1 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:08,109 The. Mother Kind Podcast explores how 2 00:00:08,109 --> 00:00:11,870 to feel happier, more confident and empowered in your 3 00:00:11,870 --> 00:00:16,070 motherhood, even in our world of pressure judgement in 4 00:00:16,070 --> 00:00:18,590 comparison. I'm your host, Zoe Blaski, and 5 00:00:18,590 --> 00:00:21,750 every week I speak to an incredible expert to share 6 00:00:21,750 --> 00:00:25,630 actionable steps and powerful lessons to living your life as a 7 00:00:25,630 --> 00:00:29,590 mother with more joy and unapologetic confidence. 8 00:00:29,790 --> 00:00:33,030 Listen wherever you get your podcasts, just search Mother 9 00:00:33,030 --> 00:00:47,750 Kind. Beyond Equality have been 10 00:00:47,750 --> 00:00:51,510 working with boys for over a decade, facilitating workshops 11 00:00:51,510 --> 00:00:54,430 with thousands of boys around the world in schools and 12 00:00:54,430 --> 00:00:58,190 universities, hosting brave discussions about what it means 13 00:00:58,190 --> 00:01:01,310 to be a man today. They disrupt expectations and 14 00:01:01,310 --> 00:01:05,110 stereotypes and equipped boys and men with new perspectives, 15 00:01:05,430 --> 00:01:08,480 kick starting a process of community change, personal 16 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:13,000 development and gender equality. It's safe to say there are few 17 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:16,800 more people in the UK that know more about the reality of young 18 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:18,840 boys growing up in the world today. 19 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:22,960 From mental health, the manosphere, isolation, game 20 00:01:22,960 --> 00:01:26,680 addiction and body image, we're going to explore the complex 21 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:31,120 experience of being a boy today and what educators, teachers and 22 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:35,080 parents can do to help. So we are so glad to welcome 23 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:38,640 Beyond Equalities Managing Director Dan Guinness and 24 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:41,760 Director of Facilitation Ben Hurst. 25 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:44,320 Welcome fellas, welcome, welcome, welcome. 26 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:47,040 You have been doing this work for a long time. 27 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:50,120 I remember standing on a train platform many years ago when I 28 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:52,800 started music, football, fatherhood and coming across the 29 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:55,800 Good Lad initiative and we connected that and this must 30 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:58,640 have been over a decade ago now. We've been doing this work for 31 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:01,800 it for years. And I know the last couple of 32 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:03,360 months must have been crazy for you, right? 33 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:05,760 Adolescence has come out. It's changed the national 34 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:08,160 conversation about being a boy. So I just want to start off with 35 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:11,320 seeing how you are. Like, how have the last couple 36 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:13,240 of months been for you? How's your well-being? 37 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:15,680 How's your energy levels? What are your thoughts and 38 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:18,240 feelings? What has life been like in 2025 39 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:20,400 for you both? Well, I'll jump on this one 40 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:22,880 first because I've had the luxury of having a couple of 41 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:26,280 weeks holiday in April, which was extremely needed and has put 42 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:29,800 me in a much better place. But I think, you know, when 43 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:33,000 things like these happen where all of a sudden the national 44 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:35,640 attention just gets focused on a particular issue. 45 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:39,440 And you've been there trying to work on a trying to get other 46 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:42,680 people involved, you know, slowly but steadily building 47 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:45,840 things up for a decade. It both feels really exciting. 48 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:49,880 It feels sometimes like there's this pressure of like we need to 49 00:02:49,920 --> 00:02:53,240 we need to do everything all at once right now because we're not 50 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:56,240 going to have another chance. But then it's also about having 51 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:59,880 a bit of experience and saying, well, no one's going to fix this 52 00:02:59,880 --> 00:03:02,640 problem in the, the two weeks that the adolescence 53 00:03:02,640 --> 00:03:04,280 conversation is really going to be going. 54 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:06,880 We've got to think about this a bit longer term. 55 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:08,280 We've got to build up a bit slower. 56 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:13,440 So I, I personally are feeling like I'm shifting into that. 57 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:16,680 OK, like let's get back to that building on those foundations 58 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:19,800 sort of space, which for me is a much better mental health and 59 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:22,600 type of position to be in. But it was a pretty crazy couple 60 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:25,200 of weeks or crazy couple of months really. 61 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:30,440 And I know probably even more so for Ben, who is like thrust into 62 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:34,040 the limelight and speaking in all sorts of different places in 63 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:36,360 some pretty interesting sort of ways. 64 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:39,160 Yeah, I'm tired, bro. I'm tired, man. 65 00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:42,840 I am tired of it. I mean, it's been, it's been 66 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:44,800 amazing. It's been a great opportunity. 67 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:48,480 And I think it's weird because you spend your whole, I guess in 68 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:51,680 our case anyway, this has been a large chunk of both of our 69 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:54,760 careers at this point. So we spent a lot of time like 70 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:58,000 building towards this kind of moment. 71 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:00,040 And then when the moment finally arrives, it's super weird 72 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:01,280 because you're like, oh, what do you like? 73 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:03,920 What do you do now? I, I think in my mind, I just 74 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:05,920 was working without the expectation that anything was 75 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:07,880 going to like people actually ever going to care. 76 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:11,560 And, and so it's been like very energizing in lots of ways. 77 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:13,800 It's been a real exercise in humility. 78 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:16,560 I think actually like for me on a personal level, I've found 79 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:20,120 that like, I can be more gatekeeping than I thought I 80 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:22,160 was. And I'm very like precious about 81 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:25,160 like ideas and ways of communicating things. 82 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:29,400 And so that's been an exercise in like allowing things to kind 83 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:32,320 of like happen outside of my control. 84 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:35,160 I think the way that we work here is like we're, we're very 85 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:38,040 focused on like quality assurance and making sure that 86 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:40,280 the messaging is right and the tone is correct. 87 00:04:40,280 --> 00:04:41,800 And I think especially when you're working with men and 88 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:44,480 boys, you only really get one shot, you know, so you've got to 89 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:46,800 be super careful about like which narratives you're putting 90 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:48,840 out. But that's been like, it's been 91 00:04:48,840 --> 00:04:51,720 amazing to see it, to see it grow and to see it happen. 92 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:54,600 And, and I think also on a personal level, it's been very 93 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:56,200 interesting. I feel like it's like re 94 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:59,760 radicalized me in some ways. Like I feel like I've like, 95 00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:02,680 we've been in Parliament a lot. We've been in Parliament a lot. 96 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:05,080 I mean, we're in parliament before, but we've been there a 97 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:06,720 lot in the last couple of months. 98 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:12,800 And so I think, yeah, it's really instilled in me the role 99 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:16,760 of like activists and the role of activism in society as being 100 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:18,880 the opportunity to like speak truth to power. 101 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:21,680 And, and so lots of opportunities to like sit in 102 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:25,040 rooms with people who I imagine don't here know very much, you 103 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:27,080 know, and that be the person in the room that's like, that's a 104 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:29,400 bad idea, which is incredibly awkward. 105 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:32,240 It's a, it's a strange dynamic, but like, it's being cool. 106 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:36,080 And yeah, more than anything, I think just lots of like parents, 107 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:39,520 lots of teachers, lots of carers who are very, very concerned. 108 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:42,320 And so like a really important piece of work to just like 109 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:45,120 reassure people that the fact that they're interested or 110 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:47,000 they're thinking about it means that they're in the right place 111 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:49,320 already. And so, yeah, like a very like 112 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:51,720 exhausting, challenging, but amazing. 113 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:55,760 I got to host the premier for adolescence in the UK and so I 114 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:58,040 was chatting to the cast about what they were doing and that 115 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:00,680 was really cool. And I made a video essay for 116 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:02,440 Netflix, which was also really cool. 117 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:05,200 And but like, that's even, that is like a weird thing 'cause 118 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:07,520 you're trying to distill all of these thoughts, you know, as you 119 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:10,160 know, right, like the first time you watch it, your brain is like 120 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:12,440 peeing off. And so it's like chopping all of 121 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:15,720 that down to 11 minutes from like 4 episodes, 4 hour long 122 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:19,160 episodes is a tall task. But it was, it was a cool 123 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:22,120 experience. And, and yeah, really grateful 124 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:26,080 for for the opportunity to spread this conversation a bit 125 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:27,560 further. And that's what we want, right, 126 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:29,800 is we want everybody to take hold of it for themselves. 127 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:32,520 And I'm glad that it's that it's you guys in the room, right? 128 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:35,920 And I think sometimes when this happens, said the wrong people 129 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:37,280 can be in the room again with the platform. 130 00:06:37,280 --> 00:06:39,480 And I was just happy that it was, you know, you guys have 131 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:41,840 been given the spotlight and you know what you're talking about. 132 00:06:41,840 --> 00:06:45,080 And you add value in a in a in a sensible, reasonable way. 133 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:47,040 You know, the way adolescence took off was crazy. 134 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:49,000 I remember seeing an interview with Ashadi. 135 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:51,360 I still call him Ashadi. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 136 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:56,560 I remember him saying, oh, it's the biggest thing I've done, 137 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:57,600 like the week before it came out. 138 00:06:57,600 --> 00:06:59,160 And I was thinking, OK, whatever. 139 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:00,360 I like dismissing it kind of thing. 140 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:02,720 And then Jodie, we got that e-mail from a journalist at The 141 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:05,840 Times and we kind of kind of shared our our reflections on on 142 00:07:05,840 --> 00:07:07,720 the issues. And initially the next week, 143 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:08,840 it's like the whole world changing. 144 00:07:08,840 --> 00:07:10,040 It's. The biggest thing you've ever? 145 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:12,760 Seen, yeah, in Africa, in the Seychelles, emailing, being 146 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:13,560 like. What do you think about 147 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:15,040 adolescence? I'm thinking you're in a 148 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:16,440 different continent. How have you seen it? 149 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:19,320 Yeah, well, obviously Netflix is available worldwide because 150 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:22,040 obviously adolescence was a great, a great show. 151 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:26,760 What do you think about the plan of showing it in schools, 152 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:28,200 though? What are your thoughts on that? 153 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:32,560 Yeah. No, I, I mean, we've had these 154 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:36,040 conversations a lot and in my mind, I think it's just a bit of 155 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:38,480 a, you have to be so careful when you answer this question 156 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:41,400 because especially because I'm now in my mind, I know the 157 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:45,360 people behind the the idea And I think the way that I understand 158 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:49,080 it coming about was like they were so the, the writers of the 159 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:52,560 show and Stephen Grain included, were like having all of this 160 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:55,320 attention and people were like looking to them for solutions. 161 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:57,880 I think the show doesn't propose any solutions. 162 00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:01,000 First of all, right, it's not like a toolkit or a guide to 163 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:04,120 working with boys or changing challenging masculinities. 