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None. 
Charles, a few days ago, you and

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I were chatting and you were 
telling me about this music 

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festival that you were at and 
how it seemed like nothing 

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really has changed in terms of 
the people that go there from, 

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let's say, 20 years ago. 
And The funny thing is, I can 

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relate because I remember in the
late 90s, early 2000s going to 

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music festivals. 
Today, they're largely dead for 

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for whatever reason. 
But when I have been in recent 

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times, the kinds of people seem 
to be precisely the same. 

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Yeah, well, I dare say that is 
the situation across the 

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festival spectrum. 
I mean, specifically, we have 

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recently returned from the Hope 
Freedom Festival and, and that's

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the distinction to make, I think
between what would be regarded 

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or what would label itself as a 
music festival versus what we 

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were at, which is specifically 
calling itself a freedom 

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festival. 
But the conversation that you 

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and I had earlier in the week 
was the sort of overlap between 

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the two. 
The, as far as I've seen so far,

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the what are called freedom 
festivals in the UK. 

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You seem to use a similar 
template from sort of smaller 

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scale conventional music 
festivals. 

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And I just, I just find it 
interesting. 

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I just thought it'd be a good 
talking point because on the one

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hand, let's say, you know, 
within the Freedom Festival set 

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up, you, if you're going to go 
to that, if you're going to 

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participate either as a 
performer, so you could be a 

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musician or you could have a 
stall there. 

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Or you could do what we did, 
which was go and talk in the, in

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the talk tent and, you know, 
have your audience, you, you 

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know, that the people who've 
turned up the festival are by 

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and large going to be interested
in the same subjects as you. 

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They want to be listening to 
your sorts of presentations. 

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But in a, in a way that's just 
they probably agree with the 

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line that's going to be taken. 
So that there's that feeling of 

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security within the environment,
both on on the side of the 

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performer or, or stall holder, 
but also that critically, the 

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people that actually go there, 
they, you know, you know, we 

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always talk about sort of being 
around like minded people and 

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all that kind of thing. 
The same is is by and large 

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probably still the case for say 
just a music festival of say 

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sort of small to medium sized 
people are, you know, maybe 

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ideologically on on similar 
ground. 

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I mean, I am guessing slightly 
here. 

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I'm out of touch to an extent 
with that side of it, but I 

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think it was for me, for me, 
it's just interesting that there

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is there absolutely is overlap 
between the way these things run

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and and I suppose the question 
is, first of all, in a way, why 

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is that? 
There are there are other ways 

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of, of making events work and 
drawing people in, but also what

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do we think about the fact that 
by and large, the the people 

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that do go to say freedom 
festivals? 

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Because I think that's a bit 
that we want to concentrate on 

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our broad. 
Freedom. 

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Well, yeah, yeah, the the same, 
the same sort of people. 

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And it's just that it's that 
sort of two sides of the same 

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coin. 
But but by by creating that kind

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of environment, which means that
you know, it's going to be 

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really, really fantastic, really
friendly because everybody is 

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sharing to a certain extent some
sort of belief structure that's 

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great. 
But at the same time, what it, 

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what it means is that there's a,
there's a great deal of self 

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limiting because the message, 
such as it is, doesn't actually 

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ever get out beyond those 
confines. 

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And I just find that a sort of 
interesting almost paradox 

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really. 
And, and it was just, it was 

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something that I, that I just 
mentioned as a thought when we 

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spoke earlier in the week, which
is not to, I'm not in any way. 

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This is not to say, you know, 
the freedom festivals got it all

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wrong or music festivals got it 
all wrong or anything's 

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necessarily got it all wrong. 
But it's just, it's just kind of

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interesting the idea that with 
say, freedom in mind and 

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therefore wanting to change what
we regard as a as a restrictive 

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status quo, that in actual fact,
the ability to do that within 

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this environment is really 
compromised or actually that 

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there isn't any ability to do 
that. 

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So what happens afterwards? 
You know, what do people go away

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and do? 
And going back to what you were 

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saying, you know, the people say
for the last couple of decades, 

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can one plot a course that that 
intersects with these sorts of 

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events and see that they have 
been points along the way at 

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which people have been 
galvanised into action? 

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Or do we run the risk of sort of
meeting up and, and realising 

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that actually not a huge amount 
has changed? 

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I don't, I don't know what, what
do you what do you think? 

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I'll just jump in here if I can.
My observation on this, Jeremy, 

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is that the the numbers at the 2
the freedom festivals that we 

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went to this year, which sounds 
beautiful, and the Hope Freedom 

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Festival were significantly 
lower this year than than last 

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year. 
So even among the community that

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would be the natural audience 
for that type of event, there's 

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been and particularly bearing in
mind that that this has been a 

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spectacular from a, a sort of 
events point of view, this has 

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been a spectacularly good summer
in the UK. 

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It's that still didn't get 
people out to go to go to these 

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things. 
So that there's, there's 

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something going on within the 
freedom community at the moment,

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which is moving them away from, 
from attending these types of 

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events. 
I think that there are what 

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might be described as mainstream
festivals around the place that 

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that offer opportunities and 
Charles, you're going to have to

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help me out the the festival. 
That was the week before the 

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Hope Festival and held in Exeter
in June. 

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Well, I'm I'm now confused 
because I thought you said it 

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was beautiful sounds but. 
It's yeah, that's that's 

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completely wrong. 
So, yeah, so sorry. 

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I've I've forgotten, I've 
forgotten the name of it off the

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top of my head. 
And they, although it is a 

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mainstream event, relatively 
speaking, they had had a rebel 

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tent which was quite a bit away 
from the. 

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Beautiful days. 
Beautiful days. 

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Thank you. 
Yes, beautiful days. 

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And it was beautiful something. 
So they had they had a rebel 

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tent, what they called the rebel
tent, which is and they have 

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that every year, which was, 
which is quite a way from the, 

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the sort of music stages and on 
the top of the hill. 

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And it was actually quite well 
attended this year. 

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And Patrick Hennigson was there 
along with a guy called Tim 

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Norman and Craig Murray to talk 
about the so called alleged 

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Novichok poisonings, the scribal
affair in Salisbury. 

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And, and this was a absolutely 
mainstream audience that had not

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come into contact with this type
of information before. 

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And the, the response was 
generally very good. 

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So, so you know, this again, I 
think comes down to, you know, 

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it's been a theme of the 
conversations we've had since we

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began these discussions. 
Is it it comes down to to our 

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willingness to to engage with 
each other on one hand, but also

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to engage with people that don't
sort of sit in comfortably in 

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the same kind of ideological 
space. 

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And you know, in in this case, 
Patrick and Craig and and Tim 

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did go into that environment to 
to pass on that message. 

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But equally it would have been 
it would be good if if if you 

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know people that are consider 
themselves to be in the freedom 

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space in inverted commas 
attended some other events just 

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as members of the public and 
started talking to other people 

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and and sort of cross pollinated
ideas. 

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You said that there's something 
going on in the freedom 

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movement. 
That right there is what I want 

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to think about for a second. 
Yeah. 

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Because I I do wonder what is 
going on. 

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If this festival had occurred, 
let's say three years ago, let's

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say four years ago, 2021 maybe, 
I think the attendance of 

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something like that would have 
been way greater. 

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I yeah, that that's absolutely 
true. 

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I think there's, there's 
actually quite a demoralisation 

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within what might be categorised
as the so called freedom 

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movement in the last, 
particularly in the last two 

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years. 
But, and in the last year. 

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And a theme that that I'm 
hearing often from people now is

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I have switched off from the 
news completely or from current 

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affairs completely or from 
anything that's going on. 

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I can't handle it. 
And, and this is, this is to a 

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certain extent a dangerous state
of affairs because good people 

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therefore are not engaged in 
events and in trying to resist 

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events. 
Although perhaps you could argue

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that that completely removing 
yourself from the situation is, 

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is some form of resistance. 
But you know, the truth is you 

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can't remove yourself from any 
situation because the 

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situation's there, no matter 
whether you're engaged with it 

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or not. 
And, and so, you know, if, if, 

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if, if things have got to the 
stage where individuals aren't 

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able to handle events and 
therefore they're trying to 

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withdraw, well, unfortunately 
that that isn't actually going 

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to work at the, in the at the 
end of the day. 

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So, so I think that's part of it
is, is certainly a rejection of 

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everything at the moment. 
And and that's, I don't really 

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know what the, what the answer 
to that is or what the scale of 

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it is, but, but that seems to be
part of the story. 

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What, what else is going on? 
I'm not really sure. 

