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Hello everyone, this is Diane 
Rathmussen, Makati with UK 

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column. 
I'm really happy to be talking 

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today with author Rosemary 
Jenkinson. 

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I met her a few weeks ago at 
this conference called the 

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Academy sponsored by Ideas 
Mattered, which was a fabulous 

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conference. 
And actually Rosemary talked 

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with one of my favorite sessions
at the conference. 

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So I thought I would bring her 
on to UK column to have a a 

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discussion with her today. 
So thanks for joining us today. 

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Rosemary, Would you like to 
maybe tell us a little bit about

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yourself and and how did you end
up at this conference? 

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Yeah, great to meet you again, 
Diane, so soon after the 

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conference. 
Yes, I ended up there because, 

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well, I'm a writer and I had 
originally been picked up by the

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Battle of Ideas and I did a 
couple of sessions with them 

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about writing and the the 
publishing industry. 

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So that's really they asked me 
because the conference was about

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language specifically, and my 
latest novel Memorizers is about

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language. 
So that's really why I was a 

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perfect fit to speak at the 
conference, because it's my 

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obsession, language and the 
minutiae of it. 

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Yeah, I mine too as well. 
One thing that I don't talk 

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about frequently, at least 
publicly anymore because it was 

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so long ago, is that my my first
degree was in Spanish. 

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And one of the things that I 
learned by learning Spanish, 

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which I started learning in high
school and obviously kept going 

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and never stopped by studying 
Spanish language and literature.

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It actually improved my English 
skills and I actually for a 

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while thought about doing a 
linguistics degree, which I 

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started studying early on as 
well. 

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And various things led me to 
down different paths obviously. 

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So language is one of my first 
loves as well. 

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So this is a great thing to be 
discussing with you and, and 

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obviously the conference as well
for thinking about what, what 

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language means. 
And one of the things that I, I 

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want to bring in early into this
conversation, because it's 

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something that we both have in 
common, is that language has 

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both got us into a lot of 
trouble. 

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You could say that, Diane, but 
we. 

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Love it it's, you know, 
sometimes our loves aren't the 

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best things for us, right when 
it comes to consequences. 

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So do you would you mind sharing
your story? 

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I know it's difficult, but I, I 
think it's for those of us who 

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have been through these 
experiences. 

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I think it's good to get this 
out there as much as possible 

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for people to understand what 
actually happened to it. 

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Yeah, uh, I had written an 
article about Troubles writing 

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and Troubles writers, uh, for a 
very small, well, so a small 

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Northern Irish publication, but 
it's a very esteemed one called 

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Fortnite. 
And umm, so I wrote this and 

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what happened was there was a 
lot of social media kickback 

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about it. 
You know, that I had kind of, 

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umm, been rude about Troubles 
writing and that it was very, 

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very important. 
Whereas I, my view was that I 

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want to, to discuss or I want 
Northern Irish literature to be 

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much more than about the 
Troubles. 

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Anyway, So what happened as a 
consequence of the social media 

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kickback? 
I received an e-mail from, from 

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my then publisher and that was 
Dura Press in Ireland. 

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And they wrote that they did. 
They had supported my right to 

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free speech. 
But the fact was that they 

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thought that it was not going to
help them sell any books. 

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And they said we are rescinding 
our offer to publish you. 

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And I had I was due to have a a 
novel published with them. 

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So that was it gone on on the 
basis, I mean, ridiculously on 

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one tiny article that there was 
only, you know, it was only a 

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few writers who kicked back 
against me anyway. 

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It wasn't like a sort of mass, 
mass sort of, umm, attack on all

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sides. 
So it was a very small thing in 

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which to get my work cancelled. 
And now, you know, so it 

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affected me very deeply. 
I was so shocked because they 

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told me they loved my novel and 
it was like, how can you love 

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something and then just turn 
your back on that for for 

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something which which wasn't 
even a terrible, terrible thing 

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to say. 
It wasn't. 

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It was a perfectly reasonable 
thing to say. 

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It just kind of slightly ruffled
some feathers. 

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And all writers in history, the 
great ones, I think, have 

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sometimes ruffled some feathers.
Oh yeah, absolutely. 

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I would like to put myself in 
that category, yeah. 

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You know Diane, you know how? 
I do. 

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And you know, it's interesting. 
I wasn't counseled by a 

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publisher, at least not yet. 
But I was published widely, 

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obviously as a full professor in
my field. 

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And once the I'll call it the 
witch hunt started coming after 

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me for me speaking out sort of 
in favor of things that I 

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believed in as a professional 
librarian and a librarian 

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academic for over 20 years. 
When I started to not toe the 

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line when it came to things like
gender ideology. 

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And when it came to things like,
you know, what it was that I 

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believed we should be holding on
to, which is, you know, 

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professional standards. 
And they started to cancel me. 

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I, I know personally like 
because it, it changed the 

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entire course of my life, which 
I'm now thankful that I have 

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this wonderful platform with UK 
column. 

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But I just want to say for those
of us who have been through 

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this, it's a very painful 
process and you've ended up 

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losing a lot. 
But you also, I guess if you 

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want to put a positive spin on 
it, you also learn and grow from

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it as well. 
Absolutely, we wouldn't have met

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each other had this not 
happened. 

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And and this is the things you 
meet the better people who stand

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up for your rights to talk 
Diane. 

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So I I'm sure you've met so many
great people because of this. 

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Yeah, oh, absolutely. 
People I never would have met 

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before and, and, and frankly, 
nobody from my former life even 

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talks to me anymore. 
And for my former professional 

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life, so. 
But I now have a whole new 

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network of people and it keeps 
growing and it's, and it's and 

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it's great. 
So it's interesting to hear 

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about the publisher deciding to 
cancel you because it was 

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actually something when I was 
looking for a publisher because 

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I'm, I currently have a contract
to write a book on. 

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I'm basically driven by what 
happened to me around ideology 

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driving libraries and how that 
is impacting our access to 

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knowledge and information and 
the destruction that is 

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happening within libraries 
because because of this 

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ideology, what they're and you 
should be concerned about this 

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as well as an author, obviously,
that what they're doing is 

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removing things in grown up 
libraries and adult libraries 

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and university libraries where 
they think it's not inclusive, 

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you know, using that sort of 
coded language, right? 

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Because we know that in this 
case it's an inversion, that 

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inclusion is actually exclusion.
And this case, we're excluding 

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people that are, you know, from 
the history of this country and 

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your country and everything 
else, because we're, we're 

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trying to be inclusive to the 
history and, and think of people

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from other countries, which I 
have no problem with adding and,

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and expanding collections as 
much as possible, but don't 

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destroy the, the, the origins of
this country that built this 

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great university system here 
that we have in the UK. 

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But that's one of the things I'm
speaking out about. 

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And, and people maybe are not 
aware that this is happening. 

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So what I would like to maybe 
hear from you about a bit is, 

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you know, how well, first of 
all, I'm, I'm sure you have 

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feelings about that and opinions
on that. 

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And, and I think what we need to
do is maybe start to look at 

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this problem together for those 
of us who are writers and who 

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want to respect our right to 
free speech and, and to share 

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our ideas. 
I mean what's your thought on 

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this as a a well known published
author that I highly respect? 

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But well, clearly any, any 
removal of books because of 

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content, I'm completely against,
you know, from libraries. 

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Libraries are the place of that.
We trust that we can get fined 

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on everything and every kind of 
taboo must be covered in 

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libraries. 
Umm, so I, I have no 

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restrictions on literary fiction
or anything or even. 

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Yeah, or fact. 
There should be no restrictions 

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as far as I'm concerned. 
Umm, so I am. 

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Yeah. 
I'm an absolutist with you 

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there, Diane. 
And I think, yeah, the whole 

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thing about yeah, nowadays we're
just so there's so many taboos 

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that we're not allowed to talk 
about and it's ridiculous. 

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And the whole thing about even 
trigger, even books that are lie

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are allowed to be published, 
have to have warnings. 

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Now the trigger warnings and it,
it's an insane. 

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Where does it end? 
Everything is potentially 

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offensive to one person. 
I there's just no end to it. 

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And that's why we have to stop 
it. 

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Yeah, and I, I, I just, I'll 
hold your book up here. 

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It's just so that people can, Oh
yeah, recover. 

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I, I will make sure that there 
is a link to it in the write up 

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for the interview so people can,
can, can buy it. 

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And I believe this is one of 
the, the funniest things I saw 

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when I started to read your book
was that it starts with a 

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government warning, 
interestingly, and I'll just 

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read it out because I think it 
deserves it. 

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But the following book comes 
with a Class A mental health 

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warning. 
It may propagate deleterious 

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desires for individualism within
the reader. 

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Can't have that anymore. 
It may lead to disaffection 

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within society. 
Whosoever circulates this book 

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with a view to undermining 
government authority will be 

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subject to state sanctions. 
Very scary, Rosemary. 

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It's, it's actually what's 
happening. 

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So it's a total reflection of 
society right now. 

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And those whole trigger warning.
So that was my fictional trigger

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warning, really, and warning 
against being in a library and 

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everything. 
I mean, libraries in my book is,

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as you know, have all been burnt
down. 

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And so, you know, this is where 
we're heading. 

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And that's the danger. 
The dictator in my book says 

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unity through language. 
So they're trying to control 

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everything. 
And yeah, clearly books are the 

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most dangerous things for 
dictatorships. 

