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Welcome back to episode 2 of the
To Be a Boy podcast, and I think

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we need to start with a thank 
you, Jodie. 

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I mean, what a response. 
It's been incredible. 

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We're being, we're so grateful. 
Thank you, everybody that's 

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tuned in and listened. 
I think it's even astounded us, 

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hasn't it, for how many 
listeners we've had. 

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I mean, I thought people would 
like it, hence why we're doing 

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it, but actually people really 
love it. 

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So thank you. 
It has given us so much 

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confidence and motivation to to 
bring you more amazing episodes.

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And Apple said we have the 
number one or had the number one

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podcast for parenting in the UK 
last week which? 

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Mind blowing. 
So thank you everybody for the 

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love and support. 
Really, really appreciate you. 

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I guess the timing of it is, you
know, couldn't really be better 

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in many ways because as we've 
seen in the news this week, 

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things are getting pretty hairy 
out there, aren't they? 

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So you've got Trump wanting to 
get into bed, for want of a 

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better word, with Andrew Tate, 
which they know about you, but 

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makes me feel physically sick in
every way. 

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Actually, the fact that I 
phrased it as getting into bed 

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with Andrew Tate probably didn't
help the feeling of wanting to 

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vomit. 
You've got the rollback of 

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diversity and inclusion 
policies. 

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Goldman Sachs and Deloitte have 
both said they're going to 

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sunset the diversity and 
inclusion policies. 

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What else? 
What else? 

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What else has gone on this week 
that's been horrendous? 

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Why did the post this week on 
LinkedIn? 

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Because I've been reflecting 
quite a lot about the fact that 

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I'm leaving pregnant. 
That's great. 

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And it's been 10 years and I was
thinking about what my 

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inspiration was for starting it.
Now, obviously I got pushed out 

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of my job when I was pregnant, 
which, you know, it was a pretty

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big trigger. 
But I also know that a big 

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inspiration for me was Naina 
Cherry when I was nine years 

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old. 
I loved top of the pups, loved 

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Naina Cherry, probably my first 
love I would say. 

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And she came bounding out onto 
the stage in a high top trainers

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and a big medallion necklace. 
I think she was seven months 

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pregnant at the time singing 
Buffalo stands, which is still 

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one of my favorite pop songs 
ever. 

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Can do the rap if you give me a 
few drinks, big tune. 

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And I remember sitting looking 
at her and back in those back in

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those days, Elliot. 
In those days. 

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You just didn't see pregnant 
women on the TV. 

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And even if you saw them out in 
the wild, they were wearing like

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a tent. 
That's, you know, there was no, 

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you didn't really show your 
pregnancy bump. 

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It wasn't something that you 
were particularly proud of. 

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You sort of hid away. 
And I was absolutely agog that 

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this incredibly beautiful, 
achingly cool woman was bouncing

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around on stage seven months 
pregnant. 

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And it obviously really 
resonated with me that she was 

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like, I can fulfill my dreams 
and I can have a baby. 

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I can do all of this. 
And you aren't going to tell me 

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otherwise. 
And I was listening back then to

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Nina Cherry after, you know, 
reflecting on this and listening

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to Manchild, that you will maybe
remember that. 

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I know that song. 
And I have had a number of 

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boyfriends. 
What kind of podcast is this, 

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Jodie? 
This is in the kids and family 

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section. 
Just one or two, you know, not, 

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not that mess, but I have had, 
you know, more than one 

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boyfriend who I would say has 
Peter Pan syndrome. 

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They just never wanted to grow 
up. 

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And it seems to be a particular 
thing amongst some men. 

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And I don't know women like 
that. 

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I only know men like that. 
So I wanted to ask you what you 

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thought about me. 
Well. 

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First of all, Peter Panther, can
we get Nina Cherry on the 

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podcast please? 
Oh hell yeah. 

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Nina Cherry, if you're 
listening, hit us up OK to be a 

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boy team@gmo.com. 
We'll be from the podcast. 

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I don't think I'll be able to 
speak. 

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I'd just do the Buffalo stands 
for that matter, and then die 

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inside because. 
But no, seriously, serious 

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question. 
Big question. 

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Yeah, I've seen this too. 
And I think there's a couple of 

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reasons. 
The first one I think is quite 

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easy to talk about, and the 
second one isn't easy to talk 

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about. 
So let's start with the first. 

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I think for a lot of men, as 
we're going to explore through 

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this podcast, don't necessarily 
know how to. 

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I was doing a webinar a couple 
of years ago now and I was 

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asking people around men's 
mental health, why don't men 

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speak about their mental health 
as much as they could and and 

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should. 
And one man said, I've never 

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done, I've never done it before.
I wouldn't know where to start. 

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And he explained that he's never
ever had a conversation about 

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his well-being with anyone 
really. 

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He wouldn't know how to begin 
that conversation. 

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And he was a big man, right? 
So I think there is this, this 

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idea that we haven't necessarily
practiced how to do it. 

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We haven't been in spaces and 
friendship groups that have 

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encouraged us to do so. 
And it's, you know, underpinning

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that is all the kind of ideas 
about gender norms, right? 

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That men don't show their 
emotions, boys don't show their 

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emotions. 
And sometimes we say to boys 

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don't cry. 
And then we get surprised when 

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they're 3040 year olds and don't
know how to express themselves. 

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So I think that's probably a big
part of the reason. 

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Is that what you think as well? 
I definitely think there is an 

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issue with men talking about 
their feelings, and the men that

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I am thinking about would not be
very good at expressing their 

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emotions and how they felt. 
So I actually asked Snenny, my 

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wife, yesterday. 
I said, do you think I'm open 

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about my emotions? 
She said yeah. 

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I think so, but it's taken me a 
while. 

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To be honest. 
I think when we first met, I 

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wasn't as open. 
I wouldn't admit so many 

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vulnerabilities. 
Now I think I'm more comfortable

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and secure in who I am. 
And I have noticed for a lot of 

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men, when they feel that they're
accomplished, it's then OK to be

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vulnerable. 
There's kind of a shield around 

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you. 
I can talk about my mental 

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health challenges because I feel
like I'm successful. 

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So within my vulnerability, 
there's a shield there, whereas 

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I don't know if I would be so 
open about some of my challenges

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if I didn't feel secure in where
I was in my life right now. 

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And so you do feel like 
sometimes men will talk up after

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the fact, you know, when they've
been through something and 

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they've come out the other end 
and it's all good. 

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But talking about it as you're 
going through it and really 

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showing that vulnerability, I 
think that's quite difficult. 

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The second reason, I think some 
men don't talk and this is 

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uncomfortable and this is a 
challenging conversation. 

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I do hear some men say that they
have tried to be vulnerable with

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their partner and that hasn't 
been received very well. 

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And this is tricky because I 
think when we think about some 

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men who have potentially been 
stoic in their relationship, 

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they've been the rock. 
They've never shown any 

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vulnerability ever. 
And maybe their partners 

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appreciated that trait in them 
for that person to turn around 

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and say they're upset or say 
they're struggling or say 

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they're finding something 
difficult and they can't lead in

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this moment or they don't know 
what to do. 

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That can be uncomfortable for 
the man, but can also be 

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uncomfortable for the woman as 
well. 

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And I think when we look at 
patriarchy and the gender norms 

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where all the products of that 
and where it's uncomfortable for

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some men to speak up, I think 
it's also uncomfortable for some

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women to hear their partner in 
that vulnerable state as well. 

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I. 
Think some women also perpetuate

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the patriarchy as much as men do
in many ways and that we've, we 

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try and fulfill those 
stereotypes. 

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Many of us as much as you know, 
men do. 

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So we we feel able to be 
vulnerable and when a man is 

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vulnerable, it messes with those
stereotypes. 

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And so we we find it 
challenging. 

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I can imagine that that is the 
case, that in relationships 

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there will be situations by men 
show vulnerability and women are

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like, oh, what is this? 
I didn't want that from you. 

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And that will create new 
barriers for men. 

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It does southbound kind of 
workshops where we ask everyone 

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how they can be allies to men. 
And often I ask the question and

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a lot of it that comes back is 
create open spaces for 

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conversation, like facilitate 
those conversations, learn how 

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to be really good listeners, 
understand our own emotional 

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response when someone cries in 
front of us. 

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And that can be deep work and 
really difficult because we've 

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got to unpack like how we feel 
about how that person should 

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show up and when they don't 
necessarily show up in a way 

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that we're used to, not a wrong 
way, but a way that we come 

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haven't come accustomed to. 
That can be quite challenging. 

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And sometimes, you know, we can 
get a bit hot and blood pressure

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goes up. 
We don't know how to respond. 

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And then that person can feel 
that and then they think, 

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actually, I'm not going to do 
that again because that wasn't 

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received well. 
And so the kind of cycle 

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continues. 
So I think it's a conversation 

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to be had. 
And you know, I hope that's 

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received with love from 
everybody because it is it's 

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sensitive. 
And I'm definitely not saying 

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that women are to blame for men 
not opening up. 

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I think it is 100% the 
responsibility of men to like 

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lead and own their emotions and 
do the work. 

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But I think at the same time we 
can also understand the system 

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and the environment that we're 
living in and understand it's 

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not about blame, it's the 
reality that not everyone is 

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comfortable with men showing 
vulnerability. 

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Philippe, so listen, we we've 
got we've got a cracking episode

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coming up, haven't we? 
And we're going to start, it's 

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Ruth Whitman who wrote the book 
Boy, Mom. 

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We are going to start at Ruth 
Whitman Fan Club because my God,

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this woman is brilliant that are
you going to love this episode? 

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And we'd also really like to 
thank our sponsors, Bubble and 

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Movember, who are giving us 
support and we couldn't do this 

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podcast without them. 
So thank you, Bubble and 

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November. 
You are a massive roof fan. 

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I mean is that a roof poster you
have on your wardrobe? 

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Behind you I can see. 
I've got a head tattoo, a face 

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tattooed on my chest. 
I've just, I've just gone the 

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whole way, Elliot, because I 
love that woman. 

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I have. 
I haven't had a full woman crush

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for a long time. 
But Ruth, you, you've got me. 

