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This episode is supported by 
Movember, the leading charity 

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changing the face of men's 
health. 

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Hello and welcome to To Be a Boy
with Me, Joey Brilly. 

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I'm me, Elliot Ray. 
Maeve Park has been written in 

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the field of cantering violent 
extremism for five years, 

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focusing on both the far right 
and the manosphere. 

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She works with schools, 
teachers, law enforcement and 

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governments to support efforts 
to prevent radicalisation. 

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She is the author of Black Held,
which examines disillusionment, 

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modernity and online ideology, 
blending memoir, social 

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commentary and philosophical 
reflection. 

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Her work explored by individuals
are drawn to online subcultures 

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such as the incel movement and 
what these spaces reveal about 

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alienation and contemporary 
society. 

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Maeve, welcome to the podcast. 
Hi, thanks for having me. 

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It's great to be here. 
We're so thrilled you can join 

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us. 
For someone who's never come 

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across the term before, what 
does that pill actually mean? 

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Taking on some new meanings in 
the past year, but it originally

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was the name of the ideology 
that in cells kind of adhere to 

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or believed in. 
It comes from the original red 

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pill. 
If some people may know that is 

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associated with Andrew Tate, 
kind of like an anti feminist 

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worldview that you wouldn't have
too much power in society that 

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men need to reclaim their power 
back. 

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That kind of like liberalism and
all these kind of new kind of 

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woke inverted commas kind of 
ideologies have taken over and 

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that it's time that we kind of 
revert back to rigid norms of 

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the 1950s. 
So that was the red pill and 

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that kind of came first in about
2010. 

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And then the insults kind of 
created a more nihilistic 

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version of that saying, well, 
women have too much power. 

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Society is going to the dogs. 
It's not how it used to be. 

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It's too much modernity, too 
much tech, too much social 

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media, but there's nothing you 
can do about it. 

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And this is kind of our way of 
like seeking revenge. 

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So like in a, in a way, the red 
pill kind of teaches men like 

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tips and tricks about how to 
kind of scam the system, kind of

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like what Andrew Tate used to do
where you can trick a woman into

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that. 
You can kind of scam your way 

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into making money. 
You can like, you know, lie and 

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cheat your way to the top and 
you can make it. 

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The black pill is basically the 
nihilistic version of everything

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is wrong. 
But for some men, there's 

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nothing you can do. 
There's no tricks that you can 

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use. 
There's no tips or kind of scams

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If you're too ugly, in their 
minds, that's how they put it 

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for society. 
You're never going to be able to

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make it as a man or find a woman
or kind of do anything of note. 

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So you have only limited options
available to you. 

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And so it's the nihilistic 
version of the kind of more 

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popularly known Andrew Tate red 
pill ideology. 

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But yeah, so now it's just kind 
of a code word for nihilistic. 

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Kids use it all the time as 
saying like I'm so black pilled 

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on new movies and black pilled 
on politics and black pilled on 

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climate change. 
And it's kind of like a 

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shorthand for saying like I'm 
done, I'm nihilistic. 

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I have no hope for. 
So it's taken directly from in 

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solo lingo, but the original 
idea was directly about insole 

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associate ideology and 
associated with it. 

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Wow, so you said that the that 
people who are in the black pill

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movement believe they only have 
limited access to women. 

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It's like, you know what you 
were saying, They have limited 

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methods for accessing women. 
What do you mean by that? 

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Well, I suppose like I don't 
like the term access too much, 

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but I do understand like the 
idea of attraction and it is, it

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is about women, but it's also 
about men. 

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So it's actually about society. 
It's misanthropic. 

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So it's basically saying that 
some men, some young guys are, 

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this is how they would put it, 
not me, are too ugly or too kind

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of like have too many issues 
such as being autistic or 

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schizophrenic or whatever it 
might be to fit into society and

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to fit into the gender roles of 
masculinity. 

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So that they'll never be taken 
seriously, never be invited to 

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the party, and also they'll 
never attract women. 

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And that the only thing that 
matters in life is kind of 

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fitting in and having 
relationship. 

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And by the way, in this kind of 
philosophy, there is kind of 

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like seeds of truth. 
But obviously like, you know, 

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it's, there's an extreme version
of that. 

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So they would say if you can't 
get into society, if you can't 

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get into a relationship, what's 
the point? 

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There is none. 
So it's very, very fatalistic. 

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And it's keeping in mind these 
are mostly really young people. 

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They're not people in their 50s 
and 60s who've gone through life

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and have decided this at the 
end. 

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These are like 16 to 25 kind of 
in that kind of portion of life 

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where things are kind of up in 
the air, but you're still very 

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new. 
And this is kind of the 

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fatalistic attitude that they've
kind of like taken on. 

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Wow. 
I mean, that is seriously 

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depressing. 
Yeah. 

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Is it venerant to violence then?
Does it vary from fatalism into 

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violence against women? 
Yeah, that's a big question and 

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it has a lot of answers because 
yes is a shorthand and then like

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no is more complicated. 
So yes, there have been violence

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stemming from the incel ideology
or the incel kind of like 

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communities. 
And some of the violence will 

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include assaults all the way up 
to mass homicide. 

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One of the most famous kind of 
it's old now, but it's still one

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of the most famous attacks that 
is still kind of like talked 

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about in the until communities. 
It's a 2014 Island Vista, CA 

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shooting by a young man called 
Elliot Rodger. 

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Elliot Rodger is kind of like 
kind of glorified. 

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This is kind of like hero 
figure, folk hero figure of the 

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kind of misunderstood lost men. 
He was just a young guy, about 

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21, and he basically went on a 
rampage around his campus. 

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He was trying to kill as many 
women as he could kill as many 

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girls who were in the 
sororities, but he actually 

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failed at getting into the 
sorority that he wanted to get 

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into. 
So he just went on a kind of 

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shooting spree around the town. 
And in that attack, he killed 

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both men and women. 
In fact, he killed more men. 

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He even killed his own roommates
through a knife attack. 

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Before he did that, all of his 
roommates were men. 

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So in cell violence has actually
had a pretty like egalitarian in

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a weird way, like victims. 
Like in terms of like, there 

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have been men and there have 
been women, there have been 

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young and there have been old. 
So yes, the main targets are 

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women first, but they absolutely
do not like men because men are 

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also seen as their enemy, is 
seen as like kind of the 

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jealousy component. 
All these other guys out here, 

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they get what I want because 
he's 6 foot and on the football 

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team. 
And it's a very kind of like 

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almost 1980s outlook on kind of 
social hierarchies among young 

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people. 
There's the jocks and 

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cheerleaders and the kind of 
losers and the stoners and the 

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hippies. 
They see the world as saying, 

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well, there are these men who 
get everything for no reason. 

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They're stupid, they're 
horrible, they're abusive, and 

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they get the women just because 
they look pretty. 

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And again, there's elements of 
like genuine kind of resentment 

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that comes from like seeds of 
truth and very small seeds of 

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truth, but seeds of truth 
nonetheless. 

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Beauty being something that 
people seek is true. 

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I mean, we'll go into that in a 
moment. 

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I, I can go off in a tangent, 
but in terms of not everything 

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they're saying is delusional. 
It's just taken to the absolute 

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extremes. 
And so when it comes to 

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violence, the violence can be 
like a mass attack, kind of just

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a revenge on society. 
It could also be violence in the

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home as well, stalking, 
harassment, intimidation online 

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as well. 
So there's been an array of 

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different forms of violence, but
most in cells will never commit 

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an attack. 
Most in cells are much more on 

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the depressive, nihilistic Rd. 
than the angry, vengeful road. 

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And they were the insults that I
and ended up interviewing most 

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for the book. 
Yeah. 

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What would you say is the 
appeal? 

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Because with the red pill, you 
can kind of see the appeal 

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because at least it's trying to 
give those boys some direction. 

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It might be directionless and 
and not great, really bad for 

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them, but you can kind of see 
how a young person would be 

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motivated to have that mindset 
with with the black people. 

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What you're explaining, I can't 
see how it's very motivational, 

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inspirational for anybody. 
Is it more just a case of we 

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belong somewhere? 
There's people like me who are 

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in the same boat and I've got a 
community. 

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Is that just kind of what it is 
in terms of the motivation? 

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Absolutely. 
It's a it's a, it's kind of 

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finding people like you who kind
of like you can finally like, as

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I say, they do feel very 
outcasted. 

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Most of the guys in these groups
do not have friends. 

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It's not a case of just like, 
you know, 16 year old boys who 

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have a gang of friends and 
haven't had a girlfriend yet and

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go online and find these 
communities. 

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These are boys who never really 
got their best friend and and 

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people don't really kind of gel 
with them. 

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So they're kind of like on their
own a lot in school. 

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They don't have birthday 
parties. 

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They're not invited to the 
birthday parties. 

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They haven't had like that kind 
of social life that many of us 

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have had. 
And, and many of us understand 

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the importance of having at that
age group going into university.

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Then it gets even worse. 
They're really on their own. 

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They're at home all the time. 
They're on their computer. 

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And it's just that kind of 
isolation, real depression. 

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And that's kind of why they 
found their first group of 

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friends in these communities 
because suddenly everyone's like

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them, but they're all kind of 
banded around the resentment of 

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being like them. 
Um, so it's an unfortunate catch

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22 where the first group of 
mates you have are also kind of 

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like all very miserable and 
toxic and kind of sad and 

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pushing each other down because 
there's this element in the 

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group where there's what I call 
like an intellectual 

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superiority. 
So they gain a sense of power 

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and control through 
understanding their worldview 

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as, as true, right. 
So yeah, it's it's it's bad is 

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pretty bleak. 
Everything's against me. 

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But at least I am smart enough 
to know that all you idiots out 

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here are sheep working for the 
system, doing the day-to-day and

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all At the end of the day, all 
that matters is how you look and

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how people see you. 
So there is this element of 

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figuring it out, the secret 
truth, and that's really 

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alluring. 
That's like being in a secret 

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cult. 
So that that is part of being in

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it too. 
So there's a few reasons why 

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they might be in it, but they're
not gaining, I suppose, like 

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that inspiration you mentioned. 
But also we have to be really 

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careful young people. 
They're not always trying to be 

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like, you know, finding their 
future. 

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Like, I mean, many of us when we
were 19, we just like going out 

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to, you know, the bar and 
drinking pints with our friends 

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and think about the future, 
trying to get like, you know, 

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the big bucks and the CEOs, like
we were in a corporate, 

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corporate work yet. 
So they're kind of just wasting 

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responding time instead of going
out, you know, side with other 

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people on these forums, caring 
and absorb being more misery 

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about their situation. 
Yeah. 

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Yeah, when I was at school, 
there was definitely like what 

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you're describing there. 
There were kids in my class who 

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you would describe as 
potentially in that in that 

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scenario. 
But you know, I'm quite old now.

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So they didn't have social media
and they didn't have a way of 

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connecting with other people. 
So I guess in a in a way that 

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this, the violence we're 
describing is obviously 

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terrible, but they're meeting 
each other and finding that 

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community. 
Is there any like positive in 

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that in regards to at least they
can speak to someone? 

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Maybe the conversations aren't 
great, but is that better than 

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nothing? 
Yeah, I've spoken to people 

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who've worked in Prevent, which 
is the counterterrorism strategy

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of the UK. 
It's basically a pre criminal 

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space where people can refer 
people they're a little worried 

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about, especially young people 
to go and get that early 

226
00:12:08,680 --> 00:12:11,200
intervention. 
And some Prevent case workers 

227
00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:14,200
have said to me that when they 
work on a young insult case, a 

228
00:12:14,240 --> 00:12:18,200
teenager, they'll also often 
say, look like this is sometimes

229
00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:21,080
the difference between me 
staying alive or not. 

230
00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:23,120
Like finally I could share my 
feelings. 