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Oh yeah. 
Well, and, and the, the, the 

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hypocrisy that's that I've been 
talking about in my reporting 

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and talks I've been doing around
the country myself, is that the 

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other side of it that's 
happening is, and you know, I 

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know that you are, this is a 
dystopian novel. 

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And I, I've, I've interested 
myself in dystopian fiction and,

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and films and, and books as 
well. 

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The other side of it though, 
which is I always refer back to 

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the scene from Brave New World 
where, you know, this director 

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talked to the children about the
unbelievable fact that children 

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in, in the have maybe wouldn't 
even have relations until they 

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were older than 20 years old and
thought it was unbelievable. 

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And we see this now that the 
specialization of children for 

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something that I cover is that 
what's happening is that the 

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libraries are using this 
argument against censorship to 

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put sexual content in front of 
children, which I've been 

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covering extensively. 
But when it comes to people who 

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are, say, over 18 over whatever,
in my opinion, they can read 

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anything they want to. 
Like, I have no restrictions 

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there. 
But they're inverting that once 

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again to say, well, it's 
censorship if we don't put sex 

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manuals in front of children. 
And this is the thing that I've 

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been speaking about, which will 
also be in my book. 

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So I think that what we're 
seeing is an inversion of 

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language. 
And we're also seeing what 

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whatever is behind this. 
And I think there's a lot behind

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this, a lot of big agenda items 
behind this. 

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But we're seeing that twisting, 
twisting it around and, and 

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putting children in danger and 
exposing to things that they 

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shouldn't be seeing. 
So we're seeing this very 

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strange twisting around. 
It's really affecting a lot of 

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things right now. 
I'm not. 

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I'm not sure if you're aware 
that this has been happening. 

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I, I never thought of it in 
terms of that inverse. 

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And it's like a reverse 
infantilization of adults. 

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And in a way it's to control us,
as you say, in order that they 

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can push that agenda on the 
children. 

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So if we are controlled, 
therefore they can give whatever

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ideology they want to children 
or sexualization because we're 

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so controlled ourselves. 
So I guess, I guess that's 

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what's happening. 
Yeah. 

227
00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:01,840
And, and, and what I've heard is
because I'm, I'm working 

228
00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:04,680
actively with some, some parent 
groups and so on that are 

229
00:13:04,680 --> 00:13:06,440
concerned about what's being 
placed in front of their 

230
00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:08,600
children. 
That in some cases when they go 

231
00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:11,600
to the school or to the library 
and complain about what's being 

232
00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:15,640
put into the curriculum or being
put into the library, is that 

233
00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:18,360
the parents themselves get 
cancelled by the school or by 

234
00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:20,440
staff at the school for speaking
out for their children. 

235
00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:25,560
Oh, yeah. 
OK, so the authoritarianism is, 

236
00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:28,520
is totally, yeah, rife in 
schools now. 

237
00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:31,000
That's. 
I didn't know that. 

238
00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:35,160
Yeah, and and you know what's 
what's going on with our our 

239
00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:38,840
lovely Bridget Phillipson, the 
education secretary who was 

240
00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:43,640
mandating a national curriculum.
And we, we already, we've seen 

241
00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:48,600
this going on for some time now 
for the past few years of not 

242
00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:50,040
only libraries, but in 
education. 

243
00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:53,880
So saying that children have to 
learn that because according to 

244
00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:57,360
the UN and the World Health 
Organization and the WEF that 

245
00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:00,360
we've been uncovering and some 
of our authors that are writing 

246
00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:03,720
for at the UK column is that 
because of things like the UN 

247
00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:05,320
Convention of the Rights of the 
Children. 

248
00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:08,120
And because, and they're, 
they're basically saying, well, 

249
00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:11,080
we're doing this because of the 
fact that, you know, children 

250
00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:15,800
are sexual beings from birth and
therefore we, we can put 

251
00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:17,640
anything in front of them at any
age. 

252
00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:19,680
And we should be because they're
Born This Way. 

253
00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:23,200
So again, but then adults can't 
read what they want because they

254
00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:26,480
need a trigger warning to read 
a, a novel because it might hurt

255
00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:28,880
their feelings. 
So it's, it's complete. 

256
00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:30,800
Everything is completely twisted
around. 

257
00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:33,520
Yeah, that's ironical 
completely. 

258
00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:39,080
And yeah, as you say, yeah, it 
seems completely twisted. 

259
00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:43,280
And yeah, I didn't actually know
that that children are regarded 

260
00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:49,920
sexual beings from age zero. 
I think we develop our sort of 

261
00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:54,000
sexuality and there is sexual 
feelings in us all, but that 

262
00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:57,520
develops and is often taught. 
I mean that's the whole thing. 

263
00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:01,800
I mean, I think sex is so much 
taught and and that's what the 

264
00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:05,040
dangerous thing is, I think. 
Yeah, absolutely. 

265
00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:07,200
And so, but if we're teaching 
children, you know, because some

266
00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:10,560
of these things are being put 
into primary schools, which 

267
00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:13,720
means, you know, that and and, 
and also in the into picture 

268
00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:16,080
books that are for children who 
aren't even in school yet. 

269
00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:21,120
So a lot of this around the LGBT
agenda being placed in front of 

270
00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:24,240
children in picture books. 
So there's books like granddad's

271
00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:27,720
prides, a lot of famous books 
I've talked about books where 

272
00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:29,880
you can even change your species
if you want to. 

273
00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:33,480
You know that there's, you can 
now, now that you can, there's a

274
00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:36,200
book called the the boy who 
wanted to be a deer, the picture

275
00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:38,120
book, you can get it for free on
Amazon. 

276
00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:42,320
And, and it says the boy decided
that he would be so much happier

277
00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:44,520
if he were a deer. 
And so his family let him change

278
00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:46,960
his species. 
And now he has antlers and he's 

279
00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:49,280
so happy and his family loves 
him. 

280
00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:52,440
So this is how we see the 
pushing agenda even to, you 

281
00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:55,880
know, 2 year olds and. 
Yeah, yeah. 

282
00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:59,640
It's the whole concept of 
physical change, yeah, that we 

283
00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:03,560
can physically be anything we 
that we want, which is quite a 

284
00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:07,280
sort of quite a leap of 
imagination. 

285
00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:12,480
Yeah, but now it's it's in, it's
on paper and words. 

286
00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:16,160
So, you know it's OK, but then 
when we see the trigger warnings

287
00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:20,000
that are out there for the rest 
of the world, for those of us 

288
00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:22,640
who should be old enough to make
decisions for ourselves about 

289
00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:25,400
what we read. 
It's almost like Diana. 

290
00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:30,240
It's almost like a a kind of 
magical realism for children, 

291
00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:34,640
you know, in a way that, yeah, 
you are magic, you can change. 

292
00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:38,040
So it's really strange. 
It's very strange. 

293
00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:39,200
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

294
00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:41,160
But. 
So, So what let you down? 

295
00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:45,880
This, this path of becoming a 
writer, What, what, what was it 

296
00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:50,400
that decided to that that made 
you to speak to decide? 

297
00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:54,000
I'm getting writes dystopian 
satirical novels, like how did 

298
00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:57,000
you get to the point before the 
cancellation, like when you were

299
00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:59,960
writing and into sort of more 
proper formats that were 

300
00:16:59,960 --> 00:17:04,200
approved by the authoritarians? 
I like that, yeah. 

301
00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:08,599
I don't think my works ever 
really been entirely approved, 

302
00:17:08,599 --> 00:17:12,119
but yes, it was tolerated. 
And also, yeah, they, they 

303
00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:13,960
appreciate skill in writing, I 
think. 

304
00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:17,440
But I suppose my ideas have 
always been shaped by the world 

305
00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:19,480
around me and the politics that 
are happening. 

306
00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:23,560
And umm, yeah. 
I'd always wanted to write about

307
00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:27,359
a dystopian world like 1984 
because I did believe that we 

308
00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:30,280
were kind of moving towards 
that. 

309
00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:32,320
But. 
But originally I got into 

310
00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:36,120
writing, obviously for love of 
language, just simply that as we

311
00:17:36,120 --> 00:17:39,280
were talking about, I mean, 
there's nothing more beautiful 

312
00:17:39,280 --> 00:17:41,360
than being able to express what 
you feel. 

313
00:17:41,360 --> 00:17:46,680
And that kind of satisfaction 
and, yeah, thrill of being able 

314
00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:50,520
to express yourself on page is, 
is a beautiful thing. 

315
00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:53,400
Yeah. 
It's it's I think it's difficult

316
00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:58,760
to it considering, you know, as 
the the summary in your back to 

317
00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:01,520
the book says, the West current 
involved in free speech and that

318
00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:03,600
your truth is the wrong kind of 
truth, right. 

319
00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:08,280
And that we see this in 1984. 
We see this in a lot of a lot of

320
00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:13,040
different the Dopian story 
storylines and novels where 

321
00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:17,040
libraries appear frequently, and
this is actually something I'm 

322
00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:19,640
starting to do some research on 
because it's something I've been

323
00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:22,800
recently aware of the more I 
think about it. 

324
00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:26,200
There's a dystopian film called 
Rollerball. 

325
00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:28,560
Have you heard of this one from?
It's it's. 

326
00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:32,840
It's, it's from the 70s, I 
believe, and I won't get into 

327
00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:35,920
this, the plot of the film, but 
basically the, the main 

328
00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:40,120
character at some point has 
reason to go visit a library and

329
00:18:40,120 --> 00:18:44,440
it's all been digitized and 
somehow something happened. 

