This episode is supported by Movember, the leading charity
changing the face of Men's health.
Hello and welcome to To Be a Boy with Me, Jolie Brilly.
I'm me, Elliot Ray. Today's guest is George Bell,
author, speaker and Co founder of the men's platform Jack,
which explores the realities of men's lives and the issues they
often struggle to talk about. He spent more than a decade
working in the mental health space, helping to open up
conversations about shame, silence and the precious men
face. George is the author of Be a Man
About It, Building a Healthier Idea of Masculinity, a book that
digs into the enormous expectations placed on men and
boys today. In it, he explores everything
from male loneliness and mental health to the cultural scripts
that tell boys to suppress their emotions and man up.
Today, we're going to talk about the pressures boys grow up under
and why so many men struggle to ask for help and what parents
can do to raise boys who feel free to be emotionally literate,
compassionate and fully themselves.
George, welcome to the podcast. Jolie Elliott, Hello.
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Exciting to be here. It's so good to see you and we
are loving your house and we are loving your book, which we have
a copy of here. As you can see, it's got quite
dog eared because I read things in the bath.
So it's a little bit crumpled on this side, but it's so good.
Really, really enjoyed it. So let's get him.
My first question from reading it will be we've spent years
telling boys to man up. What do you think that phrase
has actually done to a generation of men?
It's funny, isn't it, because it, it's just a two word, two
word phrase. It feels, feels so harmless.
And I think it's it's used, it's you flippantly and humorously.
And I think often people use it with good intentions.
But I think the reality is that it's, it's almost put a muzzle
one on men and, and their experiences and how they talk
about their experiences. And it, it's sort of created
this very narrow box, very, very small box called, you know,
titled man or masculine that that we push men into.
And actually, I think, you know, what we're finding is that we
men and humans that outgrow these boxes, these boxes are too
small for them. But but they don't, they don't
know they can outgrow that box. They don't know they can live
outside of that box. I think it starts to create this
real pressure for men. And yeah, it it's sort of the
phrase almost implies that there's a blueprint that men
have to follow. I think that in the phrase man
up, it suggests that you've got to sort of man yourself up to a
very certain level. And that's how you be a man.
If you don't get to that level, then you know, you're, you're
not a man. Basically, I think we've, we've
made it a very binary sort of equation of you're either a man
or you're weak. And falling into that latter
part, being weak for men is often seen as like a cultural
death sentence really. So a lot of men do what they can
to over index on the former, you know, being a man, they they try
to do things to appear more masculine.
And that that might mean sleeping around or going to the
gym or trying to get physically fit, drinking more, bantering
more, whatever it might be. You know, men, men really want
to appear masculine. They want to appear like they're
they're manning up, you know, and I think that caused a lot of
men to to struggle. And I think we've, we've maybe
sort of created a generation of emotionally illiterate men,
frustrated men, repressed, angry, who, you know, don't know
where to put their stuff, their heavy stuff, their emotions,
their experiences. They don't, they don't think
they can talk about it. And that often comes out, I
think in, in some of the, you know, horrific statistics we're
seeing around addictions and crime and homelessness and, and
obviously suicide. So, you know, it's, it's, it's
just a phrase, it's just a two word phrase, you know, at the
face of it. And yet language is so, so
powerful. And I think it, yeah, it shuts
men down and and their experiences.
I have AT shirt that says woman up on it.
I wish I'd worn it actually for this interview.
I I thought when my kids were younger that we were actually
getting better at moving away from phrases like man up and
also things like boys don't cry those sorts of phrases, But I
feel like the pendulum sort of swung right back again in the
last few years. I remember when my son was very
young, he's about four, when we're in the park in Manchester,
and he fell over and a kid said and he was crying and a kid said
to him, boys don't cry, why are you crying?
And I was horrified. I couldn't actually believe a
kid had said that to him. And I was like, boys do cry, of
course they cry. What do you mean?
But now I don't think I'd be shocked by a kid saying that
because of all the influences they're getting externally.
Do you do? It was.
Is there evidence to show that that it's it got better and it
it was bad. It started to get better and now
it's getting worse again. I, I, I don't know if there's
stats or evidence like that, you know, there might be something
on it, but I, you know, I, I know, I know the feeling that I
have from what I see in commentary and social media and,
and the media headlines and that, that's the feeling I share
the, the same with you. You know, the, we see the, the
toxic, harmful influences dominating the conversation
around men and masculinity. And you know, we, you know, we,
we obviously know that's not, that's a very small part of
masculinity. But I think those are the, the
stories and the people that grab the headlines and I think that
create that furthers this cultural narrative of men are a
certain way or men should be a certain way.
And part of that is men do not Christ, you know, it's obviously
different, different households and, you know, some some
friendship groups and some boys and some men will will be
complete, complete comfortable crying.
But I think the overall sort of cultural narrative and cultural
message still seems to be that one where men need to be to be
strong and, and crying, crying doesn't feel very masculine.
And I think even if you take men who maybe, you know, consciously
know that the crying is OK, it's a good thing.
