1 00:00:08,070 --> 00:00:10,990 Hello and welcome to the UK column today I'm delighted to be 2 00:00:10,990 --> 00:00:15,390 joined by ESA Bloomy ESA is professor of Asian and Middle 3 00:00:15,390 --> 00:00:18,310 East Studies at Stockholm University Institute of Turkish 4 00:00:18,310 --> 00:00:21,830 Studies in in Sweden and welcome to the programme ESA. 5 00:00:23,190 --> 00:00:27,670 I, I want to talk today about Sudan, the situation Sudan, 6 00:00:27,670 --> 00:00:33,240 which is about as grim as it gets, I think pretty unpleasant 7 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:37,040 war conflict going on there since April 2023. 8 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:40,760 Well, as we'll discuss, no doubt it's something that's actually 9 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:42,920 been going on for a lot longer than that. 10 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:47,200 But the latest iteration, at least for a couple of years now, 11 00:00:48,480 --> 00:00:52,440 aside from, you know, the occasional UK government press 12 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:55,640 release, which never gets any coverage in the mainstream 13 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:59,800 press, most people in the UK at least know almost nothing about 14 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:04,000 this conflict that's going on without any major media coverage 15 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:07,760 in this country at all. So although we have talked about 16 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:12,600 it several times in UK column news, I can't say that we are 17 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:15,960 particularly familiar with the with the detail of it. 18 00:01:15,960 --> 00:01:22,520 So I suppose my first question is, is this a civil war? 19 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:26,440 It's being described as a civil war, or is it another conflict 20 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:29,520 which is being driven by external forces? 21 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:35,600 Yes, it's the latter. Much of Africa and neighbouring 22 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:44,040 countries like Yemen especially, are the unfortunate target of 23 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:49,160 rival, sometimes corporate therefore private. 24 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:55,880 But they they they form useful unions, alliances with actual 25 00:01:55,880 --> 00:02:01,280 states with still the ability to borrow lots of money and buy 26 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:05,720 lots of weapons or make them themselves and deliver them to 27 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:09,919 era areas where natural resources of Africa are highly 28 00:02:10,199 --> 00:02:14,840 coveted. Strategic pressure points that 29 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:19,120 will allow for access to other regions are targeted. 30 00:02:19,640 --> 00:02:23,360 So unfortunately Sudan, just like many of its neighbours, 31 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:28,120 especially to the South, with the Democratic Republic of Congo 32 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:33,080 being perhaps the most notorious with Rwanda being a close 33 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:36,720 second. They are all been targeted since 34 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:42,040 the end of the Cold War, at least for plunder and chaos is 35 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:47,720 an actual wonderful context and condition to actually realise 36 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:50,640 very profitable plunder of natural resources. 37 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:56,680 I mean, Sudan has been in a country of interest to the 38 00:02:56,680 --> 00:03:00,520 British Empire for many for a very long time. 39 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:04,160 And of course, Kitchener, Khartoum, this is all something 40 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:05,520 which is part of British history. 41 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:09,280 Is this just the latest iteration of that same colonial 42 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:13,360 project? Indeed, it was actually Muhammad 43 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:20,400 Ali, the soldier of of Ottoman association, who successfully 44 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:25,240 expanded Egypt's influence deep into the tropical areas of East 45 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:28,840 Africa, Central Africa in the 1820s. 46 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:32,520 Eighteen 30s already and one of the primary reasons was open up 47 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:37,720 trade from Central Africa to the Mediterranean Red Sea, as well 48 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:43,640 as more importantly, secure access to gold in Sudan in those 49 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:49,000 days was much like West Africa, considered to be the equivalent 50 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:54,040 of California and other places where gold was highly it was 51 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:57,960 accessible and and considerable profits could be made from 52 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:02,640 mining. Now that's one one way of 53 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:05,880 understanding the development of Sudan's connection to Egypt and 54 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:10,360 how the British would inherit that when they occupied Egypt in 55 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:13,800 the 1880s. And unfortunately, the kind of 56 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:17,959 calculations that come with thinking about these areas are 57 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:24,880 primarily political, economic as opposed to moral or interest in 58 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:32,520 the quite very complex cultural checkerboard, if you will, of 59 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:37,640 the of the peoples who live in these like difficult areas of, 60 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:41,560 of Africa. So yes, the British still have 61 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:45,840 an interest through their their own kind of proxies, although 62 00:04:45,840 --> 00:04:50,960 it's there are multiple layers of separation now between those 63 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:54,240 who are really responsible for all of this and the ones who are 64 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:58,720 actually being blamed for it. So if we can maybe get into that 65 00:04:59,840 --> 00:05:04,040 in more detail about who are actually the primary foreign 66 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:07,640 actors at the moment. But let's not forget ever that 67 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:12,440 whether it's the UAE or Turkey or our other players out there, 68 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:16,200 that they are still deeply connected to the North Atlantic 69 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:19,960 Empire that have emerged in the 19th century. 70 00:05:20,840 --> 00:05:24,320 Yes. So do you think this is, is this 71 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:30,480 conflict sort of as a result of Chinese and and Russian 72 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:33,720 interests in this, in this area? And you know, on, on one side 73 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:37,960 and the other side, we've got British players like the Tony 74 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:40,520 Blair Foundation, Institute, whatever you want to call it 75 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:43,120 these days, very, very interested in this. 76 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:48,560 But also the European Union viewing North Africa, the Sahel 77 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:53,880 region right across the the southern area of the Sahara, 78 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:57,240 right across the Horn of Africa as being its southern 79 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:00,760 neighbourhood and and an area of its interests and influence. 80 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:03,400 My goodness, yeah. I mean, there's so many things 81 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:07,400 that come into play here. You mentioned Russia, which 82 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:13,440 especially private military capacities since the end of the 83 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:17,800 Cold War, they were out and provided services for various 84 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:21,800 dictatorships. I mean, Yugoslavian forces also 85 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:25,040 had a certain expertise and delivered and offered in 86 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:27,400 neighbouring Zaire. In those days it was called 87 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:33,160 Zaire military forces that helped shore up national armies. 