Hello and welcome to another episode of the Silk and Steel
Podcast. I am your host, Carl Zar.
Today we have a very special guest from Beijing.
Jason, I have known you for a long time, Jason Smith For the
people who don't know you, for the people I don't know why they
would know you, but for for people who might not know you.
Jason, could you do a very brief intro of who you are and what
you do? Well, my name is Jason Smith.
I am a radio show host, which I think is special because I think
I'm the only actual American U.S. citizen radio show host in
China. So if you turn on the radio in
some cities, you're going to hear my voice, which I think is
special. I, I, my podcast is called The
Bridge to China. You can find us on all
podcasting platforms. I recently wrote this book.
And so I'm kind of studying like what China is doing with other
developing countries around the world.
And now I'm working on another book, which is studying poverty
alleviation in China. I'm very interested.
I go to like small villages that used to be impoverished and I
study how they've become more prosperous.
Well, that what that road has been like and how they did it.
And I want to I want to do that for other developing countries,
but also because I think some of those techniques can actually be
replicated back home in the States.
And I think that would be cool. Yeah, I can.
You just read out the title of the book because it's it's
backwards when you hold it up the the title, it's kind of hard
to read because it's backwards. But what does the title say?
A world beyond poverty, China's road map to a shared future.
This is I wouldn't recommend this for people who don't like
difficult books because this is like a a compendium.
It's like an encyclopedia of projects from around the world.
It's not like a book about, oh, my experience of no, it's just
one project after another. What did China build?
How much did it cost? Was it a grant?
Was it a loan? What were the terms, you know,
what is China actually doing in Laos or what is China actually
doing in Egypt? You know, what is it did it
actually do? Because a lot of people have
weird ideas that China is debt trapping countries and it's it's
just not true. So I wanted to produce a book
that explicitly shows what China is actually up to in a lot of
these developing countries. What's it, what is it building,
and what are those countries getting and what are they giving
in return? Well, the reason I invited to my
show, Jason, is to provide easy, accessible information to my
audience. So what I so you know, because I
like to do it in the podcast for much like you you, but I I'm
kind of interested. How does American boy like you
ended up in China in the first place?
Well, I, I got a master's degree in California and it was in
modern world history, but like most Americans, I've never
actually seen the world outside of North America, right.
So I was like, OK, well, I need to go see the world if I'm going
to pretend that I understand what it's like.
So I moved to South Korea and, you know, that wasn't for me.
It was a great, it's a great country, wonderful food,
wonderful people, but it, I wasn't the right fit for me.
Then I moved to China and I, my intention at that point was I'm
gonna move every two or three years to a new country.
And then I just got soaked. This was 2012 July when I moved
to China and I, I fell in love with China and then I just
couldn't leave. And now I now I'm just here.
You're stuck. You you.
You met your wife in China. That's right.
Yeah. We we met in Shandong.
She's from Shandong and we were immediately a couple and we're
we got married the next year and now she's asleep in in the
bedroom. She sleeps during the day.
I don't know. Well, you, you, you, you, you
have much compliment on your wife's taste on on the on the
beautiful background you have. That's right.
This is her. Yeah.
Yeah, the traditional Chinese painting of cranes.
That looks very nice and so OK. So how did you get into the
radio business? You know, I, that's not my was
never my intention to be in media, but around 2018-2019, you
know, we're both from the United States.
So like, you know, before 2017, China was not really even in the
media. And when it was, it was like,
oh, it's polluted and that's or pandas and that's all you heard
right. And then 2017, 18, the US media
turned just 180 on China and everything China was bad.
All of a sudden, I was shocked by this, you know, as an
American living in China, because a lot of this stuff,
almost all of the stuff that I saw in the media was completely
false or highly inaccurate or just used a grain of truth to
just talk about all these other weird accusations.
And so I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
I want to say why that's not true.
So I started going onto social media and saying, you know,
making videos in China. Actually I was in Chinese social
media at 1st and saying, hey, you know, I appreciate you.
I'm sorry that US is saying this stuff and it got really popular.
And then CGTN, which is a China Global Television News, a
network, it's a huge agency here.
It's the the largest English speaking television channel,
maybe the only real major English speaking television
channel, reached out to me and said, would you like to be on
TV? And I said no.
But then they were like, oh, we have radio.
And I was like, Oh yeah, that sounds great because there's CDT
and radio, formerly CRI. And so actually I went to work
for CRI as a radio show host doing podcast the the Bridge to
China. And then I, I at that, just
before then, I sort of switched my media to the West and gone on
X and all of these other platforms.
And so my, my social media personality on X, that's me.
I couldn't get away with that. If that was an official CGTN
platform. A lot of people say, oh, you say
this stuff because you're paid by the CGTN.
Now the radio show is CGTN, but my comments on social media are
my comments. So all that crazy stuff, you
know, actually, I like you. You referred to yourself one
time six months ago or a year ago as a as a shit poster.
And I thought I always. Refer to myself as.
A shit poster. I saw that and I thought, oh, I
like that. You know, I want to run with
that because I don't I want to just be able to say anything.
I don't want to have to be really official and like very
formal and like stick to the rules.
I just wanted to just go crazy. And I thought when you, when I
saw you post that, I thought that's my model for how I'm
going to be. And I, I, I really have just,
you know, call out BS online about China.
And it's easy for me because people will say, well, China's
like this. I can walk outside in Beijing
and film and show that it's not like that.
So it's easy for me to win a lot of these arguments because
people will say, well, this is what China's like.
And I can literally just go like 5 minutes down, down stairs and
start filming and show why that's not true.
And so that you know, that's. People will and people will say
if China is great, why don't you go live in?
China. Yeah, exactly.
I get that every single day. And you're like, I'm in Beijing.
Right. Yeah.
It's so strange. Yeah.
It was really made straight. Go ahead, go ahead.
Go. No, no, no.
