Good afternoon to the UK column viewers and listeners, wherever
you are in the world. I'm joined today by another lady
who's unfortunately had the experience of dealing with her
family, so a daughter and social services.
And really what is incredible for me is that over this year in
particular, more and more of these stories have come forward.
Now I've known for many years that there have been some really
troubling incidents with social services in the UK going on.
But it seems really from probably about 6-7 months ago
that a number of individual cases have come to the fore.
People have got in touch with me and the fact that we have more
people now prepared to do interviews, I regard as so
important because it's the only way the truth can come out.
Because as many people know, I'm always saying the thing about
the family courts is that they're secret.
And aside from there being no jury or no press inside the
court, normally the court also enforces reporting restrictions
on not only mums and dads who get directly involved with the
court, but they can also impose those reporting restrictions on
other family members. So it does take courage to speak
out. So today I'm joined by Claire.
Claire contacted me a little while ago.
We've had quite a long conversation on the telephone,
but Claire, you decided that you wanted to speak out on this.
So I'm going to say well done for having the courage to stand
up. And welcome to the UK column.
Thank you. OK, well, the best place to
start is always the beginning. How?
How did things unfold for you as a family?
OK, so in the beginning, social services initially did get
involved when my daughter fell pregnant and they wanted to
check that things were OK with the relationship.
But they checked while her abusive partner was present.
And of course she said that everything was fine and she
didn't disclose them, that there was serious issues.
Then obviously her partner had no part in her first baby's life
at all. Obviously, my granddaughter, he
wasn't interested in being a father.
He didn't have a bond whatsoever, but he made it very
clear to her that if she were to leave the relationship, every
time they had an argument, he would threaten to have her baby
taken away from her, which was very concerning.
So obviously we had no issues at that point.
I was helping raise my daughter's baby with her.
We were like joint parents together, you know, since she
was born. My daughter then got pregnant
again, which he did not meet that baby at all.
He wasn't interested. He'd moved on with someone else,
a different partner. So obviously up until then we
had no issues. We were just living a happy,
happy life, you know, both the children.
My daughter reached the point where we decided we wanted a
fresh start because he was turning up outside our house,
revving his motorbike. And it was quite distressing for
my daughter because she felt like he was trying to get her
attention. And we also had, unfortunately,
his abusive aunt was living opposite us too.
And that had caused my daughter quite a lot of distress because
she didn't feel like she was quite free from the abusive
relationship. So we decided to move and we
thought we'd move hundreds of miles up north to protect the
children and to protect my daughter so that we could start
a new life so she could be happy and live in peace away from that
threat. Because obviously he was a
danger being around the children with everything that he had done
to my daughter, including strong violence, coercive control,
stealing all her money, also stealing his daughter's money,
threatening to kill her, saying that he'd actually planned her
death. It was very, very highly
concerning behaviour. So before we moved, my daughter
reported the whole theme to the police.
She actually had a six hour interview with the police and
the policeman who actually interviewed her was so angry by
all the incidences that she reported about their entire
relationship and he wanted to go and arrest him there and then.
My daughter was too scared of the repercussions because of his
aunt. They've been opposite us and we
hadn't moved at that point. And she didn't know what he was
going to do because he was in contact with some very kind of
dubious characters as well, which he threatened to
obviously, you know, to set on to my daughter in some of their
arguments. So my daughter decided not to
press charges, but she made it very clear to the police that we
were moving hundreds of miles up north for her protection and for
her children's protection. And we were reassured by the
police that we were doing the right thing, that if he was to
find our location, we could get a non molestation order and a
restraining order and that we were doing the right thing.
You know, my daughter asked many times, am I doing the right
thing? You know, is this OK?
Can I do this? And she was reassured by the
police, Yes, you can. Yes, this is good.
You're doing the right thing. Can you just come in there?
Can I can I ask, did you get a crime number when when you
reported this? Was everything done properly by
the police at the time? Yeah, was yeah, it was reported
there was a crime number. We had the P CS name as well and
his number and he assured my daughter it would stay on file
and if she ever wanted to press further charges that he could
reopen it and take further action against her ex partner.
Right. So we felt very reassured that
there was no it'll be no issues there.
Right. So you, you move hundreds of
miles away too, which is which is quite a major thing to have
to do in order to get away from somebody.
But I understand why you why you'd want to do it.
So what? What happens when you move?
It was life changing because obviously we'd left behind all
the friends that we knew there and our family and we obviously
had to up, you know, everything. I have adult sons as well who
decided to come with us also because obviously they didn't
want to be, you know, left behind.
So it was a big life changing thing for all of us.
We knew we were making the right decision because we were
thinking about the children. We wanted them to live in peace.
And I didn't want my daughter living with the threat of, you
know, constantly worrying that he was going to turn up outside
the house to be intimidating because it wasn't the fact that
he didn't want to have contact with the children.
He wanted to make his presence known in an intimidating, you
know, fashion outside our our property.
Right, but I I believe that your son's also experienced some of
his behaviour directly. Yes, he was actually residing in
my property for about 6 months while him and my daughter were
trying to make a go of things. And what had happened on one
particular day is that he'd been particularly abusive on this day
and she'd asked him multiple times to leave the property and
he said no. He refused point blank that he
was not going to leave. He was laughing at her, mocking
her, and then he started throwing her phone and throwing
items of wet clothing at her and threatening that he was going to
take her baby away. So at this point, after this had
been going on for about half an hour, my son decided to go in
there and confront him and tell him he needed to leave because
he wasn't listening to his sister.
And obviously he was very concerned about her being abused
and her, you know, she was very distraught, very upset.
In which case a scuffle then broke out between him and my son
and he actually got my son in a neck lock with his legs and
started to strangle him because he had these type of skills
where he knows the amount of pressure that he can use with
his legs to. He'd done some martial arts
training. Fighting, yeah cage fighting
skills he had. So my son was obviously forced
to use self defence to get his legs off otherwise he was going
to be strangled. To which case I then ran into
the room and said to him leave the house now and shouted at
him. He finally left our property and
what he did he ran straight and called the police on my son and
said that my son had assaulted him.
So the police did not press any charges against my son.
They said it was very clearly self defence and we'd explained
the whole incident of what had happened, that he was refusing
to leave the house and obviously my son had had to intervene to
go in there and there was no charges brought against my son.
Right. This this indicates that this
this individual was not only prepared to be abusive to to a
young woman, but he was also prepared to take on a male as
well. Yeah, yeah, he was.
And he felt, he felt quite angry that obviously my son had
intervened in protecting his sister.
Yes. And just to clarify on the
children at this this stage, was was this this the abuse
happening while there was just one child or was there two
children? Yeah, the abuse was happening
when there was only one child my daughter fell pregnant with.
Well, technically it was their third one.
She actually miscarried in between when he was particularly
abusive and very unempathetic and uncompassionate when she
went through the miscarriage. But when she was pregnant with
their third child that she actually gave birth to, she did
not see him at all. He was actually.
He moved on to another relationship with another young
girl when she was halfway through the pregnancy.
Right. And, and, and that has been that
had been part of trying to make a girl with this very difficult
relationship. Yes, because what he would do is
every time she broke free he would try and manipulate her
back and he would say that he'd changed and that he was going to
be a good partner and a good father.
Although he never had a bond. He didn't do any of the changing
nappies or feeding bottles. Not one single parental duty did
he do and he didn't have a bond either.
He wasn't interested from day one with his daughter at all.
In fact, he he spent all her baby money that she had in her
bank account and also he wouldn't even buy her a birthday
present on her first birthday, which was quite telling as well.
Right, so by the time you move Claire, how, how old were the
two children then? So my daughter's son was born in
the late September and we moved February the following year.
So he'd never met his son and he hadn't seen his daughter since
May that year when my daughter cut all contact and we moved in
the February. And how was your granddaughter
then? She was 2.
Right. So 2 very young children,
basically, Yeah. So, so you, you move away.
You've it's not as though you just disappeared.
You'd actually discuss with the police this is the course of
action that you thought was best and they they agreed with you.
And of course, as you've said, if, if there was to be further
incidents, then then you, you could take action through the
courts to get some protection. So you move, huge family
upheaval and and what happens then?
Well, we were living really in peace and my daughter actually
started healing because obviously she'd been through
quite a lot of trauma through what he had put her through and
she was really concentrating on just being a really good mum,
you know, to her babies and you know, being in a new environment
and putting it all behind her. She didn't have the threats or
the worry about him turning up. She felt really safe and at
peace and both her children were really thriving.
They were doing really well. They were very healthy.
They were never I'll, they'd been seen by the health visitor
3 times and on those 3 occasions she'd said that they were both
meeting all their milestones. They were very healthy, they
were thriving and there was no 'cause for concern whatsoever
and that they had both had a very loving bond with me, the
grandmother and with their mum. She's obviously took note of
that. How long were things quiet then?
You you move and as far as you're concerned, things have
really settled down and presumably you feel the
pressures coming off. How?
How long did that last? Did that piece last for?
So we moved in the February and the first we knew that there was
a Kafkaas officer involved was in October that same year.
And she randomly turned up at the door.