231
00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:26,160
I was really on the edge there. 
Something bad really this is 

232
00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:28,920
going to happen to me and this 
is kind of what gave me a little

233
00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:32,360
bit of hang on to a little bit 
of what to do and like waking up

234
00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:34,560
every day getting a message from
someone. 

235
00:12:34,560 --> 00:12:38,240
These small little things we 
take for granted they were 

236
00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:42,560
getting for the first time. 
And that as a 1617 year old is a

237
00:12:42,560 --> 00:12:45,840
big thing. 
So yes, it does kind of create 

238
00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:48,760
this like, OK, finally have 
something to to do with my life,

239
00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:53,600
but of course it makes it worse.
The unfortunate thing is the 

240
00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:55,920
misery and the resentment is 
what sticks the communities 

241
00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:58,960
together. 
So while they do have worms on 

242
00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:01,800
when they talk about anime or 
video games, they were like 

243
00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:04,600
parts of the forum where they do
discuss like their shared 

244
00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:09,120
activities, which is cool. 
They have to also trying it into

245
00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:13,040
intertwine it into kind of the 
general misanthropy, misogyny, 

246
00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:15,120
nihilism, because that's the 
glue. 

247
00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:19,080
And if one of them starts 
getting a bit happy, that's a 

248
00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:23,200
problem kind of ruining the 
ruining the vibe of the group. 

249
00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:25,520
Like you can't, we're not happy 
here. 

250
00:13:25,560 --> 00:13:29,280
We're miserable here. 
That's law of the group. 

251
00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:33,200
That's the rules. 
So yeah, it's like Catch 22, 

252
00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:36,280
Yeah. 
Police each of this behaviour 

253
00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:41,200
very carefully to make sure that
they're all miserable and many 

254
00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:46,160
women, and you're probably sick 
of talking about adolescence, 

255
00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:51,320
but for many parents in 
particular, that was their first

256
00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:56,360
instruction to the manosphere 
and to incel culture. 

257
00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:00,800
Do you think adolescents got it 
right? 

258
00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:04,360
Do you think the way that they 
portrayed the manosphere and 

259
00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:07,520
culture was spot on? 
Or do you think they they got 

260
00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:10,400
things wrong? 
Yeah, well, they didn't actually

261
00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:12,360
portray the menosphere because 
that's not what they wanted to 

262
00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:14,480
do. 
But they did exactly what they 

263
00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:17,440
wanted to do. 
But not many people understood 

264
00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:20,920
it, and they did it really well.
The little boy is not an insult.

265
00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:23,360
They said that through the TV 
show. 

266
00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:27,040
His resentment came from being 
called an insult. 

267
00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:32,080
He was not that he was in these 
groups, but that someone said he

268
00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:34,600
looks like the type who would be
in that group. 

269
00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:37,960
Yeah, that's like back in the 
day, being called a, you know, 

270
00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:41,120
for boys, being called a virgin,
been called a nerd, being called

271
00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:44,480
a geek. 
But as I write in the book in 

272
00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:48,600
Cell is a harder kind of 
sentence than being called a 

273
00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:51,760
version, a nerd or geek back in 
the day, because it's everything

274
00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:54,720
combined. 
It's saying you're a loser, 

275
00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:56,840
you're ugly, you'll never have 
sex. 

276
00:14:57,080 --> 00:15:01,360
But also in a additional and you
might also kill people because 

277
00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:03,360
there's a terroristic component 
to that word. 

278
00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:08,760
So the word insult holds a lot 
of power as an insult right now.

279
00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:13,960
So his 13 year old mind couldn't
handle that and his 13 year old 

280
00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:18,160
mind went off the absolute deep 
end to an extremes that is very 

281
00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:22,120
rare, but can happen. 
And that's was the kind of the, 

282
00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:26,160
it's the effect of the 
manosphere in day-to-day world 

283
00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:29,400
when like when young minds can 
comprehend it, when they're 

284
00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:32,840
picking up pieces like 8020 
rule, which they mentioned the 

285
00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:36,040
adolescence where, you know, the
policeman son explains to the 

286
00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:39,080
policeman all about these little
signifiers and what they mean 

287
00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:41,800
and what they're coded for. 
And the policeman is like, what 

288
00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:43,560
what's going on? 
I don't understand any of this. 

289
00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:47,240
All kids know it. 
It's not a niche thing anymore. 

290
00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:49,600
It's like the insole world. 
You have seeped into the 

291
00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:52,400
mainstream and kids are picking 
up pieces about it. 

292
00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:56,400
But they know that to be called 
insult is to be called 

293
00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:58,400
everything bad you've ever been 
called. 

294
00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:02,040
School shooter, loser, virgin, 
weirdo, geek, scary person I 

295
00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:05,000
don't want to talk to. 
It's all of those things 

296
00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:06,840
combined. 
So the insult is heavy, 

297
00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:09,160
especially on a young mind. 
Yeah. 

298
00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:13,040
So they're using this in schools
right now in the UK as an 

299
00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:15,240
insult. 
Kids at the age of 13, including

300
00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:18,880
each of them in cells. 
Yeah, yeah, I think they are. 

301
00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:21,920
I think that's also because 
we've kind of started. 

302
00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:24,360
I mean, the media has also 
started calling random people 

303
00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:26,240
insults. 
Like I've seen Elon Musk been 

304
00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:29,040
called an insult. 
I should state that insults are 

305
00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:32,720
very much young men who feel 
that they will never have sex, 

306
00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:36,000
never have a relationship. 
That is a heavy stipulation of 

307
00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:37,320
being an insult. 
It is literally called 

308
00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:41,680
involuntary celibate. 
So to call a man like Elon Musk,

309
00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:45,400
who has a million children and 
install that goes against the 

310
00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:48,560
grain of the actual word. 
It's pedantic. 

311
00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:50,640
It might sound pedantic. 
Some people listening are like, 

312
00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:53,000
look, I couldn't care less. 
I'm not trying to be correct 

313
00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:55,360
about the word verbiage. 
All I know is insult equals 

314
00:16:55,360 --> 00:16:57,360
misogyny. 
So I'm going to keep using that 

315
00:16:57,360 --> 00:16:59,720
about the men who I find who are
misogynistic. 

316
00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:03,960
That is fair in a weird way 
until it gets down to the nitty 

317
00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:06,400
gritty of who is most likely to 
be using that word, which is 

318
00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:09,839
teenagers and what that what 
that insult means and how they 

319
00:17:09,839 --> 00:17:11,480
levy that attack against each 
other. 

320
00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:16,480
And that's where kind of, yeah, 
it's gotten into difficulties, 

321
00:17:16,599 --> 00:17:19,400
especially with autistic young 
men and boys. 

322
00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:22,319
They get the worst of it because
they're not fitting in. 

323
00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:24,720
And, you know, they make 
mistakes. 

324
00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:28,400
They say weird things sometimes 
potentially, and they may get 

325
00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:32,000
the brunt of that kind of attack
coming in hot and heavy. 

326
00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:34,440
And that's why in the insult 
community we see an over 

327
00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:38,160
representation of autistic 
teenagers involved as well. 

328
00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:42,320
So there is a lot of problems. 
You can't just decide, you know,

329
00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:44,720
sometimes we're going to use a 
word like insult to describe 

330
00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:47,800
everyone I don't like because 
there could be someone that is 

331
00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:50,720
vulnerable who's caught in the 
crossfires and has that attack 

332
00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:54,480
levied at them and suddenly, 
yeah, we we have to kind of 

333
00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:56,240
think about, yeah, the words we 
use. 

334
00:17:56,920 --> 00:17:59,400
And how big is this in terms of 
like, we heard a lot about the 

335
00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:03,440
manosphere and red pill. 
We know the scale and how much 

336
00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:05,800
is present on social media. 
It's been lots of conversation 

337
00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:08,600
in terms of the like the black 
peeled side of things. 

338
00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:10,240
How? 
How big is it? 

339
00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:13,840
Say the black pill is bigger 
than the red pill. 

340
00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:17,640
I think the red pill has lost a 
lot of its kind of fire. 

341
00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:22,160
Andrew Tate, he kind of like, 
you know, he was a big trending 

342
00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:27,200
person into 2020-2021, 22. 
But when he kind of died down, 

343
00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:28,800
the red pill died down again 
with him. 

344
00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:30,200
Now, he didn't invent the red 
pill. 

345
00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:34,080
He actually came along about 10 
years into its inception. 

346
00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:36,080
Red pill was around online 
before then. 

347
00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:37,640
It just wasn't really a big 
thing. 

348
00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:42,680
He made it a big thing, but as 
he kind of laughed it, it also 

349
00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:44,800
kind of lost. 
It's it's kind of like, you 

350
00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:48,080
know, pizzazz or whatever you 
want to say in cells have stuck 

351
00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:50,840
around and the black pill has 
kind of morphed into the 

352
00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:54,560
mainstream, which is why we 
might see like more figures like

353
00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:57,840
Clavicular or these people that 
you probably don't know yet, but

354
00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:00,200
who are coming up on the 
mainstream channels talking 

355
00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:04,240
about being attractive or bone 
smashing is this thing like, you

356
00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:06,400
know, making sure his face looks
good and kind of, you know, 

357
00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:08,680
smashing it with a hammer. 
Looks maxing. 

358
00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:10,400
That's called looks maxing, 
isn't it? 

359
00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:11,720
It looks. 
Like exactly. 

360
00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:14,200
It's all part of the looks. 
By the way, that bone smashing 

361
00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:17,280
thing, I think that is literally
that is a troll that is meant to

362
00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:20,040
kind of like make people think 
like, Oh my gosh, I can't 

363
00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:21,600
believe this crazy person saying
that. 

364
00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:24,600
There's a lot of this kind of 
performance art to get clicks 

365
00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:28,160
and lights in this world. 
But there is at the heart of it 

366
00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:32,520
a 14 year old who is consuming 
this and thinking, oh, I better 

367
00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:34,200
start looking at my face a bit 
more. 

368
00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:37,680
Oh, I didn't realize my eyes 
aren't as aren't what they 

369
00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:39,080
should be. 
If I want to be attractive, I 

370
00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:41,160
need to quantize which is more 
like slit eyes. 

371
00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,880
My eyes are too big, my nose is 
too big, my chin is too small. 

372
00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:47,720
I have a tiny forehead. 
Whatever might be. 

373
00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:50,640
Boys are examining themselves 
now with a fine comb. 

374
00:19:51,120 --> 00:19:54,280
And this kind of looks Max in 
culture has come directly from 

375
00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:55,960
the insult culture. 
They invented the word. 

376
00:19:56,360 --> 00:20:03,080
So there's a lot going on there.
I've seen videos of people like 

377
00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:07,160
clavicular, clavicular, I was 
going to call it car vascular. 

378
00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:09,640
Well, let's just call on that as
an insult and. 

379
00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:15,000
He who do these like mad face 
exercises where so they're 

380
00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:20,320
trying to make their jaw really 
chiseled and they over and over 

381
00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:24,720
and over again moving of their 
jaw until they do videos like 10

382
00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:27,240
weeks later and it's sort of 
looks more chiseled. 

383
00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:30,720
I actually, when I was younger, 
my mum used to have a video 

384
00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:35,080
called Fit Face and it was all 
about reducing wrinkles. 

385
00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:39,120
And she'd sit in front of the TV
and she would do these crazy 

386
00:20:39,120 --> 00:20:41,880
like couch. 
There was a cow chew, there was 

387
00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:46,240
a meow, there was a, you know, 
all these mad face exercises to 

388
00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:49,120
help reduce wrinkles. 
And it feels like they've taken 

389
00:20:49,120 --> 00:20:55,040
that and made it into something 
for younger men that I mean, and

390
00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:58,800
these men look crazy to me. 
I look insane. 

