1 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:42,880 Herman Hops book Democracy the God that Failed, natural order 2 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:46,040 and Monarchy being superior to democracy and I think it was 3 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:49,320 Churchill that quipped something along the lines of its democracy 4 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:53,120 is what the best system we have or something and Hop obviously 5 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:56,760 disagrees with that. I think that any system it has 6 00:00:56,760 --> 00:01:02,360 the capability of being an object failure at the bottom. 7 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:07,720 At the bottom of everything is engagement and you know, every 8 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:11,320 system has its pros and it's cons, but if there's some 9 00:01:11,320 --> 00:01:15,200 fundamental principles that aren't understood by the general 10 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:17,760 population and the general population can always be 11 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:21,080 exploited, I think I think it's fair to say that certain 12 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:26,200 governmental systems or certain societal systems are more prone 13 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:28,320 to that than others. Perhaps or or at least 14 00:01:28,320 --> 00:01:32,200 safeguards aren't in place, but but plenty of times in the past 15 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:33,600 we have. There's plenty of historical 16 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:38,200 context for systems that have had protections in place and, 17 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:43,240 and those have systematically been sort of chipped away at 18 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:45,480 until they don't exist anymore or they're ignored. 19 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:50,040 And so, you know, it's, I think that the fundamental issue here 20 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:55,800 is, is education and, and an understanding of what natural 21 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:58,120 law is, what natural principles are. 22 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:00,280 And that's something that isn't taught. 23 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:04,800 And because of that, of course, we leave ourselves open to all 24 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:10,199 kinds of exploitation. I if I can just go back one to 25 00:02:10,199 --> 00:02:13,320 the idea of democracy as it's presented now. 26 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:18,840 I don't think anybody sincerely suggests that the form of 27 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:28,960 democracy that is exposed in the modern Western world has any 28 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:32,080 anything to say about democracy, to suggest that it's a good 29 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:37,640 system, unless they're actively trying to use that system to 30 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:41,720 control the people within it and to make money out of it. 31 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:44,200 I mean that that is effectively what it is. 32 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:46,440 I don't, I don't think any serious political philosopher 33 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:49,560 over the ages has ever put forward democracy as we now 34 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:53,920 regard it as being a sensible system by which people should 35 00:02:53,920 --> 00:02:58,560 live their lives. And, and when 1 looks at the way 36 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:03,520 it's rolled out, well, the way it's practiced in societies like 37 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:05,120 the United Kingdom or United States. 38 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:09,440 And then the suggestion that that model should be sort of 39 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:16,520 gifted to countries that are in say South Asia or the Middle 40 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:22,400 East is, is totally absurd. I would say because the in 41 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:29,240 supposedly enfranchising people, in actual fact, all you're doing 42 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:31,880 is imposing a system of daylight robbery. 43 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:36,200 We were talking about the National Health Service on the 44 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:40,000 news, most recent news Extra program that Mike and I were on 45 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:42,000 together. And people obviously have 46 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:43,600 different views about it. And I don't want to get dragged 47 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:45,520 down that rabbit hole. But the fact of it is that the, 48 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:49,640 the, the National Health Service costs over £200 billion every 49 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:53,880 year now and for what? You know, but, but that would 50 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:56,520 not be possible without the system of supposed democracy 51 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:59,800 that we have now, which is in effect saying, well, you know, 52 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:02,160 you get to vote and because of that, we're going to take all 53 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:05,920 your money. So that's a, that's a pretty bad 54 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:11,200 place to start going towards the, the idea of, of monarchy. 55 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:15,800 Again, I would suggest that it's a, it's a false binary. 56 00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:18,480 And I have to be careful what I say here because of the way in 57 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:21,440 which we're covering the devolution agenda. 58 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:28,320 But to my mind, the idea of a population as large as that of 59 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:31,040 the United Kingdom, which is approaching, as far as we're 60 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:34,720 aware, about 70 million people, the idea that that number of 61 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:40,000 people should be under control is not the right word perhaps, 62 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:46,640 but but under the government or governance of one individual is 63 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:50,240 again, ridiculous. So, so the the suggestion that 64 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:52,960 it's either a sort of representative democracy, which 65 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:58,000 of course it isn't, or that one person can in any way have some 66 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:02,960 sort of oversight or consideration for or regard for 67 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:05,200 that number of people, again is ridiculous. 68 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:10,480 Unless there is actually a system that operates consistent 69 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:13,440 with that. So, so that at at every lower 70 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:18,360 level there is a coherent system by which people receive the 71 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:21,760 benefit of the monarch's benevolence or wisdom or 72 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:24,400 whatever it should be. But of course we don't have 73 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:26,560 that. We have a monarch and then 74 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:30,000 nothing in effect. I know I'm oversimplifying and 75 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:33,800 and not actually actually representing the situation, but 76 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:37,800 it but it doesn't correspond. So I think that I think both 77 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:43,360 systems have enormous problems and, and loathe as I am to bring 78 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:49,760 him into the conversation this early, Yuval Noah Harari, Klaus 79 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:55,320 Schwab, sort of jack-in-the-box academic bloke has he's written 80 00:05:55,440 --> 00:05:58,560 extensively and I would say quite coherently about some 81 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:00,520 things, definitely not very coherently about others. 82 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:03,720 But one of the things he talks about is societal groupings and 83 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:07,320 the idea that 150 people represents the approximate 84 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:11,360 maximum for having a, a, a structure within which 85 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:15,880 relationships between people can work effectively without, 86 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:18,720 without there being all the ills that are associated with 87 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:23,040 democracy. So that's that those are some of 88 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:26,560 my thoughts on on the the, you know, the the answers that are 89 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:28,920 presented, but I don't think any of them are actually answers. 90 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:32,200 I think I'll, I'll just add a little bit to that if I could. 91 00:06:33,840 --> 00:06:37,800 So the United Kingdom, let's say Britain is. 92 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:41,720 And in fact, others would even argue that it's not even 93 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:46,400 Britain, that it's England is, was never a democracy. 94 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:53,000 It was a constitutional monarchy and the role of the monarch is 1 95 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:57,720 of this is one of these instance where instances where the role 96 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:01,600 of the monarchy has been changed over the years and subverted in 97 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:07,160 fact by the occupants of the role in many cases as well. 98 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:13,320 I mean, if I, if we look back through post Battle of Hastings 99 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:17,760 history of, of England, actually there aren't too many kings or 100 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:20,680 Queens of, of England that we can say did a good job. 101 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:25,040 Henry the 7th is one that I think did a good job. 102 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:28,840 Queen Anne while she lived did mostly a good job. 103 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:35,160 But the role of the monarch was to and once, once we became a 104 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:38,680 constitutional monarchy was to, was to do that, to uphold the 105 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:43,640 constitution and act as a, as a, a limit on the excesses of, of 106 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:46,600 Parliament. And that's something that has 107 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:50,640 been long since forgotten by the current incumbents of the, of 108 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:54,840 the position. So, so I've, I've, from a 109 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:58,840 constitutional point of view, I've been quite in favour of 110 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:05,560 monarchy in the UK, not at all in favour of the royal family 111 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:09,880 because because they are not doing the job. 112 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:12,080 And in fact, they're too, they're so caught up in their 113 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:16,280 own personal political imaginations, particularly 114 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:18,400 around environment and climate change and these kinds of 115 00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:24,440 things, that they long since forgotten what the role supposed 116 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:26,960 to be. So, you know, and, and it's the 117 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:31,600 same in the United States, OK, Their, their constitution was 118 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:36,159 created, as you say, and didn't sort of develop naturally, but 119 00:08:36,159 --> 00:08:40,080 it, but it, it was created out of what they perceive to be the 120 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:44,560 best aspects of, you know, constitutions in Britain and 121 00:08:44,560 --> 00:08:47,800 France in particular, which, which you could argue developed 122 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:49,920 naturally over for hundreds of years. 