Hello everybody, this is our 4th episode and today we're going to
do a really special episode that we didn't expect to be doing on
Adolescence, the Netflix series Adolescence.
Now listen, if you haven't seen this series, I would probably
suggest watching it before you listen to this because there
will be some spoiler alerts. Both Elliot and I have watched
it and lots and lots of people have watched it and it's been
talked about all over the place. But we really wanted to look at
the themes of this series, to talk about how it made us feel
and what we were worried about and what we took from the
series, but also to talk to some experts.
So we've got a child psychologist coming up, we've
got an expert in online safety for kids, and we're going to
talk to a parent whose son accessed some harmful content
online and what happened. But firstly, Elliot, I really
want to know what you thought about the series of what were
the key things that you took from adolescence?
I feel like we want to take a collective breath.
I don't think I've ever seen a short series programme capture
the nation quite like adolescence has, and for me,
it's really important. It was a hard, tough watch.
It's very raw, it's very emotional, but I think it's
necessary because it has finally platformed some issues that you
know, have been bubbling, people have been talking about for
years. It's an essential watch.
If you haven't watched it yet, what are you doing?
Go and watch it now. Like pause the podcast.
Go and watch it now because you need to watch this program
regardless of whether you are a parent or a boy or not.
If you're feeling raw and low, maybe just leave.
Leave it 24 hours and then watch it because brace yourself.
What were your raw feelings after you've finished?
Talk us through your journey generally of consuming
adolescence. So the first episode when I'd
finished, my partner said I'm not watching anymore, this is
trauma porn. And I got what he was saying
because I cried all the way through it and at the end of it
I just felt hollow. We obviously have two boys and
so as it's about a boy, it felt feels very personal and very
raw. I didn't feel like that after
the other episodes, and we're obviously persevered and got
through the rest of them. And with each episode, I felt
like they took things from a slightly different angle so you
could look at things in the round, which I thought was
really helpful. One of the key things for me
that I just took from almost every episode was that there
were men. The majority of characters are
men. It's written by a man, it's
produced by a man, but it's essentially about violence
against women and girls. And I loved that about it
because finally it felt like we've got something here that's
huge and it's men talking about this issue and it's not women
driving the narrative that that to me felt like a real moment to
celebrate. But of course, by the end of it,
I felt deflated and hopeless, if I'm honest.
And I'm not sure that that is helpful.
Do you think it's on purpose? Do you think they wanted you to
feel like that at the end? I feel like they're asking a big
question and they don't know the answer and they want to say that
this, they don't want to lay the blame at anybody's door, which I
really like about it as well. They're saying this is a
problem, We all need to be involved in the solution.
We don't know what the answers are.
And so inevitably it's going to leave you feeling a bit confused
and hopeless because you want solutions, right?
You want to go, right, That's what we need to do or, OK, you
know, this is all going to work out in the end and neither of
those things are the case. I quite liked the fact that they
didn't give us solutions. I like.
I quite like the fact there wasn't a oh, and now do ABC and
you will fix the problem. It it wasn't the Hollywood here
you go ending. This is how you fix the problem
in your own life. It was we need to, as a society,
have a really important conversation that we haven't
been having. And how do we hit you with the
most powerful narrative and display of that to leave you
thinking, shit, I need to learn more.
The important thing is where people then go to learn more.
I hope our podcast is part of helping people to find some
healthy solutions. I also want to shout out some of
the incredible organizations that have been doing this work
for years. Beyond Equality and Dan
Guinness, future men who are future guests on the podcast,
Alex Holmes, father to father Courtney Brown.
There are so many, the Men and Boys coalition, you know, and I
think for anyone listening, if you are thinking about where to
go, there are people out here that have been working with boys
on the ground. And I hope that off the back of
this program, those companies get more support and people go
to them to find out, OK, what can I do and what's going on on
the ground in my local area as well.
Yeah, here, here. And of course, Movember, we, we
love and are doing great work in this space.
My friend Christine Armstrong sent me a message actually last
night about adolescence, and I'd love to read it out, she said.
For me, the point is in the questions it raises.
How do we raise our kids in a world where strangers can
communicate with them without our knowledge?
We can knock on the doors. We can't force them to answer.
We don't even understand half of how they communicate.
You know, you see on the program the emojis that they're using.
And no, none of the adults have a clue what any of them mean.
I didn't have a clue what any of them meant.
How do we keep kids safe and protect them?
What does that even look like? How do we know if we're doing
it? How does trauma pass between
generations and how do we break that connection?
How do we balance the needs to make a living and provide for
the needs of our kids without causing causing harm?
So like the dad says on there that he gave a PC to his son
because he wanted his son to have something that he didn't
have. Who is responsible when kids do
struggle? Is it the parents or school or
social media who can even influence this mix?
How do we respond when things go wrong?
The boy is a child, he has a bear in his bed and he is a
confused victim too. But if it was my child that he
hurt, I wouldn't feel that. I would feel no sympathy for him
whatsoever. So what is the correct response?
So it's there's so many questions that this leverages
and so so few answers. But on Christine, first of all,
that was poetic. Thank you, Christine.
There are so many questions and I think that's not a bad thing,
you know, I think it's the reality.
So us having some grasp of the question should we should be
asking ourselves is a is a really good thing.
And throughout the the program, there's a little things that
stood out to me so much that I think like I really want to
reflect on and obviously the overall storyline and the facts
that we saw this from the perpetrators perspective.
Now I think we've seen programs from the victims perspective and
that they're really good and we obviously we need more of those.
But they were really brave in telling the story from the
perspective of the boy. And that last scene around what
happens when this happens? How do the family pick
themselves up? How does it impact everybody
else? And that scene at the end when
Stephen Graham's crying into the pillow.
And I'm getting goosebumps now even thinking about it.
He's crying into the pillow and he's thinking about what he has
or hasn't done, how he's contributed.
He's thinking about how his daughter's going to go to
school. His daughter said, I'm known as
Jamie's sister now. He's thinking about his work,
his plumbing business. He's thinking about his wife.
He's thinking about his community, how he is able to
keep this together now being the dad of a boy that has killed
someone at 13 years old. And it was some of the most
powerful TV I've ever I've ever seen.
A couple of points that I think I I saw that really stood out to
me. There was the scene in the in
the school, the chaotic school for anyone that is thinking
about secondary schools for their children.
I'm sure this is like it really stressed you out.
Yeah. But just a real representation
of how the school and education system is quite broken and, and
how those teachers were overworked.
We teachers are underpaid. They are stressed out.
They can't control the, the kids discipline is on the floor.
And those, those scenes where the, the teachers, there's one
teacher particularly who was struggling to hold the class,
but the other teachers, the male teachers who were shouting at
the kids, you know, spending most of their time trying to
control the kids rather than teach them.
And you think about the environment that we're sending
our kids to, like, what does that do for them?
And how does that not protect them against all the other
negative influences that we're seeing online and, and, and
through the world? I think the education system
doesn't help at all. There was also a scene when the
lead detectives went into into the school to talk about the
murder weapon. And as they were kind of trying
to address the class, the kids were just laughing.
And it really just showed the desensitization of violence.
And yeah, through gaming, through what we've seen online,
social media, YouTube, just murder, killing, you know, It's
so desensitized. Yeah.
And that you're absolutely right.
I had really hadn't fully picked up on that.
But now that you say it, when Jamie is in with the
psychologist in the room and the psychologist has to keep saying
to him, you know, she's dead, she's not coming back to life,
she is dead. As if he really hasn't computed
that he hasn't process that him stabbing her means she's dead
and she's gone forever. You're right.
This desensitization to violence and this notion that perhaps a
heart to gaming that in, you know, in games you kill people
and things. It's not real.
Like is that plaguing and messing with that kids brains?
I don't know. I don't know the answer to that
I think. It is.
I think the writing was so clever.
I think it's, I think it was all on purpose.
You know, all these little things.
I think they just put in there as little these these are things
around the edges, you know, that very much play into the outcome.
Episode 3. I've watched it three times when
Jamie's sitting down being interviewed by the psychologist
Erin Docherty, I think her name is incredible actor.
And there was one moment that struck me actually, when she
went out into the into the control room and the security
guard was there and she was watching the video and he's like
in her ear just whispering and being.
