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Hello, I'm Charles Mallett with 
Auk column interview. 

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Today I'm joined by Dr. Ian 
Overton, who is the Executive 

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Director of Action on Armed 
Violence, as well as being an 

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investigative journalist and an 
author in very warm welcome to 

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UK column and thank you very 
much indeed for joining me. 

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Thank you. 
No, it's a It's a pleasure. 

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Good. 
Now, there is an awful lot to 

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try to cover today. 
How much of that will actually 

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get through remains to be seen. 
But just say that the audience 

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have a basis for understanding 
what it is that you're going to 

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be talking about and why. 
Would you just explain a bit 

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about what it is that action on 
on violence does do and how your

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involvement with it started? 
So we basically root civilian 

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harm in conflict zones at the 
epicentre of of what we're 

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interested in. 
And we do that through 

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investigating harm in conflicts 
as well as looking at what 

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what's for a long time I thought
was a sort of a rather sort of 

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tinfoil hatted expression as 
sort of military industrial 

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complex. 
But as the longer I've spent in 

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this space, the more I think 
that actually that actually 

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McCarthy was was writing calling
it that. 

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So we investigate the military 
industrial complex and we do 

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throw through field research. 
So my work has taken me over the

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years to around 25 conflict 
zones around the world of 

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differing levels of harm, as 
well as doing things like 

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Freedom of Information request, 
deep dive analysis into data. 

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And we run a global explosive 
violence data set where we look 

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on a daily basis at civilians 
killed or injured by explosive 

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violence in popular related 
areas. 

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And we cross reference that to 
things like the arms trade and 

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who is profiting from the sale 
of such weapons to to various 

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regimes and and nations. 
OK. 

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Thank you very much for that. 
Now the the pursuit really is to

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try to staunch the flow of in 
particular, if I've understood 

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correctly, civilian casualties. 
I mean statistically I think 

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this, this bears sort of greater
scrutiny. 

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Can you just explain with, with 
particular regard to say 

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explosive ordinance why it's, 
you know, it really is a matter 

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of concern that we think about 
civilian populations who get 

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caught up in these sorts of 
conflicts? 

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So my own background is I was 
ABBC journalist and then a 

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Channel 4 News journalist. 
And then I set up something 

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called the Bureau of 
Investigative Journalism. 

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But around 12 years ago I joined
Action on Violence and at the 

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same time we set up this global 
explosive violence Monitor. 

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And it was quite a revelation 
because up until that point I've

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been to lots of places where 
there were clearly huge sorts of

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impacts of, of conflict on towns
and cities. 

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But we set out to look at all 
English British language media 

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reports of civilians recorded 
injured or killed in these 

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cities, alongside all injuries 
and deaths. 

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And we found out relatively 
quickly that when explosive 

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weapons were used in towns and 
cities, around 90% of people 

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killed or injured were 
civilians, compared to something

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around 20% in lesser populated 
areas such as rural terrain. 

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And I thought in the first 
instance, this might have been 

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an anomaly. 
But year 2 came year three-year 

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4, Year 5, every year for a 
decade, the same basic patterns 

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of harm are very clearly 
evidenced. 

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And over that time, we've 
obviously seen Homs and Aleppo 

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and Mariupol and Gaza unfolding 
where, you know, we're back in 

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the sort of terrain of of 
Hiroshima and Dresden, you know,

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massive deaths of civilians in 
urban areas, often very 

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distanced from the general 
public's mind and concern, 

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although I think Gaza and 
Mariupol have brought it more 

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fiercely into the living room. 
But certainly, you know, a 

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decade ago, nobody talked about 
this phrase explosive weapons in

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populated areas. 
And I wonder if your listeners 

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are familiar now with that 
framing. 

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And I would say that that's come
out of the sort of lobbying work

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and advocacy work that 
organizations like mine have 

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tried to do to to make this a 
concern. 

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And we, we actually got over 80 
states signing a political 

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commitment to avoid the use of 
explosive weapons in populated 

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areas in Ireland a couple of 
years ago. 

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And, and of course, you could 
say that this is, you know, 

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since Ireland a few years ago, 
we've seen the, the devastation 

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of Gaza and the, the continuing 
terrors of Ukraine. 

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But I think at least we're now 
acknowledging that this is a 

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real issue of 21st century 
warfare and civilians, 

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strangely, in a space where 
militaries are often distanced 

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from the fighting because of 
drone warfare and increasingly 

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autonomous systems, the 
civilians are really caught in 

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the in the terror of the mall in
between. 

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And this is a a very different 
relationship to war that we saw 

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potentially, let's say in 1914, 
where soldiers were the primary 

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victims and civilians were often
relatively protected by being 

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further away from the front 
lines. 

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Yes. 
Now, obviously the answer to 

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this question is that it, it 
doesn't matter either way 

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because the important thing is 
that civilians are dying. 

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Clearly that is, that is not 
right. 

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I mean, let's go a step further 
and say that it's not right that

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competence are dying either. 
I mean, nobody really should be 

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dying. 
But from what you've what you've

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researched, are you suggesting, 
and it could be a combination of

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these. 
But he's suggesting that this is

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a change in the nature of 
warfare and therefore that that 

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battles are being fought more 
amongst the civilian population 

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or that civilians are more 
vulnerable because they don't 

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have the the tactical expertise 
or indeed the sort of 

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protections that combatants 
would have. 

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Or is it sort of hybrid of of 
both of those factors? 

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I mean, I think it's a hybrid in
in a way. 

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So obviously in someone like 
Gaza, the civilians can't leave 

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their areas. 
And we've seen many an instance 

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where people are are are hurt in
one location, they become 

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refugees and then they're hurt 
in the second location and even 

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the third location. 
So we've seen multiple assaults 

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on civilians that are moving 
within the space, particularly 

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in Gaza. 
In other places like Ukraine, 

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yes, you saw a massive spike in 
the early days, civilian harm 

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and then a kind of a slow 
levelling off as people began to

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pour it over the border into 
Poland, et cetera, realizing how

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terrible Russian invasion was. 
But I think I, I go to the very 

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heart of the matter and the 
argument that if you look at the

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origin of the rules of war, it 
really sort of began in Cressy 

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or Agincourt where, where 
soldiers and, and there's a 

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reason why chivalry is called 
chivalry, because the Cheval, 

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the, the, the knight on the 
horseback was the sort of 

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archetypal arbiter of faith and 
justice in the battlefield. 

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And chivalry was in, in a way, 
not doing the coup de grace on 

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your enemy, but actually letting
them live. 

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And so over time, I think that 
you saw soldiers actually 

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creating rules of war so that 
they had a fighting chance of 

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survival if they were ever 
captured. 

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It wouldn't all just be 
executions all round. 

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And over time, I mean, even up 
to sort of the middle of the 

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20th century, the rules of war 
were very much discussed by 

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soldiers for soldiers. 
And then overseas saw the, the, 

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the Total War of the 20th 
century emerging into the 

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civilian space and you saw the 
Geneva Conventions coming out of

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that and a whole raft of UN 
deployments and, and, and 

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treaties and various other 
things. 

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But I think a mark of the 21st 
century has been a slow erosion 

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of some of those sort of 
profoundly held beliefs about 

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the protection of civilians. 
We're talking about the rules 

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based order being sacrificed on 
the altar of, of strategic 

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convenience. 
But at the same token, you're 

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also seeing a distancing of a 
lot of soldiers from the 

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battlefield so that that, you 
know, we're seeing people 

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fighting drugs in warfare for 
far, far removed. 

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And I first helped expose a part
of the Bureau of Investigative 

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Journalism, the use of, you 
know, U.S. drone strikes out of 

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the Midwest killing civilians in
Pakistan. 

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You know, can you get even 
further distance from war from 

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that? 
And so my concern is, is as 

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warfare becomes a very different
beast fought by soldiers, and 

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I'm not denying soldiers bravery
and all of this or their their 

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risk to them, but they're, you 
know, war can be a bloodless 

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thing for many an aircrew. 
And you combine that the people 

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who are really suffering at the 
very basis of war are often 

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those civilians caught as as, as
people in the middle of this of 

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this conflict. 
And I think when we also now 

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throw in the mix of AI and 
targeting systems fuelled by 

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artificial intelligence, I think
you're going to see even more 

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people being targeted as 
combatants where merely they're 

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just fighting age male or 
they're in the wrong place at 

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the wrong time. 
Or the AI system feel compelled 

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to add a name because it doesn't
want to say, I think I finished 

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now for the day. 
We don't have to kill anyone 

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else. 
And I think that all of these 

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things are occurring at the same
time, that the rules of war 

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themselves are, are not being 
addressed through a civilian 

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prism. 
And I sit down with a lot of 

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military types and, and, and, 
and speak to them about their 

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rules and processes. 
And understandably, because the 

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world they live in is a military
world, they don't often consider

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civilians at the epicenter of 
what they're doing. 

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Civilians are a secondary or 
even tertiary thought. 

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I don't blame for them for that,
but I do think that that then 

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creates a space for civilians 
like myself who have seen and 

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witnessed war in all of its 
different terrible faces, to 

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actually also be an advocate for
the voice of civilians in the 

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strategic planning and outcome 
of conflicts. 

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Yes. 
And now look there's a there's a

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lot that can follow on from from
the points you've made there and

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and what you've been through. 
I mean, I think I would first of

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all say that you're very 
diplomatic, for want of a better

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word, in suggesting that you 
shouldn't blame members of the 

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armed forces for conducting 
operations that do have a 

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civilian death toll attached to 
them. 

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I mean, I would say that the 
laws of armed conflict are very,

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very clear on this matter and 
that that should be avoided at 

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almost all costs. 
Now, the question that falls out

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of that, therefore, given the 
statistical background and the 

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changes in the nature of warfare
and exactly what you're 

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describing, where there is that 
divorce now from reality, you 

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know, you can sit in a Porter 
cabin somewhere and kill people 

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left and right without even 
hearing anything go bang. 

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There's a huge sort of 
desensitization to the whole 

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process. 
So I guess the question that 

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falls out of it is, is what is 
happening in particularly 

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populated urban areas? 
Is that actually deliberate in 

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so far as it is a deliberate 
attempt to kill civilians in, 

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you know, a sort of a completely
unjust method? 