391
00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:04,920
Terrifying chiseled faces that 
are so unattractive. 

392
00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:11,480
I just, would you say it's the 
manosphere then? 

393
00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:14,400
The term the manosphere? 
Is that a kind of catch all term

394
00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:18,080
for all of this? 
So black pill, Red Pill, you 

395
00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:22,520
know, Andrew Tate, men who talk 
about masculinity, how would you

396
00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:25,400
describe the monosphere as a 
different thing to Black pill? 

397
00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:29,680
Yeah, well, it's been described 
as kind of a loose network of 

398
00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:33,240
groups that kind of all kind of 
tie around this idea of anti 

399
00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:35,760
feminism. 
So anti feminism is like kind of

400
00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:40,000
saying like feminism has gone 
too far, women have too much 

401
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:43,080
power in society and politics 
and jobs and whatever. 

402
00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:46,760
And we need to kind of just 
retrace our steps and go back to

403
00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:49,080
the girl, the old days of 1550s.
Because you know what, 

404
00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:52,560
everything was better back then.
We all had a wife, we all had a 

405
00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:56,840
white picket fence, we all had 
2.5 kids and everyone was happy 

406
00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:59,320
and why did they, these 
feminists came and ruined it 

407
00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:01,920
all. 
Now there is a lot that goes 

408
00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:07,440
into that idea that comes from, 
I won't go into today, but our 

409
00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:10,680
friends, the far right. 
So there is something around 

410
00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:13,640
that as well that has been kind 
of bolstered around this other 

411
00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:18,320
ideology of let's go back to 
when things were very simple for

412
00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:20,000
a specific type of group of 
people. 

413
00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:23,800
Now, when you think about the 
1950s, what insults are really 

414
00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:27,080
looking for is that the idea 
that they think back then, all 

415
00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:30,840
they needed was just a job, a 
steady job in the shop, in the 

416
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:33,080
factory. 
And lo and behold, they would 

417
00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:36,200
have had a lady who would come 
up and say, or they'd come up 

418
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:38,240
and say, hey, would you like to 
marry me? 

419
00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:42,760
We're 21, let's go, let's do it.
It's very simple, easy peasy. 

420
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:47,440
Now that is obviously a really 
kind of rigid and untrue 

421
00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:49,880
history. 
As we understand, even though 

422
00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:53,080
women were a little bit 
pressured into marrying earlier,

423
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:56,320
they don't understand that their
their relationships weren't 

424
00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:57,720
always happy. 
And. 

425
00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:01,200
They also look at divorce rates 
a lot, so you'll see a lot of 

426
00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:03,560
chat about divorce rates these 
days and say, oh, there's more 

427
00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:07,240
divorce due to feminism. 
Back in the 1950s, no one 

428
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:08,760
divorced. 
Yeah, because they weren't 

429
00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:09,800
meant. 
They weren't allowed to. 

430
00:23:10,360 --> 00:23:14,120
Um, but they wanted to. 
A lot of them lived in utter 

431
00:23:14,120 --> 00:23:17,800
kind of awful kind of, you know,
I don't even like my husband. 

432
00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:19,640
I don't like my wife, but I 
can't leave. 

433
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:24,280
Many mistresses, many affairs. 
All this stuff is going on. 

434
00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:26,600
Alcoholism through the roof. 
There was a high suicide rate 

435
00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:30,360
among men in the 1950s as well. 
All this is nicely and neatly 

436
00:23:30,360 --> 00:23:33,840
forgotten in the insolent 
manosphere worldview because it 

437
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:37,000
was a time pre the sexual 
revolution and pre feminism, and

438
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:40,880
therefore pre when women started
getting too big for their booths

439
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:43,800
and deciding who they want to 
marry or making their own money.

440
00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:50,320
So you can see there is that 
desire for control and that is 

441
00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:53,640
really scary. 
It's scary because voting habits

442
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:56,160
are going there and it's not 
just insults. 

443
00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:59,200
There's a whole group of these 
people and it's scary because 

444
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:04,120
it's based around desperation 
because I'll let you, sorry, I'm

445
00:24:04,120 --> 00:24:06,320
talking a bit too much all at 
once or in. 

446
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:10,320
But when insults in these 
groups, like, you know, if they 

447
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:12,800
were to get a bit happy, when 
they do get a bit happy. 

448
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:16,400
And I've met guys who, you know,
they found a job they liked and 

449
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,320
suddenly hanging out in the 
misery forum isn't, isn't that 

450
00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:23,760
much crap, which who knew? 
But, you know, they start to get

451
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,560
happy and then they start to 
kind of, you know, say like, oh,

452
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:29,280
maybe maybe I didn't want a 
wife, but I was 21. 

453
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:30,600
Maybe that would have been a lot
of pressure. 

454
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:33,440
Or maybe, you know, you have to 
meet someone that you fall in 

455
00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:35,800
love with overtime, maybe need 
to date more than one person in 

456
00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:38,040
your life. 
Suddenly their, their minds are 

457
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:39,560
being open. 
It's like, you know, they're 

458
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:42,520
understanding through first 
principles that what we live in 

459
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,400
is a better society for not just
women, but for them. 

460
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:47,560
Yeah. 
And that's something that they 

461
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:51,360
they realize later on they're 
like, oh, for men to actually, 

462
00:24:51,360 --> 00:24:54,360
I'm glad I didn't have this 
1950s life. 

463
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,560
So there is a lot of that that 
comes on when they get a bit 

464
00:24:57,560 --> 00:24:59,160
happier. 
But while they're miserable, 

465
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:02,560
while they're depressed, the 
idea of that kind of controlled 

466
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:06,520
environment where they feel the 
breadwinners with the money and,

467
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,360
and getting and, and, you know, 
the workplace being easier to 

468
00:25:09,360 --> 00:25:13,040
get into, that's more appealing.
And that's all they're kind of 

469
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:14,840
focused on as well. 
Yeah. 

470
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:22,120
I have two questions really. 
Firstly, about like the 

471
00:25:22,120 --> 00:25:25,360
vulnerable. 
What is the vulnerable phase? 

472
00:25:25,360 --> 00:25:29,960
If you are a parent and you have
a son, what? 

473
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,320
Sort of signs. 
Would you be looking out for to 

474
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:36,400
think, oh, they're prime for 
falling it down a black pill 

475
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:39,680
movement hole? 
But also, you know, and I think 

476
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:45,360
they're linked like what? 
How do we counted them as people

477
00:25:45,360 --> 00:25:48,320
who are, you know, terrified 
about what this means for the 

478
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:51,320
future? 
Because it feels to me like this

479
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:55,840
is linked to a nihilistic 
society, Like we are looking at 

480
00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:59,600
the world and thinking good God 
like hope he's being crushed. 

481
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:01,280
Left, right and. 
Centre There are walls 

482
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:03,960
everywhere, there is poverty 
everywhere, there are people 

483
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:06,640
can't get on their housing 
market, people can't get jobs. 

484
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:10,600
There is a lot of bad news 
everywhere in turn. 

485
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:16,240
And when there is when there is 
all this bad stuff going on, 

486
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:19,680
inevitably you're going to feel 
more of an affiliation with the 

487
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,520
movement that just allows you to
feel completely miserable. 

488
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:25,080
It doesn't expect you to feel 
happy and hopeful when you're 

489
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:29,680
surrounded by misery. 
So there were there were two 

490
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:34,760
questions coming out of that. 
As a parent, what would you what

491
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:36,880
would you be looking out for 
from your children? 

492
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:40,560
And secondly, what do you think 
we need to do Is that as people 

493
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:43,600
are going who don't want this to
spread to counter it? 

494
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:48,600
It is really difficult with as a
parent in some ways, some 

495
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:49,920
sometimes it's actually really 
easy. 

496
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:53,160
I have come across cases where 
you know, a young person was 

497
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:57,000
outwardly saying how women have 
too much power and women are 

498
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:01,520
stupid and calling them FOID, 
which is the insult slur, which 

499
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:05,040
is basically like female robots 
because it's like Android. 

500
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:08,800
So it's a FOID. 
So basically women have no like 

501
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:10,600
humanity. 
They're actually just stupid 

502
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:13,040
robots who go along with what, 
you know, they're told by the 

503
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:16,520
media when they're using these 
terms. 

504
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,480
And they're also just outwardly 
being kind of, you know, mean 

505
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:22,400
towards girls in their class, 
not wanting to sit beside them 

506
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,360
saying like, I don't like Alice.
Alice is stupid, you know, 

507
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,000
things like that. 
It's like, well, I think your, 

508
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,920
your son has a misogyny problem 
and that's worth investigating. 

509
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:36,480
Or they get reports from the 
school saying sorry, we've had a

510
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,440
few girls come up to us saying 
that, you know, Charlie was 

511
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:42,080
walking down the corridor and 
said some really cruel things to

512
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:44,160
them and has been doing that for
a while. 

513
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:46,960
That's that's why not, you know,
stand up and listen, because 

514
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:49,720
this isn't the kind of boys will
be boys society and that's not a

515
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:52,080
boys will be boys um thing 
anymore. 

516
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:54,600
You know that that's not kind of
playful. 

517
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,240
Oops, I said the wrong thing. 
I said a joke that was a bit 

518
00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,120
sexist. 
I didn't mean it like that. 

519
00:27:59,120 --> 00:28:03,240
I just was trying to be this is 
consistent behavior based on 

520
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,880
resentment, jealousy and kind of
this feeling of inadequacy. 

521
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:10,080
This is this is when they are 
angry, you know, they're not 

522
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:13,400
playful, they're angry. 
And that's a whole difference. 

523
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:15,520
And you can see that bubbling up
in kids. 

524
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:17,960
I mean, someone will capture, 
they're not great at hiding it. 

525
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,720
So, so in those cases, yes, when
you see the resentment boiling 

526
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:25,160
and you're noticing these 
attitudes, you need help and 

527
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:27,680
intervention. 
Now help and intervention, that 

528
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:29,440
could be another question. 
We've talked about what this 

529
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:32,760
does that look like, but there 
are some cases where 

530
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,880
unfortunately parents, you know,
I want to be really sensitive, 

531
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:39,120
but how about how I put this? 
Parents have gone through the 

532
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,400
mill with trying to get their 
child support throughout their 

533
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:47,680
childhood for numerous issues of
autism or social skills shyness.

534
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,400
They're just trying to get by 
each day. 

535
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:53,400
Whether you know, it's not a 
scream or a cry or the kid goes 

536
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,640
to school is a is a win. 
And then that child starts 

537
00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:59,280
spending a lot of time online 
and the rink were quiet in their

538
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:01,640
room and oh, thank God, he's not
being upset today. 

539
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,440
He's just quietly on his 
computer and look, nothing that 

540
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:05,720
can happen. 
I don't care. 

541
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:09,520
Like just let me have a rest. 
That's when the problem starts. 

542
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,680
And then it's kind of when the 
proof, the, when the person has 

543
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:15,520
gone kind of more inward and 
quiet and less kind of overt and

544
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,520
shouting about their problems 
and they've gone more silent, 

545
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:22,000
that's when the problem starts. 
And that's when you have to say 

546
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:23,880
why? 
Like what's going on online? 

547
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:25,840
You're going to have to do a 
little bit of detective work 

548
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:28,880
sometimes going through the 
computer, taking the computer to

549
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,000
the computer shop saying can you
look at the history? 

550
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:33,840
Is there any way for you to look
at the history saying to the 

551
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:35,720
kid, you can't have a password, 
but you got to give me your 

552
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:36,920
password. 
If you don't give me your 

553
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:38,560
password, computer's going in 
the bin. 

554
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:40,480
It's Mike, give me your 
password. 

555
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:44,720
I need to see as much as I can 
like before they start to clock 

556
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:46,640
about how to hide their Internet
activity. 

557
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:48,920
You need to figure out where 
they've been. 

