No, it was months before. Robert was actually crowned he
won the throne at the Battle of the Trident by personally
slaying rhaegar Targaryen. When people think of Robert
getting the throne, they think of this moment and the battle
that preceded when Catelyn sees loras Tyrell for the first time,
she thinks he could not have been more than two when Roberts.
Blue Prince rhaegar on the Trident, that's the Touchstone
moment. The Milestone point, the
decisive blow the most important hammer strike in the history of
Westeros. To be fair, we start during
Robert's rain. And of course, the story of how
the current king became king is pretty important, but even after
Robert dies, people still talk about it.
It's still very important. And we aren't even given a
mental image of Robert being crowned, the actual ceremony,
whatever it was we don't have any detail really.
You'd think it'd be kind of a big deal, not just a new king, a
new house on the throne after almost three centuries.
Sure Robert was a Targaryen cousin but it is still a new
house. Ned doesn't think of the
coronation or does anyone else who was there?
And we have several possibilities, Jaime and Cersei.
I mean, Jaime Cersei does give us a Image of marrying Robert
but not of him being crowned, maybe she wasn't even there for
it, but if she was just think about it, Davos might have been
there. He was something of a hero, or a
new figure given his switch from Life Of Crime to rescuing
Stannis. So he good chance he was there,
but he doesn't think about it either nor do characters,
without povs describe it, like Tywin or pycelle or Roose.
Bolton all of whom were likely there as well.
No, the focus Again is on these decisive moments, the battle and
the moment Robert killed rhaegar and not the moment.
It became official for Ceremony months later while the war was
full of important and compelling aspects and events worthy of
discussion and focus. This battle by itself can make
that claim the very spot where rhaegar fell became immortalized
afterwards, it got the name, the Ruby Ford, for the rubies that
fell from his crushed breastplate and people still
search for rhaegar's rubies to. Day.
But of course so much more happen there apart from Robert
versus rhaegar, many famous individuals, some who survived
some who did not and tens of thousands of nameless.
Other soldiers, we meet many characters throughout A Song of
Ice and Fire who were there or who had family, who were people
whose lives and for livelihoods depend on the outcome.
Some have visible scars or missing limbs some suffered, no
physical harm but we're never quite the same afterwards.
They gossip on the wall. That Donald Neu had forged
Roberts Warhammer quote. The one that crushed the life
from rhaegar Targaryen on the Trident.
It's even mentioned as part of the house re-entry in the
appendix of a Clash of Kings where they were the origin of
their nickname is described here.
Quote when Robert Baratheon met rhaegar Targaryen on the
Trident, the phrase did not arrive until the battle was done
and there after Lord Hoster Tully always called lord Walder.
The late Lord Frey, and Lord, osric.
Ali was of course there and was his Overlord.
Who ordered him to be there who said tragic battles that put the
continent and perhaps Humanity in the balance can't have a
little humor thrown in, right? All that and more on this
episode of history of Westeros podcast, Hello and welcome
everybody. It's another happy Sunday
another good time to be discussing A Song of Ice and
Fire. We're really narrowing it down
this time Battle episodes are something.
We've done a lot of, it's not the first time, but it has been
a while this battle particularly important and meaningful.
And as I indicated here in the intro gets name-drop quite often
hard to have a lot of discussion about battle details for this
episode. Like there's a lot surrounding
it but the actual battler. Is not a lot of detail.
We know that's true. We don't have a lot of like
troop movements and then the left surged forward under.
Yeah, we don't have that kind of stuff.
So it is a different sort of Battle Analysis, you, right?
Showing. That's a great point to make
your Kicking It Off. But also I like being able to
get really close to these certain important events.
I think maybe in the future we do one on the sack of King's
Landing which came just after or the flight to Dragonstone and
Danny and viserys heading overseas.
Little things like that where we've talked about them before
we haven't really focused in on them because there's a lot more
detail to be highlighted a lot of interesting decisions and
moments and well we'll get to that.
Sean got me. Anything special in the Cup
today, pretty standard Aang raspberry Kid protein Berry and
black raspberry sparkling. I'm using sort of in the league
of the color of my thermos. Shout-out to our good friend,
Nina AKA good Queen, Ali. Good clean Ally with one L or S.
1 1 L. Yes 1 l 1 Y 2 ends 20's to ease
but yeah 1l her latest post is pretty relevant to this one, it
talks. About how science has arguing
with her father. But oh, I love him referring to
Joffrey and how she might be able to convince the king to
make her father stay in King's Landing after his intent to
leave. But she's a little afraid of
Robert because of, you know how his Visa presented and Nina's
noticed, how a lot of this is similar to how Lianna would have
felt that the time she was in love with rhaegar apparently and
was stubborn about it and was a little afraid of Robert because
you didn't want to marry him because for different reasons
and says, is afraid of because Santa's not faced with marrying.
But still, Robert is worked into this story to which helps make
the comparison to Liana even tighter.
So check that post out as well as her other post in general.
Really good stuff and she's got a lot of takes in this episode
as well. Speaking of Nina she is our
guest next week as well to talk about hail or the Blessed
character. That's popped up quite a bit
where we get deep into his story and all the things that happened
during his Reign, some guesses, some fun, some dreams, some
comparisons, real world stuff, other In.
You got it. We'll get there if this episode
ends and you want to stay immersed.
Well this episode is going to end.
It will not go forever. We've got you covered.
Yeah, it's a big up now. What's next?
The infinite stream, we will have you covered with
suggestions for topics related. This one also, at the end, the
answer to this trivia question, which is which participant in
this battle on the side of the rebels / Robert.
Net etcetera, slew three landed nights or longer Lords of the
narrow sea witch in The Red Bull participant.
First mentions, it's such a huge part of A Song of Ice and Fire.
As I indicated in the intro, it appears in multiple povs very
early in book 1 so much of the, where are they now?
Which is when we perceive them was determined by the battle of
the tried. It not only is this Danny one,
we're about to quote, but it's one of the earliest paragraphs
in daddy one viserys had been a boy of eight when they fled
King's Landing to escape the advancing armies of the usurper,
but Daenerys had been only a quickening in her mother's womb
yet. Sometimes Danny would picture
the way it had been so often had her brother.
Told her the stories, the midnight flight, to Dragonstone.
Moonlight shimmering, on the ships Black Sails.
Her brother rhaegar battling the usurper, in the bloody water, is
the Trident and dying for the woman.
He loved. Well, that's a little bit
exaggerated. This is part of a cerasus
brooding. It's the version Danny has been
told, Robert slang rhaegar. That course, that was a big deal
that really did happen. It was a chaotic scene as
battles, tend to be in the sheer mass of men was large enough,
but for another, Robert didn't have to win against rhaegar.
Rhaegar was a really good fighter.
It could have been rhaegar who won that day.
And, you know, neither of them necessary were at full strength.
When they finally came together, they may have suffered wounds,
we know rhaegar did wound Robert during their exchange but they
may have both had a you know, damaged shoulder wounded leg who
knows nothing. That's necessarily visible or
obvious, but they may not have been at 100%.
They've been fighting prior to that moment.
Nina says it really is almost two-story like except that.
We really it really did happen that way, there was a lot more
happening in the Rebellion before the Trident and a lot
more happening than simply these two going at it.
But it's so easy to focus on this duel because it does feel
like a microcosm of the whole conflict rhaegar and Robert and
all their men around them. And the two most important,
guys, on either side, it's almost like a trial by combat
is, almost like everybody. Could have just stood back and
just let these two go out and just no one else needs to die.
Let's just have these two fight. Keep that in mind.
I'm going to make a point about that later.
Nina says for a little boy who was hearing all about the second
him that outcome of the battle would have been all too easy to
think about like a story without the complex political and
wartime context to it was a great Point.
Wake the saris doesn't have all this other detail.
He was only a child when all this happened and he didn't have
some adult to set him straight necessarily.
I don't know that Willam, Dairy was there either.
So he may not have known it all and even if he did, he might
have exaggerated maybe in the same, bitterness might have been
mixed in some of the same ways you could argue that Robert was
a heavy favorite but you know he was mad, he was enraged.
He had some false pretenses plan in his mind about what it
actually happened when rhaegar and lyanna, but we're not here
to trace out the events of them and harrenhal and all that not
too fine. Detail, a little bit of context
is important but the end result of their Saga.
So many Mysteries remain And it did clearly play a major role in
sparking, the war that led to this battle, even if it's still
filled with a lot of mystery. For example, Robert personally
because he believed rhaegar was a cruel kidnapping rapist.
I mean in pretty much any society ever real or fictional
you're supposed to take quick and definitive action when
someone does that sort of thing to your fiance and especially in
this society, when you're a big manly man who has a Warhammer
and stands six foot. Six, like everybody knows what
you're going to do with something like that happens.
Of course. Did it actually happen?
That's again, a separate question.
He certainly thought he did especially when that person's
villainous. Father just did horrible things
to your best. Friend's family, I mean, Roberts
full of motivation here. You killed my best friend's dad,
and brother, and murdered my spout.
I mean, my fiance like that's terrible, right?
We're not murder, but etcetera, a huge list of motivations, any
way you put it and in many ways, he's so he meant really saw
himself as a hero and let people saw him as that afterwards.
But And in many ways he really was but rhaegar the guy, he
killed may have been trying to save Humanity, which that's
probably more important if he was actually, right, that he was
doing that, which is another big open question that is not for
today to tackle, but is important to acknowledge worth
noting, even if he was definitively, if we found some
proof becomes clearer. Next book, rhaegar was trying to
save Humanity. Robert still doesn't know there
are no, he doesn't. He has no clue.
He didn't know that. Even when he died, no one ever
told him that. Any point?
So I doubt he even heard it to laugh at it.
Like, of course, he didn't think that.
That's ridiculous. No, I'm not even heard the idea.
Like the it was never even floated to him, probably So the
repercussions of Roberts Victory were immediate and long last
heroic Vengeance. He saw it was of course, seen in
different light by House Targaryen for one thing.
There's that bit about rhaegar, the dying for the woman he loved
which isn't particularly true. He may have truly loved Liana
and vice versa and he may have also loved his, his, actual
wife, Elia and vice versa, despite all the drama around the
but he didn't die for them again.
He was trying to save the world or something and they their
lives weren't necessarily even at stake.
I mean, it's not like Robert was going to kill Liana if he won.
So didn't know she was about to die in childbirth.
Like for all, he knew she was still alive and well, she was
still alive. But anyway, that's beside the
point. The point is a Danny thanks.
Rhaegar was a good honorable, and Noble person and in some
ways. She's right?
So there's both sides. See this in black and white and
they're both wrong to do it that way, but they're both also very
limited as to their information. They don't have the whole story
so you can see why from Danny's point.
View, Robert and his ilk could easily be perceived as
villainous. Look, what happened?
Right after they won Tywin. Fact King's Landing Elia aegon
and rainey's were brutally killed like, how's that the good
guys, right? Like from a daenerys's
perspective. Yeah, so that serves to set up
the cyclical, dynastic Bloods for Danny is thrust into from
the moment. She was born and she gets to
hear lines like this. And her first chapter, I should
kill the usurper myself. He promised I'd never killed
anyone. She killed my brother, rhaegar
and Lannister to the kingslayer for what he did to my father.
That would be most fitting Magister.
Illyrio said, Danny saw the smallest hint of a smile playing
around his full lips but her brother did not notice nodding
he pushed back a curtain and stared off into the night and
Danny knew he was fighting the battle of the tried.
Once again, of course, he's just imagining fighting.
He was not there, as we said, he was only eight when the battle
happened. And he was Nowhere near it.
But still her first chapter battle, the Trident rhaegar's
death mentioned twice in short. Order.
Soon enough we have Jon Snow's first chapter and even he refers
to the battle of the Trident while thinking about how
disappointing Robert looks. Like, that's the guy that did
that. Okay, all right, well, hmm.
I'm not some, not a pretty well, yeah.
Well, he killed your father or John so you shouldn't be too
impressed at ours first chapter as well.
It features his reunions with Robert.
Net is a man who had a represses, his memories.
Yes. It's part of the ways chapters
written but many of them come flooding back when they head
down to the Crips so he keeps it mostly to himself as is his
manner in General. Robert is pretty extroverted,
though. I sit on that.
Damnable iron chair and listened to them, complain until my mind
is numb, and my ass is raw. They all want something money,
or lands or Justice, the lies, they tell my Lords and Ladies
are no better surrounded by flatterers and fools and drive a
man to Madness. Ned half of them.
Don't dare. Tell me the Ruth the other half.
Can't find it. There are nights.
I wish we had lost at the Trident, not truly, but I
understand Med said softly, what a setup.
He's like, all right, you do understand, don't you?
All right, and in the king I'm gonna name you like.
Oh man. Yeah, he and Ned are but two of
the many characters we already know fairly.
Well Robert we've talked about a lot of ready.
We'll have little more about him but there's so many other
characters that we're going to talk about.
We're going to retrace relive. Imagine discuss the ones who No
to have been there for most of the characters there was the
biggest battle they ever fought in until perhaps the events of
the books, Maybe started to supplant that and it echoes
loudly and the current generation again.
Like I just we just read through these several examples but it
also comes up in besides Danny 1, John 1 eddard, one at R2 and
R3 at art for, finally takes a break for a few chapters until
Ned's leg, takes an actual break.
And then, yeah, then he has dreams, and it comes back, and
he's thinking about it again. It's our joy and all that stuff.
But they're just keeps coming, Ned maybe stop thinking about
it, but Santa thinks of it once brand thinks of it once, or
twice, then a Clash of Kings starts or Danny announcing that
she's naming one of her dragons thusly.