Really creepy. It was awful.
It was. Really creepy.
Yeah. And I think they they put that
in there to show, look, these little incidents of like sexism,
misogyny, I guess what women have to face in the workplace
and in life. And it felt it made me feel
really uncomfortable because like, why was he sounding so
close? Why was he whispering in her
ear? She's a professional, She's
doing her job. And it was his entitlement to
her personal space and her professional thinking time that
I really that that really stood out to me as a kind of put that
in there to show, yes, there's this big story, but there's
these little things that happen like every single day.
Yeah. You're absolutely right.
Yeah. And any woman watching that and
has had that experience, that exact experience, but they're
not doing anything that you can quite put your finger on that is
wrong. But they make you feel so
uncomfortable and make you just want to crawl out of your own
skin by standing too close by looking at you in a way that
they want you to take your clothes off.
There's just something not quite right about that situation and
they portrayed that beautifully and they.
Did what was it just about Jamie's character?
You know, at the beginning I thought, oh, he couldn't have
done it because he's 13, right? And he's he's quite a small
skinny kid, right? So you're thinking he's not
capable A. Terrible like beautiful boy,
they've done that on purpose, have they as well so you're.
Thinking it's not possible. But then you get to the
interview and you see the complex nature of This is a boy
who thinks he's ugly, who is being nobody at school, who
feels like he doesn't live up to his dad's expectations in in
sport and football. And that that scene around him
being in goal and, and the dad kind of turning away from him.
But then he's so he's so quick to anger and intimidate the
psychologist. And I thought that was
terrifying, revealing that people can be complicated and
yes, you can look innocent, still be capable of horrific
crimes. Yeah, because as well as the
anger in that room, you feel his fear as well.
He's so scared, is a scared little boy who uses anger to
deflect from his fear. That was what I was seeing when
he's in the room with the psychologist.
But he also felt for the psychologist and what that would
feel like as a woman in that room with a 13 year old boy
shouting in your face who has committed this heinous crime.
I mean, I, I was really fascinated by how the mother
was, was essentially left out of it for most of it.
I mean, obviously she was in it a bit more at the end, but it
was very focused on the role of the dad in all of this.
And I liked that as well because often the mother is the one
that's blamed and often in the right wing media And remember
seeing a headline of them talking about mass murderers and
what their mums were like. Like they did a whole article on
it in the Daily Mail. And as if, you know, must be the
mother's fault. So is the mother's fault.
And they very much stayed away from that narrative.
And they did talk quite a lot about the dad's anger.
And although the dad had never harmed anybody, he clearly had a
lot of anger issues. And he still was very lovable.
But he was. But he also had this switch that
he could turn to anger quite quickly.
He dismantled the shed, didn't he, one time when he was
furious, which I loved. And so there's, you know, that
that really complicated conversation about male anger
felt was done very well it. Was it was.
And I think there's a scene on the way back from the DIY shop
when Jamie says he's going to change his plea and the
conversation he has with his mom and sister and how he kind of
doesn't really want to speak to them, kind of like dismisses
them. And it just showed me how he's
so keen for his dad's approval. And maybe that dismissiveness of
the conversation with his mom and sister was a bigger
reflection of his lack of respect for women and how
actually the male approval is what he is really seeking.
But I felt like the dad at the end, you know, when he's he, he
spoke about work getting in the way.
His business took off. He left the house at six, got
back at 8. And he says maybe I took my my
eye off the ball. That really hit home because,
you know, we know the importance of good male role models and not
just having a good dad, but a good dad that's actually present
in the house. And going back to this idea
about masculinity that we provide and we're out working
all the time. And I thought that was so
important to include because providing is one thing, but what
are we providing for if we're not around, not saying we can be
around every evening, right? But if we're not around
substantive amount of time to spend time with our kids and get
to know them and then get to know us, what we providing for.
And I think what they tried to do was reflect his, the dad's
character as ultimately a good man, not a perfect man, but
ultimately a man that's flawed in his own way, but not, not
extreme, not to blame, you know, like he seemed like a normal
guy. Like his level of anger didn't
seem extreme to me. I don't think they were trying
to portray him as an extremely angry man.
I think they're actually trying to say this is quite a normal
family, actually. And maybe what we have been
doing just isn't, I don't want to say good enough.
That isn't the right thing. And maybe where we can make
changes to be more present, we should be able to be more
present. And that's really tough to
deliver and tough to hear. And I'm not saying I'm perfect
at all, but I think what the program showed us is that for
the dads, it's really important that we're around.
Yeah. It's yeah, I agree.
And I do think it's the portrayal of a very normal
family. But I did also pick up on the
fact that the women in that family are very different to
him. He was the boss and he, you
know, when they talked about moving, he was like, no, we are
not moving. And that was like, that's the
end of the story. No more conversation about it.
I think that deference to him was meant to be there to show
that perhaps that also had fed into Jamie's negative feelings
towards girls and women. They then the girl that he
killed, she was bullying him online and the only reaction to
that that he had in his toolbox was anger.
And if perhaps in the home when arguments had happened between
the mum and dad and the dad had modelled backing down or saying
I'm sorry or giving her a hug, or the there being that
representation of a different way of handling that situation,
perhaps that that could have fed into Jamie's behavior.
Perhaps. I don't know whether that's what
they're saying and I don't know whether that is right what I'm
saying. I just you know that I think I
did notice the difference there. Was definitely a kind of how are
you going to respond thing like what's your emotional reaction
going to be? And then from the women to the
to the dad. And then how do we adapt our
behavior around you? You know, and and?
That happens a lot in family. It does, it happens a lot.
I've seen it in my own family and friendship groups.
You know where that happens and it's sad when you see it
happening. I've been in, in, in households
and the guy says something or someone in the room says
something and the the wife looks at the husband and then looks at
everyone else to see their reaction before they speak
rather than I feel free to say what I want.
And I think it's an important message for all the men
listening to to create that emotional psychological safety
in your household where people aren't scared to express their
opinions or show their emotions because they're scared of how
you're going to respond to them. And actually knowing that your
children can say what they want to say, right.
And you're not just going to get angry.
They don't have to adapt to their behavior because that's
around. Yeah, exactly.
You know, and that's what I think when we're talking about
what good looks like, right? Being around is half, half the
job. But then once you are around,
it's like, what does healthy look like?
How do you create an A healthy environment?
And I often that really stood out to me is when the mom said,
you know, at 11 AM, Jamie would have his lights on.
And I would just, you know, say to him, Jamie got school in the
morning and he just turned the light off and not say anything.
And I thought about my own childhood and thought my mum and
dad had burst into my room. Like, if I'm up at 1:00 AM on a
school night, yeah, my mum and dad are not knocking on the
door. They're not talking like.
I I must have told you before I have had because my son doesn't
have a phone and kids in his class do they sometimes think I
am my son. And so and I get messages from
kids in his class at 1:00 AM. They're in their bedroom
messaging each other on WhatsApp.
And these are 11 year old kids and their parents don't know.
So I think, you know, I think that was a really clear message
actually in there. One thing you can do is like not
let your kids have screens in their bedroom, please.
Like, yeah, I don't want to sound like that, that, that,
that sounds really judgmental. And it's really hard to monitor
that because my son is desperate for a computer and a screen set
up in his bedroom and most of his friends have it.
And I get why. Like, I'm not trying to be
judgmental. I just think you do lose control
sometimes if you and you don't know what they're doing and you
can't monitor them every second. But you can have boundaries.
Yeah. And.
I for me, it kind of spoke to not wanting to upset your child,
you know, wanting to like be pally with them, not wants to
break the relationship, not wants to have a confrontation.
And I do feel like sometimes we're in that a little bit too
much when actually like we're still their parents.
Friendship will hopefully develop, you know, over the
years, but ultimately we are still their parents.
And I think about my own parents.
I mean, a very traditional Caribbean household where my dad
particularly was nice man, but very strict with education,
behavior, manners and stuff like that.
And that served me really, really well.
And I, I do fear sometimes we are going completely the other
way around where we're not, we're, we're scared to put
boundaries around things that we know are unhealthy for our kids,
But we, we are so scared to, to upset them.
