1 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:09,320 We'll try and have a 45 minute panel discussion now and try and 2 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:13,120 link in some of the questions that we've been receiving during 3 00:00:13,120 --> 00:00:15,840 these talks. Just just to reiterate, thank 4 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:20,160 you very much to all your talks. I think providing people me but 5 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:23,600 also the wider audience out there with some incredible in 6 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:27,840 depth analysis and understanding what's going on which is 7 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:31,680 critical if we're trying to make sense of this situation that 8 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:35,000 we're seeing in the Middle East. And as I said before, this is a 9 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:37,840 very dangerous moment clearly based upon what Les has been 10 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:40,000 telling us but also in the other talks. 11 00:00:41,160 --> 00:00:44,000 I guess maybe just to kick it off, I mean we started at the 12 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:47,600 very beginning obviously with me and talking about 9/11. 911 is a 13 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:50,960 structural deep event and it's one she describes a false flag, 14 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:54,200 it's a self-inflicted wound in order to get series of wars, 15 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:56,880 regime change, wars, starting the restructuring of the Middle 16 00:00:56,880 --> 00:00:59,960 East and so on. I mean going to October seven, 17 00:00:59,960 --> 00:01:03,840 obviously we're not thinking the evidence that's suggesting it's 18 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:07,360 that type of false flag event. But it does seem to be from what 19 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:10,040 a lot of you are saying that sort of you know there is 20 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:15,640 certainly Israel is tried to exploit what happened on October 21 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:18,520 seven for its own strategic purposes. 22 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:21,640 And I guess that raises you know the first question, does this 23 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:26,360 look like a a lie hop let it happen on purpose as being the 24 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:29,400 most kind of likely scenario in this case. 25 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:33,680 And just and in addition to that I'll put that out to everyone. 26 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:36,280 But in addition to that, we've got a question from somebody 27 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:40,040 saying that, well, if if Israel let it happen and they knew it 28 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:43,880 was going to occur and they have sought strategic advantage by 29 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:47,560 exploiting it in order to do what they're doing in Gaza, what 30 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:50,480 exactly does Hamas presumably and Palestinian resistance would 31 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:52,880 have known this? What exactly is their strategic 32 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:57,160 motivation in in this action that was taken? 33 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:02,120 So just to start us off, I mean, and does anyone want to pick up 34 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:05,840 on that on sort of is this looking like the most likely 35 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:10,560 assessment of this is a lie hot and it's been exploited. 36 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:14,600 They knew it was going to happen and they're using it to pursue, 37 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:17,720 you know, removal of Palestinians from Gaza, for 38 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:20,120 example. Is that the most likely scenario 39 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:22,200 that we have in terms of understanding what happened? 40 00:02:27,710 --> 00:02:30,950 Yes, I would say something like Aaron because he was most 41 00:02:30,950 --> 00:02:32,030 focused on that. Yeah. 42 00:02:32,990 --> 00:02:36,870 I mean it it looks apparently like they would have let some 43 00:02:36,870 --> 00:02:42,000 attack happened and that the response was rather slow and 44 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:50,880 that they also used, you know, massive indiscriminate violence, 45 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:56,280 you know, to to attack the Hamas and others in order to have a 46 00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:59,520 higher death count because they preferred that to hostages. 47 00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:03,720 So I mean this the way that they have exaggerated it and used it 48 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:05,640 this way, I think that they would have. 49 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:08,600 There's there's a lot of reason to think that they let it happen 50 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:11,240 and that they came in and even added a lot more. 51 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:15,680 I don't know that I would guess, honestly that it was the plan, 52 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:18,440 the objective of Hamas and these other parties that had joined 53 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:24,200 not to attack civilians, not to massacre civilians, but actually 54 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:26,080 to take hostages. I think they wanted hostages. 55 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:28,560 That's logical. And that does seem to be what we 56 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:31,400 hear from the hostages. So that makes the most sense to 57 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:33,200 me. I don't I if I'm not saying 58 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:35,080 there were no atrocities and I can't know everything that 59 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:36,520 happened. But the fact that all of these 60 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:39,000 things have been debunked and even when they come out with 61 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:43,320 these rape stories, you know, as Max Blumenthal has done very 62 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:45,680 well, they're actually very thinly sourced and there's 63 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:48,440 nothing really to hang them on. So they the way that they're 64 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:53,040 being treated so credulously, despite a much real confirmation 65 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:56,360 in terms of evidence, is really is really notable now on the 66 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:58,160 side of Hamas, why they would have done it. 67 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:03,240 I think that preventing the normalization of relations 68 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:06,240 between Saudi Arabia and Israel may have been the more pressing 69 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:12,120 thing for them. I think that in a if if Israel 70 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:15,920 is not able to to really go forward with this as they had 71 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:19,279 planned, if they're not able to massively ethnically cleanse the 72 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:24,240 the Palestinians in Gaza, then I think it will rebound to 73 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:28,560 Israel's strategic defeat massively because they have lost 74 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:31,320 so much legitimacy here. I don't even think if they 75 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:34,000 liquidate the Palestinians that this will be a win for them 76 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:37,760 because their position in the world depends on US hegemony, US 77 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:42,800 control of the of the dollar and US as the global bully and that 78 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:45,280 is all crumbling. I think that is why partially 79 00:04:45,280 --> 00:04:48,520 why they did what they did along with Benjamin Netanyahu's 80 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:53,920 political fortunes. So if Hamas, even if even if all 81 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:58,320 of Gaza gets wiped out, Hamas may actually be, they may 82 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:00,600 actually win in terms of destroying Israel. 83 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:04,520 Because I don't see how Israel can be viable in the post US 84 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:11,760 unipolar world as a as a pariah and as a the perpetrator of 85 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:15,360 unspeakable crimes, of genocidal crimes that we haven't seen. 86 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:20,000 Something like this on the scale happened in Indonesia in 1965, 87 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:22,800 but there wasn't TikTok videos. It wasn't the whole world 88 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:24,440 watching it saying can you stop this? 89 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:27,000 And the US saying, no, this is not happening. 90 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:28,760 What you're seeing is not what you're seeing. 