1 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:10,200 Welcome back to the To Be a Boy podcast with me, Elliot Ray and 2 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:12,440 Jodie Brady. First things first, we are 3 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:15,240 loving the interaction, loving the feedback. 4 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:19,400 Please like and subscribe to the podcast for more content on a 5 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:27,680 weekly basis. Today we have an amazing guest, 6 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:30,680 an amazing guest to talk to us about online safety. 7 00:00:30,680 --> 00:00:33,800 So online safety is one of the most important and pressing 8 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:37,320 issues of the day for us. It's on our minds constantly and 9 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:40,200 we know it's the same for almost all of you listening parents and 10 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:43,120 carers who are concerned about the content that young people 11 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:46,680 are consuming online. In 2024, children in the United 12 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:50,600 Kingdom spend an average of 134 minutes per day on TikTok. 13 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:54,760 This was followed by Instagram as children in the UK reported 14 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:57,480 using the app for an average of 49 minutes per day. 15 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:02,160 According to Ofcom, 36% of children aged 8 to 17 said they 16 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:05,840 had seen something worrying or nasty online in the past 12 17 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:08,480 months, and children were more likely to experience being 18 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:11,040 bullied by technology than face to face. 19 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:14,960 Research to mark Safe for Internet Day found that 69% of 20 00:01:14,960 --> 00:01:19,040 boys had encountered posts promoting misogyny, with 70% of 21 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:22,400 teachers saying they had seen a rise in sexist language in the 22 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:25,720 classroom over the last year. Now this clearly needs 23 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:28,920 government intervention and finally it looks like we may 24 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:31,680 have some. So in April this year, the final 25 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:35,440 version of the children's online safety codes in online safety 26 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:38,040 apps were published. Ofcom, the online safety 27 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:41,920 regulator, sets out the final outline of exactly what steps 28 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:44,960 social media companies will have to take from July. 29 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:48,600 So now by law to protect children from harmful content 30 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:50,600 online. The laws will be some of the 31 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:54,400 most far reaching online safety protections in the world and 32 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:57,280 mean platforms have to protect children from harmful content 33 00:01:57,520 --> 00:02:01,280 including suicide, self harm, pornography and violent 34 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:03,520 materials. So today we are delighted to be 35 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:06,560 joined by the Right Honourable Peter Kyle, the Secretary of 36 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:08,720 State for Science, Innovation and Technology. 37 00:02:09,199 --> 00:02:11,480 We'll be delving into what online safety codes are aiming 38 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:14,800 to achieve, how Ofcom, we'll be holding social media companies 39 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:18,360 to account and what parents and carers need to know to keep 40 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:20,840 their children safe online. Thanks for joining us, Peter. 41 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:23,640 It's safe to say that we couldn't ask for a better guest 42 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:26,960 when discussing children's life online and what we can do to 43 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:29,320 help keep them safe. So welcome to the podcast. 44 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:31,440 Thanks so much, I've been really looking forward to speaking to 45 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:33,120 you. So I won't be exaggerating when 46 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:35,640 I say that, you know, the biggest issue for parents and 47 00:02:35,640 --> 00:02:39,080 carers right now is how to keep their children safe online. 48 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:42,680 I have a nine year old and she's getting very interested in 49 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:46,400 YouTube and Roblox and it's a real challenge for all of us to 50 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:48,080 navigate. It's stressing me out. 51 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:50,760 The online world can be dangerous for children and young 52 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:52,800 people. With porn, the manosphere, deep 53 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:55,600 fakes, all of that are a touch of a button. 54 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:58,400 And the mental health implications for children is 55 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:00,640 huge. So we welcome the Online Safety 56 00:03:00,640 --> 00:03:02,600 Act and the new codes of practice. 57 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:04,040 Let's start with the bigger picture. 58 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:08,040 What are your overall aims with the Online Safety Act and the 59 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:11,640 new Codes of Practice? Well, thanks for having me 60 00:03:11,640 --> 00:03:13,440 again. It is quite simple. 61 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:15,720 We need to, we need to nail down on safety. 62 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:19,160 We need to make sure that young people are safe and secure 63 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:23,600 online, but they feel safe and secure online. 64 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:26,000 And the two things are related, but they are different. 65 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:29,760 And parents need to feel that their children are also safe 66 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:32,120 online. And these are really important 67 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:34,680 things for two very obvious reasons. 68 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:37,400 Firstly, safety is incredibly important. 69 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:41,320 We need to keep our children safe, but feeling safe is also 70 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:42,600 important, which is the second thing. 71 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:45,640 Because if you don't feel safe, whether you're physically out 72 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:48,040 and about in communities and you don't feel safe or whether 73 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:51,840 you're online and don't feel safe, then you are not exploring 74 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:54,120 all of the opportunities that are there because you're 75 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:56,960 constantly worried about what the next step might bring. 76 00:03:56,960 --> 00:04:01,520 And online activity, online life is incredibly important and 77 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:04,000 going to be growing more important as we go forward. 78 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:06,800 And we want young people to grow up into the world being cyber 79 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:10,240 confident, not cyber scared, so that you can explore all the 80 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:11,360 opportunities that are out there. 81 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:13,600 But unless you get safety right, you can't do it. 82 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:15,520 And I'll just say one other thing about your introduction 83 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:18,240 that that really struck me. You said it's, it's one of the 84 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:20,399 the main concerns that parents have at the moment. 85 00:04:20,399 --> 00:04:23,960 And I've been reflecting on this for a great deal before I became 86 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:26,120 a Secretary of State, you know, in opposition preparing the 87 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:28,800 program of government. And I came to this sort of 88 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:32,760 conclusion that having spoken to so many parents, having read so 89 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:36,120 much research and also spoken to so many young people, that if 90 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:40,040 you're 18 and 19 years old today, then you were born the 91 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:42,480 year that the iPhone was released. 92 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:46,520 So if you are a late teenager now, you have never known life 93 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:49,600 without a smartphone. But then if you put that into 94 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:54,040 parenting terms, that means that the overwhelming majority of 95 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:58,320 parents didn't grow up in the age of a smartphone. 96 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:03,760 So they weren't parented by people who understood how to set 97 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:07,880 boundaries for you when you were children, how to guide children 98 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:11,400 through an online life. So there's no parents that are 99 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:15,400 around currently today that have the lived experience of being 100 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:18,560 parented in an online environment, in a smartphone 101 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:22,840 world, in an app based world. So there's there's not something 102 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:26,040 like other parts of parenting where the in the physical world 103 00:05:26,280 --> 00:05:29,280 where you're used to setting boundaries for young people 104 00:05:29,280 --> 00:05:32,720 about social boundaries, about diet, about exercise, about the 105 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:37,440 amount of time, you know, on TV, let alone just on online. 