1 00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:18,920 Good morning, Charles. You made it. 2 00:00:19,080 --> 00:00:20,280 I did. I made it. 3 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:21,200 Yeah. Thank you. 4 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:22,800 Yeah. I think we're allowed to say to 5 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:26,400 the viewers it's been pretty interesting weather down here in 6 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:29,760 the West Country and you had a pretty wet drive down motorways 7 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:32,200 flooded. Yes, motorways flooded. 8 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:34,240 It was, it was, it was, it was pretty bad. 9 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:38,240 On the upside, it gave more time to ruminate on the subject 10 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:40,320 matter for today. So let's let's take the 11 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:42,360 positives. But yeah, it was it was very 12 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:43,800 hairy. It does. 13 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:46,680 I think it relates to what we're going to talk about because 14 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:50,520 there are instances like this. There was, I was on the M5, 15 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:54,880 there was a, there was a serious accident on the other 16 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:58,240 carriageway and I, I couldn't tell what had happened. 17 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:02,680 But, but it does, you know, it, it, that requires a response 18 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:05,600 that requires a response of people who know what they're 19 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:07,920 doing and who are able to deal with it. 20 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:11,720 And I think this goes to the heart of a lot of what we have 21 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:14,120 already talked about on military matters, but probably what we 22 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:18,840 will talk about today, you know, this, this matching of people to 23 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:23,000 situations and, and scenarios, although of course that wasn't 24 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:25,680 that was Ganic's not quite the right word. 25 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:28,160 But but you know, there was, there was no intent there. 26 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:31,080 It was a an accident caused by presumably bad weather and bad 27 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:32,720 driving. No one was trying to do it. 28 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:38,040 I think what we have to walk our way around today and through 29 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:42,000 this series is what is happening, if anything, sort of 30 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:46,360 organically and what is being created and therefore what are 31 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:49,400 the responses to it. So I that might be a slightly 32 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:53,960 uncomfortable analogy to make, but but you know, we'll give it 33 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:55,320 a go. No, it's great. 34 00:01:55,920 --> 00:02:00,080 Well, I, I found my head deep into military matters. 35 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:03,480 I was I was looking at doing a bit of research last night, 36 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:07,360 getting back into the swing of it, having a reread parts of the 37 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:11,480 strategic defence review. And then this morning I found 38 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:15,960 myself having a look at a little video that Doctor Fiona Hill, 39 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:19,680 who's one of the three authors of that defence review. 40 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:25,400 So we've got Lord Robertson, General Barons and Doctor Fiona 41 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:28,360 Hill. And I, I hadn't thought about it 42 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:29,920 before. Who is this lady? 43 00:02:29,920 --> 00:02:32,880 So she's chancellor of Durham University. 44 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:36,600 She's a Russian and European geopolitical expert. 45 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:44,120 She's provided advice to three US presidents, George W Bush, 46 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:50,760 Obama and Trump himself. And I was just listening to her 47 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:52,560 clip. She was talking about South 48 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:55,680 three years ago. She was talking about Russia. 49 00:02:56,120 --> 00:03:01,320 And I just found her statements very scripted for somebody who 50 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:03,800 was supposed to be a deep analyst. 51 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:08,320 She was talking in very simplistic sound bites. 52 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:11,600 And one of the ones that I winced at was she said, well, 53 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:16,040 and of course the Russians have been conducting, were conducting 54 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:19,960 exercises in relation to Ukraine. 55 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:25,480 And these are sort of offensive exercises. 56 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:28,880 The implication was so we knew what was happening, but when we 57 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:32,920 conduct exercises, they're always defensive exercises. 58 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:37,360 And I, I just thought, is this really the level of the 59 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:41,120 intellect that was putting together our strategic defence 60 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:42,720 review? I don't know what you'd say 61 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:44,160 about that. Well, I think, yeah, I think 62 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:45,680 that's a really interesting point. 63 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:51,080 I'm again having looked into her background and her particularly 64 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:53,760 her position on Russia to a certain extent as well. 65 00:03:54,240 --> 00:04:02,680 I think as well as a reduction of the intellectual scrutiny of 66 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:06,720 Russia in its current form and historically. 67 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:11,800 There's also a great emotional thread running through what she 68 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:16,200 says. And OK, I of course I concede, 69 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:21,240 but to be described as a Russia expert, if you speak Russian and 70 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:24,880 you've spent time in Russia, that adds weight to your 71 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:27,320 credentials. But at the same time, if you 72 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:29,960 decide through that period of time of having learnt Russian 73 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:33,520 and spent time in Russia, which she has done, that actually you 74 00:04:34,280 --> 00:04:39,120 have become disenchanted or you decide that you don't like 75 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:42,640 Russia and what Russia is doing and you feel that you're well 76 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:44,720 justified in your position because you've been there and 77 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:49,800 you know, then that creates well, or rather that reduces 78 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:51,920 your objectivity. So it's a sort of, it's a double 79 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:55,240 edged sword to be described as an expert, but also then to 80 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:57,320 bring what looks like emotion into it. 81 00:04:57,320 --> 00:05:00,360 And I think that's exactly what's happened in the strategic 82 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:03,400 defence review in particular. She's, I mean, I've, I think 83 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:05,760 I've quoted this on the news program, you know, on the 84 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:08,800 emotional side of it, she has directly compared Hitler with, 85 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:11,200 oh, sorry, Putin with Hitler in the past. 86 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:14,240 So it's all, it's very much about the individual and, and, 87 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:16,400 and that kind of thing. And again, exactly like you say 88 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:20,880 when she when when you see that she has been set against set 89 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:26,160 alongside Robertson and Barons, both of whom in effect stand to 90 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:32,320 gain from the actions that are very obviously forecast by the 91 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:35,320 defence review. Baron's in so far as his defence 92 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:38,960 consulting company is concerned and his particular interest in 93 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:43,320 sort of cyber and AI and then Robertson being involved with 94 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:46,240 the current group. So that the the conflicts of 95 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:51,240 interest as well as the points that you make are suggestive to 96 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:53,680 me that these three people should never have been let 97 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:57,720 anyone near the defence review. And, and I know I, you know, I 98 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:01,600 remember we did talk about this in the, in the last episode of 99 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:04,560 Military Matters. And I think that stands the test 100 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:05,840 of time. We recorded that back in late 101 00:06:05,840 --> 00:06:09,440 September 2025 and the situation has evolved now. 102 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:12,480 But I think what's interesting is that it to us, because we are 103 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:15,160 keeping our eyes on it, I think it, you know, we can see 104 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:17,720 absolutely, or at least we believe we can see the direction 105 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:21,520 that it's going in. I think for the general public I 106 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:25,400 would regard this as a as a very clever psychological shaping 107 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:31,120 operation and slowly, slowly, incrementally, people are being 108 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:34,920 moved into a position where they can see that there would be a 109 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:39,800 justification for an engagement of sorts with Russia. 110 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:43,480 And that links exactly back to what you're saying and Fiona 111 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:48,360 Hill in particular, inserting her prejudice and narrative into 112 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:50,320 that defence review. Yeah. 113 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:53,440 And, and one of the things that we could pull out the defence 114 00:06:53,440 --> 00:07:00,680 review to support that position is the fact that they're talking 115 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:03,960 about the need for national engagement. 116 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:08,520 We, we, they're not going quite as far as saying we need to get 117 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:13,240 into a full war footing, but they, the document is clearly 118 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:17,360 saying that we've got to fully engage industry, we've got to 119 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:21,320 fully engage the UK public, we've got to recruit. 120 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:25,760 So we'll say it's one level down, but it's not saying, well, 121 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:31,280 we've got to have strong armed forces that exist from within 122 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:36,080 and alongside the nation state. We're now pumping out 123 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:40,360 documentation suggesting that the whole nation has to get on 124 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:45,080 board because in the future we might have to front, we might 125 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:47,800 have to fight Russia. Absolutely. 126 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:51,040 And again, I think that's that's it's one of the building blocks. 127 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:55,200 And I think, you know, again, I was sort of considering two, 128 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:58,120 well, I suppose two sides of the same coin. 129 00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:02,320 If we look at history and we've referred to this before, but we 130 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:08,560 look at the the build up to and the progression into the 1st and 131 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:11,280 2nd wars and how there were great similarities. 