This episode is supported by Movember, the leading charity
changing the face of Men's Health.
Welcome back to To Be a Boy podcast with me, Elliot Ray.
And me, Jolly Braley. So if you haven't seen Inside
the Manosphere, you must have been living under a rock or
you're just a really, really busy working parent.
But just like adolescents, it's thrown the issue of the
manosphere back into the national news.
The documentary was fascinating viewing and it did a great job
of raising awareness of how these influencers function.
But many pointing out that they wanted more to dig deeper into
why boys are interested in this content in the 1st place.
The impact of the manosphere on boys and girls.
And as worried parents, what can we do about it?
So welcome back to our first to be a boy of attorney, Inika
Haltenbus, Senior Safeguarding Trainer at the NSPCC, who's
going to help us to understand this all.
Inika, welcome back. Thank you, thank you so much for
having me. I'll I'll do my best setting me
up here. You were great last time, so I
have full confidence in you. Thank you so much for having me.
It's great being here again and seeing you folks.
It's great to have you. So the documentary, it's been
the talk of the town. What did you think about it from
a personal and professional perspective?
What were your reflections? I didn't know who a lot of the
people in it were. Some of them kind of looked
familiar, but I kind of found it very eye opening from the point
of view of how entrenched those thoughts were and how important
those thoughts were more so to their visibility on the sites
rather than what they actually truly believed.
I think one of them even said something like, you know, I
don't, I don't really care what you think about what I'm saying.
I just, I'm just doing it for views and that that kind of
threw me a little bit because I was, I was really kind of of the
belief that this was something they staunchly like believed in.
And I think some of them do. But I think it is about that,
that whole concept of rage baiting.
And he explained it I think very well.
Like the more extreme I am, the more views I'm going to get, the
more money I'm going to make. And that kind of set the scene
for me then a little bit in terms of some of the reasoning
behind why you would say something like that.
Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I think for me, I knew
that they were grifters, but I think I think it really
highlighted how calculated they are, especially the HS ticky
talky. He knows exactly what he's
doing, whether he believes it or not, he knows I say these
things, kids are going to watch, they're going to buy my
investment program. I'm going to make more money.
I don't really care the impact. And that's life.
We live in a capitalist world. I'm making my money.
I care about myself. And I think that was an eye
opener for everyone. And it was like, yeah,
sickening, Really sickening. Yeah.
So in terms of the conversation about the manosphere, what
should parents like really understand about it?
You know, they haven't seen the documentary.
It's it's great. You should watch it if you
haven't. Definitely.
I think a lot of people go away with a lot of questions, maybe
more than answers. What would you say parents
should understand away from just a documentary and the
sensational news about it at its core?
What should parents understand about the manosphere?
I think they need to understand a couple of different things.
It fills a void for boys who are trying to figure out who am I,
right, which they're supposed to do, you know, as teenagers, who
am I? Where do I fit in the world, all
that kind of stuff. I think it's important to be
aware that boys don't necessarily look for this stuff
or necessarily search for somebody because they have
certain ideas. Somebody might be funny,
somebody might be a bit, you know, testing the boundaries a
little bit, which resonates with young people because that's the
phase in their life. It's what they're supposed to
do. So they might think it's kind of
funny, but it's also that boys don't necessarily go searching
for this content and that very often it hides behind content
that really feeds into insecurities for anybody, right?
How do I look? Jim Bros healthy eating, being
positive about yourself. These messages hide in those
algorithms very often. So if you're a kid and you're
just online and you don't really know how an algorithm works and
you're like, yeah, I want to get a little bit buffer.
I want to go to the gym. It's really easy now to fall
into this kind of content because they're very closely
linked. And I think that's that's a
really important nuance to understand around this concept.
And that's the worrying thing isn't, it's not, it's not like
all kids are going out looking for this and searching these
guys. They're just online.
They're looking at, you know, how to make money, start a
business, health and fitness, and this gets promoted to them.
What do we know about how common the content is?
We've been working with Vodafone since 2023.
So they did an analysis of 1000 parents of 11 to 14 year olds
and 4000 teachers, right? So what they found was that 59%
of boys who were online didn't look for this content at all.
They were just doing innocent searches about stuff that they
might be interested in, like football or health.
And the algorithm pushed that on them.
And 52% of say that they have engaged with that content with
ties from the monosphere, and 69% of boys have been exposed to
online contents that promotes misogyny.
