1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:04,880 This episode is supported by Movember, the leading charity 2 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:07,160 changing the face of Men's health. 3 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:16,680 Hello and welcome to To Be a Boy with Me, Jolie Brilly. 4 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:21,040 I'm me, Elliot Ray. Today's guest is George Bell, 5 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:24,720 author, speaker and Co founder of the men's platform Jack, 6 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:28,640 which explores the realities of men's lives and the issues they 7 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:32,280 often struggle to talk about. He spent more than a decade 8 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:35,480 working in the mental health space, helping to open up 9 00:00:35,480 --> 00:00:39,040 conversations about shame, silence and the precious men 10 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:42,720 face. George is the author of Be a Man 11 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:47,440 About It, Building a Healthier Idea of Masculinity, a book that 12 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:50,720 digs into the enormous expectations placed on men and 13 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:54,240 boys today. In it, he explores everything 14 00:00:54,240 --> 00:00:58,240 from male loneliness and mental health to the cultural scripts 15 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:02,080 that tell boys to suppress their emotions and man up. 16 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:06,560 Today, we're going to talk about the pressures boys grow up under 17 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:10,240 and why so many men struggle to ask for help and what parents 18 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:14,080 can do to raise boys who feel free to be emotionally literate, 19 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:16,960 compassionate and fully themselves. 20 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:21,960 George, welcome to the podcast. Jolie Elliott, Hello. 21 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:23,520 Thank you. Thanks for having me. 22 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:27,320 Exciting to be here. It's so good to see you and we 23 00:01:27,320 --> 00:01:31,080 are loving your house and we are loving your book, which we have 24 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:33,080 a copy of here. As you can see, it's got quite 25 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:35,160 dog eared because I read things in the bath. 26 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:38,640 So it's a little bit crumpled on this side, but it's so good. 27 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:42,080 Really, really enjoyed it. So let's get him. 28 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:47,320 My first question from reading it will be we've spent years 29 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:51,120 telling boys to man up. What do you think that phrase 30 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:53,320 has actually done to a generation of men? 31 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:57,160 It's funny, isn't it, because it, it's just a two word, two 32 00:01:57,160 --> 00:01:59,640 word phrase. It feels, feels so harmless. 33 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:03,600 And I think it's it's used, it's you flippantly and humorously. 34 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:06,960 And I think often people use it with good intentions. 35 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:11,039 But I think the reality is that it's, it's almost put a muzzle 36 00:02:11,039 --> 00:02:14,320 one on men and, and their experiences and how they talk 37 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:17,960 about their experiences. And it, it's sort of created 38 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:22,000 this very narrow box, very, very small box called, you know, 39 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:25,320 titled man or masculine that that we push men into. 40 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:28,360 And actually, I think, you know, what we're finding is that we 41 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:31,200 men and humans that outgrow these boxes, these boxes are too 42 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:33,600 small for them. But but they don't, they don't 43 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:36,000 know they can outgrow that box. They don't know they can live 44 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:38,880 outside of that box. I think it starts to create this 45 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:42,320 real pressure for men. And yeah, it it's sort of the 46 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:44,720 phrase almost implies that there's a blueprint that men 47 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:47,000 have to follow. I think that in the phrase man 48 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:50,320 up, it suggests that you've got to sort of man yourself up to a 49 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:53,080 very certain level. And that's how you be a man. 50 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:56,240 If you don't get to that level, then you know, you're, you're 51 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:57,960 not a man. Basically, I think we've, we've 52 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:01,920 made it a very binary sort of equation of you're either a man 53 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:04,840 or you're weak. And falling into that latter 54 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:08,040 part, being weak for men is often seen as like a cultural 55 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:11,320 death sentence really. So a lot of men do what they can 56 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:15,200 to over index on the former, you know, being a man, they they try 57 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:18,000 to do things to appear more masculine. 58 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:21,640 And that that might mean sleeping around or going to the 59 00:03:21,640 --> 00:03:24,800 gym or trying to get physically fit, drinking more, bantering 60 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:27,800 more, whatever it might be. You know, men, men really want 61 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:31,160 to appear masculine. They want to appear like they're 62 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:35,280 they're manning up, you know, and I think that caused a lot of 63 00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:38,120 men to to struggle. And I think we've, we've maybe 64 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:43,200 sort of created a generation of emotionally illiterate men, 65 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:48,120 frustrated men, repressed, angry, who, you know, don't know 66 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:52,160 where to put their stuff, their heavy stuff, their emotions, 67 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:53,800 their experiences. They don't, they don't think 68 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:56,600 they can talk about it. And that often comes out, I 69 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:59,400 think in, in some of the, you know, horrific statistics we're 70 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:02,400 seeing around addictions and crime and homelessness and, and 71 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:04,680 obviously suicide. So, you know, it's, it's, it's 72 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:07,000 just a phrase, it's just a two word phrase, you know, at the 73 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:09,560 face of it. And yet language is so, so 74 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:12,160 powerful. And I think it, yeah, it shuts 75 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:14,000 men down and and their experiences. 76 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:16,959 I have AT shirt that says woman up on it. 77 00:04:16,959 --> 00:04:19,160 I wish I'd worn it actually for this interview. 78 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:22,880 I I thought when my kids were younger that we were actually 79 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:26,200 getting better at moving away from phrases like man up and 80 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:30,840 also things like boys don't cry those sorts of phrases, But I 81 00:04:30,840 --> 00:04:33,920 feel like the pendulum sort of swung right back again in the 82 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:37,400 last few years. I remember when my son was very 83 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:39,640 young, he's about four, when we're in the park in Manchester, 84 00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:43,480 and he fell over and a kid said and he was crying and a kid said 85 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:45,600 to him, boys don't cry, why are you crying? 86 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:48,400 And I was horrified. I couldn't actually believe a 87 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:50,880 kid had said that to him. And I was like, boys do cry, of 88 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:51,920 course they cry. What do you mean? 89 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:56,480 But now I don't think I'd be shocked by a kid saying that 90 00:04:56,480 --> 00:05:00,480 because of all the influences they're getting externally. 91 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:03,040 Do you do? It was. 92 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:06,800 Is there evidence to show that that it's it got better and it 93 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:09,120 it was bad. It started to get better and now 94 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:12,080 it's getting worse again. I, I, I don't know if there's 95 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:14,680 stats or evidence like that, you know, there might be something 96 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:18,120 on it, but I, you know, I, I know, I know the feeling that I 97 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:21,280 have from what I see in commentary and social media and, 98 00:05:21,280 --> 00:05:24,800 and the media headlines and that, that's the feeling I share 99 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:27,760 the, the same with you. You know, the, we see the, the 100 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:31,560 toxic, harmful influences dominating the conversation 101 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:35,320 around men and masculinity. And you know, we, you know, we, 102 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:37,840 we obviously know that's not, that's a very small part of 103 00:05:37,840 --> 00:05:40,560 masculinity. But I think those are the, the 104 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:43,400 stories and the people that grab the headlines and I think that 105 00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:47,120 create that furthers this cultural narrative of men are a 106 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:49,040 certain way or men should be a certain way. 107 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:52,240 And part of that is men do not Christ, you know, it's obviously 108 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:54,560 different, different households and, you know, some some 109 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:56,880 friendship groups and some boys and some men will will be 110 00:05:56,880 --> 00:05:58,760 complete, complete comfortable crying. 111 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:02,800 But I think the overall sort of cultural narrative and cultural 112 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:07,160 message still seems to be that one where men need to be to be 113 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:11,160 strong and, and crying, crying doesn't feel very masculine. 114 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:14,520 And I think even if you take men who maybe, you know, consciously 115 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:17,560 know that the crying is OK, it's a good thing. 116 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:20,600 It's a natural thing. A lot of men may have been 117 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:22,800 coming up, you know, even for myself, you know, for you, 118 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:24,520 Elliot, maybe for any man listening to this, you've, 119 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:27,640 you're coming up against maybe decades of conditioning around 120 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:31,440 masculinity and how to be a man. So although we might know that 121 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:35,800 crying is OK when it comes to the ACT, it can still feel 122 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:38,000 really unmasculine. You're you're kind of fighting 123 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:40,360 against these these cultural norms. 