1 00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:10,400 Hello everyone, this is Diane Rasmussen, Makati with UK Column 2 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:12,680 News. I'm really happy today to be 3 00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:15,520 talking with Judith Brown, who runs a really, really 4 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:18,840 interesting sub stack called the Control of Information, which of 5 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:21,360 course is of particular interest to me as an information 6 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:24,200 scientist and librarian for many, many years. 7 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:27,640 Judith, I know that you've been interviewed previously by UK 8 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:30,240 Column, but just for viewers who might not have seen that 9 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:32,280 interview, would you mind telling us a little bit about 10 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:35,520 yourself please? Yes, thank you very much, Diane, 11 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:39,360 for inviting me to speak. My name is Judith Brown. 12 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:45,440 I was a nurse in in the Middle East and in Africa. 13 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:49,880 And when I was there I sort of felt that the things that I'd 14 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:54,320 seen didn't relate to the things that I'd expected to see. 15 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:56,840 So especially in the Middle East. 16 00:00:57,040 --> 00:01:03,880 So when I came back to UK and I retired, I undertook APHD, which 17 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:10,440 was looking into the way that the people influenced the media 18 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:18,000 in order to create the images that they wanted to to portray. 19 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:20,800 In other words, I looked at the media as a sort of as a 20 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:25,560 competing space. And following that, I did more 21 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:30,720 research because when the Yemen war started, I noticed that it 22 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:34,000 was getting very little media coverage, even though perhaps it 23 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:38,920 should have done because, you know, UK has had a lot of links 24 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:42,000 with Yemen. It was under British occupation 25 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:48,400 for many, many years. And so, so I, I, I did some more 26 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:52,080 investigations into story selection in that war. 27 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:59,720 And then later on I joined a group of academics and I looked 28 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:06,840 into censorship, both how governments controlled 29 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:11,680 information themselves and how that interacted with the the 30 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:15,640 very extensive Fact Check platform group, which I think 31 00:02:15,640 --> 00:02:20,040 that when I was on UK column before we discussed that in in 32 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:21,840 great detail. Right. 33 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:25,120 So can you tell me a little bit more about your PhD work and 34 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:26,800 what what you found in the results? 35 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:32,000 Well, when I did my PhD, which was at Exeter, it was called the 36 00:02:32,000 --> 00:02:35,440 influences on Arab imagery in the British media. 37 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:40,280 And I looked at different groups that had different perspectives 38 00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:46,360 like British Muslims, the British government, the the 39 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:52,920 Palestine lobby, the pro Israeli lobby and just different groups. 40 00:02:52,920 --> 00:02:58,720 And they also looked at at the commercial interests of Arab and 41 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:01,200 they're the way that they portrayed themselves. 42 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:08,320 Like for example, the the Emirates airline sponsors a lot 43 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:11,360 of sporting events and sporting venues. 44 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:15,200 And I looked at how those interacted with the media and, 45 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:19,480 and what, how how successful they were. 46 00:03:19,920 --> 00:03:23,640 In fact, what I found, which I sort of didn't really expect to 47 00:03:23,640 --> 00:03:29,120 find was that this was at the time of the build up to the Iraq 48 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:35,320 war was that in fact, it very much gave like for example, when 49 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:38,200 you looked at the media coverage of the Iraq War, it wasn't 50 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:41,080 really talking about Iraq. It was talking about whether 51 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:45,000 America should invade. And when I interviewed peace 52 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:47,920 groups in Israel, for example, and I said what makes you go to 53 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:49,880 the media? They said, well, we listened to 54 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:55,040 what America says and if they say something that's that's that 55 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:58,520 that's likely to be a story, then we go to the media because 56 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:01,800 we're more likely to get hurt. So overall, you could see that 57 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:06,320 had hegemonic influence on media coverage in UK. 58 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:11,360 But the very interesting one was the was the section where I 59 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:18,000 looked at that people who had Arabs who weren't trying to 60 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:21,240 influence the media, but were trying to sort of like portray 61 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:26,200 themselves, like artists, like authors, like business 62 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:28,320 interests. And in fact, when they were 63 00:04:28,520 --> 00:04:31,800 trying to portray themselves as opposed to trying to 64 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:36,040 counterbalance American influence, they were much more 65 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:38,320 effective. And I thought that was, that was 66 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:42,920 quite an interesting conclusion and it showed that Arabs need to 67 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:47,440 sort of like relay their own narratives and their own stories 68 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:52,320 rather than trying to counter a different narrative. 69 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:56,480 And that was that was very interesting to me. 70 00:04:56,920 --> 00:05:03,320 And then I did some work for a non profit as a volunteer called 71 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:08,960 Arab Media Watch where we took stories to the and that we 72 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:12,360 looked at stories in the British media that portrayed Arab 73 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:15,760 imagery. And we where we felt that there 74 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:19,720 was bias or inaccuracies. We, we appealed against that to 75 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:24,920 the newspapers and also to the bodies that, that, that, that 76 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:29,560 oversaw the, the BBC, the television companies, 77 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:31,320 advertising companies and so forth. 78 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:33,520 So we were reasonably successful at that. 79 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:36,280 And then Arab Media Watch closed. 80 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:43,320 It was, it had funding from from various Arab governments who a 81 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:47,720 lot of them, like Saudi Arabia, for example, then started their 82 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:53,440 own media influencing groups. So they, so they stopped funding 83 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:58,840 us and that that closed down and then and then and then the, the 84 00:05:58,840 --> 00:06:03,800 war began in in Yemen. And that was when I looked at 85 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:08,120 story selection in particular, what made the media select one 86 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:10,840 story as opposed to another story. 87 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:15,440 Then I then sort of had a gap because I thought that was the 88 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:20,280 end of my research days. But at the start of COVID, I 89 00:06:20,280 --> 00:06:25,040 think that for two reasons. One, because I had worked for 90 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:29,320 The Who and I knew all of the guidelines relating to 91 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:32,920 infectious diseases because that was the bread and butter of my 92 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:39,720 work. I everyday I managed media and 93 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:42,280 the control of infections and that was what I did. 94 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:46,080 And I could see that it wasn't as it should be. 95 00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:50,720 I actually could see that big from my previous work on the 96 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:54,080 media that they were using techniques that were propaganda 97 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:58,600 techniques like using short phrases, reporting over all 98 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:01,680 different sorts of media, the same phrases were being used. 99 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:03,960 So it looked like a propaganda exercise. 100 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:09,600 And that was when I I joined Panda and started to do research 101 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:13,400 there, which I'm not so much linked to Panda now I'm more 102 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:17,480 independent, but I'm trying to write up all of the research 103 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:20,480 that I, that I undertook when I was in Panda. 104 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:26,880 So it's it's been very exciting. That is, that's very exciting 105 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:31,080 and very interesting. And it's it kind of reminded me 106 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:35,080 a bit of my own PhD, which was actually called news photography 107 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:39,080 image retrieval practises. And one of the things that I was 108 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:43,120 looking at as someone doing a PhD in library and information 109 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:46,680 science and informatics, the questions that I wanted to ask 110 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:49,280 these news photographers was about how they worked with their 111 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:52,800 photo archives and how they worked at the time. 112 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:56,240 It was kind of when we were transitioning from from print to 113 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:59,440 digital images. And so some of the historical 114 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:02,280 images they still had in print in the photo library, in the 115 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:05,120 newspapers. These are some major newspapers 116 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:07,720 and some of them were freelance photographers that I spoke with. 117 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:12,920 But the the issue of switching to prints to digital and what 118 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:15,800 did they, what were they doing with indexing and archiving 119 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:19,160 their images that they needed, you know, for immediate use as 120 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:23,040 well As for historical purposes. But one of the things that they 121 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:27,080 wanted to talk to me the most about was manipulation and how 122 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:31,360 privately they were concerned that their work was being used 123 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:35,400 to manipulate the public and spread propaganda to the point 124 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:39,240 to where the photo editors that were choosing the images were 125 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:43,320 manipulating the images to make the public believe something 126 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:44,520 else. And it was interesting that she 127 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:47,520 mentioned the Iraq war because one example that stuck out to me 128 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:52,080 was a photographer who covered the invasion of Iraq in 2003 129 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:55,400 Baghdad. And what the one of his famous 130 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:59,760 images from covering that war would look like a sandstorm 131 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:02,480 where there's, you know, sort of all the sand blowing around and 132 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:05,480 it looks very dystopian, apocalyptic. 