Hello everybody, and welcome to season 2 of the To Be a Boy
podcast. How are you?
Back. Season 2, baby, we made it for a
whole season and we're back. We survived a whole season.
You all seem to be loving it and we are loving it.
I am loving it. Are you loving it?
I am loving it. I mean, when we started this
podcast, obviously we we thought it would be a good idea clearly.
But yeah, thank you so much. Like the feedback has been
incredible, Really, really incredible.
It seems like it's really helping people, informing people
and I'm enjoying it. I'm loving it.
Like it's really fun. It's really fun, yeah.
And I mean, it's not only fun, but it's teaching us stuff that
is so invaluable. So I feel like it's a giving me
a little manual for how to actually parent my two boys,
which is brilliant. And you know, I've got to say a
big thank you to Stephen Graham and Jack Thorne for giving us a
marketing boost halfway through the podcast.
That was so good of them to make that program, just to ensure
that people suddenly started thinking, what about boys?
I mean, the timing of this, the timing couldn't have been
better. Yeah.
I feel like we launched at just the right time.
If we launched after, it would have been like, oh, you're just
doing this because our lessons came out.
Yeah. And the world started talking
about boys. It was like, oh, here we are.
Yeah. There's a podcast about boys.
So tell me, Elliot. I'm really interested to hear.
By the way, Elliot's a little bit hungover today.
It was his birthday yesterday. He's a little bit rough around
the edges. And you know, as we progress in
our into our, into our more mature years, drinking all day
on a Wednesday is great for the next day when you wake up.
You know, paracetamol is my best friend today.
And a lot of water, a lot of water.
But had an amazing birthday champagne breakfast at 1019
sitting outside in the sun, Incredible.
And they went to a Turkish restaurant with the rest of the
family. So Well, I'm sure we're all
wishing you a happy birthday, but also, you're my hero.
I can't believe you're actually functioning today after a full
day of drinking. I'd be out for days.
Yeah. And so give us a bit of a
lowdown of what you think you've learned from Season 1 of the
podcast. Yeah, I've been thinking about
this. There's a few things.
So the first one that really has stuck with me is a Nikkei Hutu
boss, the NSPCC. In our adolescent special
episode, she said something which just resonated so much.
She said you have to insert yourself into your child's
online life. It's just so powerful, you know,
it just, it just tells us we have to be part of that world.
And I think I've tried to do it. It's tough.
It's really tough, Yeah, Because it means you have to
consistently do it every day on a Saturday.
When you're better, how are you doing it?
What are you doing? Not very well.
I'm completely honest. Like I have good days and bad
days. Like days when I'm on it and I'm
like, no, no laptop downstairs. What are you doing?
Boundaries. Get off it at 7:00 PM.
Other days where it's a Saturday and it's raining outside and I
just want to chill out and she's in her room and she's content
and I'm resting watching the football and she's doing
whatever. And three hours later I'm like,
shit, actually that was not a good idea.
So it's it's hard, you know, I think it's a good reminder, but
also the reality is that it's like, it's bloody difficult to
do it all the time. And it just takes real like
persistence, real persistence. Yeah, I mean, after doing that
episode, I banned screens from bedrooms and said no more.
And my eldest has slowly tried to migrate back into his bedroom
as best he possibly can. I've managed to stick to that
boundary. But I did have an incident
actually this morning where my eldest son was watching YouTube
Shorts, which I hate. Just to clarify, I cannot bear
YouTube. It's basically.
A TikTok, right? It's Tik.
T.O.K and I don't like them on TikTok but for some reason I've
not allowed it that. I told them it was banned but I
know they're watching and I don't do anything about it.
So he's watching YouTube shorts this morning this video came on
where it was a voice over and a woman playing football and a
young boy playing football. And the voice over said this is
a professional female football player playing against an
amateur 9 year old boy. And as you can see, the amateur
9 year old boy is better at playing football than the
professional female football player.
And that is why the gender pay gap is not big enough.
And I heard this and when my God, what are you watching?
And obviously completely lost my shit rather than dealing with it
in a really calm collected way. I was furious and livid, mainly
because I was crossing myself that I've allowed him to watch
this chewing gum for his brain. And then was really, really
exposed to some of the messaging that he's getting from that.
So we obviously had a very heated document and I told him
that he's never watching YouTube again.
