Hello everyone, this is Diane Rasmussen Makati from UK column.
I'm delighted to be joined by Heather McKee who is the
convener of the Student Academics for Academic Freedom
group. We are both part of Academics
for Academic Freedom. I am a member of the committee
in Edinburgh that incorporates for Edinburgh universities who
are fighting really, really hard to maintain some semblance of
academic freedom in our universities throughout the UK.
Because I'm very afraid to say that there really isn't very
much left at all and everything's continuing to work
against us. But I'm really, really happy
that there has been a student group that has started up that
is starting to work in this direction.
So with that, Heather, I'd like to bring you in.
Could you maybe say a little bit about yourself and and what made
you decide to start to get involved in this group as a
student? Yeah, no problem at all.
Diane, it's lovely to join you today as well.
Yeah, so I'm a student. I'm a mature student.
I do my studies part time. I'm currently completing a
master's in psychology at the University of Glasgow.
And it was this year, well maybe before last year really, that I
was feeling a bit frustrated around what was happening at
university and my own university.
But I'm just generally speaking to other students, there was a
kind of lack of ability to kind of use your free speech to, you
know, have to raise kind of more contentious issues which aren't
really contentious, but to kind of voice your kind of different
opinion if you like. And that kind of frustration
just really got to the point where I contacted Dennis, who is
obviously the director of AFAF and said, do you have a student
section of AFAF? Because I'd really like to join
and Dennis said we're, we're doing, we kind of had tried to
get something like that going before.
But obviously with students, you tend to do your couple of years
and you move on and that's fair. So I said, well, would you mind
if I give it a crack and try and restart it again, see if I can
get some more students, see if I can kind of create a consistent
line of students really that are willing to kind of keep this
going. And really that's where it came
from. So in May this year, we kind of
launched it back out and since then it's, it's done really
well. It's, it's grown really quite,
quite sizeable on, on X on Twitter.
We're now over, I think 1700 followers.
We're well into double digit figures of actual members.
And again, we've, we vary from 18 years of age right up, you
know, in terms of student ages, in terms of different sexes, in
terms of different studies. You know, we have humanities
with science, myself and psychology, for instance.
So we have a real broad spectrum of students, which is great.
And there's a real first, I think that's coming out from
students I speak to and students in the group to to have this
free speech and academic freedom come back to universities in the
UK and and in Ireland. So, yeah, so that's really the
kind of history of how Safa kind of started back up again and and
really where we are today. How did you find out about AFAF
in the 1st place? It's not something that gets
terribly public throughout most universities in my experience.
No. So it was on X, it was on
Twitter that I find it because I am a free speech advocate
myself. I can't remember how I stumbled
across it, but I remember just following it and seeing like
being spoken about and obviously being at university, I was quite
interested in the fact that many academics and obviously were
some well known academics were getting cancelled or you know,
even visitors to kind of universities to speak were
getting cancelled. And so it was, it was very well
known to me. The problems, if you like the X
was definitely the one that kind of showed me that there there
was organisations fighting for free speech and academic freedom
and universities and really that's where it came from and
just a kind of, I love a challenge.
I can't help myself. So it was very much like reach
out to to AFAF and see what we could do.
Academics for academic freedom is definitely we're facing a
challenge for sure and we need to keep working and and doing
everything that we can and continuing to recruit students.
But I think that you said before that your goal is to get one
student in every university in the UK, Is that correct?
Yes. So at the AFAF conference that
we had, it was a few weeks ago now, I set a challenge out
really to, to SAFAF members, also to AFAF members to say, you
know, let's get at least one student and Safa and each
university throughout the UK and in Ireland.
And really I put the challenge out to academics to say, please
stand up. We need you to stand up for free
speech. We need you to be visible and
universities for students to feel comfortable, to be able to
know that there's, there's someone there advocating for
free speech. So that was the challenge that
we put out and, you know, really what we're looking to do from
2025 is really hit the ground running with that and start
doing some real, you know, on campus events, you know, start
to put the word out much more and really just make much more
of a noise. And we have had the chance to
obviously just building up the membership base over the past
few months. So 2025 is going to be a really
fun, I think, and challenging year for academics and for
students. Yeah, I, I think so as well.
I'd like to talk a little bit about the conference.
We were both there back in November 2024.
I, I think it was, Well, for me it was a very important day
because you know, the story of my own cancellation because
Dennis Hayes asked me to give a talk there as well, which I have
to say felt very motivating, positive, uplifting, despite the
fact that, as I believe some people said on the day, we
really shouldn't have to be here in the 1st place, but we are.
And it was good to kind of all be together.
It actually, the student talk was one of the highlights of the
day for me because it's so important.
And I'm really happy to see that younger people are, are getting
involved in that. And I think that one of the
points that you made that was really essential is that
academics need to be supporting the students because that's,
that's our responsibility, because you are our
responsibility as, as our students.
And, and that's something that I, I think we need to maybe look
at unpacking a little bit because as you said, I remember
you saying at the conference, or maybe it was one of your
colleagues saying, it feels like we're living in 1984 at
university now, which was obviously the opposite of what
we're supposed to be. And I don't really quite
understand at this point what we can do because this is something
that we need to work out. Do you think that students are
afraid because they see their lectures being afraid?
Or do you think it's just like the entire social political
climate going on in the UK right now or what?
What do you think it is the fear it is that they need to face to
be able to feel safe to say what they want to say in in
universities? Yeah, it's a good question and I
think it's quite multifaceted the answer.
So I, I think from experience and having spoken to very solid
students, you know, going to university is a real change for
many young people. You know, especially if you're
going in, it's your first year, you're you're 1819, you're an
undergrad, you know, and you and you're maybe living away from
home as well, you know, So it's a very much a brand new
experience for you. And you're there also to make
friends and, you know, and to meet other people.
