1 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:10,720 Mother Kind Podcast explores how to feel happier, more confident 2 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:15,000 and empowered in your motherhood, even in our world of 3 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:18,400 pressure judgement in comparison, I'm your host, Zoe 4 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:22,120 Blaski, and every week I speak to an incredible expert to share 5 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:26,000 actionable steps and powerful lessons to living your life as a 6 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:29,960 mother with more joy and unapologetic confidence. 7 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:33,400 Listen wherever you get your podcasts, just search Mother 8 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:46,240 Kind. We have a very special episode 9 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:51,760 for you today, our first Live to Be a Boy podcast recording live 10 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:53,520 from the Working Dads Summit last week. 11 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:57,280 The summit was hosted by my company, Parenting Out Loud, and 12 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:02,440 it was all about how we support dads to be loud and proud about 13 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:05,480 their care and responsibilities at work so they can be. 14 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:09,080 Equal parents at home. We heard from business leaders, 15 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:13,440 we heard from dads, we had real life men in the in in the 16 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:17,240 audience on stage talking and we had Stella Creasy and Baroness 17 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:18,800 Penn talking about parental leave reform. 18 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:22,560 It was a incredible day. The recordings will be available 19 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:25,040 soon. There's an article on the 20 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:27,280 Guardian which you can check out as well, which is incredible. 21 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:31,320 We spent a lot of time at the summit, of course, rightly so, 22 00:01:31,320 --> 00:01:35,680 talking about dads, talking about men and talking about the 23 00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:40,080 ups and downs of fatherhood, about dad's mental health, about 24 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:43,960 the impact on the well-being of dads when we are supported to 25 00:01:43,960 --> 00:01:48,000 spend time with our children and balance work with care. 26 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:52,040 But it was also really important that we use that opportunity to 27 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:53,480 talk about the motherhood penalty. 28 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:56,760 And of course, there's no one better to talk about the 29 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:59,920 motherhood penalty than our own Jodie Brady. 30 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:01,920 So for this live. Recording. 31 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:07,040 I interviewed Jodie and asked her a few tricky questions about 32 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:10,759 the state we are in right now when it comes to working dads, 33 00:02:10,759 --> 00:02:14,840 working mums, the intersection of our experiences and 34 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:19,280 ultimately why Supporting dads. The parent out loud has positive 35 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:22,920 benefits to the motherhood penalty and what that means for 36 00:02:22,920 --> 00:02:24,680 boys. So how does a motherhood penalty 37 00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:28,440 impact boys? Well, first and foremost, 38 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:31,960 finances. We already know that 31% of 39 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:36,520 children in the UK live in poverty and the motherhood 40 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:40,240 penalty makes that even worse. So we need to make sure we can 41 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:43,000 address the motherhood penalty to make sure households have the 42 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:48,240 finances they need to be able to focus on parenting their sons 43 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:49,760 and their boys and their children. 44 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:53,360 But it's not just the money, it's the stress. 45 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:57,360 Parenting, as you know, is really bloody hard and the 46 00:02:57,360 --> 00:02:59,400 motherhood penalty and the stress that creates in the 47 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:03,400 household impacts the well-being of both parents, which of course 48 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:09,720 impacts the way we parent our children and importantly, gender 49 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:11,760 roles. The motherhood penalty 50 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:16,440 reinforces those traditional gender roles of the dad as the 51 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:20,600 provider protector, mum as the homemaker and main caregiver. 52 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:24,680 Now if that's a choice that you make, that is fine, but if you 53 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:29,080 are forced into those roles, it can be quite damaging to the 54 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:31,680 family unit. And of course for the boys 55 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:35,160 growing up in their household, seeing their dad playing a 56 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:38,320 particular role, seeing their mum playing a particular role, 57 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:43,040 and that is shaping how they believe the workplace works, 58 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:45,880 parenting works, relationship works. 59 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:49,400 And that can have. A detrimental impact on them 60 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:53,360 growing up and being equal parents themselves and working 61 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:56,840 to redefine masculinity and working to adjust the motherhood 62 00:03:56,840 --> 00:04:00,160 penalty and create really inclusive workplace and 63 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:02,720 societies and communities. So this was. 64 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:07,200 An incredible conversation. It was our first live to be a 65 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:09,520 voice recording. Let's get into it. 66 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:19,920 Our next session is a special one. 67 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:22,480 This is very, very exciting. Ladies and gentlemen. 