And then he left the school and I'll have to do some make making
up when he gets back. But it really was a wake up call
of some of the stuff that they're just being thrown at
them all the time. And do you know what it is?
It could just. It just takes you by surprise.
Yeah. It's like, literally, you could
just be chilling, right? The day's going OK, you have
plans. And then all of a sudden
something just random like that pops up and you're thinking,
that's not what I was planning to do today.
Like, how did that enter my world?
But that's the Internet is that you can't necessarily control
what's gonna pop up, right? It's just the next video, the
next video, the next video. And that conversation you said
there reminds me of there was a big debate about, as a man,
could you beat Serena Williams at tennis?
And it's like, you can't fucking beat Serena.
Of course you can't. It's like actual conversation
amongst men of like, oh, maybe you could because you're a man
and it's like she isn't like old class one of the best ever
tennis players ever. But the conversation, the fact
that like like that conversation was actually a thing, I think
just shows like a lot of the conversation we had a bit about
in this podcast, how, you know, we as parents overestimate our
boys IQ, for example, we build boys up.
We we assume boys and men are going to be better and stronger,
etcetera. Not saying we shouldn't build
our boys up, but not to the detriment of women and girls.
And so, yeah, I completely hear you can be really difficult to
just monitor what they're watching online and make sure
it's healthy. So what about you?
What else have you? Yeah, from season 1.
I mean, well, that coupled with Lenox Genesi, of course, who we
both loved. Who a quote that she said that
really resonated with me was all the worry in the world won't
prevent death, it will prevent life.
And that coupled with a quote from Jonathan Haidt actually,
who hasn't been on the podcast, but who Lenore works closely
with, where he said we're over managing our children in the
real world and under managing them in the online world.
They both really stuck with me. And so since doing season 1 and
absorbing all of this information from experts, I have
try to limit the screen time that my kids have, ask them more
questions about what what they're watching, extract them
from the bedroom so I have more opportunity to see what it is
that they're engaging with. But I'm also doing a lot more
active socializing with them and encouraging socializing.
And actually that's that's it's not easy because when I was
younger and set blue haired, Sarah, the therapist said this
as well on the adolescence episode.
When I was younger, every evening you were around at a
friend's house for tea. You go around, have tea, have a
play date. And there's a lot less of that
now. And so the only way that you can
ensure that your kids are really socializing more is by you
coordinating it and you hosting it.
So I'm finding there are a lot more kids around at my house.
I'm like a little old woman that lived in a shoe.
I'm like, there's kids everywhere.
They're everywhere. And that is joyous and sometimes
a massive pain in the ass, but I just want to, I want, I want my
kids to have more time with other kids as much as possible.
And so I'm doing all the work to try and ensure that that's a
reality. Yeah, the Lenore episode
literally changed the way our parent and I think my eldest,
one thing she's probably the most happy about that we do this
podcast is that we had Lenore as a guest is opened up her world
is opened up her world to the point where, you know, I've said
it before, I'm letting her walk to school.
I drop her outside around the corner.
She'll walk to school. Or if we go to the park, she'll
take a different route and walk home by herself.
She's nine years old. And now the other day we went to
Starbucks and there's a three of us.
It's her and my youngest have three of us in in the queue and
she wants this strawberry drink. So I said to her, like, I want
that drink too. Can you order one for me?
I'm going to go and sit down while you order the drink.
And she starts panicking. I don't, it's too big of an
order. It's too complicated.
You know, I'm, I'm nine years old.
I'm like, you've got this. It's fine.
You can do it. So she shows up, I sit down and
I can see her ordering and talking and, and looking over at
me for approval. And she orders a drink and she
orders tea and she gives them her name and she sits down and
she goes to get the drink. And that's what that's it.
This is it. Like you can have this
conversation with an adult. You can go into the complexities
of what you want for your order and you can do this.
And this is actually the skills that you're going to need for
life. And that is all.
Thank you to Lenore. So Lenore has literally given my
kid more freedom. It's changed the way our parent.
If you haven't that episode, go back.
You have to listen to that episode.
Yeah, you have to. Yeah.
Thank you, Lenore. I mean, Max Dickens touched on
this a bit as well when he said when he was younger, when his
parents would have friends over for dinner, he and his sister
were expected to go around and take the orders of the adults
and deliver them their food and deliver them their drinks.