106 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:40,000 All these things were instinctive and handed down 107 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:42,960 through generations. But we are the first generation 108 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:45,920 of parents or you are the first generation of parents who is 109 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:49,080 having to deal with this. And because it's new parents 110 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:51,480 don't feel equipped. And if you don't feel equipped 111 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:55,040 and you're worried that it means it drives a lot of anxiety. 112 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:57,960 And this is something that I'm thinking very carefully about as 113 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:00,200 we go forward, which I hope we'll come to later in the 114 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:02,720 conversation. Yeah, it's all new and we're 115 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:05,640 trying to figure it out. And I think that's why parents 116 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:08,760 and carers and children are so and so worried and so scared in 117 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:10,400 the act. You're asking the social media 118 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:14,160 companies to make some quite big changes to the way they operate, 119 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:16,960 and it could result in some big behavior change when it comes to 120 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:19,760 young people online. I think the parents and carers 121 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:22,840 listening want to know about what it means for them and also 122 00:06:22,840 --> 00:06:25,000 what the social media companies have to do differently. 123 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:29,520 So can you talk to us about some of the main codes of practice 124 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:32,120 that the social media companies will now have to follow? 125 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:36,200 You made it sound quite polite that I'm asking them to do 126 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:37,880 things. Actually, I'm a bit firmer than 127 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:39,720 that. I've passed laws and we are 128 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:42,920 enacting laws which are requiring, demanding, telling 129 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:45,760 them that they have to do it. And in some cases it's been a 130 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:48,120 very constructive relationship with the tech companies that 131 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:50,560 many of the people who are working in tech companies are 132 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:52,600 parents themselves. So I don't always want to make 133 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:54,520 out that it's an adversarial relationship. 134 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:58,600 But clearly we needed to up the floor of where the where the 135 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:00,360 measures are to keep people safe. 136 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:03,840 So there's two big steps forward that have happened this year or 137 00:07:03,840 --> 00:07:05,960 one's happened. 1 is happening this month. 138 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:10,440 The 1st is that as of January, platforms are required to take 139 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:14,280 down illegal content from their sites and it is a criminal 140 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:18,520 offence if illegal content is put onto their platforms and 141 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:21,240 it's not removed. That's the first step that 142 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:23,760 happened. The second one is the most 143 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:26,440 important one that's happening and that is going to happen in 144 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:30,240 July and that is going to be that all material which goes 145 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:35,320 onto platforms must be age appropriate to those people who 146 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:38,520 are consuming it. So it will become a criminal 147 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:43,320 offence if there is material that is unsuitable for young 148 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:46,560 teenagers and it makes it onto those platforms and it makes it 149 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:48,800 into the feeds of young teenagers. 150 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:51,760 Let me just be really clear about how strident these 151 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:53,320 measurements, these measures are. 152 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:57,280 Each company could get fined up to 10% of their global earnings. 153 00:07:57,280 --> 00:07:59,400 That takes it well over £100 million. 154 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:04,000 Secondly, each company has to name somebody in their 155 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:08,000 organization who is responsible for making sure that age 156 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:13,600 appropriate content takes place. If they break the law and reach 157 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:17,360 the criminal threshold, that named person will be held to 158 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:21,520 account and could go to prison. This is the first time anywhere 159 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:25,240 in the world this has happened. So individual people are being 160 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:28,120 held criminally liable in the same way that you would have 161 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:30,760 experienced in other parts of the world for things like 162 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:32,960 corporate manslaughter. Well, the same approach is now 163 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:37,720 being taken to making sure that kids have a content given to 164 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:40,120 them which is appropriate for their age. 165 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:43,400 And these two things combined will make a difference. 166 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:47,280 It will feel different for young people, the experience, and it 167 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:50,640 will feel different for parents. I'm not saying it's the end of 168 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:53,040 the road. These are the first, first very 169 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:55,840 significant steps forward and we need to keep moving forward. 170 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:58,200 But these are very, very meaningful powers. 171 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:02,760 Can I just clarify what you mean by illegal content? 172 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:08,080 Would that cover pornography, suicide ideation and harm to 173 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:10,600 others? Would that be it in a nutshell? 174 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:14,680 So if it's if it's set foot out of the legal definition of what 175 00:09:14,680 --> 00:09:17,480 is allowed for pornography, then yes, that's illegal. 176 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:21,000 When it comes to suicide site, yes that is illegal and they 177 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:23,040 have already had action taken against them. 178 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:26,680 There's one site which is has action taken against them. 179 00:09:26,680 --> 00:09:29,760 There is another site which is the most popular and I hate to 180 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:33,600 use the phrase, the most frequently visited suicide site 181 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:37,080 is not domiciled in the UK, but they've already geofenced the UK 182 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:40,160 and withdrawn their site from the UK market. 183 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:44,640 They actually put a statement out saying that I was infringing 184 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:47,680 on free speech. Well, of course I waved goodbye 185 00:09:47,680 --> 00:09:49,960 to them and I'm happy that they've that they've gone. 186 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:53,640 So it does show that the law is actually working again. 187 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:56,040 I'm, I'm going to say at the beginning, I don't want to 188 00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:59,560 overstate what all these measures will do because I know 189 00:09:59,560 --> 00:10:01,560 that there is gonna be exceptions and there's gonna be 190 00:10:01,560 --> 00:10:04,720 things that will emerge as we take steps forward. 191 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:06,560 But I hope people will see through the course of this 192 00:10:06,560 --> 00:10:10,280 conversation that I am determined to, to nail down on 193 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:13,520 these things. And if there are wiggle through 194 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:16,800 it rounds, if there are things that slip through the net, then 195 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:18,560 we will act very, very decisively on it. 196 00:10:18,560 --> 00:10:20,280 But these are very big, powerful measures. 197 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:22,960 And it also covers things like hate speech, the kind of 198 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:27,520 activity which is illegal offline is very often illegal 199 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:29,400 online. But there's been no criminal 200 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:31,840 sanction against the platform for actually posting it and 201 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:33,760 disseminating it. But now there is that sanction 202 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:35,560 there. Yeah. 203 00:10:35,560 --> 00:10:39,080 And so the ACT sounds strong. I guess the ME is in the 204 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:44,120 enforcement and we know that Ofcom have the power to find the 205 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:46,080 social media companies if they don't comply. 