91 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:32,040 This isn't what it is. We or just, you know, we can't 92 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:34,640 do anything about it. So I think it's, I think it's a 93 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:38,000 disaster, but it's also very dangerous because I don't know 94 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:41,280 that the people in charge of the US war machine are going to 95 00:05:41,280 --> 00:05:43,880 suffer this defeat gladly along with Ukraine. 96 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:45,360 It seems like the US empires aren't. 97 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:51,120 So I'll let it happen, but one that has backfired or is 98 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:57,600 backfiring now effectively Asif. Yeah, I would like to add a 99 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:00,600 couple of things. First, this is not the first 100 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:06,320 time Israel has invaded Gaza and has come in and out several 101 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:09,120 times before. I doubt very much that whatever 102 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:14,160 plan they are executing now, this was not part of the plan 103 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:16,760 that they have prepared for. There is evidence. 104 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:19,440 They have been talking to the Egyptian government, trying to 105 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:25,840 transfer the Palestinians into Sinai or even into a new city 106 00:06:25,840 --> 00:06:31,560 they created in the desert. So to some extent the plan of 107 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:35,000 the Israelis to empty Gaza for the reasons I've mentioned and 108 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:39,200 for the other reasons that my colleagues have mentioned is 109 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:41,400 there. And there is no question about 110 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:43,960 it. Israel is seeking it economic 111 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:49,240 advantage and exploiting the opportunities that this emptying 112 00:06:49,280 --> 00:06:51,560 of Gaza would prevent would present them. 113 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:55,440 Why would the Pancinian do it? I mean, I think Aaron has 114 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:59,280 already mentioned the idea that it seems every Arab country 115 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:04,680 won't say every, but at least the Gulf countries seem to have 116 00:07:04,840 --> 00:07:10,040 accepted this Abrahamic initiatives and they're making 117 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:12,080 their ways. Maybe Saudi Arabia did not 118 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:18,200 declare its agreement with Israel, but certainly it never 119 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:21,600 denied it and at some time mentioned that things are really 120 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:25,520 moving in the direction of a greater normalization. 121 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:29,160 So to some extent what the Palestinians have done have been 122 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:32,920 motivated by the fact that the Palestinian question all of a 123 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:36,400 sudden has become on the back burner of the Arab agenda. 124 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:40,360 So what they've tried to do basically, even if it isn't new 125 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:44,160 and the new might not really succeed totally, is that they 126 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:49,040 basically and fundamentally turn the tables around in such a way 127 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:52,440 that the Palestinian question that has been put on the back 128 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:55,240 burner to simmer in the background is now on the 129 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:59,920 forefront and has to a great extent derail whatever agreement 130 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:06,960 the Arab states, whether it is Sudan or malaria or Egypt, 131 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:13,880 Jordan and Bahrain and the UAE. I think to some extent it drove 132 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:16,560 a wedge between the government and the people. 133 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:20,800 And I don't believe that the Arab governments are now in the 134 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:24,120 same comfortable position of making an accommodation with 135 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:28,480 Israel before that was happening, before the events 136 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:33,679 indeed. Richard. 137 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:42,039 Yes, just to supplement what Aaron and Atif have said, with 138 00:08:42,039 --> 00:08:48,560 which I agree we should remember that before October 7th ever 139 00:08:48,560 --> 00:08:55,120 happened, this was described as the most extreme government ever 140 00:08:55,120 --> 00:09:02,400 to emerge in Israel. And what that translated into, 141 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:10,520 in my understanding, is that it was intent on giving the settler 142 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:17,440 violence a green light on the West Bank and creating a 143 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:23,560 situation where the final, the end game of the Zionist project 144 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:28,880 could be carried out. And I think contextualizing 145 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:35,400 what's happened after October 7th, even if you grant the 146 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:45,480 validity of Israel believing that it was subject to a 147 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:54,160 surprise attack, even if you grant that the illogic of their 148 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:59,400 response suggests that they had other priorities in mind. 149 00:09:59,920 --> 00:10:07,920 Both the territorial priorities of expanding to Greater Israel 150 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:16,600 and the economic priorities that Atif has described to us. 151 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:22,080 So that this didn't come out of a vacuum, as the Secretary 152 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:29,000 General said, and you must, you should remember the speech that 153 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:35,480 Netanyahu gave in the General Assembly of the UNA couple of 154 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:42,160 weeks before this attack, which were, which was highlighted by 155 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:46,400 showing a map without Palestine on it. 156 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:54,360 And there undoubtedly was some impulse on the Palestinian 157 00:10:54,720 --> 00:11:02,640 resistance movement to say we have to act now or this we will 158 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:12,240 be subject to a fed accompli. And so the historical timing, 159 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:20,720 even if the deep structure, structural event, dimension is 160 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:29,920 present, they re it reinforces that and creates this very 161 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:36,160 dangerous present situation, which is that Israel can neither 162 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:38,680 win nor lose. See. 163 00:11:38,680 --> 00:11:42,680 And what does it do when it's confronted by that? 164 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:50,800 It the only thing it can do is widen the combat zone by 165 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:59,080 bringing Iran somehow into the conflict and therefore bringing 166 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:06,120 the US in as an alternative to its ceding control over the 167 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:15,320 whole region. So this is a worrisome moment in 168 00:12:15,680 --> 00:12:24,080 a horrible crisis situation from if looked at from a humanitarian 169 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:33,200 and Palestinian perspective. And only I think, civil society, 170 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:41,000 a surge of civil society activism, can challenge these 171 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:49,280 forces that are seeking the perpetuation of American post 172 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:56,400 Cold War unipolar hegemony. Yeah, certainly. 173 00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:59,440 The kind of the feeling I get is this sort of this, the weakening 174 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:04,720 empire and increasingly extreme desperate actions and so on 175 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:09,320 being taken both the US and Israel, which, you know, what 176 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:12,200 you made earlier creates this very dangerous situation, sort 177 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:16,040 of a wounded animal, as it were, becomes more and more violent. 178 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:20,120 Kevin, did you want to come in on that or did you want to just 179 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:23,040 comment on especially what you heard from in Aaron's 180 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:26,520 presentation, sort of any sort of bits of evidence in there 181 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:30,480 which you were to pick up as, yeah, this is very indicative of 182 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:32,680 certainly a let it happen operation. 