1 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:09,920 Hello and welcome to To Be a Boy with Me, Jolie Braley. 2 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:13,160 I'm me, Elliot Ray. So today we're going to be 3 00:00:13,160 --> 00:00:18,040 talking about an article in British Vogue by Shante Joseph 4 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:22,560 called Is Having a Boyfriend Embarrassing Now. 5 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:27,120 And this article's been out for, it's been out for a few weeks 6 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:29,880 now, I think. And it's sort of picked up pace. 7 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:32,400 Lots of people have been talking about it. 8 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:34,920 It's got attention. It was written in British Vogue. 9 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:38,120 Shante Joseph is a British writer. 10 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:44,760 And it's been published, I think, in 20 odd countries now. 11 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:49,480 Shante was on CNN talking about it. 12 00:00:49,920 --> 00:00:55,240 It seems to have really hit a nerve with a lot of people and 13 00:00:55,240 --> 00:00:58,560 we thought it would be a really interesting topic for this 14 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:01,080 podcaster. Nelliot and I would like to chew 15 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:07,120 the fat a bit on it. So I'm going to, I'll, I'm going 16 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:10,000 to have a little go at a little summary of what it made me. 17 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:16,360 Think going. The thing I took away from it 18 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:20,920 actually is that I mean it. Firstly, Shantae Joseph, I 19 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:24,200 think, is an amazing, amazing writer. 20 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:32,640 She has this knack of hitting on something very current and doing 21 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:37,040 it in a way that is so accessible and always fun. 22 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:39,560 She's a she, you know, she's just a fun human. 23 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:42,160 You can tell she's a fun human, but she makes everything really 24 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:44,520 accessible. And yet what she's talking about 25 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:49,320 has so many layers, and it's really complicated and nuanced. 26 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:52,480 And that's one of the reasons why I think this has really 27 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:57,160 taken off is because it's made people really reflect on lots of 28 00:01:57,160 --> 00:02:00,320 different aspects of male and female heterosexual 29 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:03,560 relationships. And, you know, we've been 30 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:07,120 talking for a long time about the fact that heterosexual 31 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:10,000 relationships don't always work for women. 32 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:13,280 In the vast majority of cases, they're more unhappy in a 33 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:16,400 heterosexual relationship. They don't live as long. 34 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:19,680 I heard Scott Galloway saying on something this morning that the 35 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:27,400 research shows that when a widower's husband dies, she 36 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:31,640 actually is happier after he's died than she was when she was 37 00:02:31,640 --> 00:02:36,000 married to him. And then so, you know, we have 38 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:39,560 known for quite some time that relationships aren't necessarily 39 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:42,240 working for women the way that they are working for men. 40 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:47,320 And so the first thing I thought when reading this is, come on, 41 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:49,840 women. Like you're kicking back against 42 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:54,480 the thing that lots of women of my generation have pushed to one 43 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:56,720 side and pretended isn't happening. 44 00:02:57,040 --> 00:02:59,680 And you're saying enough now. I'm not going to stand for this. 45 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:03,040 Yeah, so did. Did you feel, were you, were you 46 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:06,600 celebrating the article, were you celebrating the idea or did 47 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:12,000 you also feel sad as well? I felt both of those things at 48 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:16,440 the same time, somewhat. Part of me felt proud of women 49 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:19,120 for not standing for this anymore. 50 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:24,360 And then another part of me, you know, I'm raising boys as well, 51 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:26,400 so I have a personal investment in this. 52 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:34,200 Another part of me felt deeply sad about the fact that we are 53 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:38,480 being driven further and further apart, men and women, and that 54 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:43,720 we seem to have got to a position where we are blaming 55 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:46,920 each other for lots of our problems. 56 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:52,040 And I think that is also part of why this article exists is 57 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:55,080 because it's not just about the fact that relationships aren't 58 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:57,520 working for women. It's about the fact that men and 59 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:00,920 women are getting really good at blaming each other and making 60 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:03,400 each other the enemy. And we're not each other's 61 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:07,480 enemy. We need to find better ways to 62 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:10,760 work together to find solutions to many of the problems that 63 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:14,120 we're experiencing. So what did you think about age? 64 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:17,000 Because obviously we are, I don't want to say mature, but 65 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:18,800 we've lived a little bit of life, right? 66 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:22,120 We've lived life. Experienced might be a better 67 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:24,000 word. What do you think in regards to 68 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:31,160 how this article resonates, translates to different women at 69 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:36,480 different stages of their lives? For example, what is the impact 70 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:39,720 or feeling on younger women who are maybe just finishing 71 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:44,120 university, early 20s, just starting to date? 72 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:49,040 Is there a difference between how this article resonates with 73 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:52,320 them to someone who is in their 40s? 74 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:54,400 We have a partner and a couple of kids. 75 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:57,160 Oh definitely. There would be some women my age 76 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:02,160 who won't understand it because when I was younger it definitely 77 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:08,120 felt that having you were worthless without a partner. 78 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:11,800 There was. And I know that when I in my 79 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:16,520 30s, I broke up with somebody and I thought, oh, I'm going to 80 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:19,560 end up lonely. No, nobody's going to want to be 81 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:20,480 with me. That's it. 82 00:05:20,840 --> 00:05:24,640 You know, I'm sort of on the rubbish pile now. 83 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:27,960 I'm going to be a spinster and oh, like there's nothing worse 84 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:28,760 than that. How? 85 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:34,680 You know, nobody wants me. And I look back on that now and 86 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:37,480 think, Oh my word, what was I doing? 87 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:44,800 Why did I think that that you were definitely you had you, it 88 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:46,920 was projected onto you by others. 