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Welcome back to the To Be a Boy 
podcast with Elliot Ray and 

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Jodie Brady. 
This episode is sponsored by 

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Coral Kids, the UK's leading 
after school nanny marketplace. 

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There's a huge conversation 
happening right now, not just 

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amongst parents, but in 
governments, school and the 

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media across the world. 
The question is being asked, 

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should social media be banned 
for under sixteens? 

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Australia has already passed the
legislation, Spain and Portugal 

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are considering similar moves 
and here in the UK the debate 

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has reached government 
consultation. 

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For many young people, social 
media is central to friendship, 

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identity, status and belonging. 
But it can also bring extreme 

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and widely damaging downsides, 
such as increased bullying, poor

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mental health and isolation. 
And as parents, we are left 

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trying to work out how to keep 
our children safe online while 

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helping them thrive offline. 
So everyone agrees on the goal. 

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We want to keep our children 
safe, resilient and well. 

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But there's deep disagreement 
about the solution. 

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We'll be having a conversation 
with Kanishka Narayan, the 

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online Safety minister, about 
what the government is 

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considering and the consultation
that is currently live. 

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First, we are joined by two 
leading voices with very 

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different perspectives for an 
open and honest conversation 

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about how we move forward as a 
country and as parents, how we 

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navigate all of this. 
We have Sonia Livingstone from 

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the NSC who is against the ban 
and Doctor Susie Davis from 

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Papaya Talks and Smartphone Free
Childhood who is in favour of a 

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ban. 
So we are. 

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Super excited for this 
conversation. 

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We have Sonia and Susie here who
are going to take us through 

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their opinions and their views 
on whether we should have a 

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social media ban for under 16 in
the UK. 

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So let's get into it. 
I'm going to ask you both to 

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introduce yourselves so the 
audience know they are listening

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to some real experts and who 
have been doing the work and 

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have informed opinions. 
So Sonia, who are you? 

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What do you do? 
Hi, I'm a professor of social 

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psychology at the London School 
of Economics. 

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I lead a small research centre 
called Digital Features for 

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Children with the Five Rights 
Foundation and I've spent years 

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doing research directly with 
young people, sometimes young 

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people specifically with mental 
health problems and with their 

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families and at school. 
And my focus is always on how 

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the digital environment is 
always changing and always in 

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need of our attention. 
Incredible. 

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Thank you so much for joining 
us. 

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Sonia. 
Susie, over to you. 

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Hi, I'm Doctor Susie Davies, I'm
an NHSGP and my story really 

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began 8 years ago when I took a 
job at student Health services 

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at Bristol University and I saw 
the really poor mental health of

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students suffering from 
insomnia, acting disorders, self

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harm and that year we lost. 
Sadly in 2018 Bristol lost eight

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students to suicide. 
So I became personally and 

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profoundly impacted by the poor 
mental health of young people 

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and got really curious as to why
and started to see very, very 

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often this relationship between 
poor tech habits and young 

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people mental health. 
And at exactly the same moment, 

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my daughter who was in year 6, 
was asking me for a smartphone. 

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So I gathered a community of 
parents to delay the first 

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smartphone together and we set 
up the charity Papaya, which is 

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parents against phone addiction 
in young adolescents. 

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So I've been working on that for
eight years with lots and lots 

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of young people hearing their 
views and helping young people 

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make an informed choice about 
their relationship with tech. 

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And I've also written a book for
teenagers called The Healthy 

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Selfie to again help them 
develop that healthy 

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relationship with themselves and
their technical devices. 

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Amazing. 
So we should listen to you both 

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because you've got a lot of 
knowledge to give us. 

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So opening statements if you 
like. 

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Should social media be banned 
for under sixteens? 

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Yes and no. 
And why? 

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Sonia, let's hear from you 
first. 

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What do you think? 
So my going to argue for no, 

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social media should not be 
banned. 

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But that doesn't mean that I 
think social media is great. 

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And I think my argument is 
really founded on listening to 

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children and young people over 
the years and trying to 

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understand how important for 
them the digital world is, how 

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much for them they feel 
themselves to be the kind of The

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Pioneers and those who are 
growing up in a world which is 

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not going away, which they want 
to understand and which they 

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think many adults don't grasp 
very well. 

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Clearly, what research shows, 
and I could cite lots of it, is 

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that there are lots of harms 
linked to social media and there

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are lots of benefits. 
So my argument is not everything

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is fine in the world of social 
media, and actually many things 

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are getting worse in the world 
of social media. 

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Still, young people, when we see
the polls are generally saying 

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it's an important place for 
them, where they get their, 

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where they see their friends 
first and foremost, where they 

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kind of keep up with the world 
and what's happening in it and 

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where they relax, have fun, gain
help, find people who kind of 

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get them, who understand them. 
And we have, I think what's 

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really important to understand 
is over the years that we've all

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pivoted, many people have 
pivoted to social media. 

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We have kind of redefined our 
society outside the world of 

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social media. 
And I think that's especially to

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do with the pandemic. 
So we do not as a society 

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provide a lot of flexibility and
opportunities for children and 

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young people to meet their 
friends outside school in the 

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evenings on a wet February 
afternoon when we don't want to 

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let them go out. 
We have cut back on youth 

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spaces. 
We don't welcome young people at

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bus stops and in in shopping 
malls. 

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We have pushed them to social 
media and at the same time we 

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have in this country done 
something super important, which

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is to bring in a number of 
pieces of regulation which are 

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not sufficient, not completely 
implemented, but have taken an 

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enormous amount of effort and 
debate. 

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And my priority is that we 
really make the regulation 

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stick. 
We really make sure that we have

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the evidence base to know what 
is working and what is not 

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working and that we recognize 
and provide the support for very

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vulnerable young people that 
they need, which is not going to

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come just by turning them away 
from their friends and cutting 

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them off information. 
It's going to come by properly 

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funding our mental health 
services. 

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It's going to come by having a 
clear understanding of where 

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some young people are at risk 
and advising parents, but most 

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of all of regulating the big 
tech companies that are pushing 

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the problems, also providing 
many of the benefits that young 

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people really. 
So I could say more about kind 

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of findings and research, but 
maybe that gives you a sense 

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that I'm not, I'm not all for it
for social media. 

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I'm super worried about some of 
the things that are happening, 

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but I don't see that just 
turning it off is going to 

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provide young people with the 
world they need, that gives them

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the connections that they that 
are vital for them to thrive. 

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Thanks, Sonia. 
And we've got we're going to get

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into a lot of the points that 
you've made there, especially 

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resonate with the kind of 
children not being in the real 

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world. 
We pushed them online. 

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I definitely resonate with that 
in my own life and my with my 

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own family. 
So thank you so much. 

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Susie question, should social 
media be banned for under 

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sixteens, yes or no? 
And why? 

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What do you think? 
So yes, I am going to argue for 

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raising the age of digital 
consent to 16. 

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And the reason for that is 
thinking about the context in 

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which social media is actually 
set at 13. 

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It wasn't experts who set this 
age. 

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It hadn't been well thought 
through. 

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It was actually from a 1998 data
privacy law set in America as 

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the minimum age that tech 
companies can sell and harvest 

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our young people's data without 
parental consent. 

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Now Fast forward 30 years and 
the Internet is a completely 

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different place to it was when 
this law was set. 

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There wasn't even social media 
set 30 years ago. 

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There were no addictive 
algorithms and certainly the 

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terms cyber bullying, sextortion
and grooming hadn't even been 

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coined. 
And then let's think about the 

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Internet now that our children 
are inhabiting. 

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And this is where the problem 
lies. 