Go ahead, Go ahead. What makes it strange is that X
has this new find where you are location thing.
And because, you know, we use VPNs in China, Sometimes I'm in
Finland, sometimes I'm in Macedonia, and it moves around.
So different times when people click on my X account, they say
you're in the United States, you're lying about living in
China or you're in Macedonia, you're lying about it.
It's it's there is no China option.
So X does not have the technical capability to tell where people
actually are. So that's been really
frustrating. I'm currently based in Bali.
I have been living here since the pandemic and now some people
use that as a gotcha. It's like, ah, you are
Indonesia. Why are you talking about China?
I'm like, people do travel around, you know, Chinese people
do get around, they, they travel around the world.
You know, I've been, I also been living in the United States for
almost 30 years. And so, but, but people, people
just assume I'm some sort of Chinese bot.
So I have to tell people I'm the latest generation Chinese AI.
That's very realistic. How so?
How's you know, you know, obviously you have settled in
your life in Beijing. Has the kind of the downturn in
the Sino American relationship affect you in, you know, your
everyday living in China? You know, not really.
People are still very friendly. When I got here, I was, I was
very curious as an American, what do Chinese people think of
America, right. So I asked around and at that
time, 2012 to 2016, everyone was like, oh, we look up to America.
You know, we want to, you know, develop like America.
People were very open, you know, they owe to my American friend
after Trump's initiated his first trade war 2017.
Like people we're still like, we like America, but we don't like
this trade war, you know. So people in China are really
friendly. I mean, I'm sure that there are
like outlier people who are really upset about it.
Maybe they they were exporters and it hurt them or something.
But the general person on the street is very friendly to
foreigners of all kinds. Wherever you're from, you're
from Kazakhstan, great. You're from England, great.
You're from US, great. You know, like, so it's, you
know, my daily life is really nice.
People are really polite and nice to me.
Nothing's really changed. Actually, I would say if
anything, what's happened is from the period 10 years ago to
now, China has become safer. My own thinking about this is
that it's because there's a lot more prosperity.
You know, people who used to be impoverished are less less
likely to be impoverished today. People who made less money
before make more money today. You know, the infrastructure is
great. So I think people are just, you
know, because there's prosperity, because there's a
lack of poverty like there used to be.
I go outside and I feel safer than ever.
You know, when I first moved to China, I was like, OK, you know,
I still need to keep my guard up a little maybe.
And I don't want to buy bike stolen.
I need to lock it up. Like I was in the US.
It didn't notice a massive difference.
But today, my gosh, like I could just leave my bike in the middle
of the the street. People will just leave it there,
whatever, It doesn't matter. It's, it's so incredibly safe.
It's incredibly safe feeling at night, walking around anywhere
in any city, rural, urban, doesn't matter.
It's just so I would say over the same period of time, I've
actually just become more comfortable despite the trade
war. Hopefully, you know, that'll be
walked back a little bit. There were some agreements made
recently when President Xi and President Trump met.
And I'm hoping that the relationship can get back on
track a little bit, become more normalized.
Yeah, I mean, that's my hope too.
I'm I'm a Chinese American. You know, for me, I have always
hope had hope to see a better relationship between the two
countries because especially for me that that would be good for
me and my family. But unfortunately, you know,
things hasn't hasn't turned out so rosy for the last eight, 7-8
years. But you know what you mentioned
about the safety issue, You know, I've seen so many videos
online of like people leaving cell phone or laptop, a coffee
like Starbucks in China and then come back and it's still there.
I actually experienced that myself.
I was in Shanghai a couple months ago and I left my Xiaomi
phone charging in a like a Community Center, you know, in a
residential compound where my friend lived.
And then I, I, I totally forgot. I, I, we, we wandered off for
like 2 hours and I'm like, where's my phone?
And I'm like, oh wait, I left it charging at a Community Center.
We went back, the phone was still there, but I have to say
that was not the case back in 1980s when I, I lived in China,
but back then that that phone will be gone, It'll be long
gone. So I think I agree with you.
I think it's part of the, the, the prosperity, the general
prosperity. Now people are generally don't
need to do that. And and also they there's,
there's also, you know, a lot of things also got better.
General etiquette is getting is developing like in 1980s.
I can tell you there's no such thing as keowing.
There's no such thing as lining up.
I mean, like I like, because I remember one time just back,
back in, in my days to make a phone call to my dad who was
studying for PhD in United States.
Might we didn't have a phone in our in our apartment.
So we actually have to travel to downtown Fengqing to get to go
to like a China post office or something that where the heck we
can, we can do international calls, right, right.
So, so, so it's a whole day trip.
On the way back, we have to catch a bus to go back home.
And I remember it was during rush hour.
The bus comes and the whole before there was some kind of
semi line and but when the bus as soon as a bus door open, the
crowd just like swore the bus and and there's like some young
guys like 20 something, they will climb through the window
open when yeah, me and my my mom's like, oh, OK, my God,
there's no way we could get out that bus.
Let's just walk. We have to walk.
Like several. Blocks to the next bus stop to
catch a a different bus. But that was kind of the
experience in the 1980s. I was pleasantly surprised when
I went back to China in 2019, just before the pandemic.
That's I think when I first noticed about the behavior
change. I was like, wow, people actually
stopping at the red light. You know, people actually have
made the signals there today, you know, rather than treating
it as like a, you know, a mere suggestion.
So, so I think people, some people attribute that to the
prevalence of cameras. May, I mean, maybe plays part of
it, but I generally appreciate the change.
You know, I appreciate that things are getting nicer now
and, and safer and very, very safe.
You know, people, I don't know what your experience, but from
my my experience in China is that I don't feel, yes, there
are a lot of cameras, but I don't feel like a lot of people
really care about it. They they, they see camera as
like safety, provide safety. Yeah.
Because I I me too. Because I remember, yeah,
because I remember walking out long trails in the Great Wall,
like really kind of secluded part of Great Wall.
