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Good afternoon and welcome to 
all of our UK column listeners. 

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Today is Saturday the 9th of 
December. 

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It's 4:15 in the afternoon and 
my goodness, we've just had an 

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incredible clap of Thunder, huge
downpouring, lots of torrential 

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rain. 
Luckily it's eased off, but I 

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know that the local river is a 
raging torrent. 

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The farmers fields are all 
flooded and no doubt this will 

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signal a drought for 2024. 
Maybe that's a bit cynical. 

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We will see. 
Now I'm delighted to have Debbie

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Evans with me this afternoon. 
I've worked together with Debbie

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for a very long time in the UK 
column and she's done some 

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really fantastic work. 
But I decided that over the 

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Christmas period, I wanted to 
put out some interviews with 

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women, real women, adult females
that have stood up to be 

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counted. 
And they're not pulling any 

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punches. 
They're not happy with what's 

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going on. 
And so Debbie is one of the 

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ladies who's agreed to be 
interviewed by me. 

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And I'm calling these women 
gutsy women. 

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So that's your introduction. 
Debbie, welcome. 

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Oh. 
Thank you very much indeed for 

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that, Brian. 
I think my children actually 

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call me Gobby Granny because I I
don't think sometimes they they 

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wince because I do go down some 
rabbit holes that other people 

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might not want to. 
But it's just ironic, isn't it, 

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that as we're sitting here and 
the rain is absolutely pouring 

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down, it was actually floods 
that introduced us in a way. 

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And one of the campaigns that 
I've been on for the last 20 

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years is, is one of water and 
sewage. 

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And I'm sure we'll come on to 
that. 

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But that's one of my feisty, my 
feisty personality traits, if 

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you like, I'm I'm a bit like a a
terrier, and once I'm on a 

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mission, I tend not to let go. 
OK, well maybe we can change 

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events here, because I I was 
thinking about the title. 

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I went for Gutsy women, but do 
you think it should be feisty 

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women? 
I knew it couldn't be women with

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balls because that would take us
into very difficult transgender,

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transgender territory. 
So do you think Feisty is better

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than gutsy? 
I don't know. 

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I don't know how other people 
perceive the word feisty. 

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I see myself, or at least I 
hope, and other people see me as

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someone that's strong, 
independent, fearless when it 

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comes to speaking out and 
honest. 

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Now if that makes me feisty, 
then I'm very happy to be 

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feisty. 
I think there are many women 

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that are standing up and 
speaking out and I'm absolutely 

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delighted with the amount of 
women actually, and it seems to 

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be women of a certain age and 
I'll put myself in that bracket 

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too. 
I'd like to see more youngsters 

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coming out and and becoming 
feisty and I hope we can 

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encourage some to speak out and 
to challenge what they're seeing

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and what they're hearing because
I'm hoping that we can, My 

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generation especially can lead 
the way for youngsters because 

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it's their futures at the end of
the day. 

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I mean, you know, let's be 
honest about this, Brian. 

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Neither of us are spring 
chickens. 

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And we've had the luxury of a 
pretty remarkable life where we 

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haven't been subjected to 
conflicts, bombs and and 

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totalitarian regimes like so 
many other countries have have 

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been at the hands of. 
We've been lucky in the West and

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we've had a maybe what some 
might call a privileged life. 

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And now to see all of that being
destroyed right in front of our 

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eyes. 
And I look at my grandchildren 

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and I think what kind of world 
are they going to be growing up 

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in? 
And as a woman, and I know that 

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many women will identify with 
this, I think is when you become

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a mum. 
Only a mum can know this. 

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I think you get this protective,
almost lioness instinct with 

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your children and you'll do 
anything for your children, you 

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really will. 
You'll put your life on the line

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for your children. 
So I think, you know now 

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especially women can see what is
happening around them. 

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They can see the futures for 
their children collapsing in 

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front of them. 
And I think women are leading 

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the way I I really do. 
That's not to say that you 

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gentlemen aren't doing your bit 
because you are and there are 

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many amazing guys out there that
are speaking up. 

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But I do think on on many 
topics, women, women are leading

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the way. 
Well, I I'd certainly agree with

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you on that. 
And part of my reason for for 

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doing this with women, these 
interviews with women who are 

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really standing up to do things 
and speak out, was that the 

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original foundation of the UK 
column occurred because of two 

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grand mums who decided that they
weren't going to take what was 

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happening in those days. 
The key issue was the takeover 

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of UK by the European Union. 
So there was a lot of focus on 

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things to do with the European 
Union, but we also were looking 

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very closely at constitutional 
issues. 

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And I will say as people of a 
certain age, we also realised 

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that something wasn't wrong in 
the sorry, that something wasn't

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right in the country. 
So two grandmums, but that was 

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Carol and Kate. 
But there was another elderly 

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lady who was very kind to us, 
very generous to us, called 

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Sheila, and they called 
themselves The Three Musketeers,

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which always made me smile. 
And I can certainly say the 

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three of them were pretty feisty
women, and they decided they 

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were not going to sit back and 
watch what was happening to 

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their country. 
They were going to do something 

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about it. 
That was when we initially were 

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looking at forming a a newspaper
or some sort of media outlet. 

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But what came to our mind was 
really that there was a battle 

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going on. 
There was a battle for Britain 

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and we certainly couldn't call 
it the Battle for Britain 

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because that had happened and a 
lot of very good people had 

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stood up to be counted and 
fought and died for their 

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country. 
So we called it the New Battle 

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for Britain group and this 
seemed to have some traction 

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with a lot of people. 
So just to cut this bit of the 

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story short, it was mature women
who were not going to have it. 

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They saw that some of the men 
were reluctant to stand up, so 

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they stepped forward. 
And look where that's got us 

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with the UK column. 
So Debbie for for the audience, 

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Let's tell the audience how we 
got to know each other. 

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Let's But you know what? 
Just before, before, before we 

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talk about floods and southwest 
water. 

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I do hope Southwest Water, while
listening to this. 

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On the flip side, I would say 
too that I think women in 

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particular, sometimes there are 
only jobs that women can do. 

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And by that I mean that whereas 
we've got lots of amazing women 

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standing up and challenging the 
narrative and putting their 

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heads above the parapet, we also
have a number of women in very 

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high places that should know 
better. 

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And I'm going to refer to Dame 
Jenny Harris, Dame June Rain, 

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Dame Kate Bingham, Dame Sally 
Davis, Dr. Allison Kay, for 

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example. 
And as a woman myself and as a 

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mum and a grand mum, I know that
all of those women have children

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and most of them have 
grandchildren. 

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And I know what I was taught 
when I was pregnant, when I was 

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a young mum, and how these 
people in the positions that 

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they're in can ignore all the 
red flags that they have been 

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shown by all of us is just 
simply beyond me. 

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So yes, we have some amazing 
women that are standing up and 

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it's only women like that. 
I think that can challenge those

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women in high places, not just 
on what they've done, but on the

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moral and the ethical debates on
how could you, as a mother, as a

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grandmother, witnessing, knowing
about thalidomide, knowing about

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teratogenic medicines, knowing 
about the history, how could you

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allow this to happen? 
So, Mum to mum, Dame June Rayne.

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Grandmum to grandmum, Dame Jean 
Rayne. 

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I would say to her, why? 
How could you possibly not know 

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that what you were doing was 
dangerous? 

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Because I know. 
So I think, you know. 

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There are some things that women
can only challenge other women 

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on. 
Because we we're going to, we're

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going to definitely come back on
to this because this is part of 

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the key area that you you've 
spent a lot of time researching 

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and speaking about and warning 
about. 

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I'm going to push you. 
Let's let let's talk to you a 

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little bit. 
Tell us a little bit about your 

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background and well, where did 
you go to school? 

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For instance, what sort of 
school did you go to? 

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I was very fortunate and and and
I guess I'm quite unusual for a 

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a, a late 1950s baby. 
I've never met my dad so I 

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didn't know my dad. 
So my mum was an unmarried 

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mother in the late 50s, which 
was very unusual and I was very 

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fortunate that she kept me and 
that my grandparents and her 

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looked after me. 
But I was always a bit different

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from the family that I grew up 
with because they were very 

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conservative church going 
Christians. 

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I went to church twice a week, 
but I guess it comes back to 

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your word again in a way. 
Brian Feisty's. 

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I was always challenging the 
narrative. 

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I was always questioning things 
and I was maybe always doing 

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things that my mother would take
a bit of a gasp at. 

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So I was very fortunate and I 
went to a private school. 

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I went to a school called 
Palmers Green High School, which

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is a very small private school 
in North London. 

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And it was I was a good girl. 
You know, I I, I I didn't have 

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great concentration, but I I 
obeyed the rules. 

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And then one day in my final 
year at Palmers Green High 

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School, we all had to line up in
the playground and I was the 

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tallest in the class. 
We weren't allowed to speak in 

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line, and I had never been. 
I'd never had a punishment at 

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school, ever. 
Not an order mark or a conduct 

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mark or anything that would 
warrant a conversation with my 

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parents and my mum. 
And on this occasion, my friend 

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in front of me talked and I bent
down to listen to her. 

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But I got blamed for it because 
they thought it was me that was 

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speaking in in the line and I 
got punished for it. 

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And there were ongoing 
consequences of that punishment 

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and the injustice of that one 
incident that my mother and I 

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often still recount it in that 
my whole sense of injustice was 

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fired up from that one event. 
And ever since then I have been 

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pretty anti authority I have to 
say. 

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And I have challenged things. 
I've always wanted to challenge 

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things if I don't understand 
them or if I think that an 

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injustice has taken place. 
So I left school and I went to 

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nurse training school and I was 
very fortunate. 

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I mean back in that day it was 
an honour and a privilege to be 

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accepted into nurse training 
school. 

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You know, the NHS weren't 
begging for nurses. 

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There were queues of of people 
wanting to enter nurse training 

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school and I was accepted at the
Royal Free. 

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Oh I I did do it. 
A year gap actually between 

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school and nursing and I worked 
in Harrods for a year, which was

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quite eye opening. 
I did it, I loved it. 