68 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:26,520 We have seen that parenting out loud can have a ripple effect 69 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:30,360 through the home, through workplaces, and importantly, 70 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:33,400 with the women that they parent with. 71 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:37,560 For far too long, the pen, the parenting penalty has 72 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:39,680 disproportionately affected mothers. 73 00:04:40,280 --> 00:04:43,040 But as we've seen from our panels and everyone here today, 74 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:47,720 when dads fully step in, when they parent out loud, that 75 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:51,920 discrepancy can be decreased and hopefully the parenting penalty 76 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:54,640 can be completely eliminated. Do we want to eliminate it? 77 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:57,560 Yes, I think we do. Exactly. 78 00:04:57,840 --> 00:05:00,200 Well, that's exactly what our next session is all about. 79 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:05,000 We have a special podcast recording of the To Be a Boy 80 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:07,560 podcast. This podcast have graced 81 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:09,680 billboards across Leicester Square. 82 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:14,480 It has reached #7 in the Spotify UK Podcast Charts and it's the 83 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:19,520 leading podcast in the UK for all things boys, masculinity and 84 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:23,400 modern parenthood. It is Co created and Co hosted 85 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:27,920 by our very own Elliot Ray and also by the formidable founder 86 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:32,440 of Pregnant Then Screwed and the new initiative Growth Spurt, 87 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:36,080 Jolie Braley. So please give a work in Doubt 88 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:38,920 summit. Welcome to Elliot and Jolie. 89 00:05:42,840 --> 00:05:50,120 We recognize we have the legend. Jolie Braley, please people ask 90 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:51,840 me or like, why did you start the podcast? 91 00:05:51,840 --> 00:05:54,560 And I say when Jodie really asks you to do something, you just 92 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:56,640 say, you know, your parents say to you like, would you jump off 93 00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:58,520 a Cliff if your friends did? And I'll be like, well, if Jodie 94 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:00,760 was going to the yeah, I'll jump off a Cliff. 95 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:03,560 Jodie, this is not like this is our first live podcast reporting 96 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:04,840 and our. First live podcast. 97 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:07,920 So you normally we would interview a guest. 98 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:09,880 Look at we had the episode dropping today actually. 99 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:11,560 Yeah, we're beyond equality. We did. 100 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:12,800 We were here. Are they here? 101 00:06:13,280 --> 00:06:18,680 Ben is here. We got Ben incredible episode 102 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:21,520 beyond equality, do incredible work supporting boys are going 103 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:23,360 to schools and it it's it's amazing. 104 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:24,560 So thank you again for being here. 105 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:27,040 Normally. We interview a guest, but today 106 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:29,080 we're going to mix it up. I'm going to interview. 107 00:06:29,280 --> 00:06:30,240 You. Yeah, that's going to be a bit 108 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:30,840 weird. It is. 109 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:36,040 Should do our intro welcome back to to be. 110 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:38,000 A boy podcast. With me, Elliot Ray. 111 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:43,120 And me, Jolie Brilly. And today we're mixing it up. 112 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:46,200 We're going to talk a little bit about the motherhood penalty. 113 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:48,160 We're coming live from the Working Dads Summit. 114 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:51,280 We've spoken a lot about the dads experience and that's all 115 00:06:51,280 --> 00:06:55,720 good, but we need to really make sure we make space and touch on 116 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:59,160 the motherhood penalty, what this means for working mums. 117 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:02,040 And I don't think there's anyone better in the UK to be speaking 118 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:05,160 about. So Jodie, first question, where 119 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:07,200 are we right now? What does the picture look like 120 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:10,960 for working mums in the UK when it comes to the motherhood 121 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:15,960 penalty, the barriers that exist in accessing the labour market 122 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:17,800 and. Accessing poor. 123 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:20,520 Good mental health and just being happy and healthy and 124 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:22,680 having good well-being. OK, I don't. 125 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:25,680 I mean, this is going to sound really doom and gloom, but on 126 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:28,360 almost every metric, things are worse. 127 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:33,840 So pregnancy discrimination has increased. 128 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:36,520 It used to be 54,000 women a year got pushed out of the job 129 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:38,240 for getting pregnant. That's a woman. 130 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:42,600 Every 10 minutes, one in nine pregnant women lose their job 131 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:45,080 for getting pregnant. So we thought that was bad 132 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:47,840 enough and then we did the research and found that actually 133 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:51,480 it's increased again. So it's now 74,000 women every 134 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:53,040 year get pushed out of their job. 135 00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:58,480 We also know that mothers have really bad rates. 