They have cameras along the trail and, and, and, and for a
lot of Chinese people, that's, that's safety.
That's, you know, like they, they know they will be safe even
there alone walking a trail in the in the wild Great Wall.
Yeah. So I think that there's that,
there's that. So there's just a lot of very
different perceptions because I think what what it is is when
people talk about China, you know, from the West in
particular, a lot of times they're not really talking about
China. They're talking about a
projection in their mind of like their own worst fears about
their own society. So, you know, rather than the
real China that existed out there, you know, I think, I
think this is sometimes it's kind of frustrating.
I I understand it must be frustrating for you try to kind
of, you know, convey what China is really like.
You know what it's not? It's not just that it's
frustrating, it's that there is, it seems to be deliberate
disinformation, whether it's from state actors or from
individuals who are just full of hate.
Wherever it's coming from, there's a lot of disinformation
like the social credit score thing.
This is actually outside of my home.
There is a camera. I noticed yesterday.
It is a bunch of cameras and one of them points straight at the
road. And one of the things I read
this morning when I woke up under one of my tweets was, oh,
if you jaywalk, your social credit score goes down.
So I'm going to set up my camera on a tripod outside and I'm
going to walk back and forth across the street numerous times
like to show that, you know, it doesn't affect me in any kind of
way because there is something called a social credit score.
That's what's confusing in China, they have multiple credit
score systems and one of them is called a social credit score.
But actually it's for your credit.
It's like not dissimilar from AUS credit system.
So if you take a loan and you don't pay it, guess what, you
have difficulty getting another loan, same as the the US.
But if you jaywalk or like, I don't know, post something about
Winnie the Pooh online or whatever the lie is right now,
nothing happens to you. There's I've even read people
say like, oh, because this person jaywalked when they went
to the store, they couldn't buy milk because they have to pay
with their face. And there's so many like little
tiny pieces of things that are accurate that it can be
confusing to someone who doesn't understand.
For example, if you choose to, you can set up facial payment at
a lot of stores so you could actually pay for your groceries.
But that's not what people do. People use their phone and QR
codes. But like that, the idea that
something in your behavior is going to prevent you from buying
food or prevent you from getting into your home is insane.
It's completely ludicrous. Nothing like that exists.
I could jaywalk all day long. I could probably spend 12 hours
jaywalking back and forth. Nothing.
No credit system is going to notice that.
It doesn't matter, the police won't even notice, they'll
probably just think there's someone completely out of their
mind if they do notice that the guy walking back and forth on
the little bubble or something. Like actually I don't think
anyone even watches the cameras, not even AI.
The people who have. No no.
This is interesting. I want to point this out because
I wanted Full disclosure. People do have things like can't
stay in a five star hotel, can't take high speed rail, can't take
first class airplanes, can't have a passport to go abroad.
Those people are called frauds and they have scammed people out
of millions of RMB. Have have they?
Maybe they haven't paid 50 employees at their factory or
something. That also didn't happen by a
app. It wasn't like AI made that
decision. They were brought before a
judge. The judge said, hey, you have,
you know, you owe 9 million RMB to your employees that you
haven't paid for three months. Guess what, we're going to, you
can't leave the country because you may have embezzled that
money and hid it in the Cayman Islands.
We don't want you to just go there and live a happy life.
You have to stay here and these are your limitations until you
pay that debt back. And that those people, you can
actually also, because they, I've seen this, they've, oh, I
found them on an app, all the people with low social social
credit scores. Yes, there are in fact apps
where you can find people who have are fraudulent scammers.
And it's like Megan's Law in California.
You're from California, right? So in California we have a law
called Megan's Law. And for these people who are
pedophiles? They, you can find them on
Megan's Law in your neighborhood.
So you can make sure, hey, I don't want my kids playing over
there, right? So they have an app for that In
China, there is an app to find people with The Who are
fraudulent scammers. And it's to make sure that you
don't go into business with them not knowing Full disclosure,
this person owes 20 million RMB because they did they, you know,
they were scamming other people, but that that's it.
It doesn't affect normal people. Grandma, you know, walking
across the street in the wrong place or saying something to her
neighbor about not liking some government policy doesn't affect
anything at all. And that's one of the things I
find most frustrating. People find little tiny things
that are true, like, oh, their facial recognition can be used
to pay groceries, and they mix it with a pack of lies, and then
they try to sell it to people. Like that's what China's like
when it's nothing like that. And that's really frustrating.
That that's why I tell people seeing is believing just come to
China and see for yourself. You know, I, I was travelling
with a South African guy germs, you know, so I, I just took him
on a bicycle ride. We got those rideshare bikes.
You know where you stand your with Alipay QR code and then you
can rent it for like a 1.5 RMB for next hour.
So we, we were riding around Shanghai and we're waiting at
the, the, the, the stop. Like you see, you see those two
guys just drove their scooter without helmet, right?
And like right did, did a, did a total illegal, illegal turn on
the red. You see that, you know, like,
you know, you use the West. They will think they'll be ZAB
or something like because this is not on camera and social
credit. But no, let that that still
happens. You know, unfortunately there's
still rule Breakers. You know, very.
Late rule Breakers. And, you know, it's not, yeah,
that that social credit dystopia stuff, you know, it's, yeah.
So there's a lot of projection, I guess.
I think there are a lot of surveillances in the West.
So This is why I tried to tell people, look, yeah, they're
cameras in China. Yes, they're equally among.
There's just as many cameras in City of London, right.
And guess what? At least in China, you're safe.
You have all the cameras, you're still not safe.
But yeah, that's the difference. You know, that's a really good
point. A lot of people say, oh, the
reason people don't when I I post, oh, China is one of the
safest places in the world. I put statistics up.