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I did enjoy it when it was the 
House of Fraser and then I went 

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to the Royal Free and I did my 
SRN training there, qualified 

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three years later, stayed in 
nursing for some years and made 

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the grade that became a ward 
sister. 

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And then, like everything you 
know, your life changes and you 

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get married and you have 
children and your whole life 

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completely alters. 
But I went, kept going back to 

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nursing as and when I could. 
But in the end I ended up doing 

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many things, volunteering for a 
lot of things during my life. 

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I volunteered. 
Well, I I actually worked for a 

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charity for quite a while. 
I worked for Action Aid. 

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I ran my own charity for autism 
for five years, which was pro 

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bono, a one woman charity. 
I sent parcels to the Gulf 

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during the Gulf War and I was 
the English representative, if 

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you like, sort of organising all
the truckloads of parcels that 

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were going to soldiers in the 
Gulf. 

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And as a result I was invited to
Downing St. for lunch with the 

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then Prime Minister John Major, 
which was an experience to say 

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the least, just walking into 
Downing St. walking up the 

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stairs and I was so surprised at
the size of the rooms upstairs. 

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They were like banquet halls, 
absolutely huge. 

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So I've done lots of 
volunteering and I've done lots 

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of work helping people that have
had bad things happen to them, 

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or underdogs that haven't been 
able to fight their own battles 

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without a bit of help. 
And I mean, eventually I ended 

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up as a single parent to five 
children, which was a challenge 

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in itself. 
That kept me pretty busy, and 

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all my kids are on the autism 
spectrum, which presents yet 

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more challenges, or at least 
did. 

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And the only way when you're 
confronted with something like 

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that is to learn about 
everything as much as you 

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possibly can. 
And that's really when my 

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learning journey started with 
research. 

230
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And since then I've been a 
complete research aholic and 

231
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spend 18 hours of 24 hours 
researching. 

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So autism was my first research 
specialist subject. 

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Debbie if I can just come in 
here and and say I know that the

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00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:43,080
autism subject was one that you 
really had to fight very hard 

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for, for your children because 
there were, there was there were

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incidents that you had to really
work very hard as a parent to 

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keep your family together. 
Are you able to tell us a little

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bit about that? 
Yeah, sure. 

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00:15:57,280 --> 00:15:59,920
I mean the the first time, I 
mean it's it's been very 

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interesting actually listening 
to all of your work and 

241
00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:05,560
listening to the interviews that
have been coming up on UK column

242
00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:08,040
from people that have gone 
through the whole child 

243
00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:14,320
protection journey, family 
courts, CAF casts, because this 

244
00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:19,480
has been going on for decades. 
I first came into contact with 

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child protection because of 
autism because of autism 

246
00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:26,800
spectrum conditions back in 
1996. 

247
00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:32,520
And one of my kids was 
particularly hyperactive and he 

248
00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:38,120
was deemed disruptive at school.
And they kept looking at me as 

249
00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:41,680
if it was my fault, as though I 
was doing something to him at 

250
00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:45,640
home that was having an effect 
on his school life. 

251
00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:51,040
And I was trying very hard to 
get him support because he was 

252
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non verbal till he was 7. 
So he didn't speak and people 

253
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couldn't really understand what 
he was saying. 

254
00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:01,720
But the thing with autism, 
Brian, and I think this is where

255
00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:07,520
people get confused, is that 
autism is neither Rain Man nor 

256
00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:10,680
little boy banging head on wall.
That's not the picture of 

257
00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:11,720
autism. 
Autism. 

258
00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:15,800
Autism spectrum conditions are 
completely unique to every 

259
00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:20,000
single person, and autism on its
own is a standalone 

260
00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:24,359
neurodevelopmental condition. 
It is not a learning disability 

261
00:17:24,599 --> 00:17:27,119
and it is not a mental health 
condition. 

262
00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:30,880
Yes, of course it can be 
associated with a learning 

263
00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:35,840
disability and often is, and it 
can be associated with mental 

264
00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:38,880
health conditions, coexisting 
mental health conditions. 

265
00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:44,120
But as a standalone condition, 
autism is a neurodevelopmental 

266
00:17:44,120 --> 00:17:49,440
condition and thus it should 
have experts, neurodevelopmental

267
00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:54,080
experts on hand to help people 
on the autism spectrum. 

268
00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:58,240
But that's something that we 
don't have in existence. 

269
00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:03,640
So the other thing to be aware 
of too is that with autism 

270
00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:08,520
spectrum conditions, there is no
intellectual impairment unless 

271
00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:12,320
it's associated you have an 
associated learning disability 

272
00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:16,240
with it. 
So for the majority of children 

273
00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:20,360
that are diagnosed or suspected 
of being on the autism spectrum,

274
00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:25,960
if they have an IQ of above 70, 
they will be sent to a 

275
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mainstream school. 
If they have an IQ of below 70, 

276
00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:33,120
they will be sent to a special 
school. 

277
00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:38,400
So the majority of these 
children do not have impairments

278
00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:42,520
in their IQ. 
They have perhaps low emotional 

279
00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:47,000
quotients, but their their 
intellect is not affected. 

280
00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:52,560
So most of them get, they get 
directed into mainstream schools

281
00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:56,520
where there is no support, none 
whatsoever. 

282
00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:59,760
And my son was struggling. 
He was really struggling. 

283
00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:02,400
He couldn't process the 
information that he was getting.

284
00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:05,880
So he was becoming disruptive in
school and he was getting 

285
00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:11,040
himself into trouble and I 
fought and fought and fought to 

286
00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:14,720
get him support and help. 
The more I fought the more I 

287
00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:19,360
raised the not the alarm. 
But if you like I I I just 

288
00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:23,480
raised the questions. 
The more I became demonized and 

289
00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:29,040
as a single parent I found 
myself a target and and and it 

290
00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:32,560
would seem from I've. 
I've had many years looking at 

291
00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:35,600
child protection since and 
looking at the system and it 

292
00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:41,560
would seem that many single mums
get targeted and I was one of 

293
00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:46,040
them. 
And with without giving us too 

294
00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:50,880
many personal details, but how 
long did it take you to to go 

295
00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:54,920
through that battle until you'd 
got the state system away from 

296
00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:57,720
your children? 
Oh, it was absolutely 

297
00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:02,800
extraordinary. 
I mean, autism in my opinion is 

298
00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:08,920
a genetic condition. 
And so my son was born on the 

299
00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:12,640
autism spectrum. 
He wasn't diagnosed on the 

300
00:20:12,640 --> 00:20:18,120
autism spectrum until he was 11 
years old and for the whole time

301
00:20:18,120 --> 00:20:24,360
really from when he was went to 
kindergarten, in Infant School, 

302
00:20:24,360 --> 00:20:27,600
when he went to year one and 
nursery, that was when the 

303
00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:31,680
problem started arising because 
we we had no problem with him, 

304
00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:34,440
although he was a handful, I 
will admit and he will admit 

305
00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:38,560
that now you know he's he's a 
very successful young man now 

306
00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:41,440
and he's doing very, very well. 
But he'll admit that he was 

307
00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:45,000
challenging as a youngster. 
But I fought and fought and the 

308
00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:48,640
more you fight, the more you ask
for help, the more you get 

309
00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:52,480
demonised and the more they 
decide, well, we don't know what

310
00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:56,200
it is that's causing this issue,
so it must be you. 

311
00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:00,520
So then they start to attack you
and it doesn't matter what you 

312
00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:05,600
do, you can be polite, you can 
be reasonable, you can be 

313
00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:09,360
measured, it doesn't matter. 
They will still put the blame on

314
00:21:09,360 --> 00:21:13,280
you and you end up with social 
services on your doorstep. 

315
00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:17,120
It's it's it's almost like all 
them, the domestic police. 

316
00:21:17,120 --> 00:21:20,200
I've never had a good experience
with social services and I've 

317
00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:23,440
had a couple. 
But what this resulted in was a 

318
00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:27,480
child protection meeting. 
You know, I I got summons to a 

319
00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:31,800
child protection meeting and it 
was only then that I discovered 

320
00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:38,440
how aggressive and how abhorrent
these child protection meetings 

321
00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:40,280
were. 
The parents have got no rights 

322
00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:42,320
at all. 
You get summons to a child 

323
00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:45,720
protection meeting, you get 
accusations thrown at you, and 

324
00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:49,320
you get documents through the 
post or put on your table, 

325
00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:52,840
served to you to tell you to 
turn up to a child protection 

326
00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:57,480
meeting. 
You have no way of taking 

327
00:21:57,480 --> 00:21:59,880
support with you. 
You're allowed to have a 

328
00:21:59,880 --> 00:22:03,680
solicitor, but the solicitor can
only sit there and monitor, 

329
00:22:04,360 --> 00:22:07,560
excuse me, the procedure. 
They're not allowed to speak for

330
00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:09,680
you, they're not allowed to 
defend you. 

331
00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:14,000
They're only allowed to make 
sure that the procedure is a 

332
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:17,320
lawful procedure. 
And I can remember going into 

333
00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:20,320
that meeting, and it was huge, 
Brian. 

334
00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:24,440
I mean, you had somebody from 
every single discipline you can 

335
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:28,240
imagine, including the police. 
So you had child protection 

336
00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:32,720
police, you had CAFCAS, you had 
doctors, you had teachers. 

337
00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:36,000
You had psychologists. 
You had head teachers. 

338
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:40,160
You had social workers. 
Yeah, you name it, you had, you 

339
00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:43,560
had them around that table. 
I mean, when I went into the 

340
00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:47,360
first child protection meeting, 
there must have been 14 people 

341
00:22:47,360 --> 00:22:51,320
around that table, and every 
single one of them, except for 

342
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:55,960
one, except for 1:00, every 
single one of them pointed the 

343
00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,600
finger at me. 
Every single one of them 

344
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,920
attacked me. 
You're telling me off for being 

345
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:04,280
muted? 
This is an informal chat, so I 

346
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:06,560
don't mind. 
I've now unmuted myself. 