330
00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:47,560
There was a glitch and the 13th 
century had been deleted. 

331
00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:53,040
So, so that's the reality of 
digitization. 

332
00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:55,880
And I, I was recently, just a 
few days ago at a freedom 

333
00:18:55,880 --> 00:18:59,000
festival and I was asked to 
speak on the importance of 

334
00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:02,960
physical versus print of sorry, 
physical versus digital 

335
00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:05,120
material. 
And this is one of the reasons 

336
00:19:05,120 --> 00:19:06,560
why the physical is so 
important. 

337
00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:10,040
That's why it's so great to have
your book here physically, 

338
00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:12,000
because I know that it won't go 
away, right? 

339
00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:15,200
That they won't go in and change
it because that's something else

340
00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:17,920
that's been happening with all 
of the digital content that's 

341
00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:22,720
out in the world. 
Publishers, vendors can go in 

342
00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:25,440
and either remove content they 
can change. 

343
00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:27,800
They can change it if somebody 
complaints about it. 

344
00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:30,800
We saw that with Roald Dahl, who
the language in Charlie and the 

345
00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:33,760
Chocolate Factory was changed 
because it was I think there was

346
00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:37,600
a boy that the word was fat 
describing the fat kid, as you 

347
00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:40,240
know, And then we can't say that
anymore. 

348
00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:43,640
So changing language of existing
novels. 

349
00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:47,640
But if it's physically in print,
nobody can take it away the way 

350
00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:49,880
they can digitally. 
And we we're seeing this 

351
00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:51,880
constantly with web pages 
disappearing. 

352
00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:55,640
And and so it's really important
to preserve everything that you 

353
00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:57,880
can. 
You put people can see behind 

354
00:19:57,880 --> 00:19:59,440
me. 
This is only a small part of my 

355
00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:01,240
book collection. 
I have three more shelves in 

356
00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:04,680
another room. 
So but whatever I have hopefully

357
00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:09,200
will survive. 
Whatever text it has on it, 

358
00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:11,920
because they, I think it's just 
so important for us to have lots

359
00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:14,800
of copies everywhere because 
that's the only way that we can 

360
00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:17,520
preserve knowledge. 
And, and I think that's 

361
00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:20,600
particularly true with things 
that for whatever reason, at 

362
00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:23,000
some point in the future become 
problematic. 

363
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,200
I think that's the word they use
for. 

364
00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:27,480
So are, are, are you the same? 
Do you? 

365
00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:30,000
Do you have this love of print 
that you just want to curl up 

366
00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:31,960
with a cup of tea and A and a 
couch? 

367
00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:37,080
Completely, Diane, yeah, I, I, I
am for you can't see any 

368
00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:38,720
bookcases. 
So they're all actually 

369
00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:41,600
downstairs. 
They have like a huge one right 

370
00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:43,080
across the living room and 
everything. 

371
00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:45,720
So. 
But yeah, of course, the the 

372
00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:49,720
most important because you can 
easily dip into it. 

373
00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:53,160
It's so much easier than looking
up things digitally. 

374
00:20:53,360 --> 00:20:56,760
It's you can refer between 
books. 

375
00:20:56,760 --> 00:21:00,680
Everything is cross reference. 
I mean, the thing about also the

376
00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:05,680
memorizers really is about that 
she really goes on a mission to 

377
00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:09,000
find a physical book. 
And this is really. 

378
00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:11,640
That's why I'm kind of yeah. 
Because I. 

379
00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:15,880
Know now that if you notice in 
the novel, there's digital 

380
00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:18,360
archives that keep being 
changed. 

381
00:21:18,360 --> 00:21:22,240
So all this information is 
constantly being changed, but 

382
00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:26,160
the one thing that can tell the 
truth about the past, it's about

383
00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:28,800
the Northern Ireland peace 
process specifically. 

384
00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:33,240
She goes in to look for this 
book and finds, finds books on 

385
00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:34,680
this. 
So, yeah. 

386
00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:37,640
So that's how important it is. 
It is. 

387
00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:41,000
You cannot change what has been 
published already. 

388
00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:42,560
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

389
00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:45,760
And that was actually something 
that I, I learned in when I did 

390
00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:49,960
my PhD, which was on 
photojournalism, looking at the 

391
00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:54,760
how at this time, you know, this
was 20 years ago, but they were,

392
00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:57,560
that was only worth trying to 
convert to digital photography. 

393
00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:01,040
And so the news photographers 
that I, that I interviewed were 

394
00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:06,120
struggling with as well. 
Because when something is, you 

395
00:22:06,120 --> 00:22:09,600
know, sitting in a shoe box in 
your, in your home, like they 

396
00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:11,520
had, you know, all of these 
photos that especially the 

397
00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:15,600
freelancers that had shoe boxes 
or the ones that work for major 

398
00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:18,280
newspapers that had large photo 
libraries where everything is on

399
00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:20,960
the shelves. 
And then you know that if even 

400
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:23,400
if you need to go back to get 
something historically, because 

401
00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:26,320
something in the news happens, 
you can go and find it and it's 

402
00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:29,640
on the shelf where it's in the 
shoe box and, and recirculate it

403
00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:32,760
if you need to. 
But what happens with the 

404
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:35,760
digital photograph is that 
they're harder to find, right? 

405
00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:39,640
So if you don't have the 
appropriate words, the language 

406
00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:43,000
once again to search for those 
photographs that are associated 

407
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,040
with it so that, you know, you 
covered this rally on this day 

408
00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:47,680
and and these people were 
present. 

409
00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:51,680
And then if you need to bring 
that book back later, you know, 

410
00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:53,320
how do you do that? 
If the words haven't been 

411
00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:55,640
assigned to the photos, there's 
no way to find them again. 

412
00:22:56,040 --> 00:23:00,040
The problem is that photography 
and language are like any other 

413
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:02,160
medium. 
There are are different 

414
00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:04,560
languages and there's 
translation that needs to occur,

415
00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:07,040
right? 
So the language has to be 

416
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:10,040
precise that it can be found 
again. 

417
00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:12,520
But then again, we all use 
different words to describe 

418
00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:15,080
things that are not words, if 
that makes any sense. 

419
00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:17,320
Yeah. 
We do, we do. 

420
00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:20,920
And, and quotes can be misquoted
over the years and everything. 

421
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:23,640
And, and the thing that mean 
just the basic thing about 

422
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:28,520
digital is it can be deleted. 
Whereas books can exist in 

423
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:32,080
libraries for centuries. 
And that's a completely 

424
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:34,160
different reality. 
Really. 

425
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:35,760
Yeah. 
Yeah, it is. 

426
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:39,200
And with the, the library books,
you know, even if you have, 

427
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:43,160
let's say you have a, a book 
like a printed book, but it gets

428
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:45,760
converted digitally, or if it's 
what we call born digital, which

429
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:50,080
is published digitally, you can 
still search the word. 

430
00:23:50,360 --> 00:23:52,880
So if you know a few words that 
are in the book and you can 

431
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:57,400
search the text and things like,
you know, the mainstream search 

432
00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:01,000
engines like Google are pretty 
good at searching text and they 

433
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:04,680
can match word for word. 
But how do you match word for 

434
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:07,240
image, right? 
You can't search an image the 

435
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:08,920
same way you can use a word to 
search. 

436
00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:13,200
And so then you get into a whole
different issue of textual 

437
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:17,240
language versus visual language,
which is also something that's 

438
00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:20,360
really fascinating to me. 
Like, you know, if you look at 

439
00:24:20,360 --> 00:24:24,160
the cover of your book, this 
tells a whole story in itself. 

440
00:24:24,360 --> 00:24:28,640
Just looking at the photo. 
The the was this a painting? 

441
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,440
Was this a photograph? 
What was what was that? 

442
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:35,000
And then also the back cover as 
well, which is also very 

443
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,000
interesting. 
So what? 

444
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:39,880
What stories were you trying to 
tell with those visuals? 

445
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:45,560
Yeah, it was interesting because
it was an AI image and obviously

446
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:48,960
I was looking. 
There was a futuristic novel and

447
00:24:49,360 --> 00:24:54,880
it was something that I put in 
to ChatGPT and this was, and a 

448
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:56,520
friend did the one in the back 
cover. 

449
00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:59,520
But The thing is about that, 
yeah, it was. 

450
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:04,320
I had the idea that the whole 
image of the novel was, was that

451
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:07,360
kind of man without fused with a
woman. 

452
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:12,360
I mean that the the character is
really very much, she lives in a

453
00:25:12,360 --> 00:25:16,600
very masculine world in a way 
that that there is war all the 

454
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,600
time and she's out at the front 
line with soldiers. 

455
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:24,560
So it's she lives in that and 
also she meets the soldiers. 

456
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:28,040
So it's very much the fusion of 
their relationship, but also 

457
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:31,600
it's the image of the grand 
commander. 

458
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:36,760
And the grand commander wants to
be all things to all people so 

459
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:39,560
that there is no need to ever 
replace them. 

460
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:44,320
So they want to convey, even 
though he's a man, he's a man in

461
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:50,440
his 50s, he wants to convey this
image of two sexes and youth and

462
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,680
vitality. 
And so that was really an idea 

463
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:56,400
of that. 
But it's up on the like the Big 

464
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:58,720
Brother in 1984. 
It's up on the exactly. 