124 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:44,200 So even if we were to say to a boy, you know, or a man, it's OK 125 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:46,480 to cry. It's not like that just suddenly 126 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:48,880 flip to switch. Oh yeah, OK, that's that's fine. 127 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:51,520 Then you're fighting against decades of conditioning. 128 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:54,320 Yeah. Was there a moment in your own 129 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:58,240 life when you realised the traditional idea of being a man 130 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:02,320 wasn't working? Yes, yeah, very, very acutely 131 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:03,880 for me, it was just over 10 years ago. 132 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:06,440 I was, I was really struggling with my mental health. 133 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:10,000 I was in a, in a really difficult dark place. 134 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:14,760 I, I just, I felt like I was in a, in a, in a hole to be honest 135 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:18,720 or, or like a, to be honest, more like a sort of tunnel where 136 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:20,680 I just, I couldn't see any way out. 137 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:23,520 There was, there was no kind of light in that tunnel for me. 138 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:28,040 And that resulted in me making plans to take my own life. 139 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:30,240 That, that was the, that was where I'd, I'd ended up. 140 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:35,800 So obviously, you know, heavy difficult situation, but I think 141 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:37,800 what made that more challenging, obviously that, you know, it's a 142 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:40,360 very, very strong mental health issue element to that. 143 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:44,800 But I think what made it more challenging was that I just had 144 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:48,640 no idea what was going on. I had no language for any of it. 145 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:51,760 I can talk about it a bit more articulately now, but back then 146 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:53,840 I didn't know what it was. I didn't have labels. 147 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:55,280 I didn't know how to describe it. 148 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:57,240 I didn't know the range of emotions that I was 149 00:07:57,240 --> 00:07:59,880 experiencing. And, you know, probably the 150 00:07:59,880 --> 00:08:02,440 hardest thing is that I didn't think I could talk about it. 151 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:07,680 You know, I was adhering to this man code of, of not talking 152 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:09,480 about the things that we go through, not talking about our 153 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:12,800 struggle. So despite feeling like I was in 154 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:18,960 this this tunnel alone, I didn't feel I had a right to be able to 155 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:22,200 talk about it. And, you know, it's it's it's 156 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:24,120 sad when I look back on that because actually I had an 157 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:26,720 amazing network around me, really good group of friend, 158 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:29,960 friends, loving family, had a supportive girlfriend at the 159 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:33,360 time. And, you know, none of them knew 160 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:38,520 what I was going through, which I think, yeah, I just, it just 161 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,000 makes me feel really sad when I, when I kind of relive that 162 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:42,240 experience. Like, you know, I mean, even 163 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:45,160 remember, I remember a conversation, a very, very 164 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:46,880 specific conversation with my my family. 165 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:49,920 I sat with my mum, dad and brother, and we were talking 166 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:52,640 about a holiday that we were going to go on the following 167 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:53,560 year. Everyone's getting really 168 00:08:53,560 --> 00:08:56,560 excited about it. The thought that I had at the 169 00:08:56,560 --> 00:08:59,840 time was the holiday sounds great, but I'm not going to be 170 00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:03,000 here to see it. That's, that's the thought that 171 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:05,240 that was going from mine, which, you know, no one should be in 172 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:08,800 that position to feel that way. But I didn't say that. 173 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:11,760 You know, I just, I kept laughing along around how great 174 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:15,560 the holiday sounds. If I had just taken a moment 175 00:09:15,560 --> 00:09:19,080 there to say, do you know what, guys, I'm, I'm actually really 176 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:20,320 struggling. I think I need help. 177 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:21,840 It would have been there that support. 178 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:25,000 But I, you know, I just, I felt that I wasn't, I wasn't able to 179 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:26,600 because it's not, it's not what men do. 180 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:29,640 So you think things got worse and worse for me, I was, I was 181 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:32,840 avoiding confronting it and things got worse and worse until 182 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:37,520 I, I obviously got to the point where I was outwardly displaying 183 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:39,960 symptoms of stuff not I wasn't in a good place. 184 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:43,000 I was withdrawn and cold and distant, getting angry and 185 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:46,320 frustrated, snapping at people. My girlfriend at the time called 186 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:49,360 me out for my behaviour. She said like, what is going on 187 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:51,880 with you? I think then I just, I was 188 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:54,880 confronted with the fact that I had to open up. 189 00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:58,200 I almost, I couldn't hide anymore and these words just 190 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:00,840 poured out of me. They were not articulate at all. 191 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:02,520 There was no kind of literacy to them. 192 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:07,080 I think I just sort of said I don't feel good, but that that 193 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:10,280 was the start, you know, that set a sort of chain of events in 194 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:12,560 motion where she got my mum involved. 195 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:15,000 Both of them got me into medical pathways. 196 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:17,400 And, you know, it was a long process, one I resisted for a 197 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:20,400 long time, again, because I felt was a man, I shouldn't be doing 198 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:22,600 this kind of thing. But eventually that landed me 199 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:24,840 into therapy. And, you know, we worked on the 200 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:27,480 mental health stuff. But then actually we went 201 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:29,600 deeper. And I've realized that it was 202 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:32,560 almost my sense of masculinity and being a man who got me to 203 00:10:32,560 --> 00:10:34,880 that place. I realized I had to almost 204 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:38,520 deconstruct my version of masculinity and, and kind of 205 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:40,880 rebuild it. And yeah, you know, that it's 206 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:44,200 obviously been a, it's been a journey since then, but it, it 207 00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:46,520 all came back to, to that moment really for me. 208 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:48,160 So obviously it was, it was horrendous. 209 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:50,360 And I went through a lot. Me and my family went through a 210 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:52,720 lot. But actually, you know, I choose 211 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:55,680 to look at the the positives that have come from that now. 212 00:10:55,680 --> 00:10:59,200 Like it has 100% made me a better, better man. 213 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:00,800 And it's it's got me where I am today. 214 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:06,920 I mean, thank you for sharing that and well done for pulling 215 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:12,480 yourself out of it and and for telling your girlfriend how you 216 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:15,800 felt at the time. I know that for, you know, 217 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:20,240 certainly as a parent listening to that and parent and boys, and 218 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:22,600 there will be a lot of parents of boys listening to that. 219 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:26,560 They'll be thinking, what if that's my son? 220 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:31,520 What do I do in that situation? Is there anything your parents 221 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:35,200 could have done earlier? They obviously did a lot once 222 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:38,040 you opened up, but do you think with hindsight there was 223 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:41,680 anything that they could have done to encourage you to have 224 00:11:41,680 --> 00:11:45,600 opened up or to have helped you earlier than they then you were? 225 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:47,920 You got the help that you needed. 226 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:50,240 Yes, it's, it's a really good question. 227 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:55,040 I think it's one of those things that you, you know, you, you can 228 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:56,440 go down a rabbit hole with, right. 229 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:58,240 And with the benefit of hindsight, I could have done 230 00:11:58,240 --> 00:11:59,120 more. Everyone else, you know, other 231 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:01,840 people could have done more. It was, it's, it's such a hard 232 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:03,680 thing to go through. I mean, you know, this was, this 233 00:12:03,680 --> 00:12:05,760 was over 10 years ago. The mental health conversation 234 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:09,360 was not a current 1. You know, my, I didn't have any 235 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:11,480 kind of emotional literacy around this stuff. 236 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:13,000 I don't think my parents really did either. 237 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:15,920 So I think that was already a bit of a difficult situation. 