183 00:13:32,680 --> 00:13:35,840 Would you be willing to sort of put your money on the table and 184 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:37,920 that at the moment in terms of thinking, yeah, there's 185 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:40,120 something that's just fairly solid there which we could look 186 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:42,680 to and suggest that, you know, they at least knew this was 187 00:13:42,680 --> 00:13:46,240 going to happen or as am I pushing you too hard on that? 188 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:50,920 Yeah, no, when I when I gave the my talk, I I mentioned that 189 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:56,440 everything that so far I've seen seems to match the pattern that 190 00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:58,960 I've seen with other state crimes. 191 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:03,400 And and certainly there was foreknowledge on the part of 192 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:06,920 Israel. And you know, I would say one 193 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:12,280 other thing that I've read about the fact that the operation 194 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:17,320 involved the simultaneous compromising of 29 points on the 195 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:23,040 iron wall, 29 points of a of a boundary that is so highly 196 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:28,240 observed on a daily basis. Combined with the foreknowledge 197 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:32,600 of the plan and the of the exercises that mimic the event, 198 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:36,480 it does very much seem like it was allowed to happen. 199 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:41,040 If there's more to it than that I think that we need to just 200 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:45,800 continually re evaluate our perspective based on evidence 201 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:48,920 that that is revealed. Because as I said you know with 202 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:55,320 deep events that it's it's all defined as being hidden and so 203 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:58,840 it won't be revealed necessarily for for some time. 204 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:03,120 But I can say I am worried about what Professor Faulk has said, 205 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:08,280 that this may be something and and Vanessa has also said may be 206 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:15,040 leading to a wider war and there may be have been a a an 207 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:18,080 intention there all along which is very troubling. 208 00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:25,400 Yeah, Vanessa, did you dropped out there for a second. 209 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:28,000 Did you want to come in on? Would you? 210 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:33,360 Yeah, I mean I think all I wanted to say about the, the 211 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:38,000 Hamas operation and I don't know if anybody mentioned that while 212 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:43,880 I kind of disappeared back to three and Internet was the name 213 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:48,920 of the operation, which is Al Aqsa flood of course, and this 214 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:56,480 is a very important aspect, is the potential for the Zionist 215 00:15:56,480 --> 00:16:01,000 destruction of Al Aqsa Mosque, which is I think the third most 216 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:06,640 holy Islamic site in favour of Temple Mount. 217 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:11,640 And so I think this was also so the normalization with Saudi 218 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:17,640 Arabia, which as I said in my talk, was to effectively bring 219 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:24,480 an end to the Palestinian battle for just the freedom, liberation 220 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:29,120 from the apartheid, oppressive settler, colonialist entity 221 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:33,720 rule. And then of course this ongoing 222 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:40,720 invasion really of Al Aqsa and the prevention of worship in Al 223 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:45,080 Aqsa for for Palestinian Muslims. 224 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:50,360 So I think this was also a very important aspect of this 225 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:55,520 operation. OK. 226 00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:58,760 Thanks. But to sort of move this on to 227 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:01,560 question of genocide, so we've got, well, we've got probably a 228 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:03,800 fairly straightforward question here which which Richard can 229 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:06,800 answer what one question which came in just said, well, what do 230 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:10,560 you say to people that this, what do you say to people who 231 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:13,839 say that this is not genocide, it's simply war? 232 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:19,119 I'll just pass that to Richard to quickly address before we get 233 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:21,839 on to other issues in relation to the genocide question. 234 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:30,320 Well, as I tried to suggest, Israel can. 235 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:39,840 As the occupying power has no authority to wage war, it has it 236 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:47,200 has the authority to re establish its security by 237 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:53,800 reasonable and appropriate means while upholding its primary 238 00:17:53,800 --> 00:18:00,960 obligation as the occupying power of protecting, not not 239 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:05,400 decimating the civilian population. 240 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:13,360 The whole emphasis of the Geneva Conventions when it comes to 241 00:18:13,360 --> 00:18:20,120 belligerent occupation is the duty of the occupying power to 242 00:18:20,120 --> 00:18:26,800 protect the civilian population. And this kind of response that 243 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:33,480 had very little relevance to future Israeli security, in fact 244 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:38,240 was dysfunctional from that, obviously dysfunctional from 245 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:44,720 that perspective, suggests that it has to be judged on the basis 246 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:49,600 of what kind of operation this was. 247 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:55,240 And given the statements of the Minister of Defence, the Prime 248 00:18:55,240 --> 00:19:03,200 Minister and the religious leaders in the Israeli cabinet, 249 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:10,000 there is no reasonable doubt that the intention was 250 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:15,280 genocidal. And I would be very surprised 251 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:20,120 even if a relatively conservative the International 252 00:19:20,120 --> 00:19:24,400 Court of Justice does not agree with that assessment. 253 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:29,680 Yeah, I mean it's it's quite incredible to me. 254 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:33,240 I'm, as you all know, I mean, based in Germany and in Berlin 255 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:36,080 and it's, you know, the German government and certainly the 256 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:39,400 German elite. It's quite remarkable the extent 257 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:42,680 to which they have fallen behind in support of Israel. 258 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:47,200 And it's remarkable to watch and see that there's this blindness 259 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:53,440 to reality what's going on on on this question of of and this is 260 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:57,040 linked partly to a question which came in of of what the 261 00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:01,760 Israeli population, how it sort of is cut up in terms of its 262 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:03,760 position in relation to what's going on. 263 00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:07,080 I mean clearly, you know, there is going to be some opposition 264 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:09,600 within Israel to what's going on and I guess, you know these 265 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:13,040 things took a kind of broader question about where the kind of 266 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:16,720 resistance might come to this. We're witnessing yet again 267 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:18,800 genocide now in the 21st century. 268 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:22,520 You know, are we look, populations in the West sort of 269 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:25,720 where where do people feel that those populations are in terms 270 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:29,320 of having realised what's going on the global audience of the 271 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:31,400 South, the global South and so on. 272 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:34,440 But starting off with, you know, what's the sense of the 273 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:37,760 population within Israel for Israelis who are witnessing 274 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:39,600 what's going on? Is there a significant 275 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:42,320 resistance or pushback or is it very limited? 