1 00:00:38,230 --> 00:00:42,960 Mike, I am in my new studio. As you can see behind me, it's 2 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:46,440 not yet finished. Please forgive the nature of 3 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:48,760 this recording. Also, there's no Charles here. 4 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:53,520 No indeed, he is on holiday with his family and a well deserved 5 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:57,000 one at that. I got a message this morning, 6 00:00:57,000 --> 00:01:00,560 Mike, in, I don't know, Telegram or whatever it was, someone said 7 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:04,959 what's happening in Gaza's it the, the, the line was, well, 8 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:07,880 this is what happens in a war. And it was in response to the 9 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:11,720 absolutely devastating footage of what's of what we're seeing 10 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:14,320 there. It's not a war. 11 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:19,800 That is an excellent point, right? 12 00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:25,440 A war is a conflict between two relatively equal parties, or 13 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:29,280 maybe multiple relatively equal parties, you know, that are 14 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:32,360 effectively armed, the same, have the same kinds of budgets 15 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:36,320 and they're determined to, you know, beat each other up 16 00:01:36,320 --> 00:01:38,480 somewhat. This is not a war in the sense 17 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:41,640 that, you know, Hamas, no matter what you think about Hamas as an 18 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:46,280 organisation, is a militia. It's not a, it's not a national 19 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:50,560 army because there is no nation and they have no budget. 20 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:55,560 And so, you know, the relative, the, the relative disparity 21 00:01:55,560 --> 00:02:00,440 between that that side, the Palestinian side and the Israeli 22 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:04,480 side is, is what makes this conflict so reprehensible and 23 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:07,600 what has made the entire situation so reprehensible from 24 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:09,360 the beginning. And I have to say, Jeremy, you 25 00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:12,440 know, this was this was something a conversation that I 26 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:16,920 had with, with people that were pro Palestine or, sorry, pro 27 00:02:16,920 --> 00:02:20,240 Israel right back to, you know, October 7. 28 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:25,240 And it's something that people that are pro Israel don't seem 29 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:28,000 to get. They think that Israel is 30 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:30,800 justified in doing anything that it does because they're dealing 31 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:33,960 with terrorism. Just to remind everybody that, 32 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:37,120 you know, the, the, the, the principle of terrorism isn't 33 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:39,880 even defined. And in fact, one of the things 34 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:43,200 that this conflict seems to be doing is to, is to be raising 35 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:45,000 that point. And, and people are starting to 36 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:48,360 ask the question also, the fact that the, that the Terrorism Act 37 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:51,720 is being used with such impunity in the United Kingdom to shut 38 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:56,000 down freedom of speech. These issues are, are raising 39 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:58,360 the question of, of even what is terrorism. 40 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:03,640 But the other final point to make on this is the question of 41 00:03:03,640 --> 00:03:07,040 international law in this situation and and the question 42 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:10,880 of occupation. And because Israel is an 43 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:16,360 occupying power under international law, Palestinians 44 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:21,240 have the right to do whatever they feel is necessary to resist 45 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:27,160 that occupation. And you know, if we think back 46 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:29,480 to the Second War, World War, for example, the French or the 47 00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:33,000 Belgian resistance groups or the Dutch resistance groups or even 48 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:37,160 the German resistance groups were not considered by Britain 49 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:40,440 or the United States to be terrorist organisations. 50 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:44,160 Undoubtedly they were considered to be terrorist organisations by 51 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:47,320 the Nazis. So, you know, we've got to be, 52 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:49,120 we've got to be careful with their definitions. 53 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:53,360 We've got to be, try to be objective no matter what we 54 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:57,120 think about, about the thing, try to be objective with, with 55 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:03,320 our, you know, our observation of what's going on and, and our 56 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:07,240 use of the word war, because using war in this context is 57 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:10,800 just completely inappropriate. Well, I just looked up the 58 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:13,760 definition of terrorism and it says yeah, it's defined as the 59 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:17,959 unlawful use of violence or threats to intimidate or coerce 60 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:21,160 A civilian, population or government with the goal of 61 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:24,200 furthering political, social or ideological objectives. 62 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:27,920 You could probably argue, therefore, that Israel is a 63 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:31,920 terrorist. Well, absolutely, absolutely. 64 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:37,240 And and Britain and any country that is supporting a conflict 65 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:41,880 anywhere but. But then the term is fuzzy. 66 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:43,480 Then the term is. Precisely. 67 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:45,240 That was exactly what I was about to say. 68 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:47,920 The problem with that definition is that that certain terms are 69 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:50,520 undefined and where's the line drawn? 70 00:04:50,840 --> 00:04:53,600 You know, at the moment Britain is drawing a line with respect 71 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:56,960 to terrorism that that effectively, if someone throws 72 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:00,920 some paint on an aeroplane, whether or not it's on an RAF 73 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:03,120 base is irrelevant. They throw some paint on an 74 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:04,840 aeroplane, that's a an act of terrorism. 75 00:05:04,840 --> 00:05:07,120 It's, it's not an act of terrorism, that's an act of 76 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:11,440 protest. And so that's at least in my 77 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:13,920 mind, that's an act of protest, not an act of terrorism in 78 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:16,760 somebody else's mind. So because the definition is so 79 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:24,400 open to, to distortion and, and subjectivity that that in itself 80 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:27,440 is problematic. But that doesn't, you know, in, 81 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:30,960 in this case, that doesn't change the fact that the people 82 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:35,720 of Palestine are subject to, to an occupation and therefore they 83 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:37,680 have rights under international law. 84 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:40,360 And this is international law that we have all signed up to. 85 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:45,920 And so, you know, the fact, the fact that the fact that that our 86 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:51,600 countries are prepared to say on one hand, yeah, we we are fully 87 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:53,560 behind the rules based international order, 88 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:57,480 international law, all these kinds of terms are are bandied 89 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:01,760 about by our politicians with the full intention of pretty 90 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:07,160 much ignoring them. OK, but then the term war is 91 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:11,520 also fuzzy because it would it would imply that there is an 92 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:14,800 equal force on either side, and as you just pointed out, this is 93 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:18,920 an occupation. Yeah, I mean this, this does not 94 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:22,480 the, again, this is not a war. This, this is an occupation. 95 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:24,840 And and this is a resistance to an occupation. 96 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:29,280 And this is the absolutely brutal suppression of a 97 00:06:29,280 --> 00:06:34,240 resistance using, you know, methods which are so 98 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:38,560 disproportionate and, you know, but, but the other point of this 99 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:42,040 is German that it's absolutely clear now, it's been clear for a 100 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:46,800 long time that the what the ultimate intention of this is, 101 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:51,280 and that is to remove Palestinians from Gaza. 102 00:06:51,840 --> 00:06:54,400 And the, the other thing that that's going on, of course, is 103 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:59,080 while all the focus is on Gaza, similar activities are going on 104 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:04,400 in the West Bank. And, and in fact, Israel this 105 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:07,280 week has been attempting to hold a meeting. 