238 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:19,360 But I think, I think maybe yes, there was. 239 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:22,680 But definitely the first thing to say for me is if you are a 240 00:12:22,680 --> 00:12:25,680 parent in that, in this situation right now, I know how 241 00:12:25,680 --> 00:12:29,080 heavy it can be. I think when, when I was going 242 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:34,760 through it myself, it was so all consuming that the whole, 243 00:12:34,760 --> 00:12:36,160 everything just revolved around me. 244 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:41,000 I couldn't see past my own struggle and I just had no time 245 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:44,360 or empathy for anyone around me. But actually, you know, I've 246 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:45,920 spoken to my parents a lot about it now. 247 00:12:46,560 --> 00:12:50,160 I know how heavily it weighed on them and, and you know, the 248 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:52,720 distress that it caused them. And, you know, when someone is 249 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:55,000 struggling, it does affect the the people we're around. 250 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:58,320 So I think the first thing to say is, you know, if, if it is a 251 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:02,480 struggle for you right now, then like it is, it is OK to to feel 252 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:04,760 that way. And please as a first step, I 253 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:07,000 think build your own support network. 254 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:11,080 Like I swore my mum to secrecy. I was so I felt so ashamed of 255 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:14,800 how I was feeling that I didn't want anyone else to know any 256 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:17,720 other friends or family friends or, you know, family because I 257 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:19,600 didn't want them to think I was less of a man. 258 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:23,520 So I swore her to secrecy. But then actually that, you 259 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:25,720 know, I was, I was doing it with good intentions, but it was 260 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:28,680 actually quite selfish of me because she was then carrying 261 00:13:28,680 --> 00:13:32,480 this huge burden that she wasn't equipped to, to carry. 262 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:36,040 And, you know, I think that that has had ramifications. 263 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:38,200 Like she's, she's not a great sleeper. 264 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:41,480 My mum, we, we always sort of make jokes about it, but we 265 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:42,560 talked about it in the summer actually. 266 00:13:42,560 --> 00:13:43,920 We had a real sort of nice heart to heart. 267 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:47,880 And she said that actually, it started just 10 years ago when I 268 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:51,480 was struggling because she was lying awake worrying about what 269 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:54,000 was going to happen to me. Obviously I got better, but 270 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:56,240 actually that has now stayed with her for the last 10 years, 271 00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:59,440 almost as like a, you know, a post stress disorder type thing 272 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:00,840 that she's never been able to sleep properly. 273 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:03,400 So I think that that was such a heavyweight to to carry. 274 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:05,600 So I think that'd be my first thing like, please build your 275 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:07,960 support network, talk to friends, talk to family, talk to 276 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:10,600 charities, get advice from a professional. 277 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:13,840 I think get that emotional support network for yourself, 278 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:17,080 but also any kind of like, you know, professional advice as 279 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:19,040 well. And then I think in terms of 280 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:23,040 actually reaching out to your son, I think that persistence 281 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:26,720 can be key when when we start to have these conversations as a 282 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:29,800 family. I completely shut down. 283 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:32,960 I think I actually got angry. I was almost angry that, you 284 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:35,160 know, people ask me questions about it completely, well 285 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:37,320 meaning questions. But I got anger as a response. 286 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:40,320 I think because I felt so angry, I was blaming the world and 287 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:42,080 blaming others. And that was a place to put my 288 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:45,080 anger. But actually, you know, my mum 289 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:48,880 didn't give up. She sort of kept poking and 290 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:51,800 prodding gently. And I think that gradually 291 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:55,080 removed some of the the barriers that I built up of my own shame 292 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:56,720 and not being able to talk about this stuff. 293 00:14:57,160 --> 00:14:59,520 The same with like therapy. She recommended I should go to 294 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:02,320 therapy, acted or responded really angrily. 295 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:04,960 Men don't need therapy. I don't need to go to therapy. 296 00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:08,880 She suggested a couple more times over a couple of months. 297 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:10,760 And then I'd come, I'd come round to that. 298 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:13,160 I had to almost sort of get myself round to that idea. 299 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:15,480 So I think it was good that she didn't give up. 300 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:17,720 I think it, you know, it might have been easy for her to to 301 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:20,760 sort of give up how trying to have that conversation with me 302 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:23,720 when I was responding. Probably not, not a nice way. 303 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:25,760 So I think definitely persistence. 304 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:29,800 And then, you know, I think just try to do it sort of gently in 305 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:34,400 an, in an open-ended way. I think that that if men feel 306 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:37,440 they're being attacked or accused or shamed or judged, I 307 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:39,640 think that can make them them shut down. 308 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:42,440 You know, if you were to ask your boy why you're so stressed 309 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:45,240 all the time, that would probably make him shut down as 310 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:47,680 if it was a more sort of gentle open-ended question. 311 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:49,520 Like I've noticed not been yourself recently. 312 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:52,880 What's been going on that might, might create the space for for 313 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:56,120 them to open up. So it's, it's not easy. 314 00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:58,720 Like I, you know, I really know it is, it is challenging and 315 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:02,560 it's, it's probably not going to be a simple smooth conversation 316 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:06,600 straight away, but I just know that I'm, yeah, I'm glad that my 317 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:08,560 parents sort of didn't give up there. 318 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:11,840 They were persistent with it and and that just helped remove 319 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:14,840 these these barriers of being a man that that I build up where I 320 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:18,160 felt I couldn't talk about it. So, so powerful, George. 321 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:21,040 I think a lot of the stuff you're saying resonates so 322 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:25,080 deeply with myself and also stories I've heard from others 323 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:28,040 and friends and family. And he spoke about like 10 years 324 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:31,640 ago and how the mental health conversations changed massively. 325 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:34,840 And at the time, 10 years ago, we weren't really speaking 326 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:37,120 openly about mental health, let alone men's mental health. 327 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:42,600 My own experience of similar to yours was 10 years ago. 328 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:46,800 And I remember not having the language or the understanding 329 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:50,400 about what was going on. And I think that made it a lot 330 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:52,200 harder. And once I did get a diagnosis 331 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:56,360 and understanding and it and it and it named, it was named, I 332 00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:58,920 felt better because I had an understanding about what I was 333 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:00,360 going on. I didn't think I was just going 334 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:01,440 crazy. That was something that I was 335 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:03,920 experiencing. How important do you think it 336 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:06,680 is? Like language and naming and 337 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:10,240 having the ability to say this is what I have, this is what I'm 338 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:12,880 going through and attach it to a diagnosis. 339 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:17,160 Do you think that's helpful for men in regards to coming out the 340 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:19,160 other side? I do, yeah. 341 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:22,520 I think there is there will be a resistance to naming and to 342 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:24,960 labels. You know, I know again, you 343 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:27,920 know, being a man you kept given a certain label, it can feel 344 00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:30,880 weak. Like I know when I was given the 345 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:34,640 labels from a doctor that I had major depressive disorder and 346 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:38,680 generalized anxiety disorder, that wasn't very nice. 347 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:40,440 I didn't feel like I had clarity. 348 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:42,480 I actually felt worse. I felt like less of a man, I 349 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:46,200 felt smaller. So I think that I think that we 350 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:49,520 have to recognize the, the power of, of language, language and 351 00:17:49,520 --> 00:17:51,680 we've already covered it with, with a phrase like man up. 352 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:54,880 And I think clinical diagnosis can almost have that same. 353 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:58,240 They're very charged words, right? 