1 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:06,320 Welcome back. To the to be a. 2 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:07,880 Boy podcast with me, Elliot Raine. 3 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:11,160 And me, Julie Brilly. And today we're in the. 4 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:14,760 Studio. We've got, I mean, I wish I had 5 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:17,560 one of these in my house. Yeah, this, this, this. 6 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:20,280 Chair is so comfortable I don't. Ever want to leave? 7 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:23,920 I know I'm moving in. Where's your Christmas jumper? 8 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:26,600 Oh, it's at home, to be fair. I've got one. 9 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:28,200 I've had it from Next for three years. 10 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:29,720 It's lovely. It's got a big. 11 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:32,840 Santa Claus at the front. Some lights. 12 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:34,280 It's fantastic. Best for? 13 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:36,720 Christmas Day and. I tell you I have Christmas 14 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:38,040 jumper, I have Christmas knickers. 15 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:40,680 We'll get you one. We're going to buy a Christmas 16 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:41,600 jumper. OK. 17 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:45,200 There we go, Christmas pres. I'm the worst at Christmas 18 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:45,920 presents. As you know. 19 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:50,680 Thank you for my angels though. Oh, you are very welcome. 20 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:53,720 But yeah, little little black. Angels, they were lovely and my 21 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:54,840 2. Year old had a meltdown. 22 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:57,600 Because she wanted 3 so. You very kindly brought us. 23 00:00:57,600 --> 00:00:59,880 Two, but for some. Reason she was like. 24 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:05,280 I want 3. Complete irrational braid. 25 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:06,560 Yeah. And it's never enough. 26 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:09,560 Is it Never enough? It's like this is enough. 27 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:11,960 OK. But we're coming to the air 28 00:01:11,960 --> 00:01:12,640 year. End. 29 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:15,000 It's been a. Year to be a boy. 30 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:18,920 Nearly a year, but. 2025 our first year, how you feeling? 31 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:22,800 About this milestone. It's been a joy. 32 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:26,360 I have enjoyed every second doing this podcast. 33 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:28,640 Every second. I think we, well, not every 34 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:34,040 second, I'll be honest. There've been the moments we, I 35 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:36,640 think when we started it, we just thought, Oh well, this is a 36 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:40,160 topic we're both really interested in, let's give it a 37 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:43,200 go, see what happens. I don't think for either of us, 38 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:45,000 it was about getting lots of people to listen. 39 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:49,760 I was just cute, really curious about what guests would say and 40 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:52,320 actually people are loving it. People. 41 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:54,720 Yeah, I go out all the. Time and people they. 42 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:58,280 Talk about the podcast and. In a very moving way as well, 43 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:00,760 you know, in a way. That it's, it's personal to them 44 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:04,200 and it helps them and it's yes. It's amazing that people 45 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:06,920 actually listen. And we've learned so much, 46 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:08,400 right? I feel like I've learned. 47 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:11,440 I feel like I've been had an epiphany almost once a week 48 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:13,520 during this podcast. There's something that's 49 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:17,360 somebody said where a light bulb has gone off. 50 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:19,880 And I've thought, wow, yeah, I'd never thought of it like that. 51 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:26,440 So what privilege to be able to hang out with a lovely podcast 52 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:29,600 team and learn something new. Brains of clever people. 53 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:31,720 So, So what? Some of your highlights give. 54 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:36,000 Me give me one of your to be a boy. 2025 Highlights. 55 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:39,000 Well, we start off with Ruth the Whitman. 56 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:42,680 The Whitman, That's what I'm going to call her from that. 57 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:48,560 I loved Ruth Whitman and she had written a book all about raising 58 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:50,480 boys because she's got three boys herself. 59 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:55,880 And I read that book before interviewing her and was 60 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:58,960 absolutely blown away by it. I mean, what a book. 61 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:04,240 And the podcast, she just really opened my eyes to many of the 62 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:08,120 challenges that boys are experiencing to that, to the 63 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:12,160 fact that as a feminist raising two boys, there's this tug of 64 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:16,240 war internally sometimes between previously held beliefs and 65 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:20,280 seeing what your boys go through and wanting to protect them as 66 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:25,000 much as possible while also feeling very strongly that you 67 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:32,000 want to raise a good man because we as women have experienced not 68 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:36,400 good men in our lives. Yeah, I I love that episode. 69 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:38,040 Yeah, Ruth. Ruth was. 70 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:39,600 Really, really good. I think it was a really good way 71 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:44,240 of starting because I think it's just the framing she gave the 72 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:47,080 issues was perfect. It was a perfect entry point 73 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:48,440 and. You know, there's been so. 74 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:51,520 Much. There's been so much negativity 75 00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:54,920 around boys. The conversation has been 76 00:03:55,720 --> 00:03:57,760 difficult over the years. I think a lot of people have 77 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:00,400 been scared to have conversations about boys. 78 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:03,000 And so I think getting. Roof on at the beginning to say 79 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:07,680 look, this is a podcast that recognizes that some. 80 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:09,120 People do harm. Right. 81 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:11,360 And some boys do harm, girls do harm. 82 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:15,040 That that is, that is. True, but we're not looking at 83 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:16,640 from a. Perspective of boys or bad 84 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:19,079 people. We're looking at this as they 85 00:04:19,079 --> 00:04:24,200 are young people who need to be loved and nurtured and guided. 86 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:28,320 And in all of our hearts there is, there is goodness and the 87 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:31,720 world's a complex place. And as parents, as teachers, as 88 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:35,440 mentors, as people who just care, how can we raise the next 89 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:39,840 generation of boys to do good things and be good partners and 90 00:04:39,840 --> 00:04:42,840 get the good dads and good colleagues and good friends? 