164 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:06,200 And, and so I think they found themselves in this very like 165 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:08,880 pressurized situation where people are like, well, you've 166 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:10,880 raised all of our awareness now what do we do? 167 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:13,880 And they like, as you would do in that scenario. 168 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:15,360 I think they were just like, well, why don't we show it to 169 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:17,680 kids? And so people took that and ran 170 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:20,080 with it. And I can understand how that's 171 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:24,400 like a, a good idea for somebody who doesn't necessarily know 172 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:27,200 what to do in the scenario. But I think when you really 173 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:30,080 unpack it and like look at the logistics of what's going to 174 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:32,159 need to happen and how that's going to work. 175 00:08:32,159 --> 00:08:33,919 And like, I always feel so bad for teachers. 176 00:08:33,919 --> 00:08:36,400 I feel so bad for educators because I just, I always have 177 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:39,159 this image in my mind of like a geography teacher who really 178 00:08:39,159 --> 00:08:42,080 loves geography and like, they're super passionate about 179 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:43,960 like rocks. And so they went to university 180 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:46,440 and did a degree in geography and now they've ended up like 181 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:49,280 teaching in a school. I don't necessarily think 182 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:51,480 they're there because they want to talk to kids about this kind 183 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:53,760 of stuff, you know? And I think like, so often as a 184 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:57,120 society, we just palm these responsibilities off onto people 185 00:08:57,120 --> 00:08:59,760 who are no, like, they're not equipped to do it. 186 00:08:59,920 --> 00:09:01,720 They haven't had the training. They're not having the 187 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:05,000 resourcing. And so I think it's like, yeah, 188 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:07,560 like, maybe, maybe a scenario where something is better than 189 00:09:07,560 --> 00:09:09,640 nothing. But I think in our work, what 190 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:12,040 we've also discovered is sometimes like nothing is better 191 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:13,920 than something when something has no plan. 192 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:16,320 And so it seems like a lot of pressure. 193 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:17,960 I think there's going to be a lot of teachers in very 194 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:20,960 difficult scenarios. I don't think the show was made 195 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:23,000 for kids. So I guess that's like a a point 196 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:27,640 of contention is like how Abel is a 13 or a 14 year old to lack 197 00:09:28,680 --> 00:09:30,680 critically engage with this material. 198 00:09:30,680 --> 00:09:35,440 That's like super nuanced, like so, so nuanced and, and I think 199 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:38,480 also I feel for like a lot of the women teachers in schools 200 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:41,520 who maybe are going to be expected to be like facilitating 201 00:09:41,520 --> 00:09:43,880 these conversations, having experienced some of this stuff 202 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:46,560 themselves in their own lives. And so I just wonder, yeah, like 203 00:09:46,560 --> 00:09:47,640 that. I think there's a lot of 204 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:50,880 conversation that needs to happen to like buff the plan out 205 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:53,800 and, and maybe like a lot of resourcing and, and tool kits 206 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:56,280 and that kind of stuff. But I think, yeah, it's it's one 207 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:59,080 of those moments where something needed to happen. 208 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:02,320 And and that seems to be the the thing that we've gone with. 209 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:05,880 I mean, I, I told Keir that I didn't think, I didn't think it 210 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:07,720 was a good idea. I was like, buddy, this is not, 211 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:09,480 this is not the right, the right. 212 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:11,320 Because you're talking. About Keir, Yeah, yeah. 213 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:14,160 Mr. Starmer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 214 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:19,360 And I think, yeah, it's a, it seems like a, a very quick 215 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:21,240 solution. I think that's what we want, 216 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:22,640 right, is we want the silver bullet. 217 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:25,120 We all want the thing that says if we just do this, it will 218 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:27,560 solve the problem. And the hard reality is that 219 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:31,520 there is no silver bullets. Yeah, maybe, maybe a bit of a 220 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:34,400 silver bullet moment, but we will see how it pans out. 221 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:37,120 And I think there's hope for some of it to be turned into 222 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:40,400 something that can be quite positive given the teachers are 223 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:42,360 given the support in the scenarios, you know? 224 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:44,800 Yeah, and shout out to the teachers, man. 225 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:47,640 I mean, we're out on Friday actually where I live. 226 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:50,640 We went to the town and we saw one of my daughter's teachers 227 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:53,280 going into a restaurant and we were just about to go in and we 228 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:55,720 talked to her and she said she's having a like a teacher catch up 229 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:56,560 night. They're having a day off. 230 00:10:56,560 --> 00:10:58,960 I was like, we're not going to follow you into that restaurant. 231 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:02,360 You have your time because you can't be like letting your hair 232 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:03,200 down. And you can't. 233 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:05,120 Yeah, you go. Some of the parents and the 234 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:07,040 kidney teacher and the next table. 235 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:08,520 Yeah, yeah, yeah. You need your time. 236 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:15,200 You need your time to relax. So the big conversation has been 237 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:19,400 going on around what it means to be a man and what healthy 238 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:22,320 masculinity looks like. It looks like what it feels 239 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:23,840 like. And the reality is masculinity 240 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:25,840 has evolved and is evolving, which is a good thing. 241 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:28,840 But I think there is a lot of confusion about, OK, So what 242 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:30,920 does that mean? Well, how do I show up as a man? 243 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:33,480 Like, how do I, how do I relate to work? 244 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:34,840 What does success look like for me? 245 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:37,920 What does it look like for me as a as a parent, as a carer, as a 246 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:41,320 provider, as a protector? Are those things still valid? 247 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:43,600 Can they work all at the same time altogether? 248 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:46,440 And I'd be really interested to get your views based on your 249 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:48,160 work. The boys you've spoken to. 250 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:51,240 What do you think healthy masculinity looks like? 251 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:54,800 What does it mean to be a man, a boy today I. 252 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:57,640 Mean this is a question that actually so many young people, 253 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:00,440 so many how many adults are wanting to talk about now you've 254 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:03,080 got all these messages coming. You've got there seems to be 255 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:06,040 this drumming up of this idea that on one side like men are 256 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:07,880 under attack and we don't know what's going on. 257 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:09,960 And and then other people are saying like, actually you need 258 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:12,120 to be something really different from what your father's were 259 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:14,840 from what your uncles were. So there there is this live 260 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:18,040 moment where people are coming with with some bigger questions 261 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:21,600 and some confusing questions. I'd say like one of the really 262 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:27,360 core things in our approach is that we would say, I will say I 263 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:30,320 shouldn't be the one that's defining what what you think 264 00:12:30,680 --> 00:12:34,480 your identity is about Elliot or any other man in this world. 265 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:37,080 You know, I'm not the person who needs to say here's the three 266 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:40,080 boxes you need to tick. Here's what you need to do. 267 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:44,320 Here's basically how you emulate me or emulate someone else. 268 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:46,680 Instead. What's really important in that 269 00:12:46,680 --> 00:12:50,040 space is we're actually helping people to recognize the way that 270 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:54,400 they've been conditioned into various ideas and to see when 271 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:57,040 actually some of those ideas, some of those expectations, some 272 00:12:57,040 --> 00:13:00,600 of those those things they think they need to live up to might be 273 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:02,920 massively harming them and harming the people around them. 274 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:07,720 You know, and then you have this work about, well, let's actually 275 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:11,000 have some space so that people can figure out who they want to 276 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:13,320 be. You know, like so often in our 277 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:17,360 society, we just spoke about previously where we're trying to 278 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:20,520 solve things with really quick answers. 279 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:24,800 We sort of throw, Obviously technology is now AI is going to 280 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:26,400 solve absolutely everything for us. 281 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:30,280 But when's this moment where we actually give people that 282 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:34,680 opportunity to take time and really work through who do they 283 00:13:34,680 --> 00:13:37,840 want to be like do some of that investment in humans and in 284 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:40,760 actually who they are, who they care, what their character is, 285 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:42,880 how that shows up for the people around them. 286 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:46,360 And that then becomes this, this piece where people need to work 287 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:50,320 out well, how do my ideas about who I want to be as a person 288 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:54,520 relate to my identity as a man, the sorts of roles I play in my 289 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:56,680 family? How does it relate to other 290 00:13:56,680 --> 00:13:59,320 aspects of my identity? How does it sort of change when 291 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:03,720 I'm in different spaces? And I with that, like actually, 292 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:07,480 when we, when we stay, take a step back from our work, what's 293 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:11,280 really important is giving people those opportunities to 294 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:14,160 actually work through some of the critical conversations about 295 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:18,760 what, how do I understand and express my emotions? 296 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:22,080 You know, is that the sort of thing that I'm not doing because 297 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:24,840 I've been told that men can't cry or that I'm not doing 298 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:29,400 because I, even though my mates all raise money for Movember, I 299 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:31,680 don't want to be the one guy who's always asking for help. 300 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:34,160 I want to be the guy who's solving other people's problems 301 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:38,040 or, or questions about how am I showing up in my family? 302 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:41,680 Like my wife actually wants to stay home quite a bit and look 303 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:44,800 after our kids. But I don't want to just step 304 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:48,360 out of that and go back to this role where I'm at the office all 305 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:50,880 day every day for the next 15 years. 306 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:54,320 Like, how can we actually have that as a conversation between 307 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:57,240 US and think about it as as being like, what are our 308 00:14:57,240 --> 00:14:58,680 aptitudes? What are our desires? 309 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:01,960 How are we going to make the balance in answering all of 310 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:04,320 this? It becomes live questions that 311 00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:07,600 are ongoing questions. You know, it's, it's not going 312 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:10,800 to be a simple thing of like, here's one thing or three things 313 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:14,840 you have to do as a man to have like masculinity that's healthy 314 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:17,040 and it's good. But it's rather going to be 315 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:21,280 like, here's some competencies that we can build up for you 316 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:24,720 around relations, around relationships, around emotions, 317 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:28,120 around what success is, around how you manage your money, how 318 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:30,600 you manage your time, how you manage your energy, how you look 319 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:33,480 after yourself, all these so many different things. 320 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:37,400 How can you make sure that that's actually actively getting 321 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:39,680 looked at? And men are given that space to 322 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:42,640 think that through and talk to each other and build up for 323 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:45,320 themselves what is like a healthy identity? 