You know, and Stevens character at one point said, you know, my
dad used to beat me when I was Jamie's age.
My dad used to beat me and I turned out like this.
And how did I create Jamie when I never put a hand on him?
And I think that was a really interesting dynamic as well.
You know, around, no, I'm not talking about physical
discipline here, but boundaries and how much we expect from our
kids around behaviour, obedience, the parent.
Child relationship, how much of that do we lean into and do any
way we need to rethink how much, how much boundaries we put
around what our children do and not be scared to go into their
room at 1:00 AM when they're blatantly on the Internet.
Yeah. Talking to whoever, yeah.
I think we should get your dad on the podcast as well.
He would hate this if you could pay him enough money to come on
his podcast. Who are charges?
Mr. Ray? Yeah, he.
Wouldn't BBC documentary, he did that because he knew how much it
meant to me. But he he got notice in the
supermarket and he came to me. He's like Elliot, someone saw me
from the TV and he like hasn't forgiven me for that.
So no, I wouldn't. I wouldn't put it on this
podcast. Doesn't like to be the centre of
attention. OK, got it.
Not. Like me at all I.
Want to talk? Briefly, about the impact, the
worry that I have about adolescence being used to create
division between boys and girls. And I've seen some days, I'm not
going to be able to quote the exact statistics, but in some
countries, boys and girls are reporting a lot of division
between between the genders. And in the UK actually that the
division has not been that great.
We seem to be rubbing along together quite well.
There is always a danger that things like this will be taken
by certain fractions of the media and used to create those
divisions because that sells newspapers.
And I've already seen that happening.
So there was an article in the Daily Mail with the headline, is
yours, your son a ticking time bomb?
Like, what are we doing? No, thank you.
My son is not a ticking time bomb.
And by putting these headlines in the newspaper, we're telling
people to be afraid of boys. We're saying what's your sons?
They need watching because they are a problem.
And the Internet and social media is a problem for
everybody. It is not just a problem for
boys. And no, my son is not a ticking
time bomb. He is deserving of love and
respect and care like any other child.
He is just in a world that we don't understand at the moment.
And so rather than as constantly putting this blame, particularly
on boys, that I think has an adverse effect effect where it
creates more division, it means boys are more likely to
gravitate towards the manosphere and influences that tell them
that they are amazing because they're the ones that are
picking them up rather than the media demonizing them.
I think rather than this blame, we should be looking for
solutions. And it really deeply concerns me
about how we're going to be talking to boys and the messages
that they're receiving as a result.
Like with anything, when something becomes big, it gets
weaponized for people's own motivations just clicks and to
sell newspapers, whatever it is, political agenda and things just
for us all to be aware, you know, what content are we
consuming? How do we critically think about
what we're consuming? And as I said at the beginning
of going to the organizations that are doing the work on on
the ground. I'm really happy this
conversation has come up, but the, the ideas are not new.
The concept, the, the reality is not a new one.
You know, there are people that have been doing this work for a
long time. Please, let's, let's pour into
them. We can, we can link in the show
notes, support those organizations, you know, the
ones that are trying to have a healthy conversation about this
and understand the issues really, really, really well.
Well, I think that's a great way to end.
What should we do now, Elliot? I think.
We should speak to a parent and we have a mum whose son has seen
some content online and we really want to bring this into
reality. It's a hard hitting
conversation. Stay with us.
This is necessary and important. Let's get into it.
So Jolie, you and your partner are two full time busy working
parents and I know you don't have your parents close by or
that village of the support nearby.
How do you cope with all of this?
Well, the simple answer is we don't.
We're both losing our marbles constantly, but thankfully we
did find bubble childcare and it's been a total game changer.
We were really nervous about having a stranger come into our
house, but we found Sarah. She's a primary school teacher
who is doing some babysitting and nannying on the side.
She came and met with us. The kids absolutely adore her.
She is just brilliant as she babysat for us a couple of weeks
ago and she even made the kids their dinner and now the kids
just want us to go out all the time so that they can have
Sarah. We've we've used her for
emergency backup care. It's saved our relationship,
it's saved our careers. We just love Bubble.
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We're doing a special episode today on some of the themes of
adolescence, looking at the impact it's having on boys and
on parents. And so we have with us today a
mum who has an experience of something that happened to her
child that she's going to share with us.
So, Sarah, if you'd like to tell us your story, thanks.
Julie it was probably about this time last year actually.
My son had been playing for a couple of years since COVID with
a child that lived really, really close to us.
And he was a little bit older than Billy and he moved away.
So Billy and the other child kept in touch by playing with
with each other online. They quite often played on the
Xbox or they would connect their iPad and play Roblox games that
both me and my husband thought were age appropriate.
There was one afternoon where Billy and the other boy were
playing and I was in the room next to Billy and I always said
to him, keep your door open so I can hear you.
Who you chatting to? I was working and I noticed that
Billy cut the conversation quite short.
There was a couple of raised voices but I wasn't really
listening. They quite often shouted and
he's quite loud. Later on that afternoon I didn't
really think anything of it, but later on that afternoon my
husband took Billy swimming. She's a regular occurrence and
then when they came home from swimming, my husband came in.
Billy was in front of him with a very sort of strange look upon
his face and my husband's just sort of mouthed at me.
Don't say anything and I'm just going to put him in the front
room and put the telly on. And then he kind of indicated
that I had to go to the kitchen and my husband talked to me and
explained on the way back from swimming, Billy has burst into
tears in the in the car, really unlike him.
My husband had to stop the car and asked Billy what's the
matter And but he told him that the other boy had told him
whilst they were playing on a game, had told him all about the
doc web he had introduced into the concept of necrophilia.
And he'd also told him about sites where adults looked at
naked boys, specifically said naked boys and that they could
do things to naked boys. And that he'd also seen sites
where naked children were for sale for sex.
And it's taken really the whole of the swimming session to pluck
up the courage to be able to talk to my husband about it.
And my husband sat in the car with him for over 40 minutes to
try and get this story out of him.
And as a result of that, he was just a completely changed child.
It was probably the, like, one of the worst moments of our
lives to understand that that had happened in a conversation
that probably took less than 10 minutes.
What? Did your husband say to Billy
when that happened? I think.
He went straight into problem solving mode.
Fortunately, both my husband and I are.
We have jobs where we manage people.
And I think that we both sort of jumped into that sort of persona
of trying to understand the problem and spoke to him about
the fact that he was really, really pleased that he told him.
He said he'd, you know, he'd been really brave for telling
him that he knew that something had been the matter.
And my husband later said to me that he could tell during the
swimming session that Billy was worried about something.
And the thing that broke my heart was that Billy had said to
me afterwards that he was swimming and he just kept
looking around thinking I'm not safe.
I've only got a really small pair of shorts on another people
in the swimming pool that are here because they want to buy
me. And it was that that really
upset me. I mean, everything upset me.
But that one that was sentenced, when I was talking to him, I had
to really try really hard not to cry a thing.
That it is just horrendous for all of you.
And I have some insight into what that feels like because I
have had not to the same extent, but a similarish experience with
my eldest son. So I know how terrifying it is.
And I, I think it's amazing that your son talked to you and your
husband about it. That shows that he feels really
safe to talk about what has been happening to him.
What did you do next after you'd had the conversation with Billy?
What did you decide would be your next actions?
Well, I think at the. Time we didn't really think
about what we were going to do in the future.
We told him that he'd been really brave.
We first of all, we asked him if he'd seen anything.
And that was another massive concern for both of us.
He said that the other boy had said that he could show him the
sights, but that was when the raised voices occurred.
And Billy said, no, I don't want to see anything and just stopped
the call. So I did more digging.
I had loads more conversations with him to try and understand
exactly what the other child had said.
And then I think foolishly at the time, both my husband and I
saw just having a chat with him and reassuring him that those
things we didn't lie. I've always been really mindful
when Billy asks me questions. I've always tried to be as
honest as I could in an age appropriate fashion.
But we reassured him that he was completely safe.
But the, his, the change in the behavior lasted for months and
months and months. And I think that it was really
apparent a couple of weeks later when he still the day that it
happened, he slept in our bed. And he hadn't done that since he
was a toddler. And then he didn't want to leave
our room. So he ended up sleeping in our
room, actually on and off for about 6 months.