I would name them all for those, the gods have taken the green
one shall be ragel for my Valiant brother, who died on the
Green Banks. The Trident there's a lot more
examples, but I think you get the point and some of you few
more of them will pop up here and there, but let's get a
little bit more to it. But first Nina's going to
mention here that there's a good amount of inspiration, For the
battle of the Trident from the Battle of Bosworth field Battle
of Bosworth field was basically the final battle of the wars of
the Roses at least the early stages, when Richard was killed,
and that's very similar because Richard was like a bit of like a
rhaegar figure and they didn't actually fight Henry and Richard
did, they were really close to each other.
Like Nina says, within feet of each other.
It was the decisive battle. It was the battle that got
Henry, crowned King of England. And of course, And this is the
plantagenet dynasty. So there would be 300 years of
plantagenet rule, which is kind of the opposite where this
ended, 300 years of Targaryen rule, but the similarities are
there. There's even Richard, supposedly
yelling, traitors traitors, traitors as he's killed, which
red Garden to, but are, he's his father did.
So you can see some inspiration Robert, I mean, George rather
big fan of that period of History.
So anytime there's thing that seem similar there, it's a
pretty good likelihood, he's taking inspiration Sean, you
noticed a few other Actions as well there.
Yep, there was a Lord Stanley, it was ostensibly on the side of
Richard and he was there with his armies but when they started
fighting he held back and one of his sons was in Richards Retin-A
and and he threatened him, he sent a message, like I'm going
to have your son executed if you don't join a battle and he
responded got other Sons is that remind you of right is as bare
as water fresh. It's also.
But finally What happens? And I think this is key to some
other thoughts we have here, is that Richard there's details of
the battle like, how they split up into three sections and warm.
So I was outnumbered in the shape of the field and stuff,
but Richard identified Henry on the field and decided to just go
for him just to charge with his Cavalry and thought if he could
just take Henry out he might just end the whole battle which
I wonder if that's part of what rhaegar was.
I believe there's a very good chance.
You're right about that, they were data already been focusing
on Robert prior. That battle.
So it makes sense they would continue with that strategy.
But anyway, when he when he does this that's when Stanley finally
comes in and helps Henry, I'm saying because Richards been
separated from the rest of the forces he realizes.
Like, I can decide this battle at this moment.
Oh, he's trying to decide this battle.
I can decide this battle because he's trying to say.
Yeah, it's like it may also like Tywin kind of waiting till he
knows for sure how things are going to go and is swooping in
to look like make a decisive Victory there but make it very
clear what side he's on. Yeah, yeah.
So Anyway, I'm sure those parallels.
I'm sure that's in George's mind.
Another character that was in this battle is a guy named
brackenbury. Sure.
That name has got to be an inspiration for George.
And I there's all sorts of other stuff tied to that he this guy
wasn't, okay, so if you go back a little bit in history, the
thing that led Richard to its kind of convoluted at probably
get details wrong but part of what led Richard to being on.
The throne of this moment with two young boys who were in line
for Throne where honour this qualify.
Okay, and those boys as far as history knows disappeared,
there's no real solid answer. What happened to them, but they
were in a castle that brackenbury was in charge of and
and then they went missing there and so this reminds me of bran
or rickon. Hmm, like people, some people
boarded, they were killed by a gun range compared with my net.
Although we know what I stole there were two.
Oh right, yeah, there's all kinds of like, pairs of
potential princes that were so it might be responsible for
Having killed and one way. Yeah, that anyway, this is a
story called the princes in the tower.
There's also which George is also bar for the princess in the
tower. Yes.
Yeah. And he stole millions of
parallels coming from Nason one last little bit, the Nina also
brought up later on is that supposedly?
And I also wonder maybe if this could be the case for robber is
it Henry was crowned right there on the field that Richard's
Crown was found and put it right on over into Henry, right then
and Eric, so maybe that's why there's no thought or memory of
some sir. Money later.
And why is that a problem here? As Aries is cranberries Woulda
still been wearing the crown or whatever and they would have
been well I guess that's goodbye.
Yeah you're right though they may have it may have been made
of kind of made a fish like our he's now the king he's already
made his claim so with that why Larry's is still alive.
I guess they probably can't say he's King yet, but it was it was
had become almost a foregone conclusion.
Especially when Tywin jumped in and and it seems like there
would be some big Pomp and Circumstance ceremony as a
default I could see Robert being like that.
I'm not doing all that. Yeah, have a tournament might
want to fight. Now, that's speaking of jokes
like that are Eason rhaegar, and this Council, and everybody
didn't take Robert's Rebellion, very seriously at first, after
all, rhaegar was hanging out at the tower of Joy.
That's not exactly where you go. When you think there's a serious
Rebellion happening and the King's Guard were sent out to do
anything about it, they held back at King's Landing or some
of them were with rhaegar. Sure aerys, had gone way too far
with how he treated Brandon. Rick hard but it can be
resolved, right? It didn't have to come to war
well apparently not Ned, famously evaded, capture return
to the north. We see fighting quite a few
versions of this story. They were very ready to support
him though when you got home, I mean, the north stands for its
murdered Lords and they killed the Lord and his are, that's a
really big deal. Brandon was probably kind of
popular. The Lord Rickard was, I don't
know how popular he was, but he was the Stark in Winterfell.
There's nothing to indicate. He was some sort of fill into
the rest of the north so they probably did what they would.
Spec them to do, which is get ready to fight, Robert made it
back to the stormlands and started sorting things out down
there kicking butt. And John, Aaron was settling
things in the veil, because in none of these regions, except
maybe the north was it? Yeah, we're all for you.
There was definitely hold out. There were loyalists people who
stayed true to the targaryens in all these regions again, except
for the north apparently riverlands.
Yes, same thing. Not everyone was with the
Tully's, the Tully's adapt themselves.
Had a long unbroken streak of backing the targaryens dating.
back, aegon, the Conqueror because he's the one who put
them in charge and so they had stayed loyal to that for a long
time until until this, Ares replaced his hand.
Oh, and Merryweather. I'm the grounds of allowing all
this to happen. He let it get out of hand.
He's like you were too slow to do anything about it.
Are he started getting paranoid? Like maybe, he's maybe.
This guy is involved. He should have replaced himself
for allowing, okay. Now, that's, that's the right
move, right there. Sean, you guys, now, remember or
00 and Merryweather is the grandfather of Orton
Merryweather, who is the one who is married to Tatum tayna
Merriweather who is, you know, intriguing with / against?
Cersei. They're quite a bit in the
latter stages of the books, and it's good stuff, but also not
very related to this. So then are he's appointed Jon
connington who he saw his kind of a counter to her Robbie's
like, ah, you've got a storm Lord, who's young and energetic
and a great warrior. I've got a storm Lord, who's
young and energetic and a great warrior and mine has red hair.
Well that didn't help. It was an interesting play, but
it didn't work. Cottington was a little too
concerned with being a hero. He wanted to kill Robert
himself. Hmm sounds familiar.
It sounds like something you'd Just mentioned Sean, he wasn't
concerned with killing Robertson much, as doing it himself, which
is something he laments later, something that Blackheart toyne,
disabuse, him of his false memories.
Like, know you really did screw that up, Tywin would have just
burned the town and that would have been that.
And the reason it was a big mistake was cottington was in a
hurry. He was trying to stop all these
various factions from linking up into one big army, that would
have been a huge disaster. In fact it was a huge disaster
because those armies did link up connington was unable to prevent
that and that led to the battle of the Trident.
So the battle, the bells of all the skirmishes and battles.
And other things that happened prior is at least from Jon
connington perspective, arguably, even from a Mainline
perspective, it's wouldn't have happened.
If things had gone differently and here's his memory of
exactly. That 17 years had come and gone
since the battle of the Bells, get the sound of bells.
He's bringing still tied, a knot in his guts, others might claim
that the realm was lost. When Prince rhaegar fell to
Robert's Warhammer on the Trident, but the battle of the
Trident would never have been fought if the Griffin had only
slain, the Stag there in Stony cept, the bells tolled for all
of us that day for Aries and his Queen for Elia of Dorne and her
little daughter for every true man.
An honest woman in the Seven Kingdoms and for my Silver
Prince and of course he was fired and exiled.
It's a little bit melodramatic obviously and he's but he's
absolutely right. That a massive number of things
hinged on the battle, on the result of the battle of the
tried it and he was the one of the few people that could have
stopped the battle of the Trident happening the first
place. It's not something he can really
blame on other people that much. It's really just a few things
uup. Only people have the power to
change what happened here. Then it all comes back around of
course, for him with Baris and young Griff and the plot there.
But again a bit outside of the scope.
Pope of today but it is another thing that was created because
of this very specific way, the battle of the Trident went.
Meanwhile this after the battle the bells is, when while
connington is getting exiled Jon Arryn, Mary's Lysa Tully and a
tard Stark, Mary's Catelyn Tully and boom, that Alliance is
locked in and ready to go. By the time rhaegar was marching
to fight at the Battle to try it.
And he'd already condemned the targaryens, as the ruling
dynasty of Westeros Nina rights. And why is that?
Well, it's because this War began.
With tyranny Aires this, his execution of Brandon and Rick
are, there's just no justification for that.
It was not the act of a, just king of a sane King.
It violates a number of traditions and laws as well as
just pisses people off and he didn't stop there, right?
He demanded the heads of Ned and Robert which is like wait why
what did they do? So there was no real settlement
to be made. This is obviously an irrational
thing and you an understand why people would rebel against that
but rhaegar rather than saying, look my dad screwed up, he
shouldn't have done that. He's like, nope, what my we're
going to March, we're going to defeat you.
You Rose up against us, we're going to defeat you.
There's no your rebellion was just, we're going to negotiate,
their didn't seem to have been any attempts there to talk.
Maybe they were. Maybe they were already past
that point, maybe it was just not feasible.
Maybe we don't hear about that. But rhaegar's basically, by
Getting an army together and choosing to fight Robert.
He's basically saying know what we did was right, you gotta live
with it and that's that's not gonna sit well with a lot of
people is it Shawn? It's not, but I don't know if
the flip side would sit will either.
I don't know if this is totally a bad plan rigorous part, he
might still have had some intention to negotiate, but he
can do it better with one Victory under his belt, right?
If he can like it or not, get more sport of his own.
People behind this negotiation, you might have more leverage
Strawberry. Whoever in a negotiation, if you
can win one key battle, he also might have been somewhat one
formed and everything that had happened and had pressures of
words around him. I'm like, I'm not saying he was
absolutely justified in immediately riding off the
battle. Like if he had gone and killed
his own dad, like maybe that would have been more justifiable
boat. Would he now be a hero and
everyone would accept him as king, if he killed his own dad,
kingslayer and kick like what is he supposed to do?
It seems like this is the default correct thing to do.
Do and other things that maybe he could have should have done,
he still could potentially do after this, if you hadn't been
killed, like if he had won this battle, he might have been able
to do all the things we wish he had done.
You know, that makes a lot of sense.
And I my next Point here is comes from a similar angle,
which is that after winning the battle of the Bells, they were,
they were in a position to negotiate.
They look we're serious and that's what made them made the
Loyalists. Take them more seriously was oh
wow, they want a big battle here.
And now they've done these marriages and have a big army,
okay? Let's talk, but it went straight
to. Let's kill Robert as quickly as
you can. It appears to be like regular
gets an army together as quickly as possible and then goes right
for Robert, maybe it's more complicated than that, but that
seems to be a pattern. We're identifying is that just
getting rid of Robert was really just that was their way to cut
the head off the snake. This whole thing goes away and
they were more focused on that than maybe the justice of
Roberts cause or why people were upset or other things areas have
been because obviously Aries is Injustice.
Were nothing new. This was a peak of his
injustices but he had burned people to death before and done
all sorts of other awful things. This was just maybe the
culmination and to be fair it's not like if they kill Robert the
whole thing goes away because Ned and his allies are still
upset about what happened to but they no longer have a telnet.
Hey, we messed up. We're removing Aires from the
throne. I'm in charge.
Now, I'll make you hand. I wonder if especially if you
consider Like prophecy type stuff if rhaegar would have been
like look the north can be its own kingdom, you know, will give
you earn it. There's all kinds of plays that
you potentially could have made that would have ended this war,
but we didn't get a chance for that to happen.
Bottom line, I guess you could say is that it didn't have to
come down to another battle or had Robert, rig are both
survived that battle. That may have been big.
Maybe couldn't stop. After that said, okay look,
we're both strong. Let's not just Slaughter each
other, you know, you see where this is going.
We're two equally matched. Uh, so Roberts claim was
announced sometime after the battle of bells.
We don't know when it was made official but it was probably
kind of obvious before that we already know connection was
trying to specifically kill Robert before, Robert even
announced the claims. It was kind of obvious.
For one thing, Robert was such a charismatic leader for another
thing. He's a cousin to the targaryens.
So the writing on the wall is there.
If anyone was going to be king out of the group of Rebel, there
was very clearly, it didn't take his claim to make that known,
the claim just made it official I suppose.
But he didn't realize how much you hate the job after her.
He was thinking about, like, maybe they're going to make me
king before it was official, at some point, it just came up.
It realize it through the way people were talking or like it
just became up as I wonder when that moment was for him.
Personally, you know what they're going to make me King
aren't there? I'm going to be king are not
your minds a little bit of George Washington to that.
He, you know, was probably the most clearly identifiable leader
after the war for independence. But The we didn't even have a
constitution. Yeah.
It was like years later before we had an election for
President. And at the Constitutional
Convention for George Washington wore, his full military regalia
every single day. He wanted to make sure everyone
remembered that, he was the leader, you know, it wasn't, I
don't know if it would have been a given that he would win if he
wasn't at least passively campaigning for it, you know.
Yeah. So Nina points out that there is
a lot, but points to Robert that just makes it clear.
It's not just obvious, it's obvious for specific reasons.
Not just, he was wronged by what happened?
Juliana personally, although obviously Liana and the Starks
were wrong because, well, I agree with more, but clearly he
was wronged as well. And there's also just his first
notable Act of Bravery. When Gall Town, didn't rise for
Jon Arryn, when he declared called the banners, he attacked.