354 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:04,320 But also I think that we, if we're able to name something, 355 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:07,040 we're able to understand it and maybe work through it. 356 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:10,840 I think it's, it's, it's Brené Brown who says the thinks the 357 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:13,480 closer we can voice an emotion on, the closer we can get to 358 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:16,560 talking about an emotion, the easier it is to, to kind of work 359 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:19,960 through it and process it. So I think, yes, I think from 360 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:23,200 that regard, once we can label something, we can then build a 361 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:26,000 plan around it. We then know how to, to respond 362 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:27,960 to it and action it. You know, when I, when I did get 363 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:30,920 my labels, although I hated them, I was then able to 364 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:33,800 research around them. I was able to understand what 365 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:35,800 was going on. You know, often men can maybe 366 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:37,840 think in quite linear ways. And I know that. 367 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:39,640 I know that's what I did. I went into sort of linear 368 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:42,920 action plan of what is this thing, what's the science behind 369 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:44,760 it, what's the biology? What causes it? 370 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:47,520 What are some of the things I can do to start to combat it? 371 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:49,320 And I was able to to do some of that stuff. 372 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:52,320 So I think it can be helpful in in that regard, Yeah. 373 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:57,560 It was Sophia's to me, like starting early with kids, 374 00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:01,120 talking about emotions is so vital and with boys in 375 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:03,760 particular. And while you were talking as 376 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:08,880 well, it occurred to me like even when kids don't need it, 377 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:12,960 having them having some experience with therapy before 378 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:17,160 they need it could be positive where they can. 379 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:20,680 They talk to a therapist, they realize they're not an ogre and 380 00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:23,680 they are going to have nice conversations with them and be 381 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:25,520 helpful. Then if you are struggling, 382 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:31,160 you'd probably be more receptive to the notion of therapy and 383 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:34,960 therefore receptive to asking for help when you need it. 384 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:37,040 But not every. I mean, that is a privilege that 385 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:42,880 not many people can afford. But and I don't know how you do 386 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:45,040 that without, you know, paying for a therapist. 387 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:48,240 But talking about me, I have one child who will not talk like 388 00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:51,800 does not talk about emotions, plays rugby, you know, beefcake 389 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:56,160 very like man will be a man's man, you know, very not a man's 390 00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:57,800 man. I've used a terrible phraser 391 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:00,600 will be like very, you know what I mean? 392 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:03,320 It's very stereotypical voyage. And another one that doesn't 393 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:05,880 shut up and tells me everything. And we'll talk about all the dis 394 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:08,680 emotions all the time. And with the first one, I worry 395 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:11,120 about him a lot. And that, yeah, it just feels to 396 00:20:11,120 --> 00:20:16,200 me like it's this. He's been told no, we don't talk 397 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:19,040 about that and it isn't natural to him to do it anyway. 398 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:25,480 So finding ways to poke that bear is have rather than just be 399 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:27,720 like it's just somebody that doesn't talk about his emotions. 400 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:31,240 And I think what's, what was really important to me is that 401 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:34,920 this, this doesn't necessarily have to be about getting all 402 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:37,000 boys and men to a place where they're talking all the time 403 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:39,240 about what they're feeling and what they're experiencing. 404 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:42,280 I think that would be fantastic. And we know the, the power of 405 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:46,760 talking, but some, some men and some boys will, will probably 406 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:49,520 stay resistant to it. Others are, are naturally more 407 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:52,280 expressive than others. So I think that's, that's not 408 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:55,840 the only sort of solution. I think the, the main part of it 409 00:20:55,840 --> 00:21:00,360 for me is helping them have better emotional understanding 410 00:21:00,360 --> 00:21:03,360 and literacy. So understanding their range of 411 00:21:03,360 --> 00:21:07,240 emotions and the fact that every single emotion has a place. 412 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:09,640 It's not good or bad. It's a source of information. 413 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:11,840 It's a, it's, you know, it's a biological tool. 414 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:14,920 It's, it's there for a reason. It's it's human specific, not 415 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:17,960 gender specific. So I think if we can get people 416 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:19,880 to a place with that and understand the things they're 417 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:23,320 feeling are, are normal and human, that's almost the first 418 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:26,480 step. And then how people process that 419 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:28,000 and work through it will be different. 420 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:31,280 So for some people that might be talking for some boys and some 421 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:34,560 men that might be, you know, being active or finding a 422 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:37,800 purpose or going for a run or going and punching a bag at a 423 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:39,840 gym, you know, doing a boxing workout. 424 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:42,600 That might be how they, you know, they might get space 425 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:45,520 saying I'm really stressed. I'm going to go for a 10K run. 426 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:46,720 That's how I'm going to work through it. 427 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:50,160 That, for me is fantastic. That is emotional literacy and 428 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:52,600 action doesn't always have to be to be talking. 429 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:53,920 So I think that was important to say. 430 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:57,760 But it is about, yeah, making boys and men realize that our 431 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:00,640 emotions are not these things we should be fighting against. 432 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:03,240 They're not these kind of invaders that they're there to 433 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:06,520 help us, not hinder us, even though some emotions can 434 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:07,880 obviously feel quite distressing are. 435 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:15,360 There any common mistakes that you see parents making with the 436 00:22:15,360 --> 00:22:17,280 boys? It's obviously really hard to 437 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:19,520 parent these days. I'm, I'm not a parent myself as 438 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:22,080 well, I should say. So I think I have to, I have to 439 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:24,720 sort of give that, that caveat. But I, you know, I know a lot of 440 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:28,400 parents and I know how hard it is to, to parent these days. 441 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:30,400 You're when you're, you're both parents as well, right? 442 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,680 And you'll, you'll be getting the conflicting messages and 443 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:36,640 social media and one guru says this, another one says that. 444 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:39,560 So I know you're getting, you know, a million different 445 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,760 messages. And I think also the the 446 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:46,960 conversation around boys and girls and masculinity can feel 447 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:51,120 quite confusing because there is an element of boys will be boys 448 00:22:51,120 --> 00:22:53,640 sometimes that there is an element of that, you know, that 449 00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:57,600 there is biology at play. For example, boys often have a 450 00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:01,240 more natural leaning towards activity and adventure and and 451 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:03,800 risk taking that that can be a biological thing. 452 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:07,640 So to some degrees that there is a yeah boys will be boys piece. 453 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:12,600 But then we know there is also a very strong sort of cultural 454 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:15,160 conditioning and social conditioning piece. 455 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,960 And I think it's hard to know where that line is sometimes. 456 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:21,480 Like you might see, you know, you might see people say that, 457 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:25,520 you know, we don't have to give boys action men figures anymore 458 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:28,080 and girls Barbie figures. We don't have to do blue and 459 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,080 pink colour thing. You know, we don't have to do 460 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:32,240 that stuff. But then I think, you know, it 461 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:37,200 can be hard knowing well, where do I encourage a boy to do the 462 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:40,200 things that boys like? And where actually do I help 463 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:44,080 them step out of these sort of predetermined gender boxes that 464 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:46,800 that we talk about? So I know it's really, really 465 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:48,800 challenging. I think this is the first thing 466 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:53,320 to say, but I think you know me, maybe a sort of common mistake 467 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:57,720 that can often be made is misunderstanding boys responses 468 00:23:57,720 --> 00:23:59,840 or, or emotions. You know, I already talked about 469 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:04,760 my my own experience earlier where my response to dealing 470 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:08,320 with what I was going through was to become withdrawn and cold 471 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:11,840 and distant and actually quite angry and frustrated and, and 472 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:15,280 snappy at people. Obviously, you know, they, they 473 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:18,600 aren't, that's not a nice response for people having to 474 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:22,080 deal with that. But I think maybe sometimes we 475 00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:26,480 can just see that response and criticize the boy or the man for 476 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:28,840 that response and say, you know, why is he like that? 477 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:32,680 Why is he so angry rather than maybe going deeper and, and 478 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:36,600 asking or what's he trying to say or what's what's causing him 479 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:39,760 to, to feel that way? And if, if we do, I'm not, I'm 480 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:42,320 not condoning like anger or violence or anything like that, 481 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:44,560 by the way. But I, I think that, yeah, 482 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:47,280 sometimes we miss, we see what's happening at the surface level 483 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:49,560 and we miss what's going on underneath. 