123 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:55,560 But all the protections that, that, that constitution that, 124 00:08:55,560 --> 00:08:57,760 you know, when the founding fathers wrote that constitution, 125 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:02,880 they put protections in to, to try to limit the ability of, of 126 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:08,880 future governments and future federal powers to, to the kinds 127 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:11,520 of excess that they were likely, that they perceived they were 128 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:16,480 likely to, to enter into. And those limitations have been 129 00:09:16,560 --> 00:09:19,120 systematic, as I say, systematically chipped away at 130 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:21,680 in both countries in the UK and in the United States. 131 00:09:21,680 --> 00:09:24,720 So that they don't, they don't basically exist anymore in the 132 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:26,760 constitutions of both countries are ignored. 133 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:28,960 And of course in Britain, the constitution is ignored because, 134 00:09:29,560 --> 00:09:32,320 because people say there isn't 1, because it was because it's 135 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:35,600 not in one place and it's, it's complex and it's hard to follow 136 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:38,040 and so on. But of course, something which 137 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:41,720 has developed and evolved over, you know, since basically 138 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:48,120 certainly 1000 years is, is naturally going to be complex 139 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:51,160 and difficult to, to understand, but that doesn't make it wrong. 140 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:58,040 So no, we, we just, we, we got to remember, we don't, we 141 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:00,160 shouldn't, we don't live in a democracy. 142 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:02,960 And the, the term democracy is, I think we've sort of mentioned 143 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:09,360 this is, I think we, we can say it is 180° from what it should 144 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:14,920 be really, as Charles has said. So, you know, lots of people 145 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:18,120 are, are looking at, at monarchy as being something dangerous 146 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:21,800 because it's far in the hands of one person, but not necessarily 147 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:25,960 it can be the role of the monarchy as supposed to be in 148 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:32,600 the UK is, is one of, you know, being aware of what the 149 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:37,400 limitations are on, on the executive in the country and, 150 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:40,000 and protecting the people from that. 151 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:44,680 And that is that's in the coronation oath and consistently 152 00:10:44,680 --> 00:10:46,160 ignored by monarch after monarch. 153 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:50,640 So, you know, upholding the laws and customs of the country is 154 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:55,040 something that that, that is the core role of, of king or queen. 155 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:59,680 It's been adhered to for a long time. 156 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:05,480 At the risk of falling into the logical fallacy of the No True 157 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:08,000 Scotsman argument, you know this. 158 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:10,320 There hasn't been a real democracy or there hasn't been a 159 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:17,200 real monarchy, but still striving towards something is 160 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:19,440 better than simply, you know, brushing it aside. 161 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:24,000 A monarchy is superior historically to democracy. 162 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:27,640 And I think the, the sort of idea that the monarchies are 163 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:30,440 just sort of this King Joffrey idea from Game of Thrones where 164 00:11:30,560 --> 00:11:31,960 the king just wants to kill everybody. 165 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:35,720 I mean, it's, it's, it's more, that's more in the realm of 166 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:39,400 fantasy than, than reality. Because if you think of natural 167 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:43,160 order emerging, like you'll have a, a family that settles on a 168 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:47,120 piece of ground and they decide they're going to farm it a bit. 169 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:50,240 And as it expands slightly, they might need a bit of help. 170 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:53,400 And so they'll get some, some people from the neighboring town 171 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:54,840 or something to come and help them. 172 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:57,880 They'll might, they might offer them some perks to stay on the 173 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:00,480 property. And then over time it builds and 174 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:04,880 it becomes something, but it still belongs to the the family, 175 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:07,200 the the farmer himself. Yeah. 176 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:10,600 But historically, if we look at, at the, the history of all this, 177 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:15,360 we've seen a number of styles of monarchy in the, in England, for 178 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:20,280 example, we've seen the, I mean, this is probably an 179 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:22,520 oversimplification, but nonetheless, it gives, it gives 180 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:25,360 an idea. You know, we've seen the sort of 181 00:12:25,560 --> 00:12:31,280 really unpleasant dictatorial monarchy that, that believes 182 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:34,240 that they own everything and, and therefore they are in 183 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:37,800 complete control and, and can do what they like. 184 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:40,960 And they are the sort of King Joffrey figure from Game of 185 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:42,920 Thrones. We have seen that in the past. 186 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:46,640 And we've also seen weak monarchs that are totally 187 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:50,040 manipulable and, and you end up actually with more or less the 188 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:53,120 same type of outcome. Henry the Eighth would be a 189 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:56,120 great example of that. You know, the, the people around 190 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:59,000 him played him left, right and centre over the fact that he 191 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:02,400 couldn't have children. And, and you know, you sort of 192 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:08,200 see an expression of, of, of how he was totally subverted in his 193 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:10,280 own mind by this. There's a, there's a, if you go 194 00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:13,080 to the Tower of London, there's a suit of armor from Henry the 195 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:17,480 Eighth's later life. And, and it's got this massive 196 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:21,600 bulge in the crotch area because, because he was clearly 197 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:26,640 trying to imply that he was an extremely virile person and, and 198 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:29,440 that he was, he still was able to, to do it sort of thing. 199 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:33,960 But that just to me, when I saw that it's, it's, there's, it 200 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:37,480 came across to me as someone who was actually quite from a mental 201 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:41,240 health point of view, not quite all there that he needed to, to 202 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:43,920 make that kind of demonstration. And so he was completely 203 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:46,440 manipulated in many ways by many, many people. 204 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:51,920 And, and on the other hand, as I say, we have had some strong 205 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:56,280 leadership from from monarchs, Henry the 7th being a good 206 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:59,960 example of it. So, you know, it's, it's a bit 207 00:13:59,960 --> 00:14:04,600 of a lottery with with what you end up with at the same time. 208 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:07,760 So I take all your points. You're absolutely right that, 209 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:11,960 that that type of thinking is something that that is a feature 210 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:18,800 of monarchy, but it relies on person occupying the post, being 211 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:22,520 able to, to think that way and to having the, the personal 212 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:27,840 strength to, to, to, to, to fall through on it and, and not fall 213 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:32,600 into the sort of psychopathic hold that we've seen from many 214 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:36,240 monarchs over the centuries. I think Louis the 15th was also 215 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:43,560 considered fairly weak. Maybe I I can't quite recall 216 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:47,720 actually, but but what I would like to say, first of all, I'm 217 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:49,600 feeling a bit left out because I don't even know what Game of 218 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:52,080 Thrones is. But I do have. 219 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:55,440 I do have another. It's a it's a detective story. 220 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:57,360 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's not get into that. 221 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:00,600 But, but, but I do have a, a cultural reference which I think 222 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:05,720 the audience will engage with on a far more profound level. 223 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:08,280 Let's say now I disagree with you. 224 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:15,240 I, I don't think that that's a monarchy or a monarch does in 225 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:18,400 fact conform to the idea of the natural order. 226 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:21,600 I don't, I don't think that a monarch does come naturally. 