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Hello, this is Charles Malik 
with the UK Column interview. 

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And today I'm joined by Doctor 
Lucy Morgan Edwards, who has 

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intimate knowledge of the system
from the inside, having worked 

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for both the United Nations and 
the European Union in 

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Afghanistan, possibly the most 
significant case study of 

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Western intervention in the 21st
century. 

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Lucy, thank you very much indeed
for joining me. 

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And a warm welcome to UK Column.
Thank you for having me, 

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Charles. 
Not at all. 

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Now there is, by way of that 
introduction, obviously going to

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be an awful lot to get through. 
But I think we'll, we'll start 

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with the background, I suppose 
to a degree in the sort of 

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personal sphere. 
What, what drew you to 

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Afghanistan or that region? 
Because I think you're in 

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Pakistan initially. 
What? 

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What drew you to that part of 
the world in the first instance?

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I went out to to Pakistan to 
visit a family friend in 1999 

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who was working for the United 
Nations, and her housemate at 

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the time was a Canadian woman 
who had had to evacuate from 

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Afghanistan while Clinton was 
doing the bombings of eastern 

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Afghanistan. 
Of course. 

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And just that my discussions and
conversations with this woman 

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really drew me in. 
She obviously loved the place 

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and was working as a as an 
engineer doing urban 

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reconstruction there. 
And in fact, a year later she 

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came to London and invited me to
go and work with her. 

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This was a year before 911 and 
we I had a very old contract 

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situation because at that stage 
British and Americans were 

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supposed to be under a fatwa. 
So I was subcontracted through 

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an NGO actually to work for UN 
Habitat and was taken by her and

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sort of dropped off in Kandahar 
and pretty much left and had to 

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find my own way. 
And in fact, ended up staying 

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with a couple of chaps who 
worked for an NGO, Handicap 

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International. 
But I was working in our office.

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So it really gave me an amazing 
insight into Afghanistan at a 

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time where there are only about 
60 foreigners in the whole 

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country. 
The country had pretty much been

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been forgotten. 
It was in the midst of a four 

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year drought and you would see 
Pakistani, ISI and Al Qaeda 

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representatives flying in or 
people coming in from Saudi 

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Arabia to do Hawking and and so 
on. 

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And at the time bin Laden was 
living in in Kandahar, so his 

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staff would come around to our 
compound. 

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So it was an amazing insight and
I think at a time that was very 

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special because it was before 
the war began. 

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And it enabled me to really see 
Afghans in the light of, for 

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example, how they later reacted 
to 911 and how they were forced 

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to deal with this massive 
intervention that that took 

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place and lasted for for 20 
years after that. 

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It is an extraordinary 
perspective, as you say, and 

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this might be hard to answer 
objectively, but from from your 

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perspective or any of those 
around you, did anybody have any

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inkling of what was to come? 
No, I mean I was there in the 

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summer, the year 2000 and then 
to the autumn and then had to 

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leave and went to Pakistan. 
In fact, I evacuated myself at 

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the time of the bombing of the 
USS Cole in Aden. 

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And because people were trying 
to link that to al Qaeda, they 

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were linking it to al Qaeda in 
the media. 

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Now, in fact, perhaps people are
starting to say that it was 

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potentially a false flag to lead
people into this idea that bin 

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Laden would then be behind the 
attacks of 911. 

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But no, I had no inkling of what
was to come. 

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And then when when 911 did 
happen, at the time I was 

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actually in England, and I wrote
to some of my former colleagues.

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And because it's very hard to 
communicate with people at that 

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stage, there were no mobile 
phones. 

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There was a sort of, you could 
go to a telephone booth in the 

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town and, and phone home, but 
then you'd be exposed to all 

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these Arab Afghans who weren't 
really Afghans. 

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And of course, the Arab, the 
Afghans didn't even really want 

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them there. 
Well, not most of them didn't 

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really want them there. 
So communications were very 

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difficult. 
But my staff who were very, they

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were very sweet. 
I mean, they were, they 

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supported the Taliban. 
They were Pashtun and 

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potentially because of that, I 
was quite surprised. 

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I thought being educated, of 
course they're not going to 

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support the Taliban, but they 
did because they saw the Taliban

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as a stabilising force that had 
cleared out the warlordism of 

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the early 90s. 
And actually they were quite 

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happy when the Taliban took 
Talib Khan in the North East of 

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the country, which was a 
Northern Alliance territory. 

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And we're really hoping, hoping 
that they were going to then 

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take the whole country, which 
they had almost had by by the 

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time of 911. 
OK, Well, that that sort of 

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takes us forward to, to one of 
the things obviously that I did 

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want to talk about, which is 
that, you know, this issue 

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endlessly debated about the 
influence of the Taliban and 

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indeed, you know, whether they 
were in a position of 

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controlling Afghanistan or 
whether they were being 

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controlled and, and all of that.
And also how that relates to, 

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like you say, the events of 
September the 11th, 2001 to, you

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know, very nearly 25 years ago. 
And, and I think if I'm right, 

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you know, regardless of what one
thinks was actually behind those

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events, the view held by most 
people that you came across in 

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Afghanistan was one of complete 
ignorance. 

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They had no idea that that 
either had even happened or was 

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related to what was going on in 
their country. 

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Absolutely yes. 
They they expressed massive 

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surprise that that that this 
could have come from 

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Afghanistan. 
And for the first few days, 

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we're pretty much ignorant of it
actually. 

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I mean, they weren't completely 
cut off. 

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They were starting to break 
Taliban edicts and bringing in 

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DVDs from Pakistan and and so 
on. 

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But we didn't have the Internet 
access and e-mail to the same 

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extent that we do nowadays. 
I mean, you pretty much if 

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you're going to write an e-mail 
home, you had to put it on a 

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disk and then take it to the UN 
office and have it sent from, 

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from the UN satellite system 
there. 

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So, you know, there was really a
feeling much more of isolation 

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and after 911 when as I say, 
when I was in touch with 

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colleagues who I considered to 
have been well educated people, 

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many of them had been educated 
actually under the Soviets as 

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engineers. 
So they were, I was mostly 

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working with engineers, they 
were water engineers and so on. 

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Considered that this was 
something completely alien to 

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them. 
And in fact, as we know, 

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although bin Laden was there, he
was actually pretty sick at the 

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time. 
And I read in the Pakistani 

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press in late 2001 that he had 
been treated for with dialysis 

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and had in fact died. 
I think that was in, it was 

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either Friday Times or Dawn, one
of the main Pakistani papers. 

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And I can't remember whether it 
was Rob Pindy where he died or I

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think it was in Pakistan where 
they said he died. 

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So, yeah, a lot of the, when you
look back, a lot of what we were

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told just didn't add up. 
And it's only, I mean, I, I came

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to a new realization about the 
events of 911 when I moved to 

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New York. 
And that was in 2014. 

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And it wasn't something that I'd
given a great deal of thought 

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to, although I considered that 
it was a rather a bizarre story.

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But I was very focused 
immediately on Afghanistan and 

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all the people I'd met and my 
colleagues who I was very 

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concerned for as the American 
bombing campaign started. 

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Yeah. 
Well, there you go. 

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That, I mean, I think what 
you've just touched on there is,

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is so significant because, you 
know, we've mentioned the 

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Taliban, we've mentioned bin 
Laden. 

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And of course, you know, he was 
the poster boy for so much that 

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people were almost distracted 
beyond their control by any 

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other information, any other 
sort of credible story, 

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particularly about about 
September the 11th, but also 

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about Afghanistan. 
And and yet somehow all of this 

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was supposed to make some sort 
of sense and to make the case 

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for what became, you know, 
decades of horrific turmoil. 

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I, I think just just to go back 
to your own personal 

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circumstances and situation, 
here we are in the UK, or at 

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least I am. 
Many of the audience will be in 

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the UK now in a year where we 
are being convinced, or at least

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there is an attempt to convince 
us that migration is the 

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greatest of all our problems. 
That in particular it is people 

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who come from South Asia or in 
many cases specifically 

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Afghanistan, people are who are 
holding the Islamic faith and 

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all that kind of thing. 
And that there's a huge amount 

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of sort of contrived narrative 
baggage that goes with that. 

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Having spent that time in 
Afghanistan, in a society that 

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has been so demonized, let's say
in the Western media, what what 

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were your experiences living as 
a as a lady at that time at 

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doing what you were doing? 
Well, at the time, I mean, at 

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the time that I was invited to 
go and work in Afghanistan, I 

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was actually working in Belgrave
Square for the Country Land 

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Owners Association and asked my 
boss whether I could have a 

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sabbatical. 
And he just looked at me in 

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astonishment and said, why do 
you want to go to a country 

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where they're so awful to women?
And, and of course it was 

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different for me once I was 
there because I was treated a 

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little bit as a third sex, 
particularly when I started 

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working as a freelance 
journalist. 

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But at the beginning, when I 
first arrived in Kandahar, the 

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overwhelming thing was the, the 
sense of hospitality and the 

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sense of humour that the people 
had, that the people that I 

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worked with had had. 
I mean, of course I didn't meet 

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their wives, but they used to 
talk about their wives as the 

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sort of commander of the 
household. 

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I did meet women in Kandahar and
then later in her at because I 

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was doing, I was organising sort
of basic training in in public 

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health for them with the World 
Health Organization. 

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And also working on what later 
became known as community forum 

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projects, where Habitat was 
trying to establish a sort of 

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community system whereby after 
the the war and the civil war 

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that had had lasted for 23 
years, you could start to 

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rebuild some sort of structures 
and then program the aid through

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those consensus driven models. 
And so yes, my, my feeling was 

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that I was the first thing that 
struck me when I walked into our

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office in Kandahar was that they
had all these Victorian English 

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proverbs hanging on the wall. 
And it just seemed so sweet and 

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innocent actually. 
And that, yeah, the people were 

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incredibly welcoming and 
protective of me and kind. 