It's a natural thing. A lot of men may have been
coming up, you know, even for myself, you know, for you,
Elliot, maybe for any man listening to this, you've,
you're coming up against maybe decades of conditioning around
masculinity and how to be a man. So although we might know that
crying is OK when it comes to the ACT, it can still feel
really unmasculine. You're you're kind of fighting
against these these cultural norms.
So even if we were to say to a boy, you know, or a man, it's OK
to cry. It's not like that just suddenly
flip to switch. Oh yeah, OK, that's that's fine.
Then you're fighting against decades of conditioning.
Yeah. Was there a moment in your own
life when you realised the traditional idea of being a man
wasn't working? Yes, yeah, very, very acutely
for me, it was just over 10 years ago.
I was, I was really struggling with my mental health.
I was in a, in a really difficult dark place.
I, I just, I felt like I was in a, in a, in a hole to be honest
or, or like a, to be honest, more like a sort of tunnel where
I just, I couldn't see any way out.
There was, there was no kind of light in that tunnel for me.
And that resulted in me making plans to take my own life.
That, that was the, that was where I'd, I'd ended up.
So obviously, you know, heavy difficult situation, but I think
what made that more challenging, obviously that, you know, it's a
very, very strong mental health issue element to that.
But I think what made it more challenging was that I just had
no idea what was going on. I had no language for any of it.
I can talk about it a bit more articulately now, but back then
I didn't know what it was. I didn't have labels.
I didn't know how to describe it.
I didn't know the range of emotions that I was
experiencing. And, you know, probably the
hardest thing is that I didn't think I could talk about it.
You know, I was adhering to this man code of, of not talking
about the things that we go through, not talking about our
struggle. So despite feeling like I was in
this this tunnel alone, I didn't feel I had a right to be able to
talk about it. And, you know, it's it's it's
sad when I look back on that because actually I had an
amazing network around me, really good group of friend,
friends, loving family, had a supportive girlfriend at the
time. And, you know, none of them knew
what I was going through, which I think, yeah, I just, it just
makes me feel really sad when I, when I kind of relive that
experience. Like, you know, I mean, even
remember, I remember a conversation, a very, very
specific conversation with my my family.
I sat with my mum, dad and brother, and we were talking
about a holiday that we were going to go on the following
year. Everyone's getting really
excited about it. The thought that I had at the
time was the holiday sounds great, but I'm not going to be
here to see it. That's, that's the thought that
that was going from mine, which, you know, no one should be in
that position to feel that way. But I didn't say that.
You know, I just, I kept laughing along around how great
the holiday sounds. If I had just taken a moment
there to say, do you know what, guys, I'm, I'm actually really
struggling. I think I need help.
It would have been there that support.
But I, you know, I just, I felt that I wasn't, I wasn't able to
because it's not, it's not what men do.
So you think things got worse and worse for me, I was, I was
avoiding confronting it and things got worse and worse until
I, I obviously got to the point where I was outwardly displaying
symptoms of stuff not I wasn't in a good place.
I was withdrawn and cold and distant, getting angry and
frustrated, snapping at people. My girlfriend at the time called
me out for my behaviour. She said like, what is going on
with you? I think then I just, I was
confronted with the fact that I had to open up.
I almost, I couldn't hide anymore and these words just
poured out of me. They were not articulate at all.
There was no kind of literacy to them.
I think I just sort of said I don't feel good, but that that
was the start, you know, that set a sort of chain of events in
motion where she got my mum involved.
Both of them got me into medical pathways.
And, you know, it was a long process, one I resisted for a
long time, again, because I felt was a man, I shouldn't be doing
this kind of thing. But eventually that landed me
into therapy. And, you know, we worked on the
mental health stuff. But then actually we went
deeper. And I've realized that it was
almost my sense of masculinity and being a man who got me to
that place. I realized I had to almost
deconstruct my version of masculinity and, and kind of
rebuild it. And yeah, you know, that it's
obviously been a, it's been a journey since then, but it, it
all came back to, to that moment really for me.
So obviously it was, it was horrendous.
And I went through a lot. Me and my family went through a
lot. But actually, you know, I choose
to look at the the positives that have come from that now.
Like it has 100% made me a better, better man.
And it's it's got me where I am today.
I mean, thank you for sharing that and well done for pulling
yourself out of it and and for telling your girlfriend how you
felt at the time. I know that for, you know,
certainly as a parent listening to that and parent and boys, and
there will be a lot of parents of boys listening to that.
They'll be thinking, what if that's my son?
What do I do in that situation? Is there anything your parents
could have done earlier? They obviously did a lot once
you opened up, but do you think with hindsight there was
anything that they could have done to encourage you to have
opened up or to have helped you earlier than they then you were?
You got the help that you needed.
Yes, it's, it's a really good question.
I think it's one of those things that you, you know, you, you can
go down a rabbit hole with, right.
And with the benefit of hindsight, I could have done
more. Everyone else, you know, other
people could have done more. It was, it's, it's such a hard
thing to go through. I mean, you know, this was, this
was over 10 years ago. The mental health conversation
was not a current 1. You know, my, I didn't have any
kind of emotional literacy around this stuff.
