This episode is supported by Movember, the leading charity
changing the face of Men's Health.
Welcome back to To Be Away podcast with me, Elliot Ray.
And me, Joey Braley. Today we are joined by one of
the most recognizable voices in health and fitness in the UK,
Joey Wicks. During the pandemic, Joe became
a household name with his PE. With Joe, workouts streamed live
into homes and classrooms around the country.
I was definitely in my living room doing star jumps and push
ups. Joe has a huge following as the
body coach and author of Leaning 15 Recipe books.
Sharing workouts and nutritional advice has helped millions of
people rethink their relationship with exercise and
food. Joe has used his platform to
speak openly about mental health, ADHD, body image and his
own upbringing, and campaigning for better support for
Children's Health and well-being.
Through documentaries, books and his advocacy around food and
physical activity, he's becoming an important voice in the
national conversation about how we help young people thrive.
Welcome to the podcast Joe Ricks.
How you doing, Joe? I'm good.
Thank you for that introduction, mate.
It's lovely to finally get to catch you.
We obviously bumped into show an event.
I'm so glad we can have a conversation now.
And yeah, I think your podcast's great.
What you're doing, the mess you're sharing is really
important and so I'm super passionate about.
So I'm looking forward to our chat really.
Oh, it's great to have you here. So, Joe, we met last June and we
were in the queue for Jamie Oliver's new premiere.
And I was, I was like, you know, with the normal people, with my
friend Natalie in in the queue. And I look behind me and Joe
Wicks is behind me in the queue. And I thought, you know what,
you could have easily have gone straight in with the rest of the
VIPs. And I thought it showed us such
a humility and, you know, a grounded person who was willing
to to join the queue that I want to start with that.
You know, you've had a massive rice to frame.
You're a household name. I'm sure you get recognised
everywhere you go. How have you managed to maintain
that grounding and that humility as you've become more popular?
I get asked this question a lot actually, because I think it's
such a perception of fame and like what your life really like,
you know, from an outsider's view of social media.
And I might do an event and 1000 people turn up, but that's
obviously like an event that I've organised and I've like
announced it and stuff. But actually I really, I really
have a nice level of fame. Like I can, you know, I go into
London my and I jump on the train, like obviously go to
certain events where there's lots of families and kids and
they I'm not going to say people don't recognise, but it's not
like to the point that I don't want to be out.
And I actually always love the interaction.
Sometimes it's a quick little, you know, Oh, Joe, I loved your
videos in lockdown or I'm with my friend who's got your
cookbook. Can we have a quick selfie?
It's not like a, an, it's like a fame from like a, you know, like
a pop star or like a, a, a famous TV actor.
I think because people always feel like they know me, like
they sort of feel like I'm a friend when I, when I bump into
them because they've done all my workouts.
I've been in their living room. So it's always been, yeah, I've
never really had an issue with it.
Do you know what I mean? If anyone ever sees me when I'm
out, I always say, like always say hi because sometimes people,
they get a bit nervous and then they'll DM me on Instagram.
I'm saying, I just saw you. I really wanted to say this.
And they'll send me this lovely message and I say, oh, listen,
next time you see me, like tell me because I love meeting
people. Like knowing that I've got that
connection and I've actually had an impact on someone's life.
So yeah, it's something that it's, it's, it's not been, I
haven't actually think about that.
It's really just I just kept my feet on the ground.
I am who I am. You know, I really have a close
group of friends that I've kept my sort of circle quite close
and I, I didn't really get caught up in the whole fame and
celebrity red carpet kind of atmosphere of, of that
environment. So yeah, basically I've built my
business at home on an iPhone with my family.
It just so happens that you all got to see it and lock down and
I've televised it through Instagram and stuff.
Yeah, I love that. I definitely feel like I I knew
you when I met you because you've been in my living room.
But let's let's go back to the beginning then.
So you've spoken quite openly about like your upbringing.
And I know it wasn't always easy addiction with your parents and
and mental health as well. Can we talk about that in
regards to your upbringing and what were the the parts of it
that really shaped the man you are today?
Yeah, I've, I've gone down this sort of path of exploration
around my child a little bit recently with, you know, I did
Desert Island. This was the first time I really
publicly spoke about my dad's kind of addiction to my mum's
mental health issues. And then I did a documentary
with Channel 4, which is called Facing my childhood.
I really sort of went into like what my parents went through and
how that affected me as an adult.
But the more I understand it, the more I realised that
everything I went through as a as a child has really shaped me
as the man I am today. Like it's really taught me to be
a good parent, to be present, to have empathy for people and to
really be considerate and thoughtful and caring towards
other people. And you know, I really, although
I went through, you could say a traumatic childhood, there was a
lot of, you know, a lot of shouting and, you know, lots of
kind of, I didn't see the drugs, but the effect of drugs on my
dad because my dad was a heroin addict.
So it's very, it's like it's just a sedative, right?
So he was there but wasn't really emotionally available.
And my mum had eating disorders and extreme like OCD.
So I had two really different personalities that I was living
with. But again, I don't, I didn't let
it let it define me. Not all sort of hang on.
I didn't hang on a second and let it bring me down.
I actually just used all this sort of like mad energy and mad
sort of passion I had and just sort of started sharing at the
world. And so yeah, I just think.
But a lot of my love and drive towards helping families,
especially families with children, parents with mental
health issues, it comes from that experience and living in a
council flat, living in that environment of being on benefits
and, you know, being skinned and everything, being you're just
stressed out and worried about money all the time.
And any money that came in was, was being used for drugs and
stuff. So yeah, I, I see it.
I just think people say, like, would you change your life or
change your childhood? And the truth is like, I just,
I'm really proud of who I am today.
And I wouldn't change what I went through because it's given
me a resilience and a mental strength to really do good
things in my, with my energy, my time.
So yeah, I'm proud of my background really, to be fair.
Yeah, I can imagine when we we talked about you being so
grounded, I can imagine having that upbringing, you know what
it's like to struggle, you know what it's like to not be in a
position you're in now. And I guess that that helps, you
know, in regards to perspective. So as you were growing up in
terms of like obviously difficult around the house, up
and down, were there people in your wider community?
Do you have role models that you look to?
Did you have like a shining light?
Did you have examples where you could say, yeah, this is who I
want to become, this is how I want to act and behave?