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I think it's very hard to know, 
isn't it because we certainly 

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00:11:18,680 --> 00:11:22,160
from AUK column perspective, 
because of the way in which we 

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00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:25,400
conduct our business or our 
relationship with the 

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membership, with the viewership,
with the public and and what is 

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00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:32,680
going on. 
We are of course only able to 

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00:11:32,680 --> 00:11:34,200
deal with the information that 
we do have. 

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So when people do appear to 
withdraw or they do not maintain

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contact either with us or with 
any of the things you're talking

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about, we can infer certain 
things from that. 

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But ultimately we have 
absolutely no idea what it means

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that those people are doing. 
And when we go back to the idea 

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that we were talking about, I 
think it was last week in 

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relation to getting organised, 
you know, organising oneself, 

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organising 1's community. 
If if people are putting all of 

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00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:05,520
that to one side because they 
have after a certain period of 

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time, got the information that 
they think they require in order

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to make the changes that they 
want to make to their life. 

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00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:15,120
And that then becomes the focus.
And therefore that necessarily 

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00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:18,120
means switching off all the 
other things that might be 

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considered either a distraction 
or, you know, sort of not 

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necessarily expedient to what 
they're doing. 

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And I can understand that. 
The thing is, we have no way of 

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00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:29,920
proving demonstrating that that 
that is the case. 

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00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:32,640
I mean, I would, I would remain 
hopeful that it is. 

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00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:37,040
And that for the sake of 
argument, let's say that that 

194
00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:42,200
that people are dedicating 
themselves to forming more 

195
00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:45,640
relevant and stronger sort of 
community ties. 

196
00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:52,160
That they are pursuing ways in 
which that they can source their

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00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:54,800
own food that they're putting 
effort into, You know, if 

198
00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:57,640
they've got children into sort 
of considering how to educate in

199
00:12:57,640 --> 00:12:59,880
a different way, you know, all 
those kinds of things. 

200
00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:05,560
And I think if you if you are 
doing that, that is really that 

201
00:13:05,560 --> 00:13:08,360
that is a very, very involved 
process. 

202
00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:11,080
And I can see exactly why that 
would mean people would first of

203
00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:14,680
all switch off. 
And also, if they had, I mean, I

204
00:13:14,680 --> 00:13:17,120
am putting a positive spin on 
this, but if they had previously

205
00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:20,560
attended what we describe as 
freedom festivals and found that

206
00:13:20,560 --> 00:13:22,840
that kind of engagement with 
people there had been really 

207
00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:26,400
inspiring and had LED them to go
off and do what they do. 

208
00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:29,600
I can see that they would step 
back and feel that there was no 

209
00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:32,920
need necessarily to go back and 
and sort of revisit that same 

210
00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:35,640
environment until such point 
that they felt they were 

211
00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:38,080
completely on top of it. 
And they'd go back in to say, 

212
00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:40,880
you know, yeah, it's all working
and whatever. 

213
00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:43,520
I mean, I don't know. 
But but going back, you know, 

214
00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:46,040
because you cited Jeremy just 
you just said 2021. 

215
00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:50,840
And The thing is at the moment, 
yes, of course, I mean, UK 

216
00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:54,160
column has been going for as 
good as 20 years now. 

217
00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:58,680
So yes, people are at many, many
different stages along the way. 

218
00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:02,200
But I think there's still no, it
doesn't matter where people 

219
00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:04,160
began. 
I think there's no getting away 

220
00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:09,120
from the fact that the seismic 
change in 2020 in particular has

221
00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:14,960
absolutely shocked people's sort
of life systems in a way that 

222
00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:20,480
nothing previously did. 
Because the any of the things 

223
00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:23,080
that people had been engaged 
with prior to that didn't 

224
00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:25,280
actually have to affect the way 
they live their lives. 

225
00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:27,560
Whereas 2020 bang didn't really 
matter. 

226
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Where you were in the world, in 
some way, the way that you 

227
00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:34,200
wanted to live was affected. 
That means that to a degree, 

228
00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:39,720
we're all on the same, we're all
sort of marching to the same 

229
00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:44,160
time in a sense. 
And I wonder if that has 

230
00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:47,280
something to do with it. 
Whether the first couple of 

231
00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:50,920
years were sort of startled, A 
startled period of information 

232
00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:54,640
gathering or as we have 
identified people thinking, 

233
00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:56,400
yeah, this is absolutely 
terrible. 

234
00:14:56,640 --> 00:14:59,920
And then by the end of whenever 
it was the end of 2022, when 

235
00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:04,080
it's sort of run out of path 
deliberately, it was 

236
00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:07,240
deliberately deflated so that 
people didn't have anything to 

237
00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:10,040
rail against. 
A lot of people, of course, just

238
00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:12,880
thought, well, OK, that that's 
that's done now. 

239
00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:16,200
I'll just go back to my normal 
life as it was before. 

240
00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:18,960
You know, I avoided being 
incarcerated. 

241
00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:23,440
I avoided being injected with 
something possibly deadly. 

242
00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:26,040
And and that's that. 
So. 

243
00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:30,840
So I wonder whether to an extent
we are seeing just an expression

244
00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:35,640
of the passing of time that 
happens to have some people in 

245
00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:39,360
similar places along that along 
that sort of progression, I 

246
00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:43,800
don't know. 
Yeah, I mean, Celia Father was 

247
00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:49,680
on my show a few nights ago and 
she said that the I hate the 

248
00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:56,240
term controlled opposition, but 
that tends to also be a thing. 

249
00:15:56,240 --> 00:16:01,960
Whenever something big like 
COVID occurs or similar, you 

250
00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:07,040
will find an infiltration into, 
shall we say, the opposing side 

251
00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:13,440
to make it either completely 
demoralised or broken or just 

252
00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:19,320
full of infighting. 
And so the official position 

253
00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:22,280
holds. 
And I think she's right. 

254
00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:25,760
And I wonder if some of this has
been happening because it 

255
00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:29,560
doesn't matter what you, you're 
shaking your head there, Mike. 

256
00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:32,240
No, no, I'm just going to say 
it's not a question of wonder. 

257
00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:36,280
It's absolutely demonstrable. 
And and it's particularly, I 

258
00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:38,520
mean it's much worse than the 
last couple of years. 

259
00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:45,200
But I think the, the 
organisation that I've cited in 

260
00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:49,760
the past is the Institute for 
Strategic Dialogue, who have, 

261
00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:53,760
who claim to have something 
around 50,000 influencers on 

262
00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:57,120
their books, right? 
We, we are this, this, I 

263
00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:02,560
suspect, is a very big part of 
the reason people are tuning out

264
00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:04,640
at the moment. 
And I'm, I'm not quite as 

265
00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:07,960
optimistic as Charles about 
perhaps about, about whether 

266
00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:12,200
people are tuning out because 
they're busy doing other other 

267
00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:14,680
making other changes, positive 
changes in their lives. 

268
00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:17,720
I think a, a, a, a lot of it is 
to do with exactly this. 

269
00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:25,000
It's, it's because as Patrick 
said this on, on during our, I 

270
00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:29,200
think it was during extra on 
Mondays, extra when we were 

271
00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:33,360
recording at the, at the 
festival that World War 3 has 

272
00:17:33,360 --> 00:17:37,120
already begun. 
And, and of course it's begun as

273
00:17:37,120 --> 00:17:40,840
an information war primarily as 
far as we're concerned, there's 

274
00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:43,800
other kinetic wars going on in 
other parts of the world, but as

275
00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:46,760
far as we're concerned, it's an 
information war at the moment 

276
00:17:47,360 --> 00:17:51,160
and everything is effectively 
being weaponized. 

277
00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:55,800
So, so we have YouTube, a 
platform which as we all know 

278
00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:59,560
was originally set up to allow 
ordinary people the opportunity 

279
00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:03,920
to talk about ordinary things. 
And as that has developed, it 

280
00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:06,480
has become more and more 
professional and inverted 

281
00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:09,360
commas. 
And particularly in the last 

282
00:18:09,360 --> 00:18:13,880
couple of years, we're seeing so
called influencers being 

283
00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:18,600
employed by Ng OS, like the 
Institute for Strategic 

284
00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:23,720
Dialogue, but also directly from
central government to, to pump 

285
00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:29,720
out narratives on one hand, to 
disrupt conversations in the, in

286
00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:33,240
the comments sections on, on the
other hand, to just bring as 

287
00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:40,680
much chaos as possible into the 
conversation in, in one, you 

288
00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:44,400
know, one of the, one of the 
goals of this is undoubtedly to 

289
00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:49,920
demoralise and 'cause people to 
walk away from what's going on 

290
00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:53,920
and, and, and stop being active 
in this. 

291
00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:56,720
So, so, you know, I don't, I 
don't think it's, I don't think 

292
00:18:56,720 --> 00:18:59,560
it's, there's no doubt that this
is going on. 