And it brought all my daughter's trauma back, flooding back,
because she was wondering what on earth she was doing on our
doorstep because obviously had been no cause for concern from
the children. And as far as she was concerned,
we were living a new life, we told the police.
So we had no idea why she was there.
And Claire as a as a family, have you had any, any previous
interaction with social services, CAF, gas?
No, only when my daughter first got with her partner because she
was underage, they wanted to question whether she'd been
coerced into unlawful sexual intercourse.
So obviously what they did though, they actually asked her
in the presence of her ex, which is not very wise thing to do
because if a young girl is being coerced into a relationship,
she's not going to tell you in front of her abusive partner.
So obviously she's everything was fine and there was no
concerns and she wanted to make a happy family.
She's obviously ultimately what she did want.
She did want, you know, them to be a happy family together, yes.
Well, thank, thank you for saying that.
The reason I, I ask that question is because I know that
in many of these cases where social services get involved in
a very direct and, and I think a lot of families would say
aggressive way there, there has been previous interaction with
them. But in your case, you know,
you've explained that actually that that that was a, that was a
relatively normal interaction. They were simply checking
everything was OK. Although as you point out, they
didn't do it in a very sensible way, bearing in mind the
relationship, right? So Kafkaas appears and they
start to ask questions. Yeah, she was not a very nice
lady. When she came to her doorstep
she was very cold and she was very rude to my daughter.
And when my daughter burst into tears and was very distraught,
visibly distraught, and she said that she'd obviously fled her
abuser, the Kafkaas officer turned around and said to her
alleged abuse in a very patronising time, which was, in
my opinion, a disgusting way to behave to someone that's just
escaped domestic abuse to them. Basically, you're basically
calling them a liar by saying alleged abuse.
You know, in a very patronising way.
And it, and it's also incredible, Claire, because
Kafka's first duty is, is the protection of the child.
It's not protection of the parent, whether it's the mother
or the father. So she that apparently court
papers have been served to our next door neighbour, which is
very strange because obviously we said, well, we haven't
received any court papers whatsoever, which we hadn't.
We even checked with our neighbour and they said they
haven't received any either. My daughter was obviously very
concerned about where they'd got our address from, and she said
that she traced my daughter's address through her benefits.
Well. So.
So why did the Kafkaes lady actually say she was there?
Because it turns out my daughter's ex had actually, as
soon as he'd been told by his aunt, who obviously lived
opposite us at the time, he got told that we'd moved out.
So obviously he then didn't know where we were.
So he went to the courts the following month in March, and we
moved in February to file the custody of the children to gain
control of them. OK, so so he makes a complaint
and then the next minute Kafkaes is involved and they've already
started court proceedings in what presumably was going to be
a custody battle. Yeah, obviously we didn't know
because we hadn't received any of the court papers whatsoever
because they didn't have our address.
And then the Kafkaas officer claimed that one of the court
letters had gone to our next door neighbour, which is very
odd because if they knew that, then why didn't they then serve
another one to our address? So that in itself was very
strange. Can I just add there and, and to
formally serve papers, they've got to be served to the
individual. They can't even be left outside
somebody's door. They've got to be put in the
hand of an individual. That's what serving serving
legal documents is is all about. So obviously we had no
knowledge. I then decided to try and get
some type of advice because, you know, I was concerned for my
daughter and for my grandchildren because, you know,
they were very happy and settled in their new life.
And we didn't, you know, we were very concerned about the
upheaval of what was going to happen next.
We didn't really know, you know, what was going to happen.
So I actually sought legal advice from, can I name the
people, the people's lawyer, and they advised me not to interact
with the social services. They said not to consent to, you
know, to any assessments or anything like that or if they
came to our door again, to just tell them that we don't consent.
So obviously that's what I believe that obviously we were
supposed to have done. How did that progress?
Then this lady disappears. What's What's the next thing
that happens? So then we didn't hear anything
for a whole year, and we actually thought that everything
was all peaceful and calm. We thought, oh good, you know,
she's obviously gone and looked at the police files and
discovered that actually there's, you know, six hours of
statements from my daughter explaining, you know, what had
gone on with all the abuse. So they must have obviously
decided that, you know, that he shouldn't be around the
children. That's what we thought.
So we thought because obviously we hadn't heard for a whole
year, that's a long time to then pass not hearing anything.
So next thing we heard was July the following year.
We received a letter through the Post from the health visitor.
Saying that she wanted to perform my grandson's two year
check. Now, what was alarm bells for me
is that it was about 3 months earlier than his second year
birthday, which was very strange because as I'm a mother of four,
I've obviously had experience with all my children being seen
by the health visitor and they never ever come early for a two
year check. It's always when they're two or
after they're two just because otherwise they've not
necessarily met all the milestones that they're supposed
to be reaching, you know, by the age of 2.
So for us, that was a bit, for me, I felt a bit concerned
because I thought that's very strange.
But we decided to allow the health to come anyway to see
what it was all about, why she was coming early.
When she turned up in July, she knocked on the door and I opened
the door and all of a sudden, social worker was hiding down
her alleyway. She suddenly ran to the front
door. And the health is to look really
sheepish. And I said, have you not come
for my grandson's two year check?
Because I thought it was a bit strange that it's early.
And she said, no, I'm sorry. She said the social worker
wanted me to arrange it early so she could see the children.
She was desperate to see the children.
So obviously, we were very, you know, upset by this.
And we felt like our trust had been betrayed.
So we didn't allow the social work to come into the house, but
we did allow the health visitor because obviously we didn't have
an issue with the health visitor.
She'd seen the children previously three times.
But as she entered her house, she told us that she would not
be able to carry out the two year check because it was too
early. So obviously we were very kind
of shocked thinking, well, why have you said you're coming for
the two year check if you're not?
And that's a blatant lie and deception.
So of course that would make anyone doubt, you know, you'd
feel a betrayal and kind of a lack of trust there because you
know you've been lied to and deceived.
Well, and and these two are supposedly professionals in
child health, health, child healthcare and child protection.
So you would expect them to be meticulous in in doing their job
in the proper way. You've used the right
terminology because essentially they use deceit in order to get
into your home. And then it was from what you've
said, it's clear to me that the health visitor was being
manipulated by the social worker.
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So then what happened?
We told the health visitor that obviously, you know, we weren't
happy about what she'd done. We said, you know, you've really
kind of betrayed our trust here because, you know, we thought
that you were coming for the two year check and we thought it was
strange anyway because it was early.
She then informed us she would be coming back in November to
actually carry out his two year check and she asked us if we
would agree to that. So we were kind of in two minds
because we were in a stage of shock about what had just
happened. So we kind of said, OK, well,
yeah, we'll let you come in November.
So after they'd left, we kind of thought about it a bit more.
And we were thinking, you know, this just doesn't seem right,
you know, it seems very, very deceitful.
So in November, she turned up at the door and my daughter asked
me to go and speak to her. She said, can you tell her mum
that I'm not happy for her to continue seeing my children just
because I feel really deceived and let down, you know, so I'm
not going to continue letting her see the children.
So obviously I went and explained the situation to the
health visitor and to my absolute shock she was really
understanding and she said to me, Oh yes, she said, I know
about these mums that are fleeing to other countries to
protect their children from social services.
So I was like. Wow.
Like, you know, you've heard about this.
So obviously I was shocked she told me this.
So she said, don't worry, she said, I'll write you a glowing
report because I know the children are very well looked
after. You know, they've got no issues.
So I was really reassured by that and I thought, well, that's
good. You know, she knows about what's
going on. There's obviously something very
kind of dubious going on with the social services and she's
willing to write us a glowing report.
So obviously that's going to go in our favour because they'll
know there's no concerns. So then she left and we felt
reassured that there was no issues.
Then Fast forward to February the following year, we had
decided to go for a break and we did a little bit of travelling
with the children, me and my daughter and the two
grandchildren because we just wanted to get away, you know,
for a break to kind of like you do from everyday life.
And the first we knew that there was anything wrong is I got a
very urgent panicked call from my one of my sons.
And he said to me, mum, the police have broken down the
door. And I was absolutely shocked and
in horror. And I said, what do you mean
they've broken down the door? And he said his partner had been
in the house and. That's that's your house.
That's your house you're talking.
About my house, she was house sitting my house while he was at
work. She phoned him to say the police
have just some. Well, she didn't know it was the
police. First of all, she didn't know
who it was. She said somebody has just
broken the door down and she was obviously terrified because she
was upstairs by herself. So because they hadn't announced
that it was the police, there was no announcement made that it
was the police. So obviously my son thankfully
was just round the corner in his work van.
He was able to get dropped off outside the house.
He came in to find out what was going on and there was lots of
police in the house. They put him in handcuffs
unlawfully. They did not announce who they
were. They didn't read out any of his
rights whatsoever. They didn't tell him why they
were putting him in handcuffs. They then did an unlawful body
search on him as well. And so obviously he was very
distressed. They then started obviously
interrogating him and his partner and he then got me on
the phone because he was concerned.
He was like, mum, I don't know what, you know, what's going on
here, like what do I do kind of thing.
So at this point we were in Scotland and obviously we became
very upset when we could see what was going on and hear what
was going on with the police. And he'd been repeatedly telling
them that he didn't want the social workers to be let into
the house as well because two social workers had turned up and
they were trying to gain access to the property.