89 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:49,880 And I remember people saying, oh, well, you know, you could 90 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:54,200 just marry somebody who will have some money and they're so 91 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:57,120 don't you don't need to worry about it too much, you know, as 92 00:05:57,120 --> 00:05:59,440 if, you know, that partnership was all that should really 93 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:03,080 matter to me. I don't think girls growing up 94 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:06,160 have that same messaging. I think that messaging is 95 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:07,960 different. So their experience of 96 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:10,080 relationships is is different from mine. 97 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:14,280 I mean, I don't know many girls, you know more than me growing 98 00:06:14,280 --> 00:06:17,560 up. And then I have very few 99 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:20,640 interactions with teenage girls at all, sadly. 100 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:22,560 I'd love to, I'd love to talk to more. 101 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:26,400 So, yeah, I mean, I, I don't know what they're thinking, but 102 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:29,880 I would expect that the messaging they're getting from 103 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:34,000 society and from their parents is not one day you will get 104 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:35,560 married and you will have children. 105 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:39,080 The messaging is more sisters can do it for themselves. 106 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:41,840 You know, like you don't need a man. 107 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:45,040 You're going to be OK. A man is a nice addition to your 108 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:49,680 life, you know, if if you're heterosexual, but it's not a 109 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:51,760 necessity. Whereas it felt like that for 110 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:55,280 me. Yeah, yeah. 111 00:06:55,360 --> 00:07:00,200 So listeners, I'm going to speak my thoughts on this, but please 112 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:04,520 don't cancel me because I am very, very conscious that I'm a 113 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:10,200 man and I don't really make a habit of trying to tell women 114 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:15,160 how to feel. But I'm going to talk about some 115 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:17,640 of the thoughts that I've had since. 116 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:22,080 So let me start on reflecting on acknowledging that, yes, I think 117 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:25,320 as you said, relationships and marriages, long term 118 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:27,720 partnerships are much better for men. 119 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:34,200 Like, I think we live longer and women live shorter, so there's 120 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:38,840 obviously something going wrong there and there is obviously 121 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:43,800 something we need to, as society and also individuals, unpick and 122 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:47,080 work through to make our relationships as a whole just 123 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:49,480 work better for women and for everybody. 124 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:51,920 So acknowledging that. But I was thinking in this 125 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:58,560 narrative, is it another example of telling women what they 126 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:00,000 should do and what they should be? 127 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:05,720 Because I feel like years ago it was you're shamed if you're not 128 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:08,680 married with children at this age. 129 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:13,680 And then now it's like it's embarrassing if you've got a 130 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:17,680 boyfriend. So it's another version of this 131 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:18,960 is how you should live your life. 132 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:22,880 And I also thought about where's that embarrassment coming from? 133 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:26,600 Because I don't think it's coming from men like I, I'm 134 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:29,440 assuming here the women that are embarrassed about having a 135 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:33,960 boyfriend. I'm not embarrassed by men 136 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:36,240 looking at their social media and thinking they've got a 137 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:38,960 boyfriend. So it's coming from men. 138 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:42,400 I think they're embarrassed or they feel like other women are 139 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:43,840 judging them for having a boyfriend. 140 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:52,440 And so is this another version of telling women how they should 141 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:56,080 be living their lives versus you can just be whatever you want to 142 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:57,200 be. And if that works for you, then 143 00:08:57,200 --> 00:08:59,920 that's OK. I think that's a really 144 00:08:59,920 --> 00:09:03,360 interesting thought. I guess when you push back 145 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:08,280 against anything that's had to like anything that's culturally 146 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:14,200 normalized, you tend to go to another extreme before you find 147 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:17,040 a middle ground. And I wonder if that's what's 148 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:23,440 happening here, that younger women are going, screw that for 149 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:25,960 a bag of peanuts. I'm not having any of it. 150 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:29,600 And they're going completely the other way to the absolute 151 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:32,960 extreme that they can. And eventually we'll come back 152 00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:37,600 to the middle, which will hopefully be a place where we 153 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:41,720 can find more equality in relationships than what we've 154 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:46,880 had historically. So I think yes, it, you know, 155 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:50,880 it, it could be another form of telling women what they should 156 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:53,360 and shouldn't be doing and women policing other women. 157 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:56,920 We're really good at doing that, really good at policing each 158 00:09:56,920 --> 00:10:01,280 other. And that's not healthy or 159 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:06,160 helpful. But I do think that something 160 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:09,200 did need to change that relationships couldn't carry on 161 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:11,080 the way they have been doing. And we've been having the 162 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:16,520 conversation for a while about unpaid labour, in particular 163 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:21,880 women doing the vast majority of the unpaid labour and it's still 164 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:28,200 very little is changing. We know in the UK that women do 165 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:33,040 almost one hour per day more of the unpaid labour compared to 166 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:34,960 men. That's data from the Office of 167 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:37,320 National Statistics and that doesn't include the emotional 168 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:39,360 labour and it doesn't include the mental labour. 169 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:44,000 And I do think for some women, they're recognizing that you get 170 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:48,360 into a relationship and you essentially giving over your 171 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:51,880 time and energy to somebody else rather than yourself. 172 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:54,920 And women tend to in relationships give their whole 173 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:59,440 selves and then beg for crumbs of the please just give me 174 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:03,200 something a little bit of love and not cut that just couldn't 175 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:04,600 continue. Yeah. 176 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:09,800 And two positions that I was considering is are some people 177 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:16,640 reading it and their take away is they are against the concept 178 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:19,200 of having a boyfriend. Like, you know, the men, men are 179 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:21,440 trash kind of movement narrative. 180 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:23,080 Yeah. Is it? 181 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:26,200 And I think it's both. I think it's partly the concept 182 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:30,600 of having a boyfriend or a partner is corny and goes 183 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:35,320 against a lot of women's values as a whole, politics, I would 184 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:39,320 say, as a whole. But also there's the individual. 