1 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:10,160 Hello and welcome back to To Be a Boy with Me, Jolie Braley. 2 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:16,560 And me, Elliot Ray. So Elliot, last week we had a 15 3 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:21,880 year old secondary school student who is writing a book on 4 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:28,080 red pill masculinity called Josh Sargent on the show and wow, he 5 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:32,159 blew my mind. I was so impressed with the way 6 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:36,320 that he articulates himself. But I think he just, for me, he 7 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:39,600 added a whole new dimension to this conversation we've been 8 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:44,320 having about boys and their exposures to the online world 9 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:47,040 and and the damage it is doing to them. 10 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:49,000 What did you take from the episode I? 11 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:52,920 Thought he was incredible. I've had so many messages and so 12 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:55,400 many people have been questioning their abilities, 13 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:57,200 their self esteem, their life choices. 14 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:00,200 We didn't mean to make you feel uncomfortable about your about 15 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:01,640 yourself. OK, You're, I'm sure you're 16 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:04,840 doing very well in life, but Josh was so eloquent and so 17 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:07,120 knowledgeable as a 15 year old. I think a lot of people were 18 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:09,560 questioning what they were doing at 15 years old. 19 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:11,360 Yeah. One thing that he said that I 20 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:14,480 think I've been thinking about quite a lot, especially with my 21 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:17,080 9 year old. Josh was talking about the fact 22 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:22,120 that to stop your child having a phone, OK, you may be then 23 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:24,520 stopping them accessing this information, but what you're 24 00:01:24,520 --> 00:01:27,120 doing then is isolating them from their social groups and 25 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:32,560 their their friends at school. And looking at the research, 44% 26 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:36,600 of children have a phone at age 9 and 91% by the age of 11. 27 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:39,720 So really when you go to secondary school, the majority 28 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:43,000 of kids have a phone, which means they're going to see this 29 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:44,800 content whether we like it or not. 30 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:48,200 And as Josh was saying, we can't stop them seeing the content, 31 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:51,320 but we can and we should be having really open conversations 32 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:53,920 so we're understanding where they're at and what they're 33 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:57,120 seeing and how they're feeling about it and help helping them 34 00:01:57,120 --> 00:01:59,880 to process. He did seem quite keen on the 35 00:01:59,880 --> 00:02:03,080 idea that we should regulate the content a bit more like we do 36 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:05,200 with TV, like we do with the radio. 37 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:08,120 The Ofcom should be involved. They should be looking at 38 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:12,880 misogynistic, racist content and ensuring that the social media 39 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:15,800 platforms are held responsible for that content and forced to 40 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:18,800 take it down, which is something we've heard a couple of times 41 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:21,640 previously. And it will be interesting when 42 00:02:21,640 --> 00:02:24,480 we interviewed Peter Kyle, the Secretary of State for Business 43 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:27,520 and Technology, to ask him about what the government is planning 44 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:30,480 to do on this. But I have started to change by 45 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:33,560 thinking a little bit around technology in particular, 46 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:37,880 because I sort of also feel that we're being quite paternalistic 47 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:39,800 in saying to kids, you can't have phones. 48 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:43,480 I mean, I my phone is stuck to me almost constantly. 49 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:48,440 And we know that many adults are not very bounded with the way 50 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:50,600 they use technology. And to then say to their 51 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:54,280 children, well, you can't have a phone while probably staring at 52 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:58,320 their phone while saying it just feels like we maybe got the 53 00:02:58,320 --> 00:02:59,960 dynamics a little bit wrong here. 54 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:05,200 And you and I attended South by Southwest this week and we did a 55 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:09,280 panel on the Superman myth, which we really enjoyed and is a 56 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:13,240 topic for another time. But we went to see a couple of 57 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:17,160 talks on some of these issues around boys and what's happening 58 00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:20,120 in the online world. And I found a guy totally 59 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:22,200 forgotten his name, but a guy on one of the panels really 60 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:25,120 interesting. He talked about they'd done an 61 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:28,520 experiment where they had got a group of kids and taught them 62 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:33,680 critical thinking and they had shown them content on the 63 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:36,240 Internet and then discussed it with them afterwards. 64 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:38,560 So what did you take from this? Why do you think that? 65 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:41,200 Do you think this is accurate? Could this maybe not be 66 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:42,920 accurate? Could you think about it like 67 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:44,720 this? And they found that with the 68 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:48,760 kids that they taught critical thinking skills to over a period 69 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:51,960 of time, they had higher rates and mental health, high rates of 70 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:54,360 happiness. And they were much better at 71 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:57,000 looking at content on the Internet and to seeing it for 72 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:01,080 what it was, rather than immediately accepting it as just 73 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:03,640 fact. So maybe there's something here 74 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:07,640 around schools and the curriculum adapting so that we 75 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:10,360 are better at teaching kids critical thinking. 76 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:14,120 I think so and Movember and Beyond Equality, they have a 77 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:18,040 really good guide to talking to your children about the online 78 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:19,720 world. But I think some of the 79 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:23,680 principles that are talked about in that guide are applicable for 80 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:26,880 everyday life, not just the online world, but how do you 81 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:29,040 think about friendships? How do you think about 82 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:31,200 relationships? How do you think about school 83 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:33,600 life, home life, you know, growing up, whatever it is. 84 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:37,320 I was reflecting on the conversation with Josh just 85 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:41,240 about the amount of information that we all are consuming young 86 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:44,760 people, but all of us, but for especially for young people 87 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:47,320 where their brains haven't really developed until the kind 88 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:51,000 of mid these and all this information, whether it's good 89 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:55,360 or bad, but just the amount of things we are consuming is 90 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:57,520 ridiculous. I was having a look and there's 91 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:00,160 a study by the American Psychological Association, the 92 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:04,000 APA found that exposure to constant news, especially 93 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:07,560 negative news via social media leads to elevated stress levels, 94 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:10,080 particularly amongst teens and young young adults. 