All towns have keep them loyal and to bring them back into the
fold and Robert was the first one over the walls and he killed
Mark Grafton personally. So it's like, whoa, this this
guy's real shows, Nina says that it quite possibly was the first
moment where Robert really started to shine and it wasn't
from a very early point and then he just continued to shine and
rise and rise and rise from then on until it was just kind of
obvious. It's something like, yep, that
must be. This is the guy But even without
that, even, without Roberts perspective or even without the
Kings stuff, the paddles huge, I mean, he's still there, still
the Revenge, they're still, you stole my fiance there.
So you killed my friend's father and brother, like all that is
still burning in him even if you take away the other stuff.
So Gathering the arms, this is an important step after the
battle the bells, of course, it couldn't just rush to King's
Landing, they had to do those marriages have the ceremony.
Even if they were rushed, they had You know, still has to be
made official and the troops have to be gathered, they have
to get their food together and decide where they're going to
go. Meanwhile, the targaryens are
doing the same thing. Like, oh, we better take this
seriously, let's get the troops together, send people out to
various regions to gather Prinsloo and Martell of Dorne,
who was in The King's Guard, was sent to Dorne to bring
dornishman Jamie notes that are he's reminded Lewin, Martel
gracelessly that he held Elia and sent him to take command of
the 10,000 dornishman coming up the kingsroad so, Ares was still
like racist towards the dornishman and treating, his
in-laws treating, his grandchildren, and his
daughter-in-law, terribly and antagonizing them.
He just kind of like the way he antagonize Tywin, when he really
shouldn't have. He just thinking that the throne
would protect him or I don't know.
It's a weird thing for paranoid guy to do but he's also not all
there. So his actions don't have to
make sense. That's the mind of a partly
insane or fully insane person doesn't have to be.
Irrational. In fact, it's distinctly not
rational. So he's kind of using melee as a
hostage here and Shawn. We talked at length about how
more Al is really important battle.
What's the level of morale you would have expect from these
dornish soldiers under a circumstance like this where the
king is demanding this and has treated Elia badly in the past
and made these racist comments like how good your think they're
Morales here? Less how the Laughing nice.
His answers better than. Yeah, you're not going to top
that with a disaster apparently. Clearly, what do we need you for
just kidding? Yes.
Yeah. That pretty much Nails it
though. Yeah.
I like, they would not be at their best, whereas the rebels
just cause like they killed his brother.
Like, that's so like easy to get behind, you know?
One of my thoughts is the probably, the average Soldier
wasn't aware of that. Like, if they would have one
speaker leaders, they went tell everyone that right?
They did theirs. They're not all like watching a
news and checking their phones to see what the king says,
right. They would only know from what
the leadership tells him and go leaders went till Men first
place, but the leaders wouldn't have good morale given that and
the soldiers, whatever they think about the king aren't
gonna have the best morale after marching hundreds of miles away
from their country, to some other, you know, they're leaving
their families and our Farms behind to go fight for some
other king that, you know, even if they don't know these
specific details, it's kind of new for the money.
Relatively you know, they have this more pride in Dorne than in
Westeros and yeah morale wouldn't have been that high in
the first place. I don't think so.
And even with that Ares was still not very trusting of them,
he still gives them the whatever the they're not sending their
best attitude of these dornishman coming into his
country, even though it's part of his country already, you
know, he's Harry's, you know, there's no accounting for this
guy really but connections forces weren't entirely
destroyed. They were aren't, there was men
here and there and it seems like John Derry and barristan selmy
were likely in charge of getting that back together because all
the other kingsguard are accounted for and someone went
and did this, we know that three of the kingsguard were at the
tower of joy and one was Jaime Lannister who never left as are.
He's kept him by his side for the same reason that he kept Ely
but its side it didn't work in either case really but it's what
he thought would work. Nina says it might have been
unconscious. Good luck for the crown at this
stage that it's two remaining King's Guard.
Members were both River Lander and storm Lander of
respectively, John Derry barristan selmy.
So that that had it was a feather in their cap for not all
the Loyalty going in one direction towards Robert or
posture Tully a respectable. There's definitely a lot of
oomph behind those two houses. And some people might choose to
be loyal with especially if barristan selmy is staying
loyal, then you know, I'm staying loyal Etc.
Things like There's proud Noble figures to stand behind even if
Aries isn't a good one. Good example, they say like well
we're yes it's now you know areas maybe not isn't it great
king but the last thing we need is to change at the top, like
the targaryens just keep it the same.
We don't need to have a new leader that who knows what
that'll be. You know, people could look
ahead to rhaegar be like, Aries. Once he's dead rhaegar.
I'll be in charge, it'll be fine.
You know, we just got to get through this.
So, Robert doing his thing in the stormlands, meanwhile,
rhaegar takes command of the new Crown lands levels there.
Actually levying new man to fight this battle.
And here is a quote the kind of refers to when you're talking
about earlier Sean about how maybe things could have gone a
little differently Gregor had put his hand on Jamie's shoulder
when this battles done. I mean to call a council changes
will be made I meant to do it long ago.
But well, it does no good to speak of Roads.
Not taken we shall talk when I return.
Those were the last words. Rhaegar Targaryen ever, spoke to
him. Outside, the gates and army had
assembled whilst another descended on the Trident, so the
prince of Dragonstone mounted up and donned his tall black home
and rode forth to his Doom, he was more right than he knew.
When the battle was done, there were changes made.
Oh, yeah. And Jamie was part of, you know,
it never clicked in my mind till just now that quote, he doesn't
say when the war is done. He says, when the battle is
done, Boy. Good boy.
You're right. He wasn't even gonna wait for
the war to, you know, whatever it was he playing.
But I'm guessing at least part of it was removing areas from
the throne. Yeah, that's some sort of.
Let's make him Advocate. Yeah, I totally agree.
I mean, there's all the evidence that rhaegar was already
planning this with Tywin and with other things.
And yeah, I mean, that's the whole nother story but yes,
there is evidence that his the too little too late thing or the
roads. Not traveled thing was referring
to that, like, yeah, I was going to but I was busy at the tower
of joy. You know, and also, and yeah, I
can imagine, it's a tough decision to make for a son to
remove his King from power and it might be controversial.
And as a default, the kingsguard might not allow it.
However, I think the kingsguard would have allowed and I think
that they would understand like we're protecting the throne, the
realm, like this man. Aries is not necessarily.
None of them liked what they were responsible writer.
So me does not like that. He stands there and watches
Aries burn people. I don't think regular would have
had to try to Jamie freaking killed himself.
Like, yeah, he doesn't feel right like maybe two or three of
the kingsguard to sense and maybe there's a battle and two
or three people died but I think at the end, one way, the other
areas is awful. Yeah.
I mean he hasn't said those three with him.
Yeah, I don't think there would come a battle either because I
don't think rhaegar would have been pushing for his father to
be killed. He would have been, you know,
right? Yeah, retirement, little castle
somewhere and put some guards on him and all that.
And that's dangerous, that someone could weaponize let him
keep issuing commands and just got this act like Showing them
areas might not even be aware that he's been removed.
They just walk him off into some chamber.
Styrofoam learn today. This is nice.
Yeah, just let him think he's still in charge.
Yeah, I was too little too late though.
As regards its. Yeah, it does no good to speak
of Roads. Not taken.
Exactly. Yeah.
It's too late unless you like fan fiction.
I. Yeah.
It's been. It's been your opportunities are
endless. Let's talk about who the
combatants were on the Run. Both side.
We've got Ned Stark, we got Robert Baratheon, we got Jon
Arryn. We got Hospitality Roose Bolton
Wyman, manderly Crow, food Umber, and his two sons Serb
Artemis of the wool stand the one-legged night.
Apparently he saves Amanda Lee his life during this battle
according to him. That's but that's why he got the
will stand. You know, he's got some evidence
to back that up. Like what did he do to deserve
that? Well, according to him, it was
save his Lords life Rickard karstark was there.
We don't know if he was a lord yet, but he was, there may have
been fighting alongside his father or if he was already the
Lord then He would have been leading the karstark forces
himself. This is something he refers to
when he's about to get executed. He's like, you know, I fought
beside your father etcetera, Roose Bolton.
Oh, I already said respond Jorah, Mormont would have been
there more on that later. He would have been the Lord
because his father, probably already abdicated speaking of
advocating and took the black, but he hadn't been knighted yet
interesting. He got knighted after the
Greyjoy Rebellion. So that's another seven years
later. So, dark probably didn't do a
whole lot in this battle. Least not enough to get
knighted, but Northerners don't get night at a lot anyway, so
I'll Soul incorporate was there. This is the famous moment in,
which he got lady forlorn. His father was fighting and got
wounded and Lynch Scoops up. The family blaring steel blade
and goes on and does Great Stuff with.
In fact, he's the one that kills Prinsloo and Martel although
apparently Lou and Martel was injured, right?
If I call it great stuff, he gets to claim.
Yeah, he's right here. That's terrible.
Yeah, but at least he was on the right side.
He was on the good guy. Sideline Kerber is a pretty bad
too. But Haley, she fought on the
correct side my opinion. Maybe not the correct side, the
side that's going to end the world, right?
Maybe not the correct size. Yeah, I have mixed opinions on
whether I think once I one side was truly the most righteous
yeah, from their perspective, it seemed awfully righteous.
But with other details it's like well, so we Lionel corporate who
is the elder and who is still mad that he didn't get the sword
because he did inherit the It may have been there too but
maybe not because that's why he didn't get the sword.
I don't know. Jason master was there another
another badass from the riverlands so there's a lot of
just there's a plenty of other Lords that we could name.
That were probably there. It would probably get a little
old going through every single one of these and trying to
figure out who was there. Not guessing whether they were
what age, they were not but there were a lot of large there
we did say, if we finish this podcast, that's right.
But keep in mind. A lot of the may not have done
much like Jorah, he may not have done much that the way the
battle Laid out, Robert kills rhaegar and maybe a lot of the
guys may not have ever drawn their sword or swung it anyone
you know they did may have been over relatively quickly where
that's another yet another detail were not entirely clear
on even how quick the battle went.
So even to having been there, they may not have done much some
of them certainly did but others yeah, not so much worth noting.
It might not have been super quick but I don't think it could
have been too long because that would have been mentioned.
If it was like a four-day battle name, you know.
Reese morning. When the sun came up, it resume,
that would be part of the stories and it's not will be
hard to forget that. Yeah.
Like, after on the fourth day, Robert.
Yeah, I would have been your. Yeah, I think you're right about
that, on the loyalist side. So the rebels had fewer men
total but they had their men had been fighting battles throughout
the war. Whereas the Loyalists arm here,
most of the soldiers, had not fought in a battle you or if
they had it with some other battle long before wasn't, in
this war, the dornishman to 10,000 dornishman hadn't fought.
Anything yet, the crown, Landers who that the combined force that
fought about the bells, the survivors from that battle did,
but like the crown lands levees complete rookies.
A lot of them, probably some of them had maybe never liked their
think of the guys dunk was training and in the Sworn Sword
him. Some of them might be like at
that level and had two weeks of training at most, you know,
something to distinguish that there is another Factor like the
having experience and training to our big factors but not
having it doesn't mean you can't win.
Imagine if those guys that dunk was trying to train or
passionate about the cause, yeah, they weren't.
That's another Factor. Yeah, one of the first battles
in a revolutionary were Battle of Bunker Hill.
It was just a bunch of farmers. This is bunch of American Farms.
You never been any battle against battle trained and
experienced Redcoats, and reddish ended up winning that
battle. But they got into Retreat to
times like two times the British charge and Americans fought them
off. They charge again and fought
them off, find the third time, they took the hill or whatever,
but point is it rookie. An experienced Farmers with
their Spears and rakes or whatever they can win.
If they really believe in a call and I think that they're more
likely to have really believed in the, cause on the rebel side
because from again, without the magic stuff, which the farmers
don't know about that, like, hey Robert, Ned didn't know about
that stuff. Yeah, I wouldn't The Peasant
Farmers on one side or the other.
They rhaegar's folk wouldn't know that either.
So the 10,000 dornishman led up by insults and threats.
They don't meet this description but maybe some of them did but
certainly some of the rebels. I did I would think so the
rebels probably had more of that fire.
Yeah. Thing every Stark Soldier is
passionate about spray burned, our Lord to death and and
strangled her son. I mean that's gonna fire you up
in this context. Is this setting?
Yeah, they're they're mad big man and and justify can
understand it. So goal town was may be brought
back into the fold of the errands.
They may not have been too excited about their place in the
Battle of, considering what they were forced to switch sides.
We find out at some point during arya's traipsing around.
Around the riverlands or perhaps it's, yeah.
I think it's our is traipsing around riverlands, with the
Brotherhood without banners, where there's some ruined
Villages and it's revealed that posture Tully had chem come down
on some of his own people because they stayed loyal to the
king and he had to go tack them. And that to this day, that
causes some issues of course to this day is only 15 16 years
later. So, you can understand why a
bill is being burned down. It hasn't been the same since
even if it was rebuilt, partly. So other houses Mouton, that's
Aiden pool. They were that's a riverlands
house but they stayed loyal. Rhaegar Squire.
At one point, was Sir Myles mood and he was killed in the battle
of the Bells. They had good incentive to stay
on the Targaryen side house, Reiger and good Brooke were two
of the examples of houses that historically with the war with,
in his own realm. Dairies, of course, John
dairies, when the kingsguard so that's a riverlands house, you
can see why they stayed loyal. Darius had the Targaryen
tapestries still hang even in the time of Robert, the Wentz is
a big question for me. That's the house that the ruled
harrenhal the time. I don't know what side they
took, but there's evidence that the whence were backing rhaegar
that they were behind the tournament harrenhal that they
were the proxy for the folding, the tournament handle, which
would very clearly put them on the side of the Loyalists,
especially given one of rhaegar's.
