1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:04,880 This episode is supported by Movember, the leading charity 2 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:07,160 changing the face of Men's Health. 3 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:15,160 Welcome back to To Be a Boy podcast with me, Elliot Ray. 4 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:20,040 And me, Jolly Braley. So if you haven't seen Inside 5 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:24,080 the Manosphere, you must have been living under a rock or 6 00:00:24,240 --> 00:00:26,480 you're just a really, really busy working parent. 7 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:29,120 But just like adolescents, it's thrown the issue of the 8 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:32,000 manosphere back into the national news. 9 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:34,880 The documentary was fascinating viewing and it did a great job 10 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:38,120 of raising awareness of how these influencers function. 11 00:00:38,160 --> 00:00:42,360 But many pointing out that they wanted more to dig deeper into 12 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:45,240 why boys are interested in this content in the 1st place. 13 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:48,200 The impact of the manosphere on boys and girls. 14 00:00:48,480 --> 00:00:50,920 And as worried parents, what can we do about it? 15 00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:54,800 So welcome back to our first to be a boy of attorney, Inika 16 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:59,040 Haltenbus, Senior Safeguarding Trainer at the NSPCC, who's 17 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:01,600 going to help us to understand this all. 18 00:01:02,320 --> 00:01:06,240 Inika, welcome back. Thank you, thank you so much for 19 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:08,840 having me. I'll I'll do my best setting me 20 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:11,480 up here. You were great last time, so I 21 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:14,840 have full confidence in you. Thank you so much for having me. 22 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:17,040 It's great being here again and seeing you folks. 23 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:20,400 It's great to have you. So the documentary, it's been 24 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:23,480 the talk of the town. What did you think about it from 25 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:25,920 a personal and professional perspective? 26 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:28,800 What were your reflections? I didn't know who a lot of the 27 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:32,000 people in it were. Some of them kind of looked 28 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:36,280 familiar, but I kind of found it very eye opening from the point 29 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:41,680 of view of how entrenched those thoughts were and how important 30 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:47,200 those thoughts were more so to their visibility on the sites 31 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:49,760 rather than what they actually truly believed. 32 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:53,320 I think one of them even said something like, you know, I 33 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:56,720 don't, I don't really care what you think about what I'm saying. 34 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:02,000 I just, I'm just doing it for views and that that kind of 35 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:05,280 threw me a little bit because I was, I was really kind of of the 36 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:09,039 belief that this was something they staunchly like believed in. 37 00:02:09,039 --> 00:02:12,320 And I think some of them do. But I think it is about that, 38 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:14,760 that whole concept of rage baiting. 39 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:16,640 And he explained it I think very well. 40 00:02:16,640 --> 00:02:22,080 Like the more extreme I am, the more views I'm going to get, the 41 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:25,800 more money I'm going to make. And that kind of set the scene 42 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:30,120 for me then a little bit in terms of some of the reasoning 43 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:33,080 behind why you would say something like that. 44 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:37,360 Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I think for me, I knew 45 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:42,040 that they were grifters, but I think I think it really 46 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:46,280 highlighted how calculated they are, especially the HS ticky 47 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:47,840 talky. He knows exactly what he's 48 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:51,920 doing, whether he believes it or not, he knows I say these 49 00:02:51,920 --> 00:02:54,760 things, kids are going to watch, they're going to buy my 50 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:57,160 investment program. I'm going to make more money. 51 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:00,720 I don't really care the impact. And that's life. 52 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:02,840 We live in a capitalist world. I'm making my money. 53 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:05,720 I care about myself. And I think that was an eye 54 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:07,440 opener for everyone. And it was like, yeah, 55 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:11,120 sickening, Really sickening. Yeah. 56 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:15,600 So in terms of the conversation about the manosphere, what 57 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:17,720 should parents like really understand about it? 58 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:19,080 You know, they haven't seen the documentary. 59 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:20,440 It's it's great. You should watch it if you 60 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:21,720 haven't. Definitely. 61 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:24,920 I think a lot of people go away with a lot of questions, maybe 62 00:03:24,920 --> 00:03:27,720 more than answers. What would you say parents 63 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:30,720 should understand away from just a documentary and the 64 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:33,920 sensational news about it at its core? 65 00:03:33,920 --> 00:03:35,440 What should parents understand about the manosphere? 66 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:38,000 I think they need to understand a couple of different things. 67 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:41,920 It fills a void for boys who are trying to figure out who am I, 68 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:45,320 right, which they're supposed to do, you know, as teenagers, who 69 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:46,920 am I? Where do I fit in the world, all 70 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:49,080 that kind of stuff. I think it's important to be 71 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:53,560 aware that boys don't necessarily look for this stuff 72 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:57,320 or necessarily search for somebody because they have 73 00:03:57,320 --> 00:04:00,240 certain ideas. Somebody might be funny, 74 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:03,280 somebody might be a bit, you know, testing the boundaries a 75 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:06,080 little bit, which resonates with young people because that's the 76 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:08,120 phase in their life. It's what they're supposed to 77 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:09,880 do. So they might think it's kind of 78 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:13,720 funny, but it's also that boys don't necessarily go searching 79 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:19,880 for this content and that very often it hides behind content 80 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:22,800 that really feeds into insecurities for anybody, right? 81 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:26,880 How do I look? Jim Bros healthy eating, being 82 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:30,200 positive about yourself. These messages hide in those 83 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:33,880 algorithms very often. So if you're a kid and you're 84 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:37,600 just online and you don't really know how an algorithm works and 85 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:40,000 you're like, yeah, I want to get a little bit buffer. 86 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:43,480 I want to go to the gym. It's really easy now to fall 87 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:46,880 into this kind of content because they're very closely 88 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:49,120 linked. And I think that's that's a 89 00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:52,400 really important nuance to understand around this concept. 90 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:54,400 And that's the worrying thing isn't, it's not, it's not like 91 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:56,800 all kids are going out looking for this and searching these 92 00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:58,520 guys. They're just online. 