I don't think my parents really did either.
So I think that was already a bit of a difficult situation.
But I think, I think maybe yes, there was.
But definitely the first thing to say for me is if you are a
parent in that, in this situation right now, I know how
heavy it can be. I think when, when I was going
through it myself, it was so all consuming that the whole,
everything just revolved around me.
I couldn't see past my own struggle and I just had no time
or empathy for anyone around me. But actually, you know, I've
spoken to my parents a lot about it now.
I know how heavily it weighed on them and, and you know, the
distress that it caused them. And, you know, when someone is
struggling, it does affect the the people we're around.
So I think the first thing to say is, you know, if, if it is a
struggle for you right now, then like it is, it is OK to to feel
that way. And please as a first step, I
think build your own support network.
Like I swore my mum to secrecy. I was so I felt so ashamed of
how I was feeling that I didn't want anyone else to know any
other friends or family friends or, you know, family because I
didn't want them to think I was less of a man.
So I swore her to secrecy. But then actually that, you
know, I was, I was doing it with good intentions, but it was
actually quite selfish of me because she was then carrying
this huge burden that she wasn't equipped to, to carry.
And, you know, I think that that has had ramifications.
Like she's, she's not a great sleeper.
My mum, we, we always sort of make jokes about it, but we
talked about it in the summer actually.
We had a real sort of nice heart to heart.
And she said that actually, it started just 10 years ago when I
was struggling because she was lying awake worrying about what
was going to happen to me. Obviously I got better, but
actually that has now stayed with her for the last 10 years,
almost as like a, you know, a post stress disorder type thing
that she's never been able to sleep properly.
So I think that that was such a heavyweight to to carry.
So I think that'd be my first thing like, please build your
support network, talk to friends, talk to family, talk to
charities, get advice from a professional.
I think get that emotional support network for yourself,
but also any kind of like, you know, professional advice as
well. And then I think in terms of
actually reaching out to your son, I think that persistence
can be key when when we start to have these conversations as a
family. I completely shut down.
I think I actually got angry. I was almost angry that, you
know, people ask me questions about it completely, well
meaning questions. But I got anger as a response.
I think because I felt so angry, I was blaming the world and
blaming others. And that was a place to put my
anger. But actually, you know, my mum
didn't give up. She sort of kept poking and
prodding gently. And I think that gradually
removed some of the the barriers that I built up of my own shame
and not being able to talk about this stuff.
The same with like therapy. She recommended I should go to
therapy, acted or responded really angrily.
Men don't need therapy. I don't need to go to therapy.
She suggested a couple more times over a couple of months.
And then I'd come, I'd come round to that.
I had to almost sort of get myself round to that idea.
So I think it was good that she didn't give up.
I think it, you know, it might have been easy for her to to
sort of give up how trying to have that conversation with me
when I was responding. Probably not, not a nice way.
So I think definitely persistence.
And then, you know, I think just try to do it sort of gently in
an, in an open-ended way. I think that that if men feel
they're being attacked or accused or shamed or judged, I
think that can make them them shut down.
You know, if you were to ask your boy why you're so stressed
all the time, that would probably make him shut down as
if it was a more sort of gentle open-ended question.
Like I've noticed not been yourself recently.
What's been going on that might, might create the space for for
them to open up. So it's, it's not easy.
Like I, you know, I really know it is, it is challenging and
it's, it's probably not going to be a simple smooth conversation
straight away, but I just know that I'm, yeah, I'm glad that my
parents sort of didn't give up there.
They were persistent with it and and that just helped remove
these these barriers of being a man that that I build up where I
felt I couldn't talk about it. So, so powerful, George.
I think a lot of the stuff you're saying resonates so
deeply with myself and also stories I've heard from others
and friends and family. And he spoke about like 10 years
ago and how the mental health conversations changed massively.
And at the time, 10 years ago, we weren't really speaking
openly about mental health, let alone men's mental health.
My own experience of similar to yours was 10 years ago.
And I remember not having the language or the understanding
about what was going on. And I think that made it a lot
harder. And once I did get a diagnosis
and understanding and it and it and it named, it was named, I
felt better because I had an understanding about what I was
going on. I didn't think I was just going
crazy. That was something that I was
experiencing. How important do you think it
is? Like language and naming and
having the ability to say this is what I have, this is what I'm
going through and attach it to a diagnosis.
Do you think that's helpful for men in regards to coming out the
other side? I do, yeah.
I think there is there will be a resistance to naming and to
labels. You know, I know again, you
know, being a man you kept given a certain label, it can feel
weak. Like I know when I was given the
labels from a doctor that I had major depressive disorder and
generalized anxiety disorder, that wasn't very nice.
I didn't feel like I had clarity.
I actually felt worse. I felt like less of a man, I
felt smaller. So I think that I think that we
have to recognize the, the power of, of language, language and
we've already covered it with, with a phrase like man up.
And I think clinical diagnosis can almost have that same.
They're very charged words, right?
