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Hello everybody, this is our 4th
episode and today we're going to

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do a really special episode that
we didn't expect to be doing on 

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Adolescence, the Netflix series 
Adolescence. 

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Now listen, if you haven't seen 
this series, I would probably 

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suggest watching it before you 
listen to this because there 

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will be some spoiler alerts. 
Both Elliot and I have watched 

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it and lots and lots of people 
have watched it and it's been 

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talked about all over the place.
But we really wanted to look at 

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the themes of this series, to 
talk about how it made us feel 

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and what we were worried about 
and what we took from the 

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series, but also to talk to some
experts. 

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So we've got a child 
psychologist coming up, we've 

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got an expert in online safety 
for kids, and we're going to 

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talk to a parent whose son 
accessed some harmful content 

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online and what happened. 
But firstly, Elliot, I really 

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want to know what you thought 
about the series of what were 

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the key things that you took 
from adolescence? 

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I feel like we want to take a 
collective breath. 

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I don't think I've ever seen a 
short series programme capture 

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the nation quite like 
adolescence has, and for me, 

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it's really important. 
It was a hard, tough watch. 

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It's very raw, it's very 
emotional, but I think it's 

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necessary because it has finally
platformed some issues that you 

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know, have been bubbling, people
have been talking about for 

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years. 
It's an essential watch. 

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If you haven't watched it yet, 
what are you doing? 

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Go and watch it now. 
Like pause the podcast. 

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Go and watch it now because you 
need to watch this program 

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regardless of whether you are a 
parent or a boy or not. 

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If you're feeling raw and low, 
maybe just leave. 

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Leave it 24 hours and then watch
it because brace yourself. 

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What were your raw feelings 
after you've finished? 

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Talk us through your journey 
generally of consuming 

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adolescence. 
So the first episode when I'd 

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finished, my partner said I'm 
not watching anymore, this is 

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trauma porn. 
And I got what he was saying 

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because I cried all the way 
through it and at the end of it 

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I just felt hollow. 
We obviously have two boys and 

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so as it's about a boy, it felt 
feels very personal and very 

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raw. 
I didn't feel like that after 

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the other episodes, and we're 
obviously persevered and got 

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through the rest of them. 
And with each episode, I felt 

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like they took things from a 
slightly different angle so you 

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could look at things in the 
round, which I thought was 

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really helpful. 
One of the key things for me 

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that I just took from almost 
every episode was that there 

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were men. 
The majority of characters are 

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men. 
It's written by a man, it's 

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produced by a man, but it's 
essentially about violence 

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against women and girls. 
And I loved that about it 

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because finally it felt like 
we've got something here that's 

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huge and it's men talking about 
this issue and it's not women 

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driving the narrative that that 
to me felt like a real moment to

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celebrate. 
But of course, by the end of it,

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I felt deflated and hopeless, if
I'm honest. 

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And I'm not sure that that is 
helpful. 

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Do you think it's on purpose? 
Do you think they wanted you to 

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feel like that at the end? 
I feel like they're asking a big

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question and they don't know the
answer and they want to say that

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this, they don't want to lay the
blame at anybody's door, which I

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really like about it as well. 
They're saying this is a 

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problem, We all need to be 
involved in the solution. 

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We don't know what the answers 
are. 

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And so inevitably it's going to 
leave you feeling a bit confused

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and hopeless because you want 
solutions, right? 

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You want to go, right, That's 
what we need to do or, OK, you 

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know, this is all going to work 
out in the end and neither of 

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those things are the case. 
I quite liked the fact that they

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didn't give us solutions. 
I like. 

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I quite like the fact there 
wasn't a oh, and now do ABC and 

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you will fix the problem. 
It it wasn't the Hollywood here 

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you go ending. 
This is how you fix the problem 

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in your own life. 
It was we need to, as a society,

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have a really important 
conversation that we haven't 

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been having. 
And how do we hit you with the 

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most powerful narrative and 
display of that to leave you 

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thinking, shit, I need to learn 
more. 

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The important thing is where 
people then go to learn more. 

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I hope our podcast is part of 
helping people to find some 

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healthy solutions. 
I also want to shout out some of

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the incredible organizations 
that have been doing this work 

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for years. 
Beyond Equality and Dan 

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Guinness, future men who are 
future guests on the podcast, 

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Alex Holmes, father to father 
Courtney Brown. 

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There are so many, the Men and 
Boys coalition, you know, and I 

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think for anyone listening, if 
you are thinking about where to 

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go, there are people out here 
that have been working with boys

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on the ground. 
And I hope that off the back of 

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this program, those companies 
get more support and people go 

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to them to find out, OK, what 
can I do and what's going on on 

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the ground in my local area as 
well. 

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Yeah, here, here. 
And of course, Movember, we, we 

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love and are doing great work in
this space. 

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My friend Christine Armstrong 
sent me a message actually last 

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night about adolescence, and I'd
love to read it out, she said. 

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For me, the point is in the 
questions it raises. 

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How do we raise our kids in a 
world where strangers can 

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communicate with them without 
our knowledge? 

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We can knock on the doors. 
We can't force them to answer. 

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We don't even understand half of
how they communicate. 

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You know, you see on the program
the emojis that they're using. 

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And no, none of the adults have 
a clue what any of them mean. 

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I didn't have a clue what any of
them meant. 

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How do we keep kids safe and 
protect them? 

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What does that even look like? 
How do we know if we're doing 

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it? 
How does trauma pass between 

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generations and how do we break 
that connection? 

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How do we balance the needs to 
make a living and provide for 

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the needs of our kids without 
causing causing harm? 

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So like the dad says on there 
that he gave a PC to his son 

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because he wanted his son to 
have something that he didn't 

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have. 
Who is responsible when kids do 

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struggle? 
Is it the parents or school or 

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social media who can even 
influence this mix? 

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How do we respond when things go
wrong? 

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The boy is a child, he has a 
bear in his bed and he is a 

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confused victim too. 
But if it was my child that he 

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hurt, I wouldn't feel that. 
I would feel no sympathy for him

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whatsoever. 
So what is the correct response?

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So it's there's so many 
questions that this leverages 

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and so so few answers. 
But on Christine, first of all, 

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that was poetic. 
Thank you, Christine. 

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There are so many questions and 
I think that's not a bad thing, 

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you know, I think it's the 
reality. 

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So us having some grasp of the 
question should we should be 

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asking ourselves is a is a 
really good thing. 

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And throughout the the program, 
there's a little things that 

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stood out to me so much that I 
think like I really want to 

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reflect on and obviously the 
overall storyline and the facts 

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that we saw this from the 
perpetrators perspective. 

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Now I think we've seen programs 
from the victims perspective and

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that they're really good and we 
obviously we need more of those.

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But they were really brave in 
telling the story from the 

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perspective of the boy. 
And that last scene around what 

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happens when this happens? 
How do the family pick 

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themselves up? 
How does it impact everybody 

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else? 
And that scene at the end when 

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Stephen Graham's crying into the
pillow. 

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And I'm getting goosebumps now 
even thinking about it. 

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He's crying into the pillow and 
he's thinking about what he has 

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or hasn't done, how he's 
contributed. 

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He's thinking about how his 
daughter's going to go to 

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school. 
His daughter said, I'm known as 

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Jamie's sister now. 
He's thinking about his work, 

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his plumbing business. 
He's thinking about his wife. 

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He's thinking about his 
community, how he is able to 

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keep this together now being the
dad of a boy that has killed 

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someone at 13 years old. 
And it was some of the most 

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powerful TV I've ever I've ever 
seen. 

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A couple of points that I think 
I I saw that really stood out to

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me. 
There was the scene in the in 

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the school, the chaotic school 
for anyone that is thinking 

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about secondary schools for 
their children. 

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I'm sure this is like it really 
stressed you out. 

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Yeah. 
But just a real representation 

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of how the school and education 
system is quite broken and, and 

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how those teachers were 
overworked. 

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We teachers are underpaid. 
They are stressed out. 

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They can't control the, the kids
discipline is on the floor. 

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And those, those scenes where 
the, the teachers, there's one 

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teacher particularly who was 
struggling to hold the class, 

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but the other teachers, the male
teachers who were shouting at 

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the kids, you know, spending 
most of their time trying to 

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control the kids rather than 
teach them. 

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And you think about the 
environment that we're sending 

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our kids to, like, what does 
that do for them? 

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And how does that not protect 
them against all the other 

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negative influences that we're 
seeing online and, and, and 

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through the world? 
I think the education system 

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doesn't help at all. 
There was also a scene when the 

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lead detectives went into into 
the school to talk about the 

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murder weapon. 
And as they were kind of trying 

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to address the class, the kids 
were just laughing. 

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And it really just showed the 
desensitization of violence. 

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And yeah, through gaming, 
through what we've seen online, 

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social media, YouTube, just 
murder, killing, you know, It's 

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so desensitized. 
Yeah. 

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And that you're absolutely 
right. 

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I had really hadn't fully picked
up on that. 

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But now that you say it, when 
Jamie is in with the 

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psychologist in the room and the
psychologist has to keep saying 

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to him, you know, she's dead, 
she's not coming back to life, 

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she is dead. 
As if he really hasn't computed 

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that he hasn't process that him 
stabbing her means she's dead 

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and she's gone forever. 
You're right. 

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This desensitization to violence
and this notion that perhaps a 

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heart to gaming that in, you 
know, in games you kill people 

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and things. 
It's not real. 

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Like is that plaguing and 
messing with that kids brains? 

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I don't know. 
I don't know the answer to that 

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I think. 
It is. 

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I think the writing was so 
clever. 

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I think it's, I think it was all
on purpose. 

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You know, all these little 
things. 

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I think they just put in there 
as little these these are things

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around the edges, you know, that
very much play into the outcome.

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Episode 3. 
I've watched it three times when

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Jamie's sitting down being 
interviewed by the psychologist 

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Erin Docherty, I think her name 
is incredible actor. 

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And there was one moment that 
struck me actually, when she 

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went out into the into the 
control room and the security 

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guard was there and she was 
watching the video and he's like

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in her ear just whispering and 
being. 

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Really creepy. 
It was awful. 

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It was. 
Really creepy. 

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Yeah. 
And I think they they put that 

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in there to show, look, these 
little incidents of like sexism,

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misogyny, I guess what women 
have to face in the workplace 

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and in life. 
And it felt it made me feel 

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really uncomfortable because 
like, why was he sounding so 

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close? 
Why was he whispering in her 

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ear? 
She's a professional, She's 

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doing her job. 
And it was his entitlement to 

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her personal space and her 
professional thinking time that 

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I really that that really stood 
out to me as a kind of put that 

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in there to show, yes, there's 
this big story, but there's 

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these little things that happen 
like every single day. 

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Yeah. 
You're absolutely right. 

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Yeah. 
And any woman watching that and 

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has had that experience, that 
exact experience, but they're 

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not doing anything that you can 
quite put your finger on that is

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wrong. 
But they make you feel so 

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uncomfortable and make you just 
want to crawl out of your own 

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skin by standing too close by 
looking at you in a way that 

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they want you to take your 
clothes off. 

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There's just something not quite
right about that situation and 

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they portrayed that beautifully 
and they. 

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Did what was it just about 
Jamie's character? 

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00:10:56,920 --> 00:10:58,800
You know, at the beginning I 
thought, oh, he couldn't have 

230
00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:02,320
done it because he's 13, right? 
And he's he's quite a small 

231
00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:03,880
skinny kid, right? 
So you're thinking he's not 

232
00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:06,840
capable A. 
Terrible like beautiful boy, 

233
00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:09,640
they've done that on purpose, 
have they as well so you're. 

234
00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:12,400
Thinking it's not possible. 
But then you get to the 

235
00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:15,240
interview and you see the 
complex nature of This is a boy 

236
00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:19,200
who thinks he's ugly, who is 
being nobody at school, who 

237
00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:22,320
feels like he doesn't live up to
his dad's expectations in in 

238
00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:24,400
sport and football. 
And that that scene around him 

239
00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:26,760
being in goal and, and the dad 
kind of turning away from him. 

240
00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:30,680
But then he's so he's so quick 
to anger and intimidate the 

241
00:11:30,680 --> 00:11:33,000
psychologist. 
And I thought that was 

242
00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:37,320
terrifying, revealing that 
people can be complicated and 

243
00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:41,000
yes, you can look innocent, 
still be capable of horrific 

244
00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:43,840
crimes. 
Yeah, because as well as the 

245
00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:47,720
anger in that room, you feel his
fear as well. 

246
00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:52,960
He's so scared, is a scared 
little boy who uses anger to 

247
00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:57,400
deflect from his fear. 
That was what I was seeing when 

248
00:11:57,400 --> 00:11:58,960
he's in the room with the 
psychologist. 

249
00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:01,240
But he also felt for the 
psychologist and what that would

250
00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:04,560
feel like as a woman in that 
room with a 13 year old boy 

251
00:12:04,560 --> 00:12:08,400
shouting in your face who has 
committed this heinous crime. 

252
00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:13,960
I mean, I, I was really 
fascinated by how the mother 

253
00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:17,080
was, was essentially left out of
it for most of it. 

254
00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:20,280
I mean, obviously she was in it 
a bit more at the end, but it 

255
00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:25,320
was very focused on the role of 
the dad in all of this. 

256
00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:28,640
And I liked that as well because
often the mother is the one 

257
00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:31,520
that's blamed and often in the 
right wing media And remember 

258
00:12:31,520 --> 00:12:34,840
seeing a headline of them 
talking about mass murderers and

259
00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:37,880
what their mums were like. 
Like they did a whole article on

260
00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:40,880
it in the Daily Mail. 
And as if, you know, must be the

261
00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:42,560
mother's fault. 
So is the mother's fault. 

262
00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:45,680
And they very much stayed away 
from that narrative. 

263
00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:48,960
And they did talk quite a lot 
about the dad's anger. 

264
00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:53,040
And although the dad had never 
harmed anybody, he clearly had a

265
00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:55,880
lot of anger issues. 
And he still was very lovable. 

266
00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:59,320
But he was. 
But he also had this switch that

267
00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:01,320
he could turn to anger quite 
quickly. 

268
00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:04,520
He dismantled the shed, didn't 
he, one time when he was 

269
00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:08,960
furious, which I loved. 
And so there's, you know, that 

270
00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:15,440
that really complicated 
conversation about male anger 

271
00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:18,360
felt was done very well it. 
Was it was. 

272
00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:22,080
And I think there's a scene on 
the way back from the DIY shop 

273
00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:24,720
when Jamie says he's going to 
change his plea and the 

274
00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:27,480
conversation he has with his mom
and sister and how he kind of 

275
00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:30,200
doesn't really want to speak to 
them, kind of like dismisses 

276
00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:32,440
them. 
And it just showed me how he's 

277
00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:35,440
so keen for his dad's approval. 
And maybe that dismissiveness of

278
00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:37,760
the conversation with his mom 
and sister was a bigger 

279
00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:40,840
reflection of his lack of 
respect for women and how 

280
00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:44,120
actually the male approval is 
what he is really seeking. 

281
00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:48,080
But I felt like the dad at the 
end, you know, when he's he, he 

282
00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:50,160
spoke about work getting in the 
way. 

283
00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:52,480
His business took off. 
He left the house at six, got 

284
00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:54,560
back at 8. 
And he says maybe I took my my 

285
00:13:54,560 --> 00:13:57,000
eye off the ball. 
That really hit home because, 

286
00:13:57,040 --> 00:13:59,840
you know, we know the importance
of good male role models and not

287
00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:02,040
just having a good dad, but a 
good dad that's actually present

288
00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:04,160
in the house. 
And going back to this idea 

289
00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:06,400
about masculinity that we 
provide and we're out working 

290
00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:08,000
all the time. 
And I thought that was so 

291
00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:12,000
important to include because 
providing is one thing, but what

292
00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:15,240
are we providing for if we're 
not around, not saying we can be

293
00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:17,480
around every evening, right? 
But if we're not around 

294
00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:20,520
substantive amount of time to 
spend time with our kids and get

295
00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:23,280
to know them and then get to 
know us, what we providing for. 