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So, you know, that's why after 
911, my immediate reaction was 

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distress that they were being 
targeted with blame or that the 

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the Afghans in general were 
being targeted with blame for 

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having held bin Laden. 
And of course, in relation to 

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what's going on now, you just 
see the same churning over of 

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the media, the repetition, the 
the drumming into people's 

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brains that this is a, a regime 
that that has to be demonized. 

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And of course, funny enough, I 
mean, when I went there, part of

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the reason my boss said to me, 
Oh, well, why do you want to go 

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to a place where they're 
treating women so badly was 

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because Christian Amanpour of 
CNN and Emma Benino, who was a 

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European commissioner, very 
liberal European commissioner, 

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had been there a few months 
before and had made a small 

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segment of news about how awful 
the Taliban were and how badly 

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they were treated and how they 
were detained in jail in 

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Kandahar. 
Well, in the years to come, I 

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found out from another friend 
who'd been working for the 

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Afghan Wireless Telephone 
Company and then other people 

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who work for the Red Cross, who 
were some of the few foreigners 

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that were there, that actually 
Christian Amanpour and Emma 

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Benigno had gone to the local 
hospital and into the women's 

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section and had been asked to 
stop filming and had 

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consistently refused and carried
on filming. 

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And it was actually the female 
chief of the ward who'd asked 

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them. 
So it was the female chief who 

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denounced them to the Taliban. 
And they then they were taken 

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briefly to some police station 
and detained very, very briefly.

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But they made a huge stink out 
of it in the media. 

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And Emma Benigno, one, was one 
of the chief cheerleaders. 

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I'm not defending the Taliban's 
treatment of women, Of course. 

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It's a very conservative 
society. 

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But it's equally conservative in
Pakistan and also potentially in

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Saudi Arabia, where they also 
have Sharia law. 

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That means that people might 
have their hand cut off if if 

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they're convicted of stealing. 
So why is it that we focus just 

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on Afghanistan? 
I mean, my feeling is definitely

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that the relentless propaganda 
that you would see round the 

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00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:32,560
clock of footage of a woman 
being executed in the stadium, 

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00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:37,040
et cetera, et cetera. 
It was very much aimed at 

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00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:40,640
convincing the domestic 
population in Britain that that,

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00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:43,880
you know, that we was coming in 
there to save women and, and to 

230
00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:46,680
about human rights and democracy
and so on. 

231
00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:53,080
And it was massively effective, 
but completely wrong. 

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00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:59,600
And what I subsequently saw 
during my six years staying in 

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00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:02,360
in the country where I was 
involved with election 

234
00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:07,160
monitoring and journalism and 
worked for NGOs like the 

235
00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:10,160
International Crisis Group, 
where I looked at justice 

236
00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:11,440
issues. 
So I was very interested in 

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00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:15,920
justice because you can't have 
democracy unless you've had, you

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00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:19,520
have somehow had a process of 
transitional justice where you 

239
00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:24,600
sideline and indict people who 
have been involved in earlier 

240
00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:29,160
phases of the conflict and so 
that they don't then become the 

241
00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:31,680
government. 
But the West didn't do any sort 

242
00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:33,680
of process, real process of 
justice. 

243
00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:37,160
They didn't want to focus on 
justice issues because they 

244
00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:40,320
wanted to partner up with 
warlords, many of whom had been 

245
00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:45,920
in exile during the Taliban 
regime and who were facilitated 

246
00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:49,000
by the West to come back and 
brought back from places like 

247
00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:54,440
Paris and, and Turkey and and 
London and basically given cash 

248
00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:57,960
and weapons and enabled to go 
back to their fiefdoms where 

249
00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:01,040
they then became the partners of
the West in in this whole 

250
00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:04,320
process of governance. 
Yeah. 

251
00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:08,160
I mean, you know, the situation 
is in so many ways, it appears 

252
00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:10,760
to be so complicated because 
there are so many different 

253
00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:14,080
moving parts and apparent 
influences. 

254
00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:16,680
But but in some sense, it's also
very simple. 

255
00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:21,840
And, and we see, we see this MO 
being carried out in in so many 

256
00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:24,680
different places, At least when 
you do peel back the layers and 

257
00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:27,920
you understand what is going on.
And I think, you know, something

258
00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:31,720
you've certainly said is, is to 
follow the money. 

259
00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:33,760
And you've just talked about 
the, the warlords. 

260
00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:38,640
I mean, in terms of how that 
money did travel, where, where 

261
00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:41,120
was it coming from and how was 
it moving? 

262
00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:43,520
How was the money influencing 
the situation? 

263
00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:47,920
Well, I think Julian Assange 
encapsulated it most accurately 

264
00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:50,520
when he said that the War on 
Terror, and particularly the war

265
00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:53,360
in Afghanistan, was about 
washing money out of the Western

266
00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:57,400
taxpayer base into Afghanistan, 
through Afghanistan. 

267
00:15:57,440 --> 00:15:59,680
And then of course, the money 
was coming out in the drugs 

268
00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:03,640
trade, where it could then be 
redirected to a small elite. 

269
00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:08,200
Now, whether that elite was 
related to military or 

270
00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:13,520
intelligence agencies, freelance
intelligence agencies in order 

271
00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:17,320
that it could be redirected into
black operations in other 

272
00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:20,920
theatres of conflict, for 
example, on the underbelly of 

273
00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:26,080
the former USSR, now Russia in 
the Caucasus and so on. 

274
00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:29,880
Where of course you've, you've 
seen the support for Islamic 

275
00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:33,920
fundamentalism, whether it was 
just about enriching the, the 

276
00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:36,960
Western banking system and, and 
keeping it liquid. 

277
00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:40,160
Because of course I, you know, 
what I've learnt since I've 

278
00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:42,680
become much more interested in 
economics and finance is that, 

279
00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:46,880
you know, so much of what we see
geopolitically has to be 

280
00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:50,120
directly related to what's going
on in the financial system. 

281
00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:53,360
And if you don't understand 
what's going on in the financial

282
00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:56,720
system, I think it's quite hard 
to understand what's going on 

283
00:16:56,720 --> 00:17:00,440
with these major events, whether
it's COVID or whether it's wars 

284
00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:04,560
or so on and so forth. 
Absolutely. 

285
00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:07,760
And I think that that takes us 
in some ways neatly to the 

286
00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:10,240
excellent book that you wrote 
about your experiences. 

287
00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:13,680
So I'm just going to hold up now
the Afghan solution. 

288
00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:19,520
And indeed, you posit that there
was a viable solution that was 

289
00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:25,000
put forward by Abdul Haq and 
this was in effect, in short, 

290
00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:29,200
dismissed. 
Now I mean that Abdul Haq is 

291
00:17:29,360 --> 00:17:32,040
perhaps a name that that many 
won't know. 

292
00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:36,080
Just give a bit of background 
because I think again, although 

293
00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:39,280
we are talking specifically 
about 1 country and one person, 

294
00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:45,320
this actually does speak to the 
model for intervening and and 

295
00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:48,800
how you know, hope is 
effectively crushed at the 

296
00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:51,600
earliest possible stage so 
regularly. 

297
00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:53,880
And of course, the the result is
exactly like you've just been 

298
00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:56,400
describing with the, the, the 
passage of of money. 

299
00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:59,000
But just just give a bit of 
background on on his sort of 

300
00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:04,960
Life and Times. 
Well, Commander Abdul Haq was a 

301
00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:08,840
well known commander during the 
1980s jihad against the Soviets.

302
00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:12,600
And he came from a family that 
were known as resistance 

303
00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:14,120
royalty. 
They were dubbed resistance 

304
00:18:14,120 --> 00:18:17,160
royalty by many of the Western 
journalists who were travelling 

305
00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:22,080
in Afghanistan and who had to go
into Afghanistan with with 

306
00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:25,360
members of the resistance. 
His family came from 

307
00:18:25,360 --> 00:18:28,440
southeastern Afghanistan, from a
place called Jalalabad. 

308
00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:32,520
And in fact, I met the family. 
I was taken to that family a 

309
00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:35,760
year after the events of Tora 
Bora by a journalist who'd been 

310
00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:40,120
in Tora Bora. 
And she had, you know, that I'd 

311
00:18:40,120 --> 00:18:42,120
said I was interested in 
covering the drug story. 

312
00:18:42,120 --> 00:18:43,680
So she said, well, I'm going to 
Jalalabad. 

313
00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:47,680
Why didn't you come with me? 
So that was How I Met the 

314
00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:50,000
family. 
Abdul Haq had been killed a year

315
00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:54,280
before in October 2001. 
But the significance of him and 

316
00:18:54,360 --> 00:19:00,000
and what I found was that he as 
someone who had he was a a 

317
00:19:00,120 --> 00:19:05,000
leading Pashtun, but he had been
working to bring back the former

318
00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:10,480
king as an umbrella beneath 
which the various tribes and 

319
00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:15,240
even senior Taliban had agreed 
to collapse the Taliban regime 

320
00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:19,840
and to work together in forging 
a new Afghanistan, a new 

321
00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:22,120
solution for Afghanistan. 
And this would have been an 

322
00:19:22,120 --> 00:19:24,800
internal solution. 
So had having much more 

323
00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:29,840
legitimacy and, and bearing a 
lot more relevance to local, 

324
00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:32,920
local structures, whether they 
were tribal from the South, 

325
00:19:33,120 --> 00:19:35,760
which is of course the area 
where the Taliban are from, but 

326
00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:38,360
also involving the Northern 
Alliance, which Kamal that 

327
00:19:38,360 --> 00:19:43,240
Masood was the head of. 
So really my investigation was 

328
00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:47,400
into why it was that the West 
ignored this plan. 