What was that like for you? So, yeah, I grew up obviously
in, in a council flat. You know, we, we didn't have, we
were on benefits. My mum, my mum didn't work for,
for many of my earlier years, my dad was at roofer.
He'd be out and he was like a functionality.
So he would be working, but then he'd be like relapse and then
he'd be in rehab and he'd be gone for months at a time.
And, you know, I had no one around me that was kind of like
ambitious or entrepreneurial, like in business or anything,
you know, and most of my family were probably on benefits at the
time. The the first time I started a
proper role model in my life, I would say was my my PE teachers,
like the male role model who I always found out that like could
really deal with my energy. Because obviously when you got
someone at me, try and make me sit down in maths and sit down
and focus on something that I just didn't enjoy was
impossible. And I was very irritating and I
was annoying. I was, I was, you know,
disruptive, like attention seeking class clown if you like.
But in sport and fitness, they didn't kick me out of those
classes because I was there and they loved it because I was the
one getting everyone and moving and getting, I've got almost
like a, it's funny, I felt like I was a bit of APE assist.
I was assistant to the PET because I'd be the one saying,
right, come on, hurry up, get dressed.
We got to get out there because we can't play football.
I can't play football on my own. Like we're it's a team sport or,
you know, just just like always putting the cones out and trying
to get that session started as quick as possible.
Whereas in the other classes I was disruptive.
I'd be kicked out, I'd be sitting in detention and
isolation and stuff. And so, yeah, I think the PE
teacher and that that role model of someone that like really
liked me, really liked my energy.
We had a great relationship. They made me laugh.
They were always like young and fun.
And I, I really did visualize and want to become a PE teacher.
So that's all I could sort of imagine.
So that was my sort of path. From about 14 or 15, I decided
that when I leave school, I'm going to go to college, go to
university and I'll be a PE teacher.
Obviously, if you Fast forward to lockdown, although I'm not a
qualified PE teacher, I really was like, in that moment, so, so
happy that I was thinking, I'm getting that millions of kids
exercise now. This is like my dream come true.
So I kind of came full circle in that moment.
And I didn't name myself the PE teacher to the nation that was
obviously the media. But I'm really, it's just, it's
kind of like, yeah, it's just really like, what's the word
serendipitous That I became in a way a teacher of PE and sport,
you know, through, through that social media thing.
Yeah, and shout out to all the PE teachers.
Yeah, that is, we talk about role models, male role models,
so much on this podcast 'cause there is such a need for good
male role models at the moment in particular.
And obviously you've seen that the news is very much directed
towards what's going on with boys at the moment, particularly
after adolescence. And now we've got Louis Three's
documentary Manosphere, and there are so many parents so
worried about their boys and that they're going to go down
the wrong route. And a lot of the narrative is
the absent fathers of the problem.
So single mums in particular are really worried about what that
means if they're raising boys and feel completely hopeless,
many of them at the moment. And you've just articulated
beautifully how there are just good men around boys that they
can adopt behaviours that they see from these really great male
role models. From that point around, you
know, male role models, I didn't have a male role role in the
house, but those PE teachers through my secondary school
years that they really were influential.
But I think the one thing I'll say about, you know, when, when
you have like an absent parent or, you know, your mum's kind of
replacing that role, like my mum always loved us and supported
us. And I think if you love and
support your children and you, there's that communication and
there's those boundaries because my mum was really strict of us.
Like she, she, she had like a quite a challenging child and
she, she left, she got kicked out of home at 15, like she was
living in a squat. You know, she, she had no kind
of rules and regulations where with us, she was really strict.
Like we had to respect her. So she taught me the
fundamentals, like how to, you know, how to respect women.
She, she wouldn't just let us bring girls home.
She was like, she really, I don't know.
I just learnt the values of like being respectful to, to women
and, and girlfriends, and that really came from her.
So like, don't, don't feel like you.
If there's not a role medal, your, your boys can't still end
up really kind and loving because me and my brothers have
got three. We're one of three boys.
You know, we're all, we're all good partners.
We all respect our women. We love our girlfriends and our
wives and stuff. So it's like, it's not you can,
there's, there's hope in that this.
You can be positive about that. Like don't feel like you're,
you're destined to a child that's going to be disrespectful
to women and stuff because they haven't got a male role model.
I think the mum has a really influential role in that, you
know, to play. Lovely to hear you RTK that.
Let's talk about your relationship with food and body
image. So you've spoken about having
issues with with food and and a new relationship with your body.
When did that start? Was that in your teenage life?
What, what part of your life did that kind of start at?
So obviously growing up as a kid, you earn your own benefits.
Like there's not a lot of money in the house.
So the food, the quality of the food we were eating wasn't
great. You know, my mum was also
uneducated on nutrition and cooking because she didn't, she
wasn't taught these things. So I had a probably, you know,
I'd say 90% ultra processed food diet.
There wasn't much fruit and veg. You know, it was very much like,
you know, ready meals, frozen meals, lots of snacks and crisp
and chocolate and sunny delight, all those things in the 80s and
90s, you know, like frozen crispy pancakes, potato waffles,
all these things that, you know, tasted great, but I was pretty
much running on the sugar. So, yeah, I'm sure that I had a
knowing now about nutrition. I'm sure that had an effect on
my my focus and concentration at school and my kind of energy per
SE. But you know, I, I just, I was
never happy with my body because I was really, really slim and
skinny as a kid. And like, you know, when
something hurts your feelings, people use it against you.
So when my brother used to call me skinny or skinny legs, it
was, it would really hurt my feelings.
So I had this complex that I was skinnier than everyone else and
that I had no muscle. And so I definitely had this
feeling of like insecurity about my body.
So as soon as I got my first job at 15, when I was working in
Wilkinson's in Epsom, you know, I got a gym membership, went to,
went to the local homes place and was like every day after
school gonna lift weights, trying to change my physique.
But I was doing it for mental health too.
But I didn't know at the time because obviously I was draw.
I was driven by the idea of changing my body image.
But actually what was going on really was an emotional stress
relief. And it was dealing with the, the
anger and resentment I was experiencing because at that
point as a teenager, I was so fed up with my dad relapsing
over and over again that it really started to me off.
And so I used exercise as a, as a therapy.
