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Hello and welcome back to To Be 
a Boy with Me, Jolie Brilly. 

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Me, Elliot Ray. 
We really would love you to 

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click subscribe. 
I know we keep saying that, but 

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it really does help us maybe a 
little like as well just to show

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that you've given us a good 
thumbs up, you know, just makes 

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us feel good. 
Thank you very much. 

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From rising mental health 
struggles and record rates of 

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male suicide to the challenges 
faced in education and health, 

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the landscape for men and boys 
is rapidly shifting and support 

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along the way has often been 
limited. 

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Just the idea that men and boys 
need support can sometimes be 

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met with hesitation and 
pushback. 

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It's essential that we engage 
boys and men in conversations 

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around positive masculinity. 
Conversations that ensure our 

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sons, brothers, friends and 
colleagues can live happy and 

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healthy lives and contribute 
positively to their families and

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communities. 
Today we are joined by Owen 

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Thomas and Chris Stein from 
Future Men. 

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Founded in 1988, Future Men is a
multi award-winning specialist 

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charity that supports boys and 
men along the path to becoming 

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dynamic future men while 
addressing this is the 

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stereotypes around masculinity 
and engaging in the wider 

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conversation about what it means
to be a man. 

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Future Men support boys and men 
from childhood to 25 plus to 

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help them improve their mental 
health and well-being and guide 

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them to become dynamic and 
future healthy men. 

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Welcome Chris and Owen to the 
podcast. 

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Great to have you. 
Nice to see you. 

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Yeah. 
Thank you, Elliot, and 

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congratulations both to you and 
Jolie on your Mbes. 

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Very, very well deserved. 
And you know, we really support 

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all the work you guys are doing.
Oh, lovely. 

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Thanks so much, Chris. 
I appreciate that. 

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Let's get straight in. 
Let's get straight in. 

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So the conversation around men 
and boys has never been so 

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divisive, controversial, 
amplified and platformed. 

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And as people have been doing 
this work for many years, we are

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really interested in your 
thoughts about how do you see 

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the conversation evolving. 
What are your reflections on how

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the conversation around the 
plight of men and boys has 

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evolved in recent years? 
I'll do the, I'll do the sort of

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maybe the headline stuff. 
And I think first of all, the 

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idea of plight. 
I, I think that's an interesting

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framing because we do still live
in the UK and probably more 

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globally as well. 
But I want to be clear that 

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we're speaking about the UK 
situation in in a patriarchy and

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one where misogyny is rife at 
very many levels, from from 

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banter all the way up to serious
violence. 

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But equally, the conversation 
around boys and men more 

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generally often skews to the 
most violent and the most 

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successful. 
But for the vast majority of 

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boys and men, that might not 
reflect their lived experience 

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whatsoever. 
And so I think that that framing

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is not inclusive and it can 
create some division because of 

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its lack of inclusivity. 
I would add from our 

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perspectives of future men, our 
target cohort of men and boys, 

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whilst we really, really are 
keen to spread our reach as wide

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as possible and contribute to 
the wider conversation in 

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society around the role of men 
and boys, I think our focus, our

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articles focus on more 
marginalised men and boys. 

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So people who are maybe more on 
the fringes of society, who 

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don't have the agency or the 
personal skill set, education or

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opportunity to maybe reflect 
within their own mind on who 

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they're being and how they're 
being and who they want to be. 

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I think the narrative very much 
is framed, as Chris has kind of 

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alluded to, in the deficits that
we see within men. 

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So a lot of the discussion at 
the moment around men and boys 

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is around the problems that they
are posing society and the 

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challenges that poses to our 
ideals of how we want society to

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be as we move forward. 
I think your introduction was a 

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really on point when you said 
like, how do we help men live 

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happy, healthy lives where they 
contribute to wider society? 

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I think that's all we want. 
I think the models of 

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masculinity have been shared 
with many of us for so many 

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years are not conducive with 
that. 

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They're conducive with a 
patriarchal model that says it's

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a hierarchical system. 
Men are at the top, white 

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affluent men normally at the top
of that system. 

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They draw the benefits out of 
that and below that. 

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There are various kind of levels
that we can occupy in this 

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devilish pyramids of life to try
and get them going. 

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And most men don't benefit from 
it. 

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Most men in who are not kind of 
causing lots of problems to the 

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rest of society and themselves 
and their families, but also 

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don't benefit from being in 
charge of the way the world 

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works or drawing off a lot of 
financial reward from that, find

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themselves in the middle, a bit 
confused about where to go. 

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Stuck within the frameworks that
don't meet their needs, their 

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children's needs, their 
partner's needs, and are often 

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struggling to find ways to be 
satisfied and fulfilled with all

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of the pressures and ideas about
how you're supposed to be. 

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So the narrative is you're 
absolutely right. 

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More visible than it's ever 
been, but I don't think it's the

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healthiest it's ever been. 
It's quite adversarial at the 

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moment and at the time of kind 
of shrinking resources, rising 

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prices, Some people who are 
very, very loudly shouting about

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what models of masculinity they 
think we should adhere to, 

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including the current leader of 
the free world. 

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You know, it's a really 
challenging time, you know, And 

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no one tells you more clearly 
and more upfrontly about what it

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is to be a man than a young boy.
He quotes Donald Trump and says,

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but hold on. 
He says that's how he should be.

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That's how, look, he just got 
voted in. 

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Clearly, you know, I can't be 
wrong in espousing some of these

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views. 
So I think we just want to be 

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part of a conversation. 
It's not for us to dictate to 

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men and boys about how they 
should be. 

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It's for us to build a 
relationship so we can have a 

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healthy challenge and present 
them with options to consider 

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themselves and then be be 
available afterwards whenever 

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time to consider, to say, right 
now you've considered it, now 

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you're more open to the idea of 
help, Let's make sure we've got 

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mechanisms to help. 
Yeah, let's, let's talk about 

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that. 
What you're saying there around 

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what young boys tell you, 
because, you know, one of the 

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reasons we want to get you on 
the podcast is because your 

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organization does work with boys
on, on on the ground. 

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You're you're in schools, you're
in communities talking to boys 

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and sometimes this conversation 
can be had about boys, but not 

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actually with their voices 
included. 

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So what would you say on the 
most pressing and poignant 

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issues that you're hearing from 
boys on a day-to-day basis? 

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Some while back, I conducted a 
series of focus groups with 

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representation from each of our 
strands of work. 

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So we work in schools, we work 
with fathers, and we work in the

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community. 
And I used a tool which was a 

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series of kind of words and 
prompts and then a scale of 

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strongly agreed to strongly 
disagree so that then they could

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talk to the tool and not about 
themselves. 

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This was about trying to foster 
an environment where it was 

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broader than the individual. 
And some really key ideas came 

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out maybe surprising and maybe 
not. 

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Maybe not surprising depending 
upon your perspective, but the 

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younger boys held more 
traditional views of 

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masculinity. 
There was more of an aspiration 

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towards an archetype and a norm 
than there was for the fathers 

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for example. 
And the, the, the, the fathers 

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were generally in the kind of 
late 20s to mid to the mid 30s 

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range. 
And they were saying by this 

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point a lot of those kind of 
ideas of what type of trainers 

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to wear or how to, how to flex 
in society, they were gone. 

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They just didn't. 
It wasn't a big issue for them. 

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Masculinity was framed very much
in terms of religion. 

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So there, there are a number of 
young people that we support in 

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the community, particularly 
around Westminster and N 

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Kensington that come from more 
sort of North African 

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backgrounds. 
And this was a, a big influence 

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on them in terms of their, 
their, their ideas and normative

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behaviors towards masculinity. 
I've mentioned age culture as 

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well. 
We support, as Owen said, young,

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young people, young men, men 
from lots of different cultures,

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but often more marginalized 
backgrounds. 