324 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:46,920 What is a healthy role they can play? 325 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:52,400 Who should be doing that? Should it be a mix of parents 326 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:54,760 and teachers and people in community groups? 327 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:59,040 Or do you think it really should be focused on the parents and 328 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:04,080 from quite a young age, sitting with their sons and saying, like 329 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:07,760 I sometimes say to my boys, what kind of father do you want to 330 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:09,560 be? I do want to have children. 331 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:11,760 Then I say, and what kind of father do you want to be? 332 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:16,760 And they used to look at me like I'd lost my mind and my, I said 333 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:18,720 to my eldest recently, do you want children? 334 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:21,040 And he said, I'll let the wife decide. 335 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:26,400 But you know I. Her body, her choice. 336 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:27,480 Yeah. Yeah, I like that. 337 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:29,120 It's good. It's good. 338 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:33,160 But I, I try and ask them these provocative questions to like 339 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:36,440 get them thinking. But I, you know, so I guess the 340 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:39,080 question is, should it be the men asking the boys? 341 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:43,240 Does it work as well if it's women asking the boys and, and 342 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:45,840 who should be doing that? Whose responsibility should it 343 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:47,480 be? My quick answer, because I think 344 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:50,200 Ben will have a lot more here, is that ultimately we want to be 345 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:53,480 trying to build up around all young people and any young 346 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:56,800 person, multiple adults who are having able to have that 347 00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:59,680 conversation, who they can touch in with at certain points. 348 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:02,080 Like it might not be that they're speaking to the same 349 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:05,560 person every year of their life. Like we know that like many of 350 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:08,800 us went through periods where our parents were the last person 351 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:11,440 people we'd want to talk to about absolutely anything at 352 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:13,119 all, let alone something personal. 353 00:17:13,599 --> 00:17:16,760 I would think like from a societal level, we want to be 354 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:19,839 making sure that we're actually equipping teachers, that we've 355 00:17:19,839 --> 00:17:22,680 got more youth workers who are involved in people's lives, that 356 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:25,920 people who are part of community organizations or faith groups or 357 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:27,920 whatever it might be where you're having contact with young 358 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:31,120 people that there's more of that confidence and competency to 359 00:17:31,120 --> 00:17:34,440 have those conversations. But yeah, absolutely fathers 360 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:37,920 have a huge role to play if they're there or male carers or 361 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:41,360 other men in people's lives have a really big role to play if we 362 00:17:41,360 --> 00:17:44,480 can actually help them to take take that part and give them the 363 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:46,320 support and, and various other things. 364 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:48,160 So they're they're really confident having those 365 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:50,560 conversations. I think it's such a good 366 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:52,360 question. I think the reason that I find 367 00:17:52,360 --> 00:17:55,440 it interesting because I feel like masculinity as a social 368 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:57,960 construct is policed by other people. 369 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:00,280 Do you know what I mean? Like, I've heard someone say 370 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:03,760 once that, like, masculinity or gender doesn't exist in 371 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:05,840 isolation. So it only exists as, like, 372 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:08,560 comparing and contrasting between other people. 373 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:11,960 So you only know that you're, like, hypermasculine or not that 374 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:14,440 masculine based on how other people are around you. 375 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:18,120 And I think that the the easy answer is like, yeah, obviously, 376 00:18:18,360 --> 00:18:20,960 obviously parents should talk to their kids about that stuff. 377 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:22,880 Men should talk to their sons about that kind of stuff. 378 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:26,320 But I think the hard answer is really that like, actually the 379 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:29,360 way that this stuff really works is that every individual just 380 00:18:29,360 --> 00:18:31,800 has to have that conversation with themselves as a starting 381 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:34,080 point. Because I think so often we like 382 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:36,800 turn this conversation into a conversation about saving other 383 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:39,680 people or helping other people to arrive at good conclusions 384 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:43,160 where the reality is, like for lots of us, we've never had the 385 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:47,080 luxury or taken the time to like sit down and interrogate our 386 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:49,040 relationship to gender for ourselves. 387 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:51,640 And I think when you you do that work, there's so much that like 388 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:55,040 spills out into other people from like having those 389 00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:57,640 revelations in yourself or like doing that thinking or like 390 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:00,720 doing that exploration. So actually I think the real 391 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:03,800 work is getting guys, whether they have kids or not, like to 392 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:07,240 do that thinking for themselves. And then I think so much of what 393 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:12,040 is distilled also watch so much of what's disseminated is like 394 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:15,240 passed on through this like silent kind of osmosis. 395 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:18,040 You know, like most kids are not sitting down and having 396 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:20,800 conversations with their dads about what it means to be a man. 397 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:24,160 Like I always remember being like 14 and thinking 01 day, my 398 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:26,160 dad's going to teach me how to shave and he just never did. 399 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:28,200 So I kind of like figured it out myself. 400 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:31,160 But I think as a boy, you wait for that moment of like the 401 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:33,240 passing of the torch or the lessons that you're meant to 402 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:34,400 learn. And for lots of us, that just 403 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:36,960 never really happens, but we kind of just learn it by 404 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:39,240 observing. So I think for lots of men, if, 405 00:19:39,320 --> 00:19:41,640 if they're able to, especially for fathers, if they're able to 406 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:45,600 do that like thinking and work in themselves and really think 407 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:48,320 about the man that they want to be and how that shows up in the 408 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:51,320 world, then their kids learn that just by observing them and 409 00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:53,160 by that role modelling. So I think that that's really 410 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:54,840 important. And there was also you asked 411 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:57,040 about how we define healthy masculinity. 412 00:19:57,040 --> 00:19:59,440 I think it's again, a really interesting question. 413 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:02,640 I feel like we've spent like the last decade kind of dodging the 414 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:05,080 question. Because I think part of it is 415 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:08,360 that like being prescriptive about masculinity is maybe where 416 00:20:08,360 --> 00:20:11,400 a lot of the harm is caused. So telling people what type of 417 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:13,720 man they're supposed to be is difficult. 418 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:16,920 And, and even if we changed it and made masculinity like, 419 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:19,240 instead of being strong and being a leader and being 420 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:21,840 dominant, we changed it and it was being gentle and being kind 421 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:24,400 and being caring. All of those things when they're 422 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:27,840 linked to power can become corrupted and become toxic 423 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:29,560 anyway. And so we just have a very 424 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:32,080 different version of what good masculinity and negative 425 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:36,360 masculinity looked like. But I think actually for me, the 426 00:20:36,360 --> 00:20:38,680 place I've arrived at, whenever I get asked this question, I'm 427 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,200 always like, it's like a Hippocratic Oath of, of 428 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:43,080 masculinity. So just a masculinity that like 429 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:46,640 causes no harm to yourself and causes no harm to other people 430 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:48,680 around you. And if you can have those as 431 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:52,200 like guiding lights, as like beacons for you of like where 432 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,320 masculinity is positive and where it's not positive, then I 433 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:57,400 think maybe that leads to to good outcomes. 434 00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:00,360 Because we know that the outcomes for guys themselves are 435 00:21:00,360 --> 00:21:02,960 like pretty poor in terms of like mental health, in terms of 436 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:06,440 men's violence against men, like all of that, like drug and 437 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:08,400 alcohol abuse, all of those kinds of things. 438 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:10,960 So I think if you start with a masculine that just doesn't 439 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:14,520 cause any harm to you as an individual, you're off to a good 440 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:16,440 start. And then once you add in my 441 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:19,040 community around me and how do I make sure I'm not harming 442 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:22,360 anybody around me, I think you probably arrive at a version of 443 00:21:22,360 --> 00:21:25,920 masculinity that exists within community that's maybe quite 444 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:29,480 inherently positive because it's just doing good stuff for people 445 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:31,120 around it and for itself, you know? 446 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:33,560 I love that, Really, really love that. 447 00:21:34,120 --> 00:21:37,680 I definitely relate to men having to have that conversation 448 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:39,800 themselves. So when I go into workplaces and 449 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:44,160 do kind of masculinity talks and workshops and whatnot, for a lot 450 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:46,760 of those men, it's probably the first time they've ever had kind 451 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:48,560 of to confront certain conversations. 452 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:52,160 And these are big men right in their 40s and 50s and 60s, 453 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:54,360 sometimes near retirement. And they're actually for the 454 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:59,120 first time ever thinking about kind of, you know, health and, 455 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,760 and, and their relationship and their parenting and their 456 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:05,520 relationship to their emotions and help seeking. 457 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:07,120 It's the first time they've ever done that. 458 00:22:07,120 --> 00:22:09,000 And they're big men. And so, yeah, I definitely feel 459 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:10,840 like we need to create more spaces for men to be able to 460 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:14,040 have that conversation and also meant to come forward. 461 00:22:14,080 --> 00:22:16,760 Sometimes those spaces are available, but because of the 462 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:19,360 ideas of masculinity, those men don't come in the room in the. 463 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:22,560 Yeah, exactly. And they do turn up and think, 464 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:24,160 actually, this was great, like we loved. 465 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:26,240 This why did I do this earlier? Yeah. 466 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:28,880 Yeah, we do amazing events in football clubs and you literally 467 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,480 get a tour sometimes. You get to meet players, you get 468 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:33,760 a free lunch. And still some men will be like, 469 00:22:34,120 --> 00:22:36,080 oh, I'm not sure if it's for me. And I'm like, are you all right, 470 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:37,240 mate? Like this? 471 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:39,320 Is. This is an amazing opportunity, 472 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:42,640 boys. Let's talk about boys in terms 473 00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:45,840 of challenges that boys face. What do you think are from the, 474 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:48,560 you know, thousands of boys you've spoken to across the 475 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:50,600 world? What are the challenges that you 476 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:52,480 hear coming coming out time and time again? 