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It is addictive by design. 
Tech companies have invested 

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billions of dollars making 
social media as addictive as 

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possible. 
And I think we can all see that 

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ourselves. 
You know, we can start scrolling

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on our phones and you can lose 
20-30 minutes without even and 

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thinking or noticing. 
But our young people are losing 

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on average 2 to 4 hours every 
day to social media alone. 

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And the minority of them are 
losing 5 hours or more. 

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But it's not just the time that 
they're losing. 

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And often young people tell me 
they're actually horrified when 

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they realize they've lost the 
hours they should be revising to

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their phones. 
It's not just the time, it's the

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content that they're viewing. 
We know the online comparison is

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making young people less happy 
with their own lives and it's 

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causing them to feel less 
satisfied, lower their mood and 

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suffer from more anxiety. 
There's also the impact on their

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sleep. 
Preteens are losing on average 

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one night's sleep per week to 
social media. 

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I would feel awful if I was 
losing that much sleep every 

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week. 
They're exposed to pornography 

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with the average 12 year old 
being exposed to pornography for

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the first time was doing their 
homework. 

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And the idea for me that this 
exposure is worth the risk for 

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freedom online for both adults 
and children is something that 

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as a parent and and health 
professional, I actually can't 

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comprehend. 
And then also there's the 

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predatory risk, which is 
becoming much, much greater with

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grooming and sextortion having 
an eightfold increase in just 

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one year from 22 to 23. 
And it's getting worse all the 

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time. 
I also want to just mention the 

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context of being a 13 year old. 
Self esteem we know is lowest in

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early adolescence. 
So just at the moment, young 

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people are more self aware, 
struggling with their own self 

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identity. 
They're being exposed to this 

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content. 
Their prefrontal cortex, the bit

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of their brain responsible for 
decision making and impulse 

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control, is not yet fully 
developed. 

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So the real question is, is the 
current age of 13 adequate? 

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When we think about the exposure
our young people have to harm 

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and their development mental 
ability, and I think the answer 

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clearly is no, that our young 
people, we just need to give 

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them more time, more time to 
develop, more time to be more 

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time to enjoy the real world. 
And delaying social media to 16 

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would give them would give them 
that. 

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I can feel my body tensing up 
when you're talking about the 

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amount of time lost to social 
media every day. 

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You know, when you put it like 
that, it's really compelling. 

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Let's talk about mental health. 
So it's mental health evidence. 

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Sonia, I've got a question for 
you. 

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So we've had years of data 
linking heavy social media used 

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to anxiety, depression and self 
harm. 

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I know from speaking to many 
parents, given this information 

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we have about mental health, 
they feel like banning it is a 

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no brainer because it's harmful.
And if something is that 

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harmful, it feels right to just 
take it away. 

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So given that evidence around 
social media, what are your 

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thoughts on whether a ban would 
work in regards to kind of 

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addressing those issues? 
I think we should come to the 

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question of whether a ban would 
work as a kind of separate 

241
00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:14,200
thing. 
I, I think the point I'd like to

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00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:19,080
question in what you just said 
is how much the social media, 

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the time spent on social media 
is the cause of the mental 

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health problems that young 
people are facing. 

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So we've had lots of studies and
I don't want to kind of argue 

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about, you know, we can argue 
about the, the kind of insurance

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00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:34,360
and outs of the different 
studies, but my summary would be

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that the, the kind of causal 
direction goes both ways. 

249
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So there's evidence that if 
young people use more social 

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00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:44,960
media, overall their mental 
health is a little worse. 

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But there are kind of UPS and, 
you know, there are benefits as 

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00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:50,520
well. 
It's a kind of a small finding, 

253
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but also that the young people 
with mental health difficulties 

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tend to tend to social media. 
Maybe they don't have friends, 

255
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maybe they can't talk to parents
because they've got problems 

256
00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:03,600
that they want to research. 
And the algorithms, which can be

257
00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:05,600
pernicious and which I 
absolutely think should be 

258
00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:09,920
regulated, then can push them 
down a problematic rabbit hole. 

259
00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:14,600
So all of that is to say that 
the role of social media in 

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young people's mental health 
difficulties is, I would say, 

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kind of modern. 
And there are other causes of 

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mental health problems that our 
young people are facing, of 

263
00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:27,400
which the number one, according 
to the Good Childhood Report, 

264
00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:30,320
actually is academic pressure. 
And I'm amazed that we don't 

265
00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:33,640
have podcasts on how to reduce 
the academic pressures on our 

266
00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:37,480
children in a world in which the
their future is really 

267
00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:40,680
uncertain, their financial, 
their confidence again to earn 

268
00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:42,080
enough money. 
You know, there are a lot of 

269
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pressures on young people. 
The pandemic made everything 

270
00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:47,400
worse. 
It introduced a lot of family 

271
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conflict, family difficulties 
and worries about the cost of 

272
00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:53,920
living and so on. 
So I'm just really concerned 

273
00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:58,320
that we somehow centre on social
media as like the presenting 

274
00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:00,800
problem, the thing in front of 
us, a child's looking at a 

275
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screen, and think that by 
banning it, we're going to solve

276
00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:06,600
all of those problems in 
children's lives because we're 

277
00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:08,880
not. 
And I would love us to broaden 

278
00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:11,840
the conversation, say if we're 
worried about our young people's

279
00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:14,920
mental health, which we should 
be, let us think about the 

280
00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:16,720
different things that we can be 
doing. 

281
00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:21,160
Funding mental health support 
services, as I'm sure and Susie 

282
00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:25,120
would agree, has, has really 
crashed and is really a priority

283
00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:28,080
because we have young people 
waiting on the waiting list so 

284
00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:30,440
long. 
So yes, social media is part of 

285
00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:32,520
the mix. 
Is it the answer to everything 

286
00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:34,320
and it's banning it the answer 
to everything? 

287
00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:37,160
Absolutely not. 
And that's why I want a broader 

288
00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:40,800
conversation that kind of really
centres young people and their 

289
00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:44,880
needs in a, in a what's become a
bit of a kind of polarized, too 

290
00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:47,160
polarized debate. 
There will be no simple 

291
00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:48,880
solutions. 
What do you think? 

292
00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:51,920
Is social media the cause of 
this poor mental health or is it

293
00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:53,600
a chicken leg situation? 
What comes first? 

294
00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:58,920
Well, I would say as AGP, what I
am seeing every single day is 

295
00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:02,920
young people in mental health 
crisis and I can often directly 

296
00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:04,760
attribute it to their social 
media use. 

297
00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:08,920
So just yesterday saw a 16 year 
old who had had hate crime 

298
00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:10,720
online. 
She'd actually had to move out 

299
00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:12,960
of her family home. 
She was on the cusp of of 

300
00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:15,200
homelessness. 
She was severely, severely 

301
00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:18,040
depressed. 
Now obviously society is complex

302
00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:20,400
and I agree with Sonia, there 
are many problems. 

303
00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:24,000
But our young people's access to
social media is something we can

304
00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:27,200
fix and we can change. 
And This is why as parents and 

305
00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:30,360
healthcare professionals, we 
feel so passionately about it 

306
00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:34,960
because every single day we are 
trying to fix people who, who 

307
00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:37,160
are broken. 
And I would rather see money 

308
00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:40,240
invested in preventative 
services than spending all our 

309
00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:44,120
resources on cams trying to fix 
young people who are broken. 

310
00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:48,240
So of course, it's complex. 
Of course society is a is a hard

311
00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:51,760
place for young people to fry. 
But the thing that has changed, 

312
00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:54,480
or one of the main things that 
has changed in the last decade 

313
00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:57,840
is that our young people are 
losing 2 to 4 hours every single

314
00:16:57,840 --> 00:16:59,480
day. 
They're spending that time 

315
00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:01,480
comparing themselves to others 
online. 