296
00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:27,320
And I think what they tried to 
do was reflect his, the dad's 

297
00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:30,640
character as ultimately a good 
man, not a perfect man, but 

298
00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:35,520
ultimately a man that's flawed 
in his own way, but not, not 

299
00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:39,480
extreme, not to blame, you know,
like he seemed like a normal 

300
00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:41,560
guy. 
Like his level of anger didn't 

301
00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:43,880
seem extreme to me. 
I don't think they were trying 

302
00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:45,640
to portray him as an extremely 
angry man. 

303
00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:48,560
I think they're actually trying 
to say this is quite a normal 

304
00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:51,600
family, actually. 
And maybe what we have been 

305
00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:54,520
doing just isn't, I don't want 
to say good enough. 

306
00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:57,760
That isn't the right thing. 
And maybe where we can make 

307
00:14:57,760 --> 00:14:59,800
changes to be more present, we 
should be able to be more 

308
00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:01,240
present. 
And that's really tough to 

309
00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:03,320
deliver and tough to hear. 
And I'm not saying I'm perfect 

310
00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:06,480
at all, but I think what the 
program showed us is that for 

311
00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:08,640
the dads, it's really important 
that we're around. 

312
00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:10,760
Yeah. 
It's yeah, I agree. 

313
00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:13,200
And I do think it's the 
portrayal of a very normal 

314
00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:15,360
family. 
But I did also pick up on the 

315
00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:18,400
fact that the women in that 
family are very different to 

316
00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:21,680
him. 
He was the boss and he, you 

317
00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:24,760
know, when they talked about 
moving, he was like, no, we are 

318
00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:26,800
not moving. 
And that was like, that's the 

319
00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:29,760
end of the story. 
No more conversation about it. 

320
00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:34,320
I think that deference to him 
was meant to be there to show 

321
00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:39,080
that perhaps that also had fed 
into Jamie's negative feelings 

322
00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:42,160
towards girls and women. 
They then the girl that he 

323
00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:47,520
killed, she was bullying him 
online and the only reaction to 

324
00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:51,640
that that he had in his toolbox 
was anger. 

325
00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:57,040
And if perhaps in the home when 
arguments had happened between 

326
00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:02,040
the mum and dad and the dad had 
modelled backing down or saying 

327
00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:05,960
I'm sorry or giving her a hug, 
or the there being that 

328
00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:10,360
representation of a different 
way of handling that situation, 

329
00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:13,880
perhaps that that could have fed
into Jamie's behavior. 

330
00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:15,720
Perhaps. 
I don't know whether that's what

331
00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:18,880
they're saying and I don't know 
whether that is right what I'm 

332
00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:21,600
saying. 
I just you know that I think I 

333
00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:25,160
did notice the difference there.
Was definitely a kind of how are

334
00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:27,880
you going to respond thing like 
what's your emotional reaction 

335
00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:30,040
going to be? 
And then from the women to the 

336
00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:31,520
to the dad. 
And then how do we adapt our 

337
00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:35,200
behavior around you? 
You know, and and? 

338
00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:37,960
That happens a lot in family. 
It does, it happens a lot. 

339
00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:39,720
I've seen it in my own family 
and friendship groups. 

340
00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:42,360
You know where that happens and 
it's sad when you see it 

341
00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:44,000
happening. 
I've been in, in, in households 

342
00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:46,840
and the guy says something or 
someone in the room says 

343
00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:50,280
something and the the wife looks
at the husband and then looks at

344
00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:52,040
everyone else to see their 
reaction before they speak 

345
00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:54,320
rather than I feel free to say 
what I want. 

346
00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:56,640
And I think it's an important 
message for all the men 

347
00:16:56,640 --> 00:17:00,240
listening to to create that 
emotional psychological safety 

348
00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:03,720
in your household where people 
aren't scared to express their 

349
00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:05,880
opinions or show their emotions 
because they're scared of how 

350
00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:08,200
you're going to respond to them.
And actually knowing that your 

351
00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:10,440
children can say what they want 
to say, right. 

352
00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:12,040
And you're not just going to get
angry. 

353
00:17:12,319 --> 00:17:15,760
They don't have to adapt to 
their behavior because that's 

354
00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:16,599
around. 
Yeah, exactly. 

355
00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:19,640
You know, and that's what I 
think when we're talking about 

356
00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:23,200
what good looks like, right? 
Being around is half, half the 

357
00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:25,200
job. 
But then once you are around, 

358
00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:27,119
it's like, what does healthy 
look like? 

359
00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:29,200
How do you create an A healthy 
environment? 

360
00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:32,040
And I often that really stood 
out to me is when the mom said, 

361
00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:36,040
you know, at 11 AM, Jamie would 
have his lights on. 

362
00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:39,440
And I would just, you know, say 
to him, Jamie got school in the 

363
00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:41,440
morning and he just turned the 
light off and not say anything. 

364
00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:44,320
And I thought about my own 
childhood and thought my mum and

365
00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:48,560
dad had burst into my room. 
Like, if I'm up at 1:00 AM on a 

366
00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:52,000
school night, yeah, my mum and 
dad are not knocking on the 

367
00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:53,640
door. 
They're not talking like. 

368
00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:58,240
I I must have told you before I 
have had because my son doesn't 

369
00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:02,360
have a phone and kids in his 
class do they sometimes think I 

370
00:18:02,360 --> 00:18:05,720
am my son. 
And so and I get messages from 

371
00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:09,120
kids in his class at 1:00 AM. 
They're in their bedroom 

372
00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:11,640
messaging each other on 
WhatsApp. 

373
00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:15,520
And these are 11 year old kids 
and their parents don't know. 

374
00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:18,800
So I think, you know, I think 
that was a really clear message 

375
00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:22,760
actually in there. 
One thing you can do is like not

376
00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:24,920
let your kids have screens in 
their bedroom, please. 

377
00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:27,000
Like, yeah, I don't want to 
sound like that, that, that, 

378
00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:30,120
that sounds really judgmental. 
And it's really hard to monitor 

379
00:18:30,120 --> 00:18:34,240
that because my son is desperate
for a computer and a screen set 

380
00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:36,880
up in his bedroom and most of 
his friends have it. 

381
00:18:37,120 --> 00:18:39,440
And I get why. 
Like, I'm not trying to be 

382
00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:42,360
judgmental. 
I just think you do lose control

383
00:18:42,360 --> 00:18:45,640
sometimes if you and you don't 
know what they're doing and you 

384
00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:48,480
can't monitor them every second.
But you can have boundaries. 

385
00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:48,880
Yeah. 
And. 

386
00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:53,040
I for me, it kind of spoke to 
not wanting to upset your child,

387
00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:56,480
you know, wanting to like be 
pally with them, not wants to 

388
00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:59,160
break the relationship, not 
wants to have a confrontation. 

389
00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:01,520
And I do feel like sometimes 
we're in that a little bit too 

390
00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:05,520
much when actually like we're 
still their parents. 

391
00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:08,600
Friendship will hopefully 
develop, you know, over the 

392
00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:11,480
years, but ultimately we are 
still their parents. 

393
00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:13,600
And I think about my own 
parents. 

394
00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:16,880
I mean, a very traditional 
Caribbean household where my dad

395
00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:21,440
particularly was nice man, but 
very strict with education, 

396
00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:23,560
behavior, manners and stuff like
that. 

397
00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:25,440
And that served me really, 
really well. 

398
00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:28,960
And I, I do fear sometimes we 
are going completely the other 

399
00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:30,960
way around where we're not, 
we're, we're scared to put 

400
00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:33,720
boundaries around things that we
know are unhealthy for our kids,

401
00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:36,320
But we, we are so scared to, to 
upset them. 

402
00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:39,880
You know, and Stevens character 
at one point said, you know, my 

403
00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:42,160
dad used to beat me when I was 
Jamie's age. 

404
00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:44,640
My dad used to beat me and I 
turned out like this. 

405
00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:48,120
And how did I create Jamie when 
I never put a hand on him? 

406
00:19:48,360 --> 00:19:50,600
And I think that was a really 
interesting dynamic as well. 

407
00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:53,760
You know, around, no, I'm not 
talking about physical 

408
00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:57,600
discipline here, but boundaries 
and how much we expect from our 

409
00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:01,080
kids around behaviour, 
obedience, the parent. 

410
00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:05,680
Child relationship, how much of 
that do we lean into and do any 

411
00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:08,360
way we need to rethink how much,
how much boundaries we put 

412
00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:11,280
around what our children do and 
not be scared to go into their 

413
00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:13,760
room at 1:00 AM when they're 
blatantly on the Internet. 

414
00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:15,640
Yeah. 
Talking to whoever, yeah. 

415
00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:18,040
I think we should get your dad 
on the podcast as well. 

416
00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:21,280
He would hate this if you could 
pay him enough money to come on 

417
00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:24,200
his podcast. 
Who are charges? 

418
00:20:25,120 --> 00:20:26,640
Mr. Ray? 
Yeah, he. 

419
00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:29,760
Wouldn't BBC documentary, he did
that because he knew how much it

420
00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:31,840
meant to me. 
But he he got notice in the 

421
00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:34,200
supermarket and he came to me. 
He's like Elliot, someone saw me

422
00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:36,280
from the TV and he like hasn't 
forgiven me for that. 

423
00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:37,760
So no, I wouldn't. 
I wouldn't put it on this 

424
00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:39,800
podcast. 
Doesn't like to be the centre of

425
00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:41,680
attention. 
OK, got it. 

426
00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:42,760
Not. 
Like me at all I. 

427
00:20:43,360 --> 00:20:46,440
Want to talk? 
Briefly, about the impact, the 

428
00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:50,720
worry that I have about 
adolescence being used to create

429
00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:56,120
division between boys and girls.
And I've seen some days, I'm not

430
00:20:56,120 --> 00:20:58,680
going to be able to quote the 
exact statistics, but in some 

431
00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:02,400
countries, boys and girls are 
reporting a lot of division 

432
00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:06,560
between between the genders. 
And in the UK actually that the 

433
00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:09,200
division has not been that 
great. 

434
00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:11,920
We seem to be rubbing along 
together quite well. 

435
00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:15,120
There is always a danger that 
things like this will be taken 

436
00:21:15,120 --> 00:21:18,600
by certain fractions of the 
media and used to create those 

437
00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:20,640
divisions because that sells 
newspapers. 

438
00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:22,480
And I've already seen that 
happening. 

439
00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:25,800
So there was an article in the 
Daily Mail with the headline, is

440
00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:30,160
yours, your son a ticking time 
bomb? 

441
00:21:30,360 --> 00:21:33,720
Like, what are we doing? 
No, thank you. 

442
00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:35,840
My son is not a ticking time 
bomb. 

443
00:21:36,120 --> 00:21:39,760
And by putting these headlines 
in the newspaper, we're telling 

444
00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:44,240
people to be afraid of boys. 
We're saying what's your sons? 

445
00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:46,400
They need watching because they 
are a problem. 

446
00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:49,320
And the Internet and social 
media is a problem for 

447
00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:51,680
everybody. 
It is not just a problem for 

448
00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:53,960
boys. 
And no, my son is not a ticking 

449
00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:56,840
time bomb. 
He is deserving of love and 

450
00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:59,720
respect and care like any other 
child. 

451
00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:03,560
He is just in a world that we 
don't understand at the moment. 

452
00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:08,560
And so rather than as constantly
putting this blame, particularly

453
00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:13,960
on boys, that I think has an 
adverse effect effect where it 

454
00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:17,800
creates more division, it means 
boys are more likely to 

455
00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:22,560
gravitate towards the manosphere
and influences that tell them 

456
00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:25,320
that they are amazing because 
they're the ones that are 

457
00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:28,520
picking them up rather than the 
media demonizing them. 

458
00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:31,360
I think rather than this blame, 
we should be looking for 

459
00:22:31,360 --> 00:22:34,520
solutions. 
And it really deeply concerns me

460
00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:37,040
about how we're going to be 
talking to boys and the messages

461
00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:38,680
that they're receiving as a 
result. 

462
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:41,080
Like with anything, when 
something becomes big, it gets 

463
00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:44,280
weaponized for people's own 
motivations just clicks and to 

464
00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:48,360
sell newspapers, whatever it is,
political agenda and things just

465
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:50,760
for us all to be aware, you 
know, what content are we 

466
00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:52,880
consuming? 
How do we critically think about

467
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,040
what we're consuming? 
And as I said at the beginning 

468
00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:58,720
of going to the organizations 
that are doing the work on on 

469
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:00,720
the ground. 
I'm really happy this 

470
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:05,240
conversation has come up, but 
the, the ideas are not new. 

471
00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:07,600
The concept, the, the reality is
not a new one. 

472
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:09,600
You know, there are people that 
have been doing this work for a 

473
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,000
long time. 
Please, let's, let's pour into 

474
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:13,480
them. 
We can, we can link in the show 

475
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:15,880
notes, support those 
organizations, you know, the 

476
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:18,200
ones that are trying to have a 
healthy conversation about this 

477
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,480
and understand the issues 
really, really, really well. 

478
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:22,280
Well, I think that's a great way
to end. 

479
00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:23,760
What should we do now, Elliot? 
I think. 

480
00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:28,560
We should speak to a parent and 
we have a mum whose son has seen

481
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:31,800
some content online and we 
really want to bring this into 

482
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:33,040
reality. 
It's a hard hitting 

483
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:34,760
conversation. 
Stay with us. 

484
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:37,320
This is necessary and important.
Let's get into it. 

485
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:45,040
So Jolie, you and your partner 
are two full time busy working 

486
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:48,840
parents and I know you don't 
have your parents close by or 

487
00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:50,720
that village of the support 
nearby. 

488
00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:52,920
How do you cope with all of 
this? 

489
00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:56,080
Well, the simple answer is we 
don't. 

490
00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:59,520
We're both losing our marbles 
constantly, but thankfully we 

491
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:03,520
did find bubble childcare and 
it's been a total game changer. 

492
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:06,480
We were really nervous about 
having a stranger come into our 

493
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:10,680
house, but we found Sarah. 
She's a primary school teacher 

494
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:14,520
who is doing some babysitting 
and nannying on the side. 

495
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:19,280
She came and met with us. 
The kids absolutely adore her. 

496
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:23,920
She is just brilliant as she 
babysat for us a couple of weeks

497
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:27,320
ago and she even made the kids 
their dinner and now the kids 

498
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:29,880
just want us to go out all the 
time so that they can have 

499
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:33,000
Sarah. 
We've we've used her for 

500
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,080
emergency backup care. 
It's saved our relationship, 

501
00:24:36,120 --> 00:24:39,640
it's saved our careers. 
We just love Bubble. 

502
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:44,240
Fine, and book background 
checks, nannies and sitters who 

503
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,720
can be with you in as little as 
an hour. 

504
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Trusted by parents. 
You know, like us. 

505
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Search Bubble Childcare in the 
App Store or Google Play Store. 

506
00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,880
We're doing a special episode 
today on some of the themes of 

507
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:04,160
adolescence, looking at the 
impact it's having on boys and 

508
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:08,000
on parents. 
And so we have with us today a 

509
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:12,520
mum who has an experience of 
something that happened to her 

510
00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:15,600
child that she's going to share 
with us. 

511
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:19,640
So, Sarah, if you'd like to tell
us your story, thanks. 