558
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:51,760
Now again, this is a 
complicated. 

559
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:53,960
There's a support networks 
involved that can help you with 

560
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:57,800
this prevent being one, but it 
is about kind of invest knowing.

561
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:00,280
Look, my child has the 
vulnerabilities that are exactly

562
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:03,680
described as the ones which can 
be exploited by these groups. 

563
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:07,160
He's alone, he's sad, he feels 
ugly, he's got social skills 

564
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,360
problems. 
I think he's right for the for 

565
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:12,320
the picking look, worse things 
worse, you go on the 12th 

566
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,000
computer and he's actually 
having a fun time on, you know, 

567
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:16,320
World of Warcraft and it's all 
good. 

568
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:17,200
Great. 
That's great. 

569
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:19,400
That's excellent. 
You annoyed him for about a 

570
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:21,200
week. 
He he's crying because you 

571
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:22,880
invited him for his privacy for 
a week. 

572
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:25,640
OK, live it. 
But the other thing is 

573
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:28,960
unfortunately more typical. 
That's the problem with 

574
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:31,160
algorithms and content. 
And I won't go into that too 

575
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:34,880
much, but it is more typical 
that they've been gauging in 

576
00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:37,840
something toxic, not because 
they're horrible, because that's

577
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:40,560
the way the Internet works and 
that if you're on it too long, 

578
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:41,960
you're going to find these 
spaces. 

579
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:43,800
And yeah, that's the problem, 
yeah. 

580
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:46,920
It's actually happened to a 
friend of mine recently. 

581
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:51,720
She has an autistic child and he
was really struggling with 

582
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:56,640
school and he was having, you 
know, he was being very loud 

583
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:58,120
about it. 
They're both where they were 

584
00:30:58,120 --> 00:30:59,760
both finding it incredibly 
difficult. 

585
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:03,600
And he stopped going to school, 
refused to go to school, started

586
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:05,400
being in his bedroom all the 
time on the screens. 

587
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:07,720
And she found out he's been 
groomed online. 

588
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:13,760
And, you know, it had been going
on for weeks before she 

589
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:15,840
discovered what had actually 
been going on. 

590
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:19,480
And then the police had to get 
involved, you know, So I 

591
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:22,080
absolutely agree. 
You've got to intervene a bit 

592
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:26,800
early possible opportunity and 
goes through that computer, goes

593
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:30,600
through that phone and figure 
out what your child is doing 9. 

594
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:35,440
And just on that as well, it's 
really difficult in technical, 

595
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:39,800
technological age for parents to
keep up with their children. 

596
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:42,400
Like you could be in your 40s 
and be working in the tech 

597
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,440
industry and not be as good as 
your 12 year old at home at the 

598
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:49,240
computer. 
So there's new groups popping up

599
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,320
called nihilistic violent 
extremists that have the same 

600
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:55,120
kind of like ideas, misogyny, 
nihilism and whatever. 

601
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:57,760
It's like insults on steroids. 
Now they're getting way more 

602
00:31:57,760 --> 00:31:59,880
violent. 
And these groups are also 

603
00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:04,280
teaching kids how to kind of use
VPNs, how to go on torrents, how

604
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:08,160
to kind of like scrape, um, 
other people's, um, you know, 

605
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:12,000
uh, details and, and hack them 
and, and docks them and do all 

606
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:15,560
this great. 
Like impressive tech 

607
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:19,640
technological, kind of like 
savvy teenagers were the reason 

608
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:24,400
that M&S had a hacking issue a 
couple of years ago at TfL and a

609
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:27,960
bunch of their place. 
So their ability, unfortunately 

610
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,840
to kind of conceal their own 
stuff from their parents is 

611
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:33,360
getting better. 
So it's really difficult and 

612
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:36,160
complicated, but you do have to 
kind of like as much as you can 

613
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:38,560
lay down the law. 
If you are concerned about your 

614
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,040
boy who's suddenly kind of 
become very quiet online. 

615
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:43,160
When he used to be a bit more 
kind of vocal about his 

616
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:45,280
problems. 
Now he's suddenly a little bit 

617
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:48,640
easier to be around. 
But that's because he's venting 

618
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:52,000
out there, you know, Now, I'm 
not saying that's always the 

619
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:55,080
way, but you know what I mean? 
It could be that situation 

620
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:59,160
again, best connect situation is
he's having fun on a game where 

621
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:02,920
situation is he's in these very 
popular spaces online. 

622
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:08,720
So yeah, it's complicated. 
And you can, if you are really 

623
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:12,240
concerned, he said. 
Potentially go to prevent is 

624
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:15,600
that. 
Yeah, yeah, so parents who are 

625
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:19,400
concerned about their children 
online and who are acting a bit 

626
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:23,840
strange now, acting strange in 
just out of character or or 

627
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:26,360
being aggressive, being more 
aggressive or whatever it might 

628
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:27,400
be. 
They're just concerned. 

629
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:28,880
But they can't break into the 
laptop. 

630
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:32,400
They're not sure what to do. 
They can go to the school and 

631
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:35,440
the school can make a referral 
to Prevent and Prevent is a pre 

632
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:38,120
criminal space. 
There's a Prevent officer in 

633
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:42,880
every borough in the UK. 
They deal almost primarily with 

634
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:47,040
teenage who are vulnerable and 
at risk and then who are in 

635
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:50,960
these groups and spaces and they
can do a little kind of help and

636
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:54,520
assistance and kind of figuring 
out is your child in in this 

637
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:56,080
world? 
How far down? 

638
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:58,760
What is the support system 
necessary for that? 

639
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:00,560
And they give a range of 
different support. 

640
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:03,960
So you can get things like, you 
know, a mentor who comes for the

641
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:08,040
day to chat about masculinity or
women or misogyny and what that 

642
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:09,440
means. 
But in a way that's, you know, 

643
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,880
nuanced and friendly. 
It could be like, you know, just

644
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:16,159
kind of online safety course 
because maybe the kid is 

645
00:34:16,159 --> 00:34:18,400
trusting too many people or 
trusting what they're saying. 

646
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:23,480
I was working with a group of 
boys recently in Newham and they

647
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:26,679
were all at risk in different 
ways, different kind of issues. 

648
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:28,800
We're not all of them, but many 
of them. 

649
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:32,920
And there was one boy who really
had a problem, struggled with 

650
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:38,480
fantasy and reality. 
And when it came to kind of 

651
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:42,400
like, you know, saying a joke or
I would say like a fake story or

652
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:45,320
I just make a joke that was 
obviously not true and had like 

653
00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:47,440
a million kind of fantasy 
elements in it. 

654
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:49,360
Like, you know, I can't remember
exactly. 

655
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,080
But he couldn't, he couldn't 
really understand that. 

656
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:55,000
So he kept thinking, you know, 
like, oh, wow, you were really, 

657
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,960
you were really on a stage with,
you know, Madonna, whatever, 

658
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,400
whatever you said, he thought 
actually kind of happens. 

659
00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:05,080
And so that's really dangerous 
when they're online and they're 

660
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:07,160
seeing memes and a lot of 
misogyny. 

661
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:11,000
And it's like, women only want 
the top 10% who are 6, four and 

662
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,720
make 7 million figures. 
He's like, oh, really? 

663
00:35:13,720 --> 00:35:16,800
Like, you know, that's the kid. 
You might fall into this. 

664
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:18,920
And so there is a lot. 
Yeah. 

665
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:21,120
Challenges. 
So that point is really 

666
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:25,200
interesting because there's been
so I would say who it is, but in

667
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:30,800
my network, some kids who were 
doing a prank and they did the 

668
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:32,560
prank. 
And when they came, when I, when

669
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:36,960
I found out and I spoke to them,
it's like they didn't realise 

670
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:40,480
that them doing this prank to, 
to human beings could have 

671
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:44,000
repercussions because they've 
seen stuff online so much and 

672
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:46,440
they've seen like, you know, 
people on TikTok or whatever 

673
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:47,840
doing stuff and getting away 
with it. 

674
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:49,920
It's all fun and jokes. 
And they didn't realise there's 

675
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:51,880
a real world consequence. 
If you go to prank someone, that

676
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:54,120
person may respond and they, you
don't know what they're going to

677
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:55,200
do to you. 
They might hurt you. 

678
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:58,520
And it's like they couldn't, 
they couldn't comprehend. 

679
00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:01,520
And I thought, you're sitting 
online watching these things. 

680
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:05,200
And I think you're finding it 
hard to separate the real world 

681
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:08,120
from what's happening online. 
So when you said that, yeah, I 

682
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:11,080
was like, yes, I, I feel like 
seeing so much stuff online is, 

683
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:14,160
is blurring the lines between 
like what's reality and what's 

684
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:16,800
real. 
Absolutely, absolutely. 

685
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:18,600
And and what's sad is it is 
real. 

686
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:22,680
It is, it can be real anyway. 
And, you know, there was a mass 

687
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:25,400
case of harassment from the 
insult community a few years 

688
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:29,960
that I was a few years ago now. 
But it was the case of beautiful

689
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:33,200
and really lovely looking. 
Like lovely kind girl was 

690
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:35,760
brutally murdered by someone she
met on the Internet. 

691
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:37,600
And she was like an Internet 
influencer. 

692
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:41,040
So she had like a little bit of 
a following and people kind of 

693
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:43,040
knew a little bit about her. 
She wasn't super famous, but she

694
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:45,560
had a bit of a following. 
And so she was brutally 

695
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:48,440
murdered. 
And the guy who killed her put a

696
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:53,760
picture of her murdered body on 
the Internet because he was. 

697
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,960
Yeah, he was awful. 
Now, that picture went viral in 

698
00:36:57,960 --> 00:36:58,880
certain spaces. 
Now. 

699
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:00,880
Then it stopped. 
But then the insults, because 

700
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:02,960
they were feeling for the 
extremist insults, because they 

701
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:05,680
were feeling angry and 
resentment, they picked up on 

702
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:08,960
that. 
And they for kind of feelings of

703
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:12,360
power and control, they kept 
sending that photo to her 

704
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:15,080
mother. 
So different users and different

705
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:17,760
members of the community, this 
would have been a year later or 

706
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:21,280
something kept sending that 
photo over and over and over 

707
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:25,120
again to her family. 
And of course, like, that's so 

708
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:28,000
traumatizing. 
Every day getting the same photo

709
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:30,720
of your daughter, which you knew
existed, but now is being sent 

710
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:34,680
every single day. 
And that kind of harassment 

711
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:38,200
feels very unreal to them 
because this is a person who 

712
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:40,320
don't know when they're sending 
it to another person, they don't

713
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:41,520
know. 
And these are characters in a 

714
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:43,520
movie. 
But there's a sense of power and

715
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:45,360
control about it. 
Like, haha, look at this. 

716
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:49,040
But it's not funny. 
And it's also not, it does have 

717
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:53,080
real world consequences. 
And it's not until they're a bit

718
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:56,480
old or they get in problems, 
legal problems or they, you 

719
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:58,960
know, someone punches them in 
the face because they say wrong 

720
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:01,160
things. 
You know, it's not until those 

721
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:04,480
moments that the penny drops 
because it feels Internet is 

722
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:06,720
like Vegas to them. 
Everything that happens online 

723
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:08,960
stays online. 
But it's not Vegas. 

724
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:12,680
It is real. 
So it's really difficult to deal

725
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:14,800
with these crimes because back 
in the day, Yeah, as you say, if

726
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:17,400
you have to do a crime, kind of 
has to do a face to face, unless

727
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:20,120
you were doing like postal 
fraud, like you kind of have to 

728
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:22,560
go into the room with the you're
about to do like, you know, a 

729
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:26,080
mug or there might be and do it.
You need a bit of like 

730
00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:29,080
confidence and social power. 
But they don't need that 

731
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:31,800
anymore. 
They are able to do a lot of 

732
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:35,160
damage online, but it doesn't 
feel the same way. 