Three, most trusted kingsguard was Oswell went.
So yeah. That seems like a safe that
also. You have the survivors about
Bell's, like I said, a bunch of crown lands are sorry crack
Appoint houses, which are in the crown lands fought for the
targaryens Brianne. Here's this, when she's in that
area, Boggs broun crab houses like that.
And a very large host of Richmond.
This is the perhaps, the most important part of the army,
because it is more of a standard nightly Army that is pretty
loyal to the targaryens. You got a story of randyll tarly
sending the head of I forget which Lord some stormlands
house, Catherine, I think. It was to Aires after winning a
small battle there that Mace Tyrell took credit for.
Yeah. And of course, he was missing,
there's no Lannisters, no phrase.
Much of the stormlands is out of it because they had fought each
other and were depleted product. Bring up most people in the chat
brought up the idea that, you know, Catland Brothers, a went
minister went maybe that makes it question mark for went, but
that would point to them siding with the totally.
That is a good point. Yeah, that is a tricky one and
makes it more likely with it was a kinship that they would have,
but I don't know. And also, just the proximity
would be tricky for them to, I mean, not harrenhal is one of
the closest house has to wear the battle was fought.
Yeah. When it was this Castle, so they
would wouldn't be one of those where they could be.
Like, let's just stay neutral and maybe they did because they
possibly, they didn't have much help.
Send at this point, but probably they did.
I'm guessing? Because of the rhaegar stuff,
they were more likely siding with him.
But you're right, there may have been, a may not have been a
full-throated defense. I may have been a one foot in
each Camp kind of situation and we pointed out in the beginning
that There wasn't clear Unity among any may be anywhere,
except the north. Right.
Yeah. That's true.
It might have been people in the
riverlands on both sides. Yeah.
There was also, or from harrenhal or the wind Stephen.
I don't know how many family members enter when's but I can
imagine at least some of their Bannerman being split on
different sides. Yeah, you're right.
There is what think of the blackfyre Rebellion?
Is where your neighbor might be on the other side of you
battles, you where's that would rarely be the case in other
contexts. But here and then another big
part of the reach Army was not there though as much as there
was a large contingent of. Are the other really large
contingent was besieging storms end where Stannis was held up
the whole, this is where the onion Knight incident occurred.
So those troops maybe could have been put to better.
Use up it the tried it. But that's not what happens.
Ironborn course were took no part.
At least this part. They did jump in at the end
which will mention also at the end but they played no role at
this stage. I'm going to one of the ironborn
on my side. Yeah.
Well I wouldn't have one of them on the others.
People's side either know if it's if it's Neutral, that's
good. But like better than them on our
side than on their side. I don't know.
I'm just used to take some of them out so if regard one, just
a quick question where I can answer this question is when to
throw it out there for y'all, maybe discussion the chat or
just consider on your own. What would have happened to the
Wildfire caches? Now, every set them before the
battle of the Trident, he sent them after the battle the
builds. So it's one thing.
If he had, just set them right after his foot, his son was
killed like, oh, I'm to set the Wildfire, you know.
But he'd already Done. That.
Which is a little surprising, but it shows his level of pair.
He's very prepared. Paranoia man.
Paranoid, man. So I guess what he have would
regard as have, had them removed or varies feathers, like okay,
so Roberts dead, so we can take these caches back out now or is,
are he's going to leave them there?
Like I matter, leave them there in case I need them for
something else, in case I need to detonate the city for some
other reason would Jamie of told someone with Jamie like hey, hey
gar, dude. Your dad's got Wildfire stashed
all over the city. That's what I think would
happen. I think Jamie would have told
someone it might've been pretty girl would have dealt with it.
Would have maybe proceeded to the A big Forest abdication from
that stage, but which may have, although that may have been his
cue to light, the wildfires like you want me to step down.
I'll show you. Yeah, yeah.
Do you might have still killed Aries?
Terra Incognito who is regular child meet up.
She is not Incognito. Good, thank you, reveal.
That she is not read dunk and egg the dunk and egg series.
My God. What are you waiting for, please
do it. You love it so much.
I promise you sir. I think if I had to choose
George finishing Song of Ice and Fire or dunk and egg.
I think I might choose that might be Blasphemous sounding to
some people, Tara just got one of the shirts from our
threadless shop. Yeah.
In the mail, lunch people in the chat, I've gotten their shirts
that they want from our trial by Theory episode.
So yeah, those were working out well, for you, folks, and on
that trial, by Theory episode. We also we were talking about
the idea of working and how powerful you have to be.
It could people do it from a distance or thing about whether
or not Rob could have gone into Shaggy Dog or I'm like that.
And we just neglected to mention.
How are you organs? And I'm here from far away lies.
He's on a different continent. Yeah, great Point.
Very good point. So it's at least a potential and
re isn't some master wizard, so I hope she could do it.
Maybe Rob could do it then. George James has in the
riverlands, what has me curious as whether the Blackwood sided
with Robert or Eric's. I think if they were approached
our Gary and the bracken's would bring it up constantly but Ares
was Beth, blackwood's grandson. Yeah, that is a tough one.
Yeah, we don't know. I wonder if that's got a
question if you ask George You'd probably like he probably would
defer or demure and not give a straight answer, but he might,
he might have it in his mind. That's a, that is a good point.
I'm not really sure they, maybe maybe they just sat out.
It's a really good. It's a poser.
I don't know how their lord of Benders.
She probably had like a boy, Lord right then.
And as easier for them, you know what I mean?
I don't recall. If sometimes you have a child
Lord, tytos Blackwood, I mean titers black was old enough to
have been lured, then he's gray-haired.
But doesn't mean his father wasn't alive?
Yeah. Mmm.
There's maybe something he says. Dad.
It could be the same thing where you have like an agent Ward like
you know, an old Lord. So that that's the same thing.
Like if you have a Boy Child Lord or like a dying Lord, like
sometimes you don't get involved because we have an outdoor not
getting. Oh yeah.
It seems likely the bratva Brackins and blackwood's fought
in the War and they probably followed their Legions Lord.
I mean I'm guessing that that might be why no one brings it up
because they both fought for the same side?
Yeah, I know what I mean. Yeah.
One of those times where neither of them to hold it over the
other because they both, Okay, side.
Yeah, we pot calling the kettle black, whatever.
Yeah. But that's a good.
It's probably the kettle black wood.
That's what happens. If the black woods and kettle
black. Sever.
Murdered a God house kettle. Black wood.
Okay. Zonals sunchaser is until
sunchaser says any ice and fire con survival tips going to my
first one this year. Hey, hopefully you're getting
you get there on Thursday because they have a Thursday
nights. Kelly party.
Doesn't that advertised but I like it's a fun thing.
Any thoughts from you? Sean, I've three tips one is, it
could be windy and 40 or it could be 78.
Be prepared, especially for the tournament, which is out.
Doors are for a swing of whether a few days before your trip to
prepare, but also be aware that it might the forecast might
change drastically even those few days.
Number two? Yeah.
What's that's? Another tip I would give is and
it might be easier, said, than done for some people.
But I'll just be friendly just at me.
Every I'm telling everyone there is there to meet new people and
to hang out and tell stories. You know, just don't be afraid
to me. You'll be among the harder you
went away. Yeah.
This is yeah. You may never know.
You may not have Something like that before being around people
who were deeply Into A Song of Ice and Fire but it really is
something else in a good way. Very, very, very good way.
It's the tree that Sean died and three is that the location is
about an hour away from the airport and pretty much
everything else. So it's worth making a grocery
stop getting drinks or snacks or something like that.
Because once you're at the lodge, it's hard to leave it and
go anywhere to get anything else.
There's not a lot in the way of like restaurants or convenience
stores or where's the state park?
Arc to be clear that the communication is at Deer Creek
State Park. So that's part of why it's, you
know, there's extra room to do stuff.
But yeah, like you said show that was going to say that.
When if you didn't say those, yes, make sure you have there's
a fridge in your room so you can my it's a beautiful location but
it's not. There's not like a city nearby
like to have just like some milk and cereal or some granola bars
for yeah, just basic stuff. My other thing is, I'm putting
one, I'm putting the panel schedule in the chat, which is
almost full. There's a few things, not quite
on that schedule. Like, there will be a history of
Westeros meet up. It's just not on there yet, but
you can look at the panel schedule.
There. And I suggest going to the ice
breakers event. I think it's a great way to meet
people. They do different games where
you like do thing, where you like put a character named on
your forehead and people have to give guests who you are like
little Icebreaker. Get just fun little way.
They have a couple of them on the schedule.
I think to you will not be the only first time with.
Yeah. What about there was?
Plenty of first-timers there for probably a couple dozen of
these. Yeah and we will be doing
Whiplash again. This year, two different
sessions of quick flash including Sunday night.
Right? And I'm working on a house of
the dragon-themed Whiplash pack so that'll be a pro res, good
time. I hope.
Yeah, it's the 10th ice and fire con, I believe, but it's the
first one. Obviously with House of the
Dragon in stuff going on. So that's kind of a bit of a
milestone. Both 10 year and new content to
be mixed in. Yeah, I'm excited.
Sean's doing his yoga Again, The Song of Ice and Fire yoga which
he's done before, which I think is a pretty cool unique events.
We going to say, I think, if you can fit your yoga mat in your
bag, with might be easier said than done.
And but I think first time we did it.
My wife contributed, some yoga mats to Terra who runs the
event. So they might have some yoga
mats on hand there. But yeah, well, you know, it's a
lot of standard yoga stuff but I just saw you.
The only the names, like, some are easy like Mountain pose
Children of the forest, water dancer pose.
The cast is any of it being streamed.
No, but they record it and they on the ice and fire con YouTube
channel, there will be pretty much all the panels.
Unless, there's technical difficulties are always released
on their YouTube channel, which is pretty great.
I don't think yoga will be recorded though.
The flash actually, the regular panels will be not streamed but
recorded in post it and that is the last weekend of April 20 23.
If you're listening in the future.
That's right. I'll word from our sponsor
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Brilliant sponsor. The Ruby Ford in yet another
example of the memory of the battle of the Trident echoing
throughout history and Song of Ice and Fire Aria and Mike Go
searching for rhaegar's rubies and Sansa won a game of thrones
15 is years before is when the armies actually Clash there,
what became known as the Ruby for it is not far from King's
Landing. And what's interesting is I
don't know if it maybe didn't have a name at all before or if
the farmer named was forgotten or it just got a name for the
first time because of this. It was the Sapphire for it
before. Yeah.
So under normal circumstances, I think the distance from
harrenhal to King's Landing is about two weeks and this is a
really similar location, genuine speaking or generally speaking.
So if they were rushing which they probably were cut it down a
few days. Maybe nine ten days something
like that will say what's pretty quick that they left Kingsland
when Jamie here's that. Last words he ever heard from
agar. Targaryen was probably only
about nine or so days before the battle happened and as we
probably extrapolated before it was probably, Be a one-day one
bet. One afternoon type of battle,
not an all day, not a multi-day grind.
It's not clear if they were just trying to stop Robert from
advancing on King's Landing or just trying to kill Robert
specifically or just trying to win a battle.
And then negotiate from strength, right?
A bunch of mysteries here, both in their goal, their
decision-making, and behind all that is the motivation that were
uncertain of we're a lot clearer on the motivations, on the rebel
side. And most of the Loyalists are
just defending the king they swore to defend in the prince
they supported but rhaegar's motivations.
Is timing. That's where there's a whole lot
of wiggle room in confusion and mystery and room for theorizing.
As well, we must assume that armies of this size sent ahead.
Scouts, they generally knew where both sides were the first
place your. So they're just like, how far
away are they now? How far away are they now?
So they probably both had a pretty good idea of where they
were and where they were going to meet.
So, I suspect Robert & Company, specifically play themselves
where they were knowing rhaegar was coming.
We're like, okay, we're on this side of the, the Ford they're
going to have to cross over the water to get to us.
And apparently rhaegar ordered the crossing straight away,
almost perhaps right away, which is very curious Roberts.
Army was surely happy enough to claim the event.
Like, we have The High Ground, they're gonna let us have The
High Ground but why? Right, let's have a quote, First
of the famous battle on the Trident much has been written
and said, but all know that, the two armies Clash of The Crossing
that would ever after be called the Ruby Ford for the scattered
rubies on Prince, rhaegar's armor.
The opponents were well matched. Rhaegar's forces.
Numbered some 40,000 a tenth part of which were unknown to
ninth while the rebels had somewhat fewer men, but those
they possessed were tested in battle while.
Much of rhaegar's for rhaegar's force was raw and noon.
Yes, so the Army's didn't really situation didn't really favored
rhaegar and less. He was overconfident in their
quantity, which he's not a dummy.
He's got a big battle experienced guy but this is
Basic stuff. Was it his belief in destiny
that he just didn't think he could lose or was he just
regular old overconfident or some combination of both?
What do you think? Sean is kind of an odd decision
to just go straight. You know what does this speak
words to say to you? It's possible that he knew he
couldn't win either way. Like maybe again.
It's I don't know if that totally makes sense, but but he
figured you could buy the other what?
Yeah, like it, maybe, maybe he had.
Division. I don't know.
I don't know what could explain it, like a vision of Robert on a
throne doesn't necessarily explain it all the, maybe he
thought he could change Destiny, or maybe he thought he needed to
change Destiny or maybe he thought it was some.
Maybe he knew that his father wasn't going to be king anymore
and so he's going to be king, maybe Robert, will he anyway, I
might be getting a little ahead of myself because I think I
hadn't known this later but I will say here now that I think
there's at least a strong chance that he thought he could just
end it if he were able to kill. And just went right for ya and
it may be all the rest of the armies and the battles, you
know, weren't relevant, or he didn't care about, you know,
it'll handle it themselves or I've got generals, I can
everybody knew Robert LED from the front by that point
probably. So maybe I'm counting on that.
