1 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:40,320 None. I have a very good friend who 2 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:44,720 emigrated to the UK few years ago and he sent me some videos. 3 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:46,800 Yesterday he went to the beach. Looks like you have great 4 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:51,280 weather at the moment. The weather has been very, very 5 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:53,520 pleasant. Yes, there are lots of people 6 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:58,360 who have suddenly decided that anything approaching 30°C means 7 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:02,480 death, but for the rest of us it's it's really pleasant. 8 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:06,120 I'm surprised about your beaches. 9 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:10,560 They are Seriously neat if if if that video is anything to go by. 10 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:14,240 Very clean. That's only on the surface. 11 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:18,520 Once you get into the water and you watch the stuff floating by 12 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:20,720 then, then that's that's another thing. 13 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:24,560 No, our our water companies are appalling at the moment for just 14 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:28,080 dumping raw sewage into places where people swim. 15 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:30,400 There's a problem everywhere though, isn't it? 16 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:37,000 Well, I don't know that it is quite to the same degree. 17 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:38,200 I mean, I don't know, I don't know. 18 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:42,560 But but in this country we have a really special arrangement 19 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:46,120 with, with these big corporates where we basically said we're 20 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:49,440 going to privatize water or we're going to privatize 21 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:52,400 electricity. And in fact, what all we did was 22 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:54,760 privatize the retail side of things. 23 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:57,640 So, so or, or at least in, in the water, in the case of water, 24 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:01,520 we just permitted them to, to extract profit and and dividends 25 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:04,600 for shareholders and we did not in any way require them to 26 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:07,360 actually invest in infrastructure in the meantime. 27 00:02:07,960 --> 00:02:11,520 And sorry to mention it again, but of course it is such a big 28 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:15,240 issue because we have increased our population by so many extra 29 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:19,800 millions in the last number of years, but we haven't provided 30 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:22,640 any additional infrastructure to cope with that either. 31 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:24,360 Then things are creaking at the seams. 32 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:30,640 And so, you know, instead of treating the treating the sewage 33 00:02:30,640 --> 00:02:33,440 properly, it just gets dumped in the sea and in the rivers. 34 00:02:34,640 --> 00:02:36,640 You mentioned private privatization. 35 00:02:36,640 --> 00:02:39,760 That's an interesting segue because I've been chatting about 36 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:43,000 that with some people the last few days and they argued that 37 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:49,080 sometimes state ownership of various services is superior. 38 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:50,920 It depends. And I think the idea that 39 00:02:50,920 --> 00:02:53,640 privatisation is what you imagine it might be is 40 00:02:53,640 --> 00:02:58,280 completely wrong. So for example, with water, it 41 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:00,960 doesn't create an open marketplace. 42 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:05,240 So if you live in the southwest of England, you have to use 43 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:08,440 Southwest Water. I mean it stands to reason, but 44 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:10,640 I think a lot of people don't necessarily consider it in those 45 00:03:10,640 --> 00:03:12,880 terms. So with water, which is what we 46 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:16,920 are talking about, the privatising doesn't actually 47 00:03:16,920 --> 00:03:20,640 change anything for the consumer in terms of what they get. 48 00:03:20,640 --> 00:03:22,680 The price, well exactly accept the price. 49 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:26,720 So that so in every regard or at least the two important ones, 50 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:30,240 which is first of all what are you getting and secondly, what 51 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:36,040 are you paying for it. The state still sometimes 52 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:39,960 actually controls, but certainly on price they have the ability 53 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:44,080 to introduce caps or taxes or tariffs. 54 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:50,000 So therefore what you're paying for can in large part still be 55 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:54,720 dictated by the state and you don't have any choice in terms 56 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:58,000 of products. So one big topic at the moment 57 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:00,920 in the UK and what should be a big topic anywhere else in the 58 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:05,200 world is the introduction of fluoride into the water, which 59 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:09,160 has been covered on a number of interviews by UK column. 60 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:16,519 And even if you think there's benefit to consuming fluoride, 61 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:20,440 which even if you know it's a byproduct of an ammonium 62 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:24,080 smelting process, nonetheless, if you think it's a good idea, 63 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:27,720 you do still have to acknowledge that it is a a medicine and 64 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:30,680 therefore that turns water into a medicated product. 65 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:33,360 And of course that's with anything medical medicinal. 66 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:39,560 Rather, it has to be done on a dosed basis, which isn't or 67 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:43,680 can't be done. If I drink more water than Mike, 68 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:47,240 I will end up having more fluoride and that may or may not 69 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:50,080 be appropriate. Isn't really is what I should 70 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:52,520 say. So there are lots of issues with 71 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:55,760 it in that actually handing over what they're describing as 72 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:57,480 privatisation is a completeness neighbor. 73 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:00,480 And so, so nobody wins except for the people that run the 74 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:03,040 companies and receive dividends from them. 75 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:08,240 It's, I think it's, it's been a disaster, which was fairly 76 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:09,560 obviously going to happen anyway. 77 00:05:10,280 --> 00:05:14,280 And I'm struggling to think of an example where that in some 78 00:05:14,280 --> 00:05:17,880 way isn't actually the case. It's the same with the the 79 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:21,360 railways to a certain extent in that you don't really have a 80 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:26,840 choice, I don't think between different companies to pursue 81 00:05:26,840 --> 00:05:29,120 the same route. It's the same. 82 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:32,280 So if you live in a particular place, you, you have to get the 83 00:05:32,280 --> 00:05:35,600 water off those people. So yeah, but bit of a joke, but 84 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:39,480 I'm glad you raised beaches. So just to just to jump back for 85 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:43,960 little bit the beaches, I, I'm biased because I know, I know 86 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:46,200 how much you like to a wax lyrical about South African 87 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:48,320 beaches with which I totally agree. 88 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:52,280 But there are lots of very, very beautiful beaches in 89 00:05:52,280 --> 00:05:55,160 particularly the Wilder parts of the United Kingdom. 90 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:59,160 And luckily many of them are still very under visited. 91 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:03,120 But what I would say about those beaches that are visited is that 92 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:07,200 they tell quite a tale about the way in which people behave. 93 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:15,280 And it's not uncommon to go to a large beach and find that 95% or 94 00:06:15,280 --> 00:06:18,880 more of the people there are all crammed into one tiny bit of it. 95 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:24,880 And that's, I would say, indicative of the way in which 96 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:26,760 people do do stuff. And, and I can think of a 97 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:31,560 particular beach in South Wales that I go to on occasion and 98 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:33,960 it's totally fascinating. The beach itself is actually 99 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:39,720 over a mile long and the eastern end of it is always jam packed 100 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:41,040 with people. If there are people there, if 101 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:42,840 the conditions are are nice enough. 102 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:45,680 And then there's a massive expanse of sand and there's 103 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:48,040 never anyone there. And and part of the reason for 104 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:51,160 that is that the jam packed bit is close to the car park, but 105 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:57,080 also there's a sort of de shallow river to cross and 106 00:06:57,240 --> 00:06:59,760 people don't want to do it. But hold on, they're about to go 107 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:00,800 in the sea. Exactly. 108 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:04,680 Or not. Or just be on the beach but not 109 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:06,600 get in the sea, just get the sunburn. 110 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:10,240 I think we're bad at recognising what's around us. 111 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:12,480 And often, you know, this has come up before. 112 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:16,160 Often it does take going away to a different place that does have 113 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:19,160 a different culture, landscape and all the rest of it to 114 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:20,680 appreciate what you have at home. 115 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:24,200 And I think one of the things about the UK, just before we 116 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:26,440 started this call, you were talking about going hunting. 117 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:31,760 Obviously, I'm not exactly sure the setup of that area, but by 118 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:35,640 and large, one of the comparisons with Africa, let's 119 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:40,080 say, is that if you want to go and visit a beautiful wild place 120 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:43,680 where you're going to see amazing scenery and wildlife 121 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:45,920 mostly, you'll have to pay for it. 122 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:48,480 And it's all regulated. You go through gates, you stay 123 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:50,800 in official authorized places, and this, that and the other. 