1 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:11,520 Hello, I'm Charles Mallett with the UK Column interview and I 2 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:13,560 have with me today Chris Coverdale. 3 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:17,360 But really, Chris, I'm welcoming you back to UK Column. 4 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:18,960 Thank you very much indeed for joining me. 5 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:21,600 Thank you very much, Charles. Welcome. 6 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:24,080 I'm very happy to be back. Good. 7 00:00:24,080 --> 00:00:26,880 And there's going to be an awful lot to go through. 8 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:32,200 We last convened just over a year ago and we are recording on 9 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:34,760 the eve of budget day, which makes everybody think about the 10 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:37,640 way in which the government is spending or perhaps slightly 11 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:39,840 less diplomatically wasting our money. 12 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:44,240 And it's not controversial to perhaps put it out that that 13 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:46,960 we're not always altogether happy with the way in which the 14 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:52,120 government spends our taxes. But just in a sort of brief 15 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:57,080 sense, why is it that there is a specific issue with the 16 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:02,720 lawfulness of paying tax? Very important. 17 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:07,760 The important it goes back to our agreements with the rest of 18 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:12,920 the world never to threaten or to use force and to settle all 19 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:16,480 disputes peacefully. Now Britain has been breaching 20 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:22,680 those international agreements and laws for over 80 years and 21 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:29,600 the important issues associated with that is that warfare is 22 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:34,720 paid for by taxpayers so that every war we've been involved 23 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:40,360 in, and there's 84 since the Second World War and eight big 24 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:46,800 ones since 2001, each one of those has been funded by 25 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:52,280 taxpayers. Now in 2001 the world made it a 26 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:55,400 criminal offence. Sorry, in 1998 the world made it 27 00:01:55,440 --> 00:02:01,080 a criminal offence to engage in all crimes, crimes against 28 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:05,240 humanity, genocide and conduct ancillary to genocide. 29 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:09,840 And that we adopted that and enacted an act of Parliament in 30 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:18,400 2001 in Britain saying that we will enforce the laws and 31 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:23,200 including the law of conduct ancillary to genocide. 32 00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:27,480 And it's that that is the payment of tax is relevant 33 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:35,000 because every payment of £100 of tax contributes somewhere around 34 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:40,880 10 lbs to the department, Ministry of Defence, and they 35 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:48,080 use it for murder and killing and wars and genocide overseas. 36 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:52,080 And that means that taxpayers, whenever we pay tax, are 37 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:58,240 complicit in genocide overseas. So that really is the summary of 38 00:02:58,240 --> 00:02:59,720 it. Excellent. 39 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:02,640 And it's a very useful summary to have Now if you're listening 40 00:03:02,640 --> 00:03:04,960 in and that rings a vague bell, but you can't quite remember why 41 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:06,560 you've heard Chris talking about that before. 42 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:10,000 The interview that I refer back to when we did speak a year ago 43 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:14,440 was called the hang on. What was it called? 44 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:18,280 I've gone in, it was called tax resistance and a declaration of 45 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:21,520 sovereignty. And it's a, it's a very, very 46 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:24,720 detailed interview and it goes into much more of the background 47 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:27,800 that Chris is referring to. If you haven't listened to that, 48 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:30,600 then I, I might recommend that you come out of this interview 49 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:34,200 now and go back and listen to Chris's from that point. 50 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:37,200 Because what we want to deal with today, Chris, I think are, 51 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:42,760 are some of the other issues. Last time we spoke largely about 52 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:46,120 the legal background, but also what the individual actions 53 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:48,680 might be. And I think today we'll look at 54 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:53,360 perhaps corporate or or indeed sort of community actions to be 55 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:55,720 taken in this regard. I think one thing I'd like to 56 00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:58,280 say, having referenced the budget already, is that the 57 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:02,840 defence budget at the moment is £60 billion. 58 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:05,880 For the the year we're in, it's expected to go up to about £62 59 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:07,880 billion. And just as a frame of 60 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:10,000 reference, it's, I think it's interesting to note that that 61 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:14,640 figure is lower than the annual turnover of the Tesco 62 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:17,920 supermarket. So of course it is a significant 63 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:22,520 figure, but it just goes to show how the, the power that we hold 64 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:27,200 in terms of where we put our money, Tesco of course, is able 65 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:31,040 to turn that much over because people are willingly giving 66 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:33,600 money to, to the organization. You might say the same thing 67 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:35,240 about what we're doing with the government. 68 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:41,680 And the issue, of course, is, as you say, 1 of law rather than 69 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:45,520 necessarily choice about what we think the government should be 70 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:48,360 able to spend our money on. I think that's an important 71 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:51,200 distinction to make. But I, I would be interested to 72 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:56,640 hear your thoughts though on the areas that fall outside of what 73 00:04:56,640 --> 00:04:58,800 it is you're referring to. So for example, we, you know, 74 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:03,400 the NHS by and large is selling drugs and pharmaceutical 75 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:05,480 products that we know to be harmful. 76 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:09,800 What's your position on our attitude towards the way in 77 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:11,880 which government spends money in other ways? 78 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:15,440 Well, again, it goes back to law, Charles. 79 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:20,520 The important bet is that the laws we've passed actually make 80 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:26,520 it a criminal offence for our leaders to cause harm to people 81 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:30,720 because of their nationality as part of a government policy. 82 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:37,960 So the COVID lockdown activities and the several things 83 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:43,200 associated with that were in fact crimes of genocide because 84 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:50,320 they were killing innocent British people through the issue 85 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:54,160 of the medical interventions of one sort or another. 86 00:05:54,160 --> 00:06:01,840 You know, the lockdowns, the madazolam poisoning of elderly 87 00:06:01,840 --> 00:06:04,760 people in care homes and other things. 88 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:08,800 If you really look into what the law says, it is a criminal 89 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:12,000 offence by our leaders. And so really, we should be 90 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:19,960 charging, you know, Boris Johnson and Witty and one or two 91 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:26,480 of the others forgotten the name of the minister anyway. 92 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:29,720 Hancock. Yes, Hancock and those with 93 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:33,400 crimes of conduct ancillary to genocide. 94 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:36,440 Yeah, so very, very instant point, isn't it? 95 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:40,960 Yeah, they deliberately murdered and knowing that if these were 96 00:06:41,840 --> 00:06:46,120 unsafe and causing harm to people, they called them safe 97 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:49,880 and effective and got everybody in Britain to take them. 98 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:53,680 That was quite an appalling crime. 99 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:56,200 Yeah, it absolutely is. And it and, and in fact it leads 100 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:58,720 neatly into to the next thing that I, I sort of want to 101 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:01,000 discuss because it is specifically with regard to the 102 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:03,680 military action. We've talked previously about 103 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:08,160 the law, you know, the, the ratification of the Rome Statute 104 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:12,320 and everything that's sort of come thereafter, and in 105 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:15,720 particular the actions that are taken by armed forces and the, 106 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:18,240 the definition of terrorism. Now there's an awful lot there, 107 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:20,800 but I thought a, a way of getting into that perhaps would 108 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:26,840 be to to recap and perhaps flesh out the our versus goal 2013, 109 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:32,320 because that points towards the, the, the well actually a, a 110 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:36,960 document that you'd written prior to that about matters in 111 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:40,800 Afghanistan concerning then Lance Corporal Joe Glinton. 