133 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:09,520 But what he actually told me was that they had manipulated that 134 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:12,560 photo to make the sand look red, when actually it was more like 135 00:09:12,560 --> 00:09:15,320 a, a brown colour. And that wasn't his choice. 136 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:18,520 That was the photo editor. And it was just a very, it ended 137 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:22,480 up being a very interesting exploration into understanding 138 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:26,720 what they do with the, the visual images and how they want 139 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:29,280 to use this for, you know, the propaganda purposes. 140 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:31,720 And then of course, there's, you know, like you said, the, the, 141 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:36,000 the words in, in COVID, like the hands, face space and the stay 142 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:38,480 tuned metres apart and all of those, these things that we were 143 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:41,640 told over and over again. But the imagery was just as bad 144 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:43,600 in COVID. All of the red everywhere, all 145 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:46,640 of the fear, right? This is scary red colour. 146 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:48,880 Everything is red coloured. Here's the arrows, the one way 147 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:51,040 arrows in them. Supermarkets were red in some 148 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:54,880 cases, you know, all of these things that they used to make us 149 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:58,880 try to be as afraid as possible. And, and so that that's a really 150 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:02,120 interesting thing. And I'm curious now with what's 151 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:06,200 going on between Israel, Iran and everything happening in the 152 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:08,240 Middle East. Have you been watching any of 153 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:11,480 the recent developments and and have you had any thoughts on 154 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:14,640 that? I haven't been exploring that 155 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:18,760 from an academic point of view or, or I haven't done research 156 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:21,120 on it in any to any great extent. 157 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:28,720 I did do some research earlier on AF PS fact cheques of the, of 158 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:33,520 the, the, the initial assault on Gaza in I think in the first 159 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:37,640 three months. And what was quite interesting 160 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:41,880 was how they, instead of exploring the main issues, they 161 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:47,160 were fact checking trivia. Like, for example, some people 162 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:52,560 alleged that Palestinians were acting parts and a lot of the 163 00:10:52,560 --> 00:10:57,720 ones that they actually investigated were false and they 164 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:03,560 weren't sort of accurate. But there's no, there was no 165 00:11:03,560 --> 00:11:08,480 indication as to who posted those false pictures saying that 166 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:12,040 they were incidents in Gaza and they were actually from a 167 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:16,720 completely different war or from from a long time ago. 168 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:21,720 Of course, that might have been, for example, people who weren't 169 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:25,720 sympathetic to the Palestinians because at that time there were 170 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:29,840 a lot of images that were available coming out of Gaza 171 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:31,800 itself. And those weren't the ones that 172 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:34,320 they were fact checking. They were thought fact checking 173 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:40,200 the ones that that were that that were false. 174 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:43,800 So it so I found that quite interesting that they were 175 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:46,200 always looking at trivial issues. 176 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:49,560 I mean, for example, at that time they were, there was 177 00:11:49,560 --> 00:11:54,600 already talk of, of genocide and of South Africa taking this to 178 00:11:54,600 --> 00:12:00,320 the ICJ and they didn't Fact Check whether it was likely 179 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:04,560 that, that, that what was happening in, in Gaza met the 180 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:08,440 criteria of genocide. It was the, it was the trivia 181 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:11,040 that they were fact checking. And I think that's the only 182 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:13,040 academic research that have done. 183 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:18,080 But, but certainly recently you do see a lot of stories on 184 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:23,240 Facebook and from doctors who, European and American who are 185 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:28,960 going to Gaza in order to help out with the medical situation. 186 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:31,040 And they describe what's happening. 187 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:36,800 And that isn't what you see in the mainstream media or the OR 188 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:40,920 the main or the broadcast media. Although I do think that 189 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:46,280 recently there have been one or two articles by quite surprising 190 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:52,120 people like Friedman in the New York Times has actually 191 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:58,360 questioned whether what Israeli is doing now is, is, is is 192 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:03,320 positive in terms of America. So, so I think that there are 193 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:07,160 some moves in the media recently. 194 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:12,400 I think just because everything is is so absolutely terrible, 195 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:17,040 you know, like people queuing for food and then being shot at 196 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:21,680 according to first hand accounts that that I've heard from there. 197 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:28,080 But but but so I think that there is sort of a bit more 198 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:34,360 concern amongst the media. Certainly there was letter sent 199 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:38,360 by I think about 200 BBC employees to say that. 200 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:44,000 I think this was in the last few days to say that that they were 201 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:48,560 forced to comply with an Israeli narrative instead of, you know, 202 00:13:48,560 --> 00:13:52,800 making up their own minds as to, as to what was the most relevant 203 00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:56,320 things to report about what's going on in Gaza. 204 00:13:56,640 --> 00:14:03,760 And so I, I think it's, it is a very challenging situation to 205 00:14:03,760 --> 00:14:08,800 try to get stories out of Gaza. But I think maybe the tide is 206 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:11,720 turning a little because things are getting so atrocious. 207 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:14,800 Yeah, that's true. We're very lucky to have Vanessa 208 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:19,080 Beeley here at UK Column. In terms of UK column, what I 209 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:24,520 have noticed is that a lot of people, I've tried to refer them 210 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:28,840 to UK column because I think that your coverage of the of the 211 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:32,160 Middle East conflict on UK column is one of the best. 212 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:35,960 I'm not saying that because you're there, but I do actually 213 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:38,960 think it's one of the best. So I have said that some 214 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:43,840 Palestine solidarity groups and you should listen to UK column, 215 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:47,440 especially on a Wednesday. Although other people have have 216 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:53,040 covered things relating to to UK column as well, relating to the 217 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:58,160 Palestine Israeli issue as well. But people have actually said to 218 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:01,240 me, oh, they only do that because they're anti Semitic. 219 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:06,680 And and then they sort of send me a hope not hate or some, some 220 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:11,200 of their organising. That's that's said that that UK 221 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:15,680 column is is an anti Semitic organisation to prove what 222 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:18,440 they're saying. And then it's very difficult 223 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:22,840 because I can say to them, well, that isn't my view. 224 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:26,720 Personally, I've listened to UK column for many years. 225 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:30,400 I obviously don't agree with everything that UK column says, 226 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:35,120 but but in terms of the of the coverage of the Middle East, I 227 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:37,720 have, I don't think it's anti Semitic And I think it's 228 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:42,840 accurate, but but people just, they aren't prepared to listen. 229 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:47,280 They've got this fixed view from from some website. 230 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:52,520 So I think that makes it difficult for for people to to 231 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:57,080 look at independent media. I mean, not only UK column, but 232 00:15:57,080 --> 00:16:01,400 there's other independent media sources that are very good, like 233 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:05,040 Declassified, for example. There's a lot of good stories 234 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:09,480 but but it's just very difficult to persuade people to look at 235 00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:12,920 them because of the smearing of the independent media. 236 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:17,720 No, it's something that we face constantly, obviously, just it's 237 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:20,840 a constant battle. And, you know, Vanessa Beeley 238 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:24,520 and Mike Robinson had been doing a Syria podcast, you know, after 239 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:27,200 what happened in Syria. And Vanessa, of course, had to 240 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:29,280 leave Syria and is now in Lebanon. 