106 00:07:07,280 --> 00:07:12,360 They tried on Tuesday and it was put off until Thursday and then 107 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:15,360 they tried again on Thursday and they've put it off again. 108 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:21,480 They were holding a meeting about whether to annex part of 109 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:27,280 the West Bank following the demands by Britain and France 110 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:29,600 that they would recognise the Palestinian state. 111 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:33,800 Now, my personal view of this recognition of Palestinian state 112 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:37,240 is the these claims from Britain and France is that they're 113 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:40,960 basically telling Israel to get on with it because if they don't 114 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:44,360 achieve their goals by a certain date, you know this. 115 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:46,520 So this is about putting pressure on Israel to get on 116 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:51,360 with things. Nonetheless, Israel has as, As 117 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:55,280 for whatever reason, I suspect because they don't feel that 118 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:58,840 they can get on with things as quickly as, as they're being 119 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:04,680 encouraged to, that they were considering annexing part of the 120 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:08,800 West Bank to sort of minimise the the implications of a 121 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:10,520 recognition of a Palestinian state. 122 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:14,120 But UAE has stepped in and said, well, no, if you do that, we're 123 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:16,000 going to withdraw from the Abraham Accord. 124 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:20,440 So, so Israel's now dropped that idea again for the meantime, but 125 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:23,320 this is an idea that has come come up periodically. 126 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:26,200 So, so undoubtedly it's going to come up again in the future. 127 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:29,520 But you know this, this is a country which is, which is 128 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:35,200 behaving absolutely beyond any sense of reasonableness. 129 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:39,600 But of course any criticism of that is subject to accusations 130 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:42,559 of anti Semitism. And this whole conflation of 131 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:46,600 anti Zionism and anti semitism I think is really problematic. 132 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:50,480 You said international. Law. 133 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:54,320 I swore yes. It doesn't mean anything. 134 00:08:56,160 --> 00:09:01,640 That's that's not true. I think that I think that 135 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:05,960 Western governments are trying to make it not mean anything. 136 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:08,440 They certainly are ignoring it when it, when they, when it 137 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:11,840 suits them. I think that Russia and China 138 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:19,640 have been pretty reasonable in their in their observance of 139 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:22,400 international law in the last lot of years. 140 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:26,720 That is much to the disgust of the United States, the United 141 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:30,840 Kingdom and other countries on the UN Security Council, because 142 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:37,640 Russia and China have used their veto to really limit the the 143 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:40,600 scope of some of the bad behaviour that that Britain and 144 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:42,360 the United States have wanted to pursue. 145 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:46,840 On the other hand, Britain and the United, well, Britain 146 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:49,280 doesn't veto anything. Britain only abstains. 147 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:51,320 It doesn't ever vote against anything in the Security 148 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:53,920 Council. That's a policy decision, but 149 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:57,640 the, the United States is quite happy to use this veto And the, 150 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:01,400 the, the, the contrast that I would make here is that Russia 151 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:05,880 and China use their veto to prevent conflict and to prevent 152 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:07,320 war. Britain and the United, well, 153 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:11,160 the United States on Britain's behalf, uses the veto to 154 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:13,520 maintain conflict and maintain war. 155 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:17,000 And, and that is for the last 20 years, that's absolutely the 156 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:20,400 model that has been used. So, you know, there's lots to 157 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:23,720 criticise Russia and China about, but in this respect and 158 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:25,920 and with respect to international law, they have 159 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:28,360 absolutely been on the right side of events. 160 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:30,760 OK, All right. That's interesting. 161 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:35,040 I suppose so there are there are some countries that are playing 162 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:37,280 by the rules, Israel not being I'm. 163 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:40,400 Not going to say they're, they're always playing by the 164 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:44,240 rules, but they're certainly doing a lot better job at it 165 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:46,720 than than than our countries are, yes. 166 00:10:47,560 --> 00:10:52,160 But I mean, so if Israel is not playing by the rules, what does 167 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:55,880 it mean ultimately if South Africa supposedly took them to 168 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:57,160 court? What came of that? 169 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:03,120 Yeah, look, South Africa is, is doing what South Africa can do. 170 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:08,400 The, the, the so called global S is doing what they can do at the 171 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:13,600 end of the day, you know, without the majority support 172 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:18,640 within the UN Security Council, Israel is clearly getting the go 173 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:21,480 ahead to do whatever it likes that that's with the open 174 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:25,800 support of of Britain in the United States and, and, you 175 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:29,240 know, outside of the Security Council of other European 176 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:31,480 countries. That's our problem. 177 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:34,320 We've got to deal with that. And, and of course, this is this 178 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:38,680 is where the system falls down in a sense, because it relies on 179 00:11:39,560 --> 00:11:42,880 everybody's recognition of their role in upholding international 180 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:45,760 law. And, and we are not fulfilling 181 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:48,960 our obligations because partly because our, our societies are 182 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:53,360 completely split on this issue. And but you know, the fact, the 183 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:56,240 fact of the matter is that that increasing numbers of people are 184 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:57,880 recognising what's going on here. 185 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:02,960 Increasing numbers of people are making their, their feelings 186 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:05,280 felt about it. And you know, I was, I was 187 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:10,840 fascinated that if you, if you went to any of the pro Palestine 188 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:17,680 demonstrations in the UK since 7th of October, you generally 189 00:12:17,680 --> 00:12:24,640 saw, you know, immigrant left wing Asian or Middle Eastern 190 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:31,400 faces in the, in the, in the, in the, in the demonstration until 191 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:35,560 the UK banned or prescribed Palestine action. 192 00:12:36,680 --> 00:12:39,840 And whenever the following demonstration happened, which 193 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:43,960 was there to to basically support in support of Palestine 194 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:48,920 action and demand that the UK drop this defining Palestine 195 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:50,440 action as a terrorist organisation. 196 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:53,200 The faces in the in the crowd were quite different. 197 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:55,120 They were white, they were middle class, they were doctors, 198 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:58,480 they were lawyers. This was something that this was 199 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:02,320 a demographic in the UK that was not out on the on the pro 200 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:05,040 Palestine demonstration, at least not significantly out on 201 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:07,840 those demonstrations over the last couple of years. 202 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:11,240 And, and suddenly this what what as soon as the British 203 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:15,200 government was perceived to have taking a step too far in the 204 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:18,280 shutting down of, of freedom of speech and the right to gather 205 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:21,360 and the right to demonstrate and the right to demand that 206 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:24,360 something changed. Then those people came out in 207 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:26,520 support and that. So I think I think there's 208 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:32,720 there's although none of this is actually stopping Israel doing 209 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:35,600 what it's doing. There is massive pressure on 210 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:38,920 Israel at the moment and and that needs to build even 211 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:40,600 further. But you know, as I say, the 212 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:44,160 problem here is the the society is divided on the issue. 