112 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:43,360 I wonder if we might just talk a bit around that. 113 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:45,960 But, but in summary, what, what was the, what was the issue 114 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:48,840 particularly concerning terrorism and the actions of of 115 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:51,400 the armed forces with regard to R versus Gaul? 116 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:59,480 In that particular case, Mohamed Gaul was arrested and charged 117 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:05,280 with a crime for putting a video onto the Internet taken by the 118 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:10,280 Taliban of a successful attack on Britain's armed forces in 119 00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:15,040 Afghanistan. And that was considered to be a 120 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:19,680 criminal offence by Muhammad Gul, by the police. 121 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:23,680 And they charged him and successfully prosecuted him 122 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:29,640 under the Terrorism Act 2006. Part of the defence case, 123 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:33,880 however, was, well, what does the definition of terrorism 124 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:37,760 mean? Because he was quite 125 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:42,120 specifically he, he understood that. 126 00:08:42,159 --> 00:08:49,560 And we need to make sure that when defining terrorism, we 127 00:08:49,560 --> 00:08:57,760 don't just focus on military activities overseas, but the 128 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:06,560 actions of taxpayers and others supporting acts of terrorism. 129 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:11,000 And the Terrorism Act 2000, which contains the definition of 130 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:15,960 terrorism, is quite specifically about the funding of terrorism 131 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:20,240 and not just about terrorism. And so this is where it came in 132 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:23,720 for me. Is that that case quite clearly 133 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:28,040 said that if you look at the definition of terrorism in the 134 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:34,880 international, sorry, the the Terrorism Act 2000 Article 1, 135 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:40,680 you'll find that it covers the military and quasi military 136 00:09:40,680 --> 00:09:42,680 activities of the British government. 137 00:09:42,680 --> 00:09:48,720 And for the Supreme Court to say that the military and quasi 138 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:52,800 military activities of the British government meet the 139 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:57,680 definition of terrorism is have not been taken notice by the 140 00:09:57,680 --> 00:10:00,200 government at all. They just continue to do it. 141 00:10:00,560 --> 00:10:02,880 They know they are committing terrorism. 142 00:10:03,520 --> 00:10:07,680 And the important bit behind it is that every taxpayer who funds 143 00:10:07,680 --> 00:10:11,040 the government, knowing that some of the money will be used 144 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:15,280 for the purposes of terrorism as it is defined in the law, 145 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:18,840 commits a criminal offence for which they could be put in 146 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:23,800 prison for up to 14 years. And Chris, just just remind us, 147 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:27,080 what is the piece of legislation that that deals with that 148 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:30,600 specific issue? That's the terrorism 2000, 149 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:39,200 sections 15 to 18, making it quite clear that the the three 150 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:43,880 things, if you ask for money, collect money or pay money to 151 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:47,680 somebody else or another institution, knowing that it 152 00:10:47,680 --> 00:10:51,880 will be used or suspecting that it may be used for the purposes 153 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:55,920 of terrorism, you commit a criminal offence. 154 00:10:56,560 --> 00:11:00,920 So that that's very clearly laid out in the law in the Terrorism 155 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:05,240 Act 2000, sections 15 to 18. OK, OK. 156 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:08,680 And then I think with that, we're talking about, girl, the 157 00:11:08,680 --> 00:11:11,160 Taliban, you know, I mean, fascinating to see, of course, 158 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:16,760 what's happened 20 odd years on. But just to come back to the, 159 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:19,120 the role of the armed forces in this, because I think it, it's 160 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:22,840 very easy to have a focus on government and to forget that 161 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:26,400 their actions, of course, do have a very serious knock on 162 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:30,680 effect and an actual fact that these acts, unfortunately, are 163 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:35,240 carried out by people who mostly are members of the armed forces 164 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:39,120 who signed up to in effect, serve their their country. 165 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:43,600 Now the Terrorism Act, the the part of the Terrorism Act, I 166 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:48,880 think that you said was was sort of dealt with in in our versus 167 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:52,160 goal in a, in a not totally above board way meant some, some 168 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:55,120 bits were sort of missed out. But but I think, yeah, right at 169 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:57,320 the start in terms of the definition, I think it's it's 170 00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:01,320 worth noting that it's makes specific reference to terrorism, 171 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:03,960 acts of terrorism or threats being for the purpose of 172 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:07,520 advancing a political, religious or ideological cause. 173 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:11,160 And then to set that alongside the way in which rules of 174 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:15,240 engagement are set out in Joint Services Publication 398, which 175 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:18,280 deals with the rules of engagement, in describing rules 176 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:21,360 of engagement by saying that they encompass political 177 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:24,680 direction together with operational and legal 178 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:26,680 provisions. And I think that's something 179 00:12:26,680 --> 00:12:28,480 that's not really talked about very much. 180 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:32,040 The fact that rules of engagement are not in fact 181 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:37,640 solely based on either the threat faces faced by personnel 182 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:41,960 in the armed forces or indeed by the specifics of that 183 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:45,120 operational or the legal background, but that there is 184 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:50,840 this political element now I think that that deserves much 185 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:54,360 more scrutiny really than it ever get. 186 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:57,640 I I don't know what your comment would be on that particularly. 187 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:00,120 Absolutely. I mean, I completely agree with 188 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:03,920 you. And this goes back to the system 189 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:07,120 we've had in this country for 2-3 hundred years. 190 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:14,080 We have an inherited role of commander in chief so that no 191 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:17,920 British service person can go overseas without an express 192 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:29,240 command from the commander in The Commander in Chief is 193 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:34,640 responsible in law for upholding the agreements we made in the 194 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:38,720 United Nations Charter never to threaten or to use force and to 195 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:42,120 settle all disputes peacefully. But unfortunately, Queen 196 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:49,080 Elizabeth and now Prince King Charles are failing to uphold 197 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:51,560 and enforce those laws, those agreements. 198 00:13:51,560 --> 00:13:54,920 They are the world's most important agreements and our 199 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:57,720 leaders are failing to uphold them. 200 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:01,840 And I find that appalling. And of course what happens is 201 00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:07,080 that the Prime Minister at that time earlier was Tony Blair, now 202 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:12,080 it's Rishi. Sorry, Keir Starmer, I'm out of 203 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:17,000 date. They are ignoring the law which 204 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:21,480 makes it a criminal offence for them to send our troops to to 205 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:24,800 war. And it's just appalling. 