And the problem with that is that you don't want to step out
of your friendship group necessarily, you know, finding
your friendship groups particularly difficult initially
as well. But if you if you're being
taught that one point of view as the truth, and that's the same
point of view that has to be kind of shared amongst that
group of people, it's much easier to go along with that
than it is to go against that kind of thought process, if you
like. And then what's also happening,
another aspect is that we're seeing a lot of activist kind of
lecturers and universities as well, you know, so they are
fairly much putting forward their, their views as being the
truth. You know, the one view that has
to be kind of be adopted unfold not it should be much more of a
case of, Oh yeah, OK, you have a, you have a view, you know,
let's discuss it. Let's, let's discuss what that
view is. Let's, you know, break it down.
That's the whole point of going to universities to, to, you
know, get your critical thinking skills in place, you know, to
discuss and debate. And I think so, I think it's a,
there's a, there's a social aspect to it that if you step
out of that group, you know, out of that group, think if you
like, you can certainly be, you know, almost ostracised, you
know, and treated as a leper, to be honest.
And that's never, that's not enjoyable for any pet anybody,
never mind a young person at 1819, you know, who's, who's
just starting to go out and to do their studies.
And then you've got the kind of in the in the, the seminars and
in the lecture theatres, where again, if you're going against a
tide of a maybe 100 people in that lecture theatre, you know,
what you think may be going against the the tide, you know,
going against the Fort, you feel very alone.
You know, and, and I think that's one thing that Saffaf is
trying to do is to create this, this basis of you're not alone.
There are very much like minded other students and academics who
who believe it doesn't matter what your view as you should be
able to voice that view. You know, obviously we find
reason, there's certain laws that we have to abide by, but,
you know, free expression and diversity of thought really
needs to be pushed much more. So I think, yeah, there's the
it's it's very difficult for students these days to be able
to do that without feeling that they may be attacked from their
peers or even from the academics, you know, that are
supposed to be teaching them to think critically, you know,
rather than to to just go along a group think pathway.
Yeah, I heard from a student who, well, someone who wanted to
become a student in Auk University and do a PhD.
And this was something to look at this sort of the the
sexualization of children in school curriculum.
And This is why I heard about it, because they've seen my
coverage on UK column about these these issues and libraries
and education. And this individual, it got an
interview for a, a place for a PhD.
And when they got to the interview, they were told by the
potential supervisors that they were pro, pro trans.
Do you want to say that? And so if they did anything in
their research or wanted to do anything in their research that
was against that particular, I'll say the trans agenda, the
LGBT agenda, that they would not be agreed to be their
supervisors, only if they would, they would stay on the the sort
of the pro trans side and that anything else that they said or
wanted to research would be considered transphobic.
So as a result, this person was not able to get in to do the PhD
at their chosen university. And and this is where we're
seeing these activists like you're saying, these issues
around free speech, free debate, free expression.
We've seen the high profile cases, we've seen Professor Joe
Phoenix, we've seen Kathleen Stock, we've seen well, myself,
all these things for gender critical views and these things
that we've all encountered when I think back to my own
university training. And I guess leads to my next
question for you is when I did my degrees, which was well, I
finished my PhD in 2006. At that point, we were told to
ask whatever questions we wanted to ask, right?
It was all about what do you want to know?
What do you want to explore? And it was part of our job to
come up with our own questions. It wasn't the job of the
universities or of the our lecturers or supervisors to tell
us what we could or couldn't study.
And I'm really surprised by how quickly this has changed.
Right, so we've got 18 years since I finished my PhD,
Completely different landscape since I've been a full time
academic. And I guess since you said, as
you all said, you are a mature student and you certainly don't
have to disclose your age or how long ago you started university,
but did you do your undergrads a long time ago or more recently?
And I'm just wondering if you've seen any changes since you
started studying to now when you're doing your master's?
Yes, absolutely. So I am, I'm in my 40s now, I'm
43. So I, and I'm freely admit that
I don't mind at all. I did my undergrad when I was 18
and I and so then I, I've had a gap of about 20 odd years of,
of, of not having traditional education.
If you like, I've been doing it through, you know,
qualifications through my work. Yeah.
The the difference is quite insane to me, to be honest,
because when I went to university it was really a shock
to the system. Going to university at 18, you
were very much left alone almost to to go and find your own way
and to formulate ideas, come back.
You know you would have your regular catch ups with
lecturers, but you it was very much a case of you are on your
own. You have to come up with these
ideas. You have to come forward,
particularly as you go through the years.
You know, when you get into what have you, where you do need to
use your own critical thinking and you do need to come up with
with questions and and challenges.
Now I'm seeing do even doing the masters that you're almost spoon
fed to a certain degree. Now I'm slightly different in
that I do mine online, so there's less of me being in a in
a lecture hall or on campus. But from the the other students
that I'm speaking to that are doing their undergraduate
courses now, you know, there's this aspect of safety ISM that
has come about in universities that now, you know, these young
adults are being treated almost like children, you know, and
they're not, they're young adults.
You know, if you, if you can get your grades and you can get into
university, you're a young adult and they're not being treated
that way. They're being treated with, you
know, safe spaces, you know, trigger warnings, you know,
things that you just think this is, this is not what you should
be doing with young adults. You know, they're there to
learn. They should be getting
challenged. They should be feeling, you
know, this is a totally different situation.
You know, they've got to think for themselves.
They've got to come up with these questions.
