Welcome to the Green Frost Podcast.
Today's guest is Veronica Bjorkman, destination manager at
the Birka World Heritage Site. So, Veronica, welcome to our
longhouse. Thank you.
Great to have you here finally. Yes, yes, yes.
So we'll just dive right into it because you live on Bjorka, the
island where the Viking city of Birka is located, and you're the
destination manager of the Birka World Heritage Museum and all
that stuff. So but how, how long is the
drive from there to here? Because, I mean, it's not that
far as the bird flies, but it takes a little, a little while,
does it? Yes, it does.
It's a lot of car ferries and boat transports and yeah, yeah.
So it's a little bit. It's not just straight driving.
That's that's for sure. No, but yeah, it's but is it, is
it your first time here in Carlstone?
Actually, yes, in the city centre anyways.
OK. Where have you been otherwise?
Yeah, a little bit outside. My sister lives there.
Oh, OK, OK. What do you, what do you think?
It's a nice little town, Yeah. Yeah, it's feels like a big town
in a small shell or something. Yes, yes, I have to apologise to
all my friends here in Coast Environment for calling it a
little town. But yes, I'm, I'm as you, I grew
up in Stockholm. So compared to Stockholm, it is
a little town, yeah. But it's nice and the sun will
just shine here, so. They say they say it does, yes.
And in a way it's true. Not today, though,
unfortunately, But yeah, it's, it's, I didn't.
I thought it was kind of misty, at least when I drove in, but.
Immediately when you met me, the sun was shining.
Oh, OK. I see where you're going with
this. All right, that's true.
That's true, but that's not why you're here to talk about
Colster, because a large part of your life or daily life is about
Vikings. So how did your interest in
Vikings in the Viking Age start in the first place?
It started when I was really young.
I always been interested in history and then it really
bloomed, I think in the end of the 90s when I was living in
Strangeness Commune on an island called Siela, which have around
26 runic stones. Oh really?
Oh. And they get the, the municipal
did and asked us to, to do something that put this little
island on the map. And we decided to do a Viking
market and a Viking festival. So then I start to look around
and what we could do and talk to reenactment groups and join them
on other markets and just fell in love with all the reenactment
things and. So when when was this?
It was 2001 or two, I think. So we had the first.
Yeah, we had the first festival 2003 three.
So that's when your interest started.
So you weren't interested in Vikings before that or?
You. Yeah, yeah, I always been
interested in in history and all the like, the sagas and all
thing around that. So history has always been a big
subject in my life, but not like work with a professional or so.
And I wanted to be an archaeologist when I was a
child. But then people say that, OK,
that's not the good thing if you want to earn money, but I've.
Heard similar similars. Yeah, yeah.
So we started this festival. It's called Stella Holman
Speaking a festival. And it was really, really fun
and met a lot of new friends and started with enactment.
And then I decided that I want to change the direction in my
professional life. So I started to study in the
university in Stockholm and I will study history,
archaeologli, pedagogic things. And then I have quick work.
So I need to have a job during the summer.
And then I found out that they were hiring guides on beer cap.
Oh, OK. So I start work there as a guide
and that was 2008 I. See no see, because beer keys is
very like amazing. We're going to talk more about
that. But I I was actually curious
about the the Viking Festival that at Stellar is is is it
still around? Yeah, it is.
So every year, the first weekend of July, they have this festival
and it's really, really nice. It's it's like a family
festival, but there's a lot of reenactment groups with children
coming and it's a lot of tourists that come with children
and family and they have like big park for kid activities and
like archery and battle shows and funny game shows and yeah,
it's really nice. All right, that's that sounds
amazing actually. That's like a festival that kind
of flew under my radar for sure for a long time.
And I, I actually, I grew up not far from stringness.
Yeah, so, and I know Stellar Holleman, not well, but I know
the island, obviously. So yeah, that was into.
Maybe I have to go there sometime.
Yes, we can meet up there. Have a beer.
And that would be nice. That would be very nice.
But what what fascinates you so much about Vikings, SO and the
Viking Age? I think it's that they they were
brave and they were like sailing over the sea and they didn't
really know what they were supposed to meet.
And I love crafts and they were really, really good Craftsman.
And it's, it's like something mysterious and yeah, so it's,
it's an hour of, of interesting things.
I think I agree with you a little bit there because, I
mean, obviously the the adventure aspect of the Viking
Age is absolutely insane. I mean, crossing the Atlantic in
an open ship, yeah. It's just like, imagine doing
that today, like being out there like no land inside for weeks
and you're in an open ship. Like there's nothing shielding
you from the environment that is that's, that's the right stuff.
Yeah. And they must been so brave and
full of self confident and like, yeah.
And I I actually patrioted a bit like, worse than going to the
moon. Like when when they did the like
going to the moon, at least they knew that where they were going.
Yeah. And that they were aiming for
something. But just going into the unknown
like that, it's crazy. Yeah.
So yeah, I mean, and as you said, the the arts of the the
Viking Age is absolutely beautiful.
It's so beautiful and the crafts and the designs is so beautiful
and also like the, the sagas and the the, the myths and the gods
and yeah, it's really, really fascinating.
It is. It is so burka.
Burka obviously is known for its thousands of burial mounds,
prominent graves, important finds, and obviously the city
and the Garrison. But when in history did burka
flourish? Except from during the Viking
Age. Well, I mean, I guess it is
during the Viking Age, that's when it started.
But like like what time period during the Viking Age was was
like the. In in the middle of the 700 when
they have done excavation on the black Gareth that you call the
town area. Excuse me?
Yeah. And they come deepest down in
the culture layer. They find out that they are
around 750 something. So that's like when it started?
Yeah, in a way. So how how long is the history
of burqa? Yeah, the history of course is
longer because we have Bronze Age graves and stuff on the
island. But I think that like the town
was built like 750 and the history is until today actually.
But if you mean was the town was active it's around 900 and 79175
when Baker was like attacked and then moved very very fast.
Oh wow, so so how many people live there?
Some smart clever person have count out that it maybe was
around 1000 people living there all year round in the town area.
OK. And, and who were these people?
I mean, obviously for for the time, a rather big settlement.
Yeah, it was. And I think I think it was craft
man and even maybe slaves that was living there all year round.