477 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:54,840 The things that boys are really struggling and battling with at 478 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:56,480 the moment? It's the same stuff, man. 479 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:57,880 It's the same stuff. It's always been. 480 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:00,840 I think actually, and I, I think this is where it's like a really 481 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:03,800 strange concept. It's like nothing really ever 482 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:05,880 changes. So I think like for teenage 483 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:09,440 boys, they're all going through puberty and the normal brain 484 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:11,400 development stuff that's happening in puberty is taking 485 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:13,280 pace. So they're experiencing peer 486 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:14,960 pressure. They want to differentiate from 487 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:16,920 their caregivers. They're trying to establish an 488 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:18,440 identity. They're trying to be different 489 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:20,840 to adults. They want to not do what they're 490 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:22,920 being told to do. They're leaning into risk taking 491 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:24,520 behaviour. All of that kind of stuff is 492 00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:27,640 very normal for them. But I think also there's these 493 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,760 kinds of aspects around developing relationships that 494 00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:32,320 are like quite difficult for them. 495 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,320 And I think, I mean, I always feel feel like it's really 496 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:38,240 difficult to like cast your mind back to when you were 13. 497 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:42,320 But if you can get there, like you'll probably remember that 498 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:44,480 like everything in the world felt like the biggest thing in 499 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:46,720 the world. And it was actually the biggest 500 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:48,240 thing in the world at the time because it was all you'd 501 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:50,960 experienced, right? But like, I think relationships 502 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:54,040 are super difficult. I think popularity is a big 503 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:56,320 conversation for them. They want to, they want to be 504 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:59,160 liked, they want to find their place, they want to find their 505 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:02,080 community. I think maybe in a more 506 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:04,720 pronounced way now, probably because of the state of the 507 00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:08,000 country and lack the state of the economy, I think boys are 508 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:10,520 feeling this pressure around making money and being like 509 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:13,920 providers and, and they know that that role is like in some 510 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:15,800 ways, a birthright that's been promised to them. 511 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:17,640 It's what masculine is always been. 512 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:20,680 And but it doesn't seem as accessible as it once did. 513 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,400 It doesn't seem like just doing the right things will land you 514 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:26,480 in a position where you can get all of that stuff and be that 515 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:29,880 person. I think they, they want to be 516 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:32,120 powerful. They want to feel like they have 517 00:24:32,120 --> 00:24:34,000 agency in the world. They want to feel like they make 518 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:37,360 decisions for themselves. And, and I think also something 519 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,520 that maybe we don't talk about a lot is like their awareness of 520 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:45,400 violence. I think boys are very aware that 521 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:49,840 there's this like constant threat or danger usually posed 522 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,920 by other guys and and usually posed by older guys, but they're 523 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:57,680 very aware of danger and risk and they're like often quite 524 00:24:57,680 --> 00:24:59,480 wired and it becomes very normalised. 525 00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:02,400 So they don't even know that that's inhibiting or altering 526 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:04,960 the ways that they're thinking. Can I? 527 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:06,040 Sorry. Yeah, of course. 528 00:25:06,360 --> 00:25:08,920 Is that a new thing? My 11 year old is about to go to 529 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,280 secondary school in September, is obsessed with this. 530 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:13,720 He wants to do boxing classes, self defence classes. 531 00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:16,280 He's obsessed with the idea. He's going to go to secondary 532 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:18,520 school and he's going to end up in constant fight. 533 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:19,800 It's. Going to be prison rules, yeah. 534 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:21,200 He's going to have to fight, survive. 535 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:23,960 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, survival of the fittest. 536 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:26,520 Yeah. It's that I mean that, you know, 537 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:29,800 I am a woman, grew up a girl. The threat of violence was not 538 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:33,640 something that consumed my every waking thought, it seems to him. 539 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:36,320 Is that a new thing do you think, or has that always been 540 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:38,520 the case? I mean, I think it's easy for us 541 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:41,160 to think of it as a new thing, but like, I think, I mean, I 542 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,040 remember being a kid and watching wrestling, right? 543 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:46,080 And like watching, just watching anything that was like violent 544 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:48,320 for the sake of violence, like Power Rangers, they were 545 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:49,640 shooting people's heads off and stuff. 546 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:51,840 Like all of that stuff is so normal. 547 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:55,040 I think as a as a young guy, as a boy that you learn to like, 548 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:58,240 you come to expect that that's going to be the rules of 549 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:00,120 engagement. And that's just how the world 550 00:26:00,120 --> 00:26:01,880 works. And so I think different kids 551 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,680 take that to different extents. Like there are some kids who are 552 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,840 naturally at 11 or 12, the tallest kids or the, the oldest 553 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,880 kids in their year. And so they don't feel like, as 554 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:13,120 threatened by everybody else. But I think especially if you're 555 00:26:13,120 --> 00:26:16,400 a small, like a, a, a little boy, you know, and you're 556 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:19,040 waiting for that first growth spurt that usually comes around 557 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:21,920 like 15. Like there's a real fear and 558 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:23,960 pressure and a knowledge. And then you walk into, 559 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,400 especially walking into secondary school, you're walking 560 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:28,760 into an environment where you've been the biggest and now you're 561 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:31,280 the smallest again and everybody's going to treat you 562 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:34,080 like you're the smallest. And And so I think, yeah, in 563 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:37,200 some ways it's probably pronounced by like, as many 564 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,680 things are by like the social media age and access to like all 565 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:42,880 of these different ideas floating around on the Internet 566 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:46,040 and influencers telling us what things are going to be like for 567 00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:48,040 us and what things we're supposed to like. 568 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,880 But I think there, that's always been like a bit of a common 569 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:52,000 thread. But I don't know, Dan, if you 570 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,520 think the same thing, you might think something wildly 571 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,000 different. Rarely, rarely do I think so 572 00:26:57,360 --> 00:26:59,240 wildly differently. I mean, I agree with that. 573 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,280 I think those, there's those constants that have been there 574 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:05,120 right in that transition moment. We can also see some of the 575 00:27:05,120 --> 00:27:09,360 impacts of maybe the patient, sorry, the social isolation that 576 00:27:09,360 --> 00:27:12,840 happened during Covic things like this kind of adding to that 577 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:15,200 story. And then you have various 578 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:19,240 cultural moments that happen in particular areas or, you know, 579 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,480 and you see some of these come through, whether it's getting 580 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:25,240 driven by the media or driven by social media or actually driven 581 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:27,920 by events that are that are happening around people that are 582 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:31,160 impacting upon upon those perceptions of what's going on. 583 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:35,760 You know, and that that might be something like adolescence 584 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:38,200 coming on the screen. And then thinking about that, it 585 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:40,760 also might be them experiencing things with, you know, with the 586 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,840 race riots and then thinking about that and that impacting 587 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:45,560 upon people. And that could be really 588 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,560 different for different boys across the country. 589 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:52,200 Yeah, I've got 2 girls and my eldest is 9 and it's like the 590 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,960 flip side, like I'm trying to encourage her to embrace the 591 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:57,400 violence, not. To to box people in the face, 592 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:00,920 not. To go around flying people but 593 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:02,840 more self defence. Then you clarify that. 594 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:05,880 But you know the area that we're living now, it was nice like 6 595 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:07,800 years ago. It's changing a lot now and 596 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,280 there are weird characters. So every time we're walking 597 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:12,040 around, I'm like, did you see that guy? 598 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:14,000 What would you do if he ran out to you? 599 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,880 What would you do if they came and snatched your bag? 600 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:20,280 I'm always trying to prepare her to like be aware of her 601 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:24,160 environment first and foremost and just understand that she has 602 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:26,400 agency and she can defend herself. 603 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:28,800 And I, I just think about that. If I had a boy, maybe I'll be 604 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:31,720 trying to tone it down or as with her trying to dial it up a 605 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:33,840 little bit so she's aware she can navigate in the world. 606 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:35,920 You know, she'll be going to secondary school in two years 607 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:38,800 and getting the bus by herself. So she needs to be aware of, of 608 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:41,000 the world. We kind of touched on this with 609 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:45,360 with the kind of pre empting the violence, thinking that you're 610 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:46,600 going to have to protect yourself. 611 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,200 And I want to talk to you about body image, maybe a topic that 612 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:52,040 doesn't get spoken and the focus that it deserves when we're 613 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:54,320 talking about boys. I think historically we've 614 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:56,720 thought a lot about young girls and women when we think about 615 00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,320 body image issues. But I think there is so much 616 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:02,160 pressure now to look a certain way, to have muscles, to present 617 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:05,200 in a certain way as a boy more than maybe we had when we were 618 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:07,320 that age. How does that show up in the 619 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:09,400 conversations? Is that a focus that you find 620 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:12,200 boys are thinking about what they look like? 621 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:14,280 Their body image is an issue that you're seeing coming up 622 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:17,120 quite a lot. Yeah, pen slides make me talking 623 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,480 great. Yes, in certain places and and 624 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:23,400 in certain ways, absolutely. This is like a an issue. 625 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:26,280 And it's one that's grown a lot over the past 10 years that 626 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:29,880 we've been we've been working. And I think one of the really 627 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:33,880 important things to, to remember here is there's not actually 628 00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:39,840 like one physical model of what a man looks like or should look 629 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:43,600 like, you know, or what like the ultimate male or men's body 630 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:46,920 should actually be like. That changes over time. 631 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:49,200 It changes the parent depending on where you are and who you're 632 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,040 working with. I mean, I've, I've seen this a 633 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:54,200 little bit myself, you know, having moved around to different 634 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,400 countries and also like sort of moved maybe even more 635 00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,200 noticeably. I, I play a lot of sports and I 636 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:04,000 actually noticed like what's looked up to differs a lot 637 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:07,200 depending on like what, what activities you do. 638 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:11,240 You know, when I was a rugby player, it was kind of the, the 639 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:12,920 biggest, strongest, most muscular guy. 640 00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:15,200 But as long as you could actually still run, you know, 641 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:17,680 you needed to be able to move around a bit and that shifts 642 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:19,680 massively. I've got some friends who are 643 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,520 into cycling and you, you're looking for a different body 644 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:26,640 type in that sort of space. So I think some of this is, is 645 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:30,440 important to remember because it's, it then stops being about, 646 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:35,120 is it just that men are getting pushed into thinking about their 647 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:38,600 body image more and feeling a sense of shame and things if 648 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:41,720 they don't look a certain way or a rush as a, as a 12 year old to 649 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:43,600 somehow look like you're a 30 year old. 650 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:48,760 And it starts to also be like, well, watch which of those 30 651 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:50,720 year olds are they getting pushed to look like? 652 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:55,280 And I think that's where there's been like a big rise in, in the 653 00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,160 sort of bodybuilding images that have come through. 