124 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:55,520 OK, the UK doesn't have the wildlife element in the same 125 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:56,760 way. Nothing's going to jump out of 126 00:07:56,760 --> 00:08:01,920 the Bush and kill you probably, but you can go where you want. 127 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:04,920 You don't have to tell anyone and it's all free. 128 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:08,600 And I think a lot of people don't appreciate that. 129 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:12,720 And OK, the the spaces aren't as big, but there are large parts 130 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:15,320 of Wales, north of England, southwest, even where we are, 131 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:19,680 Dartmoor, Exmoor and the Highlands, there are huge tracts 132 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:24,200 of land which we have at the moment pretty much unfettered 133 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:27,680 access to and I think people don't really appreciate that. 134 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:30,560 So sorry that I've drifted a little bit from privatisation. 135 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:33,200 Well, what, what, what look, let me just say something here 136 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:35,480 because because part of the reason that people don't 137 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:39,720 appreciate it is because it's so difficult to get out of cities. 138 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:43,480 And, and this comes back to infrastructure again. 139 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:49,200 So you know that the, the, the roads are usually jam packed. 140 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:51,920 So unless you're leaving at 3:00 in the morning, it can be tricky 141 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:53,640 to get out. So it does take a bit of effort 142 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:57,400 to go to, to these places. I think it's worth the effort, 143 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:00,680 but but that's probably one of the things that puts people the 144 00:09:00,680 --> 00:09:03,320 same way that they don't move more than 100 yards from the car 145 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:06,560 park when they get to the beach. But getting back on the 146 00:09:06,560 --> 00:09:09,440 infrastructure thing again and the question of privatization or 147 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:13,200 nationalization, the, the, the main issue with, with basic 148 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:16,080 economic infrastructure is things like railways, roads, 149 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:20,880 water, power, these kinds of things is you can't have 150 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:23,320 competition. You can't have a private sector 151 00:09:23,320 --> 00:09:29,000 in these areas because you can't have pipes belonging to every 152 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:32,560 possible player in the, in the retail market running under the 153 00:09:32,560 --> 00:09:36,320 street to provide you with your gas or your, or your water 154 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:39,560 supply. So, so you've got a, a basic 155 00:09:39,560 --> 00:09:43,920 infrastructure there which can't really be privatized in the, in 156 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:46,360 the genuine sense. It could be handed over to a 157 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:50,200 private company for them to operate it in the same way that 158 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:53,000 a state owned business would operate it. 159 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:56,400 And it's just as inefficient, but it's even more expensive 160 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:58,160 because they're trying to profiteer from it. 161 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:01,600 But the point here is nobody is then left with the 162 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:04,400 infrastructure, with the responsibility for maintaining 163 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:06,880 the underlying infrastructure. And so what's happened with 164 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:11,320 every major, uh, system of infrastructure that the UK has 165 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:14,480 privatized is that they have allowed the infrastructure to 166 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:17,560 degrade, not being properly maintained, or at least doing 167 00:10:17,560 --> 00:10:19,600 them the absolute minimum to maintain it. 168 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:21,880 They, they might fix the odd leak, but if we look at the 169 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:26,160 water companies, for example, you know, the amount of water 170 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:28,600 that's lost every year to lakes that they just don't know where 171 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:31,400 they are because they don't know where the pipes go is just 172 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:34,960 unbelievable. So, so this is, this is the 173 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:37,320 problem that we're left with. We've had the profiteering from 174 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:39,760 the private companies. No one has maintained the 175 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:42,360 infrastructure. And at some point a decision is 176 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:45,160 going to have to be made about who's going to take 177 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:51,120 responsibility for repairing or renewing or whatever the the 178 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:53,240 current infrastructure. And that's going to fall on the 179 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:55,080 taxpayer. And that's when people are 180 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:57,480 really going to appreciate that that was a pretty bad deal. 181 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:03,680 So, you know, I, I'm not a fan of nationalized industry as a 182 00:11:03,680 --> 00:11:07,080 rule, but I believe that the basic economic infrastructure 183 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:09,920 like that should be a function of the state and the state 184 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:14,720 should be held to account for its the the fact that whether it 185 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:17,400 operates or not. So, so anyway, that's just 186 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:20,720 that's just a a thought. But to add to what you're 187 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:26,280 saying, Mike, is the the typically capitalist or free 188 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:29,920 market argument that well the state simply doesn't do it as 189 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:31,720 well? Yeah, I mean, the, the, the, 190 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:36,400 the, the fact that Britain's infrastructure is in state of 191 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:39,320 such a state of collapse is, is a perfect demonstration of how 192 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:41,960 privatization doesn't work in that context. 193 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:48,520 And that doesn't mean that that by default nationalization works 194 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:50,680 either. You've got to, it's got to be, 195 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:53,240 there's got to be some kind of understanding about how it's 196 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:55,240 going to work, where the responsibility lies. 197 00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:57,920 And the people that are running any business, whether it's 198 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:01,080 private or national, have a responsibility to somebody. 199 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:03,000 In the case of a private company, it's to the 200 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:05,080 shareholders normally. And of course that means to 201 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:07,680 maximizing profit. And the only, in fact the only 202 00:12:07,680 --> 00:12:10,880 interest that the shareholders have is in maximization of 203 00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:13,280 profit. There should be an 204 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:16,200 accountability for a nationalized business as well. 205 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:20,080 And certainly there should be a requirement that if, if a 206 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:25,280 manager or whatever the CEO or whatever fails to fulfill their 207 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:28,080 obligations, that that that they're, you know, they are 208 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:30,960 fired effectively or there's some kind of economic sanction. 209 00:12:31,560 --> 00:12:34,680 And of course that one of the problems of, of nationalized 210 00:12:34,680 --> 00:12:38,080 industries in the past has been that because it's effectively 211 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:41,240 seen as some kind of civil service role and nobody ever 212 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:42,800 gets fired from the civil service. 213 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:46,600 They've, they just get promoted out of the job that then of 214 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:49,680 course that doesn't work either. So, so there's got to be, you 215 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:54,600 know, in principle, I think the state needs to be in control of 216 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:56,880 this type of infrastructure, but there's got to be a proper 217 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:00,360 framework for that so that so there's proper accountability. 218 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:02,480 And that's something that's never happened in this country 219 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:05,400 at least. Technically, though, the state 220 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:08,200 doesn't actually produce anything it outsources. 221 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:12,600 Yeah. Well, now it does in the in the 222 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:16,240 past it is, it has, I mean, businesses have been state 223 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:18,600 owned. So so effectively the state is 224 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:20,200 the shareholder. You could look at it from that 225 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:23,400 point of view and perhaps if there was shareholder value for 226 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:25,680 the taxpayer, then then maybe that's that. 227 00:13:25,680 --> 00:13:28,800 That might be a good model. That is it's run like a private 228 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:31,480 company, but any profit goes to the to the taxpayer. 229 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:35,160 I don't know, you know, I don't have, I don't have an answer 230 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:38,000 that's guaranteed to work here, but that's what I what was, 231 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:41,160 what's absolutely clear is that the current model is insane 232 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:44,800 because we are going to be left with a, a bill for a replacement 233 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,120 of infrastructure that we simply can't ever pay. 234 00:13:48,360 --> 00:13:51,120 I think you're talking about the point that Jason Kristoff was 235 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:55,680 making earlier in the week about a friend of his who built roads 236 00:13:55,680 --> 00:13:58,240 in Canada. And I totally agree. 237 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:03,560 And I think if one winds the clock back, then you look at a 238 00:14:03,560 --> 00:14:07,560 situation in which roads or railways were built by people 239 00:14:07,560 --> 00:14:12,160 who had to maintain because that was their business. 