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She was great and I think it's a
great 1st guest to have actually

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because of all what, what she 
says really sets the tone for 

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the whole podcast. 
So it's it's an amazing 1st 

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guest and thank you, Ruth. 
There's so many Nuggets, so many

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gems, so much wisdom that she 
brought to the conversation. 

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So enjoy everybody. 
Great. 

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Today we are joined by Ruth 
Whitman who is the author of Boy

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Mum, Raising Boys in the Age of 
Toxic Masculinity. 

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She is British and lives in the 
United States with her husband 

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and three sons. 
Boy Mum is an exploration of the

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specific challenges experienced 
by boys and how feminist mums 

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might navigate their conflicting
and complex feelings. 

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I certainly nodded along to 
every single word in this book 

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whilst being astounded by some 
of the data and stories that 

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Ruth shares. 
Ruth starts the book by talking 

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about the pitiful looks and 
comments she would get when she 

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said she was having a third son,
and how since Me Too and Donald 

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Trump and Harvey Weinstein, it 
has felt like everywhere she 

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turned there was another example
of a bad man. 

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From in cells to masculinity 
influencers to men's rights 

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activists to Greg Wallace, the 
list goes on. 

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She understood, of course, why 
there was so much anger directed

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at men, but as a mother of three
sweet boys, it was impossible to

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see men as the enemy. 
She sets out to ask a question. 

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Is there a way to offer real 
empathy to boys, to give them a 

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more expansive story about their
own possibilities without 

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betraying any feminist 
principles? 

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Ruth, welcome to To Be a Boy. 
It's such a pleasure to have you

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here. 
It's so great to be talking to 

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you. 
Thank you. 

227
00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:56,000
I, I mean, firstly, I've got it 
here and I have, I mean it is 

228
00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:58,400
dog eared. 
I have highlighted, I have 

229
00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:03,160
folded things over. 
I absolutely loved this book so 

230
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much. 
And honestly, I, I, I've thought

231
00:13:06,560 --> 00:13:10,000
about, I've wanted this book for
a really long time and I've 

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00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:12,040
thought about that. 
I'm sure you feel the same, 

233
00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:15,600
which is why you wrote it. 
And I did think to myself, maybe

234
00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:18,280
one day, you know, I'll do bit 
research and I'll write a book 

235
00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:20,480
about that. 
But thank God you did because 

236
00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:25,520
it's so much better than 
anything I could have written. 

237
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It's honestly, I mean, it's 
funny, it's hacked full of facts

238
00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:34,640
and data. 
You look at the all the 

239
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different angles from every 
different angle that you could 

240
00:13:37,560 --> 00:13:41,040
possibly look at it. 
And I just, I mean, I found it 

241
00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:44,360
completely captivating. 
So thank you for writing it. 

242
00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:45,880
Well, that's really lovely to 
hear. 

243
00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:49,320
Thank you so much. 
So we want to get right into it 

244
00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:53,080
because as I said to you 
earlier, we could do 24 podcasts

245
00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:56,800
based just on this work. 
And so we want to maximize our 

246
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time. 
While we've got you do in the 

247
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book, you say some stuff about 
boys, which I found tremendously

248
00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:08,200
validating. 
And one of those being that baby

249
00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:12,840
boys actually may need more 
nurture than baby girls and that

250
00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:17,640
their their brains are behind 
baby girls when they're born and

251
00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:21,880
they develop it in a different 
order to baby girls. 

252
00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:25,840
Parts of their brain that are 
responsible for emotional and 

253
00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:30,240
self regulation and impulse 
control develop up to two years 

254
00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:33,560
later in boys compared to girls,
which I found absolutely 

255
00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:36,680
fascinating. 
So can you tell us a bit more 

256
00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:39,160
about that research you 
uncovered in relation to 

257
00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:42,560
hormones as well and the impact 
they have on boys? 

258
00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:45,320
Yeah. 
So all this nature nurture stuff

259
00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:48,440
is really interesting. 
And it's also, it's kind of 

260
00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:53,120
quite fraught because, you know,
sometimes when you sort of talk 

261
00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:56,920
about how much is innate and how
much is socialized, it can feel 

262
00:14:56,920 --> 00:14:59,280
like you're making some kind of 
political statement. 

263
00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:03,000
And so I went into that research
with a lot of trepidation. 

264
00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:04,880
And, you know, there's this 
whole story about, you know, 

265
00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:07,800
boys will be boys. 
And it's like the idea, you 

266
00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:10,640
know, when you hear that, you 
kind of imagine that boys are 

267
00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:15,000
like sort of innately aggressive
or destructive or really sturdy 

268
00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:17,240
and tough and, you know, not 
very vulnerable. 

269
00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:20,840
But what I found when I looked 
at the research was actually 

270
00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:25,240
almost the complete opposite, 
that a baby boy is actually more

271
00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:28,800
emotionally sensitive and 
fragile and vulnerable than a 

272
00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:32,000
baby girl at birth. 
And the reason for that is that 

273
00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:35,200
the right hemisphere of the 
brain, which is the part, you 

274
00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:37,560
know, it's very easy to 
oversimplify, but broadly 

275
00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:41,280
speaking, the right part of the 
brain is the part that deals 

276
00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:44,040
with emotions, emotional self 
regulation. 

277
00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:47,800
So like calming down if you're 
upset and forming attachments 

278
00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:49,800
and relationships. 
So it's like your emotional 

279
00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:53,680
center in a baby boy that's 
about a month to six weeks 

280
00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:56,400
behind a baby girl in 
development at birth. 

281
00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:59,480
And if you know newborns, you 
know that a month to six weeks 

282
00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:02,520
is really quite a lot like if 
you think about premature babies

283
00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:05,440
or whatever. 
And so when a boy is born, he's 

284
00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:10,120
like a little bit more, you 
know, the boys tend to cry more 

285
00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:11,640
often. 
They find it harder to calm 

286
00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:14,720
down. 
They're more kind of upset by 

287
00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:17,680
traumatic or, you know, or 
difficult events. 

288
00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:21,080
So if they're separated from 
their caregiver or, you know, if

289
00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:23,280
something goes wrong, you can 
see that a baby boy takes 

290
00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:25,640
slightly longer to calm down. 
Obviously we're talking about 

291
00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:29,920
averages here, you know, group 
averages, Every individual is 

292
00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:33,960
different but and a baby girl is
slightly, generally slightly 

293
00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:35,960
more independent, slightly more 
resilient. 

294
00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:42,040
So you can see that in the data 
that pretty much every bad thing

295
00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:44,880
that can happen to a baby. 
So whether that's like abuse or 

296
00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:50,400
neglect or poverty or post nasal
depression from the mum, all of 

297
00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:53,200
these things have a bigger 
impact on boys than they do on 

298
00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:54,600
girls. 
And you can see data on that 

299
00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:57,120
that carries all the way through
life. 

300
00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:00,800
You know that boys are more 
vulnerable to disruption and 

301
00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:03,000
that kind of brain 
vulnerability, you know, it's 

302
00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:06,160
brain immaturity and brain 
vulnerability carries on 

303
00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:10,160
throughout childhood. 
So boys brains just develop more

304
00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:12,480
slowly. 
And I think we tend to, you 

305
00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:16,680
know, our stories about gender 
make us sort of see boys as much

306
00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:20,079
tougher and steadier and that 
they may be not as emotionally 

307
00:17:20,079 --> 00:17:22,160
complex as girls and that kind 
of thing. 

308
00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:26,440
But actually, if anything, 
they're more, they're more in 

309
00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:29,120
need of that extra support, that
extra nurture. 

310
00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:32,440
And because of our ideas about 
gender, we actually end up 

311
00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:35,040
treating baby boys a little 
differently than baby girls. 

312
00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:36,840
You know, we think they're 
tougher, we think they're 

313
00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:38,280
sturdier. 
We throw them around more. 

314
00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:41,160
We don't give them quite such 
nurturing care as we give baby 

315
00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:43,120
girls. 
So they need a little more and 

316
00:17:43,120 --> 00:17:46,200
they get a little less. 
And that ends up adding up to 

317
00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:47,880
quite a big difference over 
time. 

318
00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:52,280
I just wanted to clarify on one 
of the points that you said, 

319
00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:56,200
because I can imagine some boys 
or men that might be listening 

320
00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:59,880
will be thinking, hold on, our 
brains are not behind girls. 

321
00:18:00,120 --> 00:18:02,040
But it's not about intelligence,
is it? 

322
00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:03,640
Right. 
It's about order. 

323
00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:05,920
Yeah, yes. 
It's not about intelligence at 

324
00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:08,000
all. 
So like cognitive skills. 

325
00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:10,360
And this is I think why this 
issue becomes really 

326
00:18:10,360 --> 00:18:13,400
controversial because people get
hung up on these like who can 

327
00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:16,680
read maps and who can do maths 
and who can do, you know, 

328
00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:19,880
reading and everything. 
Actually cognitively in terms of

329
00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:22,320
like intelligence, boys and 
girls bones are really similar. 

330
00:18:22,360 --> 00:18:26,800
They have very similar I QS, but
it's the emotional development. 

331
00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:29,600
There's sort of emotional and 
attachment development. 

332
00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:32,880
That's the bit that is a little 
bit behind and the parts that 

333
00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:37,640
deal with that self regulation. 
So calming down impulse control,

334
00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:39,960
that sort of thing. 
It's those things which are 

335
00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:42,800
different. 
And I know that you said the 

336
00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:49,000
baby boys are they're bathed in 
testosterone when they're in the

337
00:18:49,120 --> 00:18:52,400
womb as well. 
How do hormones play a role as 

338
00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:54,640
well in their behavior? 
Yeah. 

339
00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:57,640
So it's interesting this because
again, this is quite 

340
00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:00,760
controversial because when 
they're kids, boys and girls, 

341
00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:04,000
like pre puberty boys and girls 
actually have similar levels of 

342
00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:05,560
testosterone when you measure 
them. 

343
00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:10,520
But when baby boys are in utero 
in the womb, they get this kind 

344
00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:15,640
of testosterone influx and that 
has been connected to more like 

345
00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:18,600
what they call rough and tumble 
kind of play later in life. 

346
00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:21,040
And you can see it in other 
species as well. 

347
00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:27,840
So in rats and in primates and 
everything that male infants to 

348
00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:30,640
male children tend to play in a 
more physical in a more 

349
00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:33,800
rambunctious way than female 
infants. 