136 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:03,120 Mental health at the moment, probably because I would say the 137 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:06,760 stress, the financial stress as well as the fact that we're 138 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:11,760 working longer hours, the cost of living crisis, we're poorer 139 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:15,360 than we were 30 years ago. We're financially worse off. 140 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:19,800 We have worse rates of mental health, pregnancy, maternity 141 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:22,440 discrimination is increasing. Meanwhile, the motherhood 142 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:27,440 penalties then stubbornly the same as it was 10 years ago. 143 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:29,240 So we did some research recently. 144 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:35,120 We found that the pay gap between mothers and fathers over 145 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:40,360 a week of earnings is 33%. Mothers are only 33% less than 146 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:44,720 dads over a week. So I'm afraid things are a bit 147 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:49,400 shit, but I'm trying to give, I'm trying to enter the hopeful 148 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:52,920 message, which, you know, the hope is this room, right? 149 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:57,440 It's everybody here, the men who I've met so many nice men today 150 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:04,080 who just really flying the flag for equal parenting who get it, 151 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:08,040 who want things to change. This whole room full of people 152 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:13,080 who are here to advocate for better for working parents and 153 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:16,320 and Elliot, who's managed to bring this room full of people 154 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:19,160 together who we're all you know, you're not all the same. 155 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:22,080 You will different people from different backgrounds with 156 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:25,320 different life experiences who all want to go out there and 157 00:09:25,560 --> 00:09:29,720 create change. And so I mean, let's see, I just 158 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:36,720 want to give it a. I was going to say we can drown 159 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:39,360 our sores at 5:00 PM, there's champagne and Prosecco. 160 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:42,120 But I think you're right to reflect the reality. 161 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:44,200 You know, there is, there is hope, but at the same time we 162 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:48,200 can't sugarcoat things. Lots of people go through lots 163 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:51,280 of stress and working mum's have it have it really, really tough. 164 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:53,640 As you mentioned, there's so many different people in this 165 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:57,120 room and in design this event that that was on purpose. 166 00:09:57,120 --> 00:09:59,200 You know, the the experience of motherhood is intersectional. 167 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:02,280 What would you say is the different experiences for 168 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:06,160 mothers when we take into account class and race and 169 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:08,240 disability and other characteristics? 170 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:11,840 I mean, there's not enough data on this, but the data that we 171 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:16,600 have shows that things are worse for black and brown women and 172 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:19,680 they're worse for disabled mothers and mothers with 173 00:10:19,680 --> 00:10:21,880 disabled children. There was a brilliant report on 174 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:27,200 Mud Forces Society about two or three years ago, which found 175 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:31,840 that black women face a more significant motherhood penalty 176 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:35,760 than any of the demographic didn't look at disabled women or 177 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:38,080 or women with disabled children because the data just didn't 178 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:42,000 exist. But it found that black women 179 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:46,240 face this intersectional discrimination because of the 180 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:51,160 ethnicity pay gap as well as the motherhood penalty and the 181 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:53,800 discrimination that you the bias that you experience in the 182 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:56,800 workforce. So we know that black Caribbean 183 00:10:56,800 --> 00:11:01,160 women are 11 percentage points less likely to be employed when 184 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:04,600 they have children than black fathers are. 185 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:07,880 For white women, that's only 5 percentage points compared to 186 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:14,480 white men, and Bangladeshi women are 17% more likely to be 187 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:15,880 unemployed when they have children. 188 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:19,120 Black women are also the demographic that are most likely 189 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:21,240 to be rejected for a flexible working request. 190 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:26,640 So there, there definitely is intersectional experiences and 191 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:30,680 it's far worse for black and brown mothers, the demographic I 192 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:34,000 would say that have it the hardest, and mothers of disabled 193 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:37,680 children, and they are being systematically ignored by 194 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:39,880 everything that we're doing, the whole system. 195 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:43,040 It seems to be getting far worse for mothers of disabled 196 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:44,680 children. But we just don't have the data 197 00:11:44,680 --> 00:11:47,720 to tell you what that looks like because nobody's bothered to 198 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:50,640 collect it, which I think speaks for itself. 