And that's not happening. What we're seeing a lot of is
we've seen a lot of, you know, dissertations or courseworks
being pushed in a, you know, a direction not open to having
different diversity of thought, you know, having different
viewpoints. It's very much like this is what
we want you to do. So you have to go down that
track and, you know, and we see that from the questions posed by
some, you know, courses, You know, we've seen the literally
at one of the universities, an engineering course is, you know,
again, asking students to to design and develop a safe space
for LGBTQ plus, you know, people.
I mean, it's engineering. I don't quite understand that,
you know, and, and we've got a range of students who come from
multiple different backgrounds, you know, with various different
relig, religious reviews, cultural, you know, norms that
that would feel uncomfortable doing that, you know, and
pushing back against that. And I think, you know, we talk
about the gender kind of issue. It's not even just about that.
It's about impacting on free speech.
You know, the gender issue is quite prominent because it has
impacted on, you know, a lot of academics, free speech, you
know, such as Kathleen Stop, Joe Phoenix, but there's also other,
you know, kind of critical social justice ideologies which
exist. You know, I've seen it from
critical race theories, for instance, being taught in
psychology to clinical psychologists, as if that's the
be on end all the truth. And, you know, for a lot of,
we've got a few members, young white males, they feel
absolutely ostracised, you know, and, and, and made to feel
guilty for something that they cannot and have no power over,
which is how they were born, you know, So it's, it's, it's kind
of eat into every single kind of aspect of university life at the
moment. And it's, it's really difficult
for students to, to hold a different view, you know, and,
and not feel ostracised. Yeah, I, I'm worried
particularly well for all of you.
But when I think about the 18 year olds and what their
experience has been like, you know, first of all, they went
through high school during COVID when they should have been
having a little bit more normal high school life, but they were
locked away in their rooms and having class on Zoom.
And now they're in university and now they can't say anything.
And now they're probably still scared because I would imagine
that the COVID era for young people would be particularly
scary, not really understanding the world, not having lived long
enough to think back what what it was like to be an adult
before you had to do all this ridiculous stuff that they tried
to make us do. And, and then now they're in a
place where they can't speak, they can't say anything.
And, and, and sometimes I wonder about that, if that COVID period
of sort of growing up and being an adolescent and that time when
you, the government was so called protecting us, but really
they were just controlling us. But do you think that maybe that
experience now has LED them to feel more like, well, this is
how the world is because they've never known anything else?
I I don't know how much contact you have with the the younger
students, but I'm I'm just wondering if that experience has
made them more accepting now of of how things are.
Yeah, I, I think so. I mean, it's, it's definitely a
different kind of world that, you know, most of these students
are now at university, have gone through, they haven't had the
normal course of being a teenager, if you like, you know,
and growing up. And when you go to university,
you know, one of the, one of the joys of going to university is
to make friends and to enjoy yourself and to say stupid
things and not be fearful that what you've said in the student
union the night before isn't going to come back and haunt you
the next day in a lecture hall, for instance.
And, you know, I think one of the key things that we are
finding and, and one of the, one of the things we're pushing back
on is, is that ability to say something stupid, you know, and
to say, you know, something that that is not going to haunt you
for the rest of your life because it shouldn't, you know,
you're at university. Shouldn't.
Unions are a really good example of where it's become actually
extremely difficult for students to, to go and, and to be able to
speak and have a different opinion.
You know, I remember my days going to the student union, you
know, after, I mean, going maybe a few nights through that week
because that's what students do. And, you know, you might, you
might have a few drinks, you might say something stupid.
You, you have a, a joke and a laugh and you, you'll disagree
with each other because, you know, inevitably politics might
come up. So you have different views on
politics, you know, and you and you have a good discussion and
it's all fine because you know that the next day or most of
it's going to be it's, it's nothing.
It's just a discussion. It's a talking point.
But what we're seeing now is that, you know, something that
can happen the night before 11 world slap, you know, something
that's just very innocent can suddenly become such a big
overblown thing. And, you know, it can really
haunt a lot of students. You know, we've seen that on
campuses where students are, you know, they're literally bullied
into submission, you know, because they've said something
off the cuff, you know, the night before and the student
union. And student unions are one of
the areas that I think we, we will kind of focus on and push,
push on for SAF next year because, you know, the, the
Higher education Freedom of Speech Act, which should have
come into place, would have put duties on student unions to, to,
to make sure they had academic freedom and those, and that's
not not happened. And we see student unions time
and time again cancelling speakers, you know, not not
wanting to to do events because it's not the group think it's
not this the standard accepted, you know, kind of, you know, you
know, issue of the day that everybody accepts, you know,
when there's ever a kind of slightly different opinion, they
will shut it down. And we're seeing them do that
with speakers coming to to events.
We've seen them doing it with academics.
They do it with students as well.
You know, you cannot do something that they don't
approve of, which is insanity to me because student unions are
for students. That's the whole point, you
know, But they've been kind of captured as well.
So it's, yeah, there's a lot of shouldn't, should go and have
fun at university and learn. Yes, absolutely.
But there's this fear factor now that's that's crept in, which is
a real, real sad state of affairs.
Yeah, I, I started university in 1993 and I, there's lots of
things that I did in 1993 and the, the, the few years after
that that I'm really happy that there was no social media or
substantial Internet at the time to record any of it.
And it's in the past, which is where it needs to stay.
But I think that should be true for everyone to have those
experiences when they're younger.
And you know, there's some things in particular that I
remember about, especially when I'm thinking back to my
undergrad years at my university, which was the
University of North Texas. We had a lot of political
events, but they were on, but on sort of all sides of the
political spectrum. And so even back then I was, I
was interested in active in politics.