It was my therapy and essentially so, yeah, I just
obviously always had an image, you know, thing of my body
image. And but also knowing that
exercise to me is more than just changing my physical external
self. It's actually about my mood, my
energy, my stress levels, my optimism for things.
So it's been a big part of my life, the exercise thing, you
know? And for me, Joe, you're, you're
the person who actually got me back into exercise.
So I became a dad in 2015 and didn't do any exercise properly
for five years after my daughter was born.
We moved house. I was just in the thick of
parenting and and whatnot and it was locked down.
And your videos like got me back into exercise.
And now I go to the gym everyday and with gym go, I'm exercising,
I'm doing my steps. And for me it's definitely
mental as well as as physical as well.
I know there's a lot. I go to the gym and there's lots
of young boys there, which is great because health and fitness
is of course important. But I do also feel like they are
chasing maybe being influenced by the manosphere and what
they're seeing online chasing like the perfect body.
And I do get worried that they're at the gym for the wrong
reasons as well. What would you say to to parents
of young boys or young boys who are maybe exercising just to get
buff and they feel that pressure of I need to look a certain way.
What would you say to to those young people I'm.
Going to be honest with you about something right when I was
when I was at university. This is in like, you know, 2005,
I done a dissertation and I've still got it.
It's like it was, it was body dysmorphia and social physique
anxiety in young men. You know, like I was really
interested in this idea of like, why am I going to the gym?
But I still don't like my body. And why are we so driven by like
trying to physically change the way we look and this and you
know, that's back in the day when all you had was like men's
health and Men's Fitness, right? And it even today, it feels so
apartment today that I did that because as a 40 year old today,
I would say my self-confidence around my body is probably the
lowest it's ever been because of social media, right?
Because I, but now if you, if you look at one physique like,
and my, my Instagram explorer page is a lot of like really
fit, ripped musty guys, right? And what has happened is it's
slowly but surely like kind of walked my view of like what a
man's body should look like. And you know, the fact is most
of them are going to be using peptides, growth hormones,
steroids, anabolic stuff, you know, so this is not a realistic
physique. But because I've been lift,
honestly, if I told you how hard I've trained and how much food
I've eaten over the last 20 years and my body doesn't look
much different to when I was 18, right?
But you can get these guys now within the space of 12 months,
you know, doing certain performance enhancing drugs and
their, their body looks ridiculous, like they look
unbelievable. You know, they're ripped, their
shoulders are massive. And it's most I can, I'm
starting to understand now that it's not natural.
But when you're seeing that every single day, it really, you
start to compare yourself, you can't help it.
So I'd be really cautious about, you know, young children being
exposed to social media and you know, same for girls, right?
And, and female physics is beautiful fitness models and
that's why it's happening to me. I'm 40 years old like, and I
understand the fitness industry, but so many people just think
it's Natalie think take your protein and creatine, you know,
have a protein shake and have the creatine and you're going to
suddenly look at that. But it's, it's just, it's just
so difficult to build muscle that it's just a real kind of
walked view and you get this dysmorphia around like your body
and what you should be looking like.
And, and it is, it's, it's really prevalent because social
media now, once you look at one video, one guy that's ripped up
and talking about Retta true tide or growth hormone and
testosterone that week, all your, all you're going to be
served because the algorithm like sticks onto you so quickly
is this message of, well, everyone's doing growth hormone,
everyone's doing peptides, everyone's doing this stuff.
And you start to think like, I'm never going to look like that
unless I'm wanting to do that. And then obviously people do
get, I've never gone down that path.
But young people are getting drawn into taking these
substances before their bodies are fully developed.
And it's a massive issue definitely because the people
that use it are so they're so evangelical about it, like, Oh
my God, look at this. I'm on this cycle.
My body's completely transformed.
Click the link or DM me to get the, you know, whatever the, the
contact to these, to these supplements and things.
And it's most people are just selling like fitness plans and
supplements, but really they're doing it unnaturally.
So yeah, it's a big issue right now facing young men, I would
say. Do you also think we can take
fitness a bit too far in that? Like I have a 12 year old and a
10 year old son, two boys, and my 12 year old is obsessed with
the gym. Like he wants to go to the gym
all the time. And I said to him the other day,
like, I'm glad that you're into fitness.
I really like it. But you also need to go out when
you're a bit older and have fun. Like I do both like go out,
drink a bit, fall over, you know, I'll come and pick you up,
but also be be healthy and go to the gym.
And it seems to me lots of kids now don't do the fun bit.
They don't go out and get drunk and fall over like we did when
we were younger. They're just obsessed with going
to the gym constantly. And sometimes I think, like, I
withdraw from talking about fitness a bit to my kids because
I feel like they're getting so much pressure externally on
fitness that actually it could mean that they miss out on so
much fun. Like my formative years, all the
things I remembered that were fun when I was younger were me
going out with friends and bonding and community and, and
getting drunk and falling over and doing the silly things that
kids do. And so, yeah, so I sometimes
bear away from talking about fitness to my kids.
Do you think sometimes we maybe there's too much talk about
fitness? Yeah, because I, it's hard for
me to comment on that because I haven't got teenagers yet, you
know, and all of my friends, we've all got sort of like 5678
year old kids. So we're not at that stage where
like I can have conversations like how they doing with school
and fitness or what are they like socialising?
So, but I know there's a massive cultural shift like with
nightclubs closing with, you know, there's like saunas with
raves in there's like, you know, lot of lot of you know, people
like celebrating that, you know, not drinking a sobriety, which
is a positive thing because you know, alcohol.
I obviously I wasn't a big drinker, but I did used to have
a night out. I would go out drinking, but I
think people were just more aware of like the impact on
their mental health. And so there's obviously like, I
mean, there's sobriety influencers, right?
There's there's there's zero free beers and alcohols and
things. So I think there's a massive
shift in that Gen. Z, especially Gen.
Z, like they'll go to a gig and a concert the minute the last
song's played, they just walk out so that these venues aren't
selling beer and people aren't like part until 2:00 in the
morning. But I, you know, with my kids,
I'm always trying to make it fun.
So we don't have structured like fitness classes.
I'm like, come, we're going to, it's more like let's go on a
bike ride. Let's do some, you know, hide
and seek in the garden. Let's do some pad work and have
a little bit of fun. But it's always like multi
sport. So like one minute we'll say
let's go to the park and we take our basketball, football and our
skates and our skateboard. And so I'm just trying to give
them a chance to experience movement.