132 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:13,680 One things that in fact I'm going to be writing about 133 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:19,080 hopefully this week is how the emergency, the state of 134 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:22,000 emergency is first of all created and then exploited. 135 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:25,680 And just as a, as an example, I think I've got the figure right. 136 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:29,160 I look this up and I, I think between the years 1939 and 137 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:34,919 194541 pieces of general legislation, 41 general acts 138 00:08:34,919 --> 00:08:37,799 that came onto the statute book during that period were 139 00:08:37,799 --> 00:08:39,960 predicated on emergency. So they were, they were 140 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:42,760 basically emergency powers. Now how many of those were 141 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:45,440 rescinded or repealed at the end of the war I haven't yet got 142 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:48,080 into, but I should think it would be, it would be very few. 143 00:08:48,560 --> 00:08:52,920 And here we are beginning of 2026, we are yet to see 144 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:56,720 emergency legislation, but the the current armed forces bill, 145 00:08:56,920 --> 00:09:00,880 which is going to be changing the at the moment, just the 146 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:03,760 details around the call up or the ability of the armed forces 147 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:09,760 to call up reservists and to increase the age at which people 148 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:12,280 may be called up. And all the you know, that there 149 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:18,160 are there are many, many things pointing very strongly towards a 150 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:22,120 big echo with what was happening in in the wars that I've just 151 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:24,520 described. The other thing, which I think 152 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:31,480 is an interesting, if somewhat intellectual academic point is 153 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:37,800 if there is to be conflict with Russia then, and indeed this is 154 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:40,760 how it's been described in Ukraine, what does winning look 155 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:43,400 like? We're, we're always told that, 156 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:47,680 oh, well, if it weren't for what we did in the second war, we'd 157 00:09:47,680 --> 00:09:51,000 all be speaking German. So that that that's the sort of, 158 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:53,640 well, that's what the result of losing the Second World War 159 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:58,560 would have been. What is the result of losing a 160 00:09:58,560 --> 00:10:04,520 war with Russia now? And I think it's difficult to 161 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:08,680 point to there being much of A distinction between winning or 162 00:10:08,680 --> 00:10:12,280 losing in that if we use this, what I'm describing the sort of 163 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:17,680 the, the, the emergency situation and we see how Ukraine 164 00:10:17,680 --> 00:10:20,640 being an excellent case study, how, how what's happened, there 165 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:26,040 is a massive push towards a digital infrastructure because 166 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:30,960 there's an emergency, the utter destruction of democracy. 167 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:36,480 OK, arguable that it was a poor relation to any sort of 168 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:39,400 democracy that we might describe, although that's that's 169 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:41,960 another minefield. But, but, but the point is that 170 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:46,360 that you've got the all these elements pointing very strongly 171 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:49,960 towards actually, does it make any difference whether you 172 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:54,760 supposedly win or you supposedly lose the outcome because of the 173 00:10:55,480 --> 00:11:00,480 combined interests of governments and corporations are 174 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:03,640 all really pushing us in in the same direction. 175 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:07,000 And then I think on the other side of it, you've got the armed 176 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:09,240 forces. You know, the view from the 177 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:13,520 armed forces in in the United Kingdom at the minute, I think 178 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:20,040 is that the situation is so poor that a war is needed in order to 179 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:25,200 improve the situation in in order to make the armed forces 180 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:26,880 do what they're supposed to be able to do. 181 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:29,480 So there are so many reasons, sorry. 182 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:32,040 And then the other one, the other big one obviously 183 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:35,360 enormously is, is that the, the defence industry absolutely 184 00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:36,840 requires it. You know, there's been this, 185 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:40,880 this enormous commitment in terms of the defence spend. 186 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:42,280 Well, that's got to be justified. 187 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:46,080 So there's so many reasons that suggest that we sort of we 188 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:47,960 should have a war. But but as I say, the question 189 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:50,400 is, well, what, what would happen? 190 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:53,960 What would the result be? Lots of lots of points there. 191 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:59,680 There is there is a lot for discussion over this just coming 192 00:11:59,680 --> 00:12:01,280 in a slightly different direction. 193 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:07,040 I rereading the Strategic Defence review I I found myself 194 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:12,080 1 coming back on the use of language throughout. 195 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:15,360 So you, you read the strategic defence review and to my mind, 196 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:23,480 it's full of phrases and jargon and statements about what is 197 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:27,680 going to be done, but there's no clarity in, in what that 198 00:12:27,680 --> 00:12:30,440 actually means. It's it, it's, it's lots of 199 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:34,680 buzzwords, it's lots of OK terminology. 200 00:12:34,680 --> 00:12:37,080 We're going to be fighting fit to win. 201 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:41,560 So these are little sound bites that of course the politicians 202 00:12:41,560 --> 00:12:44,360 can stand up in the in front of the camera and talk about. 203 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:46,840 But if you actually say what does this mean? 204 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:50,120 And I can't get a meaning out of it. 205 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:52,680 What do I introduce from the document? 206 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:58,080 Coming back in at it is, is huge confusion because we live in a 207 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:03,760 country where the whole of our ability to produce and 208 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:08,120 particularly produce and sustain military operations has all been 209 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:12,320 hollowed out. And I've deliberately used that 210 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:15,160 terminology because that's appeared quite a lot in the 211 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:18,520 national press, that our military has been hollowed out. 212 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:22,520 So we look at the country and the whole of the support bases 213 00:13:22,680 --> 00:13:25,800 has been stripped out. We can't manufacture steel. 214 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:28,640 We can't. Until recently we were not 215 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:32,040 producing munitions and ammunition in any quantity. 216 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:36,040 We're producing ships, but we don't produce aircraft. 217 00:13:36,560 --> 00:13:40,720 And then we've ended up with the smallest army in 300 years, I 218 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:45,600 think it is at around 7072 thousand. 219 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:51,840 So world politics has been going on with the same politicians. 220 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:55,040 Lord Robertson's been there in the background and he's now part 221 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:58,880 part at the age of 79. He's now in this strategic 222 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:02,120 defence review. But the country's ability to 223 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:05,400 produce and particularly produce in house has been completely 224 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:09,040 hollowed out. And then we have a strategic 225 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:12,000 defence review that says, Oh my goodness, we're, we're in a real 226 00:14:12,680 --> 00:14:15,680 dangerous position here because those nasty Russians are going 227 00:14:15,680 --> 00:14:19,960 to invade and we've got to invest in the country in our own 228 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:23,360 production. But if you, if you take 229 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:27,040 procurement, although the government is, is talking about 230 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:33,400 something like 87% procurement from within UK, that doesn't 231 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:36,600 mean what the government is buying in a military sense is 232 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:40,680 AUK product because they're not tracking through the supply 233 00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:44,120 lines as to where the manufactured product actually 234 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:46,560 comes from. So if they're choosing a missile 235 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:50,240 system and they're going to say, well, it's, it's produced in 236 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:53,480 house by British or it's produced by British Aerospace, 237 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:57,560 The reality is that missile doesn't get produced unless 238 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:00,640 components come in from overseas. 239 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:02,800 That might be America or that might be Europe. 240 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:06,440 So the government is now caught in its own trap. 241 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:12,920 It's hollowed the country's ability to produce weapons, 242 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:17,320 missile systems, it shut down the Royal Ordnance Factories 243 00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:22,400 that were producing armour, and now it's suddenly saying, Oh 244 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:24,880 well, if it's going to work properly we've got to be in 245 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:27,680 house. So that's one conundrum. 246 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:31,280 And then of course, we've got another major one because in the 247 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:35,200 document it is largely saying, well, we're not going to fight 248 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:36,760 on our own. We're going to fight within 249 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:39,480 NATO. But Oh dear, we've now got a bit 250 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:44,080 of a a bit of a problem with NATO because Trump has shown 251 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:48,560 that he could, if he wanted to pull America out of NATO. 252 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:52,240 And where would that leave us because we're no longer strong 253 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:57,080 enough on our own. And then the other thing in the 254 00:15:57,080 --> 00:16:01,360 background that doesn't really get dealt with in the strategic 255 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:04,920 defence review itself is the engagement with Europe. 256 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:08,560 Because much as we've said, Brexit, Brexit has brought us 257 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:13,600 out from the European Union. The reality is everywhere you 258 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:16,720 look, we're locked into agreements with the European 259 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:22,560 Union with respect to defence. And the situation is now so 260 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:27,680 complex that the government's making this statement as to what 261 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:31,680 it wants to achieve. The position that you're 262 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:35,000 suggesting we're, we're on a semi war footing with Russia. 