654 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:01,480 And we see that playing like a big part, like various 655 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:04,920 aesthetics that sit around there, which are not attainable 656 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:09,880 for the vast majority of people without a significant investment 657 00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:13,240 of time and probably use of steroids. 658 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:15,800 So it's there's there's some concerns around not just the 659 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:18,320 sort of pressures, but also the direction that those pressures 660 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:22,320 are going and how how young men and men in general actually 661 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:24,400 adapting and thinking about those. 662 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,600 Ben's been involved in a study that was just released by 663 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:32,760 Movember looking at the influence of of of particular 664 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,160 influences online on young men's lives. 665 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:37,600 And something that really struck me there. 666 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:40,280 I'll listen. I should get the exact numbers 667 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:44,920 out, but I think it was 20% or just short of 20% of people who 668 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:48,640 were flowing following those influences had used to stuff 669 00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:53,320 testosterone or steroids. And these are guys who are, I 670 00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:56,520 believe under the age of 25 or anyway under the age of 30, like 671 00:31:56,520 --> 00:32:00,800 the young, younger men. And then still it was something 672 00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:04,040 like 8 or 9% of the people who weren't following those online 673 00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:08,800 influences were also using or had used those sorts of things. 674 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:15,080 So it's, it's an interesting direction and particular push 675 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,400 that that men are experienced at the moment that I think is 676 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,520 really important for us to to recognize with our young people, 677 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:24,440 give them smart information about how to actually look after 678 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:27,560 their bodies, treat them well. Yeah, like, fantastic. 679 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:29,800 Learn how to use them in different ways, strengthen them 680 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:32,840 in different ways, But maybe to focus more on that health, that 681 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:36,840 mobility, that functionality, as opposed on trying to fit into 682 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:40,520 somebody else's aesthetic and someone else's idea about what 683 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:44,080 you should be as a man. It is that hyper vigilance, 684 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:44,680 isn't it? I feel. 685 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:47,160 I feel like as, as guys, and especially as young guys, we're 686 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:49,920 catching up to like the space that women have had to inhabit 687 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:52,680 for a long time where all of these narratives are being 688 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,080 thrown at them all the time about what they're supposed to 689 00:32:55,080 --> 00:33:00,240 look like. I feel like the privilege of 690 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:03,200 being a guy or one of the privileges of being a guy used 691 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:04,720 to be that you just didn't really have to care. 692 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,000 And it was like, even though there were still criteria, the 693 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:09,480 criteria was really money. And that was the only thing that 694 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:10,840 mattered. So like no matter what you 695 00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:13,720 looked at or no matter what you looked like, as long as you had 696 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:16,880 money, you'd be fine. But now I think boys are like 697 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:21,960 super aware and like in the same kind of like tornado of ideas 698 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:24,200 that's whipping around about who you're meant to be and what 699 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:27,520 you're supposed to be like. And, and we do like a a man box 700 00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:30,760 activity at the start of one of our workshops where we get the 701 00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:34,400 boys to write down or like throw words at us about what they 702 00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:36,160 think society says men are supposed to be. 703 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,640 And there's always this like 666 idea, which is I think it's like 704 00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:43,360 a six pack 6 foot tall and a six 6 inch penis. 705 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:46,880 You're supposed to have to be like viewed as an attractive 706 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:49,120 man. And so I think they are super 707 00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:50,880 aware. They know that there's this 708 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:53,120 pressure on them. I think what you said was right, 709 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:55,360 Dan, that like actually depending on where you are in 710 00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:57,040 the world, that can look very different. 711 00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:01,400 Like if you're living off the coast of Australia on on some of 712 00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:03,280 the islands, right? Like there's a very different 713 00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:06,880 image of what masculinity looks like and what a man's body is 714 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:09,280 supposed to be like. And as opposed to like if you're 715 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:12,560 living in East London, there's like, again, a very set image of 716 00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:14,920 what as opposed if you're living in the north of England, right. 717 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:16,760 I think it changes depending on where you are. 718 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:20,600 But I think the big difference is that as men, we are now all 719 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:24,120 very aware and a lot of us are like comparing ourselves to 720 00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:28,040 other men and, and particularly to men who like, are building 721 00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:31,400 their careers by like working on their bodies, You know, like 722 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:33,920 professional bodybuilders, professional actors, you have 723 00:34:34,199 --> 00:34:37,120 trainers and nutritionists and that's their job to dedicate 724 00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:39,719 their time to like body like change in the way that their 725 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:42,560 body looks at maintaining that. And for the average guy who's 726 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:46,280 like going to work 9:00 to 5:00 every week, you don't have loads 727 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:49,400 of time to like invest in that kind of stuff as well as other 728 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:51,239 areas of your life. So I think there's a lot of work 729 00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:52,560 that needs to be done in that space. 730 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:56,960 Yeah, yeah, a lot of people get paid to count calories and put 731 00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,000 on muscle and. Yeah, do that like the cruise, 732 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:00,600 Yeah. Yeah, from the outside, you 733 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:01,840 don't realise that's their job, right? 734 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:04,560 That's their nine to five. That's that's not realistic for 735 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:07,760 for most people without a extreme level of dedication. 736 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:10,200 That research that you mentioned from November, I think it's 737 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:14,120 Young Boys. Digital Lives Online also found 738 00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:17,120 that for young boys that engage with the manosphere content, 739 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:19,560 they are more likely to think that a man's role is providing 740 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:23,680 was 81% of the young boys who engage with one or more of those 741 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,880 influences. But we still found that 64% of 742 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:29,960 boys who don't engage in a manosphere still feel like one 743 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:32,560 of the primary roles as a man is to provide. 744 00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:36,200 Does that resonate with the conversations you're having with 745 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:39,720 boys on a day-to-day basis? Absolutely. 746 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:41,760 Yeah, a lot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 747 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:44,840 The most recent, most recent focus group that we came back, 748 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:47,120 we just asked them one question. It's like you had our workshops, 749 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:49,840 like what would you actually like to talk about more? 750 00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:52,640 And like there was like 3 different versions of like 751 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:54,720 success money, like where to get the cash. 752 00:35:54,720 --> 00:35:56,520 Like they just kept on giving me the cash. 753 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:01,880 I just want to talk about that. I'm not not that they probably 754 00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:03,960 wisely not that they thought that we could provide the 755 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:06,760 answers about where the money came from because it's not been 756 00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:09,360 our strong point, but. We don't know. 757 00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:15,960 They, yeah, they want to have that conversation because it's, 758 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:18,240 it's a thing that that they're threatening about. 759 00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:22,160 And I, I think there's this message that's out there that's 760 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:24,720 strongly pushed in, in lots of different avenues in different 761 00:36:24,720 --> 00:36:26,600 ways. And it's kind of like for a man 762 00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:30,280 to be of any value to anybody, like to his family, to his 763 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:34,200 community, to anything, he's got to go and create something and 764 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:36,320 he's going to go. And that creating it means like 765 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:38,480 providing for the people around him, bringing the money in. 766 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:41,280 Whereas I think often the message that there is around 767 00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:45,120 women is, well, you've got this, you know, with many negative 768 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:48,480 sides to it, but you've got this intrinsic value of being the 769 00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:52,960 carer, being being the provider of the next generation that 770 00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:56,560 there is is something that you know, you can, you can also rest 771 00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:59,040 your, you know, rest on and provide to the people, to the 772 00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:00,840 family, to the community and everything else. 773 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:03,080 And, and being seen as being valuable for that. 774 00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:06,200 Obviously huge issues with that sort of pressure and on 775 00:37:06,240 --> 00:37:09,200 pigeonholing of women. And also massive issues as I 776 00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:13,640 know you talk about around men not actually being able to 777 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:17,560 really jump into that deeply satisfying work of caring for 778 00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:20,480 their friends, for their family, you know, and maybe later on in 779 00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:23,400 their lives for, for their children or or other young 780 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:25,920 people in their lives. And it's, it's a real shame and 781 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:28,760 it's a real issue. So we think having that 782 00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:30,920 conversation about money is crucially important. 783 00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:33,960 You can't just tell people, no, you're stupid for wanting to get 784 00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:37,120 rich or you're stupid for, for thinking that your friends will 785 00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:39,840 respect you more if you, you could pay for some stuff that's 786 00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:42,520 not going to help anybody. But you can do a slower bit of 787 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:45,560 work of actually trying to open up and allow people to see that 788 00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:48,400 they've got other things in their life that that they find 789 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:50,840 rewarding that they know is special about them. 790 00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:53,520 And other people actually value and connect with more, whether 791 00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:57,000 that's trust or friendship or or whatever else it might be. 792 00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:59,920 I was interested to hear what what, Yeah, how this is popping 793 00:37:59,920 --> 00:38:01,160 up in conversations you're having. 