But I mean, and you know, none of it's competitive, right?
None of my kids, they do, they do clubs and things, but it's
really for fun. But I don't know.
Yeah, of course, you, you, you can be too extreme of anything.
But I, you look at me and think, oh, you're addicted to exercise.
And it's, it's a negative thing. But I've always just loved it.
And it's been such an easy natural thing for me to do.
Like it's just in my DNA. It's such a default setting that
when I wake up, whether I'm in a good mood or a bad mood or
whatever I'm feeling, I do a little bit of exercise and it
shifts, it shifts my day and makes me feel so positive.
So I think it depends what sort of your personality type is.
But if you are consuming lots of social media and seeing lots of
images of physiques and supplements and, you know,
people doing steroids, it's going to be, and you're young,
161718 year old guy, you're going to be influenced by these
things a lot more. And so, yeah, you've got, I
suppose, have to keep having the conversations and.
And keep supporting them and and guide them and asking them, you
know, what is it? What's driving you to go to the
gym? Like is it about your health?
Or is it you know about your your mental health or your body
and just have like those open conversations Then you might get
to more positive place of it. Yeah, I like that.
Yeah. And I think you're a great male
role model, by the way. I don't think that you're
addicted to exercise and it's bad.
Oh, thank you. And I'm glad to say that.
I just think everyone, every look, every kids, so different.
Every teenage is going to have their own little view on
exercise. And I don't know, I'll be more.
I'll be so much happier with my kids.
We're into exercise and if they weren't as them to really like,
you know, struggle and see them struggling.
Because I think when you're active, you just have a much
better life, right? Simple as that.
You just have an easier life, less stress, and you feel your
body moves better. So overall, it's more positive
than negative. I think that kids are exercising
and getting to the gym and stuff.
Yeah. And as Jody said, I think you
are probably like the example of someone who represents us in
such a healthy way because I never look at your content or
your videos and think, oh, I need to get buff.
It's more about health and well-being, and it's more about.
What you saying about you saying I've got a little muscle?
Look, I can't tell you how strong am I?
I can do pull ups, right with 20 kilograms wrapped around my
waist. I'm really strong, but my body,
I never build muscle and I eat loads of calories, loads of
protein. This is the thing that building
muscles really, really hard. So when you see these 18 year
olds that were these amazing physiques, massive arm, like
there's no way it's natural. Do you know what I mean?
It's really, really misleading. Really.
Yeah, 100%. But you're, you're one of the,
the good, the good ones. I would say I'd love for my
children when they're old enough to watch your content.
I have a 10 year old and three-year old, so I'll be
directing them to your YouTube channel when they're old enough.
I guess the big conversation about male role models and, and
especially visible men in the media, we've had so much
conversation about are there good men in the UK?
Are there visible male role models, people that we can look
to in the media? And you are one of those.
How consciously do you feel about that in regards to do you
feel like when you're doing your content, when you're on socials
or just when you're going around in your life, are you aware of
the impacts that you have on young people?
Do you consciously think about that on your day-to-day basis?
And do you think we need more visible male role models to
actually be out there talking more openly like you do?
Well, thank you for for saying that you think my role model and
a positive energy. I do want to be that guy.
I want to be a positive, you know, run one in terms of
exercise and nutrition. But as a parent, you know, as a
parent, it's hard being a parent.
You know, it's hard being a good parent and a patient parent and
with all the stress of what's going on.
So, you know, things I share, I always do it from a point of
life. Can I help someone?
Can I because I don't ever want to be that guy that's putting
other people down on making them feel like they're less than or
not good enough as a parent, because I know the challenges of
of being a parent. It's not easy.
So I try to sort of inspire through my content, but I don't
overthink it. You know, I don't think, Oh,
here's a strategy for, you know, getting kids eating better.
Like I just had kids along the way.
I had to learn to wean and I did a weaning book and that that
book really helped lots of people get their children onto
some some healthy food. And obviously now with my
animation, I'm doing a series of CBeebies and YouTube is called
activate. It's a, it's an animated work.
I see it's for kids. Your little 3 year old will love
it. And I don't overthink it.
I just think of different ways I share the message.
Like this is an example. This podcast is another way of
talking about the things I love. It might be a documentary.
It might be like the ultra processed food documentary.
There's different things I do, but it's all gearing towards the
same thing, which is getting families and and kids and adults
exercising, moving, cooking and eating healthier food and and
doing those things consistently because I do believe that is the
most impactful thing on someone's health and well-being.
But yeah, I have AI definitely have a responsibility and I'm
aware that things I say, you know, can impact people
positively. But you know, something you say
can also get taken out of context and then you get and
you've, you've done the opposite of what you're trying to
achieve. So yeah, you just got to be
mindful of the people. People do trust you.
And that that authenticity has taken so many years to build up.
But what it does allow me, it allows me to stay really focused
on the task and the mission rather than getting drawn into
like, you know, selling, I don't know, I don't believe, you know,
partnering with like a fast food chain or something.
You know, I just have to stick to what I'm good at and really
focus on it. And it's really given me that
longevity in my career. Like, I'm still going like 14
years later. I'm still building an audience.
I'm still engaging people. But yeah, I, I'm really, I'm
really passionate about inspiring people.
And I hope that I'm doing that, you know, even after all these
years. Yeah, so we're not going to see
a Joe Wixon Burger King collaboration anytime soon, is
that what you're saying? What you're.
Saying no, I haven't eaten. I haven't eaten a McDonald's or
Burger King for years. I used to love a sausage named
Mcmuffin though. On the way, on the way to my
boot camp, I'd do my boot camp. And so after my boot camp, I'd
go down 7 Mcdonald'd have a sausage named Mcmuffin.
But now them days are over now. Yeah, yeah, I was like that.
And my youngest started going to McDonald's and I relapsed.
But I can do better. I'm going to do better.
So Joe, you're a dad. You've got 4 kids.
How old your children? So I've got a girl who's 7A
little boy who's six, another goes 3 and then a boy who's 1.
So yeah, we're right in the thick of it.
It's chaos. This is the quietest you'll ever
hear in my house because they've all, they've all gone Well, my
mum, actually my mum's taken my kids to Butlins today.
And I love as a kid, like that was our holiday.
We'd go camping on the South of France.