And so I would go to certain speeches, whether or not I
agreed with them. And that was kind of the whole
point was that, you know, then you would go for a drink after
and have your discussion about what they said.
But you didn't, you didn't report anybody.
You didn't file complaints. You didn't try to ruin
somebody's education over it. You just kind of went on and
said, OK, I don't agree with you.
And, and that would be the end of it.
It was never this, oh, you know, you're going to be complained
about. I'm going to file a grievance.
You need to be disciplined. You need to be thrown out your
programme because you don't agree with me, which is the
climate we're in now. And you also have the right to
be offensive. I remember we had this
particular area on my campus with that was called the free
speech area, literally labelled that the whole campus was free
speech. But this was like, if you want
to have a, a sort of a demonstration or something.
And so a couple of times a year, these people that were very
active in pro life, supporting pro life activism and so on,
they would bring these huge photographs of aborted foetuses
and you'd see the the actual remains.
They were horrible. They were disgusting.
I personally avoided it because I just didn't like to see them.
And but they had a point they wanted to make and that's how
they were making an impact. But nowadays everyone is so
overly sensitive that you can't even have like an exhibit.
I know a colleague who's a professor at another UK
university who's talked about how students won't go into
museums. His students in particular won't
go into the university's museums because there's offensive
material that because it's considered to be colonialist or
anti whatever, anti racist, I guess.
But it, you know, back, you know, just 30 years ago or even
20 years ago when I was doing my postgraduate degrees, you would
have been required to do that because you were supposed to
feel uncomfortable at times. And but now this, the sheltering
of students from, you know, what may or may not be true for them,
what they may or may not believe in is just something that
they're just putting off to one side and pretending that it
doesn't exist. And as you say, that's a really,
really important thing in universities.
I, I know of some particular examples from the University of
Glasgow museums, but I think it's the Interior Museum.
I don't know if you know anything about that, what
they've done there with some of their agenda.
If you want, if you don't want that, I'd love to hear you talk
about it a little bit. So that's your university.
I don't know of that particular, but there, there I certainly
know of some issues around obviously the Hunterian has, you
know, particular exhibits which may be uncomfortable for anybody
to look at, you know, and that's, that's a human reaction,
you know, looking at foetuses, for instance, you know, these
these are things that are not pleasant to look at, but they
they were, they served a purpose because they were for science,
you know, and and they were studied and we've made so many
advances off the back of of these types of things.
I mean, the the the thing with the, the kind of pro pro life, I
mean, yes, absolutely. It's, it's unpleasant to see,
but you do, you do not have a right to be offended.
You know, in this country you can avoid it.
You can choose not to be offended by, by not going to
there. Whereas what's happening now is
that people are being offended by and therefore everybody must
not go to it. You know, every, it must be
cancelled. You know, for instance, the, the
University of Berlin, I think is, or one of the universities
in Berlin at the moment has refused to, to have a Holocaust
display at the university. I can't think of anything more
ridiculous in my life than a university in Berlin.
And, and the reason being is that it would make some people
uncomfortable, you know, and, and yes, it should make you
uncomfortable. The Holocaust was horrific.
You should have a physical and emotional reaction to something
like that. And I think that's the the key.
But as, again, we talk about decolonization, you know,
University of Glasgow, for instance, is quite big on
decolonization. You know, we cannot escape our
past. We cannot escape our history.
Even if we look at it now and think that was wrong, we should
never have done that. These are different times.
You know, we cannot look at what happened in history with the
same glasses that we have on today.
You know, that's impossible. What's happened in the past has
LED us to where we are today. We know that slavery is bad, you
know, we, we understand that these things should not have
happened, but they did, you know, and there was a different
time and there was a different mentality to that.
And actually, what would be better rather than decolonizing
the curriculum is to learn from it.
You know, don't hide the history, teach the history, you
know, teach us what was bad. Make us think, you know, make us
think. Was that bad?
Was that good? What has led to this now?
You know, where are we in, in terms of, of what we do now?
And there's this idea of trying to kind of rob out the history
that we have had as a country, as a people, because it's
uncomfortable to some who, who attend university or to some
other people. And that's, that's ridiculous.
You know, we, we cannot have an atmosphere on university and
universities where because some people are uncomfortable,
everyone else is not allowed to go and experience the, you know,
the exhibit or the, you know, the the art, the art gallery
showing a particular type of, of annual and artist work has been
cancelled, for instance. So, yeah, I think, I think
there's that element of you do not have the right to be
offended. And that needs to come across in
universities much more than I think it does now.
You know, you can be offended. Absolutely.
You just don't have the right to to say that nobody else can go
and see these things. That's that's where I think SAFF
is pushing back. You know, we have to say that's
fine, but that doesn't impact on everything else.
You know it can't impact on everything else.
Yeah. And the interesting thing is
decolonization is one of the things that I have.
It's been part of my larger cancellation because I spoke out
against it, particularly in libraries, because that's my, my
background is in librarianship. And, and the ironic thing about
it is that in particular, I spoke out against decolonization
in Scotland because this, we are in the home of the Scottish
Enlightenment, right? So many amazing things happened
during that time period that contributed to human knowledge
and, and development and civilization as we know it in so
many ways. And what I don't understand
about about it here in the UK is that it, that you, this is your,
this is your native home. If you are born here, if you are
British, if you're Scottish, if you're English, if you're Welsh,
if you're that is this is your homeless.
So you're basically if you're cancelling the history that is
said to be racist, whatever colonialism, that is part of
your history. And all of us have bad parts in
our history in America, we have bad parts in our history, but we
can't change it. Like you said, we have to learn
from it. And what I was trying to do was
actually complement the, the, the background in Scotland of,
of all of the amazing work that has been done here in our
ancient universities in the UK. But for some reason it, that was
one of the things that I have been in trouble for discipline
for, because I was trying to stand up for this country that I
moved over here to work in the universities here.