People say, oh, that's just because there's cameras
everywhere. And actually your response that,
hey, London's also filled with an insane amount of cameras, but
there are stabbings and, you know, people are robbed in broad
daylight or in the in the subway systems.
It's clearly not just because of the cameras.
There's something else going on. I think it is, you know, no
offense to the UK or the United States, They are very developed
countries, but in a in a lot of ways, it's becoming harder for
their middle class in these developed countries.
In the United States, people are struggling, people are living
paycheck to paycheck and you know, rent is out, you know,
inflation, all these things. So it actually creates
criminality. That's where criminals come
from. Criminals come from need, and in
China, there is still need. You know, there's still some
degree of poverty in some rural areas that it needs to be
corrected and is being corrected.
But the difference is they're better off today than they were
five years ago or 10 years ago or 20 years ago.
And so there's a feeling of upward mobility here in China.
That is a very good point because I have experienced that
myself. You know, I lived in China in
1980s, as I often tell people, you know, I, I live in a times
when, you know, we need ration papers to buy everything, right?
Cooking oil to like, to like rise to close.
And, and, and I saw that, you know, gradually that was being
phased out and there were plenty of goods in the market.
You can, yes, you can. You can buy as long as you have
money, you know, whereas you know, back in the days that you
have to go line up at the designated government stores
with ration papers. You know, there, there used to
be such a thing called friendship stores where they
will sell imported goods, foreign goods.
And you cannot even use, you cannot even buy with R&B the
Chinese money. You have to have like what they
call the foreign exchange certificate.
And you want to get the foreign exchange certificate.
If you take like a hard currency, like foreign currency,
go to the People's Bank of China to trade it in for R&B and then
they give you the the French, the foreign currency exchange
certificate. And with that then you will be
able to purchase imported foreign goods.
There's one like 1980s but but, but you know that soon changed
goes to the come 1990s two thousand and everything is made
in China anyway. So, you know, you don't need,
you don't need to buy imported goods anymore unless, you know,
you really want to buy like that, that Ferrari or so or
Porsche or something. Yeah.
You know, you mentioned another thing that really makes life
convenient here and a lot of people get frustrated, you know,
economists in the West like, oh, China's inflation is, you know,
only like .8 if you take out electricity and food.
So it's it's very slow. That's great.
You know, my wife, I love her to death, but she has bought and
I'm not exaggerating, something like 10 purses in the last month
because she just, I suddenly just went, I had won all these
purses and she's ordering purses and sending them back, but
keeping some of them. And the thing about it is
everything's made in China. So I'm like, Oh my gosh, that
purse looks really expensive. How much is it?
60 RMB, which is like less than 10 bucks.
And it's like something that would cost hundreds in the
United States, you know, because of tariffs and because of
profiteers and middle men and stores and whatever.
So like we get amazing deals living in China.
So, you know, if you want to buy a laptop or whatever, you can
get everything like way less expensive than in the West.
It's one of the perks of living in China.
It's just like so they make so much stuff.
Yeah, everything, everything price at least double S when
they leave China. Like I, I know because I just
bought a Chinese EV here in Indonesia and I know for the
same brand, same spec of car in China, that car cost like like
1/2 of what I've just paid, You know, just just because, you
know, tariffs and, and like, and the company could make a profit
because there's less competition for other Chinese EV makers.
There's not that many brands here yet, whereas China they
have insane amount of competition.
So that, that competition keeps the price stop.
And so, you know, it's, it's great time to be a Chinese
consumer today. This is another thing I, I wish
people understand is that China, despite its very developed
infrastructure, in many ways even surpassing the developed W,
the price is still very affordable.
Like, like, like the hotel, especially hotels, like some
very nice hotels that would cost like go for like 4-5 hundred
dollars in, in, in, in, in New York or Los Angeles in here.
You can't, you know, it's like you, you go for like 10, that
price, maybe like 40 from 40 to $80.
You can have. I mean, it's amazing.
People. People should just talk to
China. Yeah, go.
Ahead Oh yeah, I Oh yeah. I, I mean, I don't, I, I'd like
the I, I want people to come visit for a week or two and
that's going to change a lot of minds.
And, you know, people who do are going to go back home with a
completely different perspective.
But I think living here is also really would be helpful in some
cases. You, you mentioned cars.
I was also thinking about used internal combustion engines.
Used ICE cars are so cheap. So like if you want to buy like
a A5 year old Porsche in China, it costs like 10% of a new
Porsche. So you go on these apps and
what's what's happening is they're selling as many as they
can in China. And then actually they're taking
all these used cars and shipping them to other countries to sell
used cars in those countries because you can't sell them for
any real value in China anymore because everyone's switching to
EVs. So you can go online and find
like a Mercedes from five years ago and get it for 10% of the
cost of a brand new Mercedes. And so, like, all these people
who couldn't afford cars before, like not only are they buying
EVs, which are, you know, like more than half of all of the
cars in China now, but like, they're also buying used ICE
cars. And like, oh, I have a Mercedes
now, but they're like, you know, lower middle class.
Nice. Yeah.
That's really nice. I Yeah.
I wish people really understood that.
But you, you, you don't really get to experience it until you
see it. You know, seeing is still
believing. This is why I encourage anybody
just travel to China. See for yourself.
Even the China haters at least understand what you're hating.
You know, like, like right now you're just hating A abstract.
A abstract concept that only exists in your mind.
Yeah. So you know what's really funny?
The haters. I'm sorry, I drew real quick.
The haters, actually, they film things that are not what they
seem and then they show it as something else.
There's a very famous video that's going around right now
that a lot of the people who dislike China are posting,
trying to prove that there are homeless people in China.
I'm sure that there are some homeless people in China, but
it's very rare. But they show these videos of
like people sleeping in front of the train station, right?
You know, in the 30 minutes or an hour before it opens in the
morning. And they're like proof that
China has homeless people. And it's like most people don't
even look homeless. They're just like on a mat, like
kind of reading their phone like it, you know, they were right in
front of a train station. Those people are clearly just
waiting to get into the train station Or other examples.