93 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:01,720 They're looking at, you know, how to make money, start a 94 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:05,920 business, health and fitness, and this gets promoted to them. 95 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:08,960 What do we know about how common the content is? 96 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:12,760 We've been working with Vodafone since 2023. 97 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:19,840 So they did an analysis of 1000 parents of 11 to 14 year olds 98 00:05:19,840 --> 00:05:24,640 and 4000 teachers, right? So what they found was that 59% 99 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:30,560 of boys who were online didn't look for this content at all. 100 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:34,400 They were just doing innocent searches about stuff that they 101 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:36,680 might be interested in, like football or health. 102 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:39,240 And the algorithm pushed that on them. 103 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:47,360 And 52% of say that they have engaged with that content with 104 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:52,480 ties from the monosphere, and 69% of boys have been exposed to 105 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:54,880 online contents that promotes misogyny. 106 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:58,240 So there's different levels of it that they're kind of seeing. 107 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:02,240 So they might hear a concept, find that interesting, land on 108 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:05,600 the algorithm, and then start getting fed more and more 109 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:09,000 extreme points of view, which I think often, I mean, you're 110 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:11,800 talking 11 to 14. There's a lot you're learning 111 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:13,680 about the world. There's a lot you're learning 112 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:16,280 about what it takes to be who I am. 113 00:06:17,280 --> 00:06:21,840 So all of these influences are really, really powerful and it's 114 00:06:21,840 --> 00:06:23,640 and it's making a big difference. 115 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:27,680 One in five parents said that they actually noticed a change 116 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:31,920 in language from their boys in terms of how they talked about 117 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:36,360 women and girls. 70% of teachers saw the rise of excess language 118 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:41,200 in the classroom. So it feels insidious, feels 119 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:46,440 very kind of low threshold in terms of how to search for this. 120 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:48,040 Like we're not sitting on the dark web. 121 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:52,640 You know it's there, it's there and that's what you think. 122 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:56,920 And that's important because I feel like there have been some 123 00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:00,320 people have tried to downplay the influence of the manosphere 124 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:01,960 of like, oh, we can't blame it all on that. 125 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:05,680 Of course, there's many issues as to why we are here and why 126 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:07,360 misogyny and sexism is in the increase. 127 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:11,200 But the manosphere is real and our kids are seeing it. 128 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:13,440 Not all of our kids, but a lot of our kids are seeing it. 129 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:16,400 And it's not always their fault. They're going online that the 130 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:18,320 messages and, and the content is getting fed to them. 131 00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:20,360 They're seeing it and it's influencing how they are 132 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:22,000 thinking. And so I think we all have to 133 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:24,560 like, be aware of what's going on. 134 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:27,600 Even if you think your kid, he's a good kid who isn't looking at 135 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:29,560 that content, they're probably seeing it from their friends. 136 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:32,080 I was talking to a parent the other day and they were saying 137 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:35,600 that the teacher in their school, a woman, was getting the 138 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:37,800 homework given to them by some of the boys. 139 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:40,640 And at the bottom was, oh, miss, can you make me a sandwich at 140 00:07:40,640 --> 00:07:44,320 lunchtime when they handed their when they handed their homework 141 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:46,960 in. And they're seeing just this 142 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:50,520 rise of these young boys that are like 12 years old just 143 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:53,960 disrespecting their female teachers and like asking them to 144 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:55,400 make them lunch and stuff like that. 145 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:58,280 And it's ridiculous. So I think, yeah, we need to be 146 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:01,880 aware of how widespread this is. And I think one thing that the 147 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:04,360 documentary didn't do, which I was personally a bit 148 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:09,840 disappointed by, was talk about the impact this is having on 149 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:13,080 boys and on girls in terms of the increase of violence against 150 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:15,760 women and girls, but also the harmful impacts on boys as well. 151 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:18,880 So can you talk a little bit about the impacts, like how does 152 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:22,440 this manifest in regards to our boys and girls, their behavior, 153 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:25,680 their outcomes? Well, I mean, at the very core, 154 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:28,640 I think, you know, it puts women and girls in in danger. 155 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:32,159 That puts them at risk. And I think they know that. 156 00:08:32,159 --> 00:08:35,200 So they're starting to change their behavior, which is not 157 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:37,720 what we want, because we want everybody to experience the 158 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:40,840 world in, in all of its glory, right? 159 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:44,080 You, you don't want kids to be, to be scared of being 160 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:47,680 themselves. But even boys who don't 161 00:08:47,680 --> 00:08:52,360 necessarily subscribe to this thinking feel pressure because 162 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:55,320 it is very kind of alpha male driven. 163 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:58,560 It is very kind of driven around, You know, I'm, I'm a 164 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:01,160 tough guy. So it's hard to kind of go 165 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:04,200 against that a little bit. So even if they're not into it, 166 00:09:04,560 --> 00:09:07,480 it's difficult to get themselves out of that thinking. 167 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:12,240 So it so it impacts on both, you know, and we see, you know, the 168 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:16,280 violence against women and girls is is at epidemic levels. 169 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:21,000 And we have to recognize that that's coming from somewhere and 170 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:24,640 that has to be challenged in a way that allows for learning. 171 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:28,320 Right. But I think one of the things 172 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:32,120 that they were saying is that there's also an intersection of 173 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:34,360 the degradation, if you know what I mean there. 174 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:39,480 It's not just misogynist, it's often also linked to racism or 175 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:43,240 anti-Semitism. So there's there's deeper kind 176 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:49,600 of concepts coming through what we think of as misogyny that are 177 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:52,920 actually linking to a lot more different types of 178 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:55,320 radicalization. And that's a very slippery 179 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:57,680 slope. I think that I find that really 180 00:09:57,680 --> 00:09:59,960 interesting, that you say girls are adopting their behavior 181 00:09:59,960 --> 00:10:03,560 because they intrinsically know in their DNA that they're 182 00:10:03,560 --> 00:10:09,200 becoming less safe. And we know that girls are more 183 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:13,000 likely now to say that they should do as they are told. 184 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:17,200 You know, if a man tells them to do something they should do as 185 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:22,480 they are told by a man, then perhaps our generation were. 186 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:25,840 And that, you know, I've been wondering where that was coming 187 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:27,920 from. Obviously they are also exposed 188 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:31,640 to this content online where women should know their place 189 00:10:31,680 --> 00:10:36,440 and their places in the home and they should be making babies and 190 00:10:36,440 --> 00:10:41,560 shutting up. But my experience of girls, 191 00:10:41,560 --> 00:10:45,680 younger girls, is that they they behave much more powerfully than 192 00:10:45,680 --> 00:10:49,240 I did when I was younger. Yet the data is showing that 193 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:53,840 actually they're behaving in a much more different way to men 194 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:57,480 and male behaviour. And that's so interesting that 195 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:00,800 you say it could. It comes from a place of knowing 196 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:04,880 deep down that actually you're less safe now in this new world. 