206 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:50,360 Some of the parents I've spoken to are skeptical about the power 207 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:54,360 that Ofcom have and whether they will actually be brave enough to 208 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:57,200 dish out the fines. What would you say to that? 209 00:10:57,200 --> 00:11:01,880 If a Meta or if a Snapchat etcetera break the law, are you 210 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:03,880 confident Ofcom and the government are actually going to 211 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:06,120 take action on? That so Ofcom have already 212 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:08,400 started action based on the powers that they've had since 213 00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:11,720 January, and they started that action within hours of having 214 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:14,800 the power. Now, I made myself very clear on 215 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:17,880 what out how I expected those powers to be used. 216 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:20,760 And that is assertively in the interests of children, young 217 00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:23,880 people and parents in our society. 218 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:26,040 I've also been the first Secretary of State, which has 219 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:29,080 issued a statement of strategic priorities. 220 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:32,640 That is a power that's given to me in law that I can write to 221 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:36,720 the regulator and I can tell the regulator formally what 222 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:40,040 behaviour I expect the regulator to take in certain 223 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:42,320 circumstances. And I've issued a statement of 224 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:46,640 strategic priority in order to give clarity to how I, as 225 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:50,280 Secretary of State and how this government expects the 226 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:54,680 independent regulator to act in order to use these powers and 227 00:11:54,680 --> 00:11:59,080 use these powers on behalf of the children and society that 228 00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:02,520 they are there to protect. And again, they are an 229 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:05,800 independent regulator, but they are regulated by the laws that 230 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:07,880 we pass. If I think they need more 231 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:10,440 powers, then I will come back and revisit the law. 232 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:13,760 If I think that the existing powers aren't being used 233 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:16,480 assertively enough, well, I will take this up in the regular 234 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:19,520 meetings I have with Ofcom, but let me just put onto the record 235 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:22,600 now that I am pleased with the way they've been using the 236 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:25,720 powers they have so far. The challenge is always moving 237 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:29,160 forward and not just banking some wins and moving on to the 238 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:31,040 next thing or taking your eye off the ball. 239 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:35,480 We need to continuously move forward until the Internet for 240 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:38,840 young people feels like a safe place to be and we're not there 241 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:41,440 by a long way yet. They have the powers, and I 242 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:44,960 expect those powers to be used. So on this podcast, we we speak 243 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:47,000 to a lot of parents in advance and get their stories. 244 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:51,680 And we spoke to a mom whose 10 year old saw some very violent 245 00:12:51,680 --> 00:12:54,000 porn and it really affected their child. 246 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:55,960 They had insomnia. They were worried about going to 247 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:59,760 school, they changed their personality, they became quite 248 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:03,400 withdrawn. What would you say to that, to 249 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:04,960 that mother? You know, there's been some 250 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:07,160 criticism that the ACT doesn't go far enough. 251 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:10,000 You said this is an initial step, but what would you say to 252 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:13,840 that parent, that mum who wants the government to go further and 253 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:18,000 feels like the ACT isn't going to stop other families from 254 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:19,040 going through what she went through? 255 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:23,240 The first thing is, if she is listening, I am sickened by what 256 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:28,480 her child had to go through, and I am deeply, deeply sorry that 257 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:31,600 they had to experience that. I accept entirely that this 258 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:33,360 happened. I think this is not uncommon. 259 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:36,400 I think this will be a familiar story to many of the people who 260 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:37,880 are listening to this who are parents. 261 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:40,040 I know it's a familiar story to many of the people in the 262 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:42,720 constituency I represent because I've met parents who've come to 263 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:45,600 me to talk about this and actually show me some of the 264 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:47,680 materials made into their children's feed. 265 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:51,920 But all I'll say is that these powers, when that happened to 266 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:54,360 her, to her child, we're not even online yet. 267 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:57,160 They weren't in force. They weren't available to us, to 268 00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:00,640 you, but they are now. I want those powers to be used 269 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:05,440 in the name of keeping children like yours safe and free from 270 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:08,360 that kind of interference. I've had a similar situation 271 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:13,080 where my son has also seen some quite violent porn but he didn't 272 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:16,320 see it on social media. He found it through, he was 273 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:18,640 watching YouTube, he said something popped up, he clicked 274 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:20,600 it, clicked something else and before he knew it, it was on a 275 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:24,160 horrible pornography site and he saw something really graphic and 276 00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:28,640 he was 10 when he saw that. And I but these laws wouldn't 277 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:30,320 stop that from happening, would they? 278 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:35,040 Because that the pornography itself isn't illegal and the 279 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:37,960 site that he was on that would have been age appropriate 280 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:41,240 because it was 4 / 18. He just managed to very easily 281 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:43,440 access it. So is there anything in the bill 282 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,080 that would prevent that from happening in the future? 283 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:49,920 Yes indeed. In fact, porn sites need to age 284 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:53,760 verify their sites as well. This isn't just for social 285 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:57,400 media, this is all platforms. They must make sure that the 286 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:01,360 material that they supply to their customers, their service 287 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:05,160 users, are age appropriate. It would be a criminal offence 288 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:09,800 for a young teenager to to access the material that you've 289 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:12,200 just described. And we have been into contact 290 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:17,000 with many of those sites that are UK domiciled so that we have 291 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:19,160 been engaging with them to explain to them what the law 292 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:21,640 requires of them. You know, there are, there are 293 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:24,560 some mainstream sites, there's some big, big, big sites, some 294 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:27,280 of the smaller ones which are disseminating some of the 295 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:31,080 material which is probably illegal and is extreme. 296 00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:34,360 These will be tackled if they do not prevent young people from 297 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:35,840 seeing the content on their sites. 298 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:39,200 Again, there are many, many of these sites out there. 