276 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:46,640 Is the pushback going to have to come from Western populations or 277 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:50,600 from the global S? Where do people see the pushback 278 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,120 coming from against this genocide? 279 00:20:56,000 --> 00:21:01,720 Vanessa, if I can hop in there. Well, I've seen a number of 280 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:08,840 interviews with Alistair Crook, who has a wide breadth of 281 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:12,960 experience of Israeli society and the Middle East. 282 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:19,400 And According to him, 80 to 90% of the Israeli population 283 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:25,560 actually believe that the Israeli forces are not doing 284 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:31,960 enough, that they should crack harder on the political of 285 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:37,600 course, as they see that there are no innocent in Gaza are all 286 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:45,920 out that that you know were or were not carried out on October 287 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:49,520 the 7th. There is, however, a strong 288 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:54,800 pushback against, particularly in Yahoo, but even against the 289 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:57,120 security services, against the Army. 290 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:04,360 I believe now there is a court case by the families of those 291 00:22:04,360 --> 00:22:09,880 that were killed on October the 7th by the IOF helicopters and 292 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:15,680 tanks both on October the 7th and I think two days after, to 293 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:18,880 take them to court for the killing of their relatives. 294 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:24,640 There's a huge amount of fracturing within Israeli 295 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:29,640 society, but as regards the attitudes towards Palestinians, 296 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:32,880 as Alastair has said on a number of occasions, it's very 297 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:38,400 percentage that that want an end to it, that want Palestinians 298 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:42,680 ethnically cleansed from all of the occupied territories, 299 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:48,800 including West Bank and Gaza. Yeah, I I wonder if you there's 300 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:51,040 always this idea of the rally effect because it's, you know, 301 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:55,600 well documented with the kind of rather tedious academic analysis 302 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:57,800 of public opinion in conflict situations. 303 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,960 He always gets rally around the flag effect and so on at the 304 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,240 beginning of a conflict. It's this instinctive, but it 305 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:08,720 tends to ebb over time or weaken and so on as as a conflict goes 306 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:12,160 on. But, you know, maybe this ties 307 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:15,120 into what Richard was saying you have, you've had a shift to the 308 00:23:15,120 --> 00:23:18,520 right, a very extreme government in Israel, probably with a huge 309 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:21,680 amount of propaganda surrounding that and the Israeli population 310 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:26,040 being subjected to that sort of maybe that's going to be the 311 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:28,480 last place we're going to see sort of serious, sort of 312 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:31,000 popular. Very. 313 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:34,720 Also a massive indoctrination. I can't remember the name of the 314 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:38,080 documentary that was very recently released, but it's 315 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:44,440 terrified of indoctrination, the garden upwards, which has 316 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:49,720 ensured this, this expansion of extremism and expansionism. 317 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:54,440 Because of course, Netanyahu is a Revisionist Zionist that goes 318 00:23:54,440 --> 00:24:00,040 back to the Abbotinsky cult which was had very close 319 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:05,320 alliances to the Nazis in Ukraine through Simon Petler and 320 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:09,800 was effectively is effectively a very supremacist expansionist. 321 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:18,120 And so therefore that that's very much what is filtered 322 00:24:18,120 --> 00:24:22,720 through the education in Israel and is effectively 323 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:27,880 indoctrinating and programming Israelis into the thinking that 324 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:33,760 they now have. And just to add a word to that, 325 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:39,480 we should remember that authoritative human rights 326 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:45,840 groups had concluded in the years, the five or six years 327 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:52,680 prior to October 7th, that Israel was an apartheid state. 328 00:24:54,000 --> 00:25:05,320 And part of what allows the genocidal narrative to take such 329 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:11,520 a vicious form is the total dehumanization of the 330 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:20,280 Palestinians as human beings entitled to the protection of 331 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:27,360 law and morality. The language of Netanyahu and 332 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:35,240 Gallant, which talked of the Palestinians as human animals 333 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:41,680 who deserve to be treated as such, was then intensified by 334 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:45,760 other ministers who said, Oh well, they're not even human 335 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:51,240 animals. And this kind of dehumanization 336 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:59,400 is integral to a genocidal movement of the sort that we're 337 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:03,760 seeing carried out. And what's significant also is 338 00:26:04,120 --> 00:26:09,040 that no significant Israeli voices have challenged it. 339 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:17,000 There's a consensus that may not like Netanyahu and the religious 340 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:23,000 right, but they're not willing to depart from this idea of 341 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:29,160 dehumanization of the Palestinians, which was written 342 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:37,200 into the Basic Law of Israel in 2018, where it was declared that 343 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:42,160 only the Jewish people have a right of self determination 344 00:26:42,360 --> 00:26:49,000 within the borders of Israel. Yeah, the. 345 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:53,720 So it raises this kind of point of you know, propaganda of war. 346 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:56,800 I mean probably in in wartime it always involves this 347 00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:59,480 dehumanisation I guess sort of picking up on on Kevin's point 348 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,880 about indicators of state crimes against democracy and so on. 349 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:07,680 But you know war propaganda is you know we've seen this you see 350 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:10,280 it in the First World War, Second World War and so on. 351 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:14,800 And but I I'm, I'm betting your viewers to do some detailed 352 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:19,200 media analysis of Israeli media. You'd see some pretty terrifying 353 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:22,120 patterns there in terms of precisely that process. 354 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,560 OK, got a couple of very specific questions and I will 355 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,080 obviously we'll run for another 10 minutes up to. 356 00:27:34,120 --> 00:27:36,960 So we had 45 minutes, but I'm conscious of everybody's time 357 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:39,040 and you've given an awful lot of your time so far. 358 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:41,800 Got a couple of very specific questions. 359 00:27:42,120 --> 00:27:46,200 One was for Kevin actually, in relation to. 360 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:51,760 If you can detect these events in real time, what do you do 361 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,240 then? What's the purpose of? 362 00:27:54,400 --> 00:28:00,280 That being able to, yeah, I mentioned a little bit about the 363 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:04,320 fact that this is not an academic exercise or or 364 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:08,520 necessarily an attempt to, you know, document history. 