And they never complained about it because it was just that's
what you did. And it built skills in them to
be able to talk to adults and have adult conversation.
And I can't, but he was saying that and I was thinking, I
cannot imagine trying to get my kids to go around and serve
drinks to a bunch of adults or like ask them what it is that
they want. So I feel like I do sometimes
feel like with kids now, we're we, we, what's the right word?
I feel like our expectations of them but sometimes are not high
enough of what they're able to do. 100% I mean, that Starbucks
story right there. I know she can do that.
I know she can have that conversation.
She's capable of doing that. Like, literally, she gives me a
laugh stick every day at home. Yeah, like, I know you're witty.
To somebody else, yeah. Exactly.
Keep the energy you're gonna give it to me at home and try
and debate me about these big issues way above your age and
you're gonna back chat about what you don't do or don't want
for dinner. And you've got all these smart
things to say in the home. You can 100% do that in
Starbucks. Like you need to be able to keep
the same energy when you're outside.
And that's all I want is I want and them to be able to just
function and have adult conversation and be confident
and express themselves and be able to just articulate
themselves with different human beings.
And that that is what I think Leonor taught us.
Another thing that has stuck with me, the conversation with
November, and this has come up quite a few times just around
the issue around role models and everyone's trying to find them.
And I think Sarah said in that episode that the role models in
our community are really important.
Like the, the, the, the football coach, the person that leads the
youth work at church. Yeah, those community leaders
are, are really key when it comes to male role models.
And I think sometimes we're looking for the celebrity or
we're looking for the online influence.
So, and don't get me wrong, those things can be good too.
We're just going back to community, going back to who's
in in our life, who's who's around us.
And I think that's kind of harder to do.
It means effort and it means engage with people in the real
world and in real life and trying to, as you were saying
with your kids, like curate their environment a little bit
more. But I genuinely think that we're
missing that. And I've just been thinking so
much about I guess what we need to do as a society, but more so
individually to create that around ourselves.
So that's what we really start out with.
I think men as well need to step up a bit more in that respect.
Like my partner is a football coach and he didn't want to ever
be a football coach. He just was left with the
situation where our youngest either didn't get to play
football or he stepped up and had to be the coach for the
whole team. And so he did step up and
actually he would say he's got more out of it than our son has
because he gets to hang out with other men who he likes, talks
about football, but also has this opportunity to bond with
other men that he wouldn't otherwise have an opportunity to
bond with. And they go to the pub and they
drink beer and they talk about teams.
And it's really, it's a completely different world to
his work. And it is so good for him.
But also he feels such a sense of responsibility now for those
kids. And he knows that for some of
them, football is their only structure and without it, they
would feel at sea. And so, you know, of course,
that makes him feel good. So I think, you know, I would
encourage any men listening to this to be that community leader
because it you'll get a lot out of it.
And on that as well, an episode that really stood out for me was
with Alex Holmes And listening, I didn't say very much during
that episode because it was such a privilege to sit and listen to
the two of you. Alpha may heterosexual men, big
men talk about loneliness and depression and mental health and
men, and I don't think that happens enough where you so
candidly and it was so raw, talked about your experiences so
beautifully. And I know that men, male
friends of mine messaged me after that episode and said how
much it meant to them to hear you both talk about that.
So I mean, that coupled with the fact that Alex Holmes's voice,
my word that that baritone voice, I mean, he could make a
lot of money on the phone lines. That's all I'm saying.
Only fans, Alex, only fans get on there.
And when you say big, he is big. He's like 6-2.
I'm quite a tall man. He's a big guy.
Now that was a special episode. And yeah, it's just, it's just
really amazing. I think that the idea that men
don't talk, but then when they do, it's emotion, like so
emotional. I've been, I've been in so many
conversations with men and when they're able to just be honest
about their experiences, it's a really kind of, and it shouldn't
be a unique experience, but it is.
But it's a really emotional, sensitive kind of time where you
probably feel the most alive. I think because you're
connecting on a different level other than the surface, the
logic, the competition, the the kind of what next?
It's a it's a different kind of level that you're accessing,
which I think a lot of men don't get there very often.
So it's when you do it's, it's really, it's a really, really
special one. I think Alex is one of those
people that has always done that in every interaction, you know,
and he's just he's just realizing to himself and he
doesn't try to. One thing I like that's about
Alex episode is that he he wasn't trying to come on here
and like be his best self or or sell anything or he was like,
this is who I am, take me as I am today.