Yeah, one of the things I think is interesting is that we don't
know how many forces the rebels had we know it.
Was it last? Yeah, just last.
Yeah, right. But was it 10 percent less or
half as many and and that could add to it.
Also if they did significant frequently outnumber them,
right? Let's say that was close to an
even match except they had 10,000 extra donors.
From then rhaegar might have been a little more Reckless
seems like we're going to win this anyway.
Just charge. You know, it might not be the
most efficient more people would die than they should but that
won't even matter if I Could Just Kill Robert, you know.
Yeah. Actually if there was a moment
when he saw what he saw this, here's my chance car, maybe it
wasn't an additional plan, but he took the opportunity
initiative their archers weren't ready.
He could identify Over on the battlefield and just it go quick
down moves. Let's just do it now.
However, it is very distinct on the battlefield.
It's hard as it is to see people on a battlefield like there
would be his banners nearby and his giant home and his just
giant self quick little side note Henry and Henry Richards
battle at Bosworth. He got off his horse and just
went in amongst the men like he was trying to keep himself from
being identifiable and it wasn't necessarily cowardly, but he
just wasn't a soldier. He wasn't a warrior of any And
he was like a financier and a student.
And like he was like an intellectual Richard was,
Richard was a soldier and battle-hardened, Warrior, and
Richard. Like there's Henry, let's go get
him and here's a crap. Big deal, I don't want to fight
him and enrich almost got right to him.
Like we said earlier, he was with him like a Arm's Reach of
it. Really?
That's wild. You wonder if there was anything
like that going on, but we'll get to that in a minute with
like, regards kingsguard and maybe Roberts close.
Then but so Crossing or here's what I'm this is why the let's
lay out a little more why this decision to just charge or to
advance cross the rivers, a little curious crossing rivers
hard even when it's the Ford. Maybe the Ford was really
shallow and they expected it to fill up and they like okay this
is the weather now is our best chance because of the situation
of the water level. If you're taking a situation, we
have two nights of average ability, one of them standing on
the riverbank and one of them is standing in the mud trying to
climb out of it ranked. It's pretty obvious who has the
advantage here now Take that and multiply it by a thousand or
whatever. However, many nights are lined
up on the bank, waiting for the other guys to try and cross.
It's also pretty clear if you think about who has the
advantage with archers, the guys who were moving forward, are
going to take more Arrow shots than the guys who were standing
in a fixed position shooting at the ones who are approaching
them. So the advancing Warriors have
to take more Arrow fire. Now recall edmure stopping Tywin
at the Battle of the Fords even though Rob didn't want him to he
did it really effectively and Tywin had a lot more men than
but they were very staunch with their defense.
The Fords found all the different spots.
The Taiwan may try to cross town was looking for other places to
cross and edmure, really effectively defended those and
Catelyn, watched it pretty similar.
I think maybe there was a little bit of a pre-battle like this,
where rhaegar trying to find a way across and Robert was
effectively stopping them. So like, all right, well, we
can't find a way across. We're going to form our army
into a fist and force a Crossing.
Or maybe to give regular more credit.
Maybe this is the spot that Robert didn't have prepared.
Well, maybe that's why he chose this spot The Archers weren't
ready. He maybe the banks were muddy on
the far side and not the near side or something like that.
Why not take a defensive stance and force Robert across?
Why when I go elsewhere, why not, why be in a hurry at all.
There are reasons, there are reasons for that.
So let's try to answer that one is.
Yeah, maybe he's just he's just really concerned with killing
Robert as quickly as possible to save as many lives as possible.
That's a maybe a Sara Lee friendly, take 4 on rhaegar, but
They didn't want Robert to get away either, maybe Robert would
withdraw get more troops and then he's a bigger army.
They met that might have been a concern that if they don't take
him out. Now he's going to be hard to
take out later. Perhaps rhaegar believed, yeah,
rhaegar perceived, the messaging favored.
Robert this guy's the hero here, you're the villain, you know,
maybe rhaegar perceived that the way people were talking.
It's not hard to see the way his dad behave that people might
prefer. The young energetic, just hero
here like, We don't want that word to spread more and more
people might join his side, but an even bigger.
Open question is Tywin, Tywin, was in the field with an army,
nearby ish. It's just sitting there so
rhaegar's like hmm, if he thinks tywin's on his side he might
advance and then if Robert fleas has got nowhere to go because
Tyler is nearby. And if he sits there maybe he's
afraid Tywin joins Robert. I don't know what was he was
thinking, but there's no way tywin's Army wasn't part of the
consideration of both sides because they had both of them.
Probably knew he was there out there.
He wouldn't have been that far away and again Scouts and all
that there. Looking for other armies.
And they're gonna be worried about some other Army
approaching from here or there. Who knows who's on whose side?
At this point, there's definitely people that might
switch sides or haven't declared yet so that he'll have to be
wary about things coming from other places especially with
like the ironborn. Not taking a side.
Yeah. Like maybe they would have taken
a side at some point. You got to watch out for that.
So All these things. Maybe he's worried about what
his dad will do back in King's Landing to Elia to his other
people of King's Landing, he murders Jamie or maybe Jamie
murders. Him time was not on his side.
There's a lot of arguments that show.
Okay, I can see why rhaegar was in a hurry here, but maybe he
was just too eager to go back to pregnant, Lianna the tower.
Join me, or, or again, some combination of all these three
things are all these many things, right?
It's really hard to decipher through which is most important
to rhaegar, which other facts because we're also probably
missing some details to right. Sean.
Yeah, lots of things that we sort of suspected or details, it
George could give us, you know, just some, someone present at
the Battle just needs one line of dialogue saying, but storms
were covering and and soon the Ford would be come across table,
you know, something like that would explain why he had or
thought you needed to go. Right then or, you know, again,
I suggested a couple times, it may be just The Archers weren't
prepared, you know, it specially for a girl, was moving quicker
than the scouts anticipated and only was there and robbers like,
oh crap. We don't have her defenses up
yet and riggers. Like, hey, there are other
defenses up yet. All right, let's just go.
Now, you know, yeah, even if there was an element of
recklessness or uncertainty, there might have been just
enough for him to like things, he thought we weren't going to
go his way. We're going his way, and he just
sees the moment, you know. So I agree with you in general.
I would say that. We don't know what the Pacific
sorry, but it's probably not just dumb.
Like, he probably had a reason or multiple reasons.
It may have been the wrong. Based on all the different
factors, but I'm definitely going to guess that he just was
rash about it, but that is possible.
It's also the type of thing, it like hindsight's 20/20 and
Victor gets the right history. Like, if rhaegar had one, if
Gregor had beat Robert hero, which hang?
Yeah. And it seems like it wasn't like
Robert easily overpowered and it seemed like a close match, your
Robert, pulled it out in the end.
So, it seems, like if things went slightly differently, if
someone got a little lucky or unlucky, Or maybe the only
reason I ever lost was he got a little?
I'm like his horses no slept or something like that and if he
had won it is to be we be wondering why do Roberts stay
back in a defensive position. Why didn't he crossed the for
you? Yes, very good point.
Yeah, there and with all that with so many unknowns it's
something that you know I'm a little skeptical will hear a
whole lot more about. I'm not sure George needs to
give us more detail about whatever happened at the Battle
of the Trident and there were a lot of witnesses so it
definitely could. Come on.
There's plenty of opportunity for it.
I don't know if you will, I don't know if you Do, I don't
know if he thinks it's important.
Oh, I understand being skeptical of it but we've gotten so much
so consistently. I don't know.
Yeah, Preston is good to give us.
It hasn't stopped one thing that will probably give us more
information. I don't know what the lines
update is, but there's the stage musical about Robert's
Rebellion. That's in the works.
Very good point, already know about this.
Yeah, I don't know how I assume that would have the battle of
the Trident and George is involved in that.
So I do think that we have a very strong likelihood of
getting a lot more context for this in musical form.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, George is supposed to be involved in that directly.
I think he has been writing the script for the musical, I
believe. That is really cool.
So yeah, he's gonna have to think about somebody thing.
Maybe give us some answers, so that's, that's really cool.
Because if it came from someone else, you may not be sure that
beat my heart to be accepting it as Canon, but comes from George
says, going to be really hard to not count as care.
Yeah, I should be clear. Actually, it's unclear the scope
of the musical, it is about the tourney of harrenhal, so it
might end, it might really be a very like self.
Contained thing. I kind of assumed that it would
go past it. But now that I think about it, I
think it's actually the tournament.
It's okay. So we wouldn't see the, like the
tried entering. Yeah.
Okay. I think I don't think it would
still. Maybe I'll give us contacts.
Yeah. Not as much as we would have
won, but a lot could potentially someone else could look back on
it. Bran or Dare anyone really
especially brand but Danny is a strong candidate because she's
already dreamt of it as will see, as well get to.
So, there's all these takes all the people who were there.
There's some eyewitness takes most of them come from Nobles.
Here's a pretty precious one because it comes from someone
who was not a high-ranking official.
Not a lordly lord or a night. Yes, barely.
But on the border of being a hedge Knight, its elder brother
from the quiet Isle, here's his quote and I died in the Battle
of the Trident. I fought for Prince rhaegar
though, he never knew my name. I could tell you why, I saved
the Lord, I served served, the Lord who served the Lord, who
had decided to support the dragon rather than the SAG.
He had had he decided elsewise I might have been on the other
side of the river but it was a bloody thing.
The singers would have us believe it was all rhaegar and
Robert struggling in a stream for a woman.
Both of them claim to love, but I assure you other.
Men were fighting to and I was one.
I took an arrow through the thigh and another side of the
foot and my horse was killed from under me.
Yet I fought on. I can still remember how
desperate I was to find another horse for a head.
No coin to buy one. And without a horse I would no
longer be at night. I was always thinking of truth
be told, I never saw the blow that felled me, I heard who's
behind my back and thought a horse, but before, I could turn
something slammed into my head and knock me back into the river
where by rights, I should have drowned.
So that's probably our best account from a non-noble.
It's lengthy, it's weighty. It's tells us a lot shows us
what was on his mind. It shows us, he wasn't loyal to
either side really he just got dragged into this.
It shows us that. Yes, crossing the river was
difficult, he took multiple Arrow wounds, which is You're
saying the crossing the river that puts you at Great Peril of.
That's when The Archers would be most at their most dangerous and
you're Crossing into that, I would guess that there were a
lot fewer Arrow wounds on the side of the rebels because they
were holding a fixed position on the one side of the river.
So guys like this we're waiting into that and it is it says here
he was I don't know what I was fighting for a woman they claim
to love like he's not even mentioned, the throne here not
even talking about the crown. That's a really important that
this soldier from a soldier's projected.
That's what He perceived this was about fighting over a woman
fighting over love which is like are we wired 80,000 ish people
fighting over that? I can understand that.
It's not that what he did was wrong or what she did was right.
But this is a bit much for a domestic dispute.
Kind of situation from his perspective, might seem like
that and it cost him everything. Now he's in a, he's happy with
where he ended up. He's like I found, peace and God
and all this other stuff and that's great.
But he feels lucky. He's like, I should have died
like, most of the people I was with weren't as lucky as me.
They did die. I was strong in that helped me
survive. The wounds.
I had taken other people weren't so lucky or weren't so strong,
and didn't make it. And that's why he says, when I
died at the Battle of the Trident because it's kinda like
he's born again. He was baptized in the water and
brought out. This was kind of one of the
clues for sand or being alive. Is he says the Hound is dead but
Bubba, you know it's like fucking Sandor, Clegane.
However that's of course, another story.
Again I think my thoughts on morale of the dornish people.
Like this guy is like, I don't know.
I serve some Lord who serves some other Lord, who was on this
side, like the people in Dorne, they don't know, they're even
farther removed. This guy's closer to home of
this battle if you will. But people from Dorne, they
might not even know the name of the king.
I guess they probably know that the targaryens, but yeah.
But I'm just saying they're farther removed, they would feel
less commitment, or loyalty or meaning behind this battle.
Absolutely. Yeah.
And it's the such a yeah, think about it from.
I love thing about him is perspective is heart wrenching
as it can be. It's really important to take a
look at all the different perspectives we can get like,
yeah, what. It seems like to Rick right?
Reger thinks the world is in the balance.
Robert thinks his honor and Justice in his what's been done
to his friends in the balance. This guy is like two guys,
fighting over a woman is that really why we're here?
You know, like and then Not sharing the full picture because
they don't know it, so these are all valid but they're not means
different things to different people.
Nina, mentions, Raymond Ares, 3, older brothers also died at the
Trident, which makes it a pretty bad day for house Dairy.
They lost three male heirs and the king of their famous
kingsguard brother. We're not sure how Jonna for
died, he died in the Battle, we're not sure who killed him,
but maybe someone nameless, you know?
It's a battle. It could be a number of things.
He may be took several wounds and the last one was just the
straw that broke the camel's back.
Not some great heroic Warrior that defeated a kingsguard
member at full strength. But maybe that is what happened,
we have no Idea with him. But yeah it was a bad day for
house dairy-house Theory. This suffered a lot in general
after the fall of House Targaryen.
Yeah, again to say it might be worth all those losses, if your
side one. Yeah.
Right. But they also are now they're on
the losing side and then things got worse in the war and the war
of five Kings. Of course, like Gregor Clegane.
Got ahold of their castle and that never goes well, Someone I
didn't mention in the intro who was probably at the coronation
but definitely in the battle was only living POV to a
participated was barristan selmy.
He is perhaps one of our best remaining chances to hear more
about the battle but he was taken out of the engine out of
the battle. Pretty early injuries almost
killed him as well. Kind of like, elder brother took
multiple wounds, and eventually just that was too much.
No, then he was unconscious. I don't know if Berberian was
ever unconscious, but he wouldn't have seen, Robert.