I'm sure you can find video of real homeless people in China.
But you know, I live in Beijing. As far as I know, when I visit,
I travel around a lot. There's one guy I know of this
for sure homeless one guy. So like, maybe there's somewhere
else or something, but you know, I ride a bike, so I see
everything, you know, I go through all kinds of different
neighborhoods. There's one guy who's clearly
has some kind of issue. He's completely unkempt and he
plays the arhu with a can in front of him with a QR code on
it. He's the only guy I know in all
of Beijing that is for sure homeless.
So like, yes, maybe homelessness does exist, but the it's such an
outlier. That's like .000 whatever
statistical phenomenon that these people are.
You know, you go to San Francisco and you know, it's
like homeless person, homeless person, homeless person,
homeless person. It's not the same at all.
So people who are clearly just, you know, I do, I want people
who dislike China to come to China because I think it'll
change a lot of minds. But for some people, they're
just going to keep making up lies no matter what.
Sure. Yeah.
I think a lot of these lies are basically, you know, Copian,
Copian and opium. Because as US is experiencing
its own very serious structural problems, you know, as some
people say, US is going to decline and as China rise, there
will be a lot of people who are trying to seek comfort in
trying, trying to know all China is just as bad.
So like, like, like US may be bad, may be getting worse, but
China is even worse, right that that.
It's. I think it's that kind of
mentality that kind of fuels all these production of Copian that
we see on social media. And and I think it's gonna get
worse, you know, when US experiencing more problems,
unfortunately. And yeah, yeah.
The only, only I think the only way is for people to actually be
in China to see what it is for themselves and then to decide to
for themselves. This is, you know, what is
really going on here. And it's and you know, it's
slightly not not for Americans yet, but it's a lot easier for
Europeans nowadays. You know many of these country
already have 30 days visa free to visit to China.
I think most European countries now now do.
But unfortunately Americans still have to have to go go to
the Chinese consulate to get a visa.
But but I got my 10 year multi entry visa that's still valid
until like 2029 so I'm good. Wow, Yeah, that's nice.
Yeah, I I also want to point out that I think that they I think
the reason that U.S. citizens haven't been given the visa free
thing is because I mean, the reality you're a geopolitical
analyst is that the United States meddles in the internal
affairs of other countries. If China just gave blank checks
for people to come to China for 30 days and from the United
States, I think the concern is that American that the United
States or the state government and whatever would use that as
an opportunity to metal in China.
So I think the United States sort of does did it to itself
made it difficult for Americans to come to China.
But I mean, it's actually also easier than ever before.
Like it used to be you have to go to the the the consulate to
apply and then you have to go to back to the consulate to get the
visa. And you also had used to have to
book your hotels in advance and book your plane ticket in
advance. Now you don't have to do any of
that. Now you can apply online.
You don't need a travel itinerary, you don't need a
plan. You don't need any kind of weird
health check or anything. You just apply online.
If you get approved, you go to the embassy one time to get your
visa. So it's still easier for
Americans, but it's not just, like as easy for the other, you
know, dozens of countries that can just come to China whenever
they want. Yeah, yeah, but I, I, I, I just
recommend the people who do have the visa free privilege, you
know, take advantage of it. Why not, you know, just yeah to
visit. Totally.
And and then China is, is such a huge country.
It actually has a lot to offer in terms of sightseeing for for
traveler. Yeah, we're not sponsored by the
Chinese tourism board, by the way.
Yeah. But we're we're just speaking
from experience because I actually I'm go.
Ahead. Go ahead.
You go ahead. No, no, no.
I keep on interrupting you. You're my no.
No, no, OK, all right, fine. I, I was going to add to your
point about like there's a lot to see.
So you like city is great. Go to Shenzhen, right?
You want to see the robots, you want to see flying cars and all
that. Go to Shenzhen.
If you want to see like the desert, you can got the, you can
go to the Gobi Desert or the Taklamakan Desert, the sea of
death, you know, if that's your thing, if you want it rain
forest, you can go to Sichuan, which also has pandas, you know,
and it also the cities that light up like Christmas trees,
right? They're everywhere.
So whichever city you're going to, you're probably going to run
into that Qingdao, Wuhan, Changsha, Shenzhen, Shanghai,
even parts of downtown Beijing are like that now.
So you're going to find that wherever you go, you or you want
to go and you want to see traditional like Chinese
culture, You can go to like Xi'an or you can go to Dali and
Yunnan, or you actually want to go to Shangri-La.
Guess what, it exists. I actually been doing some
research on it. There's a city called Shangri-La
in you none. And I was like, oh, is this the
real Shangri-La? So I looked at the book that's
written like 1937 and the there's a couple movies and
they're actually talking about a place that in the local Tibetan
dialect. That's the name it's called like
the the Valley of the Moon and Sun.
And that's actually Shangri-La. That's the translation.
And so when they changed the name from from the Mandarin name
to Shangri-La, it was to reflect, yes, that there is this
Western obsession with this place called Shangri-La, but it
was actually also the moniker of the city that in the Tibetan
local dialect for the city. So it is actually Shangri-La.
So if you want to go to Shangri-La, it's here.
So like, I mean, there's so many different cool things to see.
There's amazing little villages you can stay in.
Like what is it called? Huangling village in Xiangxi.
It is paradiseic. You will not want to leave.
I, after I left, I just now, I don't think my life can ever be
as satisfying knowing that that place is there.
And I'm not like it's, there's so many places in China to see.
And then you got beaches, you know, you can go to Sanya, you,
you know, Sanya Island. And you also have that in Fuji,
and you also have a lot of that in Guangdong.
I mean, whatever kind of food you're into, you like spicy
food, Sichuan, Chongqing, where you're from, like there's so
many amazing places in China that whatever you're into, they
have it. Yeah, people need to understand
China is like US. It's a continental size country.