When they did excavate the the, the part of the town area, they
found out that the, the town were built by plots, small
similar plots. And they could see that the,
the, the size of the plots, they have been like constant from the
beginning till the end. And that showed that somebody
had controlled of it. Somebody decided which one could
have their their craft there or their trading or something.
So this is my opinion, but I think that they were maybe rich
farmers or traders around Lake Milan area that was given plots
on the town to by the king or something and they could like do
they their business there. But I don't think that they
there was this rich farmers that was standing there by the by the
fortune or something. They have people hired to do the
craft for them, I think. So so.
So they lived on the nice long house somewhere around.
And then they travelled to Burka to do their business and
they'll. So they only had like a little,
Yeah. Like, almost like a shop, yeah.
Yeah, I think so. It's a workshop.
But does that mean that, I mean, obviously it it was a huge
trading spot in like what's a, a hub basically where a lot of
people came to to trade. That must have meant that meant
that there were other what, What do we know about the facilities
that were actually like, I mean, there, if so many people gather
that are not living there, there's got to be some, I don't
know, restaurants, Yeah. Places to stay?
Yeah. And we don't know so much
because it's just a very, very small piece of the town area
that is excavated. It's 3 plots that have been
excavated and then they also have had a excavation in the the
sea bottom outside with the divers that have been excavating
on the sea bottom. And they found that it's been
like a big activity around the harbour and they found a lot of
like broken spoons, plates and things.
So yeah, one of them said to me doing the excavation that wow,
maybe it could have been like bar or in here close and they
have just throw everything out from from the yeah, the garbage
into the lake. So.
It's interesting that it survives though.
But Lake Merlion has a very special climate for for that,
isn't that right? Yeah, and a very special clay,
Yes, so they have, we have the blue clay and the blue clay is
very fat and lack of oxygen. So the things get like preserved
in, in the clay and it's crazy. Yeah, it's totally crazy.
I I was there once when they come up with a big like lump of
clay and said, oh, I think I found something.
And it start to pour water on on it and it start to smell tar.
And they found like a big plump of linen fabric that was filled
up tar and it was wrapped around a wooden stick and it still
smells tar like 1000 years after.
It's crazy. So it's something that used to
like a tar, a boat, where there's something that just.
Probably or maybe as a torch, I don't know.
Or or like pull tar on the boat. I don't know what I used it for
but. That's, that's, that's so cool
because it's like 1000 years and it's like was thrown in
yesterday. Yeah, and it's crazy.
And we've seen the exhibition now in Historical Museum in
Stockholm. So you can go and.
Oh, I have to do that. You can smell it hard.
Cool. So I mean, obviously Burke had a
like a like a 200 year history. So how important was Birke
during the Viking Age and and why was it so important?
I think that it was like a very important place because it was
like western outpost from the Silk Road.
So and you could, you can see that BACA grows quite fast.
So it was of course much smaller in the in the beginning in the
middle of the 700 and and then it grow very quickly in the
middle of the 800. You can also see the the in the
graves or also that they are a lot of items from the east.
So yeah, I think it was very important.
And also I think that it was like like you said before, like
a hub that the people were meeting there and then they
trade with the Sapmi people from the North and by fur from them
that they were like preparing in beer can.
Then they exported to the Arabic world and it was very well, very
exclusive with that kind of furs, and they also imported
material for making iron from the Dalana area, so.
Yeah, because Sweden had a or what is today Sweden obviously,
but Scandinavian general, they had some very specific like fur
is one thing that the lot of export with fur.
But do we know what they imported them from like that
came the other way, the other way.
What do they trade with? Do we know?
Yes, silver, of course, there we found a lot of Arabic coins and
silver things and of course like honey and herbs and that kind of
things and silk. Oh, of course.
Of course, so they have found traces from of silk in birka
from China and India, so. It's really crazy.
And also, well, this was not on Birka, obviously, but the Buddha
statue. Yeah, that.
Where was that? That's hell yeah.
Hell yeah. Yes, yeah.
That's that's where I is. Yeah.
That's yeah. That's fantastic in a many ways.
Yeah, that. That history is a history of
itself. The Buddha statue, it's really
cool, yeah. So let's talk about the, the
city and the, the fortress and the Garrison.
So what was the layout of of the city?
How how would you describe it? You you said like there, there
was like very specific size plots, but like, can you
describe it a little bit more? Yeah.
I think the everything started in the harbour because the
harbour was of course a very, very important place when you're
on an island. And then out from the the
harbour, the town was growing in like some feather formation or
something with straight roads that goes from the harbour over
the town and then around it was a town Rampart built.
And I think that the like the town rampart was not so much As
for protection. I think it's just more like
economical and radical fence more than for protection.
OK, because there are like from the Vita Anskari, the the
chronicle about the first missionary Anskari in them that
tell about an attack on Beerka when 40 Danish Viking ships are
laying outside and they threaten to to attack and burn the town.
And then they say that all the 1000 people that was living in
Burka was running up in the hill Fort and they stayed there for
three days so. Yeah, because the, the hill
Fort, if if you visit Burka, it's, it's a, it's a, it's
actually, it's quite a, a big hill where you can still see
the, the, the foundation of the wall.
Yeah, even today. So how, how important was the
fortress to fend off attacks? And I mean, would you, would you
say it would be equivalent to like a medieval fortress or how
would how would you categorize it?
No, it's not like a medieval fortress.
It's a, a big rampart that is going like around this small
mountain. So the mountain was going very
deep in directly into the sea on one side.
And then they have built like the rampart around and it was I,
I don't remember the measurement like now, but it's quite big
hill Fort. And on top they have like a
wooden rampart. So and they have like 3 gates
into the to the Fort. OK, so you said that the Danish
lay siege. Yeah, damn Danes.
But yeah, so they're lazy. But how how do we know anything
else about like how common attacks were at the Because
obviously if you know anything about Vikings is that they
raided and they often fought wars against each other.
And obviously Bika being a major trading spot, it would have been
a rich place to plunder, I would assume.
So do we know how much this was actually a place that then where
there were attacks and? Yeah, in excavations you can see
that is being attacked. For example, they had excavated
a a piece of the hill Fort rampart in the beginning of the
2000s I think, and they could see that the the rampart have
been burned down several times, but they have like build it up
stronger and stronger until the last one when it was like burnt
down and never built up again. OK.