347
00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:11,200
So Debbie, how how did you get, 
how did you get them off your 

348
00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:16,640
back because this this for many 
people is is the real issue. 

349
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:20,360
They they they get involvement 
with social services and they 

350
00:23:20,360 --> 00:23:25,800
are drawn into this system and 
it is amazingly difficult for 

351
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:31,640
them to disengage and survive as
an intact family. 

352
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:35,160
How did you do that and keep 
your children? 

353
00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:39,360
I didn't listen to the advice 
that I was given and the advice 

354
00:23:39,360 --> 00:23:42,760
that I was given from pretty 
much everybody, family, friends,

355
00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:46,240
professionals, was just keep it 
quiet. 

356
00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:49,760
Do as they say. 
Go along with what they say. 

357
00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:52,960
Don't rock the boat. 
You could lose your kids. 

358
00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:55,560
That's what people were telling 
me to do. 

359
00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:59,440
And at first I was scared. 
I was really scared. 

360
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:01,960
I was terrified that somebody 
was going to come through the 

361
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:08,480
door and take my kids. 
But I decided that I was going 

362
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:13,320
to provide evidence that my son 
was on the autism spectrum. 

363
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:19,880
We got allocated A caseworker 
who actually I got along with 

364
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:24,400
extremely well and we agreed 
between us that I would smuggle.

365
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:27,040
I wasn't allowed to take my son 
out of county. 

366
00:24:27,360 --> 00:24:29,960
I wasn't allowed. 
Everything that I did had to be 

367
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:31,560
monitored. 
He was registered on the Child 

368
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:35,240
Protection Register and 
therefore I was under scrutiny. 

369
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:39,120
My daughter was removed at the 
time because she was seen to 

370
00:24:39,120 --> 00:24:42,800
have been making the situation 
worse. 

371
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:44,760
So she went to my to my 
mother's. 

372
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:46,400
Luckily, she wasn't taken into 
care. 

373
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:50,120
That would never have happened. 
She went to my mother's and my 

374
00:24:50,120 --> 00:24:53,840
son was registered on the Child 
Protection Register because they

375
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:56,320
wouldn't believe me. 
When I said that he was on the 

376
00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,280
autism spectrum, they absolutely
refused to believe me. 

377
00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:04,480
So I smuggled my son to a 
private consultant child 

378
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:08,920
psychiatrist in the dead of 
night in the back of the car 

379
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:12,360
with blankets over him. 
I smuggled him out of county to 

380
00:25:12,360 --> 00:25:18,320
Bristol from North Devon and I 
met the consultant who did a 

381
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:23,320
three hour assessment and 
diagnosed my son on the autism 

382
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:29,200
spectrum and put it in writing. 
So when I saw the caseworker the

383
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:33,760
next time, I produced the letter
from the consultant and he 

384
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:37,800
wasn't surprised at all. 
But what he said was even though

385
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:41,680
you've gone to these lengths, 
this is a private consultation 

386
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:46,440
with a private consultant and 
I'm not sure that social 

387
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:51,040
services child protection will 
accept a private diagnosis. 

388
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:54,520
So we were on tenterhooks 
because we didn't know if they 

389
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,200
would accept it. 
However, on my occasion, luckily

390
00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:01,560
they did and my son was 
immediately deregistered from 

391
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:05,000
the Child Protection register. 
However, it didn't stop there 

392
00:26:05,360 --> 00:26:07,600
because I wasn't going to let 
them get away with it. 

393
00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:11,400
So I decided that I wanted to 
take action against child 

394
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:15,440
protection and against social 
services, and that I wasn't 

395
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:19,240
going to let this go because the
Child protection officer at the 

396
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:23,640
time, who I still remember the 
name of, and I can still see his

397
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,440
face. 
The child protection officer at 

398
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:30,640
the time had told me I was a bad
mother, had told me I was cruel,

399
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:33,480
had made all sorts of assertions
about my character, and I was 

400
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:37,760
determined that I was not going 
to allow this to carry on. 

401
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:44,520
So it took me 7 years to sue the
local authority for clinical 

402
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:48,440
negligence and it was the first 
case of its kind. 

403
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:55,240
And we won the case. 
And I ended up in a meeting with

404
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:59,680
my solicitor and the child 
protection officer that was 

405
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:03,800
responsible for making the 
comments and the social worker. 

406
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:08,680
And they were made to apologise 
to me and they were made to 

407
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:12,360
apologise to my son as well for 
failing him. 

408
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:18,120
And my son received substantial 
damages for clinical negligence.

409
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:22,880
And that's where I thought, 
right, you know, when it came to

410
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:26,560
child protection, I got very 
involved then with autism. 

411
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:31,360
But I thought the only thing to 
do to counter the professionals 

412
00:27:31,360 --> 00:27:35,360
whenever they come up with a a 
challenge is to I just went back

413
00:27:35,360 --> 00:27:37,200
to university. 
I thought, I'm going to have to 

414
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:40,200
do a degree in autism because 
I'm going to have to become a 

415
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:45,160
professional in my own right for
people to take me seriously. 

416
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:49,880
So that's what I did. 
And and Debbie, this this path 

417
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,960
ultimately LED you to becoming 
an advisor to the government on 

418
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:58,000
matters to do with autism. 
Yes, yes it it did. 

419
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:05,120
I I qualified at Birmingham 
University and then I was a 

420
00:28:05,120 --> 00:28:09,120
government advisor. 
It albeit voluntary, I it wasn't

421
00:28:09,120 --> 00:28:12,920
a paid civil service job. 
I was a government advisor on 

422
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:20,000
the National Autism Programme 
Board between 2010 and 2015, and

423
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:24,280
that was serving on the board 
under the Secretary of State for

424
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:27,040
the majority of my time. 
It was Norman Lamb. 

425
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:30,000
It was during the coalition. 
And it was also when we had a 

426
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:34,480
director of social a minister 
for social services, social 

427
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:38,800
care. 
Until Theresa May got rid of the

428
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:44,400
minister for social care, excuse
me, and just lumped it into the 

429
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,880
Minister of Health, into one 
Minister of Health. 

430
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:51,240
So I was on the board because 
many people don't realise that 

431
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:54,720
there isn't a blind act in the 
UK. 

432
00:28:54,720 --> 00:29:00,000
There isn't a deaf act, there 
isn't a Cerebral Palsy Act, but 

433
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,840
there is an autism Act. 
There's legal parliamentary 

434
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:08,000
legislation, the Autism Act 
2009, and my job was to help 

435
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:13,600
oversee and write the strategy, 
Think autism, the statutory 

436
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:18,440
guidance that all local 
authorities had to follow. 

437
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:21,960
And I was on the board for five 
years. 

438
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:27,400
But interestingly, during that 
five years, I ended up with 

439
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:32,760
child protection on my doorstep 
yet again, Brian. 

440
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,760
I'm watching. 
I'm watching the clock, Debbie, 

441
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:40,840
because I'm thinking to myself 
my goodness, we could we could 

442
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:43,640
go down this this alley. 
And I know you've got a lot more

443
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:47,760
to say on this. 
And I I I know from our personal

444
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:53,440
conversations how incredible and
how horrible the interaction 

445
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,520
with social services have been 
for you for a family. 

446
00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:02,040
But I think I'm going to say on 
on this occasion let's just move

447
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:06,160
on a little bit from there. 
So I I don't know the answer to 

448
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:07,800
this, so you can have to tell 
me. 

449
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:14,880
So when you finally put all this
to bed, what were you doing 

450
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:17,520
before you met a man called Ian 
Crane? 

451
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:21,280
I was fighting the water 
company. 

452
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:26,080
Right. 
And this is this is to do with 

453
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:31,520
an ongoing Horror Story for you,
which is the flooding of your 

454
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:36,080
house and your your continued 
battle with Southwest Water. 

455
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:40,280
Tell us a little bit, but just 
keep it to a few minutes, 

456
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:44,160
Debbie, because I want to move 
on to how you got involved with 

457
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:48,280
Ian Crane and how you got 
involved with the UK column and 

458
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:52,360
where that's taken your 
understanding of what is 

459
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:56,880
happening in UK, what's 
happening to people worldwide. 

460
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:01,840
But few minutes on your battle 
with with Southwest Water. 

461
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:06,400
OK, so my battle with Southwest 
Water is now an ongoing 20 year 

462
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,240
battle, which one of my very 
dear friends very kindly 

463
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:11,280
reminded me was actually 1/3 of 
my life. 

464
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:15,320
So for a third of my life I've 
been fighting Southwest water. 

465
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:20,160
I've endured 101 sewer floods 
and counting. 

466
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:26,600
I have a open raw sewer built 
outside my home and nobody wants

467
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:30,320
to take responsibility for the 
fact that my house is nothing 

468
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:35,000
more than a blighted slum. 
To be to be quite frank, you 

469
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,600
know, most of the services in 
our house don't work. 

470
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,120
It's full of mould and we've 
had. 

471
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:45,080
I've had conversations with the 
CEO of both Cornwall Council and

472
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:49,720
Southwest Water who know the 
situation, but nobody wants to 

473
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:54,160
take responsibility and I won't 
let them off the hook. 

474
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:56,120
I refuse to let them off the 
hook. 

475
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:59,400
My house is valueless. 
It can't be sold. 

476
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:03,600
It will continue to flood. 
There's no cure for it and 

477
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:05,400
nobody wants to take 
responsibility. 

478
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:09,360
So that's been my campaign for 
the last 20 years. 

479
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:14,400
And let's put it this way, 
Brian, Southwest Water, it's 

480
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,320
taken them so far. 
I put in a SAR. 

481
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:22,760
I mean, it's a very long ongoing
story, but we put in a SAR, a 

482
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:25,800
subject access request for all 
the documentation with my name 

483
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:28,560
on it over three months ago, and
they're still trying to compile 

484
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:32,200
it because of the volume. 
They know me so well. 