197 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:09,320 Yeah, yeah. And I think, I think the, the, 198 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:14,480 the paradox in it is that alongside the monosphere, we 199 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:18,680 also have the rise of kind of the triad wife influencers, you 200 00:11:18,680 --> 00:11:23,040 know, really traditional, you know, female roles. 201 00:11:23,560 --> 00:11:26,600 And, and The funny thing about it is that's, that's kind of 202 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:30,400 what feminism was all about. But they position themselves as 203 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:33,920 anti feminist, whereas the feminist movement is like, no, 204 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:35,400 we should be able to do what we want. 205 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:38,680 If we want to stay at home, we should be able to do that. 206 00:11:38,680 --> 00:11:41,000 If we want to go out and work, we should be able to do, if we 207 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:43,240 want to do a combination, we should. 208 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:47,120 But they're they're both positioned very kind of anti 209 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:49,760 feminism. And then, you know, we've got 210 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:53,160 terminology like toxic masculinity as well. 211 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:58,160 And I think it's a funny one because we kind of skipped over 212 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:00,000 the conversation about masculinity. 213 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:02,600 You know, when you're doing all that work, Elliot, you know, and 214 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:06,080 in your lane in terms of what does masculinity mean? 215 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:08,880 And and that's a positive thing and it's a good thing. 216 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:14,000 Whereas boys are only hearing masculinity linked to toxicity. 217 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:18,480 So they think that the message is that masculinity is toxic. 218 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:22,840 And these monosphere kind of influencers hop onto that idea 219 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:25,080 where it's actually like everything. 220 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:29,080 It's the nuance. Masculinity is not toxic in and 221 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:30,920 of itself. It's a beautiful thing and 222 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:33,320 should be celebrated and nurtured. 223 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:35,640 But when it's toxic, it becomes dangerous. 224 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:38,800 And I think that nuance gets lost in the monosphere and the 225 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:43,480 trod wife kind of spheres. Because we are also seeing a 226 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:47,720 rise in people online being really negative about men and 227 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:51,600 boys as well, right? I mean, IA lot, I see lots of 228 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:56,080 people posting saying things like male loneliness epidemic, 229 00:12:56,080 --> 00:13:00,920 you're not lonely enough or really malicious things about 230 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:03,160 men and boys. And of course boys. 231 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:07,360 Like, I get it from it. If you've been at the hand of 232 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:11,640 masculinity, that is toxic. If you've experienced abuse, 233 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:17,400 harassment, the patriarchy and it's full, then I get why you're 234 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:19,800 angry. But at the same time, for boys 235 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:23,800 that are not responsible for that behaviour, when all they're 236 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:27,720 seeing are women and girls saying horrible things about 237 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:31,880 their sex, inevitably they're going to want to go somewhere 238 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:34,520 where they feel safe and protected and like somebody's 239 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:37,520 standing up for them. And often the monosphere. 240 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:40,680 Yeah. And, and it kind of goes back, I 241 00:13:40,680 --> 00:13:44,400 think to obviously, you know, I'm not, I'm not an expert in 242 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:48,400 algorithms, but it's just my reflection is that it's, it's 243 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:52,440 almost the same kind of mechanism at play in terms of 244 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:55,720 the more extreme I am, the more likes I'm going to get. 245 00:13:56,520 --> 00:14:00,640 So rather than it being a nuanced conversation about, you 246 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:03,920 know, the roles of men and women have changed, you know, in a 247 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:07,880 relatively short period of time. And how do we figure that out 248 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:10,000 together? How do we figure out, you know, 249 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:13,640 who we are in relationship to each other and how do we work so 250 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:15,280 that we can get the most out of each other? 251 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:16,920 Nobody's going to click on that link. 252 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:20,440 Like nobody cares, right? They want to hear somebody be 253 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:25,120 super extreme because that raises a conversation that's 254 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:27,920 like rage baiting almost, you know, that people are doing. 255 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:32,600 And, and the disconcerting thing is that is that young people 256 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:37,920 maybe who spend a lot of time online think that that's real 257 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:42,240 and think that that's a real conversation or is actually, no, 258 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:44,800 we're, we're, we're fishing for likes here. 259 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:46,920 Yeah. And I think that the kind of 260 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:49,240 positive content is never going to compete because. 261 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:51,520 No. It doesn't get the clicks right, 262 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:53,680 it's not sensational, it's not negative, it doesn't make 263 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:55,680 headlines, it can't compete. So I think it needs to be 264 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:59,120 embedded in how we do things in regards to the schooling system 265 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:02,560 and family and more of a day-to-day real life setting. 266 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:04,800 I think it's also important, like, you know, we've spoken 267 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:06,600 about the finance against women and girls and the impacts on 268 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,720 girls, but also to point out this is bad for boys as well. 269 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:11,960 Now they're being sold a dream here. 270 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:14,480 This is not reality. It's not going to work out very 271 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:16,640 well for you. This is not success. 272 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:19,480 All the things they're saying are is it's a lie, basically. 273 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:23,080 And November have pointed out from their research that a lot 274 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:25,680 of the boys that engage with this content, they actually have 275 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:28,960 worse mental health outcomes over time, higher psychological 276 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:34,200 distress, higher steroid use, higher gambling type behaviors, 277 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:37,480 like has a negative impact on these boys, Like they are the 278 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:39,840 victims, you know, in this as as well. 279 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:42,800 So it doesn't work for for any of our young people. 