But for some reason that led to part of my cancellation.
It's, it's, it's, so it's very strange, but I think that it,
it's being taught. So this is something that
students should be aware of as well, is that new lecturers are
being taught decolonization and their training.
So I'm not sure how many people are aware of this or even
students know. But when you become a lecturer
and or, or even a PhD student or postdoc with any teaching
responsibilities, you have to do basically what's called a PG
cert, or in my case, I got the diploma in learning about
teaching and learning in AUK system.
Right. And one of the things that that
you usually would have to do is learn how to supervise students,
learn how to conduct a Viva, learn how to create curriculum,
learn what, what should be on a reading list.
How can you, how can you provide support to your students?
All these different like practical things that you need
to know. But part of the curriculum now
through what's called the advanced HE, which gives the
credential teaching credentials for UK lectures, is that
decolonizing the curriculum is actually part of the
requirements. And even when I went through it
when I first moved to the UK, which was 10 years ago, we
didn't have to learn decolonization.
We learned the practical parts that you actually need to know.
But that is now part of what is required to learn to get your PG
cert so that you have your teaching qualification.
So it's actually built into the structure.
So either people are trying to go back and learn it if they
didn't learn already, but the new lectures are being presented
with it and they have to learn it to be able to pass, to get
their credential. So that's that's how captured
it's become the the accrediting body for teaching qualifications
now requires it. Yeah, and I would say that this
is kind of endemic of, of what's happening in universities, full
stop. You know, with EDI for instance,
you know, it's, it's, it's, it's part of that whole EDI process,
you know, and we see, you know, whether it's whether it's
decolonizing the curriculum or whether it's making safe spaces
or, or, or really whatever. I mean, if I look at some of
the, the kind of key EDI initiatives of which are pushed
in universities, a Fina Swan for instance, is a really perfect
example of that. And most universities, certainly
of a particular standard have have adopted a Fina Swan.
Now that standard itself, when it first started, was designed
to get more women into STEM courses and also into academia
for STEM. So, and now, now we're faced
with no longer being for women. That can be for anybody who
identifies as a woman. So anybody and you know, and,
and for universities, it costs a lot of money to get an, an
Athena SWAN accreditation, a lot of money and it costs a lot of
time. And at that time comes from the,
the lecturers and professors who have to sign up to do it.
And various departments can do it or the university can do it.
But it's years in the making to get an award for a Fenus 1,
which I would question, is it worthwhile?
Because it's not actually doing what I initially set out to do
in the 1st place. And, and yes, as actually
pushing a kind of ideology into the universities and to
lecturers and to departments, which is then getting pushed
down into the students is taught as kind of, you know, part and
parcel of your course, which I, I disagree with.
I'm, I'm a woman, I'm all for advancing women and women in
STEM, but when you open the category of women up to to
include men, you've lost that. Then you no longer have that.
You know you, that's not your driving factor anymore.
That's not your goal. What it is now is just a case of
you do this. It's a tick box exercise, a very
long, a very expensive tick box exercise for universities, which
as we know, they're extremely cash strapped at the moment.
I question spending 10s of thousands of pounds on an award
which does nothing other than add a symbol to your to your
website, when that money could be getting better spent on
students, you know, on, on, on providing the key information
men, even mental health services for students improving that.
We talked about COVID and how that's impacted on student
mental health. You know, directing that money
to where I actually think it really should be going would be
much better time spent. But I think this is a problem
with EDI is that once it gets in there, it becomes standard
practise. And nobody, nobody is willing to
question and stand up and say, I think this is a waste of money
in all honesty. And I think the university
resources could be much better spent.
And we need people to start doing that.
You know, we need people to push back and say, sorry, this is a
waste of money. This is not going to do us any
good. But until we do that, we're
stuck with this EDI and you kind of ideology, if you like, and
and universities. Yeah.
And you know, and it doesn't help us as women who, you know,
if we think back to even just to the generation before our
generation, right, where women have to work so hard to get to
where they are. I've I've heard, I heard a
speech once from a woman in in my fields.
She wrote a speech that I maybe I will link to it in the in the
write up for this interview. Her name is Professor Marcia
Bates from my field. And she was a pioneering woman
to and she told her story when she got this high award and one
of our professional societies. And she gave a speech that
brought me to tears because she talked about how much harder she
had to work as a woman when she was coming up through academia
in sort of the 1970s to work, to work twice as hard, to do twice
as much teaching, to do twice as much admin, because women are
expected to do those things. And how much more she had to
publish. And, and she retired early
because she got bringed out because she worked so hard.
And I think back to her and I think, well, she's worked that
hard to pave the way for women of my generation.
And then maybe the ones after mine to to, you know, may have
things be a bit easier than they were back then.
But all of this ideology is actually, in my opinion, rolling
women's, women's opportunities backwards a bit, right.
So we now, we now have to allow the non binary people and the
those who identify as us into the place where we've worked so
hard and women before us worked so hard to get there.
And people don't see it that way.
It's it's very, very regressive. Very that that's the right word
that basically we're saying, well, just because you believe
this way or you think this way, or you like a certain colour,
then you are going to change to be a woman or whatever it is.
It, it really it, it's very demeaning to us as women and for
the things that we still have to fight against that when we're
talking about safe spaces. I, you know, it bothers me
because I'm, I'm very public about saying that I was raped at
university when I was 19 and there was nothing available for
me to help me. Nobody believed me.