241 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:33,880 And they started doing a podcast for a few weeks to kind of get 242 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:37,200 into the issues because they're so complex and there's so much 243 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:39,000 that's happened and continues to happen. 244 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:43,240 And it's difficult for us in the West maybe to understand because 245 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:45,360 it's, it's so different from our reality. 246 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:49,280 But that that podcast series got taken down off our YouTube 247 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:52,240 channel. And, and so now Vanessa is 248 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:55,680 writing a weekly blog for us, which of course I'm, I'm 249 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:57,800 learning a lot from as the commissioning editor and the 250 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:00,440 copy editor. So I have to read and, and edit 251 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:04,040 all of it. And, and it's interesting that 252 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:07,800 we've had so far the as of today, this will be the third 253 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:11,480 week that we'll have a blog, but has to stay on our own website 254 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:15,200 to make sure that someone else doesn't run away with it. 255 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:18,079 So we can't, you know, put any more of these YouTube videos on 256 00:17:18,079 --> 00:17:21,640 because she's really uncovering and getting really into what's 257 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:24,920 going on. I think the visuals are 258 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:27,960 difficult because she's been including maps to help us 259 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:31,760 understand which parts of Syria are being controlled by what 260 00:17:31,760 --> 00:17:35,240 factions and is doing what. And that does help quite a bit 261 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:39,280 because it's all, it's all just so different from kind of a 262 00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:41,240 Western reality. And of course the language is 263 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:44,160 different and and the motivations are different. 264 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:46,240 So it's all it's all quite complex. 265 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:49,920 So you can't narrow all that complexity down to the two 266 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:53,880 minute BBC News clip where they're told that to say you 267 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:55,640 won't possibly be able to understand it. 268 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:59,400 And I think that's probably part of the reason why we have these 269 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:02,320 issues with people not wanting to listen to independent media 270 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:05,640 is because the BBC and the other mainstream sources have just 271 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:09,480 trained us to just believe the two the 22nd clips of whatever 272 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:10,840 they tell us. And then we're just supposed to 273 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:13,520 go about our day and, and believe it and not question 274 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:14,760 anymore. And then people get 275 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:17,560 uncomfortable when you ask them to go further into it. 276 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:21,520 So I, I think we, you know, we're up against a lot, but I 277 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:23,720 also think that people are starting to wake up and they're 278 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:26,920 starting to pay more attention to what independent media are 279 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:28,760 doing because they're starting to see through. 280 00:18:29,120 --> 00:18:32,360 Maybe there's more going on here than what we're actually being 281 00:18:32,360 --> 00:18:35,320 told on the surface by the the big channels. 282 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:39,840 So I guess that brings me into what we wanted to talk about 283 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:43,080 today, kind of the the main part of our interview, which is 284 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:47,360 censorship. So you got, I know we've talked 285 00:18:47,360 --> 00:18:50,880 before, but you got in touch with me recently about some work 286 00:18:50,880 --> 00:18:52,840 that you had done and published on your sub stack. 287 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:56,280 So maybe if you want to summarise that work a little bit 288 00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:58,200 for the viewers, then we can talk about it. 289 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:01,960 Well, what I've been doing on my sub stack, I've been looking at 290 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:08,120 at the legislation in different countries of which UK is one of 291 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:13,600 the most intrusive and censoring systems in the world I think. 292 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:19,360 And and looking at legislation in other countries. 293 00:19:19,360 --> 00:19:22,840 Sometimes it's very difficult to find background legislation 294 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:24,800 because of language difficulties. 295 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:28,440 Like for example, if when I'm looking at legislation in India, 296 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:32,000 I can't read any local legislation. 297 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:36,080 So I have to sort of like pick up little bits from from English 298 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:40,080 speaking websites that are evaluating that. 299 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:46,040 But, but in, in other situations in, in Europe, I can get a good 300 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:52,200 hang of the, of legislation as it exists, for example, and, and 301 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:58,640 America and, and, and in UK. And I'm just currently writing 302 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:01,720 up about South Africa, which was South America, which is 303 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:04,000 something I haven't actually looked at before. 304 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:10,960 And it's really interesting how the media is being controlled 305 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:14,920 there. But then I'm also looking at the 306 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:18,440 Fact Check industry, which is absolutely vast. 307 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:21,520 It's in every single country in the world. 308 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:26,080 Well, there's fact checking platforms and where we haven't 309 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:29,920 got English speaking Fact Check platforms because they're not 310 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:36,800 allowed in like for example in Russia and Azerbaijan, you, you, 311 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:41,200 they actually have Fact Check platforms around about that 312 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:44,320 country. Like, for example, in Russia, 313 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:48,880 there's, there's Fact Check platforms in, in Estonia, 314 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:53,160 Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, the, the countries that, that 315 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:58,160 surround Russia, that Fact Check on behalf of, of, of 316 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:03,840 intelligence and, and, and, and Facebook and social media. 317 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:09,440 So, so, but there's no country and no language in the world. 318 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:14,040 They advertise in minority languages, for example, for, for 319 00:21:14,120 --> 00:21:18,440 fact checkers and what they, they do Fact Check. 320 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:22,440 It's absolutely true that they Fact Check, but what they Fact 321 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:28,320 Check is not against truth or not against a range of opinions. 322 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:32,680 They Fact Check against one particular narrative and that is 323 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:37,600 the approved narrative. So, so say for example on on 324 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:44,000 climate, for example, they will only look at at the narrative of 325 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:48,520 the IPCC and they, and then sometimes the documents of the 326 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:53,040 IPCC are quite good. They are quite open and, and 327 00:21:53,360 --> 00:21:56,800 and, and and give it a sort of like quite a diverse picture. 328 00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:03,080 But then the summaries of the IPCC reports are all saying 329 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:07,320 that, you know, human activity is causing global change and 330 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:09,480 it's going to be irreversible soon. 331 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:13,160 But they always go to those sorts of narratives. 332 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:17,280 They, they go to experts that, that agree with, with their 333 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:21,680 positions and they quote the fact that most climate 334 00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:24,280 scientists agree with this narrative. 335 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:29,360 Now, which of course is true because the ones that in but 336 00:22:29,360 --> 00:22:33,280 didn't agree with with, with the mainstream narrative. 337 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:38,720 People like for example, Willie Soon, who was at Harvard, He, 338 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:43,680 he, he didn't, he didn't agree with the fact that humans are 339 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:47,160 the total cause of, of, of global warming. 340 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:49,360 He thought that the sun had a very big impact. 341 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:54,000 So of course he had to leave Harvard and he was very heavily 342 00:22:54,000 --> 00:23:00,360 smeared as people were saying he took money from huge of money 343 00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:05,600 from, from fossil fuel industry. And that's what what persuaded 344 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:10,400 him to do as he did. And and it's a bit rich from the 345 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:15,080 from, from the Fact Check industry to say that because 346 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:20,400 it's actually, I was very reluctant until recently to say 347 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:22,680 that it's a billion dollar industry. 348 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:28,400 But then information was released to say that Biden was 349 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:32,520 funding, that Biden's administration was funding the 350 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:39,160 fact checked industry by by billions of pounds, 1.4 billion 351 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:42,480 a year or something. And so therefore I can now say 352 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:47,920 that if I've got that, if I know that that just one small portion 353 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:51,080 of the, of the Fact Check industry is over a billion 354 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:54,800 pounds, I can actually now openly say it's a billion # 355 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,480 industry and the Fact Check platforms. 