293
00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:02,120
It's absolutely verifiable and, 
and demonstrable. 

294
00:19:02,120 --> 00:19:04,600
It's not a question. 
There's no question around it at

295
00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:05,720
all. 
That was why I was shaking my 

296
00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:08,440
head. 
Yeah, I mean, I've seen exactly 

297
00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:11,840
that. 
If, if, if I have any luck, Lucy

298
00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:13,560
here, right? 
She was on my show and she'll 

299
00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:16,720
she'll have an incredible 
conversation with me and at some

300
00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:18,880
point she'll talk about the 
virus. 

301
00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:22,000
Now suddenly you'll see comments
going, viruses don't exist. 

302
00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:23,440
I stopped listening when she 
said that. 

303
00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:26,560
OK, so now what? 
I mean, they've completely 

304
00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:30,400
missed the entire, the entire 
conversation, Mike. 

305
00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:33,480
Oh, look, look, this is this is 
something, this is something 

306
00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:36,760
that really winds me up. 
I really despise this, this 

307
00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:39,360
attitude. 
I mean, there's not much that I 

308
00:19:39,360 --> 00:19:43,080
really hate in the world, but 
but the attitude that because 

309
00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:46,320
somebody has said one thing that
I disagree with that I'm that 

310
00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:48,120
I'm going to tune out of 
everything they say. 

311
00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:51,760
This is this is just wrong. 
Also, you know, we've just 

312
00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:55,520
talked about the the fact and it
is a fact that there are people 

313
00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:59,200
being paid and employed to, to 
push certain narratives and 

314
00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:01,400
whatnot. 
But the fact of the matter is, 

315
00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:05,720
and I realised how hard it is to
sort of make these judgments. 

316
00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:10,480
But we should not be by default 
saying that because somebody 

317
00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:13,160
says one thing, that they're a 
limited hangout or that there's 

318
00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:14,640
some kind of controlled 
opposition. 

319
00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:18,680
We should be listening to what 
people are saying and we should 

320
00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:21,040
be rejecting the things we 
disagree with, but we should 

321
00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:23,040
actually be considering the 
things. 

322
00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:26,920
But we shouldn't just reject 
anything out of hand either, by 

323
00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:28,560
the way. 
We should actually consider it, 

324
00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:32,240
and I've said this before on in 
these discussions, we should be 

325
00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:40,160
challenging our own positions on
our own ideology as just as 

326
00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:42,800
strongly as we're challenging 
anybody else's. 

327
00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:47,280
That's how we, that is how we 
come to a conclusion about 

328
00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:51,240
what's going on in the world. 
It it's not just about rejecting

329
00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:53,960
everything that somebody says 
because of one point that I 

330
00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:57,320
disagree with at this moment in 
time, because next week or next 

331
00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:00,240
month or next year, actually, my
opinion may have changed. 

332
00:21:01,360 --> 00:21:03,280
I mean, it drives me up the wall
too, Mike. 

333
00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:07,080
Like a guest. 
We'll talk about something being

334
00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:08,480
global and then there's a 
comment. 

335
00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:11,840
Earth is flat. 
I mean, it's just insane. 

336
00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:16,240
And I see this all the time and 
it it's something that, that it 

337
00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:18,440
just makes you want to just 
block them, like because they're

338
00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:20,520
not adding any value. 
It's just destructive. 

339
00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:21,760
It doesn't, it's not 
constructive. 

340
00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:25,000
It doesn't help any type of 
critical thinking at all. 

341
00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:27,320
Well, well, that's, that's 
absolutely right. 

342
00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:30,400
You, you throw a comment in 
there like that and it is not 

343
00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:35,400
constructive, It's not helping. 
I, I, I completely agree. 

344
00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:39,320
I would love to see every 
comment that's posted in our 

345
00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:44,240
chat box or in in the comments 
under any of the content that we

346
00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:48,800
provide to be considered rather 
than just throwing out these, 

347
00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:55,520
these sort of tropes. 
And and yeah, well, I think you 

348
00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:59,120
should jump in at this point. 
People really won't want to hear

349
00:21:59,120 --> 00:22:04,440
is that I regard that quality if
we call it a quality of 

350
00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:09,480
immediately saying, oh, well, 
I'm that's it that they've 

351
00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:13,080
they've done it for me because 
they said that one thing or they

352
00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:15,120
didn't say that one thing or 
whichever way it is. 

353
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:19,680
And therefore there is a default
response to condition yourself 

354
00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:22,560
totally against them. 
That's the BBC for you. 

355
00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:26,800
That is what the BBC has done to
people and look at it the other 

356
00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:32,000
way around. 
Try try inserting mild 

357
00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,640
anthropogenic climate change 
scepticism into a conversation 

358
00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:40,920
about anything else and see how 
see see how that's you. 

359
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:43,120
Deny that, Charles, your climate
change denier. 

360
00:22:43,120 --> 00:22:45,720
Yeah, exactly. 
So, so all the things that the 

361
00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:49,120
BBC chucks out, whether it, you 
know, whether it's to do Andrew 

362
00:22:49,120 --> 00:22:52,800
Tate or something on gender or 
whatever, it's it's just the 

363
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,040
other side of that exactly that 
same coin. 

364
00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:58,320
I'm afraid that that is this is 
precisely what the in 

365
00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:01,000
particular, most obviously the 
the British government. 

366
00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:03,880
I mean, this is not exclusive to
the United Kingdom, of course, 

367
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:07,040
but the British government and 
the BBC in particular absolutely

368
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:09,840
do that. 
They, they condition people to 

369
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:14,800
reject anything that somebody 
has to say if they've said that 

370
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:18,360
one thing, or conversely to 
accept if, if they haven't, you 

371
00:23:18,360 --> 00:23:19,560
know, you do whichever way 
around. 

372
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:25,040
So I, so I'm afraid to say I do 
absolutely echo your views. 

373
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:28,000
I mean, I'm not, I'm not 
suggesting I, I would, I don't 

374
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:30,400
get wound up by it. 
I'm just incredulous. 

375
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:35,200
I just, I'm amazed that people 
would do it on the one hand, and

376
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:41,760
also slightly amused, bemused 
that I that I see that as a 

377
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:46,040
absolute mainstream conditioning
response. 

378
00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:50,640
And, and again, you know, if 
people think that's, that's 

379
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:53,720
having a dig, I'm not obviously 
having a personal dig. 

380
00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:56,680
It's just that that's the way it
seems to, that's the way where 

381
00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:58,680
it seems to have come from. 
And actually sorry just on that 

382
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:00,600
because it's been annoying me 
for a whole week. 

383
00:24:02,120 --> 00:24:07,640
Towards the end of last weeks 
recording you made some remark 

384
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:13,360
about wanting to punch a wall 
every time that somebody said 

385
00:24:13,360 --> 00:24:17,120
something in relation to her 
carbon credits with Angus 

386
00:24:17,120 --> 00:24:20,440
Mackintosh Farm. 
My my first comment would be why

387
00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:22,440
waste energy punching only a 
wall? 

388
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:27,880
But the second thing I was going
to say was that that is 

389
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:32,000
absolutely case in point that 
the and, but this is deliberate 

390
00:24:32,120 --> 00:24:34,120
carbon credits is such a good 
example. 

391
00:24:34,120 --> 00:24:37,400
Angus talks about putting carbon
into the soil. 

392
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:40,120
He's not talking about carbon 
dioxide. 

393
00:24:40,360 --> 00:24:44,480
It is no accident that people 
talk about a carbon footprint 

394
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:46,800
rather than a carbon dioxide 
footprint. 

395
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:51,640
They are two different things 
and people absolutely on on both

396
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:55,120
sides of the argument, if we're 
going to call it that. 

397
00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:58,480
I mean, again, I'm, I'm creating
a false binary there suggesting 

398
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:02,120
that it is one of the other. 
But, but, but the point is that 

399
00:25:02,120 --> 00:25:04,960
that is absolutely typical of 
it. 

400
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:08,240
The moment somebody says carbon 
something, it's right. 

401
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:09,920
Oh, why? 
Yeah, yeah, that's it. 

402
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:11,280
I've had it. 
I've absolutely had it with 

403
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:12,960
them. 
Doesn't matter what they say. 

404
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,560
Or indeed the fact that without 
carbon, or indeed, of course 

405
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:17,920
carbon dioxide, we'd all be 
dead. 

406
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:22,360
So yes, sorry, I just, I just 
wanted to get that in. 

407
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:26,640
It's it's been a week and every 
so often it just comes back into

408
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:28,840
my brain and I was so crossed 
with myself for forgetting to 

409
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:30,800
mention it last week. 
No, but that's a good point. 