484 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:53,840 And if we know that the boys aren't often as emotionary 485 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:58,080 emotionally literature as as girls, then actually that their 486 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:01,440 anger might be their way of of trying to say, I really need 487 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:03,560 help right now. So I think that that can be 488 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,520 something we often often miss. Do you know, when growing up, 489 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,880 there was a couple of boys that I was just so angry all the 490 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:11,200 time. Like literally, you don't want 491 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:12,920 to go out of them because they're going to start a fight. 492 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:14,960 Like, I don't want to have a fight tonight. 493 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:17,800 So you just stay away from them. But they were so angry. 494 00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:20,800 And at the time I just thought, oh, they just like fighting. 495 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,520 I didn't think too much of it. They were just angry people. 496 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:27,160 But now in my big age, now I'm more experienced, I look back 497 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:29,320 and I'm like, what was going on in their lives? 498 00:25:29,360 --> 00:25:31,200 Like what were they dealing with at home? 499 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:33,480 What was going on? Because there must have been 500 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,080 something going on by the time we just thought they were 501 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:39,200 actually, some people thought they were quite cool and people, 502 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:41,480 some people were scared of them because, you know, they were, 503 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:43,760 they were big and strong and they were like fighting. 504 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:46,440 But I completely agree. Sometimes we don't see what's 505 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:49,480 behind that. And you know, we, we, we punish 506 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:51,560 the bad behaviour. And of course we can't condone 507 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:53,720 violence. It's not good, but looking 508 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:56,560 underneath and saying actually there's something going on here 509 00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:00,600 and that person becomes a perpetrator, but they're 510 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:05,360 probably a victim in some part of their life as well, and I 511 00:26:05,360 --> 00:26:07,960 think that often gets lost. Yeah. 512 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:11,760 I would say to my kids, hurt people, hurt people. 513 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:14,800 Like when you when they come up against other kids that are 514 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:18,680 bullies and being awful to them, I always say they're just not 515 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,040 happy. They're really unhappy kids and 516 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:24,080 you've got to remember they've got some awful things going on 517 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:27,360 at home. Yeah, it's no, it's so true. 518 00:26:27,360 --> 00:26:31,560 You know, it's the, the, the trolls on social media that the 519 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:34,240 people, the people that have addictions that we label as a 520 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:37,280 mess or, you know, homeless people that can often get 521 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:39,680 labeled as lazy, all these horrible things that get thrown 522 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,600 around. Actually, we, we missed that. 523 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,200 Yeah, they, they are probably the ones struggling the most, 524 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:46,960 the ones that need the most help, ones that have got the 525 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:49,560 most stuff going on. And, you know, getting you to, 526 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:52,840 to your point, you can't condone addictions or, you know, 527 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:55,200 bullying online. We, we people have to take 528 00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:57,760 personal responsibility for their actions. 529 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:00,880 And I think it's always an and you know, it's not full stop. 530 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:04,320 It's an and we can look at stuff holistically and systemically 531 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:08,840 and ask how have we created the environment where that person 532 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:11,760 has ended up thinking that that's the thing they have to do 533 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:13,360 to get through the day, basically. 534 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:15,520 That's difficult though, isn't it? 535 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:18,120 I think that framing is tough and I think it's probably part 536 00:27:18,120 --> 00:27:21,600 of the reason why we haven't addressed some of those issues 537 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,680 that probably disproportionately effects men like gambling and 538 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,160 like violence, because there is a victim at the end of the day, 539 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,960 and that has to be the priority as as well. 540 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:31,720 And so I think it is, it is tough. 541 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:34,080 And I think at a government level, I don't think that that 542 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:37,760 approach is taken really at all. Maybe it's starting to to have a 543 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:40,640 look at that. But as individuals seeing 544 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:44,200 someone who on the face of it has done bad things, as someone 545 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:47,160 who needs support, it's really hard to get your head around. 546 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:49,840 Really hard, challenging, really challenging, really tough. 547 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:54,320 And I don't mean to be a negative Nancy, but it feels to 548 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:57,480 me like I've been tell you what, I've been rewatching Educating 549 00:27:57,480 --> 00:27:59,040 Yorkshire. It's so good. 550 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:01,760 And like even the really old episodes, I'm watching them all 551 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:03,800 again with my kids. We're all loving it. 552 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:07,160 It's great for the for my eldest son who's now in secondary 553 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:09,680 school to see the teachers perspective through it, but and 554 00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:11,960 also see how kids are behaving in other schools. 555 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:15,520 And so he's really enjoying it. And one of the teachers actually 556 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:19,560 was one of said on the episode yesterday, No kid wants to come 557 00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:21,880 into school and misbehave. It's attention. 558 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:24,760 They're like, please help me when they come in and they're 559 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:28,600 naughty. But there's so that school that 560 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,480 it's based around is a small secondary school and the 561 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:35,200 teachers are so involved in the kids lives and the kids get to 562 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:38,600 know the teachers individually. They really know about that, the 563 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:39,840 insurance and outs of their lives. 564 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:41,960 And I don't feel like that happens at the secondary school 565 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:43,520 my kid goes to. It's massive. 566 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,600 He gets called boy by the teachers you bought, you know, 567 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:48,080 because they don't know his name. 568 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,600 Because. It was so old school. 569 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:55,080 I know and, and there's no clips around there. 570 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,040 There's no places for kids to go. 571 00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:01,600 So there's no, the only adults that really know my kid properly 572 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:05,440 and me and my partner, there's no words of opportunity for him 573 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:09,800 to find another safe adult outside of his family that could 574 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:12,040 support him. And as a result, like round 575 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:14,240 here, we've got gangs, we've got kids that work around 576 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,880 Balaclavasan, we've had stabbings, we've had some really 577 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:20,080 serious incidents. And when I've talked to the MP 578 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:22,840 about it, it's like, well, we'll put CCTV cameras up. 579 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,400 I'm like, well, so great. So we'll just move them onto 580 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:28,600 another patch, shall we? Or maybe they need something to 581 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:32,160 do. Maybe they need a place to go 582 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:35,160 where there's a safe adult that they can talk to about something 583 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:37,640 and that just has all of that stuff is vanished. 584 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,480 There's no safety Nets for kids anymore. 585 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:43,920 And it seems to me it disproportionately impacts boys. 586 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:47,600 Yeah, and you're, you know, you perfectly described the issue 587 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:48,960 there. Let's put cameras up. 588 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:50,880 OK, Let's treat the symptoms again. 589 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:52,840 Let's let's just treat the thing, you know, things at the 590 00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:56,000 bottom of the river rather than going upstream and asking why 591 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:58,600 are people falling in and in the 1st place? 592 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:02,120 And I think you're right that one of the big systemic issues 593 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:05,240 for boys and men now, I think is that the collapse of third 594 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:07,480 spaces. We, we have the first spaces at 595 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:11,160 home, second places at work, and then third spaces you places 596 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,400 like churches, gyms, pubs, parks, community centers. 