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So I, I think that it's almost 
unequivocal that Russia and 

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Israel have conducted campaigns 
that through the rules of 

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engagement rule book, if they 
even had one in, in the 1st 

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place out the window. 
So I think certain militaries 

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have absolutely no conscience 
about the the deaths of 

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civilians. 
And I think we've even seen 

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seats in the Knesset's political
rhetoric almost, well, I would 

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say at points of genocidal 
intent and certainly Russia's 

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framing of Ukraine is has been 
devoid of any human rights 

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concern. 
But let's talk about NATO 

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countries. 
So one thing which I was really 

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surprised is I asked the British
RAF for lists of all the 

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civilians killed or injured in 
their op shader, which is their 

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their air flights over Iraq and 
Syria. 

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And they came back and they said
that they had killed or injured 

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4300 Iraqi and Syrian militants,
but that they had only killed 1 

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civilian in the entire space. 
Now, my, my, my, I would put it 

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to the RAF that they have 
therefore either done one of two

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things. 
They've either broken the, the, 

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the, the, the, the nature of 
war. 

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In other words, they've made war
entirely bloodless to civilians,

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which is the first time this has
ever happened in human history. 

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Or that they have wilfully 
ignored the fact that civilians 

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have died, maybe even covered it
up or done a system, a 

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bureaucratic system of casualty 
recording where the default is 

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always is to the assumption of 
guilt as opposed to the 

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assumption of innocence. 
And that this willful failure 

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then then is, is a framing of 
how they believe themselves to 

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be good men conducting of a 
conflict far away. 

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Now, when I go back, I mentioned
I, you know, I don't blame the 

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military. 
So I don't necessarily blame a 

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00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:51,600
corporal who's given a job as a 
drone pilot and that's his his 

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00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:54,440
role to go out and do this. 
I, I, I don't blame him 

230
00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:57,720
exquisitely I, I, I, because I 
think obviously he can make the 

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00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:00,960
choice to, to resign or to, to, 
to hang up his Commission or 

232
00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:03,920
whatever. 
But I, what I do blame are the 

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00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:09,200
more senior individuals who 
maintain this absolute belief in

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that they are working for the 
greater good that they are. 

235
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They have no faults and 
ultimately the war that they are

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fighting is essentially a good 
one. 

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So they, they, they lean into 
uncritically and then if they 

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also within that 
bureaucratization of their own 

239
00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:27,760
violence, enable them to be 
violent against civilians, but 

240
00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:31,640
pass that off as violence 
against militants, then I, I 

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00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:35,080
would say that they probably 
deserve a, a long night of the 

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00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:38,280
soul where they have to sort of 
reconcile that with their own 

243
00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:40,560
conscience. 
And I think we just don't see 

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that exquisitely. 
And let's say drone strikes. 

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We're also seeing that emerging 
with the accusations by special 

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00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:51,120
forces killings in Afghanistan, 
where we're seeing people at 

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senior command level in UK 
special forces saying that there

248
00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:59,120
was a willful cover up by their 
seniors to mean that they 

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00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:02,240
wouldn't properly interrogate 
allegations of civilians being 

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00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:06,880
caught being executed as part of
routine at special forces 

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00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:09,440
operations. 
And I do think that the most 

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00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:13,360
incredible thing is that one of 
the individuals who's been named

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00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:16,720
by the BBC is actively hiding 
evidence. 

254
00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:19,920
Somebody called Hugh Jenkins is 
now First Sea Lord. 

255
00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:23,800
He's, you know, he promoted even
in the face of the BBC saying 

256
00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:28,560
that he hid evidence that 
civilians were killed in special

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00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:31,920
forces OPS. 
So I think that there is real 

258
00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:35,800
questions to be asked about the 
way that the British military 

259
00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:38,040
frame themselves as a force of 
good. 

260
00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:41,400
And this means that they cannot 
ever contemplate that they 

261
00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:44,760
haven't been a force of good. 
And when do you have individuals

262
00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:47,080
like myself come along and I 
expose this? 

263
00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:49,960
One thing I've noticed is that 
initially they were quite 

264
00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:52,800
willing to speak to me. 
And over time, I've become 

265
00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:56,560
persona non grata and I'm not 
allowed to speak to people at 

266
00:14:56,560 --> 00:14:59,480
senior level of the MOD anymore.
And so I think that there 

267
00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:02,720
becomes this sort of defensive 
framing that if you're not with 

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00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:05,280
us, you're against us and 
therefore you have nothing of 

269
00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:07,320
merit to say. 
And there becomes this 

270
00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:11,320
incredible hostility as if I am 
part of the problem rather than 

271
00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:15,080
exposing a problem. 
Yes, that is something we will 

272
00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:17,320
come back to because I 
absolutely want to talk about 

273
00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:20,240
the relationship between the 
military, government, 

274
00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:24,640
corporations and the media. 
But sorry, just clarifies, Gwen 

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00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:26,520
Jenkins actually the the First 
Sea Lord. 

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00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:30,040
Sorry, you said. 
You said you but but anyway, 

277
00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:31,360
Gwen. 
Jenkins exactly. 

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00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:33,680
As you say, and and he was 
director of Special Forces and 

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00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:37,000
we'll come back to that as well.
But just before we do, I think 

280
00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:40,240
something again, you know, when 
we're talking about this, this 

281
00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:44,800
idea that so much is in effect 
hidden from public view because 

282
00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:47,120
unless you've gone into deep 
research and you've actually 

283
00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:51,360
gone to these places as you have
and you've studied it, it, it is

284
00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:54,000
very easy, particularly for 
people in Western Europe to have

285
00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:56,960
really no sense of what is going
on. 

286
00:15:56,960 --> 00:16:00,480
And now we set that against the 
what it is that armed forces are

287
00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:04,160
doing under what they've been 
given as rules of engagement. 

288
00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:06,800
Now, of course, if you look into
that, it's certainly for the, 

289
00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:09,800
for the British Army rules of 
engagement are written down in 

290
00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:14,120
JSP 398 at joint service 
publication and they are an 

291
00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:17,640
expression of political will. 
They're an expression of how to 

292
00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:20,400
how to use force. 
Now, the reason I'm setting that

293
00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:23,000
out because I'd be very 
interested to hear your views 

294
00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:26,840
on, first of all, that in 
itself, because I think a lot of

295
00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:29,600
people in the armed forces are 
not really aware that in actual 

296
00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:32,840
fact, when the rules of 
engagement change, that can be 

297
00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:37,240
for political reasons rather 
than reasons of a change in 

298
00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:40,080
threat or risk on the ground. 
But also in light of the 

299
00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:44,000
comments by the Secretary for 
War, Pete Hagseth in the United 

300
00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:47,160
States, who's basically saying, 
right, well, rules of engagement

301
00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:49,120
thing of the past, crack on, do 
what you like. 

302
00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:53,960
I mean, absolutely, I, I think 
that the, you know, the, the, 

303
00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:57,560
the class fits in framing war as
an extension of politics by the 

304
00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:01,120
means is, is, is very true. 
And I, I think that there's 

305
00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:04,640
this, I wouldn't call it 
naivety, but there's a certain 

306
00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:08,520
reluctance by the British 
military to sort of say, they 

307
00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:10,200
always say we're not political. 
We're not political. 

308
00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:12,920
And there's a virtue, of course,
in that because a politicized 

309
00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:15,800
military, you know, is something
that, you know, you, you, you 

310
00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:19,760
associate, let's say, with a 
Central American Republic in, in

311
00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:21,680
the 1980s. 
You know, you, you've got to be 

312
00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:26,119
wary of that sort of thing. 
But, but I think that, that 

313
00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:30,960
there is a kind of a, a, a wider
political framing. 

314
00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:34,800
So I think that, you know, this 
old idea of the British military

315
00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:38,400
or the British nation, 
essentially post empire is a 

316
00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:41,000
nation seeking to find a role 
for itself. 

317
00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:44,160
And I think the, the, the 
military hasn't really caught up

318
00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:47,280
with that agenda and it still to
some degree wants to be 

319
00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:49,360
Everything Everywhere all at 
once. 

320
00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:52,520
So I came out with a story today
that showed that we, our 

321
00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:56,960
reservists were sent to 51 
countries last year and the year

322
00:17:56,960 --> 00:18:01,280
before, British Army person, you
know, went to 171 countries 

323
00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:04,000
around the world. 
And I think that there is this 

324
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:08,280
desire to constantly find an 
enemy, to have this persistent 

325
00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:11,680
framing that we are the last 
defenders of some bastion of 

326
00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:14,560
civilization. 
And that this means we're always

327
00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:17,920
seeking to sort of find a role 
to be engaged with. 

328
00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:21,800
And when that role is then 
officially granted by the policy

329
00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:25,920
makers that we are allowed to be
in Iraq or Afghanistan and and 

330
00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:30,200
fight a war, then then of course
the the gloves come off. 

331
00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:33,360
And then there's a question, 
well, what are we going to do? 

332
00:18:33,360 --> 00:18:35,960
What's the end goal? 
What are we actually selling? 

333
00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:39,120
Can we sell democracy down the 
barrel of a gun? 

334
00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:41,920
Can we achieve this? 
And one of the things I really 

335
00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:45,560
find striking and and actually 
quite problematic is that 

336
00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:48,720
because the military says we're 
not, we're not, we are, you 

337
00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:51,840
know, we are the fault. 
Let Caesar be unto Caesar and 

338
00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:53,680
then we will do what we have to 
do. 

339
00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:57,240
That that to that degree that 
they they refuse to sort of 

340
00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:00,880
really bring on lessons of the 
past in any meaningful way. 

341
00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:03,280
So if you say, what were the 
lessons of Afghanistan? 

342
00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:06,760
What were the lessons of Iraq? 
These it's like pulling teeth. 

343
00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:10,480
It's a very painful process. 
I went to Basra a couple of 

344
00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:14,000
months ago and I sat down with 
lots of families who had been at

345
00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:17,200
the very hard end of British 
military engagements and 

346
00:19:17,360 --> 00:19:20,520
families had been lost. 
Terrible events had occurred. 

