My name is June. This is June.
Warfare, the battle of ideas. OK, after a couple of weeks of
silence, you guys are back. Kind of Say me, Charles, you
still no. There's no you still.
Yeah, OK, working. Our way working our way back,
slowly, slowly, yeah, but we're but we are work on the line.
Weirdly enough, you still sort of in former UK territory,
Charles. Yeah, absolutely.
This is it. I'm, I'm in Hong Kong and yeah,
it's funny. I, I was thinking about exactly
that on the way here. It was a typically British
experience, the journey I just had to where I am now in that I
got into a taxi and sat in traffic for the 1st 10 minutes
not moving anywhere at all. So home from home in that
regard. But yeah, but it's funny, the,
the, there is, I think, I think when you know what to look for,
certainly in terms of where the British footprint has been left
in various parts of the world, then then you, you, you know,
sort of what to identify. But I, but I do think, sadly, I
never came to Hong Kong prior to 97, so I don't have a direct
comparison to make. And there's no doubt it's
changed a lot since then. But there's only a simply
driving on the left hand side of the road for a start.
And there are, yeah, lots of things like the ferry, you know,
the, the Star Ferry that runs across the harbour still exactly
the same as it was over, you know, 100 and how many years
ago. So, yeah, there, there are lots
of absolutely lots of nods to the past, but like everywhere, a
huge number of pointers towards the future or, or just an
indication of how much times have changed.
Well, it's interesting. I know we've talked about this
before. The Hong Kong still uses cash
absolutely everywhere. I've so far, I've been here a
week now. So far I've only had to pay, not
using cash once, which I think is pretty good.
And yeah, I, I, it's interesting how those two things can be
alongside each other. The fact that you can have
enormous development, let's call it, and huge technological
advancement. So there are the options for
doing all these things. I don't even understand.
In fact, the girl who when I when I produce cash to pay and
she said, can you produce something else, which can you
use something else to pay with? And like an idiot, I just took
out a card and said, I think you mean this.
And then of course she reeled off several different ways in
which I could have paid without a card.
So just shows how much I know, but that so all that is there
and you can do it if you want, but the chances are that you
will actually be able to carry on paying with cash which is
really nice. I'm quite jealous.
A few months ago, Mike, you were jealous of me going to China and
then you went to China and I was jealous of you so.
So we even. No, I mean, I was jealous of you
going to Xinjiang in in particular, because that is a
part of the world that I'm fascinated by.
And, you know, it's clearly culturally totally different to,
to the the rest of China and, and just just for purely
historical Silk Road reasons. I, I'm fascinated by the by the
place. So I'd like to, I would love to
go and see it. So that was why I was
particularly jealous. Yeah.
I mean, it's, I think you probably had a fantastic
experience there. I mean, look, you're right.
The Silk Road, Belton Rd. initiative, Xinjiang is
completely different to the rest of China and it has huge
history. And not just culturally, Mike, I
mean geopolitically, traditionally cuisine,
everything is different. I mean, it's, it's more Central
Asia than than it is China. Well, a date, but yes, indeed.
But I was, I was thinking more in terms of the, the, the
historical rather than the modern.
But, but obviously the, I've seen the, I've seen the, the
trailer for the documentary that's, that's being made at the
moment. And, and clearly that is a, a, a
part of the world which is changing very rapidly now.
Why were you there? Why were we in China?
We were invited to China by Marcel Janka.
Who is has been a AUK column member since 2019 or 2020.
And and he has been running a business in China for I don't
know how long. And every year they they run a,
a sort of annual company event, which, which this year he
invited us to along with a number of others.
Carl was there, Pepe Escobar was there a number of other people
that that probably UK column viewers will be aware of because
Marcel wanted to sort of show off some of his other activities
to to the people that were to to his company's employees.
And, and, and it was it was also an opportunity just to, to go
and see a, a city in China that that we hadn't seen before.
So, so we were absolutely taking around the place very similar to
the, to the kind of city tours and, and other tours that that
that I did back in April last year when I went just on
holiday. But you know, this was really
just an opportunity to, to meet his people in, you know, that
that work in that part of the world.
So it was, it was a fantastic experience.
Well. As well I think.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, just, you know, I think
the fact, the fact that we were that there we were OK, four of
us from UK column, you and I and Chris and Gemma and there, you
know, the, the vast majority of well, in fact, I think all but
Marcel are spread across China, Chinese nationals.
And therefore for them to look at what we do and what some of
the others are doing in the context of their lives and
professional backgrounds, I think was was a fascinating
exchange. But both ways.
I mean, we, Mike and I were totally gripped by what we saw.
It was, it was absolutely remarkable by any metric.
So I think, yeah, I think that's just an important point to make
was that there was, there was definitely, you know, huge sort
of interest both ways. I mean, Jeremy, we've, we've
had, you know, we've had a few communications from people in
the last couple of weeks asking about Marcel because, because
of. Stuff that's I was going to ask
on the. Internet at the moment, but but
look, I mean he is he is German national originally he set up a
business in China to producing Charles.
I would I would guess we would describe it as traditional
medicines. Traditional Chinese medicine?
Yeah. Plant based medicines, yeah.
Right. So it's, yeah, I mean, I've,
I've seen the medicines, they it's not pharmaceutical at all.
No, and he, he has done very well at that and he has
supported a lot of people in, in particularly since COVID
happened. He's supported a lot of people
that have been speaking out against what's, what's been
going on in the world. And as I say, he's been Auk
column member since since around the COVID time, a little bit
before maybe. And, and, and he has made he has
supported us a lot over that, over that period of time.