213 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:46,880 Yeah. I mean, when you talk about 214 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:50,840 occupation, the immediate response is no, it's the country 215 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:54,680 and multiple countries around the world recognise Israel as a 216 00:13:54,680 --> 00:13:56,000 country. So therefore it's not an 217 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:58,120 occupation. It is now a legitimate country, 218 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:00,960 no? No, no, with the hip Gaza is not 219 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:04,560 part of Israel and and in fact, Israel has built a big, huge, 220 00:14:04,560 --> 00:14:07,120 big wall around it to make sure that it's not part of Israel. 221 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:09,080 The West Bank is not part of Israel either. 222 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:14,680 So it's an occupation in the sense that there are, you know, 223 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:18,680 that that Gaza is a has a for a long time effectively been an 224 00:14:18,680 --> 00:14:21,160 open air prison in the sense that there's a wall around it 225 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:23,400 that people cannot come and go freely. 226 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:26,840 There are watchtowers and regular places with people with 227 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:30,280 guns and, and people with, with at all those guns have been 228 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:33,600 using those guns with impunity. So, you know, you, you began 229 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:36,760 this conversation by talking about a video that you'd seen of 230 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:39,240 children being killed. Well, the point is that this has 231 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:41,680 been going on for a very, very long time. 232 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:47,360 Well, well beyond, further back than the 7th of October. 233 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:50,680 And, you know, no matter what we think about the 7th of October, 234 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:55,920 you know, many, many people, people within Gaza saw that as 235 00:14:55,920 --> 00:15:00,240 being a, a reaction to the types of terrorism. 236 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:03,120 I'm going to use that word in this case that Israel has been 237 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:05,480 perpetrating on Gaza for a long time. 238 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:08,560 It's not the first time that Gaza has been bombed. 239 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:14,680 You know, Israel has used really very unpleasant like white 240 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:17,920 phosphorus bombs, for example, weapon weaponry. 241 00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:21,320 This is actually illegal under international law, but they did 242 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:25,160 it anyway. And, and so, you know, Israel 243 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:28,160 has been behaving this way towards Gaza for a very long 244 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:29,880 time. That's where the occupation is 245 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:34,960 not, not within Israel itself. I got a, a, another comment from 246 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:37,760 somebody part of the same discussion who said, yes, I'm 247 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:42,040 being ignorant because Israel, Mike pulled out. 248 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:46,400 It withdrew from Gaza in 2005 or 2006, you know, and it was the 249 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:49,520 Gazans, Mike, who voted in Hamas. 250 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:53,000 And they must now deal with the consequences of having Hamas as 251 00:15:53,000 --> 00:16:00,160 their government. I think that's a pretty loaded 252 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:02,600 statement. Look, Hamas is 2 things. 253 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:05,960 It's, it's like Sinn Fein IRA, it's, it's two things. 254 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:11,160 It's got a political wing, which is the part of it which runs the 255 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:14,840 the country in a or the, the territory in a sense. 256 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:19,600 And and it has the militia. But Israel never really 257 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:22,280 withdrew, did they? Because they're constantly 258 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:23,840 attacking. And no. 259 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:26,760 And they they controlled the sea space and and the air space too. 260 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:29,440 Precisely. You know, anybody that tries to, 261 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:32,400 I mean, it's, it's often the case that that Gazans who go 262 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:37,560 fishing for food are being attacked by Israel. 263 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:41,760 Israel is constantly attacked or was constantly attacking into 264 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:44,000 Gaza. And, you know, I want to just 265 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:46,960 make it absolutely clear here. I'm not an expert on this. 266 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:51,760 So, so, you know, I'm, I'm giving my thoughts on, on my 267 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:54,040 awareness of it. There are many other people 268 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:58,200 that, that understand the, the, the sort of detail of what has 269 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:00,160 happened over the years much better than I do. 270 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:02,600 So, so, you know, don't take my word for this. 271 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:07,440 Go to those voices. Yes, but you are allowed to have 272 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:10,960 an opinion and I think this is where where people fall apart. 273 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:12,440 They'll go well, have you been there? 274 00:17:13,079 --> 00:17:15,200 Well, you're just following the propaganda line. 275 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:18,800 So I'll quote Al Jazeera. Yes, but that's that's anti 276 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:21,960 Israel propaganda. OK, well what about the point 277 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:23,440 is, is that how do you philtre through? 278 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:26,680 Someone might say yes, but the videos you saw of babies or 279 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:29,960 children being killed, that's propaganda to make you hate 280 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:32,160 Israel. Ultimately, you're sitting now 281 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:36,320 with the situation, Mike, of the fog of war propaganda. 282 00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:40,240 Yeah, but it's not a war. So, so, so right. 283 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:46,320 I have look this this conflict, this conflict, this occupation, 284 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:51,720 this is something very different to anything else that's going on 285 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:55,040 in the world. And the reason for that and the 286 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:59,800 reason that I really have trouble with people that support 287 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:04,520 Israel's actions here, is it not in all cases, but more often 288 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:09,280 than not, the reason they support it is because of some 289 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:13,720 kind of religious or ideological belief in Israel as being 290 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:16,480 something that existed in biblical times. 291 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:19,520 And that this is the modern iteration of that. 292 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:25,480 And therefore the chosen people, but the chosen country and so 293 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:28,080 on. And, and therefore it has the 294 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:30,600 right to do whatever it likes because God said so. 295 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:33,880 And that, that that is often the view of, of people. 296 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:37,400 And I'm have a real problem with, with people that call 297 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:41,040 themselves Christians or call themselves Jews, who are, you 298 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:46,360 know, who are religious and, and believe in a God and believe in 299 00:18:46,360 --> 00:18:49,440 the 10 commandments and so on. And are prepared to settle that 300 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:52,920 aside because of some notion that they have in their own 301 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:57,080 minds that that this nation state, which is nothing whatever 302 00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:01,320 to do with anything that happened historically, is it 303 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:04,800 somehow represents what happened historically and therefore has 304 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:07,840 the right to treat human beings like animals. 305 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:12,920 And this is really something which is beyond the pale as far 306 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:15,040 as I'm concerned. We've got to look at this 307 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:18,000 conflict objectively. We've got to consider that the 308 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:20,560 people that are on the receiving end of the of the bullets, the 309 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:26,080 bombs are, you know, human beings and they should be. 310 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:30,120 They have rights and Israel does not have rights in this case. 311 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:34,400 So, you know, we know also that there's that aside from all of 312 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:37,240 that thing that that behind what's going on here is this 313 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:42,560 this big geopolitical game for control of West, Southwest Asia. 314 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:48,160 And and also now with Trump, we've got this third element of 315 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:52,400 the so called Trumps Riviera where he's basically looking at 316 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:57,000 this as some fantastic property deal, some fast, fantastic, you 317 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:01,480 know, financial opportunity that he can take a turn turn Gaza 318 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:05,760 into some kind of. Dubai equivalent and and just 319 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:09,360 basically kick, kick the the people that have lived there out 320 00:20:09,360 --> 00:20:13,320 of that area and throw them into the desert and say off you go 321 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:16,400 look after yourselves. You know they're they're this is 322 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:18,520 this thing is wrong in so many levels. 