280 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:47,880 So let's talk a little bit about what you think are the signs of 281 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:51,800 a child who is like vulnerable. I think every child is probably 282 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:56,280 vulnerable, but are there particular young boys that you 283 00:15:56,280 --> 00:16:00,440 see through NSPCC that come to a particular traits that you say, 284 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:03,720 OK, that may be a particularly vulnerable person that may be a 285 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:07,520 parent needs to needs to stay stay even closer to. 286 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:11,520 I think that, yeah. And what we do believe that we 287 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:15,240 believe that children are, are vulnerable just because they're 288 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:18,480 they're children and they kind of haven't had the experiences 289 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:20,600 in life that a lot of us as adults have had. 290 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:23,040 And that's why we have a responsibility to keep them safe 291 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:25,440 and create safe environments for them. 292 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:27,920 But unfortunately, we know that that doesn't always happen. 293 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:31,640 There are children who are experiencing abuse, There's 294 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:35,720 children who are experiencing loneliness. 295 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:39,160 There's there's kids who are out there, you know, as a very 296 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:43,440 natural part of being a teenager is trying to figure out who I 297 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:45,560 am, You know, what do I like to wear? 298 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:47,920 What music do I like to, to listen to? 299 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:51,600 All of those things are actually very natural parts of growing 300 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:53,800 up. But if you have a child who's 301 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:57,600 experienced kind of adverse childhood experiences like abuse 302 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:01,960 or neglect or, or anything like that, that sense of loneliness 303 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:06,680 and ability to grab an identity becomes even more difficult. 304 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:10,920 And that's exactly where these people then fall in, because 305 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:15,480 this kids potentially not having anyone give them a good example. 306 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:19,160 There's nobody in their life who kind of cares what they're 307 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:21,520 doing. There's nobody who's talking to 308 00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:23,760 them about, you know, what's going on for you. 309 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:25,440 How are you feeling? How are you experiencing the 310 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:27,119 world? Obviously, we wouldn't talk to 311 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:30,600 kids like that, but literally speaking that level of interest, 312 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:34,800 there's a lot of young people walking around who don't really 313 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:37,640 have that. And I think I said it the last 314 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:39,760 time, you know, that I was on here as well. 315 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:44,240 If, if we don't talk to children and young people about some of 316 00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:47,800 these issues, the Internet will. Yeah. 317 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:53,240 And so we have to be there as almost a counterbalance, you 318 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:54,880 know, So I hear what you're saying. 319 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:57,400 What are you looking at? What does that mean to you? 320 00:17:58,120 --> 00:18:00,760 You know, how are you interpreting that in terms of 321 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:02,640 your relationships towards other people? 322 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:06,000 They're really complex questions that we have to educate 323 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:11,280 ourselves to be able to ask kids because that's not necessarily 324 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:15,800 that we were raised. I mean, I'm a kid of the 70s. 325 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:17,960 Do you remember, you're like, go outside. 326 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:21,200 You cannot come back home because once you were home, that 327 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:23,160 was it. You couldn't go outside again, 328 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:25,160 right? It's just it's not how we grew. 329 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:26,080 Up. Good old days. 330 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:29,840 They were the good days. Can we go back please? 331 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:32,760 And nobody could take a picture of you doing anything goofy. 332 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:35,240 Like, if you weren't there, it never happened. 333 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:38,840 There's a lot there that it's not just, you know, children 334 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:43,280 who've been been born into this online world. 335 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:47,720 And a lot of us have had to adjust to the online world, but 336 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:51,320 ultimately, just as it would have been our responsibility to 337 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:54,360 make sure that our kids, that we told our kids, don't go down to 338 00:18:54,360 --> 00:18:55,960 that neighborhood. Everybody knows that 339 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:58,720 neighborhood is bad news, right? That's how we grew up. 340 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:02,400 Yet we're not doing that with kids because we think you're 341 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:05,840 safe because you're upstairs in your room, but you're not. 342 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:08,600 You're hanging around in the neighborhood you should not be 343 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:11,360 in. Yeah, I struggle with this. 344 00:19:11,360 --> 00:19:14,280 I've got a three-year old and a 1010 year old and I found with 345 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:18,080 my 10 year old, over the last year I've had to just be super 346 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:21,440 honest about the world. And part of it pains me because 347 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:23,160 I want it. I would have to be innocent. 348 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:26,080 I want to just be a kid and just run around the field of 349 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:28,960 daffodils, live this ideal life they want. 350 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:33,000 You to frolic. Yeah, just like, you know, enjoy 351 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:35,760 yourself, just be innocent. But I know that's not good 352 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:37,560 enough. That's not good enough because 353 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:41,080 she needs to learn how to treat other people first and foremost, 354 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:45,000 how to protect herself. But also now we have this new 355 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:48,080 thing, smartphones and social media that is giving her and 356 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:51,400 we'll be giving her through means, friendships, phones, etc, 357 00:19:52,120 --> 00:19:55,360 content that is harmful. And so I need to be and my wife, 358 00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:58,280 we need to be, as you say, another voice. 359 00:19:58,360 --> 00:20:01,360 That's hard though for parents. It's not like it's tricky, 360 00:20:01,360 --> 00:20:02,560 right? It's against that mindset of 361 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:04,800 I've got a nine year old, I have to have a conversation about 362 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:08,680 sexism and misogyny and racism and all these big adult topics. 363 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:13,320 Like how do how do parents get into the mind frame of doing 364 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:16,600 that when you weren't you weren't used to that from 365 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:19,560 growing up yourself? I think a lot of it is 366 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:22,680 challenging ideas, right? I'll give you an example. 367 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:26,600 So my daughter, I think she was like 4 and she came out of 368 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:30,760 school and she was like, hi, this boy was mean to me. 369 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:33,000 And I was like, which boy? Where's his parents? 