And he told them very clearly that he didn't consent.
So they'd said that they've been told by a particular social
worker, the same one that's been involved the whole way through,
that the children hadn't been seen since last year and there
was a serious cause for concern of their lives.
Basically. That's why they had the reason
to break our door down. That's what they said.
Claire, were these police plainclothes in plainclothes?
There was a mixture, there was a mixture of uniform and my son
said also there was a couple that were not identifiable.
They were wearing just suits and he didn't know who they were.
They didn't identify themselves. So there was a mixture.
No warning is shouted. It's the police, you know, open
your door. The first thing your son's
partner hears is the front door has been smashed in and she's
got individuals coming into the house.
That that's truly shocking. Yeah, she was terrified.
She didn't know what was happening.
And obviously she got on the phone immediately to my son, and
it was just, you know, by God's grace that he was around the
corner and he was able to get here very, very quickly.
But then they then put him through trauma too, because
obviously they put him in handcuffs and unlawfully gave
him a body search to find out if he had any items on him.
He contacts you when you you learn what's going on and what
what happens then. So then they made it clear that
they wanted to see the children. They said that it had been
reported that the children had not been seen since last year
and they wanted to do a welfare cheque.
So they'd already been threatened in coercing my son
because my son was a landscape gardener, he had axes and he had
some other like bushcraft tools and things like that.
And we also had some pellet guns in the property as well.
Now they're perfectly lawful. Nothing was wrong with them at
all. But they started saying to my
son, well, you know, we don't know if there's been a new
legislation that's been passed. They said some of these items
might actually be illegal now. So if that's the case, you know,
we can actually technically arrest you and check, you know,
if they're illegal. So they put him into a corner
where he felt like they were trying to manipulate him.
Very, very wrong. He had the whole thing recorded
as well. And obviously that's why he then
was, you know, eager for us to kind of share our location of
where we were. And my daughter obviously felt,
you know, a kind of A cause for concern for her brother,
thinking, you know, I don't want him to go through anything
unlawful, especially after what they've they've already done,
you know, so she she agreed to the police.
She said, OK, you can send police around to our travel
lodge where we're staying right now in Scotland, and you can
check that my children are both fine.
And they agreed that once they've done that and they found
out the children were OK, that would be it.
They would leave us alone because they'd be satisfied that
there was no 'cause of concern. So obviously, even though we
were shaken up, we were kind of reassured, like there's nothing
to worry about. They then sent round very, very
quickly to Scottish police to our travel lodge and the police
spoke to my daughter and by then my other two sons had joined us
because they'd come up on the train to meet us in Scotland.
All four of us got questioned, me and my daughter and my two
other sons, you know, about what we were doing up there and they
wanted to look at the children. They said, oh, the children look
very, you know, well fed, they look healthy.
There's no cause for concerns. We can see you've got lots of
food here as well. So, you know, they had
absolutely no concerns. But they said they wanted to get
2 Scottish social workers down to to the travel lodge just to
double check that they had no concerns as well.
We waited for these two social workers to arrive.
It took quite most of the day, you know this time in the
Travelodge of them talking to us and then waiting for the social
workers to arrive. When they arrived there was 2
ladies that turned up, I cannot recall their names but they
seemed very surprised about why they were there in the 1st
place. And they said we don't really
know why we're here, but you know, we can clearly see there's
nothing wrong with the children. You know, they're both look
perfectly, you know, well cared for, well fed and you've got
plenty of food, they've got good clothes and, you know, no
concerns whatsoever. So again, we were reassured
there's no issues. They've got no 'cause for
concern. So they said to my daughter,
listen, we've been informed by your social worker where you
live that you've got a court hearing on the Tuesday.
Now this was Friday that this happened.
So we knew that obviously we had the whole weekend and up to
Tuesday, she said, to get back to our local town where there
was going to be a court hearing. So that was it.
So we thought, OK, we were really shaken up by the whole
day because it had been, you know, obviously very traumatic,
as you can imagine, you know, having my house broken into,
seeing my son go through that and then obviously them coming
and kind of interrogating us to find out what we were doing.
So but then we felt kind of a little bit at ease because we
thought, right, we can just relax now and just make sure we
get back for the court hearing on Tuesday and find out what's
going on, what all this is about.
The next morning I woke up and I had this really bad feeling in
my stomach. I couldn't shake what it was,
but I just had this really bad feeling, like something bad was
going to happen. But I didn't tell the rest of my
family because I didn't want to kind of alarm them and I thought
maybe it was because of the previous day.
Anyway, about 12:00 midday is a Bang Bang Bang Bang bang at our
travel lodge and two different Scottish social workers turned
up, accompanied by around six. Police first of all.
And they said they had an emergency court order to take
the children and they demanded my grandson was asleep on the
bed having a nap. And they they demanded that we
get them dressed and ready and put them in the car ready to be
driven off now bearing in mind that they had never been.
Separated from us, Not for one single.
Day and one single night, we were obviously very, very
distraught and we were really worried about our grandchildren.
Well, my grandchildren and my granddaughter was only four and
she started shouting at them saying I don't want to go with
the strange dangers, I don't want to go with the strange
dangers. And she was really visibly
distressed and my grandson was still sleeping.
I don't know how he was still sleeping, but he was still
sleeping. And they, they didn't give me
the court order that they literally threw it across the
bed in an envelope and I kept. Saying to them, you know, you're
not going to read it out to me. You're not going to show me what
what it is that you're presenting me with.
And they said you can read it if you want.
So I said. Well, can you let me read it
then? So I opened the envelope and I
start reading it and it said that they had an emergency court
order to take the children and it wasn't signed.
There was no signature on it. There was no court stamp.
And so immediately that that got my attention because I thought,
you know, this doesn't seem legitimate, like this seems
fraudulent to me. So I, I kept questioning and I
said, look, there's no signature on us.
How is this right? And I kept trying to bargain
with them saying, you know, like, I don't understand why
this is happening. I said, do you not understand
there's no cause for concern of why the children are with us?
Like why are you taking them? And they kept.
Saying that they were following orders, they'd been given a
court order and they had to basically abide by it.
And I kept saying, could you not use your moral compass?
I said, you must know this is wrong.
And I explained to them about the domestic.
I said, look, you've got it all filed.
I said, you know, I said we not only fold it at our original
hometown, I said, but also my daughter went to our local town
when we moved and she filed more reports because her ex had been
harassing. And stalking us on social media
trying to find out our location. And she'd been there again and
she'd also given them another four to six hours again of
further statement. So, you know, we thought the
whole police force should be aware of our situation and the
danger and the threat to the children from her ex partner.
And so, you know, to us, it didn't make any.
Sense as to why they were coming to take the children.
Claire, as as you talk through this, I'm, I'm thinking of other
cases where the mums, usually the mums and mums and dads in,
in a couple of them where children were taken in this sort
of very brutal and cold way. And I and I, I know from, from
the time 11 family, we were very close to and I absolutely saw
the trauma that this caused not only the parents, but also of
course, the children. So the child protection system
causing the children fear and anxiety supposedly to protect
them. It's, it's quite bizarre, but
the callousness of it, I understand the callousness of it
because I have seen it. And your, your daughter, I think
we should emphasise at this stage is still a very, very
young mum. She wasn't very old, was she?
No, she was 20 at the time when it happened and she was so
traumatised. She actually had a proper panic
attack and she started hyperventilating and the police
said to me, sort her out. That was their exact words, sort
your daughter out. There was no assistance.
There was no one rushing to her aid.
You know, she was hyperventilating.
And I was expected to sort her out at the same time as keeping
my grandchildren calm and trying to keep calm myself.
And they were telling me if I didn't hurry up and get the
children dressed and ready, that I was basically interfering and
I was obstructing what they've been told to do and that I would
be facing arrest and spending the whole weekend in the police
cell. That's what they told me.
And then they said you won't be there then to support your
family and to help them get the children back.
Everything about the police and social services action is
threatening, it's abusive. And I am also reading between
the lines a little bit, but also knowing some things about how
these things get done, that there's a, a psychological
aspect to it as well. You're being psychologically
bullied and what, what do they do?
You get the children dressed and what happens?
Yeah, at this point, my grandson, he woke up and he was
wondering what was going on. He started getting a bit
distressed because there were so many strangers all around.
Now bearing in mind my grandson has always had autistic traits
since he was born, he was basically non verbal and
obviously he'd never been away from me or my daughter and the
same with my granddaughter, they hadn't either.
So being faced with all these strangers demanded that they
were being handed over. And obviously my granddaughter,
she was very aware of what they were saying.
She kept saying mummy I don't want to go, I don't want to
leave you. She said I I don't want to go
with the stranger dangers and she screwed up the court order
and she threw it at the police. She was so upset and she was
aware that it was to do with this bit of paper.
Yeah, take, take, take your time, Claire, because these
things are really difficult. It was the most traumatic thing
we've ever been through in our lives and it dragged out for
about an hour and a half, which again, they got angry with me.
Because I they expected us to just literally.
Get the children dressed and just hand them over.
That's what they expected. And even though I was very calm
and I was staying calm and I was trying to reason with them and
trying to tell them the facts, they still said that I
obstructed and that I was making them worse.