Nobody helped me. And when we talked about safe
spaces would be here, that people are filing complaints and
trying to end careers and educations because someone said
the wrong word. Compared to the things that I
actually experienced and had to fight through to get to even to
finish my degree with just a bit of my sanity left by the end of
it. And then all the years it took
for me to try to recover. It actually I think discounts
the experiences of those of us who have actually been through
traumatic events that now someone can say their own word
and that's that's it for that person.
They need a safe space. They can't cope.
It it, it really discounts the true, the true traumas that
people go through, I think. And it's it's dangerous for that
reason as well. Yeah, I'd agree.
I mean, I think it, it, it kind of desensitises us all to what
is actually the real, you know, issues.
I mean, I think rape on on universities campuses, it's
never been appropriately dealt with.
You know, it's still an issue. You know, they still, we still
hear reports every so often of, of young women, for instance,
committing suicide, you know, even because of, of what's going
on. And they haven't had any support
at all. Yeah.
If you feel offended by someone's viewpoint, you can
raise a grievance. You can be, you know, almost
wrapped in cotton wool because you've been, you've been hurt by
some words, which is just, you know, again, it just a beggars
belief to be fair. And you know, when I look at
some of these EDI initiatives, I mean a Venus one.
And again, we'll provide you with a link to the Safa sub
stack. We've, we've done, you know,
pieces on the fact that actually it hasn't made zero difference
to the amount of women in academia that's come in, you
know, over the past six many years it's been running for
it's, it's actually made us no material difference to the
amount of women that are in STEM and academia.
You know, the, the, the gender pay gap still exists.
You know, there's still a limited amount of senior women
in those in those areas. So actually, you know, what it's
intended to do is actually not doing that at all.
You know, what we're doing is we're focusing on one, I think
heart works and you know, heart feelings rather than the key
issues of actually, are we really doing the right things by
students such as are we providing support when these
incidents happen on campus? You know, are we really making
sure that mentally well, you know, in terms of of being able
to do the course? First of all, you know, as you
say, coming from COVID, walked away for two years pretty much,
you know, and suddenly you're out and you know.
Where's the support there? You know, again, I, I, I
question the, the kind of leadership really of these
universities and what faeces are doing about it.
You know, we, I, I don't think faeces are being held to account
enough for what's happening on their campuses when it comes to
students. Yeah, and, and, you know, we
hear things about the, the gender pay gap and, and, and
academia and it's, it's, it's also issues of promotion as
well, because I actually have statistics that I've that I've
found that say, you know, I, I, I achieved the title of full
professor in my field, but only. So only 10% of people who become
academics get promoted to professor and only 10% of
professors are women as of right now.
And so that just it just goes to show that despite all the hard
work that, you know, baby boomers did and, and women
before us, so that me considering myself Generation X,
it's sort of the Generation F the baby boomers, we're still
fighting the same things just as hard as or, you know, it's still
just as difficult, maybe not as much as the what the first
pioneers that started it for us. And and that you're right, the
issues with the Athena Swan, I had to do a little bits and
pieces of that previously. It just did not really address
the issues. It, it didn't, it didn't change
anything. It was all about, from my
perspective anyway, a lot of ticking boxes, like you said, a
lot of record keeping, a lot of well, you know, doing surveys,
which were obviously, if they do these staff surveys and say,
well, do you feel that you're treated equally?
Am I going to answer that honestly?
No, because there aren't enough women in my fields or in my
department or in my university that I'll be identified.
They will figure out, oh, it's anonymous.
No, it's not anonymous. They will find you and they will
hound you if you say no. I don't feel like I'm being
treated equally. Right.
So there's there's still a lot of risk involved in answering
those because they obviously want the accreditation, but it's
if the women were actually honest in a lot of the
situations, they wouldn't receive it.
Absolutely. And I think, you know, again, as
this we all know, I mean, I, I study psychology, I know how
surveys work. You know, you, you send it out,
you get a small proportion of people that reply.
Those people that reply are normally motivated to reply, you
know, everybody else who looks at or think, you know, if you're
not motivated, you won't do it. You know, so you, you, you're,
you're getting it skewed towards one opinion again.
And, and this is what happens. And this is where, where
research actually is, is really difficult to do, you know, in
universities as well, because the only certain research is
getting published. You know, we're, we're seeing
that many PhD students either can't get a PhD started because
the, the, you know, again, nobody wants to supervise them.
You know, it's really difficult to get that getting.
So getting paid PhD opportunities is really
difficult, particularly when you want to, to look at things which
are, again, I will say controversial, but they're
really not controversial. You know, they're things related
to, you know, are the EDI practises working?
I think there was a recent paper that was published, I can't
remember who did it, but it kind of said EDI doesn't actually
work. You know, if anyone that has the
opposite effect, you know, and, and I think we see that and, and
you know, and young males coming up, for instance, you know, I
see that how how they're affected.
So I think it comes down to the fact that politics and
universities as and, and wider life very much in academia, you
know, where it's, it's all about you belonging to a particular
cohort, but it's actually, no, it's, it's all about your merit.
It's about what you bring to the table.
And, and I think we've stopped teaching that to students,
whether it's in schools, you know, straight up at the end of
the day, it should, it shouldn't be about the colour of your skin
or, or what sex you are or what culture you come from.
It should be how hard you work at university and how much you
put in personally to get that. And one of our students is
Shivan, who he wrote a sub stack recently about that, you know,
about the fact that, you know, there's incentives now, your
initiatives only directed towards a particular cohort of
people, you know, and, and, and, and that's a detriment to, to
the vast majority. And again, to bring in that the
best person for the job, you know, as, as, as a person that
works the hardest and, and studies the most.
And it's not about your colour of your skin.