227 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:25,960 And what I would like to do is go back because you're, you're 228 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:30,280 specifically talking about property and land ownership and 229 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:36,840 people belonging to a particular bit of ground or the ground 230 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:38,920 belonging to the people. And I think, I think it's a 231 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:43,760 very, very interesting thing. And I my belief is in fact that 232 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:50,000 this rot, as I would describe it, started with the 233 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:54,280 agricultural revolution, the first of many agricultural 234 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:59,280 revolutions in that people had, as they still do in quite a lot 235 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:03,600 of parts of the world. The world moved according to 236 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:07,000 where there was food exactly like migratory birds or animals 237 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:12,520 do, and there was no problem with that and quite how it came 238 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:13,760 about. Obviously I can't explain 239 00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:17,360 because I wasn't there. But what happened was that 240 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:23,960 people who had existed on harvesting fruits and other 241 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:26,880 things that were available at particular places, particular 242 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:30,160 times and otherwise off animal products by and large. 243 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:32,560 OK, I'm, I'm way oversimplifying, but, but, but 244 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:38,640 taking advantage of, of what was there were convinced that their 245 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:42,560 lives could be different if they started to eat slightly 246 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:46,600 different things, mostly grains. And I don't want to get drawn 247 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:49,240 into some of the stuff that we've talked about in previous 248 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:50,440 weeks. But if you look at where the, 249 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:53,360 you know, human health, where we have concerns, it's very 250 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:58,080 interesting to look back to the genesis of, of that in terms of 251 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:02,160 agriculture being a system by which we, we control what we eat 252 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:03,480 rather than the other way around. 253 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:07,560 So, so there's, there's that side of it, but but what that 254 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:11,560 means is that immediately you're creating an artificial system. 255 00:17:11,599 --> 00:17:15,200 You're, you're trying to make land do something that it wasn't 256 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:17,560 actually planning to do. And that persists today. 257 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:21,359 And I think that's something that needs to be questioned. 258 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:24,000 I appreciate we are where we are and we do have a certain number 259 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:27,880 of people that need food and you can't just change overnight. 260 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:32,160 So, but still, I do think to go back to the point at which this 261 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:34,720 changed is, is incredibly significant because the moment 262 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:41,080 you do put people in the same place and ask them to try to 263 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:46,920 exist in a particular way, then with that comes a loss of 264 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:49,760 liberty and an ability to control. 265 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:53,640 And it's, it was exactly the same sales pitch then as it is 266 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:56,560 now, which which concerns productivity, which is, well, 267 00:17:56,560 --> 00:18:02,080 look, if you grow this stuff now, then you can produce a 268 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:03,640 surplus. So. 269 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:05,600 OK, Yeah, OK. We'll produce a surplus. 270 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:08,000 And then and then we'll then we'll produce more children. 271 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:10,240 And then they, they, they will help us work and then they 272 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:12,360 consume the surplus. And you, you see where this is 273 00:18:12,360 --> 00:18:14,240 going. And it continues and it 274 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:16,840 continues. And so to get to my cultural 275 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:18,720 reference, which I've been absolutely itching to get into 276 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:21,960 one of these banter sessions, I'd like to quote Australia's 277 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:27,000 premier philosopher, Michael J Crocodile Dundee, because he's 278 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:31,000 asked when, when he takes Sue Charlton that into the Bush in 279 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:34,480 the first film, she asks him about all sorts of issues that 280 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:37,400 he's concerned with. And he, he doesn't really have 281 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:39,520 any axes to grind. And she says, OK, what about, 282 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:42,000 what about land rights? What about the, the, the 283 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:46,280 Aboriginals claim to the land? And he says, no, well, that's 284 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:50,040 not how the Aborigines see it. They, they, they believe that 285 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:54,440 they belong to the land. So the analogy he gives is 286 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:57,480 saying, you know, who who owns the land would be like 2 fleas 287 00:18:57,480 --> 00:18:59,920 arguing over who, who owns the dog they live on. 288 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:05,520 And I know that seems glib, but actually that that goes right to 289 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:09,720 the heart of it. And this idea that you can 290 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:16,200 demarcate an area and say that it's yours gives somebody else 291 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:23,920 the potential to try to muscle in or to use that as leverage or 292 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:26,720 what, Whatever it is. The point is that it's only from 293 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:31,240 that that you can enter into any kind of situation where monarchy 294 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:35,440 can be proposed or suggested or or or to come about. 295 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:41,840 Whereas if, if people were still largely migratory pneumatic, for 296 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:45,720 example, you can see that clans and family groupings would 297 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:49,600 develop, but there would be no need for anything more than that 298 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:50,680 because you don't need the structure. 299 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:54,480 Because you haven't constrained yourself by this rigid 300 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:57,560 association with a particular plot of land and, and a 301 00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:01,160 particular way of life that you're trying to force onto the 302 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:03,040 land rather than the other way around. 303 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:05,760 I just think I, I don't want to totally divert the conversation, 304 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:08,160 but I, I just think it's a really important point to make 305 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:11,600 that we have gone so far down the track that we've sort of 306 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:14,960 forgotten in, in a way, when we're talking about the natural 307 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:17,600 order, we have actually forgotten what the natural order 308 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:21,320 really means. Well, let me, let me ask you 309 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:25,720 something about that then, because if we look at Indigenous 310 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:30,920 people in the, in what is now the United States or Canada, and 311 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:36,920 they lived that way as well. But those clans eventually grew 312 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:42,520 big enough that they ended up or centuries at war with each other 313 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:45,640 over. Well over what is it over 314 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:47,960 natural resources? Was it over the right to be on a 315 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:52,240 particular piece of landed time and, and, and get access to the 316 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:56,320 animals and the fruits and so on, and they could get access to 317 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:02,720 so at that point that once you're once you're, is that not 318 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:06,040 a natural? Was that not a natural a result 319 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:09,240 of natural progression? And, and therefore they had, you 320 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,880 know, their, their nations became larger than just family 321 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:17,000 sized and they ended up with the chief. 322 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:22,200 So there seemed to be a natural development of a head of the, 323 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:25,960 you know, equivalent of a monarch of, of the tribe. 324 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:29,400 And the tribe is much bigger than a single family or a single 325 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:30,120 clan. So. 326 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:36,760 So does that not sort of suggest that that the argument you've 327 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:39,040 made is only correct up to a point? 328 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:41,880 Yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure it is. And I, I mean, I, I certainly 329 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:45,160 don't know enough about that period of history to be able to 330 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:49,520 give a, an objective viewpoint on it, because one wonders what, 331 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:53,320 what other factors, what other influences there, there may have 332 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:56,160 been, which may or may not have been accurately recorded in 333 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:57,840 history. And I think with any society 334 00:21:57,840 --> 00:22:02,080 that that has a well, and for any tradition of history, it's, 335 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:04,640 it's always very difficult to determine exactly what has has 336 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:08,360 brought about what. So I, I don't know is the honest 337 00:22:08,360 --> 00:22:10,640 answer, but I, but no, I absolutely take the point that 338 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:13,000 yes, you are right. There has of course been 339 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:14,640 conflict. And I, and I'm not, I'm not 340 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:17,120 suggesting that there wasn't and I'm not suggesting that that 341 00:22:17,120 --> 00:22:22,960 hasn't meant that there'd been larger, larger groupings made. 342 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:29,600 But I think still to, to go back to the point that that therefore 343 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:34,000 a country, I mean, you know, even then we're still talking 344 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:37,720 about groups of people that by and large considered that they 345 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:39,800 could go wherever they wanted to go. 346 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:44,480 And, and if there were competition for the resources 347 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:48,040 that were in that place, then that would result in conflict 348 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:51,840 and quite possibly, as you say, would result in larger groupings 349 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:53,760 of people. But it's, but I, I don't know, 350 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:56,320 it's, I mean, it's, it's a, it's a bit of a chicken and egg 351 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,240 argument. But I, I suppose one thing that 352 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:01,840 I've found fascinating, and I know this is, this is different. 