They said I was causing the grandchildren upset and it
wasn't. It's because my granddaughter
knew exactly what was going on. She could hear them saying you
need to put the children in the car.
You need to get them ready to go.
You know, my daughter kept saying can I come to?
And they gave my daughter false hope because she said please
don't let me be separated from them.
They've never been away from me before ever in their lives.
And they said they were going to ask somebody if she could come
in the car with them, which was a lie.
We realised afterwards it was a blatant lie.
They had no intention of my daughter going with them.
But they gave her false hope and she kept saying can you phone up
now? And they said this is what they
said, which is really callous. And we have all this recorded on
video. They said that as soon as the
children were in the car, they were going to make the phone
call and find out if my daughter could come as well.
So obviously, as soon as the children were in the car, they
speed off at lightning speed. Like I'm talking super fast.
It was like something out of a movie.
You know, there was no kind of safety, like driving off slowly.
They literally just speed like they were fleeing the scene, you
know, of a crime. It was like that.
And then my daughter just burst into floods of tears and we
would just stood there just hugging each other and just
crying, you know, and I and I, I shouted out to a member of
public. I said they're stealing our
children. And, and I was told to be quiet.
It was I wanted someone to intervene to help because I was
thinking this isn't right. I was thinking, how can this be
happening? I couldn't get my head around
how it could be happening. And then my daughter got a phone
call and they said, sorry, you're not allowed to come.
And we knew that that had been their intention all along, but
they gave her that false hope as well, which was like.
Extra you know it's. Just extra vindictive.
It's like, why would you do that?
Why would you give a mother false hope they can come with
their children and then say, Oh no, actually you can't.
They obviously knew that she wasn't going to go with them in
the first place. Well, this, This is why I
mentioned the psychological aspect to you, because very
often when when I talk to mum's parents that have been involved
in these cases, they talk about this very sinister use of
psychology, lies, twisting of the facts, choice of words,
which is disturbing to the parents.
And it, it's clear that the use of the, these sort of
psychological tactics are not accidental.
They, they seem to be. It's some parents have described
it, that it, it was almost as though they were using a
template in what they did and what they said.
But you, you as a parent were a target for some really
unpleasant psychological tricks. That's how it seems to me.
Yeah, none of it made any sense at all.
And The thing is. Claire, sorry, just to come come
back in. What?
What reaction did you get from the police?
The car goes with the two children and you're obviously
left there with some of the police officers.
What? What do they say to you?
So I told them all that they were going to be held
accountable. I looked at them all and I said
you're going to be held accountable by the Most High.
I said you think that you're not?
I said, you know, you, everyone knows like you're all going to
be held accountable because I truly believe that you know what
you do in this life you're going to pay the price for.
And I said each one of you, I said, that's been complicit in
this because I said, none of you have stopped this from happening
when you could have done because I've told you the truth and you
could have looked into it and you could have stopped this.
And they all just looked at me. And one of the police officers
actually turned around and said, oh, don't worry, they won't be
going. Anywhere near your daughter's ex
abuser. That's what he said I had.
I have him on film saying that. Right.
Were they all? Were they all males?
Mostly males, but there were a couple of females.
But there were the majority, the ones who were doing the talking
and the one who was mocking my daughter as well.
He was male. Can you please leave now in
Jesus Christ's name? You do not have the authority to
take her children away from her. She's the mother.
No, we're not receiving it. We're not accepting it.
We haven't consented. You don't have the authority
over gods to take her children. Can you leave now?
No, You need to leave now. The name of Jesus Christ's name.
Please leave. I need you to leave now like.
Three one minute right I. Need you to leave.
What we're all doing here is just trying, we're trying to
kind of tone it down a wee bit, OK, and see the see the see the
fact that we're still going on about it just now we were.
Shorts. Bring it down a wee minute, OK
'cause you'll need to talk to each other quite civilly in the
now, right? What we'll do is try and not
upset the children anyway. It's not legal.
Can you listen? To 3 minutes, I'm I'm still, I'm
still talking. I'm still talking.
She has separation anxiety. They have.
Daughters these two this needs to be done OK these two they.
Can't. Yeah.
They don't have authority. You don't have authority.
That's not authority. It's corruption.
This is corruption. It's not.
It's unlawful. This is illegal.
It's illegal. Listen to me because we're
repeating here they're. Stealing children.
You're stealing children. You're kidnapping them.
These two individuals. Without our consent?
No. You're kidnapping them.
You.
Are kidnapping them now. I need you to leave in Jesus
Christ name. I need you to leave in Jesus
Christ name now please. You are kidnapping the children.
This is kidnapping. You can't kidnap children from
their mother. That's evil.
St Judge sitting in private. No official court stamp which
makes it immediately illegal. Can we can we focus on the
content please? No, because it means this.
Can you? Can you focus on the right
thing? The applicant local authority in
Sheffield City Council. Can you photograph this please?
There's no official court, No official court stuff.
I'm just recording. That.
You're not taking. The.
Official people here from the police on the social care to
take the children. And there's no official court
stuff and there's no waiting signature.
Is it possible for Bethany to go with the children?
That would make it a lot easier. To see if that's.
But there's probably a good possibility that can happen.
But this is. Which stomach does she?
Before. Which toys would you like us to
take? I need.
To find all his Thomas ones. This is so wrong.
Are you not?
Are you not checking to see if Bethany?
Can go with that. I just said that to.
You. No, no.
But I'm just clarifying that with the social workers.
I love you. Have you got your baby?
What about the rest of the toilet if they've got their
bottles? Anything you guys can have a
look at and bring a? Spice the next way they put.
Bottles. Bottles.
Upstairs. Come on, can you go?
Have you got the key? Jamie, go grab Bethen spine.
Be braved on in The Cave. I will find you 32.
I will get you back. I promise.
I promise I'm going to get you back.
Give me a kiss. I love you.
You're 2 going to be together. Please stay together for me and
take care of, take care of you. Love you both
so much please. No, no, no, there was a phone
call. I'm going to phone my manager on
my way back and if you can travel, but I need to speak to
Sheffield as well because they have to allow you to return with
the kids. So I need to ask him.
So it might be another 10 or 15 minutes.
OK, I'll be back in touch, be in line for the next.
Two years. When we see his little.
Bethany has just been served with these court orders at a
hotel in Scotland with a court case that she's been told she
has to attend and it's already happening.
So she has absolutely no opportunity of getting there to
be heard. It says it's today, 20, the 23rd
of February 2024 at 2:00 PM and the time now is 230, 2:30 PM.
And they've literally the woman's just knocked on the door
and served this with Bethany. And she said, I'm sorry that
it's already happening now, but I've been told to serve you with
these papers. The children are gone.
You as a family must have been there.
Absolutely shell shocked. And what?
What do you do next? We didn't know what to do.
We were literally in pieces and we were obviously in Scotland
and the children had just got into a stranger's car that we
had no idea who they were. We didn't know where they were
going, but my daughter, my daughter was given a phone
number and she kept on texting the number saying where are my
children, where are they going? And she wasn't getting any
response and no replies whatsoever.
We found out afterwards that that was actually the social
workers number. So she was supposed to have had
a duty to inform my daughter of where her children were.
And she was not responding to any of the messages.
And she, in fact, she didn't respond until later on, very
later on at night. Because obviously we then had
the real difficulty of getting ourselves in our state of
absolute upset and distraught. We had to try and get back.
We had to get all our stuff packed up.
From where we were. Staying on holiday and we had to
then get to the train station and my daughter had the double
push chair for the children. Which she then had to put a
luggage on that and wheel that back, which again, was really,
really hard for her because pushing an empty double
pushchair without your children. Is is horrific.
Nothing. Any mother that can understand
that it's like going to a hospital to have, you know, a
child and then coming back with an empty car seat, you know,
without the child is it's horrific.
So that in itself was really, really difficult.
And then she didn't get told until really late at night that
the children had been handed over to her ex abuser who didn't
know them was a complete stranger to both children.
Just tell me that again, when when were they they handed over
to the to the partner? So we didn't find out until
after how it had actually panned out, but what we were told is
that the children had been driven directly from Scotland.
To Sheffield and was then they were met by her ex abuser.
He then got on a train and took them directly back to where he
lives in Essex. All on the same day, which would
have been incredibly distressing for both the children,
especially being handled from stranger to stranger.
Without knowing any of them, I'm wondering where we were.
Yeah. And as, as you were telling
this, this story clear, and particularly when you get to
this bit, I'm sat here and I'm thinking, I wonder how the
audience is reacting to this. Because I can imagine there are
people saying, I'd say, I just can't believe this.
I can't believe what I'm hearing.
I'm not saying that to doubt you.
I I absolutely believe what you're talking about because
I've heard it so many times before.
But I can imagine people in the audience absolutely stunned
themselves to hear what what you've just described.
And yet this is reality. This is what goes on in in the
child protection system. So how, how, how does it
progress from there? Is, is there, is there a court?
Is there a court date already set?
When, when does that appear? When the details of the court
appear. They did have a court hearing
and. The really tragic thing is that
we were kept away from the children for a whole month after
they were taken, which is probably one of the most
distressing parts for the children, especially because,
you know, for me, what goes through my head is them thinking
that we've abandoned them and wondering.