263 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:38,800 But actually it can't implement it because all of the other 264 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:43,920 policies have destroyed our ability to operate, operate 265 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:48,560 alone. So I see this document as being 266 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:53,680 not only a huge, sorry, the strategic defence review as not 267 00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:58,840 only being a huge psychological operation on the British public, 268 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:05,880 but it is also drowning in its own confusion because it now 269 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:10,920 exists in a political, let's say European geopolitical world for 270 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:16,640 Doctor Fiona Hill, that prevents us as a nation state from 271 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:22,400 performing in a military sense. Little bit long winded, but I I 272 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:25,400 don't know whether you'd know you know where I'm coming. 273 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:28,760 From yeah, absolutely. Well, I, I think that I think 274 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:36,400 that ties in with with this question of sorry, what, what 275 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:41,120 war would look like and whether there is some sort of metric 276 00:17:41,120 --> 00:17:43,960 that determines whether or not we're winning or losing, which 277 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:48,040 is why we we sort of asked the question, are we well, and I 278 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:51,000 think we agree that we that we are in in many ways at war. 279 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:53,600 But when we say but but what is we? 280 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:58,240 Because in actual fact exactly like you say, the control and 281 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:04,760 the profit is very obviously held by multinational 282 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:08,400 corporations. And therefore there there is, I 283 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:11,840 would say a marked difference from certainly any large scale 284 00:18:12,360 --> 00:18:16,760 conflict that we've had within what might be described as 285 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:23,360 living memory in that the advance of the technical digital 286 00:18:23,360 --> 00:18:27,960 side of things means that you no longer buy a piece of hardware 287 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:32,200 and in doing so take complete control and ownership of it. 288 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:37,000 You might physically have the thing, whether it be a weapon 289 00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:41,400 system or a an armored platform or whatever it is, but in actual 290 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:46,480 fact, the proprietary technology that makes that thing work is 291 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:50,920 owned and can be controlled from somewhere else. 292 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:54,040 Now that's a very, very dangerous position to be in if 293 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:56,000 you're just looking through a military lens. 294 00:18:56,320 --> 00:18:58,960 But I think we can't really look just through a military lens. 295 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:03,360 And this is where we're we're having to reevaluate the idea of 296 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:06,800 of warfare and exactly what it might involve. 297 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:10,600 Now, I think that there, and I think we talked about this last 298 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:12,840 time, you know, the idea of sort of boots on the ground and 299 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:16,960 whatnot will always be a factor. I think that I think that has to 300 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:21,800 happen because it's impossible to run the PR campaign without 301 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:24,560 it. You can't, you can't not have 302 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:29,000 the photographs of troop ships or people getting on aircraft, 303 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:31,960 whatever it is you, you've got to have that bit to sell to the 304 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:38,520 public, the idea that there is a national emergency, a threat to 305 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:41,840 our security, but that we are providing a sort of plucky 306 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:44,040 response. But in actual fact, that 307 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:47,560 obscures first of all, the fact that an awful lot of the 308 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:50,280 activity is being conducted behind the scenes because it's 309 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:57,680 it's either the preserve of the intelligence agencies or it's 310 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:01,600 being given over to people who are running things remotely. 311 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:05,080 We've talked about the two obvious ones being sort of cyber 312 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:10,880 AI warfare, one of a better word and indeed drone operation. 313 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:18,480 So yes, I mean, I think. I think that the the way in 314 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:22,920 which we look at all of it has to be has to be completely 315 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:26,520 different. I think also the other thing 316 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:30,640 that's come out from very obviously directly from the 317 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:33,480 strategic defence review is exactly like you say, 318 00:20:34,360 --> 00:20:41,000 particularly from Fiona Hill, is the idea that that Russia is 319 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:46,440 with beyond question bad and intends US harm and is a is a 320 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:48,200 threat and, and all this sort of thing. 321 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:51,560 Obviously every single protestation and communication 322 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:55,600 from Russia indicates not exactly the opposite. 323 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:59,880 But I mean, there's sort of, you know, well, fine, talk it up if 324 00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:05,040 you want, but we have absolutely no intent of presenting any kind 325 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:09,160 of threat to your to your country and, and that kind of 326 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:11,520 thing. But also the accusation, and 327 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:14,120 this came out just before Christmas, a very interesting 328 00:21:14,120 --> 00:21:19,680 sort of twin attack from Blaze Metro Welly, the new head of 329 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:22,880 Secret Intelligence Service, and of course, the granddaughter of 330 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:26,520 Constantin Dobrovolski, the Nazi collaborator. 331 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:29,320 So her family history is interesting to say the least for 332 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:31,960 somebody who's heading up our Secret Intelligence Service. 333 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:34,880 And Richard Knighton, the head of the armed forces, the chief 334 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:37,160 of defence staff. And they, they, they spoke, 335 00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,000 forget what it was either on the same day or day apart. 336 00:21:40,360 --> 00:21:42,880 And there the messages were, were exactly the same, which is 337 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:46,480 that, you know, we've, we've looked at everything now and 338 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:49,800 Russia is, is absolutely presenting an existential threat 339 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:51,280 to us. And that, and I think that is 340 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:54,280 completely an extension of the, of the defence review. 341 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:57,720 And, and it's, you know, it's pointing in a direction that I 342 00:21:57,720 --> 00:21:59,720 think is much more subtle than the idea of right. 343 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:01,720 Well, we just need queues of people at recruiting offices. 344 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:05,120 I think there are many more ways in which this is going to work 345 00:22:05,120 --> 00:22:07,960 because as I say, going back to your, your point about 346 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:13,960 equipment, the, the commitment to, on that spend is going to 347 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:16,120 deliver something that is ultimately owned by 348 00:22:16,360 --> 00:22:18,600 corporations. This is going to be more than 349 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:22,000 ever before, I think a war that's conducted by people in 350 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:25,360 offices and the other side to that. 351 00:22:25,360 --> 00:22:28,080 It's just an irony. But I thought I'd mention it is 352 00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:30,760 that last year, you know, at the end of 2025, we had the Ministry 353 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:36,160 of Defence bragging that 2025 is a record year for what what's 354 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:39,240 being described as defense exports from this country. 355 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:44,240 So we can't we, we can make kit and flog it to goodness knows 356 00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:45,720 where. Because when I asked where it 357 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,360 had all gone, they said, oh, it's too sensitive to tell you, 358 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:50,480 even though they're going to say we've, we've done it. 359 00:22:51,360 --> 00:22:55,440 And at at that same time, we don't have the kits that we 360 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:57,880 apparently need. So to say there's, there's, you 361 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:01,000 know, a huge element of just mud to the whole thing as well. 362 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:04,000 Yeah. And is it just muddle an 363 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:06,680 incompetence or is it created muddle? 364 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,640 And I think to a large extent the hollowing out has been 365 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:16,000 deliberate by these agencies who've got plans for a rock in 366 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:18,160 the pond above national government. 367 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:25,440 So there's definitely muddle and there's definitely the strong 368 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:28,880 intent to create fear in the nation state because if we if we 369 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:33,000 say what would Russia actually need to invade the whole of 370 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:38,160 Western Europe, we would be back talking about armies of millions 371 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:44,120 of men, millions not, not, not 200,400 thousand. 372 00:23:44,120 --> 00:23:45,800 We'd be talking about millions of men. 373 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:53,200 And the conflict in Ukraine has already demonstrated, to my mind 374 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:56,200 at least, I'm, I'm not an army man, I'm a Navy man. 375 00:23:56,200 --> 00:24:00,760 But to me it's clearly demonstrated that that the age 376 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:06,160 of the rapid advance with armoured vehicles is over. 377 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:09,560 Because if you look at what's happened in Ukraine, the moment 378 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:14,000 armoured vehicles are effectively in the open, and 379 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:17,200 even when they're not in the in the open, they are being 380 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,560 destroyed by drones, kamikaze drones. 381 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:27,400 So large scale full frontal armoured assaults seem to me to 382 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:32,840 be out and the Russians are clearly winning in Ukraine, but 383 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:37,160 they're doing it by very small incremental troop movements. 384 00:24:38,120 --> 00:24:42,600 And this then further demonstrates that the the 385 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:47,320 opportunity to invade hundreds of miles West into Western 386 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:51,640 Europe is simply not credible. I mean, Putin is saying to the 387 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:55,720 world anyway, we, as you've just said, we've no intent, intention 388 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:59,920 of, of, of attacking your countries or invading the 389 00:24:59,920 --> 00:25:03,320 European Union. But in reality, the evidence is 390 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:06,040 all there that you simply can't do this. 391 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,920 And, and they would need to do that in order to have the troops 392 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:12,880 on the ground to control Western Europe. 