316
00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:04,520
They're being exposed to 
horrific content. 

317
00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:08,520
I see young people with PTSD, 
with trauma from the content 

318
00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:10,599
that they've seen online. 
As I've mentioned, they're 

319
00:17:10,599 --> 00:17:13,680
losing sleep and sleep is the 
foundation of good mental 

320
00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:15,480
health. 
And I've met young people who've

321
00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:18,599
managed to cut back their social
media time, who've managed to 

322
00:17:18,599 --> 00:17:20,599
replace it with positive 
activities. 

323
00:17:20,599 --> 00:17:24,160
It is about replacement and they
have been so much better. 

324
00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:27,280
You know, I can see them beaming
at me as they come into their GP

325
00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:30,880
surgeries and you know, doctor, 
I did it, I deleted TikTok. 

326
00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:33,600
I've been to the park for my 
friends and I feel so much 

327
00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:35,240
better. 
And that was obviously that's a 

328
00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:40,120
really oversimplistic view, but 
day in, day out, I'm seeing the 

329
00:17:40,120 --> 00:17:42,520
problem and I think it does work
both ways. 

330
00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:45,520
It is cause and effect. 
But actually both are equally 

331
00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:47,600
worrying, aren't they? 
If it's causing the mental 

332
00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:50,720
health problems or if it's 
exacerbating pre-existing mental

333
00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:54,360
health problems, Both are 
damaging our young people and 

334
00:17:54,360 --> 00:17:57,520
our young people need every 
little bit of help that they can

335
00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:01,440
get to thrive in today's age. 
And I think we are not helping 

336
00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:04,320
them by giving them unlimited 
access to these harmful 

337
00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:06,480
products. 
Can I come back? 

338
00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:11,840
So I think I absolutely hear 
you, Susie, about the pain that 

339
00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:14,160
walks in through your consulting
room. 

340
00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:17,200
And I think there are many young
people who are struggling with 

341
00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:20,360
all kinds of things, including 
their social media use. 

342
00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:24,760
I do not spend all my time with 
young people, but quite 

343
00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:27,600
frequently I go into schools, I 
go into homes, I talk to young 

344
00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:30,400
people. 
And I don't just talk to those 

345
00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:33,760
who are in extremists. 
I talk to those who are don't 

346
00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:36,760
need to go to the Doctor Who are
fine, who are getting on with 

347
00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:41,560
their school work, who are happy
in their in their daily life. 

348
00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:45,720
And so I hear a wide range and 
that's I think what the research

349
00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:49,480
hears from when also in surveys,
you know, we survey a 

350
00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:51,360
representative sample of the 
population. 

351
00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:54,800
Somehow we need a way of 
thinking about those who are in 

352
00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:59,960
extremists and the many young 
people that I talked to who say 

353
00:19:00,120 --> 00:19:02,400
they've been to a bit of a 
sticky patch and they've figured

354
00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:04,480
it out for themselves and now 
they're OK. 

355
00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:08,160
Or they have their particular 
interests and they kind of know 

356
00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:12,360
how to play the algorithm and 
find their friends and talk to 

357
00:19:12,360 --> 00:19:16,640
their friends about whatever it 
is and not lose hours or lose 

358
00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:19,840
enormous amounts of sleep. 
So I find young people, I talk 

359
00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:22,760
to young people who in the main,
and this is what research tells 

360
00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:26,080
us, the majority, so hard to 
weigh the majority against the 

361
00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:29,560
vulnerable similarity. 
But I hear from very many young 

362
00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:33,400
people who feel that it's a 
difficult world in many ways and

363
00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:35,840
it's a world full of 
opportunities in many ways. 

364
00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:39,960
And by the age of 16 they are 
finding their way. 

365
00:19:40,120 --> 00:19:43,160
So I would not have very young 
children on social media. 

366
00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:46,680
I actually think if we could 
enforce that age of 13, that 

367
00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:48,760
would be good. 
We haven't managed to, but if we

368
00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:52,280
did, that would be good. 
But in those adolescent years, 

369
00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:55,240
that's when young people are the
agents who feel that they are 

370
00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:59,200
finding their way in their 
digital world and very many of 

371
00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:02,120
them are managing it. 
And they don't want to have that

372
00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:05,120
kind of denied them that They 
feel that this is a resilience 

373
00:20:05,120 --> 00:20:06,720
that they have, they have 
gained. 

374
00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:09,320
And they don't call it losing 2 
to 4 hours a day. 

375
00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:13,240
They admit that they lose half 
an hour or a bit of time to the 

376
00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:16,000
algorithms, but they also think 
they're up to date with the 

377
00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:17,360
news. 
They're in touch with their 

378
00:20:17,360 --> 00:20:20,440
friends, they've got the latest 
funny meme, they know what the a

379
00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:23,320
good joke is to share the next 
day in school, and maybe they've

380
00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:26,160
watched some YouTube videos 
about how to solve their maths 

381
00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:28,040
problems. 
That they're struggling with. 

382
00:20:28,120 --> 00:20:30,240
That's the mix that they tell me
about. 

383
00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:33,920
Can I say I just think that's an
idealistic view of what young 

384
00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:37,920
people are experiencing online. 
We could debate about this, but 

385
00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:41,080
I also think this is not a 
minority of people who are 

386
00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:42,240
struggling with their mental 
health. 

387
00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:45,240
I don't think there's an adult 
listening to this podcast who 

388
00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:48,360
doesn't know a young person in 
mental health crisis, whether 

389
00:20:48,360 --> 00:20:51,560
it's your own child and niece or
nephew or child you teach at 

390
00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:53,560
school. 
And that is something a decade 

391
00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:57,680
ago I couldn't have imagined. 
Saying something is not working 

392
00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:01,760
for our children, and I truly 
believe it's correlated to what 

393
00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:03,720
they're exposed to on the 
Internet. 

394
00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:07,240
On the Internet, that we could 
discuss that one all day. 

395
00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:09,320
We'll move. 
On just separately to mental 

396
00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:13,880
health that my kids are 10 and 
12 and they do sometimes go on 

397
00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:16,640
YouTube and more recently 
they've been saying things like 

398
00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:19,680
I don't want to go to school 
because education is pointless. 

399
00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:23,000
It doesn't teach me anything 
that is going to be useful to me

400
00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:25,000
when I leave school. 
And they've clearly got that 

401
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:28,600
messaging from videos they've 
watched on social media or from 

402
00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:31,200
friends at school that watch 
something on social media. 

403
00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:34,920
That's one of the reasons why I 
think banning social media until

404
00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:38,680
the age of 16 could be 
beneficial is not necessarily 

405
00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:40,520
that I think it's going to be 
bad for their mental health. 

406
00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:43,840
It's some of these messages that
they're being drip fed that I 

407
00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:46,720
think a bit could be really 
damaging to them long term. 

408
00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:48,520
What would your thoughts on that
be Sonia? 

409
00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:52,560
Social media, YouTube, it's got 
everything on it and young 

410
00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,200
people are finding all kinds of 
different content. 

411
00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:59,680
All I can say is when we have 
the representative surveys that 

412
00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:03,320
ask every, you know, every child
has a fair chance of being 

413
00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:06,360
included in, rather than just 
those who could have put up the 

414
00:22:06,360 --> 00:22:10,600
hand and say I've got a problem.
Then we get an enormous range of

415
00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:13,200
experience and it is not 
idealistic. 

416
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,720
There are many young people who 
say they are turning to YouTube 

417
00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:21,040
to help them with their homework
or to see the news or to know 

418
00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:24,560
what is happening in their their
neighborhood or just to have 

419
00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:28,440
something funny to relax with 
because you know I that is what 

420
00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:30,600
they value. 
There are many young people who 

421
00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:35,440
are using the different 
platforms in such a diversity of

422
00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:38,120
ways that I really, I think it 
does a disservice to young 

423
00:22:38,120 --> 00:22:41,240
people to put them all in the 
one box, to say they're having a

424
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:43,960
common experience. 
There are gamers, there are 

425
00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:47,800
coders, there are fans of 
particular kinds of music. 