It it it it's has great variety and and it has a lot of
different cultural variations. People should, should, should
just come visit. Now, having said all of that,
all everything, now I want to pick your brain a little bit,
You know, what is your outlook for the future Sino American
relationship? Now, obviously both of us wanted
to see the relationship improve, but given the current
trajectory, where do you do you see in the aftermath of she
Trump meeting in Korea? You know, where do you think,
where do you think it's going? This is such a complex question
because I, I, I generally try not to tell the future, but I
also do this to all my guests. So I ask, I have, like you, all
these brilliant people like Warwick Powell and other
economists onto my show and I ask them the same thing
constantly. What I understand and what I
think is that the United States is in fact trying to provoke a
regional conflict in Asia. the United States is trying to use
Japan, the Philippines and other nations near China to create the
conditions for a regional conflict which would weaken Asia
and potentially continue to prop up the Western, you know, LED
order that's existed for the last several centuries and under
imperialism or whatever we want to call what's going on now, neo
colonialism, whatever it is. So, but I also think China is
really playing the long game here.
And China hasn't had a war like since 1979, a real full out war.
And that was one month. There have been some border
skirmishes here and there with India, with the Philippines and
stuff, but there hasn't been a major conflict.
China's really just playing it out.
If China can just wait 20 more years and not have any kind of
military, major military conflict with anyone, the West
will wither away. So we have our, I mean, not
wither away, but be right sized in the international community.
Because I mean, just look back in the 1990s, what major powers
were there in the world? It was the Europe, the United
States, maybe Japan. That's kind of it, that those
were the big boys on the chess board.
Today, it's not like that. I mean, this concept of
multipolarity is real. Even though they can't stop the
conflict in, in the Middle East, you know, the war crimes that
Israel's committing, there is still a multipolar world.
I mean, Southeast Asia, ASEAN is incredibly powerful in the in
today's world and, and Japan continues to be, although that
has its own economic problems. South Korea, China, India is
even starting to really rise up now.
There's a lot of development in some countries in Africa, the
Middle East, the Central Asia, South America, you know, it's
not the imperial LED world to some extent.
So if China really wants. To have the advantage.
China's economy is still growing.
And you know, everyone said, oh, China is going to grow at 4.2%.
Then it was upgraded to 4.6%. Then it was upgraded to 4.8%.
Now it's upgraded by Goldman Sachs at forecast to 5%.
I still think it's going to be 5.2.
I've been saying that the entire year from the beginning.
I'm right. And I mean, time has proven that
I'm right. And every year I've been more,
what's the word, bullish on China and every year I've been
proven correct because China really has this ambition to grow
at 4.7 GDP growth rate from 2020 to 2035 and it needs to maintain
at least 5% for the next few years in order to make that
happen. That's part of the common
prosperity campaign. When China says we're doing
something, they mean that's what's going to happen.
All of their five year plans and 10 year plans, they always come
to fruition because China will, you know, move the gears around
it's a planned economy. You know, a lot of it is you
have a, you have a free economy, you have a vibrant market
economy, but you also have a planned economy working in
tandem. And when China says we're going
to double GDP from 2020 to 2035, GDP for the entire country by
growing at 4.7% every year, that means it's going to happen.
So what my point is in, in this context, the fact that China is
growing at 5%, maybe more this year and probably at least 4.7
or 4.8, I think it's going to be more like 4.9 next year, means
that the United States economy is still only growing at about
around 2%. So China's growing at more than
double the United States and a lot of other Western allies of
the United States and Eastern allies are in decline and
they're actually economies are contracting or close to
contracting, are barely growing at all and they're
financialized. So that really means it probably
is contracting in their real economies.
So if China wants to, you know, rejoin all of its provinces, it
would be much easier to do that through diplomacy and waiting
because if a regional conflict occurs, the United States goal
will be to use a Ukraine like situation to destroy not just
China, but all of his allies over here too. the United States
isn't thinking like, hey, we're going to back you Japan, you're
going to be more powerful. the United States really and the
realpolitik secret circles are thinking we'll use Japan and
China to destroy each other and then we'll be able to walk
through and take over everything in Asia.
So this is not in the interest of Japan.
It's not in the interest of the Philippines.
It's not in the interest of China.
All the region has to do, the most prosperous region, region,
the most peaceful region in the world and has been for decades,
is stay peaceful for the next decade or two.
And all of the European powers in the United States will just
become less relevant. And I think that is the play
that they should go. But what's going to happen?
I can't answer that question. What options are on the table?
You know, like it can there be a major conflict?
the United States might try to create false flags and all of
these, you know, situations to create conflict.
So it's possible that that could happen.
But really all China needs to do is what it's doing now.
Just sit back, watch the West slowly become less relevant.
So I mean, no one can tell the future, but you can see what
what's on the table, what might happen.
Yeah, I I think I agree with you.
The time time is on China's side.
You know, China can afford to wait out US, you know, given the
US current trajectory, it's besetted by a lot of domestic
problems and, and even and in the I think we are slowly
finally reaching a boiling point, you know, like maybe not
boiling over yet, but we're getting there.
You know, you have seen, you know, even Trump's own support
base, MAGA is essentially having a civil war right now.
So China just need to, you know, do what China does best, which
is to grow its own prosperity. By doing so, China's relative
strength will strengthen year after year vis A vis United
States. And, and so far, I think China
is on the on the right path. I don't think China will be very
easily baited into a war in East Asia because China, you know,
Chinese leadership, not, they're not stupid, right?
They, they, they understand what the intentions of the Washington
is. And you know, they, they, they
have been, and they have a long tradition of strategic heritage
that, you know, they, they thousands of years.