So there's different levels of it that they're kind of seeing.
So they might hear a concept, find that interesting, land on
the algorithm, and then start getting fed more and more
extreme points of view, which I think often, I mean, you're
talking 11 to 14. There's a lot you're learning
about the world. There's a lot you're learning
about what it takes to be who I am.
So all of these influences are really, really powerful and it's
and it's making a big difference.
One in five parents said that they actually noticed a change
in language from their boys in terms of how they talked about
women and girls. 70% of teachers saw the rise of excess language
in the classroom. So it feels insidious, feels
very kind of low threshold in terms of how to search for this.
Like we're not sitting on the dark web.
You know it's there, it's there and that's what you think.
And that's important because I feel like there have been some
people have tried to downplay the influence of the manosphere
of like, oh, we can't blame it all on that.
Of course, there's many issues as to why we are here and why
misogyny and sexism is in the increase.
But the manosphere is real and our kids are seeing it.
Not all of our kids, but a lot of our kids are seeing it.
And it's not always their fault. They're going online that the
messages and, and the content is getting fed to them.
They're seeing it and it's influencing how they are
thinking. And so I think we all have to
like, be aware of what's going on.
Even if you think your kid, he's a good kid who isn't looking at
that content, they're probably seeing it from their friends.
I was talking to a parent the other day and they were saying
that the teacher in their school, a woman, was getting the
homework given to them by some of the boys.
And at the bottom was, oh, miss, can you make me a sandwich at
lunchtime when they handed their when they handed their homework
in. And they're seeing just this
rise of these young boys that are like 12 years old just
disrespecting their female teachers and like asking them to
make them lunch and stuff like that.
And it's ridiculous. So I think, yeah, we need to be
aware of how widespread this is. And I think one thing that the
documentary didn't do, which I was personally a bit
disappointed by, was talk about the impact this is having on
boys and on girls in terms of the increase of violence against
women and girls, but also the harmful impacts on boys as well.
So can you talk a little bit about the impacts, like how does
this manifest in regards to our boys and girls, their behavior,
their outcomes? Well, I mean, at the very core,
I think, you know, it puts women and girls in in danger.
That puts them at risk. And I think they know that.
So they're starting to change their behavior, which is not
what we want, because we want everybody to experience the
world in, in all of its glory, right?
You, you don't want kids to be, to be scared of being
themselves. But even boys who don't
necessarily subscribe to this thinking feel pressure because
it is very kind of alpha male driven.
It is very kind of driven around, You know, I'm, I'm a
tough guy. So it's hard to kind of go
against that a little bit. So even if they're not into it,
it's difficult to get themselves out of that thinking.
So it so it impacts on both, you know, and we see, you know, the
violence against women and girls is is at epidemic levels.
And we have to recognize that that's coming from somewhere and
that has to be challenged in a way that allows for learning.
Right. But I think one of the things
that they were saying is that there's also an intersection of
the degradation, if you know what I mean there.
It's not just misogynist, it's often also linked to racism or
anti-Semitism. So there's there's deeper kind
of concepts coming through what we think of as misogyny that are
actually linking to a lot more different types of
radicalization. And that's a very slippery
slope. I think that I find that really
interesting, that you say girls are adopting their behavior
because they intrinsically know in their DNA that they're
becoming less safe. And we know that girls are more
likely now to say that they should do as they are told.
You know, if a man tells them to do something they should do as
they are told by a man, then perhaps our generation were.
And that, you know, I've been wondering where that was coming
from. Obviously they are also exposed
to this content online where women should know their place
and their places in the home and they should be making babies and
shutting up. But my experience of girls,
younger girls, is that they they behave much more powerfully than
I did when I was younger. Yet the data is showing that
actually they're behaving in a much more different way to men
and male behaviour. And that's so interesting that
you say it could. It comes from a place of knowing
deep down that actually you're less safe now in this new world.
Yeah, yeah. And I think, I think the, the,
the paradox in it is that alongside the monosphere, we
also have the rise of kind of the triad wife influencers, you
know, really traditional, you know, female roles.
And, and The funny thing about it is that's, that's kind of
what feminism was all about. But they position themselves as
anti feminist, whereas the feminist movement is like, no,
we should be able to do what we want.
If we want to stay at home, we should be able to do that.
If we want to go out and work, we should be able to do, if we
want to do a combination, we should.
But they're they're both positioned very kind of anti
feminism. And then, you know, we've got
terminology like toxic masculinity as well.