485
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:37,240
They've red flagged me as 
obviously a troublemaker, but 

486
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:38,760
I've challenged them and 
challenged them. 

487
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:42,400
I won't let them off the hook. 
I continue to challenge them 

488
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:45,160
because I'm not the only person 
that this is happening to. 

489
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:49,200
Many people that are getting 
flooded today don't live 

490
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,640
anywhere near a river, they 
don't live near the sea and yet 

491
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,840
their properties are flooding 
with what they think is 

492
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:59,680
rainwater or flood water. 
But actually it's not. 

493
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:04,200
It's over, it's it's drains that
are surcharging and it's sewage 

494
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:08,400
and I see more and more and more
of it happening all over the 

495
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:10,880
country. 
So while we're talking about the

496
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:14,240
rivers are polluted and we talk 
about organisations like surface

497
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:17,520
against sewage, what we've got 
to remember is there is no 

498
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:21,760
legislation currently in the 
United Kingdom that protects 

499
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:26,040
home owners if a water company 
floods them with sewage. 

500
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:29,720
There is no legislation. 
I've Anne Widdecombe has gone 

501
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,840
very deeply into it. 
There seems to be a lacuna in 

502
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:36,320
the law where no one wants to 
take responsibility. 

503
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:40,000
If sewage is poured into a 
river, then it's the job of the 

504
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:45,440
Environment Agency, AKA the Old 
Rivers Authority, to enforce. 

505
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:49,800
But if sewage pours into 
someone's house, the water 

506
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:53,440
company will blight your house 
and worse still, they won't tell

507
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:55,280
you. 
They'll put it on The Dirty 

508
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:58,600
house register. 
That's called the DG5 register. 

509
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:00,800
You won't be told until you come
to sell your house. 

510
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:04,080
And then when you come to sell 
it and a search is done on it, 

511
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:06,400
you realise that actually who's 
going to want a house? 

512
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:08,800
That sewer floods southwest 
water. 

513
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:12,480
Think that it's OK if they put a
sewer alarm on my home, but 

514
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:16,080
homes don't have sewer alarms, 
they have burglar alarms. 

515
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:18,480
If you were to see if you were 
to go to buy a house for the 

516
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:20,199
sewer alarm Braun, would you buy
it? 

517
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,239
Well, the answer to that has got
to be no. 

518
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:27,239
And this is an amazing story of 
itself. 

519
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:31,920
And I I hope that you will tell 
this story, Debbie, with me or 

520
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:34,080
whoever you you feel comfortable
with. 

521
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:38,440
But it's it's absolutely 
extraordinary because where does

522
00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,800
it come to? 
It comes to the fact that this 

523
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:47,440
nation, Great Britain, the UK 
that stands on the world stage 

524
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:51,320
preaching to countries, third 
world countries that can't feed 

525
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:53,520
themselves haven't got proper 
infrastructure. 

526
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:58,480
Here we are in UK in 2023 I had 
the quip at the beginning of 

527
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:02,000
this recording that we had a 
heavy downpour. 

528
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:05,400
But what will happen next next 
year is we'll have drought and a

529
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:09,120
house hose pipe ban. 
This is because we have not 

530
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:13,440
updated the reservoir 
infrastructure so that in this 

531
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:20,240
very wet and green land, we're 
not conserving water in a in a 

532
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:23,440
sensible and practical way. 
We're not building new 

533
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:25,840
reservoirs, we're not 
maintaining old ones, We're 

534
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:29,200
shutting some reservoirs down 
and therefore we don't have 

535
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:32,640
water. 
So that is 1 crass neglect of 

536
00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:35,680
infrastructure. 
But the other one is that we 

537
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:39,480
have not spent money on our 
water infrastructure, not the 

538
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:46,160
supply of fresh water houses, 
nor dealing with grey water and 

539
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:49,280
and sewage. 
It simply hasn't happened. 

540
00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:53,040
And in Cornwall, and correct me 
if I'm not right on this, but I 

541
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:56,760
will say that in Cornwall, we 
have an interesting situation 

542
00:35:56,760 --> 00:36:01,920
where there's an ongoing battle 
because Southwest Water and the 

543
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:06,680
local authorities don't know who
is responsible for which 

544
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:12,280
particular segments of the 
existing sewage infrastructure. 

545
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:15,960
And so when there's a problem, 
they just spend weeks or months 

546
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:19,040
or years pointing fingers at 
each other saying, well, 

547
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:21,440
actually it's your 
responsibility. 

548
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:25,240
Southwest Water And Southwest 
Water points back to the local 

549
00:36:25,240 --> 00:36:28,960
authority and says, no, no, no, 
this is your infrastructure. 

550
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:32,600
Or occasionally they agree and 
say, well, we don't actually 

551
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:37,040
know who owns the sewage water 
structure, water infrastructure,

552
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:45,200
what a what a position for a 
leading world country in 2023. 

553
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:49,080
And the result when when we get 
heavy rain, these houses are are

554
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:50,920
filled with sewage like your 
own. 

555
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:54,960
It's incredible. 
Well, I can tell you that I 

556
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:57,600
mapped. 
Myself and a friend. 

557
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:03,120
We mapped every asset in this 
whole ward of our constituency. 

558
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:05,760
All of it. 
We mapped British Gas. 

559
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:11,240
We mapped clean water, sewerage,
electricity, British Telecom, 

560
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:15,760
you name it, As we even. 
We even map the adits, the 

561
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:20,480
rivers, the brooks. 
We we, a Southwest Water still 

562
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:26,800
and Cornwall Council still use 
our maps as a guideline now for 

563
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:30,640
where their assets are. 
And I think what people need to 

564
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:34,120
remember is that the water 
companies are not statutory 

565
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:40,080
consultees for planning. 
So for me, if people can picture

566
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:43,440
Boss Castle, a little tiny 
village down the bottom of a 

567
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:47,360
very steep hill in north 
Cornwall, a little tiny fishing 

568
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:52,320
village up the hill has been 
built, loads of new housing 

569
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:53,760
estates. 
And that's what's happened 

570
00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:57,800
essentially to me is I live in a
little miner's cottage, a little

571
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:00,680
stone miner's cottage right at 
the bottom of the hill. 

572
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:06,840
And the hill above me used to be
fields with cows, but now I've 

573
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:11,120
got five housing estates. 
Now, none of those housing 

574
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:16,160
estates work at the water 
company was never consulted with

575
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:21,480
regards to are these housing 
estates going to overwhelm your 

576
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:25,680
already failing infrastructure? 
They were never consulted. 

577
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:29,200
So the water companies are happy
to take the money from the 

578
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:34,800
developers and to connect people
to connect a new estate to old 

579
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:39,280
infrastructure, but at our cost 
because it's us that get 

580
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:42,840
flooded. 
So the number of developments 

581
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:47,080
and and to be fair actually on 
one occasion to Cornwall, 

582
00:38:47,720 --> 00:38:52,160
Cornwall actually turned down 
the developing the plans, they 

583
00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:54,560
turned them down, but they were 
overturned at Westminster. 

584
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:58,480
I think it was our friend Eric 
Pickles that decided that he 

585
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:02,720
knew better than the locals, so 
he let the plans go ahead. 

586
00:39:02,720 --> 00:39:05,680
So now we've ended up with a 
situation where we've got 

587
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:09,960
sewerage infrastructure that's 
probably been designed for 200 

588
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:12,960
houses that's now having to 
accommodate 2000. 

589
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:17,120
Yeah, this is the nub of the 
problem isn't it? 

590
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:21,640
That we we've had a massive 
expansion to the urban 

591
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:30,280
infrastructure with minimal 
minimal investment into sewage 

592
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:35,240
and water infrastructure and now
now things are coming home to 

593
00:39:35,240 --> 00:39:37,320
roost because these problems are
appearing. 

594
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:41,520
But of course what you say is 
true is that when the homeowner 

595
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:47,080
says these things are wrong, you
as one individual homeowner are 

596
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:54,040
fighting a monster, which is the
multi £1,000,000 southwest water

597
00:39:54,240 --> 00:39:57,600
which can bring all of its big 
legal team in to say, well no, 

598
00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:00,320
it's not our problem, it's an 
incredible it's. 

599
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:02,120
Worse than that. 
It's worse than that. 

600
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:05,320
You know, Brian, because we're 
doing the job of the water 

601
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:08,200
company and the council, because
I've had to train as a flood 

602
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:10,120
warden, I have to close the 
road. 

603
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:13,280
My Rd. is like a river. 
You could literally row a boat 

604
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:17,080
and that's only in 3 minutes. 
So we are, we are the ones that 

605
00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:19,520
are out there that are in the 
middle of the road. 

606
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:23,480
We've provided videos, photos. 
I've been called a liar, I've 

607
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:28,000
been called an exaggerator. 
I've been called every single 

608
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:30,600
name under the sun by Southwest 
water. 

609
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:36,320
I've seen documents that have 
demonised me because I challenge

610
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:38,160
them and I won't let them off 
the hook. 

611
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:42,800
So yes, they've got this huge 
Bank of lawyers at Pennon, their

612
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:47,560
parent company, and they use 
that power, they use it on their

613
00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:49,480
own customers. 
And yet you've only got to look 

614
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:53,080
at any reports of what reports 
of what do what, by the way? 

615
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:56,560
Pretty much nothing, because 
there is no regulation from off 

616
00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:58,880
what they're a financial 
regulator only. 

617
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:02,080
But you look at the reports and 
you can see the damage that 

618
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:05,320
these water companies are doing 
to to people all around the 

619
00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:08,560
country, and none of them, none 
of them are taking 

620
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:12,160
accountability for it. 
And the local authorities point 

621
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:13,960
the finger to the water 
companies. 

622
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:17,400
The water companies point the 
finger to the local authorities.

623
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:21,960
I've got the ownership deeds of 
all the assets around me. 

624
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:26,040
And now Southwest Water are 
telling me, oh, we don't think 

625
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:29,120
it belongs to us, even though 
they've worked on an asset for 

626
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:31,360
10 years. 
They're saying we did it as a 

627
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:34,400
gesture of goodwill. 
No, I don't think so. 