95 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:15,400 And a Pew Research Center report in 2020 found that 64% of 96 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:18,200 Americans and a similar proportion of young people in 97 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:21,480 the UK said they feel overwhelmed by the amount of 98 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:23,560 news and information available today. 99 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:26,680 I feel overwhelmed by the amount of news and information that I'm 100 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:28,320 taking in. And as you were talking about, 101 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:31,440 Jodie, about our own habits, I'm not great at all. 102 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:35,520 Like, I'm addicted to my phone. I can happily say I am addicted 103 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:37,720 to my phone. And it is. 104 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:41,360 It's really bad for my parenting, but it's really, 105 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:44,360 really bad for me as well because I have a good life. 106 00:05:44,840 --> 00:05:47,480 Like I really have a good life. I have great family. 107 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:50,320 I enjoy my, my work, you know, I enjoy myself. 108 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:52,760 I feel very lucky and privileged and I'm happy. 109 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:57,720 But when I go online, some of that joy is taken away and I 110 00:05:57,720 --> 00:05:59,560 recognize it. I know it. 111 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:03,320 But the pull of social media, the pull of the constant news, 112 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:06,440 the pull of emails coming in and opportunities and all these 113 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:10,000 things, 100% no. I'm addicted to it and it is one 114 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:12,520 of my things to work on in terms of I need to fix this because 115 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:15,280 it's not good for my parenting, it's not good for the the bond 116 00:06:15,280 --> 00:06:18,120 with my children, but first and foremost, it's just not good for 117 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:20,080 my own mental health and how I feel about myself. 118 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:25,400 Josh knew what inflation is, and he's 15. 15 years old. 119 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:27,560 He was like, inflation's about 3%. 120 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:31,280 I was like, is it I'd, I mean, I, I, I'm still not even sure 121 00:06:31,280 --> 00:06:33,040 what inflation is, if I'm honest. 122 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:35,200 He was quoting the news from like last week. 123 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:38,200 He was like, yeah, it's 3.5%, it's up 3.5, something like 124 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:38,800 that. Who knows? 125 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:41,520 But I couldn't believe it. I was like, you're 15 years old. 126 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:45,000 Yeah, exactly. And he knows what misogyny is. 127 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:47,520 I still can't even spell misogyny properly. 128 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:51,160 I still have to do spell check. And I've been working in that 129 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:54,600 field for 10 years. I was just so blown away. 130 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:58,280 But I'm, I am continuously blown away by how intelligent this 131 00:06:58,280 --> 00:07:03,560 generation are. But I think I also want to say 132 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:06,360 to him, just be a kid while you can. 133 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:10,120 Literally exactly. Because when you're an adult, 134 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:12,960 shit gets real. When you've got a mortgage to 135 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:16,040 pay and you have to go to work every day and maybe you've got 136 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:19,840 children and then you have elderly parents and like shit 137 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:21,840 gets real really, really quickly. 138 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:25,800 And so I am just so happy that for the majority of my 139 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:28,800 childhood, I was able to be a child and I didn't worry too 140 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:31,160 much about the wider stuff that was going on. 141 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:34,080 Maybe when I became like 1718, then I started becoming more 142 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:37,600 aware of wider social issues and maybe the economy and some of 143 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:40,440 the bad things that can that can happen to you as you as you get 144 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:43,400 older. But at that age, I was literally 145 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:48,640 just thinking about girlfriends, music, football, that was it. 146 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:50,880 That's. What you should, I really think 147 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:53,320 that's what you should just be thinking about. 148 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:56,680 I, I almost found it really quite sad. 149 00:07:56,680 --> 00:08:00,760 And he admitted that it does feel like a blockage in his 150 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:03,360 brain because he's only 15. He doesn't have the life 151 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:07,600 experience to translate this type of news, but yet he's 152 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:12,000 absorbing it every single day. And that stuff starts to back 153 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:13,840 up. And when it's just constant 154 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:18,800 negative news about financial crises, about conflicts across 155 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:22,440 the world, about inflation, about the fact that kids are not 156 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:24,480 going to be able to get on the housing ladder when they're 157 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:27,800 older, inevitably it's just going to make you feel really 158 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:30,600 bloody depressed it. Takes away your joy and 159 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:34,360 ultimately sometimes I think problems that we create them, 160 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:37,080 they're maybe not going to become real. 161 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:39,679 Like a lot of the things that I worry about don't actually 162 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:43,799 happen and we go through our day-to-day lives and we're all 163 00:08:43,799 --> 00:08:45,600 good. And so sometimes just that 164 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:48,120 that's that overload of information can get yourself 165 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:50,160 into a spiral where you're overthinking a little bit too 166 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:52,480 much and it takes away the joy from today. 