350
00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:36,880
And again, group level 
differences there will, you 

351
00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:40,040
know, everyone's going to know a
really, really active girl and a

352
00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:42,400
really, really quiet and sedate 
boy. 

353
00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:46,200
So there are there is a lot of 
variation, but at a group level,

354
00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:49,240
boys tend to play in a more 
physical and more rambunctious 

355
00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:53,120
way. 
All my two boys do is punch each

356
00:19:53,120 --> 00:19:55,160
other in the face and play with 
their own penises. 

357
00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:58,440
That has been my life for the 
last 11 years and I know reading

358
00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:02,640
your book you said you seem we 
you were living my life and with

359
00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:06,000
every page I was like, yes. 
Well, you know, because I grew 

360
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:08,960
up with that version of feminism
that's like, you know, boys and 

361
00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:11,640
girls are only different because
we socialize them differently. 

362
00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:14,200
And, you know, it was almost 
like a point of principle that 

363
00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:17,160
it's all about socialization. 
So I went into parenting. 

364
00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:20,240
I was so like, full of, you 
know, kind of full of myself, 

365
00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:22,720
honestly. 
Like my boys are going to be 

366
00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:24,360
different. 
They're not going to be badly 

367
00:20:24,360 --> 00:20:26,160
behaved. 
You know, I'm not going to let 

368
00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:29,080
them get away with all this, 
like behavior and all of this. 

369
00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:31,800
And then of course, I was like 
blindsided. 

370
00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:35,680
My boys were the most like rough
and tumble, the most wrestling, 

371
00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:40,400
the most penis grabbing, the 
most like all of the things they

372
00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:42,080
like the nerf guns the most, you
know. 

373
00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:45,560
And it felt like reading this 
research actually felt quite 

374
00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:49,520
validating for me as a mum 
because we have this idea that 

375
00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:53,400
we have so much control over how
our children turn out and that 

376
00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:56,640
every decision we make is going 
to have this huge impact down 

377
00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:59,520
the line and all the rest of it.
And I think there was something 

378
00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:02,240
about knowing that, you know, 
when I saw my neighbors, little 

379
00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:05,080
girls who were like colouring in
nicely and, you know, and 

380
00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:07,440
sitting at a restaurant and 
being all sweet and playing 

381
00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:10,080
nicely with adults, you know, 
there was, it was a little bit 

382
00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:12,240
validating to say, look, it's 
not all you. 

383
00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:15,640
It's you can't, you know, there 
are things you can do. 

384
00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:18,560
And there's a lot of that 
parenting matters in a big way. 

385
00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:22,280
But it's not like, oh, you, you 
don't have so much control. 

386
00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:25,760
I found with my daughter so my 
eldest is 9 and interesting. 

387
00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:29,280
When she's playing with my wife,
she's happy to sit down and 

388
00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:32,000
color and read. 
When it's Daddy, she wants to 

389
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:35,920
like, beat me up and come in my 
head and it's nice. 

390
00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:38,400
But sometimes I want to chill 
and read a book as well. 

391
00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:41,600
What do you think about that? 
Yeah, I just want to relax. 

392
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:44,240
Sometimes I can't. 
So what do you is it? 

393
00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:46,160
Is it because have I modelled 
that to her? 

394
00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:49,920
Maybe I've been more physical 
and I probably was when she was 

395
00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:51,640
younger, so she's picked that up
from me. 

396
00:21:52,360 --> 00:21:56,160
Yeah, I think kids in general, 
like, live to their parents for 

397
00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:58,720
different things. 
And yeah, there's all this 

398
00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:01,960
research that shows that dads 
behave really differently than 

399
00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:04,440
mums. 
Like the way that dads interact 

400
00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:06,880
with kids is really different 
and they are more physical with 

401
00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:08,800
them. 
Dads tend to rough hairs and 

402
00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:10,520
like, play in that more physical
way. 

403
00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:12,800
And so she probably is taking 
cues at some level. 

404
00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:15,520
She's like, oh, daddy's the one 
who's going to be the, like, fun

405
00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,000
and bucks as well. 
And I know as a mum, I see it 

406
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,320
the other way around, which is 
like, that's always the fun one.

407
00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,000
You know, it's like he gets 
labeled the fun one. 

408
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:26,800
And I'm always like the boring 
chores, you know, nurture one. 

409
00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:29,400
But you know, so it kind of cuts
both ways. 

410
00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:31,560
But I like hearing it from a 
daddy's point of view that 

411
00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:33,800
you're just like, let me just be
the one. 

412
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:36,880
I want to be the boring parent 
sometimes, but on a Sunday when 

413
00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:39,360
I'm knackered. 
Yeah, I see them. 

414
00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:41,840
I see them having a great time 
sitting down on a sofa and then 

415
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,680
when we take we take turns. 
So it's my turn now and I don't 

416
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,280
get to sit down on the sofa. 
So I wanna be more boring. 

417
00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:49,200
I'm gonna welcome being more of 
a boring parent. 

418
00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:51,520
I think that's that's my future.
That's my love. 

419
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:53,440
That be more boring. 
I love that be more boring. 

420
00:22:55,120 --> 00:22:57,800
My kids have been loving 
watching Flash recently, the 

421
00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:03,160
series, and I get really excited
when I see the women in Flash go

422
00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:06,240
in for a fight and they'll like 
take on the bad day and they'll 

423
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:09,600
be really bad ass and you know, 
kick them to the ground. 

424
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,840
And then totally, I'm like, you 
can do it. 

425
00:23:13,360 --> 00:23:16,880
But what I found, what I really 
took away from your book, which 

426
00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:21,600
I found really interesting, was 
that the overall message, one of

427
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:23,880
the overall messages, because 
there is a number, was that 

428
00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:27,640
where mate, we're asking girls 
to be more like boys in the 

429
00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:32,280
strive for gender equality, but 
we're not asking boys to be more

430
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:34,080
like girls. 
We're asking boys to be boys and

431
00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:38,040
girls to be more like boys. 
Could you talk a bit about that?

432
00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:40,400
Yeah. 
I mean, like if you go into the 

433
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,480
bookshop, you know, every book 
that has the word girl in the 

434
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:47,480
title will somehow have the word
like mighty or superhero or like

435
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,920
Supreme Court Justice here in 
America or scientist or whatever

436
00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:53,480
it is. 
But you don't see so much of A 

437
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,440
push to get boys to embrace more
feminine coded things. 

438
00:23:56,440 --> 00:24:01,000
So like, you know, nurturing or 
nursing or caregiving or 

439
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:04,480
relationships or whatever. 
And you know, especially when it

440
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:06,920
comes to friendships, there's 
all these stories for girls 

441
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:10,720
about friendships and 
relationships. 

442
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:13,920
And you really don't see any 
push to have more stories like 

443
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:17,880
that for boys or barely. 
And the reason is I think it 

444
00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:20,040
comes down to, you know, it's 
sexism. 

445
00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:22,400
It's like we value masculine 
things higher. 

446
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:26,240
We value things associated with 
boys and men more highly than we

447
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:29,080
do value things associated with 
girls and women. 

448
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:33,880
So if a girl is going to act 
more like a boy, we see it as 

449
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,200
this like aspiration. 
It's like a promotion for her. 

450
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:38,720
It's like you've achieved 
something well done. 

451
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,840
You're more like a boy, you 
know, be anything a boy can be. 

452
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:45,560
But for a boy to behave more 
like a girl, it's still seen as 

453
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:49,320
like this, like humiliation, 
humiliating, like demotion. 

454
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:53,240
It's like a step down for him. 
And we still have internalized 

455
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:56,840
that, you know, run like a girl,
throw like a girl, act like a 

456
00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:58,600
girl. 
You know, it's a bad thing. 

457
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:01,640
And so I think we have to ask 
ourselves as a culture, what do 

458
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:03,680
we really value? 
And I think those sort of 

459
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:06,400
feminine coded things are 
actually things that are really 

460
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:09,040
important for boys and girls. 
You know, relationships, 

461
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,200
nurturing, empathy, caregiving, 
they're things that are so 

462
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:15,320
important to living a good, 
healthy, valuable life. 

463
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,480
And if we don't value those, and
if we tell boys that these 

464
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:21,320
things are worthless and stupid 
and girly and all the rest of 

465
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:25,080
it, then we're not just 
devaluing girls and women, we're

466
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:28,560
devaluing these like racial 
values and skills. 

467
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,360
And so we need to think about 
what we really value, I think. 

468
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:33,520
And that goes into the workplace
as well. 

469
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,840
You know, I think for ages we've
done women development programs 

470
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:39,440
and part of that has been to 
display what you'd call more 

471
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:43,240
masculine traits rather than 
also working with the men to 

472
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:47,440
help them to be caregivers, to 
have more empathy and, and, and 

473
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:49,520
better listeners and those kind 
of things too. 

474
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:51,920
And a lot of my work is trying 
to work with men to introduce 

475
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:55,680
those, those aspects of life and
understand how that's important 

476
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,160
for the workplace, but just 
themselves as human beings, 

477
00:25:58,160 --> 00:25:59,640
their own longevity and 
well-being. 

478
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,760
When I was looking at the 
research for this, I was 

479
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:06,040
thinking about romantic 
conquests. 

480
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:10,000
And I've found that I think a 
lot of parents, in my 

481
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:15,680
experience, parents of boys will
tend to celebrate their son's 

482
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,200
romantic conquests. 
Now you've got a, you've got a 

483
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,040
girlfriend. 
But yeah, they're really. 

484
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:21,200
I've seen it with my own 
daughter. 

485
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,200
It's quite disturbing and I 
found that with parents of 

486
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,120
girls, they don't do the same 
thing. 

487
00:26:26,120 --> 00:26:30,280
They don't necessarily encourage
their young 910 year old girls 

488
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:34,080
to seek a boyfriend. 
Have you found that in regards 

489
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:39,200
to how parents kind of maybe 
push their own ideas of the 

490
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:41,640
hunter in a relationship to 
their children? 