And I have to say he's, he's one of the, the, the I, I, I just
enjoy his, his company. Anytime we do meet up, he is a
fantastic bloke. So, you know, we're, we're
delighted to have him on board. And, and you know, he's
extremely generous with his time and, and with his ideas and so
on. But you know, we've always got
to keep in mind that that the UK column is the UK column and, and
he has just want to reinforce his point.
He has no desire to to see us heading in any direction other
than the one that we were intending to go in.
So, so just to to set everybody's mind at rest on that
point. Sorry, I pressed the wrong
button. I've known myself for for many
years, I mean, from when I was back at TNT.
And you're quite correct. He just wants a better future
for for, you know, his kids and for our kids.
And and that's how it should be. We all should want a better
future. I get so annoyed, Mike, at this
constant bickering within the opposition, quote UN quote
movement. And we've spoken about this
before, but it again, it's relevant because I, I constantly
see even myself being accused of being controlled opposition and
whatever else. Now, Mike, your degree of
control over me is terrible. I have to admit.
You've, you've got to up your game.
I mean, I mean, I mean, I mean, I hosted a show where the guest
argued that Earth is flat. You should have stopped that
Mike. And then Mike disappeared.
And with that, he's gone. Yeah, what has happened that
That's very annoying. That's extremely impressive.
Well, I can still hear. I can still hear you, Mike.
Well. Done.
Hold on, hold on a second. Let me see what we can do here,
kind of turn this off and turn this back on again.
You see, that's, that's the level of, of, of control you
have, Mike. You can't control camera even.
Or that, that that somebody has to be able to manipulate at
every stage. What's going on in the
background? See there?
He's there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, look, I'm just going to have to, I'm just going to have
to use the the the laptop camera.
I'm not sure why that has happened so.
That's fine. We'll just, you were going to,
you were going to say Mike. What was going to say?
Yeah, you were asking about about the the sort of bickering
within the opposition groups. Look, we have to always remember
that that we are in an information war.
And, you know, at at the end of the day, people are going to be
influenced by a lot of the stuff which is pushed out on various
formats and platforms. But you know, over the, you
know, we've been doing this for 20 years, Germ.
And in that time the amount of stuff that has appeared on the
Internet about us, which has been absolutely factually
incorrect, possibly defamatory in many cases.
So I take everything that I see about anybody with a massive
pinch of salt. Now, Marcel has supported a lot
of people over the last five or six years in particular.
And some of those people, for whatever reason, that
relationship is broken down. And as a result there is the
usual vitriol doing the rounds about him from one or two
people. But I look at this from the
point of view that, you know, the, the number of people that,
that are massively appreciative of the help that he has given
over the years vastly outweighs the number of people that are
complaining about him. And that applies, I think, to to
us and to just about everybody else that's doing this in any
kind of honest way. So our view has always been that
bearing in mind that we have been in the receiving end of
this kind of nonsense for so many years and so many instances
of it that that we absolutely will not get involved in that
kind of effort. Because what is the point at the
end of the day, whether somebody that that's, that's an
opposition or who claims to be resisting the agenda is
attacking us or not, we're not the enemy because we're not,
we're not pursuing these agenda, these agenda items that, that
are the ones that are intended to, to, to enslave us or
whatever it is that that people are particularly concerned about
at this, at this moment in time. So our efforts should be
directed at the at the policy makers, at the governments, at
the financiers that are that are building this technocracy that
we're seeing at the moment and are using war as as a mechanism
to to drive public support for the direction they're going in.
So why would we focus any attention on any of the people
that are really not relevant to this discussion?
Yeah, but that's the point. And I mean, going back to
Marcel, I mean, a lot of people don't know you were talking
about how he's helped numerous individuals over the years.
I mean, Secret Bhakti was one of my very first interviews ever.
And I think that was back in 2020.
And he was heavily attacked by the German government
particularly. In fact, you might remember they
wanted to take him down and they took him legal, and they wanted
to absolutely destroy him. And who was there to help Secret
was Marcel. And I mean only a good person
would do that. Sukrit was also is a great man.
He's one of the best, absolutely one of the best.
Sorry, Charles, Go ahead. No, no, I mean, I was only going
to say, you know, that that that story, I think is is absolutely
sort of illustrative because it, you know, in doing say that that
action that Marcel took forged, you know, very close bond
between the two. And to hear I, I, I don't know
Sukrit bhakti, but to hear Marcel talk about him is it is
wonderful. And I think it, it absolutely
exemplifies what we should be thinking about, which should be,
which are the human relationships and fostering
positivity and concentrating on what can be done and what should
be done and dealing with obstacles, true obstacles that
are put in our path. And, and to look at it the other
way, you know, as you've just been alluding to, I do find it
completely remarkable. But also it it, it sort of tells
you everything you need to know to see that people are
dedicating their energies to attacking those around them who
are ostensibly apparently trying to, well, I say, trying to do
the same thing. They're they're apparently
seeing many of the same things and yet the chosen course of
action for it seems like an increasing number of people.
Maybe it's not an increasing number of people.
Maybe it is just the sort of multiplier effect of social
media. But but it, it, it does at times
seem like an increasing number of people are utterly blindsided
by the idea that rather than concentrating on the things that
they could be doing about their own lives or about those that we
discuss sort of ad infinitum, you know, that the, the powers
that be, the corporations, that those that are running corrupt
governments and whatnot. Instead, there is a, a sort of
turn inwards and a, you know, and A and sort of vicious
attacking. And I think the point, I think
that the point I'm making specifically with regard to the
back D relationship is, is that it, it in, in doing the, the
sort of inward attack, everything is negative.