323 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:20,440 It's unbelievable. And and the people that are pro 324 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:24,000 Israel I think need to take a step back and and consider this. 325 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:26,200 Yeah. Did you see that Breitbart 326 00:20:26,360 --> 00:20:29,880 article where it's said that Trump has made a suggestion of 327 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:34,240 removing everybody from Gaza for about 10 years, like just about 328 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:37,440 10 years, so they can rebuild it and make it into some sort of 329 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:41,520 Singapore, Hong Kong type super advanced country? 330 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:43,520 No. No, they're not going to make it 331 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:46,400 into a Singapore, Hong Kong type super advanced country. 332 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:49,600 They're going to make it into. They're going to make it into a 333 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:52,200 playground for the rich and the powerful. 334 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:55,800 And there's no, there is not one single person that's currently 335 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:59,400 residing there that's still alive, that is going to get back 336 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:03,120 there after this job is done right, That this, this is a lie. 337 00:21:03,120 --> 00:21:06,720 Now we've got to remember who created this, this plan. 338 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:11,200 And you know, it was a number of organisations, but the Tony 339 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:13,480 Blair Institute was absolutely involved in this. 340 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:18,320 And so you know that but, and this is something that Trump is 341 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:23,480 clearly very, very keen to, to get involved with because he's a 342 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:27,040 property dealer at the end of the day. 343 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:30,360 And this is, this is kept well. Well, there's some debate about 344 00:21:30,360 --> 00:21:33,920 that and how much money is actually made successfully on 345 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:38,320 these property deals. But nonetheless, you know, he, 346 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:40,600 he clearly sees this as a massive opportunity. 347 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:44,600 And if it wasn't for these, you know, silly poor people that 348 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:47,560 need to get up, get the hell out of the way, you know, it's, it's 349 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:51,040 despicable. Yeah, I was thinking more 350 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:56,000 philosophically, Mike, how, how do you actually engage in this 351 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,720 kind of conversation? Because it's, it's a forever 352 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:00,960 debate, right? It's always going to be 353 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:02,320 polarised. It's black and white, it's 354 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:03,800 binary. That's it, right. 355 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:06,960 You, I'm, I'm not a Jew, I'm not an Arab, right. 356 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:09,760 So I don't actually have a dog in that fight pretty much the 357 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:15,000 same as you, but I do I do feel that innocent people. 358 00:22:15,120 --> 00:22:16,840 No, I look, I'm going to interrupt you there 'cause I 359 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:18,680 think you do have a dog in this fight. 360 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:21,760 I think that anybody that considers themselves a human 361 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:25,000 being has a dog in this fight because, because, because at the 362 00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:27,440 end of the day is basic morality. 363 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:33,000 And do we believe that some the state has the right to or people 364 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:34,320 have the right to kill each other? 365 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:40,440 We do in certain circumstances. This is defined as we've already 366 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:43,120 talked about in this conversation, if you are 367 00:22:43,360 --> 00:22:46,560 suffering oppression as a result of an occupation they have you 368 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:48,240 have the right to armed resistance. 369 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:49,960 Everybody agrees that that's correct. 370 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:54,520 We also agree in all the various international lodge and even 371 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:58,040 conventions all the rest. We also agree that Israel has no 372 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:01,880 right to do what it's doing. And that's written down in black 373 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:06,480 and white in principle right now, the fact that, that, that 374 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:10,320 our governments are prepared. Well, I'm not, I shouldn't say 375 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:12,360 our governments because because your government hasn't done 376 00:23:12,360 --> 00:23:13,600 this. Your government has attempted 377 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,480 to, to take this situation to the International Criminal 378 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,520 Court. But my government, the United 379 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:22,480 States government, EU governments have decided that 380 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:27,760 that international law and, and basic human rights should be set 381 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:33,120 aside in this case. And you know that, that there's 382 00:23:33,120 --> 00:23:36,440 nothing else to say here, that that this is there, there, there 383 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:40,520 are basic principles in place that we are choosing to ignore. 384 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:47,560 And that, that aside from from what you think about is, you 385 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:52,920 know, Israel's right to exist as a, as a state, as an entity, no 386 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:56,680 matter what you think about that, that should be where this 387 00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:00,960 conversation comes back to. What I was going to ask you is 388 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:05,160 how do you actually engage because this is so heated, it's 389 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:07,880 so polarised. I just yesterday I chatted to 390 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:12,200 somebody and they are vigilant, militant in their response. 391 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,440 Israel is defending itself. It doesn't want to be wiped off 392 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:20,040 the face of Earth, Mike. Yes. 393 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:22,120 How do you, how do you engage with it? 394 00:24:22,120 --> 00:24:24,520 You can't engage with that because that there's something 395 00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:28,280 ideological about that position. There's something fundamentally 396 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:32,640 there's something else going on because yes, it is absolutely 397 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:34,800 wrong. It's it's, it's wrong because 398 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:38,960 what threat at the end of the day to the existence? 399 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:41,480 Now, we're not talking about individual killings or 400 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:46,680 individual acts here. What that person was talking 401 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:49,080 about is the existence of Israel. 402 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:56,480 Now, what possible thing can Hamas do to affect the existence 403 00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:58,240 of Israel? Absolutely nothing. 404 00:24:58,240 --> 00:24:59,720 They don't have the weaponry for it. 405 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:05,120 Now, if if you're saying that Hamas is supported by Iran and 406 00:25:05,120 --> 00:25:09,120 that Iran has the capability of dealing with Israel, that is 407 00:25:09,120 --> 00:25:12,640 true. But I would like to somebody to 408 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:13,480 point. Out to be. 409 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:17,400 Well, I'd like somebody to point out to me an example of when 410 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:22,560 Iran proactively attacked Israel without having been attacked 411 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:27,400 first. Now the issue of Iran, Israel 412 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:32,200 relations relations is, is something which is for the 413 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:34,960 international community. It's not, it's not an open 414 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:42,120 conflict at the moment, but Iran is and other places are. 415 00:25:42,120 --> 00:25:45,000 I mean, obviously Hamas is getting it's, it's limited 416 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:49,400 weaponry from somewhere. And so I presume, I don't know 417 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:51,840 for a fact, but I presume that Iran has something to do with 418 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:56,000 that. I don't see that that is somehow 419 00:25:56,200 --> 00:26:00,720 an existential threat to Israel because Iran is not providing 420 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:05,840 Hamas with nuclear bombs, you know, So Israel is a nuclear 421 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:11,120 armed state. It has every piece of Western 422 00:26:11,120 --> 00:26:16,040 built technological killing hardware the the available to it 423 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:19,600 that it could possibly ask for. It seems to have unlimited 424 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:22,960 supplies of it. Whatever Hamas has has to be 425 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:25,600 smuggled into the country under the nose of of Israel. 