1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:04,880 This episode is supported by Movember, the leading charity 2 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:07,080 changing the face of Men's Health. 3 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:17,040 Welcome back to the To be a Boy podcast with me, Elliot Ray and 4 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:20,880 my Co host Jodie. Really happy half term. 5 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:22,680 Are you melting in the? Heat. 6 00:00:23,240 --> 00:00:26,320 I'm sure the UK is either like really cold and raining or just 7 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:31,680 Sahara desert temperatures. So get your fan, relax, get in 8 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:35,080 the car, take a drive with the windows open the AC and enjoy 9 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:37,680 today's episode. We are doing a rerun for you. 10 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:43,080 John Amici was brilliant, superb, fantastic, like all the 11 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:44,480 words to describe how good he was. 12 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:48,280 And he spoke so openly about what it means to be a man in 13 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:53,640 today's world and the dynamics of being a black, tall big man 14 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:56,600 and how people respond to him and how we can create more 15 00:00:56,600 --> 00:00:58,800 inclusive workplaces and what boys need from us. 16 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:01,000 And it was such a good episode that we thought, you know what, 17 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:05,200 for this half term, let's rerun, let's spin it back, let's do it 18 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:08,480 again. So we are delighted to offer you 19 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:12,720 John Amici. Today we are joined by John 20 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:17,000 Amici, organizational psychologist, New York Times 21 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:19,840 bestselling author, and former NBA player. 22 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:23,800 John is one of the most powerful voices we have on leadership, 23 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:27,080 culture and what it means to thrive as a human being. 24 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:30,520 He challenges us to think differently about identity, 25 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:34,200 belonging, and the stories we tell our boys and men about 26 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:38,080 themselves. I was introduced to John and his 27 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:42,840 work by my partner who's also an ex basketball player and 28 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:46,360 honestly, if he could have posters in his bedroom, if I let 29 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:49,440 him have posters in his bedroom, you would be front and centre. 30 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:52,800 We'd have just a massive John Amici poster in our bedroom. 31 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:59,120 So I really want to start with sport because sport is really 32 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:02,760 important at my house. I have two boys and for my boys 33 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:07,320 and my partner, it's become such a central play, such a central 34 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:09,800 role in their lives and it didn't play a big role in my 35 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:14,080 life growing up and it feels to me like sport plays a particular 36 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:19,120 role for boys. So, John, I'd like to start by 37 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:22,120 asking you what sport did for you when you were growing up. 38 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:27,440 So I had a I've had the worst and the best of experiences in 39 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:30,160 sport. I started playing basketball for 40 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:38,640 reasons unrelated to sport, money, professional athlete life 41 00:02:38,640 --> 00:02:42,280 or lifestyle. I started because I thought I 42 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:45,840 could find a place where I would fit in, where people wouldn't 43 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:48,720 look at me and be afraid. Where people would look at me 44 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:53,040 and see my potential rather than imagine me a criminal. 45 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:58,520 And that's exactly what I found in a tiny, rather urine smelling 46 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:01,080 gym in Chorlton, near Manchester. 47 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:04,840 I walked in the front door for my first basketball training 48 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:08,840 session, and I kind of ducked through this tiny little door 49 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:12,600 into a gym where people were already playing, and everything 50 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:15,400 stopped. People stopped. 51 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:19,360 They looked at me and they ran towards me, which in my regular 52 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:21,520 life is a terribly frightening thing to happen. 53 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:23,880 But in this context, they grabbed me by the arms and they 54 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:25,600 were like, this guy is on our team. 55 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:28,880 And that was the moment I knew I was going to play basketball and 56 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:30,760 do it in every way I possibly could. 57 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:32,200 And it was nothing to do with the game. 58 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:34,720 I'd never played the game. I'd never touched a basketball. 59 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:38,440 It was simply the idea that what a difference it was to walk into 60 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:42,400 this space where you felt that people wanted you there, were 61 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:45,840 not afraid of you, almost envied the things that other people 62 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:49,000 found frightening about you. And then when you get into the 63 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:53,000 sport, you suddenly realize that there's a real intimacy to it. 64 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:56,160 I think he's on the base. When sport is done well, one of 65 00:03:56,160 --> 00:04:00,040 the best things about it is it provides access to men who often 66 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:04,080 denied it or more accurately, deny themselves real intimacy, 67 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:07,840 especially with other men. It provides a space for intimacy 68 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:12,720 where people can, when we think about sport at it's best, how 69 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:16,360 when even if you're not playing, if you're just watching sport, 70 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:21,279 your team loses and you can hug the man next to you and, and 71 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:24,160 nobody misunderstands what is happening. 72 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:29,240 Where when there is success, you can be jubilant and and 73 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:33,840 frivolous and frolicky with other men and nobody 74 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:37,240 misunderstands. It provides A context for very 75 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:42,120 normal, very healthy behaviors that men sometimes, all too 76 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:45,000 often, are denied outside of it. And that's what sport did for me 77 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:47,280 at its best. It did some mad stuff too, but 78 00:04:47,280 --> 00:04:49,880 that was the beginning and that's what it can do at its 79 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:53,120 best, I think. And do you think, are there are 80 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:55,880 there other things that it taught you about masculinity? 81 00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:59,080 Do you think there's something about team sports for men rather 82 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:04,120 than individual sports that really helps them thrive and and 83 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:09,520 learn about interaction with other whether the boys and 84 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:12,600 whether the men there were the things that things you think it 85 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:15,680 gives you. So, so there's a difference 86 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:20,960 between amateur or kind of community level sport and 87 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:24,320 professional sport. Because in professional sports 88 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:27,000 and athletics, there are no individual sports. 89 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:30,400 I know you might be thinking of runners or shot putters or 90 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:32,760 whatever else, but there's no such thing as an individual 91 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:35,640 sport with with with them or with basketball players too. 92 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:38,520 And it's not just the people on the court with you or on your 93 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:40,840 team, it's this extended group of people. 94 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:44,000 So you learn those lessons in professional sport, regardless 95 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:46,680 of whether you are a single person in the eye of a an 96 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:50,560 audience member or a fan in community sport. 97 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:53,160 I think there is a difference because so many young people 98 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:56,240 find provision for individual sports lacking. 99 00:05:56,520 --> 00:05:59,680 And so the best they might have is a run club that they can join 100 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:01,920 with where everybody's kind of doing their own thing. 101 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:03,880 Does it teach some lessons of teaming? 102 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:07,200 It depends. It depends when you throw a 103 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:09,600 group of people together ostensibly with the goal of 104 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:12,880 playing a sport on the same team, sometimes that creates A 105 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:16,240 cohesive unit, especially if there's a leader or a coach 106 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:20,920 either on the floor as a player, as a participant, or as a an 107 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:23,400 actual, more official coach who demands it. 108 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:26,800 But throwing people together to play sport has never been an 109 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:29,480 indicator that it will turn into this magic thing. 110 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:32,920 Sport is not magic, is not has no special qualities. 111 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:36,400 Football doesn't have a special quality that Zumba doesn't, 112 00:06:36,840 --> 00:06:38,560 right? It it just, and I know people, 113 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:40,920 they hate that, but it's true. Basketball doesn't have a 114 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:43,200 special quality that chess doesn't. 115 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:48,480 It is simply a substrate where it with the right people, with 116 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:51,840 the right mindset, with a coach who wants to create that 117 00:06:51,840 --> 00:06:55,600 atmosphere, whether that person be a player, a participant or an 118 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:58,480 actual official kind of older mentor kind of figure. 119 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:02,400 That's when it works. Otherwise, it's just a group of 120 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:03,880 people. Lord of the Flies. 121 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:07,600 Was there anything you think that you had to unlearn from 122 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:10,480 playing sport? Was there anything that because 123 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:15,000 you grew up playing basketball and you spent so much time in 124 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:19,280 those sports teams, was there anything that you, once you 125 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:21,880 stepped away from sport, you thought, I really have to 126 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:26,880 unlearn this thing? I mean, I started very late. 127 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:29,600 I started at 17. Most people who play basketball, 128 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:32,120 especially professional basketball, they start 5 or 6. 129 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:36,720 And so for me, it was just a massive learning curve. 