465
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:01,760
Yeah, exactly. 
But I was thinking myself. 

466
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:05,560
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 
So it is interesting to me 

467
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:09,680
because, you know, it's kind of 
like, you know, to me, this 

468
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:13,080
looks like female on one side, 
male on the other side, right. 

469
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,920
And, and, and so that's telling,
you know, there's sort of all 

470
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:21,840
the blending of identities and 
this is kind of what we're 

471
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:23,920
seeing now as well. 
And, and I don't even know if 

472
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:26,080
you intended this, but that's 
what I got out of part of this. 

473
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:31,160
It's sort of the, the, the lack 
of individualism, right? 

474
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:32,720
So we're all sort of blending 
together. 

475
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:37,120
We're all supposed to be kind of
the, the theme entity that 

476
00:26:37,120 --> 00:26:39,200
believes the same things and 
thinks the same things that we 

477
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:41,960
can't think for ourselves. 
And maybe I'm reading far too 

478
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,000
much. 
That's what I got out of it, 

479
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,080
actually. 
Right. 

480
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:49,840
You know, I guess we all see 
different things when we read 

481
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:51,440
that. 
I guess that's kind of part of, 

482
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:55,840
of experiencing in any 
particularly good, well written 

483
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:59,400
literary piece of work is that 
we all see different things in 

484
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:00,840
it. 
But that's what I thought was 

485
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:07,760
kind of this, the way the 
individualism sort of leaves the

486
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:10,040
room, right. 
And, and now we're just kind of 

487
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:12,120
doing what we're told. 
And that's kind of how we're 

488
00:27:12,120 --> 00:27:14,640
expected to live right now. 
And that goes into the the 

489
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:17,040
cancellations and the freedom of
speech is that you're not, 

490
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:20,640
you're not acting with the, the 
oneness that they're expecting 

491
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:26,120
us to act with. 
And yeah, and I, you know, I, I 

492
00:27:26,120 --> 00:27:27,840
don't know how we kept, this is 
not something that we've 

493
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:30,200
discussed previously, but I 
believe this is something that 

494
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:33,640
happened in 2020 when they all 
locked us up. 

495
00:27:34,120 --> 00:27:39,680
And I think this was part of the
plan at, in 2020, you know, sort

496
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:43,920
of this technocracy took over. 
If you think about it, we, we 

497
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:47,440
lost our ability to communicate.
We lost our ability to just go 

498
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:48,920
for coffee. 
We lost our ability. 

499
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:52,040
Everything was supposed to be 
done, you know, in the on the 

500
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:55,840
screen if you did anything. 
And, and that cut off our 

501
00:27:55,840 --> 00:28:00,560
ability to communicate, our 
ability to share ideas, to even 

502
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:02,280
see our families, all those 
things. 

503
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:05,920
And, and I think, I don't think 
we've quite recovered from that.

504
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:09,160
And it was really been when I 
started to see this, this whole 

505
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:13,920
thing sort of taking over this 
oneness of, well, we no longer 

506
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:18,200
exist as individual stay at 
home, do as you're told, do 

507
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:20,360
everything online, which 
wouldn't have been possible 20 

508
00:28:20,360 --> 00:28:21,560
years before that. 
So you didn't have the 

509
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:25,320
infrastructure in place that I 
think this has all been part of 

510
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:27,480
it. 
And people seem to have lost 

511
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:32,040
their ability in some cases or 
feel they no longer have the 

512
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:35,520
ability to, to speak up. 
And I, and I really think in the

513
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:38,920
last five years this has been 
something that has happened, is 

514
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:41,520
that we are now just supposed to
stay quiet. 

515
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:46,560
And I don't know if that was 
your experience of the 2020 era,

516
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,120
but that's one of the things 
that I saw happening. 

517
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,640
Definitely, that's what I was 
saying that I think it is. 

518
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:58,480
I call it the langdemic instead 
of the pandemic because our 

519
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:02,160
language was policed from much 
more than ever before. 

520
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,600
At that point. 
They realized the authoritarian 

521
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:08,480
governments realized that they 
could completely control us and 

522
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:10,960
that we wouldn't come out of our
houses. 

523
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:13,840
Uh, so is it? 
It was a shocking reality to 

524
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:17,920
realize how quiescent and 
submissive we are to the state. 

525
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:23,600
And that is still following now.
Yeah, our language was 

526
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,240
controlled from then. 
So I feel I I do feel that. 

527
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,160
And I also feel that the 
digital, exactly as you say, 

528
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:31,640
that was the point that they 
realized that they could really 

529
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:34,280
control us digitally. 
Yeah. 

530
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:37,400
Yeah, and, and, and the 
language, you know, like there 

531
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,960
was a meme I shared a few days 
ago on on Facebook with sort of 

532
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:44,160
like they were talking to a 
group of Amish people in this 

533
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:45,760
little cartoon. 
And it said, are you worried 

534
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:47,680
about climate change? 
And they said no because we 

535
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:54,040
don't have TV. 
Yeah, they're. 

536
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:57,000
One of the fews. 
Few aren't controlled. 

537
00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:00,320
Yeah, they're not. 
Told that they're supposed to be

538
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:04,160
controlled, but you know, it's, 
it is interesting though, 

539
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,160
because the language was one of 
the things that I noticed in 

540
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,560
2020 was, you know, the if you 
think about the term social 

541
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:14,360
distancing, the the word social 
does not imply we have to stay 

542
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:16,720
away from each other because we 
might kill each other with a 

543
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:20,400
so-called deadly virus, right? 
It's social. 

544
00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:23,440
It's we're not supposed to 
socialize. 

545
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:25,600
And so that that message was 
everywhere. 

546
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:29,400
I read a lot about the I forget 
where this comes from. 

547
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,520
You might know, using things in 
groups of three. 

548
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:35,200
I think it was Doctor Vernon 
Coleman that wrote about this 

549
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:39,320
originally, like the the hand 
space, space kinds of things 

550
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,800
that they were repeating over 
and over again, everything in 

551
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:45,960
trees that that somehow that is 
something that sticks in our 

552
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:48,280
minds. 
So we think hands based and all 

553
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:52,320
of those little, you know, save 
the NHS, protect all of these 

554
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:54,440
things that were, I can't think 
of them now, but they were sort 

555
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:59,120
of all over, not only on TV and 
on the Internet, but even if you

556
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:01,680
were allowed to go into a 
grocery store and you would see 

557
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:05,120
them all over Tesco and wherever
you manage to get out to at the 

558
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:08,240
time. 
And so that language was really 

559
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:13,160
important, as well as the 
behavioral psychology that Brian

560
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:17,480
Garish at UK column was one of 
the ones who uncovered this idea

561
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:22,320
of behavior modification through
increasing the fear, increasing 

562
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:25,400
the threat, the personal threat 
that was meant to be perceived 

563
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:29,240
by the public to control us, to 
make us stay home and and do 

564
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:31,480
these things. 
But that's all that all comes 

565
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:33,960
down to language, doesn't it? 
Yeah, and. 

566
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,000
I didn't think of that thing 
about 3. 

567
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:39,920
So everything is 3, stop the 
boats, adult female, human, 

568
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:42,200
everything is. 
And I didn't actually think of 

569
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:44,640
that before. 
And I totally agree that there 

570
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,480
was. 
I remember I went about the 

571
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:51,720
climate of fear. 
I went to the shop and I was in 

572
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:53,360
the shop. 
There's nobody else there. 

573
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:57,120
The radio was on. 
It was like, get home now the 

574
00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:00,600
radio presenter was saying, and 
I thought it was in the War of 

575
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,400
the Worlds. 
And and this was, it was like 

576
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:05,880
fiction. 
It wasn't a real world at all. 

577
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:10,760
To be, to be under that threat 
that I was a dangerous person, 

578
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:13,040
you know, suddenly by being out 
there. 

579
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,680
And it was like, I'm just doing 
my shopping. 

580
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:19,200
Yeah, I'm the ultimate criminal 
here. 

581
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:24,200
Well, and then, you know, 
thinking about the language of 

582
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:27,560
even the the thimbles, right. 
So when we think about symbols 

583
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,080
as language, that all of the 
arrows, the one way arrows on 

584
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:32,720
the floors, remember those where
you know you can. 

585
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:36,360
Get the. 
Feet, the stand here, the circle

586
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:37,920
around it. 
You know, that's all. 

587
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:40,880
That's still all the symbols, 
but it's still language of like,

588
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:44,400
stand here, walk this way, don't
go that way down the ketchup 

589
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:45,840
aisle. 
You know what it is. 

590
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:49,640
And so somehow this was supposed
to save us, right? 

591
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:54,480
You know, even even the language
of, of wearing a mask, right, is

592
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:56,320
still, it's a symbol of fear, 
right? 

593
00:32:56,320 --> 00:33:00,240
So even the, the symbol of, you 
know, first of all, you're 

594
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,200
removing your individuality by 
hiding your face. 

595
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:07,040
But also if you can't. 
So we've lost our individuality.

596
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:09,040
We're also looking at each 
other, thinking, oh, it's really

597
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:11,720
terrifying to breathe. 
Can't even breathe anymore 

598
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:14,320
safely because we're going to 
die of a virus, right? 

599
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:17,080
That all of these things all 
tied together. 

600
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:20,800
It was really funny. 
I owned one cloth mask that I 

601
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:22,400
only wore when I was really 
forced to. 