628
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:37,920
S Water. 
No one works on assets that 

629
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:40,560
don't belong to them. 
It's simply ridiculous. 

630
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:46,680
But all the time they've allowed
my community to live like this, 

631
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:49,920
Frightened every single time it 
rains. 

632
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:52,280
We can't go on holiday. 
We can't go away. 

633
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:54,440
We can't. 
Every single birthday pretty 

634
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:58,200
much is ruined. 
You don't know what is going to 

635
00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:01,560
happen next If there's a A. 
We get flood warnings 2 three 

636
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:04,960
times a week and you don't know 
if that flood warning is going 

637
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:08,440
to result in six inches of water
in your home, whether you're 

638
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:10,560
going to be out of your house 
for nine months. 

639
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:14,560
You can't invite people round, 
you can't go anywhere. 

640
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:18,880
Your whole life is on hold. 
People don't understand. 

641
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:20,800
With floods. 
I feel so sorry for all the 

642
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:23,040
people that were flooded 3 
months ago. 

643
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:26,520
And I saw a report on the news 
that said, you know, they're 

644
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:28,280
hoping to be in their homes for 
Christmas. 

645
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:31,080
And I thought, no, you won't be 
in your homes for Christmas. 

646
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:34,680
Because if your house is 
flooded, it's at least six to 

647
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:38,720
nine months before your home is 
dry enough to even start to 

648
00:42:38,720 --> 00:42:41,040
repair. 
And then you've got the fight 

649
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:44,800
with the insurance company. 
You know, it just goes from one 

650
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:47,960
drama to another. 
The ongoing effects and 

651
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:51,440
repercussions and psychological 
damage are huge. 

652
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:55,240
But I don't know, Maybe I've got
a strong spirit and I just keep 

653
00:42:55,240 --> 00:42:57,840
on fighting. 
Well, at the end of the day, 

654
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:01,560
you're a gutsy woman, Debbie. 
This this is the key thing. 

655
00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:06,560
So I, I, I would suspect there's
quite a few people listening in.

656
00:43:07,240 --> 00:43:11,440
People who've seen you talking 
on UK column, listen to what you

657
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:14,200
have to talk about now. 
They're beginning to understand 

658
00:43:14,720 --> 00:43:17,720
the things that have happened 
that have made you into the 

659
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:21,360
woman that you are. 
And clearly you've never been a 

660
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:24,240
woman who's going to say, well, 
this is wrong. 

661
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:28,200
Oh, well, that's the way it is. 
You, you've been one of the 

662
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:30,520
people who've always stood up to
challenge it. 

663
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:36,000
So these, these are things which
have formed. 

664
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:38,640
You made you the person that you
are. 

665
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:42,520
They're ongoing battles, but 
you've been able to do even more

666
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:45,360
on top of that. 
And I'm going to push you 

667
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:47,240
because we've got to. 
We've got to get there. 

668
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:52,760
Ian Crane, Somehow you got in 
touch with Ian Crane or Ian 

669
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:56,960
Crane got in touch with you. 
Now if people don't know who Ian

670
00:43:56,960 --> 00:44:02,440
Crane is, he was a lovely man 
who also realised that things 

671
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:05,240
were very wrong in the UK and 
the world in general. 

672
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:10,800
And he stood up to be counted by
setting up talks which started 

673
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:14,920
very small, and then ultimately 
got to the stage where he could 

674
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:22,000
take take over a a very nice 
hotel for the weekend and fill 

675
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:27,000
that hotel with people who 
wanted to hear speakers talking 

676
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:31,640
about what was wrong, what was 
causing problems in UK and 

677
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:35,120
worldwide. 
And the wonderful thing for me 

678
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:39,680
is that when you went to one of 
those events, people were 

679
00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:43,800
listening to very serious 
subjects, very often very 

680
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:47,880
serious subjects, some of them 
quite dark in the talks. 

681
00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:51,960
And yet when the people 
socialised at coffee time or 

682
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:55,480
maybe in the evening in the bar,
you could just hear people 

683
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:59,120
laughing and talking and 
interacting with with each 

684
00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:01,600
other. 
Sadly, Ian isn't with us 

685
00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:06,280
anymore. 
But Debbie, I never did know 

686
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:08,320
how. 
How did you get in touch with 

687
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:11,040
Ian Crane? 
But you know what? 

688
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:15,080
It was one of those things where
it just happened. 

689
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:18,960
And my great friend and I will. 
I will name her because it was 

690
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:23,640
really down to her. 
Mel Sheridan, who's also had 

691
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:27,000
huge problems with Southwest 
Water. 

692
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:33,280
She phoned Ian Crane one morning
and spoke to him and she said to

693
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:37,600
me you should phone him. 
And his number was online. 

694
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:40,480
It was very easy to get in 
contact with him. 

695
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:42,720
And I thought, it can't be that 
easy, surely. 

696
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:47,280
And I picked up the phone and I 
dialled the number and Ian 

697
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:50,960
picked up and I was really 
surprised that it was him on the

698
00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:55,200
end of the phone. 
And I just explained who I was 

699
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:57,960
and I said I'm having an 
absolute nightmare with the 

700
00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:01,280
water companies. 
They're corrupt to to their boot

701
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:03,280
strings. 
They're cruel. 

702
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:05,560
They don't care about their 
customers. 

703
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:09,840
They've got huge, huge amount of
money in their pot. 

704
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:11,680
They're only worried about their
shareholders. 

705
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:14,200
I've got the evidence. 
I've done loads of work into 

706
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:20,440
them and I want to expose them. 
And he listened to me and said, 

707
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:24,280
well, I tell you what, Debbie, 
I've got an AV conference coming

708
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:28,120
up in a couple of months. 
How about you put together a 

709
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:32,560
presentation, send it to me and 
we'll see if we can get you 

710
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:37,440
included on the conference. 
And I was like wow, wow. 

711
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:40,280
And I I literally put the phone 
down and I got an e-mail from 

712
00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:44,520
him within about 10 minutes to 
say this is the address, this is

713
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:47,320
the e-mail address to send a 
presentation to. 

714
00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:49,680
Please, please send it across as
soon as you can. 

715
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:56,200
So I put together some slides 
and he liked what he saw and he 

716
00:46:56,200 --> 00:47:00,720
agreed that the water companies 
needed to be have a a spotlight 

717
00:47:00,720 --> 00:47:06,280
shown on them and he gave me the
opportunity to talk at AV. 

718
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:08,520
And that of course is where I 
met you Brian. 

719
00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:12,800
And that's where it it all 
started because when I presented

720
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:16,600
at AV, of course I got the 
opportunity to listen to all the

721
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:22,040
all of the other speakers and 
that was really I was waking up.

722
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:27,000
But that was one of the trigger 
moments that opened my eyes even

723
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:31,800
more to what was going on. 
Thank you for that. 

724
00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:35,960
And that was fun times because I
I remember Ian giving me a call 

725
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:38,680
and saying that he's been 
speaking to this lady called 

726
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:44,080
Debbie Evans who knew a huge 
amount about water and the water

727
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:48,880
companies and also things 
happening internationally to do 

728
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:52,400
with water. 
I'm going to say what he's 

729
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:54,200
saying. 
What did he say to me? 

730
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:57,840
He said, well this lady knows a 
huge amount Brian, but I think 

731
00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:02,440
she could do with a little bit 
of help to prepare her slides 

732
00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:06,840
and and also have a little bit 
of the confidence to join in 

733
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:11,280
with AV, which is alternative 
view if people want to know what

734
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:13,040
that is. 
We'll make sure there's a link 

735
00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:17,360
through to alternative view in 
the the notes for this audio. 

736
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:21,240
You mentioned me, Brian, you 
mentioned me right all the way 

737
00:48:21,240 --> 00:48:24,800
through and that's really how 
how we got to know each other 

738
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:28,520
because you took me under your 
wing and and gave me a few hints

739
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:32,520
and tips and and helped me help 
me with my presentation and 

740
00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:35,600
stuff. 
Well, that that that's true, 

741
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:37,760
Debbie. 
But the other thing that was 

742
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:40,800
happening was that every time we
had a discussion, you were 

743
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:44,560
talking about other things. 
And I'm thinking blindly this, 

744
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:46,640
this lady knows all sorts of 
things. 

745
00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:51,320
And so our discussions got more 
and more wide-ranging. 

746
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:55,440
You did the alternative view and
you did really well and people 

747
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:57,600
paid attention to what you had 
to say. 

748
00:48:58,520 --> 00:49:02,640
But we were able to carry on 
that conversation and then we 

749
00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:05,960
got the opportunity to say to 
you, well, do you want to come 

750
00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:11,800
and talk on a few things with UK
column And I'm going to say what

751
00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:16,880
an adventure that's been because
no, no sooner had you come on 

752
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:21,960
than life LED. 
I correct me if I've got this 

753
00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:27,240
wrong, but life LED, you LED us 
back in the direction really of 

754
00:49:27,240 --> 00:49:32,600
medical matters and then we had 
the incredible events of COVID 

755
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:37,520
and Lockdown and this gave you 
an opportunity to really get 

756
00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:42,640
back into your your earlier 
professional mould as as a 

757
00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:47,320
nursing sister. 
And you realise that things just

758
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:50,480
weren't right with what they 
were saying about COVID and 

759
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:52,640
Lockdown. 
What was? 

760
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:56,240
What was the key trigger did? 
Did you have a day when you're 

761
00:49:56,560 --> 00:50:00,400
listening to something on the 
radio or watching the TV or 

762
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:03,080
whatever it was? 
And you said this is nonsense. 

763
00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:05,040
What? 
What engaged you? 

764
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:08,680
What was the first thing that 
made you really think that what 

765
00:50:08,680 --> 00:50:11,200
they were saying about COVID was
wrong? 

766
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:17,600
My first warning flag I think 
was the tests, the PCR test, the

767
00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:20,960
test and trace. 
Because as I'd done ENT, I'd 

768
00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:22,720
specialised in ear, nose and 
throat. 