130 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:41,680 Everything in terms of the unlearning, I haven't unlearned 131 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:44,080 a huge amount. I think the thing that I've had 132 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:47,280 to adjust my mindset around is the fact that most people 133 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:51,400 misunderstand. I work a lot in in businesses 134 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:54,480 and large organizations and the number of men who love to talk 135 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:58,360 about sport as an analogy and by doing so make it clear that 136 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:01,160 they've never played sport as any level that's important or 137 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:03,360 interesting. And I mean even community based, 138 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:05,720 right? Because they talk about it in 139 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:10,360 this way that misunderstands it. Most of your time spent in sport 140 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:13,640 is spent in preparation and recuperation, not in 141 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:15,560 performance. And that's the opposite of what 142 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:19,680 most examples in workplaces or even in education are about. 143 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:23,720 So I had to kind of understand how people mutate sport for 144 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:28,040 their own purposes to get people to run through walls of fire and 145 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:30,560 burn themselves out, where sport is not about that. 146 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:33,440 It's about sustainable performance over a year, which 147 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:36,880 requires a very different man mindset than treating a person 148 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:39,720 as if they're disposable. That's really interesting, isn't 149 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:40,919 it? And you think that, do you think 150 00:08:40,919 --> 00:08:45,080 that translates directly to work as well that actually we burn 151 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:47,840 ourselves out when we're working and we're constantly trying to 152 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:51,360 perform and actually we need to, I'm going off off tangent a 153 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:53,920 little bit here, but I found that really interesting and I am 154 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:58,040 definitely a proponent of this. I think we spend too long, we 155 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:01,920 work too hard, and actually if we took a step back and spent 156 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:04,800 more time resting and recuperating and finding joy, 157 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:06,880 that actually our work would be much better. 158 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:09,680 Yeah, well, I mean, it wouldn't just be much better, it would be 159 00:09:09,680 --> 00:09:12,080 much better for longer. I don't think work should have a 160 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:14,840 body count, right? I think with very few exceptions 161 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:18,120 of things in the military and perhaps things like fire 162 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:23,440 services, very few jobs should have killed you, whether it be 163 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:26,240 in a very real and physical way or whether it be in a kind of 164 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:28,600 debilitating mental and emotional way. 165 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:31,760 Just don't think it should in in sport. 166 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:34,480 And this is not universal and there are definitely flaws and 167 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:37,120 problems because sports, no panacea in the sport business 168 00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:41,040 world is no better broadly. But if you look at people as if 169 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:44,280 they're an investment, you you look at them over a long term, 170 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:47,360 you say you're going to be with me for three years. 171 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:49,800 How do I get the best out of you for three years? 172 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:52,840 How do I make you want to stay here for three years and not 173 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:56,200 leave for another team? But unfortunately, most 174 00:09:56,200 --> 00:10:00,680 workplaces look at people as if they're widgets that are easily 175 00:10:00,680 --> 00:10:02,560 replaceable. And when they break, it's kind 176 00:10:02,560 --> 00:10:06,080 of like, oh, hum, Elliot's dead, let's find another Elliot shaped 177 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:08,680 widget. And, and that's a very different 178 00:10:08,680 --> 00:10:12,800 approach to human beings, I think, and and a very horrible 179 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:15,120 one. I've definitely been a widget. 180 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:18,560 You mentioned that you started playing basketball at 17. 181 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:23,240 So up until you were 17, you're a a normal kid, a normal boy 182 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:26,000 doing normal things. And then you found out you're 183 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:29,360 really good at basketball and then you became an NBA player. 184 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:33,760 Like that's a massive change to go through in a quiet small 185 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:38,080 space of time. How did you adapt to to that 186 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:40,000 change and and when did you enter the NBA? 187 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:44,200 So from start, from picking up a basketball, it was six years 188 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:48,360 later where I played in the NBA. I'm still the only person in the 189 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:49,920 world of basketball to have done that. 190 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:56,040 It's again, I can't emphasize enough that the reason I hate to 191 00:10:56,040 --> 00:11:00,080 sweat to this day, I do not like I do not. 192 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:02,760 I've never had, you know, that thing that people talk about, 193 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:04,240 What's it called? Runners high. 194 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:07,200 You know, I've never experienced that. 195 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:09,760 In. My life, right? 196 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:13,160 So I don't like to exercise. I, I mean, I'm sore today 197 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:16,760 because I went back to my trainer who I only have and he 198 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:20,400 knows this because I am, I'm cheap and so if I'm paying 199 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:23,000 somebody to work out with me, I won't miss the workout, which is 200 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:26,320 the only reason that I go right. And I'm sore today and I resent 201 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:27,520 it. My neck hurts and it's really 202 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:29,200 stiff. I've got deep heat on my neck, 203 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:31,440 which is just ridiculous and not helping. 204 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:35,080 And so that is who I was a 16 year old. 205 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:39,520 I like Greg's steak slices and I like, I like reading books and 206 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:41,720 that's who I was then and it's who I am now. 207 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:44,560 If I could have a Greg's anything right now while I'm 208 00:11:44,560 --> 00:11:48,600 doing this, I would do that. So I got a credit card, by the 209 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:51,880 way, just because it gave me a a weekly Greg's. 210 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:55,880 My wife loves Greg's. She we actually looking at 211 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:58,720 investing in Greg's and buying Greg's shares like when we see a 212 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:02,240 new Greg's pop up and the new design with the the open window, 213 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:06,400 she's Yep there. For the podcast as well. 214 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:09,720 Greg, are you listening? He's a kind of inclusion at 215 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:10,640 Greg's. Give us a message. 216 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:11,960 Right. Let's get on to them. 217 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:13,440 This was the thing that drove me, though. 218 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:16,120 And I think this is another thing that people forget, right? 219 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:19,400 In workplaces, in organizations, in sports, in schools, the 220 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:22,280 motivator doesn't have to be the same as everybody else's. 221 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:25,600 It doesn't have to be related to some big audacious goal. 222 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:30,080 I met a group of people who made me feel like a human being, like 223 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:35,080 a full and proper person who I really felt cared about how I 224 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:38,800 was if I twisted my ankle. The pair was genuine and not 225 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:41,120 just about a disappointment in me not being able to perform, 226 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:43,440 but about my pain being meaningful. 227 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:47,760 And I just knew that I would do whatever it took to never leave 228 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:50,000 that environment in the school of motivation. 229 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:52,960 Most people think this is nerdy, but you can cut it out. 230 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:56,120 Most people think that there's kind of extrinsic motivation, 231 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:58,520 pay me enough and I'll do it. And then intrinsic motivation, 232 00:12:58,520 --> 00:12:59,880 you don't have to pay me and I'll do it. 233 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:02,400 And I've never found anybody who's that intrinsically 234 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:04,600 motivated in in our capitalistic world. 235 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:08,440 But there's actually things in the middle and one of them is 236 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:11,120 something called interjected regulation. 237 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:14,160 It's not important, but what it essentially means is sometimes 238 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:19,680 it's not you and a connection to the the outcome, whether it be 239 00:13:19,680 --> 00:13:23,040 finishing your homework, cleaning your room, whatever 240 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:25,720 else it might be behaving well in public. 241 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:30,560 It's actually a third thing. And that third thing for me was 242 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:35,640 not like the NBA and and glory and money for me, it was this 243 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:39,640 third thing here that kept me tethered to the work required to 244 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:41,960 deliver. It was this idea of these people 245 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:45,800 who cared about me, these people who made me feel like I was a 246 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:48,520 proper human being and not an alien in in the midst. 247 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:50,920 A scary one at that. I think people forget that 248 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:52,720 that's another form of motivation that we can take 249 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:55,080 advantage of if we build relationships. 250 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:58,400 That, I mean, that is just such a beautiful way of putting it. 251 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:01,280 And my, I want this was a question I wanted to ask you. 252 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:04,960 My, my partner coaches the local football team. 253 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:08,640 He actually hates football, but he does it because our youngest 254 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:10,520 really likes football. They needed a coach. 255 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:14,200 There's nobody to train them. So he took it on and he says 256 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:17,040 he's got more out of it than he thinks the kids have. 257 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:20,320 He's he loves coaching and the other men that he does it with, 258 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:22,560 they've bonded. They spend time together. 259 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:24,680 They go to the pub together to talk about the teams. 