733
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:37,200
It doesn't feel real. 
It feels like GTA. 

734
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:40,680
So that's real problem. 
And it's going to be a problem 

735
00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:43,640
going forward in our in our 
world as well because of the 

736
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:44,360
Internet. 
Yeah, but. 

737
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:47,560
I was sort of like, you need to 
feel the consequences to 

738
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:50,680
understand you can't just go 
around the world doing what you 

739
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:52,480
want to do. 
Like you're interacting with 

740
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:54,640
human beings. 
And I think, you know, we, we 

741
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:58,920
talk a lot about the, the, the 
removal of third spaces in terms

742
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:02,160
of young people aren't 
necessarily experiencing the 

743
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:05,400
real world as much as we were 
like walking around youth 

744
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:10,080
centres, our school clubs, just 
hanging around and you have to 

745
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:12,040
interact and it's good, it's 
bad. 

746
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:13,800
There's consequences to whatever
you do. 

747
00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:15,800
So you learn how to navigate in 
the world. 

748
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:17,880
And I think if you're living 
online, you, you don't, you 

749
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:21,040
don't do that. 
So that example devastating, but

750
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:23,520
you can see how they're not even
realising the impact. 

751
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:26,840
They're not, they're not seeing 
this is a real person, a real 

752
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:28,920
mother that you're selling this 
to. 

753
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:30,920
They they don't get that, you 
know, So I think we need to 

754
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:32,960
encourage our kids to live in 
the real world as much as 

755
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:35,920
possible. 
Yeah, and I I mean, you 

756
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:39,320
mentioned it Jolie, just a 
moment ago about like nihilism 

757
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:42,400
kind of seeping through and 
like, you know, I that's an 

758
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:44,080
interesting point in bit of 
because just as you said, 

759
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:47,280
Elliot, like we are now seeing 
something called nihilistic 

760
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:49,440
violent extremist groups for the
first time in a while. 

761
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:53,120
Like we've really seen them run 
by kids, kind of kids who are 

762
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:56,080
kids to extremism. 
And a lot of these kids would 

763
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:59,640
have been maybe not that they 
would have been in the world 

764
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:01,880
because they're too young. 
Maybe they would have been the 

765
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:04,640
types who would have been on the
insult forums, but they found a 

766
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:06,760
new forum. 
This new forum has a lot more 

767
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:11,080
kind of misogyny wracked with 
violence and and pure nihilism. 

768
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:14,880
So the the types of crimes we're
seeing coming from these groups 

769
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:16,960
is probably. 
The most abhorrent we've seen 

770
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:19,320
from any extremist group. 
We're talking a lot of like 

771
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:21,880
child sexual abuse material. 
We're talking about animal 

772
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:24,360
abuse, we're talking about 
arson, talking about murder, 

773
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:27,400
talking about other forms of 
assault, because it's all acts 

774
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:29,640
done in the name of nihilism. 
And in order to be in the 

775
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:31,440
groups, you have to kind of pay 
to play. 

776
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:36,160
So you have to do an act of kind
of horror or terror or have sex 

777
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:39,200
sorted a young girl in the 
Internet and any kind of bad. 

778
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:41,200
It's very like related to kind 
of in the audience of being 

779
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:43,000
evil. 
I'm a nihilist in the kind of 

780
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:47,080
like teenage version of it. 
And these are now kids who are 

781
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:49,480
more extreme than the kids we 
saw five years ago in the in 

782
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:51,720
cell forum. 
So and they're and they're also 

783
00:40:51,720 --> 00:40:55,760
using the same terminology Ford 
or talking about misogyny and 

784
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:58,880
and it's like, wow, it's 
unfortunately instead of getting

785
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:01,560
better because of all the work 
we've supposedly done with boys,

786
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:05,200
we're now saying something even 
horrifying like a Frankenstein 

787
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:06,600
version of the in cell 
community. 

788
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:10,920
So and these kids also do not 
understand what they're doing is

789
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:14,600
real and you know they are sex 
towarding other kids online. 

790
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:17,240
They're doing other kind of 
forms of assault and it's very 

791
00:41:17,240 --> 00:41:21,880
strange stuff on my cybercrime. 
And then when they are arrested,

792
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:25,400
because they do get arrested, 
they're brought into police 

793
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:28,640
stations and there's this 
sheepish little bit like 15 year

794
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:32,240
old boy looking up with you with
big eyes like like scared and 

795
00:41:32,240 --> 00:41:33,720
and it doesn't understand what 
happened. 

796
00:41:33,720 --> 00:41:36,320
And bring in one case, bringing 
in his teddy bear to the police 

797
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:37,760
station because he was so 
nervous. 

798
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:41,360
This is the same kid who did all
these appalling crimes online to

799
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:44,000
other people. 
And yet he's terrified because 

800
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:48,080
it doesn't doesn't feel real and
nothing about it feels real. 

801
00:41:48,240 --> 00:41:50,800
And that is so scary to me 
because I don't even know how to

802
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:56,160
teach reality online. 
And then misogyny is a core part

803
00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:58,840
of it because I realized, sorry,
this is the last thing I say. 

804
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:02,000
I go these long tangents. 
But I've realized that people 

805
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:05,600
who aren't angry at women, like 
especially boys, if you are a 

806
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:08,240
boy and you actually like women,
you're having a fine time with 

807
00:42:08,240 --> 00:42:10,520
them or girls, you know, you 
have friends who are girls, 

808
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:13,120
maybe you have a girlfriend. 
You're very unlikely to join an 

809
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:16,600
extremist group. 
I've never seen people who like 

810
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:21,200
women in any extremist group. 
It's always a problem you've had

811
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:23,360
with women. 
Women seems to be like a car 

812
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:27,520
component of being vulnerable or
kind of wanting to join an 

813
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:30,840
extremist group much more than 
race, religion, ethnicity. 

814
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:32,560
It's kind of your feelings about
women. 

815
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:36,640
So that is kind of the thread 
that links them all together. 

816
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:39,080
And the scary thing about that 
is like growing up as a young 

817
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:42,560
boy for a lot of young boys, 
like one of their main 

818
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:44,400
objectives is to get a 
girlfriend and have sex. 

819
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:48,360
And, but that's not always easy,
not for any other reason than 

820
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:50,680
it's just, you know, it's just 
not easy, right? 

821
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:55,120
It's human relationships. 
And like you, you, you can, it's

822
00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:59,320
very normal to, to struggle to 
find a girlfriend at 16 years 

823
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:00,560
old. 
That's just completely normal 

824
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:02,560
for most boys. 
It's not, that's not out of the 

825
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:05,400
ordinary. 
So it could be a, a very normal 

826
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:08,920
experience or rejection that 
happens to everyone that leads 

827
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:12,480
you to quite extreme paths when 
actually that's just the part of

828
00:43:12,480 --> 00:43:15,920
growing up and normal life. 
And for most people, they figure

829
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:18,960
it out and you know, at their 
own timing, they, they get a 

830
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:20,720
girlfriend, they have, they have
sex and it's successful. 

831
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:24,440
So it's just sad now that I 
think back in the day before, 

832
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:27,680
because there wasn't that online
world in that community to go 

833
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:30,080
to, you just kind of carry on, 
carry on, carry on. 

834
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:31,000
And eventually you figure it 
out. 

835
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:32,840
Whereas now it's like, Oh no, 
this thing happened to me, this 

836
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:34,440
girl rejected me, which is 
completely normal. 

837
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:36,920
I'm going to go and join this 
extreme group and have these 

838
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:39,560
extreme views. 
That's quite scary. 

839
00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:43,560
It is it isn't exactly what you 
say like the normal experience 

840
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:46,880
has been pathologized online 
into being this like, you know, 

841
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:50,320
in the indication of not only 
your now but your future too. 

842
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:52,960
And there is the some things are
true. 

843
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:56,600
For example, the age of losing 
your virginity has gone up as 

844
00:43:56,600 --> 00:44:00,760
the typical age range has gone 
up and met It's now like 1920 or

845
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:02,680
maybe about that. 
Who cares? 

846
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:04,640
Who cares? 
You know, I know some guys are 

847
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:06,960
going to be like, you don't 
understand, like, you know, how 

848
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:09,960
upsetting that that is to hear 
that I have to wait till I'm 19 

849
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:13,880
or that 19 is the standard. 
We these arbitrary ages. 

850
00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:17,560
Some people do don't lose their 
opportunity until they're 2223 

851
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:20,000
and that's fine. 
They go on to live very normal 

852
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:22,680
lives. 
But but in these like, you know,

853
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:24,600
it's not exactly the illness to 
be cured. 

854
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:27,720
But I get it in these groups, 
it's very much teenagers in the 

855
00:44:27,720 --> 00:44:29,600
here and now. 
What only matters is what 

856
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:32,640
happened at yesterday and today.
They're very bad at seeing the 

857
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:35,040
future. 
And so when they're not getting 

858
00:44:35,040 --> 00:44:37,640
what they want now or they not 
think they're up to the 

859
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:41,920
masculine kind of, you know, 
perfect masculine stereotype 

860
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:45,520
that everyone else apparently is
up to, then they get very 

861
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:47,480
resentful and they're very 
primed for the picking. 

862
00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:50,880
The insult community is huge. 
There's thousands on that forum.

863
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:53,800
There's also loads of boys who 
secretly see themselves as 

864
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:55,640
insults but are too afraid to 
join the forum. 

865
00:44:56,960 --> 00:44:59,880
And that is sad because again, 
look, when you stop kind of 

866
00:44:59,880 --> 00:45:02,920
making it into this massive 
issue that if you didn't have a 

867
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:05,640
girlfriend by the age of 19, 
everything is over for you. 

868
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:08,760
And also just to bounce off your
point, Elliot, like the the 

869
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:11,240
times of the days of the past 
have also changed a lot more. 

870
00:45:11,240 --> 00:45:15,240
Kids are a lot more socially 
kind of shy and there isn't as 

871
00:45:15,240 --> 00:45:17,400
much hanging out in the malls or
hanging out in the street or 

872
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:19,560
hanging out at parties. 
They don't have parties. 

873
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:24,200
So the hanging out is on Discord
where you don't need to have eye

874
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:27,280
contact and you don't need to 
touch each other in any anyway. 

875
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:29,840
So when you actually want to 
move that into a real 

876
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:32,880
relationship, it's really scary.
You know, to go to something, 

877
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:34,120
you have to make eye contact 
with people. 

878
00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:35,920
That's terrifying. 
And now you want to like 

879
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:38,360
hopefully date them. 
That's that's just a lot like. 

880
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:41,640
So there's a lot of regression 
and social issues going on as 

881
00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:42,240
well. 
Yeah. 

882
00:45:44,240 --> 00:45:47,040
Yeah, As a parent of two boys, I
can attest to that. 

883
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:49,760
My son was desperately trying to
get somebody to go for a bike 

884
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:52,960
ride with him yesterday. 
He was on a group with 22 of the

885
00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:55,600
boys, and they were all like, 
no, I'm going to stay in and 

886
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:59,040
play, Minecraft or no. 
And I was like the sun's 

887
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:00,880
shining. 
You just want to go for a. 

888
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:04,760
Bike ride, man. 
Come on and let's talk about 

889
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:08,960
some of the data. 
Movember's upcoming Young men 

890
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:12,040
and media reports suggest the 
manosphere is evolving. 

891
00:46:12,240 --> 00:46:14,440
It's no longer just about 
fitness or dating, but 

892
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:18,080
increasingly about money, status
and self optimization, which is 

893
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:21,200
what we've been talking about 
with these mental chiseled jaws.

894
00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:23,080
What? 
What is it that's driving the 

895
00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:26,960
shift? 
Yeah, it's, it's complicated. 