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And those sort of cultural 
factors played a role again, in 

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their view of masculinity. 
So there were all these 

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different ways of understanding 
masculinity, which was important

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to confirm that masculinity is 
not one thing and it's not 

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existent in. 
It has normative functions, 

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normative behaviors, normative 
thought processes, but equally 

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they're interpreted through a 
prism that sort of parses out 

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what what we do and what we say 
in terms of the actual 

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challenges that are faced 
educationally, boys are not 

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doing particularly well. 
For something like 33 years. 

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Boys have underperformed at GCSE
level and of course there's lots

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of cutting of that. 
So it's not all boys, it's some 

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boys in some circumstances. 
And at certain ages. 

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And at certain ages, yeah. 
Yeah, because. 

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You know, we've seen, for 
example, ethnic minority Afro 

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Kuban boys do really well at 
primary school and then there's 

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something that switches in the 
transition to secondary school 

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with the onset of adolescents 
and different expectations 

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around what we want from our 
teenage boys and what their 

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peers expect from them and what 
society expect from them 

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depending on where they grow up 
and what their socio economical 

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cultural background. 
Maybe you see this divergent and

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this change in terms of 
outcomes, opportunities and 

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behaviours and also in the way 
they're viewed by society as 

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well, which has an influence on 
this. 

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Expectation shapes how you 
behave. 

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You live up to an expectation. 
If it's very low and very 

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negative, we can't be surprised 
sometimes that boys that we 

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frame in that light start 
fitting the mould. 

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You know, it's difficult to 
break the mould. 

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That's why we say, well, he's 
breaking the mould and we make a

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big deal out of it, you know, 
but actually we sit back and go,

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why isn't everybody breaking the
mould? 

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He's done it and we think 
because he's not been given the 

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inputs to allow him to do so. 
So sorry to jump in there, but I

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just think it's really important
to to, to realise that it's not 

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a continuum. 
There are opportunities for boys

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and men when they're really 
flexible, when they're getting 

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lots of new ideas compared to 
what my childhood in the 70s and

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80s might have been like and 
what my oldest child, who's not 

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a boy, by the way, who's a girl,
but her compatriots and her 

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peers and her cousins who grew 
up in the 90s were having. 

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It was a very different 
environment, you know, But now 

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there is a lot of information, 
there's a lot of people actively

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kind of almost pressing you into
different camps. 

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And modern life is all about 
camps, right? 

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Whether it's online, whether 
it's about your, whether you're 

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a goth or you're a grime or a 
drill, whatever it is your 

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social grouping is, there's less
scope. 

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I feel like for boys and men to 
move around these different 

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groups, learn new experience and
learn new tools to help them get

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through life. 
They can be very rigidly locked 

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into one pathway, even more so 
now than before. 

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And you would have thought 
that's not possible. 

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You've got the world at your 
fingertips, but what it does is,

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you know, the devil in the room 
being social media is it allows 

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you to just follow the path of 
least resistance. 

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And and then the algorithms say,
well, I've started looking at 

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things that are a bit dramatic 
in this area. 

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I'll just feed more of the same 
content to you so there isn't a 

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challenge. 
So our services are based around

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not only asking to guys what 
they think, young men, boys, 

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young adults, which is really 
important as well because, you 

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know, the traditional ages at 
which we went through different 

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rites of passage is changing. 
You know, what do they say? 

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40s, a new 3050's, a new 40. 
So that that has a knock on 

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effect all the way back, you 
know, right down to your 

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childhood where the frameworks 
we give boys to develop within, 

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you know, the expectation. 50 a 
hundred years ago it was very 

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clear about what boys and men 
did in society. 

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You either achieved academically
and went on to these types of 

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careers or these type of 
apprenticeships, or you didn't 

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and you were out of school and 
you were working by the time you

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were 14. 
You might have been married and 

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had a family by the time you 
were 16 or 17, but you also had 

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status in society and in your 
community because you were doing

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all the things expected of you 
as a man. 

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Since we've had all of the 
marvellous advancements in 

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society since the 60s onwards 
with women's lived, the advance 

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of reproductive protection and 
technologies that have liberated

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women from being under the yoke 
of marriage and men. 

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And we've got a much say, much 
more informed by choice, the 

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traditional roles that men had 
for a long time have got. 

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And we've not, we're kind of sat
back and going, all right, so 

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how's life going to be now? 
What's society going to be like 

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now? 
And we're leaving different 

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groups of people behind. 
While some of us are doing 

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really well at this flexible new
egalitarian lifestyle, But for 

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many men and boys, they're not. 
Which is why we're seeing for 

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us, in our view, the kind of 
growth of negative speak, talk 

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and ideas and groups that attach
themselves to these kind of more

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toxic or more harmful models of 
masculinity that actually are 

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not really satisfying for those 
men or fulfilling for them in 

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the long term. 
Hey Elliot here. 

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As you may know, as well as Co 
hosting this lovely podcast, I 

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00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:10,400
also run Parenting Out Loud, the
workplace coach change program 

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00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:13,480
that supports dads to be loud 
and proud about their care and 

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00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:16,360
responsibilities at work and 
equal parents at home. 

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Well, I have some exciting news.
In September we are hosting EU 

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00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:23,720
KS first ever Working Dads 
Summit. 

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00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:26,760
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00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:30,600
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00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:34,440
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00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:37,320
means to be a dad in today's 
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00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:40,000
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00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:03,680
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264
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00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:11,680
Just search for parenting out 
loud right back to the show. 

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00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:18,360
There was a polden earlier this 
week which found that just under

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half of boys and young men think
that feminism has gone too far 

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and that they themselves have 
experienced sexism. 

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00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:28,200
This came out on the radio on 
Monday and I was in the kitchen 

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00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:30,080
with my 11 year old son and he 
heard it. 

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And he said to me, I would agree
with that. 

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00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:35,680
And I said, all right, well tell
me a bit more. 

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00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:38,320
What do you mean? 
And he said, well, at school, 

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all of the girls are constantly 
crying sexism over everything. 

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They call everything sexist. 
And it feels very much to me 

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00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:50,680
like the teachers constantly 
take their side over the side of

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00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:53,320
boys. 
Would you? 

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00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:55,040
This is a very controversial 
question. 

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00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:58,480
Would do you think that the way 
we've had the conversation about

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00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:04,560
women's rights has potentially 
caused negative side effects in 

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00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:09,160
terms of men feeling completely 
ignored from the conversation 

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00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:12,320
and therefore pushing back? 
Or do you think it's just that 

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00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:17,320
we've focused to a lot on women,
as you've said, women and girls,

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00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:20,920
but we haven't really had that 
conversation enough at all about

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00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:23,080
boys and men? 
The first thing I would want to 

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00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:27,120
say is that the advancement of 
women and feminism is to be 

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00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:30,320
felicited. 
And it's actually a model that 

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00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:36,000
should be deconstructed, 
decomposed and and analyzed from

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00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:40,480
the perspective of masculinity, 
boys and men to see what what 

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00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:45,040
aspects of that discussion can 
be brought forward and and 

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00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:48,560
implemented in in a way that 
resonates for boys and men. 

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00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:52,440
I mean, I would add, it's really
interesting and I'll make this, 

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00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:55,160
I suppose, more linked to 
experience of delivering what 

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00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:56,480
I've heard boys and young men 
saying. 

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00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:00,480
You know, first and foremost, 
it's about definitions. 

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00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:03,040
What does feminism mean? 
Does everyone understand what 

297
00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:05,920
the term feminism means? 
Because I've had conversations 

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00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:09,040
with feminists in different 
settings over the over the years

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00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:11,000
I've been doing this work and 
I've been here about 20 years 

300
00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:14,160
and you can get different views 
on what feminism is. 