260 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:28,920 So it gives them access to, you know, a new social life as well 261 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:32,640 as he says some of the kids that he coaches, he knows he's having 262 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:35,920 a positive influence on them and that some of them have had 263 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:39,120 really hard times recently. And he knows that them coming to 264 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:43,000 football is grounding for them and he loves giving back in that 265 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:44,680 way. And you've spoken a lot about 266 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:48,400 the positive influence that the coaches in Stockport, I used to 267 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:53,360 live in Stockport, Stockport had on you when you were growing up. 268 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:55,240 What do you what would you say too? 269 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:57,880 Because I feel it's really important to encourage other 270 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:01,120 people to get involved in community activities, to 271 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:05,080 community sport, not just for the kids, but for them. 272 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:10,720 Is there anything that you would say to other men who might be 273 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:14,320 interested in coaching team? So I'd say that I love the 274 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:17,080 perspective that your partner's got right, the idea that a 275 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:21,160 demonstration that sport legitimizes and indemnifies men 276 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:24,080 for intimacy, which I think is really important. 277 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:31,280 But I would also say this, don't experiment with young people. 278 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:35,480 So if you're interested in being a coach in a developmental 279 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:40,120 setting, it is more important, not less important that you have 280 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:44,800 the interpersonal skills, the conflict de escalation skills 281 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:49,080 around the technical skills. It is just far more important 282 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:53,640 because as you've just pointed out, Julie, you can very be 283 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:58,200 quickly become important to a young person who will then 284 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:02,160 escalate the number of things that they'll bring to you to a 285 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:05,120 point where being well meaning won't cut it. 286 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:08,640 And, and well meaning isn't a protective factor for young 287 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:12,320 people, especially those who are in distress or who have 288 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:15,360 difficult lives. Expertise is a protective 289 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:16,920 factor. And this is not me saying that 290 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:19,080 everybody who coaches in communities needs to be a 291 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:22,760 counselor or a therapist. It's simply that you should be 292 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:26,280 at least the kind of person who's going online looking at 293 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:28,120 video resources that are available. 294 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:32,880 BPS website, ABP website is a psychological British 295 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:35,560 psychological Society and the association business 296 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:38,080 psychologist even. And there's lots of other 297 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:40,120 counseling websites out there where you can just look at very 298 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:43,200 simple resources that will help you do with the common things 299 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:46,600 that will occur when you are around young people who begin to 300 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:49,000 trust you. And that's that's why I'd say 301 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:50,960 there's lots of brilliant things that will come from it. 302 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:54,280 This idea of creating, you know, a real connection with other 303 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:58,120 coaches and feeling a sense of worth because you're really 304 00:16:58,120 --> 00:16:59,840 delivering value for young people. 305 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:03,120 But just remember, being a brilliant tactician is is 306 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:05,319 irrelevant in most of these environments. 307 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:07,480 I don't remember when I saw it, but it's a while ago. 308 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:10,680 There was a piece of research that said what kids, the kids, 309 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:14,000 the teams that performed best. It wasn't about the technical 310 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:18,000 skill in football, basketball, whatever else of the coach. 311 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:21,520 It was about the interpersonal skill of that coach that led to 312 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:24,280 the team developing the dynamic where they could be successful. 313 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:30,600 Yeah, yeah, I I can see that that would make a big 314 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:31,560 difference. And you do. 315 00:17:32,120 --> 00:17:36,160 I can see for my partner Tom, that when there's some of the 316 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:40,000 kids that have had really difficult, challenging few years 317 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:45,280 or lives, he feels this massive sense of responsibility. 318 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:49,520 And I know that you could very easily be a negative force as 319 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:52,760 well as a positive force because you are in a powerful position 320 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:56,480 as a coach, aren't you? And that I'd love to talk to you 321 00:17:56,480 --> 00:18:01,600 a bit about identity, which you you've talked a lot about very, 322 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:07,040 very powerfully. What do you think it means to be 323 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:09,000 a man today? That's a really big question. 324 00:18:09,120 --> 00:18:12,160 And do you think it has changed since you were younger? 325 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:17,080 So I pause because it is complex, but complex doesn't 326 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:20,560 mean that it's difficult. I pause because the way we're 327 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:24,760 talking about masculinity now is very akin to the way politics is 328 00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:27,640 talking about. If we're in a, a regressive era 329 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:32,200 of way back when politics, the idea of there was a point in the 330 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:34,960 past where everything was brilliant, where the sun shone 331 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:39,040 more often, where everybody's pockets were full of cash, where 332 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:42,240 everyone could afford a house, where everyone was doing well. 333 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:47,000 And that is the Nexus of Make America great again, Make 334 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:49,320 Britain Great again. It's the Nexus of that. 335 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:52,800 And what we're having is the same thing with masculinity, an 336 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:55,520 idea that people are throwing back to a mythical time that 337 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:59,280 never really existed without facing the facts that in that 338 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:01,880 time, men died in their 40s of black lung. 339 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:04,880 They were absent from their families because of the number 340 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:09,120 of hours that they worked where the, you know, where the the 341 00:19:09,120 --> 00:19:12,160 maternal mortality rate was ridiculously high, where all of 342 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:14,960 these terrible things were happening and men didn't have 343 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:18,200 it. Great men had no emotional lives 344 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:21,320 of their own and we're we're harping back to it as if it's 345 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:25,280 something quite different. So masculine to me is better 346 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:29,240 described by saying I'm not arguing against the idea of 347 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:33,480 strength and independence, but I am arguing that strength doesn't 348 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:37,680 equate to cruelty. I'm a six foot nine, 160 349 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:41,440 kilogram black man. There were very few rooms I go 350 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:45,320 into where if I wanted to turn every table over and throw 351 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:48,480 people asunder, I couldn't. There are very few rooms where 352 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:51,840 if I wanted to misbehave, there is nobody in that room that 353 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:55,520 could stop me. But to me, strength doesn't 354 00:19:55,520 --> 00:20:00,040 equate to cruelty or dominance and it shouldn't justify 355 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:02,920 entitlement. And I don't understand why men 356 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:04,160 can't get their head around that. 357 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:07,880 Be strong, but that doesn't mean entitled, it doesn't mean 358 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:09,560 dominant and it doesn't mean cruel. 359 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:13,320 That's all independence. I'm big on independence. 360 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:15,960 I live alone, have a partner, don't live with them. 361 00:20:16,120 --> 00:20:19,920 Like it this way. Independence doesn't mean 362 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:22,120 isolation. And that's another thing I can't 363 00:20:22,120 --> 00:20:25,360 really understand what happened when we started to suggest that 364 00:20:25,360 --> 00:20:28,360 independence meant not just isolation, but a sense of 365 00:20:28,360 --> 00:20:30,960 emotional independence, which is stoicism. 366 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:37,240 But stoicism that justifies violence when masculinity feels 367 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:41,040 challenged, feels weak to me, more than strong. 368 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:46,720 So I suppose masculinity to me is like everything else born, 369 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:52,080 demanded to evolve. And if it doesn't evolve, it's 370 00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:54,560 not going to be fit for purpose. And it isn't fit for purpose. 371 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:58,280 Now, I know people have real qualms with this idea of toxic 372 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:01,120 masculinity, and I'm always interested with that. 373 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:09,320 But if I told you that a chemical in your water was was 374 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:12,320 killing people at an unprecedented rate, people were 375 00:21:12,360 --> 00:21:16,800 harming themselves or others at an unprecedented rate, if I told 376 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:21,000 you it was leading to heart attacks and family breakdown, if 377 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:23,880 I told you all of these things about this chemical, would you 378 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:26,200 describe it as anything other than toxic? 379 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:29,920 And that's what's happening with the way that masculinity is 380 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:32,840 currently being performed. And it is being mostly performed 381 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:36,400 because, and I don't know if it's just a function of 382 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:38,480 insecurity, but that's a big part of it. 383 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:45,840 John, how have you found? So you said you're at 6 foot 9, 384 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:47,640 it's very tall and you're you're a black man. 385 00:21:48,360 --> 00:21:50,760 How have you found, I guess within this conversation of 386 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:53,840 masculinity and how you're received by people? 387 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:55,960 Obviously there's some people who know who you are. 388 00:21:56,040 --> 00:22:00,720 And so that comes with a different perception and maybe 389 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:03,920 they will treat you in a different way in comparison to 390 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:05,320 when they don't know who you are. 391 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:08,880 So have you found it's different when you walk into a room and 392 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:11,360 people have no idea who you are? Do you, do you, do you feel a 393 00:22:11,360 --> 00:22:15,320 different sense of they are threatened by you, your 394 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:18,600 identity, your masculinity? Versus when Jon Amici comes in 395 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:20,880 the room and he's here to do a talk for us because we are 396 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:23,480 paying him to come and talk to our leaders. 