There's there's absolutely nothing positive about that.
It is, it is all bringing people down.
It's all it's ego. It's ego.
Well, it, I, I think, I think that is that is also true.
But in, in, you know, I talk about this a lot.
If you, if you want to realise an intention or a dream or a
goal or whatever you want to call it, you have to visualize
it in such a way that you believe that not only it's
attainable, but you are actually going to attain it.
And the reverse is true. So if you don't believe that and
you just want to wallow in sort of self pity and negativity and
sour grapes and all that sort of thing, well, where's that?
Where's that going to take you? And, and I, I feel it is a great
pity that so many people have a tendency to get drawn into this
as though it's meaningful. Of course, we're never going to
be in a position where everybody on supposedly sort of one side
is going to be utterly unified in their thinking and their
actions. But So what?
Concentrate on the overlapping ground and the positive steps.
And if there's something you see that you don't like, fine, just
just steer clear of it. But to to get distracted to the
point of that consuming your focus for your output.
Is it? It is, it's a disaster really.
And and you know, as I say, a great pity for those who might
once have seen a better future, but actually have become sort of
deluded by the the absolute nonsense that swirls around
there and then. And then to consider though
that's actually important when it's not, it's just absolute
NIF, NAF and trivia and doesn't just doesn't deserve the time of
day. Look, that is a really, really
important point Jaren, because, because this is something that
has frustrated me since September 11th, 2001, frankly,
because what happened with the that's a perfect example.
What happened with the so-called 911 truth movement over the next
26 years as we are vastly, rapidly approaching.
What happened was the divided across 2 camps, the architects
for engineers camp and the Judy Wood camp, right?
And, and what happened was they started fighting each other.
And for the last 26 years they've been fighting each
other. 25 years, sorry, they've been fighting each other, right?
What is the point of that? To no matter.
Whether you believe, No matter whether you exactly, no matter
whether you believe in controlled demolition or whether
you believe in directed energy weapons, both parties believe
and can agree that it was not the aircraft that brought the
buildings down. So why not focus on that?
They can have their discussions about which is who's right about
that. That is something that they can
have internally within the movement.
But the, the, the campaign point is it wasn't the aircraft that
it was therefore a, a, an inside job.
And that that inside job has been used to justify a whole
host of historical events that have brought us to this point
today where we're staring down the barrels of potentially
global conflict or at the very least technocracy, right?
Yes, that, that that focus of that entire effort should have
been on that. And everything else is
superfluous to that. Mike.
This is the problem with the opposition movement, since we
are determined to RIP each other's heads off instead of
fighting the actual enemy. And it drives me nuts, I have to
admit it. It absolutely drives me up the
wall. Me too, I'm having arguments
lately with friends who are caught up in the same nonsense
and I keep saying but what is the end goal here?
What are you trying to do? Is it an ego battle?
Are you actually interested in taking down a, the official
narrative or, or, or or you or you try to fulfill the prophecy,
you know, made by Sun Tzu when you destroy the opposition from
within. And I, I, I see the same thing
you mentioned 911 Mike, the same thing with the whole no virus
thing. Yes, 100%, exactly the same.
Yes. And that argument about virus,
no, virus has been running for 150 years, 200 years, whatever
it is, we're not going to solve it at this point in time.
But let's all fight about it right now because that way we
can distract ourselves and we're not actually having to deal with
the the, the real because guess what guys?
We're scared of the real enemy, right?
And this is, I think this is really what this is the
psychology behind it. Aside from the fact that the
real enemy is pushing in, you know, narratives from outside.
I think a large part of this is the fact that people would would
prefer to be fighting amongst themselves and actually fighting
the beast that they see in front of them.
Because that beast is very, very big.
And they're very, very scared of it.
And it's got lots of money and they don't really know what to
do about it there. There's a lot of very complex
psychology going on here. There is and I think I think I,
I think interestingly, you know, going back to where we started
on this conversation here, Mike and I just had a trip to China.
I I'm now in Hong Kong. Marcel who've been talking about
now UK column shareholder really sort of important part of the
team has worked in China, worked in Japan, worked all over Asia
and has a company that operates in China.
So for this sort of thinking that we're describing the the
confluence of, you know, the idea of not confronting the
things that should be confronted.
And indeed, the spectre of China as it's presented by the
mainstream has just been a gift. Because for the for the idle
thinker, that is a sort of ah, right, yeah, OK, China and UK
column, but sort of put them in the same sentence now.
And then we can do the the big sort of conjuring trick of which
is exactly what the British government is doing, which is to
say China is China is a threat. And there are things happening
in China that that we must be very wary of.
And if we keep your eyes over there, then you won't pay
attention to what's happening right here and you won't
consider that the conditions here are actually probably
already worse than what's being described in.
I mean, you know, China is the obvious example.
It's so it's so easy. I mean, in a way you could sort
of pick your your threatening or problematic state elsewhere.
But I but I do feel China exactly is, is just it is the
ultimate proxy for denying what's right in front of you.
You know, what are you to do? This terrible problem of whether
it's sort of Chinese surveillance, spying, or the
fact that they're supposedly running this awfully oppressive
state where it seems you can actually do more or less what
you want to do. But nonetheless, huge
distraction and if you keep talking about it, then again, in
the same way you do not need to confront the things that are
going on specifically in the UK around you about which actually
if you focused, you might be able to do something.
Well, going back to the 9/11 comment, Mike.