Where their family is because they did not know their dad at
all. My granddaughter had no
recollection of him because she'd only seen him when she was
a very, very tiny baby, so she didn't know his face.
She didn't know any of his relatives.
Obviously my grandson had never met him, so they were all
strangers completely and then being kept away from us.
For a whole. Month and when we turned up at
the court hearing we were appointed A solicitor which we
thought was from the Christian Aid people, but it turned out
she didn't even know who the Christian Aid was and it became
very apparent from the OnStar that she was very eager to
follow instructions given to her.
By the court. And not to look any of my
daughter's evidence, which obviously was highly, highly
concerning to both me and my daughter, because we thought it
was going to be straightforward. We thought they're going to look
at all the police reports, They're going to see that we
fled domestic. The police knew about it, and
they're going to say there's been a terrible mistake and
we're going to give the children back.
That's in our minds. That's what we thought was going
to happen and it couldn't have been further from the truth.
Right. And, and was there just one
court hearing and, and yes, the other question which goes the
tell us about the court hearing, why were you in court ultimately
why, why did, why did they bring you into that court hearing?
OK, so we found out afterwards that my daughter's ex abuser had
actually filed lies against our family and said that we were a
danger to the children because he didn't believe that they were
having access to the doctors and he didn't believe that they were
going to be in school. There was and also he was very
concerned that they hadn't been vaccinated.
That was his top priority. So apparently that gives the
social services the impression that you are not looking up your
children's welfare by those 3. Factors, yes.
And I've, I've certainly heard that before.
And I think there are many parents that have been under
pressure because if they've had any reservations about
vaccinating their children, that seems to almost put them on a
target list or it certainly worsens relations with social
services. So the in the court hearing then
I'll try not to pre empt you here.
All right, but why don't I say it?
I would assume that your solicitor doesn't present any of
the key evidence showing your side of the story.
None whatsoever. No, in fact, they had it.
It's like they already had it laid out exactly what they were
going to do. It's like it had been all
planned and they were sticking to the plan.
That's the impression I got. It's it seems like they wanted
to transfer the children to his custody.
For what reasons? They obviously we can only guess
what reasons they had there, but they definitely weren't
interested in looking at any of the facts whatsoever.
In fact, when I looked through the case, I was horrified that
the whole case was built on lies, slander, opinions and
assumptions all the way through the entire case file.
Right. And and was it a full days
hearing? No, it was literally about an
hour. That was it.
And what and what was the result?
So the solicitor came out and she said something very
concerning to my daughter. She said the court had said that
as the children had been taken, it was probably going to be too
traumatic to return them all the way back to where we were
because of the distance and the fact they'd already removed them
from us. And so that to us was a massive
alarm bell because it didn't sound like they had any
intention of returning the children.
You say the solicitor came out. Were you and your daughter not
in the court? Maybe you wouldn't have been,
but I would have expected your daughter to have actually been
in the court. So what it turned out is that
while we were sitting outside the court, she was going back
and forth having discussions with the cult without my
daughter being present. So I, I'm obviously not clued up
on how courts work with the family court and I had no
inclination about what goes on and how it is actually, you
know, supposed to unfold. But this is what was happening.
She was going back and forth, talking, two people in the
family court and coming back and relaying information to me and
my daughter who was sitting outside.
This, this is incredible, Claire, because out of all the
things I've heard about family courts, I've never heard about
this sort of conduct that that the solicitor is sort of acting
as a go between in and out of court.
Because if you're not in court, you're not in court.
This is a key thing. Stepping into the court is
bringing you into the to the family court itself.
And if you're not actually in the court, you're not in the
court. So there was something very
untoward going on here with that solicitor.
Yeah, there was. And obviously, I was in floods
of tears at the time, and I had been told that I wasn't allowed
to get involved, which I actually believed.
And, you know, in hindsight, I wish that I hadn't listened to
that at the time because, you know, as my daughter's mother
and having such a pivotal role in the children's upbringing
because obviously I've been there since both births.
And obviously I was like the other parent, you know, I was
doing all the duties of the parent that they would be doing.
They told me that it was not my case.
I didn't have parental responsibility, so I was not
allowed to get involved and I was not allowed to be inside the
court hearing. Now, I later found out that
actually I could have been in the court as my daughter's
support, but they did not give me that information, which I was
very annoyed about. Yes, you could have been there
as even as your daughter's Mackenzie friend, but but to me
it's, it's very clear that you, you'd got a history of, of
caring for the children and helping your daughter to care
for the children. So that would have been a
particularly strong case for you to have actually been in court.
So a hearing, did you say about an hour?
Is that what you said to me? Yeah.
And then they tell you the children can't go back because
you're too far away. Yeah, and they said they've
already removed them now. So it's, it's unlikely they're
going to move them all the way back until the court hearings
of, you know, obviously finished when they've actually decided,
you know, what's going to happen basically.
All right. So, OK.
So, so they were treating this sort of as a preliminary
hearing. They were suggesting that this
was almost a fact finding hearing and then there were
going to be future hearings where the future of the children
was going would be decided. Yes, but we later found out when
I started looking through the court papers that they'd already
mocked both children up for possible adoption, which was
very shocking to me because when I went down the files it said
before they'd even decided they were going to give the children
to my daughter's ex abuser, it said possible adoption.
It said yes on both children and I was absolutely flabbergasted.
I thought how can they both be mocked for possible adoption?
I, I pause because again, if the audience will absolutely be
with, with you and what you're saying, Claire, how is this
possible? Because this is what they do.
So we, we have, we have social services, we have a child
protection system, which is a law unto itself.
And it's it's clear that when children are taken for whatever
reason, why they're targeted, sometimes you can't quite
explain that. But when children are taken,
social services simply make a decision as to what what is
going to happen with those children bad enough that they're
they're placed with a father who's who's been abusive.
But then you discover that somebody has taken a decision.
Say it. Well, we'll put we'll put the
children through for adoption. It it's some well I'll say
mother recently that I've done another interview with who had a
baby taken away from her described the processes like a
scary movie. Yeah.
That's how this has all felt like.
It's not real. That every day I wake up and I
feel like it's all going to be over and I'm going to be back to
how we were, you know, because The thing is with my
grandchildren is that in the night, my grandson would often
come across the corridor and he'd come into my room and get
into my bed and cuddle up to me in the night.
And, you know, after they were taken, I kept wait, I couldn't
sleep. I literally spent about the
first few months not being able to sleep more than two hours.
And I kept thinking, I heard his footsteps coming across the
floor. It's just I can't even explain
the words. I literally I couldn't eat, I
couldn't sleep, I couldn't properly function.
It's it's grieving for a loss, isn't it is what it is.
And, and if somebody dies to, you know, take it to a very
basic level. If somebody dies, you know
what's happened and the grieving happens.
But at least as an adult, you understand what's happened to
the person. But when, when children have
been taken away, not only is there a hole because they've
gone, but you've got this constant underlying worry as to
how they are. Are they well, are they being
treated properly? And that, that is huge
psychological pressure. It was because also we had a
really good routine because my grandson was a very, very early
riser. So he would get up at. 5:30
every morning and I would always go downstairs with him.
For a couple of hours and my daughter and my granddaughter
would get up a. Few hours later because they
used to wake up later. So I was always.
Down there every morning for those first few hours.
But it was just me and my grandson, you know, and that was
the routine. And it was just, you know,
people just don't understand. It's like, because I'm the
grandmother, obviously, I was literally like another mother to
them both. So.
Obviously it's hit me very hard and I just, I keep thinking to
myself that, you know, they're going to be wondering like where
we are, like where me and my daughter are, why, why they're
not in their home anymore and why they've been put in a house
full of strangers. Yeah, yeah, it's, it's
unbelievably cruel. And the bit that goes with it,
it, it's quite clear that it's planned and it's orchestrated.
This, this is not just incompetence by a few social
workers because there are too many cases in a variety of
different places, not only across England but in Scotland
and Wales and Northern Ireland as well where the same pattern
applies. So it's, it's like a template
operation to actually take children away.
And I have come across on many occasions this part of the story
that children are taken away from the loving parent and the
loving home and they are handed in into an abusive environment,
the exact opposite of what you'd expect the child protection
system to be doing. How did your daughter?
How is your daughter coping with this at the moment?
Well, she's had. Her ups and downs with it,
there's been times where she's really felt like her life isn't
worth living anymore. She said to me, mum, I don't see
what the point is, you know, without my children.
But the only thing that's got her through is actually her
faith, because we have a very faith, a strong faith.
We are a Christian family. That is what's actually got her
through. She keeps having faith in
trusting God that justice is going to be done.
She said she, you know, she knows that it has to come out
eventually because, you know, everything done in the dark must
be brought to the light. You know, we strongly believe
that. Yeah, absolutely.
So from that first court case, how many other court hearings
did you have to attend? So we had the second one is when
my daughter changed solicitor because of the first solicitor.
Obviously she hadn't been producing any of my daughter's
evidence. We decided to find another
solicitor and we did a lot of research and we found one that
specialised in family law and domestic abuse and we thought
this was going to be good. So basically they took a whole
month to transfer from 1 solicitor to the other, which we
thought was very, you know, strange.