We go to Butlins. So she's taking my two older
kids to Butlins for four days. And then I've just got the two
babies with Rosie this this week.
So it'll be nice because I can get the 2 little ones to bed and
hopefully have like an hour or two to relax in the evening.
Because when you put in all four down, it takes like 2 hours and
sometimes they're still awake at half nine.
You're like, Oh my God, how are you not sleeping?
I've just read you 3 books, go to bed.
So a lot of my work is around helping dads to balance their
career and also being an active dad.
We have a program called Parenting Out Loud, a workplace
culture change program. You've got 4 kids and obviously
a busy career as well. How do you find the balance of
homeschooling children being active, parent being equal,
parent also being Joe Wicks as well?
Well, I'm not going to pretend the homeschooling thing is a
doddle when it's just walk in the park because it's really
not. It's a proper challenge and it's
a commitment we've made, but it's not easy.
It's stressful, put it that way. But I'm I'm, you know, I'm
really blessed that you know, my career.
If you think about it from the very start, like I was living in
a flat in Surbiton with an iPhone framed food in the pan
built on Instagram following and that built that lean and 15
business, obviously. And then obviously the the
fitness stuff came later. But I'm so blessed in the sense
that I'm not ATV celebrity where I have to go off doing like
weeks of filming documentaries and long days out the office,
like my office is like my office is here.
So I've got my kitchen for cooking.
I film workers in the garden or workers in the living room.
I I move stuff out the way and we'll do it in one of the
bedrooms. And so this is my office.
So I'm really blessed. I get to be around.
So even if I've got a busy day on, like I can still get an hour
with the kids or half an hour here, a little bits throughout
the day. So that has that's good.
That's good and bad because it's really hard sometimes to
separate between am I being a dad now?
Am I working? And they don't really get that.
So when they come up to me like, oh, can we play the guitar?
Can we build Lego? I'm like, and I don't, I don't
want to say no, but something like, listen up right now.
I'm in my office. I've got to do some work.
And sometimes they'll get involved in the cooking stuff.
But you know, I think I'm, I'm just, and I've thought of all
the things I'm, I'm grateful for is the fact that I've been able
to build a digital business where I can take them along for
the journey. I, I, I really think I would
have struggled being ATV celebrity, sort of, you know,
filming internationally, going around the world and not taking
my kids with me because I am at my happiest when I'm with them.
So I've managed to sort of integrate them into my world and
they're part of my, you know, my part of my, I suppose my social
media presence is now with them. And, you know, I'm really
blessed and grateful that I've got that time because I really
know that the most important thing right now for me is time
with my kids. Because this moment, like, you
know, like when they get to a certain age, we're going to miss
this, this moment that we're in now, these earlier years, that
these are the most magical years where you feel like you, you
really can influence them and you can be their best friend and
they love it. And so that's one of the reasons
we homeschool. Like I've got nothing against
the school system. I think schools are amazing.
Like I love teachers and I would have been a teacher if I wasn't
the body coach. But you know, I just want to
spend more time with them. So I've sort of designed my life
in a way to be with them as much as possible.
You know, when I do go and do a trip, it's only maybe two or
three days. I'm not away for that long when
I do travel. And, and because of that, we've
been able to do the home schooling together.
But I think if, if I wasn't involved in that sense, I don't
think Rosie wouldn't, we wouldn't have been, we wouldn't
have been homeschooling because it's just too hard.
But I don't know. I mean, some days I feel like
I'm doing, I'm a really great dad and I'm really patient.
Other days I feel like I showered at the kids today and
I'm not my best self, but I acknowledge that and I apologise
and I say, look, I'm really sorry.
I shouted, I'm really sorry, you know, and I, I think that's a
really important thing to teach the kids that it's OK to
sometimes lose control a little bit.
But as long as you acknowledge it and you apologise, then you
can demonstrate that, you know, like you can role model in a way
that you can, you can sort of learn from that.
And yeah, I'm really conscious of that as well.
Yeah, we've got lots of parents that will be listening that
either homeschool their children or are considering homeschooling
their children. As a homeschooling parent, what
tips would you give them? What would you say, 'cause I
think lots of parents thinking about doing it would think, God,
I haven't got all the things that my kids need within me and
they'll be thinking, what would I do with them all day?
How would I keep them occupied? So what do you do with your
kids? So the little ones we can
obviously at the moment discount because they're still just
exploring the world, right? So the three-year old and the
one year old, they're just, they're just the troublemakers
who just trash the house. So they destroy everything like
this. These boxes of rubbers and
pencils will be on the floor. So that's, that's the biggest
challenge, which is trying to sit and do concentrated focus
well with the older 2, But you know, once they're napping or
they're chilling in front of the TV for a bit, then we can get
sit down with the older 2. But the most important thing
today is you're not trying to, you're not trying to replicate
school, You're not trying to be a school where you're doing like
5-6 hours or whatever it is of learning.
You're not, you're not going to be able to do that because it's
really hard in, in in a home environment and also with
concentration things. So you've got to be much more
flexible with it. We learn in the car, we learn on
the way to, you know, at the park where every day is a
learning day, weekend, summer. There's no like half term.
We stop learning. It's just constantly learning
throughout the year. So I'm amazed at how much they
can learn when you just do focused, concentrated, you know,
it might just be 15 minutes of reading or 15 minutes that we're
doing this thing at the moment. We do like creative writing.
We just write a little story. But what I've learned is that my
kids are only good at the guitar because I've sat with them.
They're only good at reading because I've sat with them.
They're only good at reading because I've write them, because
I'm sitting there with them. If I walk away, nothing gets
done. Literally, they'll just write a
sentence or they get all stressed out and I'm like, OK,
I'm going to help you with the sentence opening the title.
And I sort of send them on their way.
And it's a skill like the, the creative writing their stories,
you know, they were barely writing a paragraph.
Now they're just writing one little page like we do like a
start, middle and end. And I just, it's a skill, right?
So you've got to just you've got to decide what you want to
basically download into your child's brain.
Now, what do you value? For me, it's like life skills.
It's cookie. It's Cookie.
And it's, you know, it's, it's staying active.
It's it's reading and obviously writing.
We don't have much, much screen time.
Like we print out all these, you know, little things from like
Twinkle and even like, you know, I've got these, I might remember
these in school that, you know, So we're still using like things
you've used in school, the old CGP books.