91 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:45,080 You know, so it was, it was great, great, great framing. 92 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:53,520 So all this nature nurture stuff is really interesting. 93 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:58,120 And it's also, it's kind of quite fraught because you know, 94 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:02,160 sometimes when you sort of talk about how much is innate and how 95 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:04,680 much is socialized, it can feel like you're making some kind of 96 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:07,400 political statement. And so I went into that research 97 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:09,280 with a lot of trepidation. And, you know, there's this 98 00:05:09,280 --> 00:05:11,160 whole story about boys will be boys. 99 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:14,760 When you hear that, you kind of imagine that boys are like sort 100 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:18,480 of innately aggressive or destructive or really sturdy and 101 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:20,520 tough and, you know, not very vulnerable. 102 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:24,120 But what I found when I looked at the research was actually 103 00:05:24,120 --> 00:05:27,480 almost the complete opposite, that a baby boy is actually more 104 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:31,040 emotionally sensitive and fragile and vulnerable than a 105 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:34,240 baby girl at birth. And the reason for that is that 106 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:37,400 the right hemisphere of the brain, which is the part, you 107 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:39,760 know, it's very easy to oversimplify, but broadly 108 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:42,960 speaking, the right part of the brain is the part that deals 109 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:45,720 with emotions, emotional self regulation. 110 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:48,800 So like calming down if you're upset and forming attachments 111 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:50,840 and relationships. So it's like your emotional 112 00:05:50,840 --> 00:05:54,720 center in a baby boy that's about a month to six weeks 113 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:57,440 behind a baby girl in development at birth. 114 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:00,520 And if you know newborns, you know that a month to six weeks 115 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:03,560 is really quite a lot like if you think about premature babies 116 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:05,840 or whatever. And so when a boy is born, he's 117 00:06:05,840 --> 00:06:10,040 like a little bit more, you know, the boys tend to cry more 118 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:11,600 often. They find it harder to calm 119 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:14,600 down. They're more kind of upset by 120 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:18,280 traumatic or difficult events. So if they're separated from 121 00:06:18,280 --> 00:06:21,560 their caregiver or if something goes wrong, you can see that a 122 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:23,560 baby boy takes slightly longer to calm down. 123 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:26,760 Obviously, we're talking about averages here, group averages. 124 00:06:26,840 --> 00:06:29,800 Every individual is different, but the baby girl is slightly 125 00:06:30,280 --> 00:06:32,520 generally slightly more independent, slightly more 126 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:36,040 resilient. So you can see that in the data 127 00:06:36,280 --> 00:06:39,640 that pretty much every bad thing that can happen to a baby. 128 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:44,000 So whether that's like abuse or neglect or poverty or post nasal 129 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:48,000 depression from the mom, all of these things have a bigger 130 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:49,960 impact on boys than they do on girls. 131 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:52,920 And you can see data on that that carries all the way through 132 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:54,720 life. You know that boys are more 133 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:57,640 vulnerable to disruption and that kind of brain 134 00:06:57,640 --> 00:06:59,960 vulnerability, you know, it's brain immaturity and brain 135 00:06:59,960 --> 00:07:03,480 vulnerability carries on throughout childhood. 136 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:05,760 Boys brains just develop more slowly. 137 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:09,120 I just wanted to clarify on one of the points that you said, 138 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:12,480 because I can imagine some boys or men that might be listening 139 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:16,200 will be thinking, hold on, our brains are not behind girls. 140 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:18,400 But it's not about intelligence, is it? 141 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:19,960 It's about. Order. 142 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:21,920 It's not about intelligence at all. 143 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:25,440 So like cognitive skills. And this is I think why this 144 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:27,600 issue becomes really controversial because people get 145 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:31,320 hung up on these like who can read maps and who can do maths 146 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:33,960 and who can do, you know, breathing and everything. 147 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:36,880 Actually cognitively in terms of like intelligence, boys and 148 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:40,240 girls bones are really similar. They have very similar Iqs and 149 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:43,560 it's the emotional development, the sort of emotional and 150 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:46,640 attachment development that's the bit that is a little bit 151 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:49,480 behind and the parts that deal with that self regulation. 152 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:52,560 So calm me down. Impulse control, that sort of 153 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:54,440 thing. It's those things which are 154 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:58,720 different. For me, one of the episodes that 155 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:00,960 stood out was. Lenore skin Lazy. 156 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:07,280 I mean, she was also an absolute badass, wasn't she? 157 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:10,440 You won't mess with her. But she really did change the 158 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:15,400 way both of his parents because she made us realize that being 159 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:18,840 afraid of what would happen to our kids in the outside world 160 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:23,960 was causing more damage to them than just letting them roam. 161 00:08:23,960 --> 00:08:26,120 Let them roam, baby. Let those kids roam. 162 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:27,720 Seriously. Lenore has saved me time. 163 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:32,080 On the school run, because now I park at the top of the hill, the 164 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:36,440 daughter gets out. And I drive off before I was. 165 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:40,559 Staying to watch her walk. Into the school gates now I 166 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:42,799 don't. Now I go and drop the youngest 167 00:08:42,799 --> 00:08:44,880 to nursery and I. Trust that she can make her way 168 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:46,680 into the school. Gates and that saves me. 169 00:08:46,680 --> 00:08:48,440 Time because I can get. To the nursery quicker. 170 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:50,960 And get home. And so thank you. 171 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:53,480 Don't know you have. Saved me 510. 