Hello and welcome to another UK column interview.
My name is Debbie Evans, and for those of you that don't know me,
I'm a retired state registered nurse, old school, and I was a
government advisor for the Department of Health for five
years. And even though I'm a retired
nurse and my experience is nursing humans, I also love
animals and I love plants and I love wildlife.
And we all need to eat, right? It doesn't matter whether we're
meat eaters or whether we're plant eaters or vegans,
vegetarians, whatever you eat, we all need to eat.
However, how safe is our food? And we've been talking a lot on
UK column about One Health and I just want to read this out so
that you get this accurately. That's one Health impacts all of
US1 Health is a collaboration of multiple disciplines working
together globally, nationally and locally.
This is in order to obtain optimal health for people,
animals and the environment, and the environment includes plants
as defined by the one Health task force.
Now animals are a great of of great interest to many of you
watching and I'm always delighted to be able to speak to
Roger Meacock, who is pretty much our resident now consultant
veterinary surgeon. And he really is one-of-a-kind.
He's known to us as the gentle vet, the last chance vet.
Roger sees animals that perhaps established medicine has failed
or they've just come to the end of the line.
And his practice, Natural healing Solutions really should
tell you all you need to know about Roger.
And he has experience treating humans as well.
And we've had many previous interviews with Roger.
And for those of you that haven't seen them to go back and
look, the article links will be, I'm sorry, the links will be in
the article beneath this. But for those of you that
haven't seen it and want to go straight to it, we've got an
interview mRNA in animals, the gentle vet who roars Rogers also
been talking to us about big pharma as in PHARMA and small
farmer as in FARMER and another interview fit as a butcher's
dog. So there's plenty on the website
for you to go and look at so that you can get a feel of where
Rogers coming from. But in the light of the recent
farmers protests that Mike Robinson and Bryan Gerrish went
to in London, I thought it was perfect timing when out of the
blue, Roger rang me just the other day and said, I think
something's brewing and I think there's something we need to
talk about. And we did, and we're going to
come to that later on in the interview.
But for now, I thought, let's start at the farmers protests
and welcome, Roger, thank you so much for agreeing to join us
again, because I know you've always got your finger on the
pulse. Say hello to everybody and
perhaps give us a little brief introduction.
Hi, Debbie. Hi, everybody.
Yes, brief introduction to me, I've been a vet for something
years and for the last 25 plus of those, I've been pretty well
exclusively working using complementary alternative
techniques. So I sort of take on, as Debbie
says, there's sort of cases where everybody is maybe
struggling or giving up or they've been given not a lot of
hope or they just want a more natural approach to, to
treatment. So I tend to work on trying to
cure disease rather than rather than suppressing symptoms.
And of course, cure is a bit of a dirty word when it comes to
pharma because, you know, a cured patient is no longer a
customer. So yeah, that's, that's
basically where where I come from.
I started off as a farm vet when I first qualified conventionally
and I still, you know, I still love, love the farming side of,
of what I used to do. Although I don't really do a lot
of farm work now. I sort of see a couple of cows
on, on my fare, my family friendly John's Dairy, Dora's
Dairy, where I get my raw milk and, and John, the farmer there
has done some programs with the UK column as well.
And so occasionally I do still treat a few cows and calves and
things for John when when I'm picking up my raw milk.
So I have this affinity to farming that sort of drove me
really to, to go up to London on Tuesday and support the farmers
and lend my voice and support to their demonstration over the
inheritance tax. And it was interesting being
there really. And the one thing that sort of I
picked up on really struck me was that that doesn't seem too
much grasp, but what's actually happening is deliberate ploy.
And maybe the farmers were giving the government a face
saving way out to reverse their their decision over the
inheritance tax by saying it was a miscalculation of figures and
and all that sort of thing. But I actually don't believe
it's a miscalculation at all. I think they've got every
intention to do what they're trying to do.
They're trying to, they're trying to get rid of small
farmers. They want large farms, they want
industrial farming, they want monoculture.
They want to push everybody towards plant based eating,
which is a carnival myself that just doesn't fit.
And I think that there's more to it than, than is often
presented. And we, we know this really, you
know, from many, many angles. We've, we've come across the
whole rewilding idea of what they want to do to the UK.
We know that they, they want to put wind farms and solar farms
on the, on the farmland and, you know, instead of producing food,
which is what it should be being produced for.
And, and, and there's been sort of came back and watched a few
videos on YouTube and there was a one professor of economics was
saying how actually it was, it was, it was beneficial to the
farmers because it would, it would drive the, the price of
lamb down and that would be good.
And then the people wouldn't want to use it as a tax dodge.
And that's all very well. And there was an element of
truth in what he said, but there's a big but, and that is
the farmers, if they don't got the land value, they've got
nothing to borrow against when they want to buy their half
£1,000,000 worth of combined harvester.
So they need a certain value in the land in order to be able to
to borrow against it, to be able to carry on farming.
And also if the price of land drops, then of course it's going
to be a lot cheaper for the corporations to buy up and put
their wind farms and solar farms and everything else on.
So. And we've also heard from Sandy
Adams in the past how you know the certainly for, for Somerset
that you know, they've got 0 provision for farming in the
future. So there there is definitely a
bigger agenda here than just the inheritance tax.
And as as I think there was a Question Time in Parliament
yesterday and the government were challenged as to whether
they would freeze the inheritance tax as a minimum
guarantee and they wouldn't do that.
So what starts off at 50% of inheritance tax will creep up
and up and up and up and, and before we know it, they'll
decide that's not enough either. And they'll be putting a land
tax on the farms. So, you know, this is a slippery
slope. And, you know, we need to see,
see it for what it is. We know the agendas that are
coming through from the United Nations.
We know the climate agenda and all the rest of it.
And this is all part of that bigger picture that we really
need to be aware of and seeing what's coming on down the road.
Roger, everything that you've said that actually echoes pretty
much what Brian Gerrish and Mike Robinson have said previously as
they went to the farmers protests too.
And what you've said I think is quite concerning.
In effect, what I guess we're suggesting, and correct me if
I'm wrong, is that perhaps the farmers have missed the point
and because they're not seeing the bigger agenda, the agenda
from the WEF, you will own nothing, right?
I mean, everything's going to be apparently seized, including
land. So does it seem to you as though
the farmers need a basic, a basic, I guess, bringing them up
to date, which is where we have got to today.