347
00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:22,560
I'm not saying this was 
purposeful. 

348
00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:25,520
I don't think the British 
military aimed machine guns at 

349
00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:27,480
civilians like the Russians 
might do. 

350
00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:30,960
But nonetheless, I think that 
there were terrible outcomes. 

351
00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:34,720
And when of course, we want to 
address this from the British 

352
00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:39,600
military perspective, I think 
that some of the rules of that 

353
00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:42,840
led to those engagements aren't 
particularly looked at. 

354
00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:46,760
You know, we, we, we shut down 
the, the Iraq historical 

355
00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:50,040
allegations team process. 
This entire process of 

356
00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:53,280
investigating these special 
forces in Afghanistan has been 

357
00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:55,720
a, a very slow and expensive 
process. 

358
00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:58,720
Even Northern Ireland has 
revealed nothing of any 

359
00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:01,080
substance about, you know, 30-40
years on. 

360
00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:04,640
And I think that the military's 
desire to learn from its 

361
00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:07,960
failings, which is negligible, 
means that when it comes to the 

362
00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:11,520
next position where it has to 
use rules of engagement in a 

363
00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:15,360
lethal manner, it it doesn't 
sort of go well, we can't behave

364
00:20:15,360 --> 00:20:18,640
in the way we previously did. 
And I think that that failure of

365
00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:22,640
institutional memory to learn 
from its own mistakes means that

366
00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:25,280
to a degree that is a political 
decision. 

367
00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:28,480
And the political decision 
ultimately comes, I think, from 

368
00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:31,960
a fundamental, which is that 
governments, often government 

369
00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:36,040
after government, treats the 
military with a rare 

370
00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:39,600
exceptionalism in British life 
where they're always brave, 

371
00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:44,120
they're always doing exceptional
work, and they're always to be 

372
00:20:44,120 --> 00:20:46,920
praised. 
And that's there's no public 

373
00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:50,640
space in Britain to be anything 
but overtly critical. 

374
00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:52,600
And of course you don't. 
You shouldn't be critical for 

375
00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:55,280
the sake of criticism. 
But when there is valid 

376
00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:58,360
criticism, and I think the 
British military definitely has 

377
00:20:58,360 --> 00:21:01,480
valid criticism, whether it's 
racism or sexism in its rank, 

378
00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:04,320
whether it's claims of 
extradition killings in 

379
00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:07,560
Afghanistan, whether it's 
failing to protect civilians in 

380
00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:11,720
Iraq, whether it's the death of 
individuals in Kenya and and 

381
00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:15,120
allegations of wrongdoing there.
All of these are murky truths 

382
00:21:15,120 --> 00:21:18,080
that are are circulating around 
the British military at the 

383
00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:21,600
moment that but there's a 
reluctance, an institutional 

384
00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:24,480
reluctance. 
And I think that that stems from

385
00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:27,840
a political exceptionalism that 
the military has granted. 

386
00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:31,200
But it's also something rooted 
in the British military's own 

387
00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:35,920
framing of itself as a force of 
good and an an unassailably 

388
00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:38,000
good. 
Which means that, you know, as 

389
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:42,360
you say, Gwen Jenkins gets 
promoted rather than castigated,

390
00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:44,440
even in the face of damning 
evidence. 

391
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,360
Yes, I think, I think what you 
say would be agreed with by a 

392
00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:51,360
lot of former servicemen, myself
included. 

393
00:21:51,360 --> 00:21:55,160
I think that absolutely is the 
perception of what 1 is doing 

394
00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:58,920
and the way that you're told to,
to sort of think about going 

395
00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:02,360
about doing it. 
I think just since you've 

396
00:22:02,360 --> 00:22:06,360
mentioned it, it, it does give 
an insight, you know, on this 

397
00:22:06,360 --> 00:22:08,440
theme. 
The, the report that you've, 

398
00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:11,440
you've just referred to about, 
you know, we described just 

399
00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:14,640
before we started recording 
effectively an exercise in what 

400
00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:16,480
might be described as military 
tourism. 

401
00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:20,000
And really, you know, what 
should we take out of that? 

402
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:24,560
Because clearly the, the, the 
purpose, well, is it, but the 

403
00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:28,120
purpose of an armed force could 
be said to be to deliver lethal 

404
00:22:28,120 --> 00:22:31,760
force, you know, in a place 
where it is required. 

405
00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:34,000
I mean, it's highly questionable
as to whether it is ever 

406
00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:36,440
required. 
So that's perhaps a bit of a red

407
00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:38,480
herring. 
But when you set that alongside 

408
00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:41,160
what you're talking about, I 
mean, what is it that you do 

409
00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:43,480
think about that? 
What, what does that say about 

410
00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:46,240
the way in which our armed 
forces are conducting 

411
00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:49,480
themselves, or indeed having 
money thrown at them to do this,

412
00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:53,080
that and the other? 
So, so this is gonna be quite 

413
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,800
controversial, but John Johnny 
Beale, who's the BB CS defence 

414
00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:00,680
chief, said to me once that the,
one of the biggest controversies

415
00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:03,240
he's ever reported on was the 
number of public school boys who

416
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,520
go to Santa's. 
And, and I'm a former public 

417
00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:09,480
school boy who, who got a 
scholarship to go to Sandhurst. 

418
00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:12,960
And I decided after university 
to join the BBC instead, which 

419
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:16,040
is a different form of corrupt 
institution anyway. 

420
00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:20,000
So, so, so, but one of the 
interesting things is that if 

421
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:23,120
you get an overseas forum 
posting as a, as an army 

422
00:23:23,120 --> 00:23:26,440
officer, as any soldier, but 
essentially obvious, there's 

423
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:29,080
always a chance you're going to 
get, if you have a family, 

424
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:30,840
you'll get a boarding school 
allowance. 

425
00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:33,000
And I was sent to boarding 
school on my father's boarding 

426
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,640
school allowance. 
So there's a natural imperative 

427
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:39,440
as if you're a major to want to 
be sent as a defence attache to 

428
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:41,520
a different country. 
So then you get a boarding 

429
00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:43,400
school allowance. 
And I know somebody who sent who

430
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:47,240
sent 44 sons to Gordonston based
on this premise. 

431
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:50,600
Now I think that that's part of 
I mean, that's one of the 

432
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,000
incentives. 
But I think there's also and and

433
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:55,800
many of us, you know, any of 
your listeners have been to 

434
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:58,880
boarding school or, you know, 
there is this sort of framing of

435
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,640
of the boarding school came out 
of this concept of empire this 

436
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:07,040
yearning to be in a far off 
location, doing daring, do worth

437
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:09,920
worthy things, often through a 
military prism. 

438
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:14,280
And so the military mindset is 
very much always let's seek 

439
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:18,800
what's on the distant horizon. 
The senior personnel of the 

440
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:22,400
military are often ex special 
forces who got granted not just 

441
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:25,240
the excitement of getting sent 
everywhere all the time, but 

442
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:28,480
also in secret in a sort of 
James Bondish way. 

443
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,400
So I think that there's very 
much rooted at the heart of the 

444
00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:35,400
the the British military desire 
to be in another place. 

445
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:38,920
Salisbury Plain is very boring 
if you compare it to doing 

446
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:41,680
manoeuvres in Kenya or Brunei or
Borneo. 

447
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:45,040
But then underpinning all of 
that I think is also this 

448
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,040
Britain wanting to punch above 
its weight. 

449
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:50,320
It's a small nation, an island 
nation. 

450
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:52,760
But you know, we're part of the 
Security Council. 

451
00:24:53,120 --> 00:24:55,680
I think we're, there's this also
implicit understanding that we 

452
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,280
were last invaded in the early 
18th century. 

453
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,560
You know, there's not much 
argument that anyone wants to 

454
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:04,360
invade us with any meaningful 
force at the moment. 

455
00:25:04,360 --> 00:25:07,560
I don't think Putin desperately 
wants to take Edinburgh and 

456
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:11,600
London with the, you know, a 
phalanx of Russian soldiers. 

457
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:15,720
So I guess the question is, is 
what, what is the military for? 

458
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:18,400
And of course it's partly a 
projection of power. 

459
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,680
But then I think we, we're 
entering a real crunch period 

460
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:25,720
where our, our, our global 
ambitions don't really work out 

461
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:29,240
to our budgetary constraints. 
And so I think what you're 

462
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:32,680
seeing is US trying to be 
everywhere, everything all at 

463
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:36,080
once on a Poundland budget. 
And that doesn't work. 

464
00:25:36,360 --> 00:25:39,200
So either you get the ex 
military types who go on the 

465
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:42,520
Today program saying we need a 
lot more money in the face of, 

466
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,920
you know, major cuts throughout 
other parts of the British 

467
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:50,200
governmental supply. 
Or you have a position where we 

468
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:52,480
say actually we need to retract 
a bit. 

469
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:55,640
And I did notice today that the 
MOD said that they're going to 

470
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,680
pull back a little bit from some
foreign deployments. 

471
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,520
But I think there is a 
fundamental tension as to what 

472
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:03,640
Britain is in the post imperial 
age. 

473
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,600
I think that that does aligns 
badly with a recruitment 

474
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,640
challenge that the military have
trying to say, look, join the 

475
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:13,920
military and we'll send you 
peeing in the Alps or, you know,

476
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:17,680
climbing the Himalayas or 
whatever it is, which is 

477
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:19,480
obviously exciting. 
And who wouldn't want to do 

478
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:22,000
that? 
And so I think that there's this

479
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:26,560
tension about what is Britain, 
what is empire mean, you know, 

480
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:30,960
years on after giving giving way
to empire and what does the 

481
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,560
British military have to say? 
But you know, as you know, if 

482
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:37,160
you walk the halls of Santa's, 
the halls of Santas, the full of

483
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:41,400
oil paintings of people doing, 
you know, exciting and heroic 

484
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:45,360
things in, you know, the 
Hindustan or, you know, the 

485
00:26:45,360 --> 00:26:49,280
Hindu Kush or whatever. 
And this is incredibly exciting 

486
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,680
and who, you know, that sort of 
roots itself in a consciousness 

487
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,040
of what we are. 
But I think that they're, you 

488
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,560
know, when you speak to Italians
or French, not necessarily the 

489
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:00,560
French, because they have the 
French Foreign Legion, but the 

490
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:03,840
Germans, the Spanish about their
militaries, they look at us 

491
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:05,600
slightly perplexed and they go, 
you know, why? 