301
00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:18,400
You know, there isn't 1U voice 
of feminism within the feminist 

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00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:20,680
movement. 
You know, there are disputes 

303
00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:24,200
about, you know, what feminism 
means for women of colour versus

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00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:26,800
a middle class white women 
talking about feminism and the 

305
00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:29,440
dynamics of power and how that 
plays out are really what we're 

306
00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:34,280
talking about here, I think. 
I mean #1 I'm interested to hear

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00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:38,200
how you manage that conversation
with your son, if that comes up 

308
00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:40,880
now, because it can't be easy. 
But I think that, you know, 

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00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:43,080
young men are not going to make 
this stuff up. 

310
00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:45,720
He's speaking based upon his 
experiences and what he's 

311
00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:47,840
observed, right? 
So maybe there's something 

312
00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:50,400
around his frame of reference 
where he needs to understand or 

313
00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:53,800
maybe be brought up to speed 
about the long struggle for 

314
00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:55,440
equality, which is still 
ongoing. 

315
00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:59,320
And that feminism, in my view, 
means I just believe in equality

316
00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:03,680
amongst the sexes. 
That doesn't mean that everyone 

317
00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:06,520
is the same all of the time, 
doing everything. 

318
00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:10,040
Equality of outcome is what 
we're looking for for everyone. 

319
00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:13,560
But equality of that doesn't 
mean necessarily that to get to 

320
00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:16,640
that end point, we all do 
exactly the same things. 

321
00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:18,960
So men have to cede some of that
space. 

322
00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:21,360
They have to cede some of that 
power, and they have to cede 

323
00:18:21,360 --> 00:18:24,920
some of that control. 
You know, and in issues of 

324
00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:28,480
fairness, how things are 
distributed, you have to start 

325
00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:31,600
talking about the advantages 
that some of us start our life 

326
00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:33,920
with or the privilege that some 
of us start our life with. 

327
00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:35,360
And they're a slightly scale 
than this. 

328
00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:38,360
You know, in some settings, 
Chris is more privileged than I 

329
00:18:38,360 --> 00:18:40,320
do. 
In some Chris and I and Elliot, 

330
00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:42,960
I have more than you do Jolie 
and vice versa. 

331
00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:46,040
But but really, the point I made
about this feeling of 

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00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:49,000
disenfranchisement, the work we 
do with marginalized boys, many 

333
00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:50,680
of them have no agency over 
their own lives. 

334
00:18:51,120 --> 00:18:53,200
You know, they grow in a 
household where all of the 

335
00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:55,600
significant adults in their 
lives are women because maybe 

336
00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:57,360
their dad's not at home. 
They've got a mum, they've got a

337
00:18:57,360 --> 00:19:00,560
nan and an aunt or most of the 
teachers at school are women. 

338
00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:03,120
You know, all of the powerful 
people. 

339
00:19:03,120 --> 00:19:06,080
They might have a social worker 
often as a woman, you know, so 

340
00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:07,480
they don't. 
And, and they feel like none of 

341
00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:09,400
you understand me, but you're 
telling me how I need to be and 

342
00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:13,360
what kind of person I should be.
You know, none of you care about

343
00:19:13,360 --> 00:19:15,640
my experience. 
And actually when I look at the 

344
00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:17,600
world, everything seems quite 
adversarial. 

345
00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:21,240
So what camp am I in if we don't
make the idea of, you know, you 

346
00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:24,160
can be a man, you can be 
heterosexual, you can be 

347
00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:26,880
traditional in your views, but 
you can still be empathetic, you

348
00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:29,840
can still believe that women 
shouldn't be controlled by men, 

349
00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:32,640
etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. 
It's a complicated, nuanced 

350
00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:35,720
conversation and we have to 
createspace for everyone to be 

351
00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:39,360
able to have that. 
PSHE frameworks don't work at 

352
00:19:39,360 --> 00:19:40,760
the moment for that. 
That's powerful. 

353
00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:42,520
Owen. 
I think so much of what you said

354
00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:47,040
is so true and resonates deeply 
with me as well. 

355
00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:50,640
Couple of things. 
You mentioned young boys having 

356
00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:54,120
a staunch idea about masculinity
without maybe the experience. 

357
00:19:54,120 --> 00:19:57,160
And I've definitely seen that in
my work and what you were saying

358
00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:01,120
there in regards to power and 
class and race and how that 

359
00:20:01,120 --> 00:20:02,640
intersects with this 
conversation. 

360
00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:04,640
And I want to kind of ask you 
about. 

361
00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:08,440
Your work, you work in London 
quite a lot with lots of 

362
00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:11,080
different communities. 
With a lot of the issues that 

363
00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:15,400
you're seeing boys speaking 
about, how do you think that 

364
00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:19,720
differs based on their race, 
their class and other 

365
00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:22,600
characteristics as well? 
Look, there's a sliding scale, 

366
00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:24,000
right? 
There are many in. 

367
00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:27,120
There's a concept of 
intersectionality. 

368
00:20:27,120 --> 00:20:28,720
I'm sure everyone here is 
familiar with it. 

369
00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:31,880
It's developed. 
I think it's Anne Phoenix. 

370
00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:34,200
Come up with this idea to talk 
about all the different factors 

371
00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:37,560
and different contributing 
issues that create the 

372
00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:39,680
environment that makes your 
world your world. 

373
00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:43,040
And so for boys and young men, 
this, these intersecting factors

374
00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:47,120
of race, culture, poverty, 
socioeconomic class, access to 

375
00:20:47,120 --> 00:20:52,800
opportunities all contribute 
towards you a being more or less

376
00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:55,600
likely to, as Chris kind of 
referred to at the beginning, 

377
00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:59,480
achieve educationally, 
academically, which opens up 

378
00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:01,920
your opportunities in life 
moving forward. 

379
00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:05,720
And so that measure, that metric
for men of achieving providing 

380
00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:09,160
still exists, right? 
And if you don't have clear 

381
00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:11,840
pathways because you are less 
likely, you have less 

382
00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:14,520
opportunity. 
You're a working class white 

383
00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:18,360
British guy from, you know, a 
struggling sink estate on either

384
00:21:18,360 --> 00:21:21,760
in a city or on one of the kind 
of dormitory on the outskirts of

385
00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:23,640
London, right? 
There's not a lot of opportunity

386
00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:25,480
for you there. 
There's not a lot of work, 

387
00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,040
secure work. 
You know, you've not achieved 

388
00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:32,080
educationally in school 
academically the way you would 

389
00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:34,160
want to. 
You don't have access to lots of

390
00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:37,200
social networks that can get you
into work and that can develop 

391
00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:39,120
you. 
So you're going to kind of make 

392
00:21:39,120 --> 00:21:42,640
the most of the opportunities 
that are laid before you and to 

393
00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:46,920
keep yourself safe from people 
in your own area. 

394
00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:50,440
From this idea that if you're 
different, you're an outlier and

395
00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:54,240
you're a problem, you might 
adopt ideas and present in ways 

396
00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:56,880
that are not actually true to 
yourself or true to your 

397
00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:58,560
beliefs. 
Because it's actually can be 

398
00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:02,720
risky to break out of what the 
traditional mold should be, you 

399
00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:05,640
know, and that is compounded 
sometimes by race and by 

400
00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:07,640
culture. 
I can't see a pathway for many 

401
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:09,680
of the young men we work with 
when we're saying stay in 

402
00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:11,200
school, get your education, get 
a job. 

403
00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:13,280
Why I can never afford a home in
London. 

404
00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:16,880
How am I as a single man on the 
kind of jobs I can get? 

405
00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,440
Look where I live, houses are 
like nearly £1,000,000 for 

406
00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:21,920
two-bedroom flat. 
What's, what am I going to do? 

407
00:22:22,120 --> 00:22:24,400
So there's a degree of 
hopelessness where there's this 

408
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:27,480
sense that they sometimes think 
I'm going to give up, you know, 

409
00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:30,760
people not interested in my 
voice, people like me. 