So probably after about four weeks of him still sleeping in
our room, I said to my husband, I feel like we need to do
something else. So I went to talk to the school
because there was one more name where I had to sit in the car
with Billy for about an hour to try and get him to go to school.
And that's when he started. He was saying things like he
didn't want to be here. He felt it was his fault.
He felt he shouldn't have had that conversation with the other
boy. I think he was just replaying
the the instance and the situation over and over and over
in his mind. Oh my.
Goodness, I well, I just can't imagine how dramatic that was
for all of you. You said he stayed in the same
bed as you for six months. How did he do you think he's
he's better for want of a better word?
Do you think he's managed to process it?
Do you think he's managed to to be able to put it in a box so
that he can move forward in a healthy way?
Or do you think it's still there and it's always going to plague
him? I.
Think it took a very, very long time and I think looking back, I
don't think it was until after we had the summer break from
school that he started to almost come back to his normal self.
We were fortunate enough to have a connection who gave us some
really good advice. So I wanted to get Billy some
help. But this person that we know who
is a child psychologist explained to us that what
actually needed to happen was that my husband and I needed to
talk to somebody to be able to give us help to help Billy.
So we, yeah, are fortunate and privileged enough to be able to,
we were able to afford a session with a child psychologist, which
really, really helped me especially.
I think I was the one that was tending to have all of these
conversations with Billy to try and get out of him what was the
matter and to try and allow him and give him space and hold
space for him to have these conversations.
Whereas I think my husband was a bit more action focused and
would try to distract him or would try to encourage him to do
do other things and not think about it.
Whereas I was the person that inevitably would go to bed at
the same time as him and then we'd end up having a
conversation for an hour about all of this stuff that was just
going round and round in his head.
Advice would you give to any of the parent listening who may
come across this in the future, who may have a child who tells
them that they've seen something on the Internet that has really,
really perturbed them and that you know, the content is
particularly disturbing? What What advice would you give
to them to help their child process what they've seen?
Them talk about it don't try and brush it under the carpet I
think that's probably what we tried to do in the beginning but
give them the space to be able to process what they've seen or
what they've heard and get some help for yourself as well so
that you're able to use different tools that maybe you
haven't thought about to be able to support your child that's
that's gone through this because I'm sure it's much more common
than than we think it is yeah I. Think that's great advice.
Thank you for taking the time to talk to us today.
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your support. Hello everyone.
Today we are joined by Sarah Clark, or Sarah with the blue
hair as she is better known, who is a child and adolescent
psychotherapist living and working in the Northeast.
She's spent the last 30 years working in private, state and
specialist school settings in one capacity or another all over
England and abroad. And she's also a a single mum of
two utterly gorgeous daughters aged 18 and 15.
So she definitely comes with lots of experience of looking
after teenagers as well. So Sarah, we would love to talk
to you about some of the themes that are coming out of
adolescence and that lots of people are panicking over.
And also there seems to be this sort of, I've seen this rhetoric
coming out from it that feels quite divisive about what is
happening to our teenagers. So I guess my first question
question is how worried should we be I.
Think we should be worried and I think I would have said that 10
years ago, 20 years ago, I'll say that 10 years in the future
because being worried about our kids is what good parenting
looks like, so. Do you think that we have an
extra layer of worry because of the Internet?
Do you think social media and the things that they potentially
are accessing online is causing damage to our children?
I think it. Makes it more complicated
because I think really teenagers, children need
fundamentally need two things. They need good relationships and
within the relationships they need good communication.
And the problem with the Internet is that it detracts
from both of those two things. And the best form of
communication is 1 to one face to face like we're doing now.
And the minute you start messaging, you lose tone of
voice, you lose new. Once you lose context, you lose
all that non verbal communication.
So that then detracts from the relationship.
So if communication relationships are fundamental to
helping our children grow up in this world, we're taking away
from both of those two things every time we put them in front
of a screen. So.
You would say the big worry is not necessarily what they're
accessing online, but the deterioration in real life
relationships in favour of online relationships.
That's the biggest issue that you're seeing exactly.
That as human beings, we're hardwired to be relational.
That's what everybody wants. The difficulty with teenagers in
particular is that they can give all the time that they don't
want to be in a relationship with you, particularly if you're
their parents. I mean, they're, they're
designed to start separating from their parents and move
towards their peer group. So all the signals that they
give off are around. I don't want to talk to you.
Silence. Slamming of doors, disappearing
off to bedrooms. But it's actually a bit of a
trick because their other relationships are so confusing
that now is the time they need us most to walk alongside them
and help them navigate those and.
Sarah, is it a bit of both? Is it a bit of more access to
social media and screens? Do you think also parents are
pulling back more than previous generations or is it just that
we're thinking about it more now maybe?
Both because it's easier to pull back the idea of the digital
babysitter and, and let's be really honest, we can't put all
the blame on the teenagers. How many parents a teenager
starts to tell you something and then your phone goes or an
e-mail comes in or work call and we're distracted.
So it's, it's happening on both sides.
I don't think we can put all the blame on the teenagers.
I think that computers and digital interfacing is getting
in the way of. Everybody.
So what advice would you give to any parents that are listening
right now and are worried about their child and their distance
from their friends, their distance from them as their
parents and perhaps they're staying in their room a lot more
and they're on their computers and their screens a lot more.
What advice would you give them to?
Be in fierce competition with the Internet.
I feel like that's that's our challenge.
That's the challenge of the modern world, to encourage
children to have parties, sleepovers, friends around for
tea. Do you remember when we used to
have friends around for tea? And I feel like kids don't need
that anymore because they've got their friends on their phone.
But friends around for tea is so important.
And I think what the documentary really showed us in the final
episode was the parents absolute distress, saying he was in his
room. We thought he was safe.
But the minute kids are in their rooms and the doors are closed,
we don't know that they're safe anymore.
And it's about knocking on the door and asking to come in, you
know, come into their room, come into their world, come into
their life, come into their relationships and ask if they
need a hand with that can. I just say I love that you
called it tea as well. So for any Southerners
listening, that's dinner or something.
I picked up on that as well and I was like a cup of literally a
cup of tea. And we call lunch, dinner and
dinner tea. Just just to translate.
I used to love going around to my friend's house for tea.
And we did almost every night after school.
You'd be at a different person's house, wouldn't you?
And remember my friend's dad when you asked him for ketchup?
He used to go when you finished your tea as if like you had to
finish your dinner before you got your ketchup.
And I feel like that is missing. You're absolutely right.
But I also find a reluctance with my children to do do more
socializing. They're so addicted to games and
to screens that that's always their preference.
And so encouraging them to go to a friend's house to play out, to
do things in real life feels quite difficult.
Would you say just turn those screens off and force them to
socialize? Yeah.
That's that's really hard to do, isn't it?
I think there's something about be the parent who offers, be the
parent who invites, be the parent who, dare I say it has
the parties at your house, which, which I've done radiators
pulled off walls, you know, but ultimately I had had 30 kids in
my house and they were all being together mostly in person.
And that's what I that's what I really want.
Role model it, you know, I mean, again, if you want a throwback,
what about dinner parties? You know, that was the adult
form of going for tea with somebody, wasn't it?
And I feel like we don't do that anymore.
So role model, being out with your friends, having your
friends round, having conversations rather than just
texting because we know that children do what we do rather.
Than do what we say. So if you want them off their
phones, don't be on your phones all the time.
And what? I'm hearing is that we have to
work a bit harder. I think it's so easy to be
addicted ourselves. I'm definitely addicted to
social media like Instagram, LinkedIn.
I'm on there all the time and I'm so conscious of my
daughter's looking at me when I'm with them and I'm on my
phone. Would you say it's like we as
parents have to look at our addiction as well to manage our
child's addiction? Yeah.
Definitely and create those phone free zones.
So we've always had a rule in our house that there are no
phones at the dinner table. And even just saying that, I'm
really aware that there are still lots of families that
don't do the family dinner time. Every member of the family
around the table, no phones around.
What did you do today? How was your day reminding and
teaching our children to be curious about our lives?
You know, ask how my day was. Let me tell you about my
challenges. I feel like in there is another
really important thing, which is the idea of role modelling
mistakes, you know, and things going wrong and things going
badly and how we as adults manage that.