410
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:34,080
Yeah. 
No, it's a good point because. 

411
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:38,200
Because, I mean, without going 
into the discussion, carbon is 

412
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,520
it's essential to life. 
So but putting it into the soil 

413
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:43,600
is a good thing. 
There's nothing, there's nothing

414
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:45,080
that should trigger you about 
it. 

415
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,560
Me wanting to punch the wall. 
It's just that I get so like 

416
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:53,000
Mike, I get so frustrated at the
the fact that we, we go through 

417
00:25:53,120 --> 00:25:58,120
so much effort to put quality 
into these discussions and to 

418
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:02,640
chatting and, and really trying 
to spread ideas, you know, that 

419
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:06,360
are good ideas. 
And then you get these trolls, 

420
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:11,120
who I get it, you shouldn't, you
shouldn't worry about them. 

421
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:15,120
But sometimes, Charles, 
sometimes I'm just human. 

422
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:20,680
Yeah, No, you are, I mean my no,
specifically what I mean, I 

423
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:25,080
suppose I shouldn't really be 
advocating for violence against 

424
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:27,240
the person. 
And perhaps this early on in the

425
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:31,240
recording, and I guess I'm not 
really, but but I think that 

426
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:35,280
the, the, the more serious point
is, is the is people sort of 

427
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:37,480
expending energy in a in a 
pointless way. 

428
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:41,400
And, and Arnold Schwarzenegger, 
we have to blame for that. 

429
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,640
And look what he said in 2020 
about whatever he said, stuff 

430
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:46,880
your freedom. 
If it weren't for him, people 

431
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:52,640
wouldn't go and express their 
pent up energy in such a 

432
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:54,680
pointless way. 
And I know this sounds over 

433
00:26:54,680 --> 00:27:00,400
critical, but to go and expend 
energy in, in a gym is, is 

434
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:02,240
amazing. 
I mean, be like filling up your 

435
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:06,400
car with fuel and you know what 
they try to do in Ferris 

436
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:08,000
Bueller's Day Off and they're 
trying to take the miles back 

437
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:09,920
off the clock and you're just 
putting it on the thing and just

438
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,600
letting it run and nothing. 
What's the? 

439
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,440
What's the result? 
Sorry. 

440
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:18,560
It's a bit of a sidebar, but I 
mean, but, but that is but, but 

441
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,280
I think it just speaks volumes 
about the society within which 

442
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:23,240
we live. 
You know, what skills, what 

443
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:27,400
practical skills do we have that
are that our parents didn't 

444
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:29,720
have? 
Probably none, except we can do 

445
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:35,040
more stuff on computers. 
President Marcus Aurelius 

446
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,800
Charles is. 
That is that good. 

447
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:40,440
Bring, bring, bring some 
stoicism. 

448
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,320
That's. 
Well, no anyway, sorry. 

449
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:46,640
It's it's just. 
But I think it's a point worth 

450
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:53,520
making because so much of what 
we do now has a has a zero. 

451
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:57,800
You know, the result is 0. 
You think, you know, whether it 

452
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:02,560
is sort of physical fitness or 
preparation or, or whatever, but

453
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:04,760
but I mean, how does that 
actually convert into anything 

454
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:07,200
useful? 
And I think it's as much a 

455
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:08,800
mental thing as a physical 
thing. 

456
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:12,240
So sorry to, to, yeah, I mean, 
the, the, the gym thing is, is a

457
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,960
slightly pointless thing to say,
but I, I don't think it is. 

458
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:18,720
I mean, just just think of what 
people could physically do if 

459
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:22,880
they use that energy, doing what
the Amish do, for example, just 

460
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,520
helping each other to build 
bonds, build houses or, or 

461
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:29,160
whatever. 
So it's a it's a separate point,

462
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,840
But I do think it's very much 
related to everything that we 

463
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:33,960
talk about all the time. 
If you're going to put on a 

464
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:39,560
festival, a music festival or a 
freedom festival, or, you know, 

465
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:43,120
like the, the the beautiful days
festival, amazing discourse. 

466
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:46,040
But how do you capture that? 
And then and then actually make 

467
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:49,240
something of it? 
How how does how does, how does 

468
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:52,600
the result come from that? 
And I think, I think that's how 

469
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,840
much more stuff should be, 
should be viewed, which is 

470
00:28:55,840 --> 00:29:00,680
exactly actually why getting 
triggered by a reference to 

471
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:03,160
carbon, for example, is such a 
problem. 

472
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:07,480
Really, rather than considering 
the obstacles on, on the course,

473
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:12,160
why, why not think more about 
the, the good stuff and how you 

474
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:16,960
use that? 
So yes, I, I, I do think all of 

475
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:21,960
this is is very much related. 
Just just a couple of points 

476
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,200
there, just to clarify 
something, you know, I'm, I'm 

477
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:28,440
absolutely going to reject any 
notion that that I sit and get 

478
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,080
frustrated by these kinds of 
comments and think about them 

479
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,320
constantly. 
I see that, I see those types of

480
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:38,200
comments in the chat box and and
yes, I I usually swear and 

481
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,040
weirdly or something to myself, 
but but that's, that's, that's 

482
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:42,840
it done there. 
There's no, I'm not going to 

483
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,240
waste a millisecond actually 
thinking about that. 

484
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,280
From that point forward. 
The thing that the thing that's 

485
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:53,280
sort of is, is difficult about 
it is that that of course the 

486
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:58,280
comments like that, not only are
they indicative of someone who 

487
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:02,360
is demoralised themselves, but 
they demoralise other people. 

488
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:04,960
So you're actually helping the 
state by posting stuff like 

489
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:07,800
that. 
And that that that is something 

490
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:10,400
that I think needs to be said. 
But for the festivals 

491
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:14,040
themselves, Charles, I would 
love, you know, hope went some 

492
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:19,240
way to it, I suppose, because 
they had, you know, art sessions

493
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:22,760
by by Jake Fern and so on and 
and other stuff. 

494
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,320
But I would, I would actually, 
the thing that I thought that 

495
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:29,240
was missing, that I think is 
missing absolutely from from the

496
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:33,880
freedom festivals that we've 
been to is the practical skills 

497
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,840
training side of things. 
They should, that's just if I 

498
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:40,520
were running an event like that,
yes, the music is it should be 

499
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:42,320
on in the from the evenings or 
whatever. 

500
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:45,920
But but let's get some some 
people that actually know how to

501
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:52,840
to do things in how to, to, to 
run training on various topics, 

502
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:55,800
whether that's community 
building or, or, or, you know, 

503
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:59,280
self growing your own food or 
whatever it happens to be. 

504
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:02,800
There isn't enough of that kind 
of that kind of activity in 

505
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:05,720
these in these events as far as 
I can see so far. 

506
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:07,920
And I think that would be a 
great step forward. 

507
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:10,160
I, I totally agree. 
And I think that goes back to 

508
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,000
the, the idea of cross 
pollination. 

509
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:16,760
I mean, given my lifestyle, the 
type of first of all I'm much 

510
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:20,880
more likely to go to is, is an 
agricultural show or something 

511
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:24,200
related to that. 
But that but that is where those

512
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:29,600
things do excel because almost 
always you will have some sort 

513
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:33,280
of demonstration, either 
something that's just a little 

514
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:36,160
stall that you go up to where 
somebody is is doing something, 

515
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:40,080
whether it's a a blacksmith at 
work or a Cooper or you know, 

516
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:41,440
somebody who has a practical 
skill. 

517
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:44,560
And I'm not suggesting that 
therefore we all need sort of 

518
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:46,600
rural skills that we're never 
going to be able to use. 

519
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:51,240
But you just never know who 
might be inspired to to do what 

520
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:55,200
or what, what linkage you might 
find with with that particular 

521
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:57,280
person or with other people that
are watching it, that are drawn 

522
00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:59,560
towards it. 
So I think that is absolutely a 

523
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:02,680
thing. 
But also this is this is where 

524
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:08,080
there are points of crossover 
because whether or not you have 

525
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:14,680
you're aware of the full story 
on the Skripals or whether or 

526
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:17,960
not you think that carbon or 
carbon dioxide is a big problem.

527
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:21,640
You can be in agreement with 
somebody that you want to eat 

528
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:25,440
something that is good for you 
and that you don't want a 

529
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:31,080
government that is oppressive. 
And and so I think as a way of 

530
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:37,320
bringing, you know, bringing in 
this element of presenting 

531
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:43,840
people of perhaps differing 
points of view with with these 

532
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:47,320
points of convergence, I think 
is a is a really important one. 