But also I think that we, if we're able to name something,
we're able to understand it and maybe work through it.
I think it's, it's, it's Brené Brown who says the thinks the
closer we can voice an emotion on, the closer we can get to
talking about an emotion, the easier it is to, to kind of work
through it and process it. So I think, yes, I think from
that regard, once we can label something, we can then build a
plan around it. We then know how to, to respond
to it and action it. You know, when I, when I did get
my labels, although I hated them, I was then able to
research around them. I was able to understand what
was going on. You know, often men can maybe
think in quite linear ways. And I know that.
I know that's what I did. I went into sort of linear
action plan of what is this thing, what's the science behind
it, what's the biology? What causes it?
What are some of the things I can do to start to combat it?
And I was able to to do some of that stuff.
So I think it can be helpful in in that regard, Yeah.
It was Sophia's to me, like starting early with kids,
talking about emotions is so vital and with boys in
particular. And while you were talking as
well, it occurred to me like even when kids don't need it,
having them having some experience with therapy before
they need it could be positive where they can.
They talk to a therapist, they realize they're not an ogre and
they are going to have nice conversations with them and be
helpful. Then if you are struggling,
you'd probably be more receptive to the notion of therapy and
therefore receptive to asking for help when you need it.
But not every. I mean, that is a privilege that
not many people can afford. But and I don't know how you do
that without, you know, paying for a therapist.
But talking about me, I have one child who will not talk like
does not talk about emotions, plays rugby, you know, beefcake
very like man will be a man's man, you know, very not a man's
man. I've used a terrible phraser
will be like very, you know what I mean?
It's very stereotypical voyage. And another one that doesn't
shut up and tells me everything. And we'll talk about all the dis
emotions all the time. And with the first one, I worry
about him a lot. And that, yeah, it just feels to
me like it's this. He's been told no, we don't talk
about that and it isn't natural to him to do it anyway.
So finding ways to poke that bear is have rather than just be
like it's just somebody that doesn't talk about his emotions.
And I think what's, what was really important to me is that
this, this doesn't necessarily have to be about getting all
boys and men to a place where they're talking all the time
about what they're feeling and what they're experiencing.
I think that would be fantastic. And we know the, the power of
talking, but some, some men and some boys will, will probably
stay resistant to it. Others are, are naturally more
expressive than others. So I think that's, that's not
the only sort of solution. I think the, the main part of it
for me is helping them have better emotional understanding
and literacy. So understanding their range of
emotions and the fact that every single emotion has a place.
It's not good or bad. It's a source of information.
It's a, it's, you know, it's a biological tool.
It's, it's there for a reason. It's it's human specific, not
gender specific. So I think if we can get people
to a place with that and understand the things they're
feeling are, are normal and human, that's almost the first
step. And then how people process that
and work through it will be different.
So for some people that might be talking for some boys and some
men that might be, you know, being active or finding a
purpose or going for a run or going and punching a bag at a
gym, you know, doing a boxing workout.
That might be how they, you know, they might get space
saying I'm really stressed. I'm going to go for a 10K run.
That's how I'm going to work through it.
That, for me is fantastic. That is emotional literacy and
action doesn't always have to be to be talking.
So I think that was important to say.
But it is about, yeah, making boys and men realize that our
emotions are not these things we should be fighting against.
They're not these kind of invaders that they're there to
help us, not hinder us, even though some emotions can
obviously feel quite distressing are.
There any common mistakes that you see parents making with the
boys? It's obviously really hard to
parent these days. I'm, I'm not a parent myself as
well, I should say. So I think I have to, I have to
sort of give that, that caveat. But I, you know, I know a lot of
parents and I know how hard it is to, to parent these days.
You're when you're, you're both parents as well, right?
And you'll, you'll be getting the conflicting messages and
social media and one guru says this, another one says that.
So I know you're getting, you know, a million different
messages. And I think also the the
conversation around boys and girls and masculinity can feel
quite confusing because there is an element of boys will be boys
sometimes that there is an element of that, you know, that
there is biology at play. For example, boys often have a
more natural leaning towards activity and adventure and and
risk taking that that can be a biological thing.
So to some degrees that there is a yeah boys will be boys piece.
But then we know there is also a very strong sort of cultural
conditioning and social conditioning piece.
And I think it's hard to know where that line is sometimes.
Like you might see, you know, you might see people say that,
you know, we don't have to give boys action men figures anymore
and girls Barbie figures. We don't have to do blue and
pink colour thing. You know, we don't have to do
that stuff. But then I think, you know, it
can be hard knowing well, where do I encourage a boy to do the
things that boys like? And where actually do I help
them step out of these sort of predetermined gender boxes that
that we talk about? So I know it's really, really
challenging. I think this is the first thing
to say, but I think you know me, maybe a sort of common mistake
that can often be made is misunderstanding boys responses
or, or emotions. You know, I already talked about
my my own experience earlier where my response to dealing
with what I was going through was to become withdrawn and cold
and distant and actually quite angry and frustrated and, and
snappy at people. Obviously, you know, they, they
aren't, that's not a nice response for people having to
deal with that. But I think maybe sometimes we
can just see that response and criticize the boy or the man for
that response and say, you know, why is he like that?