So I interviewed A gentleman by the name of Matt Campbell a few
times actually, and he has spent I think close to £300,000 if
memory serves, which is a huge amount of money.
Sure, not all of these own a lot of its donations and and all
sorts of other things. Trying to get the British
government to reopen the investigation so that he can
actually find out what happened to his brother who died that
day. What, what has happened since
he's getting attacked by the darted energy weapons group
saying, oh, but you this is all controlled.
It's, it's gatekeeping, blah, blah, blah.
So what are they ultimately doing?
They're they're trying to stop something that's really, really
important. And by the way, Marcel also
helped with the with a bit of the obvious legal of his legal
funds, which obviously makes him a really bad person for doing
that, right, Because because that's only what that's only
what controlled opposition folks do.
They they try and support the government, but I mean it, it
just blows my mind when when people are are are more
interested in their own egos. But something in you and I spoke
about Mike on the phone, that there is also an element of
design here, this infiltration. Yes, I, I mean, I, I would
absolutely guarantee that there's infiltration in, in many
of these campaigns. And of course, it's very, very
hard to identify exactly who might who those infiltrating
voices might be. And, and really, at the end of
the day, we should probably not be spending too much time or
energy trying to work out exactly who it is.
What we should be spending our time and energy doing is working
out what the, what the right message should be and, and
trying to work out what is divisive within our within,
within our communities and, and try to deal with the
divisiveness. But we don't deal with it by
fighting the people that are, that are pushing what are
divisive narratives. We, we, we deal with it by
making our, our positions, our, the, the, the, the, the approach
we're taking needs to be better, right?
So, so I view each of these types of, of attacks as an
opportunity to, to, to rethink how we're presenting the
information and, and making that argument stronger.
If, if, if this is what I actually believe, then that's
what I'm presenting, then I've got to make that argument
stronger or, and I'm not going to say that it has never
happened. There are times when actually
it, it causes me to rethink my argument altogether.
That's that's part and parcel of evolution of, of positions and,
and, and actually analyzing the evidence.
But you know, deciding on what are the the most productive ways
to make your points and deciding when that discussion about
whether this is right or that is right should be something that
happens in the background and not something which is being
presented out front. This is part of what we have to
do every day, and hopefully we mostly get it right.
Well. Not always, but hopefully
mostly. Well, obviously an underlying
theme here is China. And I wanna just touch on this
just a bit more because since I mean, since you are there,
Charles, and you were there, Mike and I was there.
And so now there's this common denominator.
We all seem to have this connection to China.
And we've seen some of the comments on YouTube, for
example, where they go, oh, you guys have become China column.
So you might, you might see some of the feedback going, oh, but
you guys are just making excuses.
You are becoming more. China orientated.
Anybody that thinks that hasn't been paying attention, right?
Because because I started talking about about this
20/15/2016, part of the part of the reason I started talking
about this was because it was absolutely clear going back 1516
years, it was clear that that the British government has been
building a case for conflict with Russia and China.
And they've been doing it very systematically and, and the
types of people that have. And the US government.
Well, but, but let's just focus on Britain because because
that's, that's, that's really what we're mostly concerned
about here. But but the people that were
driving these agendas were the likes of Richard Dearlove.
And I'm saying to people, well, hold on a second.
Richard Dearlove is the man who we all agree created the yellow
cake narrative which brought us to to into war in Iraq, which we
all agree that Tony Blair is basically should be tried for
war crimes as a result of we all agree that the Iraq war was was
wrong and the person who created that narrative was Richard
Dearlove. Richard Dearlove comes along
creating a narrative about Russia and China and we say,
yeah, let's have that because we don't like Russia and China so
we agree with them. Sorry, that's not how it works
in my book. That man, it was was C He was
head of MI 6. He has an agenda.
Now, I have never taken the position that China or Russia
can do no wrong. They are governments and States
and governments and states do things that people in those
countries don't like. That's that's not the point.
I'm trying to make my point in what we have been doing since
now, I've been talking about this certainly since 20/15/2016
is to say, well, hold on a second, the British government
wants you to believe this about this country.
Actually, there's another side of this.
And it's no way to let China off with anything in terms of
technocracy or you know, the, whatever's going on in, in
Central Africa with, with child labour and, and cobalt mines and
these kinds of things. We we should not be letting
anybody away with anything. But what we have got to do is to
try to be a bit more objective about what the country is and
whether we should be believing that it is some kind of enemy
that we've got to fight. I mean, for example, the perfect
example of this was the whole campaign of our Huawei and
Huawei equipment being on Western and British 5G networks.
Why was Britain, this was viewed or just being presented by the
British government as being a national security issue?
Why was it viewed as a national security issue?
Was it because they were worried about Huawei's equipment being
installed and then the Chinese government hoovering up huge
quantities of Western data, including government and
military data? Or was it because every piece of
Huawei kit on the network means that it's not Palo Alto Networks
or Checkpoint, which is is really intelligence agency
backed, right? And and therefore it's therefore
the the Western, the Five Eyes plus Israel can't get access to
that information now. In fact, what Huawei did was
they give the British intelligence agencies the source
code that was going to be running and every piece of kit
that was being sold in the United Kingdom.
And actually MI 5 and MI 6 accepted that there was nothing
wrong with it. And, but, but for political
reasons, the decision was made that, that, that that kit should
not be there. So, and in the and in the
meantime, we're getting as we, we highlighted on the UK column
news just before we went to China stories in the Telegraph,
which are just so absolutely ridiculous.