Yeah. So it's it, it was quite common
that I would assume during these 200 years?
Yeah, I think so. Yeah.
So the Garrison obviously is was situated that was situated
outside the the the fortress, right.
Can you tell us about the Garrison and the guards that
that man did? Who were they?
I think they were hired. I think they were professional
and from the excavations of the Garrison we know that they were
around 4050 warriors that was working there for Protect Big
Cap and a lot of items also show links to the east and items that
they found during the excavation there.
So, So what kind of items and and how, how do we know that
they are from the East? Would that mean that it's person
who's been to the East or it's actually people from the East
that that that? It's hard to know the things can
have come to be a government by trading.
It could be people that are from that area and it could also be
people that been a part of the ruse groups so.
Because the Ruse obviously were originally well, Vikings from
Sweden connected to Ruse log and if if I'm not mistaken.
Or at least they made that etymology connection, I think.
Yeah, I think it's like in some old things that they say that
ruse is called ruse because they come from Ruhrich came from and
he come from Ruhs Lager. But that is not.
It's not sure. It's not a like.
It's a theory maybe. It's a theory more I also read
something that rules mean rowing and that that it is meant like
the the guy that was rowing. Makes sense because Vikings did
a lot of rowing for sure. Yeah.
All right, let's maybe move away from that bit.
But like, so you would say that in many ways, in many ways, BDK
was a multinational community. And, but, and obviously a lot of
prominent people lived in the city or used the city or had
their business in the city. And we found some of their, you
found some of their graves. And, but three of them is a part
of the museum exhibit at the at Berka.
So can, can you tell us a little bit about those 3 characters?
Characters, Yes. Good work.
We was we had opportunity to to make a new exhibition and we
wanted to show the the Viking life.
And so we decided to reconstruct 3 graves from three different
centuries. So we chose one grave from from
the middle of the seven hundreds when Baker was in the baby.
But baby start. Yeah, yeah.
In the beginning, early days, early days.
So we wanted to also because most graves zombie are excavated
during the 1800s and it's very few that is excavated during
modern times. So we wanted to have one of
these graves. So we chose the the Moose man.
Oh yeah, that's an interesting character.
Can you tell us about the Moose man?
The moose man, he was in around his 60s and he is is buried very
normal. He's laying on his back.
He has Spears and arrows and a shield that cover his body so
everything is normal there, but then it's another man laying on
top of him in a very strange position, like he was just
falling down in the grave and he's been decapitated and his
one of his foot is missing. Oh wow, and what does that mean?
Yeah. What does that mean?
We don't really know. Probably he's been sacrificed
down in the grave and with help of DNA and they could see that
both of them are from the Lake Milan area.
So they are local people, both of them.
But the younger man has been travelling around more and is
seeded by this isotope analysis they can do on the teeth.
And he's also very strong, especially in his upper body.
So maybe it's he's in very early Viking.
Oh really? Maybe he was in Sarima in.
The yeah, maybe. The time is.
It's strange though, if he's a younger man, like, like
physically strong like. So what do we know about the
sacrifices? Not much.
No, not much. We know that sometimes that it's
more than one person that is in the graves.
We also know it's from the sagas and from, for example, the
Ibfatlan texts that describe like the all the crazy things
that happen around. Yeah, the funeral.
Yeah, he describes the the the funeral of a Chieftain.
Yeah. And how they sacrifice a female
slave, I think connected to this.
And it's, it's, it's a really gruesome story.
Yeah, it is. It's really and there's a lot of
strange things going on. Very strange, Yeah.
But I was also curious to what, what what gave this particular
character the his name? The Moose man.
Yeah, because he's had big, big moose horn.
OK, just goes. By his head.
Like an antler. Yeah, yeah, Antler, yeah, of
course, yeah. Oh wow, so just one.
Yeah, just one. OK.
Interesting. Yeah, that's really interesting.
And I I think they never found anything like it before.
But that's going to be weird though, because I mean, we have
lots of moods and. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, and they're majestic animals.
You would assume it would be well.
Yeah. And I also think that they maybe
because they have this religion, that they were a lot of animals
in the religion. And maybe they also like think
as they themselves as animal. You have the bird circus.
They all had near so that that could be one thing.
And the other thing can mean maybe he was a hunter.
He had like his spear and and the the arrow was more like
hunting tools than warrior tools, But they could of course
use them from build. Yeah, still at the shield.
So. Of course that's yeah, that's so
interesting. But what about the other two
then? So now we had decided that we
have a a typical male grave, but not typical because it was the
the other man in something. But then we also wanted to have
a typical female grave. So for the 8 hundreds, we choose
typical female grave and we chose that one because it was a
lot of fabric left in it, so we could look more into the fabric
and reconstruct the clothes a little bit easier.
Yeah. And the third grave.
Sorry, does she has? Does she have a special name?
Like, no, we call her the the lady with the green beaker, OK?
Because she had a very, very beautiful green big glass in her
grave. Oh really?
Yeah. Oh, obviously not.
Not intact though, right? Yeah, it was intact.
It was intact. Yeah.
Wow. And it's very, very special.
It's looks like something that your mother have in like a vase
during a flowers in during the 70s or something.
It's very green, deep green and a lot of bubbles.
That's that's amazing actually. Glass obviously was like a very
expensive commodity back in those days.
So that must mean that she was a very prominent person I assume.
Yeah, yeah, probably she was, yeah.
Crazy. So is there anything else that's
that really sets this grave apart?
Apart from the beaker. Some things shows that maybe she
was working with trading and yeah, but it's yeah, it's a nice
grave and it's beautiful. Like Tuttle brochures and think
so. Yeah, OK.
It's a typical female grave. Yeah, all right.
And then we have the third grave you're going to tell us about.
Yeah. And then we actually didn't have
any opportunity to choose a grave from the 9 hundreds
because we had to take the the possible female warrior, OK,
because we get so many questions about her and people want to
read about it and they want to visit the grave and they want to
like know more about. And, and it was a spectacular
grave in so many ways, not not only because it it turned out
that the body barrier was I belong to a female, but also
because of what was in it. Right.
Yeah. So can you, can you describe the
grave and the layout of the grave?