Why is he so angry rather than maybe going deeper and, and
asking or what's he trying to say or what's what's causing him
to, to feel that way? And if, if we do, I'm not, I'm
not condoning like anger or violence or anything like that,
by the way. But I, I think that, yeah,
sometimes we miss, we see what's happening at the surface level
and we miss what's going on underneath.
And if we know that the boys aren't often as emotionary
emotionally literature as as girls, then actually that their
anger might be their way of of trying to say, I really need
help right now. So I think that that can be
something we often often miss. Do you know, when growing up,
there was a couple of boys that I was just so angry all the
time. Like literally, you don't want
to go out of them because they're going to start a fight.
Like, I don't want to have a fight tonight.
So you just stay away from them. But they were so angry.
And at the time I just thought, oh, they just like fighting.
I didn't think too much of it. They were just angry people.
But now in my big age, now I'm more experienced, I look back
and I'm like, what was going on in their lives?
Like what were they dealing with at home?
What was going on? Because there must have been
something going on by the time we just thought they were
actually, some people thought they were quite cool and people,
some people were scared of them because, you know, they were,
they were big and strong and they were like fighting.
But I completely agree. Sometimes we don't see what's
behind that. And you know, we, we, we punish
the bad behaviour. And of course we can't condone
violence. It's not good, but looking
underneath and saying actually there's something going on here
and that person becomes a perpetrator, but they're
probably a victim in some part of their life as well, and I
think that often gets lost. Yeah.
I would say to my kids, hurt people, hurt people.
Like when you when they come up against other kids that are
bullies and being awful to them, I always say they're just not
happy. They're really unhappy kids and
you've got to remember they've got some awful things going on
at home. Yeah, it's no, it's so true.
You know, it's the, the, the trolls on social media that the
people, the people that have addictions that we label as a
mess or, you know, homeless people that can often get
labeled as lazy, all these horrible things that get thrown
around. Actually, we, we missed that.
Yeah, they, they are probably the ones struggling the most,
the ones that need the most help, ones that have got the
most stuff going on. And, you know, getting you to,
to your point, you can't condone addictions or, you know,
bullying online. We, we people have to take
personal responsibility for their actions.
And I think it's always an and you know, it's not full stop.
It's an and we can look at stuff holistically and systemically
and ask how have we created the environment where that person
has ended up thinking that that's the thing they have to do
to get through the day, basically.
That's difficult though, isn't it?
I think that framing is tough and I think it's probably part
of the reason why we haven't addressed some of those issues
that probably disproportionately effects men like gambling and
like violence, because there is a victim at the end of the day,
and that has to be the priority as as well.
And so I think it is, it is tough.
And I think at a government level, I don't think that that
approach is taken really at all. Maybe it's starting to to have a
look at that. But as individuals seeing
someone who on the face of it has done bad things, as someone
who needs support, it's really hard to get your head around.
Really hard, challenging, really challenging, really tough.
And I don't mean to be a negative Nancy, but it feels to
me like I've been tell you what, I've been rewatching Educating
Yorkshire. It's so good.
And like even the really old episodes, I'm watching them all
again with my kids. We're all loving it.
It's great for the for my eldest son who's now in secondary
school to see the teachers perspective through it, but and
also see how kids are behaving in other schools.
And so he's really enjoying it. And one of the teachers actually
was one of said on the episode yesterday, No kid wants to come
into school and misbehave. It's attention.
They're like, please help me when they come in and they're
naughty. But there's so that school that
it's based around is a small secondary school and the
teachers are so involved in the kids lives and the kids get to
know the teachers individually. They really know about that, the
insurance and outs of their lives.
And I don't feel like that happens at the secondary school
my kid goes to. It's massive.
He gets called boy by the teachers you bought, you know,
because they don't know his name.
Because. It was so old school.
I know and, and there's no clips around there.
There's no places for kids to go.
So there's no, the only adults that really know my kid properly
and me and my partner, there's no words of opportunity for him
to find another safe adult outside of his family that could
support him. And as a result, like round
here, we've got gangs, we've got kids that work around
Balaclavasan, we've had stabbings, we've had some really
serious incidents. And when I've talked to the MP
about it, it's like, well, we'll put CCTV cameras up.
I'm like, well, so great. So we'll just move them onto
another patch, shall we? Or maybe they need something to
do. Maybe they need a place to go
where there's a safe adult that they can talk to about something
and that just has all of that stuff is vanished.
There's no safety Nets for kids anymore.
And it seems to me it disproportionately impacts boys.
Yeah, and you're, you know, you perfectly described the issue
there. Let's put cameras up.
OK, Let's treat the symptoms again.
Let's let's just treat the thing, you know, things at the
bottom of the river rather than going upstream and asking why
are people falling in and in the 1st place?
And I think you're right that one of the big systemic issues
for boys and men now, I think is that the collapse of third
spaces. We, we have the first spaces at
home, second places at work, and then third spaces you places
like churches, gyms, pubs, parks, community centers.