172 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:55,400 Minutes on the school run. And given me more time to have 173 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:58,520 my eggs and toast for breakfast. Yeah, and there's something 174 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:01,680 about giving kids independence, isn't that that's so good for 175 00:09:01,680 --> 00:09:05,760 them and so good for you. That, that my, my eldest, now 176 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:09,400 he's at secondary school, I, I barely do anything for him. 177 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:13,840 I, he has to make sure his PE kit is sorted and ready in the 178 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:15,840 morning. He has to make sure he's forms 179 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:20,960 out ready to go and if he doesn't have it ready then he's 180 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:23,000 just late for school and I just let him be late for school. 181 00:09:23,000 --> 00:09:25,400 I don't step in. I'm just like well if you 182 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:27,520 haven't sorted it. You're raising a fully grown 183 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:28,800 adult. I'm right. 184 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:33,040 Well, no, I won't go that far, but but I have learned to really 185 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:37,000 step back and that that is good for him and it's good for me and 186 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:39,360 that kids learn from their mistakes. 187 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:43,320 That that episode was literally. Life changing for me, you know, 188 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:46,960 in terms of the freedom we give our eldest thou. 189 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:50,800 How we think about her. Handling difficult situations in 190 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:54,040 our life with our. Friends, you know when we go to 191 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:56,880 a shop or if we're in a restaurant. 192 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:57,960 I'm not. Ordering for you. 193 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:01,080 You know if we go to a. Shop you can pay, you've got a 194 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:03,760 little rooster card you can pay by yourself. 195 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:05,040 It's my money on the card, right? 196 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:07,080 But you. Can go and pay for yourself like 197 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:09,160 you can. Navigate the world without me 198 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:11,600 having to be there. And I think in a world now where 199 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:13,760 we have so much convenience. We've got so many things you can 200 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:15,440 do online. You can live a. 201 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:18,280 Full whole life without ever leaving your house or 202 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:21,240 interacting with a human being. Let our kids be out. 203 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:24,200 In the wild, I think it's a really important thing to do. 204 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:33,920 I think the big lie of our era is that we must know everything 205 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:36,120 our kids are doing. We must supervise them all the 206 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:37,680 time. Otherwise they are in grave 207 00:10:37,680 --> 00:10:40,040 danger. And really the only people who 208 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:43,680 can help them any step along the way is their parent, who they 209 00:10:43,680 --> 00:10:46,760 can then reach by a phone or smoke signal or whatever. 210 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:51,240 And it's so belied by all of history, by all of our own 211 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:54,160 history. At 15, you were not tethered to 212 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:55,560 your mom. You didn't have a phone when you 213 00:10:55,560 --> 00:10:58,200 were 15, your mom didn't know where you were every single 214 00:10:58,200 --> 00:10:59,720 second. You wanted to have adventures. 215 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:01,560 Sometimes you had did stupid things. 216 00:11:01,560 --> 00:11:04,280 Sometimes you found yourself taking a little risk that you 217 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:07,760 thought was dumb in retrospect. Sometimes you had to even 218 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:10,880 obfuscate when your parents asked what you were doing or 219 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:13,120 where you were. And maybe that felt a little 220 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:15,520 bad, or maybe it felt a little good that you could handle 221 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:19,320 yourself, right. The idea that the only person 222 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:24,160 who can keep you safe and make you capable isn't you is very 223 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:27,680 debilitating. Yeah, why do you think so many 224 00:11:27,680 --> 00:11:29,960 parents are terrified of letting go? 225 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:32,800 First of all, when when I was growing up, it was so long ago, 226 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:35,320 there wasn't as much media. There certainly wasn't an 227 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:36,840 Internet. There was barely cable 228 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:40,240 television when all of these things came along with more 229 00:11:40,240 --> 00:11:44,160 space to fill and a more desperate grab for eyeballs. 230 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:47,480 Because it wasn't three stations or five stations or 100 231 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:49,520 stations. It's everyone in the world now 232 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:52,440 is trying to get your attention. The easiest way to get the 233 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:54,920 attention of anybody say child in danger. 234 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:58,560 And and even better than that is mom puts child in danger. 235 00:11:58,560 --> 00:12:00,800 There's nothing more delicious to chew on than that. 236 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:03,800 We're chewing on it now. So the media is partly to blame, 237 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:07,720 but I think the overarching big kahuna is the big lie that we 238 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:11,080 were just discussing before, which is the idea that if you do 239 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:14,240 everything right and if you never take your eye off your kid 240 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:17,000 either physically or electronically, then you can 241 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:20,960 control everything they do. See, eat, hear, try, watch, 242 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:23,440 lick, whatever. And then they will be safe. 243 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:27,440 And, and that leaves the parents extremely anxious because it's 244 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:30,520 all in them and extremely bored because now I have to play all 245 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:32,560 the games with them and I have to make sure they understand the 246 00:12:32,560 --> 00:12:34,520 vocabulary, their words, and I have to let them win, but not so 247 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:35,920 much that they don't understand what losing is. 248 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:38,080 Boring, boring, boring. And then the kid is bored 249 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:41,080 because instead of exploring something or climbing a tree or, 250 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:45,120 you know, falling or meeting a frog or doing anything, it's 251 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:47,120 like, oh, honey, I'll pick up the frog for you. 252 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:48,400 Let's see. What should we call it? 253 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:50,240 Should we call it Christopher? Christopher sounds like it could 254 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:52,360 start with AK, but actually it starts with chapter. 255 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:55,480 That's a blend. You know, it's so it's so over 256 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:59,800 the top for what we expect of parents and so underdeveloped 257 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:02,560 for what we expect of kids. We think they wouldn't possibly 258 00:13:02,560 --> 00:13:05,960 be interested in anything unless we point things outlook at the 259 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:08,200 chlorophyll is why the leaves are changing color. 