167 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:55,720 So. So we also, as well as South by 168 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:58,240 Southwest have seen a lot of you actually earlier over the last 169 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:03,880 two weeks. We were at the dad strike on 170 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:07,960 Wednesday, which was brilliant. It was in London, it was held by 171 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:10,440 the dad shift. It was to campaign and push the 172 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:14,320 government on paternity leave, which is the Western Europe and 173 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:17,720 asked for six weeks, potentially about 90% of salary, which is a 174 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:20,640 campaign that we've both been involved with for a very, very 175 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:24,080 long time. We both spoke at it and the turn 176 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:28,280 out was Gray. But also because I found it 177 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:31,800 really interesting the response to the dead strike. 178 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:33,560 Obviously running pregnant and screwed. 179 00:09:33,560 --> 00:09:36,040 I organized the March of the Mummies and I organized the 180 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:39,120 March of the Mummies in 2017 when the turn out was about 181 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:43,120 there's about 350 people attended and then organized it 182 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:50,040 again in 2022 when 15,000 parents attended in 10 cities 183 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:53,120 across the UK. Now the first time we did March 184 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:55,760 the mummies, the response I have to say was quite lackluster. 185 00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:58,440 There was very little. There was a bit of coverage in 186 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:01,280 the press. The government just completely 187 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:04,480 ignored us. The second time we did it, it 188 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:07,880 was much bigger. So there was coverage across all 189 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:11,600 of the press, but again, the government continued to ignore 190 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:12,640 us. Now, of course, it was called 191 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:15,000 March, the Moments, and it was predominantly women that were 192 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:16,640 marching and it was organized by women. 193 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:20,560 The Dad strike had about the same attendance that we did in 194 00:10:20,560 --> 00:10:26,640 2017 and yet there has been a very different tone to this 195 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:30,520 response. The dad shift where contacted by 196 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:34,000 ministers and invited into Parliament before the strike to 197 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:36,000 have a conversation about paternity leave. 198 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:39,160 That never happened for us. They were invited on Loose 199 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:41,640 Women. They got absolutely loads of 200 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:44,400 coverage. I have to say, and I it's not 201 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:47,560 just me that has said this, It's been pointed out to me by many 202 00:10:47,560 --> 00:10:50,120 of the women who've been also involved in this movement for a 203 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:54,040 long time. The IT felt very much like, oh, 204 00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:58,080 the men are asking. Now that the men are asking, we 205 00:10:58,080 --> 00:11:00,040 really should take this seriously. 206 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:04,600 And I am absolutely not saying that the men shouldn't ask. 207 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:09,760 And I'm not criticizing anybody. I am just saying it really does 208 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:13,840 demonstrate to me how important it is that we have men. 209 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:16,800 And I will point out that these are white men from a very 210 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:19,960 privileged position suddenly asking for something. 211 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:22,680 And suddenly the tone does seem to shift. 212 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:27,760 And I just one of their thing as well that I've noticed this week 213 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:31,920 was that Luke Charters, who is actually my MP, is going on 214 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:33,240 paternity leave. He's a very new MP. 215 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:37,240 He's 29 years old and he is taking 4 weeks paternity leave 216 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:40,560 and he has asked for what's known as locum cover to deal 217 00:11:40,560 --> 00:11:45,400 with his constituents work. Estella Creasy also did this. 218 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:48,280 Wanted to take my turn to leave requested locum cover. 219 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:50,120 It was granted to her the first time around. 220 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:53,560 The second time round it was absolutely refused to her. 221 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:58,160 So she then was left with this choice between being a mum and 222 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:01,240 spending the quality time shoot with her baby or or looking 223 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:03,680 after her constituents. That was because she wasn't 224 00:12:03,680 --> 00:12:05,880 granted the slogan cover with Luke Charters. 225 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:09,440 It was granted straight away and he will be taking four weeks 226 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:11,560 paternity leave. And I also read his article 227 00:12:11,560 --> 00:12:14,840 recently about this in the Guardian which was titled I am a 228 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:18,680 Dad 1st and an MP second. And I thought no woman, no 229 00:12:18,680 --> 00:12:22,320 female MP could ever say I am a mother 1st and MP second. 230 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:24,840 They will be absolutely lambasted. 231 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:27,800 The other women that took maternity leave over that 232 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:32,040 parliament was Siobhan Bailey and Theo Clark and they both 233 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:36,920 received so much abuse that they had to contact the place. 234 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:40,640 It was just incessant abuse from their constituents. 235 00:12:40,680 --> 00:12:45,200 And Siobhan Bailey was even somebody posted a poo to her in 236 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:48,360 a box. They left a poo outside her 237 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:52,080 constituency office in a box. That's how bad it got. 238 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:55,840 Luke Charter says in this article that everybody has been 239 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:57,640 really supportive. He's had lots of people 240 00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:01,040 congratulate him. And he said there was one person 241 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:04,360 who messaged and said something like, well, why are you not 242 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:08,800 doing your work as an MP? And I thought the tone is so 243 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:11,440 different. Yeah, no, I think I'm so glad 244 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:14,480 you raised this because I want to have frank, candid 245 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:16,440 conversations. I completely agree with you. 246 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:18,640 I think there's so many things to say. 247 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:23,400 First of all, I think it does highlight the need for male 248 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:28,440 allies and particularly white male privileged allies, because 249 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:31,720 when those people stand up and say something, unfortunately 250 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:35,520 they're more likely to be heard. And so I think through this, 251 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:39,040 what we've learned is that right now we live in a world that 252 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:43,800 still values characteristics and associates some people with 253 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:48,640 power and privilege and access, and their voice holds more 254 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:50,760 weight when it comes to so many different issues. 255 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:55,920 So we do need more men, more white privileged men to speak up 256 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:59,880 on a range of different issues, not just paternity leave, not 257 00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:04,680 just gender equality, but social justice first and foremost. 