It's like they were dragging it out on purpose because the
longer time had gone on, we weren't seeing the children at
all. When the solicitor then did get
involved and she started receiving the legal aid, that's
when things changed. So wherever she'd had an initial
conversation with us both and it sounded like she was going to be
fighting for my daughter to get her children back, As soon as
she started receiving the legal aid fund, she changed
completely. It's like a switch had been
activated inside her and she was like someone completely
different. Suddenly she wasn't interested
in my daughter's evidence. She said, Oh no, you know, we've
got to do what the court says. And it became very apparent that
something very sinister was going on because I thought both
solicitors, this is too much for coincidence.
They're both doing what the court is telling them, and
they're not looking at any of my daughter's evidence.
What you say a lot of parents discover as they go into the
family court system is that basically these the legal firms
that they think are going to fight their case, fight for them
in the court. They eventually discover they're
having private discussions with the social workers or even the
judge. And the number of families that
have said to me, we we were just shocked to discover that they
were utterly betraying us through the court system.
I'd presume she changed because the moment the legal aid
documents have been signed, she was on the gravy train.
And you know that that was that was the first thing.
Is your arm OK? Because I know you're still
holding that. Do you want to rest for a bit?
No, it's all right. It's OK.
Yeah. Thank you.
So you swap. You swap legal teams.
Yeah, and then obviously again, it was very apparent that she
wasn't interested. In fact, she even blamed my
daughter and said that she shouldn't have fled and not told
her abuser where she was going. And we were like, are you
serious? So you're fleeing a dangerous
abuser, but you're going to tell them where you're going.
So that again, it was very concerning, especially as they
were supposed to specialised in domestic abuse.
I thought that was a very strange statement to come out
with. Yeah, because it's, it's an
inversion of common sense, isn't it?
So it. Is absolutely.
Yeah, you immediately flagged that up as utterly bizarre.
I did because I thought, you know, there's lots of groups out
there that claim to help, you know, mainly mothers flee in
domestic abuse with their young children and they say that
they're going to help them, you know, to be safe from their
abuser. So if there's these type of
charities that exist, then why are they saying that you can't
protect your children from an abuser?
You know, to me that doesn't make any sense.
OK. So we'll just push this point.
So how? How many court cases in total?
OK, so after that, my daughter decided that she wasn't going to
have a solicitor because for obvious reasons.
So she decided to represent herself.
And then they had a remote hearing.
And just before that remote hearing happened, we came into
contact with what we were told was a private lawyer and he said
that he was going to help us. He was actually able on the
first remote hearing to speak and they were grilling him and
saying, you know, who are you? What are your credentials?
Are you registered because they wouldn't accept first of all
that he was a private lawyer. He then said he was a Mackenzie
friend litigant. So then on this remote hearing,
the the judge said that she had received a very interesting
bundle from my daughter because me and my daughter decided to
put all the evidence together and send it direct to the judge
because we thought, you know, we're desperate.
We need to know the judge actually gets all of the
evidence because the solicitors are not producing yet, they're
not showing it to the court. So we thought we'll give the
judge a fair chance to have the entire evidence before her so
she can see for herself without being manipulated by anyone in
the court, you know, if the truth so that she would know.
And, you know, we were trusting that she would be a fair judge
and she would see that and she would realise that, you know,
they've made a really bad mistake and that, you know, it
needs to be rectified. So anyway, on the remote hearing
she said she'd received a very interesting bundle from my
daughter. She then proceeded to tell the
solicitor of the social worker that she needed to tidy it up
and then she said she wouldn't be available for any further
court hearings. That's a very interesting
statement from the judge. Interesting choice of words.
What did you understand from that exchange?
Well, I understood that she could see that this was clearly
a great big mess that, you know, we were showing the evidence of
everything they've done that was completely unlawful.
So they didn't have any grounds to stand on to take the
children. And so she obviously didn't want
to have anything more to do with it.
And she was telling the solicitor to tidy up, to sort it
out, to try and, you know, sort the mess out basically.
That's that's what I took that to me.
Yeah, I would think that as well.
I think that choice of words from the judge was that the
solicitor was being warned off to get rid of the evidence.
Basically that's I use an expression the man on the
Clapham omnibus might think that the judge had instructed the
solicitor, your solicitor, to effectively get rid of the real
evidence as to what was going on.
Yeah, that was the solicitor of the social worker, the same one
that was involved all the way through.
I'm sorry, because you said your daughter was representing
herself. So yeah, that was the.
Well, then it then it applies even more strongly, doesn't it?
Tidy up, deal with it, get rid of the evidence.
Because also what I haven't mentioned as well is that
obviously when this started, you know, when they took the
children, my daughter made it very clear that she wanted a new
social work on the case. Because she said this social
worker has been biassed to my abuser whole way through.
Because she'd obviously by then read the court files, what I've
been written. And she could clearly say that
the social worker was in favour of the abuser and not of her.
So that was very concerning. She had demanded multiple times
to the team where we live that she wanted a new social worker,
to which she was told it would not be possible because the
social worker had put a lot of work into this, which was very
telling. Yeah, because obviously just put
a lot of work into this. So yeah.
Then there was another remote hearing to which it was a
different judge. And what happened was we had
obviously the private lawyer that had come onto the scene, he
tried to speak for us, but they said that he needed to attend
court in person with his proof of identity.
Just to clarify here, maybe, maybe we need a little bit of
clarification. This, this person was
essentially acting as an informed but unqualified legal
person. So he was, he was acting as a
Mackenzie friend or a, a lay legal adviser is the other term.
And I know there are a lot of very good ones out there.
They're very capable. But of course, the courts don't
like them because if they agree, if they're very knowledgeable at
law, they don't conform to the the old boy network that
operates the courts. That's the impression we got
because he did seem to know the law very, very well and they had
a big problem with the fact that he wasn't registered.
So what they said, they agreed that he could attend court.
So this court hearing was actually adjourned and they
arranged another court hearing in person at our local court in
Sheffield. So on this particular day, the
day before, rather this lawyer, he put 15 orders in place and
these 15 orders, he said, should make the judge overturn the
entire case and return the children because he was quoting
law at them and he was using other cases as well to back up
what he was saying and what they did on the day.
Unfortunately, he wasn't able to turn up.
Yeah, he was unable to turn up. He didn't turn up.
And he told us not to go in the court by ourselves.
And so we stood outside the court for four hours, not sure
what to do, waiting. And what they did was a
different judge had been appointed to take over the rest
of our entire case. Instead of looking at the 15
orders that he put in that were very, very important and they
should have held a lot of standing with law, he threw all
15 of them out because he said nobody attended court.
Well, that, that was the, that was the perfect excuse for that
judge. Nobody had attended the court so
there's no reason for him to look at any any of the
paperwork. So from then it basically
spiralled because then the next two hearings that were arranged,
our private lawyer did turn up, but they wouldn't allow him in.
They said that he wasn't a suitable person, that he'd been
given the opportunity to turn up the last time that he hadn't
turned up. And now they were saying that he
was an unsuitable person. And they proceeded to lock the
court door and have three security guards standing outside
the court and wouldn't allow any of us in.
And on both those occasions, they then had the final court
hearing. And then they also tried to have
me imprisoned as well on the same court hearing, the final
court hearing. And why?
Why? Why was that clear?
Because I had decided to stand outside the court with a
megaphone, and I wanted to make the public aware of what was
going on because I was so just distressed by everything that's
happened to my family. I felt like I needed to campaign
for justice and I needed to, you know, make the public aware of
what was going on so I could somehow try and get help, you
know, to get everything that had happened to us rectified.
And I felt like that was my only choice was to try and go public
with it. So I discovered that Sheffield
City Council had actually put in an application to have me
committed to prison because clearly they didn't like, even
though I hadn't mentioned the children's names, I hadn't
identified them at all. I hadn't spoken even about the
details of the case in, you know, detail at all.
I was talking about generalisation of what was
happening, you know, to mothers and fathers having their
children unlawfully stolen. They'd obviously decided they
didn't like it and they wanted to have me in prison.
What happened then? So the local authority tries to
push a committal order through on you.
Was that rejected in the court? No.
So what I did was I returned the court papers and I wrote all
over them that I did not consent and I did not, I was not going
to participate in their legal fraud.
I said and I stated that I was a living woman, I was not under
their terms and their conditions, and that I hadn't
done anything at all to break the law.
I said I was campaigning for justice because justice had not
been done and that obviously all these crimes have been
committed. And I then listed about 50 of
the crimes that they committed in great detail.
And once I posted that back to the court, they then withdrew
the application to have me committed to prison.
Well, that's very, very interesting fear.
It's, it's a common thing to, to see in these people.
They're very vicious when they're taking children.
But when when people do their best to fight back, you can very
often see fear and. There, there is definitely fear.
They fear publicity. There's no question of this.
And presumably This is why the courts are secret courts with no
jury and usually no press, and why, why invariably the judges
will be reinforcing to parents that they mustn't speak about
what what has taken place in the courts.
They fear the wider public learning about how children are
taken in these Star Chamber courts.
So I I think you were getting a little bit of a sense of that.