It's how it could even be described as journalism is, is
beyond me. But suggesting that that China
has got is, is intending to to Snoop on fiber optic cables that
are running along the street outside their new embassy in
London. I mean, the thing was just the
story was just so incredible that, you know, how they got
away with it, I don't know. But anyway, so my point is this
is not something this our position on China, our editorial
position on China is not one that that is new.
It's, it has been something that's been running for years.
It's designed, it's, it's intended to counter the
narrative which is there to, which decided to drive public
opinion in the direction of conflict with a country that we
don't need to be in conflict with.
And it's, it's, it's hypocritical in so many ways
because while every, all the people that are in are in the UK
that are being, and they're being radicalized.
Let's, let's put the correct word on this.
They're being radicalized to believe that China is this
massive enemy. They're all buying their iPhones
and their computers and their bits of tech and their plastic
tat. Let's all be made in China.
So if you really don't believe that China is, or if you believe
that China is the enemy and stop buying Chinese goods that that
seems to be, otherwise it's their position's hypocritical.
It would be my argument, but but anyway, none of what we say is
intended to ever let anybody, Russia or China off with
anything. And if there's criticism to be
made of those countries, and goodness knows Vanessa is
criticizing both heavily at the moment because of their their
position on Syria, on their position on Gaza and with some
justification. So, so we aren't going to stop
the critical voices, even though I personally, I'm trying to, to
say to people, look, you got to, you got to actually think about
what it is you're being told about these countries because
it's not necessarily true. I mean, when I was in China, I
spoke to both Vanessa and and Whitney Webb incidentally, and
both of them were, were giving me very, very, shall we say,
less than positive information about the Chinese government.
Because like every other country, China has a government
and it also has its own deep state and it also has its own
warts. But you see the problem here
Mike is, and you were basically saying this is that there is
this deep rooted psychology that has been the result of years and
years and years of propaganda and anti China indoctrination
that the moment you say something positive, anything
positive about anything to do with China, you're a shell or
you're a grifter. When I came back, I received
more negative response than I think I did when I took on the
vaccine during during the COVID era.
I've never experienced such a harsh negative pushback.
And for what? Simply for.
You know, but you know why Germ the the reason is because of
Trump's position on China and Farage's position on China, that
that's why people people need to stop listening to to these types
of, of voices and, and actually think about things and and
decide for themselves. But, but you know, that's part
of why we went. And Charles, I'm sure is going
to say something about this because because at the end of
the day, we we should not be relying on on the stuff that's
out there. It's if, if possible, we should
all be actually going and looking for ourselves.
Yeah, I think that's the that's the point at which I'd like to
chime in because what fascinates me about China, I mean, it would
apply to other places, except that other places don't seem to
draw fire in quite the way in quite the same way that China
does. What what I find absolutely
amazing is how invested people can become in a narrative
without any first hand experience of it whatsoever.
So you have people talking about the, the surveillance state in
China. I didn't have my notebook out
with me, but I was keeping a mental note of, for example, the
amount of CCTV cameras in the airports at each end.
Without a doubt, Heathrow Airport had more cameras per
square foot than anywhere else we went.
The idea that somehow having to fill out a form in order to
apply for a visa for China is in some way an an out of the park
authoritarian measure is ridiculous.
I I have worked and travelled in more than 70 countries in the
world. This is not unusual.
And actually look at what happened as a result of the
stammer visit for Brits, 30 days visa free travel, et cetera.
So this absolutely peculiar idea that China is in some way an
outlier, it's completely extraordinary.
The only places I have ever felt the full force of the law, let's
say, and taken hiding from police and indeed been stolen,
been robbed by police, was in Ukraine of all places.
Again, an absolutely lovely place, terrifically corrupt.
But you know, so, so I mean, what, what's, what's the point?
The other place, the, the only other place where I have
encountered, let's say, unfair or incorrect policing has been
in the United Kingdom. And this is exactly my point.
Yet we have people who are largely based in the United
Kingdom who are absolutely convinced that what they're told
about China without visiting is A, true and B, so completely
different from anywhere else. And I mean, it is just not the
case. I do caveat that, of course,
because doubtless some people will have thought are, but
you've just been there just this one time, Okay, It's not
strictly true. I have been there once
previously. I'm not, I'm not claiming to be
speaking from anything other than the very brief experience I
have had there. So I'm going on what I have
seen, what I have heard and what I have gleaned from the
conversations I have had with people that do live there.
But I, I absolutely saw nothing that was beyond the parameters
within which we exist in the West.
Absolutely nothing. And the other point I would like
to make, which is a really important one.
And Mike spoke about the city Chongqing that we, that we were
in on Wednesday's news programme.
One of the defining characteristics of it, first of
all, it's enormous size. I think Mike said 20 something.
I, the figure I'd heard was 32,000,000 people.
Either way, there's a heck of a lot of people there.
And yet in the time that we spent, which was nearly a full
week, and we did travel out and about a lot, I saw not one
instance of anything other than completely cordial behaviour.
There was a sense of complete calm in the place.
And before anyone might leap to the conclusion that our it's
because they're surveilled, it's because there are police, you
know, sort of tapping their truncheons on every corner.
No, it's not that that does not exist.
That is not a thing. And I can't explain why that is.
But it was a very, very interesting talking point
because particularly there, Karl Zarb's on the trip as well.
He's from Chongqing. He left in 1990.
And it was just in passing, actually, I just said to him,
gosh, it is so extraordinary to come across a place with this
concentrated a population and to experience such in sort of
complete tranquility. Okay, this was multiplied.