512
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,720
Julie it was probably about this
time last year actually. 

513
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:27,040
My son had been playing for a 
couple of years since COVID with

514
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:29,360
a child that lived really, 
really close to us. 

515
00:25:29,360 --> 00:25:33,400
And he was a little bit older 
than Billy and he moved away. 

516
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,720
So Billy and the other child 
kept in touch by playing with 

517
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:39,440
with each other online. 
They quite often played on the 

518
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:46,000
Xbox or they would connect their
iPad and play Roblox games that 

519
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:49,160
both me and my husband thought 
were age appropriate. 

520
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:53,160
There was one afternoon where 
Billy and the other boy were 

521
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:57,760
playing and I was in the room 
next to Billy and I always said 

522
00:25:57,760 --> 00:25:59,440
to him, keep your door open so I
can hear you. 

523
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:02,680
Who you chatting to? 
I was working and I noticed that

524
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:04,800
Billy cut the conversation quite
short. 

525
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:07,160
There was a couple of raised 
voices but I wasn't really 

526
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:08,800
listening. 
They quite often shouted and 

527
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,800
he's quite loud. 
Later on that afternoon I didn't

528
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:14,760
really think anything of it, but
later on that afternoon my 

529
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:17,960
husband took Billy swimming. 
She's a regular occurrence and 

530
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,680
then when they came home from 
swimming, my husband came in. 

531
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:24,920
Billy was in front of him with a
very sort of strange look upon 

532
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:28,000
his face and my husband's just 
sort of mouthed at me. 

533
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,160
Don't say anything and I'm just 
going to put him in the front 

534
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:32,440
room and put the telly on. 
And then he kind of indicated 

535
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:36,240
that I had to go to the kitchen 
and my husband talked to me and 

536
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:39,680
explained on the way back from 
swimming, Billy has burst into 

537
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:41,760
tears in the in the car, really 
unlike him. 

538
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:46,600
My husband had to stop the car 
and asked Billy what's the 

539
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:52,120
matter And but he told him that 
the other boy had told him 

540
00:26:52,120 --> 00:26:54,920
whilst they were playing on a 
game, had told him all about the

541
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:58,920
doc web he had introduced into 
the concept of necrophilia. 

542
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:04,200
And he'd also told him about 
sites where adults looked at 

543
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,960
naked boys, specifically said 
naked boys and that they could 

544
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:11,760
do things to naked boys. 
And that he'd also seen sites 

545
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:13,680
where naked children were for 
sale for sex. 

546
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:18,000
And it's taken really the whole 
of the swimming session to pluck

547
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:21,240
up the courage to be able to 
talk to my husband about it. 

548
00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:24,800
And my husband sat in the car 
with him for over 40 minutes to 

549
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:26,240
try and get this story out of 
him. 

550
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:31,360
And as a result of that, he was 
just a completely changed child.

551
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:35,600
It was probably the, like, one 
of the worst moments of our 

552
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:38,520
lives to understand that that 
had happened in a conversation 

553
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:40,200
that probably took less than 10 
minutes. 

554
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:42,560
What? 
Did your husband say to Billy 

555
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:44,000
when that happened? 
I think. 

556
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,680
He went straight into problem 
solving mode. 

557
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,200
Fortunately, both my husband and
I are. 

558
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:51,040
We have jobs where we manage 
people. 

559
00:27:51,120 --> 00:27:55,960
And I think that we both sort of
jumped into that sort of persona

560
00:27:55,960 --> 00:28:01,240
of trying to understand the 
problem and spoke to him about 

561
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,040
the fact that he was really, 
really pleased that he told him.

562
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:06,600
He said he'd, you know, he'd 
been really brave for telling 

563
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:08,680
him that he knew that something 
had been the matter. 

564
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,360
And my husband later said to me 
that he could tell during the 

565
00:28:11,360 --> 00:28:14,560
swimming session that Billy was 
worried about something. 

566
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:18,120
And the thing that broke my 
heart was that Billy had said to

567
00:28:18,120 --> 00:28:20,720
me afterwards that he was 
swimming and he just kept 

568
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:22,800
looking around thinking I'm not 
safe. 

569
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:25,200
I've only got a really small 
pair of shorts on another people

570
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,800
in the swimming pool that are 
here because they want to buy 

571
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:29,320
me. 
And it was that that really 

572
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,080
upset me. 
I mean, everything upset me. 

573
00:28:32,360 --> 00:28:35,440
But that one that was sentenced,
when I was talking to him, I had

574
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:38,400
to really try really hard not to
cry a thing. 

575
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:41,200
That it is just horrendous for 
all of you. 

576
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:44,880
And I have some insight into 
what that feels like because I 

577
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:49,000
have had not to the same extent,
but a similarish experience with

578
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,040
my eldest son. 
So I know how terrifying it is. 

579
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:56,200
And I, I think it's amazing that
your son talked to you and your 

580
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:58,760
husband about it. 
That shows that he feels really 

581
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:01,680
safe to talk about what has been
happening to him. 

582
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:06,200
What did you do next after you'd
had the conversation with Billy?

583
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,120
What did you decide would be 
your next actions? 

584
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:11,520
Well, I think at the. 
Time we didn't really think 

585
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:13,480
about what we were going to do 
in the future. 

586
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:16,200
We told him that he'd been 
really brave. 

587
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:18,880
We first of all, we asked him if
he'd seen anything. 

588
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:22,200
And that was another massive 
concern for both of us. 

589
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:26,080
He said that the other boy had 
said that he could show him the 

590
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:29,400
sights, but that was when the 
raised voices occurred. 

591
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,640
And Billy said, no, I don't want
to see anything and just stopped

592
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:36,080
the call. 
So I did more digging. 

593
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:38,920
I had loads more conversations 
with him to try and understand 

594
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:41,280
exactly what the other child had
said. 

595
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:46,480
And then I think foolishly at 
the time, both my husband and I 

596
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:50,800
saw just having a chat with him 
and reassuring him that those 

597
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:54,520
things we didn't lie. 
I've always been really mindful 

598
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,360
when Billy asks me questions. 
I've always tried to be as 

599
00:29:57,360 --> 00:29:59,680
honest as I could in an age 
appropriate fashion. 

600
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:03,120
But we reassured him that he was
completely safe. 

601
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:07,520
But the, his, the change in the 
behavior lasted for months and 

602
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:11,640
months and months. 
And I think that it was really 

603
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:16,080
apparent a couple of weeks later
when he still the day that it 

604
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:19,680
happened, he slept in our bed. 
And he hadn't done that since he

605
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,400
was a toddler. 
And then he didn't want to leave

606
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:24,560
our room. 
So he ended up sleeping in our 

607
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:27,240
room, actually on and off for 
about 6 months. 

608
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:30,440
So probably after about four 
weeks of him still sleeping in 

609
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:33,560
our room, I said to my husband, 
I feel like we need to do 

610
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:37,040
something else. 
So I went to talk to the school 

611
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,840
because there was one more name 
where I had to sit in the car 

612
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:44,360
with Billy for about an hour to 
try and get him to go to school.

613
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,600
And that's when he started. 
He was saying things like he 

614
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:50,720
didn't want to be here. 
He felt it was his fault. 

615
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:53,760
He felt he shouldn't have had 
that conversation with the other

616
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:55,840
boy. 
I think he was just replaying 

617
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:59,080
the the instance and the 
situation over and over and over

618
00:30:59,080 --> 00:30:59,920
in his mind. 
Oh my. 

619
00:30:59,960 --> 00:31:05,000
Goodness, I well, I just can't 
imagine how dramatic that was 

620
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:07,400
for all of you. 
You said he stayed in the same 

621
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:10,560
bed as you for six months. 
How did he do you think he's 

622
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:12,920
he's better for want of a better
word? 

623
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:14,920
Do you think he's managed to 
process it? 

624
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:18,160
Do you think he's managed to to 
be able to put it in a box so 

625
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:20,600
that he can move forward in a 
healthy way? 

626
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:23,280
Or do you think it's still there
and it's always going to plague 

627
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:23,840
him? 
I. 

628
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:28,760
Think it took a very, very long 
time and I think looking back, I

629
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:31,840
don't think it was until after 
we had the summer break from 

630
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:36,560
school that he started to almost
come back to his normal self. 

631
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:43,040
We were fortunate enough to have
a connection who gave us some 

632
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:45,680
really good advice. 
So I wanted to get Billy some 

633
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:48,040
help. 
But this person that we know who

634
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:51,000
is a child psychologist 
explained to us that what 

635
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:54,920
actually needed to happen was 
that my husband and I needed to 

636
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:58,480
talk to somebody to be able to 
give us help to help Billy. 

637
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:03,000
So we, yeah, are fortunate and 
privileged enough to be able to,

638
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:07,280
we were able to afford a session
with a child psychologist, which

639
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:09,520
really, really helped me 
especially. 

640
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:12,320
I think I was the one that was 
tending to have all of these 

641
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:15,920
conversations with Billy to try 
and get out of him what was the 

642
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:19,120
matter and to try and allow him 
and give him space and hold 

643
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:20,760
space for him to have these 
conversations. 

644
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:23,960
Whereas I think my husband was a
bit more action focused and 

645
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:27,560
would try to distract him or 
would try to encourage him to do

646
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:29,440
do other things and not think 
about it. 

647
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:32,720
Whereas I was the person that 
inevitably would go to bed at 

648
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:34,400
the same time as him and then 
we'd end up having a 

649
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:36,720
conversation for an hour about 
all of this stuff that was just 

650
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:37,840
going round and round in his 
head. 

651
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:44,040
Advice would you give to any of 
the parent listening who may 

652
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:47,880
come across this in the future, 
who may have a child who tells 

653
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:52,240
them that they've seen something
on the Internet that has really,

654
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:55,640
really perturbed them and that 
you know, the content is 

655
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,480
particularly disturbing? 
What What advice would you give 

656
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:01,520
to them to help their child 
process what they've seen? 

657
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:06,560
Them talk about it don't try and
brush it under the carpet I 

658
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:09,880
think that's probably what we 
tried to do in the beginning but

659
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:13,800
give them the space to be able 
to process what they've seen or 

660
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:17,040
what they've heard and get some 
help for yourself as well so 

661
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,680
that you're able to use 
different tools that maybe you 

662
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:23,160
haven't thought about to be able
to support your child that's 

663
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,160
that's gone through this because
I'm sure it's much more common 

664
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:29,400
than than we think it is yeah I.
Think that's great advice. 

665
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:31,600
Thank you for taking the time to
talk to us today. 

666
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:36,520
Thank you. 
I'm a Transformation Director 

667
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:39,320
with 15 years experience helping
businesses make major change. 

668
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,920
I bring a deep understanding of 
problem solving, trend analysis,

669
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:47,480
and stakeholder engagement. 
I'm able to operate at both 

670
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,840
executive and team level. 
I'm personable and pragmatic 

671
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:55,120
with a huge passion. 
For my work, pregnancy and 

672
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:59,080
maternity discrimination shreds 
the careers of 74,000 women 

673
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:01,240
every year at Pregnant and then 
Screwed. 

674
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:04,360
We can stop it. 
Visit careershredder.com to show

675
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:10,920
your support. 
Hello everyone. 

676
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:15,120
Today we are joined by Sarah 
Clark, or Sarah with the blue 

677
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:19,040
hair as she is better known, who
is a child and adolescent 

678
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:22,600
psychotherapist living and 
working in the Northeast. 

679
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:26,199
She's spent the last 30 years 
working in private, state and 

680
00:34:26,199 --> 00:34:30,040
specialist school settings in 
one capacity or another all over

681
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:33,679
England and abroad. 
And she's also a a single mum of

682
00:34:33,679 --> 00:34:38,320
two utterly gorgeous daughters 
aged 18 and 15. 

683
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,440
So she definitely comes with 
lots of experience of looking 

684
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:45,520
after teenagers as well. 
So Sarah, we would love to talk 

685
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:48,679
to you about some of the themes 
that are coming out of 

686
00:34:48,679 --> 00:34:52,400
adolescence and that lots of 
people are panicking over. 

687
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,960
And also there seems to be this 
sort of, I've seen this rhetoric

688
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:59,760
coming out from it that feels 
quite divisive about what is 

689
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,520
happening to our teenagers. 
So I guess my first question 

690
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:05,240
question is how worried should 
we be I. 

691
00:35:05,240 --> 00:35:08,320
Think we should be worried and I
think I would have said that 10 

692
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:11,160
years ago, 20 years ago, I'll 
say that 10 years in the future 

693
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:14,480
because being worried about our 
kids is what good parenting 

694
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:17,520
looks like, so. 
Do you think that we have an 

695
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:21,520
extra layer of worry because of 
the Internet? 

696
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:26,160
Do you think social media and 
the things that they potentially

697
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:29,360
are accessing online is causing 
damage to our children? 

698
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:31,240
I think it. 
Makes it more complicated 

699
00:35:31,240 --> 00:35:34,800
because I think really 
teenagers, children need 

700
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:38,360
fundamentally need two things. 
They need good relationships and

701
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:40,960
within the relationships they 
need good communication. 

702
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:44,000
And the problem with the 
Internet is that it detracts 

703
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,040
from both of those two things. 
And the best form of 

704
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:50,400
communication is 1 to one face 
to face like we're doing now. 

705
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:53,080
And the minute you start 
messaging, you lose tone of 

706
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:55,760
voice, you lose new. 
Once you lose context, you lose 

707
00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:57,640
all that non verbal 
communication. 

708
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:00,360
So that then detracts from the 
relationship. 

709
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:03,120
So if communication 
relationships are fundamental to

710
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:06,240
helping our children grow up in 
this world, we're taking away 

711
00:36:06,240 --> 00:36:09,040
from both of those two things 
every time we put them in front 

712
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:10,160
of a screen. 
So. 

713
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:13,280
You would say the big worry is 
not necessarily what they're 

714
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:16,040
accessing online, but the 
deterioration in real life 

715
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:19,480
relationships in favour of 
online relationships. 

716
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:21,880
That's the biggest issue that 
you're seeing exactly. 

717
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:25,360
That as human beings, we're 
hardwired to be relational. 

718
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:29,640
That's what everybody wants. 
The difficulty with teenagers in

719
00:36:29,640 --> 00:36:32,280
particular is that they can give
all the time that they don't 

720
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:35,640
want to be in a relationship 
with you, particularly if you're

721
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:37,680
their parents. 
I mean, they're, they're 

722
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:41,320
designed to start separating 
from their parents and move 

723
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:44,160
towards their peer group. 
So all the signals that they 

724
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:46,480
give off are around. 
I don't want to talk to you. 

725
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:48,880
Silence. 
Slamming of doors, disappearing 

726
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:51,120
off to bedrooms. 
But it's actually a bit of a 

727
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:55,360
trick because their other 
relationships are so confusing 

728
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:58,720
that now is the time they need 
us most to walk alongside them 

729
00:36:58,720 --> 00:37:00,320
and help them navigate those 
and. 

730
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:02,960
Sarah, is it a bit of both? 
Is it a bit of more access to 

731
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:06,480
social media and screens? 
Do you think also parents are 

732
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:10,120
pulling back more than previous 
generations or is it just that 

733
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:12,200
we're thinking about it more now
maybe? 

734
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:16,040
Both because it's easier to pull
back the idea of the digital 

735
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:19,400
babysitter and, and let's be 
really honest, we can't put all 

736
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,400
the blame on the teenagers. 
How many parents a teenager 

737
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:25,200
starts to tell you something and
then your phone goes or an 

738
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:28,320
e-mail comes in or work call and
we're distracted. 

739
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:30,520
So it's, it's happening on both 
sides. 