329
00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:51,360
And I, I found documents and 
letters that he'd written to 

330
00:19:51,360 --> 00:19:55,720
various Western leaders and 
ambassadors in the early 90s 

331
00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:58,560
where he was warning about the 
fundamentalism being fostered in

332
00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:00,760
the training camps along the 
border of Pakistan. 

333
00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:03,120
And he was just ignored it at 
every turn. 

334
00:20:03,120 --> 00:20:07,120
And in fact, I ended up meeting 
a group of British. 

335
00:20:08,120 --> 00:20:12,080
One was a, a former cameraman 
and another was a British 

336
00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:15,440
baronet and another was the 
former head of the Special Boat 

337
00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:18,280
Service who had been trying to 
get support for him within the 

338
00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:21,080
British establishment and 
failing. 

339
00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:23,480
So I've got, they've given me 
their various sit reps which are

340
00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:27,640
in the back of the book. 
And oh, there was also an 

341
00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:30,400
American wing trying to find 
support for him in Washington, 

342
00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:33,640
DC and the two brothers called 
the Richies, Joe and James 

343
00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:37,840
Ritchie, who had been brought up
in Afghanistan in in the 1950s 

344
00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:41,560
sixties, and who'd made a lot of
money on the Chicago Options 

345
00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:45,160
Exchange. 
And so really it's, it's the 

346
00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:49,160
story of what they were trying 
to do and what Abdul Haq was 

347
00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:52,200
trying to do and why he felt 
that the bombing campaign would 

348
00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,200
just completely destroy this, 
this plan that he had made with 

349
00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:58,400
Masood. 
Obviously Masood was killed 2 

350
00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:01,920
days before 9/11 with we are led
to believe that it was al Qaeda 

351
00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:04,600
that killed him. 
I, I now have my doubts about 

352
00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:09,400
that. 
But you know, just extremely 

353
00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:14,120
interesting how he basically 
said that he had people ready in

354
00:21:14,120 --> 00:21:17,360
position throughout the southern
arc of the, of the, the southern

355
00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:21,200
cities of Afghanistan, sort of 
Gardez, Paktia, Paktika, Ghazni 

356
00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:25,400
and so on. 
And that they would be ready to 

357
00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:29,960
turn over their core commands to
the new regime. 

358
00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:34,320
But it it required the West not 
to bomb because if, if bombing 

359
00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:38,040
took place, all these moderate 
Taliban, because the Taliban 

360
00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:41,000
being a stratified entity, the 
moderates would leave and go 

361
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:44,600
back to their families, leaving 
the more extremists in charge, 

362
00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:47,840
the more extreme al Qaeda 
related elements, the Taliban, 

363
00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:49,360
some of whom were of course 
foreigners. 

364
00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:51,760
And of course, that's really 
what happened. 

365
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:57,000
And the West ignored him. 
The West wanted to work with its

366
00:21:57,680 --> 00:21:59,720
with its partners. 
People had thought that it could

367
00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:02,040
control these warlords. 
I mean, there seems to be an 

368
00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:04,720
absolute obsession about working
with strong men. 

369
00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:07,360
And of course you see that with 
Jelani and Syria. 

370
00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:10,680
I remember going to give 
evidence to, I think it was a 

371
00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:13,520
House of Lords or House of 
Commons Select Committee on 

372
00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:17,440
Defence. 
And all the MP could think to 

373
00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:19,200
ask, I think it was Caroline 
Moon. 

374
00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:21,960
All she wanted to know was who's
the next strongman that we can 

375
00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:25,080
support? 
And I just said it's not about 

376
00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:27,000
that. 
But she's was not interested to 

377
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:28,840
listen. 
They don't understand. 

378
00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:32,480
It's about legitimacy, it's 
about history, it's about trust.

379
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:35,760
It's about building 
relationships, which takes time.

380
00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:40,840
And you know, I'm afraid the 
West just wants to impose its 

381
00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:43,520
cookie cutter solutions 
everywhere it goes. 

382
00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:47,320
It, it doesn't have the time or 
the interest or the patience to 

383
00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:50,360
try to understand the people 
that it's dealing with. 

384
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:53,400
You know, most of our people in 
the Foreign Office we now 

385
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:55,680
understand. 
And also the military don't 

386
00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:59,560
speak Pashtun or, or I mean, 
some of them speak Dari, but 

387
00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:03,800
they, you know, they're just, 
there's just a sort of, they 

388
00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:05,760
want to do a quick in and a 
quick out. 

389
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:07,800
And of course it's not a quick 
thing. 

390
00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:12,200
And we ended up being there for 
20 years and, you know, spending

391
00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:15,880
a huge amount, trillions of 
dollars worth of, of money that 

392
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:17,520
went into it. 
And of course, complete 

393
00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:19,480
disaster. 
I mean, I, I was speaking to 

394
00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:22,720
someone who's just come back 
from Afghanistan 2 days ago and 

395
00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,760
he said it's just so depressing 
and there's no hope for anybody.

396
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:29,800
You've got the Chinese in the 
North East who are extracting 

397
00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:32,960
gold. 
You've got Khalilzad, who was 

398
00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:38,520
the American Afghan envoy who 
who concocted so much of this 

399
00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:42,160
disastrous plan, still 
overseeing Afghanistan, 

400
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:44,760
apparently flying in every few 
months. 

401
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:48,600
And the rumors are that the 
Americans are sending in plane 

402
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:53,040
loads of dollars every week or 
so, so that the feeling is that 

403
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:55,240
the and the Americans are 
actually still in control. 

404
00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:57,040
They're they're flying drones 
around Kabul. 

405
00:23:57,360 --> 00:24:01,640
They control the airspace, 
according to this person, and 

406
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:05,960
the Taliban are enriched and 
happy and very confident and 

407
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:12,840
very arrogant and completely 
unwilling to take a sort of more

408
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:15,840
moderate and sensible approach 
to the population. 

409
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:18,200
The population are just 
collateral. 

410
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:20,160
They they don't appear to care 
about them. 

411
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:24,120
They don't need to have any 
legitimacy with them in terms of

412
00:24:24,120 --> 00:24:27,880
providing services, education, 
et cetera, that there's just no 

413
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:31,120
hope for the people there. 
And this was all predicated and 

414
00:24:31,120 --> 00:24:35,000
predicted by Abdul Haq, who 
understood that there was a 

415
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:39,560
window of opportunity that 
needed to be exploited and that 

416
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:42,680
if that window of opportunity 
was lost, there wouldn't be 

417
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:46,200
another opportunity. 
It wouldn't be easy to row back 

418
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:48,920
the political situation once it 
had unravelled. 

419
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:52,800
And you know, I found it very 
hard trying to explain this to 

420
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:57,440
people, you know, people in 
London and military people, you 

421
00:24:57,440 --> 00:24:59,720
know, a lot of them, you know, 
they have, they might have good 

422
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:03,600
intent, but they just feel that 
if you just dig a few wells and 

423
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,240
you pay off a few elders that 
you can achieve marvellous 

424
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:08,600
results. 
That that's just a fundamental 

425
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:14,040
misreading the complexity of a, 
of a complicated tribal society,

426
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:17,680
I'm afraid. 
And, you know, I feel that we've

427
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,640
lost so much since the colonial 
times when we used to have 

428
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:23,800
people like my grandfather, who 
was with Glove Pasture in Jordan

429
00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:27,520
building up the Arab Legion, 
that people really, you know, 

430
00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,640
they spoke the local languages. 
They were respected by the 

431
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:33,760
soldiers and the people that 
they worked with because they 

432
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:38,240
they really took the time to to 
try to understand the local 

433
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:40,960
culture. 
And I think we've completely 

434
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:44,040
lost that these days. 
And particularly in in the era 

435
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:48,120
of drone war where everyone 
thinks that it's just a quick 

436
00:25:48,120 --> 00:25:52,400
fix to to, to get what we want 
out of a situation, which 

437
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:57,040
appears to be a monetary. 
Well, it appears that what we 

438
00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:00,280
wanted of out of Afghanistan 
wasn't just about sort of 

439
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:03,760
geopolitical in terms of 
occupying a slice of Central 

440
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:06,320
Asia. 
That was very strategic, but it,

441
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:10,760
it also seems to have been 
related to the drugs trade and 

442
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:15,480
potentially smuggling of people,
artifacts, children, you know, 

443
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:19,120
women, etcetera, into the Middle
East and, and other places. 

444
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:24,840
So I'm afraid it's it's, it was 
predictable, but it's extremely 

445
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:27,920
depressing. 
That it certainly is. 

446
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:33,280
And I think that there's so many
more conversational points to to

447
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:35,800
come out from that. 
I mean, you've just talked about

448
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:39,720
colonialism, which has of course
been turned into a hand grenade 

449
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:44,440
of of some magnitude these days 
in terms of discussion or 

450
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:46,280
debate. 
But exactly, you know, the point

451
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:48,720
you make about having subject 
matter experts and people who 

452
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,640
actually knew the people for 
good or for I'll, you know, 

453
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:53,520
let's put the outcomes to one 
side. 

454
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,200
And I think, you know, how 
better to articulate that than 

455
00:26:56,200 --> 00:27:01,360
the the memoirs of Jonathan 
Powell, who was chief of staff 

456
00:27:01,360 --> 00:27:03,520
in Downing St. through this 
period. 

457
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:10,040
And he wrote some years later 
after the events of September 

458
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:14,640
the 11th, 2001 were were 
pointing towards Afghanistan or 

459
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:18,560
at least an Afghan incursion. 
Did he call the Foreign Office? 

460
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:22,120
Did he call the Secret 
Intelligence Service? 

461
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,760
You know, did he call anybody 
who might have had some sort of 

462
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:28,040
background on the area? 
No he didn't. 