So the only way that teenagers are going to talk to us about
things that are difficult or things that are challenging for
them is if we do the same for them and explain.
I've had a an argument with a friend and I need to find a way
to resolve it or this terrible thing happened at work book
today and I'm trying to work out the best way to get around it.
Because there's a lot to do with perfection and the idea that
they need to be right and all these hideous role models role
modelling what being manly or masculine or even just an adult
looks like. And it's never about their
mistakes in the. Second episode of To Be a Boy,
we spoke to Ruth Whitman, who's the author of Boy Mom, and she
told talked to us about brain development of boys and how
actually they tend to be more fragile and more sensed.
What do you think boys need right now to be able to deal
with everything that they're able to access and and to to
deal with the modern world? Yeah.
And going back to what I said earlier, if anything, boys need
more help with communication. We know that it's harder for
boys to make and maintain friendships and to talk in
friendships about problems, difficulties to admit
vulnerability, to admit that they've got things wrong.
That idea of boys being really sensitive and needing more
nurturers, babies, I think continues into adolescence
because just because of the patriarchy in society, expecting
them to be tougher, braver, more resilient, and they're not.
And they need just as much help, if not more help than girls.
And the society is almost set up for girls.
If we look at counseling and therapy, we get lots of boys
referred at primary school for acting out.
But by the time we get to secondary school, it's more
girls who are coming to therapy, staying in therapy.
And I think it's still perceived as a weakness for boys and to be
getting that kind of help. And actually it's the boys who
really need it. If we look at male suicide
rates, I know you've talked about that before, men have
difficulty in getting support for their mental health.
We need more men in schools, we need more male therapists and
more ways to help boys access talking about their feelings
and. Sarah, can you talk a little bit
about the the wider risk factors as well?
I felt like in adolescence Jamie's character in the family
were a normal family, which I think was important to show.
This could happen to anyone, but we know there are wider risk
factors that can maybe drive boys to harmful online content
that can engage them in negative behaviours.
So what what what you say are those wider kind of risk factors
that you see from boys as well? Yeah.
Any kind of marginalisation, I think you know, boys who boys of
colour, boys who come from families with poverty in it.
We're seeing hundreds and thousands of young men and boys
in in our caseloads who are presenting with autism and ADHD,
other neurodiversity, other sorts of psychological
difficulties. That's all plays a part because
for some of those children, actually the online world feels
a lot safer than into personal relationships with other human
beings. So it's even easier for them to
retreat into those kind of worlds and even easier for
parents who are struggling maybe with a neuro diverse child to
allow them to do it because it's hard.
Work. Yeah.
And do you think because I know parents with neurodiverse
children who say the school system, it just isn't working
for them at all. And so some are homeschooled.
And so I guess as well, there's that extra factor if they're out
of the school system, it's harder than to socialize with
people. So they're more likely to find
friends online as well. So it's sort of a knock on
effect of the fact that the school system isn't fully
catering to neuro diverse children.
In many cases, school system doesn't cater and caters for so
many children. And interestingly, in my
opinion, having taught for 30 years, it really doesn't cater
for boys. You know, it's too much sitting
down, sitting still and going back to your episode 2 and we
were talking about being rambunctious and physical.
And that's actually a way that boys are and need to be.
You know, I've worked in special educational needs and one of my
sanctions used to be to get boys to run around the field just
because being able to exert themselves physically was a way
of helping them regulate, helping them calm down, which we
go back to adolescence. A lot of what we're talking
about is male anger, male rage, and a finding an outlet for
that. Being physical is one of those
ways. And the school system just has
them sitting down for hours and hours on end, keeping still,
keeping quiet, Sarah. From from your work and seeing
adolescence, were you what was your emotion watching it?
Were you surprised? Were you just happy that finally
these issues were given a mainstream platform?
Is there anything in there that you thought actually that isn't
a true representation of what you've seen from your work?
I. Think my overall summary of it
was was very, I sound like a typical mum.
I wasn't angry with it, I was just a bit disappointed.
I think I had huge expectations. I love lessons, it's one of my
favorite topics and I know that it's a really multi layered,
complex, nuanced topic, but I think I was hoping for a bit
more. It left me almost with more
questions than answers. It left me feeling quite
despairing. It didn't seem that there was
much in there to give parents hope.
It certainly didn't seem that there was much signposting or
modeling of what parenting communication relationships
could and should look like. Maybe my expectations were too
high or too professional, but it's certainly it's a problem.
It's something that we as a profession are enormously
worried about, but we often feel like we're shouting into the
void about it. What?
Gives you hope Sarah. Blue haired Sarah.
About boys and just the future more generally, I think.
What gives me hope is that I know so many lovely boys and
wonderful men who really want to do better at this.
So if there's one thing that we can do to help our problem with
men and boys, it's it's other men and boys.
That's what we really need. They don't need angry blue
haired psychotherapists blaming and shaming them for getting
things wrong all the time. They need lovely, warm,
compassionate men. There's been loads of stuff in
the news today about Gareth Southgate.
You know who's just the most amazing male role model?
We need men like him to stand up and speak on behalf of men.
Because men will listen to other men.
We need male teachers. We need male therapists.
We need men to step up and help other men.
Bring them on board, empower them, make them feel worthy and
valuable. Lovely.
Thank you. I just one more question.
I how what advice would you give to a parent who really wants
their son to talk to them? He just wants their son to open
up more and feels that they're putting up a brick.
Wall sometimes that little fraction of a plea for help is
really small and it can go so easily unnoticed.
It's about being aware and waiting for that door literally
all metaphorically to open, even just a crack.
And when it does, and in my experience, it's often the most
inconvenient times. You know, it's when I come home
late from work, it's when I'm really tired.
It's when I've had a horrendous day myself.
That's nine times out of 10 when my teenager wants to talk to me.
And there's something about just looking for that tiny, tiny
opening of the door and then seizing it.
And when you do, using it to really listen, using it to be
empathic and using it to say, this has been so nice to talk to
you. Let's do it again.
I love. That there are sometimes a lot
of a lot of us parents, we question ourselves and we
question whether we're doing the right thing, the wrong thing,
and we can be really harsh on ourselves and give ourselves a
bad performance review, some positivity.
How do you think we should be looking at ourselves in regards
to our approach to parenting? Can we be kinder to ourselves to
know that we are doing the right thing?
Sometimes I think we. Can, and I think the most moving
scene in adolescence is the tears shed by the dad in the
final episode when he thinks about how wrong he's got it or
he reflects on that. I get a lot of strength from the
idea of Donald Winnicott, who talks about what being a good
enough parent looks like. So he says we need to get it
right 1/3 of the time. That can be a little bit
intimidating, but it's only a third we're allowed to get it
wrong 1/3 of the time. I find that so reassuring that
we can actually make mistakes and get it completely wrong as a
parent 1/3 of the time. And then the crucial third is
that last third where we are wondering about what we've done.
It's the conversations you have with your partner where you say,
do you think I was too hard on him this evening?
I wonder if we need to find her some help with this.
It's where you read parenting books, it's where you listen to
parenting podcasts and you get help and advice and you think it
through. And if you add the wondering
third together with the good third, you've got the good
enough parent. And that feels achievable,
realistic for me. If you listen to Be a Boy,
you're a good parent, basically. Yeah, well done for.
Everyone signed. Up you're doing fine.
You listen to the podcast, you're good and.
That's all you need to do. Just that's what you need to do.
Be a boy constantly and you, you're on it.
Thank you, Sarah. That was so insightful and
helpful. We're really grateful to you for
taking the time to come on. Thank you.
Thanks, Sarah. So Elliot, you very luckily have
your parents close by and they do quite a bit childcare for
you, but they go to Grenada for three months every year.
What do you do when they're gone?
How do you look after yourself and your relationship?
Well, I feel very sorry for myself.
Going to Grenada is amazing for them, but it's not so great for
us. Luckily, we have bubble.
Bubble provides us with emergency childcare, backup
childcare and ultimately the opportunity for us to have date
nights and also go to the spa every now and again.
Because us parents, we need to maintain our identity.
We need to maintain our self-care and our relationships.