896
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:29,960
I mean, like there's a few 
things going on, but like I 

897
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:33,400
would say one of the things is 
we do live in a very kind of 

898
00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:37,440
appearance based society. 
And that's gotten way worse with

899
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:40,600
the advent of social media and 
the advent of dating apps where 

900
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:43,720
you're now picking people based 
off of the best photo they can 

901
00:46:43,720 --> 00:46:47,280
take on the beach. 
And that's like really weird. 

902
00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:51,000
Like when we think about human 
attraction, we often think about

903
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:53,840
the body movement, you know, 
like how people smile, the jokes

904
00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:55,320
they make, the little twinkle in
their eye. 

905
00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:58,880
That's all kind of but not gone 
by the way, the most a lot of 

906
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:02,400
people meet people in real life 
before the kind of more socially

907
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:05,000
shy people who are already 
struggling with social with 

908
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:07,520
fitting in. 
It now seems like that's all 

909
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:10,320
they're seeing is like the still
form image and clicking and 

910
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:13,080
picking which one on Tinder. 
I might be able to chat to you 

911
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:17,280
today if anyone and that's going
to OK, I think we're going to 

912
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:20,560
get into a problem with appears 
with this MP coming out. 

913
00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:22,720
We're going to see a lot of 
people losing weight real fast. 

914
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:26,360
We're going to see a lot of 
people kind of getting prettier 

915
00:47:26,720 --> 00:47:30,480
and a a lot of there's already 
on my content for women, a lot 

916
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:34,280
of kind of going back to the 
smaller physique is better. 

917
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:36,800
We used to have that moment 
where it was about being curvy, 

918
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:39,400
but now we're back to kind of 
the original. 

919
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:44,040
And with men, we're seeing that 
money is getting harder to make 

920
00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:47,720
because I guess AI is stealing 
your job or something like that 

921
00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:51,200
or you're afraid it is. 
So you're less inclined to think

922
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:52,240
that you're going to make much 
money. 

923
00:47:52,240 --> 00:47:55,160
So what's the next thing? 
Looking good. 

924
00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:59,400
So looking good is kind of like 
your next way into hopefully 

925
00:47:59,880 --> 00:48:02,280
attracting a woman and also just
getting some status. 

926
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:06,160
And then that obviously goes to 
the extremes when we see that 

927
00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:08,320
with like stereo abuse, as you 
said, looks, Maxine, we're going

928
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:11,440
to see more plastic surgery. 
More guys are going to be 

929
00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:15,040
fixated on how they look because
they're kind of too nervous 

930
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:17,920
about their own character, their
own personality, their social 

931
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:19,720
skills. 
So that's kind of all they got 

932
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:22,240
or in their minds, that's all 
they feel they got. 

933
00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:25,960
So they're really banking that, 
but if they look pretty enough, 

934
00:48:26,240 --> 00:48:29,160
that'll hopefully make you 
you'll ignore the fact that they

935
00:48:29,160 --> 00:48:30,920
haven't spoken to a human in a 
while. 

936
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:35,160
I find it crazy though, that 
this obsession that I'm seeing 

937
00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:38,560
online of the way men look like 
for women, I don't think women 

938
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:41,320
find that attractive. 
I don't like the muscles. 

939
00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:45,200
The chiseled jar just makes me 
feel a bit violated. 

940
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:48,680
So it sort of seems like men are
doing this. 

941
00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:54,320
They've gone off on this weird, 
the path of trying to make 

942
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:57,560
themselves look something that 
they think is attractive to 

943
00:48:57,560 --> 00:48:59,240
women when it isn't attractive 
to women. 

944
00:48:59,240 --> 00:49:01,560
So there's part of me that 
really hopes they'll suddenly 

945
00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:04,360
realize that and they'll be 
like, Oh no, actually we've, 

946
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:06,720
we've got that wrong. 
Let's start again and like, do 

947
00:49:06,720 --> 00:49:09,960
the cleaning instead. 
That's what women like to hold 

948
00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:11,920
the baby and do the bloody 
cleaning. 

949
00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:18,320
The report from November also 
highlights some really striking 

950
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:21,560
stats. 
So when they found that 63% of 

951
00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:25,280
young men surveyed watch 
masculinity influences, that's a

952
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:31,320
lot. 43% find the motivating, 
27% report feelings of 

953
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:33,040
worthlessness. 
Right. 

954
00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:39,160
From your perspective, does this
kind of content act as a sort 

955
00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:40,560
of? 
Pipeline. 

956
00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:45,200
Into this more extreme content. 
Yeah. 

957
00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:48,400
But I would also say that some 
of that content can be in itself

958
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:51,920
quite extreme depending on what 
the content is like. 

959
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:55,480
For example, extreme kind of 
like versions of like 

960
00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:58,880
optimization, going to the gym 
six days a week, you know, 

961
00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:03,080
building up muscle build, trying
to like use cryptocurrency or 

962
00:50:03,080 --> 00:50:07,240
ways to scam you like to get 
financial like stability, but 

963
00:50:07,240 --> 00:50:09,840
it's not stabilities get rich 
quick scams. 

964
00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:12,360
Actually one of the things I 
used to teach the boys in 

965
00:50:12,720 --> 00:50:15,320
London, but come in the middle 
of like all these different like

966
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:20,240
extremism, very like kind of 
like coded lessons, but this one

967
00:50:20,240 --> 00:50:21,800
would be standing out. 
They'd be like, oh, this is 

968
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:23,000
pretty cool. 
Like I like this. 

969
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:24,960
Like it's kind of fun. 
I get it. 

970
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:28,680
And it's because those are 
exactly the scams that get boys 

971
00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:31,520
involved in places like these 
because there is this kind of 

972
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:34,880
boys more than girls want to get
rich fast. 

973
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:39,080
And that's why those scams will 
use markers to appeal to men, 

974
00:50:39,080 --> 00:50:43,400
like having the Lambo, having 
the plane, having the trip in 

975
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:47,360
Dubai, It's all the same. 
And then basically as they kind 

976
00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:51,320
of like want to get rich, they 
join the scam and it ends up as 

977
00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:53,160
a Ponzi scheme. 
And I taught them what a Ponzi 

978
00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:55,840
scheme is. 
But then it also gets them into 

979
00:50:55,840 --> 00:50:58,680
the ideology. 
And the ideology has misogyny, 

980
00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:02,640
It has often white supremacy. 
It has kind of like this kind of

981
00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:06,240
arrogance about it where people 
are kind of talk to me like 

982
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:10,200
basically horrible people, but 
in the guise of being confident.

983
00:51:10,720 --> 00:51:12,520
And a lot of this is indicators 
of power. 

984
00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:17,280
I mean, in terms of muscular 
power, strength, financial power

985
00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:20,640
and tallness is is often 
domination power. 

986
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:23,520
And just get back on something 
you kind of said there a moment 

987
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:27,120
ago about what women like. 
And women like men holding 

988
00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:29,440
babies. 
It's not about what women likes 

989
00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:32,600
about what men feel men should 
be. 

990
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:35,000
We're not we're not involved in 
this occasion. 

991
00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:38,960
What's in the equation is the 
fact that they feel that they've

992
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:40,960
missing on power that they 
should have had. 

993
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:42,960
They want to be Maverick and Top
Gun. 

994
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:46,320
They don't want to be the stay 
at home dad and you know, the 

995
00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:49,360
funny ROM com. 
They want to be the cool guy. 

996
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:53,560
And then it's like kind of going
back to what is a cool guy. 

997
00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:57,200
Let's go back to 1980s styles of
muscles Rambo. 

998
00:51:57,400 --> 00:52:00,960
Let's look at Donald Trump 
because he is like the leader of

999
00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:03,560
America and he's this way. 
So that's it's pretty cool. 

1000
00:52:03,560 --> 00:52:05,720
Putin, he's pretty strong man 
too. 

1001
00:52:05,920 --> 00:52:08,800
And then you have all these kind
of other versions of what is 

1002
00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:12,920
powerful in a masculine way. 
And that's what they want. 

1003
00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:15,960
They because you know, that's 
and women are a part of the 

1004
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:17,800
power. 
It's having women to have power,

1005
00:52:17,800 --> 00:52:21,720
not having power to have women. 
So it's like having lots of 

1006
00:52:21,720 --> 00:52:24,160
beautiful women around you in a 
yacht is cool. 

1007
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:26,520
And it doesn't matter if they 
like you or not. 

1008
00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:29,800
It's just. 
So it's just so interesting, so 

1009
00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:32,440
interesting. 
And I think I'm just the idea of

1010
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:38,040
finding out what women want from
men online rather than being in 

1011
00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:39,360
the real world and meeting 
women. 

1012
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:41,880
And I think what you said 
earlier was like, they don't 

1013
00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:45,000
have parties anymore. 
And that is so sad. 

1014
00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:48,240
Like, don't you know, some of my
formative years and formative 

1015
00:52:48,240 --> 00:52:52,240
moments were like being 16/17/15
at a house party. 

1016
00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:55,200
And yeah, you're, that's where 
you're figuring out the dynamics

1017
00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:58,200
of how to talk to girls and what
that looks like and what 

1018
00:52:58,200 --> 00:53:01,520
attraction is and what actually 
works in regards to getting a 

1019
00:53:01,520 --> 00:53:03,160
date. 
And yeah, obviously being 

1020
00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:06,360
presentable and and looking, 
looking OK is part of it. 

1021
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:08,200
But it's your charisma, it's 
your jokes, it's your 

1022
00:53:08,480 --> 00:53:09,920
personality. 
It's how you can build a 

1023
00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:11,840
rapport. 
It's how you can like show 

1024
00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:13,560
someone that you're interested 
in the master and the right 

1025
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:15,480
questions. 
And you know, it's that kind of 

1026
00:53:15,480 --> 00:53:17,400
stuff. 
And you can't learn that on the 

1027
00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:20,080
Internet on Reddit. 
Like you have to learn that face

1028
00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:22,520
to face. 
So yeah, we need more parties. 

1029
00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:24,800
That's so sad that. 
You're not having parties. 

1030
00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:28,680
I know another important part of
that is like your son is lucky 

1031
00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:32,720
to have 20 friends on a group 
chat because a lot of boys do 

1032
00:53:32,720 --> 00:53:36,280
not have best friend or not do 
not have a male friend or they 

1033
00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:39,480
don't have a group. 
And that also is striking 

1034
00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:42,000
because I think like as you 
mentioned, with house parties, 

1035
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:45,160
you go there, you know, to date 
and see girls, but you probably 

1036
00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:46,680
took it for granted that you 
were there with all your 

1037
00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:49,440
friends. 
And that, you know, that is a 

1038
00:53:49,440 --> 00:53:52,320
thing that a lot of the insults 
I was speaking to crave 

1039
00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:55,000
sometimes even more than a 
girlfriend, just a guy to hang 

1040
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:58,560
out with on a Sunday and like 
hang when drink beer or maybe 

1041
00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:00,600
they're 17 so go off on a bike 
ride. 

1042
00:54:01,640 --> 00:54:05,000
This is not as common as it used
to be. 

1043
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:08,560
And sometimes the friends, if 
they have any, are online or 

1044
00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:10,720
they're always playing computer 
games and they're kind of bad 

1045
00:54:10,720 --> 00:54:13,760
friends, but they don't have 
that bonding experience. 

1046
00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:16,320
That also helps them to build 
that confidence, to build that 

1047
00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:19,600
self esteem so that they we 
don't end up feeling that 

1048
00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:22,600
resentment. 
Also, guys checking on guys is 

1049
00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:24,480
really important. 
So when someone goes a little 

1050
00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:28,160
bit into the red pill or black 
pill kind of vibe, the friend 

1051
00:54:28,160 --> 00:54:32,280
coming in and kind of setting 
them straight, that is also 

1052
00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:34,720
being missed. 
So there's this really important

1053
00:54:34,720 --> 00:54:38,000
male friendship part. 
Miss one in five teenage boys 

1054
00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:39,960
and young men do not have the 
best friend. 