356 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:01,200 But if, if there wasn't any censorship, they wouldn't have a 357 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,920 job. They, you can, you can pass 358 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:08,840 legislation like for example, that they were all on 359 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:13,440 legislation like the DSA, the OSA in UK. 360 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:17,960 You can have moves that like for example, the BBC initiative, the 361 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:22,320 trusted news initiative, But, but you have to check that 362 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:26,520 there's compliance with, with those legislations and, and with 363 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:30,840 those initiatives as they call them. 364 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:35,160 And so you can only do that if you have a number of sort of 365 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:40,200 thousands of people situated all over the world that can use 366 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:46,200 algorithms and that usually it's a human machine interface to, 367 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:50,920 to, to check that nobody is overstepping the mark. 368 00:24:51,360 --> 00:24:56,920 And then they apply penalties because if people keep to the 369 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:02,120 approved line, then they can get things like advertising revenue. 370 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:06,000 Whereas if they don't, then then they are, they're denied 371 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:09,120 advertising revenue. So therefore it encourages 372 00:25:09,120 --> 00:25:14,480 people to keep to the line. Then there was an investigation 373 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,200 done in Fact Check platforms in Indonesia. 374 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:22,720 And some of the editors in, they said things like, well, we're 375 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:28,120 actually colonised by Google. We have, we, we have to do what 376 00:25:28,120 --> 00:25:32,400 Google says, you know, so, so they actually use the word 377 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:36,840 colonisation in, in the, in the research that was done into, 378 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:43,400 into the media industry in, in Indonesia. 379 00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:46,240 And I'm sure that that occurs all over the world as well. 380 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:52,880 So it's it's it's essential and in order to get the global 381 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:57,160 governments, you can see the effect of that because what the 382 00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:01,880 issues I know that you've been investigating Diane on gender, 383 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:04,320 they're actually being introduced everywhere. 384 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:09,080 They have been interested to see how this comprehensive sex 385 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:14,440 education is being implemented in in South America recently. 386 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,800 And, and of course, it's occurring everywhere else, 387 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:25,800 climate, COVID in exactly the same timescale across countries 388 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:30,520 that some are rich, some are poor, some some are Democrat 389 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:35,760 crises, some are autocracies. But the same policies have been 390 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:41,120 implemented across very different countries all over the 391 00:26:41,120 --> 00:26:44,120 world in exactly the same time frame. 392 00:26:44,360 --> 00:26:47,720 Or that can only be done if you've got global governments. 393 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:50,800 And you can only have global governments if you've got this 394 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:55,760 system of people who can check everywhere. 395 00:26:56,040 --> 00:27:01,880 So, and, but, but what I sort of like was specifically looking 396 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:08,000 at, I recently did a comparison between the censorship in the 397 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,880 United States and the censorship in Europe. 398 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:16,320 But I think I sent you a copy of that and that, that was very 399 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,600 different because it looked on the faces of it as if there was 400 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:24,720 a real dichotomy. Because with the, the DSA and 401 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:30,400 the Online Safety Act in UK, the OSA is exactly the same. 402 00:27:31,120 --> 00:27:36,040 The, the, the actual act of censorship is, is given to the 403 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:42,720 very large online, online search engines and the very large 404 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:48,600 online platforms like Google, Facebook and so on. 405 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:55,000 So they have the, the, they're tasked with actually doing the 406 00:27:55,000 --> 00:28:00,880 censorship and the, both the OSA and the DSA are very vague. 407 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:05,080 I mean, what I would say is that they're engineered to be vague 408 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:10,440 so that it's very difficult for, for someone like Facebook to be 409 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:14,560 aware exactly where the, the line is. 410 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:18,760 So I can say this, but I can't say that because everything is, 411 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:23,400 is so vague in the legislation. And then to make it worse, um, 412 00:28:24,120 --> 00:28:28,840 uh, the, uh, the, in your, in the EU and, um, the UK 413 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:34,400 government, um, then they, uh, employ their own, um, police and 414 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:40,520 courts and you know, everything is employed by, by the persons 415 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,520 who've made the legislation. Mean in UK, for example, it's 416 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:48,680 Ofcom in, in, in Europe, it's, it's more diverse. 417 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:53,560 But all of the people who check the, the, whether the DSA is 418 00:28:53,560 --> 00:29:02,920 being applied properly are actually appointed by the EU 419 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,480 itself. There is no means to go to 420 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:10,560 actually have lawyers fighting your case and saying actually 421 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:12,760 this should be allowed or shouldn't be allowed. 422 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:18,240 It's totally policed and judged and sentences passed by people 423 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:22,400 appointed by the EU. And so therefore what the EU 424 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:25,600 says is censorship has to be censored. 425 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:31,800 And, and So what that then means is that companies like for 426 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:37,200 example, Facebook and Twitter and Google and all of the 427 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:44,720 others, they have to be very, very careful on how they monitor 428 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:48,840 the media because social media and the media. 429 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:53,880 Because if they make any errors, then then they themselves will 430 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:58,440 have to pay 6% of their global turnover, not their global 431 00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:02,240 profits, but 6% of their global turnover. 432 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:05,680 Which obviously is is a huge penalty. 433 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:12,600 And it makes people very be overprotective of their of their 434 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:17,240 own company and and and censor more than perhaps they need to 435 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:20,400 in order to make sure that they don't incur these penalties. 436 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:25,040 That's interesting because I, I follow a lot of different 437 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:29,880 Facebook accounts of mainstream media organisations and a lot of 438 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:34,080 them are, I guess that you would call them local news, but 439 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:36,120 they're not local news, right? Because they're all kind of 440 00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:40,080 owned by the same big companies or maybe even 1. 441 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:43,800 So things like your Plymouth Live and your Glasgow Live and 442 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:47,160 your Yorkshire Live and you know this, they're all owned by the 443 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:50,920 same company. And because I followed them on 444 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,400 my Facebook and I share them a lot on my Facebook, because a 445 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:57,960 lot of UK column viewers will see these and kind of laugh 446 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:02,680 along with me because a lot of them, they repeat something, but 447 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:04,600 they make it sound so absolutely ridiculous. 448 00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:10,040 I've done news segments on this before where it's like we've 449 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:12,920 been told now by the government, don't hang your washing outside 450 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:16,960 because that's dangerous. And then you see this so 451 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:18,840 ridiculous, right? Like why can we not hang our 452 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:21,240 washing outside? And then you read it and then it 453 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:23,840 says, well, you might get, you know, pollen in your clothing 454 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:25,360 that will cause you to have hay fever. 455 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:27,880 It is just, but they make it sound so ridiculous. 456 00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,520 Or, you know, keep your keep your curtains closed all day. 457 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:34,360 Or, you know, the one I saw a couple days ago was, was pour 458 00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:36,800 boiling water into your rubbish bins. 459 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:45,720 Like, so you know, why do these not count as, as, as untruths, 460 00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:47,200 right? Because these are not 461 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:49,680 necessarily things that we want to do or should be doing. 462 00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:52,000 But they get repeated all over the country. 463 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,640 And it's, they make it just scary enough for people to 464 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:58,080 believe that maybe they should comply with whatever it is, 465 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,760 however ridiculous it is that people will do it. 466 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:07,080 But those are all over Facebook. So is my, I don't know, my 467 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:10,120 feeling is that probably they can get away with it because 468 00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:12,120 they are owned by these big companies that are then 469 00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:15,960 controlled by the, you know, whoever the powers are above 470 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:17,760 them, that's stable. This is what we're going to tell 471 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:19,240 everyone. There's global boiling. 472 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:20,960 So stay in your house and close the curtains. 473 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,920 Don't go outside because, you know, God forbid you enjoy the 474 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,120 three days of summer that we have in the UK, right? 475 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,200 So it's, it's interesting to see how that happens. 476 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:34,000 And what do you think are the forces behind that? 477 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:36,640 Is that these sort of the globalist governments? 478 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:41,600 Is that the UN and the WEFWHO telling everyone to do this? 479 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:48,600 Well, the difficulty with Fact Check platforms or who are doing 480 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:51,360 all of this content moderation or censorship or whatever you 481 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:55,040 want to call it is that they only exist the censor. 