And I think what he did in that episode was not just talk about
the fact that many to be vulnerable and open.
He just was it, and I think that is rare.
Sometimes you get people who will come along and say the
right things, but actually they're maybe not being that.
And I think Alex is a good example of someone who just is
that like he is what he talks about every day.
It's lovely to hear that you had like loads of loads of men
messaging, which is lovely. Sarah said some things.
That's blue haired Sarah, the therapist on the other lessons
episode. She spoke about the fact that if
you're listening to this podcast, then you're probably
doing good, you're probably doing OK.
And that message stood out for me because, look, a lot of that
we talk about, it's quite like there's a lot of doom, right?
There's a lot of like, the world's going to shit where
we're in trouble, it's going to end, Boys are in trouble, girls
are in trouble. And it's really easy to be
negative about everything and feel like there's nothing we can
do. And I just love that.
The fact that she said, you know, if you're here, if you're
interested, if you're listening, if you're dedicating some of
your time when you could be doing anything else to actually
trying to inform and listen, then you're probably doing a
really, really good job. And for the most part, that's
all that is necessary. Like, we don't have to be
perfect parents. Actually being good most of the
time is probably okay and there's some room around the
edges to get it wrong. And our children are still going
to work out to be fully grown, healthy people.
I really like that. And I kind of gave me, and I
think hopefully a lot of people like a sense of actually, yeah,
we're doing all right. I mean, that couple with what
Comrade and James said around the fact that their research has
shown how kind and thoughtful and intelligent and fun this
generation of kids are, and that the press and media are
obviously trying to sell papers. So they're making everything
sound terrifying. And that the reality is, it's
not actually. Yes, there are some things we
need to be on the lookout for that are new, but the vast
majority of children and kids are doing really well and are
really happy, contented kids. And I found that enormously
comforting because you do sometimes get sucked into this
narrative that well, it's something that Richard Reeve
said recently in in an article the author of of Boys and Men,
He said we seem to be more interested in the trouble that
boys are causing rather than the trouble that boys are in.
And we do seem at all I've seen and the press is this fear
mongering around boys that they're, they're going to just
cause problems for everybody when that isn't the case.
And actually, we should be more interested in the challenges
that boys are facing and thinking about how our
generation can help them solve those problems rather than
beating them over the head with a stick constantly.
Yeah, yeah. And I think what I'm really
proud of is I think we're getting that balance right, you
know, reflecting some of the real, the real outcomes around
violence against women and girls and misogyny.
That's the reality. And, you know, we don't shy away
from that. That exists.
And we need to talk about that. And there needs to be
accountability around that, definitely.
But at the same time, also reflecting that boys are in
trouble. Some boys are in trouble, not
all, but a lot of boys are in trouble and they are at risk of
harming themselves. And that's a real conversation.
And those two things can exist at the same time.
And we can hold those two truths at the same time.
I think it's really, really, really important to do that.
I want to give a shout out to Amy Lang, the birds and the
bees. To be honest, I was surprised by
the feedback. You guys want to talk about sex
like you guys want to talk about the birds and the bees.
I hold my hands up. I wasn't aware how much, but we
need to do more stuff around sex, like and how to talk to
your kids about sex because the amount of messages I had, like,
Oh my gosh, thank you. There was so much I took from
that episode. You know, it's clearly something
that parents have been struggling with forever.
Yeah. You know, But I think maybe in
the new world where young people do have access to information
and lots of information and porn and messaging and stuff like
that, it's maybe even more so important for us to get ahead of
it. So the Amy Lang episode and the
stuff that she spoke about in regards to how to have the
conversation, big up, Amy Lang, we're definitely going to talk
more about sex. I think people were also
certainly for me, surprised at how young you meant to start and
the content of that conversation.
And I'm really kind of about sex.
I grew up with my mum was very open with me about it, so I have
no qualms talking about it. But even I took from it, wow,
there is some stuff that I really need to be addressing
that I felt needs to wait until later.
So oral sex, talking about what oral sex is, is something I have
now addressed with my eldest son.
Wasn't the easiest conversation, I'll be honest.
I mean, it was kind of hilarious.
I've told a number of my friends what happened in.