Because it's it's crazy in many ways.
Yeah, it's a it's a Champ grave and it's excavated in the end of
the 1800s by Yalma Stolpe and he excavated around 1200 graves on
Birka. And when he come to the place,
it was like a very big rock and it was I think 3M high or
something. So he realized that this is
something special I under there and it's also very special
place. It's just like between the
Garrison, the town and the king side on who Gordon and everybody
that was sailing through there could see this big rock, so he
blow it up with dynamite. As you would.
And he start to excavate and he found the shame grave that was
filled with weapons like 2 Spears, sword, axes, weapon,
knife, 2 Shields. So I think they never found so
many weapons in the grey from the Viking age before.
That's fantastic. And then she also have like two
horses, 1 stallion and one mare. And she have a neo flat TfL game
pieces. Like this one.
Like this one, Exactly like this one.
I've seen that before. And yeah, so it became the like
the powerful Viking warrior grave from Pirika.
So you have this exhibit, like this exhibit at the museum, and
I actually been there and it's, it's a, it's a very interesting
and lovely exhibition, I think. Yeah, so all like the the real
item from the grave is not at Pirika Museum, it's in the
Historical Museum in Stockholm. Yes, but we have done
reconstructions of everything by help from very very good
craftsmans. Yeah, it's it's it's a well
worth a visit anyways. I mean, just to see what it
would look, would would have looked like.
Yeah, at the time, which is I think is fascinating.
But obviously not everyone on Burke got like a a massive grave
like these three. No.
And as we already mentioned, there are many grave mounds on
the island. It's I think we talked once and
you called it a bit of a like a necropolis, but like how many,
how many mounds are there on Beca do we know?
Actually, not exactly because a lot of them have been like
plotted away during history after the Baker was abandoned,
but I think we have like 3000 graves that are counted in some
way and then probably maybe 1000 more so around maybe 4000
graves. That's.
A lot of graves, yeah. I mean, compared to the
population, that seems like a lot of graves.
Why? Why?
Why would there be so many graves there?
Yeah, it's really hard to to know exactly.
And it's also like very much different kind of graves.
So it's the mounds that are cremated and there are like just
mounds. It's round shaped, 4 sided, 3
sided boat shaped graves. There are chamber graves, there
are chest graves, there are Christian chest graves.
So there are flat graves. Yeah.
It's so crazy. And and it's need more.
We need more science to like find out.
So how, Why? How, how, how many?
You said that that about 1200 was excavated, grades was
excavated. Yeah, yeah.
So how many, how many in total have been excavated?
Of these 3000? Roughly 3000.
Yeah, it's the. It's the same amount, around 12.
100, that's yeah, OK. Because Yanmar Stolpe was
excavating most during the 1800s.
And I, I don't know, but I, I think I only know about 3 graves
that have been excavated in modern times and two of them
just by accident because they were planning to excavate
something else. And they find out that wow, this
is a grave here too. And one of them is the Moose
man. OK, that makes sense.
Yeah. Because the plan there was to
excavate the longhouse and then his grave was just under the the
door. Under the door, Yeah.
That's I wonder like that makes you wonder if that was
intentional. Yeah, or maybe it was like 100
years or something like between. Somebody forgot, but it's like
the a door a very it's a very specific thing of the house
isn't. It.
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, to put that straight over
the grave, it it seems like it might.
Well, you know, you can only speculate I guess.
Yeah. But OK, so which prominent
graves besides these, the the three ones that we already
talked about, do you find most exciting?
Because you, you probably have an insight and, and, and well,
any grave actually that that has been excavated that, that you
know about which, which one do you find is the most exciting at
Burka? They are a lot of them.
I think the the great BG 750, it's very, very beautiful
because it's very, very nice. Beautiful item from it.
But it also include both female and male things.
So that is really nice. So is it one or two or is it
just one person buried that? Probably 2, like both a male and
a female, but I think it's very, it's not so much bone in the
grave, I think, but and that is also one of the graves that are
excavated again in modern times, I think around 2014 or
something. So Yalmer Stolpa escavated first
and then the Historical Museum in Stockholm wanted to find out
what he maybe have missed in when he excavated and and how
much he excavated and so on. So they opened the grave again.
Oh, I see, I see. So is that common that they do
that? No, I think it's the only one I
know. Oh.
Really about. So is there a reason why they
why they did that? Like, I mean, obviously they
wanted to see, but they why were they their interest piqued?
I think it was to to find out how how much he like left and
yeah, more to shake like OK, how was the the science doing the
1800s and was they just out there to find silver and fancy
things or. So they've maybe just picked
this because it was a good example grave to to re examine.
OK, I understand that's that kind of makes sense.
So I mean, there are thousands of like defining fines from
burka everything from you mentioned, like weapons and
jewellery, but also, as you said, like to everyday objects
and like like wooden spoons and tools and and even fabrics you
mentioned. But do you have any personal
favorite find that that you've seen yourself or that that
you've you know know of from burka?
It's a lot of them, but I, I really like the, the, the bigger
dragon because when Yalmer Stope was excavating in the 1800s, he
found the mould of this dragon and it's very, very sharp.
So you can really see the, the sign of it.
And then when the the University of Stockholm was excavating in,
I don't know, but in the 2012 or something like Round Eye, they
found the the actual dragon. Oh.
So if you think about that, OK, it's like 2, maybe 2% percent of
Berka that is excavated. And how is this?
Yeah. And how many more is there?
And what is the thing with this dragon?
Was it the symbol of the king? Was it the symbol of Beerka?
Because if you think of the like the the Falcon from the ruse or
things. So yeah, it's it's a very good
thing to fantasy. Yeah, I mean, Dragons are like,
like so special and and it's fascinating that they're so
common in different, like mythology across the world in
many ways. So I, I can, I can see how that
would be a very, very, very interesting find.
Yeah, I haven't actually seen that myself.
I'm, I'm, I have to look that up that, that sounds so
interesting. Yeah, it's really, really,
really cool. Yeah.
All right. Otherwise I think I'm mostly
like like things that point to the person.
Like for example, they are like a wooden stick that is found in
the in the black earth and it's it's written in ruins on that
that Tura was making this because she can work out.
Oh wow, something that was very short person but that is so like
touchable like this Tura was sometimes like holding this
stick in his hand and she was carving these ruins and.