410
00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:32,920
And I've heard this from a boy 
in school as well, which was 

411
00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:37,120
really disheartening. 
People like me, we hustle, we do

412
00:22:37,120 --> 00:22:39,920
Rd. that's what we do. 
And it was really disheartening 

413
00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:43,040
for me. 
It was grown, you know, in a, 

414
00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:46,080
what would be deemed a black a 
part of London in the city, 

415
00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:47,720
London, one of the centres of 
black culture. 

416
00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:50,040
I'm, I'm the South London Lamb 
Bridge, the boy originally. 

417
00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:52,720
So, you know, we had riots to 
protest and to gather 

418
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:56,440
collectively to try and bring 
about change doesn't exist in 

419
00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:58,880
the same way. 
They feel disempowered. 

420
00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:02,680
So they give up a little bit and
fall to this lowest common 

421
00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:05,840
denominator. 
So money, class, race, they're 

422
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:09,400
all problematic. 
You, if you've got a positive 

423
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:11,840
kind of support network around 
any of those things, you can 

424
00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:14,200
break that ceiling. 
You can be the outlier that we 

425
00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:17,640
spoke about earlier on that we 
want everyone to be, but we have

426
00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:19,800
to understand and accept that 
that is unusual. 

427
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:23,360
That's some, you know, it's less
likely statistically that you're

428
00:23:23,360 --> 00:23:26,840
going to go and achieve a, a 
career in the city or go on to 

429
00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:29,000
become a great academic or an 
engineer. 

430
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:32,480
If you come from a sink estate 
and go to a state school and in 

431
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:36,480
in a London, if you're black, if
you've got a name, a surname 

432
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:39,520
that sounds funny when you write
it down on on a job application 

433
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,200
to an employer, you're less 
likely to even get an interview.

434
00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:45,800
That's still statistically true.
So all of those factors start to

435
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:48,000
wear boys down. 
They become very aware of this 

436
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,480
very early on in their lives, 
and it can be problematic. 

437
00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:53,840
You know, the last thing I said 
for our gift to Chris is is, you

438
00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:57,160
know, we've got a lot of love 
for boys in our society when 

439
00:23:57,160 --> 00:23:59,720
they're small and cute. 
And they get to this point. 

440
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:02,320
Jolie, I don't know how old your
son he was referring to earlier 

441
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:03,480
on. 
But given the questions he was 

442
00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:05,680
asking, they get to this point 
where, you know, they start to 

443
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:08,720
emit smells. 
They become a bit surly. 

444
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,040
They wear their hood. 
They get a bit of bum fluff on 

445
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:12,920
their chin. 
And you walk down them past the 

446
00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:15,480
road, and they probably saw the 
lovely little boys they were the

447
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:18,320
year previously. 
But they started to affect this 

448
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:22,520
outward persona to kind of 
protect themselves from its 

449
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:26,280
insecurity and from the real 
risk that other boys and young 

450
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:30,160
men or authorities that might be
the police, it might be your 

451
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:33,600
head teacher at school are going
to notice you and take advantage

452
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,040
of you. 
So the only way I know to shield

453
00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:38,640
myself from that is to present 
like I know everything, that I'm

454
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:40,680
confident and no one can mess 
with me. 

455
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:45,200
I want to, I mean, again, Owen, 
Owen is the most eloquent person

456
00:24:45,360 --> 00:24:48,160
you can ever meet, right? 
And, and he combines, he 

457
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:52,000
combines strong and dealt with 
strong statistical background. 

458
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:56,400
I just want to pick up though, 
on he really highlights this 

459
00:24:56,400 --> 00:25:01,840
challenge of older men speaking 
to younger boys, older men who 

460
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:05,680
may have the status that is the 
result of educational 

461
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:10,960
attainment, job satisfaction, 
career development, house 

462
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:14,960
potentially, family potentially.
And then trying to communicate 

463
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:20,720
to boys that, oh, you don't need
to fulfill the dominant norms of

464
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:22,920
masculinity. 
Oh, it's fine for you to say 

465
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:24,840
you've already got all this 
stuff, right. 

466
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:27,600
So how it's it's a real 
challenge. 

467
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:31,720
How do you say to somebody 
status is not as important as 

468
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:35,240
you think it is from people who 
already have it? 

469
00:25:35,360 --> 00:25:40,040
This is a it's, it's a paradox. 
The other thing I wanted to 

470
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:44,040
break pick up on is also that 
there is a really unseen 

471
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:48,600
privilege in this world, which 
is coming from a loving, caring 

472
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:54,600
family that doesn't that they 
can sit inside any type of norm 

473
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:56,960
around socio economic 
background. 

474
00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,080
You could have loving parents 
who are not very well off, who 

475
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,120
are not necessarily very 
educated. 

476
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,680
But if they listen to you in a 
non judgmental way, if they're 

477
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:09,360
curious about your world, if 
they're offering guidance as 

478
00:26:09,360 --> 00:26:15,640
opposed to do this, if they're 
saying things like it's very 

479
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:19,560
difficult for me to advise or 
guide you in in this world 

480
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,080
because that's your world. 
I come from a different world. 

481
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,040
So let's think about what this 
looks like together. 

482
00:26:25,360 --> 00:26:30,240
This is a massive privilege if 
you want to use that term that 

483
00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:35,040
is unseen because we don't. 
We don't cut intersectionality 

484
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:37,200
like that. 
Definitely agree. 

485
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,200
I want to go to to talking about
the engaging boys and how you do

486
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:42,080
this. 
I remember very many years ago, 

487
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:47,040
maybe I was 25, I was invited to
speak to a group of year six 

488
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:50,560
boys in Edmonton, quite a rough 
school in Edmonton and they were

489
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:53,200
going off to year 7. 
And so I was brought in to speak

490
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:56,240
to these boys and they put three
classes together. 

491
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:59,480
There's about 60 kids and I 
remember walking in and they 

492
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:03,320
just sat there and just stared 
at me, were like impressed me. 

493
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:05,000
And all they asked at the 
beginning was What Car do you 

494
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:06,960
drive and what football team do 
you support? 

495
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:10,720
And I had to work so hard to 
kind of get their respect. 

496
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:13,520
So they listen to me And when I 
sold some stories and let them 

497
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,600
know that I'm not from their 
area, but I have a similar, had 

498
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,520
a similar life to them, they 
kind of loosened up a little bit

499
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:21,200
and two hours later we got 
somewhere. 

500
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:23,800
But it was tricky. 
And now that work I do with 

501
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:26,480
adults is so much easier because
adults generally will give you 

502
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:30,200
that respect to the beginning. 
So talk to us about tools and 

503
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:31,720
techniques. 
There's so many parents that 

504
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:33,960
listen, so many practitioners 
that listen to this podcast. 

505
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:37,960
They'll be really interested to 
hear about how you open up kind 

506
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,440
of productive conversations 
about masculinity with young 

507
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,360
boys. 
Well, I, I'm going to, I'm going

508
00:27:44,360 --> 00:27:47,280
to use the platform you've given
me, Elliot, to blow my own 

509
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:52,720
trumpet for a bit and to unveil 
my, my super talent. 

510
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:59,280
So I, I, I've been a body popper
for 25 years. 

511
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:02,840
I've competed, I've traveled, 
I've done shows and, and I want 

512
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:05,640
to be very clear, this is not 
general advice, okay? 

513
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:06,880
This is not. 
This is not. 

514
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:09,240
I'm just highlighting. 
Case studies. 

515
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:15,080
Yeah, it's I'm highlighting a 
tool and I go to schools and I 

516
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:18,880
do with a with a colleague of 
mine and we do a show, an 

517
00:28:19,120 --> 00:28:24,360
assembly and we very clear to 
the school, do not introduce us.

518
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:27,960
We're standing there, put the 
music on, we dance, right. 

519
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:33,800
So that's that captivates them. 
After that, I tell them about a 

520
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:37,400
tricky moment in my life when my
dad, when I was younger, he had 

521
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,760
a life changing stroke. 
And I talk about how life was 

522
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,200
very fuzzy for a couple of 
weeks. 