299 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:42,760 This is a big task that we've got, but we have the power now. 300 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:45,800 And if the issue is about resource in how we get to them, 301 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:47,440 then I'll I'll start addressing it. 302 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:49,800 Again, I don't want to overstate it, but we have the powers to 303 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:53,040 take down all of those sites and what you've described would be 304 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:55,120 illegal. Ofcom joined this whole process, 305 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:58,680 which is a laborious long process, have been engaging with 306 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:03,680 porn sites and other other areas on the the Internet to try and 307 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:05,960 explain to them where they're going and also engage with them 308 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:08,600 about it. The law requires that all 309 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:12,800 technological solutions are applied appropriately to their 310 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:16,720 sites in order to verify the age of the people who are accessing 311 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:19,120 it. Of COM can do an assessment of 312 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:21,560 what technology would be appropriate for their sites and 313 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:25,480 if they believe those sites aren't using appropriate 314 00:16:25,480 --> 00:16:28,920 technology, again, they will be fined, they will be sanctioned. 315 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:31,520 But if they are, then there'll be progress. 316 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:34,240 If they're not and I need to go further on things, I'm very, 317 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:37,720 very open about going further, but the intent is very clear in 318 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:39,880 the law. We've got a lot of power now, 319 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:42,960 but I want to reassure all the parents out there and also the 320 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:46,560 young people who do not want to have this stuff put into their 321 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:49,480 their feeds and put in front of them to stumble across it, that 322 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:53,080 if these powers are not used in the right way, I will look 323 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:55,880 straight away about how I can act to make sure it is. 324 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:59,240 Peter, let's talk about age. So from the NHS Digital site, 325 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:03,560 one in six children aged 5 to 16 in England had a probable mental 326 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:07,880 health disorder in 2021, up from one in nine in 2017. 327 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:11,160 And this rise correlates with increased screen time and online 328 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:13,200 engagement. And the Young Mental Health 329 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:18,280 Foundation found 60% of young people aged 13 to 25 say social 330 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:21,079 media negatively impacts their self esteem. 331 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:24,520 Girl Guiding said one in three girls aged 11 to 21. 332 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:27,560 So they feel unhappy with how they look because of images they 333 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:30,400 see online. So the the minimum age currently 334 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:33,120 for Instagram, TikTok and Snapchat is 13. 335 00:17:33,120 --> 00:17:35,360 There are some restrictions and parental approval at that at 336 00:17:35,360 --> 00:17:40,520 that age, but do you think 13 is is really old enough and should 337 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:44,840 we raise that age like Australia have done to? 338 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:48,880 16 It's a really good question and I don't have a definitive 339 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:52,520 answer which is based on definitive evidence and I it's 340 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:55,680 hard for a politician like me to not be sort of definitive on 341 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:59,360 every question that's put to me. But on this, I'm quite open 342 00:17:59,360 --> 00:18:03,200 minded and I have been commissioning research from 343 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:05,360 within my own department. We've been commissioning 344 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:08,880 academic research into these sorts of issues. 345 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:11,680 Firstly, my, my view is that parents should be in control of 346 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:14,400 when their their kids should be accessing different materials 347 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:16,680 and have access to different apps and smartphones and the 348 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:18,280 like. But there should be a flaw for 349 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:21,360 which it is right for every teenager at the moment that's 350 00:18:21,360 --> 00:18:23,360 13. When it comes to social media, 351 00:18:23,360 --> 00:18:26,360 that's the lowest age for, for mainstream social media. 352 00:18:26,360 --> 00:18:29,680 And when you speak to young people, when you speak to 353 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:35,080 organizations like the NSPCC, see they they don't support 354 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:39,840 withdrawing services entirely from teenagers or raising it to 355 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:42,520 something like 16. But there is a lot of emphasis 356 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:46,800 on tackling the unhealthy behaviour which emerges on them. 357 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:49,680 And this is something I'm looking at really carefully. 358 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:51,880 I realise that there'll be a lot of parents screaming into the 359 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:54,840 ether at the moment because they will have experiences which, 360 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:58,520 which, which are really painful, difficult experiences they're 361 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:00,720 going through in families. And they'll be saying, I'm out 362 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:04,160 of touch on this, but you have to understand that I'm being 363 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:08,200 asked to pass a law for every child, for every young person 364 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:10,240 and for every family in the country. 365 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:13,800 So I do so very, very carefully and mindful of what that means 366 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:17,120 because there are a lot of teenagers out there who are 367 00:19:17,120 --> 00:19:22,240 using this material in a healthy way and it is reinforcing of 368 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:24,160 them. And it's, it's, it's helping 369 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:27,080 relationships which might be distant and all these sorts of 370 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:29,720 things. So what I'm focusing on is 371 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:32,960 building the evidence base, which is which is reliable. 372 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:37,720 And then also thinking about once I've nailed down on safety, 373 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:41,920 how I move towards health and I'm spending a lot of time 374 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:48,200 trying to understand what a healthy online life means for 375 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:50,600 children. I've not heard anyone talking 376 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:52,560 about this. I hear lots of people talking 377 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:55,960 about what what health means in the offline world for young 378 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:57,760 people. We talk about exercise, we talk 379 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:01,120 about diet, we talk about social networks, we talk about 380 00:20:01,120 --> 00:20:03,720 accessing different services and boundaries and all these sorts 381 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:06,240 of things and curfews and bedtimes and things. 382 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:08,880 But we don't have that same conversation about what a 383 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:11,320 healthy childhood looks like online. 384 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:13,880 So I've been having that conversation within my 385 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:17,200 department, trying to understand where I move forward with the 386 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:22,040 agenda and what my what my agenda is for online life. 387 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:25,080 And I'm looking at things like some of the addictive nature and 388 00:20:25,120 --> 00:20:28,960 some of the apps and how we can start tackling some of the 389 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:31,960 addictive nature of the apps when it comes to young people's 390 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:34,000 use. I'm thinking of things like 391 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:36,800 sleep, which is incredibly important for young people, and 392 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:38,640 how some of these apps interfere with sleep. 393 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,640 I'm looking at things like studying and the interruption 394 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:44,040 that people have for their studies. 395 00:20:44,360 --> 00:20:47,520 And I think all of these things are things that I might be able 396 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:51,480 to do from a position of government in order to help 397 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:56,720 parents focus more on the lovely side of parenting and have less 398 00:20:56,800 --> 00:21:02,560 time wrenching phones out of kids hands and having a big row 399 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:06,240 when it comes to bedtime and constantly fretting when they're 400 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:07,840 on the phones and they're out of sight. 