And what has what has been announced previously that's got
us to where we are? Because I feel as though the
farmers, from what I'm hearing from people at the protest,
don't quite know what action to take.
And because they're focusing straight on the inheritance tax,
they're missing everything else. What can we do to galvanized
farmers and to try to help them understand the bigger picture?
Yeah, good question, Debbie. And it's difficult because
obviously one of the things about farming, it's a way of
life and it starts at 5 O clock, silly O clock in the morning and
it goes through till silly O clock the following morning.
You know, by the time there's no such thing as a nine to five in
a farming job. You know, even even when you
think you've finished and you've, you've put the cows
headed them down for the night and you go in, you have your
tea, then there's another check to do after that.
And if there's a cow carving, think she's probably going to be
all right, there's another check to do after that.
And by then you might decide she's not actually getting on
with it and you need to intervene and help her to carve.
Or maybe it needs to Cesaro, you need to get the vet out.
You know, there was various times when I was a farm, but
where you, there were sort of danger periods, if you like,
when, when sort of the out of hours when I was on duty.
And it would sort of be after the farms after the farm had
finished milking because he'd he'd been too busy milking to
stop. So he'd sort of separated a cow
out and put her on her own to have a check off.
We'd finished milking. So if, if, if she he decided she
needed seeing at that point. That was your first danger point
of being called out in the evening.
And then there was probably another one sort of ten, 11:00
at night. And then there was probably
another danger point sort of midnight to 1:00 in the morning.
So, you know, the farmers are working around the clock and to
be fair to them, they they probably haven't had the
opportunity to to delve into things in in perhaps the same
way that that the rest of us have delved into.
And you know, if they're listening to to Radio 4 or
something on the on on in their tractors, then now they're going
to be getting the BBC narrative as well.
So I don't think it's surprising that a lot of the farmers
haven't latched onto the bigger picture and they're feeling so,
so much under threat. Maybe it's somewhere they don't
particularly want to go either. But but but you know, we do need
to be aware of of what's going on and we do need to educate the
farmers somehow to, you know, to realize that there is this
bigger agenda United Nations and packed for the future and, and
all, you know, and Prince John, King Charles's plans for the UK
and, and these aren't new plans. You know, they don't, they date
back to United Nations many years, you know, 70s, eighties,
90s, where they, they started, you know, talking about how they
wanted to, to rewild countries. I don't know the exact figures
for the UK, but if they mirror, if they mirror what's going on
in the what's planned for the US, which wouldn't surprise me.
Then we're looking at something like a 25% of the country being
rewilded by 20-30 and 50% of the country being rewilded by 2050.
And then the people being kept corralled into 25% of the land
mass with a, with a effective buffer area of the of the
remaining 25%. So you know that that is
certainly what is on the cards. And we look to see what's
happening in the States and Bill Gates have brought up huge
tracts of of farmland there as well.
So, you know, it is, there's definitely a much bigger agenda.
It's been going on a lot longer. And somehow we do need to, to,
to, to get farmers educated. And back in the summer I did a
talk down in, in Devon for, for some farmers down there.
We was primarily on climate. But I, it does does actually, I
think it hit me actually how useful having a face to face
meetings are. And possibly if, if farmers are
there in the having an evening talk somewhere, then that's when
they're probably going to engage more because they can't get
distracted by anything else as to worry about what the, what,
what the cow that they've checked is doing in the, you
know, outside as well too. So we know we do need to support
our farmers and, and you know, as if, if they do what, what has
been talked about in terms of supplying the public direct and
not supplying the supermarkets to try and, you know, make the
government see sense over the inheritance tax issue, then you
know, people need to be supporting their local farmers.
And, you know, go, go and buy locally.
You'll, you'll be amazed at the quality of the food that they're
producing. And and that's, that's the best
we can do is to support them and try and have a engagement
conversation and have a chat with them and, you know, let
them know that there is a bigger picture.
I absolutely hear you. And I think it, I think it's
very important that that we do hear that message from people
like you, Roger, of how hard the farmer's life is and that it is
24 hours. And as you as you were talking
about, I was writing a few things down because of course,
they're under intense scrutiny and pressure with Defra.
So they have them to negotiate. Often they have vets bills and
vets visits to pay for and to organize, whether that be in the
middle of the night or whenever. And I was shocked actually, at
the cost of farming equipment. I mean, you know, it runs into
half a million, a million, you know, easy, easy for for
combined harvesters, as you were mentioning before.
I was shocked at the price and also the danger that's involved
in farming. I think it's probably, if not
the most dangerous profession, it's one of the most dangerous
profession because of all the equipment and the danger that's
that surrounds it. So I completely get that why
farmers may not have picked up on the memo of what we're
seeing. And I know that, you know, here
on the UK column, Charles Mallett has done a huge amount
of work with some of your colleagues as well, Roger, and
some of your contacts on raw milk and, and farming and not
just farming in the UK, but farming abroad.
And I think I would like to make this interview a specific shout
out. If anybody is watching that
knows a farmer or is a farmer or is involved in the movement at
all, please come and watch UK Column because we support you
and everything that Rogers just said about you need to be
providing us directly with the food.
Don't send it to Tesco, don't send it to Sainsbury.
Any other good supermarket will do.
I won't say good and I'll take that word out.
Any other supermarket is included.
Sell it to us direct. We will support you, our
audience will support you and we need to know where you are.
And of course, Roger, that goes to the next question.
And many people are going to be watching this and going, well,
I'm in the middle of Birmingham, I'm in the middle of Manchester.
I'm in the middle of London. Where do I find a farm shop?
How can small farmers get to the public easy, more easily if
we're not living in a rural? I mean, I'm very fortunate we
have a farmers market once a week locally.
So I can go to that and I can pick up fresh, organic local
produce, whether that's meat or whether it's fruit, vegetables,
whatever. So what happens to people in the
city? How can farmers help us and how
can we help them? Yeah, good question, Debbie.
I know, you know, cities have expanded and and, you know, sort
of in days gone by, the cities weren't that big and they could
go out to the countryside and farms were that much closer to
be able to supply the bigger cities.
But it is a problem. It is a problem and I'm, I mean,
some of the farms will have food, you know, do food boxes
which can be sent out. I mean, I, I buy some of my meat
from my carnival diet, I'll buy the buy it online in bulk, get a
better price and it will be delivered to me on the day that
I choose. And it comes sort of semi frozen
or, or chilled in packages and, and, and it's fresh and then I
can, I can freeze it and use it as I, as I need.