88 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:39,520 Sudan, If we can go back maybe to the end of the Cold War, 89 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:43,160 where political Islam really starts to play an important 90 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:49,600 sedative role in subduing potentially very dangerous 91 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:53,720 regional actors. Who like Muammar Gaddafi for 92 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:59,200 instance, who had long been in the neighbouring Chad, which is 93 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:02,680 an important part of this story. What's happening in Sudan had 94 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:07,480 been involved in influencing and expanding Libya's influence in 95 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:11,760 this anti colonial struggle that cut across much of Africa since 96 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:15,480 the obviously the beginning of the ninth of the 20th century 97 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:22,440 and use of political slum in with the man named Turabi Hassan 98 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:25,960 Turabi became notoriously connected to these Muslim 99 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:30,760 Brotherhood outfits that started to spread and gain influence 100 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:35,720 throughout the Middle East and the Arabic speaking world in 101 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:39,920 sometimes obvious connections with what was happening in 102 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:42,840 Turkey. The rise of Erdogan first as a 103 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:48,440 mayor of Istanbul and then becomes this kind of shining 104 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:54,800 star of of political Islam and a kind of a realliance if you 105 00:07:55,040 --> 00:08:00,480 realignment of the Islamic world in relation to North Atlantic 106 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:03,040 world. And Turabi became this kind of 107 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:10,800 useful target for at least media LED campaigns against political 108 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:14,440 Islam where in fact there was actually deep partnerships. 109 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:20,520 We know that the the armed forces that were being used by 110 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:25,120 and funded and trained by the CIA and MI 6 around the world 111 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:30,600 did find safe haven also in Sudan during the 1990s, even 112 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:35,480 though periodically would be again a useful justification for 113 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:38,120 the war on terrorism. You know that Khartoum was 114 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:43,159 attacked by American forces at some point and notoriously the 115 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:50,160 hospital or factory building producing generic drugs was hit, 116 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:55,680 But that initiated or signalled to us that Sudan's oil wealth, 117 00:08:56,320 --> 00:09:01,760 Sudan's potential for mining. But more importantly, again, 118 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:09,000 it's it's geographic location, the Red Sea, the the Nile rivers 119 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:13,120 that were going to converge in Khartoum and continued to be a 120 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:18,000 big Geo strategic issue. And there were already in the 121 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:23,840 90s recognition that with the end of the regime in Ethiopia, 122 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:28,320 that Ethiopia and Eritrea, which divided Somalia, which would see 123 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:32,000 a process of disintegration, that Sudan was more or less 124 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:36,160 following the same track. Where it would became clear that 125 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:41,480 like Yemen, like Iraq, like Libya, breaking up these larger 126 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:46,040 amalgamated territories into zones of conflict, of chaos 127 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:51,560 would make it easier for determining or dictating the way 128 00:09:51,560 --> 00:09:53,760 these regions would be integrated into the global 129 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:58,360 economy moving forward. And unfortunately, Sudan would 130 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:03,040 first be on the radar screen, if you will, through this, right. 131 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:07,960 I think still Sudanese capable Sudanese resistance to this 132 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:10,960 process. Now it would be undermined by 133 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:13,360 political Islam, the relationship that political 134 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:16,920 Islam had in the narrative of as far as the British and the 135 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:21,280 Americans were concerned. So a lot of capacity, violent 136 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:26,320 capacities was brought to Sudan that led to civil war or 137 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:30,520 conflict between rival factions. As opportunities that were 138 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:35,800 opened up, South Sudan was encouraged to pursue war of 139 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:42,640 independence, which was ultimately secured with the 140 00:10:42,680 --> 00:10:46,160 incredible violence in the interim period leading to the 141 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:50,680 crisis in Darfur in the early 2000, where I think many of your 142 00:10:50,680 --> 00:10:54,280 listeners in the UK or elsewhere are probably remember. 143 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:58,880 Still, it was a legitimate humanitarian disaster which 144 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:04,840 pitted Muammar Gaddafi's forces who wanted to secure, protect, 145 00:11:05,680 --> 00:11:10,000 chat, their partners in Chad, against these encroachments of 146 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:16,400 now increasingly Gulf countries with their Muslim Brotherhood 147 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:20,920 assets. To take over the enterprise of 148 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:27,000 steering the Muslim world into the direction of cohabitating 149 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:30,720 comfortably with globalisation, with neoliberalism. 150 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:34,680 And again, a lot of principled peoples around the world, 151 00:11:34,680 --> 00:11:38,640 including Sudan, had a very articulate stand against that 152 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:41,960 process. They were not happy seeing a 153 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:45,160 potentially very rich independent country being 154 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:49,920 parcelled out, its assets being privatised as being demanded by 155 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:56,800 international agencies and development groups tied to the 156 00:11:56,800 --> 00:12:00,160 United States, Britain, the UN, etcetera, the IMF. 157 00:12:00,680 --> 00:12:06,080 So sadly much what we see the kind of playbook elsewhere in 158 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:08,120 the world, it's playing itself out in Sudan. 159 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:13,840 And the consequences are large parts of this vast country had 160 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:17,480 been parcelled off. Warlords were rewarded with 161 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:25,680 diplomatic recognition. They found secondary support 162 00:12:25,680 --> 00:12:29,320 from countries that seemingly were at odds with each other. 163 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:32,360 But if you actually go for deeper into their connections in 164 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:36,200 the global political economy, they actually share common 165 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:40,160 patrons, Israel, the United States, Britain. 