370 00:20:33,120 --> 00:20:36,760 Let's have a conversation. But the the teacher was like, 371 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:40,400 oh, well, you know, when a boy is mean to you, it just means he 372 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:43,680 likes you. And I just thought, we're still 373 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:49,240 doing this. I'm sorry and we not do this. 374 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:54,200 So it's things like that that you know, in in a very kind of 375 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:58,360 age appropriate way, you know, without using those big words 376 00:20:58,360 --> 00:21:01,640 that might be scary. You know, it's like you can go 377 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:04,720 down to your 4 year old, but no baby, if somebody hurts you, 378 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:09,160 that is bad, that is always bad and people who hurt you don't 379 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:10,240 love you. All right. 380 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:14,120 So that's kind of the basis because we want that to be the 381 00:21:14,120 --> 00:21:17,600 foundation so that if they're ever in a situation or somebody 382 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:22,360 hurts them, they know this is bad, this is not supposed to be 383 00:21:22,360 --> 00:21:24,280 happening. Talk about it, talk to somebody 384 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:25,760 about it. And that kind of leads me to 385 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:27,880 that next thing. I worked as a child line 386 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:31,000 supervisor for many years. And what I found really 387 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:35,240 interesting was that a lot of kids were would say, I love my 388 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:38,800 parents, they're amazing parents, but I can't talk to 389 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,040 them about what's going on for me, right? 390 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:43,680 And we would be like, help me understand that. 391 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:46,600 What is that about? And they'd say, because they 392 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:49,840 don't have any problems. And I was like, for sure, your 393 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:53,560 parents have problems. But again, it's that old 394 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:56,080 fashioned thinking, right? Of, you know, we don't talk 395 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:57,880 about issues in front of our kids. 396 00:21:58,360 --> 00:22:00,560 And again, I would challenge that gently. 397 00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:03,680 I would kind of and obviously age appropriate talk to your 398 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:04,960 kids. Like something happened to me 399 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:07,040 and work and somebody said something to me that I didn't 400 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:09,240 really like. Like what, Like what do you 401 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:11,360 think? You know, you can be doing 402 00:22:11,360 --> 00:22:14,800 something and engage them and, and say, well, what what are 403 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:16,840 your thoughts about that? You know, what do you think I 404 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:20,480 should do? Because it creates A framework 405 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:23,040 for a dialogue that we have in this house. 406 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:27,440 If there's something that I'm not too sure of, it's normal for 407 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:29,320 us to go. Why do you hear this? 408 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:32,520 That happened to me today. That's what we're trying to 409 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,560 create. That's great advice because my 410 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:39,280 eldest loves it when I go to her with a problem she's like my 411 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:44,680 daddy's asking for my opinion like she she feels so empowered 412 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,520 and I get what you're saying then it will help her to do the 413 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:50,440 same with me as well. Great advice. 414 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:56,800 So if a if a parent suspects their child is watching the 415 00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:00,160 manosphere, they're looking at these guys consuming the 416 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:02,640 content, what should they do about it? 417 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:04,520 What's the conversation I should be having? 418 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:07,040 I think it starts before even having the conversation. 419 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:10,840 I think it starts with educating yourself because what I found 420 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:14,080 whenever I watched the documentary was that there was a 421 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:17,560 lot of language being used and I had no idea what it meant. 422 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:20,240 I had no idea what it meant, right? 423 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:23,400 So I had to kind of start looking up some of this 424 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,520 terminology. And as I was doing it, I was 425 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:31,520 kind of like, is this the flag? Is this what we're looking for 426 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:33,400 as parents? Because I don't know about you, 427 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:35,840 but you ever have that when you're having a conversation 428 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:37,920 with your kid and they're like using language, you're like. 429 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:43,040 I can't even remember what you said, but I was like, what? 430 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:46,480 What were you talking about? It was a word that you used for 431 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:47,160 a lie. I. 432 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:48,840 Can't even remember the. Words. 433 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:53,120 I was like, what does that mean? He was like her mum, lie and 434 00:23:53,120 --> 00:23:56,320 it's always meant a lie. I. 435 00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:59,920 Think it has but OK go to school all. 436 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:02,200 Right, I'll take your word for it. 437 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:06,040 So, so I, I came up with a couple, right? 438 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:08,560 So I'm going to see if you guys know because I had no idea. 439 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:11,200 Is this a game? Is this a game with the game? 440 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:12,640 Right. OK, we're going to play games. 441 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:13,920 So set up the game what we're doing here. 442 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,080 So you're going to ask. Us a few a few questions kind of 443 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:19,320 looked up some words both that were used in the documentary 444 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:22,560 because I had no idea what they were and I think this was one of 445 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:25,200 the ones that that was used a lot that I literally had to like 446 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:29,440 look up on my phone. So I'm going to see if you guys 447 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:33,760 know right. So what does MOG mean? 448 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:36,320 I was the word he used this morning. 449 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:42,000 What was it? It means a lie, he told me. 450 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:46,400 It means you lying. It means to outshine someone 451 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:50,240 physically. So if you're mogging someone, it 452 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:53,640 means that like, you're looking better than them, so you're 453 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:55,920 making them look ugly because you look so good. 454 00:24:56,360 --> 00:24:58,880 Wow, I had no idea what that meant. 455 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:03,240 The other one that I found was looks maxing, yeah. 456 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:07,800 I've heard of that. That's something about like from 457 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:09,760 my understanding, it's like making the roast out of your 458 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:12,680 looks, right? Like it's just because what you 459 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:17,080 know, they do the like hit their their jawline to make it tight. 460 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:18,600 It's like looks. Maxing. 