794 00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:05,480 I mean, I, I'm not having this conversation yet with my kids 795 00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:09,800 who are 11 and 9. The provider and money stuff 796 00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:12,680 hasn't come up yet, but I'm, we're hearing it a lot. 797 00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:17,840 Aren't we on this podcast that that the pressure for boys to 798 00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:22,000 be, which now is huge and it doesn't just come from the 799 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:24,240 messaging they're getting online, but also from other 800 00:38:24,240 --> 00:38:31,720 girls that actually there is a pressure now on girls to marry a 801 00:38:31,720 --> 00:38:35,280 wealthy and to look at the bank balance of the person that 802 00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:38,520 they're dating. And so, you know, no wonder 803 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:41,080 there is the pressure on boys to have money. 804 00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:43,160 I think, yeah, such an interesting point. 805 00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:45,960 Like one of the things I mean, we avoid as an organization, we 806 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:49,480 avoid talking about what women's role is in the conversation 807 00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:51,960 because I think actually that's probably a conversation that 808 00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:55,080 women just should have with women, You know, like, I don't 809 00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:58,000 know if they, I think it's maybe too easy of a scapegoat for us 810 00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:00,320 to as men to be like, well, women do this as well. 811 00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:03,920 But I think actually there is a reality there that like these 812 00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:07,120 norms and these narratives are socially constructed, right? 813 00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:09,280 Like, and that means that it comes from every direction. 814 00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:11,880 It's not just men who are creating content online. 815 00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:14,800 I think the interesting thing with that Movember research was 816 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:17,800 that it was like, felt like almost like some sometimes 817 00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:19,840 people are looking for something to blame. 818 00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:22,880 So we want to blame the manosphere for the state of men 819 00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:26,640 in the UK today. But actually the percentages are 820 00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:30,560 over 50 percent, 64% of guys who are not accessing this content 821 00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:33,360 who still believe that thing about men being providers. 822 00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:38,040 So that norm exists outside of these Internet kind of spaces, 823 00:39:38,240 --> 00:39:41,040 and it is perpetuated by all of us in lots of different ways, 824 00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:44,760 right? Like my stepdaughter is 22 and a 825 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:47,120 couple of years ago we were having a lot of conversations 826 00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:51,360 about what she believed the role of a man was in dating. 827 00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:53,440 And that was a really interesting space because I 828 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:57,080 think she'd picked up all of this stuff from online and and 829 00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:00,760 didn't realize that like it was it was like in opposition to 830 00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:02,840 what she actually believed as a person. 831 00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:05,680 And so these ideas of black men should have money and they 832 00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:08,480 should pay for the privilege of your time and they should do all 833 00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:11,080 of these things. I think again, provides a lot of 834 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:13,320 pressure, but I think there's a real space there for us to 835 00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:16,520 reimagine what provision looks like for men. 836 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:19,520 And I don't think it means that we have to like tell men that 837 00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:21,920 they should try not to be providers. 838 00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:24,400 But one of the interesting conversations that I find we 839 00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:26,840 have with men, especially on like some of our longer form 840 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,840 programs. Is around like when we get into 841 00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:32,400 this idea of men being providers, for men to go back 842 00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:35,840 and reflect on their childhoods and think about what provision 843 00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:38,320 they received from their fathers and what provision they feel 844 00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:41,760 like they wanted to receive. And so often for lots of men, 845 00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:44,280 it's like my dad did. He was financially supporting 846 00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:46,560 the family and that was great, but he didn't talk to us. 847 00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:50,160 He didn't spend time with us or he didn't teach us how to do to 848 00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:53,000 do things or have fun with us or play or do any of that kind of 849 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:54,880 stuff. And actually, all of those 850 00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:59,560 things are also valid forms of provision that we can strive for 851 00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:01,480 and, and maybe really important, right? 852 00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:03,800 Like in the ways that we carry ourselves, in the ways that we 853 00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:06,120 engage in community and with family and all of that kind of 854 00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:08,160 stuff. So I think there's a lot of 855 00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:12,400 space there for boys to and for men, especially to start 856 00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:15,880 reimagining what provision is and what provision looks like 857 00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:18,920 and why it's of value and grounding that also with the 858 00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:22,720 reality of like in the country, we're facing the cost of living 859 00:41:22,720 --> 00:41:26,440 crisis, which is a crazy phrase in and of itself, like a cost of 860 00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:29,080 living. But that aside, like everybody's 861 00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:31,440 broke, right? Like we don't have, we don't 862 00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:33,200 have money. Like, like we used to have 863 00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:34,920 money. And so maybe some of this is 864 00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:38,640 about creating models of returning to like community care 865 00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:42,080 and provision where we all chip in and we all like help each 866 00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:43,840 other out. And some of us know how to like 867 00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:46,000 lay flooring or some of us know how to paint walls. 868 00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:49,240 And that's how we care for our community, rather than one man 869 00:41:49,240 --> 00:41:53,000 being an island and having to do everything by himself and all of 870 00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:54,760 that responsibility just resting on his shoulder. 871 00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:58,080 I think there's some important rethinking for us to do that. 872 00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:03,520 I mean, as a woman who with two kids who spent the last 10 years 873 00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:07,960 campaigning for the rights of mothers in the workplace, you 874 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:12,280 can feel like, I think, you know, younger generations of 875 00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:15,480 girls are sensing from our generation that what we've ended 876 00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:19,200 up doing is, is everything Like we've ended up having great 877 00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:23,040 careers and doing the majority of the care and domestic labor. 878 00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:25,800 And that younger generation of girls, many of them are looking 879 00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:29,160 at us and going, no thanks, I do not want that. 880 00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:31,040 It's not. Yeah, exactly. 881 00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:34,440 So some of this narrative around what they expect from boys 882 00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:37,520 perhaps comes from this push back against the changing role 883 00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:40,920 of women and seeing that it's really not working for us. 884 00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:46,400 And so you have the trad wife phenomenon of them completely 885 00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:49,280 pushing back against everything that's been achieved over the 886 00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:52,440 last 60-70 years. And you can see the way that 887 00:42:52,720 --> 00:42:56,000 that this younger generation are translating all of that is 888 00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:58,840 having an impact on boys and them being confused about that 889 00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:01,360 role. But also this pressure provider 890 00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:03,760 is going to stem from the confusion. 891 00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:07,920 But actually what we need is for everybody to to be involved in 892 00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:10,920 the caring and the domestic labour, everybody to be involved 893 00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:13,920 and have an opportunity to make money and have careers if that's 894 00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:16,200 what they want. And we sort of feel like we've 895 00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:18,960 lost that narrative a little bit with this generation. 896 00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:21,760 Yeah, I agree. I think we need to stop defining 897 00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:24,720 roles as masculine and feminine and just understanding that 898 00:43:24,720 --> 00:43:27,120 everyone is different, everyone has strengths and desires. 899 00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:30,880 And a large part of my work is encouraging dads to be equal 900 00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:33,360 parents at home. You can still provide, you can 901 00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:35,920 still make lots of money, you can still rise to senior roles 902 00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:38,040 at work. That that's all good, right? 903 00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:40,080 That's nothing wrong with that. We should encourage that. 904 00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:43,120 But we live in a world now where we can work flexibly and where 905 00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:47,280 we have remote working, where we have autonomy and it is a 906 00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:50,560 privilege and for many people. But if you work in a kind of job 907 00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:54,280 that allows that, then why not do more at home? 908 00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:56,640 Why not be equal parents? Do your load of the domestic 909 00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:59,800 care, that's where the joy comes from in the long term. 910 00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:02,360 Yes, it can be difficult on a day-to-day basis and it's bloody 911 00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:05,840 exhausting doing it all. But if you're a partnership and 912 00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:08,360 you work together as a team, it's incredible. 913 00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:10,920 And you both get the joy of working and earning, but you 914 00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:13,240 both also get the joy of having a really strong relationship 915 00:44:13,240 --> 00:44:15,000 with your children. And that's what I think life is 916 00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:17,040 all about for people who are parents and caregivers. 917 00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:20,600 I want to talk about some of the research from the Global 918 00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:24,640 Institute of Women's Leadership found that 44% of men think that 919 00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:28,240 gender equality has gone too far and that now men are being 920 00:44:28,240 --> 00:44:32,040 discriminated against. Does that resonate with the 921 00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:33,520 conversations you're having with boys? 922 00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:37,400 Do they feel like they are being discriminated against and that 923 00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:39,520 the gender quantity conversations gone too far one 924 00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:41,680 way? What I, what I like to start 925 00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:45,040 with with this question is also recognizing like the big chunk 926 00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:48,760 of men that didn't answer the question that way, You know, 927 00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:54,880 because what I see, what I see in, in the workshops that I run, 928 00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:58,120 and more importantly, because there's far more of them, the 929 00:44:58,120 --> 00:45:01,120 workshops that other people run and feedback is that so often 930 00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:05,280 there's a young person or an adult who's in that session who 931 00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:08,280 without having like done lots of our workshops or other people's 932 00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:12,440 workshops before, is really completely already wanting to 933 00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:15,760 push for more equity and is embracing, you know, all of the 934 00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:18,360 moves around gender equality. You can see the progress and 935 00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:20,280 loves it and wants that to be there more. 936 00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:23,560 So I think it's important to sort of say there's a big chunk 937 00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:27,400 of young people as well who are like that, who are interested in 938 00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:32,480 and want to engage like that. And then to understand the the 939 00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:35,880 large number who do feel like things have gone too far. 940 00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:39,440 I think we need to start looking actually like what is men's or 941 00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:42,640 what has what has been boys experiences who've grown up 942 00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:45,560 during this period and what have been the sorts of narratives 943 00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:48,040 they've heard about themselves or they've heard about the world 944 00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:52,400 around them. And if you start doing that 945 00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:55,560 work, then you can start to understand, well, what do they 946 00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:58,680 experience, but also what do they actually understand gender 947 00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:01,720 equality as being. And I'll just pick out one 948 00:46:01,720 --> 00:46:06,160 example, say the me too sort of movement or the everyone's 949 00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:08,960 invited movement might be a better one to think about for 950 00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:11,640 young people. And I think both of those things 951 00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:14,280 have been critically important, have made huge progress. 