491
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,960
Even that word conquest, I mean,
you'd never talk about a 

492
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,560
conquest of a young girl. 
Like, oh, you, you've conquered 

493
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:50,720
your boyfriend, you know, 
you've, you know, it's just that

494
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:53,640
word. 
I think everything for boys we 

495
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:57,360
tend to frame in terms of like 
battles and heroism and winning 

496
00:26:57,360 --> 00:26:59,840
and competition. 
And so like girls, you know, 

497
00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:01,960
there's something really icky 
about that isn't that it's like 

498
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:04,320
a conquest of a girl. 
It's not really seeing her as a 

499
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:08,120
human being that you're making 
it like connection with as 

500
00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:12,960
person to person and seeing her 
as a fully developed human. 

501
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:16,080
It's like something that you win
as a prize, you know, and the 

502
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,520
actual person involved is really
incidental. 

503
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:21,080
And I think that's a really 
sexist, sort of misogynistic 

504
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:23,160
message. 
And you're right that with 

505
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:28,680
girls, you know, in some ways we
kind of over emphasize 

506
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,040
relationships for girls. 
So there's this idea that but 

507
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:33,520
maybe when they're bit older, So
it's this idea that you're 

508
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:36,120
nothing without a man, you're 
nothing without a husband. 

509
00:27:36,120 --> 00:27:38,920
You know, you can't be doing it 
on your own. 

510
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:41,960
You know, that's maybe a sort of
slightly older story. 

511
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:46,560
But we do, you know, girls like 
play bride and they dream about 

512
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,200
their weddings and then they 
meet up with boys who have been 

513
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:53,040
taught to see relationships as 
this kind of winning and 

514
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,440
conquest things. 
And so, you know, there's a real

515
00:27:56,440 --> 00:28:00,200
like mismatch of expectations 
when they actually do have 

516
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:01,560
relationships when they're 
older. 

517
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,040
And the other thing is that, you
know, when when they're 

518
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:08,440
teenagers, I think we like 
really overemphasize like sex 

519
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:10,400
for boys in a way. 
It's like, it's sort of like 

520
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,120
they're only interested in one 
thing they're only interested in

521
00:28:13,120 --> 00:28:17,000
like in sex and like conquests 
and all the rest of it. 

522
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:19,800
And girls are only really 
interested in love. 

523
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,720
And I think it kind of tends to 
like underestimate like girls 

524
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:25,680
desire and girls sexual drive. 
Girls need for pleasure. 

525
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:29,960
And also when it comes to boys, 
underestimate their very new 

526
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:32,240
real need for love and 
connection. 

527
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:36,080
You know, every boy I 
interviewed so many boys for, 

528
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:40,640
for the research for boy mom, 
you know, from like 16/15/16 

529
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:43,560
through like college age. 
And I thought they'd be like, 

530
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:47,560
oh, all I care about is sex. 
And that was not the case at 

531
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:49,080
all. 
Every single one of them was 

532
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:52,560
like in love with somebody, you 
know, talking about how much 

533
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:55,440
they love, you know, their 
crushes and the girls or boys or

534
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:58,240
whatever that they were in love 
with, you know, and it was just,

535
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:01,280
I don't think we give them 
permission to be fully human in 

536
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:04,760
that way. 
Did you recall you saying in the

537
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:08,640
book that there is research that
shows that boys and girls want 

538
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:15,080
intimacy equally, that they they
both want intimate, meaningful 

539
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:17,720
relationships? 
But you know, we don't perceive 

540
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:19,240
it that way. 
Yeah. 

541
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:22,200
And what was really interesting 
was that it it's both for like 

542
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,000
romantic relationships, but also
friendships. 

543
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:29,840
Like this was the biggest thing 
that kept coming across through 

544
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,800
all the conversations I had with
boys is that they wanted like 

545
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,160
deeper, more intimate 
connections with their male 

546
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:37,920
friends, but they felt like they
couldn't have them. 

547
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:40,480
They felt like it was shameful 
to be vulnerable. 

548
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:44,640
Like one boy described his 
friendship group as a very 

549
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:47,560
unsupportive support system. 
So it was like they all had fun.

550
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:49,400
They hung out. 
They talked about, you know, 

551
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:52,480
video games and sports and 
whatever it was, but a memes and

552
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:54,440
that kind of thing. 
But they they really felt like 

553
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:57,040
they couldn't share their 
deeper, more fun, vulnerable 

554
00:29:57,280 --> 00:29:59,360
selves. 
And in a way, they just weren't 

555
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:01,320
modeled that they weren't taught
to do it. 

556
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,160
So partly it was like this shame
around it and partly they just 

557
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:07,040
didn't even know how they were. 
Like, where would I even start? 

558
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:10,560
Like, how would I even identify 
it in myself to even start to 

559
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,680
tell it to another person? 
And that's really sad. 

560
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:16,200
That's not what they wanted. 
They really wanted it to be 

561
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:17,160
different. 
But they were just like. 

562
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:19,840
I don't know where to where to 
start with this. 

563
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,760
And it's so sad that that 
continues into adulthood. 

564
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:26,920
You know, a lot of my work with 
men, one of the big things that 

565
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:30,920
come out of that is lack of 
friendships is loneliness. 

566
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:34,000
They may have acquaintances, 
people they go to the football 

567
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:38,200
with, they see the school gates,
but they can't go to when she 

568
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:39,800
hits the fan. 
They haven't got that, that 

569
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:41,920
intimacy. 
And we talk quite a lot about 

570
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,320
the differences in general in 
some male and female friendship 

571
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:46,920
groups. 
And there's a great analogy 

572
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:49,600
about a wedding. 
If you thought about a hen 

573
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:52,120
party, you know that hen is 
going to know she's loved and 

574
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:55,760
supported because she'll be 
giving massages and words of 

575
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:58,760
affirmation and all, all the 
love and she'll know she's loved

576
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:03,880
100% for me and, and maybe us, 
we're going to chain you to that

577
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:07,560
lamppost because I love you so 
much and they're stupid naked 

578
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:11,640
and chain you exactly. 
That's because I love you so 

579
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,040
much. 
That's so true. 

580
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:16,880
But, you know, I've heard so 
much, and we talk a lot about 

581
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,240
male privilege and, you know, 
male power and all of these 

582
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,520
great things that men have in 
our sort of patriarchal system, 

583
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:25,600
but we don't really think about 
what they lose, you know, what 

584
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:28,240
they lose in that system. 
And I think I always was like, 

585
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,840
sexism was about sort of closing
the gap between what men get and

586
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,840
what women want. 
But when I had boys and when I 

587
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:38,000
started researching this 
subject, I was like, you know, 

588
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,200
boys and men get everything 
except for the thing that's most

589
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:45,160
worth having in life, you know, 
which is really profound human 

590
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:48,720
connection. 
And, you know, honestly, yes, 

591
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:50,400
they have power. 
Yes, they have privilege. 

592
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,840
All of those things are real, 
the pay gap, all of that. 

593
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:58,760
But that lack of access to 
connection and intimacy is so 

594
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:02,160
harmful psychologically and that
loneliness that comes with it. 

595
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:06,600
And pretty much every woman I 
know has lots of close friends, 

596
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:09,400
you know, or maybe not lots, but
like a couple of people that you

597
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,000
can really be yourself with. 
And, you know, it's modeled to 

598
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:13,520
us. 
We have best friends all the way

599
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:16,520
from the beginning. 
We read about friendships, 

600
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:20,040
female friendships in books. 
We see it in in movies, we see 

601
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:22,800
it in TV programs. 
We sit in everywhere. 

602
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:25,800
And I think boys are just so 
taught from an early age to, to 

603
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:29,480
see human interaction as 
competitive, combative, you 

604
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,960
know, who's the best winning. 
And let's chain that chain our 

605
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:34,240
friend to the lamppost, you 
know? 

606
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,440
Yeah, the statistics around it 
are quite terrifying. 

607
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,600
I think one in four men say they
don't really have any friends 

608
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:41,840
any close. 
Friends. 

609
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:45,360
Yeah. 
So it's, you know, it's really 

610
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:48,720
concerning, particularly when we
know that men's mental health 

611
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:51,840
tends to be worse than women's. 
And obviously there is a link 

612
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:55,240
there which leads me on to a 
question about the dredge deaths

613
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:59,160
word screens. 
And you know, I mean, I remember

614
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:01,400
reading in your book and I was 
thinking about it the night this

615
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:07,040
happened, that he said something
about what girls, I think it's a

616
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:08,640
friend of yours who had a 
daughter. 

617
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:11,680
And she said the girls will come
over for a sleep over the door, 

618
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:14,640
get into bed with each other and
the door, sit and, like, snuggle

619
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:16,560
up and have and chat together. 
And. 

620
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,680
And I had a sleepover for one of
my sons. 

621
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,160
And they all just sat and stared
at a screen and played video 

622
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:23,680
games and didn't speak to each 
other. 

623
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:25,600
And then they were like, OK, 
it's bedtime. 

624
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:28,080
And I was like, do you not want 
a midnight feast? 

625
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:31,560
Do you not want to, like, run 
around and scream or like, you 

626
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:34,040
know, all the things that I'm 
doing? 

627
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:36,680
Yeah. 
What do you think? 

628
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:38,880
What role do you think screens 
plays in this I? 

629
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:42,280
Think being a boy in this 
particular moment, there's so 

630
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:45,200
many different cultural forces. 
So it's like there's all the old

631
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:47,920
problems which, you know, 
toughen up, man up, don't 

632
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:50,440
express your emotions. 
And then there's a bunch of new 

633
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:53,440
problems both sort of 
politically and also then we add

634
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:56,560
screens into the mix. 
And it's just, I think boys, 

635
00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:01,040
there's so many sort of natural 
problems with boys friendships 

636
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:04,120
anyway that make it sort of 
harder for boys to connect with 

637
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:07,120
one another in that deep way. 
And then screams come into the 

638
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:09,400
mix. 
And it's just such an easy way 

639
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,400
to kind of avoid that kind of 
connection that's already really

640
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:15,320
like a little for a little hard.
They don't really have the 

641
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:17,400
skills. 
And then, you know, the screens 

642
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:21,520
come in, especially video games.
And it's like just a very easy 

643
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:23,199
alternative. 
So they're not building those 

644
00:34:23,199 --> 00:34:28,320
social muscles in a way to like,
just hang out in person, you 

645
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:30,760
know, to get through that social
awkwardness, to get through that

646
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:32,719
anxiety, to get through like, 
what do we talk about? 