And it's, it's sort of like a message through the generation.
And it's, it's not something who somebody didn't write this about
her. It's right about herself.
That's I agree that's pretty amazing Yeah beer case
especially in so many ways, but it's also the place where at
least the first known missionary to what today is Sweden where he
came Anska, you already mentioned it.
Anska retire so he chose Beerka instead of Uppsala.
Do we know why? Because I mean, Uppsala was
technically where the king was situated, even though obviously
there was who've Gordon at all to say across from Beerka.
But Uppsala, I guess, was the the true seat of the political
power of what was technically Sweden, I guess.
But. Yeah, but I think that there
were more people maybe on Beerka than in Uppsala.
And I don't think that Anska shows Birka.
I think he just got an order that you should go there.
Yeah, I think the saga says or saga, but they say like that the
King Bjorn, he was like sending a letter to to to the great king
of the frantic empire and tell him that he wanted to have some
Christian person on Beerka. OK, why is that?
Probably because he want to trade with them.
OK, I think so because was it they're trying to like make a
little political and and and the trade like the relationship with
the Frankish. But what do you think it was
interesting in becoming Christian himself or just like
a? It's nothing that say that he
became Christian by himself and and also we also need to think
that this is written by Rimbet and Rimbet was of course a
Christian person. So as always, you need to read
it with a little bit of. Pinch of salt.
We know what they wanted to say
with their stories, of course, but the stories say that he was
sent here and when he arrived to break after a lot of adventures,
he was like welcomed that the the people was it's nicest to
him when they when he come. And maybe that depends of that
they already had like 20-30 different cuts.
It doesn't matter if you come one or.
Another one, yeah. Two more.
Another one doesn't matter, no, but is Isn't it true that he was
robbed though? What was that on the journey to?
Yeah, the journey to be he was like going with the trading ship
and the ship was attacked by Vikings outside the coast,
Oskuwana somewhere. And they took his, the Bibles
that he bring and all the gold and silver that he was going to
give to the king and they throw him overboard and he need to
swim into land. Oh wow.
Yeah, it's scary times, but it but it's but he actually came to
to Burka twice. So what else do we know about
his visits in Burka? Yeah, like we, this is the
thing. Like we know most about Burka
because he was this is the only like written eyewitness sources
that we have and or it's not really eyewitnesses because it's
written by Rimbath and he was like written after Anskash died
or something. But it's the closest we have.
And they say that he he was welcomed and he became a very
close friend to the, to the closest man to the king.
And his name was Hiagir. And Hiagir gave him land to
build the first church around 830 or something.
But after 1 1/2 year or something, it was, it became
like a big problem because people get angry and they don't
want to change the way he wanted.
Because so yeah, because we had Juan driven there here 3
episodes back and he talked about planning an an excavation
this fall actually together with Swen.
Calum Ring. Calum Ring.
Yeah. Thank you.
This last name eluded me for a second.
And they were going to examine what is believed to be the the
location of that church. Yeah.
And according to T1, it was previously like a Pagan temple
or like a, well, a Pagan ritual site.
Yeah, so, so do you. Do you know, like I can assume
obviously that's why people got pissed off because they built
the church on their ritual side, baby.
But but how do you know how the excavation has gone?
We really don't know yet and we are like we're waiting and
waiting because they have some things to wait to get some
answer. And for for example, this is one
thing that could maybe say something more about the the
exact date of where the house was there.
And they like open a space. So it was like over one of the
pole holes in the house and then a bit outside the long house and
then down to this special stone rose where they think that the
the cult house and the church has been.
But it was not so big excavation.
So we really hope that it gets nice resulted so we can have
more money so we can continue to excavate so.
It's basically just just making a probe to see what they find
and hopefully they can. Yeah, fund a better also prove
their theories like yeah, so. Can can you say anything about
the fines or do you want, do you want to wait?
I don't think I'm allowed to. Yeah, I'm not going to say
anything. I'm not going to press press you
more. But it's going to be exciting
though, to, to, to be around where actual like a place like
this where you actually find a lot of, yeah, you know,
historical things. And it's so much more to know.
It's it's so little that being excavated and it's so much space
for more things to come. Yeah, exactly.
Because burqa is an amazing place in so many ways, but it's
it's amazing to visit there in general, I think.
And so I wanted to actually lead into this a little bit with
what's happening now and all that stuff with, with
excavations and is, is, is there anything else like that you know
of that's being like researched on PEKKA or any major other
other major projects that are interesting?
It's like nothing more archaeologists things going on
now except of the Kosham projects.
And but we also have another thing we are planning to build a
long house and that is a reconstruction of the Warriors
house from the Garrison area. And that is really cool.
And it would be even cooler if we could build this long house
at the same time that they excavate another long house.
That would be really, really, really amazing.
What why would want I I think it would be can you can you explain
that? Like why it would be so cool to
do it like that? I think I know, but.
Yeah, yeah. But it's, it's really cool that
you can see when, when something is excavated, you can see like
the, the roots of the thing and that you can like follow the
science of when they were as open this longhouse.
And then at the same time see the, the craft and the more
hands on things and see like the craftsman's building a house and
see how it looked like. Because in an excavation you
just see like dirt and dust, and you really need to have trained
eyes to see it. But if you also see it in real
life, you can see it grow up and.
That's exactly what I imagined because I was I was saying that
like you can transfer, you can kind of make the fines the the
the fines you do, you can implement them and and see how
it would have looked like in a three-dimensional in a very
physical way, which which I imagine must be like an insane
experience, like almost like going back in time, as close to
time travel as you can get. If you can do that.
Yeah, that's crazy. That's that.
I wouldn't, I would totally agree with that.
That would be so cool. So anyways, I said BK is an
amazing place to to visit, not only because of, you know,
archaeological stuff, but it's a place where you can actually
feel and history unfold and almost see it unfold before your
eyes. So can you tell us a little bit
about Burqa as a destination today, like for for people who
want to come visit Burqa? Yeah, I think the coolest thing
with the island, except as you say, the, the, the graves and
the town area and the Garrison and everything, it's the nature.
It's a very, very untouched landscape.
And the only thing that's been on the the islands since the
Viking Age is farms. So it's very beautiful nature to
walk around and to to to explore.