They, they have, you know, they, they, they see, they have seen
the, the playbook, you know, they, so, so I, I, I, I, I, I'm
not too worried about a major war breaking out in East Asia,
at least in the immediate future, you know, in 20 years,
who knows? But I, I think for next 5-10
years, I, you know, I think we're just going to witnessing
more of the same, which is the steady progress of China itself,
a more regional integration China with, particularly with
ASEAN countries, you know, as, as a regional supply chain
getting further integrated, you know, tie anchored with the
Chinese market in the, in the middle.
I think, I think that that's, that's what's going to happen.
I mean, this is the whole point of China building the Belden Rd.
project, right? I mean, it's to build global
connectivity points, but all these connected points all
connects to China, and it makes China the center of this new
network power. This is something that US has
been trying to sabotage, but with without much success
because ultimately China is bringing money to the table and
US is not offering the alternatives.
You know, like the US is like, OK, the best I can do is
military bases and some Typhoon missiles.
But but people, but countries, yeah, globally needs development
and, and, and infrastructure much more.
So, you know, so, so China is winning on that front.
So I, I, I, I, I agree with your assessment.
And what but, but, but, but, but back to the China, US, China
relationship though. Like do you think there could be
a return quote UN quote to normalcy sometimes in the
future? You know, I have to think, I
have to say I, I used to be less optimistic than am I?
I am now. There's a man teaches at
Princeton University, assistant professor.
His name is Kyle Chan. And the fact that he even works
at the Rand Corporation gives me hope because this man, he really
wants. Yeah.
Just the fact that he works there at all makes me think, oh,
there are sane people in the echo chamber, you know, like
Mitch Presnick teaches at Harvard and Kyle Chan teaches at
Princeton University. And there's a few other, you
know, sane people in the United States who are in positions to
influence policy. Unfortunately, none of them are
in in politics. You know, these are real
academic people. They're just studying the
numbers and the economy and how it can work that, you know, no
offense. I'm not trying to insult them.
I'm trying to compliment them. They are nerds.
So they, you know, they're just people who are erudite and read
a lot and study a lot and they're like, this is the best
possible future. Let's go that direction.
And both of these gentlemen and other people like them want to
see better economic integration, which would be in the which
would be advantageous to the United States.
For example, there is a factory in Ohio that was created with a
Chinese company called Lomi. And it's, I can't remember the,
the, the American name of the company, but they make solar
panels and they hired US workers using Chinese technology with
Chinese and American investment and a joint venture to make
solar by Americans in America for America.
And that is the kind of thing that the United States could
benefit from. You know what, I, I, I actually
really think this, you know, I'm, I'm just saying hope
optimistically, we could see greater economic integration.
And you know, at, at there's some point Japanese factories
came to the United States and it was, it was great for the United
States. It created a lot of jobs.
And then we, we're at the point where Chinese technology is the
best in the world. And I know there are people who
disagree with that. They're wrong.
So if we could get Chinese technology built in America by
Americans for America, that would be advantageous for the
United States because it's not just buying products make made
in China, which is also advantageous for the United
States because cheap goods like. So actually there are a lot of
ways that the United States and China complement one another.
the United States is a highly financialized institution and
the dollar remains pre eminent for now.
So as the United, as long as the United States wants to continue
to buy products from China, it can.
And that's to the advantage of US consumers.
And building factories in the United States isn't working
without China. But guess what?
If China came in, China are the world experts on how to build
factories. So like we could build
factories. I mean, if it's about like, oh,
we don't want them to own land or oh, we don't want them too
close to US base, fine. Why can't we have special
economic zones? That's what we should have.
We should have two or three special economic zones near
ports in the United States, not just for China, for any
companies around the world who want to come and hire American
workers to make things in America, for America, or even
for export. I guarantee you Chinese
companies would line up for that.
There would be tons of investment.
We'd be talking about 10s of billions of dollars being poured
into the United States year after year after year after year
after year to build in the United States and hire American
workers. You know, so there are these
voices who say things like this. I hope that's what happens.
But unfortunately, America is a game of political football and
whoever's making the decisions isn't making the decisions for
very long. And so I'm not really.
I don't know what the United States is gonna do.
Is Trump. Are Trump and XI in April when
they meet in China, gonna make a better deal?
I think so. My own feeling is that Trump is
the kind of person who wants to be a winner, and that's how he
sees himself. He sees himself as a winner.
And if he can sit down, the two most powerful leaders in the
world can sit down and make a deal that's advantageous for
both countries. Trump wants to walk out of China
saying, oh, my best friend, President Xi and I just made
this great deal. It's going to be great for
America. And it can't just be on paper.
He needs a win because the trade war has been going so badly for
the United States. So if Trump could walk out of
Beijing with a deal that helps America, I think he wants to do
that. So hopefully Besant is setting
the, you know, situation up for that.
Unfortunately, you have people like Rubio who are in the in the
administration and they are very hawkish on China.
So it's a mixed bag really. Yeah, I think I, I don't think
the, the US will change its trajectory easily.
I mean, I, I'm, but I, I agree with you.
There is a little bit of vibe shift already.
You are seeing some part of the elite are starting to recognize
that China is a peer that cannot be pushed around anymore.
And I think that maybe, maybe we'll take a whole generation
for United States to go through the, you know, whatever it needs
to go through to resolve its own domestic problems.
Because a lot of these blaming China, anti China stuff come
from ultimately the own, the EU s s own weakness, The, the, the,
the, the, the domestic structural problems, the real
structural problem that's affecting U.S. economy.
And I, I think as long as these won't be resolved, there will
always be tensions in the US China relationship.
And, you know, I expect this might, it might take a whole
generation to fix United States. You know, like, like this is a
long term project. It's not going to be done in
next four years or, or, or five years or even 10 years.
This could usually be like a 25 years, 30-40 year project to fix
United States. And, and, and so, so if that
does happen, I think there could be, you know, US and China can
be back on right footing, so to speak, to have a normal
relationship between normal countries.