740
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:33,240
I don't think we can put all the
blame on the teenagers. 

741
00:37:33,240 --> 00:37:36,320
I think that computers and 
digital interfacing is getting 

742
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:37,360
in the way of. 
Everybody. 

743
00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:41,120
So what advice would you give to
any parents that are listening 

744
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:46,320
right now and are worried about 
their child and their distance 

745
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:48,760
from their friends, their 
distance from them as their 

746
00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:51,800
parents and perhaps they're 
staying in their room a lot more

747
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:54,440
and they're on their computers 
and their screens a lot more. 

748
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:56,280
What advice would you give them 
to? 

749
00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:59,600
Be in fierce competition with 
the Internet. 

750
00:37:59,720 --> 00:38:02,480
I feel like that's that's our 
challenge. 

751
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:05,680
That's the challenge of the 
modern world, to encourage 

752
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:09,200
children to have parties, 
sleepovers, friends around for 

753
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:10,360
tea. 
Do you remember when we used to 

754
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:13,240
have friends around for tea? 
And I feel like kids don't need 

755
00:38:13,240 --> 00:38:16,040
that anymore because they've got
their friends on their phone. 

756
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:18,560
But friends around for tea is so
important. 

757
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:21,560
And I think what the documentary
really showed us in the final 

758
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:25,440
episode was the parents absolute
distress, saying he was in his 

759
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:26,800
room. 
We thought he was safe. 

760
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:29,360
But the minute kids are in their
rooms and the doors are closed, 

761
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:31,360
we don't know that they're safe 
anymore. 

762
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:34,280
And it's about knocking on the 
door and asking to come in, you 

763
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:37,080
know, come into their room, come
into their world, come into 

764
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:40,360
their life, come into their 
relationships and ask if they 

765
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:42,480
need a hand with that can. 
I just say I love that you 

766
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:45,000
called it tea as well. 
So for any Southerners 

767
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:47,720
listening, that's dinner or 
something. 

768
00:38:48,720 --> 00:38:52,240
I picked up on that as well and 
I was like a cup of literally a 

769
00:38:52,240 --> 00:38:56,080
cup of tea. 
And we call lunch, dinner and 

770
00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:58,400
dinner tea. 
Just just to translate. 

771
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:01,480
I used to love going around to 
my friend's house for tea. 

772
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:03,920
And we did almost every night 
after school. 

773
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:06,360
You'd be at a different person's
house, wouldn't you? 

774
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:09,280
And remember my friend's dad 
when you asked him for ketchup? 

775
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:12,800
He used to go when you finished 
your tea as if like you had to 

776
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:14,760
finish your dinner before you 
got your ketchup. 

777
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:17,800
And I feel like that is missing.
You're absolutely right. 

778
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:22,360
But I also find a reluctance 
with my children to do do more 

779
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:25,360
socializing. 
They're so addicted to games and

780
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:28,400
to screens that that's always 
their preference. 

781
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:33,000
And so encouraging them to go to
a friend's house to play out, to

782
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:35,960
do things in real life feels 
quite difficult. 

783
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:40,040
Would you say just turn those 
screens off and force them to 

784
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:41,160
socialize? 
Yeah. 

785
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:42,920
That's that's really hard to do,
isn't it? 

786
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:46,840
I think there's something about 
be the parent who offers, be the

787
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:50,360
parent who invites, be the 
parent who, dare I say it has 

788
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:53,920
the parties at your house, 
which, which I've done radiators

789
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:57,760
pulled off walls, you know, but 
ultimately I had had 30 kids in 

790
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:00,840
my house and they were all being
together mostly in person. 

791
00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:03,000
And that's what I that's what I 
really want. 

792
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:05,840
Role model it, you know, I mean,
again, if you want a throwback, 

793
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:08,520
what about dinner parties? 
You know, that was the adult 

794
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:10,440
form of going for tea with 
somebody, wasn't it? 

795
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:12,240
And I feel like we don't do that
anymore. 

796
00:40:12,240 --> 00:40:15,160
So role model, being out with 
your friends, having your 

797
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:18,400
friends round, having 
conversations rather than just 

798
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:22,960
texting because we know that 
children do what we do rather. 

799
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:25,240
Than do what we say. 
So if you want them off their 

800
00:40:25,240 --> 00:40:27,440
phones, don't be on your phones 
all the time. 

801
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:29,160
And what? 
I'm hearing is that we have to 

802
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:31,960
work a bit harder. 
I think it's so easy to be 

803
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:34,480
addicted ourselves. 
I'm definitely addicted to 

804
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:36,680
social media like Instagram, 
LinkedIn. 

805
00:40:36,720 --> 00:40:39,520
I'm on there all the time and 
I'm so conscious of my 

806
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:42,160
daughter's looking at me when 
I'm with them and I'm on my 

807
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:43,960
phone. 
Would you say it's like we as 

808
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:48,040
parents have to look at our 
addiction as well to manage our 

809
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:49,280
child's addiction? 
Yeah. 

810
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:52,520
Definitely and create those 
phone free zones. 

811
00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:55,040
So we've always had a rule in 
our house that there are no 

812
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:57,560
phones at the dinner table. 
And even just saying that, I'm 

813
00:40:57,560 --> 00:40:59,600
really aware that there are 
still lots of families that 

814
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:02,840
don't do the family dinner time.
Every member of the family 

815
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:04,960
around the table, no phones 
around. 

816
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:08,480
What did you do today? 
How was your day reminding and 

817
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:11,480
teaching our children to be 
curious about our lives? 

818
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:14,160
You know, ask how my day was. 
Let me tell you about my 

819
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:16,280
challenges. 
I feel like in there is another 

820
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:19,280
really important thing, which is
the idea of role modelling 

821
00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:22,120
mistakes, you know, and things 
going wrong and things going 

822
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:24,520
badly and how we as adults 
manage that. 

823
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:27,280
So the only way that teenagers 
are going to talk to us about 

824
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:29,720
things that are difficult or 
things that are challenging for 

825
00:41:29,720 --> 00:41:32,560
them is if we do the same for 
them and explain. 

826
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:35,520
I've had a an argument with a 
friend and I need to find a way 

827
00:41:35,520 --> 00:41:37,960
to resolve it or this terrible 
thing happened at work book 

828
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:40,920
today and I'm trying to work out
the best way to get around it. 

829
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:43,800
Because there's a lot to do with
perfection and the idea that 

830
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:47,960
they need to be right and all 
these hideous role models role 

831
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:51,600
modelling what being manly or 
masculine or even just an adult 

832
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:53,160
looks like. 
And it's never about their 

833
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:56,000
mistakes in the. 
Second episode of To Be a Boy, 

834
00:41:56,040 --> 00:42:00,480
we spoke to Ruth Whitman, who's 
the author of Boy Mom, and she 

835
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:04,080
told talked to us about brain 
development of boys and how 

836
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:07,760
actually they tend to be more 
fragile and more sensed. 

837
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:14,440
What do you think boys need 
right now to be able to deal 

838
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:18,200
with everything that they're 
able to access and and to to 

839
00:42:18,240 --> 00:42:20,280
deal with the modern world? 
Yeah. 

840
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:23,040
And going back to what I said 
earlier, if anything, boys need 

841
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:26,320
more help with communication. 
We know that it's harder for 

842
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:29,880
boys to make and maintain 
friendships and to talk in 

843
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:32,720
friendships about problems, 
difficulties to admit 

844
00:42:32,720 --> 00:42:35,480
vulnerability, to admit that 
they've got things wrong. 

845
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:38,720
That idea of boys being really 
sensitive and needing more 

846
00:42:38,720 --> 00:42:41,840
nurturers, babies, I think 
continues into adolescence 

847
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:45,680
because just because of the 
patriarchy in society, expecting

848
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:49,360
them to be tougher, braver, more
resilient, and they're not. 

849
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:52,120
And they need just as much help,
if not more help than girls. 

850
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:54,240
And the society is almost set up
for girls. 

851
00:42:54,240 --> 00:42:57,000
If we look at counseling and 
therapy, we get lots of boys 

852
00:42:57,000 --> 00:42:59,040
referred at primary school for 
acting out. 

853
00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:01,320
But by the time we get to 
secondary school, it's more 

854
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:04,120
girls who are coming to therapy,
staying in therapy. 

855
00:43:04,240 --> 00:43:07,560
And I think it's still perceived
as a weakness for boys and to be

856
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:10,160
getting that kind of help. 
And actually it's the boys who 

857
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:12,360
really need it. 
If we look at male suicide 

858
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:14,720
rates, I know you've talked 
about that before, men have 

859
00:43:14,720 --> 00:43:17,480
difficulty in getting support 
for their mental health. 

860
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:21,760
We need more men in schools, we 
need more male therapists and 

861
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:25,280
more ways to help boys access 
talking about their feelings 

862
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:26,880
and. 
Sarah, can you talk a little bit

863
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:28,800
about the the wider risk factors
as well? 

864
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:32,000
I felt like in adolescence 
Jamie's character in the family 

865
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:34,520
were a normal family, which I 
think was important to show. 

866
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:37,400
This could happen to anyone, but
we know there are wider risk 

867
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:42,000
factors that can maybe drive 
boys to harmful online content 

868
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:44,400
that can engage them in negative
behaviours. 

869
00:43:44,720 --> 00:43:47,200
So what what what you say are 
those wider kind of risk factors

870
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:48,960
that you see from boys as well? 
Yeah. 

871
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:52,520
Any kind of marginalisation, I 
think you know, boys who boys of

872
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:55,120
colour, boys who come from 
families with poverty in it. 

873
00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:59,600
We're seeing hundreds and 
thousands of young men and boys 

874
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:03,560
in in our caseloads who are 
presenting with autism and ADHD,

875
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:07,040
other neurodiversity, other 
sorts of psychological 

876
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:09,440
difficulties. 
That's all plays a part because 

877
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:12,640
for some of those children, 
actually the online world feels 

878
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:16,520
a lot safer than into personal 
relationships with other human 

879
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:18,440
beings. 
So it's even easier for them to 

880
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:20,760
retreat into those kind of 
worlds and even easier for 

881
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:25,040
parents who are struggling maybe
with a neuro diverse child to 

882
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:26,880
allow them to do it because it's
hard. 

883
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:27,640
Work. 
Yeah. 

884
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:31,360
And do you think because I know 
parents with neurodiverse 

885
00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:34,680
children who say the school 
system, it just isn't working 

886
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:37,560
for them at all. 
And so some are homeschooled. 

887
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:41,600
And so I guess as well, there's 
that extra factor if they're out

888
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:44,320
of the school system, it's 
harder than to socialize with 

889
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:46,000
people. 
So they're more likely to find 

890
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:48,840
friends online as well. 
So it's sort of a knock on 

891
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:51,440
effect of the fact that the 
school system isn't fully 

892
00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:53,400
catering to neuro diverse 
children. 

893
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:56,920
In many cases, school system 
doesn't cater and caters for so 

894
00:44:56,920 --> 00:44:59,320
many children. 
And interestingly, in my 

895
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:02,600
opinion, having taught for 30 
years, it really doesn't cater 

896
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:05,120
for boys. 
You know, it's too much sitting 

897
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:08,200
down, sitting still and going 
back to your episode 2 and we 

898
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:10,640
were talking about being 
rambunctious and physical. 

899
00:45:10,720 --> 00:45:14,000
And that's actually a way that 
boys are and need to be. 

900
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:17,080
You know, I've worked in special
educational needs and one of my 

901
00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:19,800
sanctions used to be to get boys
to run around the field just 

902
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:23,400
because being able to exert 
themselves physically was a way 

903
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:26,600
of helping them regulate, 
helping them calm down, which we

904
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:28,920
go back to adolescence. 
A lot of what we're talking 

905
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:32,760
about is male anger, male rage, 
and a finding an outlet for 

906
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:34,760
that. 
Being physical is one of those 

907
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:36,560
ways. 
And the school system just has 

908
00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:40,360
them sitting down for hours and 
hours on end, keeping still, 

909
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:43,000
keeping quiet, Sarah. 
From from your work and seeing 

910
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:45,880
adolescence, were you what was 
your emotion watching it? 

911
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:49,000
Were you surprised? 
Were you just happy that finally

912
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:51,680
these issues were given a 
mainstream platform? 

913
00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:54,240
Is there anything in there that 
you thought actually that isn't 

914
00:45:54,240 --> 00:45:56,640
a true representation of what 
you've seen from your work? 

915
00:45:56,760 --> 00:45:58,320
I. 
Think my overall summary of it 

916
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:00,920
was was very, I sound like a 
typical mum. 

917
00:46:01,240 --> 00:46:04,600
I wasn't angry with it, I was 
just a bit disappointed. 

918
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:09,320
I think I had huge expectations.
I love lessons, it's one of my 

919
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:13,000
favorite topics and I know that 
it's a really multi layered, 

920
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:16,360
complex, nuanced topic, but I 
think I was hoping for a bit 

921
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:18,040
more. 
It left me almost with more 

922
00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:20,600
questions than answers. 
It left me feeling quite 

923
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:22,520
despairing. 
It didn't seem that there was 

924
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:24,640
much in there to give parents 
hope. 

925
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:27,440
It certainly didn't seem that 
there was much signposting or 

926
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:30,720
modeling of what parenting 
communication relationships 

927
00:46:30,720 --> 00:46:34,080
could and should look like. 
Maybe my expectations were too 

928
00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:37,520
high or too professional, but 
it's certainly it's a problem. 

929
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:39,920
It's something that we as a 
profession are enormously 

930
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:42,400
worried about, but we often feel
like we're shouting into the 

931
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:43,800
void about it. 
What? 

932
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:46,760
Gives you hope Sarah. 
Blue haired Sarah. 

933
00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:51,920
About boys and just the future 
more generally, I think. 

934
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:56,440
What gives me hope is that I 
know so many lovely boys and 

935
00:46:56,440 --> 00:47:00,800
wonderful men who really want to
do better at this. 

936
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:04,600
So if there's one thing that we 
can do to help our problem with 

937
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:06,840
men and boys, it's it's other 
men and boys. 

938
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:10,160
That's what we really need. 
They don't need angry blue 

939
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:12,920
haired psychotherapists blaming 
and shaming them for getting 

940
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:15,640
things wrong all the time. 
They need lovely, warm, 

941
00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:17,960
compassionate men. 
There's been loads of stuff in 

942
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:19,760
the news today about Gareth 
Southgate. 

943
00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:22,960
You know who's just the most 
amazing male role model? 

944
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:26,920
We need men like him to stand up
and speak on behalf of men. 

945
00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:29,080
Because men will listen to other
men. 

946
00:47:29,080 --> 00:47:31,920
We need male teachers. 
We need male therapists. 

947
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:34,080
We need men to step up and help 
other men. 

948
00:47:34,240 --> 00:47:37,520
Bring them on board, empower 
them, make them feel worthy and 

949
00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:38,520
valuable. 
Lovely. 

950
00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:40,680
Thank you. 
I just one more question. 

951
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:45,400
I how what advice would you give
to a parent who really wants 

952
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:48,600
their son to talk to them? 
He just wants their son to open 

953
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:51,560
up more and feels that they're 
putting up a brick. 

954
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:55,680
Wall sometimes that little 
fraction of a plea for help is 

955
00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:59,120
really small and it can go so 
easily unnoticed. 

956
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:02,600
It's about being aware and 
waiting for that door literally 

957
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:05,080
all metaphorically to open, even
just a crack. 

958
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:08,480
And when it does, and in my 
experience, it's often the most 

959
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:11,240
inconvenient times. 
You know, it's when I come home 

960
00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:13,840
late from work, it's when I'm 
really tired. 

961
00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:16,200
It's when I've had a horrendous 
day myself. 