602
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,160
Eventually I got one of those 
lanyards that were like, said 

603
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:27,640
you had an exemption and I would
wear those just so people would 

604
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:31,160
leave me alone. 
But I had one cloth mask which 

605
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:34,480
had its own bit of language on 
it which it said enjoy the 

606
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:37,440
silence. 
Great. 

607
00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:42,200
I love some of those sort of 
like, yeah, thematic masks and 

608
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:45,280
looking like the Joker mask and 
things like that. 

609
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:47,320
There was a lot of comedy 
actually with that. 

610
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:48,640
Yeah. 
But. 

611
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,440
But it was still, I mean, it's 
still completely, I suppose 

612
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:55,040
people personalize and 
individualize their masks, but 

613
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:58,560
it's still, it's still 
completely dehumanizing no 

614
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:02,560
matter what you do. 
Yeah, yeah, it was a crazy time.

615
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:07,320
And umm, also I, I want to say 
that out of that time, I think 

616
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:11,760
that wars began. 
Certainly Putin saw that. 

617
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,560
Probably there wasn't as much 
attention on him. 

618
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:18,320
Everyone had gone inwards. 
There was no out of work, you 

619
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:20,000
know, because every country was 
the same. 

620
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:23,440
There was much happening. 
This was a global pandemic. 

621
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:27,280
Nothing was happening that we 
were looking at Russia and the 

622
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:29,800
build up. 
He managed to make the build up 

623
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:33,320
on the border without a lot of 
international attention. 

624
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:36,120
Of course, that was 2022, but 
there was still the hangover 

625
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:39,960
from the pandemic that we had 
become more insular. 

626
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:45,239
I feel so, umm, so that I, I 
think, yeah, so I think 

627
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:49,639
everything, yeah, things could 
happen wouldn't have happened 

628
00:34:49,639 --> 00:34:52,840
normally but for the pandemic. 
Politically, it wouldn't have 

629
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:54,199
happened, right. 
And. 

630
00:34:54,199 --> 00:34:57,520
And, and things needed to be in 
place before that could happen. 

631
00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:00,320
So we can see that this was 
planned, that we had the 

632
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:05,000
delivery services and the, you 
know, order your food, order 

633
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:08,360
your Amazon stuff, whatever, 
whatever you want to buy. 

634
00:35:08,720 --> 00:35:13,880
But if you think about it, even 
prior, even in 2010, we we 

635
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:17,280
didn't have that level of 
technology for any of this to be

636
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:19,640
able to happen to, to tell 
everyone to do absolutely 

637
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:21,920
everything sitting at home on 
their laptop. 

638
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:24,720
It just, it just would not have 
been possible. 

639
00:35:24,720 --> 00:35:27,840
But funnily enough, the people 
who did have to go out to work 

640
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:31,800
so that the Amazon drivers or 
the the Tesco workers or whoever

641
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:34,800
was that, you know, and part of 
the food supply chain for, for 

642
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,200
whatever reason, appeared not to
have dropped dead. 

643
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:44,400
And so, yeah, that was a sign. 
Yeah. 

644
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:50,160
So I feel like it was, in a way,
an attack on the middle class. 

645
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:56,280
So those of us who do have jobs,
we can work at a computer may or

646
00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:59,760
may not need to go to an office 
once we have the technology to 

647
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:03,400
be able to communicate remotely 
with each other, as we're doing 

648
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:07,600
right now, unfortunately. 
But, you know, this would not 

649
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:09,920
have been possible for people. 
So when I talked to 

650
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:13,680
tradespeople, for example, that 
we're still out, you know, 

651
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:17,840
fixing people's electricity or 
making sure the plumbing works, 

652
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:21,640
a lot of them that I've talked 
to did not buy into it because 

653
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:23,920
they were still out there in the
world, right. 

654
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:28,520
So they, they maybe did not have
the ability, well, couldn't do 

655
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:31,120
their job if they stayed at home
until they were considered key 

656
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:34,000
or essential workers. 
But they were they were they 

657
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:37,160
also just anecdotally, I don't 
have any statistics for this 

658
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:43,560
appear to be 1 to refuse the 
vaccinations because they were 

659
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:46,240
out saying, well, nothing's 
happened to me for the past year

660
00:36:46,240 --> 00:36:48,600
I've got, but now I'm fine. 
Why should I put something into 

661
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:50,840
my body? 
And a lot of them actually were 

662
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:55,000
that I've talked to anyway were 
once he refused to get the 

663
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:58,200
vaccination, whereas the middle 
class who were sitting at home 

664
00:36:58,240 --> 00:37:01,600
getting afraid to leave the 
house for getting these messages

665
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:04,080
that we're talking about. 
What's the language saying, oh, 

666
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:05,720
I better get vaccinated or I'm 
going to die. 

667
00:37:05,720 --> 00:37:08,920
You know, even though they were,
you know, we were still locked 

668
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:12,480
up for a while after after the 
the vaccination program was in 

669
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:14,880
place, which should have told 
somebody something, but it 

670
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:19,040
didn't for some people. 
So I think it's that those media

671
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:23,680
messages are are so influential 
in people's decisions, obviously

672
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:26,120
to do whatever they think 
they're supposed to do to save 

673
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:28,200
their grannies or whatever they 
thought it was going to do for 

674
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:29,480
them. 
Yeah. 

675
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:32,200
And I, I yeah, I think it was a 
middle class, as you say, the 

676
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:35,640
working class were out serving, 
really serving the middle 

677
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:39,120
classes in that kind of way. 
Ridiculous. 

678
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:42,360
But they were having. 
I was jealous because as a 

679
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:44,440
writer, yeah, I couldn't get out
at all. 

680
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:47,320
All the theaters were close. 
It was a disaster for anybody 

681
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:50,400
who is sort of in that artistic 
world worlds. 

682
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:54,520
So yeah, yeah. 
The things that the. 

683
00:37:55,160 --> 00:38:00,240
Things that happened to the any,
any, any creative spaces, you 

684
00:38:00,240 --> 00:38:05,000
know, the music concerts, book 
talks, you know, anything that 

685
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:07,800
you, that you would want to do 
in, in the creative world. 

686
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:11,400
It was all, it was all gone. 
I, you know, I was, I was living

687
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:14,800
in Edinburgh sort of towards the
end of that time period and in 

688
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:16,920
Glasgow. 
And so Denver Festival being 

689
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,320
such a major event in the 
calendar for so many people, and

690
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:26,560
that just going away was quite 
devastating to the economy makes

691
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:28,600
us. 
Realize how much we're sort of 

692
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:34,160
perilous and a luxury product in
in the world, you know, under 

693
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:38,280
those sort of circumstances. 
And yet I would also say I am 

694
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:40,520
keeping going back to the 
Ukraine war because I think the 

695
00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:43,880
memorizers is based on that. 
The world in it is based on 

696
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:46,080
that. 
But art is one of the most 

697
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:52,080
important things for them to to 
uplift themselves from the war. 

698
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:56,840
And The thing is, we completely 
forgot that or it was completely

699
00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:01,040
removed from us. 
The art, the the that uplifting 

700
00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:03,080
thing. 
I mean, we were expected to 

701
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:08,680
batter our cutlery against our 
pants for the NHL, make our own 

702
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:12,400
music. 
You know, It's just so it was 

703
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:15,840
just sort of like, yeah, again, 
like childish stuff, but it 

704
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:19,760
wasn't art and everything. 
So, yeah, that's what shocked 

705
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:22,360
me. 
I think that we were removed 

706
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:24,880
from society. 
Yeah. 

707
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:27,040
Yeah. 
And it's still, I wouldn't say 

708
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:30,680
has come back completely. 
And then I was quite 

709
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:35,040
disappointed in the artists who 
started once they started to 

710
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:37,920
open up for events again to say,
well, you have to show proof of 

711
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:41,720
vaccination to come in. 
And there were some that did 

712
00:39:41,720 --> 00:39:43,200
that. 
And these were the people that I

713
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:46,280
thought were the the pre 
spirited creative types that 

714
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:49,560
which is let's, you know, just 
get together and make use of the

715
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:50,760
whole thing. 
You have to have your 

716
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:53,600
vaccination cards get in. 
You have to, you know, not safe 

717
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:56,000
otherwise. 
I was quite disappointed to see 

718
00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:57,720
some of that happening. 
We had a. 

719
00:39:57,720 --> 00:40:02,360
Big furor in Northern Ireland 
with Van Morrison going up 

720
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:06,960
against the health minister. 
So he was like very dangerous, 

721
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:10,160
very dangerous. 
He kept like parroting these 

722
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,520
kind of words to ridicule them. 
But that was interesting because

723
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:15,560
he was under so much attack at 
the time. 

724
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:20,600
And yet, yeah, I think, you 
know, that time is shown that, 

725
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:23,880
you know, he was pointing out 
the government autocracy at the 

726
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:25,800
time. 
So so. 

727
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:28,640
Artist did. 
At least one artist spoke out, 

728
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:32,840
but the majority of us didn't. 
I, I didn't either because I 

729
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:36,640
probably didn't have that voice 
that he had Van Morrison. 

730
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:41,840
But I think, yeah, I think it 
shows how conservative artists 

731
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:43,920
are. 
And yeah. 

732
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:46,960
That's interesting because I, I 
would have thought or before 

733
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:49,400
this, I would have thought that 
they were, that a lot of them 

734
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:53,160
would be quite the opposite, you
know, But I, I was still in the 

735
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:56,840
university system at the time 
and I just didn't say anything. 