258 00:14:04,680 --> 00:14:09,960 Also think secondly, it's interesting to understand like 259 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:14,760 why this is the case. Why is it that that has happened 260 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:19,360 with this paternity campaign? But why is it that we as a 261 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:24,680 society value men's voices more? So Marianne Seacart's got a book 262 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:27,480 called The Authority Gap and it is an incredible book. 263 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:31,640 I would say it's probably the book around gender equality and 264 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:34,320 women's experiences in the workplace that has changed like 265 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:37,280 my thinking the most. And I've interviewed her, met 266 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:40,400 her a couple of times. She's she's incredible and she 267 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:42,840 talks quite a lot about historically men have been in 268 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:45,600 positions of power. The patriarchy has put men in 269 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:48,480 positions of power in parliament, in leadership 270 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:52,320 organisations, in the home. They have taken up more space in 271 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:54,480 movies, they have more speaking lines. 272 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:56,920 They have more control in the household. 273 00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:59,200 They want TV more. There's more male critics, more 274 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:01,920 male colonists. So we have been socialized to 275 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:04,680 believe that men should be in positions of power. 276 00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:07,480 And interestingly, when it comes to parents, we are more likely 277 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:12,280 to overestimate our son's IQ and underestimate our daughter's IQ. 278 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:15,800 And there's lots of research that shows how children 279 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:18,920 internalize that and how they think about themselves as well. 280 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:23,360 And so Mary will talk about the fact that there's a lot of 281 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:25,440 research going into this and there's lots of research that 282 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:30,120 shows that we men and women will question a woman's authority 283 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:32,560 more. We will interrupt women more. 284 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:37,320 We will assume a man's competence until he proves us 285 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:41,760 otherwise, and we will assume a woman's incompetence until they 286 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:46,920 prove us otherwise and that we are more influenced by a man's 287 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:48,800 view. And she showed that even in 288 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:51,400 gender, mixed gender discussions, men dominate 289 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:55,040 conversations. And in work meetings, women are 290 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:58,280 interrupted 2.6 times more often than men. 291 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:00,600 And she gave an example, a really, really good example, to 292 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:03,520 show that this isn't just in regards to your level of 293 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:07,120 seniority in the workplace. So she sat down with Supreme 294 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:11,560 Court judges and she found that when it comes to female judges, 295 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:14,560 they are interrupted 4 times more than their male 296 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:16,760 counterparts. And so some people may think, 297 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:18,600 OK, interrupting is a trivial thing. 298 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:21,080 That's a trivial example. But I think what interrupting 299 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:26,080 shows is my opinion and what I've got to say means more than 300 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:29,080 you, means I have the power to interrupt you and cut off what 301 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:31,280 you're saying it means. What you're saying is not that 302 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:33,480 important. And especially in a group 303 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:37,040 setting, that is ultimately disempowering and disrespectful. 304 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:39,960 And in her research, she thinks she talks about what that means 305 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:43,000 in terms of how people show up. So Mary was talking about the 306 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:46,520 fact that because that is the case, a lot of women will either 307 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:49,160 show up and be quieter because they know they're going to be 308 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:52,600 interrupted, or will be more assertive and be more confident. 309 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:55,040 Now, we could say to women, OK, be more confident and be more 310 00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:56,960 assertive. But the problem with that, as 311 00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:00,640 Mary says, is that when we do that, women are more unlikeable 312 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:03,400 because we don't like women to be too loud and too confident 313 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:06,040 and too assertive when it comes to likability. 314 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:09,240 Likability is more important to women when it comes to 315 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:10,920 progression than it is important to men. 316 00:17:11,599 --> 00:17:16,119 So I think we need to like, obviously fix the system around 317 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:17,800 that. We need to increase 318 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:23,400 understanding of the authority gap, understand that for men and 319 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:26,680 women, but predominantly for men, have really been socialized 320 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:31,120 to respect a man's opinion more, to listen to him, to value his 321 00:17:31,120 --> 00:17:34,080 opinion, to see him as a leader, to see him assume he's in a 322 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:36,960 position of power. And when it comes to what's 323 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:39,680 happened with this, with this campaign, I think some of it is 324 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:43,680 born out of that. It's that when these men speak, 325 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:47,040 we want to listen to them more. We want to value their opinion 326 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:48,760 and stuff like that. And I think it's sad. 327 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:52,400 I think it's an indication of why there was a lack of female 328 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:54,920 representation in some senior roles as well as the motherhood 329 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:59,360 penalty and other things. But I think this bias in who we 330 00:17:59,360 --> 00:18:04,000 give authority to, who we value their opinion, who we interrupt, 331 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:07,360 who we see as leaders, who we trust and believe is, is very 332 00:18:07,360 --> 00:18:09,720 much there. And rethinking that and 333 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:12,160 challenging that is so important. 334 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:15,400 And yes, I'm so glad you brought it up because I think the easier 335 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:20,280 thing would have been not to. But I think it's really 336 00:18:20,360 --> 00:18:24,000 important to confront these conversations and say we can 337 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:27,800 celebrate progress, but also we can reflect on the reality of 338 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:29,680 how we get to certain places as well. 339 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:33,160 We also know that when men become fathers, they get pay 340 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:36,600 rises and promotions because they are seen as more committed 341 00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:41,040 to their job because they will now have a child to provide for. 342 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:43,920 Whereas when women become mothers, they're seen as 343 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:47,120 distracted and less committed to their job because they have a 344 00:18:47,120 --> 00:18:49,760 child to care for. And Stella? 