426 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:31,440 And therefore, you know what, what possible existential threat 427 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:34,000 can Hamas be? It is completely irrational. 428 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,760 It's ridiculous position for anybody to take and and it's 429 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:41,120 just justification for brutality and murder. 430 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,400 While you were talking, I got a message from Vanessa Bailey 431 00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:49,520 regarding her disappointment in the BRICS countries around Gaza. 432 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:53,000 And in a previous discussion I had with Vanessa, she also 433 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:57,480 expressed a disappointment in the Arab countries that does. 434 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:00,200 They just don't seem to care. What do you think is going on? 435 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:08,400 I think that that I mean, that's such a big that's about such a 436 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,440 big question. If it take the the Arab look, I 437 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:17,000 think that any country who is, who thinks that they can in any 438 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:20,800 way negotiate with the West or or behave in a certain way 439 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:24,600 because actually they're scared of the West. 440 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:29,040 You know, if so, Arab countries want to stay in bed with 441 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:33,600 Britain, the United States for their, you know, for their own 442 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:37,360 ends because for no other reason, perhaps. 443 00:27:37,360 --> 00:27:39,360 I mean, I don't know what's in their minds, but I'm just 444 00:27:39,360 --> 00:27:41,840 speculating here. They're, they're looking at the, 445 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,120 the behaviour of Britain and the United States over the last 446 00:27:44,120 --> 00:27:46,640 40-50 years and they're saying, well, we don't want to be on the 447 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:48,880 receiving end of that. So we've got to be their 448 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,480 friends. I, I can see why that would be 449 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:55,560 as a thought process that would go through anybody's head. 450 00:27:56,520 --> 00:28:00,320 I, I think that, I think it's more than economic. 451 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:03,280 I, I think that, that, you know, Britain and Britain, the United 452 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:07,320 States, the West has demonstrated A willingness to 453 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:14,080 bomb the crap out of a country for the sake of regime change 454 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:16,920 because they didn't like the, the cut of, of a particular 455 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,200 leader's jib. You know, if we look at Iraq, we 456 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:23,080 look at Syria, we look at Libya, you know, this, the, the, the 457 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,000 demonstration has been made time after time after time. 458 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:29,800 And each time these things happened, it was under very 459 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:33,320 questionable international law situation. 460 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:37,880 So, so we have the West has demonstrated time and again that 461 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:40,760 it's willing to set aside international law for its own 462 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:45,240 geopolitical ends. And so any country in the, in 463 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:50,560 Southwest Asia, Arab countries are looking at this and, and you 464 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:52,880 know, I would say they're, they're looking at the world 465 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:56,720 with some nervousness and, and they're attempting to stay in 466 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,440 certain people's good books. I, I think that's not the right 467 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:05,680 approach personally. Now, As for the bricks, again, 468 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:11,840 we're looking at a situation where people are still playing 469 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:15,520 geopolitical games. They're still wanting to have 470 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,880 influence in certain areas. And there there's massive 471 00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:24,680 competition between, in Southwest Asia, between Belton 472 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:28,600 Road and other so called economic corridors, which are 473 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:31,560 more aligned with, with, you know, ideas for economic 474 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:35,040 corridors which are more aligned with, with Western countries. 475 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:40,240 And so, you know, I'd, I completely understand Vanessa's 476 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:47,360 position on this and agree with it, but there isn't really a but 477 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:49,800 here. The, the reason for it, I think 478 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:53,960 is, is, is because of the, the, for the reasons we've just 479 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:55,800 discussed for, for geopolitical reasons. 480 00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,520 And, and, you know, at the end of the day, that's, that's 481 00:29:58,520 --> 00:29:59,920 something that, that needs to change. 482 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,360 You know, in the last few days we've had the, the, uh, 483 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:07,880 Shanghai, uh, corporation organisation, uh, meeting, we've 484 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:13,280 had Modi shaking hands with Xi Jinping for the first time and 485 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:16,760 basically saying, well, we appreciate that there's been a 486 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:19,640 border conflict between India and China, but, but we're going 487 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:23,400 to set that aside and, and, and build something together. 488 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:28,840 We had for the commemoration of the, the defeat of Japan in the 489 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:33,320 Second World War, Putin and and Kim Jong Un. 490 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:39,160 So, you know, China has has clearly is clearly hoping that 491 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,840 North Korea is going to come back into the fold as it were 492 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:48,560 and not be such a pariah state. You know the the point. 493 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:50,560 Here is Yeah, sorry. Go on. 494 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:53,760 Yeah, no, no, you why? Tell us why you're laughing. 495 00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:58,440 Because North Korea is like, it's this, it's this weird. 496 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:01,840 It's just this weird scenario. It's like a situation. 497 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:03,720 It's not even a country. I don't know what, I don't know 498 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:05,880 what's going on. I know nothing about North. 499 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:07,960 Korea, I'm going to, I'm going to say something different 500 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,240 there. I have massive respect for North 501 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:12,400 Korea right now. I'm not particularly, I don't 502 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,080 have massive respect for its political system. 503 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:19,280 But the fact of the matter is that North Korea took a decision 504 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:23,680 that it was not going to put capitulate to Western demands 505 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:25,280 that it behaved in a certain way. 506 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,480 And North Korea has absolutely suffered. 507 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:31,800 It has absolutely suffered as a result. 508 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:35,880 They are extremely poor. And like I say, I'm not going 509 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:41,160 to, I'm not going to say that I'm any kind of a fan of of Kim 510 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:44,520 Jong Un or his father or the way that that country is governed 511 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:48,400 internally. But the fact that they basically 512 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:54,120 stuck 2 fingers up at the West and said you do you, you run 513 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:56,320 your sanctions regime, you do whatever you like. 514 00:31:56,320 --> 00:32:01,040 We are not, we are not going to become your your sort of puppets 515 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:03,320 in the world. I think that's got to be 516 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:05,480 respected. It'd be great if many more 517 00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:09,360 countries did that. But but you know, coming back to 518 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:14,440 the, to the Russia, China thing and Israel, yeah, they, I think 519 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:20,400 they, if they are going to at least use the language of, of 520 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:24,080 saying we stand for international law and we want a 521 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:26,800 level playing field and we want win, win and all these kinds of 522 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:30,440 things. They, they need to be much 523 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:33,520 stronger on taking a position over Israel's behaviour. 