647
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:35,239
What do we do? 
And I think, you know, sports is

648
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:38,400
another way, probably a 
healthier way that boys connect.

649
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:41,400
But again, it's not really about
talking or being face to face. 

650
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:44,199
And they're just like, not given
a chance to build those skills. 

651
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:46,159
But I know it's the same with my
boys. 

652
00:34:46,159 --> 00:34:48,440
Their friends will come over and
they're just a bit like, oh, 

653
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:51,239
what do we do, You know? 
And if I say no screens, they're

654
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:53,560
like looking at each other. 
And you don't want to be that 

655
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:56,320
mum who's like the weird house 
where there's no screens 

656
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:58,000
allowed. 
You know, you don't want to, 

657
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,040
like, put your kids at a social 
disadvantage. 

658
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:02,120
But then they just don't develop
those skills. 

659
00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:06,360
And, you know, sometimes I'll 
say like, OK, no screens until 

660
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:10,200
whatever time. 
And they're just like, you know,

661
00:35:10,720 --> 00:35:13,800
and I found for myself actually,
it's sometimes about managing 

662
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:17,000
the discomfort in B as much as 
anything, it's about like 

663
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:18,440
managing my own feelings around 
it. 

664
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:20,920
And if I can get through it and 
just be like, it's OK, they're 

665
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:22,520
going to be OK. 
I have faith in them. 

666
00:35:22,720 --> 00:35:25,800
They'll figure it out, you know,
give them a few suggestions, but

667
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:27,680
just sort of have faith that 
they can do it. 

668
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:31,880
Then eventually they do. 
But it it's a real barrier and 

669
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:39,040
it's really hard. 
So Elliot, you very luckily have

670
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,840
your parents close by and they 
do quite a bit childcare for 

671
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:46,880
you, but they go to Grenada for 
three months every year. 

672
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:48,360
What do you do when they're 
gone? 

673
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:50,560
How do you look after yourself 
and your relationship? 

674
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:53,080
Well, I feel very sorry for 
myself. 

675
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:57,160
Going to Grenada is amazing for 
them, but it's not so great for 

676
00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:59,720
us. 
Luckily, we have Bubble. 

677
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:03,400
Bubble provides us with 
emergency childcare, backup 

678
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:06,760
childcare and ultimately the 
opportunity for us to have date 

679
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:09,880
nights and also go to the spa 
every now and again. 

680
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:12,640
Because as parents we need to 
maintain our identity. 

681
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:15,720
We need to maintain our 
self-care and our relationships.

682
00:36:15,720 --> 00:36:19,280
So Bubble is incredible for 
where my parents jet off to 

683
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:23,200
Grenada. 
Find and book background checked

684
00:36:23,240 --> 00:36:26,080
nannies and sitters. 
They can be with you in as 

685
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:31,520
little as an hour, twisted by 
parents you know Lycos search 

686
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:34,640
bubble childcare in the App 
Store or Google Play store. 

687
00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:43,520
So I was reading about a parent 
who has a son and their son was 

688
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:45,760
playing with their friend. 
Down the road they'll play 

689
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:48,880
online games together, Call of 
Duty, FIFA, whatever. 

690
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,040
And the parent was really trying
to encourage their son to like 

691
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:54,160
socialize more and get out. 
So he said to him, why don't you

692
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:57,640
go to your friend's house and 
spend time together? 

693
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:00,400
And his son said, well, if I did
that, we wouldn't be able to. 

694
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:01,880
Play. 
It's because the. 

695
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:04,120
Whole world, yeah, existed 
online. 

696
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:06,600
They played together through 
online gaming. 

697
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:10,680
And the idea of them spending 
time together in a room, yeah, 

698
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:13,840
it's like, what do we do then? 
Yeah, I mean, it's really, it's 

699
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:18,040
so I've heard like a variation 
of that story so many times from

700
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:19,800
different parents. 
And it's like it looks slightly 

701
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:22,240
different depending on the age 
group or whatever, but it's the 

702
00:37:22,240 --> 00:37:26,400
same thing because like male 
social life is migrating online 

703
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:30,880
and these sort of big 
multiplayer video games and 

704
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:34,640
places like Discord have just 
become the new male social 

705
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:36,720
spaces. 
And it's just sort of drifted 

706
00:37:36,720 --> 00:37:40,080
that way. 
And I think, you know, it's 

707
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:43,440
really worrying and there's lots
of data that supports this idea 

708
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:49,080
that actually boys are spending 
around 5 hours more per week on 

709
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:54,000
screens than girls are and about
5 hours less socializing in the 

710
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:57,760
real world than same age girls 
are, which is really scary. 

711
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:00,960
That's a really big difference. 
And so obviously the screen time

712
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:03,880
debate effects everybody and all
teenagers and all the rest of 

713
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:05,800
it. 
But I think we're missing out 

714
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:07,840
that this is quite a gendered 
problem. 

715
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:11,880
And in a way, many of their sort
of, you know, the hot takes and 

716
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:14,600
a lot of their like, discussion 
around screen time has focused 

717
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:18,040
on girls and things like social 
media and social comparison and 

718
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:20,360
online bullying. 
And we haven't really talked 

719
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:24,360
that much about what's happening
with boys and the way that 

720
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:27,440
they're replacing real life 
socializing with screen based 

721
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:29,880
socializing. 
And the more it becomes like 

722
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:32,760
this self fulfilling prophecy, I
think a lot of boys and a lot of

723
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:35,680
the boys that I spoke to are 
developing almost like social 

724
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:39,160
anxiety around real world 
interactions. 

725
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:40,800
They just don't know how to do 
it. 

726
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:44,640
And so and it becomes scarier 
and scarier and the more scary 

727
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:46,320
it becomes, the more they avoid 
it. 

728
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:49,720
And the more, you know, the more
they avoid it, the less they're 

729
00:38:49,720 --> 00:38:51,400
able to do it. 
And it just becomes like a 

730
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:56,240
vicious circle. 
And similarly with sex, real 

731
00:38:56,240 --> 00:38:59,000
world sex and dating. 
And, you know, now you've got 

732
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:03,560
porn, you know, it's just this 
very easy way to just avoid all 

733
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:08,040
of their like, like challenges 
and fears and anxieties and 

734
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:11,200
rejections and all of the stuff 
that you get around, you know, 

735
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:15,560
real world dating. 
And it's quite a lot of harmful 

736
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:19,240
content as well, I find for for 
young, for young men as well, in

737
00:39:19,240 --> 00:39:23,920
terms of ideas around dating, 
ideas around what you should be 

738
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:26,880
and what success looks like. 
And sometimes I listen to this 

739
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:29,360
because interesting for my work,
so I can see what's going on. 

740
00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:33,760
And I feel like a lot of those 
ideas from like the red pill 

741
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:36,600
space, is this not true in real 
life? 

742
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:38,440
They are not true in real life, 
yes. 

743
00:39:38,720 --> 00:39:42,480
And, but I think it's very easy 
for a 1314 year old boy to see 

744
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,880
this content from someone who 
looks successful and believe you

745
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:48,960
need to earn 6 figures before 
you approach a, a girl and ask 

746
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:50,480
them out for a date. 
And I think it's, it's 

747
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:52,600
ridiculous that yeah, that 
that's happening. 

748
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:56,080
But I can see how a 1314 year 
old young boy would believe that

749
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:59,040
that's that's true. 
Yes, and I think these these 

750
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:01,560
kinds of masculinity influences 
and all the rest of it does have

751
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:05,440
such a huge sway on. 
Boys now, and especially because

752
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:08,840
it's again, it's a sort of 
vicious circle because if 

753
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:11,080
they're not going out and 
meeting people in the real world

754
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:14,600
and seeing what real life is 
like and that all kinds of men 

755
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:17,520
get dates and all kinds of boys 
are successful socially and all 

756
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:20,120
the rest of it, you know, 
they're getting these ideas 

757
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:21,880
online. 
And then that becomes, you know,

758
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:24,440
their world is narrowing, and 
that becomes the truth, you 

759
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:26,360
know, and they feel they have to
live up to that. 

760
00:40:27,720 --> 00:40:30,640
There's, there is quite a bit in
the book which I found really 

761
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:35,760
terrifying from one. 
It's about sex and porn consent.

762
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:40,280
And obviously we've talked a bit
about the influence that porn is

763
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:43,800
having on men's relationships 
with women. 

764
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:47,240
I know that you talk a bit in 
the book about strangulation, 

765
00:40:47,240 --> 00:40:52,240
asphyxiation and the number of 
boys and girls that are 

766
00:40:52,240 --> 00:40:55,720
participating in that. 
But I again, I was really 

767
00:40:55,720 --> 00:40:59,360
surprised by some of the data 
that you found out that actually

768
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:04,280
it tends to be more women doing 
this to boys than the other way 

769
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:06,200
around. 
Well, it's not so much that 

770
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:08,920
it's, well, it's both. 
So it's, it's that. 

771
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:11,400
So I think they're kind of, 
there's this whole conversation 

772
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:13,800
about strangulation and choking,
and often there's a lot of 

773
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:17,080
shaming or most of boys and men 
in this conversation. 

774
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:19,400
So there's this sort of idea 
floating around that all these 

775
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:21,480
boys are like desperate to 
strangle and choke their 

776
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:24,880
girlfriends and girls and don't 
want to and that they're doing 

777
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:27,960
that without their consent. 
And that does happen for sure. 

778
00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:31,840
And it's, you know, and it's 
utterly wrong that that should 

779
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:33,440
ever happen. 
I'm not condoning that in any 

780
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:36,520
way, but the reality of the data
is a lot more complex, I think. 

781
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:39,320
I think there are a lot of boys 
that really don't want to do 

782
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:42,120
that stuff either that either 
don't want it done to them or 

783
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:43,800
don't want to do it to anybody 
else. 

784
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:47,560
But they feel pressure to be a 
masculine and they feel that 

785
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:49,600
that's what girls want and 
expect. 

786
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:52,680
There's lots of, there was 
actually data that showed that 

787
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:55,480
there were more girls who were 
doing it to boys than the other 

788
00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:57,480
way around without asking for 
consent. 

789
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:00,480
And maybe that's because of our 
narratives of consent, this idea

790
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:02,320
that boys are always up for 
everything. 