And then this is, I'm not, I'm not trying to sell the, the
concept, but by and large vehicles there are electric.
So there's, it's really quiet. It's, it's sort of eerie
actually, because not only have you got quiet from the, the
roads themselves, but also quiet from the people.
They're not screaming and shouting and seeking attention
like like sort of British teenagers who who you know,
can't help but sort of spray fizzy drinks all over the place,
screaming and shouting. Just generally, you know, that
that sort of nuisance factor absolutely was not a thing at
all. And yet Carl was saying that
when he left back in 1990, the sense of sort of friction and,
and crime in particular was completely different from how it
is now. And the, the, the what the
talking point for that was I, Mike and I were both looking at
some motorbikes parked out, none of which were locked and even
people just left their helmet unattended on top of the bike.
You would never do that anywhere in the UK now, sadly, maybe
parts Scotland and Wales, but but basically you wouldn't, it
would be half inched in in seconds and and somehow, and I
believe across all of, if not most of, oh, sorry, most of, if
not all of China, this is now a common factor.
And that went alongside the sense of sort of order and
discipline and also really strong, I don't know quite how
you describe it. I was going to say family
values. What was what was very, very
obvious was that people walked around in families.
And partly that's because internal tourism is such a big
part of the economy. So anyway, you go now is
populated by enormous numbers of Chinese tourists.
And so therefore, it stands to the reason they would be
families. And obviously we're now we're
nearly at Chinese New Year. So that would that would explain
it to a certain degree, But there really was a very, very
strong family ethos. But the but the idea again that,
you know, China is this sort of downtrodden, broken, subjugated
population because of the threat from the authority or whatever.
Actually police were evident in places, but only they kept a
very low profile. Absolutely nothing like driving
around or walking around the city centre in the United
Kingdom where you would see many, many more police vehicles.
You would absolutely without doubt see what I would describe
as nuisance or just aggro or just chaos.
And there was none of that either.
So I'm not saying I know the answers.
I don't. I couldn't articulate or trace
back to 1990 or whenever that began to change and say why that
has happened. And yes, OK, that that
undoubtedly there may be an element of control, let's say,
or the idea that that not to toe the line would have negative
consequences, but it it, that that was absolutely not an
evidence. And, and people, there was no
demonstration at all that people felt sort of, you know, fearful.
So that that was a very interesting point to make.
And, and, and I think, you know, the, the way, certainly the way
that Carl spoke about it, I think it'd be worth talking to
him more about this was the sort of thread between and, and this
is dangerous territory, but, but the idea that the population was
sort of pulled up by it's bootstraps by means of
education, regional investment, internal investment, and, and
also the, you know, embracing the idea of sense of national
pride, but in, in a, in a very genuine way.
And, and then the other thing, sorry, no, I've gone on for a
while. The other thing which which I
would just like to finish off by saying is in terms of the sort
of, you know, going back to their love and whatnot.
The other thing people are utterly ignorant of is, is the
history of China, but also the recent history concerning the
British position and the British involvement in China.
We have done nothing to that country except for try to shaft
it and look back at the Victorian period and and what
was happening there. You know, the opium trade, the
Opium wars, the the ports, the treaties at absolutely at every
turn the British sought to do nothing but exploit and cause
havoc in China. I was going to say that during
your dialogue there, your monologue there, Charles, you're
talking about them, but you are in China just as a, as a, as a
point of accuracy. Yes, yeah, OK, sorry, but I'm
just, I'm just making because I'm in Hong Kong.
I'm just making a distinction because people do still get a
bit touched about it. I'm I'm making that distinction
between Hong Kong and China. But you see, then then again,
that's another fascinating thing.
And I and I will bring this into the news next week because one
of the big talking points in Hong Kong at the moment is the
sentencing of Jimmy Lai, the, you know, supposedly a sort of,
you know, force around which the freedom movement coalesced in
2019. Now, I've had some very
interesting conversations with people here who have first hand
experience of some of the things that have been going on, let's
say slightly behind the scenes. So, so there's, there's more to
come out on that. But but, but that that is such a
clear indication of the absolutely nefarious, nefarious
foreign influence. And you know the, the I mean, we
see it all the time, But, but again, this idea that that China
is the negative or is exerting negative influence on Hong Kong.
And therefore people apparently are not going to or not going to
allow themselves to see what in particular the United States and
the United Kingdom might be doing in order to present that
very impression and what benefit they may derive from such an
outcome. Extraordinary.
There's also a very interesting dichotomy because there's an
inversion of reality. You know, you can go there and
you can say to to people, guys, it's not actually like that.
But Germ, he has a video of Jordan Peterson, who's never
been to China, saying that they that they, they, they have
screens, you know, on the streets where they make an
example of people who jaywalk. No, I didn't see that.
Anyway, it doesn't exist, but no, it doesn't exist.
But, but, but it's, it's, it's as Carl says, it's Western
projection, OK. Because the own system is
imploding and they don't like that.
So that like a cat that's caught in a corner, It's it's now it's,
it's what you call it. I've gone blank.
There we go. Yes.
And it's exactly that because it is an inversion of what is true.
Yeah. Yeah, it is.
It's a total impression. I mean, I obviously what I would
dearly love to do is, is be able to further substantiate my point
of view and my recent observations by spending a lot
more time there. And, and yes, I say particularly
there because it it does not seem to be.
Yeah, well, sorry. No, I mean, well, OK, Yeah, fine
here too. But the the point is that whilst
China is at the moment such a, a vector for this, you know, it is
a type of cognitive dissonance really, and diversion,
distraction, all this sort of thing.