463
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:32,200
He went to Waterstones on 
Piccadilly and bought Ahmed 

464
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:37,680
Rashid book on the Taliban that 
that was his first action and 

465
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:40,480
and not only that it it 
absolutely beggars belief. 

466
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:43,800
He then told Tony Blair and 
Alistair Campbell that it was a 

467
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,600
really good book and he said 
Tony could borrow it once he'd 

468
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:49,720
finished it. 
I mean, you know, that that was 

469
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:53,200
the the sort of the, the state 
of affairs. 

470
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:58,160
So, so you know, what you say, I
think absolutely speaks to that.

471
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:02,400
And, and I think also for so 
many people who are conditioned 

472
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:04,600
into thinking, well, say what, 
you know, why, why does this 

473
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:06,680
matter? 
It's got nothing to do with us. 

474
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:10,080
Well, I would say, of course, 
the, you know, taking Assange's 

475
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:14,600
point, the rinsing of the money,
like you say, it's taxpayers 

476
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,600
money, It's our money that this 
is our money that is paying for 

477
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:19,720
this. 
And, and of course the, the very

478
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:23,120
obvious effect, whether or not 
one believes that migration is 

479
00:28:23,120 --> 00:28:27,480
either organic or indeed a 
problem, the fact of it is that 

480
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:31,320
a huge amount is driven either 
directly or indirectly by 

481
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:32,640
exactly what it is you're 
describing. 

482
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,480
And, and how better to, to 
explain that than the, the, the 

483
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:39,200
absolute disaster with the 
so-called sort of data issue and

484
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:42,200
the inflow of, of Afghans into 
this country. 

485
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,480
So I mean, I think there are so 
many things that point back. 

486
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:46,560
I I slightly disagree about the 
migration. 

487
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:48,960
I definitely think the migration
is being weaponized. 

488
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:51,360
I mean, Afghans weren't allowed 
to come into the country before 

489
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:53,520
9/11. 
It was much more controlled. 

490
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:56,480
They still had just as much need
as they do now. 

491
00:28:56,800 --> 00:29:00,760
The UN had no budget really to 
pay any for anything in relation

492
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:04,320
to the drought at that stage. 
And people were literally 

493
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:08,240
starving and having to sell all 
their final possessions and were

494
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:12,160
living in refugee camps in, in 
Iran and, and in Pakistan and 

495
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:13,800
were basically ignored and 
forgotten. 

496
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:18,520
I, I do think that the, the 
migration is definitely being 

497
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:23,280
weaponized. 
It seems to be systematic and it

498
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:27,840
it seems to be also about, you 
know, Britain seems to have this

499
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:32,040
horrendous sort of schism now 
where everything is blamed on 

500
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:36,240
the Muslims and the Jews have 
become the victims. 

501
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:41,440
And, and I think that that is 
very much something that I see, 

502
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,040
for example, the Daily Telegraph
that I used to write for as a 

503
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:47,120
freelance journalist. 
I'm astonished by the fact that 

504
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:49,200
they don't seem to have any 
foreign correspondence. 

505
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:54,440
They have people like Hamish de 
Bretton Gordon and, well, Con 

506
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:57,520
Coughlin with them all the times
who were basically pure 

507
00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:00,600
propagandists. 
They're warmongering, drum 

508
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:04,160
beating, fervid, fervid sort of 
warmongers. 

509
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:10,000
And that seems to be a massive 
Zionist bent to everything in 

510
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:11,800
the Telegraph. 
It seems to be edited, as a 

511
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,240
friend commented, by 
Conservative Friends of Israel. 

512
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:18,040
It's not the newspaper that I 
used to know and whether it's 

513
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:20,920
the comments section, which is 
potentially, you know, 

514
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:27,800
infiltrated or or the editorial 
that there's no nothing is 

515
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:31,120
graduated, nothing is moderate 
in the way that it used to be. 

516
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,600
And it's all sort of the Muslims
that are blamed for everything. 

517
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,600
And you know, isn't the 
anti-Semitism horrendous in 

518
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:40,880
Britain? 
And I just think it's completely

519
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:45,280
nonsensical because you look at 
how Israel has infiltrated all 

520
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:48,200
of our political class, how 
they're all, I mean, you 

521
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:51,240
basically have to be a member of
Labour or Conservative or now 

522
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:56,280
even Reform Friends of Israel. 
And you know, why? 

523
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,160
Why do we have our parliamentary
representatives serving a 

524
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:01,600
foreign state? 
That's what people need to start

525
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:05,600
asking. 
And, you know, it seems to be 

526
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:09,880
that there's some evidence that 
a lot of the the migration which

527
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:14,160
has been weaponized is actually 
being promoted by some Israeli 

528
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:17,960
or Zionist groups. 
So I think it's a little like, 

529
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:21,520
you know, it's, it's, it's a, 
it's neither sort of, it's not 

530
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:23,640
one thing or the other, but I 
think it's definitely being 

531
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,960
weaponized against Britain to 
destabilize the population. 

532
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:31,200
No, I mean that that I evidently
did not articulate it correctly.

533
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,000
That is exactly the point I was 
I was intending to make. 

534
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:36,520
It was exactly about the 
weaponization, particularly in 

535
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:39,960
in so far as setting up what 
could really be described as a 

536
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:44,120
civil war, but but also to lead 
people down the down the path of

537
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:47,600
accepting digital ID and so many
other things besides. 

538
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:49,520
But but you know, this just to 
go back to the beginning, was 

539
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:53,520
why I asked you how you felt you
were treated in that society. 

540
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:57,640
Because that, you know, such a 
number has been done on places 

541
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:00,440
that are over there and full of 
Muslims, you know, as they 

542
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,200
people therefore cannot 
countenance that there could be 

543
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:07,400
any, any way in which that could
possibly work here. 

544
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:08,880
But a bit. 
But absolutely it is a 

545
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:12,400
weaponized situation. 
Now what I wanted to come on to 

546
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,560
just just to go back because I 
think we should really just 

547
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:21,400
flesh out the the Abdul Haq 
point because it is stunning to 

548
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:23,440
to read some of the 
correspondents and you've 

549
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:27,520
referred not by name, but to Sir
John Gunston who was out there. 

550
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:31,840
And I'm just going to read from 
the appendix that contains facts

551
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:35,600
sent from him to Charles 
Guthrie, who was then chief of 

552
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:38,640
the defense staff. 
And this is sent in October 

553
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:41,400
2001. 
And and just a couple of bits. 

554
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:46,560
You talked about the the Special
Forces chap, Major Seger, he was

555
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,720
with. 
And Gunston writes that they 

556
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:53,160
have been over the last few 
weeks trying to bring to notice 

557
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:56,120
to those who have an interest in
solving the Afghan business the 

558
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:58,880
potential of a remarkable 
Pushtun guerrilla commander, 

559
00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:02,440
Haji Abdul Haq. 
And then they go on and have a 

560
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:07,800
meeting with a small sort of 
portfolio of people from the 

561
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:10,520
Foreign Commonwealth Office and 
the Secret Intelligence Service.

562
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:12,680
Service. 
And, and the result of that, 

563
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:15,600
Gunston summarizes, is the 
response was polite. 

564
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:21,360
They disinterested in Hack as 
they, FCO and SIS are looking at

565
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:25,040
other Pushtoon assets. 
They will contact Hack if 

566
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:28,560
interested. 
And then it goes on to say that 

567
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:30,320
basically nothing has happened 
and they're not at all 

568
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:34,800
interested in Abdul Haq. 
And Gunston, keen to give the 

569
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,040
benefit of the doubt, presumably
knowing which side his bread was

570
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:42,720
buttered, says this reluctance 
is probably for good operational

571
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:47,960
reasons unknown to ourselves. 
So that's his sort of very 

572
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:51,520
benevolent line on it. 
But the first line of his 

573
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:56,320
proposed solution to Charles 
Guthrie is we believe that the 

574
00:33:56,320 --> 00:34:00,120
quickest, least damaging, least 
controversial and most long 

575
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:04,760
lasting solution for achieving a
terrorist free Afghanistan can 

576
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:08,920
be achieved from within in bold 
by Afghans. 

577
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:14,120
And yet look what happened. 
And again, for people to think, 

578
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:16,239
oh, well, you know, that was 
just Afghanistan. 

579
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:19,840
Look at what's happened since. 
And I mean, I just be interested

580
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:23,400
on, you know, your thoughts on 
on that exact that situation. 

581
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:26,280
You know, Guthrie running, 
running the Ministry of Defence 

582
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:31,600
and you know, had the ear of the
Prime Minister, everybody else 

583
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:35,679
that needed to hear what what 
was to be said from the ground 

584
00:34:35,679 --> 00:34:38,440
in Afghanistan and yet 
completely ignored. 

585
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:41,199
You know, we see this time and 
again, do we not? 

586
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:44,080
I think so. 
And I think it's because the 

587
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:47,080
people like Guthrie aren't 
making the decisions. 

588
00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:50,960
So that's he's just a cog in the
wheel, fairly low level 

589
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,440
actually. 
I think the, the decision makers

590
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,520
are much higher up and they have
to do with the the banks, the 

591
00:34:56,520 --> 00:35:01,560
capital markets and, you know, 
the currency. 

592
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:04,200
And I think we make the mistake 
and particularly where you see 

593
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:07,440
all this sort of Trump 
Derangement syndrome going on in

594
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:09,360
our society. 
And I'm not a supporter of 

595
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:12,600
Trump, but I think that one 
needs to understand that there 

596
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:15,040
are different groups. 
They're almost like mafia 

597
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:17,520
factions. 
And he potentially represents 1.

598
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:21,280
And he's the sort of loss adjust
of the United States as it goes 

599
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:23,680
bankrupt now. 
And he's everything that he's 

600
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:25,360
doing with Greenland, with 
Venezuela. 

