1 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:51,040 Varys or Varys or Varys or yeah, another. 2 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:53,720 One of these names that it's not quite like Celtagar. 3 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:56,480 Celtagar. But no one actually argues over 4 00:00:56,480 --> 00:00:58,040 this one but Varys. That's what we're talking about 5 00:00:58,040 --> 00:00:59,080 today. It varies. 6 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:00,960 It's It varies. Yes, it does. 7 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:06,720 An orphan owned by a mummer's troop and sold in turn to a man 8 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:09,560 for use in a strange ritual that required. 9 00:01:09,960 --> 00:01:12,880 Making him into a eunuch. From there, he was left to die. 10 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:15,720 But vowed to live. We'll ask how we wound up on the 11 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:18,280 streets in the 1st place if there isn't perhaps more to his 12 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:20,040 ancestry than his apparent because. 13 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:24,000 That might explain why he of all these orphan children was chosen 14 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:25,520 for this. And that brings us to another 15 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:27,320 central theme about virus, something that we'll have to 16 00:01:27,320 --> 00:01:29,840 keep in mind throughout the entire episode. 17 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:33,280 It's an example of why we should be questioning what he's told 18 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:35,320 Tyrion and others about his youth. 19 00:01:35,320 --> 00:01:37,880 In other words, should we believe that story about the 20 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:41,000 sorcerer when we ask questions like why wasn't it some other 21 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:42,680 kid? Is that the wrong question? 22 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:44,880 Are we falling for it like Tyrion did? 23 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:48,240 Why isn't the question Is this story even true in the 1st 24 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:50,000 place? Before we ask the question of 25 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:52,240 why not some other kid, maybe we should be asking that question 26 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:54,440 first. Both questions are valid, but 27 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:57,280 let's not forget one by getting caught up in the story and 28 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:00,800 believing it at face value. I mean, Varus calls himself 29 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:04,280 indirectly the most devious man in the Seven Kingdoms, and few 30 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:08,120 readers would challenge that. Which means we'd be fools to 31 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:11,560 believe he's telling Tyrion the absolute truth or the complete 32 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:14,240 truth. And Ditto goes for Illyria, who 33 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:17,720 also tells Tyrion quite a few things about himself and Varys 34 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:20,160 and their shared history. And one of the few things we can 35 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:22,720 trust about that part is that they've been working together 36 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:25,360 for a long time, and they probably know how to keep their 37 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:27,840 stories straight because they've been working together for a long 38 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:30,600 time and have been successful in their various endeavors. 39 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:34,080 But by the same token, A dishonest person isn't always 40 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:37,600 lying, like some of the things Varys has said are true. 41 00:02:37,640 --> 00:02:41,000 I mean, just because we're dubious about some of what he 42 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:42,600 says doesn't mean we should discard it all. 43 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:45,920 We should just take a closer look and see if we can figure 44 00:02:45,920 --> 00:02:50,240 out what might be suspect, what might be truth, and see what we 45 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:51,880 can do with that. It's one of the things that 46 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:54,160 makes Varus such a great character. 47 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:57,440 The second most devious man in the Seven Kingdoms is 48 00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:00,680 Littlefinger, according to Varus, and he's a great 49 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:02,200 character too. But personally, I find Varus a 50 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:04,120 lot more intriguing and unique of the two. 51 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:07,760 And that's partly because we know what Littlefinger wants a 52 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:10,360 lot of it's gross and a lot of it's kind of standard. 53 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:12,240 Like he wants power as much as he can get, right? 54 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:15,560 That's kind of ordinary for, you know, fiction or real life. 55 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:18,680 People want power, right? But Varys like, what's he doing? 56 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:20,160 What's his goal? Why? 57 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:23,400 What's his motivation? He's not like after some girl 58 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:26,120 like like little like Littlefinger was. 59 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:30,480 He wasn't jilted as a youngster over, you know, some woman he 60 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:32,800 was in love with. Like that doesn't seem to be his 61 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:34,840 motivation at all. We kind of have those answers 62 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:37,320 for Littlefinger. But for virus, it's like, what? 63 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:38,400 What was it? You know what? 64 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:41,080 What are these things still like, Littlefinger? 