It would be terrific to be able to build up a substantial body
of evidence. And I know, you know, to Mike's
point, obviously, really you can't speak about a place until
you have lived there because of course you're never as a
visitor, doesn't matter how long you spend there, you're never
going to be subject to the same sort of influences upon your
life until, until you, you know, especially if you're sort of
paying tax, owning property, how you're employed, all those sorts
of things. So, so clearly they, they exert
particular effect on you, but nonetheless, I think the more
one sees, the more one travels, the more one speaks to people
because that's it. You know, you, you just never
know what sort of what kind of a conversation you're going to
unlock. And that, and actually that
going back to what we were describing at the beginning in
terms of rubbing shoulders with people who work in a totally
different industry from what it is that we're doing.
But actually the, the mutual interest in one another's
business was, was, was fascinating.
And I, I, I, you know, I, I derive great pleasure from that.
And, and I, and I think, you know, gosh, how bizarre to think
that even in, even in the United Kingdom, it's still slightly, it
can be slightly awkward to describe, you know, working for
UK column it depending on who you are talking to and sort of
putting out there what it is you do do and how you, how you frame
that in order that you don't get an immediate sort of knee jerk
negative reactions. It's a little bit tricky, but
actually this discussing this in China of all places, you know,
irony upon irony was very straightforward and people,
people absolutely got utterly what it is that we do and why we
do it and why it's important. So anyway, well, I mean, you
know, we, we could go on, but no, I mean, in as objective a
sense as I can conjure, it was a totally fascinating, but but
also overwhelmingly positive experience.
And I, and I just reiterate the point that I'm this is not just
comparing China with the United Kingdom.
This is comparing China with many, many other places in the
world. And I think it, it, it's the
most populous country on Earth. It is one of the biggest.
I mean, why would we not talk about it?
Also, it's history, I think. I think the other thing there's,
I think really there must under the surface be to an extent A
terrific sense of perhaps jealousy because you see what
what China has. I mean, it would, it would
appear to be deliberate, but what China has managed to do,
even at this stage in the 21st century is, is absolutely retain
control over its customs and, and it's yes, exactly.
And, and that funnily enough, I've, I've actually come from
the Maritime Museum in Hong Kong, which gives a fascinating
account of the early days of maritime exploration in China
and then the conscious decision in the 15th century that it
would not be pursued and it. So whilst that effectively left
the door open for for the Western powers as they came to
be, to take over great swathes of the, the world via trade and
you know, stick or rifle or however you you want to describe
it, what it allowed was for China to develop inside
internally, you know, in it's own way, effectively unfussed by
the rest of the world. OK.
And and then that was controlled to a, to a greater degree
through having just Canton as the trade, you know, the sole
trade route. And of course the language being
relatively speaking and still today very inaccessible.
Whereas of course for the, for the, for the English language
and the British Empire, it's been absolutely, completely the
other way round. And again, not just trade, but
but Expeditionary warfare, intervention, whatever you
whatever you describe it as. And look at the things that
people are complaining about now in terms of migration in
particular. And this is This is why I think,
you know, Mike just going back into why he was talking about
China from, from when he was, but I think this pertains to all
the countries that we do talk about.
Yes, we are UK column news, but a massive part of first of all,
the UK's history has been meddling in the affairs of
people all over the world. And therefore the, the, the
backlash of that is, is exactly what people are identifying now.
So it is completely relevant that we talk about other parts
of the world. But that is a, that is a
critical distinction between certainly over that period of
history anyway, between the way in which the British well,
Empire as it became executed, it's aims compared with China,
which, OK, you might say that's, that's in a way just a different
point on the timeline in that China, I think I I would still
regard really as as an empire rather than a country.
You know, we talk about Xinjiang, for example, being
totally different sort of ethnically, culturally,
whatever, because at at the time that that landmass became known
as China, obviously the rest of the world was doing different
things. So, so anyway, that's sort of
splitting hairs, but but it, it is, I think it is really, really
significant. So as I say, the sort of
jealousy aspect that the United Kingdom now, you know, for a lot
of people, Oh God, migration's the big issue, digital ID
migration's the big issue, sort of either passive or very active
racism or, or this, that and the other.
But in fact, you look at why it's happened then it, it does
make a clear delineation between what people in the United
Kingdom and from the United Kingdom are doing compared with
China and, and how, how that's how the fruits of these two
different parts are sort of being being born today.
I just want to point out also that even though I've been
called a Chinese China show or CCP show, all those wonderful
terms which don't really matter all that much, I still love
living in South Africa. And I don't know why I would be
labeled these things. If I if I say guys, they are
good and bad things. I think China is incredible.
Let me tell you something. You know, if we sitting a low
bar living on the African continent, it doesn't get much
lower than that. And I would love the past 30
years for us to have imported some of the stuff that that the
Chinese government did with its own country.
How, how it not everything. I'm not a fan of mass
surveillance at all, but they but there is something that they
did right, a bunch of things that did right and a pile of
things that we did wrong. And we still live in a
completely broken system here where their system is
flourishing. So they are good things to to
learn, and they certainly are bad things that you don't want
to learn. Now I think that's a completely
neutral and reasonable approach. I think so.
I mean, I think, I think to take the position that that China is
a fascinating place, but they're not going for it.
That doesn't necessarily mean that you want to live there.
Live there. I, yeah, I, I, I don't think I
do want to live in China. But.
But I think a very interesting point to make is that or an
important point to make, whilst I have no desire to go and live
in China, I do firmly believe that if I did live in China, I
would be treated with respect and I would be treated as in
effect, perhaps rather strange, equal.