A lot of that stuff is collapsing, you know, because of
funding or whatever it might be. COVID obviously played a hand,
but those those places where people meet and you know, men
meet other men and form those bonds and those connections are
disappearing. Actually, the second space is
more challenging than ever. A lot of people are working
remotely, not in the office all the time.
So they might just be at home all the time, sometimes on their
own. They might be living by
themselves so that you know, where are they?
Where are they forming these social bonds?
Where are they? Where are they releasing the
energy they have talking about their emotions?
A lot of them aren't. And so it again, it just it just
builds up and it comes out in in unhealthy ways.
You can, again, not condoning it, but you can see why someone
might end up with an addiction because that's they don't for a
man that that maybe struggles to process stuff that becomes the
the outlet. So yeah, I think systemically
that's that's a big, big piece we have to focus on.
And how do we do that? So, you know, there's some nice,
there's a new research by Global Institute Women's Leadership
came out last week showed that I think it's 31% of Gen.
Z men believe that a wife should obey their husband.
And I was reflecting on how we came to that, how we got here.
And I think a lot of it is what you said there, George.
I think a lot of young people are not actually talking.
A lot of young boys are not talking to older men who are
actually in relationships, who are actually in healthy
relationships, who work, who parent, who who live, and not
talking to them about how they're actually living their
life. Because all of the men that I
know who are in happy partnerships, like their wife
does not obey them in in that sense, right?
They have a two way communication and it's a
partnership. And sometimes this person leads,
sometimes that person leads and they have arguments they make
up. And that's, that's what a
relationship looks like. But I think a lot of young
people are getting their ideas from online, from social media,
from the people who shall not be named.
But, you know, we know who they are.
And they're getting those ideas about what it means to be a man
and a husband and a partner through some random person on
the Internet who's just there to make money from them.
So how do we connect more young boys with older men who can give
them the reality of actually life actually looks like when it
comes to relationships and work and everything else?
Yeah, I would, I would love to do more in schools.
You know, I think, I think we should do more in schools.
I'm sure people have, you know, this it's not, it's not a new
solution, but I think actually that's where a lot of our
challenges and issues and problems and beliefs around the
world start. And you know, it's, it's a
common line that, you know, we we go to school and we'll learn
about algebra and Pythagoras theore and all that kind of
stuff. But then you you don't learn
about relationships and money and debt and investing and what
it's like buying a home and addictions, all that kind of
stuff. You have to almost learn it for
yourself out in the real world, which has tragic consequences
for a lot of people. Like I had to learn my own
lessons around mental health and mental health issues, which
almost cost me my life that could have gone, gone a very,
very different way. If I had had better lessons
earlier on around definitions of mental health, mental health
issues, emotions, how to process them, would I have got to the
place that I got to? Obviously, it's impossible to
say, but it feels like no because so, so much of my
journey was extended by living in the unknown and I had no idea
what was going on. I had no idea where to turn to.
So if that knowledge gap could have been reduced, how to help
me massively. And, you know, same with with
relationships, like we've probably all done stuff or said
stuff from relationships we're not proud of, we're not happy
with or, you know, maybe treated people in in ways that we wish
we hadn't. But again, you know, we've
almost had to learn that to then understand what a healthy
commutative relationship looks like.
Again, I wish we could move, have moved some of those lessons
to earlier in in school and, and you know, that that was the
stuff we were we were being taught about.
So how that looks, you know, perhaps I don't know, but I
would love to see more on the curriculum, you know, more, more
men coming in and talking through the things they've been
through, talking through the mental health issues, their
relationships, how to invest, how to find a home crime,
addiction, whatever it might be. I think those those lessons
would be being valuable. And then I think boys will take
them out into the real world. Yeah, I mean we interviewed 2
secondary school teachers to my and wow, not a job I would want
to do be honest. Yeah, they have a tough gig.
If the old version of masculinity isn't working
anymore, what would you say replaces it?
I think. What's really important for me
is that it's about expanding out masculinity.
It's about expanding out this version of masculinity.
It's not about shutting a sort of version of it down or or, you
know, labeling one version really, really bad because I
think that that that's often actually way just to shut the
conversation down and push, push a lot of men away.
I find that we've maybe made the conversation slightly too binary
around masculinity where it's either toxic masculinity at one
end and all the representations of that.
We see that and that's the ones we see in the media or are kind
of antidote to that. The response to that has been to
say, well, let's talk about male mental health.
Let's talk about crying and encouragement to cry more, which
it's obviously a very important message.
Very noble message, but actually that is another extreme.
It's it's the opposite end of the spectrum.
And I think that if you probably took most men, they would they
wouldn't align themselves with these sort of most violent
versions of masculinity. But they also probably aren't
going to be someone that wants to be overly emotionally
expressive all the time. And I think if those are the
only two sort of narratives we have, you'll find that we
actually probably just switch most men off from the
conversation. So I think it's about, you know,
helping expand masculinity out, recognizing there's a spectrum,
recognizing there are parts of traditional masculinity, quote
UN quote, that that men enjoy and aspire to have.