206 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:29,840 And so something we have to do, something as taxpayers to try to 207 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:33,080 ensure our leaders uphold and enforce the law. 208 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:35,520 Absolutely we do. And this is this is really what 209 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:37,960 we want to get to just just before we do. 210 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:41,360 I mean, I think you know already what we talked about it. 211 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:46,480 It's it is fascinating to consider how the continual 212 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:49,280 evolution of what would really be described as propaganda has 213 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:52,680 moved us so far, far away from considering what terrorism was 214 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:55,320 when it was first described. And of course that's reputed to 215 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:58,400 go back to the French Revolution and the Reign of Terror from 216 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:04,840 1793, when specifically it was act of state sponsored violence 217 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:07,680 and state sponsored terror. But of course, the whole thing 218 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:12,000 has been inverted for political expedience and the the, you 219 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:15,280 know, the way the Terrorism Act is written now is almost 220 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:20,280 suggests that the state cannot itself be responsible for acts 221 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:23,200 of terrorism. But, but I think that's not 222 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:25,560 really the way that we should view it, is it? 223 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:28,960 You're quite right. And in fact, the international 224 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:33,440 law makes it clear that it's anybody and it can even include 225 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:43,560 the commander in Now, unfortunately, the justice 226 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:52,000 system in this country, the Ministry of Justice issued a 227 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:59,960 document in 2017 or 2018 which states that state actors have 228 00:15:59,960 --> 00:16:04,200 state immunity. Now that is completely incorrect 229 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:07,680 and we must find a way of correcting that. 230 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:13,240 We should not allow these sort of false, deceptive documents to 231 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:17,240 go out and be taken into account of by the whole of the civil 232 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:20,720 service and everybody else. It's wrong and it needs 233 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:25,120 changing. Under the Rome Statute, this 234 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:28,200 applies. Genocide applies to everybody in 235 00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:32,160 Britain, including the monarch, the Prime Minister, members of 236 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:36,080 Parliament and all civil servants, as well as the 237 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:41,400 military military officers. OK, that's a, that's a very 238 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:44,480 important clarification to make. I, I think we've referred to the 239 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:48,480 to the Rome Statute and, and what sort of come to pass since 240 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:50,160 then. I think the International 241 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:53,560 Criminal Court and and its role should just be mentioned at this 242 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:54,840 point. And I just jotted down a couple 243 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:57,160 of statistics off their website because I do. 244 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:01,880 I do think it is pretty astonishing that over the last 245 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:07,240 two and a bit decades, they have secured just 13 convictions from 246 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:11,200 37 cases. They've issued 61 arrest 247 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:13,079 warrants and there have been 4 acquittals. 248 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:15,760 But the rather staggering detail, I think, is that they 249 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:20,079 have a staff of 900 and that their budget for the year is 250 00:17:20,079 --> 00:17:23,319 nearly €200 million. Now, is that value for money, 251 00:17:23,319 --> 00:17:28,040 Chris? I think you've answered your own 252 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:30,880 question there. There's no way that's value for 253 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:32,560 money. And the trouble is, if you've 254 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:36,080 got 900 staff it's almost impossible to get anything done 255 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:39,080 at all. You need a small committed team 256 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:43,560 for each accused person in court. 257 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:47,080 Idea is, now look, let's get into the sort of the big 258 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:49,320 business side of it. There's always, certainly in the 259 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:52,960 mainstream, there's always an enormous outcry when the likes 260 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:57,720 of Amazon or Google or whoever it may be are not seen to be 261 00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:02,240 paying their taxes. And yet we are absolutely 262 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:05,600 talking about the the possibility or at least the 263 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:10,560 influence that corporations not paying taxes would have on 264 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:14,000 government. Are we possibly guilty 265 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:17,280 themselves of being a bit inconsistent in the way that we 266 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:21,720 view the corporate influence upon governments? 267 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:26,240 Yes. I mean, that is a major problem 268 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:29,800 in this country. People don't understand how the 269 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:35,080 system works, unfortunately, and it's all a bit beyond their 270 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:39,000 normal experience and therefore they just accept what they're 271 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:42,360 told. But we have a major problem with 272 00:18:42,360 --> 00:18:48,240 the the big industries. I mean, the banks and others are 273 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:52,920 owning and controlling the Bank of England, which controls the 274 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:56,760 government and controls all financial transactions in this 275 00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:59,280 country. We have to do something about 276 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:02,760 that. So yes, I'm fully with you 277 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:04,800 there. It's a problem. 278 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:09,400 But so, so on that and, and, and this very significant question 279 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:13,040 of, of who influences who, particularly given the, the 280 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:16,520 cycle of money and the control that comes with it. 281 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:20,640 When one is considering how the behaviour of government is to be 282 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:24,880 affected, we can be fairly certain that that action at the 283 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:28,560 ballot box doesn't really do anything apart from change the 284 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:31,440 colour of the, the part, the incumbent party. 285 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:37,960 Where do you see the the sort of break in point into this cycle, 286 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:42,240 as it were, concerning money? I think the issue is you raised 287 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:44,800 it earlier and that is corporations. 288 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:51,640 Corporations contribute about 9293% of the taxes to the 289 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:56,600 government on which the base the crimes are based on. 290 00:19:56,680 --> 00:20:00,080 If without that money coming into the government, the 291 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:06,280 government could not wage war, could not initiate the NHS 292 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:10,520 problems and everything else. So it really based on. 293 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:16,080 The amount of tax that every business pays every year and 294 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:19,240 it's huge amounts. It's 92% of the income. 295 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:23,040 So if we're talking about an income of a trillion pounds, you 296 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:28,360 can talk 920 billion of that is coming from the Tescos of the 297 00:20:28,360 --> 00:20:33,400 world, the banks, the large organizations and others who 298 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:38,880 deduct PAYE from there staff and send it to the Revenue and 299 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:42,160 Customs. They deduct National Insurance 300 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:47,400 contributions and they that is used straight away as if it was 301 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:49,880 a tax. It was originally meant as an 302 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:54,240 insurance to cover people's pensions and other things when 303 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:57,280 they retire. But that's totally false. 304 00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:05,440 It is a tax and it's National Insurance, PAYE, VAT and these 305 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:11,840 sorts of expenditures, taxes mount up to huge sums of money. 306 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:16,160 And of course it's the large, the large organizations who 307 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:18,440 aren't transferring these to the government. 308 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:23,800 I think we mentioned last time a good example is Wetherspoons, 309 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:28,560 which most people go, you know, it's a very popular public, 310 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:34,360 public house chain and with hotels and others and their tax 311 00:21:34,360 --> 00:21:39,760 bill last year was 840 million. Now that's an extraordinary 312 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:42,680 amount of money coming from one organization. 313 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:48,520 It's about a thousandth of the total income to the government 314 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:55,240 just from that one organization. Now what we need to point out to 315 00:21:55,240 --> 00:22:00,000 the directors of these companies is that it is a criminal 316 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:03,960 offence. They are committing 3 serious 317 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:07,280 criminal offences, certainly 2 anyway. 318 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:11,880 When they deduct PAYE and National Insurance from a 319 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:16,640 person's salary and hand it to the Revenue and Customs, that is 320 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:19,760 a criminal offence by the directors or managers of that 321 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:22,920 business, so we need to tackle that. 322 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:25,880 We absolutely do. Now let's just go back one, 323 00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:28,680 because the, the reason for that and the reason for referring to 324 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:31,600 all these taxes and, and at least the, the point of 325 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:34,280 confluence that that links all these things together is the 326 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:36,720 Consolidated fund. Just just tell us a bit about 327 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:39,240 the Consolidated Fund and why it's so significant in all of 328 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:40,760 this. Yes. 329 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:44,880 Well, it's really the print, the way we've been collecting taxes 330 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:48,920 and using taxes since the 18th century. 