Whereas I was talking to a couple of Hong Kongers, Chinese
Hong Kongers last night who are in their 70s with close
connections to sort of the United Kingdom, British society
and what not. And it was very interesting.
One point that was made to me was that they would absolutely
not ever move to the West, but not to the UK, particularly
because they would be treated like in, in their words, 4th
class citizens. And I thought that was, I mean,
I, I didn't disagree with it. I absolutely agreed with it
because this is where this is exactly where people have been
brainwashed, indoctrinated, radicalised, all the rest of it.
But but what an indictment to, you know, and it goes back to
this whole thing of, of where we started the sort of infighting
or backstabbing or whatever it is with the negativity and it
and it's, it's the same, the the loss of respecting one another
is, you know, it's a disgrace. And, and we should be, we should
be learning or relearning from people that still hold that
dear. So I find that a very, very
interesting comment. I.
Mean, but we're only just starting.
Yeah. But but Charles, that's that,
that is the point, isn't it? Because because whatever,
whatever we're experiencing at the column is, is, is indicative
of the types of conversations that are going on right across
British society and Western society as a whole at the
moment. And because there is all this
bickering and infighting and, and hate for each other that
that is part of the, that's part of the collapse that we are
experiencing. I mean, you know, I, I said, I
said on the, on Wednesdays extra, I mentioned the fact
that, you know, people are, no matter what the, what the regime
is, that they're, that they're living under people.
The people that I've met in China are, are optimistic that
they, they enjoy life. And, and you look around, you
look around the cities and you know, Chongqing itself, the
actual city has what, 1012 million people in it and the,
and the region around it as whatever the number is, Charles
thinks 30. It, it, it, it doesn't matter.
The population density is huge within that city.
And, but the streets are clean. There are no potholes in the
roads. The the the the infrastructure
works. And so on now is that because
that this is where they are in their, in their, the cycle of
things at the moment in the sense that, that because that
city has has massively exploded in terms of, of development in
the last 10 to 20 years. Everything's new, everything's
fresh, everything's exciting. And, and maybe that's part of
it. Whereas in the UK, we are coming
to the end of a cycle. And, and so, you know, just just
the, the organization, the money that it would take to fix the
potholes in the road is, is going to be huge.
But we're not going to, we're not going to achieve that with
this constant bickering and infighting, whether that's at
the political level, at the top of society or, or at the, at the
small minded level, at, at the most local, local base.
So somehow we've got to, we've got to take a step back as a
society and, and look around at ourselves and that and look at
ourselves and, and, and work out is this, is this how we really
how we want to live? And that, that is going to be a
difficult thing for us to do. But if we don't do it, we're
only heading and you know, the direction of travel is important
here and we're heading in the wrong direction.
So that has to be changed somehow.
Yeah, it does. I mean, I think the, the
positivity and, and the energy, I mean, I, we were, we were
together. I mean, we said it wasn't
isolated. But my, one of the things that
absolutely stuck out as such a contrast was seeing teams of
workmen, Rd. builders or whatever and they were all
working. And to, to anyone who's involved
in that sort of trade listening, I'm, I'm sorry if this causes
offence, but seriously, find me a team of Rd. workers or
whatever in the United Kingdom where any more than one person
is working at any time, 12 blokes standing around smoking,
one bloke working. That is, that is how it's done.
And, and in China, I mean this, I know this sounds silly, but
honestly, if, if, if you could tell a story about a country
with one anecdote, this would be it.
Every single man, Jack, they, they just got on with it.
And I do believe, for whatever reason, I'm not, I can't explain
the psychology of that. I cannot tell you why that's the
case. But I do definitely believe that
if that's the way stuff worked in the United Kingdom, life
would be very, very different. All right, we are running out of
time. So this week was China, next
week Iran. Yeah, but why not?
Well, there we go. I mean, I'll tell you what, as a
as a as a preview, you know, as much as as much as people get
riled about China, I mean, the other thing, the other thing
that that UK column gets continuously hammered for is,
you know, you, you love Muslims. Yeah.
Well, actually I do. And the reason for that is that
having been to well over 15, largely Muslim, or at least, you
know, countries that are sort of based on some sort of Muslim
heritage, I have never experienced greater hospitality
anywhere in the world. And as an example, an absolutely
brilliant story driving in Uzbekistan.
Sorry, wrong. Kyrgyzstan, absolutely in the
middle of the nowhere with with somebody, I can't remember if he
was a taxi driver or whatnot. The car broke down, right.
Great. OK, sort of getting late.
No one there. So what happened?
The next car that passed us drove us all to the first house
that we came to. The driver of the vehicle, I was
with a friend, the driver took us to the house, said to the
people who owned the house, here you go, they'll stay with you
tonight because I've got to go and fix the car.
He then went back with the person who'd stopped, went off
to wherever, got spares, came back anyway.
So with absolutely no questions asked, two of us were taken into
this house with open arms, fed, provided with a bed.
I mean, absolutely. Can you imagine that happening
in Suffolk? No.
So, you know, so so why, why are we so determined to do the oh,
look over there, they're all bad.
Projection. Nonsense.
Projection. All right, so guys, there we go.
All right, nice chatting. Charles, are you back home next
week? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah. Back to the.
Right, cool man. I'll check you guys as.
Well, yeah, you absolutely are back to the rig.
Yeah, stealing myself for the return.
Yeah, yeah. All right.
Cheers guys. OK, thanks.
Thanks. OK, Bye.
Bye. Bye.