791
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:04,400
They always want everything. 
They always want everything 

792
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:08,880
sexual and that only girls can 
be assaulted. 

793
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:11,640
And I think that's, you know, 
that narrative is developed for 

794
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:13,600
a reason. 
And obviously get boys are 

795
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:16,680
physically stronger than girls 
and it is really different a boy

796
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:20,120
strangling a girl without her 
consent, then the other way 

797
00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:22,440
around. 
But I think that we're not 

798
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:25,240
really giving boys a good 
narrative when they can where 

799
00:42:25,240 --> 00:42:28,120
they can say that I don't want 
this, this doesn't feel good to 

800
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:29,840
me. 
I don't want to either do it to 

801
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:32,080
somebody else or have it done to
me. 

802
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:34,280
You know, I feel like that 
consent conversation has really 

803
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:37,720
only gone in One Direction, and 
it's the most important 

804
00:42:37,720 --> 00:42:40,000
direction, but the other 
direction is also important, you

805
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:43,560
know, And I think there are a 
lot of girls who are almost like

806
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:47,400
policing boys masculinity and 
expecting them to act that way 

807
00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:50,000
and saying, well, if he doesn't 
do that, he's not very 

808
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:52,160
masculine. 
He's not a real man. 

809
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:55,120
He's not, you know, he's not 
aggressive or dominant enough. 

810
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:59,080
And I think boys in this moment 
are just so paralyzed in how to 

811
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:01,000
act. 
You know, on the one hand, 

812
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:03,680
they're held to the standards of
masculinity, which is like, be 

813
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:05,760
tough, be dominant, be 
aggressive, be assertive, be a 

814
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:08,000
real man. 
And, you know, everybody's 

815
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:10,720
policing that. 
You know, girls are policing it,

816
00:43:10,720 --> 00:43:13,280
society's policing it. 
But on the other hand, there's 

817
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:17,680
this like other narrative post 
me too about consent and never 

818
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:21,080
overstep, never go too far. 
You know, boys are sort of 

819
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:23,080
predators. 
They're rapists. 

820
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:25,200
And so they're just like, oh, I 
can't do that. 

821
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:27,600
And they just almost, they don't
know how to act at all. 

822
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:30,200
So it's almost like easier to 
just watch porn than it is to 

823
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:34,360
try to have a real relationship 
or real sexual life with an 

824
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:38,200
actual human. 
Boys are having less sex than 

825
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:41,000
than they ever have been, is 
that right? 

826
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:44,440
Yeah. 
So boys, so you see that the 

827
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:47,040
trends that are happening with 
like socializing and friendship 

828
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:50,240
in terms of like boys are 
spending less time friends. 

829
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:55,000
They're also having less sexual 
and romantic contact than they 

830
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:58,000
ever have before or ever since 
researchers like started 

831
00:43:58,000 --> 00:43:59,920
tracking back in the 70s or 
whatever it was. 

832
00:43:59,920 --> 00:44:04,160
So it's this boys are becoming 
more and more and more isolated 

833
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:07,680
and this isn't healthy. 
I think boys are very scared of 

834
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:13,080
the consent me to conversation 
and, you know, getting accused 

835
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:15,400
of something or hurting 
somebody, you know, doing 

836
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:18,000
something wrong. 
I think that this generation of 

837
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:21,200
boys in particular have grown 
up, you know, the boys who were 

838
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:24,320
going through puberty when the 
me Too movement kind of exploded

839
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:27,720
online and now voting age, 
university age. 

840
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:30,960
And they have spent their whole 
adolescence in the shadow of 

841
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:33,800
this conversation telling them 
they're toxic, they're bad, 

842
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:36,920
they're predators, they're rape 
it, you know, And those 

843
00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:38,360
conversations were really 
important. 

844
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:41,000
And of course, it's important 
for boys to know about consent. 

845
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:44,120
But I think there's a generation
of boys who are scared stiff. 

846
00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:48,880
Yeah. 
Yeah, And at your chapter Rape 

847
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:55,240
Con, I felt, I reading it, I 
felt conflicted like you did. 

848
00:44:55,240 --> 00:45:00,320
I could feel the conflict as you
were talking about the research 

849
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:03,920
that you were doing and as you 
were talking to mothers of boys 

850
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:06,880
who've been accused of sexual 
assault, who were convinced that

851
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:09,480
their sons hadn't done anything 
wrong. 

852
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:14,360
And you know, as you know, many 
mothers listening to this, like 

853
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:17,640
me, will have experienced sexual
assault, will have experienced 

854
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:20,800
not being believed when you say 
a man has done something to you 

855
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:24,040
that was inappropriate. 
And so you, you bring that 

856
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:28,440
baggage to that conversation 
inevitably as a woman. 

857
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:32,200
But I'd, I'd love you to talk a 
little bit about those those 

858
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:35,760
experiences you had while 
researching this, particularly 

859
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:37,880
that conference you went to, 
which all of that was 

860
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:39,320
fascinating. 
Yeah. 

861
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:41,920
I mean this was. 
Far and away the hardest part of

862
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:44,680
this book to write because like 
you, I'm a feminist. 

863
00:45:44,720 --> 00:45:47,800
I really want to get across the 
belief women message. 

864
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:50,880
You know, I've had my own 
experiences and most girls that 

865
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:53,560
I know are women that I know 
have had some level of 

866
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:58,600
experience with like sexual 
harassment or sexual violence or

867
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:01,760
not being believed. 
And this was, you know, so true 

868
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:03,960
this, this thing. 
And it still is true that women 

869
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:05,720
will report these things and not
be believed. 

870
00:46:05,720 --> 00:46:11,960
So it's like, but there's also 
this new situation in which boys

871
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:15,040
are being accused of things that
didn't happen. 

872
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:18,680
Or maybe, you know, there are 
two very legitimate perspectives

873
00:46:18,720 --> 00:46:22,760
on the same event. 
And I was so because it's almost

874
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:25,040
feels like in this moment, this 
issue is so fraught that there's

875
00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:28,920
only room for one story. 
It's either, you know, girls are

876
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:33,680
liars and they're trying to ruin
men's lives, or boys are these 

877
00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:36,400
poor victims and these terrible 
lion girls are saying that 

878
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:38,520
they're, you know, they're 
resulting them when they're not.

879
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:42,160
And actually, human 
relationships are so much more 

880
00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:45,840
complicated than that. 
There are of course stories 

881
00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:49,480
where like a boy will force a 
girl to do something and it's 

882
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:52,480
terrible and all the rest of it.
But there are also many, many 

883
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:56,800
times when boys and girls can be
in an encounter and people are 

884
00:46:56,800 --> 00:47:00,560
not reading signals correctly. 
And one person will have one 

885
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:02,920
perspective, another person will
have another perspective. 

886
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:06,040
Something can feel really, 
really bad to a girl and feel 

887
00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:09,720
really icky and unpleasant, but 
still not be assault, that it's 

888
00:47:09,720 --> 00:47:12,000
not criminal. 
And so I went to this 

889
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:14,720
conference. 
It was a conference for boys 

890
00:47:14,720 --> 00:47:17,120
who'd been accused of campus 
sexual assault. 

891
00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:20,640
I live in the States and this 
was in America, and campus 

892
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:22,280
sexual assault is a big problem 
here. 

893
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:26,760
And I went into this conference 
being like, you know, these 

894
00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:30,760
rapist boys, they're terrible. 
Why are their mothers or parents

895
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:33,760
defending them? 
You know, they should go to the 

896
00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:37,720
dogs that, you know, no 
punishment is too, too bad for 

897
00:47:37,720 --> 00:47:40,400
them. 
And the more I listened to these

898
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:43,000
stories, the more I realized 
that these are just, these cases

899
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:45,280
are just so sad. 
And there was no due process. 

900
00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:48,320
They were just being expelled 
from university. 

901
00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:51,240
Things were decided. 
And then eventually I only focus

902
00:47:51,240 --> 00:47:53,600
in that chapter. 
I only focused on cases which 

903
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:57,360
had already been settled through
official procedures. 

904
00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:01,160
So I didn't, it wasn't for me as
a journalist to like try and 

905
00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:05,280
adjudicate an assault case, you 
know, but these were cases where

906
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:07,880
a boy had been suspended from 
college. 

907
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:09,560
His life had basically been 
ruined. 

908
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:11,560
His friends wouldn't talk to him
anymore. 

909
00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:13,920
He'd been cancelled. 
His, he was usually in the 

910
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:18,000
terrible, terrible depression. 
He would appeal the case and it 

911
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:20,120
would go through several rounds.
And then often there would be a 

912
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:23,280
lawsuit and like, a legal case, 
and it would find, it would 

913
00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:26,440
find, you know, after surveying 
all the evidence that he had not

914
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:30,600
been treated fairly, that there 
was no due process, that he 

915
00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:32,240
hadn't really done anything 
wrong. 

916
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:35,560
And then it was settled. 
And he'd get a payout, usually 

917
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:38,560
from the university at the end. 
But it was just like the payout,

918
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:41,120
his legal cost was so high it 
would barely even cover that. 

919
00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:43,440
His life has been ruined. 
He's like, tarnished as a 

920
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:46,160
rapist. 
And, you know, but as a 

921
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:48,600
feminist, it was so hard to 
report on those stories. 

922
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:52,280
I felt like I was almost 
betraying women, betraying 

923
00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:55,080
feminism by saying this is even 
possible, that you're sort of 

924
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:56,280
saying, well, don't believe 
women. 

925
00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:59,240
And that's absolutely not what I
want to say at all, because 

926
00:48:59,240 --> 00:49:01,000
that's still a really serious 
problem. 

927
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:06,200
And I think it's so good that 
you've had this conversation and

928
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:09,800
you are becoming part of the 
reason we haven't addressed 

929
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:11,280
these issues. 
Now, we were talking earlier 

930
00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:14,840
about the fact that there aren't
many kind of podcasts around 

931
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:16,400
this. 
There isn't much conversation 

932
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:20,360
around this, just globally. 
And I think it is so sensitive, 

933
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:24,280
it is so conflicting. 
And it's difficult to address. 

934
00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:27,160
But I think, you know, thank you
first and foremost. 

935
00:49:27,720 --> 00:49:29,600
It's really good that you're 
bringing this to the forefront 

936
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:31,600
because they are important 
conversations to have. 