393 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:16,720 So the fear factor which is coming out of the intelligence 394 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:21,920 services and the likes of Doctor Fiona Hill and presumably her 395 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:26,200 colleagues, is just astonishing. It's astonishing. 396 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,640 It is, I absolutely agree. And I think that's, that's 397 00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:34,800 really why I mentioned the corporate element, because it, 398 00:25:35,120 --> 00:25:41,720 it seems if you look at it through that lens, then the idea 399 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:45,080 that Russia is an enemy makes sense. 400 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:48,760 Because let's say we have, you know, across our three armed 401 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:55,080 forces, we have an amazing array of, I suppose we, we don't, but 402 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:56,960 you know what I mean? We have, we have an incredible 403 00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:03,280 array of equipment and capabilities that are made by 404 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:05,800 all sorts of corporations all over the world. 405 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:09,920 You know, we don't, we, we do not have a line in so far as 406 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,000 ethics are concerned as to where we get kit from. 407 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:17,520 Really the, the government will talk about not dealing with say 408 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:22,320 North Korea or Iran or whatever, but really actually what they 409 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,920 mean is, is Russia and to a certain extent China, I would 410 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:32,640 say. And so the, the fact that Russia 411 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:38,480 is able to run again, what's described, I would say 412 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:41,560 erroneously or, or euphemistically as a, as a 413 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:45,080 defence industry, OK, it's, it's a war industry. 414 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:48,080 It's it's purely designed to to kill people. 415 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:55,840 But the idea that the United Kingdom is procuring equipment 416 00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:00,840 solely for the benefit of the national security or the 417 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,600 sovereignty of the United Kingdom is is a farce. 418 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:09,360 Well, we've, we've, we've just had last month the announcement 419 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,440 of a missile system to be created with the Ukrainians. 420 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,800 Exactly, yes. Is that going to be the British 421 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:19,360 Ministry of Defence involved in that project, which suggests 422 00:27:19,360 --> 00:27:21,800 not. It's going to be Tales or 423 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:26,720 British Aerospace or that club of the military industrial 424 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,720 complex that's going to be working on that missile system. 425 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:32,520 Exactly. So, but but to your point about 426 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:37,080 about how, for example, how ground is taken or how armoured 427 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:41,800 vehicles in particular are used, of course, and I know this 428 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:45,320 sounds cynical, but I think realistic. 429 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:49,880 If those vehicles are not destroyed in in the way that 430 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:55,200 they may be now, or if they are not destroying something 431 00:27:55,400 --> 00:28:00,080 significant in return, then then the the wheels, the corporate 432 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,360 wheels don't turn in the way that they're supposed to. 433 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:05,680 That, you know, I think that's the way we have to consider it. 434 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,360 This stuff, this stuff is being made. 435 00:28:08,360 --> 00:28:09,720 A lot of it is being made just OK. 436 00:28:10,120 --> 00:28:15,360 A lot of projectiles, Ballistics and whatnot are being made in 437 00:28:15,360 --> 00:28:18,760 order to be able to be fired elsewhere. 438 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:20,160 But otherwise, you have to take the view. 439 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:22,440 I mean, not exactly like the planned obsolescence with light 440 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,400 bulbs. Military hardware is is being 441 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:28,360 made to be destroyed because otherwise those companies cannot 442 00:28:28,360 --> 00:28:30,920 continue to make it. If we made tanks. 443 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:33,520 Yeah, it is. I mean, and This is why I go 444 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:37,440 back to this idea that that war is, is, is necessary. 445 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:40,080 You know, we we spoke in our last episode. 446 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,280 We spoke a little bit around this because then we just had 447 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:48,120 that NATO summit where we took not hanging on about 5% and they 448 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:50,720 were hammering out this, you know, 5% this that and the other 449 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:53,120 of course that that was absolute smoke and mirrors because they 450 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:55,280 they were not at all upfront about how they were going to 451 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:57,400 achieve 5%. And in fact, when you look at 452 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,040 the way the pie was sliced, there was an awful lot of, of 453 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,280 chicanery going on there. But, but nonetheless, the point 454 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:03,720 is that that is totally arbitrary. 455 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:05,680 And, and I, and I made this point last time, you know, what, 456 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:07,280 what the heck does that actually deliver? 457 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:12,520 If it, or if we spent 10%, we spent 10% now on, on so-called 458 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:15,560 defence and we had every little bit of shiny kit that we needed. 459 00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,920 What does that mean that then Russia ceases to be a threat or 460 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:22,720 that Ukraine is somehow sort of, you know, saved? 461 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:26,480 I mean, there's no, no one can articulate what that means. 462 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:29,960 But but then, you know, all you have to do is just look over 463 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:32,600 the, the side of the fence, say, oh, right, OK, so now, so now 464 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:37,360 the, the, the defence corporations all over the world 465 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:41,760 have have made their billions. They now need to keep that, keep 466 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,160 that turning. And then, and This is why this 467 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:48,960 is this sort of, you know, hand in glove thing with governments 468 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,720 being able to seize upon this opportunity in order to be able 469 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:57,800 to further subjugate populations via legislation and and sweeping 470 00:29:57,800 --> 00:29:59,160 policy changes. And I mean, you know, if this 471 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:04,440 sounds, if this sounds fanciful, then then I mean all you need do 472 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:09,440 is go to legislation.gov.uk and look at what changed during in 473 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,800 particular the 1st and 2nd world wars. 474 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:14,560 You know, I'm not making this stuff up. 475 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:18,120 It's exactly what happens. And you know, in the same way 476 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:21,440 that we will say, you know, you can't comply your way out of 477 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:26,560 authoritarianism, it's none of this stuff ever gets ever gets 478 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:30,120 scaled back down. So This is why I do go to the 479 00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:34,200 point of sort of there, there needing to be a war and and the 480 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:40,960 the, the, the, the only obstacle really is the public's response 481 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:44,080 to this. And again, this is something 482 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:49,360 that the media are very, very well practiced in being able to 483 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:52,680 create the conditions under which people think. 484 00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:55,160 OK, yeah, now I'm now I'm on side. 485 00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:59,760 Now I can see why I would go and join Apple, whatever it is. 486 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:02,800 That, that's a really interesting point to get to 487 00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:06,320 because another of my observations on the strategic 488 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:08,720 defence review was, was about recruiting. 489 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:13,400 Because there's one small paragraph in there which it 490 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:18,800 doesn't say this, but it's intimating this, intimating this 491 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:23,920 is the senses there that unless we can recruit people, because 492 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:27,760 everything depends on having the personnel to operate the 493 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:32,600 systems, to sail the ships, to fly the aircraft, unless we get 494 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:37,600 the person, the people in, we've got a problem. 495 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,680 Now I, I did a quick check to see what had happened with 496 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:46,880 recruiting figures from from sort of autumn last year. 497 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:49,480 And we're still in a slow decline. 498 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:53,040 And this is where I think these people have got themselves in a 499 00:31:53,040 --> 00:32:00,800 trap again, because in Russia, something which I think has 500 00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:04,120 surprised the likes of Doctor Hill and her colleagues. 501 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,720 And I'm focusing in on her because half an hour ago I was 502 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:09,920 listening as to to speak about Russia. 503 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:15,040 Is the fact that is that not only is President Putin still 504 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:19,960 extremely popular even though we've now got war into the third 505 00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:24,560 year, 3rd year, fourth year? 4th year, 4th. 506 00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:32,720 Year he is recruiting in order to fight that war with 507 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:35,480 significant casualties. Nobody's saying the Russians 508 00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:37,520 aren't taking significant casualties because they 509 00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:41,840 absolutely are. But within Russia, across the 510 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:47,560 whole span of Russia, with all the different people types that 511 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:53,400 Russia comprises, there is still the willingness to fight for the 512 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:58,040 motherland. In contrast, in UK, recruiting 513 00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:03,520 is demonstrating that people don't feel motivated to fight 514 00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:13,080 for UK, for the motherland because they are now completely 515 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:16,520 unmotivated by what their own country has to offer. 516 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:19,640 They don't believe in the monarchy, they don't believe in 517 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:21,760 the, they don't believe in the government. 518 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:24,280 They certainly don't believe in politicians. 