601
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:30,320
It's all about resources and 
trying to extend the, the, the 

602
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:34,000
value of, of the dollar as, as 
it basically goes under consumed

603
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:37,920
by the interest payments they 
have to pay as they roll over 30

604
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:41,160
and 10 year debt bonds and or 
gilts or treasury bills, 

605
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:46,360
whatever you want to call them. 
And so, you know, Trump is 

606
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:50,640
beholden to financial pay 
masters in the same way as our 

607
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:54,720
own political class are and our 
own, our own military leaders. 

608
00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:58,200
See, and, and I suppose it's all
come since, particularly since 

609
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:01,800
the mass financialization of 
everything in, in the 1990s 

610
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:06,960
where we had that we no longer 
have the separation of retail 

611
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:09,720
banking and investment banking. 
You know, what used to be the 

612
00:36:09,720 --> 00:36:13,360
Chinese wall, the Glass Steagall
Act, which Bill Clinton removed.

613
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:17,320
So you have all this massive 
debt proliferation and all these

614
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:20,200
huge problems. 
You know, it just seems that 

615
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:23,160
these decisions are made at a 
much higher level. 

616
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:29,000
And I think that it, you know, 
it had to do with money and 

617
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:31,760
black operations. 
And of course, poppy is 

618
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,440
something that feeds into that 
very nicely because it's easy, 

619
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:37,080
easy to transport. 
It's, it's a cash crop. 

620
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:39,840
It's, you know, it's very cash 
rich and so on. 

621
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:43,160
And I'm afraid that when I look 
back on what the British and the

622
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:46,880
Americans were doing, more and 
more hints throughout my book 

623
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:51,520
that they were very involved 
with the drug trade and that 

624
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:53,960
these these strong men that they
brought back. 

625
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:58,120
The first thing that they did in
October 2001 was to sow the next

626
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:02,880
poppy, poppy crop, which was 
harvested in spring 2002. 

627
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:07,320
And from then on, if you look at
the UNODC figures, the poppy 

628
00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:11,360
crop, it increased exponentially
year after year, whereas it had 

629
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:15,520
been at 0 metric tons per year 
in the last year of the Taliban.

630
00:37:16,240 --> 00:37:17,560
Yeah. 
I mean, that is perfectly 

631
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:19,040
extraordinary. 
And actually just on on a 

632
00:37:19,240 --> 00:37:24,360
personal note, in terms of who 
cares and who makes decisions, 

633
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:29,040
it was absolutely pathetic to be
on the cusp of deploying to 

634
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:33,360
Helmand with the Army in 2007 
and to have a briefing from I 

635
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:35,600
think what was then called the 
stabilization unit for the 

636
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:38,280
Foreign Commonwealth Office, 
Diffield and MOD. 

637
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:42,800
And we had a briefing from a 
young lady who was clearly out 

638
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:44,800
of a depth but very 
enthusiastic. 

639
00:37:45,240 --> 00:37:49,480
And when asked about exactly 
this issue and what the economic

640
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:52,240
plan for Afghanistan was, and 
bearing in mind this is, you 

641
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:56,040
know, we're six years in and not
just six years in, but two years

642
00:37:56,040 --> 00:38:00,560
into the sort of surge from 
2005, her answer rather glibly 

643
00:38:00,720 --> 00:38:05,520
was, oh, we're working on that. 
And it was it was perfectly 

644
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:06,880
astonishing. 
It was just sort of stunned 

645
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:08,320
silence. 
It was a, you know, commander's 

646
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:10,880
briefing. 
And everyone just sat there 

647
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:14,080
looking at her thinking, what, 
what are you on? 

648
00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:16,760
And and again, the same with, 
you know, you've talked about 

649
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:18,000
sort of building wells and 
stuff. 

650
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:21,640
I remember during that same sort
of rotation of, of talks being 

651
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:25,360
spoken to by somebody from DFID 
who stuck a map on the wall 

652
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:27,720
saying, yeah, well, you know, 
this is where we've had some, 

653
00:38:27,720 --> 00:38:31,640
some of the projects going on. 
And it then transpired that this

654
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:34,200
map was, I think, 20 or 30 years
out of date. 

655
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:37,200
And he had absolutely no idea 
what else had gone on. 

656
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:38,880
They hadn't. 
They'd kept no records. 

657
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:41,360
They had no idea where the money
had gone or anything like that. 

658
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:44,640
But but what I wanted to get to 
in terms of decision making was 

659
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:48,120
just to really flesh this out. 
Who who does decide And also who

660
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:50,400
cares? 
You have an anecdote about 

661
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:53,400
meeting David Cameron when he 
was of the opposition. 

662
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:58,640
Tell me what happened then. 
Yes, well at the time I was, it 

663
00:38:58,640 --> 00:39:03,560
was 2005 and I was working for 
the European Union ambassador to

664
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:05,720
Afghanistan. 
So he was heading up this, the 

665
00:39:05,720 --> 00:39:08,720
political part of the EU. 
There was also the European 

666
00:39:08,720 --> 00:39:13,000
Commission, which was disbursing
aid money and for him my 

667
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:17,760
responsibilities were counter 
narcotics security sector 

668
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:20,840
reform, which was centralising 
and building up the Afghan 

669
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:26,160
National Army and police and 
going around the, the PRTS, you 

670
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:28,440
know, the Provincial 
Reconstruction Teams and of 

671
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:30,400
course NATO. 
So I had to go to various NATO 

672
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:35,640
meetings in the CFC Alpha, which
was the main American base in, 

673
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:39,240
in Kabul, where we had all these
coordination meetings of, of 

674
00:39:39,240 --> 00:39:44,520
various people. 
And I flew back from my R&R to 

675
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:47,720
London in May. 
I'd just been to Helmand and 

676
00:39:47,720 --> 00:39:50,600
they were talking about the, the
British coming out to Helmand, I

677
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:53,600
think it was the following year.
So there was quite a lot in the 

678
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:55,560
press about it. 
And Cameron was leader of the 

679
00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:59,120
opposition at the time. 
And I was invited by a friend 

680
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:02,600
who was very close to David 
Cameron to a dinner party. 

681
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:05,480
And it was, I think it was just 
about 3 couples. 

682
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:10,000
I mean we're about 6 people. 
And I was introduced as to 

683
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:12,720
Cameron as, as having just come 
back from Afghanistan. 

684
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:14,880
At the time, I'd been 
freelancing for The Economist, 

685
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:18,320
The Telegraph. 
And the Scotsman and I was now a

686
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:21,200
political adviser to the EU 
ambassador and I was introduced 

687
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:24,240
to Cameron as someone who knew a
lot about Afghanistan. 

688
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:26,720
And he basically he didn't talk 
to me. 

689
00:40:26,720 --> 00:40:30,120
He didn't ask me anything about 
what was going on, what was my 

690
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:33,760
perspective or point of view. 
He had no interest. 

691
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:40,440
And in fact, he spent the 
evening being very glib and 

692
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:43,840
giggling really with, with a 
couple of the other people there

693
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:48,760
about how they just managed to 
topple some female Labour MP. 

694
00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:52,560
I'm not sure what the context 
was of that, but it was I just 

695
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:57,120
felt incredibly childish and 
incredibly boys club and no 

696
00:40:57,120 --> 00:40:59,400
sense of curiosity. 
Because I think, you know, 

697
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:02,160
apparently David Cameron was 
really much more interested in 

698
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:06,680
polls and was given his talking 
points by others and, and didn't

699
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:11,800
really seem to avail himself of 
of the facts or, or show any 

700
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:15,160
curiosity about soldiers that he
was about to be sending out to 

701
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:18,560
Helmand to their death. 
So, you know, I was shocked by 

702
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:21,280
that. 
No, I'm, I'm not surprised. 

703
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:23,800
I mean, you know that that has 
largely been not just his 

704
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:29,280
reputation, but that of those in
his circle and others besides. 

705
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:32,680
But but to actually hear a first
hand account of that is, is, is 

706
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:35,280
rather eye watering. 
Now you've just mentioned NATO 

707
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:38,320
and of course we've we've spoken
about Russia and I think, you 

708
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:42,080
know, as we look at well, 
Ukraine in particular, but also 

709
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:45,960
of course Greenland and really, 
you know, anywhere else that's 

710
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:48,720
in line in the firing line this 
year. 

711
00:41:49,240 --> 00:41:53,040
We cannot ignore the 
relationship between NATO and 

712
00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:56,320
Russia, but also between 
Afghanistan and NATO and Russia.

713
00:41:56,600 --> 00:42:01,800
And I mean, just give me your 
take on on how you see that, but

714
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:07,280
in a not, not sort of going back
necessarily too far, but at 

715
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:10,360
least going back to the sort of 
70s and 80s and how that 

716
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:13,200
pertains to where we are now and
where you see things going. 

717
00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:17,840
And I think the mistake many 
people in Britain make and I 

718
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:21,120
find it very astonishing when I 
come back to the UK, how anti 

719
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:25,760
Russia the the whole media is. 
And there seems to be a sense 

720
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:27,680
that we're still dealing with 
the Soviet Union. 

721
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:29,960
There's there's no kind of 
awareness that actually we've 

722
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:33,400
moved on from the Soviet Union. 
And when you go back to people 

723
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:37,960
like even Kissinger and George 
Kennan, who was the Great 

724
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:42,320
American Cold War strategist, he
was the ambassador post war in 

725
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:45,480
Moscow. 
And he's written memoirs and and

726
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:48,280
Diaries. 
And in fact, one thing that I 

727
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:50,920
read in Scott Horton's very 
excellent book about George 

728
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:55,760
Kennan's attitude to NATO 
eastward expansion was that we 

729
00:42:55,760 --> 00:43:01,240
should be supporting Putin as a 
moderate rather than, you know, 

730
00:43:01,240 --> 00:43:04,640
trying trying to, to, to act in 
the very belligerent way that 

731
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:07,360
that we have by continuing to 
expand NATO eastward. 