199 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:55,000 But yeah, things are things are shit. 200 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:57,160 Sorry, this is really depressing. 201 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:00,440 Can you ask me a nice? Question song would you play 202 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:02,960 today to your children the sums up motherhood. 203 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:05,560 Oh. God, Ben Nicola asked. 204 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:07,560 What song sums up your motherhood? 205 00:12:07,560 --> 00:12:09,920 The first song that came into my head was Thriller by Michael 206 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:12,960 Jackson. Do you do the dance? 207 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:15,840 We did debate. Should we come on to music and 208 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:17,720 do the dance? Maybe later, maybe later. 209 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:19,240 We'll see. But I think that's an important 210 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:22,680 point too often when we're doing inclusion. 211 00:12:22,680 --> 00:12:26,000 Work regardless of. The focus we don't go into that 212 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:28,000 intersectionality. We don't focus. 213 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:31,600 On different groups and what I've loved in your work through 214 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:34,440 Prank and Scrooge and now in the work that you do is that you've 215 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:37,440 always looked at that. You've always looked at the wide 216 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:39,320 range of. Motherhood and I just want to. 217 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:42,520 Really encourage everybody in the room that does this work to 218 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:45,000 make sure we're going to that level of detail, to make sure 219 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:46,800 everyone's included in the conversations. 220 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:49,040 So we've spoken today about Dad's parenting out loud and 221 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:52,400 being equal parents at home. What impacts? 222 00:12:52,680 --> 00:12:54,320 From your from your perspective does that. 223 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:57,680 Have on the lives of. Of mums and what? 224 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:00,400 I mean, I'm not going to say anything that's going to shock 225 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:06,160 anybody in this room, but we, we, I mean, we know that if dads 226 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:09,920 take time out to care for their kids, like a decent chunk of 227 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:12,640 time, that it reduces the bias in workplaces. 228 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:16,200 Of course it does. Because if both men and women 229 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:19,920 are equal risk, then there's no point in having a negative bias 230 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:23,280 towards women. And that negative bias is really 231 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:26,920 well researched. So we know that mothers are seen 232 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:32,320 as 10% less competent than women without children. 37% of 233 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:36,640 employers say they would advertise jobs for men only if 234 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:40,160 the law allowed it. It's one of my favourites. 235 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:43,640 And the government equalities offers found that women are 236 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:46,840 mothers are half as likely to be promoted as any of the 237 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:51,040 demographic. I mean, you know, it doesn't 238 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:55,120 help when we have like we have people going around saying 239 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:57,680 things like the children of working mothers are more likely 240 00:13:57,680 --> 00:14:00,240 to mug you. Anybody know who said that? 241 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:07,400 Boris Johnson and the, you know, the most powerful man in the 242 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:09,480 world. The president of the United 243 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:13,160 States said in an interview. I think that for the most part, 244 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:15,440 mothers are better off staying at home looking after their 245 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:17,080 children. I mean, we're seeing from 246 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:21,960 America as well this whole see change in the way we talk about 247 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:24,760 women in the workforce and it's very much, you know, you really 248 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:27,120 shouldn't be working because your job is to be at home. 249 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:29,840 And that's really scary. I've gone off on a bit of a 250 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:32,480 tangent though. But the the point being, the 251 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:40,280 point being that if we have a system like Sweden where 252 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:45,840 paternity leave is ring fenced and properly paid, then you will 253 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:50,000 see men take time out in their droves to look after their kids. 254 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:52,320 Because it's not that men don't want to, they're desperate to 255 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:54,360 spend more time with their children, but the whole system 256 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:56,800 prevents them from being able to do it. 257 00:14:56,960 --> 00:15:00,720 And once they take that time out, then we know that the bias 258 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:03,400 towards women reduces. The gender pay gap starts to 259 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:05,520 close. We found in some research we 260 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:08,320 didn't close our gender pay gap by 4%. 261 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:12,840 If we gave dad six weeks potentially, but 90% of salary, 262 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:18,080 that is massive. And we, you know, kids would be 263 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:20,080 happier. Everybody would be happier. 