And except of that, it's a very cute museum.
It's a lovely museum. Somebody asked me.
It is, and yeah, we have two exhibitions.
Because you also have the, the reconstructed village there as
well, which I think it's is really, it's really cool because
when you go into that, it's, it's a few houses.
But when you go into that, it's again almost like going back in
time. Yeah, exactly.
And it's, I think it's 5 houses and they are all reconstructed
from the excavation of the black cars, the town area in the 90s.
So Ambrosiani, that was the guy of the the that was the leader
of the excavation during the 90s.
He excavated 3 plots and all these three plots are
reconstructed in another place close to the museum.
Yes. So it's like a small piece of
the town that's been. So is is is it an actual like I
guess would you like a block like?
That's how it would look like. Yeah, it's the block of the
town. It's not just like that house
and that house over there. It's just this area.
We rebuild this area over here. That's that's really cool.
I didn't know that, actually. That makes it even more
fascinating, I think. Yeah, it's really cool.
And it's also nice how how it grows up because it was it was a
team teamed up the, the Stroma company that runs the public
things and and the University of Stockholm.
And the government was like together working to make this.
And they also make like a course in in the university.
So it was like Viking Age building techniques.
So the student was doing the the theoretical things, doing the
autumn, and then during the spring they came out and they
built Baker. That's really cool.
That's really cool because then they get the hands on experience
as well. Yes, that's that's going to be a
fascinating for the students as well, I think.
But I mean, I think personally, the boat ride alone out to Baker
from from Stockholm is is absolutely beautiful.
The lake Lake Maryland is beautiful and I can recommend
that like any time of year actually, because it's it's so
nice and you don't also have a restaurant out there, right,
yes, So which is great to visit as well, I think.
But like, how many people do you welcome each year to to the
island? Yeah, I just got the numbers for
for these years. We have two weekends left open
before we close for the season, but I think we have had around
35,000 visitors. This years that's really good.
Hopefully this this podcast will make more people interested in
going there because it is a beautiful place.
Yeah, but and you do guided tours, like how many tour guides
or how many guided tours do you do do a day?
It depends a little bit when during the season, because we
have like low season in early spring and autumn and then
during June, July and August we have high seasons.
And then I think we have around six guided tours every day in
English and Swedish. I think it's a, it's an amazing
place to go and, and to, to. I had the opportunity about, I,
I hate to say it, but it's, it's 25 years ago to, to, to go on a
guided tour there together with the Caledon history, who you
also know, of course lives on all those across the street.
And he gave us a guided tour there.
And I, I was just just to go among the, the, the, the grave
mounds and up to the fortress and the like over the black
earth and all that stuff with someone who can tell you about
this. It's, it's such a different
thing than going to a regular museum, I think.
So it's really well worth a visit with Burka, I think.
And and if you're interested in Vikings, it's amazing If you're
not just the nature experience itself is is great.
I think so. And and you actually live on
Burka. Yeah, I do.
That's great. Like it.
Well, not on Burka, but Bjorka, which we're being situated.
So like, how is that to live, live in that environment?
It's amazing. Actually, I live just in the
middle of a burial ground, so I have.
Oh really? Yeah, I have mounds in my
garden. Do you have a Do you have a
burial ground in your garden? Yeah, I do.
So yeah, it's, it's crazy and it's, yeah, it's really
beautiful. And like the seasons are so more
exposed in, in Baker, I think because you are like so close to
the nature. So, so every season is so much
more when, when you are in the town, for example, you.
So yeah, it's, it's really beautiful.
And and I was a little bit afraid in the beginning.
I've been working there for a really long time, but I just
lived on the island for five years.
And I suppose a little bit afraid in the beginning that OK,
I will get cold feet during the winter.
And I was feeling alone and all the friends and families are on
the mainland and I'm alone on the island with my my husband.
But. Cabin fever.
Yeah, but no, no, it's the best ever.
I totally, I totally believe you.
I mean, obviously it's it's really not that far to
Stockholm, but it is an island. Yeah.
And winter time you can't like the lake can be covered in ice
and could be tricky to to get like to the mainland.
Yeah, and especially just the between time when the ice is not
too, too. Yeah, thick enough to walk on,
but it's thick enough to to don't go with the boats.
So it's yeah, that's you got to prepare for that in some.
Yeah, yeah, I, I hear you. So I just remembered, I forgot
you, you mentioned that you have about two weeks to go this this
season. What what are your opening like?
When, when, when do you open them?
Like when do you close? Yeah, we opened like the first
weekend of May and we closed the last weekend of October.
So it's it's very like short like period of time.
You can go there, yeah. But it's the best time though.
Yeah, it is. Going there in February is not
very nice, I think. No, I think it's cool, but it
can be a problem to go there and maybe you can go there but not
go home because of the weather. So that's.
That would make a problem. Welcome to Beerka.
But you have to stay a week. Yeah.
Speaking of that, I mean if you do go to Beerka during your
opening, can you stay the night? Can you stay for a longer period
of time just exploring the island?
You can, we have some clamping tents that you can rent.
Nice. So yeah, you can.
So do you get to live like a Viking though?
Or is it an actual clamping? No, it's an actual clamping.
It is. Maybe you should do like stuff
where you get to live like a Viking, sleep on dirt.
Maybe we can do it when we have the longhouse.
Maybe. Maybe that would be cool.
Yeah. Because I mean, obviously
longhouses if like during the Viking Age, you would sit in
there and feast, and when it was time to go to bed, you just lay
down where you were sitting, basically, and slept there.
Well, yeah, that could work. Just feast.
Feast all night. And then.
All right, I'm tired. Yours roll over.
Yeah, exactly. So now you're our destination
manager at Bianca and you have all these things going on like
the, the guided tours and the reconstructed village in the
museum and the restaurant and all that stuff that we talked
about. But you also arrange or a number
of events each year or theme days.
What can you tell us about those?
Like the the like what events do you have that you feel strongly
about? Or yeah, just feel our fun.
Yes. Oh, it's so much fun.
We have a lot of very nice different events.
And I think the first one and the first big one we have every
year is the big historical tattoo fest.
And that is not just the festival, it's like a community.
It's yeah, it's yeah, it's so nice vibes and a lot of nice,
cool, very good people coming and.