And I think it's a funny one because we kind of skipped over
the conversation about masculinity.
You know, when you're doing all that work, Elliot, you know, and
in your lane in terms of what does masculinity mean?
And and that's a positive thing and it's a good thing.
Whereas boys are only hearing masculinity linked to toxicity.
So they think that the message is that masculinity is toxic.
And these monosphere kind of influencers hop onto that idea
where it's actually like everything.
It's the nuance. Masculinity is not toxic in and
of itself. It's a beautiful thing and
should be celebrated and nurtured.
But when it's toxic, it becomes dangerous.
And I think that nuance gets lost in the monosphere and the
trod wife kind of spheres. Because we are also seeing a
rise in people online being really negative about men and
boys as well, right? I mean, IA lot, I see lots of
people posting saying things like male loneliness epidemic,
you're not lonely enough or really malicious things about
men and boys. And of course boys.
Like, I get it from it. If you've been at the hand of
masculinity, that is toxic. If you've experienced abuse,
harassment, the patriarchy and it's full, then I get why you're
angry. But at the same time, for boys
that are not responsible for that behaviour, when all they're
seeing are women and girls saying horrible things about
their sex, inevitably they're going to want to go somewhere
where they feel safe and protected and like somebody's
standing up for them. And often the monosphere.
Yeah. And, and it kind of goes back, I
think to obviously, you know, I'm not, I'm not an expert in
algorithms, but it's just my reflection is that it's, it's
almost the same kind of mechanism at play in terms of
the more extreme I am, the more likes I'm going to get.
So rather than it being a nuanced conversation about, you
know, the roles of men and women have changed, you know, in a
relatively short period of time. And how do we figure that out
together? How do we figure out, you know,
who we are in relationship to each other and how do we work so
that we can get the most out of each other?
Nobody's going to click on that link.
Like nobody cares, right? They want to hear somebody be
super extreme because that raises a conversation that's
like rage baiting almost, you know, that people are doing.
And, and the disconcerting thing is that is that young people
maybe who spend a lot of time online think that that's real
and think that that's a real conversation or is actually, no,
we're, we're, we're fishing for likes here.
Yeah. And I think that the kind of
positive content is never going to compete because.
No. It doesn't get the clicks right,
it's not sensational, it's not negative, it doesn't make
headlines, it can't compete. So I think it needs to be
embedded in how we do things in regards to the schooling system
and family and more of a day-to-day real life setting.
I think it's also important, like, you know, we've spoken
about the finance against women and girls and the impacts on
girls, but also to point out this is bad for boys as well.
Now they're being sold a dream here.
This is not reality. It's not going to work out very
well for you. This is not success.
All the things they're saying are is it's a lie, basically.
And November have pointed out from their research that a lot
of the boys that engage with this content, they actually have
worse mental health outcomes over time, higher psychological
distress, higher steroid use, higher gambling type behaviors,
like has a negative impact on these boys, Like they are the
victims, you know, in this as as well.
So it doesn't work for for any of our young people.
So let's talk a little bit about what you think are the signs of
a child who is like vulnerable. I think every child is probably
vulnerable, but are there particular young boys that you
see through NSPCC that come to a particular traits that you say,
OK, that may be a particularly vulnerable person that may be a
parent needs to needs to stay stay even closer to.
I think that, yeah. And what we do believe that we
believe that children are, are vulnerable just because they're
they're children and they kind of haven't had the experiences
in life that a lot of us as adults have had.
And that's why we have a responsibility to keep them safe
and create safe environments for them.
But unfortunately, we know that that doesn't always happen.
There are children who are experiencing abuse, There's
children who are experiencing loneliness.
There's there's kids who are out there, you know, as a very
natural part of being a teenager is trying to figure out who I
am, You know, what do I like to wear?
What music do I like to, to listen to?
All of those things are actually very natural parts of growing
up. But if you have a child who's
experienced kind of adverse childhood experiences like abuse
or neglect or, or anything like that, that sense of loneliness
and ability to grab an identity becomes even more difficult.
And that's exactly where these people then fall in, because
this kids potentially not having anyone give them a good example.
There's nobody in their life who kind of cares what they're
doing. There's nobody who's talking to
them about, you know, what's going on for you.
How are you feeling? How are you experiencing the
world? Obviously, we wouldn't talk to
kids like that, but literally speaking that level of interest,
there's a lot of young people walking around who don't really
have that. And I think I said it the last
time, you know, that I was on here as well.