397 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:25,720 I'd be fascinated to hear what your thoughts are. 398 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:29,120 Yeah. I mean, that is a very different 399 00:22:29,120 --> 00:22:31,720 experience for me. I don't leave my house very much 400 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:37,640 unless I have to because the experience apart from that, but 401 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:40,480 the experience of being in public with other people is 402 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:46,160 painful. It's really painful because you, 403 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:50,560 although it, this will feel fragile to lots of people, we 404 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:54,120 are impacted by how we see other people see us. 405 00:22:54,120 --> 00:22:58,240 And I know when I leave my house that I'm a monster. 406 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:02,240 And I know this because of how other people react to me. 407 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:04,040 And they react to me like I'm a monster. 408 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:07,800 When I walk into a lift and they are going to walk into a lift 409 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:10,200 with me, they might take the next lift. 410 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:13,280 And I can't explain that unless I'm a monster. 411 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:17,600 When I walk into a space with people and they take their 412 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:21,000 belongings, their valuables and hold them closer to themselves, 413 00:23:21,360 --> 00:23:25,360 I can't explain that unless they see a monster when I round the 414 00:23:25,360 --> 00:23:27,040 corner. This happened to me when I lived 415 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:31,360 in my old house last year. I rounded a corner and a couple 416 00:23:31,360 --> 00:23:37,240 were walking towards me with coffees and they they dropped 417 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:41,400 their coffees and the, the the man actually of the two shrieked 418 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:44,840 as I rounded the corner like a meter or two away from them. 419 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:46,240 So it wasn't like I walked into them. 420 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:50,240 And the only way I can explain this, and I've known this since 421 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:54,080 I was 13, right? I know that I'm a monster and so 422 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:58,160 I avoid interactions if I can because it's harmful to my 423 00:23:58,360 --> 00:24:01,640 emotional well-being and I curate them otherwise. 424 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:05,680 So everything you're looking at right now is curated for the 425 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:10,800 benefit of mostly white people, but everybody to see me in a way 426 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:14,800 that is useful for me and less harmful the the blue around my 427 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,560 head here. This is 40 hours work here. 428 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:21,000 It's light around my head and dark around the edges. 429 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,720 Makes me look lighter, which makes me feel safer to people. 430 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:28,280 I am massive, but you couldn't tell until I said so because 431 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:32,160 there's so much space around me. That helps you to see me in 432 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:35,600 context. Books, Old school science 433 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:38,200 fiction, which I'm really into, right? 434 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,080 I bought that lightsaber. I bought these things because 435 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:44,720 I'm really into them, but they make people feel safe because 436 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:47,160 oh, yeah, I remember Star Wars, the TARDIS. 437 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:51,520 I, I remember Doctor Who and awards Pop came over here. 438 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,440 So other people have recognized that I'm good at something. 439 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:56,120 They don't know what it is, but something. 440 00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:00,720 And all of this is for the audience to see me in a way that 441 00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:04,880 is least corrosive for me and most helpful for our 442 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:07,800 interactions. And so, yeah, it's a very 443 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:12,680 different experience if I shift things up and if I just wore 444 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:17,040 what I wanted to wear and which I don't in public at least. 445 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:19,720 Thank you for saying that as you were talking. 446 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:23,680 I feel that deeply and I think a lot of people listening will 447 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:25,760 understand that. You've spoken about how that 448 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:29,560 changed the way you navigate, but in professional settings, 449 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:31,520 are you able to use that as a power? 450 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:35,240 I have found that we've, we've, what you've spoken about, you 451 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,440 can either shrink in that or you can use that as a strength. 452 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:42,040 And I choose to for the most part use that as a strength. 453 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:47,920 I would love to hear how you use your identity, your body, your 454 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:51,840 height, etcetera as something that helps in your professional 455 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:53,880 life. Really judiciously, right. 456 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:57,840 I spend a lot of time on stages far away from people, which is 457 00:25:57,840 --> 00:25:59,640 helpful. I do this thing actually with 458 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:03,440 groups when it's not a stage but just a larger room where I will 459 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:05,440 talk to them about whatever we're talking about. 460 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:09,480 And then I will, I will demonstrate what it is to be 461 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,280 conscientious about your identity by simply walking 462 00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:15,360 closer than I've been. And I don't change my facial 463 00:26:15,360 --> 00:26:17,840 expression, but I just walk closer to them. 464 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:21,320 I walk and you can see and everybody in the room can feel 465 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,240 the tension that people feel even though they know. 466 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:28,000 This is Professor John Amachi. He's a psychologist, he's a, an 467 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:31,120 educator. Even with all of that, all the 468 00:26:31,120 --> 00:26:35,200 ideas they have about blackness and size and that combination, 469 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:39,000 it makes people feel frightened. So it's not useful for me. 470 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,120 I'm a psychologist. I work with people in the most 471 00:26:41,120 --> 00:26:44,360 vulnerable moments for the most part, usually when things aren't 472 00:26:44,360 --> 00:26:46,800 going well or aren't as well as they'd like them to be. 473 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:49,120 So being frightening is not useful. 474 00:26:49,120 --> 00:26:51,880 So I have to do everything possible to not be frightening. 475 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:55,880 The truth is that I'm a nerd. That is the most core identity 476 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:57,600 of me, right? I'm a nerd. 477 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:02,360 I love Greg's, I love Star Wars, to a lesser extent, Star Trek, 478 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:04,560 though if there was a universe I was going to live in and it 479 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:06,880 would certainly be the Star Trek 1, not the Star Wars one. 480 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:11,800 I love Doctor Who's, even the woke ones from nowadays. 481 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:15,360 And so these are real things about me and a more informative 482 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,560 if people want to get to know me, which is another reason why 483 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,360 this is here, to create connections of stuff that's 484 00:27:21,360 --> 00:27:24,360 meaningful to me as opposed to stuff that's not really. 485 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,560 But yeah, I can't use it in the way that some people do because 486 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:29,640 intimidating people is rarely useful. 487 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:32,280 The most bold thing that I'll do with anybody coach. 488 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:34,760 About 20% of the people I coach don't want to be coached and 489 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:36,360 they don't want to be coached by me. 490 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,880 But they have no choice. They have behaved poorly and now 491 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:43,000 they are being mandated coaching in order to keep their job. 492 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,440 And these people can sometimes be uncivil. 493 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:51,200 And the most strong that I am is to have them say something to 494 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:52,640 me. Like when we start our 495 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:56,040 conversation, it's and I'll say something like it's clear that 496 00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:59,080 you're a bit hot right now, so I'm going to go and make some 497 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:02,360 tea and I'll turn my camera off and my audio off and I'll be 498 00:28:02,360 --> 00:28:04,640 back in 5 minutes. And that's as strong as it gets. 499 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:06,840 I set a boundary. I walk away, actually don't need 500 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,840 to go away and make tea because I've got my thermos flask right 501 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:11,360 there. That's it. 502 00:28:11,360 --> 00:28:13,800 So it's not like I can just say shut up you, what the hell are 503 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:15,560 you doing? Because everybody loses. 504 00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:17,920 It's one of the failures of masculinity, actually, to bring 505 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:20,720 it back to that this idea that people don't realize that 506 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:24,040 intimidation and violence, whether it's actual physical 507 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:28,320 violence or discursive violence, leads to a mutual failure almost 508 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:30,200 inevitably. Yeah, you talk about this 509 00:28:30,360 --> 00:28:34,760 powerfully in your new book, how you remain calm under pressure 510 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:37,480 and under stress. I just before we move on to 511 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:42,240 that, I really would love to know firstly, how you process 512 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:44,480 that. You described yourself as people 513 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:48,200 seeing you as a monster. That's a big thing to process 514 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:52,160 emotionally, but also what you would say to other big black 515 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:57,040 men, particularly boys in secondary school who may feel 516 00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:59,960 the same, what you would what, what message you'd want to give 517 00:28:59,960 --> 00:29:01,760 to them. It's exhausting, it's 518 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,760 frustrating and it off. There were points in my life 519 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:07,120 where I just wanted to RIP people asunder. 520 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:10,720 I wanted to become the thing that everybody thought I was. 521 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:14,320 There's this brilliant it almost won an an Oscar. 