331 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:56,280 In 1787, we set up a new system in this country where all 332 00:22:56,280 --> 00:23:01,160 revenue, all government revenue went into one pot and all 333 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:03,600 expenditure came out of the same pot. 334 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:09,800 And that has been the case since 1787 and it's still the case 335 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,360 now. A lot of people don't 336 00:23:12,360 --> 00:23:16,480 understand, for instance, the link between council tax and the 337 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:21,440 Consolidated Fund. I get I've had immense problems 338 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:28,640 trying to persuade public servants that council tax when, 339 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:32,800 when they raise council tax from me or from any other taxpayer, 340 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:39,280 it goes into the local government account for your 341 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:44,720 council and that account is owned and controlled by central 342 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:48,200 government. And So what happens when it goes 343 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:56,680 in, if I pay £2000 into that account, it immediately is 344 00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:00,280 credited to the Consolidated Fund. 345 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:03,760 This is all revenue for the government. 346 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:09,080 And so, and then what happens to it is that it goes Parliament 347 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:14,320 then decide how much should be sent back to the council as a 348 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:19,920 grant from central government so that the council can do all 349 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:24,040 those things which it is required to do with the money. 350 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,960 So it it's a circular process in a way. 351 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:33,600 Now once they get it back, they also deduct PAYE and National 352 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:40,240 Insurance from council employees pay and hand that back to the 353 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:48,480 Revenue and Customs. So we are paying perhaps 120% of 354 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:54,160 the money every year straight away into the government's fund 355 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:57,520 and that's the way it operates. Now most people don't understand 356 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:02,240 that at all and they, the Council will keep saying none of 357 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,160 the money is used for the purposes of terrorism, which is 358 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:08,800 not correct. OK, Thanks Chris that, that is a 359 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:12,240 very important clarification. It really is. 360 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,520 And that of course harks back to the previous interview that we 361 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:19,080 that we did together and the specific power that the 362 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:21,320 individual holds. So I think I'm right in saying 363 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:26,000 that the amount of overall income that the the council tax 364 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:30,600 raises about 4% of of the total that goes into the the public 365 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:32,760 purse. So, so therefore, exactly like 366 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:36,200 you point out earlier, the the significance of the corporations 367 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:39,880 and therefore what can be done on that score really can't be 368 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:43,240 overstated. To those people who are either 369 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:48,440 within the the hierarchy of corporations or indeed in a 370 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:52,920 position to be able to appeal to them, where on earth does one 371 00:25:52,920 --> 00:26:00,000 begin to try to change things? I wish I knew a clear answer to 372 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:04,080 that one, Charles. I have been trying for 20 years, 373 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:08,680 more than 20 years, to try to get councils and government 374 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:13,680 officials, public officials to uphold and enforce the law. 375 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:20,520 But unfortunately the justice system in this country refuses 376 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:24,280 to accept the fact that it is a criminal offence. 377 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,080 And although I've been to court many times, I've been in court 378 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,960 more than 70 times in the last 25 years. 379 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:39,160 Not once has a judge or a court official or an institution like 380 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:43,920 a council or the Revenue and Customs accepted the fact that 381 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:47,800 it is a criminal offense to hand money to a government if the 382 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:50,240 government uses the money for a criminal purpose. 383 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:54,840 And so how we really persuade them, I think we've got to go 384 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:58,320 back to basics and say, look, this is what the law says. 385 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:02,440 It is a criminal offence for any person, that includes the 386 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:08,080 company director to deduct the PAYE and National Insurance from 387 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:11,440 their employees salaries and hand it to the revenue and 388 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:14,520 customers. Now if we can take that to court 389 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:19,160 and we've got to try and find some police force and some Crown 390 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:23,560 prosecutors somewhere who are willing to take action on this 391 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:28,360 and start criminal proceedings against one or two company 392 00:27:28,360 --> 00:27:30,800 directors. And until that happens, I think 393 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:35,520 we're not going to get anywhere unless we get a mass movement of 394 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,040 people saying, right, we want this to happen. 395 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:42,320 And you will not get any of our money and or any of our support 396 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:46,960 in your organization if you continue to commit these crimes. 397 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:51,200 OK, well, let's let's perhaps deal with a with a hypothetical, 398 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:55,440 which is let's say we do have a company director or group of 399 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:59,400 company directors who have it within their gift to do 400 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,960 something. What is it that they can do with 401 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:07,560 regard to taxation and trust and that sort of thing? 402 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,960 Right, this really gets back into the whole discussion we had 403 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:16,960 on the previous interview about declarations and deeds of trust 404 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,800 and and the role of the individual. 405 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:26,000 Now if you are an employee wondering about your the 406 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:31,440 deduction of PAY in National Insurance from your salary, what 407 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:36,600 you can do is write to your employer and say you have just 408 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:42,040 discovered that it is a criminal offence for any person in this 409 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:47,200 country to pass money to any other person or institution If 410 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,520 you suspect it will be used for the purposes of terrorism or 411 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:58,520 war. If you say that to your company 412 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:03,800 director, manager, whoever it is in the business and ask them to 413 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:08,800 investigate this, they need to make up their own minds as to 414 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:12,520 what the law means. And we've got several letters on 415 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:16,720 our website that you can send in to people to try to persuade 416 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:20,200 them in the first place to uphold and enforce the law. 417 00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:26,240 Now what they can also do is instead of just deducting the 418 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:31,680 money every month and handing it to the Revenue and Customs is to 419 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:37,480 put it into corporate trust. Now we have a court, we've 420 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:44,360 developed a corporate trust deed which enables any business to 421 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:48,960 put all taxation. That's the business rates, 422 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:53,920 council tax, income tax, PAYE, National Insurance, corporation 423 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:58,880 tax, petrol taxes, alcohol taxes, all the other things. 424 00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:03,800 Put it all into trust for the government or the and the 425 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:11,360 councils and the DVLA until the end of their business year so 426 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:16,600 that you know your monthly payment will every employees 427 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:21,560 monthly payment will be held in trust by the company by 428 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:26,680 trustees, sorry, not by the company, by trustees of that 429 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:30,320 trust for the primary beneficiary. 430 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:35,880 And the primary beneficiary is the government or the council or 431 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:41,080 the DVLA. They can get the money if they 432 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:44,160 meet the conditions written into the trust. 