353 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:03,960 It's absolutely not to the point, but I think a lot of, if 354 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:09,080 we look at a lot of the history of what we, what we regard as 355 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:14,240 tribes in Africa and, and the way in which they have been 356 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:17,280 either in conflict with one another or, or controlled or, or 357 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:21,240 whatnot. That shouldn't be disassociated 358 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:27,360 from the beginnings of the colonial period where the 359 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:33,000 initial control mechanism was exactly to manipulate and change 360 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:37,760 the clan and family groupings in order to form what subsequently 361 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:41,080 became known as tribes. So I think we have it's, it's 362 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:46,400 very easy to have a have a very sort of blurred view of, of that 363 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:48,480 period of history. But but As for North America, I, 364 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:50,480 I, I don't know. Yeah, I know it's a, it's a very 365 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:52,640 good point. And and and. 366 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:55,160 At what point any of this did start to change, I don't know. 367 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:59,360 I I just say that the other thing, Jeremy, is don't want to 368 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:02,280 necessarily take this conversation down a blind alley. 369 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:06,440 But, but you know, if we're talking about natural order and 370 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:12,760 we're talking about what is natural, I, I do wonder about 371 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:17,640 this whole discussion about humans, human activity and 372 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:19,520 what's natural and what's artificial. 373 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:25,960 When you know, if, if we say that we are natural in the sense 374 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:32,560 we've we've evolved over time to, to what we are, just at what 375 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:37,920 point did it become normal to to assume that everything that we 376 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:41,480 produce is somehow artificial because it came out of our 377 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:45,560 brands which are natural. So, so I don't know whether you 378 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:47,680 want to go in that direction, but I think this is this would 379 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:49,360 be worth having a quick discussion about. 380 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:51,320 I'd be interested in Charles's view on that. 381 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:55,680 Let me just quickly apologize. I have some serious rain coming 382 00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:00,840 onto my roof, so if it's coming through, it's my turn this time. 383 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:06,080 You might as well just blame me. I always come back to a farming 384 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:08,240 scenario, an agricultural setting, because that is the 385 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:12,520 heart of of civilization. It is farming and everything 386 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:17,080 that's built on top of that is effectively centred around the 387 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:19,840 agricultural setting. Of course now as we head towards 388 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:23,120 sort of like a technocratic future, agriculture's on the 389 00:25:23,120 --> 00:25:25,160 outskirts. It's no longer the centre. 390 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:30,840 Yeah, well, yes, I I just to sort of split hairs. 391 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:34,760 I mean, is it actually a farm or is it is it a source of food? 392 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:40,920 Because it's quite fascinating How if if say, 1 takes the the 393 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:44,680 incredible range of documentary series that David Attenborough 394 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:49,080 has produced over the years and how as time has progressed, the 395 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:53,480 climate change narrative has been woven more and more into 396 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:56,880 his script and, and and actually has become the only point of 397 00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,600 producing any of his stuff. As far as I'm Sam's in the the 398 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:02,920 most recent thing. But I do remember watching one 399 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:06,120 of I think one of his things quite recently, or it might not 400 00:26:06,120 --> 00:26:08,040 have been documentary, but anyway, he was suggesting he was 401 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:10,840 talking about it. It it was actually not 402 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:15,040 dissimilar to what Alan Savory talks about in, in in terms of 403 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:20,960 rehabilitating desolate plains or areas of land that have have 404 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,880 had major vegetation loss and rehabilitating them via 405 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:27,560 livestock. I mean, not necessarily what we 406 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:29,840 might regard as domesticated livestock, but but but with 407 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:32,160 animals. And Attenborough makes the same 408 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:39,920 point, except that he is specifically saying, and then 409 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:42,920 that's it, they must never be touched. 410 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:46,360 But of course, at the point going back to the, the sort of 411 00:26:46,360 --> 00:26:48,640 early days that we're talking about where there were animals 412 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,360 there, which people would have eaten, but in such a fashion 413 00:26:51,360 --> 00:26:55,960 that there would have been no harm to that population in terms 414 00:26:55,960 --> 00:27:00,640 of its ability to maintain its levels or indeed increase its 415 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:02,240 levels. And if, if they increase to a 416 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:05,440 certain point, then presumably some of that herd or the entire 417 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,800 herd would have moved elsewhere. But of course with Attenborough 418 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:11,880 now it's, that's not how you regard it. 419 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:14,400 It's just sort of, it just keeps going, keeps going, keeps going. 420 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:16,960 And humans never get the the benefit of it. 421 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:22,520 So, so it's, yes, a source of food because I, I think for us 422 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:28,640 to imagine that food can only come from, from agriculture, as 423 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:35,480 in practices where we are controlling the meat or plant 424 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:37,800 resources. I think is, is wrong. 425 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:41,600 When you look at, OK, I, I live in, in the countryside, but 426 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:45,800 there is so much food that is just there without you having to 427 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:50,800 do anything about it. So why on earth do we ignore all 428 00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:53,000 of that? So, so I sorry, I don't mean to, 429 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:56,680 to be too pedantic. I mean, I do mean to be quite 430 00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,000 pedantic, but not too pedantic, hopefully. 431 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:01,880 Because I, the, the reason I mentioned it is just, you know, 432 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:06,640 again, it's this, this whole idea of natural and the 433 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:10,600 difference between, well, if, if we can do it, is it natural? 434 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:14,760 And so this is the we're introducing the idea of 435 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:18,360 cooperation really because of course, your city state you've 436 00:28:18,360 --> 00:28:22,520 just referred to and that that cannot work unless some people 437 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:25,960 are going to do such and such a thing in order that other people 438 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:27,400 are fed. I mean, otherwise, why on earth 439 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:29,320 would you go and live in a, in a city? 440 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:31,600 I mean, there's OK, there will be a little bit of food given 441 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:33,680 what I've just said, but there will basically be no food. 442 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:36,080 So, so that's a that's an element of it. 443 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:40,440 And I think this is what Ben Rubin and Will Keats recent 444 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,360 discussion on this issue on on the natural order was, was 445 00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:50,600 fascinating in bringing out the this idea that in effect you may 446 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:55,520 do absolutely anything until such point as it impacts on 447 00:28:55,520 --> 00:29:02,800 somebody else's life. But of course, the twin aspect 448 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:05,440 of that is this idea of cooperation. 449 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:09,160 But the, but the, the reason that, that all that food that 450 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:12,960 you're talking about is left on the trees, as it were, is 451 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:18,920 because comes back to the original point of engagement by 452 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:22,200 people, because people want to just sit in front of the 453 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:26,400 television and be entertained rather than take an active role 454 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:29,520 in their lives. The reason that systems of 455 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:34,520 government collapse into corruption and, and, and 456 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:38,120 despotic treatment of individuals is because 457 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,920 individuals make the wrong choices. 