492
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:07,000
Why do you have to be 
everywhere? 

493
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:10,480
And if you ask that question, 
you know, the intriguing thing 

494
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:14,240
is that I, I don't think that 
this is a matter of major public

495
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:17,720
debate in the British sort of 
conversation. 

496
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,640
We almost think, oh, that's just
what the military do and they'll

497
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:23,720
always do that. 
But, you know, when I look back 

498
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:27,960
at our previous imperial 
endeavours and our footprint, 

499
00:27:28,120 --> 00:27:31,480
our military footprint and ask 
the question, were we a force of

500
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:35,480
true good, a much more complex 
question mark rises. 

501
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,600
And so I think we have to be 
persistently vigilant as to what

502
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,520
we're doing and which countries 
and how we're doing it. 

503
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,240
Because, you know, did we do 
good in Iraq? 

504
00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:47,560
Did we do good in Afghanistan? 
And, and also from a, from a 

505
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:51,640
very specific perspective, you 
know, did our former soldiers 

506
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,680
sent to Afghanistan and Iraq, 
how do they manage, you know, 

507
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:59,480
civilian life now knowing what 
they were asked and tasked to 

508
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:01,320
do? 
And I think we need to have 

509
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:04,920
empathy from both perspectives 
is about, you know, not just the

510
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:07,880
empathy and perspective of the 
Iraqi or the Afghan civilians 

511
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:12,120
caught up, you know, in our own 
military endeavors, but also the

512
00:28:12,120 --> 00:28:15,600
legacy of those wars on soldiers
who were sent to places. 

513
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:18,680
And I know at least three 
soldiers who took to have taken 

514
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:21,760
their lives after tours of 
Afghanistan and Iraq. 

515
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:25,120
And, you know, that does come 
with a a moral injury that has 

516
00:28:25,120 --> 00:28:28,160
occurred as a consequence of us 
doing things that we're not 

517
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:31,960
entirely convinced did good. 
Very much so. 

518
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:36,640
Now to go to the point you're 
making about the in effect, the 

519
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,880
background and the sort of 
lifestyle of a lot of the people

520
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:43,800
who do end up becoming big 
decision makers and, and 

521
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,960
relating that to what we are 
seeing, albeit very slowly 

522
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:49,760
through the Afghan inquiry and 
the suggestion that there have 

523
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,760
been extrajudicial clear 
killings made by special forces 

524
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:56,160
over a number of years. 
And again, this is not isolated 

525
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:59,120
to British special forces. 
Of course. 

526
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:01,920
The, the what has been very 
interesting to observe is what's

527
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:04,640
happened in Australia with the 
case of Ben Robert Smith, the 

528
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:12,040
decorated corporal who was found
guilty, or rather sorry he was 

529
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:17,800
pursued A libel case, a civil 
case therefore, and lost because

530
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:22,040
on the balance of probability 
the court decided that he had 

531
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:26,400
committed extrajudicial killings
and yet no criminal trial. 

532
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:28,160
And the same in the United 
Kingdom. 

533
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:33,680
Now, do you think that that what
you've described bears relation 

534
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:38,160
to, in effect, the lack of 
scrutiny really that's gone 

535
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:40,720
into, with the exception of the 
Afghan inquiry, the lack of 

536
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:44,600
scrutiny and indeed the lack of 
any sort of suggestion that 

537
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,920
there might be consequences for 
what may have happened? 

538
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:52,200
I mean, I, I, I, I don't think 
that the inquiry into 

539
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:54,520
Afghanistan will result in a 
singular conviction. 

540
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:59,480
In fact, explicitly any evidence
given to the inquiry does not 

541
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,840
then hold standing in a Criminal
Court, which I don't think 

542
00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:05,520
really has been highlighted 
anywhere of any significance. 

543
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:08,760
And I think that that is an 
incredible thing that you set up

544
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:13,760
an inquiry and by doing so, you 
actually to a degree, render the

545
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:19,040
fundamentals of British criminal
process obsolete. 

546
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:21,880
You know, we've seen it with 
Northern Ireland and the Bloody 

547
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:23,120
Sunday killings. 
We've seen it. 

548
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:25,880
And, and and of course it gets 
reduced into this framing that 

549
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:30,000
somehow this is lawfare. 
These are terrible liberal left 

550
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:34,560
wing lawyers striving to sort of
gut the heart out of our heroic 

551
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:37,560
soldiers. 
And of course, you know, we did 

552
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:42,240
see one or two badly behaved 
lawyers, don't get me wrong. 

553
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:46,080
But simultaneously the, the 
question I would raise is 

554
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:50,840
surely, if you believe in due 
process, the rule of law and the

555
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:56,280
and nature of democracy, that 
inquiring about the overstep of,

556
00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:00,640
of, of the rights of, of, of 
individuals, the, the, the, the,

557
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:04,400
the failure of the rules of war,
the, the deaths of civilians. 

558
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,840
Surely this is part and parcel 
of the package we were 

559
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:11,920
promising, which is democracy. 
So I see myself as a thorn in 

560
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:14,880
the side of the military. 
But because I believe that if we

561
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:17,560
don't have people like me 
interrogating the military the 

562
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:22,200
the military's actions, then the
military has carte blanche to do

563
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,480
whatever it will. 
So I almost see myself as an 

564
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:28,840
ally to the military because 
without people like me, 

565
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:32,320
everything is lost. 
But so, so on a wider 

566
00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:35,720
perspective, I think that the 
impunity that has been enjoyed 

567
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:39,320
by the Americans, the British 
and other forces that we may 

568
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:43,280
have seen begin in home. 
In Fallujah, for instance, we 

569
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:46,960
saw the deaths of lots of 
civilians there. the US got away

570
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:48,920
with it. 
I've teamed up with Julian 

571
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:54,160
Assange to expose the WikiLeaks 
military logs of Iraq. 

572
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:58,120
And we saw war crime after war 
crime being committed and 

573
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:00,880
recorded by the British, by the 
American military. 

574
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:05,160
Not one of those allegations of 
war crimes ever ended up in 

575
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:07,840
court. 
So the Americans laid out in the

576
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:13,240
early 21st century clear case 
for the impunity of the American

577
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:16,040
forces, and the British 
simultaneously sort of got on 

578
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:18,880
board. 
And we had an inquiry, the Iraq 

579
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:22,440
Historical Allegations team, but
that folded with no evidence of 

580
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:26,080
wrongdoing. 
I think that then Russia saw 

581
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:28,320
that impunity acting and they 
thought, well, if you're going 

582
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:31,360
to do it in with Fallujah, we'll
do it in Homs and Aleppo. 

583
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:36,240
That led to no, no outcomes. 
So then you saw it in Mariupol 

584
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:38,200
and then now we're seeing it in 
Gaza. 

585
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:44,200
So I would say that the impunity
enjoyed by Netanyahu is rooted 

586
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:49,000
in the very claims of democracy 
that we sold to the world 

587
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,800
through armed conflict in the 
early 21st century that we 

588
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:57,520
didn't then support with due 
legal process of holding our own

589
00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:00,080
to account. 
So I, I think this is part of a 

590
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:04,280
much bigger play of actually, 
what do we mean by civilization?

591
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:06,520
What do we mean by the, the rule
of law? 

592
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:10,360
What do we mean by justice? 
And so I, I, I don't, I mean, 

593
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:13,600
I'm, I'm a tiny actor in all of 
this, but I do. 

594
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:17,280
That is a philosophy that spurs 
me on, that I believe myself to 

595
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:21,360
be a defender of facts and a 
defender of truth in an age when

596
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:25,800
so much is contested. 
Yeah, no, there's, you know, 

597
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:28,600
there's a lot of important 
substance there. 

598
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:32,720
Now you use the phrase holding 
to account and I think this is 

599
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:36,000
really where we want to go. 
You I think I'm right with the 

600
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:41,680
BBC from 97 to 2005. 
And obviously that period is 

601
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:45,520
effectively exactly when the the
so-called War on Terror was, was

602
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:49,000
basically being wound up with 
the then, well, I suppose Afghan

603
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:51,960
deployment 2001 and then Iraq 
2003. 

604
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:56,080
And this is, I don't mean this 
to be necessarily Bob, question 

605
00:33:56,080 --> 00:34:01,120
about your time at the BBC, but 
but from the perspective of an 

606
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:04,760
insider, do you believe that 
during that period the BBC was 

607
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:08,199
doing what it is supposed to do 
and holding the government to 

608
00:34:08,199 --> 00:34:11,560
account? 
So it's very interesting. 

609
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:14,440
I, I was just talking to 
somebody at the BBC the other 

610
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:16,639
day about this. 
I, I was in the BBC newsroom 

611
00:34:16,639 --> 00:34:19,199
when we saw the second plane hit
the Twin Towers. 

612
00:34:19,199 --> 00:34:22,040
And in that moment, we knew our 
entire lives had changed. 

613
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:26,120
I'm looking back on my role at 
the BBC. 

614
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:29,080
So I, I went on embeds with the 
British military. 

615
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:34,120
I was in Iraq during the, the, 
the descent into chaos in Basra.

616
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:36,560
I was embedded with the British 
military there. 

617
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:40,000
And I think I did all of that 
relatively uncritically. 

618
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:43,639
I, I was, you know, we, we felt 
that there was a major shift 

619
00:34:43,639 --> 00:34:45,960
that occurred. 
I think a lot of people got on 

620
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:48,800
board with, you know, I'm, I 
mean, we didn't quite go as far 

621
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:52,320
as US correspondents turning up 
with a rifle and a gun in our 

622
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:54,199
hands and saying we were on 
board. 

623
00:34:54,199 --> 00:34:57,240
But I think there was a lack of 
critical review. 