166 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:46,920 So Turkey, Qatar seemingly at odds and in rivals against the 167 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:51,840 UAE, Saudi Arabia and who are playing the kind of leaders of 168 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:57,080 these proxy wars in place like Sudan are actually in other ways 169 00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:01,760 very well connected to the same usual suspects, if you will. 170 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:05,040 And unfortunately, when the Russians and the Chinese get 171 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:10,880 involved, their weapons, their soldiers, their know how they 172 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:15,280 are not very effectively able to demonstrate a separation from 173 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:18,320 this process either. They are implicated in this 174 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:23,120 violence and and it becomes in the media, it becomes in the 175 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:27,520 scholarship, classic example of Africans killing each other, 176 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:30,240 right. So civil war, that's the 177 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:34,080 narrative as it's been played out in elsewhere, but it is in 178 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:39,120 fact an invasion of global capital using various means to 179 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:42,840 disaggregate countries that could have very easily steered 180 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:47,440 their way after the Cold War into being independent, wealthy, 181 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:52,880 self sustaining society. And unfortunately for Sudan, 182 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:57,920 it's like Ethiopia, like the Horn of Africa, like Yemen, very 183 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:00,840 rich countries, a lot of its territory started to get 184 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:04,720 privatised and sold off, especially to investment firms 185 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:10,560 attached to sovereign wealth funds that were simply providing 186 00:14:10,560 --> 00:14:17,080 the kind of capital, if you will, for this process of 187 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:21,960 globalisation, of forcing Sudanese to surrender their 188 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:28,760 sovereignty to global capital. Yeah, use the term political 189 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:30,440 Islam. There are a number of times. 190 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:32,240 Could you just say a little bit more about that? 191 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:35,400 And are are you talking about the influence of Muslim 192 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:39,440 Brotherhood or Boko Haram and and Chad and Niger and so on? 193 00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:41,880 Is that is this all part of that same process? 194 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:48,280 Yes, we we lose again. We get distracted by seeing 195 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:55,200 jihadist takfiri groups as somehow a threat to Western 196 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:59,520 stability, where in fact they work and work in tandem with 197 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:05,880 agencies that see them as auxiliaries for otherwise what 198 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:08,200 would be necessarily overt invasions. 199 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:13,080 So again, while there were NATO plates dropping bombs in Libya, 200 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:17,440 it was actually these kinds of forces that were doing the heavy 201 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:20,800 lifting of killing and and taking over territories. 202 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:28,000 And the same would be applied in northern Nigeria, in Burkina 203 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:32,160 Faso, Niger, Mali, even though now there's been a response to 204 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:36,240 that misfit efforts by the peoples of the silo region to 205 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:41,320 try to reorganise and defend themselves from these tools of 206 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:45,200 Western imperialism, in Sudan, they have not, they have not 207 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:49,880 been able to escape that. And so again, the personalities 208 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:53,240 that sometimes are very articulate like this, Hassan 209 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:57,840 Turabi has long been marked as someone who actually stood on 210 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:03,160 principle against globalisation, against westernisation and is 211 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:06,840 supposedly steering their societies towards traditional 212 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:13,280 values basing based on something called Sharia law. 213 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:17,440 But they are simply just cookie cutter characters that have been 214 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:23,000 created and and are marketed as easy targets for justifying 215 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:26,560 heavy investment in destroying these societies. 216 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:31,920 They you cannot distinguish them from the origins which are again 217 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:35,360 intermediaries like Saudi Arabia or Qatar. 218 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:39,800 But if you just look deeper at the how Saudi Arabia and Qatar 219 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:45,560 are entirely serviceable to larger global capital interest, 220 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:50,160 then it's it's hard to see what happened to Sudan in two in 221 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:55,480 1990s and 2000s as anything but a manufactured externally 222 00:16:55,480 --> 00:17:01,000 manufactured very quickly rapidly decline the security 223 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:03,240 situation for the peoples of Sudan. 224 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:06,160 Again, people get a little confused in Sudan. 225 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:09,619 They got confused, they they became partisans in these so 226 00:17:09,619 --> 00:17:15,760 called ideological battles. Sudanese are very well educated, 227 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:19,680 they speak, they have Khartoum University. 228 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:24,440 I actually visited in 1993 this country and very, very 229 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:30,000 impressive society who are well represented around the world and 230 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,320 they had their responses. They had something called 231 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:35,160 neighbourhood resistance committees by the thousands 232 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:39,200 throughout Sudan organising fermenting kind of civic 233 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:43,440 resistance to this structural transformation of their country. 234 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:48,040 But they were always pushed aside and brutalised by militant 235 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:54,360 groups who were functionally armed by the security forces of 236 00:17:54,360 --> 00:17:57,880 Sudan or supported by intelligence agencies from 237 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:01,480 abroad. And again, just simply in the 238 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:05,600 kind of discourse about the Middle East, about the Islamic 239 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:10,040 world in Sudan, this became easily just marketed as simple 240 00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:16,360 conflict between Islamists and or between ethnic groups, Arabs, 241 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:22,560 between Arabs and Africans. And it's just not that easy. 242 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:29,920 And so political Islam became one of those animating forces 243 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:34,480 that force people to have into certain corners, if you will, 244 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:38,600 and became actually even more divided amongst themselves. 245 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:43,240 While there was desperate efforts by various intellectual 246 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:48,480 not Sudanese nationalists are saying let's not fall into this 247 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:51,040 trap. And again, you see this, this 248 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:53,640 personality of people resisting globalisation throughout the 249 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:58,080 world, but they have been regularly supplanted and pushed 250 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:03,160 aside by not only the violent militias and forces that 251 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:07,240 actually have the arms, but by the way we talk about these 252 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:09,040 conflicts. So it's not a civil, It was not 253 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:13,480 a civil war. It is not a civil war per SE. 254 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:19,320 At least its origins was not one conflict between Sudanese 255 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:23,800 entirely, even though they're the ones who are dying for the 256 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:29,160 last 30 years. Yeah, if if we if we look at a a 257 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:33,320 sort of standard narrative of what's going on there with the 258 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:37,120 the civil war supposed to involve Sudanese armed forces on 259 00:19:37,120 --> 00:19:42,680 one side and with the Rapid Support Forces, which is 260 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:44,920 supposed to be a paramilitary force. 