264 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:23,360 We'd all be happier. Dads would be happier, Kids 265 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:26,320 would be happier. Marriages are 40% more likely to 266 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:29,640 stay together. If men take time out in those 267 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:32,600 early days to spend time with the kids, that everybody will be 268 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:35,160 better off and women's careers would flourish. 269 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:40,720 So why the hell we don't have a system that enables that is 270 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:42,640 beyond, I'm sure, any of us in this room. 271 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:46,800 Thankfully we have people like Baroness Penn and Stella Creasy 272 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:49,040 who are fighting the good fight inside Parliament. 273 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:50,280 We're. Going to hear from them shortly 274 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:51,360 as well. One thing that's very 275 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:53,880 interesting is today we've been talking about dad's parenting 276 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:58,400 out loud and I'm very aware that the bar is so low and if a dad 277 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:02,880 does the basics, changes a nappy, leaves early, then 278 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:04,480 they're praised. They're like a fantastic day. 279 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:11,200 Congratulations Heather Medal. Often for women, expressing the 280 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:17,560 same is penalized. So how do we encourage dads to 281 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:19,320 parent out? Loud without. 282 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:24,160 Reinforcing that idea that dads need to be praised for it and 283 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:26,360 when women, the mothers do the same thing they are. 284 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:29,320 Penalized. I mean, I think dad's a praise 285 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:31,560 for it in the general public, but I don't think they are in 286 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:35,840 the workforce. I think if dads try and use 287 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:39,160 flexible working or take extended parental leave, they're 288 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:42,960 often viewed with suspicion. Like why would you want to spend 289 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:46,120 time with your child? This is insane to me. 290 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:48,480 Surely you want to just be at work? 291 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:51,440 And we know that dads are much more likely to have a flexible 292 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:56,040 working request tonight. And I've heard some shockers, 293 00:16:56,200 --> 00:17:01,320 some really awful stories about men requesting to take extended 294 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:05,400 leave and the things that their employers say to them, like, oh, 295 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:07,520 shall I buy you a dress while you're at it? 296 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:12,040 Or a guy who told me that his boss used to e-mail him while he 297 00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:13,720 was on parental leave and start the e-mail. 298 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:18,400 Hello nanny. You know, all sorts of sexist 299 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:21,839 crap. And so I think in the workplace, 300 00:17:21,839 --> 00:17:23,160 she's very different to external. 301 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:27,400 But you know, anybody here will know that when you see a dad out 302 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:33,240 with their baby. Oh nice, that's so nice that 303 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:39,000 you're doing that and mum's like staggering behind and gets 304 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:39,360 nothing. It's. 305 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:41,040 Even better if you've got a puppy. 306 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:43,320 If you're out with a puppy, by the way, it's crazy. 307 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:45,280 Everyone thinks of this great human being because you've got a 308 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:47,880 little puppy. So it's so you've spoken quite. 309 00:17:47,880 --> 00:17:52,320 A lot about a lot of the. Like where we are and the the 310 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:54,960 the negative impacts. On us not. 311 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:57,480 Sharing care and and and stuff like that. 312 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:00,800 What do you think would be the changes? 313 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:05,000 Like what do you think would make the most impact to work in 314 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:07,640 Mum's experience? Six weeks, potentially 90% 315 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:11,640 salary, like if there was one thing that would radically 316 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:15,440 change everything, that would be it. 317 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:18,640 I mean the companies are doing that and they're seeing changes 318 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:21,120 in their workforce as a result. We've got we've got the data. 319 00:18:21,120 --> 00:18:24,080 We know that that is going to make the biggest difference. 320 00:18:24,360 --> 00:18:26,560 In addition to that, because we've talked a lot about 321 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:32,200 potentially the other policy that I know changes things 322 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:34,560 radically is kept paid carers leave. 