So Bubble is incredible for where my parents jet off to
Grenada. Find and book background checked
nannies and sitters. They can be with you in as
little as an hour, trusted by parents.
You know, like us. Search Bubble Childcare in the
App Store or Google Play Store. In a car.
Houghton Boss is a senior safeguarding training consultant
for the NSPCC. She designs and delivers
training to a wide range of organizations to support them in
safeguarding children and young people.
She previously worked in juvenile justice and care
settings in Northern Ireland and the United States, and as a
social worker in the Netherlands.
She's been a supervisor at ChildLine, engaging with
children at risk. She's based in Northern Ireland,
working across the UK and internationally.
So it's just gone St. Patricks Day.
We are delighted you could fit us in and we're so keen to talk
to you. Thank you so much for joining
us. How you doing my?
Pleasure, My pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.
I'm honoured to be asked to come and sleep with you folks today.
So. You've got loads of professional
expertise and we're really interested to hear from you in
regards to the impact you are seeing on boys from the
influence of online misogynistic influencers, the manosphere,
harmful content and porn. What are you seeing from from
your work? Yes.
What we're seeing is that there's a variety of impacts and
it's really not just impacting on boys and it's impacting on
all of us because boys and girls are are, you know, part of our
society. Now I know that I'm, I'm my
language is using that is very binary, but just for the
purposes of this, this conversation, we're going to, I
think it's important to kind of do that.
But boys are not necessarily seeking this information out.
They're very much maybe just being online, catching a video,
and then the algorithm starts pushing it and then they're not
quite sure what to do with it. And then it can kind of go a
number of different ways. Some of those boys might be
interested in that. It might be aligning a little
bit with what they're seeing in their daily lives or what
they're hearing from their friends.
And some boys might be really rejecting it, but then are in a
tough situation because other boys might be talking about
this. And as an adolescent, part of
growing up is is trying to fit in, right?
So that can make it very, very difficult to navigate that space
and kind of have a very staunch stance on that and kind of say,
no, I'm not going to engage with that because again, there's just
kids, you know, forget that sometimes.
And then obviously there's then that knock on impact on girls
and how boys are engaging with young girls, for example.
And there was some research done by Vodafone actually in February
or this year and they were saying that I'm just looking at
my notes here. They've got, um, 69% of boys
have been exposed to online content that promotes misogyny
and, and over half of them are aware and have engaged with the
content from influencers with ties to the manosphere.
And, and 59% of those boys were led to this content through
innocent searches. So they weren't even looking for
it. It just kind of popped up and
and then one in five parents said that they had noticed a
gradual change in their young person's kind of language and
demeanor. And this was the one that kind
of really blew me away was that 70% of teachers are seeing an
increase in kind of sexist language in the classroom.
So we're kind of seeing that the impact, as always, is a lot
wider than just that boy who's seeing that that content online.
Yeah, and. It's really interesting where
you say the boys aren't necessarily looking for it, but
it's presented to them. What would you say in terms of
for parents, how can they go about safeguarding their kids?
Are there effective ways of ensuring or hoping or, you know,
steps to take to limit the exposure of this content to our
children it. Kind of starts with, we talk a
lot about this within professional settings.
We talk about a safeguarding culture, right?
But that exists at home too. And I think it's about creating
an environment where we talk about things that are difficult.
And what does that look like? While I was working in
ChildLine, for example, a lot of kids, it's very raw, right?
Because they're, they're calling us and we don't know anything
about them. We have no idea what's coming.
They've just decided to pick up the phone and talk.
And we will always ask them like, well, have you, have you
tried talking to your mommy or daddy about this?
Like, and then, then they'll say no, they'll never understand
because I don't ever see them having problems, right?
And it really taught me something as a mom that it's
important to show children and to model behavior around
problems that you might be having, obviously within reason,
right? But kind of say, oh, I had this
confrontation today. What do you think about that?
I'm not quite sure what to do with that.
And so engaging them and like, what do you think?
And is this the right thing to say?
Is that the right thing to do? Because then you're modeling.
If I have a problem, the thing to do is to talk about it,
right? And then you're creating that
environment, that safeguarding culture within your home to kind
of say, yeah, there's stuff out there that's uncomfortable, but
we're going to talk about it. And one of the things I very
often say is that if we don't talk about it with our children,
somebody on the Internet will for sure, for sure.
So we have to constantly be that one step ahead and which is
difficult because a lot of us, you know, I was born and raised
in the 70's. The only thing I have to worry
about or my parents had to worry about was like, don't go to that
neighborhood, It's dodgy. That's it, that's it.
He'll be home before night. And now parents have to navigate
that part of it. But also what's happening online
and what do I understand about what's happening online?
And so there's lots to that, but it takes a little bit more time,
which which is difficult for us because you're on with have that
time. But we need to make it.
We need to sit down with their young people and go, what's
that? What does that mean?
Why is that funny? I don't get it.
You know, that creates that sense of, yeah, I can talk about
this if I need to and. Is there practical things around
online safety around different apps around access?
So my daughter has, she's only 9 and she has Roblox.
She got her own laptop. Every time, every time she
downloads something, it sends a notification to my phone or my
wife's phone. And the other day she downloaded
a a game on PlayStation. And I was like, why did you
download Fortnite? And she was like, oh, I forget
you get the emails. But it's, it's a good way of us
controlling, I guess, what she's downloading.
But what would you say in terms of that kind of stuff, like the
practical tools that we can use to actually monitor, have a look
at what they're accessing. Yeah.
It it's like anything, you know, if, if you don't know how to use
the tools at your disposal, they're not going to work.
So you need to do that research and see what makes sense, but
also what makes sense for my child.
And it also can depend on their age and it can also depend on,
you know, neurodivergency. Some young people who are
neurodivergent respond very well and social media and apps like
YouTube, for example, can can provide content that is very
soothing to them. So you might have to deal with
that very differently for that child as opposed to a young
person who's maybe a little bit older, who's not, you know, on
the spectrum or anything like that and their level of
understanding. So again, it's about how well do
I know my child and what makes sense for us?
But ultimately, knowing that, you know, you can contact your
Internet provider and let them know that the devices for a
child, you know, that might lock some stuff down.
You can get, you know, filters on your phones, you can get
blocks on your phones. Like a lot of these apps, you
know, they're 13 plus. And so it's again, about
educating yourself about what these platforms are, how
children can use them. We're by no means saying that,
you know, kids shouldn't have phones or, you know, shouldn't
be on social media because that's that's just not the world
that we live in. But it's about us as parents
being very, very proactive in thinking, what parameters do I
need to put in for my child, not just technologically, but also
in terms of that conversation. What are you looking at?
How long are you looking at it? Yeah, because some of those
apps, like you were saying, Elliot, you know, they can tell
you that, you know, you've been on TikTok for 20 hours.
That may or may not be a personal statement for me.
You know, you have those things that are, that are available to
you, but then use them, talk to your child about that and talk
about why those boundaries are so important and because that's
ultimately our job, too, with parents.
Yeah. Of course, what my my kids, my
my partner is in charge of the IT in the house, right, because
I'm a feminist. But you know, there, there are
jobs that are his take the bins out.
You deal with the tech. But, and we thought all of our
technology was locked down. It had full parental controls
over it. We were really confident.
And somebody said try Googling. I'm not going to say the name of
the website, but a website, pornography website, try
Googling it, see if you can get into it.
And I did and I got straight in and I went, I've been since
then, I've been to friends houses and talked to them about
it and they'd say, Oh no, we're completely locked down.
There's no way my kids could get on anything.
And I say try Googling this website and they Google it and
they get straight in and it's a horrible website with very dark
things on it. What, what would you say parents
should be checking to, do you think?
I mean, firstly, would you encourage parents to do that, to
do their own checking to see if they can get into certain
websites themselves? I mean, I will say actually as
well, at the school my eldest goes to, somebody in the his
class said try Googling 69. And they did and they again saw
content relating to not the numerical 69, shall we say.
And that was at the school where they obviously believe they have
everything completely locked down.
Ultimately, it's left me feeling very uncertain that you can
never completely lock a device down and and that you can never
keep keep your kids completely safe from seeing that sort of
content. What advice would you give?
Definitely that. Don't be complacent.