But you've got to be flexible with it.
And you've got to have, you've got to understand that some days
you're going to feel like I've taught my kids so much today I'm
really happy I've done so well. And other days you go, God,
they've just been running riot around the house and they've
just been playing all day, you know.
But yeah, that's something that you've just got to kind of
accept that everyday's different.
But I am, I am. I don't need to be honest.
I don't know how smart they are because I've got nothing to
compare them to. You know, I don't know.
I don't know if they're behind or ahead or on on target.
But with, with homeschooling, you don't need to follow a
curriculum. You, you just as long as they're
learning and you keep a track of what you're doing.
This is another example. This is Indie's little book,
right? Indie's recipe book.
So she writes it, you know, we might cook a recipe.
So this is like cauliflower cheese muffins and that's it for
the day we made the muffins. She wrote it down.
That's that's a lesson, right? Because imagine, imagine if you
do one recipe a week by the end of the year, like she's going to
be able to cook. That's a really important thing.
So it just depends what you're passionate about.
Like depends what you want, want your child to learn really.
And it's, I love it, but it's stressful and it's everyday
there's a little bit of a conflict, you know, it's like,
come on, we're doing this and this.
It's not always smooth sailing. Yeah, but do you think you'll
continue to do it in secondary school?
You'll just do it forever. Yeah, we don't know.
I mean, we we've only just really like this year tapped
into the home school community at the home Ed community.
So they'll have meet ups. You might, there might be like
a, a meet up in a park or they'll go to Whipstage Zoo and
all the kids meet and they they can make friends there.
And obviously my kids do, they do like football club and they
do stage coaching things and gymnastics.
So they're doing their socialising around that.
But I don't know, I can't see why I would put them into school
because it works for us now. But at the same time, if they
really said, like I really want to experience school, like I
don't want to not, I don't want to be home schooled forever.
I'm I wouldn't deprive them that.
I would say, all right, give it a go, see how you feel, see how
you find it and let them make a decision.
But at the moment at these young, especially primary school
years, I think try it, try it until the end of primary school
and then maybe if they want to go in secondary school.
But again, they don't really mention it.
We interviewed Caitlin Moran on her and she was homeschooled and
she talks about how her and her siblings, I think she has six
brothers and sisters. They, their parents didn't, they
just couldn't be bothered to take them to school.
That's why they homeschooled them.
They couldn't be bothered to do the school run in the morning so
they just left them to run Ferrell and they said they just
messed about for about 3 or 4 months playing games on the
computers and then they started teaching themselves.
And then her oldest brother went to Oxford and got like a first
and and they weren't home educated as such.
They were just left to their own devices with a bunch of books
and they just ended up teaching themselves.
It was self-directed. I love Kate and Rania.
She, she also became a music journalist.
Actually, she like got into music and, you know, became a
writer, a writer, wasn't she? And she, that's the thing that
if you, what you'll see about your children is that they have
a chance to like, do what they love.
So my boy now Molly nice to me, you know, I was having to really
push him in the guitar music and the piano.
And now like he runs in the house and he'll run up to the
piano any place like 1020 minutes at a time.
But he's found something he loves.
He's my where's my girl indie. Like I really have to like sit
adventures on the end to it. But when you're at school,
you're obviously doing so many different things.
But at home school, if you are going to try home schooling, if
your kids really into writing are really into like, let them
have more time than that because they could become an expert or
an amazing, you know, writer or journalist, or they can be an
amazing musician if they get the chance to kind of do what they
love. And that that is that what I'm
saying. My little girl Lindy, so she is
obsessive like acrobats and gymnastics.
She just can't stop doing like back bends and walkovers and
like, you know, cartwords and things.
So it's like that's PE, like that's your sport.
I'm not going to force you to come and play football in the
garden. If you want to do gymnastics,
just roll around in the living room and do that.
It's just that freedom of obviously each child slightly
different and they can have their own sort of learning
technique and style really. Whereas at school it's very
you've got to fit into a certain box.
Sometimes it feels. My eldest is at secondary school
now and there are like 2000 kids at his secondary school.
So the teachers just call him boy.
They don't know his name. And he is, you know, it's very,
you must do English and you must do it this way.
And you, you know, will only learn one instrument.
And it is this instrument. And there's no opportunity for
him to try the things or to work more on the subjects that he
really enjoys. It's Yeah, I just give.
It a go then maybe give it a go if you can.
Maybe try it for a year? I have not got the patience for
home schooling at all. I'm far too selfish.
It is hard. You don't need it's, it's
testing your patience. But you know, like you said,
like you can get to get to when with it.
If they can read and, and they can study something they love,
then they can be more independent.
But yeah, I'm, I'm obviously really for it at the moment, but
ask me again in a few years when they're old and I'm trying to
teach them things I can't get my head around and I'm like, oh,
this is too hard to get get back to school.
Yeah, fatherhood is massive. You know, it's a massive
transformation for men. How would you say becoming a dad
has changed you? Your outlook on life, Your
priorities your your world view on on life.
So I had my first kid when I was 32 and I always thought I'd be a
young dad, but I actually, you know, in my head, I'll be like a
dad like 2526, but I, I kind of delayed it a little bit.
But then when I had my first little girl, like I just found
this real such sense of peace straight away like that.
This is really what life for me was about, like creating a
family and having that stability because I like that as a kid,
you know, I really, I felt loved.
I always felt loved. But it was just the instability
of like knowing that it could just all be overall be just
completely torn apart if my dad started relapsing and using
again or he was kicked out and stuff.
So yeah, it gave me like this sense of like I finally got
saying that no one can take off me.
This is my family now and I've got something I can look after
and I just have a lot of love to give.
So I just, I love this little girl so much and obviously I've
actually got 4 kids and it still doesn't feel like enough.
I don't know how or why, but I'm thinking when am I going to go
like this is enough kids for me. This feels like I've got enough.
I still feel like there's one more do you know what I mean?
Which is mad. But I just love, I really love
being a dad, love of everything I've achieved in life, you know,
being a good parent and being present and being like a good
because I am in a sense, I'm a parent, but I'm a teacher.