624
00:34:57,720 --> 00:35:01,960
And I remember when I was at 
Channel 4, we, there was a very 

625
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:05,800
good journalist there called 
John Sparks who began to look, 

626
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:10,520
he was a Canadian and he began 
to look at extra renditions, 

627
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:13,440
renditional flights. 
And I remember thinking that 

628
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:14,880
that's an interesting 
perspective. 

629
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:17,680
Why would you look at that? 
And he began to find more and 

630
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:19,480
more stuff. 
And I think it took a Canadian 

631
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:23,560
actually to sort of, you know, 
breakthrough the patriotism that

632
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:25,280
we all get can get affected 
with. 

633
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:28,800
And then a few years later, 
after I left the BBC, after I 

634
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:31,520
left Channel 4, I set up the 
Bureau of Investigative 

635
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:35,320
Journalism. 
And then this incredible, a 

636
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:38,000
reporter called Chris Woods came
to me and said, I think we 

637
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:42,080
should begin to look at U.S. 
drone strikes in Pakistan. 

638
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:45,240
And we began to look at this. 
And to be honest, this was my 

639
00:35:45,240 --> 00:35:49,560
first time and this was 2012, 
that I began to look at the War 

640
00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:52,000
on Terror with any profound 
critical eye. 

641
00:35:52,240 --> 00:35:54,320
I'd been looking at a whole 
bunch of other things. 

642
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:58,120
And it took a while for me to 
actually have the veil taken off

643
00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:00,080
my eyes. 
And there was an absolute crunch

644
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:05,600
point that came was when the we 
were going to give our story of 

645
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:10,400
over 30 children and civilians 
killed by U.S. drone strikes in 

646
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,400
Pakistan to a major 
International Paper. 

647
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:17,080
I'm not going to say which one 
it was, but they they were going

648
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:21,040
to run that front page. 
They then called me the day 

649
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,720
before and they said the CIA 
basically said that you're not 

650
00:36:23,720 --> 00:36:25,480
trustworthy, we shouldn't work 
with you. 

651
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:28,520
You work with Julian Assange, 
don't work with you. 

652
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:32,120
So we're not running the story. 
And then I, the story ran with 

653
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:36,200
the Guardian the next day. 
So it came out anyway, a few 

654
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:39,160
months later that major 
International Paper got an 

655
00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:42,360
exclusive from the CIA that they
would own. 

656
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:43,960
And I think that there was a 
deal made. 

657
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:46,360
I can't prove it, but there was 
something very whiffy. 

658
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:49,040
And I when I raised that with 
the editor of this paper, he 

659
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:52,480
started screaming at me in a way
that was far too emotional when 

660
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:56,160
you gauge it as to the sort of, 
you know, the, the question 

661
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:58,680
asked did not merit the response
given. 

662
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:03,320
Anyway, my point is this is that
I think it takes a great deal to

663
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:08,000
be a journalist who is able not 
to be sucked in to patriotic 

664
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:11,520
endeavour or even nationalistic 
endeavour, if you will. 

665
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:15,840
And I think it's taken me a long
time to actually realize that 

666
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:18,480
the best patriot is the critical
patriot. 

667
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:21,720
Somebody who can actually look 
at the intersection between the 

668
00:37:21,720 --> 00:37:25,400
media, the politics, the 
military industrial complex in 

669
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:29,440
such a way that actually you say
the truth will liberate us and 

670
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:32,800
the truth is the ultimate thing 
that we should seek out. 

671
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:38,080
And so I wouldn't say that there
was a coherent editorial ploy at

672
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:42,080
the BBC not to hold government 
to account, but I think that 

673
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:46,840
becomes institutional blindness,
that actually there are certain 

674
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:51,040
things that just remain beyond 
the Ken. 

675
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:54,520
And often it's outsiders in the 
BBC, people who don't 

676
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:58,520
necessarily come from a certain 
group who can offer that. 

677
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:03,720
And I would raise my hat to 
Hannah O'Grady, who's been the 

678
00:38:03,720 --> 00:38:08,520
BBC producer behind the expose. 
They ended up blowing the lid on

679
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:11,440
the special forces allegations 
of killings in Afghanistan. 

680
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:16,120
So there are some exceptional 
people who do hold society to 

681
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:19,240
account. 
But equally speaking, I have 

682
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:24,200
numerous on numerous occasions 
gone to the BBC, gone to major 

683
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:27,600
news publications with stories 
that I truly believe are 

684
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:30,320
revelatory. 
Let's say so for instance, I 

685
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:34,400
expose there have been over 600 
spy plane flights by the British

686
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:37,360
over Gaza during the Gaza 
conflict. 

687
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:41,680
The BBC wouldn't touch that. 
And I think that there is a, a 

688
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:46,560
kind of a, a failure for the BBC
to consider themselves sometimes

689
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:50,480
as being the people who should 
investigate the military. 

690
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:53,360
And I'm not saying that I'm not 
criticizing individuals for 

691
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:54,800
that. 
I think that that come becomes a

692
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:57,800
culture where they're caught 
between not wanting seem to seem

693
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:01,240
as if they're unpatriotic, but 
at the same time not realizing 

694
00:39:01,240 --> 00:39:05,240
that sometimes it's unpatriotic 
to hold the the the the the 

695
00:39:05,240 --> 00:39:06,720
government of the day to 
account. 

696
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:09,680
OK. 
I mean, you know, your 

697
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:14,560
perspective on this, albeit sort
of almost 20 years ago is, is, 

698
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:17,480
is fascinating. 
And I think I just want to draw 

699
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:18,800
this out a little further 
because obviously you're 

700
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:22,520
describing your own position as 
being one of not using what 

701
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:25,360
you're describing as a critical 
eye at that period. 

702
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:27,960
But obviously now in retrospect,
you see that things differently.

703
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:33,920
Again, in retrospect, were you, 
were you sort of alongside 

704
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:36,560
people who you think were using 
a critical eye? 

705
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:42,120
Or was there a sort of, in a 
way, a blanket sort of effect on

706
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:44,840
people at that period? 
Because it was, you know, 

707
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:47,440
similar to what we've seen over 
the last five years in in some 

708
00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:52,480
ways, that there was such an 
assault on the public about how 

709
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:55,520
dangerous things were here and 
that was all related to what was

710
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:56,880
going on in the Middle East and 
all the rest of it. 

711
00:39:56,880 --> 00:40:00,920
Did you do you think there were 
people there who genuinely could

712
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:03,160
see what was going on or or or 
not? 

713
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:08,280
I think there were occasionally 
some people and they often, as I

714
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:11,880
said, they may have come from an
Irish background or a Canadian 

715
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:14,680
background, or they were often 
weren't sort of invested in the 

716
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:16,240
Britishness. 
So there was that. 

717
00:40:16,240 --> 00:40:17,880
There was also, I think 
something else that was 

718
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:20,800
occurring at the time, which was
very unusual, is that we 

719
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:24,160
suddenly found ourselves as as 
white journalists to be 

720
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:29,040
potentially liable to violence. 
So when I was in Basra, for 

721
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:32,600
instance, I remember going up to
the, I was with the, the British

722
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:36,320
military on an in bed and I, 
there was huge violence 

723
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:39,160
occurring in the streets of 
Basra and the British Army were 

724
00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:41,760
under terrible attack. 
And I was like, I want to leave 

725
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:45,960
the front gates here and go out 
and report on what the civilians

726
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:48,840
out there are fighting. 
What why they're so upset with 

727
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:51,080
us, given we're a liberating 
army. 

728
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:54,640
And the Colonel of the time 
said, by all means you're free 

729
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:58,360
to go, but if you get caught in 
trouble, I'm not risking a man 

730
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:01,760
to come and save you. 
And it, it gave me a real pause 

731
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:05,000
for thought because I thought, 
you know, I could easily become 

732
00:41:05,240 --> 00:41:08,840
somebody who is hanging off a 
bridge, burnt alive, because I 

733
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:12,200
am the first white person who's 
unarmed or diverse, you know, 

734
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:15,200
British person unarmed that 
they'll find and they can do 

735
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:17,880
harm to. 
And of course, we saw that with 

736
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:19,520
ISIS. 
I mean, I wrote a book about 

737
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:23,360
suicide bombers and I met lots 
of, you know, would be suicide 

738
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:25,400
bombers. 
And there was always a lurking 

739
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:28,520
fear that one of them might just
decide to take me with them on 

740
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:31,520
their journey to paradise and 
blow themselves up while I was 

741
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:34,080
interviewing them. 
So, you know, I, I, throughout 

742
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:37,800
the last 20 years, I have had to
navigate this space that has 

743
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:42,080
existed where the, the, the, 
the, the media have become seen 

744
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:45,240
by particularly some Salafist 
jihadists as part of the 

745
00:41:45,240 --> 00:41:46,720
problem. 
And of course, of course, 

746
00:41:46,720 --> 00:41:49,080
certainly there are media 
institutions that have been part

747
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:51,400
of the problem. 
We have some, some people are 

748
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:56,600
are unquestionably uncritical. 
My wider comment of the British 

749
00:41:56,600 --> 00:42:01,280
media in general is that it 
tries to occupy the space of 

750
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:05,240
patriotism. 
It, it doesn't like to criticize

751
00:42:05,240 --> 00:42:08,960
the military in anything that 
unless it's absolutely clear 

752
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:12,040
dry, and it certainly is 
reluctant to contemplate the 

753
00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:15,920
military industrial complex in 
the sort of more philosophical 

754
00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:19,920
way. 
So I think that it requires in 

755
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:22,680
a, in a strange sense, I mean, I
come from a military family. 

756
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:24,760
So I've understand how the 
military works. 

757
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:27,320
And, you know, I, I was very, 
very close to joining the 

758
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:30,000
military myself and I spent 
years in that sort of cadet 

759
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:32,120
space. 
So I kind of understand the 

760
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:35,200
military reasonably well. 
And I think that that those two 

761
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:38,600
things that give me a relative 
understanding of the, the nature

762
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:41,200
of the military. 
I also know that there are lots 

763
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:45,480
of people in the military or 
veterans who are very similar 

764
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:47,640
minded to me. 
So, you know, I know that they 

765
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:50,560
they are more than capable of 
having quite critical 

766
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:52,440
perspectives on the military as 
well. 