426
00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:51,120
There are those who are trying 
to kind of create something. 

427
00:22:51,120 --> 00:22:54,680
There are those who just want to
chill out for an hour or two 

428
00:22:55,120 --> 00:22:58,400
instead of watching telly with 
mum and dad, which was never 

429
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:02,480
actually always wonderful. 
Children live very diversely. 

430
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,880
I just don't see how we can put 
them in one box and say the 

431
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,240
experience is common for 
everyone and therefore the 

432
00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:09,920
solution is the same. 
Thank you. 

433
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:12,080
This is really good. 
Let's move on to the darker 

434
00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:15,280
Internet risk. 
So, Susie, a lot of people who 

435
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:19,280
are kind of against the ban, 
they say that if we ban social 

436
00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:22,080
media, so a lot of the 
mainstream apps, you know, like 

437
00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:25,200
TikTok, etcetera. 
If we ban those, then we'll just

438
00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:28,720
push young people onto more 
unregulated parts of the 

439
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,360
Internet, parts of the Internet 
where potentially the the 

440
00:23:31,360 --> 00:23:33,920
content is worse that we don't 
even know about. 

441
00:23:34,120 --> 00:23:37,360
And that actually banning social
media in that way could just 

442
00:23:37,360 --> 00:23:39,960
make it worse because young 
people will still have phones 

443
00:23:40,120 --> 00:23:43,760
and they'll still have access to
platforms and communication with

444
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:47,200
strangers and all that stuff. 
So what do you think about that 

445
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:50,160
dark Internet risk that that 
could potentially come with a 

446
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:51,040
social media? 
Ban. 

447
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:52,960
Thank you. 
It's a really good question and 

448
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,160
I think what we need to look 
about is how that ban actually 

449
00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:59,400
functions, how it works. 
So I would want to see a ban 

450
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:04,120
based on the features, function 
and usage of social media rather

451
00:24:04,120 --> 00:24:07,400
than specific sites. 
So actually you look at what are

452
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:11,000
the features that are unsafe for
under sixteens like the infinite

453
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,040
scroll, persuasive design, 
geolocation. 

454
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:18,040
And actually you have a dynamic 
ban where sites can move in and 

455
00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:19,800
out because of the features 
they've got. 

456
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,240
So this would mean all of those 
lesser known sites would be 

457
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:25,440
included in the ban. 
If they have their wiring 

458
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:27,880
features. 
It would also include wiring 

459
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:30,560
platforms like Roblox and 
Discord. 

460
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:33,640
It would also force social 
media, but if they wanted to 

461
00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:36,280
have access to under 16 year 
olds, they would have to 

462
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:41,040
completely redesign the 
features, the persuasive design 

463
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,880
features of their social media 
apps to make them safer. 

464
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:46,960
So secondly, if we watch 
Australia, we have an experiment

465
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:49,200
in progress. 
There's currently no evidence 

466
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:52,240
that children are moving 
underground, although there is 

467
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,320
evidence both here and in 
Australia more children 

468
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:58,840
downloading VPNs which are 
virtual private networks. 

469
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,840
So I think for a ban to work, we
have to look at also banning 

470
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:06,920
VPNs in the under eighteens to, 
to coincide with the ban. 

471
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:10,120
And also I think parental 
support for this is absolutely 

472
00:25:10,120 --> 00:25:13,720
key. 
A recent You Gov poll said 74% 

473
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:15,640
of parents were in support of a 
ban. 

474
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:20,320
So if you've got 3/4 of parents 
working with the government to 

475
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:23,560
try and get their children off 
social media, it's going to 

476
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,360
change the societal norm and 
it's going to make make it much 

477
00:25:26,360 --> 00:25:28,600
easier. 
The ban empowers parents. 

478
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:32,440
It's actually a huge gift to 
parents because it takes away 

479
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:34,880
that I've got to give it to my 
child because everyone else has 

480
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,400
got it. 
So it is complex. 

481
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:40,680
I agree, a ban on its own is not
enough. 

482
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:44,080
We need to work with parents, we
need to work with the students, 

483
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,480
with the children, and we need 
to look at access to VPNs at the

484
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:50,120
same time to avoid that problem.
Any thoughts on that, Sonia, in 

485
00:25:50,120 --> 00:25:51,560
regards to the darker Internet 
risk? 

486
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:53,280
Is that something that you've 
been considering? 

487
00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:57,040
I think we, I absolutely want to
see the, the published results 

488
00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:59,280
of the Australia experiment in 
progress. 

489
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:03,280
My understanding of the early 
results emerging is that there 

490
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:08,120
was a initial surge in use of 
VPNs and that's that's tailed 

491
00:26:08,120 --> 00:26:12,600
off and that there is absolutely
a surge to using turning to 

492
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:17,240
Roblox and to Discord and to a 
number of other platforms that 

493
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:19,680
weren't included in the in the 
banned list. 

494
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,640
So looking at that from young 
people's point of view, they're 

495
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,520
looking for somewhere to go and 
perhaps like water, they will 

496
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:28,360
find it. 
I don't actually think they'll 

497
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:30,440
go in enormous numbers on the 
dark web. 

498
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:34,560
I think they are more sensible 
and that they too are cautious 

499
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:37,960
and self protective. 
But I do think they will find 

500
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,360
places to connect with their 
friends to have fun. 

501
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,800
And that's our societal dilemma.
How are we going to provide 

502
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,040
those places for young people 
when we are so scared to let 

503
00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:51,000
them, let them go out? 
A survey of 70,000 British 

504
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:55,280
children in the last month said 
86% do not want to ban. 

505
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:58,760
We can say children don't know 
what's good for them or we can 

506
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:03,760
think what is it that 86% of 
children this is aged from 7 to 

507
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:05,960
16? 
What are they telling us about 

508
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,120
social media? 
I think many of them are 

509
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,320
figuring out their way. 
Do they want regulation? 

510
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,840
Absolutely yes. 
Do they want the addictive and 

511
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:16,720
persuasive design features dealt
with? 

512
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:20,520
Absolutely yes. 
Do they want the worst excesses 

513
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:22,640
of the content taken out? 
Yes. 

514
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:25,280
Do they want a good place to go 
when something goes wrong? 

515
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:26,800
Yes. 
You know, they're not. 

516
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,840
They're not daft, but they don't
want to be excluded. 

517
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:33,280
They want the platforms to be 
regulated, not them to be 

518
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:37,280
restricted themselves. 
So part part of me in thinking 

519
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:39,920
about this thinks about social 
media, but thinks wider than 

520
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:43,400
just social media and thinks 
more about kind of smartphones 

521
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:47,400
overall and just the fact that 
we are losing kids to the screen

522
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:50,040
and the scroll, whatever the app
is. 

523
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,760
And part of me is thinking is, 
is social media the problem? 

524
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:55,440
Are we too focused on social 
media here is just our 

525
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:58,400
relationship, our relationships,
but our children's relationships

526
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:00,880
with our phones actually more of
the issue. 

527
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:03,440
And Sonia, you touched on it 
earlier around, you know, if we 

528
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,400
take social media away, how are 
we going to support those 

529
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:08,960
children doing things in the 
real world? 

530
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,320
So Susie, a question to you. 
Do you think a social media ban 

531
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:16,520
actually solves the issues 
around mental health, isolation,

532
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:20,320
self harm, etcetera? 
Or is it a wider problem around 

533
00:28:20,360 --> 00:28:24,080
addiction to screen time, 
addiction to phones and the way 

534
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:27,760
we have socialized young people 
out of society? 