65 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:44,760 Like most people, he is very likely motivated and shaped by 66 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:46,920 what happened to him. As a child and as a. 67 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:49,000 Teenager as 'cause that goes for everyone, right? 68 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:52,040 Formative years. So we'll have some time for his 69 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:55,680 early adulthood as well as that, but that comes with the caveat 70 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:57,440 that the timeline's pretty loose here. 71 00:03:57,440 --> 00:03:59,160 We don't know how old he is. We don't know how there's. 72 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:00,640 A lot of dates. That are kind of unsure we have 73 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:04,680 to kind of use ranges rather than specific dates, but that's 74 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:05,840 all very good for Sean. You have something to. 75 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:07,360 ADD we might need another caveat. 76 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:10,520 Almost everything was said about him, just not the story that he 77 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:13,200 told Tyrion, or where he heard from, Malaria or whatever. 78 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:16,120 Almost all of it needs to include, ostensibly. 79 00:04:16,399 --> 00:04:18,959 Yes, yes. Even basic things like having 80 00:04:18,959 --> 00:04:21,720 come from this may or may not be true. 81 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:23,440 Like did he? Really know for sure if that's 82 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:25,440 even true or even if he did come from list. 83 00:04:25,840 --> 00:04:28,280 Maybe he came from 7 different places, but that's the one he 84 00:04:28,280 --> 00:04:30,440 singled out, the one he remembers best, or whatever it 85 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:32,080 is so. Yeah, you're totally right. 86 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:34,720 It's Everything has to be taken with a grain of salt because 87 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:38,520 everything we know about virus's youth comes from virus. 88 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:42,240 Except for a few things that come from Illyrio, which really 89 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:43,760 isn't any better. So. 90 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:48,000 So we won't be covering his time as the master whispers for 91 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:51,240 Aries, let alone during A Song of Ice and Fire when he 92 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:53,120 considers himself the most devious man in the Seven 93 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:54,920 Kingdoms. But we will discuss how he 94 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:58,320 earned the skills that enabled him to move up to those lofty 95 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:00,760 heights later in life. So we've got all that and. 96 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:06,600 More on this episode of History of Westeros podcast Hello and 97 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:10,080 welcome back, everybody. Another great episode, I hope. 98 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:12,640 We have for you. Today a very fun character to 99 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:15,520 discuss, one that you couldn't possibly, at least we couldn't 100 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:20,360 possibly do in a single episode, hence the format that we started 101 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:24,360 with the neducation episode. This is along those same lines. 102 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:28,560 Virus is a bit older than Ned, but the point being, their early 103 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:31,960 life is very interesting, very formative and worth diving into. 104 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:36,400 We are here almost every Sunday at 3:00 Eastern streaming on 105 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:38,960 YouTube. Afterwards you can find an 106 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:43,120 edited version of the video on Spotify or the audio only 107 00:05:43,280 --> 00:05:46,320 episode version available anywhere you listen to podcasts, 108 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:48,840 but if you listen on Patreon, it's ad free. 109 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:51,160 Sean, I see you have a nice House with the Dragon shirt on. 110 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:55,200 I've got a Dunkin Egg shirt today, and ashea you've got some 111 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:56,480 spider verse. Nice. 112 00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:58,720 Oh, good for today. Yeah, I do. 113 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:01,360 Yeah, you're right. I actually just wear it's my 114 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:04,680 across the Spider verse like sweatshirt that I love very 115 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:07,840 much. But I didn't even consider that 116 00:06:07,840 --> 00:06:10,800 it is relevant for Varys the Spider. 117 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:14,920 Sean did not not even occur to me at the Spider Man. 118 00:06:15,280 --> 00:06:20,080 I almost, I was like sliver away from buying a Spider Man shirt 119 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:22,240 at Disney World. I wish now I had gotten it. 120 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:23,680 I would have worn it for the stream for sure. 121 00:06:24,840 --> 00:06:26,320 Yeah, but we're the House of the Dragon one. 122 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:28,640 I don't really have a good virus appropriate shirt. 