It's not about what sex you are. It's about how hard you are and
how, and how you know, merit really.
And we've lost this idea of the merit kind of principle, if you
like, at university, which I think is really sad because
that's the whole point of going to university.
You did well enough to get into university.
Now you've got to prove yourself even more to get your degree.
But now it's all about identity politics.
And that's a real shame because it it disadvantages a lot of
very good students who who work very, very hard, don't get the
opportunities at the other end. Yeah.
And I think that's something. To remember as well as if we go
back to Martin Luther King, right, where he talked about
everyone being created equal and how we shouldn't judge people by
the colour of, of our skin. And you know, he was an
inspiration for the entire civil rights movements in America,
right? And, and, and again, it's
another, these are also still regressive policies in my
opinion, because we're going back to that.
It's just, you know, different groups or different.
And this whole issue of labels is all something that we
shouldn't even be really doing at all.
But that's, and it also seems to me that there is a kind of a
hierarchy of labels, right? So that there's certain labels
at the top who get the most priority and people at the
bottom. So let's say straight white men
are at the very bottom and then they're the ones now being
disadvantaged in favour of, let's say, you know, the
intersectionality of a trans black identifying male or
something, right? And and, or female, probably.
So those are things that really were going backwards and they
seem to think that they're being all progressive.
But really it, it seems to me just to be the opposite is, is
what's actually happening. And I don't know how long it's
going to take for people to realise that we have, that they
are putting themselves backwards with these ridiculous EDI
policies you mentioned also earlier, I wanted to make sure
to get this in a little bit, the Higher Education Freedom of
Speech Act. And of course that doesn't apply
to us in Scotland. It only applies to England and
Wales as it is written. I Abhishek gave us, I should say
his name, Professor Abhishek Saha is by saying his name
correctly. He did a really good, yeah, he
did a really good summary of the legislation at the AFAF
conference we had last month. I, I have, I, I have my hand out
that he passed out right here. But if you want to, if you know
the act and since this is your interview, if you maybe want to
summarise what's happened and, and where it's gone, if you want
to do that or, or I can do that if you don't know.
Yeah. So the the the higher education.
Freedom of Speech Act was due to come into force this year, but
Bridget Phillipson decided to to stop that six days before I was
due to come into force. And she did it not even by
announcing it in Parliament. She did it on a kind of memo, if
you like going out before Parliament stopped this this
educate this act had been debated to the cows come home.
Really, you know, it'd been years in the making by by people
like Abhishek who, you know, have have worked on it.
It was, it was had gone through the Commons and gone through the
House of Lords back and forward. Back and forward had been
watered down, you know, to you know, the tort had been removed.
It then been added back in. And yeah, so I had, I had
appropriate amount of time to be looked at, at Parliament and,
and it got passed and it became the Higher Education Freedom of
Speech Act 2023, which as you see doesn't cover Scotland, it
covers England and Wales. And and then it was stopped
abruptly from actually coming into force.
The excuse was that universities have can't handle the
administrative building of the ACT.
You know, the Office of Students for instance, had to develop a
complaints process which again, they had ample opportunity to
develop and bring into force before the ACT committee force,
which they didn't. You know, the cost element of
this I believe has been over exaggerated by, you know, the
education secretary. Universities are in a difficult
position financially, absolutely, but that's because
of their over reliance on foreign students fees coming in.
You know, they, they have, they have got to the stage now where
they, they, they got so reliant on that, that now that that's
not particularly coming in anymore, they're struggling to,
to meet the finances. You know that it, it was all
very much ready to see go and I don't think the ACT should be
watered down in the slightest. I think any concessions given to
this act coming in would be very disappointing.
You know, I think the tort has to be brought in for absolutely
sure because it's the only mechanism that we have to really
enforce and ensure that academic freedom and free speech on
campus is actually happening. I'm very much in favour of the
duties on student unions being brought in as a student myself
for the other student members that we have.
That has to again come into force.
You know, we have to hold people to account for this.
If you say that you are for free speech, you must be able to
prove you're for free speech. So I'm, you know, the, the, we,
we Abhishek has created a, a letter which we're all signing
at the moment, which hopefully you can link as well, Diane, to
the Education Secretary to say that we believe this act should
be brought in, should be brought in in full and it shouldn't be
delayed any further. And I think at last count, we
were edging up towards 500 signatures from a mix of
students, academics and, you know, and free speech
campaigners. So I think that's just shows you
the strength of the, the feeling that we need to bring back free
speech and academic freedom into, into universities.
I don't think I'm any different to any other person saying we
should not need to have an act to do this.
But we're in this position now where we need this act to come
in because it isn't, it's not happening organically.
We know it's not happening organically.
We've all been fighting for it for years, some absolutely more
than I have for for much longer, such as yourself, Diane, you
know, you've been fighting the fight for much longer than I
have. Unfortunately we do need the ACT
and and it can't be delayed any further and needs to come into
force and and we need to hold universities to account much
more. Yeah.
And I will just add to that that was.
A great summary, thank you. I just want to add to that that
as of October 2024, the last update is that the Free Speech
Union has put in an application to bring judicial review to the
proceedings of this act has been granted and a full hearing date
is currently scheduled for the 23rd of January 2025.
So I will definitely be watching for that when it happens right
at the same time as the. Well, it's three days after the
Trump inauguration, so we'll see what happens to the world at
that point. There could be a lot going on
towards the end of January there.
I just want to mention briefly the amazing work of your
colleague Connie Shaw. She has been quite an Internet
sensation recently. Do you want to say anything
about her briefly? Yeah, Connie's fantastic.