260 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:12,400 It's like, give me a break. Kids are created to be curious 261 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:16,000 and competent and to explore. And it's like the kids are in 262 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:18,760 the passenger seat and the parents are the drivers. 263 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:20,760 And you know that when you're the passenger, you don't learn 264 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:22,560 anything. You don't know where you are, 265 00:13:22,560 --> 00:13:23,600 you don't know what your route is. 266 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:26,600 So we keep putting kids in the passenger seat of their lives 267 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:29,440 because it's safer. And then wondering why are they 268 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:31,400 so depressed? Why are they so anxious? 269 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:33,080 And I would say, why are they so passive? 270 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:35,280 And I think you're passive when you're passenger. 271 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:38,760 And can we just talk about John Amici? 272 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:47,320 Because I knew I have read a lot of John's work, listened to him 273 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:52,720 speak on multiple occasions, but still, that episode, I had to 274 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:56,200 sit in the dark room for about an hour afterwards just to 275 00:13:56,200 --> 00:14:00,960 digest everything he said because it was so powerful. 276 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:05,240 Him talking in particular about the fact that people see him as 277 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:10,240 a monster because he's a tall, big black man and he knows he 278 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:13,640 sees it in people's faces when he's out, that they perceive him 279 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:16,240 as a monster and the impact that that has on him. 280 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:20,960 That was personal for me, very personal because. 281 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:24,920 I remember this story, so I. Was lucky enough to get awarded 282 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:29,400 by UN Women UK and me and Snenny. 283 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:36,120 We went to the the award show in Mayfair and got called up, gave 284 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:39,200 a speech, got this certificate and it was, it was, it was 285 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:42,360 amazing. And then on the train. 286 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:46,240 On the way home, I was sitting down on the train. 287 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:49,520 I think Snenny was opposite me. The train was. 288 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:53,400 Packed like people are. Standing up on the train. 289 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:55,160 And it's summertime. It's hot. 290 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:58,200 There was 1. Seat available on that train 291 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:00,440 next to me and no one wanted to sit down. 292 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:03,000 And I thought about it and thought. 293 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:07,480 This has been happening. For black men, forever. 294 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:11,840 But for that particular moment, why it was so, why it hit home 295 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:13,960 so much, is because I'd. Just been in an environment 296 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:16,200 where I was being celebrated while I was getting an award, 297 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:18,800 while I was talking in front of hundreds of people, where my 298 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:21,280 work was being recognized and it was amazing. 299 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:23,320 And there were people from all walks of life in the audience 300 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:27,080 and to get on the train and to. Everyone else. 301 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:29,640 He's just a black guy. Who? 302 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:33,080 They're kind of scared of who they're suspicious of who 303 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:35,240 they're not quite sure how to interact around. 304 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:37,000 And it just goes to show right Is that? 305 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:40,440 You know, John was saying. He's. 306 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:45,080 Revered. John is revered, celebrated when 307 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:47,760 people know who he is. But when people don't know who 308 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:50,960 he is, he's a monster. He literally used the words 309 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:53,360 monster. And that story about him leaving 310 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:54,920 his house? And then walking around the 311 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:56,360 corner and the. Couple. 312 00:15:57,320 --> 00:15:58,720 Kind of throwing like coffee. Because they were. 313 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:01,400 Like oh and drop the. Coffee on the floor because I 314 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:03,840 was so, so astounded to see. Him and what it does to your 315 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:05,720 psychology. When you're walking around the 316 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:08,680 place and people are literally wary and scared of you and 317 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:11,440 suspicious of you, and what does that do to your psyche? 318 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:14,120 And what? Does that do to how you move? 319 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:15,360 Around the world. And I think there's been a. 320 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:19,200 Lot of research around how racism kind of manifests in in 321 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:20,760 your body, you know, and I think. 322 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:22,960 When he when he was talking about that. 323 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:27,880 It was, it was, it was deep. Can't lie, that was a deep one. 324 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:31,680 He said he didn't leave the house because very much at all 325 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:37,000 because on screen you can't see his stature, you can't see his 326 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:41,720 size. So he feels that he's the people 327 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:44,960 respond to him very differently than in real life, don't they? 328 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:49,240 And there was, he was talking about when he was, because he's 329 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:53,560 a university professor and he was, he was lecturing the 330 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:57,920 students and he was lecturing them in psychology and in body 331 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:01,120 language. And then he was demonstrating to 332 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:03,400 them. He'd get pulled students up and 333 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:05,960 he'd stand closely to them and watch them bristle. 334 00:17:06,599 --> 00:17:11,520 And yeah, it was one of the deepest episodes I think we've 335 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:12,520 done. It was and it was. 336 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:16,359 So unexpected as well because. I don't think that was in the 337 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:20,119 questions that we had, right. So it wasn't, it wasn't a part 338 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:22,760 of the plan. To have that conversation, but 339 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:24,440 you know, we make people feel so comfortable. 340 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:26,240 They just pour their heart. Out. 341 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:29,400 We're just so, you know, so warm and friendly. 342 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:37,720 And friendly it is. I don't leave my house very much 343 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:40,360 unless I have to because the experience. 344 00:17:40,360 --> 00:17:44,800 Goes to Grace. Apart from that, the experience 345 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:47,280 of being in public with other people is painful. 