519 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:29,400 They're not even convinced happily yet that we need to go 520 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:33,880 to war with anybody. So you read the strategic 521 00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:38,880 defence review with all of its rhetoric about and focus on 522 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:40,960 Russia. And we're going to do this with 523 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:44,080 equipment and we're going to have, we're going to have this 524 00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:49,640 re resurgence in building equipment in house, etcetera, 525 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:52,040 etcetera. But oh, we haven't got the 526 00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:57,480 people and we haven't got the people in a huge way because as 527 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:03,800 the military gets smaller, so the experience base Withers away 528 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:08,600 and therefore you have not got the quality to teach people how 529 00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:13,159 the art of warfare. And I'll just add to that, that 530 00:34:13,159 --> 00:34:17,040 something else that I picked up in the Strategic Defence review 531 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:20,320 was the fact that it, it was saying, well, as far as 532 00:34:20,679 --> 00:34:23,880 education is concerned and teaching, and they're talking 533 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:27,920 about education and teaching recruits within the military, 534 00:34:28,199 --> 00:34:34,560 that's going to be outsourced. So another key thing, because in 535 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:40,040 in in my time in the Navy, when you looked at at young recruits 536 00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:44,960 coming in into the Navy, you could see the huge change that 537 00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:49,520 the Navy made in taking them from being a schoolboy to 538 00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:51,679 bringing them through basic training. 539 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:57,440 A lot of them needed education in that their mathematics skills 540 00:34:57,440 --> 00:34:59,760 weren't very good or their writing, reading and writing 541 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,520 even. And it was the military 542 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:06,280 instructors that worked with them to bring those skills up. 543 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:11,880 And what that was actually doing was, was giving those young 544 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:16,240 recruits a sense of values, not only in themselves, but in the 545 00:35:16,240 --> 00:35:19,640 military because they were interfacing with military 546 00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:22,160 people. Now we're going to outsource all 547 00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:24,840 that to Capita or whoever it's going to be. 548 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:31,440 And So what you're doing is, is even the serving people are not 549 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:36,040 rank and file. Serving people are not getting 550 00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:41,320 any sense of national identity or pride in the armed forces, 551 00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:46,680 all the all the things that that mean that they want to serve and 552 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:51,480 they stay in the armed forces. And of course, I always found it 553 00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:54,520 bizarre when the military started talking about people 554 00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:58,480 having a sort of gap year. You would serve for so long in 555 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,600 the military and then you'd go and work for boots and then you 556 00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,080 would come back in. I, I remember thinking this was 557 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:06,680 utterly bizarre when it was floated around the military. 558 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:12,400 Now that report is saying, well, no, this is what we're going to 559 00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:14,320 do. We want to encourage people to 560 00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:18,200 be gap year military people. And I'm thinking no, no, no, 561 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:22,000 because it's the fact that people are in a career for life. 562 00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:24,720 They want to serve. They want to. 563 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:28,320 This is what makes excellent professionals. 564 00:36:28,720 --> 00:36:32,680 So the people compiling that document, to my mind, don't even 565 00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:35,720 understand what you need to make a military work. 566 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:40,000 No, I mean I would quite agree if you, if you sort of take it 567 00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:42,000 at face value. But I think we, you know, we go 568 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:44,920 back to a question I was sort of examining at the start, which 569 00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:48,040 is, which is well, I suppose partly. 570 00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:50,600 Do we need to pay? Well, yes, that's part of it, 571 00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:53,720 but it's sort of what does, what does winning or losing actually 572 00:36:53,720 --> 00:36:55,960 look like? And do we are we supposed to be 573 00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:57,760 winning or are we supposed to be losing? 574 00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:01,680 Because if we, I think if we, if we look at the, the end state, 575 00:37:01,720 --> 00:37:04,680 you know, as one should and military planning, you know, 576 00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:07,160 what is the end state? What is the design tide end 577 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:10,440 state and therefore 1 step before that, what is your center 578 00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:11,280 of gravity? What are you? 579 00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:13,880 What do you what's the 1 mission critical activity you need to 580 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:17,560 achieve in order to fulfill that end state? 581 00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:22,840 And I have a hard time picking between sort of winning or 582 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:27,160 losing because because the point is to be able to create the 583 00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:29,680 conditions under which people are going to accept a change to 584 00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:33,440 their circumstances. And the introduction of I mean I 585 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:35,200 now keep saying it but but. Right. 586 00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:36,880 So we're we're going to fight the war. 587 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:39,440 We're not actually going to fight the war without our. 588 00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:42,320 Well, you see, I think I think there's, there are, there are 589 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:43,680 different sizes. I think it's a really 590 00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:45,760 interesting point you make about the about the people because 591 00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:48,520 again, we talked about this before quite right there. 592 00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:54,120 There are, I think amongst the those of sort of eligible age. 593 00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:57,240 I mean, in particular say that people who are coming into it, 594 00:37:57,240 --> 00:38:00,040 you know, 16 to 18 year olds now by and large. 595 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:02,640 Yeah, no, not, not interested for a variety of reasons. 596 00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:05,320 I think not interested probably because the just the idea of 597 00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:11,440 doing something which requires a certain degree of discomfort and 598 00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:14,880 sort of physical endurance. Yeah, exactly. 599 00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:17,200 I mean all of that. So on the one on the one hand, 600 00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:19,240 that might sound a bit damning and a bit unkind to say, but I 601 00:38:19,240 --> 00:38:21,200 think it is true. And I think we can point back to 602 00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:22,360 a lot of reasons why that would be. 603 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,680 And then I think on the other side is the what go, go and you 604 00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:28,640 know, get get slotted for Keir Starmer. 605 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:31,000 No thanks. And that again, I think is a 606 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:33,200 very interesting one because when we look at what's happening 607 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:37,240 now with Reform UK and again talked about it in the last 608 00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:42,080 episode, but the, the sort of creation and then riding a wave 609 00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:46,800 of, of nationalistic fervor, whatever you want to call it. 610 00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:51,240 And Farage now off to Davos to sort of wave his flag and say, 611 00:38:51,240 --> 00:38:54,040 you know, right, I'm yours. I'm I'm going to stick up for 612 00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:59,240 Britain and and whatnot. In actual fact, I think were 613 00:38:59,240 --> 00:39:02,480 there a change and this is this, this might have a few people 614 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:07,080 sort of balking slightly, but but you know, there are great 615 00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:10,000 parallels here with what was happening in 1930s Germany. 616 00:39:10,240 --> 00:39:16,680 The the rise of Hitler in the early stages was based on 617 00:39:17,720 --> 00:39:24,640 brilliant oratory and a very clever selection of a a way of 618 00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:30,640 unifying the country both economically and 619 00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:34,400 philosophically. And and this is what Farage is 620 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:35,920 doing. But you have to have your body 621 00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:41,440 and internally whilst for Hitler it was Jews not as far as I 622 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:43,680 believe. And I and I'm I'm setting quite 623 00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:47,120 a lot of story in the writings of David Irving, but and then 624 00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:49,800 this is from from Diaries, not just a pillar, but of those 625 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:52,040 surrounding him. It wasn't that he was has sort 626 00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:55,360 of pathological disposition against people of Jewish faith, 627 00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:57,880 but but rather more that he realized the political 628 00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:01,360 expediency in identifying a group of people that could be 629 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:06,640 pointed to as the problem in the same way that Reform and Farage 630 00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:12,000 have done with the in particular Muslim population of the United 631 00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:14,400 Kingdom. So the reason I'm talking about 632 00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:18,880 this is because I think that does potentially open 2 doors. 1 633 00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:21,480 is the. The, the idea that sort of 634 00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:24,120 migration and whatnot needs to be tackled in digital identity, 635 00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:25,520 Hey presto is the answer for that. 636 00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:29,640 But also because of the, the idea that right, well, we are, 637 00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:32,120 we are all Brits and those dastardly Russians are going to 638 00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:34,120 do something. So you know, are going to join 639 00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:36,640 up and you would fight for say, Farage. 640 00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:38,680 So I think you're absolutely right. 641 00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:40,960 You do need people, but probably not that many. 642 00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:44,880 And I go back to this idea of, of corporate and exactly what 643 00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:49,520 you're talking about with the the idea that packages of 644 00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:53,040 training or whatever can be delivered from outside the armed 645 00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:55,400 forces, which to you and I sounds utterly insane. 646 00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:59,520 But then actually, if you're thinking of where that goes and 647 00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:02,720 the idea that the control really is held outside of the armed 648 00:41:02,720 --> 00:41:04,720 forces for all the all the reasons that we referred to 649 00:41:04,720 --> 00:41:07,120 before, I think it sort of starts to make more sense. 650 00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:12,760 Yeah, yesterday I had I had a chat with Mike Robinson and. 651 00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:16,760 And I think I said to him, So what do you think's happening? 