I did, yes, obviously they, they're worried about being
exposed because, you know, I was calling them out on the crimes
they've committed, which are very, very serious crimes, you
know, to unlawfully steal a child from their, you know,
their birth mother, especially for no lawful reason.
Because also what I haven't mentioned is that in one of the
meetings that we had the care review officer, she was supposed
to be independent. I asked her and the social
worker, I said, what is the danger of my daughter being
around her children? And there was just this deadly
silence. They could not answer me.
They would not give me an answer.
And instead, the care review officer then proceeded to say,
well, we're in care proceedings now, so you just need to get
yourself a good legal team. That was it.
Didn't give any reason. Two questions.
How long did the the court proceedings last?
Well, I'm, I'm, I'm trying to think about the time period from
the time of the first hearing through to the last one.
What? What sort of period of time was
that? After they took the children in
February, the last court hearing they had was in September.
Right. And and So what was that final
judgement, Claire? The final judgement is that they
refused to look at any of my daughter's evidence.
We don't know what evidence the judge was even shown.
We don't know if they destroyed any of it.
We don't know what they gave him.
But his ultimate decision was that the children would stay
with my daughter's ex abuser and being cared for by his new
girlfriend who's also a victim. She's disclosed that to my
daughter two years ago and she's going to be raising her own two
children and my daughter's two children.
And my daughter is only allowed to see her children if she
attends a particular place which she didn't deem A suitable
place. And she has to call my daughter
by a different name because they have renamed my daughter my
granddaughter, sorry. Which is incredibly
psychologically damaging as well on top of everything else.
And also obviously she's meant to be supervised by her ex
abusers mum and sister. You mean inside a contact
centre? No, not in a contact centre.
They've said it has to be held at a Party Man World Place.
So a Party Man World is a place where they have lots of very,
very loud music and they have like a children's play centre.
Under these units operated by child protection or.
No, it's literally like a social place where you can take your
children to run around and jump on equipment and you know, like
they have like a ballpark there as well.
So in to be, you know, honest, it's not really a suitable place
where you can have intimate time with your children that you've
not seen for how long to actually have, you know, proper
conversations and spend quality time.
It's a very, very noisy environment with lots of
children running around all over the place.
Yeah. And I would say that that's the
reason they choose it as an environment, because it's not an
environment that you can help restore the bond with your own
children. No.
That environment is just is chosen because it is disruptive
and loud and you can't have a proper conversation and the
children are distracted. But but your daughter would have
to be there with your partners. Sorry with with a abusive
partners female partner and her mother.
Mother and sister, yeah. Which again, they didn't have
any contact with the children when we were living at our old
place anyway. They were strangers to the
children too. And now suddenly they've been
put in these roles where they have complete control over my
daughter. And they say that if they don't
like the conversation or if she doesn't call her daughter by
their by her new name, they will terminate straight away the
contact. So it feels almost like being
put in a bullying, intimidating situation where you're being
coerced again to do what they're saying under those terms and
conditions. And that's the only way she can
see her children. And, and Claire, I have to admit
here that I I haven't heard of this before, where the the
control is put in in the hands of other other inverted commas
family members. I'm used to hearing the, the
parents or the mum or the dad was able to see the child within
a very cold, austere contact centre.
And there was always one or more social services, usually women
present during the hour or the two hours that they were
actually given to see their own children.
So I, I haven't heard of this before, but it's, again, it's
got this to me. It's got this very sadistic
psychological twist in it because to, to be in the company
of your own children when they are controlled by what are
effectively strangers and you're going to have to call your child
by a completely different name. This is, this is very dark
stuff. I don't know how else to
describe it. I'm calling it dark.
It's sinister, it's sadistic, it's depraved.
And the other thing that I haven't mentioned as well is
that prior to the final court hearing, we were actually seeing
the children in a contact centre that was arranged by the social
services while the court hearings were still in
progression. But they would keep it very
minimalistic. So on some weeks we would see
the children and other weeks they'd leave it two weeks or
three weeks now on every occasion, which is what
obviously I didn't mention. So initially going back to when
they were first stolen, they left it a whole month and when
we saw the children after a month of being out of our care,
they were covered in bruises and scratches and injury marks.
They were in very poor health, bearing in mind beforehand
they'd never been sick, never been ill.
They used to get like the odd runny nose and they'd be better
within like a day because obviously I'm very like
holistic. I've always brought my children
and my family up very, you know, healthily using all like natural
remedies and things, which again, social services don't
appear to like that way of life. So it was very, very disturbing
to see my grandchildren that state.
And we were horrified. We reported it all.
It's all been logged in the contacts report books.
When we then saw them again the following week, they had more
new scratches, more bruises. They had bite marks.
Over the progression of seeing them, they started to have
missing parts of their teeth. My grandson had.
All. Patches on his hair and my
daughter was really upset and she said like, he's always had
really thick curly hair, like what's happened to his hair.
And they tried to just brush it off and said, oh, you know, we
don't know, but it's not a concern.
Apparently the health minister has seen it and she's aware of
it and they're not concerned. So they wouldn't tell us how it
could possibly have occurred. And it happened about three
times, different bald patches on his hair.
They wouldn't tell us how it happened.
He also turned up on one occasion with two slightly black
eyes that were just forming, you know, not where they're
completely black, but where they're just starting to go
black. Obviously all of this has been
photographed. As soon as they realised that we
had over 100 photographs of their injuries and the bite
Marks and the scratches and all the bruises and their poor
health, they immediately told us that we could not take any more
photos. They said it is psychologically,
emotionally damaging to the children to take photos of the
injuries. Yeah, and again, this is turning
common sense on its head. And certainly there's no
compassion being shown by these people in doing what they're
doing. It's truly wicked.
You know, what words can you use to describe this sort of thing?
How long is it now since you and your daughter of well, how long
is it now since the children were taken away?
It was February last year, so it's been nearly 11 months.
And how long is it since you've actually been able to see the
children? We haven't seen them now for
nearly four months. And is there talk of you being
able to see them again, or is it just gone into a black hole?
Well, we've, we've been sending lots of emails to the social
team in Essex and the social team where we live in Sheffield,
and they all keep saying the same thing, that decisions were
made by the judge in the court in Sheffield and they're the
only ones that can overrule and that they're not willing to get
involved. We got the utterly bizarre
situation here where child protection has have taken
children from a perfectly loving environment, They pass them into
a potentially abusive environment, but that
environment turns out to be abusive in fact.
And you are recording the evidence.
And then when the abuse of children within the wider care
system is pointed out, they simply say, well, it's not our,
it's not our responsibility. The judge made the decision.
It, it, it's, it's, well, I'm stuttering because, you know,
how do you choose the words to describe this?
I just hope that the I'm sure they will, the audience
listening to this, they're reeling in shock because of
course, this sort of thing hasn't just happened to you and
your family. It's happening to hundreds,
thousands of other families with children taken across the
country. Claire, what what about other
steps? You, what you obviously fought
as hard as you could through the courts.
You, you tried using legal teams.
Your daughter tried to represent herself.
You use some lay legal help. What else have you done in order
to try and get this decision overturned or to get help for
the family? Who who have you been able to
speak to? I've been emailing the CEO of
the chief executive of Sheffield and we've had a lot of back and
forth emails but again, they're finally washing their hands and
saying again if I have issues and that I don't agree with the
decisions. Made in the court.
That I need to go back to the court in Sheffield.
That's what they're saying is my only option and that's what
everyone is saying. Whoever I contact, they're all
saying they can't get involved. I've contacted MPs all over the
place, they've all said they cannot get.
Involved. With the Family Court decision.
Right. And and yet you are, you know,
if you were just saying this to me with the children that got
bruises and scratches and other physical injuries that you can't
explain, that would be your claim.
But you are saying to me, not only have we seen it, we've
taken photographs of it. And so presumably you shared
those photographs with, for example, the chief executive of
Sheffield City Council. We first initially showed them
to the social worker and the care review officer and we were
very shocked by their response because we were expecting them
to be horrified by the change in the children's appearance.
Because I've had other people say to me they look like
completely different children before and after.
When they initially looked at the first set of photos, which
was before they were taken, they were saying in a very sinister
voice, oh, how beautiful the children looked.
They, they look so beautiful. They look so beautiful.
You know, it was a bit creepy the way they were saying it.
And then obviously when they moved to the second lot of
photos where you could visibly see how bad their injuries and
their scratch Marks and bruising and just the whole deterioration
of the health, you know, you could see big.
Black Lions under their. Eyes and their faces were very
pale and they just looked really, you know, distraught and
upset and not healthy and not happy, the care review officers
said. Aren't they coming along?
Well. Yeah.
Again, this is this is unbelievably cold and well, it's
sinister and it's perverse because what what you're
suggesting, and I completely agree with you, is that these
people are mocking, are mocking the condition of the children
they're deriving pleasure out of.
Yes, they actually agree with you because they know what
you're saying is true for them. They're mocking as they respond
in this way. If, if I say to you, Claire,
that many of the the mums and dads that I've talked to over a
very long period of time now, because I think it's approaching
15 years, that parents say they found the behaviour of the child
protection teams, but it could also include the legal teams as
well. It might also include the judge.
They found their behaviour so sinister and bizarre that they
said it. It's almost as if you were
dealing with a cult. What?