So, you know, there are ways around doing it for those who
are, you know, maybe not so accessible to go into a farm
shop directly. I've got a sort of vision a bit
like, you know, we could replace supermarkets with, with
something equivalent sized building.
But it isn't a supermarket run by a company.
It is a collection of local producers within the one space.
So people have the advantage of going in a bit.
It is exactly the same as a farmers market, but they tend to
be outside, don't they, farmers markets.
What we do need is we need sort of a chain of, of warehouses
around the around the countryside, around the whole
country where local farmers basically just sell or local
butchers. They have, they have one sort of
corner of it and, and, and it's sort of, you know, an
amalgamation of, of local produce rather than something
that shipped in from the other side of the world.
So, and actually, they are, you know, the healthiest food we can
eat is what's produced locally for us.
And there's there's good scientific reasons why that is,
you know, getting these tropical fruits in the middle of the
winter is actually not good for us for.
It increases the the deuterium, the heavy hydrogen that we that
we get in the body when our body is at a time of year we can't
and get rid of it in quite the same way.
So there are health reasons why local produce is is the best
produce produce that we can we can buy and and eat at in season
without getting it shipped all around the world.
So, you know, there are we need we need to be keeping UK
production to be able to support UKUK health.
And it is it's that fundamental. So, you know, it's just so
important that we support our farmers and you know, and
recognize the job that they do. And as you say, you know, there
are dangers around farms that I remember when I was a student
and before we went out on to farm experiences and things, we
got shown, you know, health and safety film about hazards on a
farm because of all the potential and situations we
might be in when we were students and we were going to
get farm experience. And then later on, obviously we
got we got experience, you know, it's been reside on farms and
things as well. So, you know, there are hazards
there that they just got to deal with.
And you know the idea. I saw a great meme on Facebook
yesterday. Obviously we had a bit of snow
around the country yesterday and you hear about schools closing
down, which never used to happen in our day.
You know, we'd go along and have a great big snowball fight at
play time. And it was great fun.
And nobody, nobody got badly hurt.
You know, everybody might got wet, but that was probably and
cold a bit. But that was the worst that
happened to us. And there was a great man that
said, you know, new breaking news farmers working through the
snow, you know, because it doesn't matter what the weather
is that the animals still need feeding or milking or saying to
checking some of some of the field jobs may not be possible
when the weather is bad. But there's always something to
do around a farm. And it is that it's a, it's a
complete lifestyle. And that was why I went into
being a form vet when I first started because I, I enjoyed
that out outside lifestyle and, and feeling that I was part of a
business as well. You know, the farmers weren't
just clients to me. They were my friends.
I saw them on a regular basis. They probably didn't want to see
me necessarily as often as they did, but you know, certainly on
the dairy side, we were doing a lot of routine visits to try and
help keep productivity as carving patterns tight and
things like that. So you know, you when you when
you're there on a regular basis and you know, for an hour or two
at a time doing doing certain jobs, then you know, you get to
have all the conversations and the farmers become your friends
as much as as much as he clients.
And that was that was the sort of aspects of veterinary life,
but I enjoyed. And then when I sort of went
down, the alternative field didn't really lend itself very
much or very well to the same degree to to the farm animal
side of things. But but I still have that
affinity, you know, with that farming background.
Well, you know, everything that you've said that Roger really
just points more to what I've been saying for ages, which the
UK is being made deliberately, engineered deliberately to
become unsustainable. You know, we hear about the
sustainable goals. We're all going to to fire off
loads of money because of the sustainable initiatives.
And yet the UK is unsustainable. We, we can't sustain ourselves
with food. And, and what you said there
about local produce. Now I hear this so many times
from herbal medicine practitioners, especially saying
use local herbs, herbs that are indigenous to this country.
If you use things from other countries, they may not work as
well. Use it.
Use your local, your local resources and honey.
For example, an amazing Heather honey in Scotland from one of
our amazing herbal practitioners, Brian Lamb works
absolutely fantastically for all sorts of health issues including
sore throats, strep A. Yet if you use a honey perhaps
that's more specialised from another country, it may not work
as well. So it really is very important
to support our local farmers, farmers in the UK.
But you know, Roger, you know so much about the the agenda and
what's going on. And there are going to be
hopefully some farmers watching today, perhaps that have never
watched before, that have got all the best intentions in the
world but just haven't had the time to catch up with stuff.
If you had to summarise everything just to give them a
hint of what they are up against, what would your message
to them be? I'm sorry that's put you on the
spot a little bit, but what would you say directly to any,
any small farmer or any farmer now that's watching perhaps for
the first time? Well, certainly we need them to
keep going is the is the main message.
You know, don't give up because I think times will change and,
and people will ultimately, you know, look to local produce and,
and regenerative farming is definitely one that's around the
corner. And that has to be good for the
farmers. It has to be good for the
animals as well, because they're not under such, you know, high
pressure to, to, to produce as well.
So, you know, there are better times ahead.
I'm, I'm sure. And I think this whole global
agenda, which is what it's all about, really will ultimately
fail. I think there's people are
waking up and seeing it for what it is, but there is definitely
an intention to, you know, sort of go down the whole sort of
multinational corporate route. You know, we, we hear of, of
companies like Monsanto buying up all the seeds.
So that, and stopping farmers around the world from saving
their seeds so that they have to keep buying from, from the,
from, from the, from the seed producers now.
And you know, so, but there is definitely a bigger agenda here.
And as we know, I mean, if you look at the C 40s webs cities
website, they talk about ideally getting our meat consumption
down to 0. But but they think realistically
they can get us down to 16 kilos of meat a year, probably do
that. I don't know in a couple of
weeks, But so I'm going to, I'm going to be very thin by the end
of the year. So we do need, we do need, you
know, our farmers to keep, keep producing and, and I think, you
know, they're going to have to maybe sit it out for a little
while and, and, and sweat it out, but, but stick to their
guns. And, you know, just keep, keep
trying to find ways to, to keep going.
Because I think the time will, will, will turn.
And, you know, people will start looking for locally, you know,
locally produced food and produce and, and, and the
quality of it as well. You know, our farmers are, have
got some of the highest welfare levels in the whole world.
You know, certainly, you know, we got rid of pig stalls and
things like that in the UK before that, before lots of
other countries around the world.