261 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:49,640 And and the Janjaweed Coalition has mentioned as well. 262 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:54,320 I mean, I have no real understanding of of who is whom 263 00:19:54,320 --> 00:20:00,600 here and who's supported by which foreign influence. 264 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:03,360 So could you just say a little bit about who the main players 265 00:20:03,360 --> 00:20:07,920 are in in in the conflict in Sudan and and who is supporting 266 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:09,520 them? Right. 267 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:16,120 So this process of of seeing Sudan break apart and outsiders 268 00:20:16,120 --> 00:20:19,360 encouraging the separation of South Sudan, which supposedly 269 00:20:19,360 --> 00:20:26,640 culturally were either animists or Christian, and that led to it 270 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:31,960 was already in the Cold War. There was kind of factions being 271 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:34,640 armed at that stage. Again, it's connected to what's 272 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:37,840 happening in Rwanda and Uganda and DRC. 273 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:43,680 But the struggle by the Sudanese government in Khartoum to try to 274 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:49,240 preserve the borders of Sudan before and throughout the 2000s 275 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:55,960 was in in many ways steered by a coalition including this to Rabi 276 00:20:56,120 --> 00:20:59,480 figure that I mentioned before Muslim Brotherhood fiercely anti 277 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:02,360 communist. So if you put that into the 278 00:21:02,360 --> 00:21:06,640 context of the late Cold War Hudico Islam is a mobilising 279 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:09,520 force. It was also seen as one is to 280 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:13,760 explaining why the central government in Sudan in Khartoum 281 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:17,960 was so violent against Southern Sudanese. 282 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:21,200 And that's why Southern Sudanese separation was necessary. 283 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:25,520 And one of the ways that the Sudanese government over the 284 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:30,360 throughout the 1990s and 2000s in their attempt to try to keep 285 00:21:30,360 --> 00:21:34,760 Southern Sudan, where 80% of the oil of Sudan is based and 286 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:37,000 probably a lots of its gold as well. 287 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:42,800 That they would have to resort to mobilising forces that were 288 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:46,640 outside of the military itself in order to protect the the 289 00:21:47,120 --> 00:21:51,400 formal government from accusations of war crimes or or 290 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:56,920 seeing maybe what kind of formal efforts to shut down their 291 00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:01,360 operations in what was clearly in some circles in the West 292 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:07,720 trying to mobilise evangelical Christianity as a kind of cause 293 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:10,120 celebrity sport. That South Sudan needed 294 00:22:10,120 --> 00:22:11,840 separation. So what happened is that we 295 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:18,000 started to see militias emerging and the Janjaweeds were by 296 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:26,160 design fanatical Islamic takfiri types who were to pursue the 297 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:33,880 ethnic purification and the removal of problematic non Arab, 298 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:39,680 non Muslim populations along the borders of South Sudan and Chad. 299 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:44,000 And so the Janjaweeds emerged in this context. 300 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:47,200 And one of the key actors and partners of this process we just 301 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:51,600 solved, by the way, in The Hague the the the charging of war 302 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:54,200 crimes by one of the leaders of the Janjaweed. 303 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:56,400 It was just yesterday, I believe, or two days ago. 304 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:00,960 What was his name? I can't remember now his name? 305 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,280 Who's Rahman? Abdul Rahman, who was just now 306 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:07,920 charged for war crimes. But his primary partner on the 307 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:13,200 ground was this Muhammad Davallo or Emmetti, who had now 308 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:18,640 inherited this old operations at Khartoum government and the 309 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:24,640 official military had harvested to conduct military actions in 310 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:28,600 Brave unprofessional ways. Let's just say just a very 311 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:34,200 brutal regime of violence against targeted populations 312 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:37,840 that led to the what we call we can call a genocide in Darfur in 313 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:41,960 the early 2000s. They were able to secure, 314 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:46,320 however, that part of Sudan from being separated to being to 315 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:51,880 create a separate ethnic state as was on call often in Western 316 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:55,760 circles at the time. But it also helped create kind 317 00:23:55,760 --> 00:24:01,000 of structural dynamic that allows his Hemeti to become now 318 00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:06,440 a kingmaker in larger Sudan. Omar Boshif who's was notorious 319 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,720 and became the kind of again poster child for how the West 320 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:15,280 will intervene and try to halt Islamic fundamentalism as it's 321 00:24:17,360 --> 00:24:20,360 as it's manifested in the Khartoum government. 322 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:25,280 Sudan will be become part of the larger problem. 323 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:29,080 There will be collective efforts in international community to 324 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:34,040 isolate Omar Bashir's government but again they they will be able 325 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:39,720 to avoid and circumvent some of the restrictions on their 326 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:44,240 military capacity by maintaining these militias that seem to 327 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,200 operate independent of the state. 328 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:50,080 And accordingly there will be money funnelled and and supply 329 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:54,000 chains will be opened up to provide his Hemeti with the 330 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,600 capacity to be a major player in Sudanese politics. 331 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:02,040 To the extent today actually leads to along with his 332 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:07,360 sometimes partner Bohan, who is now currently the general 333 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:12,120 leading the so called Sudanese official Sudanese army and they 334 00:25:12,120 --> 00:25:14,080 recognised the Sudanese government. 335 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:19,640 They worked together to assured that the popular revolution that 336 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:21,760 was happening on the streets throughout Sudan. 337 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:25,360 After a great deal of fatigue and a very well organised, as I 338 00:25:25,360 --> 00:25:28,160 mentioned, there were these neighbourhood committees being 339 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,680 established throughout Sudan kind of doing what was happening 340 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:35,240 elsewhere in the Arab Spring in 2010 two 1011. 