769
00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:27,560
So I knew that nasopharyngeal 
swabs were pretty dangerous and 

770
00:50:28,240 --> 00:50:32,480
as an ENT nurse I would prefer a
consultant to do them. 

771
00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:37,560
It's a very delicate part of the
body and if you shovel a swab of

772
00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:41,000
cotton wool, bud up your nose in
in the wrong in the wrong way, 

773
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:42,960
you could do yourself some 
serious damage. 

774
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:45,480
Which is why we say to children,
and we watch children, we say 

775
00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:48,480
don't put anything up your nose.
That was my first warning flag. 

776
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:53,600
But my son, actually, I have to 
to acknowledge David here 

777
00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:58,120
because he came downstairs one 
one day and he said mum, he said

778
00:50:58,240 --> 00:51:03,000
there's 98 or 99.7% of people 
are getting better. 

779
00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:07,960
Why is everybody worried? 
And it was like a a light bulb 

780
00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:10,560
moment for me. 
It was quite early on and he'd 

781
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:13,520
been doing, he's got, I think 
he's got my my sort of research 

782
00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:16,760
genes and he'd been doing a load
of research and that was the 

783
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:20,800
light bulb moment. 
So that the PCR tests, because I

784
00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:25,960
knew that they were either 
retrieving something from inside

785
00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:29,360
the nose, so they were either 
swabbing for DNA or they were 

786
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:32,960
inserting something high up in 
the nose that you wouldn't be 

787
00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:35,160
able to get out. 
So I was very suspicious of 

788
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:36,800
that. 
The other thing that really 

789
00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:42,480
triggered me was that a pandemic
of any, any sort would normally 

790
00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:44,800
burn itself out in three to four
years. 

791
00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:48,560
So why anybody was even 
considering a vaccine which 

792
00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:52,800
would normally take 5 to 10 
years to develop was also a red 

793
00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:56,000
flag. 
But those were the three things 

794
00:51:56,000 --> 00:52:00,880
that really got me suspicious 
that something wasn't right. 

795
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:09,760
And that led on to you 
interacting, coming into contact

796
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:15,000
with other people who were doing
amazing research and saying some

797
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:17,800
pretty amazing things. 
And one name that comes to me 

798
00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:21,720
instantly at this point is a 
lady called Anne Marie Yim. 

799
00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:26,800
I knew you were going to say 
Doctor Anne Marie and what an 

800
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:29,760
absolute trooper she is. 
And yeah, you're absolutely 

801
00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:32,040
right. 
You know, I jumped on Telegram 1

802
00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:35,760
evening and you told me about 
these lines that you could talk 

803
00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:39,120
to loads of people on a like a 
Telegram chat. 

804
00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:45,040
And there was a chat talking 
about COVID, the vaccines, the 

805
00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:47,880
roll out with Doctor Anne Marie 
Yim. 

806
00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:51,800
And I happened to catch this 
conversation on Telegram and as 

807
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:56,560
a result I messaged her. 
And from that message came great

808
00:52:56,560 --> 00:53:00,960
knowledge because as many of our
regular audience will know, we 

809
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:05,360
did many interviews with Doctor 
Yim and her other experts, 

810
00:53:05,360 --> 00:53:08,640
Professor Peron as well from 
France. 

811
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:12,280
So we had a very much 
international flavour on what 

812
00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:15,040
was going on in Europe with 
COVID. 

813
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:19,240
And one thing led to another. 
And I think where I was 

814
00:53:19,240 --> 00:53:24,800
fortunate was that because I'm a
nurse, I can translate some of 

815
00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:28,520
that lingo and jargon that 
people were hearing and perhaps 

816
00:53:28,520 --> 00:53:32,640
not understanding, so I could 
translate it and make it more 

817
00:53:32,640 --> 00:53:37,760
simple for people to understand.
So yes, Doctor Anne Marie Yim, 

818
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:41,520
Professor Peron, Harvey 
Seligman, all of those 

819
00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:44,640
interviews can be found still on
the UK column. 

820
00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:48,040
And I mean, how right were they?
You know, I remember Doctor 

821
00:53:48,040 --> 00:53:52,200
Seligman saying right at the 
beginning, Brian talking about 

822
00:53:52,440 --> 00:53:56,680
shedding for example, and he was
studying the Pfizer data in 

823
00:53:56,680 --> 00:53:58,840
Israel. 
This was right from the get go. 

824
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:01,920
So we were well ahead of the 
curve. 

825
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:05,840
And you know, taking yourself 
back to when you interviewed 

826
00:54:06,680 --> 00:54:10,640
Nicola and Tony, we were well 
ahead of the curve then. 

827
00:54:10,640 --> 00:54:15,200
We were seeing serious adverse 
reactions from very early on, 

828
00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:20,440
even before other people were 
seeing them and looking at the 

829
00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:25,720
NHS long term plan as I did, in 
great depth and seeing what was 

830
00:54:25,720 --> 00:54:30,480
coming in the future and what is
happening now is something 

831
00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:33,560
that's fundamentally, completely
different from the NHS that I 

832
00:54:33,560 --> 00:54:37,320
trained in. 
So everything, everything that I

833
00:54:37,600 --> 00:54:42,160
am familiar with, everything 
that rings home with me, that I 

834
00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:44,800
feel safe with. 
That's not happening in the NHS 

835
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:49,920
at the moment and I'm horrified 
because for nurses of my 

836
00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:52,720
generation and I can imagine 
there'll be quite a few 

837
00:54:52,720 --> 00:54:56,400
listening today and they'll be 
saying exactly the same. 

838
00:54:56,400 --> 00:55:02,000
It was not like this in my day 
and the the the change has been 

839
00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:04,000
phenomenal. 
I mean it's it's completely 

840
00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:08,280
different to to how it was then.
And and what you're talking 

841
00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:12,440
about there is, is the whole of 
the medical system, but in 

842
00:55:12,440 --> 00:55:16,320
particular the NHS. 
Yeah, the NHS is is. 

843
00:55:17,120 --> 00:55:20,600
It's unrecognisable. 
It's completely unrecognisable. 

844
00:55:20,600 --> 00:55:23,520
Not only do you not know who 
you're seeing when you go in, 

845
00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:26,400
you don't know what you're being
told, you don't know if you're 

846
00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:31,640
going to get seen. 
When I trained, the patient was 

847
00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:38,080
always the centre of our radar, 
it was patient centred care and 

848
00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:43,280
today the NHS is not functioning
as a health service at all. 

849
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:46,320
It's not providing a service to 
people. 

850
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:49,960
What it's actually doing is 
making people sick. 

851
00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:53,720
In my opinion, you know, it's 
making people sicker than they 

852
00:55:53,720 --> 00:55:57,720
should be and it's not offering 
them the correct help and 

853
00:55:57,720 --> 00:56:00,520
treatment that they're needing 
quickly enough. 

854
00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:03,640
So we're testing, we're spending
all of this money in this 

855
00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:08,000
country at the moment on testing
everybody for cancer, testing 

856
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:12,200
them for disease, testing them 
for viruses and then what do we 

857
00:56:12,200 --> 00:56:15,200
do with them When we do discover
that there is a problem, we put 

858
00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:18,120
them at the end of a 7.8 million
waiting list. 

859
00:56:18,840 --> 00:56:22,640
So we're we're happy to test 
healthy people but we're not 

860
00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:26,600
happy to treat those ones that 
need help and in particular you 

861
00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:29,480
know those that are suffering 
with serious adverse reactions. 

862
00:56:30,120 --> 00:56:32,920
We were right ahead of the curve
from the get go with that 

863
00:56:32,920 --> 00:56:37,600
because we could see that people
with serious adverse reactions 

864
00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:42,000
were were not being acknowledged
by doctors, They weren't being 

865
00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:45,080
seen by professionals. 
They weren't being able to 

866
00:56:45,080 --> 00:56:50,760
access the tests, the treatment 
that they needed and were often 

867
00:56:50,760 --> 00:56:53,240
having to pay huge amount using 
their savings. 

868
00:56:53,240 --> 00:56:56,240
Some of them are having to 
remortgage or sell their homes 

869
00:56:56,480 --> 00:57:00,040
in order to get private medical 
treatments because they couldn't

870
00:57:00,040 --> 00:57:03,800
access NHS treatment. 
So, you know, for me 

871
00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:08,000
particularly, it was interesting
speaking to Vanessa Bailey when 

872
00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:11,160
she was telling me that a friend
of hers needed medical treatment

873
00:57:11,160 --> 00:57:18,640
in Syria and was seen, treated 
and and left with whatever they 

874
00:57:18,640 --> 00:57:22,520
needed within 25 minutes. 
This all took place in 25 

875
00:57:22,520 --> 00:57:25,360
minutes here. 
You know, if you're admitted via

876
00:57:25,360 --> 00:57:30,160
an ambulance, you could be stuck
on a trolley for 12/24/48 hours.

877
00:57:30,560 --> 00:57:32,680
So what kind of health service 
is that? 

878
00:57:32,680 --> 00:57:36,920
It's not the one I trained in. 
In fact, now in 3rd world 

879
00:57:36,920 --> 00:57:41,200
countries you seem to be able to
access better healthcare than 

880
00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:45,360
you do here in the UK as a 
developed, as what we call a 

881
00:57:45,360 --> 00:57:49,360
developed country. 
Debbie Let's let's jump in the 

882
00:57:49,360 --> 00:57:55,120
deep end because your and our 
personal experience of what 

883
00:57:55,120 --> 00:57:59,560
happened during the COVID, 
so-called Pandemic and Lockdown 

884
00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:04,200
was an amazing thing. 
You were researching and you 

885
00:58:04,200 --> 00:58:08,680
discovered a lot of things and 
then subsequently you've also 

886
00:58:08,680 --> 00:58:12,200
started to see a lot of things 
happening. 