240 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:16,400 And unfortunately, we've moved into a situation where either 241 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:19,640 the infrastructure has been built by an organization or an 242 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:22,640 entity that doesn't have control of it anymore because the state 243 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:26,080 has taken it over. And that's created either an 244 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:29,080 uneasy relationship with whoever provides the service on it, 245 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:33,400 which is exactly what Mike's describing, or, and this was 246 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:39,000 Jason's point, the state is paying somebody else to to do 247 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:42,400 that. And therein lies, well, I mean a 248 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:47,120 number of problems, but I think the most obvious one being that 249 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:50,760 that organization, having been contracted to do it, doesn't 250 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:55,720 actually have any interest in what happens next. 251 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:59,440 So, and as an example of that, it's a small scale example, but 252 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:02,840 I live in a rural environment and the government's been 253 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:05,040 banging on about rural broadband for ages. 254 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:12,640 Then something was done and where we are, a fibre network, 255 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:14,600 whatever you call it, was was dug into the ground. 256 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:18,640 In some places it was done relatively well and others it 257 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:23,200 was chaotic. Anyway, the point is that that 258 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:27,120 was said to be a project that was owned by the County Council. 259 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:30,960 And therefore if used as sort of microcosm of the state, then we 260 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:32,480 think OK, yeah, it's a state project. 261 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:35,640 But of course it wasn't. It was done by a third party 262 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:41,000 commercial enterprise and then they folded and no records of 263 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:44,280 what they did, what they put where the infrastructure survive 264 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:47,120 absolutely outstanding. And that happened immediately 265 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:50,600 the project reached its, well, I think in fact may not have quite 266 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:52,760 concluded. So everything that's been done 267 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:58,160 so far, IE something I did eventually, reluctantly sign up 268 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:01,080 to, if there's any drama with it, no one knows. 269 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:04,680 No one has any idea what was done, how it was done. 270 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:08,680 So yeah, too far another. Great example of this. 271 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:11,120 You mentioned France. France is another great example 272 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:15,560 of this actually, because French motorways are generally toll 273 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:20,520 roads, mostly toll roads. And so the French government 274 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:23,720 commissioned companies, private companies to build these roads. 275 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:25,200 They're absolutely brilliant roads. 276 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:31,080 They're relatively traffic free compared to the to UK motorways, 277 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:33,280 for example. So it's, it's quite easy to move 278 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:38,520 over long distances in France. But the original deal was you 279 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:41,480 build the road and you can put your toll booths on it for 20 280 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:45,000 years. Well, the 20 year period came up 281 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:48,200 about 3-4 five years ago, can't remember exactly when. 282 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:51,880 And they, they just the, the government then just entered 283 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:54,960 into a new 20 year deal with the companies and they just shafted 284 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:57,720 the taxpayer. You know, the agreement was 20 285 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:00,560 years with tolls and then it was owned by the state. 286 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:05,400 Now you could argue that that's fair enough because those roads 287 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:07,720 are well maintained and, and so on. 288 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:12,560 But nonetheless, you know, at the same time, there's still 289 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:15,760 you, you enter into an agreement with somebody and, and it's 290 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:17,720 supposed to be for a fixed term and that's it. 291 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:20,839 And then suddenly the rules get changed so that there, there 292 00:17:20,839 --> 00:17:22,280 are, there are things to consider here. 293 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:24,800 And, and I'm not sure that there was any, ever any proper 294 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:26,359 consultation. It was just done. 295 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:29,920 If there perhaps would have been a consultation with the, with 296 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:32,440 the, the road user and the taxpayer, then, then it might 297 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:35,520 have been a different situation. But that was a pretty unpopular 298 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:37,120 move at the time. There's. 299 00:17:37,120 --> 00:17:40,800 A bridge that goes between mainland China and Hong Kong. 300 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:42,960 I forget the name of it now. It's very long. 301 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:44,800 I think it's like 20 kilometers or something. 302 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:47,800 It is a magnificent piece of architecture. 303 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:51,080 It was not done by a private company, it was done by the 304 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:52,920 state. Will it become a white elephant 305 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:55,520 in 20 or 30 years time? Well, I suppose that. 306 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:58,080 Depends on the economic impact that it has. 307 00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:02,960 If it if it's if that's allowing economic activity to happen, 308 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:07,080 which is generating tax dollars, then then it's not a white, it 309 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:10,560 can never be a white elephant. It's only if it's if it's a 310 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:14,840 vanity project that never had any real economic value in the 311 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:17,320 1st place that it would end up that way. 312 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:19,360 No, but I think. A lot of Chinese stuff is 313 00:18:19,360 --> 00:18:21,760 vanity. I don't, I'm not sure that 314 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:24,360 that's necessarily fair. I think some, some I'm certainly 315 00:18:24,360 --> 00:18:29,400 when I look at at wind turbines and the, I think perhaps you 316 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:32,360 could argue that because they are selling those products to, 317 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:36,680 to other countries. But I mean, you look at some of 318 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:39,400 the really big infrastructure projects like 7 Gorges Dam or 319 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:41,320 whatever. Is that what it's called 33 320 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:43,760 Gorges Dam? I mean, I mean, not that has 321 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:47,240 that has changed people's lives. So, so it's not just a vanity 322 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:50,480 project. I think, I think they and high 323 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:52,880 speed rail is certainly not a vanity project. 324 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:57,160 For example, even the Maglev well that certainly was a 325 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:00,120 research project and, and, but it's it's still working, 326 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:04,120 although they haven't developed built anymore, it's still 327 00:19:04,120 --> 00:19:06,600 functioning and it's still operational and so on. 328 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:11,600 So, so I'm not sure that I'm not sure that much of it is is could 329 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:14,360 be just called a vanity project just. 330 00:19:14,360 --> 00:19:16,560 To be specific, I think don't you mean the bridge to 331 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:18,840 Singapore? No Hong. 332 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:21,200 Kong. Because Hong Kong is connected 333 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:25,360 to mainland Jonas by land. You mean the one that goes? 334 00:19:25,360 --> 00:19:28,160 Under the sea a bit. There's also that one, but 335 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:29,920 there's one that goes over the over the sea. 336 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:31,480 Right. OK. 337 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:36,400 No, no, I was, I was only wondering about the Singapore 338 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,280 one, which sorry, this is red herring and sidetracked, but 339 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:42,600 there are two ferries a day, 2 hydrofiles a day, which which 340 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:46,880 make that route very busy and therefore that that bridge has 341 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:48,760 been completely justified. But sorry, I thought you're 342 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:51,640 saying that one because that you could say that there was a bit 343 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:53,320 of vanity in that, in that it does. 344 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:58,360 You may have seen it online, but it it goes under the sea or 345 00:19:58,360 --> 00:20:02,880 exception in order to allow bigger ships to pass effectively 346 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:04,600 over the top of it where there wouldn't be room to go 347 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:08,680 underneath the COVID. ERA should have very, very 348 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:12,840 blatantly shown us that the dichotomy between state 349 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:15,200 ownership and private ownership is a false one. 350 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:20,280 It's a fake binary, because technocracy is really not about 351 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:23,120 either one of those. It is this merger which which 352 00:20:23,120 --> 00:20:25,520 Ian Davis refers to as stakeholder capitalism. 353 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:28,960 Yeah, I mean. This is the, the global public 354 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:33,760 private partnership where you've seen the, the rollout of PPI and 355 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:38,480 PPP projects over the last 40 years or whatever. 356 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:41,960 And, and, but what we're starting to see now is, is 357 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:45,640 something which is, you know, order of magnitude bigger and 358 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:48,840 worse. And it's not just, it's not just 359 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:52,280 a merger of, of state and corporate, it's state corporate 360 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:57,240 and Tony Blair's third way, you know, that all the NGO think 361 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:00,720 tank charity sector as well. It is, it is a total merger of 362 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:05,120 everything. And, and yes, so it is true that 363 00:21:05,120 --> 00:21:08,280 in the not too distant future, the whole issue of public versus 364 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:10,440 private is going to be moot because there's not going to be 365 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:12,160 any difference between them. They're going to be the same 366 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:13,720 thing. It is incredible what they're 367 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:15,960 building at the moment and how fast they're doing it. 368 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:19,560 And that's what Catherine Fitz is constantly warning about. 