345 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:54,360 Really says that she experienced this, that when she had her 346 00:18:54,360 --> 00:18:57,280 first baby, she was told by people within the labour 347 00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:00,440 movement, oh, it's probably best you don't go for any of the more 348 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:02,960 senior roles now. It's probably best you sort of 349 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:07,080 stay in your lane because you're now a mom and, you know, so 350 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:11,160 that's obviously going to affect your ability to do your job and. 351 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:15,080 Yeah, we're, we're seeing that Luke Charters feels very 352 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:20,120 confident to say I'm a dad 1st and MP second and clearly 353 00:19:20,120 --> 00:19:22,680 doesn't believe that that's going to have a negative impact 354 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:25,600 on his ability to progress within the labour movement. 355 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:28,760 So, you know, I am really grateful to Luke Charters for 356 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:32,800 taking paternity leave and for making taking that stand because 357 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:36,280 without people like him saying they're going to take paternity 358 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:37,560 leave, nothing is going to change. 359 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:39,320 So this is nothing against Luke Charters. 360 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:42,920 It's just always very interesting to me, these 361 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:46,680 different tones and the way people react to different people 362 00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:48,720 asking, yeah, exactly the same thing. 363 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:50,680 They do, they do. You know, I think I've seen that 364 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:53,800 bicy in my own life. I remember going to to meetings 365 00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:57,320 with my manager who was a woman who was very much more CD than 366 00:19:57,320 --> 00:19:59,000 me. I was her PA really. 367 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:02,920 And going to meetings with external clients and people 368 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:05,000 looking at me and talking to me. I think I'm here to take the 369 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:06,320 minutes, mate. Like I don't know what you're 370 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:08,880 talking about, but they would assume that I am. 371 00:20:09,120 --> 00:20:13,040 Person in charge and I worked with a car company last year and 372 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:16,800 they did some some customer feedback and they found that in 373 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:21,640 their showrooms the feedback was that when a man and a woman 374 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:24,640 husband or wife or partners going to buy a car. 375 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:28,840 The feedback from the woman was that the sales assistant, which 376 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:32,880 is generally going to be a man, would talk to their partner, the 377 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:35,120 man, even if the woman was buying the car. 378 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:39,440 And so that really put put a lot of customers off because the 379 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:41,240 woman was like, look, I'm here to buy the car, OK? 380 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:44,120 Of course, decision we're making together because I, I value his 381 00:20:44,120 --> 00:20:46,360 opinion, of course, but ultimately I'm going to be 382 00:20:46,360 --> 00:20:48,400 driving the car. So I am going to be the one 383 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:50,200 that's making the ultimate decision. 384 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:52,560 I'm not going to come here. I'll rather go somewhere else 385 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:56,400 where I feel respected. So because that car company knew 386 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:59,560 they were potentially using customers, they invested in 387 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:02,560 training to help their sales assistants make sure they're 388 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:06,120 reducing that bias and really finding out, OK, who's buying 389 00:21:06,120 --> 00:21:09,040 the car, who's decision maker or just talking to both parties if 390 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:13,200 they don't know. But it took profit and money for 391 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:15,920 them to take that stand and say we need to address that. 392 00:21:16,120 --> 00:21:18,640 But it happens all the time. We've all seen it. 393 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:21,920 You know, if you're a man at work or in life, you've 394 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:24,360 experienced it. I would say as a black man, I've 395 00:21:24,360 --> 00:21:28,280 experienced it as well, like being a minority within a room, 396 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:31,040 especially in my like, more junior years as well. 397 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:34,520 You definitely feel like you're not your, your voice doesn't 398 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:37,600 carry that weight. I would say as I've become more 399 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:39,800 senior and older, I don't feel that anymore. 400 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:43,480 Mary's research says otherwise. She says that even when women do 401 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:46,240 become more senior, that doesn't take away the authority gap. 402 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:49,040 But do you feel like Jodie, do you feel like sometimes you 403 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:50,200 don't get listened to because you're a woman? 404 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:51,520 Like even now with what you've done. 405 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:54,160 No, not anymore. Actually, I, I definitely have 406 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:56,680 experienced all the things that you were talking about earlier 407 00:21:56,680 --> 00:22:00,520 in my career where, you know, I would be in charge and a man 408 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:03,680 would come in and they would only speak to the man then, not 409 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:05,520 to me. In fact, I did some work in 410 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:10,280 Moscow for a while ago and I went with my partner because we 411 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:12,240 were both actually working at the same company. 412 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:16,480 Don't ever do that, by the way. And we, I was leading the 413 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:20,520 projects and then it's like nobody would speak to me there. 414 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:24,200 They wouldn't even look at me. They would only look at Tom. 415 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:27,880 But no, not anymore, I think. I think I've reached a point as 416 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:31,240 well in my career where I don't people don't tend to ignore me 417 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:34,840 from speaking, which feels feels good, doesn't it? 418 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:36,760 I think now they get the red carpet out for you, Joey, don't 419 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:38,360 they? I mean, I've seen people meet 420 00:22:38,360 --> 00:22:41,280 Joey, get very nervous. I've seen people make you get 421 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:42,840 very starstruck. They're like, Oh my gosh, it's. 422 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:45,080 Ridiculous, though, isn't. It it's Joey. 423 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:49,720 Who's totally ridiculous? It's yeah, but it's like, you 424 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:51,920 know, it takes a long time to get there and you can be held 425 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:57,400 back on the way because people are not taking me seriously. 426 00:22:58,000 --> 00:22:59,520 Percent. And that that feeling, I know 427 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,240 what it feels like to be the only person in the room and feel 428 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:06,120 like everything that I say is going to be scrutinized. 