597 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:17,480 A lot of that stuff is collapsing, you know, because of 598 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,520 funding or whatever it might be. COVID obviously played a hand, 599 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:25,480 but those those places where people meet and you know, men 600 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:28,880 meet other men and form those bonds and those connections are 601 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,200 disappearing. Actually, the second space is 602 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:32,760 more challenging than ever. A lot of people are working 603 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:34,840 remotely, not in the office all the time. 604 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,880 So they might just be at home all the time, sometimes on their 605 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:39,680 own. They might be living by 606 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:42,640 themselves so that you know, where are they? 607 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:45,040 Where are they forming these social bonds? 608 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:46,880 Where are they? Where are they releasing the 609 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:48,640 energy they have talking about their emotions? 610 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:52,400 A lot of them aren't. And so it again, it just it just 611 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,440 builds up and it comes out in in unhealthy ways. 612 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:58,640 You can, again, not condoning it, but you can see why someone 613 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,560 might end up with an addiction because that's they don't for a 614 00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:05,760 man that that maybe struggles to process stuff that becomes the 615 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,520 the outlet. So yeah, I think systemically 616 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:11,400 that's that's a big, big piece we have to focus on. 617 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:13,600 And how do we do that? So, you know, there's some nice, 618 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:16,320 there's a new research by Global Institute Women's Leadership 619 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:19,600 came out last week showed that I think it's 31% of Gen. 620 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:24,480 Z men believe that a wife should obey their husband. 621 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:28,200 And I was reflecting on how we came to that, how we got here. 622 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:30,360 And I think a lot of it is what you said there, George. 623 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,200 I think a lot of young people are not actually talking. 624 00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:36,480 A lot of young boys are not talking to older men who are 625 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,600 actually in relationships, who are actually in healthy 626 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:43,480 relationships, who work, who parent, who who live, and not 627 00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:45,560 talking to them about how they're actually living their 628 00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:48,080 life. Because all of the men that I 629 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:51,760 know who are in happy partnerships, like their wife 630 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:53,920 does not obey them in in that sense, right? 631 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:56,280 They have a two way communication and it's a 632 00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:58,960 partnership. And sometimes this person leads, 633 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:02,200 sometimes that person leads and they have arguments they make 634 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:04,000 up. And that's, that's what a 635 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:06,880 relationship looks like. But I think a lot of young 636 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:10,000 people are getting their ideas from online, from social media, 637 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,600 from the people who shall not be named. 638 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:13,680 But, you know, we know who they are. 639 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:16,040 And they're getting those ideas about what it means to be a man 640 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:18,600 and a husband and a partner through some random person on 641 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:20,360 the Internet who's just there to make money from them. 642 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:25,880 So how do we connect more young boys with older men who can give 643 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:29,240 them the reality of actually life actually looks like when it 644 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:31,680 comes to relationships and work and everything else? 645 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:34,200 Yeah, I would, I would love to do more in schools. 646 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:36,080 You know, I think, I think we should do more in schools. 647 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,840 I'm sure people have, you know, this it's not, it's not a new 648 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:42,960 solution, but I think actually that's where a lot of our 649 00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:45,680 challenges and issues and problems and beliefs around the 650 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:47,880 world start. And you know, it's, it's a 651 00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:50,520 common line that, you know, we we go to school and we'll learn 652 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:52,840 about algebra and Pythagoras theore and all that kind of 653 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:54,400 stuff. But then you you don't learn 654 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,440 about relationships and money and debt and investing and what 655 00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,640 it's like buying a home and addictions, all that kind of 656 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:02,560 stuff. You have to almost learn it for 657 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:06,120 yourself out in the real world, which has tragic consequences 658 00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:08,520 for a lot of people. Like I had to learn my own 659 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,440 lessons around mental health and mental health issues, which 660 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:15,040 almost cost me my life that could have gone, gone a very, 661 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:17,880 very different way. If I had had better lessons 662 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:20,960 earlier on around definitions of mental health, mental health 663 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:24,040 issues, emotions, how to process them, would I have got to the 664 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:26,920 place that I got to? Obviously, it's impossible to 665 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,680 say, but it feels like no because so, so much of my 666 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:34,640 journey was extended by living in the unknown and I had no idea 667 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:36,960 what was going on. I had no idea where to turn to. 668 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:40,480 So if that knowledge gap could have been reduced, how to help 669 00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:41,960 me massively. And, you know, same with with 670 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,120 relationships, like we've probably all done stuff or said 671 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:47,040 stuff from relationships we're not proud of, we're not happy 672 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:49,520 with or, you know, maybe treated people in in ways that we wish 673 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:51,320 we hadn't. But again, you know, we've 674 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:54,720 almost had to learn that to then understand what a healthy 675 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:56,880 commutative relationship looks like. 676 00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:00,160 Again, I wish we could move, have moved some of those lessons 677 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:03,040 to earlier in in school and, and you know, that that was the 678 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:04,760 stuff we were we were being taught about. 679 00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:07,560 So how that looks, you know, perhaps I don't know, but I 680 00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:09,719 would love to see more on the curriculum, you know, more, more 681 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:12,480 men coming in and talking through the things they've been 682 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:14,239 through, talking through the mental health issues, their 683 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:17,960 relationships, how to invest, how to find a home crime, 684 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:21,920 addiction, whatever it might be. I think those those lessons 685 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:24,639 would be being valuable. And then I think boys will take 686 00:34:24,639 --> 00:34:28,760 them out into the real world. Yeah, I mean we interviewed 2 687 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:32,760 secondary school teachers to my and wow, not a job I would want 688 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:35,679 to do be honest. Yeah, they have a tough gig. 689 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:39,480 If the old version of masculinity isn't working 690 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:41,679 anymore, what would you say replaces it? 691 00:34:41,679 --> 00:34:43,400 I think. What's really important for me 692 00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:47,360 is that it's about expanding out masculinity. 693 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:49,159 It's about expanding out this version of masculinity. 694 00:34:49,159 --> 00:34:53,960 It's not about shutting a sort of version of it down or or, you 695 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:56,960 know, labeling one version really, really bad because I 696 00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:00,440 think that that that's often actually way just to shut the 697 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:04,160 conversation down and push, push a lot of men away. 698 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:09,440 I find that we've maybe made the conversation slightly too binary 699 00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:13,240 around masculinity where it's either toxic masculinity at one 700 00:35:13,240 --> 00:35:15,280 end and all the representations of that. 701 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:19,200 We see that and that's the ones we see in the media or are kind 702 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,360 of antidote to that. The response to that has been to 703 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:24,120 say, well, let's talk about male mental health. 704 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:27,720 Let's talk about crying and encouragement to cry more, which 705 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:30,560 it's obviously a very important message. 706 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:34,600 Very noble message, but actually that is another extreme. 707 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:36,960 It's it's the opposite end of the spectrum. 708 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:41,080 And I think that if you probably took most men, they would they 709 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:43,720 wouldn't align themselves with these sort of most violent 710 00:35:43,720 --> 00:35:47,320 versions of masculinity. But they also probably aren't 711 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:50,120 going to be someone that wants to be overly emotionally 712 00:35:50,240 --> 00:35:52,480 expressive all the time. And I think if those are the 713 00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:56,320 only two sort of narratives we have, you'll find that we 714 00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:58,640 actually probably just switch most men off from the 715 00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:02,000 conversation. So I think it's about, you know, 716 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:04,800 helping expand masculinity out, recognizing there's a spectrum, 717 00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:08,400 recognizing there are parts of traditional masculinity, quote 718 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,560 UN quote, that that men enjoy and aspire to have. 719 00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:14,280 You know, a lot of men like things like strength and 720 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,880 leadership and independence that there are a grit resilience. 