I laughed about it a lot, but I mean, they need to, they need,
you need to be having this conversation with them before
they go to secondary school. Because if you don't bit have it
with them before they go to secondary school, you can
guarantee somebody they'll either get a video or they'll be
told by somebody else what oral sex is.
Yeah, Now Season 1 has been incredible, so thank you so
much. We've learned.
We've learned so much. We've had a laugh and we're
excited about the incredible guests we're going to get into
Season 2 and the conversations we're going to have should go
into a bit of the feedback. Yeah, there's.
Some people I want to read. So we've had loads of emails.
Thank you so much to everyone that's been emailing in.
There's one guy, his name's Rick, not Slick Rick, Rick
Beasley. I was going to read a little bit
of his e-mail. He says, Dear Jolie and Elliot,
I wanted to thank you so much for making this podcast.
My sister-in-law sent me the link and she thought I'd like it
and she was right. For someone who doesn't listen
to many podcasts, let alone binge them, I end up listening
to all three episodes in one day.
Wow, Richard, that's a lot of. Listen, Richard.
You and your guests gave so much helpful, insightful comments and
kind words which are much needed and I'm really looking forward
to hearing more. I'm a stay at home dad and I've
been for nearly 15 years while my wife works.
Both my children were born in Hong Kong and we lived there
until we moved back to London in 2020.
It can be lonely for anyone as a stay at home parent, especially
on the other side of the world, and I've often had a negative
view of that part of my life. However, after listening to your
podcast, I found myself going through photos and videos of my
children when they were younger. We were slightly different
viewpoint. I realized how incredibly lucky
I was to be able to spend that time with my children and have
the relationship I do now with them now as teenagers.
I think your podcast is so important as there is too little
information entertainment regarding positive male role
models compared to the unstore of toxicity out there.
You guys are awesome as is my sister-in-law.
Take care of yourselves and thank you again, Rick easily.
Thank you, Rick. It's.
Very exciting. Lovely.
That means a lot. It's a lot being any stay at
home parent. It's hard work.
You're doing God's work, Rick. I haven't been a stay at home
parent, but I have done a long period of maternity leave and I
found it awfully lonely. So yeah.
Yeah, yeah. Thank you, Rick.
And I think that amongst the loads of messages, it's just
really nice to know that I think when you're, when you're
parenting, it can be isolating and difficult.
And you find that you're just doing it myself.
And, and the fact that we're being able to, I guess, be a
friend and another voice and let people know they're not alone
and reflect their reality back to them and help to bring on an
interest in people that have like, you know, research and
insights. So incredible, incredible,
incredible feedback. What about feedback you've got
Jodie? What's it?
What's it saying? I have a number of male friends
who've had a really hard time recently.
They're all dads. And they they are the ones I
would say, who have been messaging me the most saying how
much this podcast has meant to them because they want to be the
best fathers they can possibly be.
But they also have had mental health struggles and are now
wrestling with these stereotypes and this feeling that they need
to not express their emotions because that's not what men do.
Coupled with the fact that they know they're really struggling
and how they deal with it. And they've found the podcast
really helpful. So, you know, that's been
lovely. I think people have been crying
out for this content for a really long time.
So we have got a cracking season coming up.
We have. We're going to change the
format. We're going weekly, baby.
We're basically part of your lives now.
This is it, Yeah. You're going to have to set your
reminders every Tuesday. We want you tuning in.
We want to know what you think. And I are going to have to do a
lot more thinking, a lot more talking.
Yeah, you're. Going to see me every week
generally. I know I'm looking.
How do you feel about that? I'm looking for that.
I mean, you know, you. I see, just see my family mostly
every single day. And then you.
You and Kaylee. I'm looking forward to seeing
you and Kaylee every week. Now we're going, we're going
weekly and I'm so excited about this.
We're going to have an interview with an amazing special guest
one week where we delve into their expertise.
You know, they'll talk about sex, they'll talk about
masculinity, all the issues that we're interested in and you're
interested in. And the other week, me and Jodie
are going to be chewing the fat talking about reflecting on that
guests input and views and research.
We're going to be talking about current affairs, what's going on
in our own lives that is relevant.
And also importantly, we're going to be answering our
audience questions as well. So please do write to us to be
avoid team@gmail.com. We want to hear your questions,
your suggestions, your reflections.
We're going to make time to talk about all the things that you're
interested in. So let us know like what you
want us to talk about. Any questions you have for us,
do our best to answer them all and.