123 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:31,360 They've got some new word on House of the Dragon, so I 124 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:32,800 thought that might add to the hype. 125 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:35,360 I wish we were getting more word on Duncan Egg, though, I tell 126 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:36,000 you. You know, it's funny. 127 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:38,320 I have a Mazzari, a shirt and not a virus shirt. 128 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:41,920 I have a Rohan Weber shirt, so I have That's a spider. 129 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:42,960 On it. That's a spider. 130 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:44,760 You're right, Weber. That's a good point. 131 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:47,480 Trying to do research for this episode, I used to search an ice 132 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:50,960 and fire to look for spider and all kinds of giant spiders in 133 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:52,920 the north came up. Yeah, the ice spiders. 134 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:56,560 From Dunkin Egg stories came up, but plenty of virus talk also. 135 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:59,080 Virus is such a master of disguise that he's actually an 136 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:01,680 ice spider in disguise. Yeah, he's actually just a 137 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:04,240 secret ice spider. You see our secret Targaryens? 138 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:06,080 He's a secret ice spider. That's. 139 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:07,200 Right. I will tell you, a lot of the 140 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:11,680 spider talk that didn't necessarily apply to virus was 141 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:15,520 pale spiders or white spiders. They did say that a lot and I. 142 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:19,600 Big as hounds. Yeah, yeah, Mars is as big as a 143 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:22,480 hound, right? He's got. 144 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:25,960 But I am half wondering if Martin was like planting some 145 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:28,560 seed or creating some parallel. Same thing with the little 146 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:31,880 birds, because a bunch of, you know, Sansa talk comes up with 147 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:33,680 she. Gets called Little Bird by by 148 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:36,520 Sandor, yeah. She's like a child that's being 149 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:40,240 manipulated that without realizing it even maybe is 150 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:43,520 revealing secrets and so on. So I think there's Martin. 151 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:45,560 May not have done it intentionally, but he had to 152 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:47,640 scratch his head. Maybe even tried to not do it 153 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:49,680 intentionally to keep it from happening, I bet. 154 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:52,320 Absolutely. So yeah, So we've got a lot of 155 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:54,520 fun stuff to talk about. Shout out to our friend Nina, of 156 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:56,000 course. Good Queen Ally with 157 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:58,080 1l.tumblr.com. Her. 158 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:02,160 Latest blog post is relevant to her username, Good Queen 159 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:04,280 Allison. It's a discussion question she 160 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:10,800 got on the proposed marriages for Jaharis before he eloped 161 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:13,800 with Good Queen Ali, who of course hadn't yet earned that 162 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:15,880 nickname at the time. But there were a lot of kind of 163 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:19,760 odd suggestions for marriages to Jaharis that imply some 164 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:23,840 political shenanigans, or hopefully people hoping to pull 165 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:25,800 off some shenanigans because they obviously didn't succeed in 166 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:27,720 that. So it's a it's an interesting 167 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:30,000 question and a very good answer. Check that out good 168 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:33,960 queenalley.tumblr.com If you have questions for us, you can 169 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:36,360 ask them live. Ashay will often take note of 170 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:39,400 them in the chat there and and put them up for us, but you can 171 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:42,760 also send them later to us at westeroshistory@gmail.com or 172 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:44,360 just interact with us on our Discord. 173 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:47,880 Or on our Facebook group. On X on Patreon, any of the 174 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:51,440 different ways we will see it. And of course, I'll mention some 175 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:55,280 episodes at the end of this one that relate to this one, as we 176 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:58,400 often do our trivia question, which will also give the answer 177 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:01,680 at the end of the episode with Dune on the brain for many of 178 00:09:01,680 --> 00:09:04,480 us, and having just released our collab with Alt Shift. 