365 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:12,240 It's really for practical purposes for those of us who are 366 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:16,360 individuals living in the world and trying to understand what's 367 00:28:16,360 --> 00:28:18,120 going on. And so I gave a couple of 368 00:28:18,120 --> 00:28:23,040 examples of of things we could, we could use this perspective 369 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:26,680 for. First of all, to reject 370 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:29,000 narratives that are obviously false. 371 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:32,640 That's going to help us understand what's going on 372 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,080 better and be able to make decisions relative to any 373 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:38,160 information we received for about it. 374 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:42,240 And also to reject the sources of misinformation. 375 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:47,960 So you know as we as we watch these events all unfold, we'll 376 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:54,000 see as we do with with most Deep State events, I think we'll see 377 00:28:55,200 --> 00:29:00,840 sometimes sources of information that don't appear to be being as 378 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:04,160 forthright as as they could be about the actual facts of what's 379 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,280 happening. I don't have an example at the 380 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:10,560 moment on the on the tip of my tongue but I also gave the the 381 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:14,240 example which I think was a very relevant one for certainly for 382 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:18,160 me and and for many others relative to COVID. 383 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:22,760 In that you know when when people are caught up in the in 384 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:26,040 the in the middle of a what what really appears to be a false 385 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:30,320 narrative and and they're being forced to do certain things 386 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:34,720 whether it be locked down or more importantly accept 387 00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,880 experimental injections into their bodies. 388 00:29:38,960 --> 00:29:43,960 I think that this is the kind of perspective that if they could, 389 00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:47,960 they could match the narrative to a pattern of of deception in 390 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,080 the past. They might be able to make a 391 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,920 better decision for themselves with regard to what's going on 392 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:56,280 today. So that's what I that's what I 393 00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:58,200 stated. Our opportunities to use a 394 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:02,280 perspective that that doesn't necessarily have every fact 395 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:06,120 nailed down, every T crossed and every I dotted as to exactly 396 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:09,840 what happened, but but still knowing that we have a deception 397 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:13,480 involved and very likely a state crime in progress. 398 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:17,400 Yeah. And and for sure we're 399 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:21,200 definitely in an era now where you know, a much larger section 400 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,760 of the population is, you know, beginning to be switched on to 401 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:27,440 these kind of deep state events and so on. 402 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:30,640 People don't buy into the kind of conspiracy theory smear in 403 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:32,640 the way that they used to and so on. 404 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:36,440 So you know there is fertile ground I think for people, you 405 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:39,600 know they're armed with the kind of more detailed analysis 406 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:43,760 identifiers and so on to to react and then to actually push 407 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:50,240 back and so on. So a specific question in 408 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:54,520 relation to somebody's asked about if you could try to map 409 00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:59,000 out the alternative trade routes the US is aiming create and how 410 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,920 that relates to current alliances in the region to. 411 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:07,960 A great extent. It's exploiting and trying to 412 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,880 organize the region along the street. 413 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:17,440 Notice that it's not just a random choice that you pass it 414 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:21,640 through Dubai and from Dubai through Saudi Arabia, Jordan. 415 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:26,400 I mean, it's difficult to forget that they are trying to exploit 416 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:30,320 all these regional arrangements. I mean, you're picking exactly 417 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:34,880 the countries that you want to be involved and to exclude the 418 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:37,880 countries you don't want. You're bringing in, in Saudi 419 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:44,240 Arabia, you're bringing in UAE, you're excluding Syria, you're 420 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:47,960 excluding Iran. So to a great extent, the trade 421 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:53,440 rules are used as a way of reorganizing regional 422 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:57,720 interactions and interests. And in this respect, you know, I 423 00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:03,440 don't suspect at all that you are not just trying to oppose 424 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:07,240 China and limit China's advantage, but you're also 425 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:12,480 trying to weave your economic relationships and the trade 426 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:16,560 routes and what they carry with them in terms of benefits within 427 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:21,040 the area and the actors that are closer to you. 428 00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:24,920 So it's in a way. Or the other is trying to rewind 429 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,200 the region to organize it. In. 430 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:31,720 A way where the economics and the strategic interests are 431 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:34,480 aligned. OK. 432 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:38,400 Thank you. Just to move to to just a 433 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:43,160 closing kind of broader question for everyone to to respond to. 434 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:46,480 I mean we, we all, it's very clear that we have genocide 435 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:48,880 occurring at the moment. It's very clear that there is 436 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:54,720 you know major geopolitical dimension and resource battles. 437 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:56,880 This is part of the kind of regime change, wars, 438 00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:59,880 restructuring the Middle East that we saw, you know, and those 439 00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:03,040 quotes from the Chilcot Inquiry at the start and so on. 440 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:09,280 And you know, and we are seeing this kind of point of I guess 441 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:13,240 crisis point for the Western Empire and this danger of 442 00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:15,040 escalation now in the Middle East. 443 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:18,480 What happens now? And I know I'm asking everyone 444 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:21,160 to get their crystal balls out and so on and make some 445 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:23,680 predictions, but how is this going to end? 446 00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:26,880 Is there going to be a scenario where the Western Empire is 447 00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:32,880 going to step down willingly, as it were, or not so much 448 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,360 willingly has be forced to step down? 449 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:40,720 Or is this going to lead in to a greater conflict which will then 450 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:44,680 play out and perhaps lead to the end of the Western Empire? 451 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:48,360 But where is this, you know, what is going to bring an end to 452 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:52,040 this imperialism in, in your view at the moment in terms of 453 00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:53,640 what's happening in the Middle East? 454 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:58,440 And I'll leave that to anyone who wants to jump in first with 455 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:08,120 that, with an answer to that. Maybe I'll jump in just to say a 456 00:34:08,159 --> 00:34:11,159 couple of words. There are about 3 dynamics here 457 00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:14,320 and depending on how these dynamics would work out, they're 458 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:17,199 going to influence the course of it. 459 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:22,239 One of the dynamic that has been established is the big wedge 460 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:24,560 between Arab governments and Arab people. 