If, if we don't talk to children and young people about some of
these issues, the Internet will. Yeah.
And so we have to be there as almost a counterbalance, you
know, So I hear what you're saying.
What are you looking at? What does that mean to you?
You know, how are you interpreting that in terms of
your relationships towards other people?
They're really complex questions that we have to educate
ourselves to be able to ask kids because that's not necessarily
that we were raised. I mean, I'm a kid of the 70s.
Do you remember, you're like, go outside.
You cannot come back home because once you were home, that
was it. You couldn't go outside again,
right? It's just it's not how we grew.
Up. Good old days.
They were the good days. Can we go back please?
And nobody could take a picture of you doing anything goofy.
Like, if you weren't there, it never happened.
There's a lot there that it's not just, you know, children
who've been been born into this online world.
And a lot of us have had to adjust to the online world, but
ultimately, just as it would have been our responsibility to
make sure that our kids, that we told our kids, don't go down to
that neighborhood. Everybody knows that
neighborhood is bad news, right? That's how we grew up.
Yet we're not doing that with kids because we think you're
safe because you're upstairs in your room, but you're not.
You're hanging around in the neighborhood you should not be
in. Yeah, I struggle with this.
I've got a three-year old and a 1010 year old and I found with
my 10 year old, over the last year I've had to just be super
honest about the world. And part of it pains me because
I want it. I would have to be innocent.
I want to just be a kid and just run around the field of
daffodils, live this ideal life they want.
You to frolic. Yeah, just like, you know, enjoy
yourself, just be innocent. But I know that's not good
enough. That's not good enough because
she needs to learn how to treat other people first and foremost,
how to protect herself. But also now we have this new
thing, smartphones and social media that is giving her and
we'll be giving her through means, friendships, phones, etc,
content that is harmful. And so I need to be and my wife,
we need to be, as you say, another voice.
That's hard though for parents. It's not like it's tricky,
right? It's against that mindset of
I've got a nine year old, I have to have a conversation about
sexism and misogyny and racism and all these big adult topics.
Like how do how do parents get into the mind frame of doing
that when you weren't you weren't used to that from
growing up yourself? I think a lot of it is
challenging ideas, right? I'll give you an example.
So my daughter, I think she was like 4 and she came out of
school and she was like, hi, this boy was mean to me.
And I was like, which boy? Where's his parents?
Let's have a conversation. But the the teacher was like,
oh, well, you know, when a boy is mean to you, it just means he
likes you. And I just thought, we're still
doing this. I'm sorry and we not do this.
So it's things like that that you know, in in a very kind of
age appropriate way, you know, without using those big words
that might be scary. You know, it's like you can go
down to your 4 year old, but no baby, if somebody hurts you,
that is bad, that is always bad and people who hurt you don't
love you. All right.
So that's kind of the basis because we want that to be the
foundation so that if they're ever in a situation or somebody
hurts them, they know this is bad, this is not supposed to be
happening. Talk about it, talk to somebody
about it. And that kind of leads me to
that next thing. I worked as a child line
supervisor for many years. And what I found really
interesting was that a lot of kids were would say, I love my
parents, they're amazing parents, but I can't talk to
them about what's going on for me, right?
And we would be like, help me understand that.
What is that about? And they'd say, because they
don't have any problems. And I was like, for sure, your
parents have problems. But again, it's that old
fashioned thinking, right? Of, you know, we don't talk
about issues in front of our kids.
And again, I would challenge that gently.
I would kind of and obviously age appropriate talk to your
kids. Like something happened to me
and work and somebody said something to me that I didn't
really like. Like what, Like what do you
think? You know, you can be doing
something and engage them and, and say, well, what what are
your thoughts about that? You know, what do you think I
should do? Because it creates A framework
for a dialogue that we have in this house.
If there's something that I'm not too sure of, it's normal for
us to go. Why do you hear this?
That happened to me today. That's what we're trying to
create. That's great advice because my
eldest loves it when I go to her with a problem she's like my
daddy's asking for my opinion like she she feels so empowered
and I get what you're saying then it will help her to do the
same with me as well. Great advice.
So if a if a parent suspects their child is watching the
manosphere, they're looking at these guys consuming the
content, what should they do about it?
What's the conversation I should be having?
I think it starts before even having the conversation.