I love teaching my kids, whether it's a sport or it's cooking or
an instrument, anything like I get a real buzz from it because
I know I'm I'm creating the future generation of like just
nice little people to walk around in in the in the world
and be kind to other people. But it made me more, I suppose I
don't know about more ambitious, but more kind of like driven to
like protect this family and look after this family, not just
financially, but just some like a stability point of view.
Like I don't want to be someone that when things get tough or if
me and Rosie are arguing or whatever like that, I'm just
going to walk away and abandoned them.
Because that's how I felt my dad was that when things got tough,
you'd just often be gone. And you know, because of that, I
want to be a faithful husband, loyal husband.
I want to be with my kids and my wife and I want to be around.
So it's definitely, it's definitely given me like
everything I wanted. Basically, if you ask me what
makes me my happiest, it's not, you know, book sales and YouTube
subscribers. And it's really like my family
is what really makes me happy. That's my foundations.
Everything else I do is amazing and I love it.
But it's that family unit and I'm really my happiest when it's
just me and the kids. I'm not on my phone.
I'm with them, I'm with Rosie, and that's kind of what I'm
chasing. I want more of that.
So I'm thinking, how can I get more of that, more time with
them, more freedom? Is going to the US trying to
break America going to do that? Is going to film a documentary
for six months in another country?
Like, do you know what I mean? I only really do the things that
give me more of that more time with them.
That's amazing to hear, you know, seriously, because I think
sometimes we're just chasing more success, more money, a
bigger house, more Youtubers, YouTube subscribers and stuff
like that. And it's just to hear you say
actually happiness is in my family.
Like that is so, so, so powerful.
So you have 4 kids. What kind of people do you do
you want them to be? What kind of like behaviours
would you love to see them displaying when they are older?
What would give you joy in terms of the kind of people they
become? Well, I've got a lovely picture
up here on the wall because I interviewed him for my podcast.
It's, you know, them, the boy, the fox, the mole and the horse,
and it says what what do you want to be when you grow up?
Kind said the boy Indian Mali always be kind to each other.
Love Charlie. So he he he gave us that as a
gift and that's it. That's it sums it up for me.
Like I don't care about of course I care about being
academically intelligent and stuff.
But if they're kind natured and they're generous and they're
sharing. And another thing that's really
important to me is that thing of like thinking about other
people, like just because you're happy and you're set doesn't
mean you have to stop there. You can actually use your time
and your energy to help other people as well.
And, and like for me, generosity is something that isn't forced.
It's so natural. And my little boy Molly, he's
exactly the same. I see it in him, like when it's
when it's like sharing something or giving his last bit of fruit
or last bit of chocolate. Boom.
He hands it over that thinking, my other girl, she finds it a
bit harder and it's like it's forced.
And so I'm trying to teach her like, look.
When Marley's giving you that piece of thing, he's giving it
to you because it makes him feel good.
Tap into that. You know, when you give, you
feel good when you help you feel good.
Like it's that you're serving other people.
So that's that's one of the most the fundamental thing.
I believe in that, not just having the selfish mindset like,
well, I'm good, I've got my food, I'm sweet, I'm good.
I don't need to think about anyone else.
Actually, sometimes when you share that meal or share that
gift with someone else, then you're then you're like going to
be feeling so much happier. You know, that's a community for
kind of mindset, You know, that we've lost obviously some time
with digital and even with within our family, sometimes we
just think, well, we're just not connected like we once were.
So it's that actually I'm all I'm always thinking about my
family, trying to build closeness and relationships and
and kind of memories together. Like my nan.
She's 86. She's come around tonight after
this today she's coming for a sleepover, not just because I
want to see her, but I want her to have a relationship with my
with my kids. I want my kids to remember their
Nan. So once a week or once every two
weeks, she comes in as a sleepover and like, it's, it's
amazing like that. That's that's to me is so
important. I have this fear that I'm going
to regret not spending enough time with people.
So especially my mum and dad, like who are getting older and
my nan, like I want to know that when they passed away, if it was
like that overnight, I can say, you know what, I had a really
good relationship with them. I looked after them.
I didn't leave them. My kids know them.
You know, these are the things that I really, really value.
So I'm always saying to my kids that look out for other people
and think about how they're feeling when they're on their
own or they're having a tough time.
That's really the key for me, that the key element of
someone's personality that's going to transcend and make you
have a happier life, I think. That's really, really beautiful
to hear you say that. I think everyone needs to listen
to that. And again, someone in your
position saying that is so powerful.
So thank you. This is to Be a Boy where we we
talk a lot about the plight of boys, the joy but also sometimes
the struggle of raising a boy in today's world.
You mentioned we don't have the community that we had before.
You may have seen the new Louis through documentary around the
manosphere. There are so many online
influences and economic climate is really difficult.
Lack of opportunities, lack of funding, preferred spaces in
youth clubs. Big question, but what would you
like to see society do differently to help raise young
boys into real, healthy young men?
I think, you know, it's a big question.
I think I think it starts at home, right?
I think it is within the family unit.
Like it's trying to, you know, communicate with your kids and
you know, have that open dialogue and let your kids be
emotional. Let them get stressed, let them
have a cry. You know, try not to like
suppress that because I think as boys and even something I've
been giving someone like stop crying, stop crying.
Actually, no, don't say that. Like let him have his cry and
then we can have a talk in a moment.
Let him get it all out sort of thing.
I suppose that default of like stop whinging, stop crying and
start there's a reason he's crying.
Like let him kind of process that emotion and then you can
learn to, I suppose, regulate and not suppress those emotions.
But you know, I'm very sensitive and I see it in my kids.
They're also very sensitive. And so I think maybe that is
something that is is modeled, but also is in their nature as
well. But I think I just think talking
is the most powerful thing, right?
Talking to a child about how they feel, talking to them about
their their body image, you know, are they watching things
on their phone or are they consuming things that have
affected their view on the world and trying to get it out before
it bottles up inside them sort of thing.
I think that's a big issue facing young people that they're
consuming stuff and being influenced by people.
That documentary was was really, really eye open.
Was it because you realise the impact it's having on the
people, but it's all just clicks for clicks to make money.
Like, and they're just 1% of people that are like monetising
that type of content. But actually, it's really
important that you, you help your children understand that
the stuff they consume, it literally effects them forever.
Like if you're watching, if you're watching things at a
young age, that affects yourself, confidence in your
body, for example, you have it for life.
And so like, you know, trying to, I know it's hard with phones
because it's like so hard to monitor it, isn't it?