341 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:40,640 So this was manifesting in 2018, two, 1019 and much like 342 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:48,480 elsewhere, Muslim Brotherhood, Takshiri type groups mobilising 343 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:54,320 if necessary, ethnic politics, language, politics, a suppress, 344 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:59,360 a popular uprising against Omar Bashir, He will be replaced by a 345 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,760 now recognised coalition that would bring this Burhan and 346 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:08,360 Himmati together. And that's where we were at 347 00:26:08,360 --> 00:26:13,240 2020, 2019-2020. And over the next couple of 348 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:16,760 years, these two groups start to separate. 349 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:22,040 They start to take conflicting claims over who actually has 350 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:26,320 authority and who has the right to claim to be representative of 351 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:28,160 the official Sudanese government. 352 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:32,800 And they're all the privileges that come with that, negotiating 353 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:38,480 for loans, getting access to the key infrastructure assets that 354 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:41,960 still remained. There would still be the open 355 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:45,440 question about the pipelines that would connect South Sudan's 356 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,720 oil with the Red Sea and international markets. 357 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:53,640 So that was all up for grabs. And that's when you start to see 358 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:59,480 new opportunities for taking sides, supporting both now 359 00:26:59,920 --> 00:27:04,920 clearly delineated factions inside this coalition, which 360 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:10,080 again functioned to suppress real popular revolution in Sudan 361 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:14,440 to actually see let Sudan, Sudanese taking control of their 362 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,680 destiny again. Again, very articulate. 363 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:22,720 We can even say with sometimes a Marxist critique of Sudan's 364 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:26,480 relations with the larger world informing how these popular 365 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:30,400 communities were demanding for a representative government, but 366 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,920 that was not going to be allowed by the international community. 367 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:38,920 And So what it becomes is then who is going to represent the 368 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:42,080 international compete community's interests in Sudan. 369 00:27:42,360 --> 00:27:48,280 And it's these two basically warlords and their loyal or 370 00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:51,200 relatively loyal armies around them. 371 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,040 And that leads to what we call the RSF. 372 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:58,440 This is the Hemeti, the old Janjaweeds kind of militias that 373 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:01,440 worked in partnership with Khartoum throughout the 2000s. 374 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:07,880 It is now virtually taking over the Western Sudan where all the 375 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:11,640 gold mines are. It has received a great deal of 376 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:16,280 part of support from let's say spin offs of the Wagner Group 377 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:20,800 that has established itself as a kind of protection agency for 378 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:24,880 mining operations in Central African Republic and elsewhere 379 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:28,440 throughout Africa. And more importantly, the main, 380 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:33,000 let's say market, if you will, for this blood gold that's being 381 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:38,880 plundered from Western Sudan and that's the gold market in Dubai. 382 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,800 And it's become now an editorious connection between 383 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:49,320 RSF or Hemeti and the UAE is becoming kind of the the useful 384 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:55,240 target, if you will, for explaining how this war works, 385 00:28:55,360 --> 00:29:00,200 how this horrible situation Sudan works, that it's the UA ES 386 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:07,000 role in sustaining the RSF. While in the meantime, Turkey, 387 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:10,800 Qatar, perhaps Israel, which I by the way, had signed an 388 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:17,000 agreement first with Omar Bashir and then with this Burhan in 389 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:23,400 2020 to normalise relations akin to what happened with Bahrain 390 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:28,560 and and the UAE around the same time under the late Trump. 391 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:33,520 First, the Trump administration. So that that element is comes 392 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:37,400 into play here as well. But today we're supposedly 393 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:43,200 seeing an enduring war that burst out in Khartoum itself in 394 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:49,920 2023 with the RSF this Hemeti militia for a while at least 395 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:54,800 occupying Khartoum, forcing the recognised government to move 396 00:29:54,800 --> 00:30:01,200 operations to Port Sudan and continuing with this war of of 397 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:09,000 plunder in western Sudan with the so called government of of 398 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:13,160 Sudan now in Port Sudan. The city of Port Sudan on the 399 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:20,560 Red Sea just in May, I think it was March, April, May of what 400 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:25,360 are able to re secure Khartoum of 2025 and the city is 401 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:30,280 destroyed. And much of the possibility of 402 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:36,040 let's say making Sudan, whatever remains of Sudan a functional 403 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:41,760 country is virtually impossible as long as this rivalry 404 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:45,480 continues and it continues to be fed with weapons coming from 405 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:50,240 China, from UAE. The Chinese drones are usually 406 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:53,560 and other kind of sophisticated anti aircraft weapons are coming 407 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:57,200 through the UAE which are then shipped to Chad or to Central 408 00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:00,080 African Republic and then transported by land. 409 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:04,440 Even though there is de facto central international 410 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:11,160 communities oversight condemning these operations, pricing 411 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:15,520 embargoes on the companies that are involved often directly 412 00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:21,480 connected by family to Amethi based in the UAE or based in 413 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:25,920 Uganda or Rwanda, which is also one of those destabilising 414 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:32,520 forces in in Africa, which requires another requires 415 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:34,400 another episode. I think. 416 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:38,480 I'm sorry for your audience. It's very complicated. 