401 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:10,120 Yeah. Pete, can I ask you, can I ask 402 00:21:10,120 --> 00:21:13,160 you a question on that? Yes, yeah, I definitely hear it 403 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:15,120 can be. It's complicated, It's 404 00:21:15,120 --> 00:21:17,000 complicated. And one thing I had a 405 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:19,520 conversation with was a young person in my family the other 406 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:21,000 day. They're at school, they're in 407 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:24,040 secondary school and they were saying during their year 10 408 00:21:24,040 --> 00:21:28,600 maths GCSE classes, they're kids with their phones under their 409 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:31,040 workbooks and texting their friends and they're supposed to 410 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:32,880 be listening to the teacher. What do you think about that? 411 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:35,960 I don't think there is any place for smartphones in the 412 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,720 classroom. I'm categoric on that. 413 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:43,840 Unless there is, you know, a real reason why one particular 414 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:49,120 class requires it, in which case that would be an exception, not 415 00:21:49,120 --> 00:21:51,840 the rule. I want each individual school to 416 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:54,800 have the power to enforce it in the way that's right for them. 417 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:58,720 The Department of Education has done research into this, and 97% 418 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:02,720 of schools ban smartphones from use on schools already. 419 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:05,840 The only thing that people ask in addition to that is do we 420 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:11,160 pass a law that mandates that you can't have phones in 421 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:13,040 schools? I'm reluctant to do that 422 00:22:13,080 --> 00:22:15,280 because, you know, when you pass a law, you're going to make 423 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:18,560 people criminally liable. You know, if you start going 424 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:22,760 down that path, who gets fined or who gets sort of taken to 425 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:26,280 court or, you know, is it the child, is it the parent, is it 426 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:30,360 the school, is it the teacher? So when you go down that path, 427 00:22:30,360 --> 00:22:35,520 it becomes very difficult to see how using, you know, legislation 428 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:38,320 to tackle this issue takes us to a place that's really 429 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:41,400 constructive. But we do need to make sure that 430 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:43,600 there are no, no phones in schools. 431 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:46,440 And there the guidance from the Department for Education is 432 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:49,080 very, very clear that there's no place for it. 433 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:52,240 Just to say another thing, which is really obvious that almost 434 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:55,560 all of your listeners who are parents will understand is that 435 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:57,920 parents do love being in touch with kids when they're on the 436 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:00,800 way to school, on the way back from school or after school. 437 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:03,480 So they, there is a, there is a kind of acceptance that kids 438 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:06,320 need to have smartphones from a certain age and with parental 439 00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:08,200 permission in parts of their life. 440 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:11,640 Travel cards, gym cards, cards, these are all held online in 441 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:14,760 their smartphones now. Also payment systems are all 442 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:18,400 held in digital wallets now. So there's a lot of reasons why 443 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:21,120 when you're out of school, you need to have your phone with you 444 00:23:21,120 --> 00:23:23,880 or there's a reason why young people would want to have their 445 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:26,560 phones with them. So we have to be very careful 446 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:29,160 about how we do it. But I do agree with the premise 447 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:32,360 that there's probably too many kids who find a way around it 448 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,400 and they shouldn't be doing it. I just want schools to have all 449 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:37,000 the power they need to tackle it. 450 00:23:37,120 --> 00:23:39,760 And I think there are some technological solutions that I'm 451 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:43,920 exploring that could make government more assertive on 452 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:48,800 behalf of parents and teachers in achieving a smartphone free 453 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:50,680 classroom. There are some schools have done 454 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:53,200 the scheme where you put your phone in a locker, don't know 455 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:56,040 before you go into this classroom, which seems to be 456 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:59,080 working quite well. But I do know children who are 457 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:03,320 actively encouraged to use phones in the classroom as part 458 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:06,320 of their lessons, which then sends the message that that's 459 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:09,600 very welcome. We had a boy called Josh Sargent 460 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:12,640 on the podcast who is 15 years old, who agrees with you that 461 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:17,880 banning phones and banning social media for under sixteens 462 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:20,440 is not the right way to go. And he thinks that there should 463 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:23,920 be more moderation on the content that children are 464 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:26,640 accessing. And you'll know the statistic 465 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:30,360 about how many seconds it takes for a child on TikTok to access 466 00:24:30,360 --> 00:24:32,480 content that's harmful and misogynistic. 467 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:37,040 Is that within these laws that you're bringing in, will that 468 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:40,320 ban misogynistic content? What are we going to do about 469 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:45,080 the likes of Andrew Tate and these horrible masculinity 470 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:48,720 influences that are changing our children's brains and making 471 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:50,440 them see the world in a different way? 472 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:53,360 Yeah, I feel very strongly about this. 473 00:24:53,360 --> 00:24:58,120 I want young people to be exposed to material that helps 474 00:24:58,120 --> 00:25:01,400 them develop and explore all of their characteristics as young 475 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:05,320 people, not just exacerbate the vulnerabilities that young 476 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:07,120 people have. And, you know, you've you've 477 00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:10,080 framed it as as masculinity. So we're talking about boys. 478 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:14,800 And having been a boy once, I know that I was really lucky in 479 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:19,560 having a very good father figure, a male role model in my 480 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:24,040 life, my dad and I was very lucky in having a loving family. 481 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:28,600 I was also lucky that, in fact, lucky is the wrong word. 482 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:33,000 I'm very profoundly dyslexic and I have a lot of, you know, 483 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:35,040 neurological barriers to learning. 484 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:37,320 I, I, I've never found learning easy. 485 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:39,960 I left school with no usable qualifications, had to return to 486 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:43,160 secondary school when I was 25 years old and sit in a classroom 487 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:45,600 to get qualifications that needed to get me into 488 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:48,120 university. And that process of trying to 489 00:25:48,120 --> 00:25:52,960 understand why I was socially very aware and capable and 490 00:25:53,360 --> 00:25:59,040 clearly not intellectually, you know, too challenged but 491 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:02,120 struggled, you know, in so many different ways in the classroom. 492 00:26:02,120 --> 00:26:05,760 That period of sort of self exploration helped me explore 493 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:08,840 myself for all of my characteristics. 494 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:11,760 I'm also gay, for example, and that was something that I 495 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:13,160 struggled with as a young person. 