887
00:58:12,200 --> 00:58:15,400
Part of that is what is 
happening in the medical world, 

888
00:58:16,280 --> 00:58:21,120
but a lot of it is broader than 
just the medical world we're in 

889
00:58:21,120 --> 00:58:23,200
the we're in the last few 
minutes really. 

890
00:58:23,200 --> 00:58:27,080
But you've come a huge way. 
You're a fighter. 

891
00:58:27,400 --> 00:58:30,680
What is it? 
What is it you think you're 

892
00:58:30,680 --> 00:58:35,600
fighting at the moment? 
I believe we're fighting not 

893
00:58:35,600 --> 00:58:41,560
just a physical war that we see 
around us, an information war, 

894
00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:44,480
but we're fighting a spiritual 
war. 

895
00:58:44,480 --> 00:58:49,920
What I see is satanic. 
What I see is demonic. 

896
00:58:50,320 --> 00:58:54,680
I cannot. 
I mean the people that are doing

897
00:58:54,680 --> 00:58:59,800
this, the people in control of 
this narrative, to me my 

898
00:58:59,800 --> 00:59:03,040
personal opinion is they don't 
have souls and they don't have 

899
00:59:03,040 --> 00:59:08,600
consciences and and I believe 
that I I very much believe that 

900
00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:11,880
walking around as there are 
angels in human form and I'm 

901
00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:15,000
very fortunate that I've met so 
many, especially since working 

902
00:59:15,000 --> 00:59:17,960
with the column. 
But there are also demons in 

903
00:59:17,960 --> 00:59:22,480
human form too, people that are 
anti humans, anti humanists, 

904
00:59:22,800 --> 00:59:26,440
people that don't don't want to 
care for other human beings. 

905
00:59:27,000 --> 00:59:31,800
So I believe that this is, this 
is evil, this is dark, and this 

906
00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:35,280
is satanic. 
And I think it's biblical. 

907
00:59:35,360 --> 00:59:37,560
I think we're living in biblical
times. 

908
00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:41,480
Well, I wouldn't disagree with 
that, that at all. 

909
00:59:41,680 --> 00:59:43,840
And that won't surprise you, I 
don't think. 

910
00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:48,600
But it's clear that something 
very nasty is operating both in 

911
00:59:48,600 --> 00:59:53,720
the UK and worldwide. 
There seems to be money, plenty 

912
00:59:53,720 --> 00:59:56,640
of money for wars and munitions 
and weapons. 

913
00:59:56,640 --> 00:59:58,880
We can support the war in 
Ukraine. 

914
00:59:58,880 --> 01:00:04,080
We can support the horrific. 
Scenes of the bombing in Gaza. 

915
01:00:05,240 --> 01:00:07,760
But we can't look after elderly 
people. 

916
01:00:08,120 --> 01:00:14,320
We've also seen many elderly 
people die as a result of the of

917
01:00:14,320 --> 01:00:17,640
the lockdown where they were 
locked into so-called care 

918
01:00:17,640 --> 01:00:22,680
facilities and denied access 
with their relatives and young 

919
01:00:22,680 --> 01:00:24,520
children. 
All the things that might be 

920
01:00:24,520 --> 01:00:29,600
expected to keep an older or an 
elderly person sprightly and 

921
01:00:29,680 --> 01:00:34,800
interested in life. 
We've got the demise of the NHS,

922
01:00:34,840 --> 01:00:37,840
where we can't get basic medical
treatment for people. 

923
01:00:38,440 --> 01:00:42,360
We've got the sexualisation of 
our children in schools, young 

924
01:00:42,360 --> 01:00:45,440
children in schools. 
We've got the other utter 

925
01:00:45,440 --> 01:00:50,000
breakdown of politics. 
There's something really 

926
01:00:50,240 --> 01:00:56,000
unpleasant at work in in UK and 
when we're getting into it, and 

927
01:00:56,000 --> 01:01:00,040
you've been doing some and some 
incredible research on on this 

928
01:01:00,040 --> 01:01:04,600
over the last few months, is 
that we're seeing this network 

929
01:01:04,600 --> 01:01:10,560
of global bodies that seem to be
able to pull the strings to get 

930
01:01:10,560 --> 01:01:14,240
nation states to jump to their 
tune. 

931
01:01:15,600 --> 01:01:19,400
Can you tell us a bit more about
the network that you're seeing? 

932
01:01:20,280 --> 01:01:23,520
Other networks, absolutely huge.
I mean, you know, I think most 

933
01:01:23,520 --> 01:01:25,920
people that are listening to 
this now will immediately 

934
01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:29,960
recognise The Who, the World 
Health Organization, the United 

935
01:01:29,960 --> 01:01:34,640
Nations, the World Economic 
Forum, the, you know, the, the 

936
01:01:34,640 --> 01:01:38,080
banks, I mean, they're all in it
up to their neck. 

937
01:01:38,080 --> 01:01:42,000
And this is for control and this
is to frighten us. 

938
01:01:42,000 --> 01:01:45,840
You know that for the last four 
years, the population of the 

939
01:01:45,840 --> 01:01:49,560
world, I don't know anybody that
hasn't been affected. 

940
01:01:49,880 --> 01:01:53,760
That's some in some way, shape 
or form by what we've seen in 

941
01:01:53,760 --> 01:01:56,800
the last four years. 
Wherever you are in the world, 

942
01:01:57,200 --> 01:02:01,080
people have had information 
thrown at them, cascades of 

943
01:02:01,080 --> 01:02:05,680
information, info, demics, and 
and now they're frightened. 

944
01:02:05,760 --> 01:02:09,400
So many people are frightened. 
And I think the key to all of 

945
01:02:09,400 --> 01:02:13,000
this is these globalists want us
to be frightened. 

946
01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:18,640
They want to cause confusion, 
chaos, disruption, and we must 

947
01:02:18,640 --> 01:02:22,080
not allow that. 
We must not allow that we see 

948
01:02:22,080 --> 01:02:25,400
them. 
I mean, I I heard Ben Ruben on 

949
01:02:25,400 --> 01:02:28,280
the news and and I've heard 
other people, a professor, Chris

950
01:02:28,280 --> 01:02:32,560
Flowers was saying in my recent 
interview with him when he was, 

951
01:02:32,680 --> 01:02:35,040
he was, he was directing a 
message actually to Professor 

952
01:02:35,040 --> 01:02:38,000
Jonathan van Tam. 
And the message is the same. 

953
01:02:38,360 --> 01:02:41,640
We see you. 
You know, are they really that 

954
01:02:41,640 --> 01:02:45,800
stupid that they don't think 
that we see what's going on with

955
01:02:45,800 --> 01:02:49,320
these global organisations? 
There's just one big revolving 

956
01:02:49,320 --> 01:02:53,440
door because the conflicts of 
interests are absolutely 

957
01:02:53,440 --> 01:02:55,440
immense. 
I mean, you know, Bill Gates, 

958
01:02:55,840 --> 01:02:59,080
he's not a country, but he's the
second biggest donor for the 

959
01:02:59,080 --> 01:03:03,440
World Health Organization. 
He's got the ex chair of the 

960
01:03:03,520 --> 01:03:06,960
MHRA in his Bill and Melinda 
Gates Foundation. 

961
01:03:06,960 --> 01:03:10,840
He's got his fingers pretty much
in every pie and especially in 

962
01:03:10,840 --> 01:03:15,120
the United Kingdom's pie. 
You know, we've got Bill Gates 

963
01:03:15,120 --> 01:03:19,280
infiltrating everywhere and it's
network within network, but it's

964
01:03:19,280 --> 01:03:24,520
always the same names that keep 
coming up and the same 

965
01:03:24,520 --> 01:03:28,600
organisations And the reason 
that they've made it a spider's 

966
01:03:28,600 --> 01:03:35,080
web is to try to confuse us, is 
to try and make it difficult for

967
01:03:35,080 --> 01:03:39,320
us to be able to join the dots. 
And we've always said that 

968
01:03:39,320 --> 01:03:43,440
whatever dots we join on the 
column, we always encourage 

969
01:03:43,440 --> 01:03:46,040
other people to take the 
information that we're giving 

970
01:03:46,040 --> 01:03:47,800
them and check it out for 
themselves. 

971
01:03:48,080 --> 01:03:51,120
Join your own dots, find your 
own truth. 

972
01:03:51,120 --> 01:03:56,440
But clearly what I can see is 
this massive web, Internet, web,

973
01:03:56,480 --> 01:04:01,600
a web of deception, a spider's 
web of organisations within 

974
01:04:01,600 --> 01:04:05,360
organisations within 
organisations, so many 

975
01:04:05,360 --> 01:04:08,640
organisations and actually 
government departments springing

976
01:04:08,640 --> 01:04:12,640
up all over the place that 
nobody's ever heard of, that you

977
01:04:12,640 --> 01:04:16,560
can't possibly track everything 
all of the time because it's so 

978
01:04:16,560 --> 01:04:19,080
complicated. 
But that's the name of the game,

979
01:04:19,080 --> 01:04:21,080
isn't it? 
Make it as difficult as you can.

980
01:04:21,440 --> 01:04:26,520
But it remains to be said that 
we see you, we know what you're 

981
01:04:26,520 --> 01:04:31,800
doing and we will stand up, we 
will rise up against it and I 

982
01:04:31,800 --> 01:04:35,160
don't think things are going to 
get easier anytime soon. 

983
01:04:35,520 --> 01:04:39,520
However, I think that the 
majority of certainly our 

984
01:04:39,520 --> 01:04:42,640
audience at the UK column, we're
prepared. 

985
01:04:43,160 --> 01:04:47,240
We know what is coming up, so we
can be prepared. 

986
01:04:47,520 --> 01:04:50,560
And I think we have to be 
prepared because someone's going

987
01:04:50,560 --> 01:04:53,480
to have to be there for people 
that aren't prepared. 

988
01:04:53,880 --> 01:04:56,160
There are going to be some 
people that are really scared. 

989
01:04:56,160 --> 01:04:58,600
Moving forward. 
I don't think 2024 is going to 

990
01:04:58,600 --> 01:05:01,560
be a very easy year. 
And some people are going to be 

991
01:05:01,560 --> 01:05:05,000
very scared, very fearful and 
very surprised. 