732
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:10,640
That, you know, that actually 
Putin has his own neocons to 

733
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:13,960
deal with behind him. 
And that there are people in his

734
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:18,720
administration and, and also in 
the country who are angry that 

735
00:43:18,720 --> 00:43:22,440
he hasn't been a lot more severe
on the situation with Ukraine. 

736
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:24,960
And they've been running a war 
of attrition and in terms of 

737
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:29,400
grinding down the Ukrainian army
rather than taking territory 

738
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:34,280
very quickly. 
And so I think, I mean, actually

739
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:38,240
when I, I went to Russia in 
June, I want, I was desperate to

740
00:43:38,240 --> 00:43:40,480
go to the Saint Petersburg 
International Economic Forum. 

741
00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:43,680
And I went there as a freelance 
journalist and was just amazed 

742
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:47,560
by how advanced the the system 
is in terms of their 

743
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:51,320
relationship with other Eurasian
countries, in terms of transit 

744
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:55,400
routes, resources development 
and so on. 

745
00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:57,720
And it was 30 years since I'd 
been to Russia. 

746
00:43:57,720 --> 00:44:00,640
I the the last time I was there 
was the mid 90s and I was in 

747
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:02,680
Saint Petersburg for two weeks 
at that stage. 

748
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:06,200
And there were shortages. 
There were queues for food, 

749
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:10,400
there were people shooting at 
each other on the corners and 

750
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:13,760
everything was destroyed. 
And of course, when I went back 

751
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:17,400
this time, I was very surprised 
by how well developed it was. 

752
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:20,200
And, and it, it seemed just like
a western, any sort of Western 

753
00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:23,080
European town. 
And the same with Moscow, which 

754
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:26,960
is really quite beautiful. 
And yet when I come back, I flew

755
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:30,240
into Southampton Airport last 
month, in December, I was 

756
00:44:30,240 --> 00:44:35,480
stopped at the, the, the, the 
border and essentially really 

757
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:40,000
hassled by the, the border guard
and asked why I'd been to 

758
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:42,000
Russia. 
He clearly knew I'd been to 

759
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:44,800
Russia 'cause I'd just applied 
to renew my British passport. 

760
00:44:45,240 --> 00:44:49,760
But I was flying in on my Swiss 
passport and I was then told I 

761
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:51,440
had to see the policeman behind 
him. 

762
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:55,960
So I just thought, well, first 
of all, I'm not British, I'm 

763
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:57,800
Swiss. 
Now I'm flying in on my, I might

764
00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:00,600
be a dual national, but I'm 
flying in on a foreign passport 

765
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:03,120
and I'm, it's not illegal to go 
to Russia. 

766
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:05,640
So why are you trying to rough 
me up? 

767
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:09,200
So I, you know, I just think 
it's got really out of hand. 

768
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:12,560
I think people have become quite
hysterical about the situation. 

769
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:16,240
If only people would read more, 
stop listening to the mainstream

770
00:45:16,240 --> 00:45:21,840
media, try to inform themselves,
listen to people who do know, As

771
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:23,840
for example, Glenn Diesen and 
all the people that he 

772
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:28,720
interviews on on YouTube. 
A lot of former CIA and former 

773
00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:31,800
American military who are very 
well versed in what's going on. 

774
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:35,120
People like Larry Johnson, 
Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson and 

775
00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:36,840
so on. 
He people who were Cold War 

776
00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:41,040
specialists who talk about why 
this relentless eastward 

777
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:45,800
expansion of NATO by I think 
1000 miles was of course going 

778
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:49,640
to provoke Russia. 
It was going to be unacceptable 

779
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:52,720
to them in terms of their the 
security architecture. 

780
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:55,440
And it was something that 
America would never allow to 

781
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:58,320
take place on its own borders. 
So why would they expect the 

782
00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:00,360
Russians to? 
Yeah, absolutely. 

783
00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:02,240
But we're not allowed to think 
like that, are we? 

784
00:46:02,240 --> 00:46:05,560
And, and, and that leads us 
into, you know, the, the 

785
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:08,000
influence of the media. 
But what I'd like to ask you 

786
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:10,520
about is the influence that the 
security and intelligence 

787
00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:14,200
services have on the media and 
how that relationship works and 

788
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:17,760
how you've seen that work. 
Yeah, I mean, I I faced a huge 

789
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:22,440
amount of censorship with my 
book and ultimately had to self 

790
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:24,280
publish it. 
It then got taken over by 

791
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:26,280
Palgrave McMillan and Pluto 
Press. 

792
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:30,320
But I found it very, very hard 
to get my story out, even though

793
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:34,680
I the book was very, very well 
received and is available 

794
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:37,720
throughout Afghanistan and 
Pakistan and it can be found on 

795
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:41,800
Amazon. 
But for example, if I appeared 

796
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:45,720
on the Today programme, which I 
I was able to get on the Today 

797
00:46:45,720 --> 00:46:47,960
programme, I think largely 
because at the time they were 

798
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:52,160
being criticised for not having 
had women interviewees. 

799
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:54,200
Most of the people that they 
interviewed at a certain time 

800
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:57,000
in, in, in at the time my book 
was published had been men. 

801
00:46:57,360 --> 00:47:02,800
But I then found that people 
like Sir Sherrod Cooper Coles, 

802
00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:08,560
who is SIS, that his book came 
out at the same time as mine. 

803
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:11,480
Funnily enough, the publisher 
had who had wanted to publish my

804
00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:13,960
book, his daughter was going to 
edit it. 

805
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:17,440
So that's why I pulled it and 
published it myself 'cause I 

806
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:20,520
didn't feel comfortable with 
having Sherrod Cooper Coles 

807
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:24,360
daughter involved in my book. 
But I then found that of course 

808
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:29,160
Rory Stewart was the only lens 
through which anyone wanted to 

809
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:32,320
talk about Afghan affairs. 
And I found that this was the 

810
00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:36,400
same with publishers, with radio
programmes, everything. 

811
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:40,240
Rory Stewart was everywhere. 
And despite the fact that I'd 

812
00:47:40,240 --> 00:47:43,640
been living in Kandahar as a 
sort of blonde girl from London 

813
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:49,360
during the, the time of the, the
height of Bin Laden, no one was 

814
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:51,920
interested, you know, and that 
I'd spent all that time there, 

815
00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:54,400
he'd gone off to Iraq and, and 
done his own thing. 

816
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:57,920
But I was asked, did I know him 
and did he approve of my work 

817
00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:01,360
sort of thing? 
So that was another kind of way 

818
00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:03,880
that one was censored. 
And then also, I forgot to say 

819
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:06,400
that with the Today programme, 
you would be drilled the day 

820
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:07,880
before they were going to have 
you on. 

821
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:10,840
And if you didn't answer the way
that they wanted you to and 

822
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:14,320
within the tram lines that 
they'd set, you basically would 

823
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:18,960
be sort of asked not to come. 
So it was very, very controlled.

824
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:20,600
And then, of course, for 
example, I had an interview with

825
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:23,800
Philip Hammond where I wasn't 
given a right of reply. 

826
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:26,160
And he was sort of saying, oh, 
well, she's just sitting in 

827
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:29,000
Geneva. 
I mean, this is the same Philip 

828
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:32,480
Hammond who is responsible, 
according to Ian Proud's book, 

829
00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:39,000
for basically reducing all of 
communication and diplomacy with

830
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:41,680
Russia when he was head of the 
Foreign Office. 

831
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:45,680
So yes, I mean, there are many 
ways that censorship takes 

832
00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:48,160
place. 
But, you know, thankfully I was 

833
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:50,840
able to promote my book through 
Facebook at the time that was 

834
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:53,720
published and then through doing
a lot of talks. 

835
00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:57,120
And ultimately, social media has
been a good thing because it's 

836
00:48:57,240 --> 00:48:59,720
it's been a sort of 
democratization of knowledge, 

837
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:02,960
whereas before all of this 
information only existed in 

838
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:06,840
silos that are controlled by 
intelligence agencies. 

839
00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:09,920
Because I definitely feel that a
lot of the journalists that I 

840
00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:14,400
knew in Afghanistan were working
for MI 6 and that, you know, 

841
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:16,840
that they're masquerading as 
journalists. 

842
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:20,520
I mean, one of them even went 
off and spent years working back

843
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:23,360
in the Foreign Office and and 
then suddenly reappeared at the 

844
00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:26,480
Telegraph. 
So yeah, what we're the way that

845
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:30,880
information is presented within 
the mainstream is very, very 

846
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:34,400
controlled and it's not going to
help the public to understand 

847
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:38,320
the world. 
No, well, I don't think there's 

848
00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:42,120
anyone who's in the business of 
making money who's in in whose 

849
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:45,960
interest it is that people do 
understand what's going on. 

850
00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:50,560
And, and I think, you know, 
really that strikes to the, to 

851
00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:57,320
the heart of the concern for the
people, which is can, can people

852
00:49:57,320 --> 00:50:01,040
do anything to stop this from 
happening over and over and over

853
00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:03,200
again? 
And, and it, you know, it, do 

854
00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:08,080
people have agency? 
I mean, via democracy or via a 

855
00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:11,520
supposedly democratic process? 
Perhaps not, but but you know, I

856
00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:14,800
mean, for example, Chris 
Coverdale is somebody that I've 

857
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:18,200
interviewed now a couple of 
times for UK column talking, you

858
00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:21,640
know, his point being no, no 
taxation for for war. 

859
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:24,480
So, so, you know, holding 
government to account by by that

860
00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:28,680
means. 
Clearly back in 2003 and and 

861
00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:31,640
whatnot, there were large 
demonstrations against going to 

862
00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:34,360
war in Iraq and whatnot. 
But I mean, do you see that, 

863
00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:38,840
that there is a way to stop 
this, this sort of intervention 

864
00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:43,600
war machine? 
I mean, I suppose that what I 

865
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:45,360
haven't seen those interviews 
that you've done with him, but I

866
00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:47,520
have heard of this through other
channels. 