369 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:23,440 You know, if you, if you, if you arguing about red versus blue in 370 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:25,520 the States, you, you're being distracted. 371 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:28,560 Well. And and increasingly everywhere 372 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:32,400 because, you know, we, I mean, I think everybody's referring to 373 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:36,760 this idea of the UNI party now, you know, a perfect example was 374 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:41,320 was because I only mention it because it's in everybody's 375 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:45,480 immediate memories. But you know, Keir Starmer was 376 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:49,440 elected here one year ago pretty much on the idea of change. 377 00:21:50,120 --> 00:21:53,080 It was a change agenda. We've heard politicians talk 378 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:54,840 about change. There's always been somebody in 379 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:57,680 the last 40 years that's been running on a change platform. 380 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:01,560 Well, he ran on a change platform and quick as a flash, 381 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:04,160 no sooner had he become Prime Minister then absolutely nothing 382 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:07,760 changed. All the same legislation simply 383 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:11,320 got rebranded and pursued. The only difference, the only 384 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:15,160 change in fact, was the speed. So they, they've attempted to 385 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:19,640 run through the same agenda in a much faster pace. 386 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,240 And so there's absolutely zero change. 387 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,480 And it's a perfect example of how the UNI party works because 388 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:30,960 policy just continues. And you know, the, the question 389 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:34,320 is where does policy come from? And, and it's certainly not 390 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:35,920 coming from political parties anymore. 391 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:40,120 They might, they might pay some lip service to being, you know, 392 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:42,760 Labour being a Socialist Party and there's nothing socialist 393 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:45,000 about it anymore. They got rid of any semblance of 394 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:49,240 socialism in two stages either partly with Tony Blair. 395 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:51,800 And then when there was an attempt to move back towards 396 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,880 being some kind of basically a Socialist Party with Jeremy 397 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:58,600 Corbyn, they, they, they pulled the full strength of the 398 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:01,880 anti-Semitic card to get rid of him and every Corbynite 399 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:07,360 influence in the party. And so the Starmer party is, is 400 00:23:07,360 --> 00:23:12,200 much even even further away from being socialist in the, in the 401 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:17,520 Tony Blair version of it. So it's, it's been an incredible 402 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:19,600 operation to, to, to change that. 403 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:22,160 So if, if we're talking about a change agenda, maybe that's 404 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:26,440 where the change was. But nonetheless, you know that 405 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:31,480 the Tories even reform in some respects, but although we 406 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,240 haven't really had any indication of exactly what kind 407 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,200 of policies Reform will pursue because they haven't really 408 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:39,720 published anything yet. And so the, the, you know, 409 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:43,240 they're mainly talking about the issues that are most motivating 410 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:45,480 the general public like immigration and so on, but 411 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:48,200 they're not actually getting into the gritty or the weeds of, 412 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:51,840 of actual policy at this point. But nonetheless, none of the 413 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:54,360 mainstream parties have anything different to say. 414 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:58,920 So it is genuinely a uni party and, and anybody that's watching 415 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,760 the news yesterday, the UK column news yesterday will have 416 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:07,680 seen us talking about the fact that they've redefined the what 417 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:11,000 it is to be an MP in the UK. And they've removed from the 418 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,120 definition or from the page that describes this, any reference to 419 00:24:14,120 --> 00:24:17,800 elections and any reference to representation of an electorate. 420 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:23,400 And so we're clearly seeing that in the documentation that they 421 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:28,560 are publishing, the role of, of MPs changing and therefore 422 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,880 democracy changing. And we have been arguing for a 423 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:36,120 long time that democracy no longer exists, we only have 424 00:24:36,120 --> 00:24:39,200 dictatorship. And I think the a dictatorship 425 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:42,400 run by uni party is exactly the model we're looking at. 426 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:46,080 So basically. An election is just moving the 427 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:50,320 chairs around on the Titanic. That would be a reasonable way 428 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:54,200 to pull it. You think that's unfair, 429 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:56,560 Charles? No, no, no. 430 00:24:56,560 --> 00:25:02,560 I think there's probably a bit more to add to it in that what 431 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:08,080 it does is it provides the public with what they think they 432 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:14,800 need, which is the opportunity to influence what's going on in 433 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:18,000 their country. And therefore they to, to a 434 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:22,880 great extent, excuse things that continue to go disastrously 435 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:29,080 wrong or to prolong the Titanic analogy, to strike the iceberg 436 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:30,520 or whatever it's supposed to have done. 437 00:25:31,120 --> 00:25:39,520 But so yeah, I think the the election process is a, it's just 438 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:44,000 another part of the theatre. If we didn't have elections, I 439 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:49,520 think people would far more readily understand exactly what 440 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:50,960 is happening. But because we've always got 441 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:54,000 this transition, just going back to the plan for change thing, 442 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:57,080 it's fascinating. Now you read any government 443 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,840 document and exactly like Mike says, the policy is the same, 444 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:04,800 the legislation is the same, everything that's coming is the 445 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:07,920 same, might be dressed up in a slightly different way and the 446 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:14,560 and the pace is different. But you see this tagline under 447 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:19,840 Labour's plan for change, which is meant to convince the reader 448 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,720 that this is happening. And it's completely different 449 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:24,960 from what would have happened if they hadn't been there. 450 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:29,280 And it's the same way in which the changes that were made 451 00:26:29,360 --> 00:26:34,640 during the 2020 to ever after the, the sort of due to COVID 452 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:37,000 bid, you know, due to the change of this and the other. 453 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:42,520 So there are many elements to it. 454 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:46,840 I had an insight recently. I went to an event that I'll be 455 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:50,160 reporting on, but it was a an event that describes itself as 456 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:52,600 being about regenerative agriculture. 457 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:57,000 Of course it's not really about regenerative agriculture, but I 458 00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,360 listened to a discussion that was chaired by somebody called 459 00:26:59,360 --> 00:27:03,480 Henry Dimbleby, who's son of one of the broadcasters, I can't 460 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:07,520 remember which. He has worked with five 461 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:11,840 successive governments to advise them on food and food strategy, 462 00:27:12,360 --> 00:27:15,280 qualified as he is by having run a restaurant. 463 00:27:16,360 --> 00:27:19,720 And he was speaking to a former government minister called 464 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:24,440 George Eustace and a former boss of Sainsbury's called Justin 465 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:28,720 King. And it was fascinating because 466 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:33,040 they were all agreed that the government was the problem and 467 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:37,440 that farming was suffering because the government wasn't 468 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,280 providing any long term solutions. 469 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:43,080 Then we had the climate staff and all the all the various bits 470 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:48,120 that were rolled in to create this very complicated web that 471 00:27:48,120 --> 00:27:49,960 the government had apparently made a mess of. 472 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:52,160 So they seem to be agreed on that. 473 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:58,560 And then as a sequitur, they described the government as 474 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:02,520 being the solution. And everybody in the audience 475 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:06,400 seemed, as far as I could tell, to be thinking, yes, this is 476 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:08,720 right. We have absolutely no evidence 477 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:13,440 that the government can and will create the right conditions 478 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:17,000 because they never have. But we're going to continue to 479 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:22,960 back them to have a go. And this seemed to be the theme 480 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:26,120 throughout a lot of the talks at this event, which I'm not 481 00:28:26,120 --> 00:28:27,280 surprised by. I mean, I didn't go there. 482 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:29,240 I think, oh, crikey, this isn't what I thought it was going to 483 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:30,480 be. I knew exactly what it was going 484 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:31,840 to be. But it's very interesting to see 485 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:33,720 people sit there and talk about it like that. 486 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,640 And particularly to hear Justin King, who's at Sainsbury's, 487 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:40,920 talking about the way in which the relationship with government 488 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:44,680 worked and how government really, especially if they've 489 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,200 got people like Dimbleby there who's not an expert in how to 490 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,360 produce food. And again, OK, sidetrack. 