523
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:46,760
And then the things I did to 
move away from that and to build

524
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:50,240
more safety and security. 
And how it never, it didn't 

525
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:54,200
change the actual circumstances 
I was facing with my brother and

526
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:58,920
my mom, but it gave us more 
resource to, to, to sort of 

527
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:02,560
carry on. 
And then we talk about the five 

528
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:05,640
ways to well-being. 
And we do some, some, some, 

529
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,920
some, some pre work around 
support in the school, in their 

530
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:12,320
local community. 
And we signpost towards safe and

531
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:17,360
secure online spaces. 
So this is a very quick, punchy 

532
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:22,160
way of grabbing attention, using
that attention for discussions 

533
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:24,440
around vulnerability. 
Management conflicts. 

534
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:26,080
The king part. 
Yeah, because, well, you know, 

535
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,320
he could. 
Flick arises all of the time 

536
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:31,080
where it could be a home about 
getting up and getting to school

537
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:32,400
in the morning. 
Once you get to school, the 

538
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:33,600
teacher asked you about 
lateness. 

539
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:38,160
You've got a peer, you know 
you've got a group of girls that

540
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:40,600
are taking the Mickey out of the
trainers you're wearing that 

541
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:43,240
day. 
How do you manage that conflict?

542
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:46,440
How do you manage that feeling 
of insecurity and being got AT 

543
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:48,680
and all the rest of it? 
How do you build resilience? 

544
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:50,880
So resilience doesn't mean I'm 
just going to put up with it. 

545
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:52,320
This is my station, I'm staying 
here. 

546
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,160
We're saying be aspiration. 
We want to help build this idea 

547
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:58,760
that I can achieve more but put 
in a scientific approach to 

548
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:01,320
build critical thinkers so that 
they work out. 

549
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:05,200
How do I get from here to there 
whilst maintaining my 

550
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:07,080
well-being? 
We participated with the Open 

551
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:09,440
University and this piece of 
research around male role models

552
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:11,400
because a lot, there's a lot of 
talk in the moment about how 

553
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,240
important male role models are 
to boys and young men and we 

554
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:17,000
need to have positive people. 
And I think to Chris's point 

555
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,520
earlier on, sometimes young men 
find it hard to engage with role

556
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:21,880
models because they're already 
successful. 

557
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:25,600
So I tell the famous people or 
sports people, whilst it's great

558
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:30,080
to see yourself represented in 
imagery and in pop or in 

559
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:32,760
positions of power, what I say 
is is that we've got enough 

560
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:35,960
footballers and boxers and 
singers and rappers, there's 

561
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:37,240
nothing wrong with that, That's 
great. 

562
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:39,640
But I say to the young people, 
do you not notice they're over 

563
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:41,600
represented in those areas of 
work? 

564
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:43,920
Why is that? 
And I look into the history of 

565
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:46,880
minstrelism and black people 
performing for people whatever 

566
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:48,640
to empower them. 
Not to say that you need to be 

567
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:52,440
radical and empty the society, 
but tell me where you see the 

568
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:57,160
next black Boeing pilot or 
lawyer or High Court Circuit 

569
00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:59,920
Judge or we're starting to see 
that movement in society now. 

570
00:30:59,920 --> 00:31:03,960
So you can draw on different 
models, but the point is, boys 

571
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,560
don't need a man who looks like 
them to tell them how to be a 

572
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:07,920
man. 
It's useful. 

573
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:09,840
It's one of the tools that helps
them in their lives. 

574
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:12,080
But what we seem to say to 
mothers who don't have a 

575
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:14,800
positive male role model in the 
household is that you could 

576
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:18,560
still raise a great boy who's 
empathetic, who's understanding,

577
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:21,440
who is going to be happy within 
himself. 

578
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:24,440
If you present that parenting 
model that Chris kind of really 

579
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,480
loosely outlined there of being 
a caring, understanding, 

580
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,400
engaged, attached and involved 
parent. 

581
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:34,000
The challenges around kind of 
engaging boys is just around 

582
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:38,040
listening to them, showing them 
you care about their situation 

583
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:40,920
and the circumstances they're 
in, giving them the space and 

584
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:43,520
the time to get. 
We used to have in one of our 

585
00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,080
models, it's called venturing, 
which is a really cheap 

586
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:49,320
bastardization of the word 
mentoring with time to vent 

587
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:51,240
first. 
You can't mentor someone who's 

588
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,120
not had a chance to express 
themselves and say what my issue

589
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:56,000
is. 
The boy said, look, if I'm in 

590
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,240
crisis, I don't care. 
I don't care if it's someone 

591
00:31:58,240 --> 00:31:59,680
who's posh. 
I don't care if it's someone 

592
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:01,280
who's poor, black, white man, 
woman. 

593
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:04,320
If they care about me and I know
they're on my side, that's 

594
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:06,480
enough. 
If you're going to go and do it 

595
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,880
a generic engagement piece, you 
might, it might be quicker to 

596
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:13,160
break down barriers if you use a
device like Chris does. 

597
00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:15,800
You know, there's two dudes 
they've started dancing these 

598
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:17,640
middle-aged men. 
Oh, they look, quite frankly, 

599
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:21,520
I'll talk to these guys, you 
know, But if you don't have 

600
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:25,000
those skill sets up your sleeve,
and I left that skill set 

601
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,200
probably when you started more 
than 25 years ago, it's called 

602
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:30,400
blind. 
But I'm not willing to go and 

603
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,520
dance in front of an assembly 
hall full of teenagers anymore. 

604
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:36,680
Those days are done for me. 
So I have to use conversation. 

605
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:38,120
I have to show an interest in 
them. 

606
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:40,160
They're human beings like 
everybody else. 

607
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:44,520
And you will find with men and 
boys, even though we are kind of

608
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:48,320
conditioned to go Oh yeah, I 
don't really chat as your model 

609
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,520
of work, Elliot free music, 
football, fatherhood kind of 

610
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:52,840
shows. 
If you find the right subjects 

611
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:55,280
to get men started talking 
about, we've become quite 

612
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:57,600
effusive. 
Powerful Well I've just put a 

613
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:00,840
body pop in class starts 
tomorrow 1212 weeks intensive 

614
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,160
course. 
So Chris, I'm available, I'm 

615
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:11,440
available. 
We've spoken quite a lot about 

616
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:14,560
the conversation that is 
happening about men and boys. 

617
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:17,320
We're having the conversation 
which is really, really good and

618
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:20,960
there is so much conversation 
about masculinity and the need 

619
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:25,240
for it to be redefined. 
Do you have a a model 7 

620
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:28,720
characteristics that contribute 
to positive masculinity? 

621
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:32,400
Talk to us a little bit about 
what those 7 characteristics are

622
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:36,160
and also what you think can be 
achieved through that model as 

623
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,200
well. 
So a recap of what the seven 

624
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:44,440
characteristics are and we use a
mnemonic device of memory aid 

625
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:50,480
called the nice triple Rs. 
N for non violence, I for 

626
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:55,440
inclusiveness, C for curiosity, 
E for empathy. 

627
00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:59,280
And then the triple Rs are 
resourcefulness, resilience and 

628
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:03,480
reflectiveness. 
What makes us unique and why 

629
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:05,880
I've been here so long and why I
love this organization is if we 

630
00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:09,199
support kind of boys, I mean, at
these transitional key moments 

631
00:34:09,199 --> 00:34:11,560
in their lives, these these 
teachable moments where that's 

632
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:14,199
becoming a dad, leaving, moving 
from primary to secondary 

633
00:34:14,199 --> 00:34:17,440
school, exploring your 
community, breaking, trying to 

634
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:19,159
make that natural breakaway from
your parents. 

635
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:22,400
There's this moment where 
they're more susceptible, more 

636
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,000
open to the accepting help or 
seeking help, right? 