185 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:42,120 Like I know a lot of women have posted their boyfriend on social 186 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:44,320 media and that boyfriend's has another girlfriend. 187 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:48,360 So it's like that particular boyfriend is going to embarrass 188 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:49,360 me. And what what? 189 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:52,880 Zoran Mamdani responded. He was asked about the article, 190 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:55,640 the new New York mayor, and someone asked him about the 191 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:57,480 article. And he said, you know, if your 192 00:11:57,480 --> 00:11:59,240 boyfriend's embarrassing you, you should probably find a new 193 00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:00,760 boyfriend. Yeah. 194 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:02,400 And I thought that was interesting because I think that 195 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:07,320 talks to the whole, yes, some men are not good, right? 196 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:09,320 Some boyfriends are not good, some girlfriends are not good. 197 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:10,880 But in this instance, some boyfriends are not good. 198 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:16,360 And so we, I guess we have to be careful about introducing people 199 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:19,800 onto our social media and standing next to them because 200 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:26,200 that is inviting them into our life as part of our identity. 201 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:29,800 And that footprint as we know now doesn't go away. 202 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:32,400 We can delete the picture, but someone's going to screenshot it 203 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:36,320 and save that picture. So that person is potentially in 204 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:41,000 your life story now forever with social media. 205 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:47,440 And I think there is definitely something to be said for getting 206 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:52,880 to a level of trust as much as you can with that person before 207 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:56,240 you do that. So my wife and I, we met in a 208 00:12:56,240 --> 00:13:02,280 band many moons ago now, 2008, and Instagram wasn't around like 209 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:06,160 it is now, but Facebook was around and she was very careful 210 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:09,840 about not announcing our relationship to the point where 211 00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:12,120 we were doing gigs. We were like touring the UK, do 212 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:14,480 lots of stuff, right? People didn't know we were 213 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:17,960 together until we put up our one year wedding anniversary picture 214 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:22,720 on Facebook. She waited until a year after 215 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:23,440 you were married. She. 216 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:27,840 Waited until our first anniversary of our wedding to be 217 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:30,040 like, yeah, this guy's all right. 218 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:34,600 I accept him now. Oh, that is brilliant. 219 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:40,760 For me, I, I wasn't too bothered, like I probably would 220 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:44,200 have introduced earlier, but you know, I'm not a massive picture 221 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:46,400 taker anyway. So it didn't, it didn't, didn't 222 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:48,040 bother me either way. And I was, you know, I didn't 223 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:50,400 care and I was like, we're, but we're happy in our relationship. 224 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:52,280 I don't really care if people don't know. 225 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:55,040 And actually it was quite nice that people didn't know because 226 00:13:55,960 --> 00:13:59,680 we could turn up as professionals and they weren't 227 00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:02,960 then like looking at us as a couple. 228 00:14:02,960 --> 00:14:06,400 They were just looking at us as band mates and we were working 229 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:08,800 together. And so for that actually worked 230 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:10,200 quite well and it was quite good. 231 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:12,480 But I remember we posted the picture and some people were 232 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:14,400 like, what the hell, You guys are together? 233 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:17,160 I've known you for like 8 years, you're married. 234 00:14:17,680 --> 00:14:20,000 And then some people were like, congratulations on your wedding. 235 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:23,240 Like this was a year ago. So you weren't invited. 236 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:28,120 But you know, and so I do think there's something in, in keeping 237 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:31,040 that quiet, like protecting your relationship, you know, like not 238 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:33,080 everything has to be out there for a variety of different 239 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:35,320 reasons. It may be because it's very new 240 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:36,760 and you don't know that person yet. 241 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:40,800 It may be, you know, a lot of people believe in evil eye and 242 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:43,000 people looking at their relationship and wishing bad on 243 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:44,520 it and stuff like that. Some that's some people's 244 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:45,720 beliefs. So there's that too. 245 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:50,280 But the bigger thing I took from the article was more about I 246 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:54,840 think a lot of a lot of views and politics now, a lot of 247 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:58,760 narrative that I think has been prevalent over the last few 248 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:03,240 years for women has been a lot around independence. 249 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:06,880 Obviously recognizing, as you said, all the negative 250 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:10,000 statistics around relationships or the negative things that men 251 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:14,800 do or don't do in a relationship and the freedom to be able to be 252 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:19,080 single and not be partnered up, which is great. 253 00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:23,520 And we should celebrate that. And I think there are some like 254 00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:27,760 influencers who who feature in the article or have spoken 255 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:31,720 around the article who have built their brand, if you like, 256 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:36,520 on being, I don't want to say a feminist because I think that's 257 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:42,400 too, too narrow, but being quite anti man and building their 258 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:48,680 narrative on Galbos. And I've kind of made it on my 259 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:52,160 own, you know. And so the concepts then of 260 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:55,400 being partnered up doesn't match because if my narrative to 261 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:57,840 everyone else is you can do it on your own, you can be 262 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:01,120 independent, yeah, men are trash or we just don't really need 263 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:04,120 them anymore. And let's do it together as as 264 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:05,800 girls and as women. Cool. 265 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:12,240 Then having a boyfriend who may pay half the mortgage, who may 266 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:14,840 have paid for that deny, who may have supported you emotionally 267 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:17,440 and mentally and physically as good partners. 