So what goes on during the tattoo fest and.
We have Viking markets, we have bands that's playing, we have a
lot of workshops everyday where you can learn to do different
crafts, but also more like spiritual things, so like drum
travelling or it's a mix of a lot of different workshops.
We have lectures and we have around 40 tattoo artists coming,
so there's also like a tattoo convention mixed in all this
other thing. Are they all hand poke?
Mostly hand poke some is working with machine also, but all of
them are specialized in historical ornament things.
OK. And it's not just Old N, it's
also like Celtic, Slavic, Indonesian, a lot of different
so and they are really, really hand picked artist that is like
the best in the world. So how how many years have you
done this? It will be the 4th edition 2026
OK and it's gross and it's so cool because I found out it like
the second year or something had it when I was standing and
looking at all things. I have an Atlantic.
Wow. We have 250 people staying on
this island for four days and I think it's must been the first
time since the Viking Age that there's been so many people
gathering and staying over at big at the same time.
That is that that's that's a very strange thought.
I actually had a little bit of a goosebumps.
Yeah, and it's so cool also because there are common people
from all over the world. I get goosebumped when a guy
from like Hawaii was emailing and say hi, I want to join you.
How do I do like Hawaii? Yeah, I've never been to Europe
before. Like God.
So you want to go to Beerka, all right?
Yeah. So yeah.
And yeah, it's so much fun and so much nice people.
Hawaii, I mean island island. Then again, Lake Maryland is
slightly smaller than the Pacific Ocean.
A little bit. Smaller.
A little bit smaller, yes, yes. But yeah, that's, that sounds
really, really interesting. I knew about this tattoo
festival. It's it's weird though, because
always, like in May is always my busiest time, but I actually
wanted to go there, yeah, a couple of times.
So hopefully next year I will be able to, but we'll see, yeah.
You are always welcome. There's always something common
in the way, getting the way from from doing fun stuff like that.
You know, maybe I should make time.
Yes. If you can't find the time, make
the time Good. Yeah.
So are there any other other events that you really enjoy a
lot? Of them we try to find something
new every year and also something that fits different
groups of visitors. So we have of course like
children activities. This year we have a dog event
for the first time and it was the dog, the best friend of the
Viking. So it was Icelandic Sheepdogs
Association that was on the island and they show their dogs
and this dog breed is like the same as Icelandic horses that
they came with the Vikings to Iceland and then they have like
stayed there and. But do they have the same rules
for the dogs that are like, I know for the horses, if a horse
goes yeah, away from Iceland, they can't come back.
I think it's the same with the dogs.
OK, so so they didn't bring their own dogs?
Yeah, we there are of course people that breed them outside
Iceland too, of course. Yes, some like there was a sort.
So we there was like, I don't know, kennel in Swedish.
Yeah, yeah. Camel.
Camel, yeah. That was coming.
So they have a lot of cute dogs that you could pet and they have
like dog parade and they was having a small theater show
about these dogs and but we also have serious lectures about dogs
in graves and dogs during biking age.
Yeah, because there is a number of dogs that have been found in
biking age graves. Yes, a lot of them, and also a
lot of different sizes. And also like what did the dog
have? What what was the rule for the
dog? Was it just hunting dogs or the
pets or what? Yeah.
So, yeah, that was really, very, really cool.
So I think we will continue to have it even next year.
Then we have, for example, now the last weekend we will have
the Alva Blute, the Viking Halloween.
Yes, of course. Where the visitors can meet a
lot of different gods and black elves and white elves.
Oh wow. And visit the real Blute, the
sacrifice. So the Alva Alva Blute, I think
is I think we should really talk about this because obviously, as
you say it, it, it is the, the Viking Halloween.
And So what, what can you tell us about the Alva Blute?
Because I think it's a, a really interesting part of like how
this relates to other cultures as well, because like on
Ireland, you have so on and, and like the, the hallow, which
became the Halloween that we know.
But then obviously, like in South America, Dia de Muertos
and, and, and those things that, and it all kind of correlates.
So what can you tell us about Alva Blut?
What, what, What do we know about this festival?
Yeah, the the Alva Blut was to to celebrate the forefathers and
the the ones that have died exactly as Halloween.
And so it's like, OK, what was the hen and what was the egg?
Where did it start? And it's interesting with this
kind of phenomenon that is in a lot of different religions in a
lot of different parts of the world that seems to appear at
the same time in maybe it was the Vikings that bring it to the
north part of UK from the beginning.
Maybe. And then they they have the
Celtic thing or yeah, I don't know.
But it it is to to like celebrate that the the dark is
coming and for the forefathers. Yeah, yeah, I, I think it's a,
it's, it's a lovely tradition anyways, and to remember those
who who went before you. So, yeah, that sounds really
nice. And and that's actually how you
close the year, is that correct? Yeah, Yeah.
So that's the end of Beerka, and then you had to get the hell out
of there. At least unless you live there.
Yeah, I need to stay there. Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, that sounds, that sounds amazing.
You know, unfortunately this year I am occupied.
Otherwise I would go there for sure.
It's maybe next year. That could be something.
So now we talked a lot about stuff and we already mentioned
the the possible or the long house that you're planning to
build. What other future plans do you
have for Beerka as a like as a destination?
Yeah, yes, we need to gain visitors because we just live on
the entree things. The The thing is that is the,
the head of the, the island is the national property board, but
they don't work with the public things.
So they rent out the public area with the museum and the
restaurant and everything to, to a private company.
And we don't have any like support from from the
municipality or the, the government with money.
So we need to earn everything. So if, if we want to like expand
the, the activities and the and the the area, we also need to
gain more money. And to gain more money, we need
to have more visitors. Of course.
So we are like planning to to do a lot of things.
We need to go more out and, and show ourselves and to make
people to understand that it's it's worth to go there.
Of course we also want to have like we have some animals there
now we have goats and hens, but it it's also been nice to to
have more animals, more Viking life, working together with more
inactive groups, have a big programme with events.
We want to, we are planning actually to have a Kiwi and Ruse
festival and I think it's never been done before.
Can you explain that like a Kiwi and ruse?
Is that what I think it is like a Maori not?
Maori. I was like Kiwi, like that name.