736
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:01,880
It was, it was very difficult 
for me to, to not say anything 

737
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:05,280
because I was, I'd be on these, 
you know, these committee 

738
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:08,640
meetings or whatever with my 
colleagues and they would be 

739
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:11,520
sharing their vaccination 
stories and actually planning to

740
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:14,040
take off sick time because they 
knew that they would be sick 

741
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:17,600
after they got the jab because 
they were, everyone was, you 

742
00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:19,400
know, sick. 
So they said, well, that it's 

743
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:21,480
I'm going to give it a few days 
for it to work. 

744
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:26,000
So I need to plan sick time, 
obviously working very well. 

745
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:28,160
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

746
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:31,880
I mean, yeah, there was flu. 
I definitely had a flu symptoms 

747
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:34,600
after, but I don't think I 
needed a few days off. 

748
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:38,000
This is kind of like, yeah, I 
know. 

749
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:41,040
Everyone had their own 
expectations, different 

750
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:43,440
reaction. 
Whatever. 

751
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:46,720
But some people, if they heard 
other people were getting sick, 

752
00:41:46,720 --> 00:41:49,240
that even if they hadn't had it 
yet, they were planning days 

753
00:41:49,240 --> 00:41:51,240
off. 
Because I think partially 

754
00:41:51,240 --> 00:41:55,080
because university life was so 
demanding, it always is, but it 

755
00:41:55,080 --> 00:42:00,600
was really demanding after this 
all started because we were 

756
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:02,680
doing everything online and in a
very different way. 

757
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:07,240
And, and so again, language 
became even more complicated 

758
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:10,680
because instead of having a 
conversation with a student in 

759
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:13,920
our office for a few minutes, we
with all emails or it was all, 

760
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:20,120
you know, very much more, but 
much more demanding of time. 

761
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:25,960
And so if you have any reaction 
to anything, it, you would have 

762
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:30,160
been completely worn out, 
exhausted from any effect that 

763
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:32,880
it had on, on your immune system
if, if you chose to take one. 

764
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:38,000
So I personally didn't take 
them, but I was constantly 

765
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:40,640
covering for people who did take
them and were taking off time. 

766
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:43,200
And then so added to my 
workload, which is already heavy

767
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:48,080
because I wasn't getting sick. 
And, and so it was, it was the a

768
00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:51,280
very, very difficult time. 
And looking back, I'm, I'm just 

769
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:55,200
kind of glad that I'm out of the
system now because I think maybe

770
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:59,720
that was, that was a sign for me
before, before I got thrown out,

771
00:42:59,720 --> 00:43:01,400
that maybe I could not have been
there. 

772
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:03,880
Oh. 
It's interesting what you're 

773
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:07,800
saying also about the whole your
online experiences during that 

774
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:11,560
time and how hard that was. 
I mean, this is something that 

775
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:14,080
we should all be saying to tech 
companies. 

776
00:43:14,240 --> 00:43:17,600
Online is more time consuming. 
It's more exhausting for our 

777
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:21,600
eyes, backs and bodies. 
You know, we don't want to be 

778
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:24,480
controlled this way. 
I don't want this life. 

779
00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:28,120
I want to be in person doing 
things. 

780
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:32,480
It's far better for connectivity
and networking. 

781
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:35,120
We were at the conference, as 
you said, and we made a 

782
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:36,960
friendship. 
We would never been able to do 

783
00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:39,000
that otherwise. 
It's in person is the most 

784
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:43,680
important thing in life and we 
need to be kicking back, all of 

785
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:47,280
us united against these big 
corporations and saying no, 

786
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:49,600
we're not living our lives like 
that. 

787
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:51,840
Well, it's. 
But it's, again, they use the 

788
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:53,840
language to to push this on us, 
right? 

789
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:57,120
They say it's convenient, it's 
fast, it's unique, but they, 

790
00:43:57,360 --> 00:43:59,200
yeah, they. 
But again, it's the inversion, 

791
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:00,560
right? 
They say it is, but we're all 

792
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:03,080
frustrated and, you know, like, 
you know, I don't want, I don't 

793
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:06,160
want to set up an account just 
to buy something, right. 

794
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:09,240
Yeah, I. 
Know it takes ages to buy 

795
00:44:09,240 --> 00:44:12,040
something in an account. 
Yeah, and, and everything, even 

796
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:16,760
booking flights and things Yeah.
And oh, I can't remember what 

797
00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:19,960
what strange password I had for 
that. 

798
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:23,040
My computer hasn't saved it. 
You know, all of this stuff, 

799
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:28,160
it's just, it's just problematic
and all I want to do is just go 

800
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:31,720
down a shop and buy it in the 
same Rd. 

801
00:44:31,720 --> 00:44:34,640
I'm living in when I'm going out
for my groceries there and. 

802
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:38,080
I remember when I was doing all 
this teaching at home, you know,

803
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:42,240
because I was online with my 
students if, well, I, I'm 

804
00:44:42,240 --> 00:44:44,640
assuming they were there, a lot 
of them turned off their 

805
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:46,640
cameras. 
So I didn't know if they were 

806
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:48,800
there, if they just like logged 
in to say they were there and 

807
00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:51,840
went to sleep like I. 
They were. 

808
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:54,640
Refusing to turn on the camera. 
So like frequently talking to, 

809
00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:59,640
you know, 30 blank screens. 
But then because I was at home 

810
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:03,120
with my dogs and then so a 
delivery would come or the the 

811
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:05,720
post would come and then the 
dogs would bark as they do. 

812
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:09,880
And, and so if we got through a 
whole hour and the dogs didn't 

813
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:13,200
bark, they would say your dogs 
OK, because we didn't hear from 

814
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:14,200
them. 
Like, yeah, they're fine, just 

815
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:17,360
didn't have any deliveries for 
that past hour. 

816
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:21,480
They're that's how you know 
they're listening. 

817
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:22,440
That's it. 
Yeah. 

818
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:25,720
That's the only way. 
They're not interested in what 

819
00:45:25,720 --> 00:45:28,280
you're saying, but they they 
did. 

820
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:30,520
Want to see the dog? 
So I always put dog photos in my

821
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:33,080
in my lecture slides just to 
like keep them away. 

822
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:36,400
Oh dear. 
Yeah, yeah. 

823
00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:38,680
But. 
It, it is about that, it's about

824
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:43,480
when we're talking about 
communication that I really did 

825
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:48,440
find that it became more 
complicated because there was 

826
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:54,000
not only the recording, there 
was not only the, how do I 

827
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:56,640
explain this, just kind of that 
different presence that you have

828
00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:59,480
to have when you're online 
versus when you're in person. 

829
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:01,600
There's just a different feel 
about it, right? 

830
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:04,600
And then we started to find out 
that we had to create 

831
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:08,000
transcription because if there 
were, you know, students that 

832
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:11,000
had disabilities, where they, 
they had hearing difficulties 

833
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:13,480
that we had to learn how to do 
transcription. 

834
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:18,080
And it's, it's all very 
automated now because again, 

835
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:20,720
this has all progressed so 
quickly in the past five years, 

836
00:46:20,720 --> 00:46:24,520
But in 2020, it wasn't that way.
So we had to find different 

837
00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:26,520
alternatives to do all this. 
And people think, well, this, 

838
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:28,920
this is not to do with my 
subject area. 

839
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:31,400
You're making me do all these 
extra things that are not even 

840
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:34,240
part of it. 
And the university at the time 

841
00:46:34,240 --> 00:46:36,760
was actually saying, well, if 
you don't have a laptop with a 

842
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:39,280
camera, record your lectures on 
your phone. 

843
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:41,280
Like how personal is that, 
right? 

844
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:44,640
And, and, and students are 
paying fees of thousands of 

845
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:46,480
pounds per year to have a 
lecture recorded on their 

846
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:50,040
phones. 
So all of this language, again, 

847
00:46:50,240 --> 00:46:54,400
was meant to, I believe, 
suppress us, meant to suppress, 

848
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:56,960
you know, everything that we 
were doing. 

849
00:46:56,960 --> 00:46:59,720
And the language was all central
to all of it. 

850
00:46:59,720 --> 00:47:04,040
And, and I think that is still, 
well, sort of demonstrated in 

851
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:05,960
your book. 
And I, I really hope that people

852
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:07,760
read it so because I don't want 
to give, I don't want to give it

853
00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:09,560
away because then they nobody 
will buy the book. 

854
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:13,560
But yeah, I really hope that 
people read it because it does 

855
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:16,800
have some really important 
messages in it and it's very 

856
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:20,080
entertaining as well. 
So we just have a few minutes 

857
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:22,440
left. 
I don't know if you want to 

858
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:25,200
maybe talk a little bit about 
your book, kind of do your own 

859
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:28,760
promotion for it, or if if you 
want to leave it as a secret for

860
00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:30,800
people or No, no I. 
Don't want to leave it as a 

861
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:34,200
secret really it is about 
there's so many ideas in it and 

862
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:38,280
it's impossible to cover it. 
But there is the whole idea, the

863
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:42,400
memorizers, even the title is 
about memory and how that is 

864
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:48,480
removed, how it can be removed 
by authoritarian governments. 