I'm not at that point yet where my kids have got screens and
phones and stuff. So I'm not, I'm not to deal with
that like challenge in itself, but I think it starts at home.
And then obviously schools are another big influence in that I
don't know what the government are going to do.
I mean, the tech companies are so powerful and they try to do
this new social media ban on the sixteens and they all just said
no, right? I don't know why can't get my
head around that. But I think there's an awareness
now with parents that like we know that we can't just offload
our parents into our iPads and iPhones and that we need to be
more present in our lives. So I think there will be a kind
of a sort of revolution towards like going back to more screen
free childhoods, you know, getting kids out playing again
and getting them socialising because but these are the things
that are important for your development.
You know, you can't, you can't get it all from a screen and
from an iPhone and a smart device.
But yeah, I think I think just being, being a loving parent is
probably the most important thing.
Like that's like I said, my mum and dad had their issues and it
was crazy what's going on in their heads, but they loved us
unconditionally. And that is why I'm here today
because if I hadn't had that love, I would have probably
ended up with some other addiction.
I would have probably ended up numbing myself through
something, you know? So I think just loving your kids
and being there for them is the most powerful thing you can do
for them. What do you think about the
paternity leave system in the UK?
Because we have the worst paternity benefit in Europe.
Most dads take two weeks off when their child is born.
One in four don't take any time off at all because they can't
afford it. And Elliot and I have been doing
a big push for the last few years to try and potentially
have increased to six weeks at 90% of salary, which we think is
the bare minimum it should be. Do you agree with that?
Yeah, of course. Listen, it's horrific that
people have to go back to like work.
My my little brother's a landscape garden.
He's self-employed, you know, he had a few weeks off, but he's,
you know, he's back again. And it's just this thing of like
at a time when you want to be with your child bonding or
supporting your partner through that.
Like, you know, you get you get torn apart, the family's getting
stretched apart, right. Because now both parents haven't
to work. Both parents haven't to like
dropped their kids off in into nursery and childcare to get to
work. They're even like teachers and
things and people that like should have, should have time to
be with their children. It's just, it's just, it's such
a big challenge. I don't know what the answer is.
But of course, I, you know, look at Scandinavian countries, they
get like a year, right? I think the men get a year, the
women get a year something they can take it whenever they want.
Like it's such an important formative time as well for like
the bonding and, you know, to, to be there.
But obviously the financial pressures right now of life, of
cost of living, you know, with the increase in heat and gas,
electricity, all these things, it's like it's, it's not easy
to, you can't just sort of fix it right away.
It's going to be a progressive thing, isn't it?
And the money comes from somewhere, like is it the
employers or is it the government, that kind of fun,
that sort of stuff. Would be the government.
It's currently the government. So the government pay £182 a
week for two weeks when you take maternity leave.
And it's maternity leave, yeah, which is pittance obviously.
And usually the man is the main breadwinner in most families.
And maternity leave is 6 weeks at 90% of salary and then the
next seven months are paid at 182 lbs a week and then the last
three months you don't get any paid so.
So it's to have potentially the same as the current maternity
leave weight six weeks to 90%. So, but it would be paid for by
the government. So the employer has a
responsibility as well that the employer has a responsibility to
also cover some of their salary as well.
Are you talking about, are you talking about, oh, so are you
talking people that are on benefits or just anybody that's
got a job in the UK? Anybody that's got a job, so if
you're self-employed and you're a man in the UK, you get no
right to any paternity benefit whatsoever at the moment and you
only get it if you're employed. So self-employed dads tend to
just go straight back to work and then of course they're
working for themselves. So they're working really,
really hard. So they don't get a chance to
bond with their kids and they end up having mental health
issues often as a result. So we want to see potentially
levelled up to every working dad and second parent can access
paternity benefit as six weeks to 90% of salary including
kindred carers as well, you know.
People who of course no 100% agree with that and I still
think six weeks isn't enough. Is it like 6 weeks goes is in a
blink of an eye. It's the thing that it's the
system is so it's so it's set up against us, isn't it?
It's like actually at a time you should be with a child, you're
getting more pressure, more financial wire, more stress, and
then you argue with your partner and you know, you you're going
to have to work and do double shifts and get extra jobs just
to make make ends meet. And it's like it's so it's so
like it's so it's not it's not thoughtful or considerate of the
family unit, is it? And if you think like long term,
long term health and well-being of that family will depend on
like, you know, that closest as a unit and you know, it's just
affecting men and women. And it's really, I think it's
great you're doing that. You see, pushing it at a
government level, trying to get that petition in the inside and
stuff. Yeah, there's a parental leave
review that's underway at the moment and it completes in
January. So this is basically the last
chance we'll have in our lifetime to improve paternity
leave for dads. And if we don't get this passed
by January, I just don't think there'll be another opportunity.
So we're we're doing a March in April and the 18th of April.
And then we've got some of the ideas for the rest of the year
just to keep the pressure on because without the pressure,
yeah, it just falls off their agenda because it costs them
money, of course, to implement. So they'll do it.
They can not to do it. I do totally agree with you and
I think this amazing thing you're doing it if only people
in the government had more like, you know, just nurturing kind of
mindsets and just invested in this thing and thought about the
benefits it would have long term.
You know, you know, it's just so things are hard at the moment
and I'm, and again, this is like just another challenge that
people face. You know, you shouldn't have
this stress and anxiety around having a baby because, you know,
you're going to be financially in a real bad, difficult
situation for that first year, you know?
So, yeah, I hope the March goes well.
It's a really, really awesome thing.
Cheers, Joe. Well, you've been incredible.
You've been amazing. You know, we've said it so many
times that you are genuinely one of the best role models we have
here in the UK and I know that comes with a lot of pressure,
but it, you know, just being yourself, you just, you just are
yourself and that resonates so deeply with me.
I know so many people listening, it will resonate with them.
So a massive, massive thank you for your time, for sharing so
honestly, for being fantastic, for doing your work, for being a
great dad and talking to us so openly about your family.
It was amazing, beautiful to hear you speak like that.
So thank you so much. Joe Weeks, you've been
incredible. Thank you.
Thank you guys. I've loved chatting to you and
yeah, I think it's wonderful you're doing keep sharing these
positive messages. It's going to have an impact on
people's lives. So yeah, thanks again.