533
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:51,640
It seems like from what Patrick 
has reported back that that the 

534
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:54,640
beautiful days event did do that
to a certain degree. 

535
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,280
But although I would think that 
you would be absolutely right 

536
00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:00,400
that that there there's, I would
have doubted there would be 

537
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:03,920
anything that would be akin to, 
to sort of learning something 

538
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:06,240
that is in effect a, a practical
skill. 

539
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:08,480
But I think that I, I, I, I 
totally agree. 

540
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:13,080
And I think this is where not 
just in the festival context, 

541
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:15,640
but but in life, and I know 
we've talked about this quite a 

542
00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:20,160
lot before, but practical skills
are in in really short supply. 

543
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:25,360
And they are, they're an 
excellent way of bringing people

544
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:29,000
together in a, in a, in a sort 
of genuine fashion. 

545
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,560
I mean, you know, because, 
because people feel that they 

546
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:33,560
are actually doing something 
useful. 

547
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:37,080
And I think going back to the 
sort of 2020 thereafter thing of

548
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:40,520
where have people gone now? 
I think a lot of people, yes, I 

549
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:42,440
agree. 
I, I was, I was, I was 

550
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:47,200
speculating, but I, but my, my 
sort of positive bent in terms 

551
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:49,280
of speculation was, well, 
perhaps people are going away 

552
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:51,920
and learning something. 
I think absolutely we have to 

553
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:55,000
recognise that for a lot of 
people, it's just been far too 

554
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,560
much doom and gloom and they've 
felt that the whole thing is 

555
00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:00,040
hopeless. 
And that's that which is why 

556
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:05,720
they haven't resurfaced and they
haven't learned the sorts of 

557
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,960
things that are going to enable 
them to to change their lives 

558
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:13,560
and indeed be further outside of
that element of whether it be 

559
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:16,480
state or corporate control. 
So, yeah, I think this is a 

560
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:18,840
really important issue. 
And I think this in fact about 

561
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:21,880
something that we should talk 
about with a view to to next 

562
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:24,840
year and what we can start 
thinking about doing about that.

563
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:29,880
I wonder. 
I wonder if it's just big events

564
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:33,560
or as Matthias Desmond would 
say, sort of free floating 

565
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:39,040
anxiety, which can be amplified 
by big events that capture in a 

566
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:44,239
way people to aggregate or 
congregate around that say 

567
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:48,040
festivals or other type of ways 
of thinking. 

568
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,800
But when nothing really majors 
going on, they're kind of just, 

569
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:55,199
you know, dissipate and go back 
into how they were. 

570
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:00,720
John, are you saying that 
there's nothing major going on? 

571
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:06,840
Well, there's always something 
major going on, but, but. 

572
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:09,840
It's levels. 
It's levels, Mike, it's levels. 

573
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:12,640
No, I, I, I think that's 
absolutely right. 

574
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:17,360
I think this is this probably 
this does get to the heart of 

575
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:19,920
it. 
I think for an awful lot of 

576
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:24,880
people, they can't decide what 
it is that is going on because 

577
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:27,520
there are so many different 
things and there's not one thing

578
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:29,400
that's head and shoulders above 
anything else. 

579
00:35:29,720 --> 00:35:34,560
And therefore there's not one 
sort of agenda item around which

580
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:37,960
people can coalesce. 
And that that is a problem. 

581
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:40,680
And that that goes back to 
exactly what we've described and

582
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:43,480
what people have absolutely 
recognised, which was how when 

583
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:47,800
the, when the COVID tyranny rug 
was pulled from under people, 

584
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:52,360
they were completely left 
floundering because the sorts of

585
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:57,280
things that had been, let's say,
predicted or projected, like 

586
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:01,920
digital identity and central 
bank digital currency. 

587
00:36:02,720 --> 00:36:08,320
Yes, of course, those are still 
ongoing items, but they haven't 

588
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:12,040
yet in, in in most places, they 
haven't yet come to pass. 

589
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:19,000
And then it meant that that 
people's sort of get up and go 

590
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:23,720
was was taken away from them. 
It was then too, it was too 

591
00:36:23,720 --> 00:36:25,320
difficult. 
And I think, and I think this is

592
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:29,520
again, absolutely part and 
parcel of the way in which the 

593
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:33,200
news cycle, in particular by the
mainstream is managed. 

594
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:37,800
Nothing dominates for a long 
enough period for people to 

595
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:41,680
really get stuck into it. 
Charles, I'd be interested to 

596
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:45,720
get your, your thoughts on this 
because I have to admit to 

597
00:36:45,720 --> 00:36:48,440
feeling a certain sense of 
failure. 

598
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:55,440
Because whenever the COVID thing
finished, you know, we were 

599
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:58,960
absolutely talking about what 
was coming next. 

600
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:03,960
We were talking about the fact 
that, that the certain people 

601
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:07,080
were using the term Poly crisis,
that we were going to be 

602
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:11,680
bombarded with multiple events 
which were going to make it very

603
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:18,160
hard to know which way was up. 
And, and somehow people, despite

604
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:20,760
the fact that that that would, 
that, you know, that was being 

605
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:23,560
expressed, people weren't 
prepared for it, I think. 

606
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:28,080
And in many ways. 
And, and part of the reason that

607
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:32,160
the people are turning off was 
because they didn't, they didn't

608
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:36,320
recognise what was coming next 
and see that as, as the next 

609
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:40,360
stage of the same agenda. 
And that that, you know, they 

610
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:41,920
didn't separate themselves from 
it. 

611
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:43,840
Therefore it has actually 
affected them. 

612
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:48,000
Do you say, do you say it the 
same way as this? 

613
00:37:48,240 --> 00:37:52,840
Have we have, I don't mean us 
specifically, but have, have 

614
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:58,840
the, the, the commentators and 
the analysts failed to a certain

615
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:04,640
degree in in explaining that and
and and giving people the the 

616
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:10,520
sort of strength to resist. 
It's a very good question and I 

617
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:15,880
think it's one that it's hard to
answer with any degree of 

618
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:18,840
certainty, not least because of 
the incredible array of 

619
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:23,360
perspectives that there'll be on
that on on both sides. 

620
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:30,320
I would say what is absolutely 
observable on the commentator 

621
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:34,960
side of it is that people who 
were apparently aligned very 

622
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:41,560
much on what was going wrong 
between 2020 and 2022 have 

623
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:46,480
turned out to have either small 
or in fact quite large 

624
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:50,280
differences of opinion on a lot 
of what has happened since. 

625
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:54,160
And I think people have there's 
been a a great tendency because 

626
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:57,200
of the extreme focus of those 
two years. 

627
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:01,320
I think some people have been 
drawn into a position of 

628
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:05,680
thinking that there has to be 
similarly one thing that 

629
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:11,800
requires focus, which means that
what you refer to in in the Poly

630
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:14,880
crisis scenario, which I believe
is absolutely a correct 

631
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:21,120
description that, that, that is 
therefore to in some ways to 

632
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:25,360
wilfully ignore all the other 
things or, or make them seem 

633
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:30,960
less significant in comparison 
to the one thing. 

634
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:36,760
Or indeed, there's no real 
consistent agreement on how the 

635
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:41,800
various things relate to each 
other or what the goals of those

636
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:48,720
things might be. 
So I, I, I think it's, I think 

637
00:39:48,720 --> 00:39:53,080
perhaps overly harsh or overly 
critical to think that those 

638
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:55,760
commentating have necessarily 
failed. 

639
00:39:56,520 --> 00:40:00,920
I think it it it depends what 
sort of feedback. 

640
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:05,880
They are getting from first of 
all, their audiences or from the

641
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:12,040
people that are around them. 
So without wanting to sort of 

642
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:16,880
dodge a specific answer to the 
question totally, I do think 

643
00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:20,760
it's it's really hard to say and
we do see this with our with our

644
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:22,240
audiences. 
I thought yesterday was actually

645
00:40:22,240 --> 00:40:25,880
quite, oh, sorry, Wednesday's 
news was, was kind of case in 

646
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:29,360
point. 
The what I spoke about at the, 

647
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:34,400
at the start of the programme 
was the basically the sort of 

648
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:43,840
confection of a response of 
national fervour to, to the, the

649
00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:47,560
political topic of what's being 
described as mass deportation. 

650
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:55,200
And it my feeling on it is that 
people have made their minds up 

651
00:40:55,200 --> 00:41:00,120
about what they think of it, 
what's right and this that and 

652
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:07,320
the other and that to a large 
extent, people don't really want

653
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:11,760
to hear the the potential 
pitfalls. 