637
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,440
We have to utilize that moment. 
And so we've developed loads of 

638
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:32,360
different types of programs over
the years to engage boys and men

639
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:35,360
at different, wherever you may 
find them in their lives. 

640
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:38,199
You know, we might have been 
doing a program that looked kind

641
00:34:38,199 --> 00:34:40,719
of the racial dynamics down in 
the state in southeast London 

642
00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:43,520
near Thamesmead, Eltham, where 
there's been a long history, if 

643
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:46,320
you know Stephen Lawrence and 
Rowland Adams, of racial 

644
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,120
disharmony and violence, right? 
And we were going down there to 

645
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:53,120
do a project with young white 
men who had been subject to 

646
00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:55,760
racially aggravated kind of 
criminal charges. 

647
00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:59,240
And our our view was, you know, 
you don't just exclude these 

648
00:34:59,240 --> 00:35:01,400
guys or leave it for the 
judicial system to work with 

649
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:02,480
them. 
Someone needs to sit down with 

650
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,640
these guys and explore why they 
found themselves in this 

651
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:07,520
situation. 
What really are your beliefs? 

652
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:10,240
Why do you feel what these 
differences actually are? 

653
00:35:10,240 --> 00:35:13,040
There opportunities for us to 
bring young men from different 

654
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:15,120
communities together to show 
them what they've got in common,

655
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:17,800
to build bridges between 
communities rather than just sit

656
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:18,960
back and go. 
I don't like the views he 

657
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:22,440
espoused, so he shall forever be
blotted from my landscape. 

658
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:25,760
No, you know, we, we have to 
have this kind of communal 

659
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:27,520
approach to want to solve 
problems. 

660
00:35:27,720 --> 00:35:30,920
We're saying whatever kind of 
man you want to be, look at the 

661
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:34,680
context of where you live, the 
people you interact with, the 

662
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:39,120
the agreed kind of norms across 
society which end up as being 

663
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:43,480
laws and rules and social taboos
and try and find a way to fit 

664
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:45,320
within them. 
Because you're never happier. 

665
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:48,240
As you said at the beginning 
earlier more fulfilled life. 

666
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:50,920
If you can put yourself in the 
position of other people rather 

667
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:54,080
than just feel sorry for them, 
you might change some of your 

668
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:56,080
behaviours because you can 
imagine what it'd be like for 

669
00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:58,640
that to happen to you or someone
you love. 

670
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:01,080
If you just feel sympathy, you 
can just dismiss people, go, Oh 

671
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:02,880
yeah, it's terrible that 
happened to them, but hey, 

672
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:05,400
that's life. 
If you empathize with them, you 

673
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:08,880
go, oh God, that should never 
happen again to someone else. 

674
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:10,920
What can we do to stop that 
happening? 

675
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:13,160
And I'm definitely not going to 
contribute to doing that to 

676
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:15,600
anyone else because I would hate
for someone to do that to me, 

677
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:17,520
you know? 
So I think you're, you're 

678
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:21,040
helping develop these soft 
skills, these human skills that 

679
00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:24,240
are not being developed as part 
of normal society. 

680
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:27,200
Family frameworks have changed. 
You know, you don't have your 

681
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:29,240
aunt and your cousin and 
everyone living on the same St. 

682
00:36:29,240 --> 00:36:30,880
as you're in the same little 
neighborhood now. 

683
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:34,440
We're all very remote and it 
changes the social contract and 

684
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:37,640
the dynamic between us all, so 
we're having to step in. 

685
00:36:37,720 --> 00:36:41,280
We're choosing to step in and 
create these models and create 

686
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:45,280
these frameworks to help boys. 
Can I just draw out 11 quick 

687
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:47,760
point about the, the, the, the 
seven characteristics? 

688
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:52,160
Because I think when you create 
frameworks, it's, it's really 

689
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:54,240
important to bring that into the
self. 

690
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:58,680
And when I deliver the Future 
Dads course, which is an A1 day 

691
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:02,240
antenatal course delivered in 
certain hospitals in, in London,

692
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:07,040
where we're upskilling fathers 
to be around sort of practical 

693
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:10,840
care and stuff, but we also do a
lot of discussion work around 

694
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:12,480
what type of father they want to
be. 

695
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:16,200
When I'm talking about the 
characteristics, the, the most 

696
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:20,000
powerful framing I've found thus
far is to say to them, imagine 

697
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:23,160
how you would feel as their 
father if they exemplified these

698
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:25,720
things. 
And then that gets them to 

699
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:28,720
really think, oh wow, those 7 
characteristics, they're, 

700
00:37:28,720 --> 00:37:31,800
they're really powerful. 
Because if I could, if, if, if 

701
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:37,080
my child exemplifies these types
of traits, then that means, you 

702
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:41,240
know, myself, my partner, my 
child, all in, in, in a family 

703
00:37:41,240 --> 00:37:43,400
environment have done really, 
really well. 

704
00:37:43,720 --> 00:37:47,080
So I just want to share that 
framing of those characteristics

705
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:49,480
so that that people can imbibe 
that. 

706
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:52,600
Amazing insight. 
I could talk to you all day, 

707
00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:55,360
literally. 
We have to get you back at some 

708
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:57,480
point because there's so much 
information and insights you've 

709
00:37:57,480 --> 00:37:59,680
got to share. 
I want to kind of close off by 

710
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:03,440
going to some solutions and 
actions and it's a two-part 

711
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,720
question really. 
The first part is around what do

712
00:38:06,720 --> 00:38:11,280
you think can be done at a high 
government policy level, process

713
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:14,520
systems change level to 
positively impact the 

714
00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:17,280
conversation we've had around 
men, boys, gender equality more 

715
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:21,040
widely. 
And secondly, around for 

716
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:24,800
parents, parents who are maybe 
concerned about their their boys

717
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:28,320
behaviour or just understand the
world we're living in and want 

718
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:32,200
to equip them with the knowledge
and tools to be healthy boys who

719
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:35,760
grow into into healthy men. 
So your advice? 

720
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:37,120
First, let's start with the 
government level. 

721
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:38,640
Is there anything that you think
could be done? 

722
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:40,040
We spoke about the paternity 
leave. 

723
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:42,760
What else do you think our 
Labour government now should be 

724
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:46,800
looking at doing? 
Well, I, I, I think that it the,

725
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:51,480
in the area of father's 
fatherhood, that's an area where

726
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:55,280
there, there might genuinely be 
a rights issue there because 

727
00:38:55,280 --> 00:39:01,120
there are gaps in, in policy 
that disadvantage fathers who 

728
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:05,680
want to be engaged to support 
their partners for, for their, 

729
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:08,120
for their partners, for their, 
for their health, their mental 

730
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:12,360
health advancing in their 
career, but also for their 

731
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:16,240
fathers and their mental health 
and their longevity and, and, 

732
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:18,760
and to model of fatherhood going
forward. 

733
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:22,600
So I mentioned paternity leave. 
There is also a potential gap in

734
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:29,080
the, the Equality Act of 2010 
where whether it's framed as 

735
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:32,720
fathers or whether it's framed 
as, as carers, that's for, for 

736
00:39:32,720 --> 00:39:37,320
discussion, but that there isn't
a representation of fatherhood 

737
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:41,080
within the Equality Act of 2010 
mental health screening. 

738
00:39:41,240 --> 00:39:45,760
Now, of course, any individual 
father can exercise their agency

739
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:48,600
to go and find out what about 
mental health support in their 

740
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:52,080
area. 
But as, as a de facto right, 

741
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:56,400
that doesn't exist for fathers. 
It's only through the prism of 

742
00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:59,360
the mental health status of 
their, their partners. 

743
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:02,760
And we, we see that as, as an 
area for discussion. 