433 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,480 And the important thing is for us to write very tough 434 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:51,600 conditions saying that none of the money will be used for 435 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:56,360 criminal purposes of terrorism, war, war crimes, crimes against 436 00:30:56,360 --> 00:31:02,360 humanity, genocide, and all of it will be used in accordance 437 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:07,040 with incomplete accordance with the UN Declaration on Principles 438 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:12,280 of International Law. Now if that was happening and 439 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:16,920 the government therefore stops the wars, stops their 440 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:22,400 contributions to mass murder and genocide, and starts to act 441 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:24,800 lawfully, then of course they can have the money. 442 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:30,800 But if they don't, then at the end of the year the money goes 443 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:32,880 back to the people it's been taken from. 444 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:39,400 So in this case it would be the employees will get their PAYE 445 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:44,120 and National Insurance back. The shareholders will get the 446 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:50,760 corporation taxes that have gone out back and the clients will 447 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:55,760 get the VAT back. Theoretically, I think the way 448 00:31:55,760 --> 00:32:00,720 to do it for clients is to reduce the prices the next time 449 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:03,440 they come around to do business with the organization. 450 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:08,800 So basically all of that can be organised within the period of a 451 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:11,760 year and it may be just a few months. 452 00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:18,760 And then we can ensure that the directors acting lawfully, the 453 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:22,880 employees are acting lawfully, the clients are acting lawfully, 454 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:29,640 but not handing VATPAYE and taxes to the government. 455 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:34,640 And this is helped and coordinated by the company and 456 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:38,040 the company directors and managers in the organization 457 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:43,560 with a separate set of trustees, independent trustees managing 458 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,040 that trust. OK. 459 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:50,120 Now so far everything absolutely making sense. 460 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:53,920 Now you've talked about your own personal history with regard to 461 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:56,160 specifically council tax and the number of times you've been to 462 00:32:56,160 --> 00:33:00,200 court and indeed to prison. So, so none of this is is 463 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:03,040 undertaken without a certain amount of risk. 464 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:07,640 One of the things that's changed and at least may add complexity 465 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:10,320 into the mix, which I'd be interested to hear your take on, 466 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:14,040 is the role of Companies House in any of this. 467 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:17,960 Because for many a year, Companies House is effectively 468 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:20,520 sort of laying dormans and just let people get on with them, 469 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:24,680 really done anything. And all of a sudden with the 470 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:28,880 great push for digital identity, Companies House just this autumn 471 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:33,320 has pushed and pushed and pushed for company directors to to 472 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:37,760 verify their identity. Now that that might be regarded 473 00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:40,200 as a separate issue. But what is not a separate issue 474 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:46,640 is that for those who do not comply, they are threatening 475 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:49,400 companies with being taken off the register. 476 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:54,200 You know, do do you see that that threat there with regard to 477 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:58,040 identity verification would pertain at all to action if 478 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:02,280 taken by company directors with regard to withholding money in 479 00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:06,000 the form of a trust? Yeah, we're already seeing it. 480 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:10,400 And you know, just in the last month or so, less than a month 481 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:19,080 now, the difficulty is that the, the government is squeezing us 482 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:21,719 in every damn direction whatsoever. 483 00:34:22,199 --> 00:34:27,400 And this whole idea of ID and the digital ID and so on is 484 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:32,199 actually much more bad, much worse for us than most people 485 00:34:32,199 --> 00:34:34,239 understand. So yes, we've got to do 486 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:35,360 something. Now. 487 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:42,400 I would recommend we have to start prosecuting the first of 488 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:48,080 all the chiefs of the company's house as well as the chief of 489 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:53,560 the Revenue and Customs, as well as company directors who are 490 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:58,440 knowingly handing money over. And I think we must get some 491 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:02,920 criminal proceedings started against some of these people 492 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:08,360 rapidly because it's the only way in a sense is when one 493 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:12,880 person is convicted of a crime of conduct ancillary to 494 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:17,200 genocide, it will change the whole situation in this country 495 00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:20,840 and overseas. So I do think that's our next 496 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:27,960 move is we've got to find police constables and crime prosecutors 497 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:33,240 and judges who are prepared to start criminal proceedings in 498 00:35:33,240 --> 00:35:38,080 front of a jury of course. And that's the most important 499 00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:43,800 issue is we must have jury trials of the criminal offence 500 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:46,400 of handing money to the government knowing it will be 501 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:48,640 used for mass murder and genocide. 502 00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:53,480 Absolutely no. I think pertinent to to all of 503 00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:56,880 this and indeed finding those sorts of people who are first of 504 00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:00,800 all willing to take upon themselves the tasks of finding 505 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:02,880 and chasing down those sorts of people. 506 00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:05,640 You now have set up a new website. 507 00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:08,360 Will you just explain a bit about the website, the 508 00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:11,040 background to it and what you're hoping to achieve with that? 509 00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:18,640 Yes, our previous website was called probity and which the 510 00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:22,000 word probity means an integrity in public life really. 511 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:26,720 Basically, steadfastness, uprightness, honesty and so on. 512 00:36:27,720 --> 00:36:30,920 Now, most people don't understand the word, and So what 513 00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:36,280 they do understand is No Tax for War, which is the name of the 514 00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:38,520 new website which has been set up. 515 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:45,880 And we're really saying that this will help people withhold 516 00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:48,400 taxes. We have copies of the 517 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:51,960 declaration and deed of Trust for individuals and copies for 518 00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:56,760 corporations which can be downloaded from the website and 519 00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:59,960 people can just get on with withholding taxes. 520 00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:06,040 So that's the purpose of the main of this new website is to 521 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:10,400 say, look, it is a criminal offence to hand over tax if you 522 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:14,600 know it's going to be used for terrorism or war and therefore 523 00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:19,040 stop handing it over, put it in trust and get it back and use it 524 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:23,560 for the sensible useful purposes, support to your local 525 00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:27,640 community rather than for mass murder and genocide overseas. 526 00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:32,160 OK, excellent. Now the UK column audience has 527 00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:36,200 among its number people from a very wide range of disciplines, 528 00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:38,880 but there are a number of people with a legal background, 529 00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:43,280 significant legal know how people who do fall into that 530 00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:47,560 category are, are there various things that they could be doing 531 00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:50,640 either within their sort of local communities or indeed with 532 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:54,040 relation to your website and and what it is that you're talking 533 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:58,120 about? Oh yes, I mean, we need people 534 00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:02,680 with some sort of legal understanding and lawyers and 535 00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:06,080 others to uphold and enforce the law. 536 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:10,160 Unfortunately, we've had no lawyers in this country 537 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:13,880 upholding the laws of war in the last 100 years. 538 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:19,680 I find that unbelievable, but they need therefore the reason 539 00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:23,880 for that, by the way, is that there has been no war law 540 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:29,000 education in the legal system at all, and so that neither the 541 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:34,680 judges, barristers, solicitors or anybody else can quote the 542 00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:39,680 laws in the UN Charter or the I've even heard of the United 543 00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:42,640 Nations Declaration of Principles of International Law. 544 00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:46,880 Very few of them understand the workings of the Rome Statute of 545 00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:52,200 the International Criminal Court and the law of the International 546 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:55,880 Criminal Court Act and the elements of crimes regulations 547 00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:58,240 that is in place in this country. 