524 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:35,840 There's no question about that in my, in my mind. 525 00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:38,760 But in in the meantime, as I say, there's lots of positives 526 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:41,320 going on in that part of the world as well. 527 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:47,120 Mike, you were talking earlier about the problems arising from 528 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:49,760 being ideologically driven around this sort of thing named 529 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:53,520 pro Israel or or anti Palestine or whatever it might be. 530 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:59,160 But if if any of the neighbouring Arab countries like 531 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:01,840 the Gulf States or whatever, that all the countries from the 532 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:06,600 Levant or whatever, if they got involved, would that not also be 533 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:10,240 an ideological imposition of sorts? 534 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:16,080 No, no, I was talking about people in in the West who 535 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:21,000 support Israel are doing so often from an ideological 536 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:25,800 standpoint and therefore willing to ignore or even in some cases 537 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:30,920 support brutality. Not because they think it's not 538 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:33,400 because they think that in and of itself it's the right thing 539 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:38,400 to do, but because because they think that for biblical reasons, 540 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:42,160 Israel has the right to do this. And, and I think, I think when 541 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:45,280 you set aside your principles on that basis, then you're on a 542 00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:48,280 slippery slope to a bad place. No, no, no. 543 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:49,960 Yeah, sorry. You're correct. 544 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:54,920 What I was asking is, do you think that I being ideological 545 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:57,240 is not always a bad thing? It's basically what I'm asking 546 00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:00,480 because if you if you're ideological for principled 547 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:02,040 reasons, then it's then it's fine. 548 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:08,560 Like let's say, let's say. As long as it's not 549 00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:11,560 hypocritical. I mean right if you know the. 550 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:12,320 Basis Egypt. Egypt. 551 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:13,440 Let's say no. Egypt. 552 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:14,440 No, but no. Hold on a second. 553 00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:17,679 No, hold on a second, Jerm. The basis of Christian and 554 00:34:17,679 --> 00:34:21,679 Jewish ideology is the 10 commandments. 555 00:34:22,159 --> 00:34:25,440 The 10 commandments, depending how you interpret it. 556 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:28,960 Some say that the that the relevant commandment is thou 557 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:32,120 shalt not kill. Others say it's thou shalt not 558 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:37,239 murder again, we're back to definitions and and whether 559 00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:40,280 whether Israel's activity is murder or not. 560 00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:45,080 And but the fact of the matter is, and I think if you're being 561 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,800 objective about it, that particular commandment is 562 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:52,679 without question being very severely challenged by what's 563 00:34:52,679 --> 00:34:56,960 going on here. And the fact that people, Jews 564 00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:01,320 and Christians are prepared to set aside that commandment, 565 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:03,600 which is supposed to be the absolute foundation of their 566 00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:08,040 entire ideology for the sake of political expediency. 567 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:11,600 Is, is that's, that's that's the issue here. 568 00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:20,000 Now I would suggest that that that religious wars, wars based 569 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,720 on ideology are never good. And that is something that that 570 00:35:23,720 --> 00:35:28,640 is a you know, since the fall of the Roman Empire until pretty 571 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:33,000 much the modern day religious wars have been a feature big and 572 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:35,920 small. Even where I grew up with it was 573 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:40,920 a feature for 30 years. So, you know, I think it is, I 574 00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:44,240 think religious wars are really the stupidest type of war that 575 00:35:44,240 --> 00:35:47,480 you can possibly have because it's, it's for no other reason 576 00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:50,360 than than what you believe. I mean, for goodness sake, it's 577 00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:52,960 not even a war over water or resources. 578 00:35:53,240 --> 00:35:56,320 It's a war over ideology. And this is the most ridiculous 579 00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:00,320 excuse for killing people that I can possibly imagine. 580 00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:03,080 So I know I had to. So to answer your question, I 581 00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:07,520 don't believe there's ever a a A use for an ideological 582 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:11,480 justification or I don't think there's ever a justification 583 00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:19,200 ideologically for war. An interesting converse 584 00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:23,400 consequence of this whole thing is that it's created also 585 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:29,320 extreme antagonism and animosity towards Jews. 586 00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:38,120 I think that that is, I'm not going to say the fault, but 587 00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:43,120 it's, it's, it's the, the Jews are their own worst enemy in 588 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:48,400 this case. Because, because although there 589 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:53,040 are significant numbers of Jews who, who are openly anti Zionist 590 00:36:53,320 --> 00:37:00,880 and some real really thoughtful people like Gilad Atzman, for 591 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:04,240 example, who, who are making have been making this argument 592 00:37:04,240 --> 00:37:07,120 for a very long time, you know, an anti Zionist argument for a 593 00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:10,880 very long time. Yes. 594 00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:14,280 Well, indeed, there are a number of of really excellent voices on 595 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:17,000 this. The the fact of the matter is 596 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:26,320 that that the, the use of Jewish money and the Zionist lobby as 597 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:32,400 it's described to shut down any criticism on the basis that anti 598 00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:37,520 Zionism or anti Israel sentiment is somehow anti Jewish sentiment 599 00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:40,840 is really problematic. It's it's, it's beyond 600 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:42,320 problematic. It's just, it's, it's 601 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:45,480 reprehensible. And, and of course the, the 602 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:50,280 Jewish community themselves kind of fall for this narrative and, 603 00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:55,520 and automatically feel that that an attack on, on the behaviour 604 00:37:55,520 --> 00:38:00,200 of, of one particular political ideology is an attack on them, 605 00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:07,360 when in fact it's not. Now, I'm, I absolutely think 606 00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:11,160 that anybody that throws stones at a synagogue on the basis of 607 00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:14,160 what's going on in Israel, I think that that's ridiculous. 608 00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:20,360 There are other ways to to to give opposition to what's going 609 00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:22,280 on. Stop buying products that are 610 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:27,720 that are, you know, produced in Israel or or connected to Israel 611 00:38:27,720 --> 00:38:32,040 in some way. Certainly absolutely support the 612 00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:37,240 idea of protest against anybody that's manufacturing arms for 613 00:38:37,240 --> 00:38:39,200 Israel or shipping arms for Israel. 614 00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:46,440 I'm totally in support of anybody that verbally criticises 615 00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:50,840 Zionism or Israel's and certainly their right to make 616 00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:54,840 those criticisms. But yeah, I mean, I don't see 617 00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:58,800 that, that, you know, violence against the person, any person 618 00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:01,720 is anything other than utterly hypocritical. 619 00:39:01,720 --> 00:39:04,160 You know, if we're going to criticise Israel for what it's 620 00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:08,680 doing, it's, it seems to be ridiculous to go around and beat 621 00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:12,280 up, you know, the nearest Jewish person that you can find. 622 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:15,480 This is this is beyond hypocritical. 623 00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:24,160 I wonder if this is just a never ending a never ending debate, 624 00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:25,760 no? I don't think it's AI, don't 625 00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:27,080 think it's a never ending debate. 626 00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:30,080 I think it appears never ending because at this point in time 627 00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:32,920 the Zionist lobby is so powerful. 