535
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:29,840
And how do we encourage other 
things? 

536
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,800
More sport, more community, more
real world connection? 

537
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,080
What are your thoughts on on the
core of the problem here? 

538
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,720
Is it social media or is it just
kind of phones and smartphones? 

539
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:40,600
I would agree with all of those 
points, yes. 

540
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,400
You know, it really is about the
phone because it's not a phone, 

541
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:45,400
is it? 
It's a any computer in our 

542
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:49,120
pocket with most of us 24/7. 
The phone is obviously the 

543
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:51,600
mechanism with which young 
people can download these 

544
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,240
harmful and addictive apps that 
we talk about. 

545
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:56,080
So I don't just worry about 
social media. 

546
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:59,040
But as you said, you know, we 
live in a world where it's so 

547
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:01,560
easy to disconnect. 
You can do your shopping online.

548
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:03,600
You can even contact your doctor
online. 

549
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:06,800
You can book an Uber. 
Life is just too convenient. 

550
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:10,320
And I think children, they 
desperately need friction to 

551
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,040
grow. 
They need challenge to develop 

552
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:15,480
and they need failure to grow 
resilience. 

553
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:18,880
But you can't learn that from 
the 2 dimensions of a screen in 

554
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:21,320
your bedroom. 
You know, my daughter keeps 

555
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,120
getting at the bus stop without 
any money. 

556
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:26,360
She keeps having to art, you 
know, negotiate with the bus 

557
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:29,480
driver to let her on the bus. 
You know, that is about learning

558
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,240
resilience. 
Or I ended up in Munich last 

559
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,040
week. 
My phone wasn't working and I 

560
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:37,320
had to speak, practice a little 
bit of German, speak to some 

561
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:39,640
people to find my way out to to 
a hotel. 

562
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:43,360
These are really great life 
skills that you do not learn if 

563
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:45,120
you have an app. 
My head could have been down on 

564
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:47,440
Google Maps. 
I wouldn't have met some lovely 

565
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:49,680
people who'd guided me around 
their city. 

566
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,560
And you know, we've seen that 13
to 17 year old colds, according 

567
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:55,760
to the World Health 
Organization, are the loneliest 

568
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:58,200
in society. 
You know, they are really, 

569
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:00,840
really struggling. 
As humans, we need to connect. 

570
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:05,000
We need to belong and we need to
find purpose in people and as 

571
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,720
humans. 
And the greatest irony I find is

572
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:11,240
that actually big tech social 
media is now offering the 

573
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:14,800
solution to loneliness in the 
form of chat box and AI 

574
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:17,720
companions. 
And you know, we let get so much

575
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:19,440
from the daily interactions of 
life. 

576
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,280
So the question is, is the phone
the problem? 

577
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:26,080
Yes, but 95% of it is about the 
social media. 

578
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:29,120
And if we have if we have a 
band, I would go further. 

579
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:32,000
Let's take off the web browser. 
Let's make sure our children 

580
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:34,920
don't have VPNs. 
And then let's focus on 

581
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:38,320
restoring childhood because 
children are 20% of our 

582
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:42,920
population, but they're 100% of 
our future and they deserve, you

583
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:44,480
know, the best childhood they 
they can have. 

584
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,320
They deserve parks, huge clubs, 
time outside. 

585
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:50,360
They deserve parents actually 
who are happy to let them go out

586
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,400
and let them take some risks 
because that is what childhood 

587
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:55,680
is about. 
That is what our children need, 

588
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:58,080
but they're not going to find it
whilst they're still glued to 

589
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:00,080
their devices. 
Yeah, it takes me back to many 

590
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,560
years as a young person being on
the train with no money. 

591
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,520
I'm just having to find my way 
through the barriers, you know? 

592
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:07,800
But yeah, many, many years doing
that and having to hustle. 

593
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,640
And I agree, you learn so much 
just being out in the real world

594
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:12,560
and having to negotiate and make
your way. 

595
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:14,480
So Sonia, I know you kind of you
kind of agree, agree on this. 

596
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:15,640
This is a point that we agree 
on. 

597
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,880
I think that we need to create 
more spaces for young people 

598
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:22,280
outside. 
I think we agree on children 

599
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:24,520
needing greater freedoms, 
children needing greater 

600
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:26,200
resources being provided for 
them. 

601
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:27,960
Children live incredibly local 
lives. 

602
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:30,400
You know, a bus journeys 
probably as far as they go by 

603
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:32,960
themselves. 
They need a park nearby, they 

604
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:35,520
need resources nearby, they need
youth clubs nearby and so on. 

605
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:39,360
And I'm still not going to agree
on the idea that it's the phone 

606
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:42,640
or the social media. 
So I think it's the business 

607
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:45,480
model of big Tech. 
And I think 2 points then that I

608
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:47,080
want to bring into this 
conversation. 

609
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:51,440
Firstly, if we just remove 
children from the digital world,

610
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:56,440
then Big Tech will be free to go
its merry way. 

611
00:31:56,520 --> 00:32:01,200
Children are the, at the moment,
the kind of very visible reason 

612
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:04,080
why Big Tech is being brought to
heel, being brought to 

613
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:06,480
attention. 
Fights that we're seeing from 

614
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,040
our regulators and from our 
governments in many countries 

615
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:12,520
around the world with the 
support of parents and the 

616
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:16,840
public, are the nearest we're 
coming to reining them in and 

617
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:20,880
regulating that business model 
that is so predatory and so much

618
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:24,160
putting profit before the best 
interests of children. 

619
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:27,120
If we take children, if we take 
smartphones out of their hands 

620
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,560
and we take the children off the
platforms, they will just carry 

621
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,240
on doing what they're doing, 
which is a problem actually for 

622
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:37,040
everybody, including children, 
because this is this is still 

623
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:40,360
tech in the hands of parents. 
This is still tech in the hands 

624
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:44,480
of the predators and the those 
who will still know where 

625
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:47,040
children are. 
We can't remove children from 

626
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:50,360
this world. 
And also, we will just wipe out 

627
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:54,440
all the benefits that we do 
genuinely think are part of a 

628
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:58,720
digital world, an information 
resource for everybody, enhanced

629
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:02,080
educational learning 
opportunities, ways for children

630
00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:06,080
with disabilities to overcome 
and, you know, access some of 

631
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,720
the constraints that society 
imposes around them. 

632
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:12,960
Where is our media and our kind 
of entertainment and leisure 

633
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:15,880
world, You know, so we can take 
children away. 

634
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:21,080
We will leave the digital world 
in a really problematic 

635
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:23,680
direction. 
And I think we're focusing on 

636
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:27,360
the problem today, which is the 
smartphone and the social media.

637
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:30,600
But tomorrow it's not going to 
be about screens. 

638
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:32,960
It's going to be about sensing 
environments. 

639
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:36,960
It's going to be about AI 
informed objects in, in our 

640
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:39,560
homes and already in our 
schools. 

641
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,880
We're, we're dealing with the 
almost yesterday's problem and 

642
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:49,720
all of that AI and AI enabled 
technologies that we're building

643
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:53,760
in children's environments are 
the same companies and the same 

644
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:57,720
predatory business model. 
And that is why we have to keep 

645
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:01,160
saying we need that to change 
and serve the interests of 

646
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:04,960
society, including children, not
just try to kind of put children

647
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:08,840
in some cotton wool space 
outside the world because the 

648
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:12,679
world it will still reach them. 
And the world right now is is is

649
00:34:12,679 --> 00:34:15,320
very much being redefined by big
tech. 