461 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:29,560 Will this event create another Arab Spring? 462 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,440 There are lots of people are discussing that we may be seeing 463 00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:37,000 another Arab Spring where the people who felt this enfranchise 464 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:41,239 and who felt their governments did not come with the kind of 465 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:45,400 response they wanted. Look, in 1973 King Faisal 466 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:50,800 stopped the production of oil and threatened that he would not 467 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:55,000 bring back oil embargo to the West and to the countries 468 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:59,000 supporting Israel until they show a change. 469 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:05,600 Maybe he stopped it and dismissed it before it created 470 00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:09,000 all this fact, but at least it showed willingness on the part 471 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:15,240 or an obligation or being forced by the the way he expected the 472 00:35:15,240 --> 00:35:18,800 reaction to be for these governments to do it in this 473 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:23,360 conflict, Have you heard one single oil producer saying I'm 474 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:27,240 going to cut my production until the West would show some 475 00:35:27,240 --> 00:35:29,400 accommodation, some understanding? 476 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:31,760 I would refrain from supporting Israel. 477 00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:39,640 I I guess that this is going to be a far more challenging issue. 478 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:44,840 These regimes are now keeping this conflict going and have an 479 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:48,200 interest in keeping going because they know when the guns 480 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:53,800 are going to stop really blazing, They'll have to face 481 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:58,280 the chorus of their own people to see why have you, Egypt, not 482 00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:03,880 delivered food when you have an Rafah passage? 483 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:07,280 Why didn't you do more? Why didn't you threaten to know 484 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:08,880 more? Why Saudi Arabia? 485 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:16,000 You didn't even mention at least a day or a week cut in the oil 486 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:20,400 supply to the world. Why every other country have not 487 00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:24,480 really, particularly Arabs, including really Iran and others 488 00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:31,400 have not come with any concrete support or at least a measure 489 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:37,520 and a effective initiative that would have really had some 490 00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:39,840 impact. So this is the first dynamic, 491 00:36:40,240 --> 00:36:44,920 the second dynamic. I don't think that anybody in 492 00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:52,160 the Arab world is now unaware of the hypocrisy of the West and 493 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:58,120 the way the West has completely turned its back on the massacres 494 00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:03,320 and on the savagery and indiscriminate bombing to a 495 00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:07,280 great extent, countries like France that had really somehow 496 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:11,560 projected itself to be independent, neutral and not 497 00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:15,360 pushing the US agenda. Where is that? 498 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:21,520 W They all seem to be exactly on the same side and have not in 499 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:26,760 any concrete way came to put an end. 500 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:32,320 They refused even to have a humanitarian extended the 501 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:35,840 humanitarian ceasefire. So this dynamic of where the 502 00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:39,960 West hypocrisy, where all the masks have completely fallen, 503 00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:45,080 where people are now exposed for where they are, they no longer 504 00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:47,480 fooling the people talking about human rights. 505 00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:52,200 The third dynamic is the big difference between how the West 506 00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:56,880 reacted to the Russian invasion of Ukraine and how they have 507 00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,520 reacted to the invasion of Israel. 508 00:38:00,240 --> 00:38:04,240 I think the three dynamics are likely to play and to have an 509 00:38:04,240 --> 00:38:06,120 influence on the course of events. 510 00:38:09,720 --> 00:38:10,720 Yeah, for sure. Sure. 511 00:38:10,720 --> 00:38:14,640 Double standards etcetera are absolutely crystal clear at this 512 00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:17,880 point and I think felt by a lot of people in Europe on the 513 00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:20,640 street as well, maybe not in the elites, but certainly across 514 00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:22,840 populations. You know, in Ukraine as well, 515 00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:26,240 there's a lot of unease, I think on the German St., about what's 516 00:38:26,240 --> 00:38:28,920 happening in Israel, Gaza, which you don't see reflected in the 517 00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:32,520 governments and so on. But but there is no positive 518 00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:36,760 dynamic and just only say one thing and this is something I 519 00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:43,800 have experienced first hand in Canada, is the strong support 520 00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:49,720 the youth and of segments of society in the West that we're 521 00:38:49,720 --> 00:38:53,360 willing to go on this street and we're willing to lose their jobs 522 00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:57,680 and we're willing to confront the established order, a 523 00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:03,560 standing on the side of humanity and defending the sanctity of 524 00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:06,040 life and the protection of civilians. 525 00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,920 This was never seen before. I've I've experienced this 526 00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:18,120 first. Yeah, Pierce, I think that this 527 00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:21,840 is really the, I would echo a lot of what a thief says and 528 00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:26,200 other people have about many of these dynamics here. the US 529 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:28,640 position is weaker than it has ever been. 530 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:32,160 I was speaking to Lawrence Wilkerson recently and he was a 531 00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:36,120 Bush official under I think in both administrations really. 532 00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:38,360 He had a lower position before and was in the military. 533 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:41,240 But he was saying he thinks that Israel is going to end within, 534 00:39:41,240 --> 00:39:44,880 you know, within a number, you know, within a decade, more or 535 00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:49,400 less. And that so when you look at the 536 00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:52,440 dynamics of the region and what the US did, it wasn't that the 537 00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:55,040 US was always in the pocket of Israel like this. 538 00:39:55,040 --> 00:40:00,320 In 9th in JFK was telling the Ben Gurion that he needed to end 539 00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:02,760 this nuclear program or aid would be cut off. 540 00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:07,960 And Kennedy, Ben Gurion resigns. And you know Kennedy's dead very 541 00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:10,680 shortly. And then you go in the next 542 00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:13,360 administration, it's basically LBJ. 543 00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:16,920 Let's gives them a pass to attack the USS Liberty and to 544 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:20,200 start that Six day war. And you got to look back and 545 00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:22,840 think how do you go from Kennedy doing what he was doing and he 546 00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:25,560 also wanted a solution to the Palestinian crisis as well. 547 00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:29,400 And then Eisenhower intervenes on the side of the global S 548 00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:32,040 basically in the Suez crisis. So how do you go from that to 549 00:40:32,040 --> 00:40:35,640 LBJ this hard right turn which is we see across the board 550 00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:40,160 Vietnam, Indonesia, Congo, Latin America, everywhere. 