And there is, you know, algorithms and the online world
is changing all the time, sometimes while you're looking
at it, right. So there's that, that element of
nothing is 100%. And that's a really scary place
to be as a parent. But you know, kids walking down
the street isn't always 100% safe.
Equally, being online is not always 100% safe.
Exactly that that, that example that you've given and, and how
do you use filters like what we noticed as well for children who
were accessing child line, for example, they couldn't access
child line at home, so they were accessing it at school.
But there is reference and child line around sexual abuse and
sexual assault. But because the word sex was
banned and the filters in school, they couldn't access it.
So now what do we do? Right?
So it's about recognizing what tools do we have at our
disposal, technologically speaking, let's use them.
But let's not just rely on those things.
Let's also create that culture of this stuff is probably not
OK. And if you see it, what do you
need to do about it? How do you talk to me about
that? It's OK to talk to me about
that. And and that that bit about
educating yourself around what what's what's around language
even changes. I don't know if you folks
noticed, like, I sent something to my daughters because I think
I'm hilarious and they sent like crying emojis, I would say, but
they said that's what a laughing emoji emoji is now.
And I was like, OK, and did that, you know, that's how
quickly things change. So it's about having those
conversations with your kids and and creating an environment
where this is what we do when you're on your phone, give you
privacy. But every now and again, I'll be
like, who you talking to? What's happening?
Yeah. What's going on?
Do you think it's OK? I'm my son doesn't have a phone
yet, but when he has one, I'm going to say to him, I'm going
to do spot checks on you. I'm going to at any given point,
you can only get this phone. If at any given point I can take
that phone off you and look through what you've been, who
you've been talking to, what you've been saying and, and what
you've been looking at, which I have talked with the parents
about it. And some are like, oh, no,
that's too far. You, you're invading their
privacy. But I feel that's the only way I
will feel confident with him having any sort of device.
What do you think about that? I think it's like with anything,
context is everything, right? So if we're explaining that the
reason that I'm doing this is because there's stuff around
that I don't necessarily want you to have access to.
So this isn't about me disrespecting your right to
privacy. What you absolutely have.
This is my job to keep you safe. I need to understand what's on
your phone at what kind of messages you're getting.
But again, if we're having those conversations with kids about,
you know, who has your phone number, who do you give your
phone number to? Because it's so it's as easy as
I've now been put in a group with people that I don't know
who now can all see my phone number, right?
So that happens all the time And and I sometimes happens, you
know, without your permission. So how do we change those
settings? How do we make sure that kids
are talking to us saying I'm, I'm in a group chat now, but I
can see everybody's numbers, I don't want them to see mine.
Educate yourself about how we can take that off.
But obviously those aren't the only sites.
You could have gaming sites, for example, about how do I put in
those controls there? Because, again, we might think
my kids upstairs playing a video game, they're maybe not doing
that on their own, right? Who's literally in that room
with my child right now? How are they speaking to them?
You know, take that time. It doesn't always have to be,
like a formal thing, you know, come into their room with a cup
of tea. OK.
What are you playing? Who's playing?
Yeah. What are you, What are we
talking about? Can I hear it's about inserting
yourself in your child's life, which is really difficult for
teenagers because the whole point of being a teenager is
you're finding your own way. You're finding where you fit in
with your clothes, with your language, with your music.
You're finding who you are. And you need that, that chance
to kind of extricate yourself from that, that family dynamic,
which is natural and normal and proper and, and healthy.
What there's that aspect of you're still also a child in my
responsibility, you know? I love that advice because I
feel like as a society, we haven't necessarily been told to
do that so much. You know, I posted today on my
LinkedIn about limiting screen time, and I had a message from
my dad who said, you know, I love your work.
I love what you talk about. But I sent this to my wife and
she said that that limiting screen time thing feels like
we're taking power away from my children.
And it feels like we are discouraging trust.
And I kind of went back and said, look, of course we need to
lead with trust and openness. But at the same time, we're
still their parents. And there still needs to be
boundaries. And we still need to be OK with
telling them to do things that they may not like to hear, but
we know are good for them. What are your views on like
limiting screen time, for example, You can't take your
phone to bed. No phones at the dinner table,
et cetera. Like what were your views on on
parents doing that? I think it it, it kind of goes
back and I research just tells us that, you know, that kids get
stuck online watching, you know, social media and, and it's
designed to keep you there. That's why it's so addictive.
So how do we help them manage that impulse?
How do we help them do that? And, you know, you can try
different things. You know, you can say, let's
make a deal. You're not going to be online
after 10, depending on age. Yeah, whatever time.
And if they're able to do that, we're good.
If they're not, you're breaking a boundary in a rule that I've
given you. So now I'm going to take your
phone away at 10 and you'll get it back in the morning.
It's about helping them regulate themselves as well within an
online world, which is really difficult for us as, as parents.
How many times do we get stuck scrolling and like, then two
hours later you're like, oh, OK, what?
It's, that's what it's designed to do.
So again, being honest about that and having conversations
about that, that that's not healthy because you need to
sleep and you need to do other things.
And and my personal opinion again, creating that
safeguarding culture within our family is we don't have our
phones on the dinner table them. I I had my Barnet done
yesterday. Now this is relevant.
I'm not just showing off. And my hairdresser who is
brilliant and he's in his 20s, he has a baby on the way.
I talked to him about adolescence and asked him his
thoughts on it and we ended up getting into a really good
conversation. He had grown up with screens.
I hadn't. And I asked him what he'd seen
when he was younger, Violent, horrific content.
And he said as soon as he went to secondary school, so year
seven, he was exposed to all sorts of horrible stuff, like
really horrible stuff, ISIS, beheadings, really graphic,
violent porn. And he said, I saw it, but I
just went, oh, well, that's horrible.
And he said, yeah, it made me feel sick, but but I just
rejected it. I just was like, well, I don't
want to look at that, but that's just awful.
Why would I want to look at that?
So he saw it, felt sick, moved on.
And he said it it didn't damage him at all because he was like,
I know the difference between right and wrong and I know that
that's just not very nice. I said, did you speak to your
parents about it? He said, of course I didn't.
I said, did you speak to friends about it and how it had made you
feel? He said, no, of course I didn't.
I just absorbed it, felt sick about it and and moved forward.
And I found it very reassuring because I think after watching
adolescence, we can all be really terrified that once our
kids have seen something really disturbing that it's going to
affect them for the rest of their lives.
And actually, his message to me was, no, that's not the case.
But he was very careful to say. But I didn't grow up with Andrew
Tate and the manosphere in cell groups were not part of my
youth. It was just really graphic,
horrible content that I was exposed to.
And it does feel to me there was a difference between kids seeing
these disgusting things on the Internet and then being
brainwashed by the likes of these Intel groups and the
manosphere. Yeah.
And there's, there's a process there too, right?
Because if, if it, if it a young person sees something very
graphic that that shock factor could put them off.
But it's those gradual little things that they're hearing here
and there where their boundaries are starting to crumble a little
bit. You know, their friends talk
about women in a certain way and they think it's funny.
Oh, and, you know, somebody maybe in their family says
something rude about, you know, a woman or describes a woman in
a certain way. They're picking up on all of
these little signals. And I think that we forget that
sometimes with teenagers because, you know, they're,
they're sometimes, you know, bigger than we are.
They're walking around and and you think that they're adults
and they're not. They're still children.
They're still sponges. Their brains are processing
everything all the time, all the messages.
And again, part of the adolescent brain is figuring out
what does the world look like and what is my place in it,
right. And if you don't have a secure
base, then you will try to find somewhere where you belong.
You're going to try and find somewhere where you feel seen
and unsupported and and there is that insecurity again, natural,
normal part of being an adolescent is that you're going
to feel insecure. You're going to think you look
weird, you're going to think you're not the prettiest, you're
going to think you're not the muscliest, all of those things.
And if there's nothing on the other side in terms of your
family and your environment supporting you, saying no, we
love you. We want to hear what's going on
for you. Were interested in you.
You know, we're interested in your dreams.
Not every child has that. So they're going to look for
something where they might feel seen and that might feel hard.
And it's just so, so difficult. And we saw in that that show
adolescence, there were lovely people that were just parents,
you know, doing their best, working hard.