So, you know, our farmers are looking out for the animals as
much as they possibly can. There's always things that that
everything can always be improved, as you know, and, and,
and they know that as well, and they're always trying to do
that. But it's got to be economic at
the same time for them to keep going.
And so if we want animal welfare to improve, then we've got to
keep supporting those who are actually pushing it forward,
which is the UK farmer. So I would always urge people
whenever you possibly can to, you know, by British meat, you
know, search, you search it out, seek it out.
It is a higher quality and you know, and especially if you're
getting it directly from, from farms, you know exactly where
it's coming from. And a lot of them will, will
actually let you know. People have a look around the
farm and see how the far how the cows have, you know, produced
and how they're living and the welfare that they have got.
And so, you know, we need to support them, but they need to
keep going as well. We really do, and I would really
like to put out a message to anybody that's watching Farmers
Vets. Please reach out to Roger.
If you don't know what the plan is and you haven't got the time
to do the research and gain the amount of amazing knowledge that
Roger's got, then please reach out to Roger because I know that
Roger goes and talks to groups and he's desperately trying to
get this message out and we all need to work together.
Before I swerve on to really the reason that we're talking today,
which was goes back to our our phone call and your concerns.
Just a couple more questions. How do you see animals in 15
minute cities? Because as we've just said, you
know, people are wanting to get away from cities, to get into
rural areas, to be near farms, to grow their own produce and to
go back to the land themselves. So will we have animals at all
in 15 minute cities? I don't know is the honest
answer to to that, Debbie. I don't think they've actually
sort of set out within their different regimes for and
visions for 15 minute cities. I don't think they mentioned
pets because they would probably know that there's so many of us
have a pet. So we love having our dogs or
our cats or, or other animals as, as pets that if they
suddenly started saying, oh, you know, by the way, you're sharing
your flat and, and you know, you, you'll, you'll have it for,
for 12 hours of the day. And then you go to work and then
someone else will come and have it for the other 12 hours of the
night, You know, and there's been, there was a, there was a
series on TV, some sort of drama.
Wasn't that based on that whole idea?
So that's sort of seeding that idea that, you know, you'll know
nothing. Everything will be shared and
obviously if you're in a situation like that, it's
difficult to see how pets would fit in unless you had, you know,
unless the pet was shared as well.
But you know, people, people love their own animals and not
everybody would have the same want the same choices as you
know, far from ideal. So, you know, they'd, I really
don't see how within the 15 minute cities they, they
envisage pets really fitting in. But, and no one's really asked a
question other than what we're discussing here is first time I
think I've heard anybody discuss that whole idea of what might
happen to pets in, in the 15 minute city scenario.
And people, certainly, you know, UK people, we love our animals
and the idea that we might be banned from, from owning pets
or, or the situation just isn't, isn't possible.
You know, a lot of people would would, so perhaps get up in arms
over that more than they do seem to want to worry about
themselves. When you say that about no pets
in 15 minute cities, it makes perfect sense because if I think
about the existing cities that we have now that we're all
living in now, I was talking to a neighbour only the other day
and I was saying we haven't had in this country for I can't, I
don't know when it was wiped out, but pest control where the
local authority were, you know, you'd have your rat catcher and
you could just call the council and they would turn up for a
small fee and they would get rid of whatever pest it would.
We don't have that and we currently have more rats on the
planet than we do humans. So whilst we're not allowing
domestic pets that we all love and look after, and if
everybody's the same as me, our pets are king and queen in the
house and yet we let pests and rats and rodents just go UN
policed completely. That's just an observation
because we don't have any pest control at the moment and
haven't done for a long time. But that kind of brings me on.
It's going to bring me on to the second part of what we're going
to discuss, and it's to set the scene, right?
It's just to set the scene. Because when you said it the
other day on the phone, Rodger, I hadn't actually thought about
it. And now I am because as you
know, my life is surrounded by sewage because I'm a sewer flood
victim. And you see slurry trucks
driving around. But do we give any consideration
to what slurry is and what we're putting on our fields?
So before I go any further, because you know where I'm going
with this, can you just describe to people what slurry is?
Well, to put not too blunt a turn on, it's just processed
shit. And unfortunately sort of in the
old, you know, sort of in the old days, the farmers obviously
we're spreading their their farming Ave. on on the fields as
fertilizer. With the increase in human
population in the UK and the way so slurry human human excrement
is being being processed, it is now also being used as sort of
fire fertilizer on fields. And I think, you know, there's
a, there's a real potential hazard to doing that because
obviously, you know, pathogens, we, we've got our gut micro
microbiome, which obviously has got good bacteria and not so
good bacteria and viruses and things in there as well.
And I'm sure we're the best will in the world.
Even when it's processed, you know, what's being spread on the
field will potentially have that ability for, you know, to can to
can still have things that that shouldn't be there and could
potentially get into the soil and potentially into our crops.
And I know from past conversations, one of the big
risks of that is actually prions because they aren't easily dealt
with. They can go into the soil and
the latest research shows that roots of plants can actually
uptake prions and redistribute them to the leaves.
So if those people who are plant based in their diet think that
they have got no risk of getting prion diseases because they
don't eat animals, think again. And we see this happening in in
the USA, especially with chronic wasting disease in deer, which
is spreading hugely. And in deer, they've talked
about horizontal transmission in deer.
So from 1 deer to another. I wonder whether that how much
that actually happens. I I suspect it is more likely
that deer in a little mini herd will obviously all be in the
same area. And so if prions are being
excreted in the deer dung and then that's going into the soil
and then the plants are up taking it and then the deer are
eating the plants, I suspect that might be the route by which
the transmission is happening horizontally.
But, but obviously the risk there and the warning for us is
that be careful what you spread on your fields.
And as we worry about how we might be inducing prion diseases
in animals in the future, if we start introducing mRNA products
into, into the veterinary side of, of, of work, then we know
that they can be prionogenic. And you know, it's not difficult
to see that if we're giving pronogenic products to our farm
animals in significantly large volumes, just the number of
animals involved will mean at some point in the future there
will be prions being produced. And if they get, if that feces
is then going and slurry is going on to the fields, then we
risk it going into our, into our human food chain.
So there's all sorts of of of dangers of, you know, in what we
see is progress. Sometimes I'm not always sure it
is. For viewers that don't know and
may not understand prions, Roger and we've talked about it many
times before. And if you haven't seen our
previous interviews, then do go back and to look at them.