962
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:19,520
That's nine times out of 10 when
my teenager wants to talk to me.

963
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:23,240
And there's something about just
looking for that tiny, tiny 

964
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:25,640
opening of the door and then 
seizing it. 

965
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:28,840
And when you do, using it to 
really listen, using it to be 

966
00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:32,480
empathic and using it to say, 
this has been so nice to talk to

967
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:33,520
you. 
Let's do it again. 

968
00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:35,080
I love. 
That there are sometimes a lot 

969
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:38,000
of a lot of us parents, we 
question ourselves and we 

970
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:40,360
question whether we're doing the
right thing, the wrong thing, 

971
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:42,800
and we can be really harsh on 
ourselves and give ourselves a 

972
00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:45,160
bad performance review, some 
positivity. 

973
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:48,040
How do you think we should be 
looking at ourselves in regards 

974
00:48:48,040 --> 00:48:51,320
to our approach to parenting? 
Can we be kinder to ourselves to

975
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:52,440
know that we are doing the right
thing? 

976
00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:55,000
Sometimes I think we. 
Can, and I think the most moving

977
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:58,400
scene in adolescence is the 
tears shed by the dad in the 

978
00:48:58,400 --> 00:49:01,720
final episode when he thinks 
about how wrong he's got it or 

979
00:49:01,720 --> 00:49:05,200
he reflects on that. 
I get a lot of strength from the

980
00:49:05,240 --> 00:49:08,480
idea of Donald Winnicott, who 
talks about what being a good 

981
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:11,120
enough parent looks like. 
So he says we need to get it 

982
00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:13,520
right 1/3 of the time. 
That can be a little bit 

983
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:16,320
intimidating, but it's only a 
third we're allowed to get it 

984
00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:20,200
wrong 1/3 of the time. 
I find that so reassuring that 

985
00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:22,880
we can actually make mistakes 
and get it completely wrong as a

986
00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:26,160
parent 1/3 of the time. 
And then the crucial third is 

987
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:29,400
that last third where we are 
wondering about what we've done.

988
00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:31,600
It's the conversations you have 
with your partner where you say,

989
00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:33,680
do you think I was too hard on 
him this evening? 

990
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:36,600
I wonder if we need to find her 
some help with this. 

991
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:39,080
It's where you read parenting 
books, it's where you listen to 

992
00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:42,480
parenting podcasts and you get 
help and advice and you think it

993
00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:44,680
through. 
And if you add the wondering 

994
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:47,400
third together with the good 
third, you've got the good 

995
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:49,920
enough parent. 
And that feels achievable, 

996
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:52,520
realistic for me. 
If you listen to Be a Boy, 

997
00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:54,840
you're a good parent, basically.
Yeah, well done for. 

998
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:56,800
Everyone signed. 
Up you're doing fine. 

999
00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:58,520
You listen to the podcast, 
you're good and. 

1000
00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:00,440
That's all you need to do. 
Just that's what you need to do.

1001
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:03,320
Be a boy constantly and you, 
you're on it. 

1002
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:05,800
Thank you, Sarah. 
That was so insightful and 

1003
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:07,560
helpful. 
We're really grateful to you for

1004
00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:09,240
taking the time to come on. 
Thank you. 

1005
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:14,360
Thanks, Sarah. 
So Elliot, you very luckily have

1006
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:17,160
your parents close by and they 
do quite a bit childcare for 

1007
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:22,200
you, but they go to Grenada for 
three months every year. 

1008
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:23,680
What do you do when they're 
gone? 

1009
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:25,880
How do you look after yourself 
and your relationship? 

1010
00:50:26,120 --> 00:50:28,400
Well, I feel very sorry for 
myself. 

1011
00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:32,520
Going to Grenada is amazing for 
them, but it's not so great for 

1012
00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:35,040
us. 
Luckily, we have bubble. 

1013
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:38,680
Bubble provides us with 
emergency childcare, backup 

1014
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:42,040
childcare and ultimately the 
opportunity for us to have date 

1015
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:45,160
nights and also go to the spa 
every now and again. 

1016
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:47,920
Because us parents, we need to 
maintain our identity. 

1017
00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:51,000
We need to maintain our 
self-care and our relationships.

1018
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:54,560
So Bubble is incredible for 
where my parents jet off to 

1019
00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:58,480
Grenada. 
Find and book background checked

1020
00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:01,360
nannies and sitters. 
They can be with you in as 

1021
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:04,080
little as an hour, trusted by 
parents. 

1022
00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:08,080
You know, like us. 
Search Bubble Childcare in the 

1023
00:51:08,080 --> 00:51:14,040
App Store or Google Play Store. 
In a car. 

1024
00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:17,080
Houghton Boss is a senior 
safeguarding training consultant

1025
00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:19,480
for the NSPCC. 
She designs and delivers 

1026
00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:22,960
training to a wide range of 
organizations to support them in

1027
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:25,080
safeguarding children and young 
people. 

1028
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:27,600
She previously worked in 
juvenile justice and care 

1029
00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:31,160
settings in Northern Ireland and
the United States, and as a 

1030
00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:33,120
social worker in the 
Netherlands. 

1031
00:51:33,240 --> 00:51:36,200
She's been a supervisor at 
ChildLine, engaging with 

1032
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:39,240
children at risk. 
She's based in Northern Ireland,

1033
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:42,160
working across the UK and 
internationally. 

1034
00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:43,520
So it's just gone St. 
Patricks Day. 

1035
00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:48,120
We are delighted you could fit 
us in and we're so keen to talk 

1036
00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:49,840
to you. 
Thank you so much for joining 

1037
00:51:49,840 --> 00:51:50,560
us. 
How you doing my? 

1038
00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:53,400
Pleasure, My pleasure. 
Thank you so much for having me.

1039
00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:56,520
I'm honoured to be asked to come
and sleep with you folks today. 

1040
00:51:56,520 --> 00:51:58,160
So. 
You've got loads of professional

1041
00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:01,240
expertise and we're really 
interested to hear from you in 

1042
00:52:01,240 --> 00:52:04,560
regards to the impact you are 
seeing on boys from the 

1043
00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:08,440
influence of online misogynistic
influencers, the manosphere, 

1044
00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:11,880
harmful content and porn. 
What are you seeing from from 

1045
00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:12,520
your work? 
Yes. 

1046
00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:17,840
What we're seeing is that 
there's a variety of impacts and

1047
00:52:18,080 --> 00:52:22,000
it's really not just impacting 
on boys and it's impacting on 

1048
00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:26,600
all of us because boys and girls
are are, you know, part of our 

1049
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:28,640
society. 
Now I know that I'm, I'm my 

1050
00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:31,800
language is using that is very 
binary, but just for the 

1051
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:34,600
purposes of this, this 
conversation, we're going to, I 

1052
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:36,240
think it's important to kind of 
do that. 

1053
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:41,760
But boys are not necessarily 
seeking this information out. 

1054
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:46,080
They're very much maybe just 
being online, catching a video, 

1055
00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:49,000
and then the algorithm starts 
pushing it and then they're not 

1056
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:52,880
quite sure what to do with it. 
And then it can kind of go a 

1057
00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:55,240
number of different ways. 
Some of those boys might be 

1058
00:52:55,240 --> 00:52:58,360
interested in that. 
It might be aligning a little 

1059
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:01,200
bit with what they're seeing in 
their daily lives or what 

1060
00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:02,440
they're hearing from their 
friends. 

1061
00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:06,080
And some boys might be really 
rejecting it, but then are in a 

1062
00:53:06,080 --> 00:53:09,240
tough situation because other 
boys might be talking about 

1063
00:53:09,240 --> 00:53:11,800
this. 
And as an adolescent, part of 

1064
00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:14,080
growing up is is trying to fit 
in, right? 

1065
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:18,560
So that can make it very, very 
difficult to navigate that space

1066
00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:22,880
and kind of have a very staunch 
stance on that and kind of say, 

1067
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:26,080
no, I'm not going to engage with
that because again, there's just

1068
00:53:26,240 --> 00:53:28,360
kids, you know, forget that 
sometimes. 

1069
00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:32,360
And then obviously there's then 
that knock on impact on girls 

1070
00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:36,520
and how boys are engaging with 
young girls, for example. 

1071
00:53:36,720 --> 00:53:40,640
And there was some research done
by Vodafone actually in February

1072
00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:43,880
or this year and they were 
saying that I'm just looking at 

1073
00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:47,720
my notes here. 
They've got, um, 69% of boys 

1074
00:53:47,720 --> 00:53:50,760
have been exposed to online 
content that promotes misogyny 

1075
00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:54,160
and, and over half of them are 
aware and have engaged with the 

1076
00:53:54,160 --> 00:53:57,160
content from influencers with 
ties to the manosphere. 

1077
00:53:57,640 --> 00:54:01,680
And, and 59% of those boys were 
led to this content through 

1078
00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:04,920
innocent searches. 
So they weren't even looking for

1079
00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:07,880
it. 
It just kind of popped up and 

1080
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:11,520
and then one in five parents 
said that they had noticed a 

1081
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:15,720
gradual change in their young 
person's kind of language and 

1082
00:54:15,720 --> 00:54:18,360
demeanor. 
And this was the one that kind 

1083
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:22,040
of really blew me away was that 
70% of teachers are seeing an 

1084
00:54:22,040 --> 00:54:25,640
increase in kind of sexist 
language in the classroom. 

1085
00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:30,640
So we're kind of seeing that the
impact, as always, is a lot 

1086
00:54:30,640 --> 00:54:36,080
wider than just that boy who's 
seeing that that content online.

1087
00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:37,680
Yeah, and. 
It's really interesting where 

1088
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:40,440
you say the boys aren't 
necessarily looking for it, but 

1089
00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:42,760
it's presented to them. 
What would you say in terms of 

1090
00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:46,160
for parents, how can they go 
about safeguarding their kids? 

1091
00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:50,320
Are there effective ways of 
ensuring or hoping or, you know,

1092
00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:55,680
steps to take to limit the 
exposure of this content to our 

1093
00:54:55,680 --> 00:54:59,000
children it. 
Kind of starts with, we talk a 

1094
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:01,200
lot about this within 
professional settings. 

1095
00:55:01,200 --> 00:55:03,200
We talk about a safeguarding 
culture, right? 

1096
00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:06,920
But that exists at home too. 
And I think it's about creating 

1097
00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:10,120
an environment where we talk 
about things that are difficult.

1098
00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:14,040
And what does that look like? 
While I was working in 

1099
00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:18,080
ChildLine, for example, a lot of
kids, it's very raw, right? 

1100
00:55:18,080 --> 00:55:21,360
Because they're, they're calling
us and we don't know anything 

1101
00:55:21,360 --> 00:55:23,600
about them. 
We have no idea what's coming. 

1102
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:25,920
They've just decided to pick up 
the phone and talk. 

1103
00:55:26,120 --> 00:55:28,760
And we will always ask them 
like, well, have you, have you 

1104
00:55:28,760 --> 00:55:30,840
tried talking to your mommy or 
daddy about this? 

1105
00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:34,240
Like, and then, then they'll say
no, they'll never understand 

1106
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:37,720
because I don't ever see them 
having problems, right? 

1107
00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:41,720
And it really taught me 
something as a mom that it's 

1108
00:55:41,720 --> 00:55:46,040
important to show children and 
to model behavior around 

1109
00:55:46,160 --> 00:55:49,280
problems that you might be 
having, obviously within reason,

1110
00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:51,600
right? 
But kind of say, oh, I had this 

1111
00:55:51,600 --> 00:55:53,640
confrontation today. 
What do you think about that? 

1112
00:55:53,640 --> 00:55:55,800
I'm not quite sure what to do 
with that. 

1113
00:55:56,040 --> 00:55:59,000
And so engaging them and like, 
what do you think? 

1114
00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:00,480
And is this the right thing to 
say? 

1115
00:56:00,480 --> 00:56:03,160
Is that the right thing to do? 
Because then you're modeling. 

1116
00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:07,840
If I have a problem, the thing 
to do is to talk about it, 

1117
00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:10,280
right? 
And then you're creating that 

1118
00:56:10,280 --> 00:56:14,040
environment, that safeguarding 
culture within your home to kind

1119
00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:17,920
of say, yeah, there's stuff out 
there that's uncomfortable, but 

1120
00:56:17,920 --> 00:56:20,560
we're going to talk about it. 
And one of the things I very 

1121
00:56:20,560 --> 00:56:24,240
often say is that if we don't 
talk about it with our children,

1122
00:56:24,600 --> 00:56:27,960
somebody on the Internet will 
for sure, for sure. 

1123
00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:32,480
So we have to constantly be that
one step ahead and which is 

1124
00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:36,360
difficult because a lot of us, 
you know, I was born and raised 

1125
00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:38,120
in the 70's. 
The only thing I have to worry 

1126
00:56:38,120 --> 00:56:40,600
about or my parents had to worry
about was like, don't go to that

1127
00:56:40,600 --> 00:56:43,360
neighborhood, It's dodgy. 
That's it, that's it. 

1128
00:56:43,640 --> 00:56:46,600
He'll be home before night. 
And now parents have to navigate

1129
00:56:46,600 --> 00:56:49,880
that part of it. 
But also what's happening online

1130
00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:52,480
and what do I understand about 
what's happening online? 

1131
00:56:52,920 --> 00:56:58,960
And so there's lots to that, but
it takes a little bit more time,

1132
00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:01,440
which which is difficult for us 
because you're on with have that

1133
00:57:01,440 --> 00:57:04,160
time. 
But we need to make it. 

1134
00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:07,040
We need to sit down with their 
young people and go, what's 

1135
00:57:07,040 --> 00:57:08,400
that? 
What does that mean? 

1136
00:57:08,560 --> 00:57:10,280
Why is that funny? 
I don't get it. 

1137
00:57:10,560 --> 00:57:16,160
You know, that creates that 
sense of, yeah, I can talk about

1138
00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:20,320
this if I need to and. 
Is there practical things around

1139
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:24,000
online safety around different 
apps around access? 

1140
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:27,320
So my daughter has, she's only 9
and she has Roblox. 

1141
00:57:28,160 --> 00:57:30,520
She got her own laptop. 
Every time, every time she 

1142
00:57:30,520 --> 00:57:34,080
downloads something, it sends a 
notification to my phone or my 

1143
00:57:34,080 --> 00:57:36,040
wife's phone. 
And the other day she downloaded

1144
00:57:36,040 --> 00:57:38,520
a a game on PlayStation. 
And I was like, why did you 

1145
00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:40,120
download Fortnite? 
And she was like, oh, I forget 

1146
00:57:40,120 --> 00:57:43,840
you get the emails. 
But it's, it's a good way of us 

1147
00:57:43,840 --> 00:57:45,440
controlling, I guess, what she's
downloading. 

1148
00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:47,880
But what would you say in terms 
of that kind of stuff, like the 

1149
00:57:47,880 --> 00:57:52,520
practical tools that we can use 
to actually monitor, have a look

1150
00:57:52,520 --> 00:57:53,560
at what they're accessing. 
Yeah. 

1151
00:57:54,160 --> 00:57:58,440
It it's like anything, you know,
if, if you don't know how to use

1152
00:57:58,480 --> 00:58:00,680
the tools at your disposal, 
they're not going to work. 

1153
00:58:00,920 --> 00:58:04,440
So you need to do that research 
and see what makes sense, but 

1154
00:58:04,440 --> 00:58:06,080
also what makes sense for my 
child. 