522 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:16,840 I think it is called Nimona. I don't know if you've seen it. 523 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,640 It's a cartoon. I highly recommend it. 524 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:23,480 It's a, it's about a young girl who is a monster in a, this 525 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:26,440 mythical environment where everybody's very afraid of 526 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:28,040 monsters. And she gets to the point where 527 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,480 she wants to destroy everything. And then she looks around her at 528 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,760 what she's wrought and then tries to, to kill herself. 529 00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:38,240 And I think that is the trap that many young black men who 530 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:42,000 are perceived as big and strong and violent and criminal and 531 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,320 whatever else comes with the, the stereotypes they want to 532 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:48,120 eventually the frustration builds the point where they want 533 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:52,040 to, to act out. And then at some point, they see 534 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:56,040 what that they've become and what and that they've validated 535 00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:58,560 what these people think of them. And they then want to harm 536 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,640 themselves. And all I would say is there is 537 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:03,800 a core of you that you must hold on to. 538 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:09,360 There is a picture of you that is not corrupted by the 539 00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:12,960 ignorance and malice of strangers. 540 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:18,280 There is a picture of you, an image in a mirror of someone's 541 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:20,760 eye that can show you who you are. 542 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:25,080 And you have to hold on to that every single day. 543 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:28,240 You have to hold on to it. For me, it was my mom. 544 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:33,520 And I used to, I used to look at her every once in a while. 545 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:36,200 We'd all read books together because we're nerds as a family. 546 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:40,120 And I would be reading a book and my mom would be reading a 547 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:42,360 book and we'd and I'd be looking up and I'd be reading my book. 548 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:44,600 And then every once in a while I'd look up and my mom would be 549 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:47,600 looking at me. And when she looked at me, I 550 00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:52,920 knew who I was. I could see it in her face that 551 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:59,360 I I'm her big clever boy. And so in the midst of these 552 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:02,520 looks from strangers, in the midst of these fear that 553 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:07,160 radiates off people, when I walk by in my mind, I just remember 554 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:11,120 my mom's long since gone, but I just remember that I am a big 555 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:13,400 clever boy. Hold on to that. 556 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:17,440 That's amazing. So our youngest is 2 1/2 and 557 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:22,000 she's massive for her age. She's wearing 5 to 6 clothes 558 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:25,000 like wearing Primark shopping in the primary school. 559 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:26,400 It's the. Thing they don't tell you right 560 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:29,000 about big, about big kids, they don't tell you it's just very 561 00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,760 expensive. It's very expensive and she's 562 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:35,320 growing very quickly and she's for a 2 1/2 year old. 563 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:37,400 She's so nimble and fart on her feet. 564 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:42,480 And so we take her to playgroups for her age and you can see that 565 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:44,760 other parents are very worried and because they're thinking, 566 00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,160 wait a minute, this kid is this kids four or five years old. 567 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:49,840 Why are they here? And they're black and she's got 568 00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:54,160 big hair punches and, and I'm just very aware of that, that 569 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:58,000 she's going to be a big black girl in this in the big black 570 00:31:58,000 --> 00:31:59,720 woman in this world. And that's going to come with, 571 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:01,720 you know, ups and downs and whatnot. 572 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:03,680 And so I think what you've shared here is really just 573 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:07,960 helped me to understand that we need to teach her that whatever 574 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:12,160 comes in her life, she is our and we love her. 575 00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:13,760 And so that's, that's incredible. 576 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:18,240 Yeah, that was so powerful. I was really, really touched by 577 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:22,120 the video response you did to the TV series Adolescence. 578 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:28,120 And you said, and I'm going to quote you, the hand wringing 579 00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:32,640 around the plight of working class implicitly white men seems 580 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:36,320 to have more compassionate energy than the conversations 581 00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:40,560 about the apparent behaviour from young men from other ethnic 582 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:44,680 and minority communities. I'd love you to expand a bit on 583 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:47,920 that. Yeah, I found, I found that 584 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:51,960 program problematic. Not not from an artistic point 585 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:52,760 of view. I get it. 586 00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:58,080 I can see how it's great art, but you just couldn't replace 587 00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:00,880 that protagonist with any other ethnicity. 588 00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:06,160 You couldn't replace them with what might be considered an 589 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:09,800 oikh, right? Even if it was a white really 590 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:13,320 working class or or or struggling family, you couldn't 591 00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:17,760 replace that dynamic and have people feel the same empathy 592 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:21,640 towards the protagonist. I couldn't explain. 593 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:25,920 I couldn't, couldn't rationalize even with the dynamic that was 594 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:31,680 at play, how we could go through a program and, and who the 595 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:36,400 victim was would feel uncertain as we went through that. 596 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:39,600 There was a victim and the victim was a girl and her 597 00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:43,080 family. Full stop, full stop. 598 00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:46,000 That was it. You, you were called, I don't 599 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:48,800 know what it was, but you were called the name and you murdered 600 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:51,160 someone. There's a victim here and it's 601 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:54,480 1. And it to me, it was such a such 602 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:59,960 an interesting take on the crisis about masculinity, which 603 00:33:59,960 --> 00:34:03,320 is a crisis of men's making. And this is not me being cruel. 604 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:08,199 I am empathetic about this. But you can't create change if 605 00:34:08,199 --> 00:34:09,760 we don't talk about the status quo. 606 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,480 What is actually happening And what is actually happening is 607 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:16,320 men are deciding that there are rules that they are willing to 608 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:19,960 follow despite the fact that they are caustic and harmful to 609 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:22,000 them. And we've decided that. 610 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,719 And not on masks, Not just on masks, but individuals are 611 00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:28,480 deciding in their various communities, and that is leading 612 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:31,040 to behavior that is harmful to others. 613 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:34,080 And yet when we witnessed that behavior, especially with this 614 00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:38,719 adolescent show, we're supposed to feel sorry implicitly with 615 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:45,199 that program for the boy. And I don't feel sorry for the 616 00:34:45,199 --> 00:34:48,719 murderer. I feel sad that we're in a 617 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:52,440 situation where so many young people can make so many bad 618 00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:56,880 choices, so many parents be under equipped to challenge that 619 00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:00,240 at an early stage. Because by the time your son is 620 00:35:00,240 --> 00:35:04,040 already following Andrew Tate and Jordan Peterson and all of 621 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:07,760 these other ridiculous caricatures of even men in any 622 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:11,200 modern sense and any real sense, by the time they're already 623 00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:13,720 embedded in that, you haven't even been too late. 624 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:16,880 I'm not saying they're a lost cause, but there's an earlier 625 00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:21,880 stage where you start watching boys mock girls for things that 626 00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,520 they can or can't do, and you intervene there. 627 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,840 There's a stage where they start bulking because one of their 628 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,560 friends families has said that doing the dishes is woman's 629 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:34,960 work, and you intervene there. There's a stage where people 630 00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:38,760 decide that boys can look lasciviously at girls and women, 631 00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:40,800 and that's OK. And you intervene there. 632 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:44,000 And that's where you teach people what's appropriate. 633 00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:46,840 There's this massive differential in in in the 634 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:52,040 perceptions of men and women about what beautiful is in terms 635 00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:54,880 of relationship building, and you intervene there. 636 00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:59,280 Was always interesting to me as a gay man is the idea that most 637 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:02,040 straight men don't seem to realize that the thing that 638 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:05,640 they're trying to develop to be attractive is for other straight 639 00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:08,440 men. It's it's not for women. 640 00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:11,200 The thing that they're doing to be attractive. 641 00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:15,280 The the cash being thrown around the bottles with the sparklers 642 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:19,120 in them the cars with the very loud engines that those 643 00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:23,080 ridiculous gym T-shirts they've got all the all but like a a 644 00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:26,760 small fraction of cloth your nipples are fully explode. 645 00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:30,160 This is not I I don't have a huge amount of experience with 646 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:32,800 women, but I know that that's not for women. 647 00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,760 I know that. And so this is how we intervene 648 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:39,640 right by helping people see the ridiculousness of this 649 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:43,400 performative masculinity and start early with that. 650 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:46,400 So that's why the program really bothered me because it felt like 651 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:50,000 whilst he was trying to get this message about, look how harmful 652 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:55,640 this form of masculinity is, it still looped back to it's not 653 00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:58,000 really their fault. It's, you know, and then you 654 00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:00,160 hear people talk about even people I really respect. 