461 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:20,880 That's mewing. Isn't that when you do that? 462 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:24,440 Yeah. And now, is that about having a 463 00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:28,600 chiseled jewel Mewing? Yes, Maxing is, yeah. 464 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:33,600 So looks maxing is all about like making the most of your 465 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:37,360 attributes by either going to the gym, going to, you know, 466 00:25:37,360 --> 00:25:41,800 eating healthy, you know, even sleep marks maxing, you know, we 467 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,400 knew. But again, it shows how easy it 468 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:48,960 is to kind of go into that, that, yeah, that atmosphere 469 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:51,320 because like, I'm not sleeping too well. 470 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:54,080 So now I'm looking for tips and all of a sudden now I'm talking 471 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:58,320 about looks Max that it's so quick the loop. 472 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:00,560 Get my kids to go to bed on time. 473 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,160 I just call it sleep Max and then they might go. 474 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:04,840 That's you. I'm sleep maxing. 475 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:09,520 All my kids are out cold 8:00. Come on kids, you need to wait, 476 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:11,280 Max. I feel like I start sleep Max in 477 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:12,440 nice guys start going to bed early. 478 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,040 What was the other one he used? Oh yes. 479 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:19,520 So you know how they they talk about the red pill and the blue 480 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:21,280 pill? I wasn't sure. 481 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,320 Even though I love the Matrix, totally into it, love it. 482 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:27,280 I couldn't remember. But there's also a black pill. 483 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:32,000 Yeah. So the red pill, right, is the 484 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:35,000 one I think that Neo is given in the movie. 485 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:38,360 And that's where you adopt the belief that society hides the 486 00:26:38,360 --> 00:26:43,000 truth from you, right? And then the blue pill is that 487 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,800 you remain unaware. Yeah, we're blue pills, right? 488 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:53,680 Yes, 100% obviously so. And then the black pill is that 489 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:57,080 attractiveness is biologically fixed. 490 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:01,680 So if you're inferior, you're just going to be inferior. 491 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:03,680 That's it. There's nothing you can do about 492 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:05,200 it. Interesting. 493 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:08,640 I think that different. I knew that red pill meant that 494 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:10,720 you could see. You can see the world for what 495 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:14,360 it really is. Yeah, you are like you have the 496 00:27:14,360 --> 00:27:19,440 insight and you you are not pretending anymore. 497 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:23,400 And this is you finally had the blindfold lifted and can see 498 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:26,120 everything as it is. I didn't realize Black pilled 499 00:27:26,120 --> 00:27:30,840 was about, but there's the hierarchy and you can't break 500 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:34,320 out of that hierarchy. Yeah, and that goes into the in 501 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:38,640 cell thing, right? The involuntary celibate, super, 502 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:40,880 super dangerous and very, very dark. 503 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:44,760 But one of the things that I found as well in it is, is that 504 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:48,720 concept of the because I think at one point, what did he called 505 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:54,600 him a soy boy. He called boy a soy boy. 506 00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:59,080 And I was like, obviously it's not a good thing, but what does 507 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:03,200 it mean? So it is a feminized insult used 508 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:05,560 to mock men who are perceived as wheat. 509 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:07,360 Because like, you wouldn't eat or eat meat. 510 00:28:07,360 --> 00:28:10,640 You're like a vegan, so therefore you like he. 511 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:14,360 Hadn't made that link. Sorry, boys, but yeah, yeah. 512 00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:20,440 So, yeah, so it's so interesting because there was so much 513 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:25,320 language that they used within that that atmosphere. 514 00:28:25,360 --> 00:28:29,440 And one of the the men in the documentary was also talking 515 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:32,520 about that concept of alpha and beta, right? 516 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:34,840 And the alpha. And it's really interesting 517 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:40,800 because I am a little bit of an animal Kingdom nerd and I love 518 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:43,480 wolves. And I was like, I thought that 519 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:45,840 wasn't like a thing. So again, I dug a little bit 520 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:48,400 deeper into that. And, and the whole concept of 521 00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,920 the alpha and the beta came from a research study that was done 522 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:55,480 in like, the the 70s, yeah, 1970. 523 00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:59,760 But they observed wolves in captivity and saw that the 524 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:02,760 wolves that were in captivity would fight for dominance. 525 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:08,760 And he based his theory on that and then realized his mistake 526 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:13,160 and then spent the rest of his career trying to say there is no 527 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:18,000 such thing as alpha and beta because wolves are just led by 528 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,320 elders. So the elders teach the children 529 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:25,560 where to find the food, how to hunt, and they lead and really 530 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:29,600 interestingly as well that the strongest members of the pack 531 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,960 are usually at the back because they're kind of, you know, 532 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:36,240 making sure that that they're safe, that the whole pack is 533 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,240 safe. And that's where you lead from, 534 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:42,200 which kind of again, goes against this whole mythology 535 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:46,480 around the alpha and beta concept, which which has been 536 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:50,440 disproven literally since the 70s, but we're still holding on 537 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:52,800 to it. So it's it's all those kind of 538 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:58,120 thought patterns that unfortunately we as parents now 539 00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:02,080 have to start breaking down and saying that's that's not 540 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:07,400 actually right. Means to talk to HP Ticky talkie 541 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:09,120 or whatever his name is. What's his name? 542 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:11,480 HP Ticky. We'll keep it as that. 543 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:15,720 Let's keep it as HP. I like that that's don't even 544 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:17,360 say your name correctly. That's how much we don't even 545 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:19,880 like you say, yeah, yeah, it does talk to the whole this is a 546 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:21,440 lie. This is a this is this 547 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,360 fabricated nonsense. And it's it's not reality. 548 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:28,040 OK, so let's let's a parent, they've got a 12 year old boy 549 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:32,080 watching this content. They're really worried. 550 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:36,520 They are trying to have conversations about positive 551 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,360 masculinity and they're trying to bring in in role models into 552 00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:42,960 the family and they're they're trying to counteract all the 553 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:45,280 negativity they're seeing online, but it's maybe not 554 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:48,920 working. Actually, their kids still 555 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:52,480 saying sexiest things around the dinner table or their kid is 556 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,080 still still watching this stuff and he goes to his friend's 557 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:56,480 house. Like they're still worried. 