491 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:54,080 And I mentioned this last year, and it might seem unfair, it 492 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:57,120 might seem petty, it might seem personal, but it is true. 493 00:28:57,120 --> 00:28:59,520 They all sit there and talk about health and highly 494 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:03,080 processed food and this, that and the other, and they're all 495 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:06,680 considerably overweight. And I know it seems like an 496 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:10,960 unkind point to make, but seriously, where does one draw 497 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:12,320 the line? You know, there's only so long 498 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:15,280 you can talk about this sort of thing without actually doing any 499 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:16,960 of it yourself or setting an example. 500 00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,840 But this seems to speak to the wider problem. 501 00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:24,520 So King at Sainsbury's was talking about a supermarket 502 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:28,120 leading the consumer, rather than listening to as though 503 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:30,680 there wasn't a situation in which the consumer might know 504 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:35,480 enough to be able to demand such and such a thing from a food 505 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:38,160 producer. And that in turn is informing 506 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:39,960 government policy. And that's very obvious now 507 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:42,000 because they've set up something called the Food Strategy 508 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:46,160 Advisory Board, which is entirely populated by people 509 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:51,280 with big industry interests. So at no point is this ever 510 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:55,960 designed to benefit the people at the individual level, or 511 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:57,760 actually the people who are supposed to be producing the 512 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:01,320 food. It, it is a system that 513 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:04,080 perpetuates. And, and this again is the, is 514 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:07,200 this sort of public private partnership And, and the, you 515 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:10,520 know, the UNI party is, is absolutely a part of it. 516 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:15,640 And the way that the civil service is informed and pushed 517 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:22,960 by a sort of combination of commercial leaders and so-called 518 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:27,320 think tanks means that it's a it's an absolute stitch up. 519 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:30,720 So I go back to the point about the the four year cycle, five 520 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,400 year cycle or you know, or less whatever it is for elections 521 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:39,600 where people are presented with a well, totally false choice and 522 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,880 that being false choice between voting red or blue. 523 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:46,600 I mean a false choice as in that they think they're actually 524 00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:48,280 choosing something. They're not. 525 00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:49,800 They get no choice. But. 526 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:53,760 That's what Noam Chomsky said. You keep people controlled 527 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:58,560 within a parameter, and then you encourage lively debate within 528 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:01,400 that parameter. Exactly. 529 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:02,240 Totally. So, yeah. 530 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:05,000 And then this is what's such a joke to see people going to an 531 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:08,000 event that's supposed to be about regenerative agriculture 532 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:09,840 and letting naked nature take over. 533 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:14,680 And yet every single stand there is about letting somebody else 534 00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,960 do the work that nature's supposed to be doing and to have 535 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:22,040 some sort of input, whether it's through some government scam 536 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:26,200 slash scheme or, you know, commercial enterprise that come 537 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:30,280 on and sort this out for you. So, yeah, it's a, it's a massive 538 00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:32,600 diversion. Red herring a good friend. 539 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:35,800 Of mine, Farmer Angus, who I know you know, Charles is a 540 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:39,080 strong advocate of regenerative agriculture. 541 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:41,400 Yeah, he is. And he, he actually knows what 542 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:43,000 it means and he knows how to do it. 543 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,960 And further, he understands that if you do do it properly, then 544 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:50,920 it works as a business and it works for, for the land. 545 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:56,000 It does improve the environment. It creates a healthy situation 546 00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,960 for the soil, for the livestock and the people that eat it. 547 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,680 I mean, it is not that complicated, and it's how things 548 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:05,920 used to be done before. As with anything that's been 549 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:09,400 tinkered with before, greedy people saw opportunities to 550 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,880 subvert the way in which things can be done naturally with 551 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:14,720 minimal inputs and minimal costs. 552 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:17,080 I for the. Longest time was part of the 553 00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:20,360 sort of free market mindset. I mean, I read Adam Smith and 554 00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:23,760 Rothbard and and Mises and and Murray. 555 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:26,160 No, not Murray. Is it Hayek? 556 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:29,960 Sorry, Hayek and a little bit of Milton Friedman too. 557 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:35,160 But you come to realize, particularly when you think to 558 00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,320 the thing back to the COVID era that it's just all kind of 559 00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:43,320 academic wankery. It sounds great on paper, but in 560 00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:45,720 but reality is is a lot more complex. 561 00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:51,280 I think, I think, well, I don't know that the reality is more 562 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:53,200 complex. I mean, I think, I think the 563 00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:57,600 wankery as you put it, is, is, is, can be made as complex as 564 00:32:57,600 --> 00:32:59,480 you like. And, and they often do. 565 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:08,560 I think, you know, at, at a very basic level, economy is about 566 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:12,160 providing something that somebody wants, producing 567 00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:14,560 something. I think, I think with respect to 568 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:20,040 food production, that the, the, the, the idea of producing 569 00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:22,960 something that that people can live on has been replaced with 570 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:26,960 just profiteering. And you know what it's, it's a 571 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:30,040 very interesting conversation. I think with with, with someone 572 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:35,880 to, to ask the question, are you producing the food that you're 573 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,720 producing and the way that you're producing it, which is 574 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:42,560 effectively devoid of proper, proper nutrients? 575 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:47,640 Because you know that for somebody to get the, the level 576 00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:50,160 of nutrition that they might need, they have to therefore buy 577 00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:53,200 more of it and therefore you can profit more from it. 578 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:58,640 The problem with regenerative farming as far as this type of 579 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:02,520 mindset would be is is that of course, if you're producing much 580 00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:05,240 less, but it's much more nutrient dense and therefore 581 00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:09,600 people don't need to eat need to eat as much of it, they can't 582 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:13,000 sell as much of it. Now then you get into the 583 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:15,120 question of whether you can charge more for that. 584 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:19,000 Well, at the moment you can because because it's it's, it's 585 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:23,040 a a minority project. It's a niche thing and people 586 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:27,120 are willing to pay more for it. But if it becomes, if it were 587 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:30,840 ever to, to become once again a sort of the mainstream, then 588 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:32,800 then the question is how you make it pay. 589 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:36,920 And, and if, if you're, if you're only looking at things 590 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:40,760 from a corporate standpoint and you're wanting to maximize 591 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:46,800 profit rather than from a, an industry which is based on this, 592 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:51,400 on the small family farm where actually people are just need to 593 00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:55,560 make a comfortable living. And then, you know, it becomes, 594 00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:58,120 that's where the complexity starts to come. 595 00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:03,600 I mean, I would, I would love to see more farmers take the risk. 596 00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:08,560 And because I mean, I, I get it. The, the current farming model 597 00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:12,040 is it only works if you're massive corporate. 598 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:16,280 And so if you're a small farmer trying to play in that, in that 599 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,400 game, in that pool, you're really struggling and you're 600 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,840 therefore absolutely reliant on government subsidy of whatever 601 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:27,800 form it is. And so they are the small farms 602 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:30,160 of the medium sized farms that we're seeing at the moment are 603 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:34,200 therefore pulling more and more land out of food production in 604 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:39,160 order to get involved in these renaturization schemes, because 605 00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:41,640 that's where the government subsidy in the UK is at the 606 00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:45,080 moment. And of course, that then puts 607 00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:51,400 people more at the behest of the of the big corporate, you know, 608 00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:54,680 hyper processed factory food industry. 