655 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:04,480 I did a response to Prof G, he's a gallop, Scott Galloway. 656 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:09,320 And and I, I did a response to him because even some things he 657 00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:12,880 talked about, it's not the fact that men have to swipe. 658 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:17,120 I haven't been on a nap for a while, but right 100 times to 659 00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:19,800 get one response from a woman is not a woman's fault. 660 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:23,080 And even that's a weird framing of it. 661 00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:27,800 If you are the kind of person whose profile scares women away, 662 00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:30,400 that is the fault of you, not the fault of women. 663 00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:33,720 And what we do know from tons of research looking at 664 00:37:33,720 --> 00:37:37,600 attractiveness for women, it won't be because you've got a 665 00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:39,640 mole on your face. It won't be because you've got a 666 00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:43,000 couple of extra pounds on you. It will because of something you 667 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:48,360 say or an image you have in your background that frightens women 668 00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:51,640 and do something about that rather than say, well, you know 669 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:54,360 what's problem, Jolie? Women nowadays are just too 670 00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:55,960 picky. Yeah, exactly. 671 00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:58,280 Yeah, Yeah, exactly. Yeah. 672 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:06,400 The the whole 2080 theory that 80% of women go for the top 20% 673 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:10,520 of men in terms of wealth and in terms of status and in terms of 674 00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:14,720 attractiveness has been disproved so many times. 675 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:20,600 Are you are you empathetic with the notion that the reason why 676 00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:25,480 boys are so attracted to these very toxic masculinity 677 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:30,680 influences is because they don't understand what masculinity is 678 00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:34,160 anymore? The idea that we haven't got a 679 00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:37,240 role for men anymore because women have moved more into the 680 00:38:37,240 --> 00:38:40,000 workplace, because so many more women are breadwinners, because 681 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:44,400 so many, because we, we have tried to create this equal 682 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,880 playing field across the board. Men have lost the sense of what 683 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,480 who they are and what their role is in the world. 684 00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:53,120 And so they're attracted to people who are telling them, 685 00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:55,560 hey, you can be rich. Hey, you can have loads of hot 686 00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:57,960 women hanging off you. You can have a yacht, you can. 687 00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:05,600 All you need to do is, is do follow my course and go to the 688 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:08,640 gym 24 times a day. And so do. 689 00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:11,280 Are you empathetic with this notion that men don't understand 690 00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:12,840 what the world wants for the men anymore? 691 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:15,680 No, it's bollocks. It's that's the technical term. 692 00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:19,280 It's just, it's utter, utter bollocks, right? 693 00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:23,120 It's not real and it's not true. Women tell men all the time 694 00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:24,560 because we are talking about straight men. 695 00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:26,360 And this is one of the things I just want to start with. 696 00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:30,040 There are plenty of toxic gay men too, but this particular 697 00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:33,840 brand of this, this is a straight male problem, right? 698 00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:37,800 Can I just say as well, the data shows it's a middle class 699 00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:40,960 problem as well. Very much so, very much so, yes, 700 00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:43,760 that's also true. And and there's a real classism 701 00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:48,680 to the to the alpha male type of narrative because wealth is 702 00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:52,160 intrinsically alpha and anything else is intrinsically beta, 703 00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:55,080 right. So there's an idea of your 704 00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:58,880 personal failing if you haven't somehow managed to own tube, you 705 00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:01,000 get Bugattis or something. I don't have a car. 706 00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:04,720 I haven't had one for 30 years. Hasn't impacted my testosterone 707 00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:08,360 even and not my age probably has, but not my lack of a 708 00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:10,480 Bugatti. No, the the the reason. 709 00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:13,240 So I'm not empathetic about this because it's not true. 710 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:16,040 It's not real that people don't know what's expected them. 711 00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:18,200 They may not like what's expected them, but that's 712 00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:21,080 different. But the reason that this alpha 713 00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:24,960 male nonsense is so attractive to me, to my mind anyway, is 714 00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:28,160 because. It offers the same bomb, 715 00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:34,280 soothing bomb that Reform offers, the same soothing bomb 716 00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:38,320 that Trump offers in America, the same soothing bomb that all 717 00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:43,560 of these carnival hucksters offer, which is the fundamental 718 00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:47,840 reassuring blanket of Elliot. It's not your fault. 719 00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:50,240 That's it. That's why it's attractive, 720 00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,560 whatever the other formula that comes with your £100 a week 721 00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:57,560 subscription to their special plan, whatever else is in there, 722 00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:01,360 the fundamental truth of it is what's wrong with those women 723 00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:03,720 over there? What's wrong with those other 724 00:41:03,720 --> 00:41:07,520 men who aren't alphas over there and how it's their fault. 725 00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:10,400 Just like it's poor people in boats. 726 00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:11,920 That's why you can't afford a house. 727 00:41:12,240 --> 00:41:15,720 Not the people who've bought up half of Mayfair but don't live 728 00:41:15,720 --> 00:41:18,480 there. Right it it's that idea of a 729 00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:20,920 simple narrative. I don't know. 730 00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:22,680 I don't. I wrote this in a paper years 731 00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:26,400 and years ago. But the idea of one should never 732 00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:30,680 underestimate the horrors that seemingly moderate human beings 733 00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:35,000 will commit when convinced. It leads to the idea that it's 734 00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:37,680 not their fault. They will do. 735 00:41:37,720 --> 00:41:41,560 People will do awful things. If you look at the people, all 736 00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:45,600 Port is a psychologist who studied the Holocaust and how it 737 00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:47,600 escalated. He has a scale called the 738 00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:50,600 antilocution scale. It shows how you can escalate 739 00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:54,400 from antilocution, saying bad words about a group of people to 740 00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:56,920 murdering them. And when you look at how men 741 00:41:56,920 --> 00:42:00,040 treat women and the escalation of violence and the hundreds of 742 00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:02,920 thousands of people, what is over 1,000,000 violent crimes 743 00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:06,360 against women are reported every year, 100 women killed annually. 744 00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:12,680 That is a that stems from being able to say girls are this women 745 00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:16,080 are bad trash. Those other words that we use 746 00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:18,760 around women. There's a there's a, there's a 747 00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:23,640 logical pathway that elevates to dehumanizing anybody calling 748 00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:27,440 people in boats cockroaches to the point where you can burn 749 00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:31,160 them in their rooms. So this pathway is well trodden. 750 00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:33,600 We understand it well. This isn't about not knowing 751 00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:36,280 masculinity is. This is about not liking the 752 00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:41,960 work of real masculinity and instead buying into the fault of 753 00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:44,360 the innocent. I don't want to be really basic 754 00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:47,280 here and say what do we do about it, but I'm going to. 755 00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:50,600 I know you. To me, you and Elliot are like 756 00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:53,600 positive influence, masculinity influences. 757 00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:57,640 You talk positively about what it means to be a man. 758 00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:01,640 You don't lead with division and anger. 759 00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:08,440 You lead with togetherness and hope and lessons of positive 760 00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:11,800 strength. How do we what why do you think 761 00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:15,280 it is, though, that the vast majority of boys and the the 762 00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:20,440 data is showing this are listening more to not Andrew 763 00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:21,800 Tate anymore. Actually, it seems they're 764 00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:24,440 moving away from Andrew Tate. They've realized that he's just 765 00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:31,000 a horrible pig, but they are listening to the influences that 766 00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:35,360 are that are leading with these messages of of division and 767 00:43:35,360 --> 00:43:37,960 anger. What do we is there anything you 768 00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:42,920 feel we're missing? What can we do to besides in our 769 00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:47,240 parenting and in schools reminding boys of healthy 770 00:43:47,240 --> 00:43:50,800 masculinity? How do we get them to listen to 771 00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:53,920 them to positive influences more like you and Elliot? 772 00:43:54,680 --> 00:43:57,720 I mean, I don't know that the answer is going to be listening 773 00:43:57,720 --> 00:44:00,840 to Elliot or me in particular. I do. 774 00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:05,480 I want my boys to listen to you. It is. 775 00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:07,920 I'm happy for that, right? If it were to happen, I'd be 776 00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:09,240 happy for it. I'd welcome it. 777 00:44:09,240 --> 00:44:12,320 But the reality is that we, we have to. 778 00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:19,400 There's a delusion in place that allows boys and men to in what 779 00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:22,000 they think is in good conscience, but it's actually 780 00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:26,320 some kind of cognitive dissonance endorse these types 781 00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:28,680 of horrible people, right? They haven't moved away from 782 00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:30,080 Undertake because they think he's a pig. 783 00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:34,280 They've moved away from Undertake because he's wearing, 784 00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:37,600 if we were to use another analogy, he's actually wearing 785 00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:40,880 the Nazi flag and they need to move to somebody who isn't 786 00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:43,240 wearing it but is saying all the right words, right. 