458 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:45,840 And you know, if food is being left on on bushes and then 459 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,880 breeze that's, that's growing naturally and it's available, 460 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:53,280 it's because we don't want to spend our time doing that. 461 00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:55,440 We want to spend our time watching Game of Thrones. 462 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:58,120 Yeah, well, this is it. And, and you know, this goes 463 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:01,680 back to whether it be a constitutional monarchy or some 464 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:03,640 variant of democracy or whatever. 465 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:06,720 Effectively, there's there's always two different things. 466 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,880 There's, there's the, the system as we find it and as we can 467 00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:12,800 fault it over the years, or there's the system as you can 468 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:18,200 design it on paper, which as the jokes always go about socialism 469 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:22,040 or communism, it, it, it never ever works out like that. 470 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,960 But does that mean that we should stop aspiring to be able 471 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:28,760 to, to do it? And and that relates exactly to 472 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,280 the production and consumption of food and, and indeed this 473 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:36,000 whole idea of whether something is natural because it's 474 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:39,800 possible. I mean, look what what Hop was 475 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:46,200 ultimately arguing is that a democratic system is a 476 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:51,400 artificially designed and imposed B unsustainable because 477 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:54,880 every democratic government becomes susceptible to being 478 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:58,400 infiltrated, being bought, being manipulated because the 479 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:00,520 president doesn't have a long term interest. 480 00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:03,040 He's only rent seeking for four or five years or whatever. 481 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:04,640 I think these are all fair points. 482 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:11,040 And I think, I think that that, you know, it's certainly and 483 00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:14,840 implies that if you accept those points, it implies that that for 484 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:18,680 the reasons you've just suggested, monarchy is superior 485 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:23,160 to democracy. And I think one of the 486 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:25,840 limitations of the conversation that we've had so far is that 487 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:28,960 we're well, aside from the, the discussion of indigenous 488 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:33,040 peoples, we've, we've been focusing on Western leadership 489 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:36,800 and no one country that we haven't considered so far. 490 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:39,280 We're talking about big populations as China. 491 00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,840 You know, that that society has up up until the Cultural 492 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:48,560 Revolution existed as an empire with emperors for thousands of 493 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:53,880 years, very successfully. And not just as a not just as a, 494 00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:59,640 an empire that that within itself, but a trading empire. 495 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:05,600 And although the Western financial interests from, you 496 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:08,360 know, once the Silk Road got going, once a certain financial 497 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:12,480 interest from Italy started trying to take advantage of of 498 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:17,080 that trade, nonetheless, they were largely successful in what 499 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:19,600 they were doing. But but it was interesting that, 500 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:27,000 you know, China clearly as as big as it was historically, 501 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:30,280 decided that it didn't need to be any bigger. 502 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:34,600 So they built a wall with a view of with a view of, of keeping 503 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,720 people out, But of course, that also made it difficult for them 504 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:40,120 to expand any further than the wall. 505 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:44,680 So, so you know, these China's an interesting, I think that 506 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:47,160 that we should know much more about the history of China and 507 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:50,520 how it's been governed over the years and having a look at it. 508 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:52,880 And I don't know enough about it, so I'm not going to try to 509 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:55,920 wax lyrical about it. But you know, we something we 510 00:32:55,920 --> 00:33:01,120 should be looking at and seeing what the what the good aspects 511 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:04,000 and undoubtedly bad aspects of that were over the centuries. 512 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:06,960 I think it's a very good point. I was thinking about China also, 513 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,720 and I think Japan in fact, in fact, you're right. 514 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:13,400 Some of the non Western countries have very different 515 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:16,640 historical structures of of hierarchy, which is what you're 516 00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:19,720 alluding to earlier. Charles about culture playing a 517 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,480 massive role. The whole world can't be run in 518 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:25,320 the same way. That's absolutely obvious. 519 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:27,720 I mentioned earlier Louis the 15th. 520 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:32,280 I think it was Louis the 16th who ended up triggering the 521 00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:35,400 French Revolution and look at France now. 522 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:40,440 Yeah, but the French resolution, it was really two revolutions. 523 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,640 They had. They had a revolution, began as 524 00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:48,240 a revolution that was, you know, an intent much more like what 525 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:52,240 the American Revolution became. And then was the Jacobin terror 526 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:56,400 took over the show and we ended up with, you know, France ended 527 00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:58,320 up chopping the head. So you had you sort of headed at 528 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:00,920 this few minutes ago. They chopped with heads off 529 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:03,560 anybody that had an intellect or a brain. 530 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:08,679 And so you ended up absolutely with people that didn't really 531 00:34:08,679 --> 00:34:11,199 know anything about anything setting the rules. 532 00:34:11,199 --> 00:34:16,920 And, and so, you know, France, modern France and modern French 533 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:19,080 bureaucracy is, is the result of that. 534 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:22,040 And anybody that spent any kind of time there knows how 535 00:34:22,159 --> 00:34:24,239 absolutely appalling that can be. 536 00:34:24,679 --> 00:34:28,360 And of course France exported that to, to other countries, you 537 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:32,840 know, North Africa and Lebanon and so on and, and Syria and, 538 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:37,480 and yeah, they exported that, that way of doing government 539 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,600 which, which anybody that's lived there. 540 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,159 And Vanessa will tell you what, what those countries can be like 541 00:34:43,159 --> 00:34:45,400 in terms of just trying to get things done. 542 00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:52,880 So you know what what how the French Revolution ended up and 543 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:58,920 and what came afterwards is a good example of of when you when 544 00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:03,480 sort of the the the populist mob ends up taking control. 545 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:09,640 It doesn't necessarily work. But there is a pattern with you 546 00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:13,080 mentioned China a moment ago and the states is similar. 547 00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:16,520 As soon as you have a population that is very big, that goes 548 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:19,680 beyond a certain size, what happens naturally? 549 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:22,840 They start federalizing. I think, I think direction of 550 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:26,640 travel is important here. I think if as populations grow 551 00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:32,200 and they self organize bottom up, then then you know, you 552 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:36,840 choose if you're, if you're, you know, if you're sensible and 553 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:40,080 clever about this as as a group of people, you will choose the 554 00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:44,040 best people to be taking on the sort of leadership role. 555 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:48,640 The difficulty comes, as we're seeing in the UK with this 556 00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:53,320 so-called devolution process, when, when the efforts to, to 557 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:56,240 create these structures come top down. 558 00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:02,280 And, and that, that is when you start to see the autocracy 559 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:06,560 coming along and saying, right, don't worry, This is all about 560 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,400 bringing democracy to the local level and making sure that you 561 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:11,360 get to no, no, that's not how it works. 562 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:14,400 This is about bringing centralized control to the local 563 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:19,600 level and making sure that at locally the central controller 564 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:23,880 has the right puppet in place. I, I, I don't know enough about 565 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:28,320 the development of China to know if that's how that those 566 00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:31,040 structures actually were created and, and what the effect on the 567 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:35,000 ground is historically. That's something that I would 568 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:39,000 like to know a lot more about, but I think that's an important 569 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:42,800 distinction when we're talking about how how federalised 570 00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:46,800 structures are created. Timing also is another factor. 