You know, one of the problem is I think US is not a normal
country right now. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it
needs, it's needs to cure of its sickness.
And, and once that happens, you can deal with China on a more
confident, more confident place. And, you know, a lot, lot of the
lot of these anger, anxiety and fear is really derived from
ultimately the American weakness.
I think, you know, once that that that thing is getting
resolved, I think two countries will be fine.
So I, I, I, I unfortunately, I think China is the rational
player here and and China has been, you know, playing this
game very patiently, just continue to grow its own
strength. Now China's not seeking to you
replace United States as a global hedge amount as many
people fear that China just want to build a better China be the
best China that that China can be.
States could learn from China. You know, if if US just invest
on itself, focus on its internal development, you know, you will
being a much healthier place and, and you know, you know, if
you really, really us really want to compete with China, it
needs to fix itself. It needs to look internally, not
not looking to try to handicap China's progress.
You know, like the Tonya Harden approach of recapping your
competitor. But but but really focus on your
own skills sets to to develop your invest in your home, own
human capital. And then, you know, then there
will be more a chance or equal chance, But you know, you, you,
you require people to take the long approach, the long term
approach. You know, one of the
unfortunately one of the problem in the US is like, everything is
kind of very short term oriented, right?
So all about quarterly earning reports and the next election
cycle. So that's one of the thing that
needs to be ironed out as well. So I I expect this to be a long
term generational project to fix USI think, I think once that's
done, the US and China can have a healthy, normal relationship.
Yeah, I think that's a really good point.
I mean, I also think that, you know, the UK used to was
formerly the world power. The United States became the
world power following that cycle.
And what's really interesting is about the UK was special in that
it was sort of like, oh, you're going to be the new real world
power. You're my best buddy.
And, you know, I think that was an interesting strategy.
I think the United States has an interesting opportunity to see
if, you know, it's obvious to anyone who actually knows the
facts, not the people who are just making stuff up and lying
about the reality of the situation, that China is going
to be the major economy for the next century.
So if the United States really wants to benefit and, you know,
the short, mid and long term, hitching its boat to the China
is actually a really good idea. I Yeah, I hope, I hope you know
from. From your words to to the God's
mouth, you know, I hope, I hope some people in Washington, you
know, can finally get come to their senses, you know?
Maybe. Maybe.
If anybody's watching our show, make sure people take Jason's
words to the relevant people. But really, I, I think I, I, you
know, 100% agree with you. You know, you're fascinated.
Go ahead. Yeah.
No. No, I was just going to say it's
really interesting. That the United States has
chosen this really bizarre framework because I think this
has to do with game theory. Honestly, I think I'm gonna
blame game theory. Like the whole idea in the West
is that everything is a game. Everyone wants to win and this
is the objectives. And I think that, you know,
we've you know, John Mearsheimer argument that's been going
around, right? The John.
Mearsheimer China wants to rule the world.
Because everyone wants to rule the world.
This is not a Tears For Fears song, guys.
This is the world. And China has 1000 years.
Jeffrey Sachs just pointed out China has 1000 years of not
invading its neighbors, you know, 10 centuries of not
invading its neighbors. And then, you know, actually
China is actually an introvert for a lot of that.
It's like, we don't want to even want to trade with you.
You know, when the trade ambassador showed up to China,
China was like, you know, we're just not into that right now.
Like we're doing our own thing. China is not eager to take over
the world. You know, China, like you said,
wants to develop itself and make itself very prosperous.
That's its goal. That is its goal.
So what we need to do is rethink in DC and, you know, and
Langley, what is China's goal? China is China's goal is not
world domination. China's goal is to become the
most, you know, prosperous version of itself that it can be
and fulfill, you know, thousands of years of that goal of having
everyone be really prosperous and successful.
And the idea that the United States is surrounding China with
all these bases and China's going to break out any moment is
kind of crazy. Really.
It's like, you know, the bully at school.
School is like that kid is working out.
They're going to become the next bully.
Everyone we're going to form a gang and surround them and
they're just working out. It's like just because they're
working out doesn't mean they want to fight.
Like it's, it's, it's really kind of crazy.
Yeah. I I think.
I think maybe hopefully they can't get into their heads that
United States does not have to be a global hedge fund to be a
successful country because USUS has US is very secure.
It has two oceans as its borders.
You know it, it's not, it's not facing any imminent invasions
threat from anyone. And so it, it can't afford to
develop itself. And, and you know, like, like,
like as this example that you gave UK, it gave up its empire.
But the British people, people are living far better today than
they were under the British imperial days.
You know, that can still happen that that can still happen for
for Americans, you know, it's still a real possibility for
United States. It just require you to give up
this kind of 0 sum mindset. And there's this kind of the the
world domination mental bug, But you know, that will take time.
That will take time. So hopefully, hopefully we'll,
we'll we'll we'll be we'll still be around to win this change.
But I, I really enjoy having this conversation with you,
Jason. Likewise, you know, we could
yeah, then we could talk about this for for hours.
But but anyway, this is an ongoing story still evolving.
And you know, we'll probably, I would like to have invite you
back in the future, you know, probably before the XI Trump
visit. In Beijing and and just to to
kind of geek out on this because US China relationship really is
the most important bilateral relationship in the world right
now and and and for the future so you know it's you know and
this is I can geek out geek out on this for hours but it's been
fun for people who want to follow you Jason where would
they go well if you're on X it's.
Shengguan Tia one that's going to be difficult to to find.
Yeah. Or just spell if you're
American. But if you just want to find my
podcast, you can find the Bridge to China podcast and type in the
Bridge to China podcast and Google will pop right up.
That's a great name, by the way. And I thank you, thank you for
making the time to to, to be on my show.
We'd love to have you back on our podcast, too.
So we'll be reaching out as well, anytime, any time.
I love to talk, man. If you did notice, so for for
people who've been watching. The show thank you for.
Tuning in until next time, bye bye.