650
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:17,600
Can I just add in? 
I think the only way we're going

651
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:20,639
to change big tech is by really 
hitting their pockets. 

652
00:34:20,639 --> 00:34:25,159
And this feature based ban is 
the only thing that I think is 

653
00:34:25,159 --> 00:34:28,520
strong enough to force them to 
change their design models. 

654
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:33,280
Ofcom and their fines and 
regulation hasn't got enough 

655
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:35,840
power. 
It's like pennies to big tech 

656
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:37,280
the fines that they're being 
given. 

657
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:40,960
And so I think unless we force 
them to change their model, 

658
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:46,000
they've had a decade of harm, of
court battles, of all sorts of 

659
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:49,560
negative publicity and they are 
making minimal concessions. 

660
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:53,199
For example, a teen Instagram 
account, a stranger can no 

661
00:34:53,199 --> 00:34:56,400
longer contact a child. 
That is the sort of concessions 

662
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,440
that Meta are prepared to make. 
And I don't think that is going 

663
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,000
to change because of the money 
involved. 

664
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,360
This isn't about wrapping up our
kids in cotton wool, is actually

665
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:07,040
the opposite. 
It's about taking the cotton 

666
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:10,000
wool off and getting them back 
out into the real world. 

667
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:13,120
And it's the screens that are 
stopping them do it. 

668
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:17,480
I had a young boy in a workshop 
I ran just last week and 

669
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:19,360
actually he was on, he was 
gaming. 

670
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:22,560
He had lost all interest in the 
outside world. 

671
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:26,240
And at the end of my session 
with him he just said please 

672
00:35:26,240 --> 00:35:29,800
help me, I need help. 
I want to stop gaming but I 

673
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:31,440
can't now. 
If I'd asked him at the 

674
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:33,920
beginning of the session he 
would have said gaming and 

675
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:37,160
social media are my life, I 
don't have anything else that I 

676
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:40,520
do, I don't want anything else 
and I completely am against a 

677
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:42,840
ban. 
But just by spending time with 

678
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:46,640
him and asking, questioning his 
beliefs and how he spent his 

679
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:50,080
time just getting him to think 
about his use of tech meant that

680
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:54,840
he did a full 360 in just a one 
hour group session and we were 

681
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:57,640
able to help him. 
That is not the life he wanted 

682
00:35:57,640 --> 00:35:59,440
to lead. 
I don't believe he was making 

683
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:01,400
autonomous choices with his 
time. 

684
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:05,200
He was a addicted to gaming and 
the gaming was controlling him, 

685
00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:08,400
not him controlling the gaming. 
And these platforms are so 

686
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:12,640
unsafe for young people that 
without really huge safeguards 

687
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:16,120
in place, a generation of 
children are being lost. 

688
00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:20,200
That's, I mean as a mother of 
boys, I can attest to that being

689
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:23,000
a problem. 
Most mothers boys that I speak 

690
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:25,760
to say they have a real issue 
with their kids being addicted 

691
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:30,160
to gaming and I'm sure some 
parents of girls also have the 

692
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:31,920
same problem. 
It seems to be very prevalent 

693
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,400
amongst boys. 
But this ban wouldn't affect 

694
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:38,040
that, would it? 
Like that's separate issue which

695
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:40,200
is a big issue. 
It can include some of the 

696
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:42,800
gaming apps like Roblox or 
multiplayer games. 

697
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:46,200
Discord is particularly 
difficult with the private chat 

698
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:48,560
rooms they go into. 
So I think the ban could 

699
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:51,840
certainly clean up gaming. 
You know, we don't, again, we 

700
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:53,240
don't want to take our children 
off. 

701
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:54,840
You know, my son has got an 
Xbox. 

702
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:56,840
We don't want to take our 
children off gaming completely. 

703
00:36:56,840 --> 00:37:00,760
What we want is a safer where 
they're not exposed to strangers

704
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:04,560
and it's much less addictive by 
design, so just a much cleaner 

705
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:07,160
version of what we've got now. 
It's not about taking it all the

706
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:08,440
way, It's about giving them 
back. 

707
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:10,120
It's about giving them back 
their three choice. 

708
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:12,840
You know, it's about giving our 
young people their voice and 

709
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:15,320
their autonomy back with their 
time and how they spend it. 

710
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:19,280
I'd quite like to go back to 
Snake and Tetris, it's great. 

711
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:21,000
Again, Yeah, Nokia and a Game 
Boy. 

712
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:22,640
I'd love that. 
That was a great time. 

713
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:24,120
We didn't know. 
We didn't know what we had. 

714
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:28,080
Yeah, it was the. 
Golden Era Susie, you made a 

715
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:32,120
great case around the harms and 
many of us are aware of the 

716
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:33,480
harms. 
And I think what you see in your

717
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:36,280
practice, some of the young 
people in a very extreme 

718
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:39,760
circumstances, I think Sonia, 
have also made the case around 

719
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:42,360
some of the opportunity that 
social media can offer. 

720
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:45,240
And we've heard from parents of 
children with special 

721
00:37:45,240 --> 00:37:48,200
educational needs or children 
who have started businesses 

722
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:51,600
online, young people who have 
found their community activism, 

723
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:54,720
sense of belonging through 
social media. 

724
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:56,520
So what would you say to, to 
that? 

725
00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:58,200
Isn't there, is there, is there 
a trade off here? 

726
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:00,640
If we do cut off social media 
for under sixteens, are we also 

727
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:03,840
taking away some of the good 
fits? 

728
00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:06,600
And is that a price that I think
are we willing to pay that 

729
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:07,440
price? 
Is it worth it? 

730
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:10,440
I mean, I'd like to keep as much
of the good as possible and take

731
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:13,600
away the harm, but are 
particularly our boys are 

732
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:15,400
struggling the most with the 
online world. 

733
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:19,520
If we've got one in seven 
adolescent men not in education 

734
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:23,480
and not in work because our 
young men in particular, I think

735
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:26,760
missing out on their teen years,
the importance of risk taking. 

736
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:30,960
We've replaced the boys, you 
know, jumping into lakes and 

737
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:32,760
skateboarding and staying out 
later. 

738
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:34,640
So you know, it's a bit hair 
raising as a parent. 

739
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:38,800
But adolescent years of boys is 
about taking risks and learning 

740
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:42,400
how to take them safely. 
But now our young men, our boys,

741
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:45,400
our teenage boys are 
experiencing sofa culture, 

742
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:49,040
living in this 2D world. 
They don't get to experiment 

743
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:52,520
with the risks when risks don't 
matter, because actually online 

744
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:56,040
risk is often more serious than 
the offline risk because it's 

745
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:57,880
permanent. 
It leaves a permanent digital 

746
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:00,000
footprint. 
It's resulting in many boys 

747
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:03,320
being excluded from school and 
often unintentional or 

748
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:06,040
intentional criminality. 
Our boys aren't learning the 

749
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:09,200
social skills, the resilience, 
the conflict resolution that 

750
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:11,040
they learn in the real world. 
They're missing out on the 

751
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:14,480
excitement and the endorphins 
and the physicality of life. 

752
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:18,320
And instead they're developing 
this dopamine deficiency state 

753
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:21,480
where they're so used to the 
high dopamine from gaming and 

754
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:25,400
social media that it's actually 
less easy for them to enjoy the 

755
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:28,000
real world. 
And again, I've had particularly

756
00:39:28,240 --> 00:39:31,400
young boys in workshops say, why
can't I enjoy playing football 

757
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:33,840
anymore? 
Why do I only enjoy gaming or 

758
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:37,560
watching YouTube? 
Because they get so tolerant to 

759
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:42,280
this dopamine high and their 
world instead is just saturated 

760
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:45,800
with really horrific online 
content, which can be incredibly

761
00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:48,600
misogynistic, which again, as 
parents is a great, great 

762
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:51,240
concern. 
And the cultural shift against 

763
00:39:51,240 --> 00:39:54,560
women that we're seeing. 
They're also exposed to a huge 

764
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:58,080
amounts of pornography and we're
seeing a rise in gender based 

765
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:00,320
violence. 
Now, something I see as AGP is, 

766
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:02,320
which you may not have heard of,
but it's a really interesting 

767
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:05,040
concept, is the failure to 
adulthood and I. 