937
00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:35,240
And I think from my perspective,
when I'm working, you know, with

938
00:49:35,240 --> 00:49:38,720
men, with dads to improve their 
lives and help them to see the 

939
00:49:38,720 --> 00:49:41,080
world differently together, 
whatever that means for them. 

940
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:45,440
I always have to say it's not 
just for the dads and the men, 

941
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:49,000
it's for everybody. 
It's because if we support dads 

942
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:51,880
to be more equal caregivers, 
that's better for workplace 

943
00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:53,680
gender equality for women in 
them, uphead penalty. 

944
00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:55,960
And kind of, you know, always 
have to preface it with that. 

945
00:49:55,960 --> 00:49:59,120
I guess I think it's part of the
tricky conversation is talking 

946
00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:02,720
about some of the negative 
experiences that men face when 

947
00:50:02,720 --> 00:50:05,680
we have so much privilege. 
Yes, it's just difficult to 

948
00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:07,560
bring to the forefront. 
But we have to, and we have to 

949
00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:08,440
be brave. 
Yeah. 

950
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:11,120
And we have to put it on the 
table and we have to consider 

951
00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:13,120
and discuss. 
And I think also we shouldn't 

952
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:14,440
see it as. 
A 0 sum game. 

953
00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:17,160
I think in our culture at the 
moment, it's like if we talk 

954
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:19,280
about men, then we're sort of 
doing something terrible to 

955
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:23,000
women or that we're like taking 
away from the feminist fight and

956
00:50:23,240 --> 00:50:25,840
or vice versa, You know, men are
feeling it the other way around 

957
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:28,160
that like women's gain is their 
loss. 

958
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:31,840
But actually this system, you 
know, this idea that there's 

959
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:35,280
this stereotype gender roles, 
that these expectations, this 

960
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:39,040
like patriarchal system is 
really harming both men and 

961
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:42,480
women in different ways. 
And I think we need to be able 

962
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:45,400
to have a very honest and fair 
conversation. 

963
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:48,960
And I think boys especially, you
know, it's so new this this 

964
00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:51,040
conversation in a way. 
And I think boys feel really 

965
00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:55,480
shut down and really like, you 
know, at the moment, it feels 

966
00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:58,000
like people are only listening 
to girls and women. 

967
00:50:58,040 --> 00:51:01,800
And, you know, obviously that's 
to be set in the context of the 

968
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:03,760
entire history of oppression of 
women. 

969
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:07,760
But you can see if you're a 15 
year old boy, you didn't do any 

970
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:09,840
of those bad things. 
You're not Harvey Weinstein. 

971
00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:13,640
You're just like trying to live 
your life and it feels like boys

972
00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:16,400
need to be able to have a voice 
to be able to talk about the 

973
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:20,280
issues for them as well. 
Beautifully put. 

974
00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:25,000
I'm going to just bring it back 
a little bit to education just 

975
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:28,120
because I don't want to miss 
this brilliant chapter that 

976
00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:29,920
you've written on the education 
system. 

977
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:33,440
And we know that boys are doing 
worse in the education system 

978
00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:35,640
than girls are. 
They are in the UK, they are in 

979
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:37,920
the US. 
We know that boys are much more 

980
00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:41,920
likely to be excluded. 
We know that if they go into 

981
00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:44,880
higher education, they're much, 
much more likely to drop out. 

982
00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:49,360
Could you, I found some of the 
stuff you said in there that I, 

983
00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:52,400
the way I had interpreted what 
was happening in schools. 

984
00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:55,920
You, you talk, you talked a bit 
about some of the theories and 

985
00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:59,680
that people have and why they're
not necessarily true, which I 

986
00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:01,880
found really interesting because
you actually dispelled some of 

987
00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:05,240
the things, the myths that were 
floating around in my head. 

988
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:06,560
Yeah. 
Could you talk a little bit 

989
00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:08,840
about what you think's going on?
I think there's lots of 

990
00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:11,360
different things. 
Going on but one of the is the 

991
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:14,480
boys are underachieving in 
school compared with girls. 

992
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:16,680
So girls have been doing better 
and better and better. 

993
00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:19,920
So it used to be that girls were
held back, but as soon as those 

994
00:52:19,920 --> 00:52:23,440
barriers to girls achievement 
were taken away, you know, since

995
00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:25,720
around the 80s, girls have been,
you know, gaining on boys, 

996
00:52:25,720 --> 00:52:28,080
gaining on boys and now they've 
overtaken boys and pretty much 

997
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:31,800
everything from every every 
level of schooling from like 

998
00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:35,920
reception through to university 
postgraduate degrees beyond. 

999
00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:41,000
And there are lots of reasons 
for this. 

1000
00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:43,760
It's a really complex topic, so 
I don't want to oversimplify. 

1001
00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:47,800
But one of the big sort of 
pushes in the way that people 

1002
00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:51,640
talk about this is this, that 
the reason why boys are 

1003
00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:54,200
underachieving is because we've 
kind of like feminized the 

1004
00:52:54,200 --> 00:52:56,520
classroom. 
Like we've made school like 

1005
00:52:56,520 --> 00:52:58,760
suitable for girls, but not 
suitable for boys. 

1006
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:01,880
And there's this real push to 
sort of go back to let boys be 

1007
00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:07,000
boys and let them be, you know, 
more masculine and you know, 

1008
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:10,920
that their sort of natural 
interests are being squashed and

1009
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:14,400
all the rest of it. 
Now, I took issue with this idea

1010
00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:18,520
in the chapter by saying that 
actually it's a lot of the times

1011
00:53:18,520 --> 00:53:20,800
it's really the opposite thing 
that's going on, that the kind 

1012
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:23,560
of masculine norms that are 
like, be tough, be strong, you 

1013
00:53:23,560 --> 00:53:26,080
know, other things, the very 
things that are holding boys 

1014
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:29,560
back in the classroom. 
And these stories that like that

1015
00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:34,120
studying is kind of girly and 
that it's feminized and that 

1016
00:53:34,120 --> 00:53:37,520
it's is actually the thing 
that's keeping boys from 

1017
00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:39,880
achieving. 
And also when you talk about 

1018
00:53:39,880 --> 00:53:43,560
sort of feminine coded things, 
things like social emotional 

1019
00:53:43,560 --> 00:53:47,040
learning and like building 
really strong relationships in 

1020
00:53:47,040 --> 00:53:49,720
the classroom are sort of, you 
know, not that those things 

1021
00:53:49,720 --> 00:53:52,720
should be feminine or masculine,
they should just be human, but 

1022
00:53:52,720 --> 00:53:54,200
they're kind of coded as 
feminine. 

1023
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:57,000
Those are actually the things 
that would probably help boys 

1024
00:53:57,000 --> 00:54:00,360
the most in the classroom rather
than going back to some like, 

1025
00:54:00,560 --> 00:54:03,080
we're all at war and what we 
need is more competition and 

1026
00:54:03,080 --> 00:54:05,800
what we need is more violence. 
Boys need, you know, it goes 

1027
00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:07,760
back to what we were talking 
about at the beginning, which is

1028
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:10,600
boys need more nurturing. 
They need more emphasis on 

1029
00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:13,280
social emotional learning. 
They need more relationship 

1030
00:54:13,280 --> 00:54:15,720
stuff. 
They need more nurture. 

1031
00:54:15,720 --> 00:54:18,280
And that kind of nurturing 
environment, which we've coded 

1032
00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:21,640
as feminine, you know, actually 
would benefit boys. 

1033
00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:24,600
And there's lots of data on this
that shows that boys really 

1034
00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:28,240
benefit from, you know, having 
more social emotional input. 

1035
00:54:28,240 --> 00:54:33,320
Fascinating. 
I I really. 

1036
00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:36,720
Want to get from. 
You because there is again, 

1037
00:54:36,720 --> 00:54:40,760
there's the stuff in this in the
book which I found so useful an 

1038
00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:45,680
idea of what we can do, Ruth. 
I mean, help us, help me. 

1039
00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:48,560
What would you say from? 
All of the. 

1040
00:54:48,560 --> 00:54:50,080
Brilliant research that you've 
done. 

1041
00:54:50,080 --> 00:54:53,320
What are the messages you would 
have for the parents? 

1042
00:54:53,320 --> 00:54:56,640
Less parents of boys listening, 
I think people, really. 

1043
00:54:56,640 --> 00:54:58,680
When I talk to people about 
this, what they really want is 

1044
00:54:58,680 --> 00:55:01,320
me to give them like some script
that is like, these are the 

1045
00:55:01,320 --> 00:55:03,960
exact words to say to you that 
will fix everything. 

1046
00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:08,000
And you know, obviously, you 
know, I wish that were true, but

1047
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:11,120
it's not really true because, 
you know, every child is 

1048
00:55:11,120 --> 00:55:12,760
different, every adult is 
different. 

1049
00:55:13,040 --> 00:55:17,000
But when I, when I think about 
what, you know, what solutions 

1050
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:19,360
there are, how we can move 
differently, I tend to split it 

1051
00:55:19,360 --> 00:55:23,960
up into like 3 areas as just 
more as like ways to think about

1052
00:55:24,000 --> 00:55:28,040
how to interact with your son 
rather than like very specific 

1053
00:55:28,040 --> 00:55:31,320
actions. 
But so they, those three areas 

1054
00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:35,880
are critical thinking, curiosity
and care and connection. 

1055
00:55:36,720 --> 00:55:38,920
So critical thinking. 
I think part of this is just 

1056
00:55:38,920 --> 00:55:41,480
naming the problem. 
I think that we've done a really

1057
00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:44,080
good job with girls and women. 
Obviously it's not over, but 

1058
00:55:44,080 --> 00:55:48,320
we've done a really good job of 
being able to call out when we 

1059
00:55:48,320 --> 00:55:51,320
see sexism. 
And most people, most, you know,

1060
00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:55,400
even like 11 year old girls can 
usually spot when something is 

1061
00:55:55,400 --> 00:55:59,080
sexist and be like, oh, why are 
all the boys, you know, getting 

1062
00:55:59,080 --> 00:56:01,920
the top jobs and the girls not 
or why is the Princess being 

1063
00:56:01,920 --> 00:56:04,400
rescued by the Prince? 
You know? 