482 00:32:55,360 --> 00:33:00,120 They don't produce a product. All that they do is is moderate 483 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,480 content. They might actually produce 484 00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:06,960 goods that help with content moderation that they can sell. 485 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:11,160 Like for example, they might manufacture content moderation 486 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,880 tools, but everything that they do is related to censorship. 487 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:19,600 And so therefore, and, and some of these jobs, you know, are 488 00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:24,440 quite high paid for fat, for example, pays more to it's, 489 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:28,920 it's, it's executives and the people who do fact checking. 490 00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:33,480 Then journalists get to work in main in the mainstream media. 491 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:37,920 So therefore they've got they've got good, well paid jobs, 492 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:40,200 they've got mortgages. And of course, then when you go 493 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:43,720 to countries like for example, Africa, where there's a 494 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:47,600 graduate, it's actually find it very difficult to find 495 00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:50,360 employment. And then they get a job with 496 00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:56,840 them with a Fact Check platform. And, and it's, it's a job of 497 00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,880 prestige. It's a job with, with a good 498 00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:03,600 wage where they sit in, you know, maybe a nice office or 499 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:05,680 sometimes they can do the work from home. 500 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:11,560 And so, so, so this is, is a very attractive job for them. 501 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:16,360 And so therefore they, they're all always likely to toe the 502 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:19,320 line. I, I, I have sometimes thought, 503 00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:23,320 do they actually really believe everything that they're fact 504 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:25,360 checking? Or do they believe, well, I've 505 00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:27,719 got to do this in order to pay the bills? 506 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:31,000 Because some of the things that they Fact Check are quite 507 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:36,040 extraordinary. But, but what I haven't noticed 508 00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:40,320 is when you have a major sort of a story, like for example, 509 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,639 COVID, then everybody cheques the COVID. 510 00:34:43,639 --> 00:34:46,880 And when you look at the Fact Check platforms, it's COVID, 511 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:50,600 COVID, COVID, COVID. Now then you get past sort of 512 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:57,960 like these hot button issues and and you get through a period of 513 00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:02,760 a relative calm, like you could say at the moment, because 514 00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:06,320 although there are major issues like Ukraine and Gaza, they're, 515 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:09,000 they're not appearing on Fact Check sites. 516 00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:13,040 Then they Fact Check quite trivial things like, for 517 00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:19,000 example, are you, are you if you cover your door with a wet 518 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:23,360 sheet, does it act like air conditioning, for example? 519 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,480 And other sorts of like trivial things that they're fact 520 00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:30,840 checked, like on one Fact Check platform it said something like 521 00:35:31,720 --> 00:35:36,080 if, if you will, you become I'll if you eat milk and and fish 522 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:38,880 together. And then other things that I 523 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:45,000 think are quite trivial, like does did this footballer loses 524 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:50,200 sponsorship, They're all things that aren't of don't aren't of 525 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:54,040 great significance and which people could themselves look up 526 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:58,080 and that they don't need the Fact Check platforms to do it. 527 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:01,560 But when you look through the content of Fact Check platforms, 528 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,120 a lot of them are these are these trivia. 529 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:08,320 Some of them are local issues which I can't make any comments 530 00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:14,240 on because the name of somebody in Africa or India or South 531 00:36:14,240 --> 00:36:16,040 America doesn't mean anything to me. 532 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:21,040 So I, I can't Fact Check on the on the local issues, but there 533 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,360 are issues that I can Fact Check on. 534 00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:26,480 And I find that that, that these trivia. 535 00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:30,200 And it's as if the Fact Check platforms have to keep on fact 536 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:33,520 checking during, you know, the lean times when there isn't a 537 00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:37,680 hot button issue to Fact Check. So they go into these trivia 538 00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:42,600 modes and of course you've seen I can say this is happening in 539 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:47,640 the USA. The USA is Donald Trump did an 540 00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:53,680 executive order to say that the terms misinformation, 541 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:57,880 disinformation, malinformation shouldn't be used and that 542 00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:04,960 people wouldn't be funded if they if, if they Fact Check so 543 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,720 or, or censor. So I actually had a look at some 544 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:13,360 Fact Check platforms in America and I found now they've stopped 545 00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:17,000 using terms like Mal information and disinformation and they, 546 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:22,280 they're using different terms to evaluate the, their, their, 547 00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:28,400 their fact cheques. So, so that and some of them 548 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:32,120 quite imaginative, but the different terms and the term 549 00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:37,960 disinformation, malinformation and and and miss dismissing Mal 550 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:42,320 information very rarely used now use never used in terms of the 551 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:45,800 valuation and a lot of the fact cheques that they're doing a 552 00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:51,840 very trivial in my account, I actually wrote that they didn't 553 00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:55,160 didn't do any fact cheques on for example, the situation in 554 00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:57,760 Gaza. But what they did Fact Check was 555 00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:03,320 whether one particular brand of ice creams had a pro Palestinian 556 00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:06,120 message on the carton and said it didn't. 557 00:38:06,720 --> 00:38:10,080 But in effect, whether they'd said it did or whether they said 558 00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:13,240 it didn't is irrelevant. It's, it's a trivial issue to 559 00:38:13,240 --> 00:38:15,760 Fact Check. It's it, it, it's something that 560 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:18,960 that wasn't, that wasn't important to Fact Check. 561 00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:23,160 You know, people would either get that on their on their ice 562 00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:27,600 cream carton or they wouldn't. And and if they saw it on a 563 00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:30,000 carton and they didn't want to buy it, then they needn't buy 564 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:33,280 it. But it's but it's so irrelevant 565 00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:37,240 and so trivial. And also I noticed that although 566 00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:42,080 I would say that the fact cheques were marginally not in 567 00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:48,920 favour of Trump, but in general the fact cheques there might 568 00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:53,840 have been some of them were actually supporting Trump, some 569 00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:56,840 of them were critical, critical of Trump. 570 00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:59,960 And on balance, I would say that they were slightly critical of 571 00:38:59,960 --> 00:39:08,040 Trump, but these censorship of, of right wing, if there is such 572 00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:13,160 a thing as right wing of, of populist policies in the United 573 00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:18,520 States, which I have read sort of like a book. 574 00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:22,000 And I wanted to research episodes that seem to indicate 575 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:26,160 that the populist policies, Trump and his followers were 576 00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:30,960 being censored far more than Biden and his and his his 577 00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:34,400 policies before that. I don't think you can say that's 578 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:37,040 happening. But the significant thing is the 579 00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:39,360 Fact Check platforms are still there. 580 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:43,560 They're not going away. So that means that they when 581 00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:48,080 when they're when Trump leaves office, they can then move into 582 00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:51,760 their original mode. They they can, they can move 583 00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:55,680 back and they can continue fact checking as they were. 584 00:39:56,560 --> 00:40:01,560 And so, so of course, the win would be the Fact Check 585 00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:05,800 platforms worldwide were dismantled and had. 586 00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:11,120 Zuckerberg being able to dismantle his censorship 587 00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:14,040 programme, which he actually called the censorship programme. 588 00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:19,120 He he said that checking had overstepped the mark and was 589 00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:23,320 censorship I think in January 2025. 590 00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:26,600 Since then he hasn't made a statement, but he said that he 591 00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:29,640 was going to dismantle the third party fact checking programme. 592 00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:33,840 Now I think that the matter via its third party fact checking 593 00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:39,640 programme was actually funding at least 50% of the money that 594 00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:42,960 was going into these global fact checking platforms. 595 00:40:43,240 --> 00:40:47,600 So had that collapsed, I think that a lot of the Fact Check 596 00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:50,640 industry would have also had to collapse. 