1055
00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:43,520
And that is, I think, more 
problematic than the girlfriend 

1056
00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:46,200
issue as well. 
Yeah, I would definitely agree 

1057
00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:47,680
with that. 
And I guess, again, it's hard, 

1058
00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:50,000
isn't it? 
All relationships are hard. 

1059
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:54,200
They're worthwhile, but you 
know, even having a best friend 

1060
00:54:54,200 --> 00:54:57,440
can be like, it can come with 
its challenges. 

1061
00:54:57,480 --> 00:55:01,720
You've my my son also had a big 
falling out with his closest 

1062
00:55:01,720 --> 00:55:04,960
friend at school recently. 
They had a big argument and he 

1063
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:08,920
was absolutely devastated. 
Poor kids, like 11 years old. 

1064
00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:12,880
And he was like, you know, I've 
been a bit of the moment about 

1065
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:14,880
it. 
And we sat down and we talked 

1066
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:17,480
through what had happened and 
how to deal with that. 

1067
00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:21,040
And, you know, and not every kid
has like, I don't have parents 

1068
00:55:21,040 --> 00:55:23,520
that will sit with them and talk
through these the child 

1069
00:55:23,520 --> 00:55:26,760
relationship challenges and what
you need to do in order to 

1070
00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:29,640
repair frictions in a 
relationship. 

1071
00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:34,960
And what do you think maybe 
policy makers should do about 

1072
00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:36,840
this? 
Do you think banning social 

1073
00:55:36,840 --> 00:55:39,840
media from to sixteens will help
any of this? 

1074
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:42,520
Or do you think it's not? 
It's not related. 

1075
00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:47,920
Well, obviously social media is 
related, but like in terms of 

1076
00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:52,720
like the banning as a kind of 
solution is, is actually not 

1077
00:55:52,720 --> 00:55:55,800
great because what it does is it
says, well, the social media 

1078
00:55:55,800 --> 00:55:57,880
companies would love it. 
They say, yeah, OK, great, 

1079
00:55:57,880 --> 00:55:59,800
great. 
We'll do the bands when the UK 

1080
00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:02,640
technically under sixteens 
aren't allowed on Instagram, 

1081
00:56:02,640 --> 00:56:06,280
which means technically we don't
have to worry about moderation 

1082
00:56:06,880 --> 00:56:09,560
when it comes to or checking out
if there's any kind of child 

1083
00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:12,680
pornography or you know, like 
grooming going on in Instagram 

1084
00:56:12,680 --> 00:56:17,720
because they're not there there.
So that's the little like 

1085
00:56:17,720 --> 00:56:22,600
loophole that we are concerned 
about, especially as you know, 

1086
00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:26,080
that's why there isn't anyone 
kind of from the social media 

1087
00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:29,640
companies coming out strongly 
against the ban because it kind 

1088
00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:33,440
of works for them. 
Now that's obviously also 

1089
00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:37,520
recognizing that they know they 
are there because what 1616 year

1090
00:56:37,520 --> 00:56:40,120
olds will do or 15 year olds 
will get another account, 

1091
00:56:40,240 --> 00:56:44,240
secretly use AVPN for a country 
that doesn't have a ban and 

1092
00:56:44,240 --> 00:56:47,520
suddenly there's more Irish 
teenagers on Instagram than 

1093
00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:50,960
there are British teenagers and 
using the VPNs to change 

1094
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:52,680
country. 
And that's what happens. 

1095
00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:55,720
So Instagram are aware that they
won't lose their clientele, 

1096
00:56:55,880 --> 00:56:58,120
they'll just see them moving, 
but they don't have to worry 

1097
00:56:58,120 --> 00:57:00,880
about moderation as much, 
especially in the UK landscape. 

1098
00:57:01,080 --> 00:57:04,600
So it's real. 
Cash 22 and banning also doesn't

1099
00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:06,440
seem to have been working in 
Australia. 

1100
00:57:07,200 --> 00:57:11,680
But I think when it comes to 
parents, parents don't have some

1101
00:57:11,680 --> 00:57:13,080
powers and they don't have 
others. 

1102
00:57:13,640 --> 00:57:15,960
I don't think parents are very 
good at influencing teenagers. 

1103
00:57:15,960 --> 00:57:19,800
I don't think I listened to my 
mom once when I was 16 and maybe

1104
00:57:19,800 --> 00:57:22,680
once or twice. 
But I think being really real, 

1105
00:57:22,680 --> 00:57:26,160
we got to be honest about like 
when the influence of kind of, 

1106
00:57:26,200 --> 00:57:29,920
you know, things stop happening.
151617 are those big years. 

1107
00:57:30,560 --> 00:57:34,640
But they have some influence 
when it comes to the technology 

1108
00:57:34,640 --> 00:57:37,880
in the home. 
And they can be, you know, as I 

1109
00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:41,000
said, going through the laptop, 
bringing it to the store down 

1110
00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:45,760
the road, looking through that 
history, the the parental 

1111
00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:47,880
controls won't work because 
they're able to get around them.

1112
00:57:47,880 --> 00:57:51,520
But you can kind of examine the 
the laptop and using your 

1113
00:57:51,520 --> 00:57:55,480
detective hat, asking them 
questions that, you know, kind 

1114
00:57:55,480 --> 00:57:56,760
of are using the Socratic 
method. 

1115
00:57:56,760 --> 00:57:58,600
And I've talked about that with 
parents before. 

1116
00:57:58,720 --> 00:58:01,760
Lighthouse parenting. 
If something goes wrong, come to

1117
00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:04,360
me, I won't be here yelling and 
shouting. 

1118
00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:06,920
I will be here ready to fix the 
problem with you. 

1119
00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:10,440
The last thing I want is you 
having a problem like sex 

1120
00:58:10,440 --> 00:58:13,560
tortion or whatever it might be.
And I've heard of too often now 

1121
00:58:13,800 --> 00:58:16,800
parents going to the room and 
finding their child has, has, 

1122
00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:19,920
has killed themselves because 
that is unfortunately more 

1123
00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:23,480
common now with online harms 
where kids can't manage it, 

1124
00:58:23,520 --> 00:58:26,120
especially sex tortion, where 
they freak out. 

1125
00:58:26,120 --> 00:58:28,320
They don't think their parents 
are going to be OK with it. 

1126
00:58:28,520 --> 00:58:30,920
They're too afraid and too, you 
know, to go to that. 

1127
00:58:31,280 --> 00:58:34,720
And that's what the outcome, the
stress brain does and they freak

1128
00:58:34,720 --> 00:58:35,560
out. 
This is all I can do. 

1129
00:58:36,000 --> 00:58:39,640
So sad because a lot of these 
kids parents say I would have 

1130
00:58:39,640 --> 00:58:41,920
helped them, but I would have 
done anything. 

1131
00:58:41,920 --> 00:58:43,760
I know we come from a 
conservative religious 

1132
00:58:43,760 --> 00:58:45,120
background. 
I know we're conservative 

1133
00:58:45,120 --> 00:58:47,560
parents, but I would have done 
anything. 

1134
00:58:48,000 --> 00:58:52,000
But it's about kind of showing 
that to your kids that if things

1135
00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:54,320
go wrong on the Internet, come 
to me. 

1136
00:58:54,560 --> 00:58:57,160
I don't care what it is, if 
you've committed a crime, if 

1137
00:58:57,280 --> 00:58:58,960
someone's committed a crime 
against you, if you've done 

1138
00:58:58,960 --> 00:59:02,480
something you're ashamed of, 
calm to me because that's where 

1139
00:59:02,480 --> 00:59:04,680
we can have that kind of open 
parenting. 

1140
00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:07,520
And then it's about, yeah, 
conversations as well. 

1141
00:59:08,200 --> 00:59:10,920
And that's better than balance. 
I feel that's all we have. 

1142
00:59:11,080 --> 00:59:13,440
And it's good. 
It's a good tool as well to have

1143
00:59:13,440 --> 00:59:17,240
that conversations, yeah. 
Yeah, I always say that to my 

1144
00:59:17,240 --> 00:59:19,080
kids. 
No matter what you've done, you 

1145
00:59:19,080 --> 00:59:21,520
can always come to me and I 
promise I won't be angry. 

1146
00:59:21,520 --> 00:59:23,840
I will still love you. 
I'll just be there to help you 

1147
00:59:24,200 --> 00:59:27,280
and say if somebody even is 
telling you that they're going 

1148
00:59:27,280 --> 00:59:31,040
to hurt you because you tell 
somebody, you must still come to

1149
00:59:31,040 --> 00:59:32,720
us. 
We also keep screens at 

1150
00:59:32,720 --> 00:59:35,440
bedrooms. 
No screens bedrooms, which is 

1151
00:59:35,440 --> 00:59:38,400
hard actually, because as they 
get old, got homework to do and 

1152
00:59:38,400 --> 00:59:41,040
they want a private space to be 
able to do that. 

1153
00:59:41,120 --> 00:59:44,200
We're just, we're sticking to it
so far. 

1154
00:59:44,320 --> 00:59:49,000
So yeah, that does help. 
Is there anything else you think

1155
00:59:49,000 --> 00:59:52,360
policymakers should be doing? 
Anything, any other changes or 

1156
00:59:52,360 --> 00:59:55,440
laws that we can bring in that 
would help it? 

1157
00:59:55,440 --> 01:00:00,360
Is really tricky because I think
it's about in they were we work 

1158
01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:02,920
in a world where this 
international kind of law as 

1159
01:00:02,920 --> 01:00:04,560
well. 
So like transnational companies 

1160
01:00:04,560 --> 01:00:08,640
like Facebook or, you know, 
Roblox or whatever it might be. 

1161
01:00:09,280 --> 01:00:11,440
They were kind of in their own 
world. 

1162
01:00:11,440 --> 01:00:14,200
And while you can regulate them 
a little bit in your own 

1163
01:00:14,200 --> 01:00:16,560
country, you also have to be 
careful. 

1164
01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:19,360
Like for example, there was 
something done, I think where 

1165
01:00:19,360 --> 01:00:22,760
they try to regulate, I think it
was the Sweden or somewhere like

1166
01:00:22,760 --> 01:00:24,560
that. 
And, and, and they try to 

1167
01:00:24,560 --> 01:00:27,800
regulate a video game so that 
children were only chatting to 

1168
01:00:27,840 --> 01:00:30,600
other young children of their 
age group. 

1169
01:00:30,680 --> 01:00:33,360
But because they were the only 
country doing that, there's 

1170
01:00:33,360 --> 01:00:35,760
enough like a bunch of little 
Swedish teenagers were all on 

1171
01:00:35,760 --> 01:00:38,360
their own and they couldn't find
anyone to play with because 

1172
01:00:38,360 --> 01:00:40,280
they're all the rest of the 
world, world doesn't wasn't on 

1173
01:00:40,280 --> 01:00:42,600
the same regulation. 
So they were kind of like, oh 

1174
01:00:42,600 --> 01:00:44,080
gosh, this game has gotten 
terrible. 