And, you know, and I think she's a credit to to herself first and
foremost. You know, she's a strong young
woman. She's a credit to her
university, even if they don't realise it.
She's a credit to SAFAF as well, you know, and she's fighting the
good fight. And, but I think also what I
would say is whilst Connie, Connie's done, done a fantastic
job of, I mean, she's very articulate and she speaks very
well. She just as a representative of
every other SAFAF member that we have, you know, who wants to
fight for free speech and academic freedom and, you know,
and, and hold, hold a certain viewpoint and not be penalised
for that viewpoint. You know, when she's going
through university and she's in her final year and you know,
this is, this is all very much quite scary as well.
You know, you're in your final year where you're looking at
dissertation, you're looking at getting your degree and get out
into the world. And you know, whether that's
further studies or into the workforce, she shouldn't have to
be going through this, You know, and I think I want to reiterate,
well, she's done a great job. And, you know, she's, she's
certainly, I think fantastic representative for SAFAF as
well. I really wish she had, she
wasn't having to go through this, you know, and I, I think
the first thing for me is always as a convener of SAFAF is always
to make sure that the students that are members of our, our
society, if you like our network are supported as fully as
possible, you know, and, and when they want to do these
things, I wish they didn't have to.
And really, I actually wish I didn't have to do this either.
I, I, you know, I think most of us wish we didn't have to do
these things. But the reality is if I don't
fight for it, then it means generations to come under me
won't be able to fight for it either, you know.
And I think, I think whilst a criticism we always get is that
it's older people fighting for free speech.
And I don't class myself as being particularly old.
Yeah. So what?
It's me fighting. I if I don't fight for it now,
it means that people coming down, the 18 year olds, the
Connies who are, you know, under 20, they're going to, they're
going to have to fight equally hard again, you know.
So I think taking a stand now, and that's what I will say kind
of almost to finish is please be brave.
You know, academics, please be brave, students, please be
brave. Come and speak to, to Safa.
We've got really exciting things planned for next year.
There's strength in numbers. You know, we're here to support
each other. It's not about doing it alone.
You know, Connie has the support of Safa.
She's got the support of Free Speech Union behind her, you
know, and, and, and many, many others.
I do wish she didn't have to do this.
I wish that her, you know, the LSR radio would have just let
her have her free expression and it's not bringing anybody in to
distribute at all. If anything, if they'd supported
her, they would have been more attractive to students who
believe in free speech and wanting to go and, you know, and
study at the university. Yeah.
So I would just say be brave, stand up, show other people that
you're there, you know, and. And by doing that, we will we
will gradually, hopefully turn the tide and.
And our universities in higher education.
Is there anything else that? UK call them viewers, members of
the public or even other academics can do to help to help
support you. But because I want to do what I
can. But if people see this and feel
inspired to do something, what would you like them to do?
Just start talking about it more.
Just literally start talking about it more.
Share it, share it. Why do, you know, share it with
other people? If you're, if you're seeing this
on X or whatever, share it with other people, you know, let them
know that there is an issue on, on universities on campus.
You know, that, that I think one of the things I would say is
that students always get a bad rap.
You know, where all the the kind of stuff around, you know, the
the war, for instance, you know, Israel, Gaza, Israel,
Palestinian conflict students are seen as these shouty, you
know, vocal, difficult people. Those are just a minority of
students. Those are the very vocal ones.
And what I would say is that the vast majority of students are
unfortunately self censoring, you know, at the moment because
they maybe hold a different opinion to other to other
students. So don't be put off and don't
think that every single student's this shouty, you know,
argumentative camping out in on on university nice loans, for
instance. It's that's not the case.
The vast majority of us are just trying to get our degrees
finished, are just trying to get a good grade.
I'm trying to have a good time at university and make friends
and have those friends, you know, hopefully for life.
But more than importantly than that, we're there to learn the
subject that we've paid money to go and learn.
So don't don't think that all students are the same.
We're very much not. We're very much diverse in our
thoughts. And yeah.
And just support us as much as you can by just being vocal in
your support. That's all we can ask, you know,
at this time. So and then when you see us
doing different events come along, you know, we're open to
everybody. You know, we want to have that
good debate and discussion and, and, and have everybody go away
thinking something, you know, just just thinking, oh, right,
OK, that's really interesting. That might not have changed my
mind completely, but I'm going to have a think about it now.
And I think that's what university is all about at the
end of the day. Absolutely.
And then and that. True diversity, not the
diversity that the EDI departments are trying to force
on us, but true diversity at university.
That's the real thing that we need to continue to promote that
you and I experienced when we were 18.
And I really want those days to to come back.
Thank you so much for your time today.
Heather, it's been really great to speak with you about this.
And I just want to say that I think the student a fast group
is fabulous and you guys are amazing and brave and I'm so
proud of what you're doing and and I will continue to support
you in any way possible. Is there any final thing that
you would like to add before we conclude?
No, just to say thank you, Diane, It's.
Been a pleasure to speak to you and I'm I'm really heartened I
will say as 43 year old women that I, we have a mixture of
ages and SAFAF, but I'm also very heartened the amount of
young people that are coming forward and want to join up.
So I don't think all is lost in universities.
I think we've got a real good, you know, mix of people coming
forward and, and starting to speak up and I, I think it can
only get better. So I, I'm very hopeful.
Whilst it might have sounded like maybe we weren't as hopeful
sometimes in the, on an interview here, actually, I'm,
I'm extremely positive about where we can go.
Me too. We just have to keep going.
And and not stop until we get there.
Again, thank you for your time. It's been lovely to have you as
a guest here on UK column and I will see you in my continued
activism in your direction over on X from here on out.
Thank you again. Thanks, Diane.