346 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:54,080 It's really painful because you, although it this will feel 347 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:59,240 fragile to lots of people, we are impacted by how we see other 348 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:03,200 people see us. And I know when I leave my house 349 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:06,760 that I'm a monster. And I know this because of how 350 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:09,480 other people react to me. And they react to me like I'm a 351 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:12,760 monster. When I walk into a lift and they 352 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:15,440 are going to walk into a lift with me, they might take the 353 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:18,480 next lift. And I can't explain that unless 354 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:21,640 I'm a monster. When I walk into a space with 355 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:25,320 people and they take their belongings, their valuables and 356 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:29,400 hold them closer to themselves, I can't explain that unless they 357 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:32,000 see a monster when I round the corner. 358 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:35,280 This happened to me when I lived in my old house last year. 359 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:38,560 I rounded a corner and a couple were walking towards me with 360 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:45,320 coffees and they, they dropped their coffees and the, the, the 361 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:49,760 man actually of the two shrieked as I rounded the corner like a 362 00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:51,960 meter or two away from them. So it wasn't like I walked into 363 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:54,720 them. And the only way I can explain 364 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:57,440 this, and I've known this since I was 13, right? 365 00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:02,760 I know that I'm a monster and so I avoid interactions if I can 366 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:06,440 because it's harmful to my emotional well-being and I 367 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:09,360 curate them otherwise. So everything you're looking at 368 00:19:09,360 --> 00:19:13,840 right now is curated for the benefit of mostly white people, 369 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:18,880 but everybody to see me in a way that is useful for me and less 370 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:21,400 harmful the the blue around my head here. 371 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:26,000 This is 40 hours work here. It's light around my head and 372 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:28,240 dark around the edges. Makes me look lighter, which 373 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:32,120 makes me feel safer to people. I am massive, but you couldn't 374 00:19:32,120 --> 00:19:35,920 tell until I said so because there's so much space around me 375 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:41,200 that helps you to see me in context books, old school 376 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:44,280 science fiction, which I'm really into, right? 377 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:47,120 I bought that lightsaber. I bought these things because 378 00:19:47,120 --> 00:19:50,960 I'm really into them, but they make people feel safe because Oh 379 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:54,400 yeah, I remember Star Wars, the TARDIS, I, I remember Doctor 380 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:57,160 Who. And all of this is for the 381 00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:00,960 audience to see me in a way that is least corrosive for me and 382 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:03,960 most helpful for our interactions. 383 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:08,640 You know, I think. One of my favorite episodes. 384 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:12,800 Was beyond the quality. Shout out to Ben and Dan Do. 385 00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:16,760 You know, I love that episode because they are on the ground. 386 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:19,440 Talking with boys every day they are running workshops in 387 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:22,560 schools, they are. On the front line of. 388 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:27,280 This conversation and hearing their insights in regards to how 389 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:29,640 boys are feeling. I've sent that. 390 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:32,240 Episode to so many people. So many people are interested in 391 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:34,160 what's going on and how do I have conversation. 392 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:36,480 I sent them that episode because it was. 393 00:20:37,120 --> 00:20:38,800 So relatable. So down to. 394 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:41,000 Earth, so practical but also quite hopeful. 395 00:20:41,360 --> 00:20:45,720 And Ben said something when we asked him about what does 396 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:47,760 masculinity mean? What does it mean to be a good 397 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:48,640 man? Something like that. 398 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:51,720 And he said it's. Just like doing no harm. 399 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:54,680 Doing no harm. And that's, that's stuck with 400 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:56,520 me. You know, how do we raise boys 401 00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:58,280 to just do no harm? Not just other people, but to 402 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:00,960 themselves as well. And that was really powerful. 403 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:09,120 And if you can have those as like guiding lights, as like 404 00:21:09,120 --> 00:21:12,640 beacons for you of like where masculinity is positive and 405 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:15,720 where it's not positive, then I think maybe that leads to to 406 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:17,360 good outcomes. Because we know that the 407 00:21:17,360 --> 00:21:20,560 outcomes for guys themselves are like pretty poor in terms of 408 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:24,040 like mental health, in terms of men's violence against men, like 409 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:26,760 all of that, like drug and alcohol abuse, all of those 410 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:28,840 kinds of things. So I think if you start with a 411 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:31,880 masculinity that just doesn't cause any harm to you as an 412 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:33,800 individual, you're off to a good start. 413 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:36,920 And then once you add in my community around me and how do I 414 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:40,000 make sure I'm not harming anybody around me, I think you 415 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:43,040 probably arrive at a version of masculinity that exists within 416 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:46,280 community that's maybe quite inherently positive because it's 417 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:49,960 just doing good stuff for people around it and for itself, you 418 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:53,000 know? Steve bit. 419 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:56,680 Off Uncle Steve. Well, I mean, because we 420 00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:58,240 interviewed him late at night, didn't we? 421 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:02,720 And so we, it was about 10:00, it was like 10:00 at night for 422 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:04,520 us and it was early in the morning for him. 423 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:08,600 And so I was a bit sleepy and a bit, you know, I think I had my 424 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:10,760 pajamas on, on the certainly on the bottom half. 425 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:15,680 And I'd never really heard him speak before, but this lovely 426 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:21,640 man with this gentle voice had me captivated with every word 427 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:25,960 that came out of his mouth. He was so thoughtful and 428 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:28,440 insightful. Storytelling. 429 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:34,120 The guy was a master. A master, and we didn't expect 430 00:22:34,120 --> 00:22:35,080 that. Because obviously he's got the. 431 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:37,040 Best selling books, raising girls and raising boys. 432 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:39,080 So we knew he was a great writer. 