The guests we have got coming up on my I mean even I am impressed
with what we've got coming up we've got Are you ready for this
Catelyn Moran? I mean who needs no introduction
really, does she? But she's obviously written a
book called What about Men? And also is just bloody
hilarious. We've got Josh Sargent who is a
15 year old boy who has is writing a book about red pill
culture. So Josh says he became
interested in masculinity influences found a lot of the
content really useful and really helpful and really positive.
But after a while of navigating that world, realized and became
aware of all the toxicity and all the toxic messages he was
receiving and is now trying to distill that into a book to help
parents and help teachers understand how to help kids like
him navigate this online world. I mean, does he want to be any
much of an overachiever like 15 year old writing a book?
Can't wait to. Talk, drink and alcohol behind
the bike shed and. Yeah, 2020 bottles of 2020.
Oh, you're quite a bit younger than me.
Of Butler Torch 2020. Yeah.
Do you have 2020? White.
What was it? White light.
White lining white lining 2020 I bottles of hooch but I lived in
moved to Newcastle when I was 18 so I have to say bottler hooch.
Botler hooch, Baccardi breezes and Baccardi breezes.
Breezes. Yeah, all the Alka pops.
Going out, having two hooches and a Baccardi Breezer, that's
it. Like good night.
Yeah, not all day drinking like you were yesterday.
Now you're we've grown up. We've got coming on the
Secretary of State for Science, Innovation and Technology, Peter
Kyle. So we're going to be asking
questions about what the government is doing, about the
challenges that kids are facing in the online world.
Then there's your questions. For that, we really want to know
what you want to ask Peter Kyle, what you want to do.
We have had some. I've had a comment come to me
about how can we challenge what the social media companies are
doing because obviously there's a space for parents.
Of course we can regulate what our children are doing.
I'm looking forward to that episode.
It's gonna be gonna be a cracker.
My son wants me to ask him if he's allowed to get a phone at
12 and he said if he says yes then I have to get him a phone
so. But you can get him an old Nokia
with Snake on it. I've got, he's already got one
he's already got. One, he's got a brick phone.
Already. Yeah, he wants a smartphone.
Peter Kell say no. We've got Jessica Leahy who's
going to talk about addiction and how to ensure that you're
you reduce the chance of your son becoming addicted to
anything. We've got Stephen Biddulph, who
is legend Don and he wrote the original book How to Raise Boys.
Can we just take a second to, to really to really like take this
in? Steve Bidolf is the legend.
And the way he speaks is a master class in storytelling and
emotion. I guarantee you'll be in tears
for this episode. Like, have the tissues ready
because Steve, he caught me. You know, I was just like going
about my day, but I'm going to record a podcast.
Why am I in tears? Listen to Steve Bidolf talking
about raising boys, please. Like I wasn't prepared for this.
Yeah, it was the. Moment episode.
I can't wait for people to hear it.
Yeah, he's incredible. And he has just one of again, he
has one of those voices that is just stops you in your tracks.
And so he's not only full of wisdom and hope and
thoughtfulness, but he also has one of those voices where you
just want to just put it as close to your ear as possible
and snuggle up with a nice cup of tea.
Bedtime story voicing. Then we've got Uju Asika who has
written the book Raising Boys Who Do Better, very much looking
forward to interviewing her. We've got Future Men who are a
brilliant charity who work with kids in schools and they know a
lot about what is happening to our kids, basically what is
happening to boys. We've got Ben Hurst and Dan
Guinness from Beyond Equality who that is a glorious
interview. They again, they work with kids
in schools. They have been in and out of
government recently talking to the government about what they
should do. They just again have so much
wisdom and lots, lots more. We may as we did with the first
series, if things happen, we may jazz it up a bit with a little
bonus episode. Good to talk about a specific
issue. It's going to be a cracker.
I'm dead excited. It is.
It is.
I thank you so much. We appreciate you.
We love you. Thank you for listening.
This is to be a boy podcast. We're going to see you next
week. See ya.
I'm a Transformation Director with 15 years experience helping
businesses make major. I bring a deep understanding of
problem solving, trend analysis and stakeholder engagement.
I'm able to operate at both executive and team level.
I'm personable and pragmatic with a huge passion for my work.
Pregnancy and maternity discrimination shreds the
careers of 74,000 women every year at Pregnant and then
Screwed. We can stop it.
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