417 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,040 It sounds like I'm just running off in all kinds of directions, 418 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:44,720 but that's it. It's it would not be fair to 419 00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:48,640 just say it's a simple proxy war, But it that's what how it's 420 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:54,040 become, at least at the this phase now where it's impossible 421 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:57,680 to talk about Sudan in in many circles because of the 422 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:01,520 conflicted interest of those who are supposedly intervening to 423 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:04,680 try to stop this war. And if we actually again push 424 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:09,320 ourselves to see who's actually at the very end responsible for 425 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:12,480 all this, it's those who are claim claim to now having the 426 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:16,680 exclusive right to determine how this war ends. 427 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:19,600 And there's the very simple fact that they don't want to see this 428 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:21,320 war end. There's just so much wealth 429 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:26,240 being plundered from Sudan at the moment, much like what we 430 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,400 see elsewhere in the in, in Africa and and parts of the 431 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:31,520 Middle East. There's not going to be a 432 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:36,760 resolution because the United States, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, 433 00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:43,760 Qatar, the UAE, Russia, China, they all have their very 434 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:48,560 specific interests at play here that have nothing to do with 435 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:53,240 strategically, you know, defying, if you will, and, and 436 00:32:53,240 --> 00:33:00,040 challenging arrivals. It's more seeing access to the 437 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:04,240 assets that are being plundered and having maybe a greater, 438 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:09,360 let's say, piece of the, of this Sudanese pie that's rapidly 439 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:14,000 being torn away and eaten up by global capitalism. 440 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:18,680 So that's, that's how I don't know if I if that's a 441 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,760 satisfactory way of explaining what's happening between the so 442 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:25,840 called Sudanese forces and the RSF. 443 00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:31,640 But just now in the last couple of weeks, it's gotten more 444 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:37,480 worse, even more so because when it's the rainy season, there's, 445 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:40,840 it's very hard to actually have ground battles in Sudan at the 446 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:42,840 moment. At least in the western Darfur 447 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:45,360 area. There's the city of Al Fasha, 448 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:49,360 which is the main city of Darfur, which is under siege now 449 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:55,720 for I think 500 plus days, 300, four, 100,000 people are stuck 450 00:33:55,720 --> 00:34:01,680 there dying, starving. The 14,000,000 Sudanese are now 451 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:07,480 categorically under the radar of of possible starvation, 452 00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:12,880 suffering from hunger. And now the drones, the warfare 453 00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:18,880 that is becoming more and more a, a, a quality of life in many, 454 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:22,920 many parts of the world, whether it be in Eurasia or in Africa 455 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:29,520 has now become a feature of the war in Sudan where drones are 456 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:33,520 being flown into cities and destroying infrastructure. 457 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:38,760 In Port Sudan, the so called capital of of the RSF, this 458 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:45,440 Hemeti, UAE backed Hemeti was syphoning off much of the gold. 459 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:50,480 His capital Naila is also been attacked by drones that have 460 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:55,120 been provided by Erdogan's son in law by Rakhtar's company. 461 00:34:56,000 --> 00:35:01,120 So the same kind of weaponry that is being marketed as a new 462 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:08,920 kind of warfare in Gaza or in the eastern Ukraine is now being 463 00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:13,680 used to great effect, great destructive effect in places 464 00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:16,480 like Sudan. So that's where we're at. 465 00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:21,040 And yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, look, I was just 466 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:24,240 going to comment on on, you know, how hard it is for people 467 00:35:24,240 --> 00:35:29,120 to to understand all the all the names that are being given out 468 00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:30,480 here. I mean, I, I grew up. 469 00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:35,760 He's in, in Northern Ireland and even that relatively simple 470 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:39,080 conflict was, was very difficult for people that are outside the 471 00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:41,200 country to, to really get to grips with. 472 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:45,200 So, so I'm, you know, I'm also struggling somewhat with all the 473 00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:49,560 players now what I'd what I'd like to get an idea of, because 474 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:54,200 the British government insists that no British arms or weaponry 475 00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:56,840 goes to Sudan, that that's banned. 476 00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:01,840 The question is, are British or European or United States or how 477 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:06,240 much weaponry from from our military industrial complex is 478 00:36:06,240 --> 00:36:10,200 going through these Middle Eastern countries to contribute 479 00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:15,240 to to that side of the conflict? Again, I think there's there's 480 00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:21,360 many layers of separation now. I think that what the UK and US 481 00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:26,160 are doing are providing the kind of the infrastructure of 482 00:36:26,240 --> 00:36:31,280 diplomacy of, of maintaining and securing the narrative about 483 00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:34,640 what's going on in Sudan as opposed to the actual mechanics 484 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:40,520 of the war itself. You know, the, the technical 485 00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:41,880 side. And the ones who are actually 486 00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:47,920 fighting these wars are from the region itself or from Turkey, 487 00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:51,880 UAE, Russia. So those whose those populations 488 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:55,640 who are have been scattered by events after the Cold War ended 489 00:36:56,360 --> 00:37:00,800 have found no new niches, new roles to play with manpower 490 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:06,120 being come coming from countries that have historically trained 491 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:10,680 their civilians in in some shape or form in military. 492 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:13,960 UAE doesn't really have a functioning army per SE, but it 493 00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:18,120 does have the means to actually recruit actively from overseas. 494 00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:22,520 We know the RSF, for instance, Amethi sent thousands of his 495 00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:26,240 fighters several years ago to Yemen, for instance. 496 00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:32,200 They also helped shore up the government in east Libya on 497 00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:38,240 behalf of the UAE and their allies in that war that that 498 00:37:38,240 --> 00:37:40,080 happened since the fall of Gaddafi. 499 00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:46,160 So the manpower is provided to the large extent in from Chad, 500 00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:53,360 Sudan itself, from Colombia, from other countries that seem 501 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:58,480 to have become as a, as a kind of development model providing, 502 00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:01,760 availing their men to fight in wars around the world. 503 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:04,800 Then unfortunately it includes Russians and Ukrainians. 504 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:11,320 They're part of the story. The technicians who are perhaps 505 00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:14,040 flying the drones are actually coming from the UAE and from 506 00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:19,040 Turkey. The the last rate series of air 507 00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:24,160 battles taking place with drones saw the death of technicians who 508 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:28,760 were Turkish and Emirati members of Emirati and Turkish military 509 00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:31,840 services. So that makes it an interesting 510 00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:37,080 way of answering your question that it's it's not arms coming 511 00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:42,080 from Lockheed Martin or the equivalent BASF. 512 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:44,160 These are not, I mean, those are too expensive. 