429 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:08,800 I don't want to sound stupid. I don't want to say the wrong 430 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:10,800 thing. You doubt yourself and what 431 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:13,520 happens then is you, you spend all your brain space 432 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:16,320 overthinking about what you're going to say and overthinking 433 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:18,680 about the dynamics in the room and who you are and how they're 434 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,960 thinking about you, what you're wearing and how they judging you 435 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:24,160 and all this stuff. You spend so much brain space 436 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:27,200 thinking that that it takes away from actually just saying what 437 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:29,360 you want to say. And there've been so many times 438 00:23:29,360 --> 00:23:31,760 in a meeting, I've had a point been overthinking. 439 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:34,080 I didn't say it, someone else says it and it's a really, 440 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:35,640 really good point. And I think, bloody hell, if I 441 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:37,920 was in my own head, it would be fine. 442 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:42,280 What I, what I find now is really interesting is that I 443 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:45,280 feel like I have two experiences in my life, Not all the time, 444 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:50,360 but often is that I'll go to an event or I'll be somewhere and 445 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:52,840 you know, I might be a guest speaker or a keynote speaker or 446 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:54,600 whatever. So people will treat me really, 447 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:59,000 really well, like loads of respect and they will show me 448 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:02,640 their best self, which is incredible and it's really, 449 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,560 really nice and whatnot. But then often I'm in public 450 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:09,560 spaces with some of the same kind of people. 451 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:11,640 And because they don't know me, they don't know who I am, they 452 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,720 don't know my personality or what I do for work, they still 453 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:20,120 look at me with suspicion. Years ago, 2019, I was, I went 454 00:24:20,120 --> 00:24:24,240 to the UNUK Awards and I got AUN Women UK Change Maker Award and 455 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:26,960 it was incredible. There was a dinner in Mayfair 456 00:24:27,360 --> 00:24:32,160 and we were celebrating. My wife was there, did a speech, 457 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:35,160 we had drinks, had food. It was really, really good. 458 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:38,120 And it was a celebration and I felt great and you know, people 459 00:24:38,120 --> 00:24:40,280 were were celebrating me and whatnot. 460 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:42,120 It was amazing. Bear in mind there's probably 461 00:24:42,120 --> 00:24:44,800 only three or four black people in in the room at this point. 462 00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:47,480 I get on the train and I get to Houston. 463 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:50,280 I get on the train and I sit there. 464 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:51,680 My wife's sitting on the other side. 465 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:55,560 The train is packed, right? People are standing up, but no 466 00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:58,480 one was sitting next to me on the train. 467 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:02,000 And I remember thinking, wow, this is so interesting. 468 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:06,320 So I'm about 6 foot black guy. You know, I have an earring. 469 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:07,880 If I've got my haircut, I've got to sit in my hair. 470 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:11,800 You know, people in one instance will celebrate me, but then when 471 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:14,240 they see me in public they will be scared. 472 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:19,320 And when you have those experiences right side by side 473 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:21,720 against each other, it's a bit of a mind fuck. 474 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:24,760 You know. And it's a bit of a kind of like 475 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:28,920 you're in two different worlds and you kind of want to say to 476 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:33,280 the people when you're inside, how would you see me outside if 477 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:36,200 I wasn't on the stage? If you just saw me, if I knocked 478 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:37,960 on your door because I was doing the plumbing or something, what 479 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:40,120 would you think? And then vice versa, if I'm on 480 00:25:40,120 --> 00:25:42,080 the train, you don't want to sit next to me and all the other 481 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:44,160 seats are packed. Everyone's standing up because 482 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:46,920 they're hot and tired, but for some reason, I want to sit here. 483 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:49,840 If I told you about the work I've done, you might look at me 484 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,360 differently. So it's that real kind of. 485 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,960 I think if you're in the minority in the world, in a 486 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:59,960 different space, the way you have to navigate the world is a 487 00:25:59,960 --> 00:26:03,400 lot different. And that takes up a lot of brain 488 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:06,760 space and it's tiring. Yeah. 489 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:08,400 Yeah. Yeah, wow. 490 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:11,720 That's yeah. I mean, I can imagine that there 491 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:17,040 was a real punch in the face. If you have those two events 492 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:22,560 butting up against each other. It's a real stark Wow, eye 493 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:27,360 opener. I the only time more recently 494 00:26:27,360 --> 00:26:35,160 where I have experienced quite obvious misogyny was actually I 495 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:38,040 went to give evidence in Parliament in the House of Lords 496 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:42,640 and one of the Lords that was interviewing me, I'm not going 497 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:45,880 to say his name. Very wealthy man, Tory Lord, 498 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:47,600 you're. Not going to call him out early. 499 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:49,880 I. Do not actually remember his 500 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,280 name but I could give you some information that would mean 501 00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:56,440 you'd figure out who he was. But he was so obnoxious when I 502 00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,240 was giving evidence and he kept questioning and questioning me. 503 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:01,200 But obviously I had an answer for everything. 504 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:05,000 And then during the evidence session he said, do you know 505 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,120 what, I'm going to invite you to my office and we can have a 506 00:27:07,120 --> 00:27:10,600 conversation about this. So when the evidence session had 507 00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:15,040 finished I went to go to the toilet and when I came out he 508 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:17,520 was there and I said. Waiting outside the toilet. 509 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:19,920 No, no, he wasn't perfectly waiting for me. 510 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:22,840 He had also gone to the toilet. No, that would be weird. 511 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:26,840 Yeah, that would be weird. And then I said to him, but you 512 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:28,920 said in that session that you were going to invite me to your 513 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:31,360 office to have a conversation about flexible working. 