1064
00:56:04,400 --> 00:56:06,960
So I think they have a language 
and vocabulary to talk about it.

1065
00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:09,800
And I think we're really behind 
with that when it comes to boys.

1066
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:12,920
They're not really able to name 
the problem and it feels 

1067
00:56:12,920 --> 00:56:16,600
shameful to name it. 
And like, for instance, you 

1068
00:56:16,600 --> 00:56:18,400
know, just a really small 
example. 

1069
00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:22,560
I don't know if you guys ever 
saw the film Inside Out, you 

1070
00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:25,680
know, the Inside Out maybe. 
So it's this. 

1071
00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:26,880
I love Inside Out. 
Yeah. 

1072
00:56:26,880 --> 00:56:28,840
It's amazing. 
Inside Out too is even better as

1073
00:56:28,840 --> 00:56:29,120
well. 
Yeah. 

1074
00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:30,640
So it's like this brilliant film
I. 

1075
00:56:30,640 --> 00:56:32,680
Loved it. 
I took my boys to, we binge 

1076
00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:36,040
watched the whole like 1-2 and 
all the little shorts and it's 

1077
00:56:36,040 --> 00:56:38,520
this wonderful film and it's all
about a girl who's got this 

1078
00:56:38,520 --> 00:56:41,920
really complex emotional life 
and she's like all her friends 

1079
00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:44,640
have a complex emotional life, 
Her mum has a complex emotional 

1080
00:56:44,640 --> 00:56:46,200
life. 
You're tracking each other's 

1081
00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:50,120
emotions, but like every time a 
male character comes on screen 

1082
00:56:50,120 --> 00:56:53,760
in any of those movies, that 
person is an emotional idiot. 

1083
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:57,680
Like you go inside their brain 
and the emotions have their like

1084
00:56:57,680 --> 00:57:00,760
feet up on the on the desk and 
they're checked out and they're 

1085
00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:04,320
watching the football and 
they're like go and they don't 

1086
00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:06,280
know what anyone else is feeling
or thinking. 

1087
00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:11,160
And it was just like, if that 
was a stereotype about a girl in

1088
00:57:11,160 --> 00:57:14,320
a mainstream Pixar or Disney 
movie or whatever, you know, if 

1089
00:57:14,320 --> 00:57:17,520
it was a stereotype about a girl
being like ditzy or bad at maths

1090
00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:21,240
or whatever, we wouldn't let it 
pass and we shouldn't let it 

1091
00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:24,160
pass for boys and men with 
emotions, you know, So I'm like 

1092
00:57:24,160 --> 00:57:28,560
watching this with my sons and 
being like, how, you know, what 

1093
00:57:28,560 --> 00:57:31,400
message are we giving them that 
that everyone can have a complex

1094
00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:34,160
emotional life except for them 
that they're not capable of 

1095
00:57:34,160 --> 00:57:36,400
that, you know? 
So I think it's just about 

1096
00:57:36,480 --> 00:57:39,480
hauling these things out in 
popular culture, seeing them 

1097
00:57:39,720 --> 00:57:42,200
doing the critical thinking 
ourselves, having these 

1098
00:57:42,200 --> 00:57:44,320
discussions about it, talking 
about it more and more. 

1099
00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:48,240
And just like making these ideas
normal currency in the culture 

1100
00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:51,280
that so that when people, when 
boys feel weird about stuff, 

1101
00:57:51,280 --> 00:57:54,120
they can draw on, you know, on 
these conversations. 

1102
00:57:54,520 --> 00:57:56,080
So that's the critical thinking 
piece. 

1103
00:57:56,440 --> 00:58:00,400
Curiosity, I think is the is 
what we were talking about just 

1104
00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:02,440
before that. 
I think a lot of boys feel very 

1105
00:58:02,440 --> 00:58:05,000
shut down in this moment. 
They feel like girls are allowed

1106
00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:06,760
to speak. 
Girls are allowed to talk about 

1107
00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:09,080
their pain, that nobody's really
interested. 

1108
00:58:09,080 --> 00:58:11,640
Everyone's saying, you know, 
you're so privileged, you're so 

1109
00:58:11,640 --> 00:58:14,840
powerful, you have everything 
time to be quiet, take up less 

1110
00:58:14,840 --> 00:58:17,040
space. 
And actually when I talk to 

1111
00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:19,760
boys, they're feeling like 
nobody's really interested in 

1112
00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:21,880
them and what they feel and what
they're going through and what 

1113
00:58:21,880 --> 00:58:24,000
they think. 
So, and I think especially it's 

1114
00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:27,640
like feminist moms, this is real
pressure to like, not raise a 

1115
00:58:27,640 --> 00:58:30,760
toxic son and to like be really 
strict with him and like not, 

1116
00:58:30,960 --> 00:58:33,800
you know, make sure that he's 
not terrible. 

1117
00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:37,920
And I think it can end up being 
that we're always judging and 

1118
00:58:37,920 --> 00:58:40,680
reforming our sons and like 
trying to make them different or

1119
00:58:40,680 --> 00:58:44,000
like imposing an agenda and not 
really showing this genuine 

1120
00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:47,680
curiosity about what it's like 
to be them in this moment. 

1121
00:58:47,960 --> 00:58:50,320
So I think that and the boys 
that I interviewed was just 

1122
00:58:50,680 --> 00:58:53,800
crying out for people to listen 
to them, to talk to them. 

1123
00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:56,720
And that doesn't mean accepting 
every sexist thing they say, but

1124
00:58:56,720 --> 00:58:58,440
just be like, what is life like 
for you? 

1125
00:58:58,440 --> 00:59:01,000
I'm not trying to change you. 
I'm not trying to reform you. 

1126
00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:04,840
I'm just listening to you. 
And then the caring connection 

1127
00:59:04,840 --> 00:59:10,200
piece is, you know, as we talked
about, boys are kind of slightly

1128
00:59:10,200 --> 00:59:13,920
under nurtured in our culture. 
We tend to touch boys less. 

1129
00:59:13,920 --> 00:59:17,040
We talk to them about their 
emotions less. 

1130
00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:19,440
We give them, you know, we tell 
them to man up. 

1131
00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:22,560
We tell them to be tough, you 
know, and often, like, 

1132
00:59:22,560 --> 00:59:24,840
especially with teenage boys, we
let them kind of go off into 

1133
00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:28,920
their rooms and just, you know, 
disassociate a little bit. 

1134
00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:32,560
And I think the only way we can 
reach them and the only way that

1135
00:59:32,560 --> 00:59:36,000
we can teach them to care about 
other people is to build the 

1136
00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:39,160
best possible relationship with 
them that we can. 

1137
00:59:39,400 --> 00:59:43,440
So meet them where they are, 
advocate for the make them feel 

1138
00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:46,720
loved, give them a lot of hugs 
and touch and positive care, 

1139
00:59:46,800 --> 00:59:51,080
make them feel like we're on 
their side and just build the 

1140
00:59:51,080 --> 00:59:55,200
very best relationship you can 
as your authentic self with the 

1141
00:59:55,200 --> 00:59:59,320
specific child that you have. 
You know, and it sounds obvious 

1142
00:59:59,320 --> 01:00:01,120
and it shouldn't. 
You know, and it should be 

1143
01:00:01,120 --> 01:00:03,640
obvious, but it kind of isn't, 
you know, I think, boys. 

1144
01:00:04,600 --> 01:00:07,400
You know, there's a stereotype 
of the boy mom being like this, 

1145
01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:11,080
like over indulging, you know, 
but actually really kind of the 

1146
01:00:11,080 --> 01:00:13,680
opposite is true. 
And I think we just need to 

1147
01:00:13,680 --> 01:00:17,520
build that very caring, very 
nurturing relationship with our 

1148
01:00:17,520 --> 01:00:20,040
son so that we model that and 
then he can bring that to other 

1149
01:00:20,040 --> 01:00:22,400
people too. 
Love. 

1150
01:00:22,400 --> 01:00:24,480
That, that is brilliant. 
Thank you. 

1151
01:00:26,440 --> 01:00:30,760
Look, everybody buy this book, 
like buy this book. 

1152
01:00:30,760 --> 01:00:33,440
It's so good. 
It's so good. 

1153
01:00:33,800 --> 01:00:36,840
And Ruth, where can people find 
you besides obviously buying the

1154
01:00:36,840 --> 01:00:38,800
book, which everybody should do.
Well, thank you. 

1155
01:00:38,800 --> 01:00:39,480
Yeah. 
So. 

1156
01:00:39,680 --> 01:00:41,880
Burke obviously I'm on 
Instagram. 

1157
01:00:41,880 --> 01:00:43,600
Ruth Whitman, it's two PS in the
middle. 

1158
01:00:43,600 --> 01:00:46,880
And I write a sub stack called I
Blame Society. 

1159
01:00:46,880 --> 01:00:48,640
So if you're on sub stack, come 
and find me. 

1160
01:00:48,640 --> 01:00:52,200
And I ran a monthly discussion 
group about these issues, about 

1161
01:00:52,200 --> 01:00:55,040
boys, about men, masculinity. 
And it's always really 

1162
01:00:55,040 --> 01:00:57,440
interesting. 
People have great things to talk

1163
01:00:57,440 --> 01:00:59,360
about. 
And I write about this subject 

1164
01:00:59,360 --> 01:01:02,600
on there as well. 
So yeah, on sub stack and 

1165
01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:04,880
Instagram and Ruf, you said 
something. 

1166
01:01:05,000 --> 01:01:08,520
Which is going to stick with me.
You said lots of men and boys 

1167
01:01:08,520 --> 01:01:11,800
have everything apart from the 
one that's most important, 

1168
01:01:11,800 --> 01:01:14,640
that's human connection. 
And I think the way you've said 

1169
01:01:14,640 --> 01:01:18,480
that is incredible. 
And I think it sums up a lot of,

1170
01:01:18,480 --> 01:01:20,000
like, what we're trying to do 
with this podcast. 

1171
01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:22,240
So, yeah, just thank you. 
Thank you so much. 

1172
01:01:22,240 --> 01:01:24,240
I've loved this conversation. 
It's been such a pleasure 

1173
01:01:24,240 --> 01:01:25,160
talking. 
With you both. 

1174
01:01:25,160 --> 01:01:27,280
Thank you. 
Thank you.