Slay rig are most likely He had been badly wounded three times
one with an arrow, by the way, which again implies charging
into this brought position and the battle ended when rhaegar
fell. So barisan wouldn't have been
able to do anything more after that point as well.
In fact, it's likely had barristan been at full strength,
he would have had to go through, Robert would've had to go
through him first. It's rhaegar mean, this is
bearish and some were talking about this is the dude that this
is dusk, and Dale guy. So, So, he's not going to stand
there. While Robert advances on Ray
guards. Be like, you handle him, I'll
fight this guy. No, he's going to my kit.
My friends, I'm here, you know, that's his job and we know he's
always done his job for the most part.
So, mrs. Peris in the bowl.
Like, so Robert isn't going to just go through him, you know,
unless he's badly wounded already which is what happened
to Prince Doran Martell, when he fought Lynn corbray.
So quite possibly hide the time. Rhaegar, got to Robert all three
of the kingsguard that he brought to dead.
One out of action, too badly injured to do anything.
So, basically out of it, you know, effectively, all three of
them are out and maybe that's when Robert and rhaegar came
together because the King's Guard were gone regards like.
Alright, I'm it's too late to back down, Robert sees him
Roberts full of Rage so Roberts definitely go for him.
If he has got Robert doesn't have a kingsguard at this point.
He's not officially King but he's got his close friends
around him but they know Robert. I know he's first now he's
riding out after agar. They're not going to catch him.
Him. He's got a head start like duck
goose. Chase after him.
I don't know but and they may have just left it like, well,
Robert got to do this one alone. That's this is, this is personal
between these two. So, that's a lot of, really
interesting decisions. A lot of different people that
would have perceived this moment and have a variety of different
thoughts. Going through their heads,
Robert and rhaegar among them, but not nearly the only to
whether it's elder, brother, whether it's the foot soldier,
that's whether it's barisan Squire who may be kept fighting,
I'm completely inventing this person but he has a squire Our
had another Squire Rygaard several Squires.
The other kings guard had Squires.
I mean, there's, there's people who saw the final moment that
happened and we don't get any direct account.
So, yeah, just saying. So, here's the brief entry into
the white book about him that day.
It's only a one sentence wounded by Arrow spear and sword at the
Battle of the Trident whilst fighting beside his sworn
brothers and rhaegar Prince of dragons.
Seems to be confirmation, they were right there with each other
which I mean, that's a safe assumption anyway.
I mean maybe Be the way battle you can get separated and battle
but their job is to stick right by the Crown Prince like very
clearly. Distinctly sir Duncan's and
super chats is happy, Sunday, all jumping in late today, but
I'm sure it's been wonderful. Well, we're having a great time.
I hope the rest of you all are as well.
Let's keep it going. We used a movie title here.
The last duel for this section. There are several accounts of
their actual Showdown. Here's the one, from the world
of Ice and Fire. Well, the battle screamed about
Lord, Robert and Prince rhaegar Our bowl and by the will of the
gods or by chance, or perhaps by Design, they met admits the
shallows of the Ford. The two knights fought valiantly
upon their destroyers, according to all accounts for despite his
crimes, Prince rhaegar was no coward.
Lord Robert was wounded by the dragon prince in the combat yet
in the end baratheon's ferocious strength and his thirst to
avenge. The shame brought upon his
stolen betrothed, proved the greater sort of see a little bit
of the world of Ice and Fire is bias here because the book was
presented to Robert and his family basically and really his
descendant. But it was written with Robert
in mind at first and then, you know, crossed out for Joffrey
crossed out for Tom and I love that the world of Ice and Fire
but it's got to be a little favorable to the current regime,
right? And of course, it's not an
eyewitness account. I don't think maestri and all
was on the battlefield but he may have interviewed people who
were there. As we said there were have been
no shortage of people who would have been there and like, Yan do
would have had the means to Buy you a drink and tell me about
the Battle of the Trident eventually.
He would have gotten some dirt or some info or some straight
talk from be enough people to talk to me, eventually going to
find some purchase there. I've been holding back on this
thought. Okay, but I wonder if it was
less glorious than the pictures paint job.
I wonder if rhaegar just fell off his horse and his leg was
crushed and a robber just got off his horse to smash him in
the chest with his War. Hammer and it wasn't his
triumphant skill and courage in battle, he just got lucky and
took advantage of the moment or some other person chasing after
Robert. Trying to make sure he doesn't
get himself. Killed hit rhaegar from behind
and in Robert gets credit for the kill.
I could see a lot of weight that the fact that we don't quite get
a detail of it. Final moment.
Yeah, yeah and suspicious. And I think that again, I'm,
I've probably got some details, a little mixed up in my head but
Doesn't Danny's Vision include rhaegar, like dropping to his
knees? Yeah.
And Whispering. Is that Adam?
Like what? From the moment they're on their
horses fighting. So when he drops to his knees,
what happened in between there. Yeah.
His head on the ground and go to his knees.
He would be in water. He's on his knees to like he
would be there. Be water around him.
Yeah. Which, you know, again, it's
fine. But how does that get to the
moment? Maybe Robert landed one below or
knocked him off. The horse in and regard
struggles to his feet but can't stand and fall and I could see
I'm struggling to piece together, the different Snippets
that we get, but the fact that we don't get a clear description
not from Robert, not from belliston, or the maesters or
anyone makes me think that, in might have been a little less
than glamorous. Yeah, the way it actually ended,
I can see similar to help Ned killed, Arthur Dayne, maybe we,
maybe Was a little bit of like less-than-honorable attacked
from behind by Helen read that aloud, Ned to beat this.
That's a really good take now on.
Let me throw something that backs you up here out there,
George is highly influenced by a certain series called the Dragon
Boat. Share in that series.
Very mild. Spoiler here folks, a certain
king became king in part gain some of his Fame because he went
into a cave and slew. This old dragon, that had been a
menace for a long time, but it turns out when he went in, the
dragon was almost dead already. It was Cold and decrepit.
So he but he took full credit and it was like oh he killed.
Oh my God! You did it up single person when
income because the dragons in there dead, he's got proof that
his swords in it. You know.
They didn't know that. It was actually quite easy.
And of course, most people don't even see the body or the such as
the rumor. And the rumor is all very
positive and framed the way that made it look like he was a great
hero. So yeah, Robert really did fight
rhaegar that much. We know, like they, yeah, it may
have, he may have gotten lucky, rhaegar may have fallen off his
for something like that. A stray arrow, that isn't meant.
And you're right, so you're right to question the
possibilities but it may have also been as described.
Here's Ned's memory of it. Let's let's get another take
which again isn't quite direct as you'll see but close.
Hey, come together at the Ford of the Trident while the battle
crashed around them, Robert with his war hammer, and his great
antlered, Helm the Targaryen Prince armored, all in black, on
his breastplate was the three-headed dragon of his
house. Raw all and Ruby's.
Flashed, like fire in the sunlight Waters of the Trident
ran red around the Hooves of years as they've circled and
clashed again, and again, until at last a crushing blow of
Roberts Hammer stove in the dragon had the chest beneath it.
Ned had finally come on the scene, rhaegar lay Dead In The
Stream while been of both armies scrambled in the swirling waters
for Ruby's, not free of his arm so that seems to indicate.
Ned didn't see it happen and we said when he finally came on the
scene but he must have seen a little because he's describing
both of them in detail. Specially the rubies flashing
like, Fire in the sunlight. And that's not like a super
poetic descriptive guy. He's more like a military man.
You know, tell me what happened without all the Poetry, you
know, just more of a straight efficiency but there is a way to
read the city, maybe saw part of it and then was distracted
because he's busy fighting people on his own and caught
glimpses. How do you kind of interpret
this? Yeah, I mean I may be the The
scene of it might have cleared, people might have cleared around
or been pointing at the distance or someone told me.
Hey, there's Robert maybe even at.
Yeah, maybe even at the distance, you could see the
flash of sunlight especially Center where the sun was in the
sky. What angle rhaegar was, you
know, the fact that Ned gives some of the details and he's not
particularly poetic does make me think that he must have seen at
least some flash of the image, but it still does not.
Ned still does not. Scribe, the victory, blow their
courageous moment, the last scene and I'm telling you, I
feel strongly that they final Blow The Killing strike was not
to the chest rhaegar, oh, right? I think that was after he was
dead or immobilized, slammed him, that was Robert finishing
him off. That wasn't like, the way he
killed him for the way he won, that was like, and after the
fact moment, okay? Okay.
We know. Yeah, he's clearly clearly that
happened in I'm form because the rubies and all that, but you're
right. He could have already been down.
He would like Robert like so mad that he's just hammering him
repeatedly because like.you know, I mean, this is the same
guy that 15 years later said, you know, like I should have
killed her. Think you did kill him.
He's like only once, right? So that does kind of sound like
a guy that would be like, all right, he's dead.
I'm done now is like his rage went just being cooled.
The second rhaegar's, dad, it would take a little while.
Yeah, I can see that. I mean, it's not a trick.
I think a lot of other examples of the, the idea of someone
being dead and someone like beating them past, what needs to
be done, Want to spoil. Yeah.
And I Better Call Saul or other you know Last of Us oh the
things out there along this line but but I can see him smashing
many chests multiple times even like maybe he even wanted to
like just smash those rubies off his chest and he hits it and his
hammer just kind of clanks and it doesn't it doesn't like for
more time. Do you really knock all seven
Ruby degree with one strike? I mean, yeah.
That is a little, maybe a little too clean, right?
Yeah. There you may be making some you
making some anywhere else with this Theory or Sean.
I like it. I like it.
Need a ride. Yeah, even though Robert was
huge and hugely talented. There's not a lot of argument
that he was just really overmatching rhaegar here.
Rhaegar was very talented as well.
He bleeped, literally believed it was his Destiny to be a
warrior but savior of humanity for a while.
At this point he may have already this point.
He figured out that wasn't him. This point, he figured out.
It was his son apparently, but still, it was his family was
going to do this and was his job to make all this happen.
This is something that he had just, you know, and and put in
Lyon who wasn't even born yet. They just made this child
together and the kid isn't even born yet so he's not done.
So he still thinks he's a In Destiny mode basically.
And we also see like barisan in his thoughts, remembers rhaegar
is a great fighter, not it's not just in he tells Danny although
he does that as well. It seems like he's being honest.
When he says that lots of people talk that rhaegar was
legitimately the, that doesn't seem like rewriting history or
just pumping up a dead guy or whatever.
Interestingly. Yeah, Danny does see it?
Here's her version of The House of the undying image of that.
Very thing with a lot of other things mixed in.
Then Phantoms shivered, through the murk images and indigo the
cerie scream does molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled
his mouth at all. Lord with copper skin and silver
gold. Hair.
Stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion.
A burning City behind him. Ruby's flew like drops of blood.
From the chest of a Prince and he sank to his knees in the
water and with his last breath murmured, a woman's name, Mother
of Dragons daughter of death glowing like Sunset.
A red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed.
King who cast? No Shadow a cloth.
Dragon suede on poles, amidst a cheering crowd from a smoking
Tower a great Stone Beast. Took Wing, breathing Shadow
fire, Mother of Dragons. Layer of Lies.
So it's really interesting. I almost didn't have a share
read that second part because it's just all this continuing of
the prophecy that doesn't really or the vision.
It doesn't relate to this directly.
Why you had me continue? Yeah, because it's just so
interesting that it's included with these other things.
Like this is the category it's thrown in its part of this
Dreamscape. So I wanted to frame it show.
What context it was placed in. A lot of it is other targaryens
dying, got rhaegar dying but before that it's her brother
getting the Gold Crown poured on him, then Rago dying.
Her vision of what Rego would have been at all Lord with
copper skin, fiery style and that's a vision of what could
have been regulars. We got Rego dying, viserys
dying, rhaegar dying. It's like she's going back in
time and then it's her and then it's the red sword raised in the
handle. Blue-eyed, King, who cast a
shadow? That's probably Stannis.
And then a class trip was a, maybe a fake version.
That's what we're talking about. Slayer of lies and the other
slave fake version would be a cloth Dragon suede on poles and
it's a cheering crowd, that's probably young Griff and then a
smoking Tower grade stone beasts took Angry and shocked about
what I don't know, but it's probably some other false Dragon
reference. If and these are in three just
write everything here about this vision is in threes.
We got three Targaryen, Prince is dying Rego, rhaegar and
viserys and three false as or hives, perhaps Stannis young
Griff and whoever the smoking Beast is, maybe that's your on
or something. I don't know.
Anyway, don't be so Hasty, I don't know.
Anyway, we're not trying to get me Grace.
Camera could be absolutely Jon connington leading young Griff.
So yeah, these are all positive. Possible things here but it's
super engine that appears admits that that's the point.
We're not trying to figure out what all these things mean right
now if we ever will but it's certainly interesting that it's
frame this way. Included that way.
Then he also just thinks of rhaegar at other times as a
point of comparison like when she's getting ready to unleash,
her battle plans on Marine especially the trick against the
sellsword company against the second son's led by Mira with
the getting them drunk and then doing the night attack.
Danny wonders of rhaegar, was that kind of anxious, the kind
of anxiety that she was feeling in that moment.
She wonders of rhaegar felt that when she saw the usurpers host
cross the Trident. So, again, stats in the Storm of
Swords late in A Storm of Swords.
So she's just still just thinking about rhaegar, there's
brother, she's never met and but she has had dreams of and seen
him in her vision. Need a drops in an additional
Bosworth comparison here, as we pointed out before when Richard
tried to kill Henry personally and she adds a little detail,
Richard actually killed Henry's standard-bearer got him, Sir,
William Brandon and unhorse another tutor supporter John
chain, at one point, Richard was in a apparent within a sword
length of Henry himself and he didn't Retreat, Richard Henry
did. But because he's Sean point out
guys, not to worry. You're like I don't want to
fight you on Medicare Howard. It's just a stupid idea.