514 00:27:31,360 --> 00:27:35,240 Were you being serious? And he stopped, looked me up and 515 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,000 down, you know, properly up and down. 516 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,880 And then when you came to my office, I would eat you for 517 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:44,160 breakfast. Seriously. 518 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:47,720 And I, I was really caught off guard because I've hadn't 519 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:51,360 experienced that sort of sexism for quite a long time at this 520 00:27:51,360 --> 00:27:53,720 point. Obviously experienced it 521 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:57,240 previously, but it's been a few years and we're in the House of 522 00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,080 Lords. You know, it's not what you 523 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:02,720 expect. And and then he laughed as if he 524 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:04,080 was joking. He wasn't joking. 525 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:07,800 He was trying to intimidate me. But there are still clearly 526 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:14,320 wealthy, powerful people who use intimidation as a tactic to get 527 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:16,840 what they want. And he wouldn't have spoken to 528 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,160 me like that if I was a man. It was very obvious to me. 529 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,920 Yeah, and it's important we have these conversations, you know, 530 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:28,080 like it is super important. I'm sure everyone listening. 531 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:30,200 I think we have quite progressive listeners, you know, 532 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:34,800 and hopefully people who can reflect on whether they have 533 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:38,080 been the perpetrator in these circumstances. 534 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:41,080 I think it's a really good thing to admit that to themselves. 535 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:44,080 No one's perfect. It's Father's Day on Sunday, 536 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:46,480 what are you doing? Yeah, I don't know. 537 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:50,400 I hope I'm getting half a day to myself. 538 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:53,840 I. Said to you, Jeremy, I'm trying 539 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:58,440 to spend more alone time. We're in the South by Southwest. 540 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:00,000 They're the same guy. We can't remember his name. 541 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,640 We'll get his name. And he had a chart that showed 542 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:05,480 the demographic of people who are spending the most time 543 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:07,520 alone. Unfortunately, it's young men 544 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:10,200 under the age of 25, I think it is, who are spending the most 545 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,200 time alone, more time alone than pensioners. 546 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,840 And I was saying I need to be spending more time alone. 547 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:18,800 My aspiration is to spend more time alone. 548 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:21,880 I want to be more alone. And what I find is really 549 00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:25,560 interesting is that on Mother's Day, everyone gives the mum time 550 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,200 off, right? Go go to the spa for half a day 551 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:30,560 or something, you know, go and relax. 552 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,520 Go have some have have some new time obviously, because mums do 553 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:37,120 the majority of childcare. So on Father's Day the dad's 554 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:38,800 going to be at the park at 9:00 AM with their kids. 555 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,120 Because I guess the reality is that, you know, mothers do do 556 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:45,640 the majority of childcare. Many dads do not spend much time 557 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:48,320 with their children at all. What would I like? 558 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,320 I would like my dream Father's Day would be breakfast in bed. 559 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:57,400 Like some sausages, scrambled egg, cuppa tea, Yorkshire tea 560 00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:01,160 with oat milk overly. Maybe watching Netflix for an 561 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:03,480 hour. That would be lovely. 562 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:05,720 And then I'd go to the gym. I'd go to the gym. 563 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:07,960 We're very lucky enough to go to a gym that has a nice spa, so 564 00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:09,640 we'll go to the spa as well on my own. 565 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:11,960 By the way, this is all by myself, even if the breakfast is 566 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:13,400 in bed is by myself. Yeah. 567 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:18,080 And then I'll come home. I'll swan home about 2:00. 568 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:20,760 Maybe I'll have a nap for an hour or so. 569 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,520 Everyone loves a nap. This sounds amazing. 570 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,640 Carry on. I'll have a mid afternoon nap 571 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:30,000 and then from about 3:00 PM we'll do the family thing and 572 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,880 we'll go for a meal. The kids will give me their 573 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,320 their handmade Father's Day cards. 574 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:37,800 They'll give me the socks. I love a good sock by the way, 575 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:42,240 Save the socks. I am a sock connoisseur like in 576 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:46,200 in the winter, I love a good thick sock because my feet get 577 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:48,520 very cold. And what I have found, though I 578 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:51,160 don't know if you've found this Jolie, sometimes I forget my 579 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:54,040 sock game if I'm, if I'm doing a panel or doing a talk, I think 580 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:57,120 about my whole outfit and my socks will let me down. 581 00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:01,560 So I need to update my kind of going out funky sock collection. 582 00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:04,240 Like that is when you know someone's made an effort, 583 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,600 they've got good socks on. I think this is a man thing. 584 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,480 I don't think women think about socks like that. 585 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:12,840 'Cause my mom, my mom looks like here. 586 00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:14,640 No, it's just. This is just, yeah. 587 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:16,960 What are you talking about? I'm not really with you. 588 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:19,760 I have black socks or I have those socks that you can wear 589 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:22,440 with trainers where you have the comfort of a sock but not the 590 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:25,800 embarrassment of wearing 1, you know, where they sort of hide 591 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:28,280 themselves under the trainer. That's. 592 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:30,640 Ankle socks. As far as it goes for me with 593 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:34,520 socks, I did notice that in terms of presents for Father's 594 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,680 Day, when it when you go into a shop and it's Mother's Day, it's 595 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,440 pink everywhere, isn't it? And hearts and teddies and 596 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:43,960 chocolates and flowers. And for Father's Day presents is 597 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:50,120 socks, aftershave or like discounted stuff like that seems 598 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:52,840 to be your options. And the and the Father's Day 599 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:57,880 cards all have the themes are either DIY, aren't they? 600 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:02,880 So they're like hammers, spanners, sheds or their beer or 601 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:08,440 they're football cars or they're really heavy on puns. 602 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:11,400 Like there's there's a lot of puns going on in Father's Day 603 00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:15,000 cards or they're like laziness as if all dads want to do is 604 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:17,520 nap, which actually you have just said is what you want to 605 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:17,880 do. I would. 