323 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:40,760 So companies that have up to 10 days paid carers leave not only 324 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:43,960 see that it's good for the bottom line though Eccentrica 325 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:46,520 did some research on this. They implemented 10 days pay 326 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:49,640 carriers leave and they found that it contributed 3.2 billion, 327 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:54,360 no million, not billion million to their bottom line in terms of 328 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:57,680 increased retention, improved recruitment, increased 329 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:00,920 productivity. So the, the, you know, it's good 330 00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:04,560 for businesses to do this, but we all know, like if you, when 331 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:07,080 you put your kids in nursery, they're going to get sick 332 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:09,480 because they all go to nursery and they start licking each 333 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:12,320 other. And then like they come back 334 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:15,760 with like all these insane diseases that we thought had 335 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:21,360 died out in the Victorian era, like ham foot and mouth and slap 336 00:19:21,360 --> 00:19:23,320 cheek. And what's the other one that's 337 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,520 yeah, like scurvy and stuff. And that's it. 338 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:31,200 You just have a call constantly. And so to know that your company 339 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:35,360 has a policy where not only are they saying that's OK, we expect 340 00:19:35,360 --> 00:19:37,720 this and that's fine, you take that time off, but also you've 341 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:40,040 got not going to lose out financially because we've just 342 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:43,320 come off trying to lose. So you have no money radically 343 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:46,640 changes things as well. So many people, I'm sure 344 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:49,680 everyone in this room knows you from your incredible work at 345 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:51,560 Printman's school. I never forget that image in 346 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:55,440 Trafalgar Square giving it to the government with about 10s of 347 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:58,640 thousands of working mums and dads surrounding you. 348 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:02,800 Incredible work. Now you are leading growth 349 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:09,040 sperm, a new company. So my main question is the name. 350 00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:14,960 Where did the name come from? I love in a new Mende growth 351 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:17,080 spit, like you talk about kids having a growth spit. 352 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:19,880 So I thought, well, also the whole point of this is for 353 00:20:21,120 --> 00:20:24,360 parents to grow. Like this is a growing period 354 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:27,760 for humans when you have a kid. So yeah, it came from that. 355 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:31,440 And talk to us about the the transition. 356 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:34,000 So I understand the the initiative of the business is 357 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:37,280 all about supporting parents back into the workplace. 358 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:42,560 Talk to us about you think that transition into the workplace 359 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:48,320 looks like and why do so many mothers at that point? 360 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:50,600 Just not enter the. Workforce or find it really 361 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:55,040 difficult and ended up leaving. Yeah, this is a big question. 362 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:57,160 I'll try and not waffle on too much. 363 00:20:57,320 --> 00:20:59,800 We talked about this a bit before when you had the employer 364 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:03,240 panel and there were loads of companies doing these really 365 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:05,720 great policies. But actually, when you go back 366 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:09,320 to work, you feel a bit like you've lost your mind. 367 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:12,720 And I did. I had a really supportive 368 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:14,440 employer. The man, he didn't have kids. 369 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:17,920 He was dead nice though, when I came back and really told me 370 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:20,520 it's fine. We expect it to take a while for 371 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:22,360 you to get your head back into work. 372 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:25,320 I just thought when people talk to me, it was like, you know, 373 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:27,000 I'm Snoopy when he's down the phone. 374 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:30,760 I didn't know what anybody was talking about. 375 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:33,800 And I cried in the toilets every day for three months. 376 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:37,360 And, you know, I was desperate to get back to work actually 377 00:21:37,360 --> 00:21:40,400 after my time to leave. So the fact that I felt like 378 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:43,400 that means that the vast majority of people are really 379 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:44,880 struggling when they go back to work. 380 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:46,280 And the data shows that they are. 381 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:48,840 We did a research project with five and a half thousand parents 382 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:53,840 who've returned to work in the last three years. 89% of them 383 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:55,640 said returning to work is really hard. 384 00:21:56,160 --> 00:22:00,840 And they, the vast majority, more than 3/4, said they didn't 385 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:04,120 get the support that they need. Only 30% said that they felt 386 00:22:04,120 --> 00:22:06,920 their employer understood what it's like to be a parent. 387 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:11,120 Only 30% and one in four left their job as a result. 388 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:15,400 So this is an it's an economic problem as well as a problem for 389 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:17,640 parents. So I just, I just think this is 390 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:20,200 really solvable. Like, I don't understand why we 391 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:24,640 haven't solved this. And so that's what Grace Vert is 392 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:27,360 trying to do. And I think it's not about, you 393 00:22:27,360 --> 00:22:30,040 know, you can have great policies, but this is about 394 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:32,680 support. It's about giving parents that 395 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:34,440 support that they need when they return. 