652 00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:22,000 And there were, there were some things discussed, but part of 653 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:25,520 that discussion was an emergence of fascism. 654 00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:30,120 And we're talking about UK and the West and, and that that was 655 00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:32,720 Mike's feeling on what we're saying. 656 00:41:32,720 --> 00:41:37,520 And you're intimating the the same thing here that we are. 657 00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:41,040 The main danger is actually coming from within the country 658 00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:44,680 and the attack on our constitution and our laws and 659 00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:46,400 our freedoms and our protections. 660 00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:52,360 But while you were talking about the rise of Hitler and Nazi 661 00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:56,840 Germany, into my head came a chat that Mike and I had many, 662 00:41:56,960 --> 00:42:01,320 many years ago, I think, in Bournemouth with a very elderly 663 00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:05,560 German lady who'd married an English soldier at the end of 664 00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:08,160 the Second World War and then come to live in UK. 665 00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:15,640 And of course at that, because I'm talking at least 10, maybe 666 00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:21,080 12 years ago, it was the EU which was seen as the big evil 667 00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:24,720 beast eating away at our constitution and freedoms. 668 00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:33,760 This elderly lady was very agitated and she said to us over 669 00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:36,640 a cup of tea, all this is happening. 670 00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:41,320 The freedoms are going. The state is taking control. 671 00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:46,080 And people can't see it. Why can't they see it? 672 00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:49,680 Why can't they see it? And then the next minute when 673 00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:52,800 she was talking about what she'd witnessed as the change of 674 00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:57,600 politics in Germany, she said, oh, but the thing about it was 675 00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:02,400 it emerged like the drip, drip, drip of an anaesthetic. 676 00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:07,400 And then she she said and, and one of the things I remembered 677 00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:12,080 and I always hated was that more and more officials were given 678 00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:16,280 the right to enter your home and more and more people doing 679 00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:20,960 ordinary jobs were put in a a uniform. 680 00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:25,480 And I'm recounting that now after all these years. 681 00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:28,560 But it was immensely powerful because there was that elderly 682 00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:32,840 late she was later, I think she was bombed out into German 683 00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:35,640 cities. Hamburg was one. 684 00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:38,160 I can't remember where the other one was, where she she was in 685 00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:43,400 Berlin or not, but but it very poignant stories. 686 00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:45,280 But I thought, my goodness, you know. 687 00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:49,640 So you think about the change always being a stark change that 688 00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:53,840 you could see. But she described the evolution 689 00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:57,880 of the Nazi project as a drip, drip drippers of an anaesthetic. 690 00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:02,600 That's what we're seeing on we're we're sensing this through 691 00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:04,960 some of these documents. I think absolutely. 692 00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:09,000 And I think I think what, what sets this in some perspective is 693 00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:12,920 the, in some ways, what was a, you might say is a dress 694 00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:16,560 rehearsal, but but actually was conducted in such a way as to 695 00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:20,320 alert people perhaps beyond the level that they should have been 696 00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:22,680 alerted. And that was the COVID 697 00:44:23,240 --> 00:44:26,440 emergency. And, and I think there are there 698 00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:28,680 are great parallels which we absolutely shouldn't ignore. 699 00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:33,360 Anyone who's done any research into it will know that so many 700 00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:38,800 things coincidentally were in place by the time the balloon 701 00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:44,520 went up in March 2020. And that suggests that there was 702 00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:47,400 a significant amount of planning into something that was 703 00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:51,080 subsequently characterized as being a novel illness, a novel 704 00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:53,480 emergency. And there is every indication 705 00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:54,960 that it would that was not the case. 706 00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:58,480 But also if you look at who you know, who benefited from that 707 00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:01,560 and who continues to benefit, very obviously, of course, the 708 00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:04,360 Pharmaceutical industry, but also the digital industry as 709 00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:06,800 well. The, the way in which the push 710 00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:11,480 to having everything online and indeed digital signature and 711 00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:13,280 biometrics and all of that sort of stuff. 712 00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:17,120 So that, so the delivery of profit and control and success 713 00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:21,320 into those corporations has been absolutely immeasurable, as has 714 00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:23,040 government control. And that's exactly what you all 715 00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:25,840 describe and you think of during that period, everyone was 716 00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:28,520 suddenly in high vis wondering, marshalling this, that and the 717 00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:31,240 other. And by and large people accepted 718 00:45:31,240 --> 00:45:33,840 it. But of course, as I say, that it 719 00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:37,480 was so stark and it was so draconian that I think that's 720 00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:41,120 done two things. First of all, it did have the I 721 00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:44,120 suppose probably calculated effect, at least calculated 722 00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:45,920 insofar as it was probably wasn't going to trigger that 723 00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:47,360 many people. But a significant number of 724 00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:51,320 people became aware of this, reacted against it and now are 725 00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:53,880 live to what is going on in the world. 726 00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:58,560 But I think actually what it did was it pushed the boundaries so 727 00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:01,040 far. And Mike was talking about this 728 00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:04,240 the other day on a news program, the, the sort of shut, shut the 729 00:46:04,240 --> 00:46:08,480 door in the face approach, which is that you, you want to achieve 730 00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:11,360 one thing, which is sort of right of argh. 731 00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:15,600 So you, you make a statement about something that is way 732 00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:18,560 beyond what it is that you need to achieve in order that people 733 00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:20,920 react against that. And you then appear to row back 734 00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:22,120 from there and say, right, well, they are. 735 00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:23,600 So it sort of looks like compromise. 736 00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:27,320 And I think that is in a way what the COVID project is going 737 00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:30,360 to deliver in terms of war, because this is a drip, drip. 738 00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:32,120 It's not right. You've all got to stay at home, 739 00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:33,480 you know, right. We're all at war. 740 00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:37,480 No, So I think, I think there is absolutely a drip, drip element 741 00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:38,920 to that. I think also the other thing, 742 00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:41,480 you know, thinking about that exchange with that, with that 743 00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:45,280 German lady is how we always talk. 744 00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:47,280 You know, we're always talking about we should, you know, we've 745 00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:48,680 got to learn from history. Never again. 746 00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:52,160 This that the other OK, fine. But what, what, what 1 forgets 747 00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:55,480 is that a large part of the reason that history has 748 00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:57,800 forgotten lessons aren't learned is because it's a different 749 00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:02,600 group of people who are in the chair at that particular time. 750 00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:06,400 So if you, if you were able to go back and say to the people 751 00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:10,840 who, who did survive the First World War, right, let's go and 752 00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:14,280 do this again, I, I can't see that any of them would say, yes, 753 00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:16,840 we'll do it again. But by the time you've pushed on 754 00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:21,120 a generation and in effect, that is what we've done. 755 00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:23,960 Now people have forgotten. And I think this is the other, 756 00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:28,680 the other part of it is people have lost touch with the human 757 00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:31,880 cost and the, and the impact on humanity and just just to. 758 00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:36,160 Yes, exactly. And, and and so it's it's 759 00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:38,240 glamorized. We the the Internet does this. 760 00:47:38,240 --> 00:47:41,280 You see, you see, you know, Twitter is absolutely awash with 761 00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:45,240 either the idea for the Ukraine armed forces, supposedly sort 762 00:47:45,240 --> 00:47:48,480 of, you know, yeah, we blew up. So and so, yeah, but so you're, 763 00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:49,720 you're talking about killing people. 764 00:47:49,720 --> 00:47:52,600 If that was in any other context and you're putting live videos 765 00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:55,320 of of people being killed. That would not. 766 00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:59,000 Be permitted, but but because it's it's sort of it's glorious 767 00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:04,040 war, it's somehow fine. Well, I, I think I did mention 768 00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:07,440 this in our previous talk, but the other thing I old enough to 769 00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:12,240 remember, albeit as, as, as a, as a youngster was, was the 770 00:48:12,240 --> 00:48:17,440 fighting in Vietnam being reported on the BBC and 771 00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:22,280 regularly those reports were body bags. 772 00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:25,840 They were talking about dead Americans coming back in body 773 00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:30,840 bags and it was clear that the reports of those deaths, 203 774 00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:35,120 hundred, whatever it was in, in any particular period were 775 00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:38,360 having a huge impact on UK society. 776 00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:41,560 And they were certainly having a huge impact on American Society 777 00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:47,280 because when the body bags got numerous enough and and the flow 778 00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:51,320 was strong enough, there was the backlash in in the American 779 00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:53,520 public against against the war itself. 