551 00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:41,760 He he reversed all these policies. 552 00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:44,600 It was a hard right turn for the US empire basically when they 553 00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:48,480 get rid of of Kennedy who seemed to be a bridge between you know 554 00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:52,160 cold Warrior but also like the Henry Wallace internationalism 555 00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:54,400 and wanting to wind down the Cold War and then and they 556 00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:57,960 didn't they took a hard right turn and then you have that's an 557 00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:00,560 end. The Israel side seems to have 558 00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:04,600 been a part of that. And then in the 70s they, you 559 00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:08,440 know, Nix after Nixon, you have the neocons come in who now we 560 00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:11,560 now know is people very much associated with Zionism, 561 00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:15,560 Rumsfeld, Cheney, right. That's who ends up emerging from 562 00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:18,400 the chaos of Watergate. And then you have a Carter 563 00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:20,680 administration that's kind of feckless. 564 00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:24,000 But then Reagan brings these guys back, all of these right 565 00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:28,160 wingers, and it's as though the Watergate and the Vietnam War 566 00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:29,680 lessons and everything else never happened. 567 00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:32,920 You end up more right wing, more aggressive, more pro Israel than 568 00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:35,240 before. And that's and and then you have 569 00:41:35,240 --> 00:41:37,560 the end of the Cold War. Bush tries to like deal with 570 00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:41,880 this and he can't. He's he's overcome probably, as 571 00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:44,560 Lawrence Wilkerson was saying to me, probably, and that article 572 00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:46,560 that I showed as well, probably because of Israel. 573 00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:50,000 I think it's been hard for people to grasp how powerful 574 00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:53,480 Israel has been. It's it's even deeper than what 575 00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:56,000 Mearsheimer and Walt and Mearsheimer say in the Israel 576 00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:57,920 lobby. It's not just all of those 577 00:41:57,920 --> 00:41:59,960 things that you can observe. I think that they are 578 00:41:59,960 --> 00:42:04,240 intertwined with the clandestine side, the the secret fascist 579 00:42:04,240 --> 00:42:07,080 element of the US, the sexual blackmail business that you see 580 00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:09,360 with Epstein and who knows what else. 581 00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:14,120 I mean that and the the Zionists are fanatical in their beliefs. 582 00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:17,000 And when you look at how after the end of the Cold War and 583 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:20,600 especially in the 2000s, the US abandons realism, they don't 584 00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:24,160 even function as an effective empire because there's something 585 00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:27,720 at the top of the of the apex of power, the black box, that we 586 00:42:27,720 --> 00:42:31,080 can't see in that is making them pursue stupid and crazy 587 00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:33,400 policies. And these are generally things 588 00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:35,720 that when you look at them, you see that like, well, they are 589 00:42:35,720 --> 00:42:38,240 also in accordance with like hardline Zionism. 590 00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:41,560 And nobody ever questions Zionism in the US. 591 00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:44,160 And now that we see what Israel is getting away with in broad 592 00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:48,000 daylight, it points to them being even more powerful than 593 00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:50,920 people like Mearsheimer and Waltz were trying to tell us it 594 00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:53,120 is. It is perhaps the explanation 595 00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:57,600 for how the US went from doing being a pretty vicious empire 596 00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:01,080 but kind of a pragmatic 1 to being kind of insane in the 21st 597 00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:03,600 century, to the point that we've basically lost the empire. 598 00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:07,040 And a lot of it is due to the consequences of these actions 599 00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:11,080 that were taken pretty much in accordance with what the Zionist 600 00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:13,520 faction of the Americans deep state would have wanted. 601 00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:17,960 And this is a lot for people to try to process and understand 602 00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:19,040 it. I don't. 603 00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:22,160 It didn't really require me to revise my own thinking about the 604 00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:24,680 deep state because I basically said the same thing, that, yeah, 605 00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:27,680 sometimes we outsource things to countries and they get powerful 606 00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:29,760 because they are doing, you know, dirty deeds for us. 607 00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:32,480 And the Israel lobby is a part of the deep state. 608 00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:35,160 Yeah, I said all those things before, but I don't think I 609 00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:38,560 didn't really grasp how significant it was until until 610 00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:41,400 this. It is these two, these two 611 00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:45,560 projects US global dominance, which is really a disguised 612 00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:49,120 fascism because they'll they'll shoot you like JFK if you are in 613 00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:51,840 the way of the empire. And then there's the Israeli 614 00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:56,040 version of like more blood and soil scary fascism, you know of 615 00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:58,840 a German flavor. I mean, that's really what it is 616 00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:02,120 ideologically and and there's a lot of resistance to wanting to 617 00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:04,160 acknowledge that. I'm not saying it's the that 618 00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:07,760 Zionism equals Nazism. I'm just saying Zionism as we 619 00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:11,360 see it unfolding now in with Gaza as this concentration camp 620 00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:14,200 turned into a death camp that they are. 621 00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:17,040 They're not the same thing, but they are the same type of thing. 622 00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:20,560 And this is something that more and more people are like be 623 00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:23,040 finding themselves unable to deny anymore. 624 00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:27,640 And I think that as the US is materially weakening, you have 625 00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:31,040 this, this terrible loss of legitimacy for the US and for 626 00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:32,560 Israel for what they are doing now. 627 00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:35,200 And once the reality of what we've done in Ukraine really 628 00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:39,080 dawns on people and becomes totally undeniable, that's going 629 00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:42,040 to be even worse. I don't know how US hegemony can 630 00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:44,840 continue in this way. And thus these were are going to 631 00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:48,360 seem like really horrible, counterproductive moves of a 632 00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:53,080 dying regime that has intertwined US imperialism and 633 00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:58,000 Zionism because of historical accidents and circumstances. 634 00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:02,240 And when this dissipates, it will be for the good of mankind, 635 00:45:02,240 --> 00:45:04,640 as long as it doesn't involve nuclear doomsday. 