654
00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:18,840
And, and the specific one I was 
describing was a campaign that 

655
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:25,760
seems completely innocent, which
is to fly flags, fly the flags 

656
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:29,840
of the, the Union Flag or Saint 
George's Cross sort of anywhere 

657
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:34,160
and everywhere in England with 
which one would hope that there 

658
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:36,520
was absolutely no issue. 
Why on earth should there be? 

659
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:44,400
But the reason that it to me 
sticks out as being a potential 

660
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:48,560
trap is that, first of all, look
how flags have been used over 

661
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:52,280
the last five years. 
We had the the NHS sort of 

662
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:57,760
rainbow flag, the Black Lives 
Matter flag, the transgender Pro

663
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:01,400
Pride Progress flag, the Ukraine
flag, the Palestine flag. 

664
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:07,520
So it's as though if flags are 
absolutely used in a way to sort

665
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:09,640
of capture and manipulate 
people's minds. 

666
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:12,120
To say that the flag that 
already exists for this country 

667
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:14,160
could do that perhaps is a bit 
of a stretch. 

668
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:18,880
But what I meant by it was that 
it's very easy to see how people

669
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:23,480
are being pushed into a position
of not just putting the flag up 

670
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:26,440
in its own right because they're
proud to be British or whatever 

671
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:28,760
it is. 
It's it's in reaction to 

672
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:31,680
something else. 
So tearing down a Ukraine flag 

673
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:34,400
and putting that up or tearing 
down a Palestine flag and 

674
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:36,800
putting that up. 
And that is where you get into 

675
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:40,760
slightly dangerous territory 
because then your focus is 

676
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:45,000
against somebody else rather 
than just for being British. 

677
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:49,280
And, and it's the being against 
something that is absolutely 

678
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:52,200
weaponized every time and turned
into a drama. 

679
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:55,280
And then we get into scraps of 
the police and blah, blah. 

680
00:42:55,280 --> 00:43:00,120
And then, you know, focus 
against in particular the the 

681
00:43:00,240 --> 00:43:04,440
Islamic communities that are 
across the United Kingdom and, 

682
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:08,880
and blah, blah, blah. 
So that I think is a good 

683
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:13,040
example of part of this, this 
idea of, of Poly crisis. 

684
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:15,600
But I go back to this point 
where people, people have their 

685
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:18,800
own views on it and they and 
they and they don't want to 

686
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:21,320
consider the idea that, you 
know, that there's sort of 

687
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:23,720
anything wrong with it. 
Even if subsequently it turns 

688
00:43:23,720 --> 00:43:26,440
out that actually this whole 
thing does get subverted, 

689
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:29,040
manipulated, twisted, as I as 
I'm afraid to say, I think it is

690
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:33,040
likely to do so, Yeah. 
Yeah, I, I would say it, it 

691
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:38,000
already has been, Charles. 
And the, the, the danger here, I

692
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:43,160
think is that, you know, it was 
clear to people during lockdown 

693
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:50,080
that the enemy was the state 
itself because the, the, the 

694
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:52,560
enemy that the state was telling
people that they should be 

695
00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:55,360
afraid of was something that was
invisible. 

696
00:43:56,480 --> 00:44:00,120
The enemy that the state is 
effectively telling people to be

697
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:03,240
afraid of through various 
convoluted means at the moment 

698
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:08,080
is not invisible. 
It's, it's there because it's 

699
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:11,000
got brown skin or it's whatever.
It's, it's there. 

700
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:12,920
It's obvious, it's in people's 
faces. 

701
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:16,600
It's living in hotels. 
It's so that is, that is 

702
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:19,680
something which is physical and 
is there and can be seen and 

703
00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:24,440
it's right in front of them. 
And because or at least partly 

704
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:31,360
because of that difference, the 
idea that it's it's not the 

705
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:36,120
brown skinned person, but the 
state which is attacking them is

706
00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:38,480
is 1, which they seem to have 
forgotten. 

707
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:42,320
At least the possibility that 
the state is that it's attacking

708
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:44,440
them that is the real enemy here
is something that they've 

709
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:46,800
forgotten. 
Other things that people have 

710
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:50,600
forgotten is that if you look 
back at, you know, the Arab 

711
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:54,880
Spring or the Maidan or a whole 
bunch of these other so called 

712
00:44:55,880 --> 00:45:02,080
grassroots revolutionary 
movements that have happened in 

713
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:05,600
other countries, we've been 
willing to acknowledge that 

714
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:09,400
those to a greater or lesser 
extent have been manipulated 

715
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:11,880
events. 
And yet we're not prepared to 

716
00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:14,960
acknowledge that something which
is happening in our shores is a 

717
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:20,200
manipulated event. 
And part of this might be 

718
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:28,360
because it's people perceive the
people living in hotels is an 

719
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:31,120
easier target than than the 
state, because the state's a big

720
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:32,440
thing. 
It's a hard thing and it's 

721
00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:34,240
difficult to to fight against 
that. 

722
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:46,120
But I think that that what, what
is perhaps regrettable is it 

723
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:49,600
that people are being drawn 
along on the, on the Crest of a 

724
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:54,560
wave on this thing and they're 
not stopping to consider the 

725
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:58,160
implications of what or of where
this ends up. 

726
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:03,360
And you know, we have been 
trying to make the point for 

727
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:09,160
many, many years now that that 
if there is significant civil 

728
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:13,480
unrest in this country or well, 
this is where we're talking 

729
00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:17,800
about, but in any of our 
countries that the state is just

730
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:22,120
sitting there waiting in the 
wings to step in and, and deal 

731
00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:25,960
with that. 
And we've been trying to make 

732
00:46:25,960 --> 00:46:32,040
the point that whatever we saw 
in 2020-2021, 2022 is really 

733
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:36,120
pretty light touch compared to 
what we're going to see if we 

734
00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:40,520
end up on a, in a war footing, 
no matter whether that's civil 

735
00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:45,760
war or something abroad. 
And finally, to say it once 

736
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:48,640
again, because I think it just 
needs to be repeated and 

737
00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:52,840
repeated and repeated. 
This country's military 

738
00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:56,600
doctrine, which we have exported
to Europe and the United States 

739
00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:59,280
to some degree, but this 
country's military doctrine now 

740
00:46:59,720 --> 00:47:05,760
is absolutely clear that the 
home theatre is no longer 

741
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:08,960
considered a safe place. 
That home is as much and a 

742
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:11,840
theatre of operations as abroad 
is. 

743
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:15,600
And we've got to we've got to 
absolutely take this all into 

744
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:20,280
account before we're tearing 
down a flag to replace it with 

745
00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:23,400
another flag. 
And you know, just to deal with 

746
00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:25,840
any criticism here. 
This does not mean that we 

747
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:28,400
should not be proud of our flag,
right? 

748
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:33,480
Our flag, our country. 
These things should be things 

749
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:38,640
that we are proud of. 
We've got to remember when they 

750
00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:43,120
are being weaponized against us.
And you know, this proves I've 

751
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:45,880
said, I said this on extra on 
Wednesdays extra. 

752
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:48,280
But we'll just, it's worth just 
saying again. 

753
00:47:49,720 --> 00:47:53,280
This process began 40 or 50 
years ago, whenever the 

754
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:56,960
mainstream media began pushing 
the narrative that that somehow 

755
00:47:56,960 --> 00:48:00,600
English people should be ashamed
of the English flag, that the 

756
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:04,680
English flag had become a symbol
of right wing extremism. 

757
00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:07,400
And that the only time that they
were allowed to bring the 

758
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:12,000
English flag out was when 
England football team or England

759
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:14,400
rugby team was taking part in 
some kind of international 

760
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:17,440
sport. 
That's when this fight should 

761
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:20,040
have been fought. 
And that's when the the notion 

762
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:26,480
of the flag being something 
which symbolised or there was to

763
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:29,840
be considered embarrassing 
should have been dealt with. 

764
00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:33,360
And now we're in a position 
where where that weaponization 

765
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:36,000
is coming to full fruition. 
And that's in my opinion, is 

766
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:39,560
really extremely dangerous. 
And and we need to take a step 

767
00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:43,440
back and and consider this. 
Yeah. 

768
00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:54,040
Well, reject the the out on the 
streets narrative and right 

769
00:48:54,680 --> 00:49:02,640
look, how do I put this? 
A lot of years ago, whenever the

770
00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:05,840
issue of immigration was being 
discussed, Brian was in a 

771
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:10,200
meeting with the BNP British 
National Party and, and this was

772
00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:14,440
being discussed and, and the, 
the issue of people coming into 

773
00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:18,160
the country, there was a bit of 
push back from the audience and,

774
00:49:18,200 --> 00:49:22,920
and somebody said something 
about immigration and, and, and 

775
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:24,640
Brian made the point, well, how 
did they get in? 