396 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:38,120 So it's career coaching. She talked about being like, it 397 00:22:38,120 --> 00:22:42,440 really changes things. And it's also peer-to-peer 398 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:45,680 support. So companies do try and do 399 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,400 peer-to-peer support programs internally and they do work a 400 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:49,800 bit. But the vast majority of 401 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:53,600 employees that I've spoken to say there are power dynamics 402 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:57,640 that interrupt that ability to have to feel like safe to 403 00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:00,280 support each other. So it's peer-to-peer support. 404 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:03,280 And then there's a course that goes through pregnancy right, 405 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:04,440 the way through to when we returned. 406 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:10,960 So we're testing it at the moment and it rolls out next 407 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:16,920 month and I really want it to be used by people who really need 408 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:19,560 support on it for it to change the way they feel about 409 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:21,040 returning to work. I know it will. 410 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:24,480 I know it will. Hope. 411 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:27,320 Let's talk about hope. You're a hopeful person. 412 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:29,360 I'm a hopeful person. That's why we do our work. 413 00:23:29,360 --> 00:23:31,960 If you have to have a. Ideal scenario. 414 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:35,120 In five years. We not go 5. 415 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:36,880 OK, two years, let's say 2 years. 416 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:42,160 Yeah, we've we've done the work. We've implemented 6 weeks at 90% 417 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:44,120 paternity leave. We were doing more. 418 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:46,960 Career coaching. How? 419 00:23:47,120 --> 00:23:48,600 How would you want to see the world? 420 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:51,760 What would be your? Vision for the world when it 421 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:55,000 comes to equality for mothers. How I would want to see the 422 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,440 world and where I think the world will be might be slightly 423 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:01,320 different. I'll be on it, but I the 424 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:04,960 employment might still well change a lot of things for the 425 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:06,680 better. So within the employment rights 426 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:10,560 bill you have miscarriage leave, you have changes to flexible 427 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:13,680 working laws that I think will genuinely make a difference. 428 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:18,280 We will enhance protections for women when they're pregnant from 429 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:21,640 redundancy and while they're on parental leave and parents when 430 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:23,880 they return from work. So that will be a real game 431 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:26,800 changer as well. We will have the parental leave 432 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:28,720 review, which we're going to come on and talk about in a 433 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:33,000 minute, which should say what we're all saying repeatedly over 434 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:34,520 and over again. I don't know why we need a 435 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:37,160 bloody report and more investigations because we all 436 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:40,840 know what needs to be done. We believe that will conclude 437 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:43,200 that we need six weeks potentially, but 90% of salary 438 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:45,120 and then we'll have that in the world will be wonderful. 439 00:24:45,360 --> 00:24:49,920 That's the ideal. I also think what gives me hope 440 00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:52,080 is the fact that we're not standing for it anymore. 441 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:55,080 We've now got men, you know, used to just be women shouting 442 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:57,520 about this stuff. And now we've, we're seeing more 443 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:02,560 and more men join with us to fight for changes. 444 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:05,200 And that will, will make a big difference because I hate to say 445 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:07,280 it man, but you are more listened to than we are. 446 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:12,120 So you need to keep shouting, please and supporting these 447 00:25:12,120 --> 00:25:13,760 changes. I'd love to hear from people 448 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:16,120 here actually what gives them hope about the future because I 449 00:25:16,120 --> 00:25:18,960 think we don't talk about that enough, particularly at the 450 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:19,400 moment. And. 451 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:20,080 We've. Got time for a? 452 00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:21,720 Question the first time on To Be Able. 453 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:25,440 It's our first live recording and we're going to hand it over 454 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,200 to you. Do we have a question for Tony 455 00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:31,080 or for me or for both about what we've spoken about today and the 456 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:34,000 motherhood penalty experiences? Kelly's hand went straight up in 457 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:36,080 the background there. She's not shy and. 458 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,440 Spent. The last 18 knocking. 459 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:43,760 Small businesses, I didn't quit being like a sense of 600% of 460 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:47,200 the workforce work in businesses under 250. 461 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,560 And in my experience, if stuff is, but it's not easy, but it's 462 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:54,200 been together in larger businesses, a powerful thing can 463 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,520 reach that's 16% of the oldness of the world. 