You're definitely gonna win. Like, what's why should I do
this? You know, what's the, what's the
logic here? But Readiness is Richard just
kept going, though. You got surrounded by Henry's
bodyguard and just kept on, trying like he didn't give up.
He he was Robert like in his Fury.
This like I'm going to keep going.
Like if I fail I fail, that's it.
For Alegre agar or like bigger. Yes, Nina put in the quote
Richards, quote here when the battle is King.
Or die is one. Very nice.
I like that quads. A good quote or did he actually
ever say that maybe not, but maybe shakes, but it's still
great line. Let's pretend, it's real.
Another good example, this was Alexander, the Great Alexander,
the Great in the Battle of granicus, know the Battle of
gaugamela which was the third and most decisive battle where
he defeated the Persian Empire defeated great, king dries dries
was on the field, their eyes had like seven or eight times more
men. You know, you know, way more
men, but Alexander's men were much higher.
Probably the same kind of thing where the Persian soldiers
didn't have very much morale because they were just like, you
have to come or we will kill you or your family, you know, that
kind of thing. You must be here.
Where is Alexander? They didn't exactly have full
authority over where they were, and where they went, but they
had a lot. They were treated a lot better,
but they were in a foreign land. So he went straight for dries
with his cavalry charge and drives ran away.
It worked. So sometimes that plan does work
cut off the head of the snake plan.
That was his, I believe, that's what we're the.
Let's read it, they're like, cut off that it snake and, and
Alexander almost charged too far.
After him after he kept running like a lie, I'm gonna keep
chasing you and they're like dude slow down.
Bring it back here. They caught him.
Eventually you're gonna get enveloped by the enemy Force.
Yeah, so months later they caught him and one of his own
men had killed him. One of his own, former vassals
killed him. So this is there's military
history supports strategies like this.
This go for the have the main guy goes for the other main guy.
To make it all very decisive and Brenda quickly word spread
quickly, but rhaegar was dead when this case and here is a
quote, birds flew, and Couriers race to Bear word of the victory
at the Ruby Ford. When the news reached the red
keep it was said that are he's cursed, the dornish certain that
Lewin had betrayed radar. He sent his pregnant Queen
rhaella and his younger son and new are the series away to
Dragonstone, but Princess Elia was Forced to remain in King's
Landing with rhaegar's children as a hostage against Dorne.
Hmm so again blaming the dornishman look at this this
area's just can't quit other notable names.
I skipped over some of the results of what happened with
some of these people. Some of them I mentioned
already. Remember like Sir Barton has
saved Wyman manderly his life may have lost his own leg in the
process of doing that Crow food. Ombre was there, both his sons
were killed in the battle Luanne.
Martel. As we say, was killed by Lynn
corbray after taking a lot of wounds.
It's barristan you know recovered and was Robert sent
his master to him. Sort of hearkens to what
happened to gwaine core Beret when Daemon blackfyre defeated
him but didn't kill him. Dwayne Dwayne, Damon and Blaine
mixed together is Dwayne, Damon sent his own Meister to help you
incorporate. And apparently, that's that
delay that bit of nobility is cited as pivotal and losing the
battle. I guess that covers all the
specific mentions ruin. We don't know what like the bow.
Men dead, whether they were specifically involved and this
is one of the reasons why I think a lot of the men that
showed up for the battle didn't really have much to do.
It's not like two full armies clashed because there's a for
there's only a narrow range of Engagement that can happen here.
It's not like a big why, so you're a battle.
Sometimes ancient battles were the front line can be like a
mile. The stretching end to end.
This is not like that. This was a narrow engagement.
Probably now we don't know how exactly how wide the Fords were
in. The Ford can change and its
width from day to day given how high the river is running Hello.
And again, that was one of the Strategic considerations may be,
the Ford was low. And that was like, okay, this is
our chance because we can send a lot of guys at once.
The Rivers High, we can only send a narrow group of people.
Well, they're going to pick that off really easily.
If we can only send a like a narrow column, but if you can
send a wide group, anyway, point being, there's also no
opportunity for like forces to be split or flanking Maneuvers
or anything like that. Reduces the number of different
people involved, right? So the focal area is very small.
The actual engagement is very small as compared to a lot of
other bad. So that's really important to
note so that which is why I think it's very possible that
some of these Lords that showed up had very little to do and
just we're like they could, they could take all the credit and
suffer very little bit. Like, yeah, I was there that
day, never drew my sword, but I was there.
I saw rhaegar, I thought I saw a glimpse of rhaegar and the
distance but that may just been the sunlight.
Here's another quote about what happened of once people realize
like Targaryen loyalists. Think about what there Oh
thinking think about one of the things that was keeping them
loyal and the thing that kept them on their side for one thing
is their oath to follow the king.
That's that's part of it. But you got to think that most
of the Loyalists at least a lot of them were again thinking past
are. He's like, okay, we're not
really fighting for air. He's really fighting Greg are
like this guy's going to be king later.
That's the guy. We really care about is the one
who we think is actually a decent guy.
Now, it's like, oh, he's dead. Harry, still King the morale.
Drop must have been Mass, not only did they lose the battle?
But the guy that they thought was the best.
Better, the to is dead now and all of a sudden they're
supporting the pyromaniac lunatic.
I do that. So many of them are the men that
excited me more about, who they're fighting for some, a lot
of them weren't very excited about this in the first place,
so you can see why they just. Well, here's the quote that
describes the general chaos very succinctly.
Some men on both sides, stop fighting at once.
Leaping, instead into the river to recover, the precious stones
and a general route quickly began as the royalist started
fleeing the field. So, you got to think that, you
know that When one side is running away, that's when the
most casualties happened, that is a very standard truth of
swords, and Spears and arrows type battles.
Probably true of modern gunfire battles to, but different
considerations are used with those anyway.
When people are running away, they're running away their back
is to you. They've dropped a lot of their
heavy stuff. They're not trying to fight you.
So you stabbed him in the back. This is actually when a lot of
people most spring into action because look at what happened
with elder brother. He was looking for another
horse, right? He can't be a knight and we're
not a horse. All these people running away
with their stuff. It's a chance to get easy loot.
It sounds awful, sounds cruel, but it's true.
That guy running away. He's got a nice helmet.
I can get it. I didn't want to fight him and
face-to-face because you might kill me, but now, he's running
away and he's a traitor. So you can kind of easily, maybe
not easily, but you can In the Heat of battle justify what
you're doing. Even though after the fact might
be like, man, I stabbed that guy in the back.
Back that was I wasn't great, was it?
But I'm not going to tell anybody.
And it's like this. It's like, oh yeah, I won that
in battle. He didn't say that.
You pulled it off. A corpse.
You stabbed in the back, you're guessing that maybe Roberts
chilling a rigger, wasn't quite. So, as Nobles, it sounded like a
lot of these other loci everyone's running away.
Let me get some loot type of things happen.
I me find a new horse. Let me get a better spear.
Let me get a jeweled Scabbard. Let me, I don't know.
Lots of possibilities, it's an opportunity to advance in
advance your station in a Old where it's kind of hard to
advance where you're very often stuck in poverty.
So, kind of understand why you would look for an opportunity to
find. Maybe not just a ruby but
there's plenty of things of value on that Battlefield from
Rich dead people. We're just some people just need
new shoes. Again, you got to remember, like
we usually these stories are following the boards and the
Knights, but most of the soldiers in this battle were
just Farmers. They're just people struggling
to get enough food to not starved.
Just got wrangled into this. So just a new pair of shoes or
gloves or something would be a boon to their life.
Yeah. You're totally retro and
totally, right? So remember the blow that failed
elder brother took him out of the action and he floated
Downstream, he claims he was stripped of his Goods.
First like someone did the thing were describing.
He was in full kit when he got knocked unconscious, when he
woke up, he was naked. Someone pulled him out of the
water. Took his armor off and throw him
back in and he floated Downstream to the quiet Isle
where he says, Of rhaegar's rubies foot down.
It's very symbolic. Of course, because the seventh
is maybe meant to refer to sand or six.
Rubies, from the seven gods, the seventh God is the stranger and
Sanders horse is called stranger and yeah again just want to
throw that out there because it's not exactly part in the
sand or something. It's quite a bit later.
He wasn't at the Battle of the Trident.
One thing I want to clarify. I think earlier you said
something like all seven of rhaegar's, rubies were not free.
Yeah in my mind there were dozens and dozens of Ruby's just
six that floated Downstream that they found, they took that as a
symbol, we know, for sure, there was this Heavens.
I think that there were especially the idea that a bunch
of people were scrambling for the rubies.
I think there were probably like dozens of them maybe and I mean
seven well they've since come out now, it's but you're right
there may be but if it's if the entire Dragon was done up and
rubies I think I think it would need more than seven.
I mean but I think that people would be scrambling even if they
were just seven rubies one Ruby is another green to set you up.
And For Life For Life? Yeah, you're totally ready.
Yeah, but if a bunch of people Scramble for them, no one got
any or one person. Got one.
Maybe I I feel like a bunch of people got a bunch.
That is kind of interesting. Things got Downstream and it's
the people who found those six or thinking symbolically like,
there's going to be a seventh. Mmm.
Okay. I can't be sure but that's just
my interest. Could track their showing like
that. Obviously, we don't know for
sure, but I like that I like that interpretation Nina says,
according to Legend after the battle of Bosworth.
Richard's, Crown was found hanging on a Hawthorn.
Thorn bush and Henry was supposed to have been crowned on
the battlefield by supporter and stepfather Lord Stanley.
There still are Stanley mentioned earlier Sean, the the
Lord Frey of equivalent whether or not that actually happened.
It's certainly reminds Nina of the Scramble for rhaegar's
rubies in the waters of the for the happen after the battle.
Yeah. Good call.
Okay, let's talk about little
aftermath a very famous and poetic quote from surgery to set
up a little anecdote here. At the Trident, those brave men,
Becerra spoke of died. Beneath our Dragon banners, did
they give their lives because they believed in Greg ours,
cause or because they had been bought and paid for Danny turned
to Mormont crossed her arms and waited for an answer.
McQueen big man said slowly all you say is true but regular lost
on the Trident, you lost the battle, they lost the war, he
lost his kingdom, he lost his life, his blood swirled down
river with the rubies from his breastplate and Robert the
usurper Road over his corpse to steal the Iron Throne rhaegar
fought valiantly rhaegar fought, nobly and rhaegar fought
honorably and rhaegar died. What a great quote, that's one
of the biggest ones, right? But what your is leaving out is
I was I was on Robertson side and that battle I don't want to
mention it but I was 5 W for the usurper.
I also stepped over the corpse to help him steal.
He's just conveniently, leave that out.
Oh boy. Might also explain why you
didn't get knighted. Like I said, he probably just
didn't buy it like he maybe didn't it was over before he had
a chance to do anything. But Danny's question is a little
flawed. She says, did they give their
lives because they believed in rhaegar's, cause, or because
they had been bought and paid for neither in the Felder
brother. He said, well I was ordered to
be here. I don't really know why exactly,
what side we fought. You know, he says that part was
above him is like way above his pay grade.
He's not even sure like, adhesion so far removed from
that decision. He doesn't even understand it or
have context, he just gets, that's how it works.
And well he was going to be on one side or the other.
That's how it always goes. That shows not to be too much of
a knock-on Danny because she just is Young and naive.
There's just no two ways about it, but it does show that she
doesn't. And again, she's Trying to gain
further understanding she maybe she's being snarky with drawer
here. But she is trying to get some
insight which she needs because she doesn't understand this
idea. That that's not the only two
reasons that people fight. Yeah.
Most of the people in up fighting or just drug into it.
Yeah and of course the context here is she's deciding whether
or not to buy the insult. Yeah, that's important to throw
out there. What's neat about the Ruby.
Ford is it's not the first time that we have a place that gets a
name because of a battle, the red grass feel and the first
black fire bent or better bridge and Meg, oars were versus the
faith, those were not names that existed prior to those
incidents. Nina says perhaps in partly just
in general to point this out but also in reference to Jorah
saying he rode over rhaegar's corpse to steal the Iron Throne.
That's a little unfair. Robert was very known for being
very kind to the defeated. Maybe not right car but
rhaegar's body was cremated which is in line with Targaryen
beliefs. So Robert allowed the normal
barrier practice to happen and of course he also at the same
time, we know he sent his master to help barristan selmy after
Roose. Bolton's.
Like you should cut his throat and read the room ruse.
This is Robert Baratheon. He pardons everyone.
Like it's, he's famous kind of famous for that, like for making
friends and do people still to this to the beginning of the
story before. Robert said they're like Robert
had a really good at turning friends into foes into friends
and people still some remember. Someone said that Stannis his
face they're like don't do that. Don't bring that up to Stannis
like I said this is not good at that.
He was kind of jealous of that. Status is more likely to turn
friends in the photos. And phone in the friends.
Another interesting note in the aftermath of that, Bosworth
battle Henry did, at first start off purging enemies.
But he, he switched and eventually sadhana doesn't
matter if I'm guessing before joining forces.
With me now, little little conciliation there, which is
kind of a, that's why Jerry, it's called conciliar.
He did that sort of thing quite a bit need.
Also Point, that's very important.
They burned rhaegar's body publicly as well, from a
political standpoint because you don't want someone showing up
pretending to be rhaegar. The prince really die.
You know, was it, you know, that kind of thing just to be
absolutely sure. No one client comes comes along
later and claims to be rhaegar because as we saw, someone did
come along later and claim to be rhaegar sons of this sort of
thing does happen. There's like oh yeah I could do
that with his kid to hmm. Nina says another Bosworth
comparison here following the end of the battle and the death
of King Richard. His body was stripped naked and
exposed rubber to see that he had died.
Just prove it was him naked on - remove all doubt.
It may have been treated substantially.
Be worse than rhaegar's was. Of course we don't actually hear
about regards corpse being treated badly but Richards, Corp
seem to have sustained. Some symbolic mutilations, which
kind of part of the medieval and ancient world that you do that.