744
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:08,640
And, and, and so these, these 
types of areas then don't allow 

745
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:13,200
for this distillation of, of new
norms of masculinity going 

746
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:17,560
forward other areas. 
School exclusion is a particular

747
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:21,760
area looking at school 
attainment so that we can look 

748
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:26,520
at how to support boys to to, to
move away from behaviors that 

749
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:28,320
will put them at risk of 
exclusion. 

750
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:31,240
Because I don't want to sit here
and say, you know, that there 

751
00:40:31,240 --> 00:40:34,600
aren't situations where the 
behaviors of boys at least 

752
00:40:34,720 --> 00:40:38,480
highlight an area to be 
addressed because that would be 

753
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:42,000
a lie, right? 
But how we look at them, how we 

754
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:45,000
address them, that needs to be 
looked at the system. 

755
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:50,160
And then also, so thinking about
this ongoing deficit in terms of

756
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:53,080
school attainment and 
educational attainment and be 

757
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:57,400
reflective on our system to 
understand what is going on. 

758
00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:01,560
We hear Richard Reeves talk 
about this a lot in in American 

759
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:04,000
context. 
We need to be taught having that

760
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:06,400
same conversation in Auk 
context. 

761
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:08,200
Those are two areas I wanted to 
highlight. 

762
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:11,960
I think to follow that up, I 
think, you know, we've been 

763
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:14,160
involved in the APPG for 
fatherhood for a long time and 

764
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:17,200
have covered many issues there. 
You know, there are issues 

765
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:19,840
attached to the way family law 
is set up or private law is set 

766
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:23,760
up in this country which both 
hampers and harms women and men.

767
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:27,920
You know, this expectation that 
there is one primary carer and 

768
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:31,160
that's where support goes. 
In Scandinavia they've got a 

769
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:34,640
different assumption around 
parenting rights and even rights

770
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:38,120
again is that the Health 50 
language responsibilities I 

771
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:39,920
think is a much healthy way to 
frame it. 

772
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:42,880
And children's rights as adults,
we've got responsibilities to 

773
00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:44,760
children to help enforce their 
rights. 

774
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:47,440
There are parental rights you 
have, there's a, but there's 

775
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:50,640
parental responsibility. 
So let's enable people to fulfil

776
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:53,160
their responsibility, you know, 
around men and boys and between 

777
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:54,800
our fathers. 
What there is, is a lack of 

778
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:57,480
data. 
Elliot, you know, people are not

779
00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:02,320
capturing data about men in 
their health, their well-being 

780
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:04,880
and in their status as fathers. 
No, you know, there is no 

781
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:08,640
uniform or statutory capturing. 
The only services that I'm aware

782
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:11,240
of, the statutorily capture data
are about fathers of the prison 

783
00:42:11,240 --> 00:42:13,440
service. 
So every man who goes to prison,

784
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:15,800
they ask you if you're a dad to 
sort out your own visiting 

785
00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:18,080
arrangements or whatever social 
pestoral support they have to 

786
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:21,000
give in. 
And then if you don't come to, 

787
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:23,040
if you go through a relationship
breakdown, you don't come to 

788
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:25,880
agree with yourself, then the 
Child Maintenance Service will 

789
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:29,080
get involved in your life. 
And again, I was at the launch 

790
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:32,720
of a report into changing that 
system, the Gingerbread funded 

791
00:42:32,720 --> 00:42:35,240
through Jazz Roundtree. 
We were on the Advisory Board 

792
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:36,880
supported by a lot of 
parliamentarians. 

793
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:38,560
But no one's happy with that 
system. 

794
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:42,080
The women who are not not 
getting the support they for 

795
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:43,800
their children that they deserve
are unhappy. 

796
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:47,760
The non resident parents, often 
men are not happy either with 

797
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:49,400
the system and are saying, look,
it's not clear. 

798
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:50,760
I'm not sure what I'm supposed 
to be providing. 

799
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:52,960
I want to provide. 
And for some men that we 

800
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:56,920
support, who maybe are not the 
most socio economically 

801
00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:01,680
affluent, people were saying, 
look, I'm working really hard, 

802
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:03,280
I'm giving everything I can 
afford. 

803
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:07,200
But my children there, there 
seems to be no correlation. 

804
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:09,240
The government only cares about 
me if I'm doing stuff wrong or 

805
00:43:09,240 --> 00:43:12,600
if I'm not paying, if I don't 
get to see my children or if 

806
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:16,320
I've got concerns or if I need 
help, no one cares, right? 

807
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:19,400
So I think we need to change 
that social dynamic and that 

808
00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:21,640
construct. 
I think whatever we do at our 

809
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:25,560
high level governmentally is 
about holding people accountable

810
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:28,240
for what we want to actually 
deliver in terms of support. 

811
00:43:28,240 --> 00:43:31,520
So I hope with the current 
stripe of government they look 

812
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:34,520
at family hubs over the long 
term, they look at models of 

813
00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:37,800
support for people right from 
antenatal all the way through 

814
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:39,960
it. 
So this idea is research shows 

815
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:43,120
that the the earlier men form an
attachment to their children, 

816
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:46,000
the more likely they are to stay
positively involved throughout 

817
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:48,920
the life course, the more likely
they are to be able to negotiate

818
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:51,480
with the mothers of their 
children in a relationship or 

819
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:53,480
not about what's best for their 
children moving forward. 

820
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:54,960
And that's what we all want to 
see. 

821
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:58,520
But more than law, we need 
guidance, We need to do 

822
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:00,360
training. 
We need to empower people to 

823
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:04,840
understand the positive impacts 
of engaging men for their 

824
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:08,680
children, for women, for the 
economy, for everyone. 

825
00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:13,040
You know, the deficit costs of 
managing the fallout of 

826
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:18,040
unsupported, uneducated, unhappy
men is huge to society. 

827
00:44:18,720 --> 00:44:22,000
We need to take a prevention 
rather than a cure approach to 

828
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:24,120
the issues that are well 
documented and out there. 

829
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:26,800
You know, even in London, you 
know, knife crime and violence, 

830
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:28,800
Scotland have taken a public 
health approach. 

831
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:30,480
Why aren't we doing that in in 
England? 

832
00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:33,360
You know, is there something 
about the narrative the press 

833
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:36,520
like to promote that we see 
youth violence as a very ethnic 

834
00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:40,320
issue, whereas in Scotland the 
demographics are different so 

835
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:42,000
that that that isn't part of the
narrative. 

836
00:44:42,240 --> 00:44:46,000
We know this is endemic working 
class Scottish white boys, 

837
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:47,600
right? 
We don't want it to happen. 

838
00:44:47,720 --> 00:44:49,800
We want stop it. 
Let's look it as a public health

839
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:52,080
issue. 
I feel as though, and I don't 

840
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:55,360
have proof of this. 
So this is my views and my views

841
00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:58,600
only, but for a long time that 
he just elbows today meeting 

842
00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:01,200
with the King talking about 
knife crime and rounding off the

843
00:45:01,200 --> 00:45:05,720
end of kitchen knife look whilst
that may help right and I I'm 

844
00:45:05,720 --> 00:45:09,800
all for anything that helps. 
Why aren't we putting in, you 

845
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:12,920
know, approaches that realize 
we're meet not meeting the needs

846
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:14,160
of boys and young men in 
society? 

847
00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:16,960
School can't do it by itself. 
Parents can't do it by itself. 

848
00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:18,760
Why haven't we got a youth 
sector anymore? 

849
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:21,880
Yeah. 
And what would you say to what 

850
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:24,760
would you say to those parents? 
So the parents listening now who

851
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:28,280
have been probably fascinated by
this conversation, hopefully 

852
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:31,400
feeling inspired, positive, but 
also very aware of the the 

853
00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:33,960
issues. 
What would your tipping advice 

854
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:37,720
be for parents to nurture their 
their boys in a healthy way? 

855
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:40,800
I mean, it's, it's very 
difficult, obviously, to speak 

856
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:44,760
to any individual parent. 
I, I mean, so, so the, the, the,

857
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:47,800
the, the, the stuff I'm going to
talk about is quite generic. 