767
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:57,560
And I think that there is this 
sort of lack of understanding to

768
00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:01,880
some degree by the British press
as to actually how the military 

769
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:04,880
operates and what they, what 
they see themselves as in some 

770
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:08,200
ways. 
And within that space, there's 

771
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:12,080
I, I, I know there are certain 
names that the British military 

772
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:17,160
veterans who keep on being 
sighted in the British military,

773
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:20,800
who are often exceptional 
voices, not universal voices. 

774
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:24,880
And those names are often right,
quite right wing, quite pro 

775
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:28,280
military, often more asking for 
more defense spending. 

776
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:32,680
And, and I, I, you know, people 
like, you know, Colonel Kemp, 

777
00:43:32,720 --> 00:43:36,160
for instance, keeps on being put
out there as a kind of a, a 

778
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:39,960
spokesperson, even though he 
left over a decade ago for the 

779
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:42,200
military. 
And I think that the British 

780
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:48,560
press, including the BBC, has a 
kind of a failure to be truly 

781
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:53,160
critical of of most institutions
up until the point that those 

782
00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:57,080
institutions become so corrupt 
that you can't do anything but 

783
00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:59,960
expose them. 
Yeah, OK. 

784
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:02,040
I mean, it is, it is 
fascinating. 

785
00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:04,400
It's very interesting to hear 
you say that, that the BBC in 

786
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:08,040
effect won't touch stuff, 
notwithstanding your previous 

787
00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:09,600
involvement with the 
organization. 

788
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:12,680
And that in itself is, is 
fascinating, especially in light

789
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:15,720
of what, you know, Tim Davey 
falling very slowly on his sword

790
00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:21,280
after the January the 6th sort 
of editing issue and what not 

791
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:25,240
now, just just in terms of sort 
of what drives what. 

792
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:29,840
You spoke at the Oxford Union 
some years ago and you you 

793
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:34,080
talked about the, the lack of 
influence that media has due to 

794
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:36,200
the fact that there's no, I 
mean, it's just part of the same

795
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:37,600
cycle. 
But you know, people aren't 

796
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:42,360
investing in news sources in the
way that they once were. 

797
00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:48,840
And yes, we do still have this 
perpetual state of conflict. 

798
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:52,680
And as the saying goes, all wars
are bankers wars. 

799
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:55,680
Now. 
What is your take on that And 

800
00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:59,960
and and in effect, what does 
drive Watt in so far as the 

801
00:44:59,960 --> 00:45:01,960
result being conflict is 
concerned? 

802
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:09,880
Well, so for for instance, we we
sent 170 Watt to 100 troops to 

803
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:16,800
171 countries the year before 
last, and of those countries, 19

804
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:20,800
of them appeared on the UK 
government's own list of human 

805
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:25,920
rights concerns. 8 of them 
experienced since 2020 a 

806
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:29,520
military coup. 
We've trained up soldiers from 

807
00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:32,760
African countries that then have
gone back to militaries that 

808
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:35,160
then undertake coups in their 
own country. 

809
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:42,040
We embed organizations like BA 
Systems at the very heart of our

810
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:44,720
notion of what is good for the 
British economy. 

811
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:50,000
And BA Systems sell to Israel. 
They also sell to Saudi Arabia, 

812
00:45:50,240 --> 00:45:53,560
both of which have been involved
in terrible violations against 

813
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:56,800
human rights, particularly the 
the dropping of bombs in in 

814
00:45:56,800 --> 00:46:00,480
towns and cities. 
And so I think you've got this 

815
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:06,040
military industrial Nexus where 
to some degree our military, we 

816
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:08,400
have defense attaches all over 
the world. 

817
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:12,240
And those defense attaches are 
to some degree tasked with being

818
00:46:12,240 --> 00:46:15,360
cheerleaders for Britains 
military exports, our defense 

819
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:17,760
exports. 
We also have an entire 

820
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:22,240
community, as you know well, of 
ex soldiers who then go into the

821
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:26,400
security industry and then they 
end up being deployed in paid 

822
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:29,680
roles in countries all over the 
world, particularly our special 

823
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:31,800
forces. 
That's very lucrative for them. 

824
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:37,040
And so I think you've got this 
very close relationship between 

825
00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:40,680
the military, the military 
industrial complex and then 

826
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:44,200
human rights abuses that 
invariably come from that. 

827
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:47,880
One thing that really struck me 
for instance, is I looked at the

828
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:53,280
share price increases of BA 
Systems post October the 7th and

829
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:56,160
their shares went up remarkably 
high. 

830
00:46:56,560 --> 00:47:00,200
And the the chief executive of 
BA Systems ended up selling 

831
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:03,240
£3,000,000 worth of shares, 
which would have been a 

832
00:47:03,240 --> 00:47:06,960
£1,000,000 less before October 
the 7th. 

833
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:10,360
I asked the press office about 
this and they they said that one

834
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:13,520
of the reasons for this is he 
wanted to purchase a flat. 

835
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:16,560
And it turned out, I think that 
he had bought a london-based 

836
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:18,640
flat potentially for his kids, I
don't know. 

837
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:23,200
But anyway, this flat was 
essentially born out of the 

838
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:25,680
profits made from sales to 
Israel. 

839
00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:29,600
And that really strikes me that 
about the nature of goodness in 

840
00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:32,320
society. 
And CS Lewis once wrote a very 

841
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:36,520
interesting commentary. 
He said he didn't see hell as 

842
00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:39,920
being a concentration camp or a 
torture chamber. 

843
00:47:40,160 --> 00:47:43,400
He saw that as an outcome of 
hell that was a product of hell.

844
00:47:43,720 --> 00:47:48,520
Rather, he said that hell to him
were offices where men with low 

845
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:51,480
voices and clean fingernails in 
well lit rooms. 

846
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:57,400
Past resolutions agreed minutes 
and issued memorandums. 

847
00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:01,920
And to me the I see hell in the 
same regard, that the hell is a 

848
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:06,040
place which is far devoid from 
war, but actually is the profit 

849
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:09,000
center and the profit Nexus of 
how that is and it. 

850
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:13,280
This could be anything from 
former special forces chiefs 

851
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:18,520
having a polite dinner in the 
Athenaeum all the way through to

852
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:22,680
a quiet closed board meeting of 
BA Systems agreeing on the next 

853
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:24,800
tranche of weapon sales to 
Israel. 

854
00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:28,760
And these, this is the military 
industrial complex, large and to

855
00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:32,800
me that this space is occupied 
often by former public school 

856
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:37,200
boys, it's often occupied by 
people who, you know, understand

857
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:39,480
the mechanisms and architectures
of power. 

858
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:43,640
And it was also occupied by 
individuals who absolutely 

859
00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:48,960
detest true scrutiny. 
And these people simultaneously 

860
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:53,240
wine and dine and, and sit in 
the same media space as other 

861
00:48:53,240 --> 00:48:57,520
people who dictate what is to be
in the papers and not in the 

862
00:48:57,520 --> 00:48:59,160
papers. 
And I'm not saying there's a 

863
00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:03,520
grand conspiracy here, but I 
think there's an architecture of

864
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:08,720
silence around certain issues 
that we don't like to call out 

865
00:49:08,720 --> 00:49:13,840
the, that the hell of London 
and, and the, these, these 

866
00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:17,680
creatures that inhabit this sort
of world of, of the military 

867
00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:20,840
industrial complex, We don't 
call them out for their actions.

868
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:24,440
And also within there, there's 
this profound distance of cause 

869
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:26,720
and effect. 
So, you know, the, the, the 

870
00:49:26,720 --> 00:49:29,720
profiteering in the military 
industrial complex of Britain 

871
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:35,680
becomes more, becomes easier to 
consume and to live alongside 

872
00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:38,480
because we are not witness to 
its consequences. 

873
00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:43,960
We, we don't feel the bombed 
outs homes of Yemen or of Gaza. 

874
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:45,840
We, we don't witness them close 
up. 

875
00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:50,920
So to me, one of the profound 
roles I believe I play, and I 

876
00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:55,000
think maybe you play as well, is
to try and remind readers and 

877
00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:59,440
listeners that there is an 
outcome to these, you know, 

878
00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:03,720
these, these these processes 
that the architecture of the 

879
00:50:03,720 --> 00:50:08,520
military industrial complex has 
very real consequence to the 

880
00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:11,520
lives of others. 
And I think that's really by 

881
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:15,840
travelling to the places of harm
and coming back to record it and

882
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:20,000
then aligning that harm with the
profiteering made within the UK 

883
00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:25,280
offers hopefully a kind of a 
bridge of empathy to say, is it 

884
00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:28,760
right that we do this and is 
there a better way of doing it? 

885
00:50:29,760 --> 00:50:31,160
Yes. 
And I mean, Speaking of 

886
00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:33,720
consequences, I think a story 
that well articulates this, 

887
00:50:33,720 --> 00:50:36,040
which you've written about 
yourself, is the relationship 

888
00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:39,240
between Christopher Harborne and
Reform UK. 

889
00:50:39,240 --> 00:50:42,160
Of course, he's the major 
shareholder of the defense 

890
00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:45,000
company Kinetic, which has made 
an awful lot of money from the 

891
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:48,520
British government by supplying 
arms and weapon systems that 

892
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:50,960
have definitely been used in 
Israel. 

893
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:54,520
And we've now got a situation 
where he is funding a political 

894
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:58,880
party that may yet assume or 
form a government within this 

895
00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:04,040
country, which will further prop
up the business that he is the 

896
00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:05,840
major shareholder in. 
I mean it, it is an 

897
00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:10,200
extraordinary circle. 
And of course, we've now had the

898
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:13,520
the Strategic Defense Review 
published this year alongside 

899
00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:16,480
the National Security Strategy, 
both of which are predicated, 

900
00:51:16,720 --> 00:51:19,440
despite what you're saying about
Putin not having designs on 

901
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:23,560
Edinburgh or London, predicated 
on the threat of, you know, some

902
00:51:23,560 --> 00:51:28,880
sort of action from Russia. 
So the, the defense dividend, as

903
00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:32,720
it's called, is, is absolutely 
there for all to see. 