548 00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:04,280 If we can get just a few people upholding those laws and working 549 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:09,680 with us to to ensure that we get criminal proceedings started, 550 00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:14,200 that would be extremely helpful. Unfortunately, we have a small 551 00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:18,320 voluntary organization and we just do not have the resources 552 00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:20,880 to be able to start to do this effectively. 553 00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:25,720 And so we need to work with other organizations or funders 554 00:39:25,720 --> 00:39:30,600 or others who can put in funding to make sure that all of these 555 00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:36,120 actions start to happen as a regular paid for activity by 556 00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:41,360 experts, moving the whole issue forward into criminal 557 00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:46,600 proceedings and effective corporate trusts withholding 558 00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:49,920 money from the government. We've got to stop the government 559 00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:53,200 doing what it's doing. And the best way of doing that 560 00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:57,120 is withholding the money. So yes, basically that all of 561 00:39:57,120 --> 00:39:58,680 those things could be helpful all. 562 00:39:59,720 --> 00:40:03,120 Right, terrific. Just to pick you up on a point 563 00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:05,040 you made. I mean, ultimately here what 564 00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:07,600 we're talking about is corruption in many different 565 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:09,360 forms, but corruption nonetheless. 566 00:40:10,240 --> 00:40:15,480 Your remark about people in the legal profession having not done 567 00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:19,480 such and such for for 100 years, are you, are you going back to a 568 00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:23,760 specific point in time? And indeed, what do you what, 569 00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:28,320 what is it that you ascribe to being the reason for nobody 570 00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:30,680 knowing about all the things that you're talking about? 571 00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:34,880 Is that a deliberate corruption of the system or or or 572 00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:37,160 something? Else, yeah, no, I mean, it's a 573 00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:39,160 deliberate corruption of the system. 574 00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:42,800 There's two different systems working, really. 575 00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:47,080 There's the general nations of the world and people of the 576 00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:50,040 world trying to make sure that we don't go to war. 577 00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:56,760 And there are small groups in the City of London and New York 578 00:40:56,760 --> 00:41:01,240 and other places who are trying to ensure we always go to war. 579 00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:03,680 And it's a conflict between the two. 580 00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:08,240 And so, for instance, after the First World War, which again was 581 00:41:08,240 --> 00:41:16,000 a manufactured war by a small group of committed Zionists and 582 00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:23,800 others, we set up in 1928 the Treaty for the Renunciation of 583 00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:27,160 War. That was a great success at the 584 00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:29,840 time. People were so horrified by the 585 00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:34,680 killing in the in the trenches and other things with no 586 00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:40,120 advantage to any nation at all except advantage to the people 587 00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:43,400 who were supplying the weapons and equipment. 588 00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:48,640 They made lots of money out of it, whereas everybody else 589 00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:53,120 suffered. Now that was agreed in 1928, but 590 00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:55,600 it has never been upheld by Britain. 591 00:41:56,640 --> 00:42:02,000 And that is my problem is that people don't know the main laws 592 00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:06,120 of war. So that for instance, in 1936 we 593 00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:12,360 had Winston Churchill promoting hard the need to destroy Germany 594 00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:15,880 and to go to war with Germany. Now most people think of him as 595 00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:21,080 a hero, but in fact he was working hard for a small group 596 00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:25,880 of financiers to ensure that the Second World War took place and 597 00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:28,440 didn't stop until Germany was destroyed. 598 00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:34,600 Now that you know, so there's no justice in that at all. 599 00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:38,920 Our justice system completely overlooked that and have 600 00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:43,440 completely overlooked the 84 wars we've fought since the end 601 00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:47,800 of the Second World War. We made a clear agreement in the 602 00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:51,920 United Nations Charter never to threaten or use force and to 603 00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:56,000 settle all disputes peacefully. And we have broken it every year 604 00:42:56,000 --> 00:43:00,840 as a nation ever since. And that, that is appalling. 605 00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:07,200 And yet we have these judges and barristers and solicitors and so 606 00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:11,720 on who will tell us that they are upholding and enforcing the 607 00:43:11,720 --> 00:43:17,520 law and they never do. I'm horrified that not a single 608 00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:22,240 judge has taken a stand against mass murder in the, you know, 609 00:43:22,240 --> 00:43:25,480 well, I've been conscious of it, say since 2001. 610 00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:32,120 None of them have stood up and said this is wrong, Mass murder 611 00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:35,920 is a criminal offence, we will not support it. 612 00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:40,840 They all toe the line with the government and support it. 613 00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:43,160 That's appalling, utterly appalling. 614 00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:47,200 So we've got to find a way around this somehow. 615 00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:50,000 There must be people in the system somewhere who are 616 00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:52,720 prepared to uphold and enforce the law, and we have to find 617 00:43:52,720 --> 00:43:56,680 them and start working with them to ensure we get criminal 618 00:43:56,680 --> 00:44:01,040 prosecutions of members of the House of Laws, members of the 619 00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:05,000 House of Commons and all the people who are actually steering 620 00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:07,240 us into warfare and armed conflict. 621 00:44:08,720 --> 00:44:10,640 Absolutely. And and to, to armed conflict. 622 00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:14,440 We might just change tack because similarly, I think 623 00:44:14,440 --> 00:44:17,520 there's a, there's an astonishing lack of knowledge, 624 00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:20,720 lack of information amongst those at the business end, those 625 00:44:20,720 --> 00:44:23,160 in the armed forces. You sent me a document before 626 00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:28,120 this interview which referred to the Military Manual of sorry, 627 00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:35,520 the, the Manual of Military Law of 1955 and how the idea of 628 00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:42,160 effectively refusing to obey unlawful orders is totally 629 00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:45,120 ignored really, or there's just sort of total ignorance about 630 00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:46,800 it. Will you just talk a bit about 631 00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:48,560 that? Because I think, well, this is 632 00:44:48,720 --> 00:44:52,320 this has come up in recent times in an oblique sense perhaps, but 633 00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:56,200 concerning Northern Ireland with all the the sort of legacy 634 00:44:57,120 --> 00:45:01,280 legislation being overturned and the way that that's made to look 635 00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:04,320 for armed forces veterans when it's been, you know, given a 636 00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:08,240 very one sided treatment, But it it does sort of pertain to the 637 00:45:08,240 --> 00:45:10,640 same thing. So, so please just just describe 638 00:45:10,720 --> 00:45:13,920 a bit about that. Yes, it's, it's very important 639 00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:16,840 to understand where it came from in the 1st place. 640 00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:21,560 It came, the original issue really came out of the Nuremberg 641 00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:26,160 War Crimes tribunal at the end of the Second World War, when 642 00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:32,080 Germany's leaders were accused of various crimes in breach of 643 00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:34,440 the Kellogg Brand Pact and other things. 644 00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:38,120 And in their defence, they claimed that they were just 645 00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:42,680 following orders and the judges said, well, no, that's that's 646 00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:47,040 not good enough. There are situations where it is 647 00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:51,120 a criminal offence to follow order and to follow orders of 648 00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:55,280 your government if that government is breaching 649 00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:59,120 agreements in the international arena. 650 00:45:59,920 --> 00:46:06,600 So basically you have a duty to uphold and enforce the law and 651 00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:11,480 to disobey your government's orders when those orders are 652 00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:13,920 illegal. And that really was one of the 653 00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:16,800 main issues that came out of the Second World War. 654 00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:19,480 And you're about war crimes tribunal. 