433 00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:44,720 But I didn't expect him to be a completely captivating expert 434 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,160 storytelling communicator like anyone that's interested. 435 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:50,720 In how do I? Convey a message Listen to Steve 436 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:52,800 Binoff. I was blown away by by. 437 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:55,000 By what he was. Saying and. 438 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:57,720 One moment he, I can't remember the exact story, but he spoke 439 00:22:57,720 --> 00:22:59,880 about. Sitting down with a group of 440 00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:03,880 boys and talking to them and. About like asking them to put 441 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:07,440 their hand up if they'd had. A loving dad who cared for them. 442 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:11,840 Something like that and how? So few boys had. 443 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:16,120 In their mind, a dad that that loved them, you know, and I 444 00:23:16,120 --> 00:23:18,480 started talking about my dad and I was like, this is emotional 445 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:20,040 Steve. Man, I just I wasn't ready to 446 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,120 cry. I was not ready to cry that 447 00:23:22,120 --> 00:23:29,240 evening. Yeah, well, this is the bigger 448 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:32,080 question of why are men so messed up? 449 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:39,320 And and the the which was really the mission of my life was, you 450 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:43,640 know, I was I was only about 27 young family therapists when I 451 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:46,160 just like, why are the men so messed up? 452 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:51,880 You know, the women are doing pretty well, you know, and what 453 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:57,000 it is, is, is that this thing we uncovered in the 20th century 454 00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:58,920 that that it's called the father wound. 455 00:24:00,120 --> 00:24:04,200 And if I sometimes I will have 100 men and you and similar to 456 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:06,480 what the work you do, I think, Elliot, you get 100 men in the 457 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:11,600 room and they're there to to learn to about fatherhood. 458 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:17,000 And, and I put the question to the man when they've settled in 459 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:19,320 and they're kind of just starting to lower their their 460 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:21,600 defenses a little bit. I say you're here because you 461 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:25,320 want to be a good dad. How do you get along with your 462 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:28,040 own dad? And it's like, it's like I've 463 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:33,160 got a hand grenade out of my briefcase, lobbed it into the 464 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:36,080 room. The reaction, you know, how do I 465 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:38,600 get on with my own dad? The some of the men look like, 466 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:41,680 like Thunder and, and they kind of spit it out. 467 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:45,040 I, I don't, you know, I, I don't get along with my own dad. 468 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:49,040 I don't waste my time. And if you have a show of hands 469 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:52,760 and I'd be, you know, just get people listening to predict 470 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:55,440 what'll happen here, what the numbers will be. 471 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:59,760 Out of 100 men who's estranged from their father, how many men 472 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:04,880 never speak to him? 30% of the men, almost a third 473 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:08,720 of the men estranged from their own dads. 474 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:12,800 Shocking figure. Another 30 out of 100 will say, 475 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:17,320 oh, yeah, well, I, I see him at birthdays and Easter and things. 476 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:21,320 And you know, but it's always a bit prickly, you know, he's 477 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:23,160 always having a go at you or something. 478 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:24,600 And so that they've got a relationship. 479 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:26,640 But it's cactus. And what have we got left? 480 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,880 We've got another 30% who are dutiful. 481 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:33,440 So they, you know, they did, they show up, they discuss the 482 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:37,120 football, can't wait to get away, visit the nursing home 483 00:25:37,120 --> 00:25:40,240 once a month. You know, that kind of, it's 484 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:42,680 better than nothing. If I was in a nursing home, that 485 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:46,560 would be better than nothing. But if you're doing your maths 486 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:50,880 now we've got, we're just, we've got 10% of men left and these 487 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:53,320 guys always wait till the last before they speak. 488 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:57,640 And then they say, well, you know, I understand what the 489 00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:01,600 other guys are saying. But in fact, my, my old man is 490 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:04,000 amazing. He's a fantastic dad. 491 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,480 I and they have tears in their eyes when they, when they say 492 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:10,640 it. You know, I, I couldn't design A 493 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:16,440 better dad than my dad is. And, and if I have problems or 494 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:19,240 worries, I, I would always, you know, go and talk to my dad. 495 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:23,960 And it's not that we always agree, but it's that he's, he's 496 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:29,840 on my side. And, and, and so, but that big, 497 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:33,440 if we go back to the big picture that we've got, 90 out of 100 498 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:36,480 men have a father wound and they're not close to him. 499 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:40,360 And so their own fathering lacks that kind of sense of steady 500 00:26:40,360 --> 00:26:45,680 confidence to to both to hold their child and as you asked 501 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:49,800 Elliot to let go of their child and trust, trust that he'll be 502 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:52,040 back. He he won't love you less. 503 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:54,640 We. Need to talk about Josh? 504 00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:56,200 We definitely need to talk about Josh. 505 00:26:56,200 --> 00:27:00,560 Josh messaged me on LinkedIn, DM Ed me on LinkedIn and said 506 00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:03,880 hello. I'm a 14 year old boy and I'm 507 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:10,720 writing a book on the, I can't remember how he phrased it, but 508 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:13,080 basically on masculinity influences and the damage that 509 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,360 they're doing to teenage kids. So I immediately wrote back to 510 00:27:16,360 --> 00:27:17,880 him, thinking, well this is clearly. 511 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:21,880 Not a real human. And then we arranged to have a 512 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:25,840 call, which we did. I mean, he was so insightful. 513 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:30,000 I think he's probably been one of the most talked about 514 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:31,600 episodes. And he's since gone on, hasn't 515 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:36,200 he, to do loads of TV programs. People are loving him, but we 516 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:38,360 got him first. Yeah, props to us. 517 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:39,840 Like an actual. Genius. 