268 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:21,280 Do I think part of that is then taking away from the narrative 269 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:23,720 of I did. I did this by myself and I think 270 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:26,440 that was 1 influencer who was commented either that article or 271 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:30,000 another article that I read who said they didn't want to tell 272 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:33,160 their followers they had a boyfriend because they would 273 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:36,200 then be seen as they haven't achieved their success by 274 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:38,600 themselves. So I think there's this kind of 275 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:43,360 idea of real success is that you you've done it by yourself and 276 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:45,720 if a man's helped you, that's corny and it kind of takes away 277 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:51,360 from your value if you like. And then also the original point 278 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:57,320 in regards to as a concept, I don't really like men right now. 279 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:00,080 Well, I found this one individual man who's actually 280 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:03,680 OK, but then can I introduce that one individual man into my 281 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:08,720 life when I've been selling the idea of we don't like men as a 282 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:10,200 concept? Yeah. 283 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:12,880 Have you heard of the term hetro fatalism? 284 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:17,720 Yes, this is new to me, but I read what it meant. 285 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:21,040 It's a term for the feeling of resignation and frustration that 286 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:25,119 heterosexual relationships are often doomed to fail, yet people 287 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:28,480 continue to engage in them. It describes the emotional 288 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:32,560 exhaustion and hopelessness that some straight women feel about 289 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:35,880 dating men, characterised by a deep seated disappointment with 290 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:40,920 men's behaviour coupled with a continued, often weary pursuit 291 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:43,160 of romantic connection with them. 292 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:46,920 Which I'm so elated that somebody coined it. 293 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:50,720 But when I looked up, like common expressions of what 294 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:54,640 heterophatalism would be, every single one of them rang true for 295 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:59,000 me and my female friends. So making jokes about men are 296 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:03,760 trash, but still swiping right on dating apps, like amongst 297 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,280 women when we're all together, you know it. 298 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:08,960 You know you're going to get a laugh if you make a joke about a 299 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:13,320 man being useless or rubbish. Everyone will chuckle along 300 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:16,640 lamenting one's attraction to men with shame or embarrassment. 301 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:22,560 Yes, like any women I know that are single in particular are 302 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:25,240 like, oh God. And you know, and it says 303 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:28,280 fantasizing about queer relationships as a way to escape 304 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:30,400 the emotional labor of heterosexual ones. 305 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:35,200 Yes, like the number of women I know that say God I wish I was a 306 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:42,320 lesbian. Feeling a sense of futility in 307 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:45,600 dating because of repeated disappointments and mismatched 308 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:49,120 expectations and a feeling of being stuck in a cycle of dating 309 00:18:49,120 --> 00:18:52,600 because of the deep desire for a romantic connection despite the 310 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:57,520 perceived futility of it all. Absolutely true for me and my 311 00:18:57,520 --> 00:18:59,440 female friends. And none of those jokes you 312 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:01,640 would make in front of men, We keep them. 313 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:05,000 You know, when the women are together, we say things, they 314 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:07,200 just roll off the tongue and stuff like that. 315 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:10,120 And I think that's the same for all women when they're together. 316 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:16,000 And so I think this has been happening, this move away from 317 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:19,120 it being cool to have a boyfriend for quite a while 318 00:19:19,120 --> 00:19:21,720 behind closed doors. And now we're seeing it 319 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:25,520 translate into social media and the way that people are hiding 320 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:27,600 boyfriends. I also, I mean, I think the 321 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:29,760 social media aspect is really interesting because I think 322 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:32,440 social media has had an impact on so much of our behaviour. 323 00:19:32,440 --> 00:19:37,360 When I was like 1920, all I did was get drunk almost constantly. 324 00:19:37,360 --> 00:19:39,880 I'm not like celebrating that and telling people it's cool, 325 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:42,200 but that's what I did. I was in the pub all the time 326 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:45,120 drinking. And now you go past universities 327 00:19:45,120 --> 00:19:48,040 and all the bars have closed and nobody's really doing that 328 00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:50,000 anymore. And I think partly that's 329 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:53,400 because firstly they seem to be a far healthier generation, but 330 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:56,720 also because I think part of it is you don't want that to be 331 00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:59,040 documented. You absolutely sloshed, you 332 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:02,760 know, falling over somewhere and you don't want it to be stay 333 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:06,480 with you for eternity. And so the social media is 334 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:08,920 influencing their behaviour and drinking, and I think it 335 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,840 potentially is also influencing people's behaviour in 336 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:14,240 relationships. I think it started to filter 337 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:18,120 through these messages of being in a relationship is not good 338 00:20:18,120 --> 00:20:21,480 for you. And also this need to be seen to 339 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:25,760 be an independent woman. I'm an independent woman. 340 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:27,640 I mean, maybe that song has a lot to answer for. 341 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:29,680 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 342 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:33,000 But also, Beyoncé then did bills, bills, bills. 343 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:34,920 Yeah. Which is like, can you pay my 344 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:37,880 bills? So the contradiction is crazy. 345 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:40,760 Yeah. Like, I want to be independent 346 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:43,000 and celebrate that call. Then also, I'm only going to 347 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:44,080 date you if you could pay my bills. 348 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:46,520 Yes. But you see, we've also come 349 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:51,600 from a situation where women were doing the vast majority of 350 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:54,560 the, you know, going back to, I think unpaid labour is a big 351 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:58,760 part of this though. We go back to a phase where, you 352 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:02,280 know, point in time when women were doing absolutely the lion's 353 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:04,400 share of the unpaid labour, the cooking, cleaning, soft paying, 354 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:09,680 the caring, but there was an unwritten expectation that then 355 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:13,600 the man would do the vast majority of the earning, the 356 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:16,320 external labour to bring the money home. 357 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:17,960 And we're not in that position anymore. 358 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:24,960 One in one in four couples, women are the primary earner and 359 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:28,720 when they are the primary earner, they tend to do more of 360 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:33,400 the unpaid labour. So we're in a situation now 361 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:38,000 where women are falling to pieces because we are still 362 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:42,000 doing the vast majority of the unpaid labour and we are now 363 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:48,440 expected to be independent women who can earn their keep and be 364 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:52,000 financially independent. So we've got to do both of those 365 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:55,880 things simultaneously. So back when we had this 366 00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:59,960 unwritten agreement where men would bring home the bacon and 367 00:21:59,960 --> 00:22:04,720 the women would cook it, at least we were both doing similar 368 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:07,360 amounts of work, just in different spheres. 