Kiwi like. Kiwi and oh, I see like like in
Kiev. In Kiev.
Yeah, I was like. Kiwi, did you do that?
That sounds. Very strange.
OK, so sorry. I didn't make the connection
Festival. I see.
OK.
So that is something we're looking at now.
Yeah. And yeah, I think we will manage
to have it and it was be really, really nice.
That sounds, that sounds great. Yeah.
So that that would be an annual thing then, hopefully.
Yeah, yeah. So like a like a bring in like
reenactors and and. Yes.
And like work to together with the reenactment groups maybe
from Ukraine. And that was really, really
nice. That would be super, yeah.
Fantastic. I would go to that, sure.
And it's, yeah, the the working name is the Eastern Wind from
Pyrgang. Good one.
Yes, and then also looking into maybe to have a food festival.
Yes, you have the restaurant already so.
Yes, and I would like also to invite a lot of different chefs
that is like good in in Viking each food and maybe you can go
around and try taste in different places and also of
course have lectures about Viking food and.
And the herbs and Peggies and what they eat and how they take
care of the food. I like food.
I'll I'll be there. Yeah.
No, but seriously, I, I think I think these are great ideas and
I think that you will definitely attract a lot more people with
this. So I'm really looking forward to
to see how this works out. And, and, and I, as I said, I
think Bieka is it's well worth a visit whether you're interested
in Vikings or not. But obviously it makes it a
little more, especially if you are all right.
Well, it's been lovely talking to you and we're closing to the
end. Yeah.
But we always leave with a couple of questions that we have
for all our guests. So the first question is if you
could be a family on the wall anywhere during the Viking Age,
but I guess in your case specifically in at Beerka, and
to just go back in time as a family on the wall and
experience something that happened during like the Viking
Age at Beerka, what would that be?
It would be when Pika disappeared.
Why? What happened?
I want to be fly on the wall somewhere close to the Garrison
to the warrior's house when the IT was attacked.
I want to know why? And from SO, how much do we
know? Like exactly when it disappeared
or or. Yeah, they from the excavations
they say like around 900, the 900-7900 and 75.
OK, so but they don't know why at all or.
It's a lot of the different theories, of course.
I have one OK. What's your theory?
I think it was the king himself that attacked Beerka.
OK. Because I think that they have
tried to convert bigger for over 100 years back and forward.
And I think also it could be like early king noble conflict.
I think that maybe the king is have start to lose the control
of the trade. Maybe the the the the traders
and the the people that was living on Bika have became very
rich and very powerful and they have friends all over the then
known world. And so I think that he hired
soldiers to attack. OK.
Bika and then he moved the town to Sikkuna.
Because that's what happened. I know that so they OK.
Because otherwise I cannot understand that this like
professional warriors didn't even have time to pick up their
weapons. They couldn't protect the town
this time when they have done it so many times before.
So it must be something more than just a regular attack.
OK, that is, that is an interesting theory.
Do you know any other theories that around or?
Yes, they have been talking about that the the the water
level in the lake were changing so much so they couldn't go
there by big boats anymore. And they've been talking about
that everything burned down and thicknesses.
And yeah, so it's a lot of different theories.
Yeah, I think most people agree that it is economical and and I
think religions, political things.
I think your theory is sounds more exciting.
Yeah, and it would make a good movie.
It would it would definitely make a good movie.
Yeah, I'm I'm sure about that. All right, so here's here's the
the mother of all questions. Would you have wanted to live
during the Viking Age knowing what you know today, especially?
But I don't think so. OK.
Why not? Because it was probably very
cold and I would have been dead a lot of times because I have
not eaten a lot of pencillin and went to surgeries and stuff.
And I mean. Yes, you could die from a
splinter for sure. Yeah, Yeah, that is that
question. But what do you think?
Like I was, I've always kind of been curious and we never really
dug into this with other guests. But what do you think about
like, like adopting to that kind of society?
Because we don't really know a lot about what the Viking
society was, but I would, I would assume that it actually
would be quite different from the society we live in right
now. Yes, obviously.
Obviously very different, yeah. So it would be would be really
difficult to adapt, don't you think?
Yeah, but but I also think that they have like they have a a big
feeling of belonging. I think it was very important to
have like your family, your kin. I think a lot of things maybe
was easier because you didn't need to know what was happening
in Gaza or in like. It was just where you are right
now. Yeah, they were there and they
they were in their group of people.
And so of course it was really, really tough and it was probably
cold and smoky in the houses. And so, but I also think they
have a feeling of belonging that a lot of people is lacking
today. I think you're right.
I think you're right, especially since it was also like an, an,
an oral community, Like there were no books really.
So all the stories were from mouth to mouth and all that
stuff. So like, it was, it was a
different time in like human connections.
I would, I would, I would assume, having not really
experienced it, but yeah, I would assume that.
It's interesting though, because I think there's only two people
who have said that they would want to live during the Viking
Age. Can you guess at least one of
them? I'll, I'll, I'll give you a
hint. You know him.
I know him, far of it of. Course, yeah, far of it said
without a doubt he would want to live them.
Yeah, I was actually surprised, but that was fun.
Personally, I don't think like knowing what I know today, I
don't think I could could live during the Viking Age.
I think it's a, it's a very harsh community, a very
different morality in in ethics than what we're used to.
I think modern people would, no matter who you are, would have a
really hard time adapting to that mentality.
However, obviously if you were born during that YEAH time, you
wouldn't know anything different.
But no, no. But come they've been dropped
down from 2025 down to. And I also.
Think that and. I also think that you're
absolutely right, because obviously family ties and and
stuff like that was so important during the Viking Age.
So if you're dropped down into that world without any
connections, you're really, really vulnerable.
Yeah, really. Yeah, so that that will be
really tough, I think. Yes.
Yeah. Well, thank you so much for
being here to Dave, Veronica and and hopefully we'll see you at
Berka very soon. I would love to go back there
soon. And yeah, good luck with Oliver
Blut and all the new things that's coming in Berka.
And for all of you guys listening and watching, whenever
you come to Sweden, you have to visit Berka.
It's it's a wonderful place. It's a magical place and it's as
as I said before, it's a place where you can actually feel
history unfold before your very eyes.
I think you can cannot come closer.
Not much. Thank you very much.
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