865
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:53,320
And of course, I have a physical
de memorisation as well, which 

866
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:56,080
is interesting in it. 
But I think also, I think the 

867
00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:59,200
world in it. 
I want to talk about the that 

868
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:02,080
whole kind of thing. 
We were talking about messaging 

869
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:06,600
and when I was in Ukraine, one 
of the things that when you're 

870
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:12,880
on a train, you see you're given
this thing about nuclear war and

871
00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:17,520
what you do in it and how you 
undress and and get washed and 

872
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:19,040
everything. 
And all of these things were 

873
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:24,400
being pumped out and they 
terrified me, you know, So it's 

874
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:28,040
quite amazing, you know, the 
control that can be the 

875
00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:29,800
terrifying. 
And then we knew that from 

876
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:32,200
COVID. 
But this is even a more extreme 

877
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:37,480
one that you're all yeah, OK, 
yeah, fevers or or viruses are 

878
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:41,720
really bad, but this is like a 
nuclear war is now being. 

879
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:44,880
So that's really also how I got 
the idea that there would be a 

880
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:50,960
nuclear war in our I, I, I 
believe that's totally possible,

881
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:55,720
umm, because of escalation in 
the Ukraine war and between 

882
00:48:55,720 --> 00:48:59,320
America and things like that. 
So, but it's, it's that fear. 

883
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:03,960
So I felt a lot of fear and the 
sound of sirens really frighten 

884
00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:07,560
me in Ukraine as well. 
That is a real if you, if you're

885
00:49:07,720 --> 00:49:12,920
subject to that all the time, it
is a hysteria that grows in you.

886
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:16,840
And, and I know it's to protect 
people, but it's still, you feel

887
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:22,520
controlled because, yeah, 
because these are signs that you

888
00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:26,840
kind of automatically flinch at.
You know, it's very upsetting to

889
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:31,040
your central nervous system to 
live in Ukraine right now. 

890
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:34,600
And I think that was partly to 
relate it back to COVID. 

891
00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:37,280
That's what happened to us. 
Yeah. 

892
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:39,800
We're kept. 
No wonder the new generation is 

893
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:43,680
so anxiety Written. 
Written they are they. 

894
00:49:43,720 --> 00:49:48,120
Are Yeah, I, that reminds me of 
the early 90s when I was a 

895
00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:55,080
teenager and the the first Gulf 
War was going on and my mother 

896
00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:58,600
had CNN on all the time, right. 
And they were doing this 

897
00:49:58,720 --> 00:50:01,240
coverage of the invasion and, 
you know, when they were 

898
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:05,760
supposedly covering the, you 
know, they, they have all the 

899
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:07,880
air raid sirens going on all the
time. 

900
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:12,080
And I'll try to find this leak. 
If I remember it, I'll put this 

901
00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:14,800
in the write up for people to 
watch that it turned out that 

902
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:18,080
some of that was fake, that 
they, they're showing the air 

903
00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:20,640
raid sirens and saying, oh, and 
then they then they would like 

904
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:23,280
think the camera was off. 
And then they, they actually got

905
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:25,480
some of the footage of them 
showing them. 

906
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:27,640
Oh, this is not they're, this is
actually a background. 

907
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:29,880
They're not really in Riyadh. 
They're not really getting blown

908
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:33,840
up, but they're using this to to
create the fear. 

909
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:39,440
And, you know, Brian Garish on 
on UK column has done an amazing

910
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:42,680
job of the past few years of 
explaining exactly what's going 

911
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:45,680
on in Ukraine and how 
devastating it it truly is. 

912
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:50,200
But then all of the propaganda 
surrounding it that we get over 

913
00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:54,080
here and it's create, you know, 
kind of what that's all creating

914
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:56,080
for everyone. 
And as well as the amount of 

915
00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:59,080
money that gone into it. 
Unfortunately, the lives have 

916
00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:03,040
been lost, lots of money has 
been wasted, lots of propaganda 

917
00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:06,000
to support all of this. 
So again, that goes back to 

918
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:09,000
language, right? 
And and kind of how we're being 

919
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:12,440
manipulated. 
Yeah, yeah, certainly. 

920
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:17,880
I mean, yeah, that, yeah, it 
hasn't all the billions haven't 

921
00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:21,280
worked out, even though I, I 
believe we should support 

922
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:26,000
Ukraine in this because Russia 
is a terrible part, but it 

923
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:28,920
hasn't fully worked out. 
And The thing is that, yeah, 

924
00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:30,880
we're still in a terrible 
situation, situation with it. 

925
00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:34,800
Umm, and I, another thing I 
wanted to say about the whole 

926
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:39,840
digital thing in Ukraine is that
you have this, umm, you have an 

927
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:45,280
app that shows you when, uh, 
Russia is launching aircraft 

928
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:49,560
with missiles and but you don't.
This is things that people 

929
00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:52,000
constantly look at because 
obviously they're frightened. 

930
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:54,600
They want the information, they 
want to know if they should go 

931
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:58,680
in shelters, But the trouble is 
that this is going on like 24 

932
00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:03,680
hour 7 this. 
And sometimes when the aircraft,

933
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:05,080
you don't know where they're 
going. 

934
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:07,200
They could go to your city, they
could go anywhere. 

935
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:12,160
So you're on not, you're at an 
unnatural height of fear all the

936
00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:15,920
time without knowing. 
No information can tell you 

937
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:18,080
that. 
So the apps can be a kind of 

938
00:52:18,080 --> 00:52:22,480
productive into absolutely 
terrifying you, you know, So 

939
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:26,480
sometimes I feel that technology
can give you information, but it

940
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:31,400
can give you unnecessary 
overload that can totally wear 

941
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:33,000
you dine. 
Yeah. 

942
00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:35,160
It's all the the phone 
notifications that come in 

943
00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:37,760
constantly, right? 
That you have to continuously 

944
00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:41,280
turn off on any app that you 
download where it's just the 

945
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:46,680
constant reminders and trying to
sell you things and all, all the

946
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:49,960
stuff that you have to sort of 
actively go in and turn off if 

947
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:52,800
you don't want to be constantly 
interrupted by your phone. 

948
00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:57,400
Not sure if you've been aware of
the recent, well, they did this 

949
00:52:57,400 --> 00:53:00,480
the first time a couple of years
ago, the emergency sirens that 

950
00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:05,240
went on that, you know, if you 
go off at any time and if we 

951
00:53:05,240 --> 00:53:08,320
need to alert you to something, 
your phone is going to start 

952
00:53:08,720 --> 00:53:10,920
screaming at you in the middle 
of the night kind of thing. 

953
00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:15,960
And that's, that's just here. 
So I can't imagine that because 

954
00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:19,720
that that sort of the reaction 
that people get sort of that 

955
00:53:21,160 --> 00:53:23,560
that people feel like they can't
constantly need to be checking 

956
00:53:23,560 --> 00:53:25,320
out. 
We get, we get in some cases 

957
00:53:25,320 --> 00:53:28,240
that have been researched, the 
dopamine reaction, for example, 

958
00:53:28,240 --> 00:53:31,200
by playing online games that 
people get this they they need 

959
00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:33,280
that dopamine fix because it 
makes them feel better. 

960
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:35,720
And that's what gets people 
going back to playing online 

961
00:53:35,720 --> 00:53:38,680
games. 
I can't imagine what that would 

962
00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:41,560
feel like to constantly be 
checking an app to see when the 

963
00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:44,400
planes are coming. 
I I just, I can't imagine it as 

964
00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:47,960
well as the real life fear of 
the the threat that is actually 

965
00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:50,080
happening on the ground. 
And then you have the app and 

966
00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:52,400
you can check and see. 
We don't where's the plane now? 

967
00:53:52,720 --> 00:53:56,160
How how far am I away? 
That just sounds unbelievable to

968
00:53:56,160 --> 00:53:57,440
me. 
Yeah. 

969
00:53:57,480 --> 00:54:02,240
It certainly is and and but the 
whole this yeah, apps are so 

970
00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:06,360
intrusive with store MO and did 
you have one at store MO and did

971
00:54:06,360 --> 00:54:09,600
you have a one of the those 
beeps on your phone? 

972
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:11,520
No, I had. 
Mine turned off. 

973
00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:15,720
All right, yes, Yeah, That was 
another sort of terrifying 

974
00:54:15,720 --> 00:54:18,800
moment because I didn't know 
actually what was happening. 

975
00:54:19,160 --> 00:54:22,600
So you're thinking, could this 
be a 3 minute warning for a 

976
00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:23,520
nuclear bomb? 
Yeah. 

977
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:28,880
Exactly. 
So we. 

978
00:54:28,880 --> 00:54:31,640
Just have a few minutes left. 
I've really enjoyed this 

979
00:54:31,800 --> 00:54:33,360
conversation. 
I hope you have as well. 

980
00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:36,520
But yeah, I wanted to make sure,
you know, is there anything 

981
00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:38,840
else? 
I always give my guest the 

982
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:40,360
option to talk about anything 
else. 

983
00:54:40,360 --> 00:54:41,920
Is there anything else that we 
haven't covered? 

984
00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:43,880
So is there anything else that 
you'd like to share with the 

985
00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:46,280
audience? 
Well, yeah, I'm just going to 

986
00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:48,960
keep talking about the book, 
Diane, because absolutely it. 

987
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:52,240
Is it's what I'm here for? 
I'm gonna, yeah, Promote it to 

988
00:54:52,240 --> 00:54:54,320
the hilt, of course. 
Yeah. 