369 00:22:07,360 --> 00:22:09,080 And I'm not saying I want to go back there. 370 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:12,440 Absolutely don't. I'm just saying that transition 371 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:15,040 has been really slow. Women are doing a lot more of 372 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:21,280 the paid work, and men haven't on average, kept pace with the 373 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:24,080 other side. And so it does feel like a real 374 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:26,640 kickback to me. And that nowhere was this more 375 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:27,920 apparent than during the pandemic. 376 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:32,080 And I feel like the pandemic has sort of put rocket up the ass of 377 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:37,840 this because we saw so clearly in households when people were 378 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:43,120 stuck at home that women would like falling apart mentally. 379 00:22:43,120 --> 00:22:46,400 Because the only time the unpaid labour was shared between 380 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:49,200 mothers and fathers was when the mother was continuing to do paid 381 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:50,600 work and the father was furloughed. 382 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:53,880 Then it was shared equally the unpaid labour. 383 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:58,760 Women were interrupted during their paid work on average every 384 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:00,960 hour. Men were interrupted every three 385 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:03,040 hours. The government, for goodness 386 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:06,520 sake, put out an advert to tell everybody to stay at home and 387 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:10,280 the image was of a woman doing the hoovering and the unpaid 388 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:12,840 labor and the man was lying on the sofa. 389 00:23:13,360 --> 00:23:17,120 No way. Like, you know, it was just 390 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:21,120 everywhere and everywhere you look, women were falling apart 391 00:23:21,120 --> 00:23:24,960 because they were doing, trying to keep it all together, the 392 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:28,200 emotional labour, the mental labour, the domestic labour and 393 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:34,680 the paid labour. And I think that has potentially 394 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:39,840 forced people to sort of see these inequalities that really 395 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:42,320 exist and think, I don't want that for me. 396 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:46,960 I don't want my life to look like that and it's a kickback 397 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:54,640 against those things. I did a talk 2 days ago and got 398 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:58,360 a really interesting question. So the audience were people who 399 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:00,320 share family networks in companies. 400 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:04,440 And I did my talk about engaging dads in family networks. 401 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:06,920 And at the end, this lady put her hand up and asked a question 402 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:14,480 about how do they talk to the dads from the angle of when you 403 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:19,680 prioritize childcare or find a better balance between your work 404 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:23,320 and your life and you are active equal parents at home, it's 405 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:25,520 potentially going to impact your career. 406 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:29,360 Like how do they approach that conversation with the men 407 00:24:29,360 --> 00:24:34,040 because they see that that is a barrier to those men doing what 408 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:37,120 they should be doing at home. And I just, I spoke about 409 00:24:37,120 --> 00:24:40,320 consequence, the fact that I don't think as men, we've had 410 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:45,000 conversations about consequences and what the result of our 411 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:47,400 decisions could be, especially now. 412 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:51,800 So maybe 15 years ago, there wasn't so much of a consequence 413 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:58,000 of prioritizing work. And I say prioritizing not not 414 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:02,640 discounting households needs, financial contributions and 415 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:04,160 whatnot. What I'm talking about here is 416 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:08,520 for the men who have choice, who earn a decent amount of money 417 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:10,720 and there is a decent amount of money coming into the home. 418 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,000 For those men who have the choice to take the full parental 419 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:16,000 leave, the choice to work flexibly, the choice to leave 420 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:18,520 early three days a week to do the school pick up, the choice 421 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:22,320 to take on the mental load, which a lot of men that I speak 422 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:25,680 to do. So I think maybe 1520 years ago, 423 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:30,400 the consequence of not parenting out loud at work and being equal 424 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:34,640 parents at home, maybe there wasn't much of A consequence 425 00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:38,600 because your partner might have stayed because at the time that 426 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:41,200 was culturally what you know, what we did. 427 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:45,240 I think in in recent years there has been a shift. 428 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,000 Now so many more women have realized, actually, I can do 429 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:52,880 this by myself. As you said, when women are 430 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:55,960 widowed, they are sometimes happier. 431 00:25:56,560 --> 00:26:00,360 I know women in my own life who have, who are mothers who got 432 00:26:00,360 --> 00:26:02,560 divorced are, are way happier now. 433 00:26:03,360 --> 00:26:06,640 So for those men before, they may not have been a consequence. 434 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:12,400 Now there is a consequence and if you want that really strong 435 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:14,880 relationship with your children, but also you want a happy 436 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:21,040 partnership and a happy wife, partner, girlfriend, and you 437 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:26,360 want that close relationship. You want regular good sex, you 438 00:26:26,360 --> 00:26:31,720 want a happy home, you want the the joys of being in a family 439 00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:33,600 unit and all the stuff that comes with that. 440 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:38,720 Then we have to think about what is the consequence of our 441 00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:42,720 decisions if we choose not to. When we do have the choice, the 442 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:45,560 consequence may be that we're going to get divorced in a few 443 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,520 years. The consequence may be in 20 444 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:52,160 years time our kids come over and they don't really have much 445 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:54,920 to say to us and there's a bit of distance and we don't feel 446 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:56,960 connected because we didn't have those shared memories when they 447 00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:58,880 were younger. Potentially that is a 448 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:00,800 consequence. I don't think we've spoken 449 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,960 enough about the reality of that, but that's happening all 450 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:05,840 the time. It's happening all the time and 451 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:08,560 so we're trying to bring up those conversations. 452 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:12,360 It's not about blame, it's not about accusing anyone. 453 00:27:12,360 --> 00:27:15,000 It's not about anyone making anyone feel feel bad about 454 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:16,960 anything. It's just the reality of what's 455 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:20,520 going on. And every decision we make comes 456 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:24,720 with a trade off. And the reality is, yes, if you 457 00:27:26,120 --> 00:27:30,800 do prioritize childcare and, and parent loudly and, and for a 458 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:33,160 little while, you're going to be really pouring into your 459 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:35,480 children. It may be that your career's 460 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,240 going to stall for a little while, you know, not forever, 461 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:40,160 but for a few years. You might not get promoted. 