1155
00:58:06,320 --> 00:58:10,720
And it also can depend on their 
age and it can also depend on, 

1156
00:58:10,760 --> 00:58:13,720
you know, neurodivergency. 
Some young people who are 

1157
00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:18,400
neurodivergent respond very well
and social media and apps like 

1158
00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:21,760
YouTube, for example, can can 
provide content that is very 

1159
00:58:21,760 --> 00:58:24,880
soothing to them. 
So you might have to deal with 

1160
00:58:24,880 --> 00:58:29,040
that very differently for that 
child as opposed to a young 

1161
00:58:29,040 --> 00:58:31,520
person who's maybe a little bit 
older, who's not, you know, on 

1162
00:58:31,520 --> 00:58:33,840
the spectrum or anything like 
that and their level of 

1163
00:58:33,840 --> 00:58:36,640
understanding. 
So again, it's about how well do

1164
00:58:36,640 --> 00:58:39,040
I know my child and what makes 
sense for us? 

1165
00:58:39,160 --> 00:58:43,320
But ultimately, knowing that, 
you know, you can contact your 

1166
00:58:43,680 --> 00:58:46,400
Internet provider and let them 
know that the devices for a 

1167
00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:48,600
child, you know, that might lock
some stuff down. 

1168
00:58:48,880 --> 00:58:53,440
You can get, you know, filters 
on your phones, you can get 

1169
00:58:53,440 --> 00:58:55,760
blocks on your phones. 
Like a lot of these apps, you 

1170
00:58:55,760 --> 00:58:59,560
know, they're 13 plus. 
And so it's again, about 

1171
00:58:59,800 --> 00:59:04,240
educating yourself about what 
these platforms are, how 

1172
00:59:04,240 --> 00:59:07,600
children can use them. 
We're by no means saying that, 

1173
00:59:07,720 --> 00:59:10,160
you know, kids shouldn't have 
phones or, you know, shouldn't 

1174
00:59:10,160 --> 00:59:12,720
be on social media because 
that's that's just not the world

1175
00:59:12,920 --> 00:59:16,280
that we live in. 
But it's about us as parents 

1176
00:59:16,280 --> 00:59:20,760
being very, very proactive in 
thinking, what parameters do I 

1177
00:59:20,760 --> 00:59:24,600
need to put in for my child, not
just technologically, but also 

1178
00:59:24,600 --> 00:59:27,440
in terms of that conversation. 
What are you looking at? 

1179
00:59:27,640 --> 00:59:30,400
How long are you looking at it? 
Yeah, because some of those 

1180
00:59:30,400 --> 00:59:32,680
apps, like you were saying, 
Elliot, you know, they can tell 

1181
00:59:32,680 --> 00:59:35,200
you that, you know, you've been 
on TikTok for 20 hours. 

1182
00:59:35,320 --> 00:59:38,560
That may or may not be a 
personal statement for me. 

1183
00:59:39,520 --> 00:59:42,800
You know, you have those things 
that are, that are available to 

1184
00:59:42,800 --> 00:59:46,000
you, but then use them, talk to 
your child about that and talk 

1185
00:59:46,000 --> 00:59:50,720
about why those boundaries are 
so important and because that's 

1186
00:59:50,720 --> 00:59:52,920
ultimately our job, too, with 
parents. 

1187
00:59:52,920 --> 00:59:58,800
Yeah. 
Of course, what my my kids, my 

1188
00:59:58,800 --> 01:00:02,080
my partner is in charge of the 
IT in the house, right, because 

1189
01:00:02,200 --> 01:00:04,680
I'm a feminist. 
But you know, there, there are 

1190
01:00:04,680 --> 01:00:06,720
jobs that are his take the bins 
out. 

1191
01:00:06,760 --> 01:00:11,480
You deal with the tech. 
But, and we thought all of our 

1192
01:00:11,480 --> 01:00:14,440
technology was locked down. 
It had full parental controls 

1193
01:00:14,440 --> 01:00:16,040
over it. 
We were really confident. 

1194
01:00:16,160 --> 01:00:18,680
And somebody said try Googling. 
I'm not going to say the name of

1195
01:00:18,680 --> 01:00:22,600
the website, but a website, 
pornography website, try 

1196
01:00:22,600 --> 01:00:24,160
Googling it, see if you can get 
into it. 

1197
01:00:24,200 --> 01:00:27,840
And I did and I got straight in 
and I went, I've been since 

1198
01:00:27,840 --> 01:00:30,040
then, I've been to friends 
houses and talked to them about 

1199
01:00:30,040 --> 01:00:32,640
it and they'd say, Oh no, we're 
completely locked down. 

1200
01:00:32,640 --> 01:00:34,840
There's no way my kids could get
on anything. 

1201
01:00:34,840 --> 01:00:37,320
And I say try Googling this 
website and they Google it and 

1202
01:00:37,320 --> 01:00:40,920
they get straight in and it's a 
horrible website with very dark 

1203
01:00:40,920 --> 01:00:44,400
things on it. 
What, what would you say parents

1204
01:00:44,400 --> 01:00:47,080
should be checking to, do you 
think? 

1205
01:00:47,080 --> 01:00:50,000
I mean, firstly, would you 
encourage parents to do that, to

1206
01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:52,800
do their own checking to see if 
they can get into certain 

1207
01:00:52,800 --> 01:00:55,720
websites themselves? 
I mean, I will say actually as 

1208
01:00:55,720 --> 01:01:00,280
well, at the school my eldest 
goes to, somebody in the his 

1209
01:01:00,400 --> 01:01:05,720
class said try Googling 69. 
And they did and they again saw 

1210
01:01:05,800 --> 01:01:10,760
content relating to not the 
numerical 69, shall we say. 

1211
01:01:11,520 --> 01:01:15,160
And that was at the school where
they obviously believe they have

1212
01:01:15,160 --> 01:01:16,920
everything completely locked 
down. 

1213
01:01:18,520 --> 01:01:21,560
Ultimately, it's left me feeling
very uncertain that you can 

1214
01:01:21,560 --> 01:01:26,560
never completely lock a device 
down and and that you can never 

1215
01:01:26,560 --> 01:01:29,400
keep keep your kids completely 
safe from seeing that sort of 

1216
01:01:29,400 --> 01:01:32,080
content. 
What advice would you give? 

1217
01:01:32,280 --> 01:01:34,640
Definitely that. 
Don't be complacent. 

1218
01:01:35,160 --> 01:01:39,040
And there is, you know, 
algorithms and the online world 

1219
01:01:39,040 --> 01:01:42,320
is changing all the time, 
sometimes while you're looking 

1220
01:01:42,320 --> 01:01:45,520
at it, right. 
So there's that, that element of

1221
01:01:45,600 --> 01:01:50,080
nothing is 100%. 
And that's a really scary place 

1222
01:01:50,240 --> 01:01:53,880
to be as a parent. 
But you know, kids walking down 

1223
01:01:53,880 --> 01:01:55,920
the street isn't always 100% 
safe. 

1224
01:01:56,120 --> 01:01:59,440
Equally, being online is not 
always 100% safe. 

1225
01:01:59,440 --> 01:02:03,200
Exactly that that, that example 
that you've given and, and how 

1226
01:02:03,200 --> 01:02:07,400
do you use filters like what we 
noticed as well for children who

1227
01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:10,320
were accessing child line, for 
example, they couldn't access 

1228
01:02:10,320 --> 01:02:13,120
child line at home, so they were
accessing it at school. 

1229
01:02:13,280 --> 01:02:17,440
But there is reference and child
line around sexual abuse and 

1230
01:02:17,440 --> 01:02:20,120
sexual assault. 
But because the word sex was 

1231
01:02:20,120 --> 01:02:23,040
banned and the filters in 
school, they couldn't access it.

1232
01:02:23,200 --> 01:02:26,760
So now what do we do? 
Right? 

1233
01:02:26,760 --> 01:02:29,760
So it's about recognizing what 
tools do we have at our 

1234
01:02:29,760 --> 01:02:33,160
disposal, technologically 
speaking, let's use them. 

1235
01:02:33,440 --> 01:02:36,000
But let's not just rely on those
things. 

1236
01:02:36,080 --> 01:02:41,120
Let's also create that culture 
of this stuff is probably not 

1237
01:02:41,120 --> 01:02:43,440
OK. 
And if you see it, what do you 

1238
01:02:43,440 --> 01:02:45,600
need to do about it? 
How do you talk to me about 

1239
01:02:45,600 --> 01:02:47,520
that? 
It's OK to talk to me about 

1240
01:02:47,520 --> 01:02:49,640
that. 
And and that that bit about 

1241
01:02:49,640 --> 01:02:55,280
educating yourself around what 
what's what's around language 

1242
01:02:55,280 --> 01:02:57,360
even changes. 
I don't know if you folks 

1243
01:02:57,360 --> 01:03:01,760
noticed, like, I sent something 
to my daughters because I think 

1244
01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:08,360
I'm hilarious and they sent like
crying emojis, I would say, but 

1245
01:03:08,360 --> 01:03:11,120
they said that's what a laughing
emoji emoji is now. 

1246
01:03:11,120 --> 01:03:15,840
And I was like, OK, and did 
that, you know, that's how 

1247
01:03:15,840 --> 01:03:18,400
quickly things change. 
So it's about having those 

1248
01:03:18,400 --> 01:03:23,480
conversations with your kids and
and creating an environment 

1249
01:03:23,480 --> 01:03:28,360
where this is what we do when 
you're on your phone, give you 

1250
01:03:28,360 --> 01:03:29,880
privacy. 
But every now and again, I'll be

1251
01:03:29,880 --> 01:03:32,680
like, who you talking to? 
What's happening? 

1252
01:03:33,040 --> 01:03:33,760
Yeah. 
What's going on? 

1253
01:03:34,720 --> 01:03:38,480
Do you think it's OK? 
I'm my son doesn't have a phone 

1254
01:03:38,480 --> 01:03:40,640
yet, but when he has one, I'm 
going to say to him, I'm going 

1255
01:03:40,640 --> 01:03:44,720
to do spot checks on you. 
I'm going to at any given point,

1256
01:03:44,720 --> 01:03:47,840
you can only get this phone. 
If at any given point I can take

1257
01:03:47,840 --> 01:03:50,000
that phone off you and look 
through what you've been, who 

1258
01:03:50,000 --> 01:03:52,720
you've been talking to, what 
you've been saying and, and what

1259
01:03:52,720 --> 01:03:56,640
you've been looking at, which I 
have talked with the parents 

1260
01:03:56,640 --> 01:03:57,920
about it. 
And some are like, oh, no, 

1261
01:03:57,920 --> 01:04:00,000
that's too far. 
You, you're invading their 

1262
01:04:00,000 --> 01:04:03,280
privacy. 
But I feel that's the only way I

1263
01:04:03,280 --> 01:04:06,840
will feel confident with him 
having any sort of device. 

1264
01:04:06,840 --> 01:04:10,240
What do you think about that? 
I think it's like with anything,

1265
01:04:10,240 --> 01:04:15,120
context is everything, right? 
So if we're explaining that the 

1266
01:04:15,120 --> 01:04:19,280
reason that I'm doing this is 
because there's stuff around 

1267
01:04:19,400 --> 01:04:22,160
that I don't necessarily want 
you to have access to. 

1268
01:04:22,400 --> 01:04:25,560
So this isn't about me 
disrespecting your right to 

1269
01:04:25,560 --> 01:04:27,880
privacy. 
What you absolutely have. 

1270
01:04:27,960 --> 01:04:32,520
This is my job to keep you safe.
I need to understand what's on 

1271
01:04:32,520 --> 01:04:34,880
your phone at what kind of 
messages you're getting. 

1272
01:04:34,960 --> 01:04:38,120
But again, if we're having those
conversations with kids about, 

1273
01:04:38,120 --> 01:04:40,720
you know, who has your phone 
number, who do you give your 

1274
01:04:40,720 --> 01:04:43,680
phone number to? 
Because it's so it's as easy as 

1275
01:04:43,680 --> 01:04:47,040
I've now been put in a group 
with people that I don't know 

1276
01:04:47,040 --> 01:04:49,680
who now can all see my phone 
number, right? 

1277
01:04:49,680 --> 01:04:54,280
So that happens all the time And
and I sometimes happens, you 

1278
01:04:54,280 --> 01:04:57,040
know, without your permission. 
So how do we change those 

1279
01:04:57,040 --> 01:05:00,120
settings? 
How do we make sure that kids 

1280
01:05:00,120 --> 01:05:02,960
are talking to us saying I'm, 
I'm in a group chat now, but I 

1281
01:05:02,960 --> 01:05:05,480
can see everybody's numbers, I 
don't want them to see mine. 

1282
01:05:06,000 --> 01:05:08,640
Educate yourself about how we 
can take that off. 

1283
01:05:09,720 --> 01:05:11,520
But obviously those aren't the 
only sites. 

1284
01:05:11,520 --> 01:05:15,000
You could have gaming sites, for
example, about how do I put in 

1285
01:05:15,000 --> 01:05:18,880
those controls there? 
Because, again, we might think 

1286
01:05:19,640 --> 01:05:23,000
my kids upstairs playing a video
game, they're maybe not doing 

1287
01:05:23,000 --> 01:05:27,800
that on their own, right? 
Who's literally in that room 

1288
01:05:27,800 --> 01:05:30,600
with my child right now? 
How are they speaking to them? 

1289
01:05:31,000 --> 01:05:33,440
You know, take that time. 
It doesn't always have to be, 

1290
01:05:33,440 --> 01:05:37,240
like a formal thing, you know, 
come into their room with a cup 

1291
01:05:37,240 --> 01:05:38,240
of tea. 
OK. 

1292
01:05:39,040 --> 01:05:40,680
What are you playing? 
Who's playing? 

1293
01:05:40,920 --> 01:05:41,920
Yeah. 
What are you, What are we 

1294
01:05:41,920 --> 01:05:44,440
talking about? 
Can I hear it's about inserting 

1295
01:05:44,440 --> 01:05:47,920
yourself in your child's life, 
which is really difficult for 

1296
01:05:47,920 --> 01:05:51,680
teenagers because the whole 
point of being a teenager is 

1297
01:05:51,680 --> 01:05:54,520
you're finding your own way. 
You're finding where you fit in 

1298
01:05:54,520 --> 01:05:58,000
with your clothes, with your 
language, with your music. 

1299
01:05:58,000 --> 01:06:01,080
You're finding who you are. 
And you need that, that chance 

1300
01:06:01,080 --> 01:06:03,920
to kind of extricate yourself 
from that, that family dynamic, 

1301
01:06:04,160 --> 01:06:07,560
which is natural and normal and 
proper and, and healthy. 

1302
01:06:09,040 --> 01:06:12,120
What there's that aspect of 
you're still also a child in my 

1303
01:06:12,120 --> 01:06:14,320
responsibility, you know? 
I love that advice because I 

1304
01:06:14,320 --> 01:06:17,520
feel like as a society, we 
haven't necessarily been told to

1305
01:06:17,520 --> 01:06:19,640
do that so much. 
You know, I posted today on my 

1306
01:06:19,640 --> 01:06:23,440
LinkedIn about limiting screen 
time, and I had a message from 

1307
01:06:23,440 --> 01:06:24,840
my dad who said, you know, I 
love your work. 

1308
01:06:24,840 --> 01:06:28,280
I love what you talk about. 
But I sent this to my wife and 

1309
01:06:28,280 --> 01:06:31,160
she said that that limiting 
screen time thing feels like 

1310
01:06:31,160 --> 01:06:33,080
we're taking power away from my 
children. 

1311
01:06:33,400 --> 01:06:38,200
And it feels like we are 
discouraging trust. 