867
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:51,480
And I'd say yes, definitely 
people should ask where their 

868
00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:54,600
council tax is going and whether
it's legitimate and legal that 

869
00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:58,600
their council tax is potentially
going to fund these wars. 

870
00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:00,880
And is that why it keeps 
increasing? 

871
00:51:01,440 --> 00:51:05,240
Is it all going to Zelensky and 
and his big money laundering 

872
00:51:05,240 --> 00:51:09,280
operation in Ukraine? 
I think people need to start 

873
00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:12,480
asking the questions where is 
our money actually going and 

874
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:14,920
what are we getting in return 
for it? 

875
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:18,840
And is it really the case that I
mean, I, I saw a little clip of 

876
00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:21,240
Chrystia Freeland being 
interviewed by being sort of 

877
00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:27,720
door stepped in in Davos 
yesterday and she was asked 

878
00:51:27,720 --> 00:51:30,520
about Ukraine and she kept 
saying Ukraine is, we're 

879
00:51:30,520 --> 00:51:32,760
fighting in Ukraine for Canada's
democracy. 

880
00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:35,320
And I just thought, I can't 
think of anything more ludicrous

881
00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:37,080
to say. 
It's nothing to do with Canada. 

882
00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:40,080
You've got a massive ocean in 
between you Russia. 

883
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:43,640
There's no proof of Russia's 
expansionist, you know, that 

884
00:51:43,640 --> 00:51:47,880
Russia's about to invade Canada.
It's completely ludicrous. 

885
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:50,640
Why would people still believe 
all of this nonsense? 

886
00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:54,160
And I think, I'm afraid that I, 
I feel that people are quite 

887
00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:57,720
apathetic and possibly because 
they feel they have no agency. 

888
00:51:57,720 --> 00:52:00,920
But so therefore it means that 
things are going to have to get 

889
00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:04,320
to the stage where people's 
pensions are, are maybe worth a 

890
00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:07,160
cup of coffee once a month and 
they can't afford to buy 

891
00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:10,240
anything else with them because 
our purchasing power is going to

892
00:52:10,240 --> 00:52:13,560
decline hugely. 
Particularly, I mean, if you 

893
00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:15,920
look at what's going on in the 
gold and silver markets and the 

894
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:20,520
gilt market and and so on, you 
know, the currencies are falling

895
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:24,000
all the time. 
The British, the paper markets 

896
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:28,360
and, and silver in London, the 
LBMA are blowing up right now, 

897
00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:30,160
which is why the silver price is
going through the roof. 

898
00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:32,840
I think until people really 
start to feel it in their 

899
00:52:32,840 --> 00:52:37,440
pocket, they're not going to 
find the courage to really stand

900
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:41,520
up to this and and say no more. 
I think that's a very good 

901
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:43,360
point. 
I mean, of course in the UK and 

902
00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:46,800
I think in a lot of European 
nations, the spectre of 

903
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:50,000
conscription is looming ever 
larger and that would be 

904
00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:53,160
something that makes it a rather
more stark reality. 

905
00:52:53,160 --> 00:52:56,280
Now I know you don't have a 
crystal ball, none of none of us

906
00:52:56,280 --> 00:52:58,320
really does. 
But clearly you have a, you 

907
00:52:58,320 --> 00:53:01,680
know, a very well-rounded and 
deeply researched background 

908
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:03,400
into the subjects that we're 
discussing. 

909
00:53:04,360 --> 00:53:07,680
The pace of change through the 
end of 2025, the beginning of 

910
00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:10,600
2026, has seemed sort of 
alarmingly fast. 

911
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:15,520
How, at least in general terms, 
how do you see events panning 

912
00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:17,880
out over the course of this 
year? 

913
00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:22,080
That's a big question. 
I mean, there's so much going on

914
00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:26,840
in the background and I think 
one has to take a step back and 

915
00:53:26,880 --> 00:53:30,320
not be emotionally tied. 
For example, I mean, everyone's 

916
00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:33,280
getting hysterical about Trump 
and and Greenland and and what's

917
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:36,400
going on in Davos and what's 
been going on with Venezuela. 

918
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:41,760
I think that one needs to try to
inform oneself by looking at a 

919
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:46,440
more diverse set of analysts on,
for example, YouTube and people 

920
00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:51,320
like Alex Krayner, Tom Luongo, 
maybe those, I mean, some people

921
00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:54,040
say they're sort of apologists 
for this idea that Trump is 

922
00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:58,320
really trying to rebuild 
America, to reassure industry to

923
00:53:58,320 --> 00:54:02,120
America's shores. 
Whereas the sort of Davos elite,

924
00:54:02,120 --> 00:54:05,840
the Davos crowd, the Black Rock 
people are, you know, telling us

925
00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:07,640
that you'll learn nothing and 
you'll be happy. 

926
00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:14,120
So I think it's people need to 
be a little less emotional and 

927
00:54:14,120 --> 00:54:18,440
to understand perhaps that what 
Trump is trying to do is to 

928
00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:22,240
defend the interest as the 
United States, to consolidate 

929
00:54:22,240 --> 00:54:24,760
the position of the United 
States in their hemisphere, 

930
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:28,920
which is about more influence in
Canada, more influence in 

931
00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:30,280
Greenland. 
I mean, I understand there's a 

932
00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:32,960
separatist movement in Alberta. 
People are fed up with the 

933
00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:36,200
globalists, fed up with the 
Davos crowd, fed up with Mark 

934
00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:41,240
Carney, all of this green 
washing, the high taxes, the the

935
00:54:41,240 --> 00:54:44,840
inability to run businesses, 
whether it's mining or, or 

936
00:54:44,840 --> 00:54:49,280
whatever that people want to be 
free to, to build a future for 

937
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:54,160
their children and not to be 
taxed to the hilt for these sort

938
00:54:54,160 --> 00:54:59,680
of globalist initiatives. 
And so yes, I think, I'm afraid,

939
00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:02,920
I think Europe looks, looks to 
be a very bad future 

940
00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:06,080
immediately. 
You know, the, the Americans are

941
00:55:06,080 --> 00:55:08,720
looking after themselves. 
They're looking after the, the 

942
00:55:08,720 --> 00:55:10,640
fact they've got all these 
interest payments to make on 

943
00:55:10,640 --> 00:55:12,600
their debt, which of course 
Europe has as well. 

944
00:55:12,840 --> 00:55:16,560
But we've managed to cut 
ourselves off from cheap energy 

945
00:55:16,560 --> 00:55:20,720
from Russia while importing 
energy from the United States at

946
00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:25,240
three times the cost. 
And we have a massive welfare 

947
00:55:25,240 --> 00:55:29,080
bill, which is growing as we 
have more and more immigration. 

948
00:55:29,560 --> 00:55:33,040
And we have people who don't 
want to work because they're 

949
00:55:33,040 --> 00:55:34,800
working from home. 
So they're completely 

950
00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:37,480
unproductive. 
And, you know, I mean, there are

951
00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:38,800
some benefits to working from 
home. 

952
00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:42,240
But I think when it becomes a 
sort of a real thing where 

953
00:55:42,240 --> 00:55:45,160
people are very defensive of 
their rights, but they don't, 

954
00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:48,160
you know, they need to see the 
the bigger picture that actually

955
00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:52,680
how how effective can I really 
be when I'm not going into the 

956
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:54,800
office? 
I mean, you know, are, are 

957
00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:57,280
people productive if they're all
working from home and looking 

958
00:55:57,280 --> 00:55:58,640
after their kids at the same 
time? 

959
00:55:59,400 --> 00:56:02,080
We have obviously also a massive
demographic problem. 

960
00:56:02,480 --> 00:56:06,440
I am one person who feels that 
that women should be allowed to 

961
00:56:06,440 --> 00:56:09,960
bring up their children, that 
there is has been this horrible 

962
00:56:10,360 --> 00:56:13,880
kind of demonization of, of 
women who choose to do that and 

963
00:56:13,880 --> 00:56:15,920
they're called trad wives or 
something. 

964
00:56:16,360 --> 00:56:19,200
Children need to be protected. 
You know, we hear all these 

965
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:22,080
awful stories of what happens to
them in daycare with these 

966
00:56:22,080 --> 00:56:25,200
sexual predators and so on. 
I mean, what's more precious 

967
00:56:25,200 --> 00:56:30,080
than the next generation? 
So I think also if women didn't 

968
00:56:30,080 --> 00:56:34,120
have to to, you know, if we 
didn't need 2 salaries to keep 

969
00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:37,520
life and body and soul together,
women would be able to have more

970
00:56:37,520 --> 00:56:40,320
children and then we might not 
have the demographic problems 

971
00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:44,120
that we have had. 
So I think there's going to be a

972
00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:47,120
massive wake up call in Europe. 
But you know, all these issues 

973
00:56:47,120 --> 00:56:51,880
like LGBT and transgender are 
going to be kicked into touch 

974
00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:54,040
as, as it becomes increasingly 
obvious that they're, they're 

975
00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:58,040
not fundamental to actually 
putting bread and, and water on 

976
00:56:58,040 --> 00:57:01,080
the table. 
And, you know, as we become 

977
00:57:01,680 --> 00:57:05,880
progressively more impoverished,
I'm afraid, given the appalling 

978
00:57:05,880 --> 00:57:09,840
decisions that have been taken 
by our political class over 

979
00:57:09,840 --> 00:57:13,400
things like Ukraine, which I I 
see is definitely has been a 

980
00:57:13,400 --> 00:57:17,560
project by the neocons. 
And I've seen this since 2014 

981
00:57:17,560 --> 00:57:20,480
when Paul Craig Roberts has been
talking about it in the United 

982
00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:25,200
States, that this has been a 
project to support corporate 

983
00:57:25,200 --> 00:57:28,080
interests of Black Rock and 
Monsanto and so on. 