462 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:43,120 That is a consequence of that decision, but you're going to 463 00:27:43,120 --> 00:27:46,920 have fingers crossed, a really good relationship with all your 464 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:48,920 family members. And we know how valuable that 465 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:51,680 is. The flip side is we prioritize 466 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:53,280 work. We stay late, we don't take that 467 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:54,880 parental leave. We say no to the flexible 468 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:56,840 working when we could do it. We don't work from home when we 469 00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:58,280 could. We don't do the mental illness 470 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:01,360 school pickups. We may get promoted, we may earn 471 00:28:01,360 --> 00:28:05,160 more money. That's a consequence, but that's 472 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:07,840 probably going to have an impact at home. 473 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:11,520 Again, it's not to say anyone has to make any decision. 474 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:15,880 It's just about presenting the reality of where we are and the 475 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:20,920 privilege, if you like, of working in the time. 476 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,440 Now, depending on where you work, obviously, but for a lot 477 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,720 of people, they do have access to work to be, to be more 478 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,200 flexible. It is possible for men to be 479 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,440 equal parents. We can still maintain careers 480 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:38,560 and earn good money. It it can be done, take 481 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:40,680 advantage of that. So that's definitely one thing I 482 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:42,840 always want to talk about. The other thing that I think 483 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:47,200 from this article really kind of got me is obviously like, I have 484 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:52,960 two daughters and I think about how I would feel if they were 485 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:56,960 reading this article. And part of me is like, yes, I 486 00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:02,320 want them to get their own money, not feel like they have 487 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:06,840 to rely on anyone. Definitely it's better to not 488 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:09,880 being a in a relationship is better than being in a bad 489 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:14,160 relationship. 100%. But the flip side of that is 490 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:16,560 that there are still really good men. 491 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:23,640 There are still lovely, caring men who will do all the things 492 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:29,320 that most women want them to do. There's those men still exist. 493 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:37,200 And I feel like what I wouldn't want my daughters to do is to go 494 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,280 into the world and think, oh, having a boyfriend is 495 00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:41,360 embarrassing. Point blank. 496 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,000 That's it. That like, oh, that there's, 497 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:48,400 there's no good men. And there's a blanket statement 498 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,040 and that is true. And we live kind of that's, 499 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:52,520 that's that's our starting point. 500 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,440 I don't, I don't want them to do that because there are still 501 00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:00,640 good men out there, you know, and, and I want them to find if 502 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:04,600 they are heterosexual, I want them to find a good man and have 503 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:08,560 a partnership because that is, that is really good too. 504 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:10,840 Again, they're not taking anything away from single 505 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:11,640 people. That's cool. 506 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:13,400 If you want to do that, that's fine and you can live a happy 507 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:16,000 life being single. But it's also really nice to be 508 00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:17,320 in a good partnership when it's healthy. 509 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:23,760 And when it comes to building wealth, when it comes to like, 510 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:25,640 basically like group economics, right? 511 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:30,760 It's easier to build together. And so I just wouldn't want. 512 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,880 I was thinking about that. I was thinking, OK, like, I hear 513 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:35,280 it. I understand it for all the 514 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:38,880 reasons we've spoken about. I don't think I would want my 515 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:44,400 daughters to read it without conversation with me or their 516 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:51,200 mom about like what the wider context of this means. 517 00:30:51,800 --> 00:31:00,720 And I hope also that they may read that, but think, well, my 518 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:03,160 dad's cool, Yeah. My aunt. 519 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:06,200 My uncle's cool, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 520 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:08,880 So. I mean, you have set a precedent 521 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:12,080 for your kids, they've seen your behaviour and they will expect 522 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:16,200 that now in a man. And that's the absolute most 523 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,760 glorious thing that you could do for those girls is show them 524 00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:25,160 what a good man is and how he behaves because and the lots of 525 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:27,160 girls don't get that opportunity. 526 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:29,520 You know, my dad was never around. 527 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:34,200 I never barely ever saw him. So knowing what a healthy 528 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:37,520 relationship looked like just didn't exist for me. 529 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:43,600 And I think it didn't exist for lots of, lots of women I know as 530 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:47,280 well, because our generation, the dad was out the vast 531 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:50,200 majority of, of the time the woman was at home. 532 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:54,640 You didn't see men behave in a way that was, you know, they 533 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,560 didn't spend as much time with the kids and they didn't spend 534 00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:01,040 as much time at home as as men are starting to do now. 535 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:05,800 But your girls, well have, they'll have seen that. 536 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:11,640 And, and I think, you know, I, I think when I was growing up, you 537 00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:18,040 didn't, your expectations of men were very low and you just felt 538 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:19,560 grateful to be in a relationship. 539 00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:21,640 The vast majority of girls that I knew. 540 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:25,720 And I think now what I would hope comes from this is girls 541 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,600 are more demanding of better relationships. 542 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:32,200 They say to men, this is what I want in a relationship. 