606 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:19,160 Love to do that for part of it they're. 607 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:21,120 Very accurate. Yeah, but I think it's a 608 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:23,720 reflection on just like the gender stereotypes, like it's 609 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:26,120 all a bit of a laugh. Dads are there for a little bit 610 00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:28,520 of fun, which don't get me wrong, I like a laugh and I like 611 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,400 the fun too. But you definitely feel maybe 612 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:33,400 with the Mother's Day, it's a bit more emotional, it's a bit 613 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:37,680 more about the love and the connection and it's more flowery 614 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:40,160 and more soft. And I think maybe it's a 615 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:45,720 reflection on how comfortable do we feel expressing that to our 616 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:49,600 fathers, You know, telling our dads we love them, showing the 617 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:52,160 soft side, appreciating what they do for us on a day-to-day 618 00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:54,600 basis. I've got to say, my eldest is 619 00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:58,240 incredible with her words and so I'm expecting something pretty, 620 00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:01,800 pretty soft and I'm expecting to cry on Father's Day because I'm 621 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,680 pretty sure she's going to write something amazing. 622 00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,200 And also, if she was a boy, would she feel more comfortable 623 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,280 to do that? I probably don't know. 624 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,840 I mean. Do you probably my my boys will 625 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:15,520 write in the Father's Day card to Dad. 626 00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:19,680 Thanks. Love me like so far as that'll 627 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:21,000 go. Yeah. 628 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,760 Thanks. But what do dads really want for 629 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:27,920 Father's Day? I think we want, obviously we 630 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,240 want better paternity leave. Of course we do. 631 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:33,920 Of course we want workplace cultures that support us 632 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:35,920 parenting loudly. We want that. 633 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:40,560 We want really inclusive health services that support dads 634 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,080 through the whole maternity process. 635 00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:47,600 We want this dads to be seen as equal parents and for society to 636 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:53,480 value fathers not just for their ability to provide and protect, 637 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:58,760 but also their ability to love and comfort and offer their 638 00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:03,720 children emotional stability. And be a be a friend and be 639 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:07,880 someone in the house, in the home or outside the home that 640 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:11,080 their children can love and learn from and find comfort in 641 00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:14,600 and be taught by and be soft with. 642 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:16,560 And I think we're getting there very, very slowly. 643 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:20,679 But I think since I've started doing this work maybe nine years 644 00:34:20,679 --> 00:34:23,880 ago now, there is so much more conversations about what it 645 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:28,159 means to be a dad, about inclusive fatherhood, services, 646 00:34:28,159 --> 00:34:32,400 policies, so many more dads and like showing up now in public, 647 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:35,199 celebrating their fatherhood, talking about the challenges, 648 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:37,679 showing the softer side of themselves. 649 00:34:37,679 --> 00:34:41,480 And Father's Day is a nice, it's a nice point to reflect on that, 650 00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:43,320 you know, and to celebrate all the dads. 651 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:45,639 So if you are a dad listening, well done. 652 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:51,360 Hope you had a fantastic day. I hope you were spoiled. 653 00:34:51,639 --> 00:34:54,840 I hope you got breakfast in bed. I hope you got a massage. 654 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:56,760 I hope you got a lovely pair of socks. 655 00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:59,000 I love you. I hope you got some new boxers. 656 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:00,680 You can't go home with some boxer shorts. 657 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:04,960 I think that's a beautiful moment to end on. 658 00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:09,160 So thank you everyone for joining us and who we got on 659 00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:13,000 next week. Think we have Jessica Lahey or 660 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:16,080 Jessica Lahey? Yeah, Jessica Leahy, who is 661 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:18,200 going to be talking to us about addiction, isn't she? 662 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:21,280 Yeah, and we've had some emails about this, actually about 663 00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:22,480 addiction. We see your emails. 664 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:25,960 We've had loads of requests to do more about male anger, more 665 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:29,480 about sex and porn, obviously the online world, but addiction 666 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:31,480 as well. So we, we hear you, we've got 667 00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:34,200 the stuff, we've got some great guests come in and we're going 668 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:36,280 to make sure we're going to touch on all of the things that 669 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:38,920 are important to you as well. So I want to give a massive 670 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:43,040 shout out to Marnie Marzi. I met Marnie this week at an 671 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:46,920 event and Marnie listens to the podcast in the car with her 672 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,440 children, with her two sons. She has a nine year old and 11 673 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:53,000 year old. And she said to me that it 674 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:55,920 sparks conversation in the household and is a part of their 675 00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:58,760 day-to-day routine. And I thought that is fantastic. 676 00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:01,680 And it asked about the swearing, and she said she tells the kids 677 00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:04,560 they can listen, they can hear, but they can't repeat it. 678 00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,040 OK, kids, so don't, please don't repeat the swearing. 679 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:10,160 But thank you so much, Marnie. Like, it means a lot that you 680 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:11,720 listen. You listen with your family. 681 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:14,600 That means a lot to us. It's so touching that you use it 682 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:16,400 to spark conversations. Thank you so much. 683 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,800 Thank you for writing to us. Thank you for joining us. 684 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:23,600 And we will be joined by Jessica Leahy next week. 685 00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:25,040 See you then. See ya.