628 00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:36,520 But I think that is absolutely changing and I think that that 629 00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:41,680 that October the 7th has has done a lot to change that. 630 00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:44,520 Now, the, the cost for the Palestinians has been 631 00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:49,080 horrendous, but I think that the tide is without question, the 632 00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:52,240 tide is turning. And the fact that we are having 633 00:39:52,240 --> 00:39:59,040 this conversation, I, I'm absolutely optimistic on the 634 00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:01,560 long term basis. I'm utterly pessimistic on a 635 00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:06,280 short term basis because I think that that, that a lot, a lot 636 00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:09,120 more people are going to have to pay the ultimate cost before, 637 00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:13,040 before that situation changes. I mean, I think, I think that, 638 00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:14,600 you know, the brutality that's on. 639 00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:19,200 That's on show here is, is beyond anything that that can be 640 00:40:19,240 --> 00:40:22,720 possibly justified. But you know, but so many are 641 00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:27,760 are dying on on a daily basis that that, you know, by the time 642 00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:32,480 that that this opposition builds to a point where where it can't 643 00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:35,680 happen anymore, there's going to be significant further loss. 644 00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:38,080 And I think that is that's where I'm pessimistic. 645 00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:41,880 I'm optimistic in the end because I think that that you 646 00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:46,240 know, that, that, that what is being done is just is, is so 647 00:40:46,240 --> 00:40:48,440 reprehensible. It can't be ignored on a long 648 00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:50,800 term basis. And, and ultimately it's going 649 00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:55,120 to, it's going to, I think see the end of Israel as a state. 650 00:40:55,240 --> 00:41:00,000 I think Israel is, is very close to, to, I think their own 651 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:01,960 behaviour is the existential threat here. 652 00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:05,440 Not, not, not anything that's coming from outside. 653 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,320 That's a good point. Do you reckon they'll make 100 654 00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:10,920 years? No, not. 655 00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:15,840 Not if they continue this policy and and and you know, as I 656 00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:18,120 honestly think not if they continue this policy. 657 00:41:19,240 --> 00:41:22,640 So, you know, we we all we always have to remember that 658 00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:27,360 that Israel as a state, as an entity is a creation of Britain 659 00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:33,520 and it it was imposed on the region and it was imposed on the 660 00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:35,920 region. We understand why it was imposed 661 00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:37,880 on the region for geopolitical reasons. 662 00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:44,760 And it would be really nice if, if the Jewish community as a 663 00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:49,160 whole recognised that they were pawns in this game as much as 664 00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:50,720 the Arabs are pawns in this game. 665 00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:56,080 And, and I think part of the problem here is that that we are 666 00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:01,960 ordinary people of whatever colour, creed and and so on, are 667 00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:04,640 not recognising what's going on here. 668 00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:07,040 We're, we're absolutely determined to fight with each 669 00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:09,760 other. We're due against Muslim, Muslim 670 00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:13,920 against Christian, Christian against whatever we, we are 671 00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:16,440 determined to fight. We're just, we are continually 672 00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:19,760 played by global elites. And this is just another one of 673 00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:24,440 those games. And, and I, I, I use the word 674 00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:29,240 game there because for them it is a game for us. 675 00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:32,200 It's of course, it's much more serious when we're on the 676 00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:35,760 receiving end of these games. You know, they, they used to 677 00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:41,200 call it the great game, the whole geopolitical thing and for 678 00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:44,840 them it is just a game. We've got to start recognising 679 00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:49,040 who the real enemy is and, and start recognising that we are 680 00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:53,120 many and they are few. And as Shelly said, we need to 681 00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:56,880 rise like lions. I've often said that our enemies 682 00:42:56,880 --> 00:43:00,160 are not those to our left and right, but those who are above 683 00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:00,520 us. I. 684 00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:04,600 Mean this that that is such a great point because because 685 00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:08,520 those to our left and right are on are on our left and right 686 00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:12,880 because they've because they and we have fallen for this paradigm 687 00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:16,000 that we're somehow you know that that although we've got 688 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:18,840 different views that suddenly makes us somehow enemies and 689 00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:22,160 therefore we've got to fight each other this this whole 690 00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:25,840 people on my left and my right thing is something which has 691 00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:29,360 been done to us it's it's. That's a good point, Mike. 692 00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:30,960 Sorry, Yeah, I'm just jumping in there. 693 00:43:31,240 --> 00:43:36,400 The the the the whole left right dichotomy has caused so many 694 00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:40,000 issues. Yeah, because we fall for it 695 00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:44,040 every time, you know? It's all about left wing or 696 00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:46,600 right wing this. Yeah. 697 00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:49,600 Well, well, look, the first step in my opinion, the first step to 698 00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:55,720 to to objectivity here is to recognise that that left and 699 00:43:55,720 --> 00:44:00,000 right is not a a straight line where you've got an extreme left 700 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:01,680 on one side, an extreme right on the on. 701 00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:05,240 When you actually look at if you, if you look at what are 702 00:44:05,240 --> 00:44:09,560 considered extreme left and extreme right regimes in the 703 00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:14,360 last in history and we look at the behaviour of the those 704 00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:18,640 regimes, you show me, you know, a fund a significant difference 705 00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:23,160 in, in those regimes, whether they're extreme left or extreme 706 00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:25,840 right. So we should be looking at this 707 00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:30,160 so called left right spectrum as a circle with, with the extremes 708 00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:37,600 joining because because there's very little to, to very little 709 00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:40,600 difference to be seen in, in extreme left wing and extreme 710 00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:43,440 right wing regimes that their behaviour is the same. 711 00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:48,920 So, so we're not on a straight line and and we should, we 712 00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:52,000 should recognise that being at the extremes is not necessarily 713 00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:53,840 where we want to be. Yeah. 714 00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:57,680 But Mike, the human condition, unfortunately, is such that you 715 00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:01,520 have somebody like Donald Trump comes in and he's a bit of a pot 716 00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:04,520 piper. He's very likeable in many ways, 717 00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:08,600 which is what a populist does. He's he's good at being 718 00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:11,200 likeable. And suddenly he brings millions 719 00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:13,840 and millions and millions of people back into the system, 720 00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:16,680 back into that, that binary way of thinking. 721 00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:21,680 Which is why we're doomed to repeat this kind of situation 722 00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:24,240 until we grow up. It's really that simple in my 723 00:45:24,240 --> 00:45:29,360 mind. Well, on that note, but I mean 724 00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:34,280 like I'm trying to, I'm still trying to establish, I know I 725 00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:37,600 asked you this earlier, but I'm still stuck on this because I've 726 00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:41,200 recently had this conversation with somebody close to me and I 727 00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:42,960 don't know how to engage. I just don't know. 728 00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:45,920 Do what do you do? Do you just be quiet and smile 729 00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:50,040 and not or like I'm I'm trying to figure out because it always 730 00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:53,840 becomes a heated argument and that goes no way. 731 00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:57,520 Right. So, so well, this, this all this 732 00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:01,760 is a a good point. This all depends on your view of 733 00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:05,520 conversations like that. So I'm good to say to you that 734 00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:11,200 there are times where I, in a gathering, for example, I hear 735 00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:14,960 somebody saying something which is just so absolutely wrong. 