518 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:41,480 Like I was listening to the guy I think in I think. 519 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:42,920 You're like a literal genius like. 520 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:45,000 You're using. Words I don't understand. 521 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:46,800 Yeah. Just lock that up, Josh. 522 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:49,840 Just give us a minute. You're speaking in a way. 523 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,480 That most adults can't articulate. 524 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:54,280 Themselves in the way that you're unpacking these. 525 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:56,920 Massive issues. Like, yeah, he's. 526 00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,760 Going to go. On to 100% run the world I have 527 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:01,560 no. Doubt about that. 528 00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:08,920 Obviously that's misogyny and you know, there's attitudes 529 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:11,800 towards women, but I think the most immoral part about the 530 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,920 monosphere and the red pill culture is these intrinsic 531 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:19,040 values of young men and you know, their most valuable assets 532 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:21,800 being completely manipulated. But going back to the schools 533 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:26,760 thing, because of the appeal and the appeal of the influences to 534 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:34,600 these values, then trying to strip away the content with the 535 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:38,560 idea of this is wrong and trying to going in with that because 536 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:40,560 that that's what adolescence really is, right? 537 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:43,040 This is wrong because it led to the murder of the scum, right? 538 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:44,480 These influencers are bad. They're wrong. 539 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,120 See, you see, you're putting that in front of them and you're 540 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:51,200 thinking, OK, well, because I had those feelings only there, 541 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:55,080 you're taking that away now. So that means so it's not seen 542 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:56,800 as you're taking away the content that's harming me, 543 00:28:57,360 --> 00:28:59,520 You're taking away the controller out of my life. 544 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,320 You're taking away the certainty, you're taking away my 545 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:04,760 ambition and. Not giving you anything else. 546 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:06,480 Exactly. It's about alternatives. 547 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:09,680 Logo that's gone. Yeah, it's about alternatives 548 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:14,680 and I think, you know, that's why there's a lot of positive 549 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:16,200 action going on around at the moment. 550 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:22,200 But there's definitely so much space for it to be propelled 551 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:24,840 forward and I think we need positive alternatives in 552 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:28,760 society. Well, we, I think we look 553 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:31,160 critically at the monosphere and think, OK, what are the good 554 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:32,920 parts of it? What are the good things this is 555 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:36,440 doing for young men? That is, you know, because at 556 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:38,440 the end of the day, putting all the bad things aside, the 557 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:40,840 monosphere is still getting young men to, you know, start 558 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:44,360 their own businesses and care about their fitness and, you 559 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:45,840 know, care about their appearance and things like that, 560 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,480 which are, you know, are good things where you just take those 561 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:50,800 good things and you put it into a healthy alternative without 562 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,960 all the harmful rhetoric. And then there you have a really 563 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:57,200 viable solution. But I think that's a role of, 564 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:00,520 you know, wider institutions such as governments to implement 565 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:03,320 that. I think unfortunately on a 566 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:06,440 personal, you know, community scale, I don't think you can 567 00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:10,840 really achieve that without wide scale government intervention. 568 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:13,200 And these government funding doesn't, I won't want the 569 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,720 government to try and do something like that because Can 570 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:19,160 you imagine? I mean you can't like the 571 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,600 government try and do anything interesting or cultural and it 572 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:24,560 always. Falls back mistake but. 573 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:27,800 They should be funding stuff like that in order to have a 574 00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:31,360 different area. Josh, thank you. 575 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:36,560 So, so insightful and honestly, you, I find you utterly 576 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:44,880 fascinating and you're so, so clever and so thoughtful and so 577 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:52,560 inspiring, you know, to 46 year old old back me and, you know, 578 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:56,200 to kids and I just, you know, I'm so excited about this book 579 00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:58,440 coming out and I really. Hope you get lots of. 580 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,520 Platforms to be able to talk about your thoughts on this 581 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:07,920 because it's really important. Probably my favorite episode us. 582 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:10,520 Is that bad to say? Yeah. 583 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:12,080 This is, I mean, I love the sound of my voice. 584 00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:14,400 This is not very British. It's not very British, is it? 585 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:16,600 Celebrate yourself. Can I Can I hop back to my 586 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:17,640 Caribbean? Roots here. 587 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,120 Can I just say the best thing that's happened on this podcast 588 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:24,800 is me? And you but now my favorite 589 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:29,080 episode, I think one of them was our breakdown of is it 590 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:30,120 embarrassing to have a boyfriend? 591 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:33,480 I thought that was so funny. I like sometimes I just listen 592 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:35,560 back to my own jokes. But when I was talking about 593 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,240 Saneni not. Revealing me until a year. 594 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:41,880 After we got married. I just found that funny. 595 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:46,080 So that personally, I, I think that was one of our highlights. 596 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:49,960 But that article as well is completely exploded. 597 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:52,520 Everybody's talking about it. Yeah, I really enjoyed. 598 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:01,920 Shante Joseph, I think, is an amazing, amazing writer. 599 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:09,320 She has this knack of hitting on something very current and doing 600 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:13,760 it in a way that is so accessible and always fun. 601 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,240 She's a she, you know, she's just a fun human. 