597 00:40:50,720 --> 00:40:55,120 But they're still there. And, and of course there has 598 00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:59,760 been research into this and what they're saying is that really 599 00:41:00,240 --> 00:41:04,040 platforms like Twitter and Facebook, in the end, they will 600 00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:11,240 have to comply with with rules in countries like UK and, and, 601 00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:14,520 and Europe. And of course, there was a 602 00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:21,760 situation in in Brazil where X was told it had to take 603 00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:25,760 platforms down that that supported the ex president 604 00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:29,960 Bolsonaro. He tried to say that he wouldn't 605 00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:33,560 do that. And in consequence, X was banned 606 00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:39,000 from Brazil. And ultimately Musk had to go 607 00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:44,480 back and do exactly as he was told by by the authorities in 608 00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:46,600 Brazil, legal authorities as it happened. 609 00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:49,920 And also we paid the 5.2 million fine. 610 00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:52,040 I think it's a large fly in anyway. 611 00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:54,360 Well, it would be large for me. I don't suppose it's large for 612 00:41:54,360 --> 00:42:01,200 him, but he had to pay a fine and in order to sort of get back 613 00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:08,520 into into Brazil and continue hosting his ex platform. 614 00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:14,520 So I think that exactly the same will happen in with Musk in in 615 00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:21,120 Europe is currently challenging some of the things on the the 616 00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:23,560 DSA. He's been investigated by the 617 00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:26,200 DSA. I suspect he'll get a fine and 618 00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:30,400 he'll have to start doing exactly the same as Facebook is 619 00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:34,360 doing and complying with the DSA requirements. 620 00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:37,240 Yeah, yeah. We've covered some different 621 00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:40,960 fact checking organisations on UK column quite extensively, 622 00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:44,960 especially Full Fact and of course Mariana Spring, who's one 623 00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:46,520 of our favourites to cover from the. 624 00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:52,840 And if you go back into Mariana Springs history and CV, she 625 00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:55,720 didn't, you could do some fact checking on her CV. 626 00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:59,040 I'll just say that to make sure that what she says on her CV is 627 00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:00,600 actually what happened in her past. 628 00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:05,640 But it is interesting to think that, you know, these fact 629 00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:08,200 checking organisations around the world, I believe are in 630 00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:11,360 somewhat in lockstep because they all have, as you've said, 631 00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:14,320 similar agendas. A few weeks ago, and I covered 632 00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:18,000 this briefly on the news a few weeks ago, I went to an event at 633 00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:21,280 the University of York, which was from their Festival of Ideas 634 00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:25,760 conference and there was a panel about misinformation or 635 00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:28,080 disinformation or whatever you want to call it. 636 00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:30,320 I think they were mostly using word disinformation. 637 00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:35,360 And the panel was a Guardian journalist, some academics from 638 00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:39,920 politics from the UK, and Jessica Cecil herself, who is 639 00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:42,080 the head of the trusted news initiatives on the panel. 640 00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:47,040 And at the end of it, I asked them the question and they all 641 00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:49,920 really staggered and stammered and didn't really know what to 642 00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:54,200 say because I said, you have used the word far right. 643 00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:58,120 I don't know how many times in this whole discussion and and 644 00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:02,120 criticise Trump and populism. And what about the far left is 645 00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:04,120 is there a far left? Why have you not talked about 646 00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:06,160 them? And, you know, if you if the 647 00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:09,640 point of the panel, which which is it was advertised to be 648 00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:14,840 something where we would talk about how to end kind of the 649 00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:18,480 bifurcation of people of having, you know, one side or the other 650 00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:19,920 side. And how can we have civil 651 00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:22,160 discourse if we're all just going to be on one side or the 652 00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:24,800 other side. And they got really defensive in 653 00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:28,040 their replies to me because they all just said, oh, well, you 654 00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:31,080 know, yeah, we talked about far right, but of course there's a 655 00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:33,800 left. But none of them really owned 656 00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:37,040 the fact that they were all just kind of attacking, as you've 657 00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:40,080 said, that the populist in the Trump side and just ignoring the 658 00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:42,280 other side. And I'm not saying that I 659 00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:44,760 prescribe to one side or the other because I actually don't. 660 00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:47,800 I'm completely independent when it comes to any sort of 661 00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:51,880 political parties, as I think that is generally the case for 662 00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:54,520 most of us at UK column, because we think that they're all just a 663 00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:57,600 UNI party here in the UK, as Brian Garish calls at the UNI 664 00:44:57,600 --> 00:45:00,680 party where they're all just doing all the same page, right? 665 00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:02,640 So there's really no point in choosing because they're all 666 00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:05,440 going to mess up, mess up our lives regardless. 667 00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:11,560 But that's what I've seen with this the, the, the looking at 668 00:45:11,560 --> 00:45:15,400 the different fact checking organisations is that they have 669 00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:18,240 their facts that they like that they're happy with, which push 670 00:45:18,240 --> 00:45:19,880 the narratives that they want to push. 671 00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:23,320 And then that's what that's what we get is as a response. 672 00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:25,560 Well, this is, this is right and this is wrong. 673 00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:29,840 And that's not always the case when you actually look at the 674 00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:33,520 content of of their results. So when you were looking at 675 00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:38,840 these different perspectives in Europe and the US and, and other 676 00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:41,960 places that you've been looking at, did you find this this most 677 00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:43,160 recent work that you've published? 678 00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:45,800 Did you, can you talk a little bit about the differences that 679 00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:48,480 you noticed or the similarities amongst the different countries? 680 00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:53,320 I think that there was a big difference in as much as the DSA 681 00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:56,840 said that if you didn't censor, you were going to be fine. 682 00:45:57,200 --> 00:46:00,840 And then this new executive order signed by Trump said that 683 00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:02,840 if you do censor, you're going to be fined. 684 00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:07,920 And of course, that puts a particular burden onto groups 685 00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:12,920 that were that that had to do the censorship activities in 686 00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:16,560 Europe because they were going to be running to sort of like 687 00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:21,080 completely different systems. And obviously people like 688 00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:28,960 Americans could post something in America which could which, 689 00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:35,440 which would be illegal in in Europe, even though they, they 690 00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:37,640 posted that post on American soil. 691 00:46:38,240 --> 00:46:42,040 It's quite interesting because there's a researcher called Mike 692 00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:49,120 Benz who he is an advocacy of free speech and is against 693 00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:50,680 censorship. He's done quite a lot of 694 00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:53,360 research. He's got a abject platform 695 00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:58,960 called Foundation for Freedom Online and has done quite a lot 696 00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:04,080 of research. And he said that that in effect, 697 00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:08,520 the the US government, because of the 1st Amendment, because it 698 00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:13,720 couldn't actively say that it was censoring Americans, it 699 00:47:13,720 --> 00:47:18,240 actually put pressure on other countries, like for example, the 700 00:47:18,240 --> 00:47:23,960 DSA and in Europe and the USA and UK and also other countries 701 00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:29,600 in the world to pass legislation that would operate in such a way 702 00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:31,960 that Americans would be censored. 703 00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:38,360 And also on the Twitter Files, the which was this investigation 704 00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:46,720 into the, the communications between the Biden government and 705 00:47:46,720 --> 00:47:50,080 social media platforms. But there was some 706 00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:56,000 correspondence there between between America and and Europe 707 00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:59,440 released in the Twitter Files that actually demonstrated that 708 00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:07,240 pressure had been put on Europe. And in terms of, of, of laying 709 00:48:07,240 --> 00:48:11,240 out the Digital Services Act in such a way that it would 710 00:48:11,240 --> 00:48:16,440 interfere with American rights. Because as you know, the the 1st 711 00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:21,520 Amendment in America stops the US government from interfering 712 00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:24,400 with free speech, but it doesn't, for example, stop 713 00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:28,080 American companies interfering with free speech and it doesn't 714 00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:31,880 stop foreign governments from interfering with Americans free 715 00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:35,480 speech. So it's the the onus is only on 716 00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:39,840 on the American government. So therefore, there was pressure 717 00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:45,400 put on and on to the governments, for example, to 718 00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:48,840 write their legislation in a ways that it was likely to 719 00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:52,280 curtail the free expression of Americans. 