989
00:54:54,320 --> 00:54:58,920
The fact is, yeah, it it it's a 
human story. 

990
00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:04,240
I mean, The thing is, you know, 
we know about dystopian fiction 

991
00:55:04,240 --> 00:55:06,960
can sometimes be a little bit 
over. 

992
00:55:06,960 --> 00:55:10,440
You're kind of thinking more 
about the technology and how in 

993
00:55:10,440 --> 00:55:13,720
the future, because drone 
warfare is a huge thing in the 

994
00:55:13,720 --> 00:55:17,240
memorizers, of course, because 
that's what we've, the 

995
00:55:17,240 --> 00:55:21,880
technology has changed for that.
But I think the most important 

996
00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:27,560
thing is the human aspect. 
I mean, it's 1984. 

997
00:55:27,560 --> 00:55:31,120
It's Winston and Julia. 
It's the kind of thwarted love 

998
00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:35,040
affair that sounds like Romeo 
and Juliet to Winston and Julia.

999
00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:38,360
But it is there is that kind of.
To. 

1000
00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:44,200
Humanize the future is a kind of
really important thing and I 

1001
00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:49,200
think it's this quest of of my 
central character Joe Elliot, a 

1002
00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:53,560
journalist who wants to find out
why she was on the front line, 

1003
00:55:53,560 --> 00:55:57,840
why she was injured, all of 
these things that make us human 

1004
00:55:57,840 --> 00:56:02,320
and our quests in life what of 
discovery. 

1005
00:56:02,520 --> 00:56:06,320
And I think now I think 
particularly in this society 

1006
00:56:06,320 --> 00:56:13,600
where things are crazy and I 
think we need to discover things

1007
00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:16,720
and and speak out about them. 
And that is really the impulse 

1008
00:56:16,720 --> 00:56:19,760
inner, you know. 
And, and yeah, I said that came 

1009
00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:22,960
from my own cancellation. 
We discussed that earlier. 

1010
00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:26,640
And all of those things is about
being able to freely speak out 

1011
00:56:26,640 --> 00:56:32,480
and not repress your own 
thoughts in society and words. 

1012
00:56:32,520 --> 00:56:34,440
And I think that is the most 
important thing. 

1013
00:56:34,600 --> 00:56:39,360
So that that that was the main 
propulsion for the book is to 

1014
00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:42,160
say I'm tired of being 
controlled. 

1015
00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:44,400
I need to break free. 
Yeah. 

1016
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:45,960
And. 
And, and I think that this has 

1017
00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:48,960
come out through our, our whole 
discussion because we've seen 

1018
00:56:49,040 --> 00:56:52,320
how this is like permeated every
aspect of life. 

1019
00:56:52,360 --> 00:56:56,240
And, and I think that your book 
does such a great job of sort of

1020
00:56:56,240 --> 00:56:59,360
encapsulating all of that. 
I, I just, I really can't 

1021
00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:01,880
recommended enough to our 
audience. 

1022
00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:05,000
So I do hope everyone runs out 
and buys a coffee after they've 

1023
00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:08,240
listened to this conversation 
because I, I think they think 

1024
00:57:08,240 --> 00:57:11,600
that maybe people realize how 
much they're being controlled, 

1025
00:57:11,600 --> 00:57:14,240
Even those of us who are kind of
awake to it. 

1026
00:57:15,600 --> 00:57:20,120
When you see it coming into 
every aspect of, of life in 

1027
00:57:20,120 --> 00:57:25,920
2025, you and I have been 
exposed to it to the extreme and

1028
00:57:25,920 --> 00:57:27,840
to the fact that impacted our 
careers. 

1029
00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:33,560
But just in everyday decisions 
that were being manipulated by, 

1030
00:57:33,720 --> 00:57:37,080
by words and language. 
And, and I, and I hope that when

1031
00:57:37,080 --> 00:57:39,600
people read it, not if people 
read it, but when people read 

1032
00:57:39,600 --> 00:57:44,440
it, that they will maybe start 
to consider as much as possible 

1033
00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:46,440
to kind of just, I would 
encourage everyone to take a 

1034
00:57:46,440 --> 00:57:51,480
step back and think about how 
this is just infiltrated every 

1035
00:57:51,480 --> 00:57:55,440
aspect of our lives. 
And even if we don't, even if we

1036
00:57:55,440 --> 00:57:57,520
don't think we're affected, we 
still are. 

1037
00:57:58,560 --> 00:58:02,720
So yeah, I, again, I want to 
encourage everyone to read it. 

1038
00:58:02,720 --> 00:58:04,720
So again, I'll just hold it up 
one more time. 

1039
00:58:04,720 --> 00:58:08,880
This is with my Jenkinson. 
Here's the back. 

1040
00:58:09,440 --> 00:58:12,240
Yeah, Yeah. 
All about freedom. 

1041
00:58:13,200 --> 00:58:16,720
About freedom, yeah. 
And liberty from, from what 

1042
00:58:16,720 --> 00:58:18,440
we're going through right now, 
yeah. 

1043
00:58:19,000 --> 00:58:24,200
Absolutely, and art is such a 
powerful way to express is the. 

1044
00:58:24,200 --> 00:58:27,640
Best way to express it? 
There's no other there's no 

1045
00:58:27,640 --> 00:58:30,880
other medium that could possibly
express this because words 

1046
00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:32,440
actually are the thing that 
control. 

1047
00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:36,280
People think it's images, but 
actually the words are much 

1048
00:58:36,280 --> 00:58:40,280
more, even though I think they 
are, because they can be 

1049
00:58:40,280 --> 00:58:43,040
manipulated more. 
I mean, I suppose we have things

1050
00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:46,800
like AI that can manipulate 
images now and deep fix, but I 

1051
00:58:46,800 --> 00:58:52,120
think words are the ones in 
which it it comes from us. 

1052
00:58:52,200 --> 00:58:56,120
We control the words and that's 
what is so frightening if we 

1053
00:58:56,120 --> 00:58:58,920
become controlled and we can't 
control those words. 

1054
00:58:59,240 --> 00:59:02,640
So therefore word control is a 
lot more dangerous for us. 

1055
00:59:04,880 --> 00:59:07,680
Yeah. 
So it's really about being 

1056
00:59:07,720 --> 00:59:12,600
conscious about the words that 
you're using, but yet not being 

1057
00:59:12,600 --> 00:59:17,520
obsessed about it because the 
words that you use can be used, 

1058
00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:20,440
right. 
We take offence much more 

1059
00:59:20,440 --> 00:59:23,880
everything today. 
So therefore the words are more 

1060
00:59:23,880 --> 00:59:26,720
important than that we use. 
So I. 

1061
00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:29,240
But but yet don't police 
yourself. 

1062
00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:32,160
And it's that balance. 
So how do you do the words that 

1063
00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:35,120
you aren't going to offend too 
much, but without policing 

1064
00:59:35,120 --> 00:59:37,320
yourself? 
And that is there's so there's 

1065
00:59:37,320 --> 00:59:40,680
so many balances going on that 
we're all checking and our 

1066
00:59:40,680 --> 00:59:43,080
brain, even when we're having 
conversations, we're checking 

1067
00:59:43,080 --> 00:59:44,920
that. 
I, I'm checking it with you. 

1068
00:59:44,920 --> 00:59:47,520
Sometimes, you know, I can't 
help that because I'm so 

1069
00:59:47,520 --> 00:59:50,040
conditioned now, right? 
Right. 

1070
00:59:50,160 --> 00:59:52,360
No, yeah, no, that's a really 
good point. 

1071
00:59:52,360 --> 00:59:57,480
And to end on, I think because, 
but let's just yeah, let's all 

1072
00:59:57,480 --> 01:00:01,360
just take a moment, take a step 
back, think about are we being 

1073
01:00:01,360 --> 01:00:03,360
controlled? 
Yes, we are and and and what 

1074
01:00:03,360 --> 01:00:05,600
what can we do differently in 
this world about it? 

1075
01:00:05,600 --> 01:00:09,280
Because I I always say that 
strength in numbers that the 

1076
01:00:09,280 --> 01:00:12,240
more of us that realize. 
What's happening there are of us

1077
01:00:12,240 --> 01:00:16,320
that that make steps against 
that in whatever ways that we we

1078
01:00:16,320 --> 01:00:19,400
can in our own lives. 
And there are so many ways to do

1079
01:00:19,400 --> 01:00:21,560
it. 
And and so, Rosemary, I think I 

1080
01:00:21,560 --> 01:00:23,880
want to thank you again for 
writing such a brilliant novel 

1081
01:00:25,200 --> 01:00:28,160
and it's been a treat. 
It's been a treat to be on with 

1082
01:00:28,160 --> 01:00:32,680
you and and have an open an open
and free spirited discussion. 

1083
01:00:34,320 --> 01:00:36,640
Well, you know, and I think that
this all comes through in your 

1084
01:00:36,640 --> 01:00:40,280
writing as well. 
And thank you to everyone who's 

1085
01:00:40,400 --> 01:00:42,600
who's joined us today for this 
conversation. 

1086
01:00:43,160 --> 01:00:44,600
Thank you, Rosemary, for your 
time. 

1087
01:00:44,600 --> 01:00:47,360
Again, this is Zion Rasmussen 
Mcatty with UK column. 

1088
01:00:47,640 --> 01:00:49,840
Thank you, everyone, and have a 
wonderful day. 

1089
01:00:50,320 --> 01:00:50,640
Thank you.