1312
01:06:38,200 --> 01:06:41,400
And I kind of went back and 
said, look, of course we need to

1313
01:06:41,400 --> 01:06:43,840
lead with trust and openness. 
But at the same time, we're 

1314
01:06:43,840 --> 01:06:45,720
still their parents. 
And there still needs to be 

1315
01:06:45,720 --> 01:06:48,440
boundaries. 
And we still need to be OK with 

1316
01:06:48,680 --> 01:06:52,720
telling them to do things that 
they may not like to hear, but 

1317
01:06:52,720 --> 01:06:55,400
we know are good for them. 
What are your views on like 

1318
01:06:55,400 --> 01:06:58,160
limiting screen time, for 
example, You can't take your 

1319
01:06:58,160 --> 01:07:01,520
phone to bed. 
No phones at the dinner table, 

1320
01:07:01,680 --> 01:07:03,560
et cetera. 
Like what were your views on on 

1321
01:07:03,560 --> 01:07:06,440
parents doing that? 
I think it it, it kind of goes 

1322
01:07:06,440 --> 01:07:09,600
back and I research just tells 
us that, you know, that kids get

1323
01:07:09,600 --> 01:07:14,880
stuck online watching, you know,
social media and, and it's 

1324
01:07:14,880 --> 01:07:19,040
designed to keep you there. 
That's why it's so addictive. 

1325
01:07:19,040 --> 01:07:23,640
So how do we help them manage 
that impulse? 

1326
01:07:23,640 --> 01:07:26,760
How do we help them do that? 
And, you know, you can try 

1327
01:07:26,760 --> 01:07:29,040
different things. 
You know, you can say, let's 

1328
01:07:29,040 --> 01:07:30,840
make a deal. 
You're not going to be online 

1329
01:07:30,840 --> 01:07:33,880
after 10, depending on age. 
Yeah, whatever time. 

1330
01:07:34,080 --> 01:07:36,200
And if they're able to do that, 
we're good. 

1331
01:07:36,360 --> 01:07:39,320
If they're not, you're breaking 
a boundary in a rule that I've 

1332
01:07:39,320 --> 01:07:41,160
given you. 
So now I'm going to take your 

1333
01:07:41,160 --> 01:07:43,840
phone away at 10 and you'll get 
it back in the morning. 

1334
01:07:44,840 --> 01:07:48,880
It's about helping them regulate
themselves as well within an 

1335
01:07:48,880 --> 01:07:53,520
online world, which is really 
difficult for us as, as parents.

1336
01:07:53,520 --> 01:07:57,640
How many times do we get stuck 
scrolling and like, then two 

1337
01:07:57,640 --> 01:07:59,440
hours later you're like, oh, OK,
what? 

1338
01:08:00,480 --> 01:08:02,680
It's, that's what it's designed 
to do. 

1339
01:08:02,720 --> 01:08:05,880
So again, being honest about 
that and having conversations 

1340
01:08:05,880 --> 01:08:08,920
about that, that that's not 
healthy because you need to 

1341
01:08:08,920 --> 01:08:11,200
sleep and you need to do other 
things. 

1342
01:08:11,200 --> 01:08:15,120
And and my personal opinion 
again, creating that 

1343
01:08:15,120 --> 01:08:18,000
safeguarding culture within our 
family is we don't have our 

1344
01:08:18,000 --> 01:08:23,960
phones on the dinner table them.
I I had my Barnet done 

1345
01:08:23,960 --> 01:08:25,880
yesterday. 
Now this is relevant. 

1346
01:08:25,960 --> 01:08:30,720
I'm not just showing off. 
And my hairdresser who is 

1347
01:08:30,720 --> 01:08:35,120
brilliant and he's in his 20s, 
he has a baby on the way. 

1348
01:08:35,359 --> 01:08:38,720
I talked to him about 
adolescence and asked him his 

1349
01:08:38,720 --> 01:08:40,840
thoughts on it and we ended up 
getting into a really good 

1350
01:08:40,840 --> 01:08:42,720
conversation. 
He had grown up with screens. 

1351
01:08:42,720 --> 01:08:45,720
I hadn't. 
And I asked him what he'd seen 

1352
01:08:45,720 --> 01:08:50,439
when he was younger, Violent, 
horrific content. 

1353
01:08:50,439 --> 01:08:52,920
And he said as soon as he went 
to secondary school, so year 

1354
01:08:52,920 --> 01:08:56,120
seven, he was exposed to all 
sorts of horrible stuff, like 

1355
01:08:56,120 --> 01:09:00,600
really horrible stuff, ISIS, 
beheadings, really graphic, 

1356
01:09:00,600 --> 01:09:05,080
violent porn. 
And he said, I saw it, but I 

1357
01:09:05,080 --> 01:09:07,399
just went, oh, well, that's 
horrible. 

1358
01:09:07,439 --> 01:09:10,479
And he said, yeah, it made me 
feel sick, but but I just 

1359
01:09:10,479 --> 01:09:12,399
rejected it. 
I just was like, well, I don't 

1360
01:09:12,399 --> 01:09:14,920
want to look at that, but that's
just awful. 

1361
01:09:14,920 --> 01:09:16,000
Why would I want to look at 
that? 

1362
01:09:16,000 --> 01:09:19,000
So he saw it, felt sick, moved 
on. 

1363
01:09:19,240 --> 01:09:22,399
And he said it it didn't damage 
him at all because he was like, 

1364
01:09:22,399 --> 01:09:25,640
I know the difference between 
right and wrong and I know that 

1365
01:09:25,640 --> 01:09:28,319
that's just not very nice. 
I said, did you speak to your 

1366
01:09:28,319 --> 01:09:29,920
parents about it? 
He said, of course I didn't. 

1367
01:09:30,160 --> 01:09:32,680
I said, did you speak to friends
about it and how it had made you

1368
01:09:32,680 --> 01:09:34,080
feel? 
He said, no, of course I didn't.

1369
01:09:34,240 --> 01:09:38,760
I just absorbed it, felt sick 
about it and and moved forward. 

1370
01:09:39,240 --> 01:09:44,439
And I found it very reassuring 
because I think after watching 

1371
01:09:44,439 --> 01:09:47,520
adolescence, we can all be 
really terrified that once our 

1372
01:09:47,520 --> 01:09:50,319
kids have seen something really 
disturbing that it's going to 

1373
01:09:50,319 --> 01:09:52,760
affect them for the rest of 
their lives. 

1374
01:09:52,760 --> 01:09:56,280
And actually, his message to me 
was, no, that's not the case. 

1375
01:09:56,640 --> 01:10:00,240
But he was very careful to say. 
But I didn't grow up with Andrew

1376
01:10:00,240 --> 01:10:04,320
Tate and the manosphere in cell 
groups were not part of my 

1377
01:10:04,320 --> 01:10:07,280
youth. 
It was just really graphic, 

1378
01:10:07,280 --> 01:10:09,840
horrible content that I was 
exposed to. 

1379
01:10:10,240 --> 01:10:13,720
And it does feel to me there was
a difference between kids seeing

1380
01:10:13,720 --> 01:10:16,600
these disgusting things on the 
Internet and then being 

1381
01:10:16,600 --> 01:10:20,040
brainwashed by the likes of 
these Intel groups and the 

1382
01:10:20,040 --> 01:10:21,160
manosphere. 
Yeah. 

1383
01:10:21,600 --> 01:10:24,080
And there's, there's a process 
there too, right? 

1384
01:10:24,080 --> 01:10:27,840
Because if, if it, if it a young
person sees something very 

1385
01:10:28,520 --> 01:10:33,360
graphic that that shock factor 
could put them off. 

1386
01:10:33,520 --> 01:10:37,280
But it's those gradual little 
things that they're hearing here

1387
01:10:37,280 --> 01:10:39,800
and there where their boundaries
are starting to crumble a little

1388
01:10:39,800 --> 01:10:41,120
bit. 
You know, their friends talk 

1389
01:10:41,120 --> 01:10:43,360
about women in a certain way and
they think it's funny. 

1390
01:10:43,360 --> 01:10:46,560
Oh, and, you know, somebody 
maybe in their family says 

1391
01:10:46,560 --> 01:10:50,440
something rude about, you know, 
a woman or describes a woman in 

1392
01:10:50,440 --> 01:10:52,680
a certain way. 
They're picking up on all of 

1393
01:10:52,680 --> 01:10:55,520
these little signals. 
And I think that we forget that 

1394
01:10:55,520 --> 01:10:58,520
sometimes with teenagers 
because, you know, they're, 

1395
01:10:58,520 --> 01:11:00,960
they're sometimes, you know, 
bigger than we are. 

1396
01:11:01,200 --> 01:11:05,160
They're walking around and and 
you think that they're adults 

1397
01:11:05,160 --> 01:11:07,320
and they're not. 
They're still children. 

1398
01:11:07,320 --> 01:11:10,800
They're still sponges. 
Their brains are processing 

1399
01:11:10,800 --> 01:11:13,480
everything all the time, all the
messages. 

1400
01:11:13,480 --> 01:11:16,320
And again, part of the 
adolescent brain is figuring out

1401
01:11:16,400 --> 01:11:19,280
what does the world look like 
and what is my place in it, 

1402
01:11:20,520 --> 01:11:23,800
right. 
And if you don't have a secure 

1403
01:11:23,800 --> 01:11:27,120
base, then you will try to find 
somewhere where you belong. 

1404
01:11:27,200 --> 01:11:30,040
You're going to try and find 
somewhere where you feel seen 

1405
01:11:30,560 --> 01:11:36,280
and unsupported and and there is
that insecurity again, natural, 

1406
01:11:36,280 --> 01:11:38,480
normal part of being an 
adolescent is that you're going 

1407
01:11:38,480 --> 01:11:40,120
to feel insecure. 
You're going to think you look 

1408
01:11:40,120 --> 01:11:42,320
weird, you're going to think 
you're not the prettiest, you're

1409
01:11:42,320 --> 01:11:44,880
going to think you're not the 
muscliest, all of those things. 

1410
01:11:45,040 --> 01:11:48,400
And if there's nothing on the 
other side in terms of your 

1411
01:11:48,400 --> 01:11:51,840
family and your environment 
supporting you, saying no, we 

1412
01:11:51,840 --> 01:11:53,520
love you. 
We want to hear what's going on 

1413
01:11:53,520 --> 01:11:55,080
for you. 
Were interested in you. 

1414
01:11:55,080 --> 01:11:56,920
You know, we're interested in 
your dreams. 

1415
01:11:57,440 --> 01:12:00,400
Not every child has that. 
So they're going to look for 

1416
01:12:00,400 --> 01:12:04,240
something where they might feel 
seen and that might feel hard. 

1417
01:12:04,960 --> 01:12:09,080
And it's just so, so difficult. 
And we saw in that that show 

1418
01:12:09,080 --> 01:12:12,960
adolescence, there were lovely 
people that were just parents, 

1419
01:12:13,160 --> 01:12:15,040
you know, doing their best, 
working hard. 

1420
01:12:15,720 --> 01:12:19,920
And it's, it's a, it's a 
difficult space to navigate. 

1421
01:12:20,040 --> 01:12:23,120
But as I said earlier, if we 
don't talk to our kids about it,

1422
01:12:23,120 --> 01:12:26,280
somebody on the Internet will. 
So Inuka, if you know, at the 

1423
01:12:26,280 --> 01:12:29,200
beginning, you said parents are 
seeing the impact on their 

1424
01:12:29,200 --> 01:12:30,520
children. 
They're acting differently, 

1425
01:12:30,520 --> 01:12:33,560
their sons having different 
views, maybe being a bit more 

1426
01:12:33,560 --> 01:12:36,800
reclusive. 
What should they do? 

1427
01:12:36,800 --> 01:12:38,920
What what happens? 
I've already seen the content. 

1428
01:12:39,200 --> 01:12:42,160
We think they're being 
influenced by these influences, 

1429
01:12:42,160 --> 01:12:43,920
these Intel groups. 
What next? 

1430
01:12:43,920 --> 01:12:46,000
What would your advice be for 
parents to do? 

1431
01:12:46,000 --> 01:12:48,240
Yeah. 
And, and some of those signs can

1432
01:12:48,240 --> 01:12:52,000
be about, you know, as you said,
withdrawing, they're on their 

1433
01:12:52,000 --> 01:12:55,440
phone even more. 
They're secretive around being 

1434
01:12:55,440 --> 01:12:58,760
on their phone. 
But equally they can be really 

1435
01:12:58,760 --> 01:13:03,200
excited and really happy, right?
So all of a sudden their life is

1436
01:13:03,240 --> 01:13:05,280
amazing. 
And we love to see that, of 

1437
01:13:05,280 --> 01:13:09,000
course, but it's like what, 
what, what flipped that switch, 

1438
01:13:09,040 --> 01:13:11,520
right? 
So any kind of change in the 

1439
01:13:11,520 --> 01:13:14,080
child's behavior, significant 
child change in the child's 

1440
01:13:14,080 --> 01:13:18,520
behavior, we need to clock in on
that him that necessitates us 

1441
01:13:18,520 --> 01:13:20,560
really understanding our 
children though, right? 

1442
01:13:20,760 --> 01:13:22,520
Because now this is not normal 
for you. 

1443
01:13:22,720 --> 01:13:24,560
And I can see this is not normal
for you. 

1444
01:13:25,560 --> 01:13:30,480
So a really important thing, as 
most of us know, is stay calm. 

1445
01:13:30,600 --> 01:13:33,280
Might not feel calm, but we're 
going to fake it till we make 

1446
01:13:33,280 --> 01:13:34,680
it. 
And we're going to freak out 

1447
01:13:34,680 --> 01:13:36,840
with our friends. 
We're going to freak out with 

1448
01:13:36,840 --> 01:13:39,280
our partner. 
But right now with my child, I 

1449
01:13:39,280 --> 01:13:42,840
am calm as the deep blue sea. 
And we're just going to be like,

1450
01:13:42,840 --> 01:13:45,240
what did you mean by where? 
Did you hear that? 

1451
01:13:46,040 --> 01:13:48,480
OK, that's interesting. 
Does that make sense to you? 

1452
01:13:48,760 --> 01:13:53,000
Just have that that conversation
and very often having that 

1453
01:13:53,000 --> 01:13:56,520
conversation does not mean 
sitting down with a child. 

1454
01:13:56,520 --> 01:13:59,760
We often hear that, don't we? 
An advice from from different 

1455
01:13:59,920 --> 01:14:03,480
sources, like sit down with your
child and talk to them about it.

1456
01:14:03,800 --> 01:14:06,760
The best way to shut down a 
conversation with a child is sit

1457
01:14:06,760 --> 01:14:09,600
down with them face to face. 
They will not talk to you. 

1458
01:14:09,680 --> 01:14:14,080
They won't do something. 
We're going to go for a drive 

1459
01:14:14,200 --> 01:14:15,280
when it gets in the chicken 
Nuggets. 

1460
01:14:15,360 --> 01:14:16,280
Awesome. 
Let's go. 

1461
01:14:16,520 --> 01:14:18,920
He's you know what you said the 
other day about that thing? 

1462
01:14:18,920 --> 01:14:21,000
I've been thinking about it, 
yeah. 

1463
01:14:21,000 --> 01:14:24,080
And you're both kind of sitting 
in the car traveling along, or 

1464
01:14:24,080 --> 01:14:26,960
you're doing something, you 
know, you're playing pool or 

1465
01:14:26,960 --> 01:14:29,080
you're fishing. 
I don't know. 

1466
01:14:29,840 --> 01:14:34,800
You're giving space to the thing
that's freaking you out to the 

1467
01:14:34,800 --> 01:14:38,360
child in a way that is safe and 
accessible for them. 