904
00:51:32,720 --> 00:51:34,880
And I mean, you know, it's not 
just BAE who are doing well out 

905
00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:35,960
of it. 
You look across the board, 

906
00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:38,440
they're all, you know, 
everyone's share price has sort 

907
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:42,520
of shot up in that period. 
And so it looks like with that 

908
00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:46,560
being the case, there is 
absolutely a necessity for that 

909
00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:50,640
war in order to make it work. 
Now, what's your view on that 

910
00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:53,640
with regard to, you know, you've
referred to the sort of 

911
00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:57,240
recruiting difficulties is, you 
know, trying to sell people 

912
00:51:57,240 --> 00:52:00,080
skiing holidays and, and what is
increasingly difficult in an 

913
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:02,800
army that may not be strapped 
for cash, but certainly doesn't 

914
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:05,200
have the money that it used to 
or indeed the personnel and the 

915
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:08,440
flexibility within the system. 
And yet there are sort of 

916
00:52:08,440 --> 00:52:10,000
whispers of conscription and 
whatnot. 

917
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:12,920
Do I mean, do you see that there
is going to be an active push 

918
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:17,800
for engagement in a in a kinetic
conflict for, you know, with the

919
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:22,760
United Kingdom involved? 
I mean, so, so first on the 

920
00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:25,160
kinetic thing, which I think is,
is absolutely intriguing. 

921
00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:27,760
And that kinetic would not 
survive if it wasn't for the 

922
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:31,480
British taxpayer. 
So I think 92% of his income is 

923
00:52:31,480 --> 00:52:34,240
reliant on the MOD. 
And as you say, then there's 

924
00:52:34,240 --> 00:52:37,400
this strange and weird 
circumstance where it then flows

925
00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:42,360
back into the pockets of Reform 
UK, which, you know, by all 

926
00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:46,520
accounts, if you read Umberto 
echoes framing of what 

927
00:52:46,520 --> 00:52:51,000
constitutes air fascism. 
I think that, you know, Reform 

928
00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:54,120
UK suddenly ticks lots of the 
boxes of something that could be

929
00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:57,320
a precursor to a fascistic 
political framing. 

930
00:52:57,320 --> 00:53:01,640
So I have great concern about 
that with regard to the general 

931
00:53:01,640 --> 00:53:04,840
military industrial complex. 
You know, just as a gentleman is

932
00:53:04,840 --> 00:53:08,320
in need of a Good Wife, an army 
is in need of a good war. 

933
00:53:08,720 --> 00:53:12,800
And I think that if you don't 
then raise the spectre of, of 

934
00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:17,240
Russia or China. 
I mean Tom Tug and hat his his, 

935
00:53:17,240 --> 00:53:20,120
the thing that keeps him up at 
night is the threat of China. 

936
00:53:21,640 --> 00:53:24,000
Russia is obviously a more 
existential threat. 

937
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:27,000
And I'm not trying to diminish 
I've been to Ukraine 7 times. 

938
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:30,000
So I'm not trying to diminish 
the fact that, that, that 

939
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:34,680
Ukraine has been absolutely 
devastated by Russian imperial 

940
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:37,960
endeavour. 
But simultaneously, when you 

941
00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:43,200
look at the linguistic map of, 
of Ukraine, certainly Russia was

942
00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:45,640
a major feature there. 
I mean, I, you know, there's not

943
00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:47,720
many people in, in Britain who 
speak Russian. 

944
00:53:47,720 --> 00:53:54,880
I, I have yet to see any 
tangible appetite by Putin to, 

945
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:59,120
you know, to, to, to want to 
take the threat exquisitely into

946
00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:01,760
the NATO space. 
Now, certainly there, there the,

947
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:03,960
you know, there's certainly in 
the hands of jostling that's 

948
00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:07,040
occurring along the border 
flyovers and all the rest. 

949
00:54:07,360 --> 00:54:09,840
But what I found very 
interesting is that, you know, 

950
00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:14,320
I, I went, I, I did a Freedom of
Information request six years 

951
00:54:14,320 --> 00:54:16,320
ago. 
I think it was asking how many 

952
00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:20,440
times RAF jets have been 
scrambled to address a Russian 

953
00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:22,520
threat. 
And I think it was, you know, 

954
00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:25,400
every month, for instance. 
And I took this to the BBC and I

955
00:54:25,400 --> 00:54:28,080
said, you should report on this.
And they were like, no, it's not

956
00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:30,680
for us. 
But intriguingly, Fast forward 

957
00:54:30,680 --> 00:54:33,600
six years, that story, if I came
out with it now, would probably 

958
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:37,520
lead every single paper. 
In other words, newspapers don't

959
00:54:37,520 --> 00:54:39,840
accept that. 
You know, there isn't a historic

960
00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:42,800
background to this. 
I'll give you another example. 

961
00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:50,240
Boris Johnson gave absolutely £0
to Ukraine in his first year of 

962
00:54:50,240 --> 00:54:54,280
premiership when, when prime as 
Prime Minister, his first year, 

963
00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:57,000
he gave 0 lbs of aid to Ukraine 
at all. 

964
00:54:57,200 --> 00:55:00,560
So this notion, this rhetoric we
are sort of always standing with

965
00:55:00,560 --> 00:55:05,800
Ukraine didn't occur even after 
Don Bass and Luhansk had been 

966
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:08,480
effectively taken over by pro 
Russian forces. 

967
00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:10,400
We didn't give them any money at
all. 

968
00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:14,720
So, so I I would say that there 
is always a danger of a 

969
00:55:14,720 --> 00:55:19,440
constructed enemy and a 
constructed sense of urgency. 

970
00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:24,280
And I've charted the times where
defence chiefs have come out 

971
00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:27,360
saying that there's an 
existential national threat to 

972
00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:30,520
our way of life. 
At the same time the budgets are

973
00:55:30,520 --> 00:55:34,920
under debate and they rise and 
fall in almost perfect sync. 

974
00:55:35,080 --> 00:55:38,800
So three months before any 
budgetary sign off is granted by

975
00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:42,880
#11 you get a defence chief 
coming out or a former defence 

976
00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:45,960
chief saying that Britain is 
under threat like never before. 

977
00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:49,320
And so I, I can't, I, you can't 
divest. 

978
00:55:49,320 --> 00:55:51,480
And one of the interesting 
things is I think there are only

979
00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:56,240
two people in British cultural 
life in the media who are asked 

980
00:55:56,240 --> 00:56:00,400
for their opinion in the face 
of, of an economic reality. 

981
00:56:01,120 --> 00:56:04,560
So estate agents are always 
asking whether house prices will

982
00:56:04,560 --> 00:56:06,680
rise or fail. 
And of course, estate agents is 

983
00:56:06,680 --> 00:56:09,160
always going to say it's going 
to rise because no estate agent 

984
00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:12,080
wants to be out of a job. 
And the second person is always 

985
00:56:12,080 --> 00:56:14,240
a defense chief. 
You always ask ex military 

986
00:56:14,240 --> 00:56:17,480
whether we need security. 
And you know, there are very few

987
00:56:17,640 --> 00:56:20,160
former generals who are 
pacifists. 

988
00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:23,320
So most generals will go. 
Of course, we need more money. 

989
00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:25,880
We always need more money. 
But actually, if you look at 

990
00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:30,000
where the UK is in terms of 
defense spend, we're only second

991
00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:33,280
behind Germany. 
But in terms of per capita, 

992
00:56:33,280 --> 00:56:36,440
we're way ahead of Germany. 
So we are the biggest defense 

993
00:56:36,440 --> 00:56:39,480
spenders apart from the US in 
NATO. 

994
00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:44,720
We, you know, and, and one of my
questions ultimately is, yes, 

995
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:48,160
maybe we do need to lean into 
defence spending if that's what 

996
00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:51,240
the general rhetoric is. 
But then I have to say, well, 

997
00:56:51,240 --> 00:56:54,920
what, what are we defending? 
Are we defending our interests 

998
00:56:54,920 --> 00:57:00,320
in Borneo or Brunei or Dar es 
Salaam or Kenya or wherever the 

999
00:57:00,320 --> 00:57:02,360
hell we are because we seem to 
be everywhere? 

1000
00:57:02,680 --> 00:57:06,800
Or are we actually saying our 
primary interest is this 

1001
00:57:06,800 --> 00:57:09,360
sceptred Isle? 
I mean, we are, you know, 

1002
00:57:09,360 --> 00:57:12,640
granted one of the greatest, 
greatest opportunities that we 

1003
00:57:12,640 --> 00:57:14,520
have, you know, an island 
nation. 

1004
00:57:14,520 --> 00:57:17,440
We it'd be pretty damn hard to 
invade us. 

1005
00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:21,760
And if we were invaded, I'm not 
entirely sure what mineral 

1006
00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:25,680
resources people would be able 
to claim as Putin is claiming in

1007
00:57:25,680 --> 00:57:28,400
the Donbas. 
So there's a question of why 

1008
00:57:28,400 --> 00:57:30,720
would we be invaded? 
What would be the benefit? 

1009
00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:34,000
What would be the outcome? 
And none of this is ever 

1010
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:35,880
discussed. 
And the only other thing that 

1011
00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:38,280
just to, I'm sure you've got a 
question, but the next thing I'd

1012
00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:42,040
finally I'd say is that whenever
we, we discuss about the defence

1013
00:57:42,040 --> 00:57:44,600
of the realm, we never, ever 
bring up the fact that we have 

1014
00:57:44,600 --> 00:57:47,520
nuclear weapons. 
So obviously if we were invaded,

1015
00:57:47,640 --> 00:57:50,880
we, we could just respond with a
nuclear attack, which obviously 

1016
00:57:50,880 --> 00:57:54,240
would be terrible. 
But you know, the, the, the idea

1017
00:57:54,240 --> 00:57:58,080
that we have nuclear weapons is 
never really articulated in the 

1018
00:57:58,080 --> 00:58:03,040
media nor in the defence review 
as being a primary defence of 

1019
00:58:03,040 --> 00:58:05,600
our nation. 
So the impulse is always that we

1020
00:58:05,600 --> 00:58:09,360
need more and more and more, and
that the enemy is always at the 

1021
00:58:09,360 --> 00:58:12,160
gates. 
Yes, it is, although actually it

1022
00:58:12,160 --> 00:58:15,320
is interesting to note how many 
references there are to nuclear 

1023
00:58:15,360 --> 00:58:17,840
in the strategic defense review 
this year. 