780 00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:59,600 But the war in Ukraine, utterly brutal, brutal fighting in a 781 00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:02,320 conventional sense in the beginning, but now within a 782 00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:09,040 matter of a few years into drone operators hunting individual 783 00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:12,800 soldiers. And some of the footage is truly 784 00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:15,440 horrific. None of this appears on the BBC. 785 00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:20,280 So the BBC reports the war in Ukraine with, as you say, all 786 00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:26,640 the glamour of war, if that's possible, with no, absolutely no 787 00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:30,760 footage of the reality. And that's that's why for UK 788 00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:33,520 column news and I've tried not to overdo it. 789 00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:38,160 I have from time to time put up clips to show how brutal the 790 00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:44,160 fighting is in is in Ukraine. But you are right, the West 791 00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:47,400 portrays the war as a a glamorous war in Ukraine. 792 00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:51,040 It does and, and, and, and this is, this is truly sickening. 793 00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:54,280 And, and I think with the like you described, the drip, drip 794 00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:58,760 approach and the many other societal factors that have 795 00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:02,400 played upon or interfered with people's minds in, in so far as 796 00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:04,520 people have become desensitised from it. 797 00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:08,640 They're the the number of people who've been around death and I 798 00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:11,200 don't like to talk about this much, but the the number of 799 00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:15,520 people who've experienced it up close is very small now, very, 800 00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:18,160 very small, which means that people have largely experienced 801 00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:21,360 it through computer games or these online videos. 802 00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:27,600 So either it's just virtual or it's being done in the name of 803 00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:30,640 something that you're told you should believe in and even in 804 00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:33,480 fact, going to Bbci mean amazingly, they are I think it's 805 00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:36,160 an audio series. They're actually running a 806 00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:39,560 series at the moment called Putin's Foreign Fighters. 807 00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:43,120 And that the the premise, as far as I've heard the the sort of 808 00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:49,880 teaser clip, it's to examine these supposedly sort of 809 00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:53,600 complete nut cases who want to go and who are not Russian want 810 00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:56,880 to go and fight for Putin knowing that they face certain 811 00:50:56,880 --> 00:51:00,320 death. But the BBC is not reporting 812 00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:03,800 those same exactly people fighting for the Ukraine as 813 00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:05,840 well. Or at least, if ever it has 814 00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:08,880 done, it's taken the Liz Truss line, which is, yeah, this is 815 00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:10,640 the right, this is the right thing to do. 816 00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:12,320 Absolutely. You should go for it. 817 00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:15,120 And I think, you know, that this is a it is a really serious 818 00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:19,920 point because we are talking, you know, I I I think Mike and I 819 00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:23,600 were talking about this in a germ warfare banter session the 820 00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:29,720 other day. But the idea that, well, I mean, 821 00:51:29,720 --> 00:51:31,480 you know, it's sort of word play, isn't it? 822 00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:33,200 The defence industry, you know, you work with the defence 823 00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:36,560 industry, you are making kit that is specifically designed 824 00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:39,920 in, in most cases to kill other people. 825 00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:43,800 That's that's what you're doing. You're you're there to reduce 826 00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:46,040 the number of lives on the planet. 827 00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:50,840 I mean that that's how it works. And and yet the sort of personal 828 00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:55,720 accounts of this, because, as I say, there are so few serving or 829 00:51:55,720 --> 00:51:59,600 former military now, full stop, but also very few who will have 830 00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:03,280 accounted will have taken part in kinetic operations that have 831 00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:05,560 resulted in the loss of life. And I just mean that in terms of 832 00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:07,960 the overall population, people have basically lost touch with 833 00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:09,120 it. And I think, you know, I mean, I 834 00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:12,200 find this I brought back into stark reality very recently. 835 00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:15,640 I've, I've read a, an account, a first hand account from the 836 00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:20,440 trenches in the first war, an amazing book called Tommy at 837 00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:26,320 Gomcorp, GO double MECOURT, Thomas Higgins, who was a 838 00:52:26,560 --> 00:52:28,560 private soldier, then Lance Corporal in the North 839 00:52:28,560 --> 00:52:30,880 Staffordshire Regiment at the early stages of the First World 840 00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:33,800 War. And it describes his experiences 841 00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:35,720 in the trenches and then subsequently as a prisoner of 842 00:52:35,720 --> 00:52:39,200 war. And I defy anybody to read that 843 00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:42,480 book and think, yes, we should go to war. 844 00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:45,800 And, and that's, that should be in Keir Starmer's intro. 845 00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:48,240 And I'm not suggesting that he holds all the power. 846 00:52:48,240 --> 00:52:53,880 He is being pushed into this by the, the, the known and unknown 847 00:52:53,880 --> 00:52:59,600 entities to which we refer. Yet he does have the authority 848 00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:04,200 to to go or no go where military action is concerned. 849 00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:08,000 But but I think the reason I mentioned that book is that 850 00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:10,560 specifically what, what's so interesting, we have this, we 851 00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:12,600 have this sort of rose tinted idea that, you know, that the 852 00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:15,760 pals battalions and and this and the other that that there was a 853 00:53:16,040 --> 00:53:22,160 an organic response to. It's a situation where we had to 854 00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:24,240 meet, you know, we had to meet that threat. 855 00:53:24,240 --> 00:53:26,320 We had to send men out and this and the other. 856 00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:29,320 But actually, what comes out of that book, some of the more 857 00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:34,040 poignant parts are he he recounts singing the national 858 00:53:34,040 --> 00:53:37,600 anthem on Christmas Day, where sort of hostilities ceased for 859 00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:39,680 the day. They sang the national anthem 860 00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:41,840 and it just caused him to ruminate. 861 00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:45,160 He kept these affirmed Diaries he kept at the time of sort of 862 00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:47,520 well, really, is that why we're here? 863 00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:51,200 We're here to keep some some bloke sitting in a nice house 864 00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:54,400 back in the United Kingdom safe, you know, and to read that, 865 00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:57,600 that's that's quite a pretty emotional thing to read after 866 00:53:57,600 --> 00:53:59,280 the absolute horrors that he's been through. 867 00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:05,120 And also he talks about the utter loss of humanity in some 868 00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:09,560 of the urban skirmishes that they had where he describes. 869 00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:12,440 And it was it was the same both sides. 870 00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:15,520 What else could they do? But they just, it was just a 871 00:54:15,520 --> 00:54:16,760 slaughter. It was a frenzy. 872 00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:21,600 They would just killing people as quickly as they possibly 873 00:54:21,600 --> 00:54:24,000 could. There was no regard for trying 874 00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:27,080 to take prisoners or anything like that because they knew that 875 00:54:27,080 --> 00:54:30,200 that if they faltered for a minute, it it was them next. 876 00:54:30,600 --> 00:54:32,640 And and that is just horrific to read. 877 00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:36,280 And then the Third Point, which again is it comes right back to, 878 00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:39,320 I think sort of what what we're talking about in terms of this 879 00:54:39,320 --> 00:54:43,680 being in prospect initially and then in review is the idea that 880 00:54:43,680 --> 00:54:47,120 they went out, they did it. Some of them, like he survived 881 00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:51,120 and they came back and they were just straight back down to the 882 00:54:51,120 --> 00:54:53,720 bottom of the heap. And for what? 883 00:54:54,320 --> 00:54:58,160 And crikey, that is poignant. And so, I mean, if anyone 884 00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:00,640 considers getting hold of a copy of that, Thomas Higgins, 885 00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:04,840 interestingly, his great grandson was one of my 886 00:55:04,840 --> 00:55:07,120 instructors when I was at Sandhurst, which is how I came 887 00:55:07,120 --> 00:55:09,760 by a copy of it. So Alf Higgins gave me a copy 888 00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:11,440 the other day. But it, I mean, there'll be 889 00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:13,680 other accounts, but it is absolutely remarkable. 890 00:55:13,960 --> 00:55:15,920 And it just, it brings those things. 891 00:55:15,920 --> 00:55:19,600 So even if you think, even if you're prepared to endure the 892 00:55:19,600 --> 00:55:22,320 idea that humans can kill each other and all the rest of it, 893 00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:25,720 the fact that he was able to point to this idea that that 894 00:55:25,720 --> 00:55:29,120 you, you go there and you either do sacrifice your life or you're 895 00:55:29,120 --> 00:55:32,120 prepared to and you come back and you just get nothing and 896 00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:33,720 nothing changes. You know that that's that. 897 00:55:33,720 --> 00:55:38,800 That hits very hard. Yeah, the these sorts of well, 898 00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:42,600 Diaries and and recollect recollections of people who've 899 00:55:42,600 --> 00:55:45,320 actually been through the fighting of very powerful 900 00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:49,760 things. YouTube, for all its faults, has 901 00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:55,800 got a very large number of really excellent audio or say 902 00:55:55,800 --> 00:55:58,480 videos. Usually there's there's images 903 00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:04,040 presented with the audio, but they are the audio, the audio 904 00:56:04,040 --> 00:56:09,360 delivery of the Diaries written by German soldiers on the some 905 00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:13,600 officers, but mainly soldiers on the Eastern Front when they were 906 00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:19,160 fighting the Russians. And my goodness, those Diaries 907 00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:22,800 tell you so much. Because for many, they go from 908 00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:26,960 the initial euphoria that they're moving across the border 909 00:56:28,040 --> 00:56:31,680 and Operation Barbarossa has begun and they're attacking the 910 00:56:31,680 --> 00:56:36,240 Russians and they're advancing hundreds of kilometers a day. 911 00:56:36,240 --> 00:56:39,960 And then it moves on to when things started to bog down 912 00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:42,400 around Moscow and staling ground happens. 