984
00:57:28,080 --> 00:57:31,360
And I thought, for example, two 
or three years ago when the 

985
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:35,520
British hosted A pledging 
conference for reconstruction of

986
00:57:35,520 --> 00:57:39,360
Ukraine while the war had only 
just started and, and they were 

987
00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:43,400
starting to sort of try to 
parcel out interests of to 

988
00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:45,000
people like Black Rock and so 
on. 

989
00:57:45,080 --> 00:57:46,800
And it just seemed completely 
absurd. 

990
00:57:47,000 --> 00:57:50,080
What world are they living in? 
Did they really believe their 

991
00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:52,760
own propaganda that that they 
were winning the war? 

992
00:57:54,560 --> 00:57:57,440
And yeah, I mean, it's, you 
know, some of the propaganda is 

993
00:57:57,440 --> 00:58:02,040
very deeply evil, as we've seen 
with Butcher, as we've seen with

994
00:58:02,040 --> 00:58:05,160
the OPCW situation in Duma and 
Syria. 

995
00:58:05,480 --> 00:58:08,400
And I'm afraid British 
intelligence has played a very 

996
00:58:08,400 --> 00:58:12,760
evil role in a lot of these 
psychological operations to 

997
00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:16,280
confuse the public about what's 
really going on. 

998
00:58:16,720 --> 00:58:22,200
And ultimately the British 
people will pay the price for 

999
00:58:22,240 --> 00:58:26,840
for these massive mistakes which
have cost 1,000,000 billions of 

1000
00:58:26,840 --> 00:58:28,760
pounds. 
Yeah. 

1001
00:58:29,080 --> 00:58:34,520
I mean, unfortunately I, I can't
pick a hole in your logic, but I

1002
00:58:34,520 --> 00:58:38,080
think, you know, this is, this 
is heavy, heavy material, which 

1003
00:58:38,080 --> 00:58:39,760
is not at all to say that it 
shouldn't be discussed. 

1004
00:58:39,760 --> 00:58:41,720
It absolutely should. 
And I think you gave some very 

1005
00:58:41,720 --> 00:58:45,080
sound advice earlier about 
encouraging people to read and 

1006
00:58:45,080 --> 00:58:48,600
to think more and to, to push 
beyond the boundaries within 

1007
00:58:48,600 --> 00:58:53,560
which we are expected to exist. 
And so, you know, just just on a

1008
00:58:53,560 --> 00:58:57,680
positive note as we sort of wind
up, I mean, the fact is, we're 

1009
00:58:57,680 --> 00:58:59,680
here. 
We've got to get on with it. 

1010
00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:02,600
How? 
How do we How do you keep 

1011
00:59:02,600 --> 00:59:08,120
yourself sane and happy? 
I mean, I keep myself, I, I 

1012
00:59:08,120 --> 00:59:09,920
actually like to know what's 
going on. 

1013
00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:12,040
I have a great sense of 
curiosity. 

1014
00:59:12,560 --> 00:59:16,400
I started to distrust the 
mainstream media when I learnt 

1015
00:59:16,400 --> 00:59:19,720
that the story of 9/11 was 
nothing to do with what we had 

1016
00:59:19,720 --> 00:59:22,360
been told. 
And ever since then, I've been, 

1017
00:59:22,600 --> 00:59:26,440
I've had a voracious appetite 
for, for reading books that 

1018
00:59:26,440 --> 00:59:29,040
aren't the, the, the ones that 
are reviewed in, in the, in the 

1019
00:59:29,040 --> 00:59:31,600
mainstream news. 
I mean, through the process of 

1020
00:59:31,600 --> 00:59:36,400
publishing my own book and the, 
the blockages that I faced and 

1021
00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:39,720
then learning about 911 just a 
few years later when I moved to 

1022
00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:45,240
the, to New York, I, I have 
really changed the way that I 

1023
00:59:45,240 --> 00:59:49,600
think about the world radically.
I mean, I've gone sort of 180° I

1024
00:59:49,600 --> 00:59:52,040
and I think, you know, people 
need to think for themselves. 

1025
00:59:52,080 --> 00:59:55,360
And that means potentially, I 
mean, I can't say that I've got 

1026
00:59:55,360 --> 00:59:58,280
a massive vegetable garden, but 
I think really trying to be more

1027
00:59:58,280 --> 01:00:01,200
self-sufficient and 
understanding that the state and

1028
01:00:01,200 --> 01:00:04,360
the government is not going to 
look after you and that if you 

1029
01:00:04,360 --> 01:00:08,360
need to disinvest from the 
financial system and invest in 

1030
01:00:08,360 --> 01:00:12,680
gold and silver. 
Or buy some land. 

1031
01:00:13,200 --> 01:00:15,640
Of course, if you've got any 
resources, most people don't 

1032
01:00:15,640 --> 01:00:20,080
have any resources, but just to 
try to inform yourself about 

1033
01:00:20,080 --> 01:00:23,480
what's going on and to, to take 
measures, whether it's, you 

1034
01:00:23,480 --> 01:00:28,360
know, trying to build a pantry 
or build a vegetable garden an, 

1035
01:00:28,360 --> 01:00:31,280
an alternative supply of fuel, 
you know, having a wood burner, 

1036
01:00:31,600 --> 01:00:33,080
for example. 
I mean, the, the government's 

1037
01:00:33,080 --> 01:00:36,240
trying to get rid of all of this
to make us dependent upon the 

1038
01:00:36,240 --> 01:00:39,840
state, dependent on, on them 
with this sort of E grid of 

1039
01:00:39,840 --> 01:00:44,120
electric cars and just keep 
independent and understand why 

1040
01:00:44,120 --> 01:00:47,600
they're doing this and reject 
digital ID. 

1041
01:00:47,920 --> 01:00:53,240
And, you know, try to keep as 
much of of your life non digital

1042
01:00:53,240 --> 01:00:55,720
as as you can, whether it's 
using cash, as people like 

1043
01:00:55,720 --> 01:00:59,200
Catherine and Austin Fitz 
advise, and just being 

1044
01:00:59,200 --> 01:01:01,040
self-sufficient as much as you 
can. 

1045
01:01:02,440 --> 01:01:04,920
Good sound advice and simple 
steps. 

1046
01:01:04,920 --> 01:01:08,280
That's absolutely I think the 
right note to to draw to a close

1047
01:01:08,280 --> 01:01:09,880
on. 
But before I do let you go, just

1048
01:01:09,880 --> 01:01:14,560
just remind viewers and 
listeners about your book and 

1049
01:01:14,560 --> 01:01:17,800
where you would prefer that they
went to purchase it. 

1050
01:01:18,280 --> 01:01:20,200
Well, it's been a while now 
since it was published, so I'm 

1051
01:01:20,200 --> 01:01:23,800
afraid I'm at the moment I'm. 
I did have a website at one 

1052
01:01:23,840 --> 01:01:25,280
stage, but then it got knocked 
down. 

1053
01:01:25,600 --> 01:01:30,720
I'm afraid probably Amazon, 
Possibly, yeah. 

1054
01:01:30,720 --> 01:01:33,280
I'm not in the UK at the moment 
so I can't just easily resupply 

1055
01:01:33,280 --> 01:01:37,000
people, but if they wanted, 
maybe if people desperately 

1056
01:01:37,000 --> 01:01:39,680
wanted and they can't get on on 
Amazon, maybe you could give 

1057
01:01:39,680 --> 01:01:42,480
them my e-mail address if they 
come to you. 

1058
01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:45,320
But you know, I've, I've 
certainly still got some copies,

1059
01:01:45,720 --> 01:01:48,840
but I think they'll find on 
Amazon.com or Amazon.co.uk. 

1060
01:01:49,400 --> 01:01:51,480
OK, super. 
Well, as I say, there will be 

1061
01:01:51,480 --> 01:01:55,040
notes about all of this in the 
below the interview on the UK 

1062
01:01:55,040 --> 01:01:58,040
column website and otherwise in 
terms of sort of getting in 

1063
01:01:58,040 --> 01:02:01,320
touch or following your, your 
thinking what about social media

1064
01:02:01,320 --> 01:02:04,160
or, or any other activity that 
people can follow of yours? 

1065
01:02:04,440 --> 01:02:07,920
I'm on Twitter and I'm on 
Facebook, so I think Twitter is 

1066
01:02:07,920 --> 01:02:11,480
at L Morgan Edwards, something 
like that, and Facebook it's 

1067
01:02:11,480 --> 01:02:14,560
just Lucy Morgan Edwards. 
OK, so I can be followed. 

1068
01:02:14,800 --> 01:02:16,600
All right, perfect. 
I'm not sure that something like

1069
01:02:16,600 --> 01:02:18,800
that quite gets there these 
days, but I'll put the I'll put 

1070
01:02:18,800 --> 01:02:20,480
the exact link in the in the 
note. 

1071
01:02:21,120 --> 01:02:25,200
Lucy, It's it's been a huge 
amount of information to get 

1072
01:02:25,200 --> 01:02:28,360
through, not just information, 
but but opinion and and also 

1073
01:02:28,360 --> 01:02:30,880
evidence of your own 
experiences. 

1074
01:02:30,880 --> 01:02:33,960
And I think that is absolutely 
invaluable, beyond compare. 

1075
01:02:33,960 --> 01:02:37,040
So thank you very much indeed 
for joining me at UK Column and 

1076
01:02:37,240 --> 01:02:39,440
I hope we'll speak again. 
Thanks very much, Charles. 

1077
01:02:39,600 --> 01:02:40,400
It's kind of you to have me.