721 00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:21,280 If we try to sort of, you know, I think often we've maybe 722 00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:24,080 strayed into a place in recent years of quickly labeling some 723 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:26,880 of that stuff, you know, toxic or bad, which again, just pushes 724 00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:28,680 men away. So I think if we, if we 725 00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:31,480 recognize there are times for that and, and celebrating that, 726 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,320 we're also, you know, recognizing that doesn't come at 727 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:37,720 the expense of vulnerability and compassion and, and empathy and 728 00:36:37,720 --> 00:36:40,200 care and community and, and things like that. 729 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:43,920 We, we are literally built as humans to be able to, to do 730 00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:45,640 both. You know, we have, we have modes 731 00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:47,000 for, for strength and compassion. 732 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:50,680 So I think trying to, trying to shut one down doesn't make 733 00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:51,920 sense. So for me, it's, you know, it's 734 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:54,720 really about expanding that, that version of masculinity, 735 00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:57,040 what it looks like for each person is different. 736 00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:59,520 You know, it's not, I haven't got a sort of 10 point checklist 737 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,800 here of just do this and you're a man because we're all 738 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:04,040 different. I mean, that would be lovely 739 00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:06,080 easy, right? But you know, we're all, we're 740 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:08,800 all different. So I think it's, it's just, it's 741 00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:11,080 just recognizing again, you know, like with like with the 742 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:12,840 emotions we talked about earlier, it's, it's helping 743 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:16,240 people realize that we are more expansive as men than we have 744 00:37:16,240 --> 00:37:18,320 sometimes allowed men to realize. 745 00:37:19,240 --> 00:37:22,000 And then how men put that stuff into interaction and practice 746 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:25,560 will be different for each man. But it's, it's not where we're 747 00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:27,160 at the moment. The place we're at is just, 748 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:30,080 we've just told men there's a very, very narrow way of being a 749 00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:32,160 man and that's it. So I think it's just helping 750 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:35,080 them to expand that version out. And then, you know, how they put 751 00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:37,240 that in into practices is up to them. 752 00:37:37,240 --> 00:37:40,360 And then I, you know, I would love to see us expand out the 753 00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:42,800 conversation on masculinity more, which which we are doing 754 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:44,960 in in pockets, you know, see if you're doing on your podcast, we 755 00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:48,560 are seeing it happen. But again, if we have that quite 756 00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:52,000 binary conversation on on masculinity, we're missing a lot 757 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:55,640 of the stuff that happens in in the middle, which I think is I 758 00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:58,240 believe is how we get through to boys and how we get through to 759 00:37:58,240 --> 00:38:00,760 men. So, you know, if we talk about 760 00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:04,960 male mental health, actually that's quite abstract for a lot 761 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:07,760 of men. They, they, they find the idea 762 00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:10,160 of mental health quite nebulous and quite hard to kind of relate 763 00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:13,160 to. What what I found is, is a 764 00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:16,080 really great way to get through to boys and men is talking about 765 00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:18,680 the actual things they're going through every day, the things 766 00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:20,800 they're sat with, the experiences they hold. 767 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:24,000 That means having some difficult conversations and talking about 768 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:26,720 sticky subjects, but it means talking about things like 769 00:38:26,720 --> 00:38:30,400 erectile dysfunction and porn addiction and sex and dating, 770 00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:35,680 hair loss, addictions, gambling, gaming, purpose, money, work, 771 00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:38,160 fatherhood. I think these are the things 772 00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:41,920 that boys and men are actually sat with and carrying. 773 00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:44,200 I think we can have better conversations about that. 774 00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:46,960 We'll be having better conversations about masculinity. 775 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:49,840 And you know, you are talking about mental health. 776 00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:51,640 You might not have named it explicitly, but if you're 777 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:53,880 talking about erectile dysfunction, you are talking 778 00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:56,320 about mental health. So I think that's that's how we 779 00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:58,120 get through to more boys and men, I think. 780 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:03,080 And do you think for parents, that conversation is better 781 00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:08,760 coming from a man than a woman? I think it depends, Yeah, I 782 00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:10,040 think. I think it depends. 783 00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:15,400 It depends on the person. I think generally I would say it 784 00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:19,320 would be good coming from a man because they have often had that 785 00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:22,320 experience. But also I think that there's a 786 00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:26,040 certain sort of competitive, performative nature that happens 787 00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:29,560 between men. I think men are often trying to 788 00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:32,320 perform in front of other men and often those barriers aren't 789 00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:34,400 in place when it comes to talking to a woman. 790 00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:38,240 So I think, yeah, I think it really, really depends on the 791 00:39:38,240 --> 00:39:41,440 situation where you may find that in some cases, boys and men 792 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:43,920 find it easier to open up to to a woman because they don't feel 793 00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:46,480 like they're trying to prove anything where they they might 794 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:47,760 be with a man. But obviously, you know it 795 00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:50,560 depends on on each person's individual circumstances. 796 00:39:51,240 --> 00:39:53,000 It's also the person most equipped to have the 797 00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:55,400 conversation as well, right? Because just because you're a 798 00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:58,240 man doesn't mean that you can talk eloquently about men's 799 00:39:58,240 --> 00:40:00,080 mental health or reptile dysfunction to that. 800 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:02,240 I mean, just because you've got that body part yourself, it 801 00:40:02,240 --> 00:40:04,440 might make me, might mean you're terrible at. 802 00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:07,200 Bring up the conversation and you could be a woman and maybe 803 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:09,920 not have the personal experience, but you can have the 804 00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:13,360 empathy and the language and the awareness and the compassion to 805 00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:15,400 have that conversation. So yeah, I definitely agree. 806 00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:19,840 It's, I think there is strength to obviously to men having that 807 00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:23,800 conversation, but the right person who's equipped I think is 808 00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:25,280 probably more important as well. Definitely. 809 00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:28,400 Yeah, agreed. I got off the trainer, so sorry 810 00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:30,440 I have to tell you the story and I was just nipping into 811 00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:34,840 Sainsbury's and there were two older men that were in the 60s 812 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:37,880 standing outside Sainsbury's and I just caught a snippet of their 813 00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:39,600 conversation as they walked past them. 814 00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:43,040 One of them had his arm on the other and he said listen mate, 815 00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:48,400 if you ever need a safe space I can always make a bed of my 816 00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:50,160 house. But you don't need to say 817 00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:52,160 anything. You just need to knock on my 818 00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:55,640 door. That's just made my day. 819 00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:57,680 I've. Got I've got shivered this USA 820 00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:01,640 now That's that's that's lovely. And you know, it's important to 821 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:04,200 reflect that as well, right? Because I think sometimes, like, 822 00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:07,680 you know, we are here to talk about what's going on and the 823 00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:11,280 reality is quite bad often and the shit is bad. 824 00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:13,800 But there's loads of examples of that going around. 825 00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:16,120 You know, there's loads of examples of men supporting other 826 00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:17,680 men. Like we did a session yesterday 827 00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:20,440 called the dad clinic and dad's come along and they asked 828 00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:24,960 questions and a couple of dads there had children with autism 829 00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:28,560 and ADHD. And it's incredible to see the 830 00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:31,360 men interacting with each other and be like, oh, I'm in the same 831 00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:34,080 situation. Have you tried this or what 832 00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:36,680 about that or talk Just are opening up the conversation as I 833 00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:39,720 think it's really important to reflect that men are doing it. 834 00:41:39,720 --> 00:41:42,440 There are spaces, there are individuals, there are 835 00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:45,120 friendship groups, they're actually having healthy 836 00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:47,920 conversations too. I think sometimes we don't 837 00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:49,760 amplify them, we don't platform them. 838 00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:52,080 It doesn't make the news because it's not going to get loads of 839 00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:55,400 clicks, but it is there and we need to amplify that too. 840 00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:57,880 Yeah, I think that you're, you know, that like you said, 841 00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:00,600 there's a certain narrative in, in the media that that we take, 842 00:42:00,720 --> 00:42:02,120 you know, we can often take as almost all men. 843 00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:05,760 And, and we sort of, you know, we sort of believe that men 844 00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:08,720 don't talk and they can't talk and they, they're emotionally 845 00:42:08,720 --> 00:42:11,400 illiterate and, you know, they don't have emotions. 