But for people that that don't know, can you just very briefly
and very simply explain prions and also the relationship
between we've all heard or most of us have heard of mad cow
disease or Kreutzfeld Jacob disease, and most of us have
heard of dementia and many of us get confused.
But there's a tie up with all of those things, isn't that?
Can you explain very simply to our viewers what prions are and
how this effects those diseases in animals and humans that
you've just mentioned? For people that may not know and
also actually while I'm while I'm at it horizontal and
vertical, they may not understand that too.
OK, yeah. So basically prions are
infectious proteins. So they're transmissible and
they, they, there's a whole class of diseases called
transmissible spongiform encephalopathies, which
Kreutzfeld Jacob is the, is the human version mad cow disease.
BSE is the, is the cattle version.
Scrapey is the sheep version. And what they discovered, or
what we originally thought was that just by eating infected
beef back in the 1990s, it was discovered in, in, in cattle,
then mad cow disease, that eating that infected beef could,
could effectively infect people. But originally it was thought
that it was just transmitted through the nervous tissue
because it affects the brain, hence this encephalopathy part
of of the name. But actually they've discovered
that the prions will go into the meat as well.
So all aspects of it. So basically we've got a protein
in our body which has got a certain folding, if you like a
certain physical structure and it can change in structure and
it but forms bit like a crystal. You know, if you put a Chris
have a crystal in a salt strong solution, it the crystal grows.
So a bit like if once you get a prion hap in, in the body, it
causes these proteins to fold in another way, which causes the
proteins around them to, to fold the same way and, and form these
sort of plaques, if you like, which, which cause 'cause
disease, sort of neurological diseases.
So you know, it. And horizontal spread is, is if
something goes from peer-to-peer.
So within a herd it would pass, it would pass for, you know, a
long horizontal vertical spread is if it goes between
generations. So altered, altered.
So that's basically the very brief overview, very simplified
overview of, of, of prions. So but but it can happen to
other proteins as well, like amyloid is another.
Protein which you get amyloidosis, which is sort of
again a misfolding of proteins and we know that the jabs caused
some of that as well. And of course, you mentioned
spongy form and careful and kephalopathy there and the
spongy form. I'll just say to our listeners
who may not be aware, I know that some of you will.
So apologies to those of you that are, but the spongy form
comes from in humans where the brain looks like it resembles a
sponge. So it actually gets holes in it
and therefore people get very confused and it can often be
misdiagnosed. I guess for dementia or what
I've certainly heard, and I've coined the phrase turbo dementia
because I'm hearing from a lot of doctors who have had patients
with Alzheimer's or dementia for years and years and years and
all of a sudden they've deteriorated very quickly and
have have died much sooner than was expected.
So we also mustn't forget that Neil Ferguson, Professor Neil
Ferguson, Imperial, who did the modelling incorrectly for mad
cow disease, he modelled for COVID.
Am I right in that, Roger? Yes, he did yeah.
He he predicted that there would be a lot of, you know, couple of
100,000 deaths from from BSE in people going to new variant CJD.
But it but it thankfully it didn't happen in in that way.
Yeah. And prones are very difficult
to, they can't be denatured by heat or anything like that.
Or so they're very difficult to, to get rid of once once they've
been established. So, you know, that's what's so
concerning to me when I put did my open letter of concern to the
very medicines directive about the potential use of mRNA
vaccines called, you know, and not vaccines, but will, you
know, mRNA jabs in in animals. I was concerned that if they got
used in the food chain that they could be pronogenic and could
cause these start causing these problems.
And so, yeah, I've sort of been trying to keep keep up to date
and keep on top of that, that current situation.
What is the current situation at the moment, Roger with mRNA in
animals. I know everybody's because we're
all, you know, many people that are watching are quite cautious
now about seeking advice from the NHS or seeking advice from a
doctor. And now more people are even
more cautious about what they're eating, quite rightly.
But people are worried. So what is the situation?
Are animals, especially livestock, the ones in the food
chain? Are any of them getting mRNA or
is there more stuff to roll out yet?
Certainly in the UK we haven't got mRNA in being used in the
veterinary field at all here in the UK yet.
But it is all, it is already been in use in the USA for pigs
since 2018. And actually this year later or
earlier this year starting in June, they started using a
rolling out mRNA jabs in pets in in certain countries.
So it started off with an Mr. Well, they're calling them RNA
particle vaccines. So they're trying to hide the
fact that they are an mRNA jab. But they were being rolled out
for rabies in Canada. And there was also a dog
influenza mRNA product, RNA particle product rolled out in
USA, Mexico, Chile and the Philippines.
And then there was an announcement in September this
year that there was an FELV feline leukemia virus mRNA
particle vaccine for cats. And they're all being rolled out
by a company called Nobby Back and they're called Nobby Back
NXT vaccine. So Nobby Back have actually been
around for a long time and a lot of the conventional vaccines are
Nobby Back viruses. So just because you see not be
back on your on your pet passport or, or vaccination
schedule or whatever, it doesn't necessarily mean that they've
had an mRNA product. It's, you know, they, they
aren't widespread yet. There are only these certain NXT
their products which have got this RNA particle technology, as
they're calling it within it. But I did a Freedom of
Information to the VMD relatively recently to find out
what the current state of play with.
And what they could tell me was that there aren't any trials
ongoing at the moment in the UK. There aren't any products
licensed in the UK at the moment.
What they couldn't tell me obviously because I suppose it's
commercially sensitive is what is in the pipeline.
And we have to consider that if Merck MSD who have produced
these rabies, canine influenza and FELV for cats in the States
and elsewhere, you know, they're not going to not want to roll
them out in Europe and the UK and all around the world.
So we need to keep our eyes and ears to the ground certainly on
on that front. You know, my Freedom of
Information is, is good, but it only, it doesn't last very long.
You know, it could be out of date in, in a month's time.
So, you know, we've, we've just got to keep our ears to the
ground and, and see what's going on.
And I'd like to reiterate that actually to everybody, if you
didn't catch it first time around, what Roger said, that
was extremely valuable I think for everyone in the fact that we
know mRNA as mRNA, right? But clearly, it would seem that
in the animal world, they've renamed it RNA particle
vaccines. So I think it's very important
that people are aware of that difference in language and know
what to look out for and know what to ask about.
So I think that's extremely valuable.
So thank you for that. And I'm going to bring us to the
bombshell now because you rang me the other day and you said,
Debbie, I'm worried about something.