655 00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:23,320 Now that has been brought into court in the Manual of Military 656 00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:26,680 Law. And it was updated in a document 657 00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:30,000 which is probably one of the most deceptive documents we've 658 00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:33,240 got. I'll show a picture of it here. 659 00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:39,600 It's the Joint Services Manual of the Law of Armed Conflict 660 00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:46,640 produced by the UK Ministry of Defence and right at the very 661 00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:57,560 beginning of it, it says quite clearly this, this manual is 662 00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:03,120 concerned with the law. Sorry, two types of law. 663 00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:07,040 Let me start that one again. It regulates the circumstances 664 00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:10,680 in which states may use the armed force traditionally termed 665 00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:15,360 yus and bellum, that's going to war, and the way in which armed 666 00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:20,360 force is actually used, traditionally termed yus in 667 00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:23,080 bellow. That's the Latin terms in law 668 00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:27,480 and the law of war. Now this manual, it says, is 669 00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:32,120 concerned with the latter today more frequently known as the law 670 00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:35,520 of armed conflict or international humanitarian law. 671 00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:40,360 I'll leave that for one second. Then further on, it says 672 00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:46,160 regardless of the justification for or the legitimacy of any 673 00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:51,400 resort of force, individual members of the armed forces must 674 00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:54,360 act in accordance with the law of armed conflict. 675 00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:58,640 If they fail to do so, they will be acting illegally. 676 00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:02,840 So they're saying that you've got to obey orders. 677 00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:09,240 If you are ordered, in fact, this document to attack a 678 00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:13,960 village or whatever it is, and to shoot somebody and to fire a 679 00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:16,400 cruise missile and so on, you must do so. 680 00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:23,800 That is completely incorrect. We have signed up and promised 681 00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:30,560 never to do any of this. And so it is the law provided by 682 00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:35,720 military lawyers to every unit in the armed forces and the 683 00:48:35,720 --> 00:48:42,600 Department of Defence, Ministry of Defence that says quite 684 00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:47,760 clearly this is wrong. And for them to publish this and 685 00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:52,200 to keep on promoting it is utter disgrace. 686 00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:55,680 And we've got to try and put something, you know, put in 687 00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:58,800 place. I'd like to see the promoters of 688 00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:02,880 this and including the chiefs of defense staff and the people who 689 00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:08,960 have put it together, prosecuted for conduct and accelerated 690 00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:11,960 genocide, because that's what they are doing. 691 00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:15,000 They're saying you have to follow orders and it sends all 692 00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:19,200 of our military to war. That is illegal. 693 00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:23,000 They know perfectly well that's why we so many service men and 694 00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:27,320 women come back from overseas activities and have mental 695 00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:31,840 breakdowns and can't post traumatic stress disorder and 696 00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:35,040 other things because they have realized that what they've been 697 00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:38,600 doing overseas is just wrong and evil. 698 00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:42,720 It's a very difficult one. It's hard to be totally 699 00:49:42,720 --> 00:49:46,360 objective about this for me because I have served in the 700 00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:48,280 army. But I just be interested in your 701 00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:49,920 view of this. I mean, we did talk about it a 702 00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:54,080 little bit last time because of the 83 conflicts that you said 703 00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:57,680 the UK had either instigated or taken part in since the end of 704 00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:00,560 Second World War, the Falklands was really the only one that 705 00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:03,960 could be regarded as in any way legitimate because of the attack 706 00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:07,800 on sovereign territory by Argentina, notwithstanding the 707 00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:10,160 sinking of the Belle Grano, which obviously fell well 708 00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:13,400 outside of of that. But but what's your view on 709 00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:16,640 having an armed force in the 1st place? 710 00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:21,280 Is there a case to be made for the defence of the realm or not? 711 00:50:22,720 --> 00:50:29,760 Well, only if we are threatened with attack or being attacked. 712 00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:33,400 Now there was that one occasion in the Falklands. 713 00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:37,640 The other one I, I should have said was the the first Gulf War 714 00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:46,200 where Kuwait, sorry, Iraq had invaded Kuwait and Kuwait asked 715 00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:49,560 for our help in defending it. Now that was lawful. 716 00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:52,600 So there are two occasions in law. 717 00:50:53,560 --> 00:51:03,760 But the the real issue comes back to how we, how we train our 718 00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:14,000 people to understand how, what the law is, how it applies, and 719 00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:18,760 the very, very few occasions where we may need to use armed 720 00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:22,480 force. I personally think now that the 721 00:51:22,720 --> 00:51:28,480 the whole concept of using armed force of a rifle, using a rifle 722 00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:33,120 to kill an enemy soldier is wrong and shouldn't be allowed 723 00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:35,680 under any circumstances whatsoever. 724 00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:45,120 Modern developments have shown us that we can develop weapons, 725 00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:50,760 if you like to call them that, but we can disable large animals 726 00:51:50,760 --> 00:51:54,960 by firing a dart into them and making them unconscious for a 727 00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:57,680 certain amount of time. Now we should be doing that 728 00:51:57,720 --> 00:52:01,960 within the armed forces. You know, if if you get people 729 00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:06,840 attacking us and coming into this country, then we can find 730 00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:13,440 ways of disabling them for long enough to make sure they are not 731 00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:16,960 a threat to us and but keeping them alive in a way. 732 00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:20,720 So I think there are all sorts of totally different ways of 733 00:52:20,720 --> 00:52:26,240 approaching the the issue that are not to do with explosives 734 00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:32,960 and bullets and other forms of killing and, you know, harming 735 00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:35,680 people. Yeah, indeed. 736 00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:40,360 I mean, and, and yet tragic to, to consider that we now are in 737 00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:45,440 an age where autonomous drones are manufactured, autonomous 738 00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:48,320 suicide drones are not just being manufactured, but are, but 739 00:52:48,320 --> 00:52:53,240 are actually in use in theaters that we are technically or you 740 00:52:53,240 --> 00:52:55,880 know, overtly or covertly supporting. 741 00:52:55,880 --> 00:52:59,560 So we are very much off course with regard to that. 742 00:52:59,880 --> 00:53:04,080 Chris, let's just come back on to the actions that can be 743 00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:06,160 taken. We've considered the, the idea 744 00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:09,680 of, of either employees within an organization and being able 745 00:53:09,680 --> 00:53:13,080 to appeal to directors or indeed the directors of the corporate 746 00:53:13,080 --> 00:53:16,720 structure. Now you also referred in an 747 00:53:16,720 --> 00:53:20,520 e-mail to me about what you were describing as multi stakeholder 748 00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:24,120 limited liability community platform cooperatives. 749 00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:25,680 Would you just talk a bit about that, please? 750 00:53:26,240 --> 00:53:32,000 Yes, I think what we're trying to do in a, in a way is to move 751 00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:35,400 away from the tyranny into a true democracy. 752 00:53:36,160 --> 00:53:40,080 And unfortunately all the systems in this country are 753 00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:45,840 supporting tyranny. Just taking the the taxation 754 00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:52,960 system as an example, you have 50 million adult taxpayers in 755 00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:57,640 this country putting all the money into the government and 756 00:53:57,640 --> 00:54:02,360 then 2-3 people deciding how it's going to be spent. 757 00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:08,200 There are absolutely nothing to do with the needs of the 50 758 00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:11,280 million people who have contributed the money. 759 00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:19,240 So if we change the system and move the responsibility for tax 760 00:54:19,640 --> 00:54:23,320 payments down to the individual, then every individual in the 761 00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:27,720 country can decide, well, this is how I want my money spent. 