I think it starts with educating yourself because what I found
whenever I watched the documentary was that there was a
lot of language being used and I had no idea what it meant.
I had no idea what it meant, right?
So I had to kind of start looking up some of this
terminology. And as I was doing it, I was
kind of like, is this the flag? Is this what we're looking for
as parents? Because I don't know about you,
but you ever have that when you're having a conversation
with your kid and they're like using language, you're like.
I can't even remember what you said, but I was like, what?
What were you talking about? It was a word that you used for
a lie. I.
Can't even remember the. Words.
I was like, what does that mean? He was like her mum, lie and
it's always meant a lie. I.
Think it has but OK go to school all.
Right, I'll take your word for it.
So, so I, I came up with a couple, right?
So I'm going to see if you guys know because I had no idea.
Is this a game? Is this a game with the game?
Right. OK, we're going to play games.
So set up the game what we're doing here.
So you're going to ask. Us a few a few questions kind of
looked up some words both that were used in the documentary
because I had no idea what they were and I think this was one of
the ones that that was used a lot that I literally had to like
look up on my phone. So I'm going to see if you guys
know right. So what does MOG mean?
I was the word he used this morning.
What was it? It means a lie, he told me.
It means you lying. It means to outshine someone
physically. So if you're mogging someone, it
means that like, you're looking better than them, so you're
making them look ugly because you look so good.
Wow, I had no idea what that meant.
The other one that I found was looks maxing, yeah.
I've heard of that. That's something about like from
my understanding, it's like making the roast out of your
looks, right? Like it's just because what you
know, they do the like hit their their jawline to make it tight.
It's like looks. Maxing.
That's mewing. Isn't that when you do that?
Yeah. And now, is that about having a
chiseled jewel Mewing? Yes, Maxing is, yeah.
So looks maxing is all about like making the most of your
attributes by either going to the gym, going to, you know,
eating healthy, you know, even sleep marks maxing, you know, we
knew. But again, it shows how easy it
is to kind of go into that, that, yeah, that atmosphere
because like, I'm not sleeping too well.
So now I'm looking for tips and all of a sudden now I'm talking
about looks Max that it's so quick the loop.
Get my kids to go to bed on time.
I just call it sleep Max and then they might go.
That's you. I'm sleep maxing.
All my kids are out cold 8:00. Come on kids, you need to wait,
Max. I feel like I start sleep Max in
nice guys start going to bed early.
What was the other one he used? Oh yes.
So you know how they they talk about the red pill and the blue
pill? I wasn't sure.
Even though I love the Matrix, totally into it, love it.
I couldn't remember. But there's also a black pill.
Yeah. So the red pill, right, is the
one I think that Neo is given in the movie.
And that's where you adopt the belief that society hides the
truth from you, right? And then the blue pill is that
you remain unaware. Yeah, we're blue pills, right?
Yes, 100% obviously so. And then the black pill is that
attractiveness is biologically fixed.
So if you're inferior, you're just going to be inferior.
That's it. There's nothing you can do about
it. Interesting.
I think that different. I knew that red pill meant that
you could see. You can see the world for what
it really is. Yeah, you are like you have the
insight and you you are not pretending anymore.
And this is you finally had the blindfold lifted and can see
everything as it is. I didn't realize Black pilled
was about, but there's the hierarchy and you can't break
out of that hierarchy. Yeah, and that goes into the in
cell thing, right? The involuntary celibate, super,
super dangerous and very, very dark.
But one of the things that I found as well in it is, is that
concept of the because I think at one point, what did he called
him a soy boy. He called boy a soy boy.
And I was like, obviously it's not a good thing, but what does
it mean? So it is a feminized insult used
to mock men who are perceived as wheat.
Because like, you wouldn't eat or eat meat.
You're like a vegan, so therefore you like he.
Hadn't made that link. Sorry, boys, but yeah, yeah.
So, yeah, so it's so interesting because there was so much
language that they used within that that atmosphere.
And one of the the men in the documentary was also talking
about that concept of alpha and beta, right?
And the alpha. And it's really interesting
because I am a little bit of an animal Kingdom nerd and I love
wolves. And I was like, I thought that
wasn't like a thing. So again, I dug a little bit
deeper into that. And, and the whole concept of
the alpha and the beta came from a research study that was done
in like, the the 70s, yeah, 1970.
But they observed wolves in captivity and saw that the
wolves that were in captivity would fight for dominance.