And you know, all around us we're seeing these stories of
bird flu, avian flu, transmission to human zoonosis,
which is the transmission of a virus or illness from animal to
human. But we've also talked about
reverse zoonosis as well, which is the other way around.
And in these days of bird flu, you suddenly thought and talked
about PCR tests, didn't you, Roger?
And you wrote a an Foy And you've got a little bit to say
about this. So I'm going to hand over to you
to tell, to tell everyone what you've been doing, what you've
been finding out, and what the possible repercussions could be
and the consequences. So over to you PCR tests.
Yeah, PCR. I mean, we, nobody had really
heard of them, although they've been around for a long while, I
suppose, until COVID came along. And we sort of professor Fenton
and a few others talked about false positives and things like
that. And we sort of knew that they
weren't necessarily as reliable as they were being made out to
be. Especially with PCI, what you do
is your cycling. You're, you're, you're
amplifying at each cycle the amount of particle that you're
trying to find up so that you know 2 becomes before becomes 8
becomes 16, becomes 32 becomes 64128 and, and keeps on going.
And so very soon after you've done a relatively short number
of cycles, you, you've massively amplified what is there.
And so there was a, a paper I think published basically said
if you cycle more than 23 times, then it means in order to find
something to detect something, it means what was there in the
original sample wasn't there in sufficient quantities to be
considered really infectious in the clinical situation.
And we also know knew that Carrie Mullis who developed the
PCR testing, got the Nobel Prize for doing so.
He'd said you shouldn't be using PCR tests in a clinical
situation. But it wasn't actually until I
wrote an article for my sub stack because I'm on sub stack
as natural vet and I did an article on PCR test and the
penny suddenly dropped as to why Carrie Mullis had said you
shouldn't be using PCR tests in a clinical situation.
And basically he developed PCR because he was doing sort of
gene editing and genetic, you know, looking at mutations and
things. And so he needed to be able to
detect in his post treatment sample whether whether what he'd
been trying to introduce had actually been successful or not.
And so PCR is really developed to detect these relatively short
strands of nucleic acids. So about 2020 bases long, which
isn't very, very much in, in the grand scale of how long our
genes are or how much nuclear acid material there are in in
viruses and bacteria and things. And so he was using it to
distinguish between two known strands effectively.
So he had a finite N = 2 possibility of, you know, as as
to what that could be in his test tube, which is a very
different situation. When you've got a microbiome
that has got millions and billions of bacteria and viruses
throughout our on our skin, in our gut, in our ears, you know,
every orifice that that we have will have all these thousands
say billions of of micro microbiome in there.
And so to use APCR test on a swab, the chances of finding
that sequence, a relatively short sequence of only twenty
faces is quite highly probable. And so you end up in a situation
where organisms are being misidentified based on APCR
test. So I was concerned obviously we,
we, as you say, when we started hearing about avian flu and sort
of lock downs and the colds and then there's talk of other
potential notifiable diseases around the countryside.
And also with my background worry about as we spoke at the
beginning about what what is what is in the pipeline for
farming, I was concerned about how PCR tests might be being
used in veterinary medicine. So I contacted the Veterinary
Medicines Directive, who are the authorization regulating body
for veterinary medicines and products in the UK.
And I asked them, how do you justify having authorized PCR
testing in fit, fit fit for clinical use on the basis that
Carrie Malice said it shouldn't be done For these reasons.
And the risk of false positives is, is very high.
And how, how are you, how are you using PCR tests to, to make
sure that those false positives don't manifest and the clinical
decisions and important decisions in terms of farm
lockdown and potentially cull orders aren't going to be based
on something that's pie in the sky.
And I was absolutely gobsmacked to get an e-mail back saying,
no, we don't authorize them and not regulate it.
And it's like, hang on a minute. These, this is a medical
instrument that's been used for, for a diagnostic situation.
And I think every vet will be in the UK.
Anybody who's, anybody who's using the, the PCR test probably
automatically assumes like I did that there was some sort of
check and balance on these tests.
A to make sure that they were what they said in the tin and
that the there was a sort of knowledge and understanding of
what the risk of false positives and negatives are from them as
well. And that they were then overseen
and checked that that are regulated and unauthorized and
all the rest of it. So I don't think probably any
vet in the UK didn't realize that that hadn't occurred.
And I was they suggested suggested that I contact the PCR
test manufacturers. Well, we know they aren't, you
know, we know farmer is the biggest criminal group in the
world. They've had the highest fines
and, you know, had the highest harms to to people and
deliberately ignored it in the past.
You know what the level of trust, unfortunately that that's
been generated as a result of their past history, you know, is
going to be extended to, to the to, to the medical instruments
in terms of PCR tests and everything else as well.
So asking, asking the the manufacturer I didn't feel was a
the right thing that, that I should have to do.
And BI wouldn't necessarily trust that that work had been
done necessarily either. And so it does sort of beg the
question as to how PCR tests are being used in clinical
situations, especially on farms. And I understand that obviously
if there is a concern over the potential presence of a disease
such as even influenza that they want a quick result.
And obviously APCR test will will give a relatively quick
result. But again, I don't know what the
protocols are for, for doing those PCR tests as to whether
they are how many cycles they're being put through.
And as far as I'm concerned, APCR test could only be
considered part of the information necessary in order
to make such a decision. Because ideally the risk of, of
false positives is such that unless there's some sort of
isolation and identification process going alongside in
parallel, then how do you know whether that PCR test is
positive or no true positive or false positive.
So that was my sort of big, big concern is that then, you know,
if PC, if PCR tests are going to be used on a wide scale use, you
know, assuming there was some big outbreak of, of, of avian
flu. And then, you know, obviously
the we had scaremongering back in, back in the summer of, of,
of it being transmissible to cows and then being in milk and
things like that. So, so it wasn't clear what the
how, how the PCR test might be being used and therefore what
the farmers might be being asked to subject their cows to in
terms of testing with possible major implications based on on
that result. And if it was just being based
on PCR and there was no proper isolation and identification
going on, then you could have potentially no hell herds being
culled without, you know, without, without good scientific
basis. And the trouble with, with
isolation and identification is it takes time.