768
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:08,320
Often see young men brought in 
by their mothers, they're living

769
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:10,960
at home, they're not working, 
they're not in employment, 

770
00:40:11,240 --> 00:40:14,640
they've got low mood, loss of 
motivation, poor concentration. 

771
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:16,880
And then mums come in saying 
you've got to help me. 

772
00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:19,920
My son won't do anything. 
He's depressed, but actually 

773
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:23,440
he's depressed because he's in 
his room all the time, often 

774
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:27,200
spending time on pornography or 
gaming and not enjoying the real

775
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:32,240
world and lost the opportunities
to grow up and take risks that 

776
00:40:32,240 --> 00:40:35,000
young men need in adolescence. 
So get to go back to the 

777
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:37,920
question, are we cutting off our
young people, particularly maybe

778
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:40,560
our young men from something 
valuable online? 

779
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:44,040
Well, I think if we ban social 
media, we're actually cutting 

780
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:47,680
off the very thing that's 
facilitating the problem, the 

781
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:49,760
poor mental health and the 
vulnerabilities. 

782
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:53,240
So again, we need to reengage 
our young people with society. 

783
00:40:53,240 --> 00:40:56,600
It's they actually need a 
rehabilitation, I think in 

784
00:40:56,600 --> 00:41:00,200
living in the real world and how
to enjoy outdoor spaces and real

785
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,400
social life. 
But no, I don't think they will 

786
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:05,040
suffer. 
I think instead we're going to 

787
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:08,680
give them back the opportunities
that they desperately need and 

788
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:10,080
that they're really, really 
missing out on. 

789
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:12,600
Sonia, what's your response? 
Do you think a ban, this 

790
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:16,000
regulation would cut off some of
the good bits of social media 

791
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:18,360
and the activism, the 
opportunity, the belonging that 

792
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:19,960
young, some young people find in
social? 

793
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:23,920
Media, just on the the research,
I absolutely acknowledge that 

794
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:28,360
there is evidence of young men 
and boys struggling, though by 

795
00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:31,760
and large the research shows 
that it's the mental health 

796
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:35,160
problem is greater among girls 
and young women and that relates

797
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:38,960
to the digital world as well as 
more general and statistics. 

798
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:42,360
Let's keep the attention on on 
both the girls and the boys. 

799
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:46,000
So I might ask the question a 
different way around. 

800
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:49,960
I might ask what is it in 
society that we expect we're 

801
00:41:50,240 --> 00:41:53,840
really talking about 13 to 15 
year olds or maybe up to 15 year

802
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:56,080
olds and what kind of is our 
vision for them? 

803
00:41:56,240 --> 00:41:58,920
What do we think will help them 
to thrive? 

804
00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:03,360
And I, I don't think at any 
point in history, we've said we 

805
00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:08,160
want to keep that age group from
the world as it is unfolding and

806
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:10,640
developing. 
What we want is that's the kind 

807
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:15,000
of time for, if you like, for 
kind guided autonomy, which they

808
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:18,160
young people come to become. 
They become diverse. 

809
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:21,680
They're very different. 
They find ways to express 

810
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:23,880
themselves. 
They they follow very different 

811
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:26,400
parts. 
Whenever I go into a class and 

812
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:29,160
ask one question, you know, I 
get 25 answers. 

813
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:32,880
I get as many answers as there 
are young people there on there 

814
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:34,920
are, as we know in any year 
group. 

815
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:38,400
When you go into a school, I 
don't know of, of, of year 

816
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:42,080
eight, there are those who are 
kind of already a bit grown up 

817
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:44,640
and there are those who are 
still kind of playing with their

818
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:46,440
Lego. 
And there are, you know, there's

819
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:50,480
every, there's every kind. 
So that's the age in which it's 

820
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:55,960
the it's the stretching they're 
finding their path and the kind 

821
00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:58,120
of following their interest that
we want for them. 

822
00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:01,360
Yes, they could do that a lot 
more offline than currently. 

823
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:03,840
They are supported. 
I think we have agreed on that. 

824
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:07,760
But also they want to be, some 
of them want to be following the

825
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:10,000
news, some of them want to be 
digital creators. 

826
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:12,600
Some of them want to be 
following a kind of particular 

827
00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:17,080
hobby, some of them just in a 
time when the rest of their life

828
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:19,800
is challenging and they need to 
be gaming, they need to chill 

829
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:23,960
out, they need to relax, they 
need to, they need downtime from

830
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:27,000
the pressures of school. 
You know, we're seeing a lot of 

831
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:31,560
different things in that moment 
of, of being on the screens and 

832
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:34,360
I just cannot see that all of it
is bad. 

833
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:38,800
And they will often make a 
defence, you know, I don't know.

834
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:40,920
Mum and dad are always on at me 
about my grades. 

835
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:43,760
I just need to chill out with my
friends. 

836
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:48,520
I'm really worried about what's 
happening with everyone a 

837
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:50,600
school. 
I just need a bit of quiet time.

838
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:54,280
They talk about me time, they 
talk about time for themselves. 

839
00:43:54,280 --> 00:43:58,600
And it's not all the algorithm 
is not all out of their control.

840
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:01,920
So we're going to take the tech 
out of their hands while it's 

841
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:04,920
still in all of our hands. 
And we're going to what? 

842
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:08,000
Are we going to bring back the 
magazines that I read when I was

843
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:09,040
a child? 
Yeah. 

844
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:13,800
Are we great? 
Are we going to, I don't know. 

845
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:16,800
Are we going to put children's 
TV back on the telly? 

846
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:20,480
Yes. 
Maybe we are, but actually I 

847
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:24,200
don't hear that debate. 
And you know, there is there, 

848
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:27,120
there are challenges in the 
media world as well. 

849
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:30,280
So I, I think anything that 
takes the argues for going 

850
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:34,560
backwards and I am, you know, a 
little wary of kind of middle 

851
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:38,120
class visions of the green space
outside the house and children 

852
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:40,080
playing happily. 
You know, we, we need to think 

853
00:44:40,240 --> 00:44:43,360
of the real world that children 
are in and the real options. 

854
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:47,520
And I would start there. 
What is it we want for our young

855
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:49,840
adolescents? 
How do we provide that? 

856
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:53,920
And can digital be part of that 
mix rather than can we keep them

857
00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:55,440
away from the modern world 
entirely? 

858
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:57,240
This has been so interesting and
I think. 

859
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:00,840
A lot of food for for. 
People ban or not, if it was 

860
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:05,120
like we need a reconfiguration 
of how we're seeing the world of

861
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:08,720
opportunities of real world 
access of allowing young people 

862
00:45:08,720 --> 00:45:11,360
to to get on the bus, to make 
their way to and from school 

863
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:14,040
from a from a younger age to go 
into shops by themselves, have 

864
00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:17,440
conversations with adults to 
access media that's not online. 

865
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:20,360
And I think that's a a question 
for government, but a question 

866
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:23,240
for us as parents as well. 
So to close, I want you to kind 

867
00:45:23,240 --> 00:45:26,320
of take away from your sides 
around this, the social media 

868
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:28,320
ban and imagine you may have 12 
year old boys. 

869
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:30,160
I don't know if you do, imagine 
you've got a 12 year old boy. 