787 00:44:43,240 --> 00:44:46,360 So he's just too obvious is why they've moved away from him. 788 00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:47,960 But it's not because they don't agree with them. 789 00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:51,440 It's just he's too obvious. And you align with him and you 790 00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:53,360 can instantly find yourself on the outs. 791 00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:57,360 You align with somebody else who's a little more subtle and 792 00:44:57,360 --> 00:45:00,640 you can still find yourself perhaps not publicly pilloried. 793 00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:03,520 So we have to delete. Do we have to defeat this 794 00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:05,840 delusion, right? There's nothing to reclaim with 795 00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:07,840 masculinity. We should remove this language. 796 00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:11,760 There's nothing to reclaim. Masculinity is personal and 797 00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:14,760 flexible. If we help young boys to realize 798 00:45:14,760 --> 00:45:20,120 masculinity is personal, personalized, and flexible, and 799 00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:26,840 calls to reclaim masculinity are these mask attempts to to 800 00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:28,800 reverse hard earned rights for women. 801 00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:33,320 That's fundamentally it, right? And it's it, it masks these, 802 00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:37,680 these the resentment for the rights that women have earned 803 00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:40,360 and hardened and not completely earned. 804 00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:43,080 And then a, a reorientation around strength too. 805 00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:47,720 The the idea that real strength means allowing people choices 806 00:45:47,720 --> 00:45:52,840 and rights and you can't with strength ease your own pain by 807 00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:55,840 stripping other people of their rights or dignity. 808 00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:59,200 These types of things. And then helping men to find 809 00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:03,280 ways to genuinely connect with other men in really intimate 810 00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:05,240 ways. Because toxic masculinity to me 811 00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:11,120 stems from men's choices to be absent of genuine intimacy and 812 00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:15,560 instead embrace fear and hatred that is usually towards women 813 00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:17,560 and other men. It's one of the things that's 814 00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:21,920 confusing as a gay man, why I look at so many men who seem to 815 00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:27,400 hate women whilst desiring them. They covet this thing that they 816 00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:31,600 hate and that's bound to cause really negative emotional 817 00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:35,200 stains, right. So maybe it's back to the 818 00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:39,720 beginning and saying at an early age, when your boy starts 819 00:46:39,720 --> 00:46:43,680 talking about how much they love their friend, endorse that 820 00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:46,160 without fear. When, when they start talking 821 00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:50,520 about interest, whether they be deep in the library, in books or 822 00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:54,680 writing poetry or playing a sport that's not a somehow 823 00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:58,680 appropriate for boys, I don't know, endorse these things. 824 00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:01,880 Recognizing that masculinity in its ultimate form, in a 825 00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:06,480 contemporary sense, is personalized and flexible and 826 00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:09,960 will evolve over time. Because that's how we're all 827 00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:12,320 still here, right? As human beings, we're all still 828 00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:15,560 here because we're not still wearing loincloths pretending 829 00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:17,200 that they're still Saber toothed tigers. 830 00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:19,200 How do you see this showing up in the workplace? 831 00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:21,960 And they do a lot of consultancy and work with corporations. 832 00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:27,080 Do you see what we've spoken about here in terms of this kind 833 00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:33,520 of masculine idea and energy showing up through leaders in 834 00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:35,440 the workplace? And how does that show up? 835 00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:38,560 Oh, for sure. Leadership is still 836 00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:42,720 intrinsically entwined with masculinity. 837 00:47:42,720 --> 00:47:44,400 Is is remarkable. Really. 838 00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:48,440 There's lots of people who think that strength in terms of 839 00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:53,280 overbearingness of intimidation, our leadership qualities and 840 00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:54,640 traits. There's lots of people who think 841 00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:57,720 independence of thought. And I think independence of 842 00:47:57,720 --> 00:48:00,120 thoughts can be important, right, in critical thinking, but 843 00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:03,600 they mean by independence of thought and imperviousness to 844 00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:06,120 the, to the evidence or opinions of others. 845 00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:08,200 And, and they think this is leadership. 846 00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:11,040 And they also think it's, this stems from a masculine 847 00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:15,440 patriarchal archetype. And I just think I want to win, 848 00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:17,720 right? So I'm anybody who knows me, 849 00:48:17,720 --> 00:48:21,680 even in passing. I am strong, opinioned and 850 00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:25,640 willful, and I like to be right. But more than I like to be 851 00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:31,480 right, I like to win. And so my certainty is tempered 852 00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:33,600 by that. I want of the people's opinions. 853 00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:39,560 I'm open to being wrong because being right is not as important 854 00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:42,360 to me as winning and masculinity. 855 00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:47,840 The opposite is true. Every moment is about a win 856 00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:52,560 instead of instead of it's about being right, sorry, instead of 857 00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:56,200 considering this long term thriving win. 858 00:48:57,160 --> 00:49:02,040 And so that makes a life that is constantly at battle and never 859 00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:07,320 consensual, never collaborative, never intimate in terms of 860 00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:09,880 building relationships. And you talk about this as well 861 00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:13,760 in your latest book, It's Not Magic, The Auditing Skills of 862 00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:18,800 Extraordinary Leaders, which I was very thankful I got a copy 863 00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:21,080 of a few weeks ago. So I've been having. 864 00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:25,280 But it's brilliant. It's explores the mindset and 865 00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:28,480 intentions needed to truly influence others. 866 00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:32,600 What lessons from that do you think could help us as parents, 867 00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:36,320 teachers or coaches when we're raising boys? 868 00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:41,880 I think the first chapter talks about cultivating an authentic 869 00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:44,120 presence, right? I think there's way too much out 870 00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:45,800 there about this. What's it called? 871 00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:50,320 Executive presence, which I think is, is like how to do man 872 00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:54,120 cosplay for everybody, how to do masculine cosplay is what 873 00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:55,640 executive presence is. To me. 874 00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:58,440 It's nonsense. But being able to cultivate an 875 00:49:58,440 --> 00:50:01,280 authentic presence, it's very obviously you, even if it's 876 00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:05,600 curated for work, but it's calm and credible. 877 00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:09,000 It's such an important thing. Anybody who's a parent watching 878 00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:11,880 this knows you're, you're feeling it today in one way. 879 00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:16,160 I told you earlier about my sister who sent her, my niece 880 00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:19,440 off to school this morning with a big drama about having the 881 00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:23,200 right kind of bag. And the idea that we have can 882 00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:27,360 have an authentic, firm, robust, but calm and credible presence 883 00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:31,200 is just important every single morning, right? 884 00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:36,200 For teachers, every single lesson, every, every moment and 885 00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:38,240 for leaders broadly so important. 886 00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:41,480 I think that's one of them to think of one of the chapters I 887 00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:44,440 talk about how to navigate fractious environments and I 888 00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:47,040 think we just I mean, we could describe the current moment in 889 00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:50,800 many things, but it is certainly a fractious environment full of 890 00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:53,320 change, full of disruption, full of conflict. 891 00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:55,240 Being able to manage that is important. 892 00:50:56,280 --> 00:51:00,920 One of the things that men miss out on is reflective practice if 893 00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:04,360 they follow the norms of of that kind of toxic masculinity, 894 00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:07,560 because one of the things about toxic masculinity is about 895 00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:11,560 having an experience, whether it's a bar fight or a knockdown 896 00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:14,200 dragger argument with your partner or something else. 897 00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:17,040 And then it happens and then you it's gone. 898 00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:19,240 That's, that is a tenant of masculinity. 899 00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:20,400 It happened. It's gone. 900 00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:21,840 Why are we still talking about this? 901 00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:24,720 Many women listening will know that phrase. 902 00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:25,960 Why? Why are we still talking about 903 00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:27,840 that happened yesterday, two weeks ago. 904 00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:29,560 Yeah. I cheated on you two years ago. 905 00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:30,840 Why are we still talking about this? 906 00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:35,560 It's, it's this idea And, and in the book, I talk a lot about how 907 00:51:35,560 --> 00:51:39,000 reflective practice is a key to this and not in this woo woo 908 00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:40,240 way. I'm a scientist. 909 00:51:40,240 --> 00:51:43,560 But the idea that you have an experience and then you dedicate 910 00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:47,080 time to thinking about it, it's implications for you in the 911 00:51:47,080 --> 00:51:51,880 future to enable you to grow and adapt and learn and be a better 912 00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:55,720 person and to allow your masculinity in this context to 913 00:51:55,720 --> 00:51:57,080 evolve. So I think that's really 914 00:51:57,080 --> 00:51:58,320 important. Yeah. 915 00:51:58,440 --> 00:52:00,080 These are the types of things that help us. 916 00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:03,120 And again, the reason the book is called It's Not Magic is 917 00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:06,080 because none of this stuff is complex. 