571 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,880 I mean, I can't remember if it's meant to be ascribed to one 572 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:53,200 particular Chinese diplomat or whether it's just sort of the 573 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,880 Chinese view. But but the, the, so the story 574 00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:03,120 goes within the last in a couple of decades, a Chinese diplomat 575 00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:07,800 was asked at a state event, a state banquet I think in, in the 576 00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:11,960 UK, who's asked his opinion of the front of the results of the 577 00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:15,600 French Revolution. And his, his reply was that it 578 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:19,680 was too early to tell. And it's, it's sort of often 579 00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:22,160 reported as though ha, ha, ha. It's a, you know, it's a funny 580 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:23,520 one. It's not funny. 581 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:25,320 I mean, I, I think it's completely serious. 582 00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:31,400 And we, I'd say we all these societies that we talk about, 583 00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:36,160 whether they be defined by the idea of an ethnicity or 584 00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:41,200 nationhood or, or a state, they're all at different points 585 00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:44,280 in the various cycles they go through. 586 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:48,200 And I think that's a really important point to make because 587 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:52,080 yes, I would agree with you that there you can absolutely point 588 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:57,400 to examples to reinforce your point about a federalist 589 00:37:57,480 --> 00:37:59,200 approach to this, that and the other. 590 00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:02,240 I would say that what we're seeing in the United Kingdom at 591 00:38:02,240 --> 00:38:06,360 the moment is being sold as that, but completely mis sold. 592 00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:08,480 It's it's absolutely the opposite. 593 00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:15,120 And the point about society, let's say in in the UK is that 594 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:22,560 we are at yeah, you know, we're at a certain stage of this 595 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:26,720 iteration of our civilization, if you, if you will. 596 00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:34,440 That means that we are prone to or unable to do or, you know, 597 00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:38,240 the, the conditions are set for something that that they may not 598 00:38:38,240 --> 00:38:42,400 be ripe for in even France or China or the United States. 599 00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:45,120 And I think there's some very interesting, I mean, there's 600 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:48,120 something I would like to look at more, but the but to look at 601 00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:53,680 the indicators, you know, what are the associated factors with 602 00:38:53,680 --> 00:38:55,440 the sorts of things that we're talking about? 603 00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:58,400 And one of the things that springs to mind, which again, I 604 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:01,480 would like to investigate much more fully, is the you're 605 00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,160 talking about culture, but particularly the way it 606 00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:07,000 expresses itself in art form. And this is something that 607 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:13,640 Camille Paglia, the academic who who who's been controversial 608 00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:16,440 over the years, but this is something she talks about a lot, 609 00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:22,160 how the art of the civilization indicates at what point that is. 610 00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:25,960 And there's every suggestion that are certainly British, 611 00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:29,920 Western, whatever civilization is absolutely reaching an end 612 00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:32,720 point. Not not, I'm not saying the end, 613 00:39:32,720 --> 00:39:36,320 but but an end point in this cycle because of the way that 614 00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:41,840 this art expresses itself. And she says typically that it 615 00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:46,000 brings out themes of, say, androgyny or the idea that the 616 00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:52,080 male form is somehow pathetic as, as compared with, say, the 617 00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:58,120 types of sculpture that Michelangelo was producing, you 618 00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:02,760 know, of, of strapping muscular men and that kind of thing. 619 00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:05,720 So it's, it's just those sorts of things are are really 620 00:40:05,720 --> 00:40:09,000 interesting, not taken in isolation, but looked at 621 00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:11,440 alongside. All the sorts of things that are 622 00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:14,000 happening politically in civilizations. 623 00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:15,760 And we talked about this the other week, actually, I was 624 00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:19,960 talking about Brits getting tattoos of stuff that they just 625 00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:22,280 simply don't understand. Whereas if you think, you know, 626 00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:25,920 let's look at the former Soviet Union countries where there is 627 00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:32,160 still this ideal of the sort of perfect specimen. 628 00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:36,120 I mean, the propaganda posters which go back many years and, 629 00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:39,640 and are in a way sort of laughable, but actually they do 630 00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:42,480 still mean something. And I think we've gone way 631 00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:46,160 beyond that now in, in the UK. So, and, but I think all these 632 00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:49,480 things are really related and we should bear them, bear, bear the 633 00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:53,400 whole situation in mind, not just what we might describe as 634 00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:55,000 the sort of political element of it. 635 00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:57,200 There are so many other factors at play, because if you don't 636 00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:00,440 consider the other factors, then you can't see how the population 637 00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:03,920 has been either brainwashed to ignore or go along with 638 00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:06,120 something, or indeed motivated to change it. 639 00:41:07,240 --> 00:41:10,160 Gavin McInnes has often said that everything is downstream 640 00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:13,360 from culture, and I think that kind of echoes your sentiment to 641 00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:17,360 some degree, Charles, that politics is not upstream from 642 00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:20,600 culture, but in fact it is downstream from from culture and 643 00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:24,280 and. This, that's a really 644 00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:27,200 interesting point because the question, because if we're 645 00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:31,320 talking about natural order, the question is, does culture 646 00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:34,760 develop naturally or is culture manipulated? 647 00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:39,360 And, and you know, to echo, to follow on from Charles's point, 648 00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:42,080 when we're looking at the artwork that's being produced at 649 00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:46,200 the moment and the, and in fact, you look at academia as a whole, 650 00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:49,840 This has such an influence on culture, not only because, 651 00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:52,760 because what follows from what's being taught in academia is 652 00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:56,520 scripts for television shows. It's, it's scripts for plays. 653 00:41:56,520 --> 00:42:02,240 It's, it's the, the type of art that we're seeing and, and maybe 654 00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:06,320 perhaps it's a, a feature of a collapsing society that that 655 00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:10,120 culture becomes something which isn't an expression of that 656 00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:14,080 society, but is used to as a mechanism of control in and of 657 00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:15,800 itself. Right. 658 00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:18,600 And, and I think, I think it's important to to acknowledge 659 00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:22,520 that. Yes, I mean, sure, I I agree. 660 00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:25,560 But I also still think that historically, you know, 661 00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:28,080 everything was down downstream from culture and that culture 662 00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:31,240 did emerge if it's considered the Zulus, for example, right, 663 00:42:31,240 --> 00:42:36,480 They emerged out of the various Bantu tribes in Southern Africa. 664 00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:40,760 And now, yes, what's interesting, they maintain their 665 00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:44,360 culture thanks to their sort of monarchical structure. 666 00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:49,080 So, so my, my question is whether that is because of 667 00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:53,720 democracy or whether it, whether it actually even matters what 668 00:42:53,720 --> 00:42:59,600 your system of governance is because because you know it, it. 669 00:42:59,920 --> 00:43:02,960 So this is a question I suppose we're, we're asking in this 670 00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:07,440 whole discussion is, is democracy in and of itself such 671 00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:11,240 a weak system that it naturally collapses under, it's a wit or 672 00:43:11,240 --> 00:43:16,240 is it that no matter what your political system, at some point, 673 00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:21,360 as, as people Start Stop paying attention or they relax their, 674 00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:25,440 their guard or whatever, the, the parasitic class moves in 675 00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:28,480 and, and perverts it to its own ends. 676 00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:32,440 And, and I think, I think the problem here is that, that, and 677 00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:35,640 we can discuss whether this is part of the natural order or 678 00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:43,480 not, whether there is naturally a, a minority within the human 679 00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:48,080 race which is parasitic by nature and psychopathic by 680 00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:51,480 nature. And that they will always move 681 00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:54,600 in and take control. And and once that happens, then 682 00:43:54,640 --> 00:44:00,320 without whatever your system of governance, see the devolution 683 00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:05,360 of of our culture, of our societies and and the tendency 684 00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:11,440 towards conflict and and disgraceful treatment of of 685 00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:14,240 individuals. Sure, and I think you're 686 00:44:14,240 --> 00:44:16,200 correct. But I mean, if you think about 687 00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:19,320 our understanding of modern democracy, I don't think any 688 00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:24,080 democracy has somehow led to more prosperity and freedom over 689 00:44:24,080 --> 00:44:28,760 the last 250 years or so. Consider the the civilizations 690 00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:30,520 that have had the largest historical impact. 