558 00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:58,320 What? What should a parent do at that 559 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:01,080 point? This is one of the hardest 560 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:04,560 things, I think that we learn as parents is that you have to 561 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,760 enforce rules consistently all the time, every time. 562 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:12,160 And that's really hard because half the time we're exhausted 563 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:15,160 and we've got I want to buy the things and we go. 564 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,200 But it's about how do we talk to each other? 565 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:20,160 How do we engage with each other? 566 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:26,560 How do we relate to one another? And sometimes that is about 567 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:31,200 using your authority as a parent to start to restrict certain 568 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,680 things because they need that. And I know what kind of feels a 569 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,800 little bit uncomfortable because we don't want to be those kind 570 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,720 of parents that, you know, you're here to be seen and not 571 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:42,440 heard type thing. You know, we don't want to go to 572 00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:45,360 that authoritarian, but they do need guidance. 573 00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:49,480 They do need that. So maybe it is about those 574 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:52,680 friends are not a good influence on you, so we're going to try 575 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:57,480 and get you into something else. That phone, you're not using it 576 00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:01,640 according to the rules of the home you're visiting, sites that 577 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:04,320 you're not allowed to visit, so your phone gets taken off you. 578 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:08,720 The difficulty is that of course the child is going to freak out 579 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:13,240 and hate you and potentially you can say that to face, but it is 580 00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:19,120 about recognizing that of course they are testing boundaries and 581 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:22,240 we forget that. I think sometimes we think about 582 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:26,160 the terrible twos and we take it for granted that the terrible 583 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:30,480 twos are just going to happen. But when teenagers get into like 584 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:34,280 after that puberty thing, their brain chemistry is changing. 585 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,520 They're out there to test boundaries all the time. 586 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:41,560 So I would say, you know how protective and patient you tried 587 00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:44,160 to be with them when they were two and they're terrible twos. 588 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,400 That's exactly the input that they need when they're a bit 589 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:49,440 older. And we forget that sometimes 590 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:52,960 because we think you're big now, you're going to big school. 591 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,480 And it's like, no, you're not. No, you're not. 592 00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:59,440 Emotionally, psychologically, physically, your brain 593 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:03,400 chemistry, you're not. You need that guidance from 594 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:07,920 someone to say that's not OK and we can have that conversation 595 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:11,640 about it, but if that's not going anywhere, then we're going 596 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:13,120 to have some sanctions around that. 597 00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:17,800 And I know that that's super, super uncomfortable, but it's 598 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:21,200 better in the long run for a child to know you are my safe 599 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:23,560 landing space. Because if you need to make a 600 00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:26,520 decision for my best interests, you're going to do it. 601 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:29,800 I love this part of the conversation because I feel, I 602 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:34,440 feel like we have spoken so much about gentle parenting, you 603 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:38,040 know, as a society in England over the last years in, in the 604 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:40,400 UK. And when I think back about my 605 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:42,840 parenting, how I was parenting, it was so different. 606 00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,160 A little bit of gentle parenting was in there sometimes, but 607 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,400 there was more like, you know, just do what I say and, and 608 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:51,200 that's it. And who's the boss. 609 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:54,520 And when I think about my as teenage years between maybe 14 610 00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:57,720 and 18, I wouldn't be where I was without that. 611 00:33:57,720 --> 00:33:59,960 I needed that. And if my parents were gentle 612 00:33:59,960 --> 00:34:02,560 and let me do whatever I wanted to do, I would have got in 613 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:04,560 trouble. And of course, at the time, I 614 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,160 probably would have wanted them to just let me do what I wanted 615 00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:10,320 to do because I thought at the time I was, you know, the boss 616 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:11,840 and I knew what I was doing. But I didn't. 617 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:13,320 I was a kid. I didn't know what was. 618 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:16,960 Best for you and I think. Sometimes we're scared to just 619 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:20,760 be parents and scared for our kids not to like us and to put 620 00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:22,480 our foot down and have authority. 621 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:26,400 I think we're actually discouraged from doing that, you 622 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:28,400 know? Yeah, and people judge you, 623 00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:31,040 don't they? Yeah, well, I mean, you know, I 624 00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:33,800 remember the the best advice that I ever got when I was 625 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,560 wearing my children when they were little was that other 626 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:40,320 people will judge you for how you parent, but they don't have 627 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,320 to live with the consequences of you not parenting your child in 628 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:45,000 that moment. Right. 629 00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:48,000 So I had, you know, she's going to love me for this. 630 00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:52,920 I had a little 2 year old who literally demanded ice cream for 631 00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,239 breakfast. And when obviously the answer 632 00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:59,640 was no, we would have massive screaming meltdowns. 633 00:35:00,240 --> 00:35:02,320 And I needed to not engage with that. 634 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:05,960 So I'm standing there looking like a crazy person, letting my 635 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:08,640 child cry. But she needed to learn that 636 00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:10,760 that's not going to work. You're not going to get my 637 00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:12,800 attention this way. Yeah. 638 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:14,560 And I have to do it there and then. 639 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:16,560 Yeah, and we're not talking about, we're not talking about 640 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:17,840 beating the kids and stuff like that, right? 641 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:22,240 We're just talking about putting in boundaries around like you 642 00:35:22,240 --> 00:35:25,560 can't take your phone to bed, for example, No, or you're not 643 00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:28,920 going to get TikTok at 12 years old, like things like that. 644 00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:30,560 But. These are the sort of things we 645 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:31,160 should be. Comfortable. 646 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:33,240 I hate you. And we're slamming doors and 647 00:35:33,240 --> 00:35:37,240 it's like, OK, all right, I'm the worst. 648 00:35:37,720 --> 00:35:40,400 I'll take it. I'll take it. 649 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:42,120 Don't take it. I'm the worst in the world. 