump. I didn't get jabbed. 857 00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:41,960 And then you have to point out the same that well, but Trump 858 00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:44,760 did Operation Warp Speed. He tried to get you jabbed. 859 00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:51,040 So it, it is, it's a permanent, there is a permanent requirement 860 00:53:51,040 --> 00:53:56,160 to, to update your thinking and your view of a particular 861 00:53:56,160 --> 00:53:58,080 instance. And I think you going back to 862 00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:00,160 what you were talking about, you know, Mike Yeadon's point, I 863 00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:03,480 think you just have to take everything on its own merits. 864 00:54:04,040 --> 00:54:07,480 And, and I think that that in a way feeds back into the the 865 00:54:07,480 --> 00:54:10,840 absolutism side of it, that this is the whole problem with 866 00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:15,640 absolutism is that it doesn't give you that degree of ability 867 00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:19,640 to to move should should you be required to do so? 868 00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:25,440 That's a great ending note. Thank you guys. 869 00:54:26,120 --> 00:54:28,600 This was a great session. I'll catch up with you next 870 00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:28,960 week. Thanks.