762 00:54:27,720 --> 00:54:32,280 I refuse to have it spent on mass murder and genocide and I 763 00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:36,520 want it spent on natural health or home education or whatever it 764 00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:40,960 is now. In order to assist this process, 765 00:54:41,080 --> 00:54:47,120 we need to have some structures that are owned and controlled by 766 00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:52,200 the people and not by wealthy shareholders or the City of 767 00:54:52,200 --> 00:54:55,240 London. And that's why I've been 768 00:54:55,240 --> 00:55:01,000 promoting the concept of multi stakeholder limited liability 769 00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:06,880 community platform cooperatives. It's a bit of a mouthful, but 770 00:55:06,880 --> 00:55:10,560 it's it's important. Let me just go through the main 771 00:55:10,560 --> 00:55:15,800 parts of it to explain what sort of structures we need to put in 772 00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:19,200 place locally to serve the local community. 773 00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:25,200 So a multi stakeholder cooperative is owned and 774 00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:29,360 controlled by the members in the cooperative. 775 00:55:29,480 --> 00:55:34,880 Now up till 2014, this was people working in a Co-op 776 00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:43,280 together in an engineering firm or a a retail establishment like 777 00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:48,400 the Co-op and other things. And it's a very simple process 778 00:55:48,400 --> 00:55:54,520 where people all join together as members of that Co-op and get 779 00:55:54,520 --> 00:55:58,400 better prices and they work together to make sure that it 780 00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:04,480 benefits themselves. What the change came in multi 781 00:56:04,480 --> 00:56:11,040 stakeholder change in 2014 when businesses were allowed to join 782 00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:16,280 individuals in co-ops. Now this is actually very 783 00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:21,280 important. If an individual, if a business 784 00:56:21,280 --> 00:56:25,960 joins a Co-op, it only has the same power as the individual 785 00:56:25,960 --> 00:56:30,800 members of the Co-op. So if you have 100 members of a 786 00:56:30,800 --> 00:56:36,760 Co-op and 10 businesses, then you have 110 votes at an annual 787 00:56:36,760 --> 00:56:42,560 general meeting or extraordinary general meeting, rather than a 788 00:56:42,560 --> 00:56:46,920 wealthy shareholder deciding an annual general meeting, what 789 00:56:46,920 --> 00:56:49,720 they're the whole organization's going to do and so on. 790 00:56:49,720 --> 00:56:54,320 So it it removes the power of the money away from the 791 00:56:54,320 --> 00:56:58,280 operation of the cooperative. That is very important because 792 00:56:58,280 --> 00:57:01,560 it gives it back to the individual members of the 793 00:57:01,560 --> 00:57:04,880 cooperative. So multi stakeholder is a very 794 00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:06,920 useful thing. It also has one or two other 795 00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:11,240 financial benefits in this in the current situation, 796 00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:19,600 particularly VAT, for instance, big companies like Shell, BP or 797 00:57:19,600 --> 00:57:23,160 Big Pharma and so on. If they have one company working 798 00:57:23,160 --> 00:57:26,960 for another company within the group and there's no VAT 799 00:57:26,960 --> 00:57:30,440 chargeable between for their activities. 800 00:57:30,440 --> 00:57:35,040 Whereas in normal life individuals we have to pay VAT 801 00:57:35,120 --> 00:57:40,320 on virtually everything we buy, even in restaurants or pubs. 802 00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:46,480 So if you have a member, a business member of a Co-op and 803 00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:49,800 an individual member and the individual member wants to go 804 00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:53,600 out, take his friends out for a meal and then the business 805 00:57:53,600 --> 00:57:57,760 member is a restaurant and you can have a good meal, but you 806 00:57:57,760 --> 00:58:01,760 will not pay VAT on it. So that's a quite an advantage, 807 00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:07,480 financial advantage both to the to the clients and the business. 808 00:58:08,960 --> 00:58:12,600 So there are beneficial things for being multi stakeholder 809 00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:18,000 financially as well as working together locally in community to 810 00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:20,000 make a success of the local community. 811 00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:25,320 The other issue is a multi stakeholder limited liability. 812 00:58:25,320 --> 00:58:30,040 And the important bit is to make sure that all members, both 813 00:58:30,160 --> 00:58:34,520 individuals and corporations of the corporation are protected by 814 00:58:34,520 --> 00:58:39,040 limited liability so that if something goes wrong, the most 815 00:58:39,040 --> 00:58:45,400 you can lose is your shares or in the case of the cooperative 816 00:58:45,400 --> 00:58:48,600 limited by guarantee. You'll guarantee if that's 100 817 00:58:48,600 --> 00:58:54,200 lbs then you could lose your £100 if the business goes bust, 818 00:58:54,480 --> 00:58:58,840 but that's all you can lose. If you do not have limited 819 00:58:58,840 --> 00:59:03,760 liability and you are a local association or whether and you 820 00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:07,760 get sued for a very large amount of money, every member of the 821 00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:13,280 association can lose everything and I want to make sure that 822 00:59:13,280 --> 00:59:16,280 that doesn't happen. It happened to the members of 823 00:59:16,280 --> 00:59:22,920 Lloyds in the insurance business in the 1980s and 90s and many of 824 00:59:22,920 --> 00:59:27,600 them lost everything because they were not limited liability, 825 00:59:27,600 --> 00:59:30,920 they were associations or clubs. OK. 826 00:59:30,920 --> 00:59:32,960 Well, there's a key distinction to make. 827 00:59:32,960 --> 00:59:36,560 I mean, I, I would imagine that what you've just described would 828 00:59:36,560 --> 00:59:39,600 appeal to a lot of people regardless of their of their 829 00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:41,240 background. There are very obvious benefits 830 00:59:41,240 --> 00:59:44,600 that are you able to point to any examples that you know of 831 00:59:44,600 --> 00:59:46,960 that are that have established such a thing and that and that 832 00:59:46,960 --> 00:59:50,840 are sort of benefiting from it? Well, no, it's rather too early 833 00:59:50,840 --> 00:59:53,520 for that. I've been trying to set them up. 834 00:59:53,800 --> 00:59:58,520 We're facing big difficulties. This is really why we need one 835 00:59:58,520 --> 01:00:04,320 or two organizations who currently are set up to say 836 01:00:04,440 --> 01:00:08,760 right, we are going to convert ourselves or set up a separate 837 01:00:08,840 --> 01:00:13,360 linked multi stakeholder community Co-op. 838 01:00:13,520 --> 01:00:19,080 And if we can do that then we you know, we can start the ball 839 01:00:19,080 --> 01:00:21,440 rolling. It's very recent, this new 840 01:00:21,440 --> 01:00:26,000 legislation comparatively in this area and very few people. 841 01:00:26,720 --> 01:00:32,240 Understand who are experts in this area, but UK cooperatives, 842 01:00:32,240 --> 01:00:35,040 which is the sort of coordinating body for 843 01:00:35,040 --> 01:00:39,280 cooperatives in Britain. They have it on their website 844 01:00:39,280 --> 01:00:43,160 and they have one or two experts and I don't know, I haven't 845 01:00:43,160 --> 01:00:47,320 spoken to them recently as to whether or not there are many of 846 01:00:47,320 --> 01:00:50,240 these things starting up. I've certainly tried to start up 847 01:00:50,240 --> 01:00:55,120 a couple and I would recommend that you know, groups like UK 848 01:00:55,120 --> 01:01:00,560 column or members of UK column who want to start withholding 849 01:01:01,000 --> 01:01:05,520 their taxis and want to start building the community and 850 01:01:06,000 --> 01:01:09,080 contributing to the community. Could set up a multi stakeholder 851 01:01:09,080 --> 01:01:13,840 Co-op quite quickly and would find it I'm sure really 852 01:01:13,840 --> 01:01:17,120 beneficial. OK, Well, we'll we'll absolutely 853 01:01:17,120 --> 01:01:19,120 see what the response to that is. 854 01:01:19,120 --> 01:01:22,480 It certainly sounds from what you've described as they like I 855 01:01:22,480 --> 01:01:24,800 said before, that would be terrific benefits. 856 01:01:25,080 --> 01:01:29,440 Now Chris, I think we are we are nearing the end of our session. 857 01:01:29,520 --> 01:01:32,680 I, I should make it clear and I apologize that I didn't already, 858 01:01:32,680 --> 01:01:37,640 that very much of what Chris has referred to will be captured, I 859 01:01:37,640 --> 01:01:41,120 think in your new website because just just remind us of 860 01:01:41,120 --> 01:01:44,600 the, the website address and anything else that people should 861 01:01:44,600 --> 01:01:47,280 be finding or looking for there. Yes. 862 01:01:47,280 --> 01:01:50,560 Just before I do, can I pick up on one thing that you said 863 01:01:50,640 --> 01:01:55,880 earlier that scares people. And the initial, when I started 864 01:01:55,880 --> 01:01:59,160 to do this initially and withheld tax, I was sent to 865 01:01:59,160 --> 01:02:01,440 prisons for three years in a row. 866 01:02:02,200 --> 01:02:08,080 But that is now finished because of these new declaration and 867 01:02:08,080 --> 01:02:11,920 deeds of trust. And so I have not been sent to 868 01:02:11,920 --> 01:02:14,040 prison. And anybody who fears they could 869 01:02:14,040 --> 01:02:18,360 be sent to prison needs to be aware of the fact that that is 870 01:02:18,360 --> 01:02:23,640 not the case unless they have a totally corrupt local court and 871 01:02:24,400 --> 01:02:29,960 police operation. But you know, in law you cannot 872 01:02:29,960 --> 01:02:34,520 be sent to prison because you have paid your money into trust 873 01:02:34,600 --> 01:02:38,320 and you have paid your taxes. So that's an important thing to 874 01:02:38,320 --> 01:02:42,960 mention, right? The website is no tax for 875 01:02:42,960 --> 01:02:51,080 war.com and people can download the various documents and deeds 876 01:02:51,080 --> 01:02:53,960 from the website. There is more and more 877 01:02:53,960 --> 01:02:57,600 information on there and it's also linked to the original 878 01:02:57,600 --> 01:03:04,520 website probityco.com, which has masses of background information 879 01:03:04,520 --> 01:03:07,840 and law and other things on it as well. 880 01:03:09,560 --> 01:03:15,680 So the two websites together hope, will be providing enough 881 01:03:15,680 --> 01:03:18,760 information for people to get on with it as soon as they can. 882 01:03:19,840 --> 01:03:22,520 Perfect, Chris, That's great. And and all of that will be 883 01:03:22,520 --> 01:03:24,560 captured in the notes below this interview. 884 01:03:24,560 --> 01:03:26,600 So, so don't worry about scribing them all down. 885 01:03:26,600 --> 01:03:30,360 Also, just to clarify on you said about going to prison three 886 01:03:30,360 --> 01:03:32,880 years in a row, just to clarify that as far as off the top of my 887 01:03:32,880 --> 01:03:35,520 head, I think that was for a day, 8 days and 40 something 888 01:03:35,520 --> 01:03:37,200 days. It's not actually a year each 889 01:03:37,200 --> 01:03:40,680 time. It wasn't a year and it was 51 890 01:03:40,680 --> 01:03:42,960 days in total. OK, all right. 891 01:03:42,960 --> 01:03:47,240 Still, but but a very important point to make, one of very many 892 01:03:47,240 --> 01:03:49,000 important points that you've made during the course of this 893 01:03:49,000 --> 01:03:51,080 interview. Chris, it's been a pleasure to 894 01:03:51,080 --> 01:03:52,800 talk to you again. Thank you very much indeed for 895 01:03:52,800 --> 01:03:55,840 joining me on UK column. Delighted, Charles.