609 00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:59,760 And this is, this is a very bad place to be going. 610 00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:02,920 I would, I would like to see some farm into it. 611 00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:06,960 I've not underestimate the risk. I would like to see more farmers 612 00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:10,480 take the risk of stepping away from that model and actually 613 00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:14,680 thinking about how they might produce high quality, nutrient 614 00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:20,000 dense food that in the short term, medium term at least, they 615 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:24,080 can charge more for. And you know, it's going to 616 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:28,880 require more people. Sorry that you were speaking to 617 00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:31,160 Ivor Cummins last night. It was that went out last night, 618 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:32,600 wasn't it? And, and the basis of that 619 00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,960 discussion was, you know, if you're not well, you can't 620 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:39,040 fight, you can't resist if you're, if you're having to, if 621 00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:41,520 all you're doing is spending time dealing with your health. 622 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:45,880 I sort of touched on this last week as well, but, but you know, 623 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:49,160 I, I hope that, I hope there's been a good response, a good 624 00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:53,080 audience for that discussion. I've been disappointed in, in 625 00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:55,960 the response that we've had to similar discussions from other 626 00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:58,960 people in the past. We have got to, this goes back 627 00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:01,480 to this whole business of looking after ourselves first. 628 00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:07,520 We've got a, we've got a appreciate that in the past a 629 00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:10,960 larger proportion of our monthly, weekly, monthly income 630 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:15,040 was spent on food. And, and we have got used to the 631 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:20,640 trade off between cheap supermarket rubbish that we 632 00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:23,600 consume that fills a hole, that makes us feel as if we've eaten 633 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:26,840 something but doesn't actually do us any good whatsoever. 634 00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:31,400 We've, we've chosen that so that we can take our two holidays or 635 00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:33,480 three holidays a year in foreign countries. 636 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:36,360 And, and we've, we've got to start making the right 637 00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:38,040 decisions. And one of those is to look 638 00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:40,520 after ourselves. And that might mean actually 639 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:44,800 supporting farmers and encouraging farmers to take the 640 00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:48,320 right steps and going towards a more regenerative model instead 641 00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:51,720 of this mass food production thing that where they're totally 642 00:37:51,720 --> 00:37:54,320 beholden, you know, let's let's grow some weight. 643 00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:58,000 Well, actually, how much is weed selling on the global markets at 644 00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:00,600 the moment? And, and that model has to 645 00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:03,560 change because those farmers are on a hiding to nothing. 646 00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:06,120 They're reliant on the state. The state can withdraw the money 647 00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:09,640 at any moment. And, and they're in fact, at the 648 00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:14,040 moment, as we know, pulling land out of food production in order 649 00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:16,600 to get that government subsidy. And as soon as you've got a 650 00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:19,720 farm, which is no longer its primary purpose is no longer 651 00:38:19,720 --> 00:38:22,080 food production, then what's the point of it? 652 00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:26,120 So anyway, that's that's. My thoughts on that, I mean, I 653 00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:28,160 agree with you. My complexity comment was, was 654 00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:32,640 more around the idea that public bad, private good, you know, 655 00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:36,200 that that that dichotomy that we've seen over the years is 656 00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:39,760 just simply not realistic. And we can certainly see that 657 00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:42,520 now with the sort of the stakeholder capitalism, the 658 00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:46,480 public private partnership concept taking taking hold in a 659 00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:50,200 in a very strong way. Now that that it, it is more 660 00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:52,200 nuanced. Maybe nuanced is the better 661 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:54,480 word, but. Absolutely. 662 00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:58,960 And part of the problem here is, is that that that one is seen 663 00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:02,760 because it's so ideological. 1 is seen as being left wing 664 00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:06,720 communist if you like and therefore no we don't want that 665 00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:10,040 and the other is seen as being, you know, capitalist and 666 00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:14,040 therefore good at the extremes. Neither of these things is good 667 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:19,720 and and we are being royally shafted by corporate entities 668 00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:23,600 every single day of the week and it it just beggars belief that 669 00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:27,720 that nobody is prepared to set aside ideology and have a 670 00:39:27,720 --> 00:39:30,720 serious conversation about what would be the best thing to do at 671 00:39:30,720 --> 00:39:34,480 this point. The comparison that Angus made 672 00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:39,800 was a really good one. He talks about the food to his 673 00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:43,800 workers and says, well, in actual fact, the beef that we 674 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:50,840 sell by weight costs less than the potato chips that you go and 675 00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:54,560 buy in the shop. And you get a hell of a lot more 676 00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:56,680 nutrition out of it. And you'd always be surprised. 677 00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:57,960 You know, we talk about nutrient density. 678 00:39:57,960 --> 00:39:59,720 What does it actually mean? OK. 679 00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:03,840 I think in the first instance if you change from a diet of 680 00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:06,160 largely. Processed food that has to be 681 00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:08,200 consumed by volume to make you feel full. 682 00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:14,360 Then switching to say nutrient dense, properly farmed beef, 683 00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:17,560 you'd probably want to be consuming more of it than you 684 00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:20,440 necessarily need to. But after a while you adjust and 685 00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:24,880 then it is quite incredible how little of something you need in 686 00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:28,920 order to feel full and how long that will keep you feeling full 687 00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:30,920 for. So I think the the whole way 688 00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:34,760 that we're, you know, the sort of three squares a day for some 689 00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:37,160 people, yeah, OK, maybe that absolutely is what they need to 690 00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:38,200 do. But I think people don't even 691 00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:40,080 recognise the signs that they get from their body. 692 00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:42,320 And people can't distinguish between what is hunger and what 693 00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:46,640 is just a blood sugar low and how long you can be sustained 694 00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:51,320 for by a particular food. OK, There are there absolutely 695 00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:56,760 are issues with one size does not fit, does not fit all. 696 00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:00,440 And I think there are a lot of different things to to look at 697 00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:03,640 in terms of metabolism and the way your blood type informs your 698 00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:04,840 digestion and all that kind of thing. 699 00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:11,320 But the principle of it is that food of the right quality, the 700 00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:15,920 right type goes so much further than that doesn't. 701 00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:24,120 And I would say in overall cost, there's no contest. 702 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:31,120 Proper nutrient dense food costs you far less because it enables 703 00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:35,080 you to be in the right state of health and state of mind to be 704 00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:36,520 able to do all the things you want to do. 705 00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:40,600 Don't get ill, you don't get tired, you don't miss out on 706 00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:43,840 this out on the other. You don't have to go to why we 707 00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:45,520 do anyway, but you don't have to go to a doctor. 708 00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:48,960 You don't have to engage in all sorts of things that either cost 709 00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:51,800 you money or certainly prohibit you from making money. 710 00:41:52,240 --> 00:41:54,320 So I think that's how people need to look at it rather than 711 00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:56,520 the upfront thing of Oh well, I could buy something and I can 712 00:41:56,520 --> 00:42:01,520 stick in the microwave for X amount or something next to it 713 00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:05,640 that I know has been produced properly, which appears to cost 714 00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:08,480 more. So, but it is a transition. 715 00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:13,000 I think it takes a while to work that out and to understand your 716 00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:16,760 body's response to any of these things and, and conditioning 717 00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:19,960 your way into. Which reminds me slightly of 718 00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:24,560 what James Walton was talking about with his prepping 719 00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:28,960 discussion. And because he, I think he, he'd 720 00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:32,280 been going through something that I can't believe that all 721 00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:34,240 his family necessarily signed up for voluntarily. 722 00:42:34,240 --> 00:42:36,440 But he was talking about going through a period of time where 723 00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:40,280 they would eat for X number of days of the week and then not 724 00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:45,000 eat for some of them, which people would otherwise describe. 