691 00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:33,720 You mentioned China for sure. I mean, they were around for 692 00:44:33,720 --> 00:44:36,280 thousands of years and as you said, successful. 693 00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:37,560 And I think the Roman Empire too. 694 00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:39,600 And that also wasn't really democratic. 695 00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:43,160 But I mean, OK, that's a whole different discussion, but part 696 00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:50,160 of its collapse is linked to its its desire to constantly expand. 697 00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:53,520 Yeah, it's a, it's a really interesting point when we're, 698 00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:55,440 you know, considering the natural order and the in the 699 00:44:56,240 --> 00:45:01,240 constant, the constant requirement to search for 700 00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:03,520 equilibrium like like any system. 701 00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:06,320 And I, and I think the point about the prevalence of say, 702 00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:09,680 psychopathy is fascinating because I, I think this is 703 00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:14,440 where, this is where a lot of people will come unstuck, 704 00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:20,040 perhaps in that we, in this discussion here, the three of us 705 00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:23,800 would have, you know, as articulated by these 706 00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:26,880 conversations, broadly overlapping world views. 707 00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:30,280 And yet they are very much discordant with the majority of 708 00:45:30,280 --> 00:45:33,400 people who are out there because they have been conditioned, I 709 00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:34,960 would say, to think a particular thing. 710 00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:36,600 I don't think there's anything natural about that. 711 00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:39,520 I think they've been, these are thoughts that are introduced by 712 00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:41,960 all the mechanisms that we talk about, whether it be subverted 713 00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:46,800 democracy or culture that's been again, subverted. 714 00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:54,440 But there is a a, a, a well recognised, well documented 715 00:45:56,280 --> 00:46:00,080 quota, let's say of people in any society who have a tendency 716 00:46:00,240 --> 00:46:03,280 towards psychopathy. There are all sorts of other 717 00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:08,280 things, but I but I believe that that largely human nature, if 718 00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:10,160 that's what we're going to call it doesn't, doesn't really 719 00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:13,200 change. And therefore there will be 720 00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:19,000 times where the equilibrium is, is upset because a certain force 721 00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:25,680 will be able to exert itself in an unchecked sense, but not all 722 00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:27,920 the time. And, and I think therefore what 723 00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:33,080 we go through is a, is a constant process by which by 724 00:46:33,080 --> 00:46:37,520 which those those things do eventually self correct, which 725 00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:42,040 goes back to the point I'm making about timing in that I, I 726 00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:46,320 would imagine that that the system surrounding us in the 727 00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:52,560 United Kingdom, I don't mean this in apocalyptic in that sort 728 00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:56,680 of sense, but but what I mean is that it, it, it will, it will 729 00:46:56,680 --> 00:47:00,080 collapse at some point. And that's fine because 730 00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:03,840 something else will replace it. But we don't really know what 731 00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:06,160 that is yet. But I think we can be quite 732 00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:09,720 clear on, on why it's happened because the number of people 733 00:47:09,720 --> 00:47:16,560 that want to behave in such a fashion has to create poor 734 00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:18,720 conditions for others in society. 735 00:47:18,720 --> 00:47:21,440 And they do unfortunately have the control, the will and the 736 00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:23,760 means to do so. We're talking about the sort of 737 00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:26,440 the, you know, elite oligarchic class. 738 00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:28,480 Well, it doesn't, doesn't really matter who they are, but the 739 00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:31,080 point is that the influence they have, I say is, is, is 740 00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:34,240 absolutely disproportionate and they, they shouldn't wield it, 741 00:47:34,240 --> 00:47:38,080 but they've been able to. But that, that will only go on 742 00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:40,720 until a certain point. Quite, quite what will determine 743 00:47:40,720 --> 00:47:43,720 that? Like, I don't know, but, but, 744 00:47:43,720 --> 00:47:45,880 but the, the, you know, we'll go back to the natural order. 745 00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:48,840 For whatever reason, that does seem to be the way in which 746 00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:52,000 people express themselves across, across the entire 747 00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:55,680 spectrum of society. So there will be a point where 748 00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:59,880 that does sort of self correct. And, and I think what we're 749 00:47:59,880 --> 00:48:02,800 talking about the, whether it be going back thousands of years 750 00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:05,960 through Chinese history or, or anything else, that there will 751 00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:08,600 have been points all along the way where that will have 752 00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:10,160 happened. The same thing with, with the 753 00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:12,280 fall of Rome and, and everything else. 754 00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:17,400 So ultimately greed, let's say psychopathy, whatever does burn 755 00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:24,360 itself out or does, does 'cause that implosion, to what degree 756 00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:28,720 an awareness of that can mean that people can actively do 757 00:48:28,720 --> 00:48:30,520 something about it. Whether it has to just run its 758 00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:33,120 course I I don't really know, but I think it is. 759 00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:34,960 I think it is absolutely observable. 760 00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:37,480 Isn't a great way of looking at it. 761 00:48:38,240 --> 00:48:42,000 Also, if you just take a step back and scale everything down, 762 00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:46,800 right down, how do you govern your home and your family and 763 00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:49,840 those who work on your property? I mean, that's the way I like to 764 00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:51,440 look at it. And then from there you scale 765 00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:53,600 up. Yeah, to an extent, Although I 766 00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:58,320 mean, I sort of go back to the the, let's say the prehistory of 767 00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:02,000 before we're talking about property ownership, land 768 00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:03,520 ownership, agriculture, whatever. 769 00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:08,160 This idea of conforming to somebody else's plan will 770 00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:12,480 whatever I think only comes from a situation in which if you 771 00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:14,920 didn't conduct yourself in a particular manner, you would 772 00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:19,840 either starve or die because you there there were obvious ways in 773 00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:22,440 which you dealt with a particular situation. 774 00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:25,680 And I think all, all you're talking about now is really just 775 00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:30,280 an extension of that where there will be in most cases, one 776 00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:36,840 person that has a vision and an understanding of how to avoid 777 00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:40,400 starvation and death at one end of the spectrum. 778 00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:45,800 But but mostly to engender a system that is for the benefit 779 00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:49,560 of everybody. But it does, but it does, it 780 00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:58,000 does need to conform to the, the sort of natural requirements, I 781 00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:01,600 would say. And, and the, the mental side of 782 00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:03,560 that, you know, happiness and all the rest of it is, it is, 783 00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:05,880 it's clearly an absolutely enormous part of it. 784 00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:08,320 And that's the, that's sort of the struggle we have. 785 00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:13,920 We imagine a, a life where every day is in fact a battle for 786 00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:18,320 survival, then you're not really at leisure to be considering all 787 00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:21,160 the sorts of factors that we do consider now. 788 00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:24,560 And therein lies a massive problem a little bit like the 789 00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:27,600 whole idea of knowledge and even the very discussion we're 790 00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:29,960 having. I mean, this, this people who 791 00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:32,920 would want to enter into a discussion like this or even 792 00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:37,000 listen to it are in a very, very small minority. 793 00:50:37,680 --> 00:50:39,080 I wouldn't have it any other way. 794 00:50:39,080 --> 00:50:44,080 I would, I would not want at all to be in a position where you 795 00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:46,480 just don't even think about these things because they're 796 00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:50,120 just, you know, that that's you just go through life and it sort 797 00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:53,000 of passes you by and you just get what you get that, that I, I 798 00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:54,720 think that would be, that would be appalling. 