You desecrated corpse. I'm going to argue that.
So, wherever did, I'm gonna argue?
He just smashed his hammer to his chest multiple times after
he was already dead anyway. I can see it.
I really could. It's a great.
I've never, I've never heard that before, Shawn, but it
really does fit again. It's one of those things that
can't be sure. But really does, Robert thought
of himself as a hero is a good segue to that and As we've been
saying, there's a lot of reasons for him to think that way he was
doing the kind of things that you're supposed to do, when
you're treated the way he was traded, you know, if you look at
it in a, from a narrower perspective, so Noble Behavior,
like this was just part and parcel of his approach.
He's already kind of this kind of, man.
He didn't do it because it was politically expedient.
Robert isn't really like that. Robert just probably doesn't get
Coke. Stir.
He's just as bad as Robert is he had a lot of great qualities and
those were really on display at this stage.
Craig, Charisma forgiveness, that's a big one Mercy.
But also just he's a lack of guile, which I think it kind of
appreciate that sometimes like a guy who just always speaks his
mind. Sometimes, it's rude, it's
boorish, it's insulting, it's annoying, but at least it's not
dishonest, you know, it's on his mind and I think, at the time,
like this, it works really well, because he's like, I'm, you
know, he's like, I'm revenging Liana.
We're in the just, you know, he's gonna yell all the right
things to get people fired up, and they would agree with him.
And no one's going to think of him as a liar, because he's just
such a forthright guy, even if he His flaws hadn't emerged yet
by this point. So yeah, we talked about the
pardon of Ruth's Nina says it's a brilliant move immediately and
maybe in ten with Burning rhaegar's Body Route
demonstrated he was not here to exact Vengeance or universally
condemned. Those would fought for the
targaryens. It was just establish something
new and better. Give a little bit of continuity
by having not only did he pardoned beerus and he named him
the new Lord Commander so that was a simple as just a regular
pardon, you may continue. It was your now my number one.
You fought right next to rhaegar you fought well for rhaegar do
that for me and he did, I mean Robert bears in did stay loyal
to Robert until Cersei rip his will up and they fired him right
now. Bears and also would have gotten
very upset, had he been there for the murder of seeing the
drape, the bodies of the Lannister of the Targaryen
children but he had he was still recovering from his wounds.
So that was kind of a convenient bit of Separation there, but
beerus until does remember that and thanks for has a moment of
rage. When thinking about it.
So let's talk about the last little bit here.
The Lion and the Kraken Tywin had been weighed most likely he
had Scouts. Like we said, the other armies
were probably aware of him being there but more likely, if not
both, if only one Tywin knew where they were and they didn't
know where he was still, I think they all knew where they all
were. But if any if anyone was
concealed, it was tired. So, as he explained it, I think
that Tyrion and others, maybe they had to make it absolutely
clear, whose side they were. Iran and they didn't do that by
a great display of loyalty to Robert.
They did it with a great dramatic insult bit of violence
against the targaryens to make sure that no one's ever going to
believe that this house will side with the targaryens again,
or that the Dark Ages would accept them.
Because of what they've done, and that was taiwan's thinking,
like, do something brutal and Savage, no one's ever going to
consider us as fighting with them.
Again, our loyalty can be depended on it because how could
we possibly work with them? How would they ever accept us
back that meant doing this dirty work stuff that Robert didn't
want to be seen doing because he's again painted as a hero so
Tywin, not only saw the opportunity to get in good with
the new regime and to completely divorce themselves from the old
one, he stepped in and did something that he knew Robert
wouldn't want to do. And he used his worst men to do
it. He sends her Amory lorch and
Gregor Clegane. Yeah, yikes.
Now that one's pretty well-known, they sack of King's
Landing would have next pycelle. Was like, yeah, let him in virus
was like, don't let him in and for once virus, was there were
the one who was right and pycelle.
Parser myself, virus was raised, like don't let him tie.
So I was like, no, that's Taiwanese here to help us, you
know, by sellers has to high opinion if I win.
And buyers like know they're going to that dude is here to do
what what he did first immediately knew what was up and
yeah, Bart Bart was right. So lesser-known though is that
Kel on gradual father of bail on your on Victorian and them did a
very similar thing. His sons pushed him to join the
war during it appealing to him in a variety of ways, loot,
honor, anything just reasons. They just really wanted to get
involved is, hey, we want to go fight, we want to be involved,
it didn't work. Work though until rhaegar's
death and that which point again bail on your on returner like
the darker and you're done. We gotta do something.
We got a bit, a prove our where we stand, kind of like what time
was doing be loot. The same sort of everyone's
running away in the microcosm, everybody running away in the
battle, now's our chance to stab them in the back and grab stuff.
Same, same. Same here for the ironborn.
They're like the reach is flailing.
They've just lost was, get them, and that's what happened.
Attack some loyalists prove where you're at, ironically,
which is always the right phrase to use when discussing the
ironborn. They didn't attack at full
strength because they were concerned with what the
Lannisters with you. Cops Lancers, we're doing the
same thing, they're doing even more ironically, Kel on was
killed in this fairly meaningless Skirmish where
they're just trying to get some loot from The Shield Islanders,
which is a nice Prelude to your on coming back to the shield
Islands, many years later. But Kevin's death right there in
this meaningless Skirmish at the day Lon ascended, Sison chair.
Just as Robert was ascending the Iron Throne setting the stage
for his Rebellion. Seven years later.
At the start, we showed a number of examples of the battle of the
Trident right at the beginning of A Song of Ice and Fire in
several point of views. Does it continue to be mentioned
a lot for books later even after George is expanded story so
much? Absolutely, yes, perhaps Ned
didn't like thinking about it too much.
The memories of it are two adjacent to memories of Liana.
It's bitter. He doesn't want to think about
that. But Coddington, his bitter
memories are fuel. That's what drives him for a
chance to set things, right? At least you know the way he
sees it quote, Robert Escape me and cut down rhaegar in the
Trident. I failed the father he said, but
I would not fail to Son but he's not the only one check out this
quote from sir, barristan I swore no oath to Dorne Ser
barristan told himself, but Lou and Martel had been his sworn
brother back in the days when the bonds between the kingsguard
still went deep. I could not help Prinsloo in on
the Trident, but I can help his nephew.
Now that didn't work out. So greater that's quite an March
hell. He's talking about.
He did try though. He did tells like, dude, you
should leave. But yeah, I mean, it would have
been like, telling Robert to leave or rhaegar, not to go
after Robert like he's just, he's gonna do this.
He's gonna try for the dragon, whatever.
Will I do think there's a new human exactly what he was going
to do. He just thought he was going to
persist trying to marry Daenerys.
If he knew he was gonna go for the dragons, he might try
something else and if maybe embarrassing knew Robert,
rhaegar was gonna go straight for Robert.
Maybe you didn't know that, maybe didn't know that was going
to happen. Maybe that was something rhaegar
kept to himself. We can talk about prophecy and
foreshadow because of the fact that the battle of the Trident
so Echoes throughout the story might mean, there's going to be
some maybe rehashing, or maybe it's going to have a parallel to
something that happens or multiple parallel things that
have yet to come. For example, Danny seeing his
death in a vision. What about what's going to come
with regards to that? There's a prophecy stated around
the time of the dance of the Dragons.
It said many had heard the prophecy that the hammer would
smash the dragon that has its own Relevance in that timeline,
but of course it's easy to look at that.
Be like, oh, they were talking about 150 years later when
Robert killed rhaegar, but of course, like a lot of prophecies
written about in history books. It was probably a post facto
prophecy, something invented after the fact, but maybe not in
a world that actually has prophecies.
You can't throw the idea out a most mysterious possibility
exists for us in the future of A Song of Ice and Fire.
Consider this dream of Danny's. That night, she dreamt that she
was rhaegar writing to the Trident but she was mounted on a
dragon. Not a horse.
When she saw the usurpers rebel host across the river, they were
armored all in ice but she bathed them in dragon fire and
they melted away like Dew and turned the Trident into a
torrent. Some small part of her knew that
she was dreaming but another part exalted.
This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare and I
have only now awaken. So she discovers quaithe in the
room with her shortly. After inquest says, no one else
is going to see you own or else going to hear me only I can see
you early. You can see me which makes it
very much sound like a projection from a glass candle
because it's the only mechanism we know of the can do that.
So this is perhaps part of quaithe encouraging Danny to
take on her guess any as as or high which might point to it
being a direct thing. Coming in the future of her,
battling the others at the Trident.
I would about would mean they got really far south.
Or maybe it's just her Trident is Winterfell where she'll
battle them up there or her Trident is the wall.
The wall could be seen as a river.
Frozen River, maybe in a Dreamscape.
I don't know if possibilities here.
The point is, it doesn't have to literally be the try.
But it could be, which would be pretty amazing.
No matter what happens, even if battles to come are more
impactful and more memorable than the battle of the Trident,
it's unlikely. The people of Westeros will
forget about anytime soon and it will probably continue to get
mentioned here and there and a dream of spring and a dance of
dragons and whatever else gets written.
George's James says, I think the symbolism of six and one missing
Works multiple ways. There's this thing with the
stranger but also the idea of one being missing hints at jaw
and being part of rhaegar's bloodline being missing
especially if he if aegon young Griff is denoted as aegon the
sixth and John would potentially be egg on the 7th.
Yeah. Well a couple a couple things
have power to make that happen for dimple.
His name has to actually be egg on which is no sure thing but it
you can see how that would fit. Yeah.
Cole Nikki says, they will find the seven through being
strangers manure headcanon. We're more like a scan, in this
case asked Hannon. Yikes.
What about of devices that lets the kind of ordinance that I
don't want to face. Hmm, maybe you do, oh, maybe you
do. Do what clean things up a lot
next week with our Lower the Blessed episode who would never
speak of such things. Everything he does is pure white
and clean and virgin. Holy hmm virgin holy virgin holy
yes I made that one word or is it hyphenated virgin bashful?
Yeah. Why don't why is olive oil extra
virgin? What does that even mean Jones
ever even thought about sleeping with it?
Yeah, okay trivia question, let's wrap that one here.
I think I bet a few people got this.
One question again was, which Rebel slew three landed Lords
and or Knights of the narrow sea in the dial on?
The answer is Lord. Jason McCallister.
Yes. Some people did get that.
Yes, it's sad when Catelyn sees him, passing cows in disguise
with sir Roderick and Jason Alistair passes by and she's a
little like, oh well he recognized me and he doesn't but
she thinks about how he rides a horse, like a man who has never
known fear and how he threw. Three of rhaegar's Bannerman on
the Trident like, hey, that guy, don't forget about him.
He's still alive. By the way that dude that dudes
around he still to the Lord to see guard.
He's the Father. Patrick m'allister Patrick's the
one who befriended Theon much too large, asons Chagrin, he's
like, you know, we fight our whole purpose.
We're see guard like we were built to defend against iron
more. In fact I killed theon's brother
Lord Jason. And remember, I'm Patrick is
like, is that a problem between us?
He's like, you I only say that because you never knew my
brother was like if you're my brother you would think?
No that's not a problem. I have no loyalty towards that
guy so yeah that was Mehran. Mariner Roderick Roderick was
one of them was killed attacking.
See guard which talked about going like a dumb thing to do.
Let's attack the castle built to defeat us and the other one died
in the defense of Pike at when the war was ending anyway.
So yes. Next week, baelor, the blessed
with Nina that's going to be a lot of fun, very different style
topic but we're still talking. Targaryens, they'll be some
dreams and prophecies involved because we know those were in
his head, his style of vision and prophecy was a bit more of
the seven and a little less of dragons.
But we got to figure some dragons.
May have gotten in there to some other episodes we mentioned that
you want to stay immersed. Blackfyre Rebellion Series, has
some very serious and similar Echoes, especially the red grass
field battle episode, which you have a little more detail on the
actual battle there, but it's still a different style episode.
A lot of LR we Rita's stuff would come up here, Danny's
house of the undying chapters which are any Clash of Kings
that I think that's for fourth chapter, Jon connington chapters
of course Ned barristan. So really Valerie Des is full of
opportunities to immerse yourself in these related topics
rather than some of our standard scripted or weekly episodes.
But your mileage may vary. And you choose what you like, we
appreciate it. Anyway, we always thank you for
listening. Thanks as well to those of you
who support us financially on patreon or Spotify, you can
become a member and get access to bonus episodes.
That's certainly another way to get immersed.
Our large bonus episode catalog is available to on either
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through You can make your website or just support our
sponsors, while brilliant or any of the other sponsors you see us
listed on our website. Big thanks to Nina for her notes
today. Check out good Queen Alia
tumblr.com and check her out live next week on the show.
Thanks to Joey Jesse and brand for our music and intros.
Thanks to Michael Clare felt as well for the intro.
And for our Maps, Michael is such a great contributor to all
the things that make our show look more, you know, real
stormlands right now Now, yeah, that's right.
Sighting, I just wanted to say that.
I've got my tin one minute movie reviews up for the different
Academy. Award nominees dancing, Sean on
YouTube. I'll drop them.
I'm gonna drop a link to that in the chat but y'all if you had
trouble finding actually mentioned last time, it's
because dancing. Shawn is one bird and it's Ean
likes me. There are a lot of ways to spell
Sean, but yeah, if you look up in two words, won't find it.
Also sometimes YouTube thinks you're looking for dancing scene
and especially with movies, it Have dancing scenes and looks
like a lot of movies have dancing scenes in them.
Yes, there's only one dancing show.
That's so yeah, check out dancing.
Sean's reviews of the best pictures.
He's very good at and you're been getting the steadily better
at it all the time. Just your more, you work on
this, the stronger, your content gets and that's a great thing.
So, yeah, folks, Sean's movie reviews are really good.
That's it. Everybody will see you next week
for more than you know what to do.
Well, our rear Enos.