720 00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:58,160 I don't know whether you know, but I couldn't, I looked a long 721 00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:01,160 time, I couldn't find anything in Europe, but of course it 722 00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:03,200 might have been written in different languages. 723 00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:09,440 But but I did find that 2 American platforms have have 724 00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:13,240 withdrawn from UK because of the OSA, because they just think 725 00:49:13,240 --> 00:49:18,800 that the legislation is too onerous to to to be certain that 726 00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:21,520 they're not overstepping the mark bit. 727 00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:25,600 Shoot, and, and Gab, I think they were, and also there's one 728 00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:30,000 American who's been told that he's going to be prosecuted 729 00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:35,880 under the OSA in UK for, for what he's posted on on the 730 00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:38,800 Internet. So, so, so therefore this 731 00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:43,760 legislation is working to sort of like censor American free 732 00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:48,320 speech. So far nothing has been done 733 00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:53,000 about it, although the American administration has said that it 734 00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:57,080 will follow up on this, but nothing has been done so far. 735 00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:04,120 But so therefore it's it seems as if the the Digital Service 736 00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:08,400 Act is, if you like, a back door to censor, censoring American 737 00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:11,800 opinions when they're online. No, that's, that's really 738 00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:14,880 interesting because you know, the, I went to a conference 739 00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:20,720 years ago of I think this was 2008 around governance of the 740 00:50:20,720 --> 00:50:22,760 Internet. And that was one of the 741 00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:27,200 questions that we were kind of trying to explore was who owns 742 00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:29,440 the Internet really? Nobody, right. 743 00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:32,280 So the idea is that, for example, if this one of the 744 00:50:32,280 --> 00:50:35,520 things that we sort of defaulted to over the years is that, for 745 00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:39,600 example, if servers for the website that you're using, so 746 00:50:39,600 --> 00:50:42,080 say it's Facebook and it's Zuckerberg and the servers are 747 00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:46,440 based in California. Then if something happens, if, 748 00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:49,360 whether it's censored or whether it's, you know, somebody is 749 00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:52,600 inciting violence or whatever it is they want to try to get 750 00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:56,080 people in trouble for, then that is based on that jurisdiction of 751 00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:58,920 that country in America, regardless of whether or not the 752 00:50:58,920 --> 00:51:01,760 person was in the UK or America or somewhere else. 753 00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:05,280 But it seems like the legislation, as you're saying 754 00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:08,920 here has, has been changing to make things a little bit more 755 00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:11,640 complicated. I know we've talked well, 756 00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:14,320 especially Mike Robinson has talked extensively and covered 757 00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:18,680 the Online Safety Act in the UK in recent times. 758 00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:21,760 What can you tell us about that? Do you know anything about that 759 00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:23,520 from your perspective in your research? 760 00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:28,320 Well, the Online Safety Act, it was, they were talking about 761 00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:31,720 passing this act for some time, but in the end they didn't get 762 00:51:31,720 --> 00:51:35,760 round to passing it until just after the DSA was passed in 763 00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:38,160 Europe. And some people think that that 764 00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:43,240 was purposeful, that what they were trying to do was to make 765 00:51:43,240 --> 00:51:47,440 sure that the, that the conditions imposed on by the 766 00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:50,200 Online Safety Act and the Digital Services Act were 767 00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:52,920 broadly similar. And, and they are broadly 768 00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:54,840 similar. It's, they're almost like carbon 769 00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:57,920 copies. So, so, so the people who were 770 00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:01,320 saying that may well have been right, although I've not got 771 00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:04,520 evidence of that, but it looks as if that's, that's a strong 772 00:52:04,520 --> 00:52:08,880 possibility. And I think that most people are 773 00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:15,160 like a completely unaware of the of, of the, the extent that the 774 00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:21,240 Online Safety Act can actually affect ordinary people. 775 00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:25,520 And of course they are arresting a number of people. 776 00:52:25,520 --> 00:52:31,200 I think it's 30 a day, according to the Free Speech Union or 777 00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:36,680 detaining, if not arresting for, for their online content in Uki 778 00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:40,480 mean it's it's, it's phenomenal. And there's somebody that said 779 00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:45,040 that did a tweet, which she sent out a tweet. 780 00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:47,480 She realised it was a horrible tweet. 781 00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:50,360 So within 15 minutes she deleted it. 782 00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:55,120 But but now she's in, she's a young mother with young children 783 00:52:55,440 --> 00:53:00,640 and she's imprisoned for 31 months for this tweet, which she 784 00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:03,360 agrees. She's she, she, she doesn't 785 00:53:03,680 --> 00:53:06,360 disagree that it was an offensive tweet. 786 00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:10,880 She, she absolutely says that it was offensive. 787 00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:17,920 But but the but as this she herself realised this and and 788 00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:22,280 erase this tweet so quickly. It just seems incredible that 789 00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:25,760 she's got a 31 month sentence, which of course is not only a 790 00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:30,400 sentence for her, but it's also a sentence for her children who 791 00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:34,080 are deprived of them mother for that time, which of course is a 792 00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:36,400 very difficult thing for children. 793 00:53:37,160 --> 00:53:41,760 So so I think that people in UK aren't aware of the extent of 794 00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:43,480 it. Also. 795 00:53:43,480 --> 00:53:50,240 The other thing is that it, it makes a lot of both, I think the 796 00:53:50,240 --> 00:53:54,680 DSA and the on the Online Safety Act, they, they make a lot of 797 00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:59,440 issue about this media literacy, which on the face of it, media 798 00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:07,080 literacy sounds a good thing because people need to be stay 799 00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:10,480 safe online, especially children, but even adults are 800 00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:12,960 subject to fraud and things like this online. 801 00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:16,720 So on, on the face of it, it seems like a sensible thing. 802 00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:20,200 And this Ofcom is in charge of that. 803 00:54:20,240 --> 00:54:24,360 And just to give you an extent of the size of it, I could only 804 00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:28,080 find about half a dozen Fact Check platforms in UK. 805 00:54:28,160 --> 00:54:35,320 OK, but I found something like 170 media literacy groups in UK. 806 00:54:35,320 --> 00:54:37,480 It's much, much bigger than fact checking. 807 00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:42,320 And what it it's just the form of, of, of brainwashing. 808 00:54:42,560 --> 00:54:46,400 I mean, I've done quite a lot of media literacy courses myself 809 00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:50,920 just to try them out and see what what happens. 810 00:54:51,040 --> 00:54:54,640 I've done media literacy courses for children, for adults, for 811 00:54:54,640 --> 00:55:00,440 seniors and so forth, some for journalists as well and online. 812 00:55:00,720 --> 00:55:05,440 And so, so I should be completely brainwashed now, but 813 00:55:05,720 --> 00:55:09,840 but the children's ones, they're very sort of like captivating in 814 00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:13,160 cartoons. And for example, the, the person 815 00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:20,080 in who does the game, he thinks that he's, he's a sort of like 816 00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:24,480 an evil person who wants to spread this information. 817 00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:28,200 He's always an evil person. So he does these various things 818 00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:33,600 for money and for fame and glory and whatever in order to try to 819 00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:37,920 sort of like win people over to his way of thinking. 820 00:55:38,240 --> 00:55:43,280 And then of course, children who have done these media literacy 821 00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:49,480 courses then start thinking that anybody who's says anything 822 00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:52,400 online that's different to what the government says or what the 823 00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:56,880 teacher says or whatever are doing it because they're going 824 00:55:56,880 --> 00:56:00,000 to get famous or because they're going to people are going to 825 00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:02,840 like them or because they're going to get lots of money. 826 00:56:03,080 --> 00:56:05,760 So they don't. So, so then for example, you get 827 00:56:08,040 --> 00:56:11,680 many doctors, for example, supported the COVID narrative, 828 00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:15,200 but also many doctors didn't support the COVID narrative. 829 00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:18,440 But then if anybody hears the doctor that didn't support the 830 00:56:18,440 --> 00:56:22,040 COVID narrative, then they think that maybe he's he's a quack or 831 00:56:22,040 --> 00:56:28,040 not a real doctor or he's or he's trying to, to get famous. 832 00:56:28,200 --> 00:56:31,480 They don't think of him as as a person who's trying to get 833 00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:34,640 across a message. But when you look at the Fact 834 00:56:34,640 --> 00:56:39,760 Check platforms for adults, they always refer you to sources such 835 00:56:39,760 --> 00:56:44,240 as The Who, the governments and mainstream media. 836 00:56:45,160 --> 00:56:50,320 And, and then they, they sort of like they tell you to do this, 837 00:56:52,040 --> 00:56:55,000 these searches. So if you find the name of 838 00:56:55,000 --> 00:56:59,720 somebody like for example, yourself, I might, you might say 839 00:56:59,720 --> 00:57:01,600 something. And I think, oh, that sounds 840 00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:06,280 pretty sensible, But if I was and looked up your name, I 841 00:57:06,280 --> 00:57:09,400 haven't done it, but so I'm just assuming. 