And it's, it's a, it's a difficult space to navigate.
But as I said earlier, if we don't talk to our kids about it,
somebody on the Internet will. So Inuka, if you know, at the
beginning, you said parents are seeing the impact on their
children. They're acting differently,
their sons having different views, maybe being a bit more
reclusive. What should they do?
What what happens? I've already seen the content.
We think they're being influenced by these influences,
these Intel groups. What next?
What would your advice be for parents to do?
Yeah. And, and some of those signs can
be about, you know, as you said, withdrawing, they're on their
phone even more. They're secretive around being
on their phone. But equally they can be really
excited and really happy, right? So all of a sudden their life is
amazing. And we love to see that, of
course, but it's like what, what, what flipped that switch,
right? So any kind of change in the
child's behavior, significant child change in the child's
behavior, we need to clock in on that him that necessitates us
really understanding our children though, right?
Because now this is not normal for you.
And I can see this is not normal for you.
So a really important thing, as most of us know, is stay calm.
Might not feel calm, but we're going to fake it till we make
it. And we're going to freak out
with our friends. We're going to freak out with
our partner. But right now with my child, I
am calm as the deep blue sea. And we're just going to be like,
what did you mean by where? Did you hear that?
OK, that's interesting. Does that make sense to you?
Just have that that conversation and very often having that
conversation does not mean sitting down with a child.
We often hear that, don't we? An advice from from different
sources, like sit down with your child and talk to them about it.
The best way to shut down a conversation with a child is sit
down with them face to face. They will not talk to you.
They won't do something. We're going to go for a drive
when it gets in the chicken Nuggets.
Awesome. Let's go.
He's you know what you said the other day about that thing?
I've been thinking about it, yeah.
And you're both kind of sitting in the car traveling along, or
you're doing something, you know, you're playing pool or
you're fishing. I don't know.
You're giving space to the thing that's freaking you out to the
child in a way that is safe and accessible for them.
Because your child might not in that moment be prepared to say
anything, but they will have heard you because the message
here is you're interested. You care about me and you
noticed. And they might need a little bit
of time to percolate on it. Give them that time and then
come back to it. But definitely help them open up
in that way by creating that environment where we can talk
about things and and also knowing where to get help for
them. So you might not want to talk to
me, but you can call ChildLine or have you talked to your
friends about it? So again, it's about opening up
that conversation and the possibility of that conversation
and also being educated yourself, Know what the
manosphere is, understand what misogyny looks like, understand
where else that child might see that in the family or in their
environment and address it. Address it.
So calling them out if they're saying something or they're
making comments about women in a certain way.
And it can be very powerful as well that that challenge comes
from an important male figure in their life.
You know, like, whoa, what? What was that?
Where did that come from them? My eldest had that statistic,
the Channel 4 research that Gen. about Gen.
Z and whether they think feminism has gone too far.
It was something like 48% of thought.
Jen said boys think feminism has gone too far and now boys are
experiencing sexism. And he heard it on the radio and
he said to me, I agree with that.
And so we had a conversation about it.
But I posted about it and said what would you do in that
scenario? Lots and lots of people said to
me, I would have sat down with him and explained the patriarchy
and explained the history of women's fight for equality.
And to me that that didn't feel like the right solution.
Because actually screaming patriarchy in his face when he
was telling me something that was his experience of the world
felt like the opposite of what I should be doing.
And even though I am staunch feminist who spent the last 10
years fighting for women's rights, so it's really hard for
me not to do that. Instead, I asked him what he
meant and asked him to elaborate on where that had come from and
empathize with what he was saying.
Because actually that is his what he was saying is his real
experience. Me telling him that that's not
true would would be counterproductive to me.
What? What would you say parents
should do in that? Yeah.
Totally agree with that. You know, I always try to put
myself in the situation. If somebody was talking to me
like I'm planning to talk to you right now, how would I respond?
Am I going to shut it down or am I going to engage with it?
And it's so important for children to hear that their
experience is valid and something that they are allowed
to talk about. Whether we agree or not about it
is like phase two, right? First, we're going to let them
know that I hear you. I hear you.
Help me understand what that means.
Help me understand what that looks like for you and how does
that leave you feeling? And some kids will be able to go
into that level of emotional detail and talk about, and some
kids will. And then we can start teaching
them. I think that there's definitely
a place for teaching children about the world, how it's
worked, why it is the way it is. And but it's about timing,
Timing everything. Time is everything.
Yeah. If you're if you're stuck in
your feelings and you're really hurt and sad about something,
you don't want to hear the theoretical explanation about
why that might be. You want to have somebody say,
OK, I hear you. And again, that opens up
conversations. That creates an environment
where we talk about this kind of stuff.
Powerful. Conversation, thank you so much
from NSPCC perspective, what what, what are you, what are you
doing to support parents and support children?
Is there anything that we should be plugging into what's going on
there? Talk to us about NSPCC and how
you're supporting parents and so.
NSPCC has a lot of different elements to it.
So we have pages on nspcc.org that you can access for
information about this. And we've got content on talking
to your children about like fake news, hoaxes, scams, things like
that, but also how to keep yourself safe online.
We have some content or as well around, you know, the manosphere
and the impact that has on children.
We also have our helplines. So we have an adult helpline,
which you can call, which parents have done, you know, for
advice. And it's a, it's a helpline that
people can call if they have a concern about a child, they see
something in the neighborhood that they're not quite
comfortable with. Or if you're a professional and
you have a concern about a child, you just need some
advice. But we have had parents call us
and say, listen, my son is talking about Andrew Tate and
has been expressing really kind of shocking language.
And I just don't know what to do them.
So you can contact that helpline and you can also contact trial
line as a child to talk about things that are worrying you.
So ChildLine does have an confidentiality policies.
So we don't report anything that you say.
So you can call us anonymously and if a child needs to ever
talk to us about anything that that's on their mind and.
So. Valuable.
I mean, honestly, this is so I really when I was younger,
ChildLine was a threat that I'd use against my parents.
I'm calling ChildLine. I've had enough.
But actually this is so needed, isn't it right now?
And I have actually used your help e-mail, not the advice
line. I sent an e-mail to NSPCC
because of a child that I was worried about that I knew.
Thank you. The advice was just incredible.
So thoughtful. So puts the person responding
put so much thought and effort into it.
I was so impressed. And it was really unexpected.
Yeah, so I mean, thank you for existing.
Like really? No.
I'm such a valuable. Service I'm.
So lucky. I kind of pinch myself every day
to think that I'm actually working for this organization.
And what I love about my organization is that it always
asks us as staff to be brave, which is something that that
just spoke to my heart in terms of where do I want to work?
Where do I want to do this work? And it's with NSPCC because they
asked us to be brave and stand up for children.
And we work very, very hard with other organizations to ensure
that we're always, you know, evidence based, that we're
always coming from a place of we know this because the stats are
telling us. We know this because kids are
telling us. And that's why things need to
change. And then we also have been
working with Vodafone to create a toolkit that people can access
as well, either on the NSPCC website or on the Vodafone
website. There's loads of resources on
our nspcc.org website, but we also have an NSPC learning
website which has as podcasts, research papers.
But it will also give you access to training that you might be
interested in or consultancy for organizations that are working
with children and young people to kind of get, you know, their
policies right or if they they need any training around
safeguarding children you've. Been brilliant, thank you so
much the new card, I really appreciate it.
Myself a lot thank you and we're.
Going to leak all of those resources in the show notes as
well, but thank you so much. Thank you.
What an episode, what an episode.
Adolescence is a phenomenal show and I've enjoyed this episode so
much. You know, we chewed the fat.
We gave our reflections on on the show.
We spoke to Sarah, not her real name, the mother who spoke about
her child and her experiences. Thank you so much.
That was powerful. Sarah.
Blue haired Sarah, our psychologist, spoke about the
impact on children and then we finished with Anuka from the
NSPCC giving us some real practical advice and takeaways.
It's been incredible. We want to hear your views.
Please e-mail us to Be a Boy team@gmail.com.
Let us know what you thought about the show, what you thought
about our reflections, our guest this episode.
Thank you so much for sticking with us to Be a Boy podcast
signing out. See you later.