776
00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:28,720
Did they fight their way ashore 
Now that at that time was 

777
00:49:28,720 --> 00:49:30,360
something that just wasn't 
happening. 

778
00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:35,880
Of course, now we have suddenly 
been getting lots of footage 

779
00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:41,120
from mainstream Press of people 
apparently doing something like 

780
00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:44,600
that. 
And of course we've got this 

781
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:47,040
idea that we should have mass 
deportations now, which is 

782
00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:52,360
originated in the United States.
Starmer has just done a deal 

783
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:58,120
with the, with the French, which
says that if 100 people fight 

784
00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:00,760
their way ashore, as it were, 
that those people are going to 

785
00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:02,920
be removed from the country and 
they're going to be replaced 

786
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:05,520
with 100 other people that the 
French have decided are good 

787
00:50:05,520 --> 00:50:07,280
people and need to come into to 
Britain. 

788
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:10,880
And I'm not saying any push back
against that. 

789
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:16,560
I'm saying push back against the
people that are in the hotels. 

790
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:19,560
I'm saying demonstrations 
outside the hotels and people, 

791
00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:22,880
you know, commenting on, on that
situation. 

792
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:27,840
But the, the, the policy that 
the, the, the, the parliamentary

793
00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:33,240
decision making this government,
I'm not saying the, the angst 

794
00:50:33,240 --> 00:50:34,920
being directed in that 
direction. 

795
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:37,920
And it seems to me that, that 
everybody's pointing at a 

796
00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:41,520
symptom and they're not trying 
to deal with the disease. 

797
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:45,240
And bearing in mind what we've 
just gone through and, and in 

798
00:50:45,240 --> 00:50:50,240
the early part of this decade, 
I'm struggling to understand why

799
00:50:50,520 --> 00:50:55,040
people haven't been more 
equipped to, to, to reach the 

800
00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:58,680
right conclusions on this. 
It might be, as I say, just 

801
00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:03,120
because it's easier to to target
the, the, the relatively 

802
00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:05,800
helpless people that are in 
hotels. 

803
00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:09,480
We've got to be targeting the 
right thing and that that is the

804
00:51:09,480 --> 00:51:10,120
state. 
So. 

805
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:16,680
So that's where I would start. 
The state, the state and the 

806
00:51:16,680 --> 00:51:21,280
stakeholders. 
Well, who? 

807
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:25,920
Who do you mean by stakeholders?
That means Ian Davis as, as Ian 

808
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:29,040
Davis would argue, the the the 
private companies that are 

809
00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:36,000
aligned the the public private 
partnerships, so not just the 

810
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:39,120
state. 
Yeah, but it's, but it's the 

811
00:51:39,120 --> 00:51:40,760
state. 
It's the state that controls the

812
00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:42,880
borders, Jeremy. 
And and the state has the 

813
00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:45,720
borders absolutely wide open at 
the moment. 

814
00:51:45,720 --> 00:51:46,920
Yes, yeah. 
OK. 

815
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:48,920
All right, I get. 
To this is not, this is not the 

816
00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:51,480
fault of the immigrant. 
This is the fault of the state. 

817
00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:57,840
And and if, if we, if we, you 
know, end up fighting on the 

818
00:51:57,840 --> 00:52:01,960
streets with immigrants, which 
is where we're going, absolutely

819
00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:05,760
at this point in time, we are 
doing the state's job for it 

820
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:10,280
because the state wants to close
down this country and all 

821
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:15,240
opposition to what it's doing. 
This crisis is state generated 

822
00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:20,120
and you know, we got to we got 
to focus on that and we got to 

823
00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:22,320
focus on who the actual enemy 
is. 

824
00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:26,920
And, and lots of people are 
pushing back at at me and, and 

825
00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:31,600
us for saying this, because 
we're just apologising for, for 

826
00:52:31,640 --> 00:52:38,600
Islam or we're no, we're not. 
We're saying that that is that 

827
00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:46,240
problem is something that can 
only be dealt with with it it on

828
00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:49,760
a on a level playing field. 
Let's say whenever people are 

829
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:53,600
full of rage, they're going to 
make the wrong decisions when it

830
00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:55,080
comes to how to deal with the 
problem. 

831
00:52:55,080 --> 00:52:59,040
We're going to stop the problem 
getting worse 1st and that lies 

832
00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:00,640
with the state. 
Yeah. 

833
00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:05,400
I think, I think also there are 
two, two separate things that 

834
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:11,760
are being willfully conflated. 
And I should say at the outset, 

835
00:53:11,800 --> 00:53:16,160
I absolutely agree with of 
course there. 

836
00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:18,560
I mean, you know, what on earth 
could be wrong with being proud 

837
00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:21,560
to be British or proud to be 
South African or proud to be 

838
00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:25,520
French, whatever, that that 
shouldn't need saying. 

839
00:53:25,520 --> 00:53:30,000
But somehow it does need saying 
in this, in this climate. 

840
00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:35,480
So with that in mind, and again,
considering the fact that yes, 

841
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:41,720
the state is in charge of 
migration in, in, in every, in 

842
00:53:41,720 --> 00:53:44,560
every regard, but specifically 
the the the issue that has 

843
00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:47,440
become such a flashpoint for 
everybody is the in particular, 

844
00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:49,600
you know, the idea of sort of 
small boat crossings. 

845
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:51,520
And, and exactly what Mike's 
just been talking about. 

846
00:53:51,880 --> 00:53:57,480
Now what one thing that really 
sticks out as a point of 

847
00:53:57,480 --> 00:54:04,080
conflation is this idea that 
say, Islam is replacing 

848
00:54:04,080 --> 00:54:08,920
Christianity as though the the 
the story goes that Muslims are 

849
00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:13,080
pushing Christians out of church
and then taking over church 

850
00:54:13,080 --> 00:54:15,520
buildings and making them 
mosques. 

851
00:54:16,200 --> 00:54:19,000
That that and the reason I 
prefix this with the there's, 

852
00:54:19,160 --> 00:54:21,280
you know, there's nothing wrong 
with being proud to be British. 

853
00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:23,440
We go back to the question which
is what? 

854
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:25,320
What is it that is British, 
then? 

855
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:31,040
If you are, if you are 
complaining that there is not a 

856
00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:35,840
British condition that is 
sufficiently strong to resist 

857
00:54:35,840 --> 00:54:40,160
the sensation that another 
culture has pervaded and taken 

858
00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:45,440
over, then why is that possible?
And I can say with absolute 

859
00:54:45,440 --> 00:54:49,160
authority that there is 
absolutely no way in which 

860
00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:53,880
Muslims may push Christians out 
of churches and then take over 

861
00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:55,880
church buildings. 
That is not possible. 

862
00:54:56,160 --> 00:54:59,520
The only way in which that can 
happen is if church communities,

863
00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:02,880
church congregations have 
dwindled to such a point that 

864
00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:05,560
the Church of England in 
particular has to go through the

865
00:55:05,560 --> 00:55:10,040
very, very expensive and 
laborious process of getting rid

866
00:55:10,040 --> 00:55:12,800
of that building as a church. 
At which point it can be turned 

867
00:55:12,800 --> 00:55:15,840
into flats or turned into a 
shopping centre or turned into a

868
00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:17,520
mosque. 
But the first thing that has to 

869
00:55:17,520 --> 00:55:21,040
happen is that people have to 
walk away from that church and, 

870
00:55:22,080 --> 00:55:25,440
and, and, and abandon it. 
That's why it happens. 

871
00:55:25,680 --> 00:55:29,880
And if we're to start flying 
flags and talk about the United 

872
00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:33,560
Kingdom as a, as a Christian 
country and, and all this sort 

873
00:55:33,560 --> 00:55:35,800
of thing, well, then people have
to mean it. 

874
00:55:36,080 --> 00:55:40,760
So I know this sounds like sort 
of, you know, campaign for just 

875
00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:42,680
the church. 
And yes, there are many, many 

876
00:55:42,680 --> 00:55:45,360
issues with the church. 
But again, that goes back to 

877
00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:49,000
this idea of the right people 
supporting the right things. 

878
00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:53,440
And I've got to conversation 
with Alex Thompson that would 

879
00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:57,640
have come out yesterday or on 
exactly this issue about, you 

880
00:55:57,640 --> 00:56:00,560
know, how in a way the Church of
England has been allowed to go 

881
00:56:00,560 --> 00:56:03,600
off the rails. 
I, I know it's a bit late in the

882
00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:06,440
conversation today to be opening
up this, this sort of can of 

883
00:56:06,440 --> 00:56:08,720
worms, but it does all point 
back to the same thing. 