918 00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:08,640 It is energy expensive. It is effortful. 919 00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:14,640 But there is nobody who's currently a capable operating 920 00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:20,480 member of society who can't use one or many of these tools. 921 00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:23,840 And I think that's a great lesson for parents as well. 922 00:52:23,840 --> 00:52:29,880 But you know, with my boys, if they behave in a way that I do 923 00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:33,160 not like, then spending time with them, talking to them. 924 00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:35,200 Why did you do that? How did that make you feel? 925 00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:37,360 How do you think that made somebody else feel that 926 00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:40,360 instilling that reflective practice in them is something 927 00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:44,480 that any parent can do and will hopefully have positive 928 00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:46,720 influences on them as they're growing up? 929 00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:49,480 It, it really, by the way, it really will, it's not even a 930 00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:51,160 question. It will have a positive 931 00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:53,920 influence because even what you just described there, which is 932 00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:57,200 really, it's really, it's kind of basic, but really clever. 933 00:52:57,520 --> 00:53:00,280 You know, what it does is it helps people to be prescient. 934 00:53:00,480 --> 00:53:03,920 It helps people to be able to predict the future because once 935 00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:07,720 they've examined what led up to an argument, it's not just 936 00:53:07,720 --> 00:53:10,600 looking at the argument or the disruptive thing or the how you 937 00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:12,760 got kicked out of the classroom that day. 938 00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:15,720 What led up to that? The moment you start to examine 939 00:53:15,720 --> 00:53:18,560 that, you suddenly, when you're in the midst of that build up, 940 00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:21,720 the next time you suddenly, oh, I know where this is leading. 941 00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:25,840 So at least you can say absolutely, yes, I want all that 942 00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:28,040 smoke. I'm going to follow this pathway 943 00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:30,680 to its inevitable end. But you also have another 944 00:53:30,680 --> 00:53:33,880 choice. We can say this led to an 945 00:53:33,880 --> 00:53:37,920 argument that really damaged my relationship with my partner and 946 00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:39,640 do I want that? And I'm going to avoid it by 947 00:53:39,640 --> 00:53:42,960 saying, look, last time we this happened, it's led to a really 948 00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:45,120 big argument. So I'm going to, I'm not walking 949 00:53:45,120 --> 00:53:46,840 away from you. I'm just going to, I'm going to 950 00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:50,400 go out in the garden and I'm going to take 30 minutes and 951 00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:52,800 deescalate. Just imagine it's like you can 952 00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:56,800 see your life split into the what ifs and that reflective 953 00:53:56,800 --> 00:53:58,920 practice that you just described allows people to do that. 954 00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:02,760 I'm. Also going to make a note that 955 00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:05,920 John Amici said something I said was basic but really clever. 956 00:54:08,000 --> 00:54:09,840 Yeah, you get a tattooed on your on your own. 957 00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:12,800 Yeah, yeah. Next episode we're going to see 958 00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:16,280 it. See, now, now you've said it. 959 00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:18,200 I'm going to expect it. I'm going to tune in. 960 00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:19,840 I don't know. I don't know where it's going to 961 00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:20,840 go. Is it going to be like a 962 00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:22,640 necklace around the right across the chest? 963 00:54:22,640 --> 00:54:24,480 Even even better. Even better. 964 00:54:24,680 --> 00:54:27,920 It has a comeback for season 4, John, so you can see there the 965 00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:29,480 tattoo. I might get by myself as well. 966 00:54:29,720 --> 00:54:32,080 Listen, I don't, I know, I don't know how long, I don't have any 967 00:54:32,080 --> 00:54:34,520 tattoos, I don't know how long it takes to get done, but I I 968 00:54:34,520 --> 00:54:36,680 can just simply watch the next few episodes and see what 969 00:54:36,680 --> 00:54:41,520 happens. I this afternoon I'm out. 970 00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:46,720 Looking back, what do you wish your younger self had known 971 00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:49,080 about being a man? I don't. 972 00:54:49,640 --> 00:54:52,080 It's a big question as. Well, it is, I suppose. 973 00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:54,000 I had. I was so fortunate to have a 974 00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:56,840 different kind of mum and a different kind of family. 975 00:54:57,320 --> 00:55:01,000 That was always a weird, emotionally literate kid. 976 00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:02,960 What do you? Mean different kind of mum and 977 00:55:02,960 --> 00:55:05,920 different kind of family. So I had a mum that never 978 00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:10,160 imposed on me anything other than the idea that masculinity 979 00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:14,520 was personal and faxable and if I was doing it, it must be. 980 00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:17,640 If it was doing it and it was doing no harm to myself or 981 00:55:17,640 --> 00:55:22,200 others, it was an appropriate form of masculinity if I wanted 982 00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:24,480 to. We used to go on holiday to, to 983 00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:26,320 real. It's kind of mandatory for 984 00:55:26,320 --> 00:55:28,600 people from Stockport, Real sunset there for those who've 985 00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:32,080 been a certain age, right? And then we go to Rudling Castle 986 00:55:32,080 --> 00:55:33,160 as well. Loved it. 987 00:55:33,160 --> 00:55:36,480 And I remember going to Rudling Castle and ending up being 988 00:55:36,480 --> 00:55:40,240 absolutely intoxicated by this woman who was sat there on a 989 00:55:40,240 --> 00:55:43,120 bench wearing a big fur coat. Surely Bassey. 990 00:55:43,960 --> 00:55:45,800 Oh, wow. I didn't know. 991 00:55:46,040 --> 00:55:49,600 My mom knew, I didn't know. And I just sat there talking to 992 00:55:49,600 --> 00:55:53,200 this woman in a big fur coat about her fur coat. 993 00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:55,120 And I thought it was perfectly appropriate. 994 00:55:55,440 --> 00:55:57,200 And my mom didn't say anything about it. 995 00:55:57,840 --> 00:56:00,080 And it was perfectly appropriate, right? 996 00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:03,760 And it's just like that is the, the, the, the experience I had. 997 00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:07,120 I was definitely assaulted from the outside about ideas about me 998 00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:09,680 as a person. Was I really a man if I spoke 999 00:56:09,680 --> 00:56:12,240 like I spoke? Because I spoke like I speak, 1000 00:56:12,240 --> 00:56:15,560 right? Was I really a proper masculine 1001 00:56:15,560 --> 00:56:18,360 man if I didn't play sport? Because I wasn't really a fan of 1002 00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:19,720 it? You know, I didn't play until I 1003 00:56:19,720 --> 00:56:22,640 was 17. I avoided rugby at my school. 1004 00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:24,200 I was assaulted by that externally. 1005 00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:27,480 But the picture I had in my head internally, I'm her clever boy. 1006 00:56:27,480 --> 00:56:30,920 OK, and finally, what advice would you give parents raising 1007 00:56:30,920 --> 00:56:34,600 boys who want them to grow into kind, resilient men? 1008 00:56:34,600 --> 00:56:37,560 Tell them early. Tell them often that 1009 00:56:37,560 --> 00:56:42,000 masculinity, if it does no harm to them or to other people, is 1010 00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:44,880 who they are. That it will be personal and 1011 00:56:44,880 --> 00:56:48,840 flexible and evolve over time. Show them with your actions, 1012 00:56:48,840 --> 00:56:52,320 with the look on your face, that when they do stuff subject to 1013 00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:55,880 doing no harm to them and others, that you don't worry 1014 00:56:55,880 --> 00:56:58,720 about whether it's normative, whether it hits some kind of 1015 00:56:58,920 --> 00:57:01,760 ridiculous stereotype or marker of masculinity. 1016 00:57:01,920 --> 00:57:04,440 That you just want them to be operating in a way that helps 1017 00:57:04,440 --> 00:57:07,160 them create connection. Encourage them to have close 1018 00:57:07,160 --> 00:57:11,320 friends who are boys. Encourage them to do stuff in 1019 00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:14,400 your house, not just stuff out of the house. 1020 00:57:14,520 --> 00:57:17,600 Don't rely on that idea that many people do that boys can be 1021 00:57:17,600 --> 00:57:19,960 left on their own to do stuff outside. 1022 00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:22,160 And it's not that they can't ever do that because I think 1023 00:57:22,160 --> 00:57:24,400 it's important for every child to be able to do that. 1024 00:57:25,400 --> 00:57:27,240 But allow them to do stuff in your house. 1025 00:57:27,240 --> 00:57:32,000 Encourage them, whether it's the my sister loves was jig jigsaws. 1026 00:57:32,240 --> 00:57:34,080 I don't really understand what they are, but she likes them 1027 00:57:34,080 --> 00:57:36,080 very much. And encourage them to do stuff 1028 00:57:36,080 --> 00:57:40,400 with you that you might think that they no longer want. 1029 00:57:40,680 --> 00:57:44,800 And then the other thing is many families in all the best will in 1030 00:57:44,800 --> 00:57:49,440 the world, they believe there's a point where intimacy for boys 1031 00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:54,400 with them as parents becomes less important and fathers start 1032 00:57:54,400 --> 00:57:59,240 shaking their son's hand instead of hugging them and mothers, 1033 00:57:59,240 --> 00:58:02,040 they they acquiesced the first rebuff. 1034 00:58:02,160 --> 00:58:06,800 You know that teenage mom don't. We're family. 1035 00:58:06,800 --> 00:58:09,320 The wild consent is important. We're a family that shows our 1036 00:58:09,320 --> 00:58:12,400 affection, and I'm going to tell you that I love you and you're 1037 00:58:12,400 --> 00:58:15,480 going to say thank you because that's what we do when people 1038 00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:17,080 say things that are meaningful to us. 1039 00:58:17,080 --> 00:58:20,760 I my son left for secondary school today and tried to just 1040 00:58:20,760 --> 00:58:25,360 give me a wave, buy more buy more and I grabbed his face and 1041 00:58:25,680 --> 00:58:29,600 kissed it all over and said I love you. 1042 00:58:31,760 --> 00:58:34,040 But know this, know this Jolie, right? 1043 00:58:34,960 --> 00:58:38,480 He, not today, perhaps, and hopefully never, but he will at 1044 00:58:38,480 --> 00:58:44,000 some point experience somebody trying to impugn his identity 1045 00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:49,760 and tell him that he is awful or misshapen or something else, and 1046 00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:55,680 just at the right moment will flood back into his mind that 1047 00:58:55,680 --> 00:58:57,800 image with a completely new context. 1048 00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:02,560 Not rejected, not embarrassed, but like sunshine in the dark. 1049 00:59:02,560 --> 00:59:04,240 That's what. That's what we can do for each 1050 00:59:04,240 --> 00:59:05,240 other. It's lovely. 1051 00:59:05,360 --> 00:59:06,720 Thank you, John. Amazing. 1052 00:59:07,680 --> 00:59:10,160 What a conversation this has been. 1053 00:59:10,600 --> 00:59:14,640 I'm going to have to go now because I'm I am a mess. 1054 00:59:14,680 --> 00:59:17,800 Don't get your tattoo, Jody. Got your appointment at 10? 1055 00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:21,200 Hey, when the Greg's passing. That's been amazing, John. 1056 00:59:21,320 --> 00:59:23,040 Thank you so much. It's been. 1057 00:59:23,040 --> 00:59:24,440 Incredible. Thank you so much. 1058 00:59:24,440 --> 00:59:27,120 Yeah, but what a conversation. We're so grateful to you. 1059 00:59:27,120 --> 00:59:30,480 And go and buy John's book. It's Not Magic. 1060 00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:32,720 The ordinary skills of extraordinary leaders. 1061 00:59:32,720 --> 00:59:35,840 It is absolutely brilliant. And there we go. 1062 00:59:35,880 --> 00:59:37,640 There is a copy of it on the screen. 1063 00:59:37,760 --> 00:59:39,520 Thank you, John. Thank you so much. 1064 00:59:39,800 --> 00:59:40,960 It's my pleasure too. Take care. 1065 00:59:41,080 --> 00:59:43,320 Hey everyone, thank you so much for listening. 1066 00:59:43,320 --> 00:59:45,200 We appreciate you. We really, really do. 1067 00:59:45,640 --> 00:59:48,720 Our community is amazing. If there's any other episodes 1068 00:59:48,760 --> 00:59:52,920 you want us to rerun or topics that you want us to cover, you 1069 00:59:52,920 --> 00:59:56,480 know what to do. e-mail us, get in contact on social media, 1070 00:59:56,480 --> 00:59:58,360 Instagram, LinkedIn, and let us know. 1071 00:59:59,120 --> 00:59:59,880 We'll see you next week.