What would your reaction be to that description?
I would say I can totally relate.
There is a huge darkness. Even just entering the whole
Family Court place, you feel this really dark feeling.
It's very, very dark place. And the people that we
encountered, they seemed very, very dark.
Even in the eyes, you know, the eyes were very black and they
just seemed very emotionless and very.
Cold. Like almost robotic.
Yes. And I've, I've witnessed, I've
witnessed this myself in family court cases.
And one particular case I never forgotten because the lady
pointed out that as far as she could see all each woman in the
in the case. So that was the sort of Kafkaas
woman on the social services team.
All the thing, we're all all wearing black nail Polish.
Now, I know some women do wear black nail Polish, but they were
all wearing black nail Polish and it was a very strange little
thing. Does it mean something?
Possibly not. But to the family or to the to
the lady who's present anyway, it, it seemed to be very
strange. Yeah.
You've got an audience at the moment.
What, what would you like to say to the to the people who are
watching this, whether they're in UK or they're overseas, it
will be both. What would you like to say to
them? Well, I just like to say that,
you know, I really think that the public needs to be made more
aware that this is actually happening because I've had
people turn around to me and say, you know, they don't just
take children for no reason. Now, my case, my daughter's case
is a clear example of how they do.
They literally come into a good loving home and they take
children for absolutely no lawful reason whatsoever.
And I think that should be really worrying to everybody
because it could happen to their children too.
You know, like the more cases I hear about, I've come across
quite a few on my Facebook. And, you know, I get really,
really upset because, you know, it's unbearable to just think
about these children and babies being ripped away from their
loving families, you know? And, and you think, you know,
you're going about your daily life happy and peaceably.
And you don't expect someone is suddenly going to come into your
life like that and just rip your family apart because you know,
the damage is absolutely horrific.
But it does, you know, it's absolutely life changing.
And the children, you know, it's the children.
'S lives, you know. They're they're going to suffer
for the rest of their life. You know, this type of can only
be described as trauma. You know, it is barbaric, is
absolutely barbaric. And anyone that can do that to a
family, you know, I think people need to be talking about it and
they need to not be scared to come forward because, you know,
they really want mums and dads to be too scared to speak up
about what they're doing. I think This is why they're
getting away with it because they're expecting that, you
know, they'll send you a letter or a court letter telling you
that if you're not quiet about it or if you talk about it,
you're going to go to prison to naturally, you know, mums and
dads are going to be too scared to talk about what's happened to
them because of repercussions. And I think This is why they're
being allowed to continue doing what they're doing.
And it's like a bullying racket. You know, they're they're
stealing your children. They're telling you if you tell
anybody we're going to put you in prison.
You know, it's horrific, absolutely horrific.
And let let's add another factor and and last few days actually,
the Daily Mail printed a story in which it was pointing out
that the moment a child goes through a family court case, so
the child, if you like, is entering the so called child
protection system. About 280,000 lbs has been
spent. You know, that's setting up the
whole thing, all the experts, the court.
And I'm not sure the exact figure of the number of children
that are in care at the moment. It's about 70,000.
It increased dramatically during lockdown.
It may be as high as 75,000. But if you, if the audience care
to get a calculator and multiply 280,000 by 75,000, you will find
that you're into a multi billion pound child industry before
anything else has happened to the children.
Long term care where individuals might be paid several 1000 lbs a
week to care for a child that's got special and difficult
learning difficulties, for example.
So, so huge, huge amounts of money.
And to be fair to the Daily Mail, to, to the particular
journalist that that wrote this story, they pointed out that
overwhelmingly the, the children's homes and the so
called care centres are all now operated by private companies.
And they are boasting at the profits they're making and
saying it's a good, you know, it's a good industry to get
into. So you've got the callousness of
the system itself where they're effectively taking children away
from parents, but very often and the children are not directly
being fostered by another family, they're being fostered
by a family who are consuming vast amounts of money per week
to do that. So it's it's an industry.
And I also, I totally agree with you that the, the agenda is to
keep parents frightened and suppressed and stop them or try
and stop them from speaking out. And I want to say that I've been
trying for a lot of years to report on these cases.
And we have, we have done pretty successfully for some of them.
But at the end of the day, it's the number of parents who will
have the courage to stand up and speak out that makes the
difference. Because if somebody in the
general public or even a viewer of this video says, oh, well,
no, this is just not possible. They mum and grandma must have
done something. And you say that's absolutely
untrue. And, and I absolutely believe
you if if yours is the only case, it doesn't hold much
weight. But if we had 1020 a hundred 200
families coming forward telling effectively the same story about
what what happened, it is their personal testimony that that is
the evidence that the British state, the UK government is
stealing children and. I'd like to mention as well
that, you know, I come from a very big family.
I'm actually the eldest of seven and my mum and dad and my
siblings have all been incredibly shocked by this
whole, you know, this whole case because they've basically been
cut out of my grandchildren's lives as well.
You know, there's nothing been put in place for them to see
them and they just can't get their heads around it because
they know my family so well. And my friends, they know my
family so well. They, you know, they're totally
in shock. It's opened their eyes up
because they never, ever thought this would happen to our family.
I mean, me personally, I used to actually volunteer in two
schools in Essex and I do my regular safeguarding as well.
So, you know, this should not have happened to our family.
Like none of us have a criminal record, never had any drug
problems or alcohol problems. You know, the fact that there is
no issues whatsoever, that's the very concerning thing.
Because I understand that in some families sometimes it's
because they've had like say drug issues or alcohol problems
or something like that. Literally, in our case, there
has been nothing whatsoever. And that's what makes it even
more concerning because it means it could happen to anybody.
It can happen to me and my family.
It can happen to anyone. And the, the other thing I'll
add to that is that this used seemingly this used to happen to
people who would be vulnerable in some way so that they could
have drug issues or they could basically be poor, or they could
living on benefits and having a tough life, or they might have
some learning difficulties. And it was poorer, weaker people
who were clearly targeted for their children.
We've also seen that the targeting is a switch to
immigrants and particularly people where English isn't their
first language. So mothers in particular that
don't have very good English, their children have been
targeted. I was being pretty well informed
of some stuff going on in the Sheffield area probably a couple
of years ago where Romani communities were being targeted
for their children. So, so we've got people who are
vulnerable by virtue of the fact they're poor or got learning
difficulties or they're migrants and they haven't got a very good
knowledge of the country they've all targeted.
But also in more recent years we've seen social services
trying to snatch the children from professional people.
And in a couple of occasions they've even, it's like their,
their confidence is increasing and they've gone for the
children of, of people, legally qualified solicitors and
barristers. And so you get the impression
that that the confidence in these people and their criminal
activities is increasing. So I totally agree with you.
The message to the public listening to your story and what
it really means is you need to wake up very quickly because
this is demonstrating it doesn't matter who you are, your
children are not safe if social services decide to come for
them. And if you're thinking, well, I
haven't done anything wrong so they won't come for me.
This is absolutely untrue. They target children for all
sorts of reasons, including the fact they're particularly
attractive children with blonde hair and blue eyes, or even that
they're twins. Both my children, yeah, had very
striking features and were very, you know, healthy looking.
So it is, you know, especially the fact that they've both been
mocked up for possible adoption. So you know, that to us was very
kind of shocking and eye opening.
Claire one, one of the things that always interests me around
these cases is, is the reaction from from the press.
Have you, have you tried to get papers to cover the story?
Or other journalists? BBC.
Yeah, I've literally reached out to every single media outlet
that I think called, and even the independent ones that I was
given names of. I've sent emails, every single
one. And I've been absolutely shocked
to have no response from any of them whatsoever.
And given how serious you know what's happened to us is, I
thought that at least one of them would be covering.
What's happened? Yeah.
There seems to be like some type of restriction that they're not
allowed to report it or they don't want to get involved,
whichever the the reason. All those things.
And I think there's also a fear factor with the some of the
mainstream journalists, they're actually too frightened to get
involved and they know something really bad is going on, but
they're too frightened to get involved and or the newspaper
itself. And the editorial team is warned
off by the the judge. Ultimately, Claire, I think
we've probably come to a natural end for this.
I hope that you will you will do some more work with me.
I'm going to put it that way. But I, I think for our viewers
today, they're going to be pretty shocked at what you've
described. And I know from the comments
that come back into the column when we do these sorts of
interviews that many people find just sitting and listening to,
to the sorts of things you were talking about very distressing.
So there, there are a lot of good people out there in this
country and hearing the reality of what's taking place in the
family courts does make an impact on them.
But we need those people to also stand up and be counted.
And this is how we're going to do it.
Let me just end by saying you've conducted, you've conducted the
whole of this interview holding your phone.
So that must have been very hard, but well done because I
don't know how you've managed to keep it so stable.
I think my hand would have been wobbling all over the place.
So well done for that and well done for having the courage to
speak to us. Thank you.
Yeah, I just want people to know the truth because obviously, you
know, I don't see how else we're going to get this problem sorted
out without making it known to the public what's going on.
You know, it's the only way that this type of evil gets stopped.
Why people talking about it and exposing it?
Yeah, absolutely. OK.
Let's end it there. But we will do.
We will certainly do a Part 2. So thank you very much.
Thank you very much.