884
00:56:08,720 --> 00:56:12,240
And the, and the problem is that
that in a way, this might sound 

885
00:56:12,240 --> 00:56:14,400
over critical, but you can't, 
you can't have it both ways. 

886
00:56:14,400 --> 00:56:18,840
You can't say that you're proud 
to be British and want to have 

887
00:56:18,840 --> 00:56:23,000
this idea of, you know, Britain,
the United Kingdom, England, 

888
00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:26,600
whatever it is as being a 
particular place and then not 

889
00:56:26,720 --> 00:56:30,400
actually behave like it. 
So how many of the people who 

890
00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:36,200
are tearing down Palestine flags
and putting up Union flags or 

891
00:56:36,200 --> 00:56:39,400
Saint George's crosses and 
effectively demonising Islam 

892
00:56:39,560 --> 00:56:43,360
actually go to church? 
I mean, the only reason I'm 

893
00:56:43,360 --> 00:56:46,080
using the church is because it's
just such an obvious one and 

894
00:56:46,080 --> 00:56:52,280
it's such a, it's such a well 
rehearsed line specifically 

895
00:56:52,280 --> 00:56:58,120
about churches becoming mosques.
But it that cannot happen unless

896
00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:03,040
people voluntarily stop going to
church, leave it, abandon it, at

897
00:57:03,040 --> 00:57:07,320
which point a community that 
does want to make use of it will

898
00:57:07,320 --> 00:57:11,200
do so. 
There are there are many, many 

899
00:57:11,200 --> 00:57:13,600
problems with this. 
And and, you know, I appreciate 

900
00:57:13,600 --> 00:57:17,440
that that to a certain extent, 
this will create sort of 

901
00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:20,680
sensitivities and people might 
think that I'm kind of having a 

902
00:57:20,680 --> 00:57:21,800
go at them. 
I'm not. 

903
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:25,000
What I'm asking for is for 
people to be consistent and also

904
00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:30,320
to consider how this idea of 
sort of patriotism or whatever 

905
00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:34,440
it is can be weaponized. 
Because in my book, if you are 

906
00:57:34,440 --> 00:57:38,240
proud of being British, you're 
proud of your nation or whatever

907
00:57:38,240 --> 00:57:40,000
it is that should stand in its 
own right. 

908
00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:43,040
That doesn't mean to say that 
you are British and therefore 

909
00:57:43,040 --> 00:57:48,640
you're against so and so and 
that, you know, so it's it's all

910
00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:54,760
to do with with with being 
opposed to other beliefs, other 

911
00:57:54,760 --> 00:57:57,760
ideas, other cultures. 
That's that's an incredibly 

912
00:57:57,760 --> 00:58:00,120
insecure position to try to 
hold. 

913
00:58:00,360 --> 00:58:04,280
Why can't we simply have the 
secure position of thinking, 

914
00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:07,280
well, we are British, we do have
a functioning culture and 

915
00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:10,600
society and we know that will 
thrive and endure. 

916
00:58:11,360 --> 00:58:13,320
And, and I think we know the 
answer to that because 

917
00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:16,800
unfortunately it's been picked 
apart and we have fallen foul of

918
00:58:16,800 --> 00:58:19,480
all the various campaigns over 
exactly like Mike says over the 

919
00:58:19,480 --> 00:58:22,160
last 50 years that have 
absolutely destabilised this. 

920
00:58:22,160 --> 00:58:25,600
The only way to rectify that is 
to go back to start and start at

921
00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:29,320
ground level, get out of the gym
and actually develop practical 

922
00:58:29,320 --> 00:58:33,000
skills, do do stuff that does 
that does rebuild from the 

923
00:58:33,000 --> 00:58:36,280
ground up family, community and 
and then we and then we do have 

924
00:58:36,800 --> 00:58:39,880
a a proper British society. 
All right, well, look, this is 

925
00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:43,040
this is sorry, I just want to 
jump in here because this is a 

926
00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:46,400
vital point, Charles, because, 
you know, Brian was talking 

927
00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:52,440
about the the fact that, that at
the, at the Hope Festival during

928
00:58:52,520 --> 00:58:56,840
his presentation, he was talking
about the fact that so many 

929
00:58:56,840 --> 00:58:59,400
churches are now having to share
a single vicar. 

930
00:58:59,400 --> 00:59:01,680
And, and it doesn't, it's not 
just Church of England, it's all

931
00:59:01,680 --> 00:59:03,800
denominations that are having 
this, this problem. 

932
00:59:03,800 --> 00:59:07,240
And part of the reason for that 
is there's been such a rejection

933
00:59:07,240 --> 00:59:11,160
of the church, but the church 
was a core part of of community.

934
00:59:11,160 --> 00:59:14,240
It was a core part of what it 
what it was to be British. 

935
00:59:14,680 --> 00:59:18,400
But this, the point I want to 
make here is this again comes 

936
00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:24,480
back to who is the enemy and 
what we have seen the systematic

937
00:59:26,160 --> 00:59:31,440
destruction of the idea of, of 
Englishness, of Britishness, 

938
00:59:31,720 --> 00:59:33,880
Scottishness, Welshness, 
whatever it is, we've seen the 

939
00:59:33,880 --> 00:59:37,640
systematic destruction of what 
it is to be any of those things 

940
00:59:38,440 --> 00:59:42,840
by the state propaganda machine 
for the last 60 years, right? 

941
00:59:42,840 --> 00:59:45,520
And and we have to a large 
degree fallen for it. 

942
00:59:45,520 --> 00:59:47,960
Part of this is driven 
economically, part of it's 

943
00:59:47,960 --> 00:59:52,040
driven by the kind of so called 
culture that we're pumped that 

944
00:59:52,040 --> 00:59:54,200
are, that's pumped in our brains
through the television. 

945
00:59:56,480 --> 01:00:02,520
And, and, and so as a result, 
the British nation, the English 

946
01:00:02,520 --> 01:00:05,760
nation, the Welsh nation, the 
Scottish nation, they're weak, 

947
01:00:06,320 --> 01:00:08,560
they have been weak. 
This, this has happened because 

948
01:00:08,560 --> 01:00:12,040
we have been weak as, as a 
nation, I'm not talking about 

949
01:00:12,040 --> 01:00:15,120
the state here, but as a nation,
as a cohesive nation. 

950
01:00:16,040 --> 01:00:20,000
And you know, the, the fact that
we have had immigration for the 

951
01:00:20,000 --> 01:00:23,680
last 40 of years, 40 years 
should not have mattered. 2 

952
01:00:23,680 --> 01:00:27,320
hoods. 
If we had a strong cultural base

953
01:00:27,360 --> 01:00:30,160
and strength in our own 
communities and strength in our,

954
01:00:30,160 --> 01:00:34,560
but we, we allowed ourselves to 
be psychologically manipulated 

955
01:00:34,640 --> 01:00:38,160
over the last, through 
propaganda over the last 40 or 

956
01:00:38,160 --> 01:00:42,680
50 years to the point where the,
the fact that we've had 

957
01:00:42,680 --> 01:00:45,680
immigration into this country 
has made a significant 

958
01:00:45,680 --> 01:00:48,120
difference to how this country 
is. 

959
01:00:48,960 --> 01:00:53,320
And you know, it, it, it always 
comes back to, to ourselves in a

960
01:00:53,320 --> 01:00:55,800
sense. 
But the point I'm trying to make

961
01:00:55,800 --> 01:00:58,880
here is who is the enemy and all
this? 

962
01:00:58,880 --> 01:01:02,120
And where does our focus need to
be when we're considering the 

963
01:01:02,120 --> 01:01:06,320
changes that need to be made? 
And, you know, we've got to 

964
01:01:06,320 --> 01:01:08,360
recognise what has been done to 
us. 

965
01:01:09,880 --> 01:01:15,040
That is actually a very powerful
point on which to to end our our

966
01:01:15,040 --> 01:01:18,280
discussion. 
I don't think it's anything I 

967
01:01:18,280 --> 01:01:20,600
can add to that. 
Charles, do you agree? 

968
01:01:21,680 --> 01:01:24,120
I agree that I would not want to
add anything to it. 

969
01:01:24,120 --> 01:01:26,560
No, I think it's exactly the 
right note to to finish on. 

970
01:01:26,960 --> 01:01:28,600
Brilliant. 
All right. 

971
01:01:28,600 --> 01:01:31,800
On that note, Charles, you're 
going to be away for a little 

972
01:01:31,800 --> 01:01:35,640
bit, so the next few chats will 
be just you and me. 

973
01:01:35,640 --> 01:01:39,120
Mike, Sorry about that. 
Yeah, I'm sorry about that too. 

974
01:01:42,680 --> 01:01:44,840
All right, guys, I'll catch you.
Catch you soon.