And of course, if it, if it takes four or five days for
identification, isolation to, to, to, to, to actually get a
result, you know, the Defra would argue that that's too long
to have waited. So, so I can sort of see a
potential situation where APCR test is used initially and if it
comes back positive, a farm is, is perhaps given a lockdown, but
you would hope no curl is, is put in order, is put in place
until at least an isolation and identification in a way that
doesn't use PCR has been done to actually make sure that that is
the real situation. So the sort of the, there's a,
there's a lot of concern and, and not a lot of clarification,
I'm afraid. But my concerns haven't been
met. They haven't been really dealt
with. And the VMD passed my, my
questions on to the APHA and I've also chased them up as well
to say, you know, what is, what is the current situation?
How, how are PCR tests being used on, on, you know, within
these notifiable disease situations?
And what is, what is your position in guaranteeing that,
you know, a Co order or even a lockdown order can have quite
significant financial implications for farms.
You know, it's, it makes a bit, it makes a big difference.
So you know, what is, what is what it, what is that protocol
in place? So they are, we're still waiting
for them to get back to me on that.
And what people don't necessarily realise is farmers
will get penalised if their animals are put on lockdown and
they say they, you know, it's pig farm for argument's sake and
they can't sell, send their pigs at the right time to, to, to
market for slaughter. Then if they have to wait and
the pigs obviously will carry on being fed and carry on growing
and they'll carry on putting too much fat potential, what's
regarded as too much fat down, you know, on the, on the body
composition, Then the farmers will actually get penalized for,
for that, for submitting pigs that aren't of the right
quality, which is ridiculous because if they've been put on
a, on a lockdown order and this actually happened during COVID
where, you know, farmers were penalized for submitting
animals. But even though everything had
been locked down that that we're outside of the accepted
parameters for the carcasses. So you know this, there are huge
implications for farmers in terms of making sure that the
testing that might have some implication implications for for
movement and also potentially for cull that those tests are as
accurate as they possibly can be and PCR is not that.
I think what you've just said there, Roger, is an absolute
bombshell, quite honestly. And I have to sort of say the
what if. I mean, it really is a what if
now. I mean, you're saying that PCR
tests are being used, although they're not mandated.
There's no process. There's no balances or checks or
anything about them or on them. And what if, for example, and I
know that a flock has been culled fairly recently for avian
flu and I'm keeping an eye on the clock, by the way, but I do
think this deserves just an extra few minutes because it's
so huge. Because what if hypothetically,
a farmer calls the vets because he's got two 3-4, maybe poorly
chickens and the vet comes out with PCR tests.
And what you're saying there, of course, is the alternative to
APCR test for people that don't know is a cult culture is, is,
is doing a test that might take 3 or 4 days.
That's, that's got to be incubated.
It's got to be tested. It's got to be cultured in order
to find out what the disease is. And of course, as you've said,
Roger, that takes days. Whereas APCR test is quick,
however it's completely inaccurate.
It wasn't designed to do this. And if vets are going into
farms, I mean, by the way, how do you PCR test a chicken?
Well, they must be taking swabs. So and it may be if they, you
know, if in that scenario, if they've got a flock of chickens
and one or two of them have died, then then probably do a
post mortem on them. So I would hope that there is a
culture, an identification process going alongside in
parallel. But but I but I don't you know,
I would yeah, I would hope that there is and I suspect that
there is. But but obviously there is going
to be a movement order slapped on that farm straight away if
they do the PCSPCR test as as an initial as an initial screen, if
you like. But even that has has app has,
you know, applications. And I suppose you could argue if
there wasn't APCR test doing, they would just put a movement
order on them anyway until until an identification and isolation
identification was properly carried out.
So they would get they would get a movement order slot slapped on
them anyway. So PCR, I suppose if it comes
back negative, that could potentially give them an all
clear, which is better than nothing.
But even then we did, we still don't know what, what's the
false negative risk of the PCR tests either.
So it's, it's not ideal from from anybody's point of view.
And I 100% think that the vets don't realize, you know, they're
given a test and it says PCR test or, you know, or they're
told that they can get APCR test done on, on swabs for, for these
diseases. They, they trust because we've
got to, you know, what else are you going to do?
You've got, you've got to trust that that test does what it says
on the tin. And unless you've been through
some sort of scientific training in terms of laboratory research
to fully understand the PCR test.
And it was so it was only because I suddenly went into it
in such depth in order to do my sub stack that it, it sort of
suddenly dawned on me. But I actually hadn't fully,
although I, I'd understood the hesitancy around PCR tests
during COVID, I actually hadn't fully understood it.
And, and so that's I think is just the critical situation
where no, we, you know, PCR tests aren't supposed to being
used in clinical situations, you know, and swap will be done.
It might be a respiratory swab or it might be done on a, on a
chicken's cloaca to if, if it's, you know, if it's, you know,
I've got diarrhea or something, then then, you know, looking
for, for maybe other, other diseases as well.
So, you know, I just wonder what, what's going on.
And, you know, and people also need to understand the PCR test
for, you know, because obviously what I'm saying for animals is
equally, equally applicable for, for people as well.
Not that we're under risk of, of of a cow order, but obviously,
you know, people, people, people are going to be potentially
restricting themselves on the basis of a back of APCR test
without fully understanding that actually there's a with that.
If they haven't got clinical disease symptoms, the chances of
them being infectious and having that disease actually without
knowing the false positive rate of the of the PCR test is, is,
is highly dubious. And you know, as they're talking
about this whole mRNA platform being something where you can
then develop a vaccine very quickly.
We can see potentially how if PCR tests are being used as they
were during COVID to to amplify and ramp up, you know, the
scaremongering and the warning over something, you know, may we
talk about it in terms of COVID, but it might be something
completely different. You know, we know that they're
developing an mRNA vaccine for for people for for norovirus.
So if you can, you can imagine a situ situation where any, any
person who had a bit of diarrhea suddenly got had APCR test done
on that sample and it suddenly came up norovirus that they, not
that they need it, it will self limit in a couple of days
anyway. But they will be used as
leverage to encourage them or to or to make them have, you know,
the equivalent, the appropriate mRNA job.
So I think, you know, we, we need to understand PCR testing
and understand it's, it's limitations because if we're not
careful, it'll be potentially be one of the leverages which will
be used to push what we know they're trying to do, which is
to really develop this whole mRNA platform across a whole
myriad of different diseases. And although we're early days
now and there's only a few of them on the market, we certainly
know that there are others intended.
And, you know, the last UK government invested so much
money in Moderna to, to produce so many, you know, millions of
pounds a year contract that you know, they, they will want to be
using, using, using those, those jabs.