858
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:51,400
And, and I don't want anybody to
be offended by the idea that I'm

859
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:53,520
not hearing their particular 
story. 

860
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:56,920
I can't hear all their stories. 
But I come back to those 

861
00:45:56,920 --> 00:46:03,880
characteristics and the idea of 
inspiring I'm, I'm a father, I 

862
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:07,720
have two, two daughters and my 
sensitivities as they're growing

863
00:46:07,720 --> 00:46:11,360
up are increasing. 
But at at times I have to hold 

864
00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:17,880
back and try to take a more 
detached or kind of 35,000 feet 

865
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:21,080
type of view in terms of the 
risks to them. 

866
00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:25,200
And they, they, they, they have 
certain characteristics around 

867
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:27,680
them that make them more 
protected than others. 

868
00:46:28,240 --> 00:46:32,680
But that doesn't stop them 
having sort of psychosocial 

869
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:36,560
challenges. 
But again, being curious, being 

870
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:39,760
resourceful, supporting them to 
develop all these skills for 

871
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:43,680
themselves and listening from a 
non judgmental point of view, 

872
00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:48,680
sharing my own vulnerabilities 
appropriately, not sort of 

873
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:51,680
turning around and saying, oh, 
you think you've got problems. 

874
00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:54,680
Listen to me monster.com style. 
It's not about that. 

875
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:58,040
It's about very much sort of 
saying, well, I like I said 

876
00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:00,360
earlier, I, I don't know your 
world. 

877
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:03,720
I'm curious about your world. 
Tell me about your world. 

878
00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:08,600
And also going from a, a more 
promotion perspective, tell me, 

879
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:11,120
tell me about the music that 
you're listening to, because I 

880
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:15,040
can be very informative. 
Tell, tell me, tell me what, 

881
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:18,200
what, what platforms you're on? 
What are you hearing? 

882
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:22,360
What did what's interesting you 
so that this is all very generic

883
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:26,360
type of investigate yourself and
your immediate response. 

884
00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:30,240
Take the moment to breathe in 
and out, because it can be very 

885
00:47:30,240 --> 00:47:32,600
easy to come out with a 
triggered response. 

886
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:36,400
But take that moment to to to to
to sit in your chair, feel 

887
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:40,600
yourself in your chair and then 
exercise curiosity and non 

888
00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:43,080
judgmentalism. 
Summarize what you've heard. 

889
00:47:43,240 --> 00:47:46,360
Make sure that you're actually 
hearing what they have said 

890
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:51,480
because the act of the act of 
listening is maybe one step 

891
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:54,240
removed from actually sort of or
the act of hearing is that step 

892
00:47:54,240 --> 00:47:57,360
removed from listening and 
understanding, you know, reflect

893
00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:00,600
that back to them. 
The only things I would add from

894
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:06,840
a parenting point of view would 
be just be unafraid to be 

895
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:09,880
vulnerable as a parent. 
With your peers, with your 

896
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:12,400
friends, with your children 
themselves. 

897
00:48:12,720 --> 00:48:16,720
Let them know you know, if their
behaviour upsets you or 

898
00:48:16,720 --> 00:48:19,560
disappoints you, You know it's 
not we've got to be a negative 

899
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:21,440
shower. 
But you have to put all those 

900
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:23,560
supportive things that Chris 
described in place, that 

901
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:25,320
curiosity, that interest in 
their lives. 

902
00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:29,480
But what children want from as 
small as they can be right 

903
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:32,720
through to when they leave you 
eventually, hopefully one day 

904
00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:36,560
are some boundaries. 
You know they need the framework

905
00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:38,560
for society now they'll back 
against it. 

906
00:48:38,720 --> 00:48:40,240
That's what they're supposed to 
do. 

907
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:42,040
They'll challenge you at every 
turn. 

908
00:48:42,240 --> 00:48:44,360
That's what they're supposed to 
do, right? 

909
00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:48,760
But you will find, as I found 
with my oldest child is not a 

910
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:52,840
boy, but they eventually start 
to give back to you what you put

911
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:54,760
into them. 
Or just as I'm sure you found, 

912
00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:57,000
you sound like your dad 
sometimes when you're talking to

913
00:48:57,080 --> 00:48:59,440
kids or Jolie, You sound like 
your mum sometimes when you're 

914
00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:02,240
talking to your kids. 
Go Oh my God, this is I heard 

915
00:49:02,240 --> 00:49:03,920
this 20 years ago. 
Why? 

916
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:06,280
You know, I found myself telling
my kids, these are the happiest 

917
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:08,680
years of your life. 
School's the best years of your 

918
00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:10,000
life. 
You should enjoy it. 

919
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:12,480
You know, when I when they told 
me that when I was a little boy.

920
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:15,800
Mum, I'm not going to swear at 
you, but please do 1 you know, 

921
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:17,640
it's a nightmare. 
You don't know what it's like 

922
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:20,520
pressure every day. 
So look, but go obscure 

923
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:22,600
yourself. 
I I'm making the case to someone

924
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:25,520
who supports parents. 
Listen, why isn't every parent 

925
00:49:25,520 --> 00:49:27,520
in this country offered some 
parental education? 

926
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:31,000
You know, you wouldn't go and 
try and fix your car without a 

927
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:33,280
course in in basic car 
maintenance or a manual. 

928
00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:34,880
Where's the manual on 
parenthood? 

929
00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:36,720
There isn't one. 
In fact there are several. 

930
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:38,960
There are loads of different 
models for parenting. 

931
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:42,240
Maybe come and do a course, you 
know, find out about. 

932
00:49:42,240 --> 00:49:44,040
You can do it online. 
There are different models 

933
00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:46,240
depending on your cultural 
context and how old your 

934
00:49:46,240 --> 00:49:48,600
children are and particularly 
issues your children might be 

935
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:51,080
facing. 
You know, talk to other parents 

936
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:54,200
at the school gates, be part of 
a community, understand what's 

937
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:56,360
not only going on for your 
children, but their peer group. 

938
00:49:56,680 --> 00:49:57,920
You know, there, there's this 
power. 

939
00:49:58,080 --> 00:50:01,040
There's nothing more than that 
your adolescent kids hate than 

940
00:50:01,040 --> 00:50:02,920
knowing that you talk to the 
other kids parents and to your 

941
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:04,920
friends. 
Damn it. 

942
00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:07,400
Damn it. 
This has been amazing. 

943
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:10,280
Seriously, Like we could do 
another podcast. 

944
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:13,160
There's enough to say you've 
been incredible. 

945
00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:15,040
We the world needs more Chris 
and Owens I think. 

946
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:17,440
I think the world needs more 
Chris and Owens. 

947
00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:19,600
Like 1 is enough one. 
Is enough. 

948
00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:22,120
I'm sure we've. 
Yeah, I know we can like, you 

949
00:50:22,120 --> 00:50:24,000
know, duplicate you both. 
I'm sure we'll make it happen. 

950
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:25,920
But now this has been 
incredible. 

951
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:29,440
Seriously, so much insight. 
And I think for us to speak to 

952
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:32,040
people who are doing the work, 
you know, you guys are actually 

953
00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:34,320
on the ground, You're speaking 
to many employees all the time. 

954
00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:37,040
And so the insight that you will
have is so invaluable. 

955
00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:39,520
And so I just want to say thank 
you first and foremost for 

956
00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:43,560
taking time out in your busy 
schedules to sit down to share 

957
00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:45,440
your your knowledge and insights
and stories of us. 

958
00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:48,680
Thank you so much. 
We have so much love and respect

959
00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:50,760
for the work you do and we're 
always here. 

960
00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:54,200
So thank you, Chris, thank you, 
Owen, Thank you so much. 

961
00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:55,200
Thank. 
You. 

962
00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:55,800
Thank you.