842 00:57:09,560 --> 00:57:13,320 So if I looked up your name, what it would what would happen 843 00:57:13,320 --> 00:57:16,520 is that various stories would come up first telling me that 844 00:57:16,520 --> 00:57:21,640 you're a conspiracy theorist and that you've been that you've you 845 00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:25,480 were forced to leave your job as in the university and you know, 846 00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:29,440 things that actually smear you. So that then I would look at a, 847 00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:33,760 the article that you've read or the, the, the video that you've 848 00:57:33,760 --> 00:57:37,600 made for the speech that I've heard in, in the context of the 849 00:57:37,600 --> 00:57:40,160 fact that you weren't a very good person. 850 00:57:40,160 --> 00:57:44,000 And that would make me want to think maybe I won't believe this 851 00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:50,800 thing that Diane says after all. So it's, so it's it, it's, it's 852 00:57:51,040 --> 00:57:57,120 the way that they teach you to do searches is, is, is is in 853 00:57:57,120 --> 00:58:00,800 itself likely to influence your position. 854 00:58:01,480 --> 00:58:05,600 So say, for example, they're talking this, they're talking 855 00:58:05,600 --> 00:58:10,000 about alternative news platforms at one point on several courses 856 00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:12,520 that have done. And then they say, oh, they look 857 00:58:12,520 --> 00:58:15,080 like as if they're real platforms. 858 00:58:15,080 --> 00:58:18,320 They look as if they're, you know, the real thing and that 859 00:58:18,840 --> 00:58:23,280 and that that they're really going to offer you a good source 860 00:58:23,280 --> 00:58:26,840 of news. But, but, but this is a way of 861 00:58:27,200 --> 00:58:31,080 of sort of fooling you into, into sort of like listening to 862 00:58:31,080 --> 00:58:34,320 what they've got to say. So they sort of so, so they 863 00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:37,400 discredit sort of alternative media sites. 864 00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:44,520 So it, it, it really is a very problematic sort of issue, 865 00:58:44,880 --> 00:58:48,960 Diane, getting these, getting your story out. 866 00:58:49,360 --> 00:58:52,880 And of course, I mean, the, the ironic thing of all is that 867 00:58:52,920 --> 00:58:57,080 Facebook have told me that that anything that I post won't be 868 00:58:57,080 --> 00:59:00,400 disseminated. So because I'm writing about 869 00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:03,440 censorship, Facebook have completely censored me. 870 00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:07,080 So there you go. And so I, I, I don't post any of 871 00:59:07,080 --> 00:59:12,960 UK column things anymore, except that sometimes I'm say, if it's 872 00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:16,800 something that you've done about the Gaza issue, I might post it 873 00:59:16,800 --> 00:59:21,760 onto a, a site like, for example, a Palestine solidarity 874 00:59:21,760 --> 00:59:24,440 group, a local Palestine solidarity group. 875 00:59:25,480 --> 00:59:30,560 But apart from that, I, I just don't, there's no point in me 876 00:59:30,560 --> 00:59:35,560 sharing anything because you know, it, Facebook have told me 877 00:59:35,560 --> 00:59:39,360 that my posts go nowhere now. So so it's mainly very 878 00:59:39,360 --> 00:59:44,040 disinterested in social media. Yeah, what what's happened to me 879 00:59:44,040 --> 00:59:49,360 on my Facebook and X platforms is the more UK column viewers 880 00:59:49,360 --> 00:59:53,120 that have followed me or sent me friend requests is. 881 00:59:53,120 --> 00:59:58,280 It actually has helped me a bit because even if they they wanted 882 00:59:58,280 --> 01:00:02,200 to censor the content, I am getting probably not as many 883 01:00:02,680 --> 01:00:05,600 likes and comments as I would if I were posting mainstream 884 01:00:05,600 --> 01:00:09,600 content, but because. People know my name now and they 885 01:00:09,600 --> 01:00:12,520 know they know that I'm on the platform here at UK Column. 886 01:00:12,960 --> 01:00:17,040 So when I share things, what happens is on X, all of my 887 01:00:17,040 --> 01:00:20,680 followers are at least I would say, affiliated with our way of 888 01:00:20,680 --> 01:00:24,400 seeing things on Facebook. I have a combination of people 889 01:00:24,400 --> 01:00:27,680 from my former life as an academic and UK Column viewers. 890 01:00:28,160 --> 01:00:31,600 So my Facebook friends get into some really good debates 891 01:00:31,600 --> 01:00:33,600 sometimes that I don't even participate in. 892 01:00:33,600 --> 01:00:36,800 I just let them do it, right? Because all of the academics 893 01:00:37,080 --> 01:00:39,360 bought into the COVID narrative. I didn't. 894 01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:41,720 I'm one of the rare few who didn't. 895 01:00:42,280 --> 01:00:45,880 But then all of the UK column viewers know what happened. 896 01:00:46,280 --> 01:00:48,760 And then there's this back and forth about, what do you mean? 897 01:00:49,080 --> 01:00:52,160 The reason that there's so many excess deaths is because of all 898 01:00:52,160 --> 01:00:56,320 the unvaccinated people that died of COVID without actually 899 01:00:56,320 --> 01:00:57,520 knowing what they're talking about. 900 01:00:57,520 --> 01:01:00,360 And then you have the other side coming in and yelling at them. 901 01:01:00,360 --> 01:01:03,760 And so it's a very, very interesting thing to watch 902 01:01:03,760 --> 01:01:08,480 happen between the very large range of different types of 903 01:01:08,480 --> 01:01:10,560 people that I now have following me on Facebook. 904 01:01:10,560 --> 01:01:13,400 And I'm really surprised that the academics have not 905 01:01:13,400 --> 01:01:16,040 unfollowed me or unfriended me at this point because they just 906 01:01:16,040 --> 01:01:19,000 get angry at what I post now, which is really kind of funny. 907 01:01:19,960 --> 01:01:22,600 I know we're just about out of time here, unfortunately. 908 01:01:22,600 --> 01:01:23,920 This has been a great discussion. 909 01:01:24,560 --> 01:01:26,680 Is there anything else that you would like to add that you 910 01:01:26,680 --> 01:01:28,120 haven't had a chance to say already? 911 01:01:28,720 --> 01:01:31,920 The only thing that I would like to add is that I've been very 912 01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:37,640 disappointed recently in, in the way that Trump and Vance have 913 01:01:37,640 --> 01:01:44,520 implemented their executive order in the USA, because what 914 01:01:44,520 --> 01:01:49,480 they're doing is increasing surveillance massively, for 915 01:01:49,480 --> 01:01:53,560 example, at airports. And, and also they're building 916 01:01:53,560 --> 01:01:59,000 these new tech tech labs. They're actually having feared 917 01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:03,120 with, with free speech of journalists who say things that 918 01:02:03,120 --> 01:02:05,800 they don't want to say. And of course they've done a lot 919 01:02:05,800 --> 01:02:09,800 of censorship of the, of the Israel Palestine conflict. 920 01:02:10,280 --> 01:02:15,440 So, so I, I, I just think that you might hear a speech that you 921 01:02:15,440 --> 01:02:20,760 really like, like the JD Vance speech, but you really need, you 922 01:02:20,760 --> 01:02:22,720 still have to stay on high alert. 923 01:02:22,760 --> 01:02:26,600 Even if somebody's saying what you think you want to hear, you 924 01:02:26,600 --> 01:02:31,240 have to stay on high alert because on both sides there are 925 01:02:31,240 --> 01:02:34,360 sort of people who, who mislead you. 926 01:02:34,760 --> 01:02:38,120 And I think that the most important thing of all, Diane, 927 01:02:38,120 --> 01:02:43,760 is for people to, who have diverse viewpoints to be able to 928 01:02:43,760 --> 01:02:50,040 sit down respectfully and talk to each other in without, 929 01:02:50,640 --> 01:02:55,160 without using derogatory terms like conspiracy theorists or 930 01:02:55,360 --> 01:02:59,720 sheeple or whatever, without using any derogatory terms and 931 01:02:59,720 --> 01:03:03,320 to listen respectfully to what the other side says. 932 01:03:03,640 --> 01:03:07,880 Because that's if you like the people who want to rule the 933 01:03:07,880 --> 01:03:12,000 world, the most important thing for them is to keep us divided. 934 01:03:12,360 --> 01:03:17,040 But, but we need to, to be able to communicate. 935 01:03:17,280 --> 01:03:21,560 And unfortunately, legislation is, is, is trying to hinder us 936 01:03:21,560 --> 01:03:25,240 from doing that. But, but nonetheless, we must 937 01:03:26,240 --> 01:03:29,680 find ways of communicating with people who've got the opposite 938 01:03:29,680 --> 01:03:34,760 viewpoint and and to listen to them, maybe modify our own views 939 01:03:35,040 --> 01:03:39,640 and and then maybe they will also modify their views because 940 01:03:39,640 --> 01:03:44,360 it's only by us working together that we're going to overcome 941 01:03:44,360 --> 01:03:50,120 this, this global governments which is being fast installed 942 01:03:50,120 --> 01:03:53,000 all over the world. Couldn't agree more with you and 943 01:03:53,000 --> 01:03:55,080 all of that. What I will say about Trump and 944 01:03:55,080 --> 01:03:57,800 Vance, and I said this from the beginning, when they started 945 01:03:57,800 --> 01:04:01,360 issuing these executive orders, that it was all a distraction 946 01:04:01,440 --> 01:04:03,680 anyway. That they, they put out 947 01:04:03,680 --> 01:04:05,720 executive orders that they knew that their voters would like to 948 01:04:05,720 --> 01:04:08,520 hear about with the, you know, ending the DEI and ending the 949 01:04:08,520 --> 01:04:11,080 gender stuff. And, but in the background, 950 01:04:11,080 --> 01:04:13,760 what's happened now, you know, all of the, the deals that's 951 01:04:13,760 --> 01:04:16,040 going on with the Israeli government and everything else 952 01:04:16,040 --> 01:04:18,840 that we've been covering in recent weeks, that those were 953 01:04:18,840 --> 01:04:21,400 the things that I believe that they were distracting us from. 954 01:04:21,400 --> 01:04:24,720 But it's, it's all a lot of myths cause confusion, 955 01:04:24,720 --> 01:04:29,080 distraction, breakdown of society, all of these things 956 01:04:29,080 --> 01:04:31,200 that we talked about. But you're absolutely right that 957 01:04:31,240 --> 01:04:34,800 if we, we have to have conversations and they're making 958 01:04:34,800 --> 01:04:38,520 it, trying to make it as impossible as they can to make 959 01:04:38,520 --> 01:04:40,560 sure that we don't talk to each other. 960 01:04:40,640 --> 01:04:43,560 And then it creates division. Then, you know, some people are, 961 01:04:43,680 --> 01:04:46,800 are worrying about is there going to be civil war in the US, 962 01:04:46,800 --> 01:04:50,040 civil war in the UK Because, you know, our governments are 963 01:04:50,040 --> 01:04:52,200 attacking us, we're attacking the other side. 964 01:04:52,200 --> 01:04:54,680 We're, we're picking fights and calling names. 965 01:04:55,240 --> 01:04:57,600 But you're right, that's absolutely what they want. 966 01:04:57,600 --> 01:05:00,160 And that's why I like to come here and have open 967 01:05:00,160 --> 01:05:03,640 conversations, things that are always well sourced as you do as 968 01:05:03,640 --> 01:05:06,320 well that we know the importance of sourcing and, and that you 969 01:05:06,320 --> 01:05:09,280 can actually track back and see that no, we're, we're not making 970 01:05:09,280 --> 01:05:10,680 stuff up. This is all here. 971 01:05:10,680 --> 01:05:13,600 This is all accurate and that's very important to us. 972 01:05:13,600 --> 01:05:17,960 That UK column, and for me in particular as the, I'll call 973 01:05:17,960 --> 01:05:20,480 myself the Mariana Spring, if you can call them, I hope that 974 01:05:20,480 --> 01:05:24,440 doesn't spread because I like to be the one that, you know, 975 01:05:24,440 --> 01:05:27,160 makes, makes sure as the librarian that works for us, 976 01:05:27,160 --> 01:05:30,240 that we're all sourcing things, especially in the written 977 01:05:30,240 --> 01:05:33,120 content that I'm not responsible for as our commissioning editor. 978 01:05:34,000 --> 01:05:38,160 But thank you again today for such a great conversation. 979 01:05:38,160 --> 01:05:42,160 I hope that this will inspire some people to potentially reach 980 01:05:42,160 --> 01:05:45,760 out and at least be respectful of people who don't see things 981 01:05:46,280 --> 01:05:49,680 the same way. I think that by preventing free 982 01:05:49,680 --> 01:05:52,560 speech from happening, especially in some cases, the 983 01:05:52,560 --> 01:05:54,920 speech that the governments don't like, I think 984 01:05:54,920 --> 01:05:58,040 unfortunately are the ones who tend to be the targets. 985 01:05:58,040 --> 01:06:01,000 But we have to be above that. And it has to start with us 986 01:06:01,000 --> 01:06:04,320 individually and with the groups that we associate with and who 987 01:06:04,320 --> 01:06:06,840 we talk to and how we choose to talk to them. 988 01:06:06,840 --> 01:06:10,000 So I really want to support you on that point, and I hope that 989 01:06:10,320 --> 01:06:13,480 this will inspire our viewers to do the same, even if some days 990 01:06:13,480 --> 01:06:15,440 it might not feel like that's what you want to do. 991 01:06:16,320 --> 01:06:18,040 But thank you again for your time today. 992 01:06:18,040 --> 01:06:21,040 Again, this is Diane Rasmussen Mckelly with UK column News. 993 01:06:21,040 --> 01:06:23,800 I've just had a wonderful conversation here with Doctor 994 01:06:23,800 --> 01:06:26,520 Judith Brown. And thank you again, Judith, for 995 01:06:26,520 --> 01:06:28,040 your time. I really appreciate it. 996 01:06:28,600 --> 01:06:29,720 Thank you, Diane. Thank you. 997 01:06:29,880 --> 01:06:31,800 Thank you for your time. I've really enjoyed the 998 01:06:31,800 --> 01:06:32,360 interview.