913 00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:47,160 And then, and then they are on the retreat and they're in 914 00:56:47,160 --> 00:56:51,560 appalling temperatures -30 or whatever it is. 915 00:56:51,560 --> 00:56:54,600 They've no food. And they are starting to 916 00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:57,360 consider why they're there. The only reason they continue to 917 00:56:57,360 --> 00:56:59,760 fight is to protect their fellow soldiers. 918 00:57:00,160 --> 00:57:04,960 But in those Diaries, yes, they absolutely reflect back on why 919 00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:06,600 they're there and what was happening. 920 00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:10,360 These are not Diaries that the BBC is ever going to present to 921 00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:12,520 the nation. And I doubt if they're even 922 00:57:12,960 --> 00:57:17,040 presented to the nation in Germany because they really tell 923 00:57:17,040 --> 00:57:21,320 it as it is. We're on a very interesting path 924 00:57:21,320 --> 00:57:24,160 here is I was driving into the column this morning. 925 00:57:24,160 --> 00:57:27,280 One of the things that was in my head is that although I have 926 00:57:27,280 --> 00:57:32,000 been retired now for 30 plus years from from the military, 927 00:57:32,280 --> 00:57:36,120 I'm thinking to myself, it's amazing how much how powerful 928 00:57:36,120 --> 00:57:40,400 the sense of loyalty is. And so I thought we're going to 929 00:57:40,400 --> 00:57:43,320 have this discussion today and I didn't quite know where it was 930 00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:47,880 going going to go, but I was thinking we are absolutely 931 00:57:47,880 --> 00:57:50,720 challenging stuff that's happening around the military. 932 00:57:50,720 --> 00:57:54,880 We're also in a way looking at the military in UK and saying 933 00:57:54,880 --> 00:57:58,320 you really need to think through what you're doing and, and why. 934 00:57:59,880 --> 00:58:03,600 But I also feel a sense that there are many very good young 935 00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:09,000 men and women who are out there in UK's armed forces because 936 00:58:09,000 --> 00:58:12,240 they believe they are doing a good job and that they're a 937 00:58:12,240 --> 00:58:16,680 vital part. This is this is a difficult one. 938 00:58:16,680 --> 00:58:19,160 But what do you think we should be saying to them? 939 00:58:19,160 --> 00:58:23,120 Because on one hand, we're here and we're clearly putting a 940 00:58:23,120 --> 00:58:25,920 message across wars and nasty thing. 941 00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:29,600 You have more experience of it than I certainly, certainly do. 942 00:58:32,200 --> 00:58:37,040 But so we're saying, yeah, watch out for what this really is and 943 00:58:37,040 --> 00:58:41,240 who's fermenting the environment that says you, you need to go 944 00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:43,320 prepared to go to war for the Russians. 945 00:58:43,840 --> 00:58:48,080 What else can we say to those? Yeah, very professional and 946 00:58:48,080 --> 00:58:50,080 dedicated people out there. This is it. 947 00:58:50,080 --> 00:58:52,400 I, I, it's a, it's a very good question. 948 00:58:52,600 --> 00:58:55,640 And and I think perhaps at the at the outset of this 949 00:58:55,640 --> 00:58:57,760 discussion, we should have, we should have made reference to 950 00:58:57,760 --> 00:58:58,720 that. I mean, you know, the fact is we 951 00:58:58,720 --> 00:59:02,520 are, we are both ex servicemen, we, we, we both intentionally 952 00:59:02,520 --> 00:59:05,760 join the armed forces and so for periods of time. 953 00:59:05,760 --> 00:59:11,160 So we obviously we wanted to do that and there are so many 954 00:59:11,160 --> 00:59:15,360 elements of military life and OK, I am out of touch. 955 00:59:15,360 --> 00:59:18,160 And I think to go back to your point about the, the hollowing 956 00:59:18,160 --> 00:59:21,600 item or not, I know that morale is not what it was when you or I 957 00:59:21,600 --> 00:59:23,680 was was serving. I mean, there's always something 958 00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:24,960 to complain about. So it. 959 00:59:25,680 --> 00:59:28,120 Wouldn't be what it is. If there wasn't, then that 960 00:59:28,160 --> 00:59:30,080 might. Be indeed that might be hard for 961 00:59:30,080 --> 00:59:33,840 non military people to understand but exactly so if 962 00:59:33,840 --> 00:59:37,200 there isn't a certain amount of manking which used to be called 963 00:59:37,200 --> 00:59:40,680 in the life is not OK. Yes, exactly. 964 00:59:40,680 --> 00:59:45,080 But but, but so, so that notwithstanding that, but yes, I 965 00:59:45,080 --> 00:59:48,560 mean the, the sense and this might sound sort of Triton like 966 00:59:48,600 --> 00:59:50,680 a sales pitch. It's it's absolutely not. 967 00:59:50,680 --> 00:59:56,200 It is, it is completely an objective fact that the the 968 00:59:57,000 --> 01:00:00,000 camaraderie and the professionalism and the ability 969 01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:04,080 to get stuff done is exists in the armed forces. 970 01:00:04,760 --> 01:00:08,400 In an unparalleled sense, I mean they I do not believe you can 971 01:00:08,400 --> 01:00:10,480 replicate or experience that anywhere else. 972 01:00:10,800 --> 01:00:15,080 And for me that was that was the main driver for not just joining 973 01:00:15,080 --> 01:00:20,480 but being part of that system. Now the problem is that you are 974 01:00:20,680 --> 01:00:24,000 therefore manipulated as an individual. 975 01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:29,920 Your good nature is taken and may be Co opted in in any 976 01:00:29,920 --> 01:00:33,400 particular direction, but that is a political direction. 977 01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:40,880 So I think what I would hope that people do is discuss much 978 01:00:40,880 --> 01:00:48,640 more about the factors that are pointing towards a particular 979 01:00:48,840 --> 01:00:54,720 military intervention and really consider what it is that that 980 01:00:54,800 --> 01:00:58,280 that either is driving this or that the results of it would be. 981 01:00:58,600 --> 01:01:05,640 And to therefore exercise your discretion and your influence 982 01:01:06,720 --> 01:01:08,720 over that process. Because that, you know, let's 983 01:01:08,720 --> 01:01:11,120 not forget the chain of command works both ways. 984 01:01:11,600 --> 01:01:15,680 And I think there needs to be a greater element of discussion 985 01:01:15,680 --> 01:01:19,760 that feeds up to the, let's face it, the political, no very much 986 01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:21,880 political hierarchy of the armed forces. 987 01:01:23,320 --> 01:01:26,960 But that's a that's a really good point, Charles, or 988 01:01:27,000 --> 01:01:31,800 immediately comes into my mind is, and I've said this on a 989 01:01:31,800 --> 01:01:34,840 number of occasions, I'm happy to say again now is the immense 990 01:01:34,840 --> 01:01:38,720 weakness of the senior officers in the military. 991 01:01:39,200 --> 01:01:43,440 And this was one of the things that I started to see towards 992 01:01:43,440 --> 01:01:49,480 the end of my career, which made me ultimately make the decision 993 01:01:49,480 --> 01:01:51,800 to leave. I saw things happening in the 994 01:01:51,800 --> 01:01:54,200 military which we're clearly not right. 995 01:01:54,200 --> 01:01:57,080 They did not make sense. They were causing problems. 996 01:01:57,560 --> 01:02:03,760 And yet there was there was no senior officer that would speak 997 01:02:03,760 --> 01:02:09,440 out because their minds were full of am I going to be made a 998 01:02:09,440 --> 01:02:11,440 Sir? That was the key one. 999 01:02:11,760 --> 01:02:16,440 Am I going to get that most high-ranking pension to make the 1000 01:02:16,440 --> 01:02:21,400 rest of my life comfortable? And when I started to see what I 1001 01:02:21,400 --> 01:02:25,720 thought were really, really good senior officers, the sort of 1002 01:02:25,720 --> 01:02:30,120 people who you just knew if the chips were down, you would 1003 01:02:30,120 --> 01:02:33,480 actually be following them in, in the battle. 1004 01:02:34,240 --> 01:02:39,120 And then suddenly some scruffy politician appeared on board the 1005 01:02:39,120 --> 01:02:42,960 ship or on the base and they just turned to mush. 1006 01:02:44,120 --> 01:02:46,000 And and I, I found this appalling. 1007 01:02:46,000 --> 01:02:47,720 And of course, there, there are so many. 1008 01:02:47,800 --> 01:02:50,520 I mean, if we take barons who's been part of the strategic 1009 01:02:50,520 --> 01:02:54,440 defense review, you can correct me here because I may have 1010 01:02:54,440 --> 01:02:56,040 missed it, but what is he actually? 1011 01:02:56,040 --> 01:02:59,400 What did he actually do to stop the hollowing out to the 1012 01:02:59,400 --> 01:03:02,160 military? Because he's he's reached senior 1013 01:03:02,160 --> 01:03:05,320 rank in a military that was being hollowed out. 1014 01:03:05,320 --> 01:03:09,320 So what did he do to actually stand up against that or protest 1015 01:03:09,320 --> 01:03:12,680 or whatever? Though senior officers, some of 1016 01:03:12,680 --> 01:03:16,840 them have spoken out a little bit, but most of them in my view 1017 01:03:16,840 --> 01:03:21,560 are complete political cowards. We'll not talk about things. 1018 01:03:21,560 --> 01:03:22,920 Absolutely, I would agree with that. 1019 01:03:22,920 --> 01:03:26,880 And I think that's that's very well evidenced by the number of 1020 01:03:27,600 --> 01:03:32,240 officers above sort of one star command and above who, who go 1021 01:03:32,240 --> 01:03:35,920 public the moment they've left rather than actually making a 1022 01:03:35,920 --> 01:03:38,800 fuss whilst they're still in and being able to deliver some sort 1023 01:03:38,800 --> 01:03:40,600 of. Protest. 1024 01:03:40,600 --> 01:03:43,280 Exactly, Yes, yes. And and so, yes, I mean, to go 1025 01:03:43,280 --> 01:03:45,120 back to the point, you know, again, sorry, just to just refer 1026 01:03:45,120 --> 01:03:47,560 back to the book Tommy Ogong called the other point he makes, 1027 01:03:47,560 --> 01:03:49,480 of course, and this this strikes right to the heart of it. 1028 01:03:50,320 --> 01:03:52,160 And it's, it's terribly difficult. 1029 01:03:53,600 --> 01:03:57,320 It's an ethical question, But he, but, but he reflects at one 1030 01:03:57,320 --> 01:04:00,720 point and he just says, you know, we, we all came to think 1031 01:04:00,720 --> 01:04:04,400 or he, he came to think that he's really there just killing 1032 01:04:04,400 --> 01:04:07,520 Germans because they're German, you know, just because they had 1033 01:04:07,520 --> 01:04:08,520 the misfire. I can't remember. 1034 01:04:08,520 --> 01:04:10,840 He phrases it really well. And that, and that's quite a, 1035 01:04:10,840 --> 01:04:13,960 that's quite a thought. Now that takes us into a much 1036 01:04:13,960 --> 01:04:16,120 bigger thing, which we can't possibly touch upon now. 1037 01:04:16,120 --> 01:04:18,560 But the, but the idea, you know what, what is an armed force for 1038 01:04:18,560 --> 01:04:21,000 in the 1st place? You know, because to me, sort of 1039 01:04:21,000 --> 01:04:23,880 rather sentimentally, the idea of sort of queen and country 1040 01:04:24,720 --> 01:04:26,560 seemed to mean something, was certainly meant a hell of a lot 1041 01:04:26,560 --> 01:04:29,760 more than right, going to go off there and just bash those people 1042 01:04:29,760 --> 01:04:31,600 around just because they're in a different part of the world. 1043 01:04:31,600 --> 01:04:34,160 And that to me has never made any sense at all. 1044 01:04:35,160 --> 01:04:39,320 So to, to not have any armed forces and well, you know, 1045 01:04:39,800 --> 01:04:44,400 anyway, not, not for now, but but it, but it just does, you 1046 01:04:44,400 --> 01:04:47,040 know, how many people really, when that, when you are getting 1047 01:04:47,240 --> 01:04:49,280 operational briefings about this, that and the other, how 1048 01:04:49,280 --> 01:04:52,760 many people are really thinking, OK, so we, we are going to be 1049 01:04:52,760 --> 01:04:57,640 in, let's say, Iran or Russia aiming to kill Iranians or 1050 01:04:57,640 --> 01:05:00,720 Russians simply because they are Iranian or Russian. 1051 01:05:00,800 --> 01:05:03,920 I mean, that's, that's quite a thought Now where people take 1052 01:05:03,920 --> 01:05:07,080 that I, I don't know, but I think that people that, that, 1053 01:05:07,080 --> 01:05:09,080 that at least having those thoughts, having those 1054 01:05:09,080 --> 01:05:12,480 discussions has got to be for the, for the good, because 1055 01:05:12,480 --> 01:05:14,760 otherwise we, this has been sort of a thread through this 1056 01:05:14,760 --> 01:05:17,440 conversation. The balance absolutely does 1057 01:05:17,440 --> 01:05:20,520 shift away from the military holding any power over their own 1058 01:05:20,520 --> 01:05:24,360 destiny. And and we look at the, the 1059 01:05:24,360 --> 01:05:27,280 massive, massive corporate influence and that is a that is 1060 01:05:27,280 --> 01:05:29,160 a terrific danger. And I think what I'm pleased to 1061 01:05:29,160 --> 01:05:31,480 be doing is this, you know, this, this series, which we are 1062 01:05:31,480 --> 01:05:34,040 going to make a more regular commitment to because I think 1063 01:05:34,040 --> 01:05:37,720 it's really important that UK column does chart accurately 1064 01:05:37,720 --> 01:05:42,080 this drip, drip boiled frog progression because I think we 1065 01:05:42,080 --> 01:05:46,040 see it and it, it, it is very important that other people are 1066 01:05:46,160 --> 01:05:48,680 are brought to see it as well. Well. 1067 01:05:49,040 --> 01:05:51,920 Absolutely, Charles. We're probably at the top of the 1068 01:05:51,920 --> 01:05:55,080 hour. I, I think so we, we, we should 1069 01:05:55,080 --> 01:05:59,400 probably finish for today. But let's end by reinforcing the 1070 01:05:59,400 --> 01:06:03,320 point that we absolutely understand the quality of the 1071 01:06:03,320 --> 01:06:06,800 people around there in UK's military. 1072 01:06:08,280 --> 01:06:12,800 I think my final message would be, it may be I'm saying to 1073 01:06:12,800 --> 01:06:16,040 those people out there in the armed forces, you may have to 1074 01:06:16,040 --> 01:06:19,240 fight, but it'll be fighting for this country rather than 1075 01:06:19,240 --> 01:06:21,680 fighting the Russians. Yeah, that's exactly it. 1076 01:06:21,680 --> 01:06:25,080 But exactly what is defined by this country these days is a big 1077 01:06:25,080 --> 01:06:27,160 one, and we'll get to that in another episode. 1078 01:06:27,400 --> 01:06:28,600 In due course. Yeah. 1079 01:06:28,800 --> 01:06:30,240 Brilliant. Thanks very much. 1080 01:06:30,240 --> 01:06:30,560 Thanks.