1468
01:14:38,600 --> 01:14:43,240
Because your child might not in 
that moment be prepared to say 

1469
01:14:43,240 --> 01:14:46,640
anything, but they will have 
heard you because the message 

1470
01:14:46,640 --> 01:14:50,160
here is you're interested. 
You care about me and you 

1471
01:14:50,160 --> 01:14:52,080
noticed. 
And they might need a little bit

1472
01:14:52,080 --> 01:14:54,720
of time to percolate on it. 
Give them that time and then 

1473
01:14:54,720 --> 01:14:58,360
come back to it. 
But definitely help them open up

1474
01:14:58,360 --> 01:15:01,640
in that way by creating that 
environment where we can talk 

1475
01:15:01,640 --> 01:15:06,880
about things and and also 
knowing where to get help for 

1476
01:15:06,880 --> 01:15:09,240
them. 
So you might not want to talk to

1477
01:15:09,240 --> 01:15:11,640
me, but you can call ChildLine 
or have you talked to your 

1478
01:15:11,640 --> 01:15:16,280
friends about it? 
So again, it's about opening up 

1479
01:15:16,440 --> 01:15:19,760
that conversation and the 
possibility of that conversation

1480
01:15:20,240 --> 01:15:24,240
and also being educated 
yourself, Know what the 

1481
01:15:24,240 --> 01:15:29,440
manosphere is, understand what 
misogyny looks like, understand 

1482
01:15:29,440 --> 01:15:32,800
where else that child might see 
that in the family or in their 

1483
01:15:32,800 --> 01:15:36,560
environment and address it. 
Address it. 

1484
01:15:36,720 --> 01:15:38,960
So calling them out if they're 
saying something or they're 

1485
01:15:38,960 --> 01:15:41,200
making comments about women in a
certain way. 

1486
01:15:42,120 --> 01:15:45,720
And it can be very powerful as 
well that that challenge comes 

1487
01:15:45,720 --> 01:15:48,320
from an important male figure in
their life. 

1488
01:15:48,520 --> 01:15:51,000
You know, like, whoa, what? 
What was that? 

1489
01:15:51,040 --> 01:15:56,640
Where did that come from them? 
My eldest had that statistic, 

1490
01:15:56,640 --> 01:15:59,840
the Channel 4 research that Gen.
about Gen. 

1491
01:15:59,840 --> 01:16:02,920
Z and whether they think 
feminism has gone too far. 

1492
01:16:02,920 --> 01:16:05,920
It was something like 48% of 
thought. 

1493
01:16:05,920 --> 01:16:08,720
Jen said boys think feminism has
gone too far and now boys are 

1494
01:16:08,720 --> 01:16:11,080
experiencing sexism. 
And he heard it on the radio and

1495
01:16:11,080 --> 01:16:12,520
he said to me, I agree with 
that. 

1496
01:16:12,960 --> 01:16:14,440
And so we had a conversation 
about it. 

1497
01:16:14,440 --> 01:16:17,440
But I posted about it and said 
what would you do in that 

1498
01:16:17,440 --> 01:16:20,000
scenario? 
Lots and lots of people said to 

1499
01:16:20,000 --> 01:16:23,680
me, I would have sat down with 
him and explained the patriarchy

1500
01:16:23,960 --> 01:16:28,960
and explained the history of 
women's fight for equality. 

1501
01:16:29,080 --> 01:16:32,440
And to me that that didn't feel 
like the right solution. 

1502
01:16:32,440 --> 01:16:35,120
Because actually screaming 
patriarchy in his face when he 

1503
01:16:35,120 --> 01:16:38,200
was telling me something that 
was his experience of the world 

1504
01:16:38,200 --> 01:16:40,920
felt like the opposite of what I
should be doing. 

1505
01:16:41,200 --> 01:16:44,360
And even though I am staunch 
feminist who spent the last 10 

1506
01:16:44,360 --> 01:16:47,400
years fighting for women's 
rights, so it's really hard for 

1507
01:16:47,400 --> 01:16:49,800
me not to do that. 
Instead, I asked him what he 

1508
01:16:49,800 --> 01:16:53,720
meant and asked him to elaborate
on where that had come from and 

1509
01:16:53,720 --> 01:16:55,200
empathize with what he was 
saying. 

1510
01:16:55,200 --> 01:16:57,920
Because actually that is his 
what he was saying is his real 

1511
01:16:57,920 --> 01:16:59,960
experience. 
Me telling him that that's not 

1512
01:16:59,960 --> 01:17:02,920
true would would be 
counterproductive to me. 

1513
01:17:04,000 --> 01:17:06,800
What? 
What would you say parents 

1514
01:17:06,800 --> 01:17:08,160
should do in that? 
Yeah. 

1515
01:17:08,600 --> 01:17:11,680
Totally agree with that. 
You know, I always try to put 

1516
01:17:11,680 --> 01:17:14,880
myself in the situation. 
If somebody was talking to me 

1517
01:17:14,880 --> 01:17:17,760
like I'm planning to talk to you
right now, how would I respond? 

1518
01:17:18,000 --> 01:17:21,040
Am I going to shut it down or am
I going to engage with it? 

1519
01:17:21,240 --> 01:17:25,080
And it's so important for 
children to hear that their 

1520
01:17:25,080 --> 01:17:27,840
experience is valid and 
something that they are allowed 

1521
01:17:27,840 --> 01:17:30,800
to talk about. 
Whether we agree or not about it

1522
01:17:31,120 --> 01:17:34,120
is like phase two, right? 
First, we're going to let them 

1523
01:17:34,120 --> 01:17:36,240
know that I hear you. 
I hear you. 

1524
01:17:36,480 --> 01:17:38,360
Help me understand what that 
means. 

1525
01:17:38,360 --> 01:17:40,800
Help me understand what that 
looks like for you and how does 

1526
01:17:40,800 --> 01:17:43,760
that leave you feeling? 
And some kids will be able to go

1527
01:17:43,760 --> 01:17:46,800
into that level of emotional 
detail and talk about, and some 

1528
01:17:46,800 --> 01:17:48,920
kids will. 
And then we can start teaching 

1529
01:17:48,920 --> 01:17:50,320
them. 
I think that there's definitely 

1530
01:17:50,600 --> 01:17:54,400
a place for teaching children 
about the world, how it's 

1531
01:17:54,400 --> 01:17:59,840
worked, why it is the way it is.
And but it's about timing, 

1532
01:17:59,840 --> 01:18:02,280
Timing everything. 
Time is everything. 

1533
01:18:02,320 --> 01:18:03,920
Yeah. 
If you're if you're stuck in 

1534
01:18:03,920 --> 01:18:06,520
your feelings and you're really 
hurt and sad about something, 

1535
01:18:06,640 --> 01:18:09,040
you don't want to hear the 
theoretical explanation about 

1536
01:18:09,040 --> 01:18:12,480
why that might be. 
You want to have somebody say, 

1537
01:18:12,760 --> 01:18:15,920
OK, I hear you. 
And again, that opens up 

1538
01:18:15,920 --> 01:18:17,880
conversations. 
That creates an environment 

1539
01:18:17,880 --> 01:18:19,320
where we talk about this kind of
stuff. 

1540
01:18:19,360 --> 01:18:21,440
Powerful. 
Conversation, thank you so much 

1541
01:18:21,440 --> 01:18:25,160
from NSPCC perspective, what 
what, what are you, what are you

1542
01:18:25,160 --> 01:18:27,480
doing to support parents and 
support children? 

1543
01:18:27,480 --> 01:18:31,720
Is there anything that we should
be plugging into what's going on

1544
01:18:31,720 --> 01:18:33,600
there? 
Talk to us about NSPCC and how 

1545
01:18:33,600 --> 01:18:34,680
you're supporting parents and 
so. 

1546
01:18:34,760 --> 01:18:38,960
NSPCC has a lot of different 
elements to it. 

1547
01:18:38,960 --> 01:18:44,000
So we have pages on nspcc.org 
that you can access for 

1548
01:18:44,000 --> 01:18:47,720
information about this. 
And we've got content on talking

1549
01:18:47,720 --> 01:18:51,040
to your children about like fake
news, hoaxes, scams, things like

1550
01:18:51,040 --> 01:18:53,800
that, but also how to keep 
yourself safe online. 

1551
01:18:55,040 --> 01:18:58,280
We have some content or as well 
around, you know, the manosphere

1552
01:18:58,280 --> 01:19:00,760
and the impact that has on 
children. 

1553
01:19:01,880 --> 01:19:05,520
We also have our helplines. 
So we have an adult helpline, 

1554
01:19:05,520 --> 01:19:10,000
which you can call, which 
parents have done, you know, for

1555
01:19:10,000 --> 01:19:13,240
advice. 
And it's a, it's a helpline that

1556
01:19:13,240 --> 01:19:16,880
people can call if they have a 
concern about a child, they see 

1557
01:19:16,880 --> 01:19:18,600
something in the neighborhood 
that they're not quite 

1558
01:19:18,600 --> 01:19:21,440
comfortable with. 
Or if you're a professional and 

1559
01:19:21,440 --> 01:19:23,880
you have a concern about a 
child, you just need some 

1560
01:19:23,880 --> 01:19:27,440
advice. 
But we have had parents call us 

1561
01:19:27,520 --> 01:19:32,840
and say, listen, my son is 
talking about Andrew Tate and 

1562
01:19:32,840 --> 01:19:36,160
has been expressing really kind 
of shocking language. 

1563
01:19:36,160 --> 01:19:38,480
And I just don't know what to do
them. 

1564
01:19:39,080 --> 01:19:42,800
So you can contact that helpline
and you can also contact trial 

1565
01:19:42,800 --> 01:19:46,080
line as a child to talk about 
things that are worrying you. 

1566
01:19:46,400 --> 01:19:49,760
So ChildLine does have an 
confidentiality policies. 

1567
01:19:49,760 --> 01:19:52,200
So we don't report anything that
you say. 

1568
01:19:52,200 --> 01:19:55,880
So you can call us anonymously 
and if a child needs to ever 

1569
01:19:55,960 --> 01:19:59,920
talk to us about anything that 
that's on their mind and. 

1570
01:20:00,880 --> 01:20:02,240
So. 
Valuable. 

1571
01:20:02,280 --> 01:20:06,040
I mean, honestly, this is so I 
really when I was younger, 

1572
01:20:06,040 --> 01:20:08,520
ChildLine was a threat that I'd 
use against my parents. 

1573
01:20:08,520 --> 01:20:11,120
I'm calling ChildLine. 
I've had enough. 

1574
01:20:11,680 --> 01:20:15,120
But actually this is so needed, 
isn't it right now? 

1575
01:20:15,400 --> 01:20:20,320
And I have actually used your 
help e-mail, not the advice 

1576
01:20:20,320 --> 01:20:23,920
line. 
I sent an e-mail to NSPCC 

1577
01:20:23,920 --> 01:20:27,360
because of a child that I was 
worried about that I knew. 

1578
01:20:27,400 --> 01:20:31,400
Thank you. 
The advice was just incredible. 

1579
01:20:31,400 --> 01:20:34,880
So thoughtful. 
So puts the person responding 

1580
01:20:34,880 --> 01:20:37,040
put so much thought and effort 
into it. 

1581
01:20:37,040 --> 01:20:40,440
I was so impressed. 
And it was really unexpected. 

1582
01:20:40,640 --> 01:20:44,280
Yeah, so I mean, thank you for 
existing. 

1583
01:20:44,280 --> 01:20:45,160
Like really? 
No. 

1584
01:20:45,240 --> 01:20:47,240
I'm such a valuable. 
Service I'm. 

1585
01:20:47,280 --> 01:20:50,520
So lucky. 
I kind of pinch myself every day

1586
01:20:50,520 --> 01:20:53,720
to think that I'm actually 
working for this organization. 

1587
01:20:54,160 --> 01:20:57,120
And what I love about my 
organization is that it always 

1588
01:20:57,120 --> 01:21:01,320
asks us as staff to be brave, 
which is something that that 

1589
01:21:01,320 --> 01:21:04,200
just spoke to my heart in terms 
of where do I want to work? 

1590
01:21:04,200 --> 01:21:08,240
Where do I want to do this work?
And it's with NSPCC because they

1591
01:21:08,240 --> 01:21:10,840
asked us to be brave and stand 
up for children. 

1592
01:21:10,960 --> 01:21:15,040
And we work very, very hard with
other organizations to ensure 

1593
01:21:15,040 --> 01:21:17,560
that we're always, you know, 
evidence based, that we're 

1594
01:21:17,560 --> 01:21:20,560
always coming from a place of we
know this because the stats are 

1595
01:21:20,560 --> 01:21:22,600
telling us. 
We know this because kids are 

1596
01:21:22,600 --> 01:21:24,720
telling us. 
And that's why things need to 

1597
01:21:24,720 --> 01:21:27,040
change. 
And then we also have been 

1598
01:21:27,040 --> 01:21:32,000
working with Vodafone to create 
a toolkit that people can access

1599
01:21:32,000 --> 01:21:34,800
as well, either on the NSPCC 
website or on the Vodafone 

1600
01:21:34,800 --> 01:21:38,080
website. 
There's loads of resources on 

1601
01:21:38,120 --> 01:21:42,880
our nspcc.org website, but we 
also have an NSPC learning 

1602
01:21:43,080 --> 01:21:46,920
website which has as podcasts, 
research papers. 

1603
01:21:46,920 --> 01:21:50,160
But it will also give you access
to training that you might be 

1604
01:21:50,160 --> 01:21:53,200
interested in or consultancy for
organizations that are working 

1605
01:21:53,480 --> 01:21:55,840
with children and young people 
to kind of get, you know, their 

1606
01:21:55,840 --> 01:21:59,400
policies right or if they they 
need any training around 

1607
01:21:59,400 --> 01:22:02,480
safeguarding children you've. 
Been brilliant, thank you so 

1608
01:22:02,480 --> 01:22:04,520
much the new card, I really 
appreciate it. 

1609
01:22:04,560 --> 01:22:06,360
Myself a lot thank you and 
we're. 

1610
01:22:06,360 --> 01:22:08,640
Going to leak all of those 
resources in the show notes as 

1611
01:22:08,640 --> 01:22:11,200
well, but thank you so much. 
Thank you. 

1612
01:22:16,680 --> 01:22:19,280
What an episode, what an 
episode. 

1613
01:22:19,360 --> 01:22:24,680
Adolescence is a phenomenal show
and I've enjoyed this episode so

1614
01:22:24,680 --> 01:22:26,280
much. 
You know, we chewed the fat. 

1615
01:22:26,280 --> 01:22:28,640
We gave our reflections on on 
the show. 

1616
01:22:28,640 --> 01:22:32,600
We spoke to Sarah, not her real 
name, the mother who spoke about

1617
01:22:33,080 --> 01:22:35,080
her child and her experiences. 
Thank you so much. 

1618
01:22:35,080 --> 01:22:36,720
That was powerful. 
Sarah. 

1619
01:22:36,880 --> 01:22:40,160
Blue haired Sarah, our 
psychologist, spoke about the 

1620
01:22:40,160 --> 01:22:43,200
impact on children and then we 
finished with Anuka from the 

1621
01:22:43,200 --> 01:22:47,080
NSPCC giving us some real 
practical advice and takeaways. 

1622
01:22:47,640 --> 01:22:49,880
It's been incredible. 
We want to hear your views. 

1623
01:22:50,000 --> 01:22:53,520
Please e-mail us to Be a Boy 
team@gmail.com. 

1624
01:22:53,520 --> 01:22:55,920
Let us know what you thought 
about the show, what you thought

1625
01:22:55,920 --> 01:22:58,240
about our reflections, our guest
this episode. 

1626
01:22:58,560 --> 01:23:01,360
Thank you so much for sticking 
with us to Be a Boy podcast 

1627
01:23:01,720 --> 01:23:04,400
signing out. 
See you later.