And they want to position the UK as the head of the lead country
in the whole mRNA platform. So, you know, we, we've got to
be aware of how that pressure could be bought to bear on, on
people and for themselves, but also for their animals for, for
using these products, which we know actually as a whole
platform is inherently unsafe. For all the vets and farmers out
there, what do they do? I mean, if a if a vet walks
through into your farm armed with APCR test, does the farmer
question it? Does the farmer agree to it?
And similarly, if you're a vet and you're watching, should you
be using APCR test? What are the consequences of a
false positive? Could that herd or could that
flock be called as a result of that one PCR test?
I mean, these are incredibly important messages to to farmers
or to all of us, but especially to farmers and to vets because
potentially, and I'm just hypothetically saying this now,
but potentially if farmers are listening and they go, well,
actually do you know what? We'd rather be put on a movement
order and have a proper culture and know for sure what we're
dealing with rather than rely on a fake or an inaccurate test
that could potentially wipe out my whole flock or wipe out my
whole herd. We could.
Could we get scenes in the future of farmers going to vets?
Actually, we don't want you coming onto our property.
If Defra come down hard and say yes, you have to use PCR tests
and farmers decide no, well we don't want to because they're
not accurate and they're not effective.
I mean, the farmers need to know this, right?
So as they're doing their farmers protests and they're
looking inheritance tax, they need to be look at the
consequences of potentially something that may seem quite
innocuous APCR test that they might not have considered could
have huge consequences. Have I summarized that correctly
or do you want to add to that or correct me on anything there?
Now I think that's, you know, those potential situations are
very valid and I would, I would say to, to any vets out there,
you know, ask the questions, you know, don't necessarily believe
me, but ask you ask the questions yourself.
Now look into the PCR test yourself.
Make sure that you understand what it is that it's that it's
doing, how it works, how it could potentially produce false
positives and false negatives. And recognize that if there is a
high probability, as I think there is, of producing a false
positive, that it is only used in combination with isolation
identification. And, you know, be aware of of
the consequences of if, if PCR test is just being used on its
own, you know, where is that potentially going to lead to in
terms of the same movement orders or, or other restrictions
or culls or whatever. And the farmers also need to be
asking those questions of the vets as well and sort of saying
to them, you know, if if is that APCR test that you're going to
be doing? If the vet says yes, then they
can say, well, OK, are we doing and isolation and identification
in parallel with that? What's the difference?
What, what are the time scales for those two different tests?
And they might say, well, we'll get the PCR test back tomorrow,
but we'll get the identification and isolation potentially back
in, in, in, I don't know four or five days time or whatever,
whatever it is. And the pharmacy needs to then
ask the question, well, if you PCR test comes back positive,
what restrictions are you going to put on my farm?
What, what implication is that going to have for my business?
And you know, if they come back and say, oh, we're going to, we
would be able to issue a cull notice straight away.
Then pharma needs to say, well, hang on a minute, what if it's a
false positive? Because there's a potential here
for it to be so because of how the PCR test works.
So, you know, I think there has to be, everybody needs to
question what they're doing and what they're allowing to have
done because that because they're, you know, they need to
understand what those implications are and what is the
risk of of, you know, false test results.
And that's, you know, that should be standard practice.
And you know, I'm not trying to ask anybody to be doing anything
that other than what they should naturally be doing anyway.
You know, farmers obviously, especially, you know, whether
there's some dairy farm, whether we know the cows are there on a
on a much longer term basis than than raising chickens for meat,
for example. Now that, you know, the farmers
have have an affinity to those to those cows and those family
lines that they've bred. But hours of, of choosing into
to breed those lines of cows and they won't, won't want to risk,
you know, a cull situation unless it's absolutely 100%
stone cold necessary for for whatever reason.
And you know, those decisions can only and should only be
being made when we've got really reliable tests that are being
carried out in the way that they're supposed to be being
carried out. And I should say APCR test
should only ever be used in combination with isolation and
identification. If animals have voices, I think
every single one of them that was listening to this interview
would be screaming. We want Roger as our vets
because on the column here, we've met some amazing doctors
and many of us have said, oh, if only you were just around the
corner. If only you were our GP.
And I think there are going to be many animals and many animal
owners who are going off. We need to contact Roger and all
Rogers contact details will be in in the article beneath this
interview. But I really, really want to
thank you, Roger, for joining the dots, for asking the
questions, for questioning everything in order to bring
this information to us, which I, I believe is crucial.
So I, I, I make no apologies for this interview being a little
bit longer than normal because I think it's incredibly important.
And if you are a vet, if you are a farmer, if you know anybody
who's a vet or a farmer and you like what the UK column are
doing, we're doing a lot of work on agriculture on one health,
antimicrobial resistance, which is another one.
Maybe we'll come to next time, Roger, with regards to animal
health, then please share our material, spread the word.
We need your help. And Roger, just bless you and
thank you. And it's over to you with our
love and so Many thanks because you've helped me personally with
our animals as well. So if anybody out there has got
an animal that isn't very well or you do need some alternative
care for, please contact Roger. He's your man.
And with that, Roger, it's over to you for your last word.
Thank you. Thank you, Debbie.
Very kind words. Yeah.
And I think I sort of want to finish on a point of hope, to be
honest. You know, sort of what we're
talking about is can be quite heavy and, you know, and maybe
even depressing. And obviously we don't want to
be depressed. We want, we want to feel that
there's hope. But you know, that that time
will come. I am absolutely sure, you know,
but we do need to be aware of what is happening when you do
need to be aware of the agenda so that we we can see what's
behind what's going on as well. So I think, you know, the
important thing is there is light at the end of the tunnel.
I think people are waking up to what's going on and you know,
the farmers are very much required and you know, we are
going to get to a point where we're going to be back looking
more regenerative farming, I'm sure and locally produced food.
And you know, the farmers, I would say hang in there and
everybody else support your farmers and you know, hang on to
that, that positive thing we've got.
Obviously Donald Trump was elected in the States.
He's not there until the 20th. Hopefully we'll survive that
long. But you know, he with Robert
Kennedy doing what he's going to do in the in the United States,
I'm sure some of those waves that he are going, he's going to
start off over there will ripple over here.
And it won't necessarily happen straight away, but it will
happen. So we've just got to sit it out
and, you know, recognize that there are better times ahead and
just hang on to that. And you know, we do need to be
aware and support those who are doing good work and resist those
who are doing evil.