You know, a lot of men like things like strength and
leadership and independence that there are a grit resilience.
If we try to sort of, you know, I think often we've maybe
strayed into a place in recent years of quickly labeling some
of that stuff, you know, toxic or bad, which again, just pushes
men away. So I think if we, if we
recognize there are times for that and, and celebrating that,
we're also, you know, recognizing that doesn't come at
the expense of vulnerability and compassion and, and empathy and
care and community and, and things like that.
We, we are literally built as humans to be able to, to do
both. You know, we have, we have modes
for, for strength and compassion.
So I think trying to, trying to shut one down doesn't make
sense. So for me, it's, you know, it's
really about expanding that, that version of masculinity,
what it looks like for each person is different.
You know, it's not, I haven't got a sort of 10 point checklist
here of just do this and you're a man because we're all
different. I mean, that would be lovely
easy, right? But you know, we're all, we're
all different. So I think it's, it's just, it's
just recognizing again, you know, like with like with the
emotions we talked about earlier, it's, it's helping
people realize that we are more expansive as men than we have
sometimes allowed men to realize.
And then how men put that stuff into interaction and practice
will be different for each man. But it's, it's not where we're
at the moment. The place we're at is just,
we've just told men there's a very, very narrow way of being a
man and that's it. So I think it's just helping
them to expand that version out. And then, you know, how they put
that in into practices is up to them.
And then I, you know, I would love to see us expand out the
conversation on masculinity more, which which we are doing
in in pockets, you know, see if you're doing on your podcast, we
are seeing it happen. But again, if we have that quite
binary conversation on on masculinity, we're missing a lot
of the stuff that happens in in the middle, which I think is I
believe is how we get through to boys and how we get through to
men. So, you know, if we talk about
male mental health, actually that's quite abstract for a lot
of men. They, they, they find the idea
of mental health quite nebulous and quite hard to kind of relate
to. What what I found is, is a
really great way to get through to boys and men is talking about
the actual things they're going through every day, the things
they're sat with, the experiences they hold.
That means having some difficult conversations and talking about
sticky subjects, but it means talking about things like
erectile dysfunction and porn addiction and sex and dating,
hair loss, addictions, gambling, gaming, purpose, money, work,
fatherhood. I think these are the things
that boys and men are actually sat with and carrying.
I think we can have better conversations about that.
We'll be having better conversations about masculinity.
And you know, you are talking about mental health.
You might not have named it explicitly, but if you're
talking about erectile dysfunction, you are talking
about mental health. So I think that's that's how we
get through to more boys and men, I think.
And do you think for parents, that conversation is better
coming from a man than a woman? I think it depends, Yeah, I
think. I think it depends.
It depends on the person. I think generally I would say it
would be good coming from a man because they have often had that
experience. But also I think that there's a
certain sort of competitive, performative nature that happens
between men. I think men are often trying to
perform in front of other men and often those barriers aren't
in place when it comes to talking to a woman.
So I think, yeah, I think it really, really depends on the
situation where you may find that in some cases, boys and men
find it easier to open up to to a woman because they don't feel
like they're trying to prove anything where they they might
be with a man. But obviously, you know it
depends on on each person's individual circumstances.
It's also the person most equipped to have the
conversation as well, right? Because just because you're a
man doesn't mean that you can talk eloquently about men's
mental health or reptile dysfunction to that.
I mean, just because you've got that body part yourself, it
might make me, might mean you're terrible at.
Bring up the conversation and you could be a woman and maybe
not have the personal experience, but you can have the
empathy and the language and the awareness and the compassion to
have that conversation. So yeah, I definitely agree.
It's, I think there is strength to obviously to men having that
conversation, but the right person who's equipped I think is
probably more important as well. Definitely.
Yeah, agreed. I got off the trainer, so sorry
I have to tell you the story and I was just nipping into
Sainsbury's and there were two older men that were in the 60s
standing outside Sainsbury's and I just caught a snippet of their
conversation as they walked past them.
One of them had his arm on the other and he said listen mate,
if you ever need a safe space I can always make a bed of my
house. But you don't need to say
anything. You just need to knock on my
door. That's just made my day.
I've. Got I've got shivered this USA
now That's that's that's lovely. And you know, it's important to
reflect that as well, right? Because I think sometimes, like,
you know, we are here to talk about what's going on and the
reality is quite bad often and the shit is bad.
But there's loads of examples of that going around.
You know, there's loads of examples of men supporting other
men. Like we did a session yesterday
called the dad clinic and dad's come along and they asked
questions and a couple of dads there had children with autism
and ADHD. And it's incredible to see the
men interacting with each other and be like, oh, I'm in the same
situation. Have you tried this or what
about that or talk Just are opening up the conversation as I
think it's really important to reflect that men are doing it.
There are spaces, there are individuals, there are
friendship groups, they're actually having healthy
conversations too. I think sometimes we don't
amplify them, we don't platform them.
It doesn't make the news because it's not going to get loads of
clicks, but it is there and we need to amplify that too.