952 00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:17,800 It's vital that actually people, especially women who've been 953 00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:21,440 experiencing harassment or abuse or and all these sorts of things 954 00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:24,080 actually get a voice to express that. 955 00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:26,840 And then we hear that and we see it also as being like a systemic 956 00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:30,960 societal thing. But if you imagine probably how 957 00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:33,880 this was communicated to a 13 year old boy in an assembly. 958 00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:37,200 Yeah. A lot of that wasn't getting 959 00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:40,520 through that the message they might have heard would have been 960 00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:44,040 like, men are doing this, all men are doing this. 961 00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:47,800 This is a problem of toxic masculinity and the boys being 962 00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:49,640 broken. And that that might have been 963 00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:52,880 said in slightly more eloquent terms by the head. 964 00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:56,120 That might have been said to them in in more blunt terms by 965 00:46:56,240 --> 00:46:59,040 by some of the girls in their class or by other people. 966 00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:02,120 Or they've or they've been online into some of these forums 967 00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:04,840 that have been picking that out and saying, well, actually, 968 00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:06,560 we've got a feminist conspiracy here. 969 00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:10,240 And this is all about taking away power from men, giving it 970 00:47:10,240 --> 00:47:13,400 to women and turning men into the disposable others in our 971 00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:16,240 society. And I just think that that 972 00:47:16,240 --> 00:47:19,440 perception or that's that putting yourself into the boy's 973 00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:21,520 shoes and understanding, like, what are they seeing? 974 00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:22,680 What are they feeling? What are they thinking? 975 00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:25,960 What are they hearing as they go through those processes that 976 00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:28,560 we've already been talking about of trying to figure out who they 977 00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:29,960 are in the world. How you actually have a 978 00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:33,720 relationship with someone. You know, like to before you've 979 00:47:33,720 --> 00:47:38,040 even asked a girl for a number like ever in your whole life to 980 00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:40,440 hear that you've been lumped in with the people who are the 981 00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:43,240 sexual harasses the world. It's a pretty tough pill to 982 00:47:43,240 --> 00:47:46,400 swallow. Or if you're a 14 year old 983 00:47:46,680 --> 00:47:50,280 sitting in the back of class and to be told you are part of the 984 00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:53,720 powerful group in society. Again, it doesn't really feel 985 00:47:53,720 --> 00:47:54,920 real. Like there's not that many 986 00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:58,360 people who who listen to you and give you things when you ask for 987 00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:01,440 them. So that that sort of nuanced 988 00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:04,040 conversation is quite a difficult one that we have to 989 00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:05,640 do. But we can't shy away from 990 00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:08,920 either reality, that experience that they have, nor the reality 991 00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:12,720 that there continues to be power structures in our society that 992 00:48:12,720 --> 00:48:16,880 are oppressing, discriminating and allowing harassment of of 993 00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:18,920 women and girls. So how can we address those 994 00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:21,440 power structures and those social systems and those 995 00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:25,360 cultural norms that reinforce them, but also give boys that 996 00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:28,320 hope and that understanding, that ability to take 997 00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:31,600 responsibility for themselves and look after themselves. 998 00:48:32,720 --> 00:48:35,720 And even to see that a lot of the changes we're talking about 999 00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:38,000 are going to be really positive for them as well. 1000 00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:42,080 It's a it's a nuanced thing. Let alone to get them to think 1001 00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:43,240 about. Yeah, we described that 1002 00:48:43,240 --> 00:48:49,160 brilliantly. You mentioned kind of getting a 1003 00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:50,640 girl's number for the first time. 1004 00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:53,160 We always, we all remember that going out, seeing a girl and 1005 00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:55,120 approaching her, being really nervous. 1006 00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:57,240 But you know, your mate's looking a new one and she you 1007 00:48:57,240 --> 00:48:59,240 get rejected, but you get over it and you do it again. 1008 00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:01,360 So I bring about trauma here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1009 00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:04,200 I'm married. That was years ago. 1010 00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:06,320 Why? Why did she do that? 1011 00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:08,480 Deep breath. What kind of conversations are 1012 00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:12,440 you having with young people, young boys, about sex and 1013 00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:15,280 relationships? In our schools program, we run a 1014 00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:18,760 free module program, so the first session is around gender 1015 00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:21,760 stereotypes and gender norms. And that's because we want to 1016 00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:24,920 surface like we want to the, the entry point to this conversation 1017 00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:26,800 has to be for the boys. This is about you. 1018 00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:30,000 Like it's not about anything else other than you, who you 1019 00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:33,240 are, how you feel, who's putting pressure on you, and what 1020 00:49:33,240 --> 00:49:34,320 they're putting pressure on you to do. 1021 00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:35,760 So they unpick all of that stuff. 1022 00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:39,320 They unpack all of the different bits of it and obviously sex and 1023 00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:42,720 sexuality comes up in that first session, but we put it on ice. 1024 00:49:42,720 --> 00:49:45,320 And then we come back in the second session and we talk to 1025 00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:47,800 them about relationships, we talk to them about sex and we 1026 00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:51,720 talk to them about sexuality. And, and in that session, I 1027 00:49:51,720 --> 00:49:54,920 think the, the real learning pathways are like, firstly, we 1028 00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:57,200 start with this idea of like healthy relationships. 1029 00:49:57,200 --> 00:49:59,760 What are the, the good components of a relationship? 1030 00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:01,280 What are the things that are like fundamental for a 1031 00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:04,120 relationship to work well? And, and so the boys will like 1032 00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:06,600 explore some of those things and then we'll compare and contrast 1033 00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:09,560 it with the man box that we made in the last session and ask 1034 00:50:09,560 --> 00:50:11,800 them, are there any things in this box that make any of these 1035 00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:13,600 things difficult? So are there any things about 1036 00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:17,360 what society says men are meant to be that makes being trusting 1037 00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:20,840 in a relationship or being honest or being open or caring 1038 00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:23,160 or loving or fun or any of those things? 1039 00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:25,440 Does it make it difficult, more difficult as a guy? 1040 00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:29,280 And, and so we unpack that conversation and then we dive 1041 00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:31,320 into like a bit of an exploration. 1042 00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:34,880 And it's very like non in the, in these workshops, we like ask 1043 00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:37,840 them loads of questions about sexuality. 1044 00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:39,920 We ask them loads of questions about like whether they would 1045 00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:42,880 treat their friends differently if they were gay or what these 1046 00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:46,000 expectations are around how boys are supposed to carry themselves 1047 00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:50,640 and kind of land this space where the conversation really 1048 00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:53,640 fundamentally becomes about consent and about whether they 1049 00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:57,560 understand what consent is and how that works for them in their 1050 00:50:57,560 --> 00:50:59,360 lives. So first of all, do they feel 1051 00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:01,240 like consent is something that exists for them? 1052 00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:05,280 Do they feel like it's like a thing that they get to access 1053 00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:07,600 and they get to say no when they feel uncomfortable? 1054 00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:09,640 What are the things about being a man that means that you might 1055 00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:11,040 not do that if you feel that way? 1056 00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:13,880 Like should men be vulnerable? Should men feel uncomfortable? 1057 00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:16,120 What are the societal expectations around sex? 1058 00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:18,880 And then we talk about in the context of other people and 1059 00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:21,600 maybe where we might not understand that, where we might 1060 00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:24,360 be getting it wrong, we like, look at the FRYERS acronym. 1061 00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:27,440 So consent being something that's freely given, being 1062 00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:30,320 something that's reversible, being something that's specific, 1063 00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:36,400 informed, he is explicit and or no enthusiastic, which is also 1064 00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:38,120 super important. So I always give the example of 1065 00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:40,360 like if you ask someone if they want to have sex and they're 1066 00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:43,120 like, yeah, I could have some sex, then they probably don't 1067 00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:44,720 really want to have sex. Whereas if they RIP their 1068 00:51:44,720 --> 00:51:46,600 underwear off and are waving it around, they're like, I've been 1069 00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:49,080 waiting for this for the last four years, then you know, they 1070 00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:51,800 want to have sex, right? But like informing them of, of 1071 00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:54,920 these kinds of things and building frameworks where they 1072 00:51:54,920 --> 00:51:58,240 can understand what healthy relationships are supposed to 1073 00:51:58,240 --> 00:52:00,680 look like. And then how that translates 1074 00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:03,760 into sex, sex, and then therefore what sex could or 1075 00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:06,320 should look like. And also, I think raising 1076 00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:09,160 awareness around porn, because we know that lots of young 1077 00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:13,200 people are accessing porn and that I'm not like a anti porn 1078 00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:15,280 person. Like I, I consider myself to be 1079 00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:19,320 sex positive, but I think that porn wasn't made for informing 1080 00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:21,640 children about sex, right? It was made for adult 1081 00:52:21,640 --> 00:52:23,760 entertainment. And so giving them that the 1082 00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:27,120 critical skills to like analyse that material that they are 1083 00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:29,920 accessing and think about whether it's made for them or 1084 00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:32,440 what they might be learning from that that's not real or not 1085 00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:34,760 accurate. And so the conversations like go 1086 00:52:34,760 --> 00:52:36,120 in loads of different directions. 1087 00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:39,400 You can never really predict specifically with module 2, like 1088 00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:41,400 what's going to come up or what's going to come out in 1089 00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:44,000 those sessions. But I think one of the things 1090 00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:46,560 that you always find is that boys really want to talk about 1091 00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:48,600 relationships and they really want to talk about sex. 1092 00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:50,040 They really want to understand it. 1093 00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:51,640 They're desperate to get it right. 1094 00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:54,640 They want it to be good. And then the the prevailing 1095 00:52:54,640 --> 00:52:57,680 narrative that they're receiving from the outside world is one of 1096 00:52:57,680 --> 00:53:01,120 like it being good looks a very specific way and you play one 1097 00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:03,400 role in that. So you have to be the person 1098 00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:05,520 that knows everything already. You have to be dominant. 1099 00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:08,400 You have to take charge. Women want men who are in 1100 00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:10,400 control. Women want men who are leaders. 1101 00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:13,960 And so it's like a lot of work to destabilize those kinds of 1102 00:53:13,960 --> 00:53:17,280 ideas and allow them to like reimagine what that can look 1103 00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:20,160 like for themselves and to hold each other to new standards. 1104 00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:22,920 You know, like to to call each other out and call each other in 1105 00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:27,040 to lack a higher form of having positive relationships with 1106 00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:29,080 other people. So I think there's a lot of work 1107 00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:31,720 that goes into it and there's a lot of conversation. 