846 00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:13,720 But actually I think, you know, you're so right that you'll find 847 00:42:13,720 --> 00:42:16,600 that a lot of men do want to talk, can talk. 848 00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:20,440 They've often just never been shown how to or what that space 849 00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:22,160 might look like. And, you know, they're bringing 850 00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:24,960 in their competitive baggage and their performative baggage. 851 00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:27,960 But actually, when that strips away, you'll, you'll find that 852 00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:31,880 men, men do want to bond and can bond and are there for each 853 00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:33,360 other. And, you know, I've seen it in 854 00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:36,840 my own friendship group. I think as I started to open up 855 00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:41,800 about what I was going through, you know, lo and behold, all I 856 00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:45,000 meant all my friends had stuff going on that they wanted to 857 00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:46,040 talk about. They didn't feel they could 858 00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:47,960 before. Actually, you know, we, we've 859 00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:49,840 created now my, my friendship group. 860 00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:52,320 We're, we're really comfortable talking about this stuff with 861 00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:53,360 each other. And, you know, we still get 862 00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:56,600 together and do the banter and the drinking and all the rest of 863 00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:59,120 it, you know, talk about sport, whatever it might be. 864 00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:02,200 But actually we've got a really nice place where when someone's 865 00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:03,960 struggling, they will message and say, lads, I could really do 866 00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:06,640 just meeting up and chatting about this thing And, and we do 867 00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:08,320 that. And I think, you know, just that 868 00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:11,160 feels so powerful to me. We, but we've had to, we've had 869 00:43:11,240 --> 00:43:13,520 to get ourselves to that place. That didn't just happen. 870 00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:17,720 We had to kind of create the environment where where that is 871 00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:19,520 is now. You know, I was going to say 872 00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:21,240 acceptable. It's always been acceptable, but 873 00:43:21,240 --> 00:43:23,400 where it was where people felt comfortable with it. 874 00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:25,720 Yeah, yeah. I love that. 875 00:43:25,720 --> 00:43:29,240 Sometimes it takes one person in a group to crack it, and then. 876 00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:32,320 Yeah. And what do you hope teenage 877 00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:34,040 boys will take from reading your book? 878 00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:42,280 I think I just want them to realise how normal, whatever it 879 00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:46,280 is they're carrying is, whatever stuff they've got going on, 880 00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:49,480 it's, it's normal, it's OK. It might, you know, it might be 881 00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:52,040 difficult, might be challenging. This, this stuff is stuff is 882 00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:53,720 challenging. We're talking about, you know, 883 00:43:53,720 --> 00:43:56,200 being human, humanity. It's, it's, it's not, it's not 884 00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:58,520 easy. But yeah, I just want them to 885 00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:02,040 realize that wherever they're at that that is OK. 886 00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:04,720 And, and whatever The thing is they're carrying, that is also 887 00:44:04,720 --> 00:44:06,600 OK. I think in particular when 888 00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:09,080 you're a young boy, some of the stuff we, we talked about, you 889 00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:11,800 know, reptile dysfunction or hair loss or body image, 890 00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:15,920 whatever it might be, it's such a massive thing to carry at that 891 00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:18,080 age. It's, it's all consuming and you 892 00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:21,320 feel like you're the only one in the world going through it. 893 00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:24,040 You know, I was, I was a really skinny boy. 894 00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:25,640 I went to a boy school, really skinny boy. 895 00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:29,080 I did not fit the typical masculine mould. 896 00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:34,000 And that, you know, I, I held all of that internally and I 897 00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:36,440 told myself I was wrong for it. I wasn't, I wasn't a good enough 898 00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:37,800 boy. I wasn't boy enough. 899 00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:41,160 That's just, that's just way too much emotional pressure to be 900 00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:44,080 carrying at that age. So I think I just want people to 901 00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:47,120 see themselves in the book and realize, oh, OK, this, this 902 00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:49,040 thing is normal. There aren't, you know, 903 00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:50,960 everyone's different. There are different paths I can 904 00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:53,160 take and not to shame themselves for it. 905 00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:57,520 I think that that's often, you know, boys and men often can get 906 00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:00,200 into a place of shaming themselves, berating themselves 907 00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:02,360 of not feeling good enough. I think that's, that's quite a 908 00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:06,080 core masculine wound. Someone described it to me as 909 00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:10,640 of, of not feeling good enough. And so men try to over index on 910 00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:13,920 stuff to feel good enough. They try to appear more manly 911 00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:16,200 to, to feel like they're good enough for themselves and good 912 00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:18,600 enough for others. And yeah, I just want people to 913 00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:21,520 read the book and realize they are already good enough, you 914 00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:22,560 know? I'm going to end with the 915 00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:26,240 question that can feel quite tried, but I think it's 916 00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:28,840 important. What's the one thing you wish 917 00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:32,080 someone had told you when you were a boy? 918 00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:35,240 There's more one more than one way to be a boy. 919 00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:37,240 There's more than one way there's not. 920 00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:41,200 Yeah, you know, these phrase man up, boy up even it's they're 921 00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:43,360 they're just, they're just meaningless. 922 00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:49,680 And I think that, you know, I, I can see why I ended up in the 923 00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:51,760 place where I was really struggling with my mental 924 00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:53,960 health. And having worked on this 925 00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:56,880 extensively through through therapy, I can see why I got 926 00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:00,200 myself that place because actually the this sort of seeds 927 00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:05,240 for that had been sown earlier when I was a boy where, you 928 00:46:05,240 --> 00:46:07,320 know, as I said, I didn't feel like I was fitting in. 929 00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:09,880 I went to school, boys school and I was skinny. 930 00:46:09,920 --> 00:46:12,480 I liked doing my homework. I didn't like football. 931 00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:15,880 I was scared of girls. I was shy, you know, I was, if 932 00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:19,200 you were to take the the sort of masculine code, I was not that 933 00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:22,040 basically. And I just gave myself so much 934 00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:25,080 pressure for that, so much shame, told myself I wasn't good 935 00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:27,800 enough, felt like I was a failure to my parents, which 936 00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:30,960 obviously is just horrible. I just carried so much, you 937 00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:34,000 know, and then that, that that sort of turned into what it did 938 00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:36,680 later in life. So I just wish that, you know, 939 00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:39,440 I'd known I was doing OK. And we're all unique. 940 00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:41,720 That's what makes us human. And that's the same with with 941 00:46:41,720 --> 00:46:44,400 being boys. And, you know, I've, I've 942 00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:46,200 learned that now. I've had to go through some 943 00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:49,360 stuff to, to learn that. But that's ultimately what I 944 00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:52,480 wanted the book to be, for people to realize that whoever 945 00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:56,600 they are, that's that's OK. That's amazing. 946 00:46:56,680 --> 00:46:57,400 Thank you, George. Thank you. 947 00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:02,400 Yeah, really, really great. And you can buy Be a Man about 948 00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:08,200 it, building a healthier idea of masculinity by in all good book 949 00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:13,640 shops, can't you, Elliot? You can, I mean Smith, Yeah. 950 00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:17,080 Waterstones and. Where? 951 00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:18,960 Where else can people find each other? 952 00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:21,520 I'm mainly on LinkedIn. Please connect. 953 00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:23,440 Please drop me a DM message. Yeah, I'm not. 954 00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:25,520 Yeah, LinkedIn, Instagram, but yeah, mainly LinkedIn. 955 00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:29,000 Amazing. Thank you so much for having me. 956 00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:29,960 Thank you. George.