1175
01:00:44,080 --> 01:00:46,600
I have nowhere to play with. 
So now that we're bringing in 

1176
01:00:46,600 --> 01:00:49,520
more kind of like consistent 
regulation throughout like the 

1177
01:00:49,520 --> 01:00:53,360
EU and Britain and the US, we 
can start to kind of make kind 

1178
01:00:53,360 --> 01:00:57,720
of consistent laws around it. 
But there will always be on 

1179
01:00:57,720 --> 01:01:01,480
moderated sites, like there will
always be websites run by people

1180
01:01:01,480 --> 01:01:04,600
who are mad people in extremist 
country or not country who are 

1181
01:01:04,600 --> 01:01:08,480
extremists in countries that we 
can't get to or we can't, you 

1182
01:01:08,480 --> 01:01:10,200
know, regulate. 
So there will always be the neo 

1183
01:01:10,200 --> 01:01:12,040
Nazi site, there will always be 
an insult site, there will 

1184
01:01:12,040 --> 01:01:15,200
always be something. 
But it's about making it harder 

1185
01:01:15,200 --> 01:01:18,160
to find. 
And that is where we can talk 

1186
01:01:18,160 --> 01:01:20,880
about what it means to have 
consistent patterns of 

1187
01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:23,560
regulation and using current 
expert advice. 

1188
01:01:24,280 --> 01:01:26,800
And yeah, I don't know, I it's 
really difficult. 

1189
01:01:26,800 --> 01:01:30,680
I wish I I'd not jealous of 
usually raising a son right now,

1190
01:01:30,680 --> 01:01:33,640
but it seems like you're doing 
everything like I often tell 

1191
01:01:33,640 --> 01:01:37,800
parents to do, which I think 
sends a really good message. 

1192
01:01:38,320 --> 01:01:41,480
And it also sends the message 
for those kids feel just kind of

1193
01:01:41,480 --> 01:01:45,240
more confident in being online 
and more confident also, you 

1194
01:01:45,240 --> 01:01:47,720
know, to not do the thing that 
might get them in trouble. 

1195
01:01:48,560 --> 01:01:51,960
More kind of eyes open because 
if you don't talk about anything

1196
01:01:51,960 --> 01:01:56,720
at home at all, suddenly, you 
know, it's very much wild, Wild 

1197
01:01:56,720 --> 01:02:00,360
West and, and being naive in it.
So you don't want to be naive. 

1198
01:02:00,680 --> 01:02:04,040
So you've trained them to even 
be aware of different things. 

1199
01:02:04,040 --> 01:02:06,400
The fact that someone can 
threaten them to kill them is 

1200
01:02:06,400 --> 01:02:07,960
something that you've kind of 
already told them. 

1201
01:02:07,960 --> 01:02:11,360
So now, But if you didn't know 
that, that's terrifying. 

1202
01:02:12,120 --> 01:02:14,320
So yeah, exactly that kind of 
conversation. 

1203
01:02:14,920 --> 01:02:17,400
Yeah, I mean, I'm very lucky 
that I do podcasts where I get 

1204
01:02:17,400 --> 01:02:20,840
to talk about and learn how to 
be a good parent of my boys. 

1205
01:02:21,640 --> 01:02:26,040
And finally, after spending so 
much time studying these 

1206
01:02:26,040 --> 01:02:30,400
communities online, do you feel 
like it's had a negative impact 

1207
01:02:30,400 --> 01:02:32,080
on the way that you view boys 
and men? 

1208
01:02:32,080 --> 01:02:36,760
It must have had an impact on 
you personally and how you you 

1209
01:02:36,760 --> 01:02:40,880
men in your life. 
Oh, actually not at all. 

1210
01:02:40,880 --> 01:02:43,560
I suppose like because I went 
into the world of extremism, 

1211
01:02:44,520 --> 01:02:47,080
I've always been interested and 
I don't want to use the word 

1212
01:02:47,080 --> 01:02:50,560
underdog to kind of just like 
talk about them, but I've always

1213
01:02:50,560 --> 01:02:53,840
been interested in people who've
gone down these paths of kind of

1214
01:02:53,840 --> 01:02:57,560
like extreme ideology. 
Now, I also was very lucky to 

1215
01:02:57,560 --> 01:03:00,080
work for an organization when I 
started called Life After Hate 

1216
01:03:00,080 --> 01:03:04,200
based in America, which was run 
by former extremists, neo Nazis.

1217
01:03:04,560 --> 01:03:08,720
And I was able to learn that 
people can come out of these 

1218
01:03:08,720 --> 01:03:12,480
really rigid and and hateful 
beliefs and they can come out as

1219
01:03:12,680 --> 01:03:15,680
the best people you've ever met.
Some of the most kindest and 

1220
01:03:15,680 --> 01:03:18,400
most open people I've met have 
been former extremists. 

1221
01:03:18,680 --> 01:03:22,480
So learning that people really 
can change and see the light. 

1222
01:03:23,320 --> 01:03:26,720
It also helps when I see 
especially young kids who I 

1223
01:03:26,720 --> 01:03:29,200
don't see as you know, they're 
saying the worst things you can 

1224
01:03:29,200 --> 01:03:32,040
ever hear on the Internet. 
But when you start to talk to 

1225
01:03:32,040 --> 01:03:35,160
them one-on-one, you also 
realize they're 18 and probably 

1226
01:03:35,160 --> 01:03:38,080
have a huge a lot of issues 
behind them. 

1227
01:03:38,280 --> 01:03:40,240
And they're not these big scary 
monsters. 

1228
01:03:40,240 --> 01:03:42,520
They're not Ted Bundy on the 
other side of the phone. 

1229
01:03:42,760 --> 01:03:46,280
They're, you know, Liam who just
hasn't gone to school in two 

1230
01:03:46,280 --> 01:03:49,120
years and is really nervous and 
does know himself. 

1231
01:03:49,480 --> 01:03:51,680
It's not, it's not a scary 
monster. 

1232
01:03:51,680 --> 01:03:54,800
It's usually a very broken 
person who's gone down a very 

1233
01:03:54,800 --> 01:03:57,800
twisted Rd. 
That is not to excuse if they've

1234
01:03:57,800 --> 01:04:00,600
done something or if they've 
committed a crime. 

1235
01:04:00,600 --> 01:04:04,440
And that's for the nuance wise, 
absolutely, but it is to 

1236
01:04:04,440 --> 01:04:05,960
understand. 
And we also have to see children

1237
01:04:05,960 --> 01:04:08,080
as children. 
Like I, I say, if they're under 

1238
01:04:08,080 --> 01:04:11,520
18, they are a child. 
They sure they're saying things 

1239
01:04:11,520 --> 01:04:14,840
that you wouldn't want to say 
ever in your life, but they are 

1240
01:04:14,840 --> 01:04:17,080
a child and you can't pick and 
choose who a child is. 

1241
01:04:17,080 --> 01:04:20,080
And even when they're 21, 
sometimes maturity levels is 

1242
01:04:20,080 --> 01:04:22,280
really low because maybe they 
are nerd divergent. 

1243
01:04:22,440 --> 01:04:25,360
Maybe they have had issues that 
are unsupported and maybe their 

1244
01:04:25,360 --> 01:04:29,080
way of seeing the world is a lot
closer to someone who was 1415 

1245
01:04:29,320 --> 01:04:31,800
than someone who's 21. 
And, and it's about 

1246
01:04:31,800 --> 01:04:34,440
understanding that individual 
and, and where they're coming 

1247
01:04:34,440 --> 01:04:37,280
from. 
So no, no, it's made me see them

1248
01:04:37,280 --> 01:04:41,000
very much as human. 
I'm actually sorry. 

1249
01:04:41,000 --> 01:04:43,320
One more thing on that, we don't
have a lot of media 

1250
01:04:43,320 --> 01:04:46,560
representations of men who are 
emotional and that's one of the 

1251
01:04:46,560 --> 01:04:49,240
reasons that insults go down the
road of anger because there's a 

1252
01:04:49,240 --> 01:04:52,600
lot of them said to me, it's not
manly to feel sad, but it is 

1253
01:04:52,600 --> 01:04:55,480
pretty manly to feel angry. 
When you're sad, you get angry. 

1254
01:04:55,680 --> 01:04:58,240
It's power, it's control. 
It's I'm not hurt. 

1255
01:04:58,440 --> 01:05:01,040
I'm the one who hurts, I'm the 
one who knocks. 

1256
01:05:01,280 --> 01:05:05,400
That's been the masculine image.
So that's kind of been the 

1257
01:05:05,400 --> 01:05:08,400
reason why they're so overt in 
their anger on these forums 

1258
01:05:08,400 --> 01:05:12,760
because that's them, that's them
being very sad, but being very 

1259
01:05:12,760 --> 01:05:14,160
angry. 
And then when you talk to 

1260
01:05:14,160 --> 01:05:17,480
someone, one, it's about kind of
like seeing now suddenly they're

1261
01:05:17,480 --> 01:05:18,560
broke. 
They're, you know, they're 

1262
01:05:18,560 --> 01:05:20,640
normal. 
They're they're saying, my dad 

1263
01:05:20,640 --> 01:05:22,320
died three years ago. 
I've been lost. 

1264
01:05:22,320 --> 01:05:24,440
I don't know what to do. 
Like I can't say that to 

1265
01:05:24,440 --> 01:05:26,440
anybody. 
So there's a lot of hurt. 

1266
01:05:26,880 --> 01:05:30,560
And it's about seeing that, that
men feel very trapped 

1267
01:05:30,560 --> 01:05:34,720
emotionally and still in this 
world and that this anger is 

1268
01:05:34,720 --> 01:05:37,440
their way of screaming, 
sometimes in pain. 

1269
01:05:37,720 --> 01:05:39,600
And that's when you see it that 
way. 

1270
01:05:39,600 --> 01:05:43,040
It doesn't become as scary area 
as it used to be, but it does 

1271
01:05:43,040 --> 01:05:47,160
become a problem to be fixed. 
And it is police that behaviour 

1272
01:05:47,160 --> 01:05:52,680
by so many people, boys crying, 
boys showing emotion is I've 

1273
01:05:52,680 --> 01:05:55,400
seen it in schools, I've seen it
from teachers, I've seen it from

1274
01:05:55,400 --> 01:05:59,280
other adults, you know, towards 
boys who might best into tears, 

1275
01:05:59,280 --> 01:06:03,120
you know, a very sort of 
dismissive and like it's 

1276
01:06:03,200 --> 01:06:06,280
uncomfortable cry because you're
a boy. 

1277
01:06:08,400 --> 01:06:12,400
Maeve, your book is brilliant. 
Please, everybody go out and buy

1278
01:06:12,400 --> 01:06:14,120
it. 
It's called Black pilled by 

1279
01:06:14,120 --> 01:06:17,760
Maeve Park. 
And I think every parent should 

1280
01:06:17,760 --> 01:06:20,560
really understand what is going 
on in these communities. 

1281
01:06:20,560 --> 01:06:26,600
I think it's imperative that we 
have a good grasp of when to be 

1282
01:06:26,600 --> 01:06:32,320
heading into down a rabbit hole 
that is really worrying for for 

1283
01:06:32,320 --> 01:06:36,280
them and for society because, 
you know, we've got we've got to

1284
01:06:36,280 --> 01:06:40,120
be aware of the wise. 
It's not that's not good 

1285
01:06:40,120 --> 01:06:43,680
parenting, is it? 
So by Maeve's book, I'd, I'd 

1286
01:06:43,680 --> 01:06:45,800
really enjoy you to start 
understanding this issue. 

1287
01:06:46,360 --> 01:06:49,160
Maeve, thank you. 
Thank you so much. 

1288
01:06:49,280 --> 01:06:54,520
I mean, it is amazing how much 
you've done and how 

1289
01:06:54,520 --> 01:06:57,680
knowledgeable you are. 
And every single word of what 

1290
01:06:57,680 --> 01:06:59,640
you said, I think will be a 
lesson to all of this. 

1291
01:06:59,640 --> 01:07:01,280
I've learned so much from this 
interview. 

1292
01:07:01,280 --> 01:07:03,600
So thank you very much for 
taking the time to join us 

1293
01:07:03,600 --> 01:07:04,000
today. 
Oh. 

1294
01:07:04,600 --> 01:07:05,960
No problem is brilliant being 
here. 

1295
01:07:05,960 --> 01:07:07,560
There's so much room to ask me 
on.