1108 00:53:31,720 --> 00:53:34,200 There's a lot of like destabilizing heteronormativity, 1109 00:53:34,240 --> 00:53:37,560 intimacy between boys being like, OK and being a normal 1110 00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:39,000 thing that doesn't have to be sexual. 1111 00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:42,480 But I think in doing that, you also destabilize this idea that, 1112 00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:45,800 like relationships are purely a sexual thing and like, it's just 1113 00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:47,880 transactional. And so there are so many, like 1114 00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:51,320 moving pieces, but we try to get them in a space where they've 1115 00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:53,640 already had the opportunity to like do a bit of exploration. 1116 00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:56,560 They feel safe, they feel comfortable, they feel like they 1117 00:53:56,560 --> 00:53:59,080 can say what they really think. They can ask any questions that 1118 00:53:59,080 --> 00:54:00,920 they have. And then we have like a very 1119 00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:04,440 skilled team of facilitators who are in there trying to like walk 1120 00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:06,840 them through and navigate them through that conversation. 1121 00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:08,360 Amazing. And you've inspired me to be 1122 00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:11,280 more enthusiastic. Next time in the bedroom before 1123 00:54:11,280 --> 00:54:14,320 I go in. Come on, you took one thing from 1124 00:54:14,320 --> 00:54:15,960 this podcast. Be enthusiastic. 1125 00:54:17,840 --> 00:54:20,120 So to, to end, you know, we have a lot of parents that listen to 1126 00:54:20,120 --> 00:54:24,080 this podcast and we like to kind of try to give some maybe advice 1127 00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:26,680 is the wrong word, but you know, guidance and just ideas about 1128 00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:29,680 what they can do. They have boys, many of them, 1129 00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:32,400 many of them are a bit worried about maybe their, their boys 1130 00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:34,360 and how they're growing up and the state of the world. 1131 00:54:35,160 --> 00:54:38,680 So what would you say to parents listening who have sons or what 1132 00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:41,920 would you say to them in regards to how they can help their their 1133 00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:46,440 sons to grow up into kind of happy, healthy boys who aren't 1134 00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:48,440 causing harm to themselves or other people? 1135 00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:51,040 Yeah. And maybe I'll, I'll kick us 1136 00:54:51,040 --> 00:54:53,280 off. And I think first thing is if 1137 00:54:53,280 --> 00:54:56,920 you're listening to this, you are in the right place. 1138 00:54:56,920 --> 00:54:59,520 And it means that you are engaged in the right 1139 00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:02,920 conversations and you're thinking actively about how you 1140 00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:06,080 can do a good job or a better job of raising your boys. 1141 00:55:06,080 --> 00:55:09,560 And I think that's that is the baseline for like any of this 1142 00:55:09,560 --> 00:55:11,800 kind of stuff. Is that just people's will to 1143 00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:15,520 engage in these conversations? So I think if you're listening 1144 00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:18,480 and you're worried or you're you're scared for a young 1145 00:55:18,480 --> 00:55:20,640 person, you've watched adolescences freak you out, 1146 00:55:20,760 --> 00:55:22,440 you're in the right place, you're listening to the right 1147 00:55:22,440 --> 00:55:25,200 stuff. I would say that the main thing 1148 00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:27,800 like there's lots of like tips and tricks and techniques. 1149 00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:30,080 And I think there's like we have conversations with our 1150 00:55:30,080 --> 00:55:32,440 facilitators about non patriarchal methods of 1151 00:55:32,440 --> 00:55:35,760 communication and how we destabilize those norms of like 1152 00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:37,920 punitive justice in a classroom environment. 1153 00:55:37,920 --> 00:55:40,720 Or how we can like have conversations with boys where 1154 00:55:40,720 --> 00:55:43,080 they're really explorative and they're honest and they're, 1155 00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:46,080 they're really having transformational impact. 1156 00:55:46,080 --> 00:55:49,320 But I think the core of it is like keeping the channels of 1157 00:55:49,320 --> 00:55:52,160 communication open. And I think as long as you are 1158 00:55:52,160 --> 00:55:55,040 able to keep those channels of communication open, sometimes 1159 00:55:55,040 --> 00:55:57,800 it's got to be by force. Sometimes it's got to be like on 1160 00:55:57,800 --> 00:56:00,000 a Tuesday night. We in it together as a family. 1161 00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:03,000 We have conversation and I know you hate it, but that's what we 1162 00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:05,720 do as a family. Or it might be like there are 1163 00:56:05,720 --> 00:56:08,360 loads of parents who are worried about social media usage. 1164 00:56:08,760 --> 00:56:11,200 One of the best tips that I've heard is like sitting down with 1165 00:56:11,200 --> 00:56:15,120 your young person and having an hour 1 evening in the week where 1166 00:56:15,120 --> 00:56:17,520 you show them your social media and they show you theirs. 1167 00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:20,520 And you just watch it together and you have conversations about 1168 00:56:20,520 --> 00:56:22,360 like some of the things that are funny and some of the things 1169 00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:24,440 that are interesting and some of the things that made you think, 1170 00:56:24,920 --> 00:56:27,120 but also some of the things that are maybe a bit weird or make 1171 00:56:27,120 --> 00:56:29,680 you a bit uncomfortable. And they're not conversations 1172 00:56:29,680 --> 00:56:32,480 where you're policing behaviour, but they're conversations where 1173 00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:36,200 you're building that ability to think critically and to analyse, 1174 00:56:36,200 --> 00:56:38,400 like information that they're seeing online. 1175 00:56:39,080 --> 00:56:41,280 But I think the main thing is them just knowing that you're 1176 00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:43,800 the person that they can come to and as long as you've got that 1177 00:56:43,800 --> 00:56:46,360 in place, which is not an easy thing to do. 1178 00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:48,600 And I think for lots of parents, that's going to require a lot of 1179 00:56:48,600 --> 00:56:50,760 work. But I think that that's the core 1180 00:56:50,760 --> 00:56:52,200 of it. And everything else is like 1181 00:56:52,200 --> 00:56:54,360 supplementary. Like there are some books that 1182 00:56:54,360 --> 00:56:57,000 you could probably recommend and to your kids, there are some Ted 1183 00:56:57,000 --> 00:56:59,600 talks or like videos or documentaries that you can show 1184 00:56:59,600 --> 00:57:01,600 them. But really the core of it is 1185 00:57:01,600 --> 00:57:04,000 like that feedback loop of conversation. 1186 00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:06,840 You genuinely being interested in their internal world and 1187 00:57:06,840 --> 00:57:09,800 what's going on for them and not trying to police their behaviour 1188 00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:13,280 because policing behaviour only pushes it into the shadows where 1189 00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:15,600 you can't see what it is and you have no idea about it. 1190 00:57:16,080 --> 00:57:18,880 And I think when you do come to those points of like the need to 1191 00:57:18,880 --> 00:57:22,000 challenge, another thing that's really valuable is like being 1192 00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:25,400 able to send yourself, like regulate yourself and then send 1193 00:57:25,400 --> 00:57:28,040 yourself in your own emotions and the impact something's 1194 00:57:28,040 --> 00:57:31,480 having on you as the like means for conversation rather than 1195 00:57:31,480 --> 00:57:34,200 just a moral conversation about what they should or shouldn't be 1196 00:57:34,200 --> 00:57:36,360 doing. So if you see a video that makes 1197 00:57:36,360 --> 00:57:39,200 you feel uncomfortable, you see they're liking something or you 1198 00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:41,240 look at you check their WhatsApp and they're having a bad 1199 00:57:41,240 --> 00:57:43,280 conversation in the, the WhatsApp group with their 1200 00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:45,080 friends to be like, oh, I saw that. 1201 00:57:45,160 --> 00:57:47,720 And it, it made me feel a bit uncomfortable or like, I like, 1202 00:57:47,720 --> 00:57:49,680 I, I'm not sure how I feel about it. 1203 00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:52,960 Like I, I didn't expect to, to come across that or whatever, 1204 00:57:53,160 --> 00:57:55,440 But like, rather than that conversation being like, I'm so 1205 00:57:55,440 --> 00:57:57,280 disappointed in you. And I can't believe that you've 1206 00:57:57,280 --> 00:57:59,760 done that for the conversation to just be a bit of an 1207 00:57:59,760 --> 00:58:02,560 exploration of like what the impact of that stuff is on the 1208 00:58:02,560 --> 00:58:04,480 people around you and the people that you care about. 1209 00:58:04,520 --> 00:58:07,200 And, and maybe how they can start to like change some of 1210 00:58:07,200 --> 00:58:10,840 those behaviors or what they could try in order to explore 1211 00:58:10,840 --> 00:58:12,680 it. And Movember also came out with 1212 00:58:12,680 --> 00:58:15,280 a really good resource in collaboration with us for 1213 00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:18,320 parents is like a page long guide of it follows like a a 1214 00:58:18,920 --> 00:58:23,160 framework called Alec, which is about asking questions, actively 1215 00:58:23,160 --> 00:58:27,280 listening, encouraging them to like make changes and then 1216 00:58:27,280 --> 00:58:29,080 checking in with what actions they've taken. 1217 00:58:29,080 --> 00:58:31,680 So a really easy framework to follow and for parents. 1218 00:58:31,680 --> 00:58:33,880 But Dan, I'm sure you've got some some other advice. 1219 00:58:34,640 --> 00:58:35,960 And that was pretty fantastic advice. 1220 00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:38,880 It was solid. Wasn't it great? 1221 00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:42,080 Job for me, maybe emphasizing some of Ben's messages here, 1222 00:58:42,080 --> 00:58:45,360 like as a, as a parent, as a carer, as anyone, and you're not 1223 00:58:45,360 --> 00:58:47,440 going to have all the answers, like you're not going to be the 1224 00:58:47,440 --> 00:58:50,480 expert on everything that comes up in young people's lives. 1225 00:58:50,880 --> 00:58:54,560 And I, I think it's just better to be focusing on trying to 1226 00:58:54,560 --> 00:58:57,760 build that trusting relationship, that open line of 1227 00:58:57,760 --> 00:59:01,280 communication and, and then being curious about actually 1228 00:59:01,280 --> 00:59:02,880 what they understand about things. 1229 00:59:03,040 --> 00:59:05,360 I mean, I know a lot of people's reaction, for example, to 1230 00:59:05,360 --> 00:59:08,320 adolescence was, Oh my God, there's this whole universe that 1231 00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:10,520 I didn't understand there of secret emoji messages and 1232 00:59:10,520 --> 00:59:13,160 whatever else. What the hearts mean, Yeah. 1233 00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:20,040 And I think that the danger with that sort of reaction is when we 1234 00:59:20,040 --> 00:59:23,360 speak to young people, quite a few of them have absolutely no 1235 00:59:23,360 --> 00:59:26,280 idea about those messages. Either they're having very 1236 00:59:26,280 --> 00:59:30,240 different conversations online, or they maybe get it, but then 1237 00:59:30,240 --> 00:59:32,200 actually in a completely different group, those things 1238 00:59:32,200 --> 00:59:33,640 mean something very different to them. 1239 00:59:34,000 --> 00:59:38,760 So if you try to be an expert about young people with your 1240 00:59:38,760 --> 00:59:42,240 young person, you're going to fail because they're one person 1241 00:59:42,240 --> 00:59:45,640 and they're they're situated in all these different microcosms 1242 00:59:45,640 --> 00:59:48,080 of culture and friendship groups and everything else. 1243 00:59:48,440 --> 00:59:51,400 It's much better to just like try to be building that 1244 00:59:51,400 --> 00:59:55,320 relationship with that young person and have them as being, 1245 00:59:55,320 --> 00:59:58,120 you know, they can come and bounce their ideas off you or 1246 00:59:58,280 --> 01:00:01,200 check in or just know that there's going to be that dinner 1247 01:00:01,200 --> 01:00:03,080 on Tuesday where they can sit quietly. 1248 01:00:03,080 --> 01:00:05,000 That's what they have to do. Yeah, awkward. 1249 01:00:05,600 --> 01:00:07,920 Yeah, families, their family is going to be there. 1250 01:00:08,000 --> 01:00:10,240 Even if it's not what they want to do, their family is going to 1251 01:00:10,240 --> 01:00:12,600 be there. And I think that can be like a 1252 01:00:12,600 --> 01:00:15,920 really amazing gift that you can set up for for a young person 1253 01:00:15,920 --> 01:00:18,520 that will hold them in in good stead for the rest of their 1254 01:00:18,520 --> 01:00:21,440 life. If you're a parent and you would 1255 01:00:21,440 --> 01:00:25,320 like Beyond Equality to come into the school that your kids 1256 01:00:25,560 --> 01:00:27,760 go to, what's the crack? How does that work? 1257 01:00:29,080 --> 01:00:32,160 We'd love to be there. You can send us an e-mail or I 1258 01:00:32,160 --> 01:00:35,720 guess the best kind of route is to encourage the school to ask 1259 01:00:35,720 --> 01:00:38,480 them what they're doing about masculinity education, to ask 1260 01:00:38,480 --> 01:00:40,680 them what conversations they're currently having with the boys, 1261 01:00:40,720 --> 01:00:43,120 and to suggest that you've come across an organization that 1262 01:00:43,120 --> 01:00:46,120 might be really helpful or runs these workshops that are really 1263 01:00:46,120 --> 01:00:49,640 good that you'd recommend. And you can also contact us 1264 01:00:49,640 --> 01:00:51,480 directly. You can reach out to us. 1265 01:00:51,520 --> 01:00:54,800 You'll find emails on the website for the right people in 1266 01:00:54,800 --> 01:00:57,920 the right departments, but anything on beyondequality.org, 1267 01:00:58,600 --> 01:01:00,960 have a look and maybe forward like we've got schools 1268 01:01:00,960 --> 01:01:02,480 brochures. We've got different brochures 1269 01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:04,480 for different products. So you can forward some of that 1270 01:01:04,480 --> 01:01:06,560 stuff to the school that your your kids are at. 1271 01:01:06,560 --> 01:01:09,440 Also anything else? Right. 1272 01:01:09,440 --> 01:01:12,480 I mean, socials work as well. Yeah, we'll, we'll pick, we'll 1273 01:01:12,480 --> 01:01:14,760 pick it up and we can provide you with something to pass on 1274 01:01:14,760 --> 01:01:18,600 the school. Amazing, amazing. 1275 01:01:18,600 --> 01:01:21,400 And of course, we'll link all the all the contact details in 1276 01:01:21,400 --> 01:01:23,360 the show notes. This has been incredible. 1277 01:01:23,480 --> 01:01:25,480 One of my favourites. I was looking forward to it. 1278 01:01:25,480 --> 01:01:27,640 I think I enjoyed it. It was so good. 1279 01:01:27,640 --> 01:01:29,480 You're I love the work that you're both doing. 1280 01:01:29,480 --> 01:01:32,240 I have for many years. So just massive thank you for 1281 01:01:32,240 --> 01:01:36,120 staying on a bit longer, eating into your lunchtime and sharing 1282 01:01:36,120 --> 01:01:39,360 your wisdom with us. So thank you so much, Ben and 1283 01:01:39,360 --> 01:01:41,800 Dan, love the work you're doing. Take care. 1284 01:01:41,800 --> 01:01:42,960 We'll have you back soon, hopefully. 1285 01:01:42,960 --> 01:01:44,240 Take care. See you soon, you guys. 1286 01:01:44,720 --> 01:01:58,680 Thank you. Mother Kind podcast explores how 1287 01:01:58,680 --> 01:02:02,440 to feel happier, more confident and empowered in your 1288 01:02:02,440 --> 01:02:06,600 motherhood, even in our world of pressure judgement in 1289 01:02:06,600 --> 01:02:09,120 comparison. I'm your host, Zoe Blaski, and 1290 01:02:09,120 --> 01:02:12,280 every week I speak to an incredible expert to share 1291 01:02:12,280 --> 01:02:16,160 actionable steps and powerful lessons to living your life as a 1292 01:02:16,160 --> 01:02:20,120 mother with more joy and unapologetic confidence. 1293 01:02:20,360 --> 01:02:23,560 Listen wherever you get your podcasts, just search Mother 1294 01:02:23,680 --> 01:02:23,920 Kind.