496 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,240 So I went through this period growing up where I really sort 497 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:19,600 of got to know who I am as a person and all the different 498 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:21,680 facets of me. And I think it made me quite 499 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,560 resilient because when something, when I, when I 500 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,440 experienced those real vulnerabilities that teenagers, 501 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:31,280 the teenage boys experience, then I, I was always able to put 502 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:33,720 it alongside the other characteristics that I had. 503 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:36,960 And that's, I think what we should be striving for for young 504 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:40,000 boys in this country. I think we need to help them 505 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:44,240 understand that they have lots of different characteristics. 506 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:45,720 It's what makes all of us unique. 507 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,160 And they are prominent in different ways and different 508 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:50,800 people. And that anxiety and that 509 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:54,280 vulnerability, the humiliation that you sometimes feel as 510 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:56,920 adolescents, that's just one part of who you are. 511 00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:01,040 The thing that's grotesque about people like Andrew Tate is that 512 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:03,680 they plug into that one bit, that sort of sense of 513 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,080 humiliation that young boys have at different points of 514 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:10,880 adolescence, sense of vulnerability, the sense of 515 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:15,080 being sort of not, not up to, to sort of life and inadequacy and 516 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:17,200 and the like. To feed onto that one 517 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,800 characteristic and make out and make them believe that it is the 518 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:25,680 only characteristic they have is what drives, in my view, the 519 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:30,840 misogynistic behaviour that's taken root too much in society. 520 00:27:31,120 --> 00:27:33,840 And there's a lot of responses that we need to this. 521 00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:36,040 There's no one silver bullet. There's a challenge for 522 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,480 parenting, it's a challenge for schooling, it's a challenge for 523 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:40,800 society. It's certainly a challenge for 524 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,680 media, whether it be broadcast or whether it be online. 525 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,360 And it's something that we have to rise to as a society. 526 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:49,960 Specifically on Andrew Tate, you know, he has over the, in the 527 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,240 past, clearly broken the law and is being held accountable for it 528 00:27:53,360 --> 00:27:55,520 at the moment. But we have to get right the 529 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:59,120 balance for free speech and get the balance right for where 530 00:27:59,120 --> 00:28:02,200 there is misogynistic behaviour which crosses the threshold that 531 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:04,560 there is action taken. Getting that balance right is 532 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:08,440 not always easy and we can see just the Glastonbury how 533 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:12,080 difficult these decisions are to be made about free speech and 534 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:15,600 the impact it has on society and how sometimes broadcasters get 535 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:19,600 it wrong, even those who are as experienced as ABBC, let alone 536 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:22,520 other platforms who don't have this degree of experience. 537 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,480 There is never an excuse for getting it wrong, but the only 538 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:28,200 thing we can do is is learn from it and we have to learn better. 539 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:30,520 Yeah, I think that's the challenging thing, isn't it? 540 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:34,360 Because a lot of the manosphere content, as we heard from Josh 541 00:28:34,360 --> 00:28:36,560 and others, a lot of it is self help. 542 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:39,840 A lot of it is useful for these young people, obviously wrapped 543 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:43,280 up in a lot of misogyny. And, and in the act it does talk 544 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:45,480 about Remo removing that harmful content. 545 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:49,280 How is that harmful content going to be detected when some 546 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:54,080 of it's quite insidious and difficult to to really identify 547 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:56,920 and people will disagree on on so many levels? 548 00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,240 Like how does the government plan to do that when the 549 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,720 manosphere is harming so many people? 550 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:06,600 We've seen so much research about young boys who engage with 551 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:08,600 the manosphere. It impacts their mental health, 552 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:11,120 obviously, that there's an increase against violence 553 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:13,280 against women and girls. It's harmful not only to 554 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,800 themselves but to others too. How are how are you in these 555 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:20,160 social media companies going to really under the skin of that 556 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:22,400 content and weed out the bad bits? 557 00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:27,640 Well, we this government have the pledge to halve violence 558 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,560 against women and girls by over a 10 year period. 559 00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,720 And a lot of this activity is now happening online. 560 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,440 There are there are some very straightforward things that I 561 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,760 believe meet the criminal threshold and need action and 562 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:46,160 require the full force of law. And since in just in the 1011 563 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:49,160 months that I've been Secretary of State, I have introduced 564 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:52,640 legislation that outlaws intimate image abuse, 565 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:56,080 overwhelmingly affecting women, overwhelmingly affecting young 566 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,440 women. This is where men a boyfriend 567 00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,400 will post photographs compromising sexually the 568 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:05,040 explicit, usually photographs of a girlfriend online. 569 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:08,400 So the law that I passed meant that companies, social media 570 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:12,560 companies and platforms have to prove that by releasing their 571 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:17,880 algorithms to Ofcom, that their algorithms proactively root out 572 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:21,960 intimate images and stop them going online in the first place. 573 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:25,720 And then secondly, if they do make it online and a complaint 574 00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:29,320 is made, they must remove it within a reasonable time frame. 575 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:32,160 And we're talking hours and, you know, and days, not weeks and 576 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:34,600 months and all the rest of it. Otherwise they'll face very 577 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:38,200 heavy criminal sanctions. So in those sorts of areas I 578 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:42,000 have been able to be quite assertive in tackling the kind 579 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:46,400 of behaviour which is driving really hateful behaviour towards 580 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:50,720 women and is causing in some cases suicide, in other cases 581 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:53,920 self loathing and all sorts of other really negatively 582 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:56,920 reinforcing behaviour when it comes to other things. 583 00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:00,080 Just as now I've said that, let me say what, what, what part of 584 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,800 the difficulty is because algorithms are really powerful. 585 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:06,720 AI is very, very powerful. One of the things that that I 586 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,560 was exploring is why is how we don't incentivize more healthy 587 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:12,320 behaviour. But even where we have sort of 588 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:15,920 experimented in feeding young people, or it has been 589 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:19,280 experimented feeding young people with healthier content 590 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:23,880 about diet, about exercise, for example, sometimes even that 591 00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:27,600 becomes unhealthy because it becomes obsessive and people 592 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:32,360 become too too sort of engaged and too active and too obsessed 593 00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:36,480 with health that it then becomes unhealthy and starts in some 594 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,920 cases becoming leading to things like eating disorders and self 595 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:41,360 loathing about bodies and the like. 596 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:43,280 So this is always very, very delicate. 