602 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:18,840 You can tell she's a fun human, but she makes everything really 603 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:20,880 accessible. And yet what she's talking 604 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:23,960 about? Has so many layers and is 605 00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:26,040 really. Complicated and nuanced. 606 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,200 And that's one of the reasons why I think this has really 607 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:33,840 taken off is because it's made people really reflect on lots of 608 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:37,040 different aspects of male and female heterosexual 609 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:40,640 relationships. And you know, we've been talking 610 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,920 for a long time about the fact that heterosexual relationships 611 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,720 don't always work for women. In the vast majority of cases, 612 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:52,920 women end up, they're unhappy, they're more unhappy in the 613 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:56,400 heterosexual relationship. They don't live as long in the 614 00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:00,040 heterosexual relationship, I heard Scott Galloway saying on 615 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:03,520 something this morning. That the research shows that. 616 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:11,280 When a widower's husband dies, she actually is happier after 617 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:14,360 he's died than she was when she was married to him. 618 00:33:15,080 --> 00:33:18,600 And then. So, you know, we have known for 619 00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:21,320 quite some time that relationships aren't necessarily 620 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,000 working for women the way that they are working for men. 621 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,960 And so the first thing I thought when reading this is. 622 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,240 I want. Women like you're kicking back 623 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:35,280 against the thing that lots of women of my generation have 624 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:39,040 pushed to one side and pretended isn't happening, and you're 625 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:42,200 saying enough now I'm not going to stand for this anymore. 626 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:44,520 I think there's more to it than that, but. 627 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,240 That that was the first. Thing I felt when reading it. 628 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,680 Yeah, so did did you feel, were you, were you celebrating the 629 00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:55,240 article? Were you celebrating the idea or 630 00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:59,840 did you also feel sad as well? I felt. 631 00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:06,600 Both of those things at the same time, I felt somewhat part of me 632 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:10,880 felt proud of women for not standing for this anymore. 633 00:34:11,679 --> 00:34:16,159 And then another part of me, you know, I'm raising boys as well, 634 00:34:16,159 --> 00:34:18,159 so I have a personal investment in this. 635 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:24,840 Another part of me felt deeply sad about the fact that we are 636 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:29,040 being driven further and further apart, men and women, and that 637 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:33,320 we seem to. Have got to a position. 638 00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:37,480 Where we are blaming each other for lots of our problems. 639 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:42,639 And I think that is also part of why this article exists, is 640 00:34:42,639 --> 00:34:45,679 because it's not just about the fact that relationships aren't 641 00:34:45,679 --> 00:34:48,080 working for women. It's about the fact that men and 642 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:51,480 women are getting really good at blaming each other and making 643 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:54,000 each other the enemy. And we're not each other's 644 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:58,160 enemy. We need to find better ways to 645 00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:01,520 work together to find solutions to many of the problems that 646 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:08,240 we're experiencing. So I felt sad and but also part 647 00:35:08,240 --> 00:35:11,120 of me, I have to say felt. Gone. 648 00:35:14,240 --> 00:35:16,520 That, I mean, I've really enjoyed all of our episodes, 649 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:18,400 Elliot, I've enjoyed just doing this podcast. 650 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:23,840 Oh cheers matey. It's been so much fun and I'm 651 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:26,160 just so, I'm just so happy. I'm happy. 652 00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:27,240 I mean, you're, you know how much? 653 00:35:27,240 --> 00:35:29,240 Respect I have for you man, you're literally one of my role. 654 00:35:29,240 --> 00:35:30,840 Models. You are a legend. 655 00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:36,080 Before we were friends, I had a list of people who like, like 656 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:38,520 mentors without knowing their mentors. 657 00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:41,880 And there's a few people. There's a guy called Leon Mann 658 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:44,720 who runs Football Blacklist. There's Ian Wright. 659 00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:48,200 You know, Peter's Ian Wright. You need to get a podcast, Uncle 660 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:50,760 Ian, but you're on that. List, but now you're. 661 00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:52,000 In real life, but you're on that list. 662 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:55,840 You know, in terms of how you did pigment and screwed what you 663 00:35:55,840 --> 00:36:00,160 did, but how you did it as well. And so I really looked to you 664 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:04,280 for inspiration for like, this is how you conduct yourself in 665 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:06,560 public life and how you create a movement. 666 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:07,720 So you know when you asked me to do this? 667 00:36:07,720 --> 00:36:10,440 Podcast I was like. I've made it. 668 00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:13,560 Jodie's asked me to do a podcast. 669 00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:16,920 Mom, you've done a good job. Your boys made it. 670 00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:17,960 Oh. That's very kind. 671 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:20,400 I don't feel very inspiring. I just feel like a knackered old 672 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:23,160 mum at the moment. Bloody tired. 673 00:36:24,240 --> 00:36:26,200 Thank you everybody for tuning in. 674 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:29,520 We've we've had a blast. We hope you have too. 675 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:32,200 And we've got loads of exciting stuff coming up next year. 676 00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:34,040 We're not going to tell you now because that's spoiling. 677 00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:35,520 Including our Jodie episode where? 678 00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:38,160 Jodie's going to speak now why I like. 679 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:40,520 We're not going to tell you. We're just going to go straight 680 00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:42,600 into the episodes. I could probably do Geordie 681 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:43,880 Skauss in Scottish. We. 682 00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:45,400 We should. OK, we'll do all free tape. 683 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:46,840 Yeah, we're taking a little bit of a break. 684 00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:48,400 Can't. We So we'll be back in a. 685 00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:51,000 Couple of weeks back. Early jam. 686 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:53,200 Early jam. But Merry Christmas everyone, 687 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:55,280 happy New Year. See you in the year.