Yeah, I think that you're, you know, that like you said,
there's a certain narrative in, in the media that that we take,
you know, we can often take as almost all men.
And, and we sort of, you know, we sort of believe that men
don't talk and they can't talk and they, they're emotionally
illiterate and, you know, they don't have emotions.
But actually I think, you know, you're so right that you'll find
that a lot of men do want to talk, can talk.
They've often just never been shown how to or what that space
might look like. And, you know, they're bringing
in their competitive baggage and their performative baggage.
But actually, when that strips away, you'll, you'll find that
men, men do want to bond and can bond and are there for each
other. And, you know, I've seen it in
my own friendship group. I think as I started to open up
about what I was going through, you know, lo and behold, all I
meant all my friends had stuff going on that they wanted to
talk about. They didn't feel they could
before. Actually, you know, we, we've
created now my, my friendship group.
We're, we're really comfortable talking about this stuff with
each other. And, you know, we still get
together and do the banter and the drinking and all the rest of
it, you know, talk about sport, whatever it might be.
But actually we've got a really nice place where when someone's
struggling, they will message and say, lads, I could really do
just meeting up and chatting about this thing And, and we do
that. And I think, you know, just that
feels so powerful to me. We, but we've had to, we've had
to get ourselves to that place. That didn't just happen.
We had to kind of create the environment where where that is
is now. You know, I was going to say
acceptable. It's always been acceptable, but
where it was where people felt comfortable with it.
Yeah, yeah. I love that.
Sometimes it takes one person in a group to crack it, and then.
Yeah. And what do you hope teenage
boys will take from reading your book?
I think I just want them to realise how normal, whatever it
is they're carrying is, whatever stuff they've got going on,
it's, it's normal, it's OK. It might, you know, it might be
difficult, might be challenging. This, this stuff is stuff is
challenging. We're talking about, you know,
being human, humanity. It's, it's, it's not, it's not
easy. But yeah, I just want them to
realize that wherever they're at that that is OK.
And, and whatever The thing is they're carrying, that is also
OK. I think in particular when
you're a young boy, some of the stuff we, we talked about, you
know, reptile dysfunction or hair loss or body image,
whatever it might be, it's such a massive thing to carry at that
age. It's, it's all consuming and you
feel like you're the only one in the world going through it.
You know, I was, I was a really skinny boy.
I went to a boy school, really skinny boy.
I did not fit the typical masculine mould.
And that, you know, I, I held all of that internally and I
told myself I was wrong for it. I wasn't, I wasn't a good enough
boy. I wasn't boy enough.
That's just, that's just way too much emotional pressure to be
carrying at that age. So I think I just want people to
see themselves in the book and realize, oh, OK, this, this
thing is normal. There aren't, you know,
everyone's different. There are different paths I can
take and not to shame themselves for it.
I think that that's often, you know, boys and men often can get
into a place of shaming themselves, berating themselves
of not feeling good enough. I think that's, that's quite a
core masculine wound. Someone described it to me as
of, of not feeling good enough. And so men try to over index on
stuff to feel good enough. They try to appear more manly
to, to feel like they're good enough for themselves and good
enough for others. And yeah, I just want people to
read the book and realize they are already good enough, you
know? I'm going to end with the
question that can feel quite tried, but I think it's
important. What's the one thing you wish
someone had told you when you were a boy?
There's more one more than one way to be a boy.
There's more than one way there's not.
Yeah, you know, these phrase man up, boy up even it's they're
they're just, they're just meaningless.
And I think that, you know, I, I can see why I ended up in the
place where I was really struggling with my mental
health. And having worked on this
extensively through through therapy, I can see why I got
myself that place because actually the this sort of seeds
for that had been sown earlier when I was a boy where, you
know, as I said, I didn't feel like I was fitting in.
I went to school, boys school and I was skinny.
I liked doing my homework. I didn't like football.
I was scared of girls. I was shy, you know, I was, if
you were to take the the sort of masculine code, I was not that
basically. And I just gave myself so much
pressure for that, so much shame, told myself I wasn't good
enough, felt like I was a failure to my parents, which
obviously is just horrible. I just carried so much, you
know, and then that, that that sort of turned into what it did
later in life. So I just wish that, you know,
I'd known I was doing OK. And we're all unique.
That's what makes us human. And that's the same with with
being boys. And, you know, I've, I've
learned that now. I've had to go through some
stuff to, to learn that. But that's ultimately what I
wanted the book to be, for people to realize that whoever
they are, that's that's OK. That's amazing.
Thank you, George. Thank you.
Yeah, really, really great. And you can buy Be a Man about
it, building a healthier idea of masculinity by in all good book
shops, can't you, Elliot? You can, I mean Smith, Yeah.
Waterstones and. Where?
Where else can people find each other?
I'm mainly on LinkedIn. Please connect.
Please drop me a DM message. Yeah, I'm not.
Yeah, LinkedIn, Instagram, but yeah, mainly LinkedIn.
Amazing. Thank you so much for having me.
Thank you. George.