543 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:34,680 This is what is a good relationship and a healthy 544 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,600 relationship to me. If you are not prepared for 545 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:40,240 that, if that doesn't feel right for you, then this isn't going 546 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,040 to work. And I never had conversations 547 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:45,840 with anybody I was with like that and never talked to them 548 00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:49,040 about, you know, and with my partner now, we never had a 549 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:52,760 conversation about if we have kids, who's going to continue 550 00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:55,320 their career? Who's going to you know what? 551 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:59,080 You know, I did a post on LinkedIn recently, like asking 552 00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:03,200 the simple question of if we both got an important meeting 553 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:06,000 and one of the kids is sick, who's going to step back? 554 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:10,000 Like have that conversation before you enter into those 555 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,560 relationships. I think if you do have those 556 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:15,680 open conversations, that could help to resolve a lot when you 557 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:20,760 come up against it rather than just like it happening and then 558 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:25,800 starting and you, you know, for some people then potentially 559 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:30,640 realizing crap, I've now got to take a step back from something 560 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:33,520 I love because the other person isn't willing to do it. 561 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:37,800 Yeah, to know what I think I realise from this is everything 562 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:41,720 we do is, is political. You know, whether we choose to 563 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:45,040 have a partner or not is now like a political decision. 564 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:47,920 And I, I think I saw a comment on the article. 565 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:49,560 I think it was a comment, It was another article. 566 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:51,360 There's so much that I've read over this over the last week or 567 00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:53,400 so. And someone said why does it 568 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:55,120 feel like having a boyfriend is Republican? 569 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,120 That's actually quite funny. But I hear it. 570 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:03,640 I get it. I hear it. 571 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:08,159 Like I understand that. Do you think that this is two 572 00:34:08,159 --> 00:34:10,480 sides of the same coin with being a trad wife? 573 00:34:10,639 --> 00:34:13,000 Like I think there's a link there with the trad wife 574 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:16,639 movement that you've got, you know, in this case, people 575 00:34:16,639 --> 00:34:20,920 saying, oh, well, I'm I'm going to remain single and I don't 576 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:24,199 want people to even know if I would consider being in a 577 00:34:24,199 --> 00:34:25,920 relationship. And then the other side, you've 578 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:29,239 got women going. I will do whatever you tell me. 579 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,400 I'm going to stay at home and look gorgeous and do all the 580 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:33,800 cooking and cleaning and childcare. 581 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:34,880 Yeah. Do you know what's interesting? 582 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:40,760 Because in our relationship, we earn and care as equal as we 583 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:42,400 can. It changes week by week, but you 584 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:44,239 know, our starting point is, is equal. 585 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:48,639 And it's really hard, kids. Really bloody hard. 586 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:52,000 Yeah. Like you're both doing 587 00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:57,640 everything and so I'm not saying I would want it the alternative 588 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,760 long term anyway. The alternative is not good, but 589 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:06,280 on a day-to-day, equal parenting is quite tiring for both of you. 590 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:07,880 Like it's, it's really hard for both, right? 591 00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:11,040 And so last year, Snelli took a career break. 592 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:16,640 He took three months off and I would come home and the house 593 00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:21,280 would be clean. Food on the table. 594 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:26,200 Food on the table. Kids picked up from the school 595 00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:27,760 get me. Excited. 596 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:34,080 And I was like, Oh yeah, I am not running around like a 597 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:36,120 headless chicken trying to do all these things. 598 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:39,040 You're not running around like a headless chicken. 599 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:42,120 Don't get me wrong. That was like a career break, 600 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:43,520 right? Three months. 601 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,360 OK cool. It could have been either way, 602 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:48,440 it it was nice for that period of time. 603 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:50,880 Would it work for us long term? No. 604 00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:54,000 First of all, financially the UK is bloody expensive. 605 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:55,920 Like 2 incomes really really help. 606 00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:58,880 So first of all, financially. Secondly, Snelly wouldn't be 607 00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:00,840 happy. Yeah, I was going to say. 608 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:04,800 That off work cool like home for three months, amazing. 609 00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:06,760 It's a it's like a holiday. Do you know what I mean? 610 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:09,160 But OK, you are home for the next 20 years. 611 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:12,160 That's a different proposal now that's a different that's a 612 00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:15,120 different scenario altogether. So she wouldn't be happy. 613 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:19,360 But also what I found out for myself is that if that was the 614 00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:23,520 case, I would probably do less parenting, which I don't want to 615 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:28,160 do because naturally why would I leave, leave early to do the 616 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:32,360 pick up when she's doing it now? Like why would I wouldn't need 617 00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:34,240 to? Even if I wanted to gradually I 618 00:36:34,240 --> 00:36:38,040 probably would just back away. It's natural because you've got 619 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:41,200 your roles now. You're the main earner actually. 620 00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:43,480 The pressure is on you to go out and earn. 621 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:46,440 So you better go out and earn mate, especially being 622 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:48,640 self-employed as well. Or like I can't just sit at 623 00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:50,640 home, like don't get paid sitting at home. 624 00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:55,480 I'd love to if I don't, so I would naturally pull away and so 625 00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:58,120 it wouldn't work for any of us long term. 626 00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:03,920 But for that three months coming home to a roast and the heating 627 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,320 on and the carpets been hoovered, it was lovely. 628 00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:13,400 Can you imagine? My mum used to look after when 629 00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:16,600 the kids were babies, she used to come to Manchester every two 630 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:20,800 weeks and she'd stay overnight one night every two weeks and 631 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:23,960 look after the kids. And that was my window into what 632 00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:27,800 it was like to have somebody at home doing stuff. 633 00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:29,600 Because while she was there she'd do the work. 634 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:32,320 She'd do a bit of washing and she'd clean the floor a bit. 635 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:33,920 And sometimes she'd bring food with her. 636 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:38,320 And it was honest that I'd look forward to that every. 637 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:41,800 I mean, it stopped after two years and there was only once 638 00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:48,040 every two weeks. But it was, it was, it was lush. 639 00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:52,960 And I was like, this is what it was like back in the day for men 640 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:56,000 going out to work, come back, the food would be on the table. 