725 00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:46,840 If you take the prepping side of it, you know, it's just 726 00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:50,720 intermittent fasting. So, but nonetheless, it's very 727 00:42:50,720 --> 00:42:53,400 interesting and I think a lot of people, probably a lot of people 728 00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:55,320 listening, they're saying, oh, there's no way I wouldn't be 729 00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:56,880 able to do that. I would not be able to go for a 730 00:42:56,880 --> 00:43:01,360 day or two days without food. Well, OK, this is not advice, 731 00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:04,920 but if you are interested, then look into it. 732 00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:07,960 I mean, personally speaking, it's something that I probably 733 00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:11,440 didn't think I'd really wanted to do, but it's very achievable 734 00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:14,240 and it is really interesting and I think it does have a 735 00:43:14,240 --> 00:43:16,720 beneficial effect on the body. But again, that is not medical 736 00:43:16,720 --> 00:43:20,320 advice. So try these things, but not 737 00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:22,520 necessarily under the label of prepping. 738 00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:24,320 You don't have to think. Oh, well, go. 739 00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:26,280 You just never know. I might have to be stuck in the 740 00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:29,040 woods for a day or two days rather more. 741 00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:31,480 Just think, well, why don't you just embrace that as a system of 742 00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:33,000 life? And then if you do get stuck in 743 00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:34,960 the wood for a couple of days, you're already adjusted to it 744 00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:37,120 and it's fine. Yeah, but that's what. 745 00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:39,400 He says. He says prepping is just a a 746 00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:42,720 term that was coined years ago, but effectively it's just a 747 00:43:42,720 --> 00:43:48,840 lifestyle that's about thinking about how to approach certain 748 00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:52,120 events, which is something that we all talk about anyway. 749 00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:54,280 It's solutions orientated thinking. 750 00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:58,520 Yeah, totally. I mean, this is it. 751 00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:03,880 But I still well he yeah, he markets himself for his product, 752 00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:09,200 his website and all the all the content as as prepping or you 753 00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:12,720 know, that they are preppers. And yes, of course, he's, he's 754 00:44:12,720 --> 00:44:15,440 quite right to go into the, the whole language element of it, 755 00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:20,440 because I don't think it does describe at all what it is that 756 00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:23,360 you're doing. To me. 757 00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:27,360 It's simply a process of living how you should. 758 00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:33,240 And if one of the consequences of that is that if there is a 759 00:44:33,240 --> 00:44:38,160 shock to such and such a system, you're, I mean, you might not 760 00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:40,640 even know about it doesn't make any difference to you. 761 00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:43,480 Rather than thinking, OK, well, I've got a bagpack for that, 762 00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:47,960 I've got a freezer for that, and everything's a sort of what if? 763 00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:51,000 I don't think any of it should be a what if it should be. 764 00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:55,360 This is how I live my life. Well, I mean, personal 765 00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:57,880 anecdotes. My wife and I were at a music 766 00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:00,640 festival, I don't know, a year and a half ago, whatever. 767 00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:05,760 And and we we camped and while setting up the tent, I 768 00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:10,240 accidentally slipped and I stuck my knife into my hand. 769 00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:13,560 So I've got AI mean I've got a scar here now from it. 770 00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:17,560 Now, if you don't know how to handle a situation like that, 771 00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:21,600 you're in trouble because there's a lot of blood and and 772 00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:23,200 you get light headed very, very quickly. 773 00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:26,440 I mean, the whole thing just becomes very complicated very 774 00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:28,080 fast. Yeah, but that. 775 00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:30,640 That's what I mean. I mean that that should be part 776 00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:33,000 and parcel of life. Everyone should know that stuff 777 00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:37,000 from the earliest possible time because that can happen. 778 00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:38,280 I mean, you can do that in the kitchen. 779 00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:41,280 I wouldn't. Put a label of prepping on that, 780 00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:42,920 that that is that's, Charles says. 781 00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:45,400 That's just life. And, and actually a lot of 782 00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:47,640 people just need preparation. Yeah, but. 783 00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:50,600 But, but it has this connotation that you're prepping for some 784 00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:54,360 major disaster. You know, I, I think a lot of 785 00:45:54,360 --> 00:46:00,000 what is labeled as prepping is actually just living and, and 786 00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:02,880 something that we should. These, these are skills we used 787 00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:05,640 to have. They're skills we absolutely 788 00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:10,720 should have that we have remove from ourselves by giving 789 00:46:10,720 --> 00:46:16,000 ourselves up to the to automation in many ways and to 790 00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:21,160 the the state provided healthcare system and big 791 00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:25,560 pharma. So food, health, these types of 792 00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:29,080 things. This is again comes back to the 793 00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:31,760 conversation we had last week to some degree. 794 00:46:32,240 --> 00:46:35,640 These are things that that we should view as being areas of 795 00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:40,320 personal responsibility and, and something that we can control in 796 00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:42,280 our own lives if we choose to do so. 797 00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:47,280 And, and so, you know, it's, it's a matter of, of choice 798 00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:50,640 about who we decide is going to be responsible for these things. 799 00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:54,320 And if we're going to outsource that ourselves to, to, to the 800 00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:59,760 state, that's perhaps not the best form of public service that 801 00:46:59,880 --> 00:47:03,400 that we should be encouraging. And we need to, we need to 802 00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:05,440 relearn these skills, that thing. 803 00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:10,960 With Facebook and the gathering of data to influence the 804 00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:14,800 American election, can you remember that whole thing? 805 00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:20,280 It was about around 2016, yes. Alex created about it and I 806 00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:21,520 can't remember what it Yes, I know. 807 00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:23,160 I know what you mean. And Steve Bannon? 808 00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:25,960 Was part of it. Damn it, I've gone blank now 809 00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:28,960 are. You talking about Palantir and 810 00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:30,080 and? No, no, no. 811 00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:33,600 No, no, no. And Zuckerberg was still held in 812 00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:35,280 front of Congress to ask about it. 813 00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:40,680 Does Cambridge Analytica. Sorry, yes, yes. 814 00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:43,360 Yeah. Well, yes. 815 00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:49,440 But again, how was that? How is that even possible? 816 00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:54,200 That was possible because we decided that that's giving our 817 00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:58,080 data to all these these types of companies is a good thing. 818 00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:03,120 And instead of having personal relationships just among a small 819 00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:06,080 group of people, we suddenly decided to, to want to talk to 820 00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:09,440 the world. There have been, there have been 821 00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:12,360 plenty of benefits to Facebook, as I've said before, and, and, 822 00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:19,360 and that's a regeneration of, of Internet service, because ideas 823 00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:22,360 have propagated amongst people that would never have been 824 00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:24,280 exposed to them otherwise necessarily. 825 00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:29,240 But, but I'm not, I'm still very much not convinced that the 826 00:48:29,240 --> 00:48:33,760 benefits of outweighed the, the negatives at this point. 827 00:48:34,720 --> 00:48:39,560 I, I would be delighted to see Facebook not exist or Twitter or 828 00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:41,560 any of them. What, what we're seeing there 829 00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:43,120 is, is the influence of these guys. 830 00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:48,440 And, and you know, I'm very, very cynical about any of these 831 00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:53,200 big tech leaders, Zuckerbergs and Peter Thiel's of the world. 832 00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:58,560 A lot of these peoples have, OK, some of them have, some of the 833 00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:01,600 founders have come directly from the intelligence agencies. 834 00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:04,880 There's no question about that. But a lot of the influence that 835 00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:09,320 we see coming from the tech sector is from nerdy types that 836 00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:12,080 were probably bullied at school, that are probably have a very 837 00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:15,760 anti human view of the world. And, and if we want to see where 838 00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:19,320 the whole transhumanist agenda is coming from, it's coming from 839 00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:21,320 them. And when we start seeing them 840 00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:26,640 ending up at at a level where they are actually influencing 841 00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:30,400 presidents and prime ministers, that that is something I don't 842 00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:34,600 think anybody, very few people in the world are even conscious 843 00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:37,280 of. And, and they need to be 844 00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:40,600 conscious of it because, you know, if you want to merge with 845 00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:44,240 the machine, that's up to you. But but the destination ain't 846 00:49:44,240 --> 00:49:47,080 going to be nice. So, so, you know, if we're 847 00:49:47,080 --> 00:49:50,120 human, but we consider ourselves human beings to a certain 848 00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:56,240 degree, we've got to reject this merging with the machine that we 849 00:49:56,240 --> 00:50:00,560 are, even to the degree that we already have and, and relearn 850 00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:03,720 the, the basics. And that starts with 851 00:50:03,720 --> 00:50:05,600 regenerative farming. It starts with taking 852 00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:07,800 responsibility for own health. It starts with taking 853 00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:11,360 responsibility for our own navigation from one place to 854 00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:15,840 another and relearning skills that we lost because we're going 855 00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:19,840 to end up, you know, with, with a permanent connection. 