597 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:46,080 And I give that story just to explain how tricky some of these 598 00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:49,480 things are, even though it doesn't stop me acting 599 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:52,600 decisively when I believe there is a way of doing so. 600 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:55,720 And if I can just illustrate with a Third Point, a 601 00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:59,840 conversation I had with one of the very, very senior tech 602 00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:03,640 executives in one of the big mainstream social media 603 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,160 platforms. We had this to and fro about 604 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:09,200 this issue. And I said that algorithms need 605 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:13,040 to be exploring what where they where they sense there is a 606 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:17,000 vulnerability in someone, then they need to be supporting that 607 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:21,120 person with resilience building and other emotionally 608 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:23,840 developmental material, not the other way. 609 00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:25,600 And this person said, well, it's very difficult. 610 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:28,640 And I said, hang on a SEC. I said a couple of weeks earlier 611 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:32,200 I had looked at cars online because I was thinking at the 612 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:37,400 time of getting a car and then suddenly for weeks afterwards on 613 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:42,280 his product, I was being fed all sorts of adverts for cars based 614 00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:48,000 on my income, my hobbies, almost certainly understanding what I'm 615 00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:51,480 interested in as a person and putting those interests to use 616 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:54,720 to generate what would be a likely product that I might be 617 00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:56,840 interested in. I said if you can do that for 618 00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:00,000 me, you can do this. You can understand also other 619 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,680 characteristics in people and surely you can use this as a 620 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:05,040 force for good. And these are the kinds of 621 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:09,040 conversations that I'm having which dance in that grey area 622 00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:13,920 between what is tricky because healthy behaviours can sometimes 623 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:17,520 become unhealthy and what I believe is categoric. 624 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,840 And I can use the law in a very steadfast way to be. 625 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:24,000 And we need to get to a world because wouldn't it be amazing 626 00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:27,200 growing up in a world where algorithms are proactively 627 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:30,400 looking out for you and if they believe you have a 628 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:34,120 vulnerability, using the power that they have to build 629 00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:37,040 resilience and to help you through it in a benign, 630 00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:39,680 supportive way? I mean, my God, what a great 631 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:41,120 world that would be to live in online. 632 00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:42,960 So just finish off, I know you have to go soon. 633 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:44,520 So a couple more questions before we end. 634 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:48,760 Time restrictions. I think I've read about you 635 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,600 talking about the possibility of social media companies needing 636 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:55,920 or introducing time restrictions for young people on their apps. 637 00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:57,720 I think that would be a great idea. 638 00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:03,080 Lots of parents have battles in their home about getting off at 639 00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:05,280 this time. You can spend an hour and of 640 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:07,880 course those conversations will go on and I think it is the the 641 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,360 parents responsibility first and foremost. 642 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:13,840 But having restrictions from their apps and the companies 643 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:18,600 would also add to the tool to keep our children safe online. 644 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:22,960 Is this something that you think could be taken forward? 645 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:24,520 This is something I'm really interested in. 646 00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:28,120 I don't think there is one measure that's going to deal 647 00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:30,840 with the issue. What I'm looking at is a, is a, 648 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:37,639 is a package of measures which I believe would enable tech 649 00:34:37,639 --> 00:34:41,120 companies and platforms and social media companies to 650 00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:46,320 continue to engage with people of a legal age and upwards and 651 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,000 into adulthood. But to do so in a way which 652 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:53,239 respects the fact that we as a society want our young people to 653 00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:55,120 be healthy. And they want all of the 654 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:59,400 relationships and engagements they have in life to be healthy, 655 00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:01,920 nourishing ones. And that means face to face and 656 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:05,000 it means online with content that comes their way. 657 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:09,200 So I can't be really specific at the moment because I have put 658 00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:12,560 together quite a detailed package of measures which I 659 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:14,800 believe will take us a real step forward. 660 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:19,000 And not just take a step forward in nailing down the rigor with 661 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:23,960 which we keep people safe. But then take real steps forward 662 00:35:24,240 --> 00:35:27,880 towards incentivizing and delivering a much healthier, 663 00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:33,800 nutritional, safer experience for people online, for young 664 00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:38,160 people online, and will be a real assistant to parents. 665 00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:41,240 But it wouldn't involve me going into every family and trying to 666 00:35:41,240 --> 00:35:44,080 run their family for them. And I think that's what people 667 00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:46,160 need. And if I take the first steps in 668 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:49,280 this direction, the first pledge I make is that they will be 669 00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:53,080 meaningful steps. The second pledge is that I will 670 00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:54,840 not see this as the end of the road. 671 00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:59,240 Because I think with the scale and speed of innovation in 672 00:35:59,240 --> 00:36:03,200 technology and on platforms, then we need to keep up with 673 00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:05,440 them in the way that we adapt our relationship between 674 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:08,600 government, families, children, people, our citizens and those 675 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:10,120 companies as well. And we need to move forward 676 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:13,200 together, not just be always lagging behind the companies. 677 00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:18,240 From the 25th of July these these rules are enforced. 678 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:22,360 Can you give us an example of what a company has told you they 679 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:24,680 are planning to do from later on in this month? 680 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:27,640 Yeah, that's right. From the 20, these new powers 681 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:29,240 come online. This isn't coming out of the 682 00:36:29,240 --> 00:36:31,600 blue for tech companies. They've known this is coming for 683 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:34,920 a very long time and Ofcom has been working with them. 684 00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:36,480 I've been engaging with them to ask them. 685 00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:42,280 So to give you 1, to give you one example, there is a lot of 686 00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:46,600 now age verification technology which goes on young people's 687 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:49,680 faces. It's not 100% categoric yet. 688 00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:51,600 It's not appropriate for every platform. 689 00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:55,560 There are other there are other technologies which assess 690 00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:58,360 people's faces. You can also use some ID card 691 00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:01,520 systems which match biometrics to ID cards. 692 00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:05,320 Each company has got to find the right way of verifying someone 693 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:07,960 age that's right for them. And I've been to one of the 694 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:11,360 companies that's been doing this and I've been I went with a 695 00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:13,120 bunch of young people and got them to test it. 696 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:16,160 I got them to put masks on because you can get some very 697 00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:18,600 weirdly human like masks of adults. 