513 00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:47,480 I think for this kind of war. This is a war of machine guns, 514 00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:56,720 some grenades, rocket propelled grenades and relatively cheap 515 00:38:56,720 --> 00:39:05,760 drones that are made in in Turkey in maybe there's some now 516 00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:10,200 factories in the Gulf, we don't know, made in China. 517 00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:13,360 And they make their way into these theatres just like the old 518 00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:19,920 AK47 used to do that. But the CIAMI MI6 there again, 519 00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:22,840 their allies in the region are more than happy to pay for those 520 00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:25,040 weapons. But the ones who are going to be 521 00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:29,360 dying are the ones who are hired as guns for hire or even not 522 00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:32,920 even guns for hire, but just to survive, to eat. 523 00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:37,000 We saw that throughout the wars in 1990s in West Africa that 524 00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:41,080 kids would be armed and they would be more than willing to 525 00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:43,800 kill because they that's the only way they could eat because 526 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:47,320 they were orphaned. And Sudanese has produced the 527 00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:49,960 wars, the violence in East Africa and the Horn of Africa 528 00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:55,000 has produced millions of such kinds of people who have no 529 00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:59,400 other means but to kill in order to or you know. 530 00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:05,000 Be avail themselves to kill in order for them to survive. 531 00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:10,120 That's their now. It's a very rational, 532 00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:13,080 unfortunately it's a very rational decision that people 533 00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:18,120 are making who have again no families anymore or they have 534 00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:20,560 families and they have to feed. So how are you going to do that 535 00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:27,080 when your country is in complete turned upside down so you don't 536 00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:29,400 need boots on the ground. There may be again some 537 00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:33,720 technical there are certain CIA and MI 6 assets are on the 538 00:40:33,720 --> 00:40:36,360 ground observing all of this as well as are. 539 00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:38,760 They just observing or are they well? 540 00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:40,600 Maybe they are. They're also helping, 541 00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:43,960 facilitating the and directing the way the conflict is being 542 00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:45,280 fought. That's it's. 543 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:48,320 But I think they're, again, they have been able to separate 544 00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:51,120 themselves a little bit by way of having these other regional 545 00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:56,680 actors take the lion's share of the responsibility from media, 546 00:40:56,840 --> 00:41:02,680 academic focus to the actual practical dying in these fields. 547 00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:07,880 So Turkish technicians, Emirati technicians are the ones now 548 00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:12,440 being killed alongside those that they are supporting these 549 00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:19,240 local regional fighters. So, but the, the, the 550 00:41:19,240 --> 00:41:23,880 responsibility still lies in Washington, in London for sure. 551 00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:27,840 If but that's how these wars unfortunately are so 552 00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:32,560 successfully Blair and those types that separate themselves 553 00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:36,120 so neatly, right? The war in Gaza is a war of 554 00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:41,040 empire, but we are going to focus on personalities like 555 00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:46,560 Netanyahu is almost exclusively responsible for Hamas, where in 556 00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:53,280 fact this, as we can see with Trump's marketing, the the 557 00:41:53,280 --> 00:42:00,280 future development of a destroyed refugee compound. 558 00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:04,680 I mean this this if you really push it, This is the kind of 559 00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:10,440 nature of disaster capitalism. I, I don't like to use this this 560 00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:15,440 woman's phrase, but this is very much the working model since the 561 00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:19,680 end of the Cold War. And unfortunately Sudan has been 562 00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:23,840 sucked into this logic. And even though the Sudanese by 563 00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:27,520 the vast majority had a response to this, but they were never 564 00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:32,000 allowed to pursue democratically their their demands for 565 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:36,280 autonomy, for independence. And just so that we're 566 00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:38,560 absolutely clear about this, I mean, you've, you've talked 567 00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:42,760 about Russia and China's contribution to this. 568 00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:49,120 But is it the case that in fact the, the Belt and Rd initiative 569 00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:53,000 hasn't contributed to, to solving this problem in any way 570 00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:55,360 up to this point? Or is is it the case that that 571 00:42:55,360 --> 00:43:00,000 that actually that is the the the potential way out of this at 572 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:03,840 the end of the day? Well, the pipelines that for 573 00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:09,800 instance, Kenya, which funded by Chinese finance that will 574 00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:14,160 eventually spirit South Sudan's oil, not through Sudan, but 575 00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:19,800 through Kenya, that one could look at it in a positive way. 576 00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:24,080 But it's also kind of functioning in, in very much the 577 00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:29,720 same ways that I was just in very great detail explaining 578 00:43:29,720 --> 00:43:31,440 what was happening to these countries. 579 00:43:31,720 --> 00:43:35,640 I mean, I mean building infrastructure to access Dr CS 580 00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:42,360 minerals, whether it be done by way of Chinese financing and 581 00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:48,080 Chinese expertise or development agencies that were in the back 582 00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:55,440 pocket in historically with the United States or Britain results 583 00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:58,320 in the same thing. The plunder of these countries 584 00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:06,400 with very little positive coming to nothing positive for the 585 00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:08,800 populations who are suffering from the environmental 586 00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:13,520 destruction from often the, the, the lion's share of the wealth 587 00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:17,360 just being exported out to international markets. 588 00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:20,600 So the, the, in the end, the, the end result is the same. 589 00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:25,640 They, there's there are these new demands on raw materials 590 00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:28,600 that find their way out in the international markets, 591 00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:31,800 regardless if it's done through a Beltway that's funded by 592 00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:36,440 Chinese working class savings or by Wall Street. 