870
00:45:30,240 --> 00:45:34,640
What would you do in your family
right now if you had a 12 year 

871
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:36,960
old boy in regards to their 
relationship with their phone 

872
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:39,920
and social media, in terms of 
them accessing social media, 

873
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:42,360
using it, the conversations 
you're having, their phone. 

874
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:44,680
What would you do right now, 
Susie? 

875
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:48,480
So I actually do have a 13 year 
old son. 

876
00:45:48,720 --> 00:45:52,920
So this is completely relevant 
for me and I'm very happy to 

877
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:55,720
share my story. 
So my 13 year old son has a 

878
00:45:55,720 --> 00:45:57,960
basic phone. 
He has no social media. 

879
00:45:58,240 --> 00:46:01,960
Now he would love Snapchat and 
we have this conversation 

880
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:05,320
regularly at home. 
But the problem is I know, I 

881
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:08,280
know the dangers of Snapchat, I 
know the algorithm, I know the 

882
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:10,280
exposure to inappropriate 
content. 

883
00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:13,560
And my son actually also knows 
the problems of Snapchat because

884
00:46:13,560 --> 00:46:17,040
one of his very close friends 
from school got suspended last 

885
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:21,360
week because his snap account 
was hacked and AI generated porn

886
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:24,560
was sent from his account. 
And it's very hard to prove that

887
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:26,600
what that wasn't him, but his 
account was hacked. 

888
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:31,080
So my son knows how horrendous 
Snapchat is and the real world 

889
00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:35,240
consequences of having snap, but
he's still wants it. 

890
00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:38,720
So the question is, why is my 
son so desperate to have 

891
00:46:38,720 --> 00:46:41,120
Snapchat? 
And actually when I asked him, 

892
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:44,120
he doesn't want Snapchat because
he wants Snapchat. 

893
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:47,040
He only wants it because his 
friends have got Snapchat. 

894
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:49,720
It's as simple as that. 
He doesn't want it at all, but 

895
00:46:49,720 --> 00:46:51,720
his friends have it. 
He feels left out. 

896
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:55,040
We're living, you know, we're a 
herd mentality as a society. 

897
00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:59,240
We want what other people have. 
So this brings full circle back 

898
00:46:59,240 --> 00:47:03,200
to why raising the day age of 
digital consent to 16 would be 

899
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:06,800
such a positive thing. 
Because actually my son wouldn't

900
00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:08,320
be the only one without 
Snapchat. 

901
00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:11,000
All his friends would be in the 
same boat. 

902
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:14,320
They would be together, they 
would be able to re engage more.

903
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:16,880
He wouldn't be fighting for 
their time and their attention. 

904
00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:19,280
And actually none of his friends
would have be having these 

905
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:22,200
horrendous situations where 
they're suspended from school, 

906
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:25,840
experiencing cyber bullying and 
a real impact on their mental 

907
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:28,240
health. 
So actually I really want to to 

908
00:47:28,240 --> 00:47:31,320
give my son back his friends. 
I want to give them back their 

909
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:34,560
in real life experiences which 
they do enjoy, but I want them 

910
00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:38,600
to have the fullness of that. 
But whilst I'm waiting for that 

911
00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:42,080
delay in social media, I'm 
holding firm because I know it's

912
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:46,280
harder now, but the benefits of 
the better mental health, better

913
00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:48,960
concentration and better 
relationships are reached 

914
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:52,400
further and later on. 
And I've done the same with my 

915
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:55,440
almost 18 year old daughter. 
She didn't have social media too

916
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:58,560
much later and she is actually a
shining example and pulled up a 

917
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:02,000
well-rounded young person who 
would now advocate the 

918
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:04,720
advantages of not having had 
social media in a phone from a 

919
00:48:04,720 --> 00:48:07,920
young age and she's really 
grateful, however difficult it 

920
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:09,320
was at the time. 
Amazing. 

921
00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:10,920
So that's my story. 
Incredible. 

922
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:12,920
Thank you, Susie. 
Sonia, what would you do if you 

923
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:14,600
had a 12 year old boy in your 
house right now? 

924
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:20,040
Well my 12 year old boy grew up,
but when he was 12 he was a 

925
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:22,040
gamer so he wasn't on social 
media. 

926
00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:23,760
He was interested in social 
media anyway. 

927
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:27,440
Gaming. 
Gaming was absolutely always a 

928
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:29,360
struggle because that was his 
thing. 

929
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:33,960
He did grow up and become a 
valuable member of society 

930
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:38,000
despite having been, you know, 
we had some fights when he was 

931
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:39,280
12. 
Absolutely. 

932
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:42,360
What do we do? 
I think we did what is the only 

933
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:46,600
thing parents can do, which is 
we played the games with him, we

934
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:48,600
talked to him. 
We made sure that we were the 

935
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:51,440
person that he would come to 
when there was trouble. 

936
00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:55,560
We did our best, as I think or 
parents do, within the capacity 

937
00:48:55,560 --> 00:48:58,560
to provide as rich and fuller 
life as we possibly could. 

938
00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:02,280
But we acknowledge that children
at different points go through 

939
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:04,480
different struggles. 
There was always been bullying 

940
00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:07,400
before cyber bullying. 
Some children have always been a

941
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:10,720
loner before. 
We have some children alone with

942
00:49:10,720 --> 00:49:13,160
their phone. 
Childhood has never been easy 

943
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:16,520
and parenthood has never been 
easy. 

944
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:20,440
And I just come back to the fact
that 12 year old boys are all 

945
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:23,040
different when I go into the 
classroom and I talk to them 

946
00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:27,240
just as and the same for girls. 
So I think parents are doing 

947
00:49:27,240 --> 00:49:29,240
their best. 
I don't think the big tech is 

948
00:49:29,240 --> 00:49:31,800
helping. 
I don't think the government and

949
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:35,480
the regulators are working hard 
enough, but I don't we haven't 

950
00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:37,800
really got into the insurance 
and outs of whether a ban would 

951
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:40,200
work. 
And I'm afraid I have no 

952
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:43,800
evidence to show that a ban 
would work, that if we banned 

953
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:47,240
anything, mental health would 
improve, bullying would go down,

954
00:49:47,840 --> 00:49:50,240
you name it. 
I think still think the societal

955
00:49:50,240 --> 00:49:54,080
problems are there to be 
addressed and that should be 

956
00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:56,400
where our priorities are. 
Round of applause for Sonia. 

957
00:49:56,400 --> 00:49:59,880
It's easy please. 
You've both been. 

958
00:49:59,880 --> 00:50:01,440
Brilliant. 
I think we need to do a Part 2 

959
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:04,440
in like a year's time to see 
where we're at with this. 

960
00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:06,480
But you know, this is a very 
emotional conversation. 

961
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:10,840
So thank you so much for 
bringing honesty data stories to

962
00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:12,880
the conversation. 
You know, ultimately, we want 

963
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:14,520
the same thing. 
We want to protect our young 

964
00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:16,360
people. 
We have slightly different views

965
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:18,480
on how we get there. 
But you know, I appreciate and 

966
00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:20,600
respect you both, so thank you 
so much. 

967
00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:22,880
Thank you so much. 
Thank you. 

968
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:25,000
Thank you very much. 
That was spicy. 

969
00:50:25,240 --> 00:50:28,120
That was so interesting. 
So much to think about. 

970
00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:29,320
We want to hear your your 
thoughts. 

971
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:31,960
What do you think? 
Are you for or against? 

972
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:34,800
What side are you on? 
Please contact us to be a Boy 

973
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:37,360
team@gmail.com. 
We're going to be talking loads 

974
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:41,200
more about this topic, so get in
touch, let us know your thoughts

975
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:42,720
and we'll see you soon.