736 00:46:15,720 --> 00:46:18,440 And I know that it's wrong. And there are times actually, 737 00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:21,440 I'm thinking, well, how do I, how do I communicate with this 738 00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:23,040 person? And I actually don't know. 739 00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:26,720 And so I stay silent and I don't know how to communicate with 740 00:46:26,720 --> 00:46:29,560 that person. That's, that's an opportunity 741 00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:32,480 for me to go away and consider, well, the next time that 742 00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:34,880 situation arises, how am I going to deal with it? 743 00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:37,440 How am I going to? And, and so that helps me learn 744 00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:42,040 the same with the heated conversations because inevitably 745 00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:46,520 there's going to be positions taken on either side of the 746 00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:49,840 conversation that the other person doesn't know how to 747 00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:54,440 respond to or doesn't have a response to other than to shout 748 00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:56,680 a bit louder. And of course, once you start 749 00:46:56,680 --> 00:46:59,000 shouting a bit louder, then you've you've effectively lost 750 00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:03,320 the argument at that point. These are opportunities because 751 00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:09,920 you know, what that says is that I have not considered that that 752 00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:12,800 point before. And so I haven't got an answer 753 00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:14,920 for it. And if I haven't got an answer 754 00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:16,880 for something, then I've got to find an answer for it. 755 00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:19,840 So, so that's a time to start thinking about, about that 756 00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:23,760 particular point. And, and you know, in that's in 757 00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:27,840 the process of doing that, if you do that, you're, you're 758 00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:30,160 potentially adjusting your own position as well. 759 00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:34,360 Because as I've said this many, many times, my view is, and I 760 00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:39,160 try to do this as much as I can, my, my position on anything is 761 00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:41,840 not fixed because I may not have all the evidence. 762 00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:45,600 So I've drawn A conclusion, I've made an analysis, but, but it's 763 00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:48,600 not actually a conclusion in the sense that it can't be changed. 764 00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:53,200 So, you know, I, I think we should be always challenging our 765 00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:59,320 own positions and our own precepts and, and, and the first 766 00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:01,640 person that we should be arguing with is ourselves. 767 00:48:02,720 --> 00:48:05,480 But these these conversations we have with other people where 768 00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:08,000 we're left in exactly the situation you described, Jerm, 769 00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:13,440 are conversations that we should be absolutely enthusiastic about 770 00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:19,720 taking part in because they help us hone our our own skills and 771 00:48:19,720 --> 00:48:22,800 our own arguments. Sharpening the sword? 772 00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:29,680 Absolutely, Mike. OK, let's come in for a landing. 773 00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:41,680 I guess the moral of the story is A to to try not take sides 774 00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:45,200 other than that of what what it means to be human. 775 00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:47,200 That's what that's your initial point. 776 00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:55,040 And then also to try and not get into a heated debate with 777 00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:59,080 somebody unless you're able to objectively as much as possible, 778 00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:03,760 or rationally think about your own position and hold up the 779 00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:08,040 mirror and challenge yourself at the same time so that you're 780 00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:10,320 able to engage in a meaningful way, right? 781 00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:13,520 Well, I mean, I'm not going to say don't, I'm not ever going to 782 00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:16,160 say don't get involved in that. I mean, I, I actually would say 783 00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:18,880 do get involved in those arguments because that's that's, 784 00:49:19,240 --> 00:49:23,840 that helps, as I say, that helps hone your, your own position. 785 00:49:23,840 --> 00:49:30,200 But yeah, I mean, I appreciate that that it's very, very 786 00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:34,240 difficult to take an objective view on what's going on with 787 00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:37,200 with some issues. But but look, the bottom line is 788 00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:44,640 this germ the the countries in Southwest Asia, in North Africa, 789 00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:49,040 in the Horn of Africa in state. Hang on, hang on, hang on, hang 790 00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:50,120 on. Sorry, sorry, sorry. 791 00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:52,640 Before you go any further, Southwest Asia is an interesting 792 00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:54,880 term. A lot of people will say Gulf 793 00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:56,040 States. That's what you're referring to, 794 00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:58,520 right? No, I'm referring to the whole 795 00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:03,200 Middle East region, which may include the Gulf states. 796 00:50:03,720 --> 00:50:08,560 But but the what I was going to say there, what was I going to 797 00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:10,360 say there? I'm so sorry. 798 00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:12,920 I shouldn't have broken your train of thought, but it's that. 799 00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:15,880 But that's an interesting idea, The Southwest Asia aspect, being 800 00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:18,280 part of the Gulf states, that's something I didn't think about 801 00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:23,000 until only a few months ago. Yeah, yes, sorry. 802 00:50:23,440 --> 00:50:27,120 You, you, You said North Africa. Oh yeah, yeah, right, right. 803 00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:33,440 My point was going to be if if we look objectively and 804 00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:39,560 carefully at what's happened in those countries, at what's going 805 00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:41,960 on in Sudan, I mean the the Sudan is another conflict which 806 00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:44,840 is, which is basically flying under the radar at the moment. 807 00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:53,440 We find tactics being used there by foreign influence, Britain, 808 00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:56,760 the United States, EU, France, Germany, whatever it happens to 809 00:50:56,760 --> 00:51:02,920 be, tactics being used to divide societies there which are 810 00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:08,080 resulting in real physical combat, conflict and real death, 811 00:51:08,080 --> 00:51:16,040 destruction, suffering, hunger. We need to, with respect to 812 00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:21,000 Israel, Palestine and and Iran, and in fact the region as a 813 00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:24,680 whole, we need, one of the things we absolutely need to do 814 00:51:25,240 --> 00:51:29,320 is to take a step back, start looking at it objectively, look 815 00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:32,200 at the tactics that are being used there. 816 00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:37,080 And then make a comparison to what's going on in our own 817 00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:40,840 countries with respect to immigration and the way that we 818 00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:45,000 are being manipulated over around that narrative and how 819 00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:49,120 close we already are to open civil conflict. 820 00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:51,840 Not going to go as far as saying civil war at this point, but I 821 00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:55,680 don't think it's too far away. This country, European 822 00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:58,560 countries, even the United States in some way, some ways 823 00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:00,840 are at boiling point on this issue. 824 00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:06,120 And that has been, that is a created situation using very 825 00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:09,920 similar tactics to have been used in the Middle East slash 826 00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:15,160 Southwest Asia. We got to start recognising the 827 00:52:15,160 --> 00:52:19,560 symptoms and trying to decide who what the cause of those 828 00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:23,600 symptoms actually is. Otherwise we're going to find 829 00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:26,640 ourselves in exactly the same position that those people are 830 00:52:26,640 --> 00:52:29,000 in. And that this is, you know, the, 831 00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:35,920 the old, it's a cliche. I know that the old saying, you 832 00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:37,920 know, if you're unfamiliar with history, you're dimmed to repeat 833 00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:40,320 it. This is really important. 834 00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:43,320 I think one of the things that people need to do is to look 835 00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:51,280 carefully at at how empires manage themselves and see the 836 00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:53,200 parallels to what's going on today. 837 00:52:55,040 --> 00:53:01,200 OK Mike from my half assed studio, I'll catch you. 838 00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:02,320 I'll catch up with you next week.