641 00:37:56,640 --> 00:38:03,960 Kids would be clean and sorted. I mean, no wonder, yeah. 642 00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:07,280 No wonder. But I just know for Snelli, like 643 00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:11,200 she's, she's very clever, right? Like she, she's way clever than 644 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:16,040 I am, by the way. She's so smart and has so much 645 00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:19,320 value to give in the world and society and she's super 646 00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:20,880 talented. So she wouldn't like, she 647 00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:23,440 wouldn't be happy, right? And if she's not happy, I'm, I'm 648 00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:26,040 not happy that no one's happy. So I, I, yeah, I think we're in 649 00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:29,320 this interesting point now where again, if that's what people 650 00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:31,920 want to do, then that's fine. And I, I don't think we should 651 00:38:32,240 --> 00:38:35,600 make them feel bad for that. If they genuinely both want to 652 00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:38,240 live in that traditional set up, then yeah, cool. 653 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:42,920 If it's healthy for you and you genuinely want to do it, great. 654 00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:47,560 I think the other thing I've seen as well is, is I think the 655 00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:50,080 definition of Chad wife has changed a little bit. 656 00:38:50,240 --> 00:38:53,800 Because I feel like before a Chad wife was genuinely a Chad 657 00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:56,120 wife. But I've seen some Chad wife 658 00:38:56,120 --> 00:39:00,320 influences now on Instagram who have like 250,000 followers and 659 00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:05,440 quite a lot of brand deals. And so are you a triad wife or 660 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:12,520 are you a part time influencer and you do all the childcare? 661 00:39:12,720 --> 00:39:18,160 Yeah, yeah, that's, yeah. Well, again, it's a big lie, 662 00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:20,880 isn't it? I think being a triad wife does 663 00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:25,680 sell, actually now it seems. And yeah, I think lots of there 664 00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:29,440 are a lot of my trad, trad rising doing inverted Commons. 665 00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:35,520 It's podcasts you can't see. I've just realized who they're, 666 00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:39,200 they're pretending that, you know, their whole life is 667 00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:44,880 looking gorgeous and doing all of the traditional work in the 668 00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:47,160 home when actually they have careers, their career is 669 00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:50,240 particularly working. Exactly. 670 00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:52,560 You actually got a job. You've probably got like a 671 00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:55,320 social media manager, like an assistant. 672 00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:57,360 You've got a whole business. Yeah. 673 00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:02,920 You're you're a businesswoman. Yeah, yeah, completely. 674 00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:05,000 Yeah. We don't talk about that. 675 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:10,040 We just pretend that we're all just happy at home. 676 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,200 Yeah. I mean, it's such a such a mad 677 00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:18,160 world kids growing up in now to me because, well, I'm sure to 678 00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:19,520 you as well, because we just didn't. 679 00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:22,800 None of this existed. There was just, there's no 680 00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:24,960 social media, there was no Internet, there was no phones. 681 00:40:25,240 --> 00:40:28,360 There was just a very simple kind of messaging. 682 00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:31,760 It was still very simple. And now it feels all completely 683 00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:34,080 in flux and there's all the chaos going on. 684 00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:40,560 And I, you know, I think it will start to settle down. 685 00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:43,800 I have hopes that things will start to settle down and we'll 686 00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:46,520 find a rhythm that works in this new world. 687 00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:53,080 We're just at the moment dealing with the complexity and that is 688 00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:56,160 chaotic for all of us. And it means that we're seeing 689 00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:58,200 things like it feeling embarrassing to have a 690 00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:01,720 boyfriend, trad wives, polarization between men and 691 00:41:01,720 --> 00:41:06,160 women, and many other groups. I have faith, though, that 692 00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:10,520 eventually we'll find a way to work in this new world that 693 00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:11,880 works for all of us. And. 694 00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:16,480 I also, I think just to end as well, I think I'm it's in like 695 00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:21,520 guiding the young people, right? Like your sons, my daughters, we 696 00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:25,280 need to, we need to give them an insight into the world. 697 00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:27,280 We need to give them like advice. 698 00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:30,680 I think it's really hard to expect them to just go into this 699 00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:34,160 world where there's so many options and so many narratives 700 00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:36,840 and so many things that you could and couldn't be that 701 00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:39,720 didn't exist 20-30 years ago when we were maybe a bit 702 00:41:39,720 --> 00:41:41,160 younger. And we need to help them to 703 00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:45,080 navigate this because back then, I'm talking about 20-30, forty, 704 00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:48,160 50 years ago, things were shit for for women, right? 705 00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:53,760 And now there are things that could make it less shit and 706 00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:55,800 there are more options for how you can live your life. 707 00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:59,160 But I do feel like we need to help young men and boys and 708 00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:02,040 girls to navigate that. Like your post on LinkedIn, What 709 00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:04,840 is a good relationship? What questions should you be 710 00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:06,880 asking? Like before you get into a 711 00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:10,240 relationship? You know, we did. 712 00:42:10,240 --> 00:42:13,400 We used to do that. And also, I feel like spend a 713 00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:15,560 little bit time off the Internet as well. 714 00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:19,160 You know, I think yes, I think online narratives are a 715 00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:24,440 reflection of real life, but also I feel like when we spend 716 00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:29,080 so much time online reading things and we can, we can feel 717 00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:30,800 like that represents the whole world. 718 00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:34,960 And I look around and I'm like, it kind of does definitely in 719 00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:37,760 some ways, but also it doesn't in some ways too. 720 00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:42,760 And there's loads of examples, but I can reel off of healthy, 721 00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:45,320 happy people who are in relationships who we haven't 722 00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:47,200 even seen this article. We were just getting on their 723 00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:48,920 life. So yeah. 724 00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:52,520 So yeah, it's it's yes, it's a mindful to navigate. 725 00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:55,080 I feel like I've got foodies without getting cancelled. 726 00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:56,880 I feel like you did too. Well done. 727 00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:01,680 I know I cancelled. But we'll wait and see, Elliot. 728 00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:06,000 Well, thank you everybody for listening. 729 00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:08,920 Take some time to go and read the article and let us know what 730 00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:12,400 you think and we will see you next week. 731 00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:14,160 See ya. Bye.