And he based his theory on that and then realized his mistake
and then spent the rest of his career trying to say there is no
such thing as alpha and beta because wolves are just led by
elders. So the elders teach the children
where to find the food, how to hunt, and they lead and really
interestingly as well that the strongest members of the pack
are usually at the back because they're kind of, you know,
making sure that that they're safe, that the whole pack is
safe. And that's where you lead from,
which kind of again, goes against this whole mythology
around the alpha and beta concept, which which has been
disproven literally since the 70s, but we're still holding on
to it. So it's it's all those kind of
thought patterns that unfortunately we as parents now
have to start breaking down and saying that's that's not
actually right. Means to talk to HP Ticky talkie
or whatever his name is. What's his name?
HP Ticky. We'll keep it as that.
Let's keep it as HP. I like that that's don't even
say your name correctly. That's how much we don't even
like you say, yeah, yeah, it does talk to the whole this is a
lie. This is a this is this
fabricated nonsense. And it's it's not reality.
OK, so let's let's a parent, they've got a 12 year old boy
watching this content. They're really worried.
They are trying to have conversations about positive
masculinity and they're trying to bring in in role models into
the family and they're they're trying to counteract all the
negativity they're seeing online, but it's maybe not
working. Actually, their kids still
saying sexiest things around the dinner table or their kid is
still still watching this stuff and he goes to his friend's
house. Like they're still worried.
What? What should a parent do at that
point? This is one of the hardest
things, I think that we learn as parents is that you have to
enforce rules consistently all the time, every time.
And that's really hard because half the time we're exhausted
and we've got I want to buy the things and we go.
But it's about how do we talk to each other?
How do we engage with each other?
How do we relate to one another? And sometimes that is about
using your authority as a parent to start to restrict certain
things because they need that. And I know what kind of feels a
little bit uncomfortable because we don't want to be those kind
of parents that, you know, you're here to be seen and not
heard type thing. You know, we don't want to go to
that authoritarian, but they do need guidance.
They do need that. So maybe it is about those
friends are not a good influence on you, so we're going to try
and get you into something else. That phone, you're not using it
according to the rules of the home you're visiting, sites that
you're not allowed to visit, so your phone gets taken off you.
The difficulty is that of course the child is going to freak out
and hate you and potentially you can say that to face, but it is
about recognizing that of course they are testing boundaries and
we forget that. I think sometimes we think about
the terrible twos and we take it for granted that the terrible
twos are just going to happen. But when teenagers get into like
after that puberty thing, their brain chemistry is changing.
They're out there to test boundaries all the time.
So I would say, you know how protective and patient you tried
to be with them when they were two and they're terrible twos.
That's exactly the input that they need when they're a bit
older. And we forget that sometimes
because we think you're big now, you're going to big school.
And it's like, no, you're not. No, you're not.
Emotionally, psychologically, physically, your brain
chemistry, you're not. You need that guidance from
someone to say that's not OK and we can have that conversation
about it, but if that's not going anywhere, then we're going
to have some sanctions around that.
And I know that that's super, super uncomfortable, but it's
better in the long run for a child to know you are my safe
landing space. Because if you need to make a
decision for my best interests, you're going to do it.
I love this part of the conversation because I feel, I
feel like we have spoken so much about gentle parenting, you
know, as a society in England over the last years in, in the
UK. And when I think back about my
parenting, how I was parenting, it was so different.
A little bit of gentle parenting was in there sometimes, but
there was more like, you know, just do what I say and, and
that's it. And who's the boss.
And when I think about my as teenage years between maybe 14
and 18, I wouldn't be where I was without that.
I needed that. And if my parents were gentle
and let me do whatever I wanted to do, I would have got in
trouble. And of course, at the time, I
probably would have wanted them to just let me do what I wanted
to do because I thought at the time I was, you know, the boss
and I knew what I was doing. But I didn't.
I was a kid. I didn't know what was.
Best for you and I think. Sometimes we're scared to just
be parents and scared for our kids not to like us and to put
our foot down and have authority.
I think we're actually discouraged from doing that, you
know? Yeah, and people judge you,
don't they? Yeah, well, I mean, you know, I
remember the the best advice that I ever got when I was
wearing my children when they were little was that other
people will judge you for how you parent, but they don't have
to live with the consequences of you not parenting your child in
that moment. Right.
So I had, you know, she's going to love me for this.
I had a little 2 year old who literally demanded ice cream for
breakfast. And when obviously the answer
was no, we would have massive screaming meltdowns.