698 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,280 It's all straight through it. And the technology didn't allow 699 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:24,160 them through the age gate that was before them. 700 00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:25,880 So it will be a big step forward. 701 00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:27,720 Is it going to be 100% effective? 702 00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:31,160 No. But even if we get, you know, I 703 00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:34,240 don't know, even if we get near 100, even if we get to 90%, it's 704 00:37:34,240 --> 00:37:36,440 a big step forward. And I just want to reassure 705 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,280 people that I'm looking at about what government can do. 706 00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:43,680 We're in an age where the gov.uk app opens up a whole series of 707 00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:45,960 public services to them at their fingertips. 708 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:48,760 So I'm now developing this technology in house within in 709 00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:52,280 the government and I'm trying to think really creatively about 710 00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:56,520 how we can offer some services and facilities to the tech 711 00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:00,800 companies that could be more categoric in nailing down the 712 00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:03,680 age verification and how government can be a partner. 713 00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:07,200 And in return I would have higher expectations for the them 714 00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:09,080 to implement it and keep people safe online. 715 00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:11,840 OK, let's let's end with talking about support. 716 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:15,520 So the ACT mentions that children will be supported if 717 00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:17,480 they have seen harmful content online. 718 00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:21,600 Who will be responsible for for giving them that support, and 719 00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:25,880 how and how quickly will they be able to access that support? 720 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:28,400 Well, one of the things that we're doing is rolling out 721 00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:30,600 mental health support in every secondary school. 722 00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:34,440 We're also returning or creating mental health hubs in as many 723 00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:36,400 communities up and down the country as we can. 724 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:38,720 We know that we have real challenges. 725 00:38:38,720 --> 00:38:41,520 We almost have an epidemic of mental health challenges because 726 00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:44,600 of post COVID, because of social media, because of an ever 727 00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:48,200 changing world and young people are experiencing things that no 728 00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:52,880 other generation has pressures and influences and we need to 729 00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:54,680 make sure that all the support is there for them. 730 00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:56,920 So we're firstly putting it there in school. 731 00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:59,920 We're also reinforcing the mental health that's available, 732 00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:01,920 support that's available in communities. 733 00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:05,360 And if parents believe that they are being impacted by this 734 00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:07,920 material material, they should speak to the school to see 735 00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:10,760 whether they can access some of the services there and certainly 736 00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:15,560 contact their GPS and others other other gateways into health 737 00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:17,560 and mental health support as quickly as possible. 738 00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:21,720 And this is a a big change, it's a massive change. 739 00:39:21,720 --> 00:39:24,720 I'm speaking to people and they're not, they're not aware 740 00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:26,480 of this, this change that's happening. 741 00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:28,000 So there's a massive comms campaign. 742 00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:30,640 Obviously this is part of it. What are your plans for making 743 00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:34,320 sure parents and children understand their rights and 744 00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:37,200 protections under the ACT? What What's your communication 745 00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:39,480 strategy look like to make sure every parent and child knows 746 00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:40,680 about the changes that are coming ahead? 747 00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:44,080 I want every single parent to understand what's available out 748 00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:46,680 there and what the law says. Again, it's one of these things 749 00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:49,440 where we've all inherited knowledge from growing up and 750 00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:51,320 understanding the law as we go through life. 751 00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:53,120 But this is all very new for people. 752 00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:55,800 But these are very powerful new laws. 753 00:39:56,240 --> 00:39:59,560 I've spoken about it a lot on the TVI try and land lots of 754 00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:02,040 messages in the media, but sometimes it's really difficult 755 00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:04,360 to land something because it gets obliterated by whatever 756 00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:07,760 else is happening. But as we as we approach the 757 00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:10,080 25th. Of This month, when these new 758 00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:13,560 powers coming come on board, I want as many people to to 759 00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:15,520 understand as possible. So my department is working 760 00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:19,280 really hard to figure out how we can get to as many people as 761 00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:21,480 possible. Me being here on your show is 762 00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:23,720 part of that. I know that that gets to almost 763 00:40:23,720 --> 00:40:25,360 every parent, because what parent would not be? 764 00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:29,840 The same podcast, of course. Of course. 765 00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:34,480 So, so, so I'm trying as much to be available to explain these 766 00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:36,720 things, but also explain what my approach is and what this 767 00:40:36,720 --> 00:40:38,840 government's approach is and what we'll be doing into the 768 00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:40,160 future because this is just the start. 769 00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:43,160 Yeah. So, Peter, thank you so much. 770 00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:46,160 You're a busy man. So thank you. 771 00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:48,280 We really do appreciate you. You coming on the podcast. 772 00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:50,640 I believe you. You know, I believe you. 773 00:40:51,240 --> 00:40:55,400 I feel your passion and we are here to support, you know what, 774 00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:57,880 what we can do to make sure the messages get to people. 775 00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:02,080 And I really hope that these changes will have the intended 776 00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:03,760 impact. You know, we started off talking 777 00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:06,360 about some of the statistics. This is serious stuff. 778 00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:10,080 Parents are worried. It's good to see the action and 779 00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:14,000 I, I hope that we can implement the action so the social media 780 00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:16,400 companies do better and protect our children online. 781 00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:18,560 Any final words before you go? Well, I. 782 00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:20,600 Just want to say thank you for having me on. 783 00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:22,760 I also want to say thank you for your final words there, because 784 00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:25,560 the fact that you'd say that you believe me means the world to 785 00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:28,760 me. But it also is very motivational 786 00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:32,080 when Someone Like You, with all your experience and the 787 00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:34,960 connection you have to such an amazing audience, says that, it 788 00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:38,280 really, really makes me want to go away and deliver. 789 00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:41,200 Deliver for the kids, deliver for parents, so that we can 790 00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:44,160 start to create the healthier world that we're all striving 791 00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:46,960 for in an online world as well as just in an offline one. 792 00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:48,800 Lovely. Great way to end. 793 00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:50,160 Thank you so much, Peter. Take care. 794 00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:51,360 Thank you. Thanks a lot.