650 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:44,320 OK. And so, so let's let's build on 651 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:47,160 that then. So what else, what else should 652 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:49,200 parents be doing once they've done that? 653 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:53,160 OK, now we are restricting and authority, the conversations 654 00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:55,320 continue. Is there anything else that you 655 00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:57,200 can you can give parents that are listening? 656 00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:01,640 I guess, you know, lead by example, kids. 657 00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:06,280 Kids learn more by what they see happening than what you tell 658 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:08,640 them. So if they see you behave in a 659 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:11,240 certain way or see you talk in a certain way, they're going to 660 00:36:11,240 --> 00:36:16,240 pick up on that and actually promote healthy masculinity 661 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:19,720 because there is a lot of content online as well that 662 00:36:19,720 --> 00:36:22,520 promotes healthy masculinity. You know, the stuff that you're 663 00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:24,400 doing. And we've got like dope black 664 00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:30,960 dads, you know, there is a lot of really positive masculinity 665 00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:33,200 out there. So again, when I'm talking about 666 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:36,040 doing a little bit of research, it's about finding those 667 00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:39,120 websites and talking to your child about maybe maybe look at 668 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:44,240 this instead, maybe we can learn from this instead and then 669 00:36:44,240 --> 00:36:47,200 follow through with that. You know, are there activities 670 00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:50,080 that that these people are doing that you might want to get into? 671 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:52,880 You know, whether it be footballers, whether it be, you 672 00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:56,880 know, whatever sport they might be interested in or, or authors 673 00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,880 or artists, what whatever they're kind of interested in, 674 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:04,320 be your child's algorithm. I guess, you know, don't rely on 675 00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:05,840 that. The internet's algorithm. 676 00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:09,240 You be the child's algorithm to say this is the kind of content 677 00:37:09,240 --> 00:37:12,000 I want you to watch and learn from. 678 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:14,520 November, I think are doing a project on this. 679 00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:18,920 They're looking for creators who are going to do videos and 680 00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:21,560 content that is about positive masculinity. 681 00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:24,080 I'm not sure how far down the road they are with it, but I 682 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:27,760 know that they are investing in that and creators that do 683 00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:30,600 promote really positive masculinity. 684 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:34,920 And Jordan Stephenson is always somebody that I try and 685 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:37,080 encourage. I want my kids to watch because 686 00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:41,240 I think he has this knack of like he's accessible to kids. 687 00:37:41,240 --> 00:37:45,320 He uses accessible language. He's quite cool and interesting. 688 00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:51,000 And yet everything he says is so insightful and thoughtful and 689 00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:55,440 positive, you know, positive about masculinity and anti 690 00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:59,440 sexist. So yeah, he's always somebody I 691 00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:02,760 kind of point to as he's a good guy. 692 00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:06,640 Watch him, yeah. Thank you so much for this, it's 693 00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:10,080 been incredible. How can parents access to NSPCC? 694 00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:12,280 What resources support do you offer? 695 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:16,720 So we have loads of resources around Internet safety, but also 696 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,600 a misogyny master class that you can access on NSPCC learning. 697 00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:23,560 Just, you know, use whatever search engine you're using it 698 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:26,280 and stick that in there. We also, as I was saying 699 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:30,040 earlier, so we've done a whole bunch of webinars in partnership 700 00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:32,840 with Vodafone and they're all free. 701 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:39,040 They are geared mostly towards education professionals, but you 702 00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:42,680 can get a lot out of them in terms of how to work with young 703 00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:45,640 people, but also understanding some of the sense around digital 704 00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:49,280 footprints, gaming, online gambling, all those kind of 705 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:51,800 topics. Are there kind of the end bits 706 00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:54,920 of the webinars? Go more into what you can do as 707 00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:58,840 a school, but as a parent it could be really, really useful 708 00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:00,360 for you to watch as well. Amazing. 709 00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:02,400 We'll put all the links in the show notes, so check them out 710 00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:04,360 there. So let's end with some hope. 711 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:08,080 You know, it's been a a great conversation, but obviously a 712 00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:10,400 difficult one, right? And we're all worried a little 713 00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:12,760 bit stressed about this. So let's end with some hope. 714 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:14,240 Give us some hope. What? 715 00:39:14,240 --> 00:39:16,560 What, What are you seeing that helps you feel like this is 716 00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:18,000 going to get better in the future? 717 00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:23,160 I think we see the Internet sometimes as an enemy and A and 718 00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:26,520 a danger. But we created the Internet, 719 00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:28,280 right? Society created the Internet. 720 00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:34,080 So we have the power as well to create kind of the antidote to a 721 00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:38,120 lot of this, whether that be, you know, in our personal 722 00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:40,960 relationships with children and young people in terms of how we 723 00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:44,440 talk to them, how we support them, how we teach and guide 724 00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:48,360 them and nurture their spirit. But also at what we point them 725 00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:53,920 to in terms of good inputs from positive role models around the 726 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:56,840 world. And I think young people are 727 00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:00,480 really resilient, they're really smart. 728 00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:05,200 They're so rooted in a lot of ways in goodness and fairness. 729 00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:08,560 And, you know, they're changing the landscape of of the working 730 00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:12,200 world in terms of their expectations. 731 00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:15,960 Of how they're treated. So I think there's so much to be 732 00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:19,600 said for how young people of today are going to be changing 733 00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:22,280 the world. I think we can't just let them 734 00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:24,920 do that on their own and figuring it out on their own. 735 00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:28,600 And they think they need us to support them and help them and 736 00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:32,000 be role models for them in that process. 737 00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:35,280 Beautiful, poetic, some would say. 738 00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:40,000 Anika, our first returner, second time around. 739 00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:43,800 Thanks for coming back. My pleasure and my joy. 740 00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:46,120 Thank you so much. It was so great to see you guys 741 00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:47,880 again. Thank you so much. 742 00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:49,480 Thank you. See you everyone.