And I needed to not engage with that.
So I'm standing there looking like a crazy person, letting my
child cry. But she needed to learn that
that's not going to work. You're not going to get my
attention this way. Yeah.
And I have to do it there and then.
Yeah, and we're not talking about, we're not talking about
beating the kids and stuff like that, right?
We're just talking about putting in boundaries around like you
can't take your phone to bed, for example, No, or you're not
going to get TikTok at 12 years old, like things like that.
But. These are the sort of things we
should be. Comfortable.
I hate you. And we're slamming doors and
it's like, OK, all right, I'm the worst.
I'll take it. I'll take it.
Don't take it. I'm the worst in the world.
OK. And so, so let's let's build on
that then. So what else, what else should
parents be doing once they've done that?
OK, now we are restricting and authority, the conversations
continue. Is there anything else that you
can you can give parents that are listening?
I guess, you know, lead by example, kids.
Kids learn more by what they see happening than what you tell
them. So if they see you behave in a
certain way or see you talk in a certain way, they're going to
pick up on that and actually promote healthy masculinity
because there is a lot of content online as well that
promotes healthy masculinity. You know, the stuff that you're
doing. And we've got like dope black
dads, you know, there is a lot of really positive masculinity
out there. So again, when I'm talking about
doing a little bit of research, it's about finding those
websites and talking to your child about maybe maybe look at
this instead, maybe we can learn from this instead and then
follow through with that. You know, are there activities
that that these people are doing that you might want to get into?
You know, whether it be footballers, whether it be, you
know, whatever sport they might be interested in or, or authors
or artists, what whatever they're kind of interested in,
be your child's algorithm. I guess, you know, don't rely on
that. The internet's algorithm.
You be the child's algorithm to say this is the kind of content
I want you to watch and learn from.
November, I think are doing a project on this.
They're looking for creators who are going to do videos and
content that is about positive masculinity.
I'm not sure how far down the road they are with it, but I
know that they are investing in that and creators that do
promote really positive masculinity.
And Jordan Stephenson is always somebody that I try and
encourage. I want my kids to watch because
I think he has this knack of like he's accessible to kids.
He uses accessible language. He's quite cool and interesting.
And yet everything he says is so insightful and thoughtful and
positive, you know, positive about masculinity and anti
sexist. So yeah, he's always somebody I
kind of point to as he's a good guy.
Watch him, yeah. Thank you so much for this, it's
been incredible. How can parents access to NSPCC?
What resources support do you offer?
So we have loads of resources around Internet safety, but also
a misogyny master class that you can access on NSPCC learning.
Just, you know, use whatever search engine you're using it
and stick that in there. We also, as I was saying
earlier, so we've done a whole bunch of webinars in partnership
with Vodafone and they're all free.
They are geared mostly towards education professionals, but you
can get a lot out of them in terms of how to work with young
people, but also understanding some of the sense around digital
footprints, gaming, online gambling, all those kind of
topics. Are there kind of the end bits
of the webinars? Go more into what you can do as
a school, but as a parent it could be really, really useful
for you to watch as well. Amazing.
We'll put all the links in the show notes, so check them out
there. So let's end with some hope.
You know, it's been a a great conversation, but obviously a
difficult one, right? And we're all worried a little
bit stressed about this. So let's end with some hope.
Give us some hope. What?
What, What are you seeing that helps you feel like this is
going to get better in the future?
I think we see the Internet sometimes as an enemy and A and
a danger. But we created the Internet,
right? Society created the Internet.
So we have the power as well to create kind of the antidote to a
lot of this, whether that be, you know, in our personal
relationships with children and young people in terms of how we
talk to them, how we support them, how we teach and guide
them and nurture their spirit. But also at what we point them
to in terms of good inputs from positive role models around the
world. And I think young people are
really resilient, they're really smart.
They're so rooted in a lot of ways in goodness and fairness.
And, you know, they're changing the landscape of of the working
world in terms of their expectations.
Of how they're treated. So I think there's so much to be
said for how young people of today are going to be changing
the world. I think we can't just let them
do that on their own and figuring it out on their own.
And they think they need us to support them and help them and
be role models for them in that process.
Beautiful, poetic, some would say.
Anika, our first returner, second time around.
Thanks for coming back. My pleasure and my joy.
Thank you so much. It was so great to see you guys
again. Thank you so much.
Thank you. See you everyone.