636 00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:09,000 It does seem that the Zionism is just part of this kind of 637 00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:12,200 broader feature of Western cultural superior supremacism 638 00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:13,960 and so on. You see it in, you know, the 639 00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:17,520 colonialism, empire, etcetera. It's just one of the outgrowth 640 00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:21,080 of this, you know, Western sense of supremacy and so on. 641 00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:24,760 It's our role to lead the world and then to do whatever we want, 642 00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:28,320 etcetera. I'm conscious of time Just 643 00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:31,680 Vanessa, I mean is it going to require OK, there might be this 644 00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:35,440 kind of slow grinding to a halt of of the empire and so on. 645 00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:40,640 Is it going to however require some kind of defeat, some kind 646 00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:43,360 of distinct military defeat at some point. 647 00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:47,840 And we've had Ukraine obviously, you know, Afghanistan and Syria 648 00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:50,240 you know the attempt to overthrow did not succeed. 649 00:45:50,240 --> 00:45:52,080 But they're still trying very, very hard. 650 00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:55,480 But is this going to end up in some kind of escalation followed 651 00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:59,320 by a significant, potentially significant military defeat for 652 00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:03,200 the West, which is the straw which breaks the camel's back 653 00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:07,480 and all of this? And is that one scenario that's 654 00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:11,640 possible? I think it was Edward Said that 655 00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:15,960 had, you know, the US of the Super force, the Super force can 656 00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:20,160 only be defeated by an even greater force. 657 00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:22,800 I'm paraphrasing. I don't think that's the exact 658 00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:27,240 rotation. So I think what we've also seen 659 00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:34,000 from from Yemen has been incredibly effective because it 660 00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:38,560 really has damaged the economy. I mean at if you were talking 661 00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:42,480 about the fact that you know many patients hadn't bonded in 662 00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:46,200 this way despite the proposal that was put through at the 663 00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:51,320 emergency Arab League summit that was vetoed by Saudi Arabia, 664 00:46:51,320 --> 00:46:57,240 Jordan and Egypt. And I I I think so there's 22 665 00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:00,360 streams here. First of all there is the 666 00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:05,440 success of the Yemeni operation for which there is potential for 667 00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:10,560 for Yemen to be attacked. Though it's undergone already 8 668 00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:16,280 years of of incredible aggression by Saudi Arabia, UAE, 669 00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:21,400 Israel kind of leading a proxy war against Antrala in Yemen. 670 00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:28,480 And as you know the unsure lowest spokespeople have said 671 00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:32,360 will stop threatening you know if you're going to attackers, 672 00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:35,520 attackers. But so far it's been a lot of 673 00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:40,560 belligerent rhetoric and they haven't actually really carried 674 00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:43,480 out any attacks on on Yemen and mainland. 675 00:47:44,240 --> 00:47:48,920 So there's this sort of juxtaposition of as you both, 676 00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:52,080 Gallant said. They need victory in order to 677 00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:56,120 survive. But how elusive is that victory? 678 00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:59,560 Really. You know, and to what extent are 679 00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:06,760 they prepared to to push forward in conflict that they cannot win 680 00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:08,240 Shami? No one said. 681 00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:13,320 But you're now getting this unification of Arab populations, 682 00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:19,320 even if there are in Arab countries like Saudi Arabia that 683 00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:22,840 are still on the brink of this normalization with Israel, the 684 00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:28,360 population in various recent polls has demonstrated that it's 685 00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:33,880 it wants the genocide against Gaza and want bank to finish the 686 00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:38,800 Arab population consensus shifting away from Israel. 687 00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:41,760 And that's another very dangerous point. 688 00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:48,960 So I I guess the question is how many lunatics are in power in 689 00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:51,640 the United States? How influenced are they by 690 00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:58,080 lunatics in the Zionist far right extremist factions in 691 00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:01,200 Israel and the United States and even in the UK. 692 00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:04,680 You know how far are they going to be influenced? 693 00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:08,600 And you have to bring in kind of state evangelical end timers 694 00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:13,040 also, but believe that the world has to kind of enter an 695 00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:16,320 apocalypse for the coming of the second coming of Christ. 696 00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:19,640 I mean, you know, people might laugh about that, but that's the 697 00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:23,200 whole point of Alex, the Temple Mount and and all of that. 698 00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:27,480 So it's a big element amongst the Christians and the 699 00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:33,240 evangelicals in America. So we're in a we're really kind 700 00:49:33,240 --> 00:49:36,920 of very scary tipping point, as are pointed out much more 701 00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:43,640 eloquently than yeah, I'm really not at all. 702 00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:47,680 I guess by any measure we've got quite a lot of lunatics at the 703 00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:54,800 top. OK I think we should wrap up 704 00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:56,400 there. I see Richard's dropped off. 705 00:49:56,520 --> 00:49:59,760 I know that we're we're very much overtime now and and I'm 706 00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:03,000 very grateful to everybody for having devoted so much time to 707 00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:04,720 this event. I think it's been extremely 708 00:50:04,720 --> 00:50:07,520 valuable. A lot of great important 709 00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:09,960 information has been disseminated through this event. 710 00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:16,680 It is a bleak time we're in we're witnessing genocide and I 711 00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:24,760 think we are now ended Mike I'm assuming that we oh I'm still 712 00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:26,280 alive. OK it doesn't appear to be I 713 00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:29,120 don't appear to be still alive on my screen but so anyway to 714 00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:35,280 wrap everything up and but that myself to the seriousness of the 715 00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:38,760 situation. Yeah we are at this point we are 716 00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:40,400 at a point where genocide is occurring. 717 00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:43,560 We're at a point where there is potential for great risk of 718 00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:46,920 escalation in the Middle East. Certainly time for populations 719 00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:49,360 to wake up if they haven't already woken up and start 720 00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:51,640 pushing back against their governments and hopefully what 721 00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:55,280 we've heard today from all that, great speakers, excellent 722 00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:58,680 speakers, give some people some kind of sort of ammunition and 723 00:50:58,960 --> 00:51:02,640 tools of intellectual self defence in order to wake up and 724 00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:04,880 push back against what we're seeing at the moment. 725 00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:09,960 So thank you very much for attending and listening to this 726 00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:13,600 event and we hope to see you at the next event, which we will 727 00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:15,760 surely have at some point in the near future. 728 00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:16,800 Thank you very much.