464 00:25:59,360 --> 00:26:02,320 There are companies with less than 250 staff that are doing 465 00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:06,120 some amazing, amazing things. Companies that don't have a 466 00:26:06,120 --> 00:26:09,200 gender pay gap, they they implement really great policies. 467 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:11,840 I think it's really about priorities. 468 00:26:12,120 --> 00:26:15,280 And then there are company, massive companies there. 469 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:20,000 I cannot mention any names of companies because I'm legally 470 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:25,040 bound not to, but companies that win awards for being gender 471 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:26,880 equal. But behind closed doors, you get 472 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,000 pregnant and you're out and you're really signing a non 473 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:31,560 disclosure agreement. They'll be banned next year, non 474 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:34,240 disclosure agreements. So we'll be able to expose that 475 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:40,080 basket. But I think it's not just about 476 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:43,480 policies, it's about care and it's about having a leader who 477 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,000 gets it. And that does filter down and 478 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:49,080 makes a big difference. One last question, Agnes. 479 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:53,320 I'm talking a lot about interceptionality and he's also 480 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:57,480 spoke about the law that are coming in, but how does that 481 00:26:57,480 --> 00:26:59,600 still protect black and brown women? 482 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:02,040 And because oftentimes what happens is. 483 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:03,760 New laws and new policies fell in. 484 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:07,960 Place but actually end up widening the inequities for 485 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,080 people that are already disproportionately more likely 486 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:13,120 to experience than what? So what can we do around that? 487 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:16,640 I'd love to hear from you, what you think because you, I feel 488 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:18,920 like you've got something you're not saying that there's like 489 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:22,920 something that's that you have thought through that you're 490 00:27:23,120 --> 00:27:25,320 like. A lot of policies come in and 491 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:27,960 they sound really great, fancy slogan and so forth, but 492 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:31,440 actually a lot of worthy fluff within a lot of environment 493 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:37,600 don't get to benefit from those policies and become kind of kind 494 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:39,720 of a washboard on the outside. Yeah, we've done this thing, now 495 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:40,600 let's. Do bond. 496 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:42,880 And people are still feeding the bond. 497 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:45,240 So I think we've just, I wouldn't be saying there's an 498 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:47,400 answer, but I think if it's really important for people in 499 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:49,960 this room who are working in this basis like what you said 500 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,320 earlier to really understand that there are unintended 501 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,120 constants sometimes in sick, have probably gotten sick. 502 00:27:56,120 --> 00:28:00,320 It was the problem. But the people especially who 503 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:03,320 are facing the front of these issues just are not. 504 00:28:03,360 --> 00:28:06,600 Are not. I mean, we saw that with Shep 505 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,280 and to leave, didn't we? When Shep and to leave came in 506 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:10,960 and we've looked at the data now. 507 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:16,400 Dads who are from low income households are much less likely 508 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:19,280 to use SharePoint to live. It just benefits people well for 509 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:21,560 your families. The childcare system benefits 510 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:24,520 well for your families. It doesn't benefit lower income 511 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:27,080 families. I think the way that you is 512 00:28:27,120 --> 00:28:31,600 should design policy and the way that you test policy is about 513 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:34,680 firstly data and analyzing the data as you go. 514 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,520 And then, you know, changing policy if it's not working, but 515 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:40,960 also having people round the table when you're designing 516 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,040 policy to input on it. So like what you're campaigning 517 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:48,880 for with children with special educational needs, having a 518 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:53,000 group that the government listened to of parents who are 519 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:57,400 experiencing this stuff day in, day out to input on how that 520 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:01,120 policy is designed means that you won't end up in a situation 521 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:03,360 where it's just not benefiting the right people. 522 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:06,200 Thank you, Agnes. Agnes is incredible. 523 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:08,560 There's incredible work, so make sure you talk to her afterwards 524 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:13,160 as well. We've been to be a boy. 525 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:18,640 I'm gonna say a massive thank you to everyone that listens in, 526 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:22,480 tunes in, encourages, shares the episodes. 527 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:24,800 We've been overwhelmed by the the feedback. 528 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:28,240 It's been really incredible. And I love doing it with. 529 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:30,520 You because we just have we have a lot basically. 530 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,080 So thank you so much everyone and thanks so much.