593 00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:40,320 And there are people who are going to die on on on either end 594 00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:42,480 of that. There's nothing has been 595 00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:46,000 resolved with DRC. No one's intervened to stop the 596 00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:54,040 war in Yemen or in Sudan or in or in Ethiopia, even though they 597 00:44:54,880 --> 00:45:02,840 supposedly BRICS countries are invested in in at least that as 598 00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:05,680 a way. It's as it's marketed as an 599 00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:11,400 alternative to what has been long recognised as a fundamental 600 00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:15,600 problem with Western capital trying to secure the very same 601 00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:20,240 assets that are now availed. Because the heavy lifting has 602 00:45:20,240 --> 00:45:27,280 been taken over by the savings of Chinese middle class who have 603 00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:31,200 been built up since the 1980s, Nineteen 90s thanks to Europe's 604 00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:34,280 and America's infrastructure moving to China. 605 00:45:35,040 --> 00:45:37,920 So all of our Apple phones and all this technology that we're 606 00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:41,880 using to talk to each other now, which is now made by brilliant 607 00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:47,120 hard working people, has resulted in a huge pool of money 608 00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:53,680 that does the work of empire in. It's just in different terms and 609 00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:58,760 sadly weapons from China are killing people from Sudan, just 610 00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:06,160 like weapons from Israel or Turkey or BASF, and no one's put 611 00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:09,000 a stop to that. And So what do you think it's 612 00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:11,840 going to take to get a stop to, I mean, is this, is this a 613 00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:17,560 matter of of general populations understanding even that this is 614 00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:22,320 happening and being willing to to provide some kind of 615 00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:24,720 opposition or how do you see this ending? 616 00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:28,520 Well, vast majority of Sudanese understood this from the very 617 00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:32,400 beginning and again, their efforts to organise and 618 00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:36,800 peacefully or maybe not even peacefully, but to secure 619 00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:43,680 independence from this juggernaut of globalisation was 620 00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:48,040 suppressed by the very violent factor factions who are now at 621 00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:51,480 war with each other. How this is going to stop? 622 00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:54,200 It's not going to stop because the Donald Trump's 623 00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:58,160 administration or Tony Blair's think tank comes and saves the 624 00:46:58,160 --> 00:46:59,320 day. That's not going to happen 625 00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:02,120 because they're not interested in seeing the end of this war or 626 00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:05,480 any other war. What's going to stop it 627 00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:07,800 unfortunately is going to be the exhaustion of the people 628 00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:10,720 themselves or that one of the factions actually is able to 629 00:47:10,720 --> 00:47:13,680 secure ultimately a military victory. 630 00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:19,000 But the very fact that if you again, supposed rivals in the 631 00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:23,000 region, Turkey and Qatar versus Saudi Arabia and UAE, the very 632 00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:26,120 fact that all these countries have American military bases 633 00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:32,440 means that they all and they all help supply Israel during their 634 00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:37,920 their very particular war against indigenous peoples to 635 00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:43,480 secure resources to change the dynamics of, of Palestine. 636 00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:49,720 They're all serving in the end, a larger enterprise that has 637 00:47:49,720 --> 00:47:53,400 unfortunately, since the Cold War, become quite very clear 638 00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:57,160 that it's, it's, it's a, it's a race to the end in which a very 639 00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:00,680 small percentage of the people in the world have absolute 640 00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:04,560 authority over our lives through their technology, through their 641 00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:08,840 laws, and more importantly, have absolute control over the 642 00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:12,400 natural resources and the wealth that these resources produce for 643 00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:15,480 them. And again, wealth equals power. 644 00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:18,840 They have more money than they can ever need. 645 00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:23,160 But the, the, the way that this wealth is accumulated actually 646 00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:28,840 destroys societies who have until today been able to at 647 00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:32,680 least put some kind of brake on this process that we've been 648 00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:35,560 monitoring for the last two hundred, 250 years. 649 00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:41,920 So societies like Yemen, like Sudan, in parts of Eastern 650 00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:46,720 Africa, Horn of Africa who have and have incredibly 651 00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:50,560 sophisticated understanding of how their with their place in 652 00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:53,560 the world and they've been articulating resistance to this. 653 00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:58,240 They have been destroyed by these various tactics and 654 00:48:58,240 --> 00:49:02,640 unfortunate that implicates everyone who benefits from the 655 00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:06,880 plunder of Africa, not just the usual suspects that we like to 656 00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:09,040 highlight in our own neighbourhood. 657 00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:15,800 But this is a global phenomenon. And everyone who's seeing gold 658 00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:22,120 or oil, buying that oil and gold or the cobalt, they're all 659 00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:26,960 responsible for this. Not unfortunately. 660 00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:29,360 And who's going to take the blame? 661 00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:32,600 UAE, Turkey, you know that that's Israel. 662 00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:36,920 Those are, again, I think a misdirection of our our, our 663 00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:42,920 focus of, of critique and we ultimately need to stop our own 664 00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:47,760 City of London, Wall Street, Shanghai people who are 665 00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:50,560 profiting from this. I think that's a good place to 666 00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:52,920 leave it for today, he said. Lumi, thank you very much for 667 00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:55,640 joining me today. I would really love to, to, to 668 00:49:55,760 --> 00:50:01,560 follow up with this and, and look at other areas in, in Sahel 669 00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:05,800 and that are experiencing not perhaps not the same scale, but 670 00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:08,960 certainly insurgencies of their own and, and understand this, 671 00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:12,240 this region a lot better. Because obviously all the focus 672 00:50:12,240 --> 00:50:16,200 is on Eastern Europe and, and the Middle East at the moment, 673 00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:19,040 but it's not the only problem. So thank you very much for 674 00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:20,920 joining me today. Thank you, Mike. 675 00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:21,720 Thank you very much.