992
01:05:05,480 --> 01:05:09,280
And it's going to be people like
us and outlets like us that can 

993
01:05:09,280 --> 01:05:13,880
maybe just try and reassure 
people to you're OK, things are 

994
01:05:13,880 --> 01:05:16,640
OK, you'll be OK as long as 
you're prepared. 

995
01:05:16,640 --> 01:05:20,280
Be prepared for everything. 
And now's the time to do it. 

996
01:05:20,280 --> 01:05:23,120
And I always say at the end of 
my blog, Brian, have you got a 

997
01:05:23,120 --> 01:05:26,120
plan? 
Because perhaps now is the time 

998
01:05:26,400 --> 01:05:29,720
to start thinking about 1:00. 
Brilliant. 

999
01:05:29,720 --> 01:05:31,160
Thank. 
Thank you very much for that 

1000
01:05:31,160 --> 01:05:34,200
Debbie. 
Now our our interview, our 

1001
01:05:34,240 --> 01:05:37,080
discussion is going to go out 
over the Christmas holiday 

1002
01:05:37,080 --> 01:05:39,800
period. 
So I have two questions for you.

1003
01:05:39,800 --> 01:05:45,440
One is people are there at home 
Christmas. 

1004
01:05:45,680 --> 01:05:48,880
I'm not sure which day this 
particular interview will go 

1005
01:05:48,880 --> 01:05:51,600
out, but I'm just going to say 
the Christmas holiday period. 

1006
01:05:51,960 --> 01:05:55,640
So the first thing I'm going to 
ask you is what should people be

1007
01:05:56,960 --> 01:06:00,240
doing and saying to their 
families they're together with 

1008
01:06:00,240 --> 01:06:04,720
them this Christmas? 
What would you suggest people 

1009
01:06:04,720 --> 01:06:08,280
should be doing as families and 
friends who were together at the

1010
01:06:08,440 --> 01:06:14,200
Christmas holiday period? 
Well you know my kids have have 

1011
01:06:14,200 --> 01:06:20,160
instructed me that on Christmas 
Day I'm not to say anything 

1012
01:06:20,160 --> 01:06:24,480
controversial and I'm to keep 
Christmas Day as because I mean 

1013
01:06:24,520 --> 01:06:27,000
you know from for many of us 
Christmas can be quite 

1014
01:06:27,000 --> 01:06:29,120
stressful. 
You've got people coming from 

1015
01:06:29,120 --> 01:06:32,720
all over the place, you've on a 
time, it all has the Turkey done

1016
01:06:32,720 --> 01:06:36,520
and dishing everything up on 
time and it can be quite busy. 

1017
01:06:37,440 --> 01:06:41,960
So my kids have said to me, mum,
can we just make Christmas Day a

1018
01:06:41,960 --> 01:06:46,560
day where we enjoy each other 
and we respect each other's 

1019
01:06:46,560 --> 01:06:50,320
opinions and we don't say 
anything and we just enjoy being

1020
01:06:50,320 --> 01:06:54,560
a family for the day and we 
forget about all of this just 

1021
01:06:54,560 --> 01:06:58,200
for one day. 
And so I've promised that I 

1022
01:06:58,200 --> 01:07:01,840
won't talk about anything that 
could be considered 

1023
01:07:01,840 --> 01:07:05,360
controversial or upsetting to 
anybody on Christmas Day. 

1024
01:07:05,560 --> 01:07:08,320
That doesn't mean to say though,
on Boxing Day, I can't. 

1025
01:07:08,320 --> 01:07:14,560
And I think what I'm finding now
is that more people than not are

1026
01:07:14,560 --> 01:07:18,320
asking questions. 
And very often something will 

1027
01:07:18,320 --> 01:07:22,600
come up in a conversation that 
you don't need to bring anything

1028
01:07:22,600 --> 01:07:27,680
up and you just listen to what 
they're saying and then gently, 

1029
01:07:28,000 --> 01:07:33,160
gently, really gently talking 
about what actually is happening

1030
01:07:33,160 --> 01:07:36,000
and asking questions. 
You know, there's nothing quite 

1031
01:07:36,000 --> 01:07:39,640
as it diffuses everything. 
If you ask somebody a question, 

1032
01:07:39,640 --> 01:07:41,760
if you say what do you think 
about what's going on at the 

1033
01:07:41,760 --> 01:07:45,400
moment, or do you think they're 
going to get rid of cash and get

1034
01:07:45,400 --> 01:07:49,800
that other person's opinion? 
And then you've got the start 

1035
01:07:49,880 --> 01:07:52,360
the the icebreaker for a 
conversation. 

1036
01:07:52,760 --> 01:07:56,840
What I've learnt is, because I'm
quite gobby, is that I've got to

1037
01:07:56,840 --> 01:08:02,880
learn to with my family, shut up
a little bit because they get a 

1038
01:08:02,880 --> 01:08:06,440
bit tired of me going on and on 
and on. 

1039
01:08:06,440 --> 01:08:11,600
So I think I've learnt to hold 
my tongue at certain points and 

1040
01:08:11,600 --> 01:08:16,240
learn, discern who's the right 
person to tell when's the right,

1041
01:08:16,439 --> 01:08:19,720
when, when's the right time. 
But certainly have those 

1042
01:08:19,720 --> 01:08:23,200
conversations and if nothing 
else, you know, refer people to 

1043
01:08:23,200 --> 01:08:25,359
the front page of the Times this
week. 

1044
01:08:25,560 --> 01:08:28,240
Because if Oliver Dowden saying 
get prepared and buy your 

1045
01:08:28,240 --> 01:08:30,399
candles, that's always a 
conversation breaker. 

1046
01:08:30,680 --> 01:08:32,000
Are you going to buy your 
candles? 

1047
01:08:32,160 --> 01:08:34,600
Have you bought torches? 
Well, the Deputy Prime Minister 

1048
01:08:34,600 --> 01:08:37,120
says we should. 
What do you think that's all 

1049
01:08:37,120 --> 01:08:39,000
about? 
You know, try to make the 

1050
01:08:39,000 --> 01:08:44,279
conversation as as friendly and 
as gentle as possible. 

1051
01:08:44,279 --> 01:08:47,920
And don't make it hostile. 
Because we're living in, we're 

1052
01:08:47,920 --> 01:08:50,680
living in hostile times. 
We don't need to to make them 

1053
01:08:50,680 --> 01:08:52,399
worse. 
Brilliant. 

1054
01:08:52,399 --> 01:08:58,319
Now the last question is, what 
do you say as a gutsy woman, to 

1055
01:08:58,319 --> 01:09:03,200
other women out there to get 
them to stand up and fight? 

1056
01:09:03,399 --> 01:09:07,800
What do you say? 
I say to every single woman out 

1057
01:09:07,800 --> 01:09:13,399
there, you know, you know deep 
down that your children's future

1058
01:09:13,399 --> 01:09:16,359
is in jeopardy. 
Your grandchildren's future is 

1059
01:09:16,359 --> 01:09:19,399
in jeopardy. 
Your cousin, your sister. 

1060
01:09:19,399 --> 01:09:21,439
We've all got children in our 
family. 

1061
01:09:21,439 --> 01:09:24,240
We owe it. 
We owe it to the next 

1062
01:09:24,240 --> 01:09:27,600
generations coming along. 
We have to stand up. 

1063
01:09:27,600 --> 01:09:30,160
To tell the truth. 
Well, we have to say no. 

1064
01:09:30,479 --> 01:09:33,960
Women, stand with me and just 
say no. 

1065
01:09:33,960 --> 01:09:36,720
Be brave. 
You know we are. 

1066
01:09:36,720 --> 01:09:40,640
We are a strong race. 
The human race is strong. 

1067
01:09:40,840 --> 01:09:44,319
We need other humans as well. 
Humans need humans. 

1068
01:09:44,680 --> 01:09:49,880
So join me in a campaign to 
stand up. 

1069
01:09:50,120 --> 01:09:55,640
Just say no, be brave, stand 
firm and don't be scared. 

1070
01:09:57,480 --> 01:09:59,520
Brilliant. 
Let's end there. 

1071
01:09:59,560 --> 01:10:02,560
We're going to say thank you 
very, very much to all the UK 

1072
01:10:02,560 --> 01:10:05,760
column listeners who've joined 
us today. 

1073
01:10:05,800 --> 01:10:08,120
And it's been fascinating to 
hear. 

1074
01:10:08,120 --> 01:10:12,520
You're talking about yourself, 
Debbie, and the amazing life 

1075
01:10:12,520 --> 01:10:14,680
that you've had. 
You've come through all those 

1076
01:10:14,680 --> 01:10:19,360
trials and tribulations and here
you are at the end of 2023, 

1077
01:10:19,800 --> 01:10:23,520
still fighting and we're 
delighted to have you as part of

1078
01:10:23,520 --> 01:10:27,120
the UK column team. 
So thank you very much. 

1079
01:10:27,880 --> 01:10:29,960
And I'm delighted to be part of 
the team. 

1080
01:10:29,960 --> 01:10:33,200
Thank you so much for giving me 
the opportunity and the platform

1081
01:10:33,560 --> 01:10:36,520
to tell my story. 
And hopefully, if you're out 

1082
01:10:36,520 --> 01:10:39,720
there and you're listening, 
you'll stand up, say no and be 

1083
01:10:39,720 --> 01:10:42,240
brave. 
Great. 

1084
01:10:42,240 --> 01:10:46,520
And so the audience, enjoy your 
Christmas break, be nice to 

1085
01:10:46,520 --> 01:10:50,920
yourself, be kind to your family
and other people and make a 

1086
01:10:50,920 --> 01:10:53,960
little bit of time to say some 
prayers because that's a very 

1087
01:10:53,960 --> 01:10:56,720
important thing to do. 
We'll leave it there. 

1088
01:10:56,800 --> 01:10:57,280
Bye, bye.