856 00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:22,160 You know, wearables are going to be embedded soon. 857 00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:26,960 And well, exactly. And, and you know, the UK has 858 00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:31,360 just announced that that every newborn baby is going to be 859 00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:35,280 genomically sequenced. This is, this is just the next 860 00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:38,400 step along that road. We, we've seen this, this 861 00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:42,400 infrastructure building, the disinformation industrial 862 00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:44,000 complex, if we want to call it that. 863 00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:50,160 We've seen a building particularly since 20/15/2017. 864 00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:55,520 And we, we've seen the use of terms like post truth world. 865 00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:59,960 We've seen the use of terms like trust, who are trusted sources 866 00:50:59,960 --> 00:51:03,080 and so on. And, and it's very clear to me 867 00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:08,160 now that that AI is a part of this in a very big way. 868 00:51:08,480 --> 00:51:14,160 It is there ultimately, in my opinion, to so pollute the 869 00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:19,320 information space that people are going to be increasingly or 870 00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:23,640 they're going to be encouraged to rely on the trusted sources. 871 00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:26,560 And the trusted sources are going to be the BBC, for 872 00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:32,120 example, or CNN or the Guardian or the Times because they are 873 00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:36,240 the Orchard GBT. No, I don't think, I don't think 874 00:51:36,240 --> 00:51:39,440 that's, I don't think that is actually the ultimate 875 00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:43,560 destination here. I, I think that if, if you have 876 00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:48,720 an AI system which is hoovering up data from the Internet and 877 00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:52,760 spitting out answers, the purpose of that in fact is, is 878 00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:55,600 just to pollute the information space. 879 00:51:56,760 --> 00:52:00,520 Now what comes next? I, I, I don't know yet, but 880 00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:07,040 what, what we are going to see is, is the point where it's 881 00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:10,080 increasingly, it's already increase increasingly difficult 882 00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:12,280 to know what the truth is. But once we start seeing 883 00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:17,000 generative AI being seriously used and we start seeing videos 884 00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:19,800 appearing. I mean, for example, 2 videos 885 00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:23,480 that appeared recently that got people very excited were the one 886 00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:30,320 with the the guys on Macron and Co on the train who were 887 00:52:30,640 --> 00:52:32,880 possibly snorting something white. 888 00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:38,120 And then Georgie Maloney, who apparently was doing the same 889 00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:40,200 thing, although the Italian government seems to have said 890 00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:42,920 that she accidentally took a contaminated medication. 891 00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:48,040 But anyway, they, they were, there has been, you know, 892 00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:50,680 evidence of these people effectively being off their 893 00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:55,360 heads at various Times. Now, in the not too distant 894 00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:58,320 future, generative AI is going to get to the point of being 895 00:52:58,320 --> 00:53:00,960 able to produce videos like that, which look absolutely 896 00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:06,520 convincing. And for somebody that is outside 897 00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:10,760 of the system, it's going to be very, very hard to work out or 898 00:53:10,760 --> 00:53:13,760 discover whether that is a real thing or not. 899 00:53:14,040 --> 00:53:17,760 And I believe that's the main purpose of this version of AI 900 00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:19,640 that we're seeing at the moment, because we've got to remember 901 00:53:19,640 --> 00:53:21,800 there's nothing, it is artificial, but there's nothing 902 00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:25,480 intelligent about it. So this it's, it's a marketing 903 00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:28,960 exercise And but it's, it's, it's got a purpose at the end. 904 00:53:30,080 --> 00:53:33,640 And the purpose is to to so pollute the scene that, that 905 00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:37,720 we're going to not, not us specifically, but people are 906 00:53:37,720 --> 00:53:41,160 going to be encouraged to rely on the official sources as being 907 00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:43,400 the only reliable trustworthy source. 908 00:53:43,680 --> 00:53:47,280 So trust has been something trust coalition, the trust this, 909 00:53:47,280 --> 00:53:50,320 the trust project here, trust project there that's been trust 910 00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:54,120 is been developing over the last number of years and we're going 911 00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:59,240 to see that accelerate. And so so that that's, you know, 912 00:53:59,240 --> 00:54:03,280 that's that's basically I think where we're going and and we we 913 00:54:03,280 --> 00:54:05,880 got to start thinking about how we're going to deal with that 914 00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:08,520 now do. You remember a few years ago 915 00:54:08,520 --> 00:54:15,120 when Jacinda Ardern said on TV that the government should be 916 00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:19,480 the primary source of truth? Yes I do. 917 00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:25,120 Maybe that was a fake video. No, she didn't that that No, 918 00:54:25,520 --> 00:54:28,960 well, well, you think she did, but maybe it was generatively 919 00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:33,440 generative there. No, I, I believe she did say 920 00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:36,600 that and I and I think that is giving an insight into exactly 921 00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:39,120 what's in their minds. It really does. 922 00:54:39,240 --> 00:54:40,640 And this. Is this is something that people 923 00:54:40,640 --> 00:54:43,600 have got to start appreciating that, that that a lot, that 924 00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:49,240 large proportion of what they see is, is intended to create a 925 00:54:49,240 --> 00:54:52,360 it is applied psychology being used as intended to create, 926 00:54:52,480 --> 00:54:55,800 create a psychological effect on somebody who's intended to make 927 00:54:56,160 --> 00:54:59,880 behavioural change behavioural insights, behavioural this that. 928 00:54:59,880 --> 00:55:04,200 And the other isn't about encouraging people to take a 929 00:55:04,200 --> 00:55:07,000 vaccine that that certainly was used for that. 930 00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:10,840 But it's it's much it's, it's much more broadly used than just 931 00:55:10,840 --> 00:55:14,680 that rather limited thing. This is something that that we 932 00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:21,360 are, that we are being bombarded with on a daily basis, every 933 00:55:21,360 --> 00:55:24,520 minute of the day. And, and the idea is to drive 934 00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:27,640 people in particular directions. And that applies to the 935 00:55:28,080 --> 00:55:30,520 so-called freedom movement as much as anybody else. 936 00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:35,640 That the one of the real issues with social media is, is the 937 00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:38,520 data collection aspect of it, as you say. 938 00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:43,160 And, and the, they, they have been for, for many, many years 939 00:55:43,160 --> 00:55:44,640 now from the, from the beginning. 940 00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:48,360 That's why it was set up in the first place, pushing out little 941 00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:52,760 bits of information just to see how people react to those it. 942 00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:54,360 But it's done in a scientific way. 943 00:55:54,360 --> 00:55:57,200 It is a scientific dictatorship that we're we're in a 944 00:55:57,200 --> 00:56:01,000 technocracy if you like. And so we've got to consider 945 00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:03,680 that every time we see something on on the Internet. 946 00:56:04,840 --> 00:56:09,520 Yeah, just with regard to ChatGPT, we'll probably only 947 00:56:09,520 --> 00:56:14,440 have the other AI stuff that you can ask questions to, apparently 948 00:56:14,440 --> 00:56:16,320 in the belief that it knows something. 949 00:56:17,360 --> 00:56:20,960 If you know people that do do this and do go to it for 950 00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:24,200 information that has any nuance to it, rather than, you know 951 00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:29,840 what colour is the stop traffic light, then ask it a question, 952 00:56:30,520 --> 00:56:35,560 let it give you the answer and then say to it that's not true 953 00:56:35,920 --> 00:56:43,560 and see what it does because it is being designed to be terribly 954 00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:47,440 polite. But it will concede absolutely 955 00:56:47,440 --> 00:56:49,800 that it hasn't got its right it right. 956 00:56:50,320 --> 00:56:54,560 So we'll say, Oh yes, of course, I failed to mention this that 957 00:56:54,560 --> 00:56:56,680 and the other and you just keep going, just keep going. 958 00:56:56,680 --> 00:56:59,560 That's not true, That's not true, that's not true. 959 00:56:59,800 --> 00:57:01,720 And see what it does. It's very interesting. 960 00:57:02,600 --> 00:57:06,760 So that would be my advice if you're tinkering around with it 961 00:57:06,760 --> 00:57:11,360 thinking is that can't, can this in any way provide information 962 00:57:11,720 --> 00:57:17,680 that is accurate in any way, a whole view of whatever it is 963 00:57:17,680 --> 00:57:19,880 you're asking about. But I would also say that if you 964 00:57:19,880 --> 00:57:24,280 know young people who are being encouraged to use it, tell them 965 00:57:24,280 --> 00:57:27,200 to do that. Just say that they're aware that 966 00:57:27,200 --> 00:57:29,880 if you do challenge it, it will just start casting around in 967 00:57:29,880 --> 00:57:33,880 other directions and try to pull in bits of information that it 968 00:57:33,880 --> 00:57:36,160 thinks you want. So that the, the whole idea is 969 00:57:36,160 --> 00:57:37,880 that it's, I've said this before. 970 00:57:38,080 --> 00:57:41,280 It can be like asking for directions in a place where 971 00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:42,520 there's not really a common language. 972 00:57:42,520 --> 00:57:45,600 And you say, is it that way? And you go yes, yes, yes. 973 00:57:45,600 --> 00:57:47,200 And then you say, is it that way in case? 974 00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:49,520 Yes, yes, yes. And it's the same thing. 975 00:57:49,520 --> 00:57:54,480 So it just wants to please and it wants you to continue to use 976 00:57:54,480 --> 00:57:56,240 it. So so challenge it and see what 977 00:57:56,240 --> 00:57:59,080 happens. Gentlemen, thank you for joining 978 00:57:59,080 --> 00:58:00,760 me in in the weekly banter.