799 00:50:54,720 --> 00:50:58,960 Even if in considering these things, you, you appreciate that 800 00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:02,640 the situation is not perhaps exactly as you'd have it. 801 00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:07,920 But but yes, I, I, I think this is, this is sort of what it goes 802 00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:11,160 back to this, this idea of through cooperation and all the 803 00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:13,960 rest of it, we've, we've achieved what is regarded as 804 00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:17,200 sort of development. But but with that comes this 805 00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:20,680 extraordinary sort of slack in the system and, and, and it's 806 00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:23,320 kind of what what the, what the heck do we do with that? 807 00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:25,000 And, and then that leads into what? 808 00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:27,040 And you know, let's have a monocle, let's have a democracy 809 00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:29,120 or, or, you know, all the other stuff that you wouldn't have had 810 00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:31,360 when it was just right. We need to go and get some food 811 00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:34,000 today. Yeah. 812 00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:36,840 But I mean, what the point that I was making, I mean, I'm 813 00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:39,000 agreeing with you, but the point I was making is that nobody sits 814 00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:41,960 down and and says, right, this is how we're going to run our 815 00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:44,400 household. It just naturally occurs. 816 00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:45,920 Yeah, sure. No, no, I mean, sorry, but I 817 00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:48,400 wasn't trying to disagree. I I all I was doing was, was 818 00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:50,680 sort of harking back to a time where it's just right. 819 00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:52,800 Well, you know, if you don't, if you don't jump across the 820 00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:54,640 ravine, now that bear will eat you. 821 00:51:55,240 --> 00:51:57,120 And. And we, we, I think that that's 822 00:51:57,120 --> 00:51:58,400 how I tend to think of it. Now. 823 00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:01,640 It's not so much with the ravines or bears, sadly, but 824 00:52:01,720 --> 00:52:05,240 yeah. Also, I just want to point out, 825 00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:09,440 because I'm fairly certain that somebody will mention this, but 826 00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:14,520 the anarchy or anarchist view of having no sort of governance 827 00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:17,800 structure. I used to think that I just see 828 00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:21,480 it as as silly. Now I think it's just, it's just 829 00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:24,560 academic. It's what it's what people think 830 00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:26,800 could work. But I mean, it doesn't happen in 831 00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:30,320 reality. Human nature needs hierarchy. 832 00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:33,480 Well, I think that goes back to the we are where we are based. 833 00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:39,560 And, and so it's, it's largely A hypothetical, but I, but I, I, I 834 00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:42,600 think, I think I would say there's a pretty strong case for 835 00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:47,320 it in conditions where there's, if we talk about what the, the, 836 00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:53,200 you know, will Keats preposition that that you're at liberty to 837 00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:57,160 do whatever it is you would like to do until that encroaches on 838 00:52:57,520 --> 00:53:00,360 somebody else's ability to do the same. 839 00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:05,960 And if you're if, if people are in such a situation where there 840 00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:13,520 is an availability of land, resources, et cetera, and 841 00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:16,960 therefore there is no need for people to necessarily come into 842 00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:19,880 conflict with one another. I can see exactly how that would 843 00:53:19,880 --> 00:53:21,400 work. And that, I mean, I, I do need 844 00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:25,680 to just turn this into a kind of cyclical conversation, But, but 845 00:53:25,680 --> 00:53:29,360 I do think that that there is absolutely a way in which that 846 00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:33,120 can work without there needing to be any sort sort of formal 847 00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:34,680 hierarchy. Because look what you've just 848 00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:37,640 described, you've just described a family unit working, you know, 849 00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:40,440 having a natural hierarchy. Well, no, as you say, you don't, 850 00:53:40,440 --> 00:53:43,520 you don't draw some document up and pin it on the House notice 851 00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:45,400 board. You just, you just do it. 852 00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:48,000 And I, and I think that that's sort of the way I look at it. 853 00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:49,520 So I think the terminology is confusing. 854 00:53:49,520 --> 00:53:52,520 I think I think people are people have this idea that 855 00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:55,120 anarchy and chaos are are the same thing. 856 00:53:55,120 --> 00:53:56,680 I don't that's not how I see it at all. 857 00:53:56,760 --> 00:53:58,120 No, exactly. They're not they're not the 858 00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:00,720 same. So the the trouble is, you know, 859 00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:03,400 largely in this day and age, it is of course, hypothetical. 860 00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:07,040 There are there are society. I can't, I can't speak of one 861 00:54:07,040 --> 00:54:09,040 off the top of my head, but there are definitely some 862 00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:13,640 societies in various parts of the world that do exist more or 863 00:54:13,640 --> 00:54:17,000 less on that basis without there being a, a rigid structure and, 864 00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:19,960 and any idea of a sort of defined leader that must be 865 00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:22,120 followed. But but yeah, they are few and 866 00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:24,600 far between and that and that's because of all the factors that 867 00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:28,680 I think we've talked about. I well, I mean, I think, I think 868 00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:33,440 to a certain degree what we have been discussing is slightly 869 00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:39,480 academic. I think that that or whatever my 870 00:54:39,480 --> 00:54:44,440 question at the end of the day would be the reality of, of our 871 00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:49,120 lives at the moment is, you know, 70 million people in the 872 00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:53,640 United Kingdom and whatever the populations of, of other major 873 00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:56,880 states are at the moment, that that's how we're organized at 874 00:54:56,880 --> 00:55:01,080 the moment. What what comes next in the, in 875 00:55:01,080 --> 00:55:05,720 the event that this democracy experiment has failed, which 876 00:55:05,720 --> 00:55:14,320 undoubtedly it has, how are we going to self organize to keep 877 00:55:14,320 --> 00:55:19,800 ourselves in one piece? Because when societies collapse, 878 00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:24,480 that can be quite a violent act. Now, maybe, maybe that's maybe 879 00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:27,040 that's part of the natural order, maybe that's something 880 00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:30,280 that's required. I don't know, but I'm sure it's 881 00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:33,040 something that most people would prefer to avoid. 882 00:55:33,720 --> 00:55:38,360 And I am, I am, I am most concerned at the moment that 883 00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:44,960 that people are so demoralized and disengaged that actually 884 00:55:44,960 --> 00:55:48,280 they're just going to sit and wait to see what's coming. 885 00:55:48,280 --> 00:55:51,240 And I think that's the best policy. 886 00:55:52,280 --> 00:55:54,360 I, I think these kinds of conversations are completely 887 00:55:54,360 --> 00:55:57,200 fascinating because I think they provoke all sorts of ideas and 888 00:55:57,200 --> 00:56:00,000 thoughts that we really should have, but largely don't. 889 00:56:00,840 --> 00:56:04,000 Sometimes they're, they're, they can be a little bit sensitive. 890 00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:06,000 Sometimes, of course, exactly like we said, they're very 891 00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:07,880 nebulous because we just, we don't really know. 892 00:56:07,880 --> 00:56:10,440 We don't we don't know what really what happened in the past 893 00:56:10,440 --> 00:56:12,160 and we certainly don't know exactly what's going to happen 894 00:56:12,160 --> 00:56:15,520 in the future. I think in looking at the United 895 00:56:15,520 --> 00:56:19,200 Kingdom in particular in what would be described as Western 896 00:56:19,560 --> 00:56:22,680 civilizations, Western democracies, I think yes, for 897 00:56:22,680 --> 00:56:25,920 sure there probably will be conflict, violent conflict in in 898 00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:27,800 some places as these systems collapse. 899 00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:30,840 But I think actually probably to a far lesser extent than we 900 00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:32,680 imagine. And I think that is it, it, this 901 00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:35,400 is exactly what I'm talking about in, in so far as the 902 00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:38,960 system sort of implodes rather than explodes, because I think 903 00:56:38,960 --> 00:56:43,960 that populations now, the UK in particular, has become so 904 00:56:44,880 --> 00:56:46,960 weakened. This is sort of how we finished 905 00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:49,200 last week. But but the, the actual 906 00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:53,320 condition of the humans that are operating within this system is 907 00:56:53,320 --> 00:56:59,120 so far below what it was that I don't think that that sort of 908 00:56:59,200 --> 00:57:02,360 level of activity is really even possible. 909 00:57:02,600 --> 00:57:04,440 So either mentally or physically. 910 00:57:04,800 --> 00:57:09,920 So I don't think they'll be, they'll be sort of catastrophic 911 00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:15,560 and cataclysmic result. But I do think that that things 912 00:57:15,560 --> 00:57:21,480 will break to such a point where a new system must emerge. 913 00:57:21,480 --> 00:57:24,360 And what form that takes, I don't know, but it should. 914 00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:26,640 But you know that I, I don't think that should be regarded as 915 00:57:26,640 --> 00:57:28,720 a negative. It should absolutely be a a 916 00:57:28,720 --> 00:57:33,000 positive because it it does return to the idea of there 917 00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:36,520 being a natural order and there being a proper understanding of 918 00:57:36,520 --> 00:57:40,320 people having liberty, which by and large people just have no 919 00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:43,360 idea about. I'd very much like to see South 920 00:57:43,360 --> 00:57:45,920 Africa break apart into various kingdoms. 921 00:57:47,440 --> 00:57:49,720 I think we'll have a more successful future than we do 922 00:57:49,720 --> 00:57:51,720 right now. Yeah, but that's my personal 923 00:57:51,720 --> 00:57:52,560 view. Yeah. 924 00:57:53,080 --> 00:57:55,200 OK. Charles, Mike, thanks for the 925 00:57:55,200 --> 00:57:57,920 discussion, for the banter. I'll catch up with you guys next 926 00:57:57,920 --> 00:57:58,080 week.