1024
00:58:17,840 --> 00:58:22,520
But it but in a in a sort of 
more limited sense as though you

1025
00:58:22,520 --> 00:58:25,240
know, there are there, there is 
such a thing as a tactical 

1026
00:58:25,320 --> 00:58:27,400
nuclear capability. 
I mean, I think there's much 

1027
00:58:27,400 --> 00:58:29,560
debate to be had on that. 
Going back to. 

1028
00:58:29,560 --> 00:58:32,000
What you were saying about, you 
know, the targeting of militants

1029
00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:34,440
at the same time as apparently 
not killing single or at least 

1030
00:58:34,440 --> 00:58:37,080
only killing one civilian. 
I mean, it just, it makes 

1031
00:58:37,080 --> 00:58:41,480
absolutely no sense. 
Now we are sort of short ish on 

1032
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:44,160
time now, but one thing I did 
just want to put to you and I 

1033
00:58:44,160 --> 00:58:47,240
don't want to sort of, you know,
bring the tone down as it were. 

1034
00:58:47,240 --> 00:58:51,200
But but bearing in mind your, 
you know, your concern and your 

1035
00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:55,720
objective with regard to action 
on on violence. 

1036
00:58:56,240 --> 00:58:59,200
I just put the words I, I, I'm 
pray seeing because I can't 

1037
00:58:59,200 --> 00:59:01,920
remember exactly what he said. 
But Karen Prendergast, who was 

1038
00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:04,960
Under Secretary general 
political affairs at United 

1039
00:59:04,960 --> 00:59:07,720
Nations some time ago, was 
interviewed for a documentary 

1040
00:59:07,720 --> 00:59:12,680
about Sudan a while back. 
And he was very, very candid in 

1041
00:59:12,680 --> 00:59:17,640
saying that, you know, plenary 
bodies like the United Nations 

1042
00:59:18,080 --> 00:59:21,680
will be full of people who do 
say, we must do something about 

1043
00:59:21,680 --> 00:59:23,400
it. 
We will do something about it. 

1044
00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:27,400
You know, we are going to stop 
XY and Z, but they don't mean 

1045
00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:30,000
it. 
And you spoke at the at the 

1046
00:59:30,000 --> 00:59:34,600
outset about getting 80 nations 
to sign up to, you know, making 

1047
00:59:34,680 --> 00:59:36,960
a commitment. 
And I, I don't mean to be 

1048
00:59:37,240 --> 00:59:42,040
cynical exactly, but but I mean,
where do you see the, the sort 

1049
00:59:42,040 --> 00:59:47,880
of divide between people 
committing either in writing or 

1050
00:59:47,880 --> 00:59:51,840
verbally and, and actually doing
something about it? 

1051
00:59:51,840 --> 00:59:55,720
And and is are we on a, you 
know, a sort of sliding scale if

1052
00:59:55,720 --> 00:59:58,240
things getting worse or better 
in that guard? 

1053
00:59:59,360 --> 01:00:03,080
I mean, I, I, I, I, I don't 
think it's a downer at all. 

1054
01:00:03,080 --> 01:00:06,840
And I mean anyone worth their 
salt is having an existential, 

1055
01:00:07,520 --> 01:00:11,280
you know, contemplation about 
the nature of the international 

1056
01:00:11,280 --> 01:00:14,880
rules based order as they stand.
I certainly think that. 

1057
01:00:16,440 --> 01:00:19,320
The creation of things like the 
Geneva Conventions have 

1058
01:00:19,320 --> 01:00:23,200
certainly saved lives, I think. 
I think that people, you know, 

1059
01:00:23,200 --> 01:00:27,160
particularly in the fog of war 
and the chaos of conflict, need 

1060
01:00:27,160 --> 01:00:30,560
rules to fall back on because 
then you have to be reminded as 

1061
01:00:30,560 --> 01:00:34,600
to what you're fighting for. 
I think that one of the reasons 

1062
01:00:34,600 --> 01:00:37,680
why I'm an investigative 
journalist in this space is it 

1063
01:00:37,680 --> 01:00:40,440
seeks to align statement with 
deed. 

1064
01:00:41,720 --> 01:00:44,920
And you know, a lot of my life 
is spent saying, well, you 

1065
01:00:44,920 --> 01:00:48,040
signed up to this and then the 
realities you're doing this. 

1066
01:00:48,280 --> 01:00:51,560
So the UK government says there 
are 30 countries out there that 

1067
01:00:51,560 --> 01:00:55,880
are human rights of concern and 
yet we're, we're sending arms to

1068
01:00:55,920 --> 01:00:59,120
22 of them. 
You know, and to me that is OK. 

1069
01:00:59,120 --> 01:01:03,080
I'm going to use your statement 
of goodness and intent and I'm 

1070
01:01:03,080 --> 01:01:06,120
going to hold you up to the 
reality of what you actually do.

1071
01:01:06,720 --> 01:01:12,480
Now, does that have an impact? 
I, I can only say that I know 

1072
01:01:12,480 --> 01:01:15,760
I've been part of maybe some of 
the investigations that led to 

1073
01:01:15,760 --> 01:01:20,240
the inquiry into SAS killings in
Afghanistan or allegations 

1074
01:01:20,240 --> 01:01:23,160
thereof. 
I've been part, I was involved 

1075
01:01:23,160 --> 01:01:25,720
in the WikiLeaks. 
I was involved in the early days

1076
01:01:25,720 --> 01:01:29,240
of exposing the US drone strikes
killed civilians. 

1077
01:01:30,160 --> 01:01:34,680
I, I think I've created a, a 
small body of work that might 

1078
01:01:34,680 --> 01:01:40,720
have at the very least added 
some weight of truth to combat 

1079
01:01:40,720 --> 01:01:44,960
claims and rhetorical statements
that are made in these halls of 

1080
01:01:44,960 --> 01:01:48,840
power. 
And so, you know, does that hold

1081
01:01:48,840 --> 01:01:51,920
an effect? 
I mean, I think one has to be be

1082
01:01:51,920 --> 01:01:56,400
modest in ones ambitions and 
honest in ones impacts. 

1083
01:01:56,400 --> 01:02:00,040
And I'm probably, you know, in 
the great, in the great scheme 

1084
01:02:00,040 --> 01:02:04,440
of things, I hope I will be able
to die one day old and in my 

1085
01:02:04,440 --> 01:02:07,440
dotage, but knowing that I did 
no harm. 

1086
01:02:07,760 --> 01:02:11,080
And I, I hope that that is the, 
the, the, the, the journey 

1087
01:02:11,080 --> 01:02:13,440
through life. 
But I cannot say that there are 

1088
01:02:13,440 --> 01:02:16,240
probably many people who will 
die who will look back on their 

1089
01:02:16,240 --> 01:02:19,520
life and wonder whether they did
inadvertently do harm or lie 

1090
01:02:19,800 --> 01:02:24,440
for, for in, in their ambitions 
to either put themselves at the 

1091
01:02:24,440 --> 01:02:28,520
forefront or through a misplaced
national nationalistic 

1092
01:02:28,520 --> 01:02:32,280
ambitions. 
And so, I mean, do I think that 

1093
01:02:32,280 --> 01:02:35,280
the job that you and I have, 
which is trying to hold truth to

1094
01:02:35,280 --> 01:02:40,760
power is important unbelievably.
And I, I often contemplate 

1095
01:02:40,760 --> 01:02:44,120
democracy as being a very 
fragile bird that you have to 

1096
01:02:44,120 --> 01:02:46,920
nurture and tend. 
And if we wasn't for that 

1097
01:02:46,920 --> 01:02:51,040
nurturing and tending, which it 
requires truth and transparency 

1098
01:02:51,040 --> 01:02:54,440
and eternal inquiry, then, you 
know, we would be in a much 

1099
01:02:54,440 --> 01:02:56,640
darker place than we find 
ourselves now. 

1100
01:02:56,960 --> 01:03:00,040
So I know I, I often contemplate
and I've been to plenty of 

1101
01:03:00,040 --> 01:03:03,200
places where there is absolute 
restriction on journalistic 

1102
01:03:03,400 --> 01:03:06,920
activity around the world and 
those places are far darker than

1103
01:03:06,920 --> 01:03:11,040
Britain. 
So my, my pessimism, which 

1104
01:03:11,120 --> 01:03:14,080
aligns with some of the the 
implications, though that the 

1105
01:03:14,080 --> 01:03:18,240
implicit statements in your 
question, my, my pessimism is 

1106
01:03:18,240 --> 01:03:22,680
always, I think, buoyed up by an
optimism that ultimately truth, 

1107
01:03:22,960 --> 01:03:27,000
goodness and fairness rooted in 
empathy prevails. 

1108
01:03:28,120 --> 01:03:31,600
In Overton, that is a very good 
place with which to draw to a 

1109
01:03:31,600 --> 01:03:33,640
close. 
But before I let you go, will 

1110
01:03:33,640 --> 01:03:37,840
you please tell us where we can 
find more about what you're 

1111
01:03:37,840 --> 01:03:41,960
doing and indeed any sort of 
social media sites that you use 

1112
01:03:41,960 --> 01:03:45,840
and so forth? 
So please come to that website 

1113
01:03:45,840 --> 01:03:50,280
whichisaoav.org.uk you can 
subscribe to our newsletters on 

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that and everything is retweeted
on Blue Sky and on X on AOAV or 

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my own name, Ian with two eyes 
Overton. 

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Super. 
And that will be in the notes 

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that accompany this interview. 
That's been a fascinating 

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insight to a slice of what it is
you've been doing over the last 

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several decades and perhaps 
we'll reconvene in future. 

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But Ian Everton, thank you very 
much indeed for joining me with 

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UK column. 
Thank you.