179 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:06,400 XI thought I'd throw y'all a bit of a. 180 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:10,360 Curveball. Which Dune character do I refer 181 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:13,080 to as the best parallel to Illyrio Mopatus? 182 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:17,240 That of course, usually I give the answer in the episode. 183 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:19,400 This time I'm giving the answer in that episode. 184 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:22,120 So if you've listened to that when you know the answer or you 185 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:24,160 might get a guess anyway. Throughout A Song of Ice and 186 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:27,360 Fire, Varys has shown skill at mummery in many forms. 187 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:30,920 Physical appearance, his odor, mannerisms, voices, everything 188 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:33,960 that goes into a person. He's also extremely astute at 189 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:37,360 reading people, learning their intentions and desires and 190 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:40,680 therefore their weaknesses. He has done so while concealing 191 00:09:40,680 --> 00:09:41,240 his. Own. 192 00:09:41,560 --> 00:09:44,480 He's a man who understands the value of secrets and terms that 193 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:47,000 go far beyond wealth. It's part of what led him to 194 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:50,640 such great heights in the 1st place, and rising from so little 195 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:53,560 allegedly taught him the value of struggle in terms of 196 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:56,720 character, building, self-sufficiency, independence, 197 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:02,520 seeing society from a variety of angles and different. 198 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:06,760 Rungs on the ladder, the social ladder, experiencing aspects of 199 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:09,600 life that most high born that do not even come close to, don't 200 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:12,280 even really acknowledge is is a fact of life for a lot of 201 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:14,040 people. So he's had a very. 202 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:17,600 Different life than a lot of people who are at court, even if 203 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:19,560 he's lying to us. And he's, he's seen it from 204 00:10:19,560 --> 00:10:22,640 different cultures too, right? Like, there's not only a 205 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:26,600 difference in like levels of agency or whatever when you talk 206 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:29,760 about wealth, but there's those differences will be even more 207 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:34,680 different in a slave city versus, you know, even within 208 00:10:34,680 --> 00:10:36,280 Westeros. It can be different beyond the 209 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:39,600 Wall or, you know, and the Highgarden or Dorne and so on. 210 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:43,120 So he, he maybe hasn't experienced all of those, but 211 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:45,920 he's experienced more variety than more other people. 212 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:48,200 So to better understand those differences even within 213 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:50,440 Westeros. Especially most Lords and ladies 214 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:54,160 whom he operates around and deals with all the time, all the 215 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:55,480 time, on a daily basis, etcetera. 216 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:57,880 Those, the people who are born wealthy, born privileged, they 217 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:01,360 have no idea what it's like other than maybe intellectually 218 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:03,040 to these things. They certainly don't know how it 219 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:07,200 feels now. It's shades of what Dunk said to 220 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:09,000 Prince Makar at the end of the Hedge Night. 221 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:11,680 He said, you know, he's like, well, no, you should come be my 222 00:11:11,680 --> 00:11:13,840 Squire, you know, and travel around or not be my Squire, 223 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:16,440 travel around with me and take care of my, you know, be my son 224 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:17,680 and all that and be at Summer Hall. 225 00:11:17,680 --> 00:11:20,200 And he's like, I think he'd learn more if we were out on the 226 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:22,000 road, you know, sleeping in ditches. 227 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:23,360 And he's like, he's a Prince. How could she? 228 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:26,080 He shouldn't do those things. He's like, I bet Arian never 229 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:28,000 had, never slept in a ditch, you know, I bet. 230 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:31,520 And Makar's like all. Those other Princess. 231 00:11:31,680 --> 00:11:35,720 And he and he stalks off but absolutely agrees because the 232 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:38,080 next day don't egg shows up. He's like, I'm ready to go. 233 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:40,560 Yeah. So this is same vibe there. 234 00:11:40,560 --> 00:11:42,680 Like Makar kind of understand. Got the point there. 235 00:11:42,680 --> 00:11:45,520 But it didn't occur to him until it was suggest he's like, you 236 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:47,240 know, that's a good point. You know, I'm not going to admit 237 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:49,320 to it, 'cause I'm proud, but you're totally right. 238 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:52,200 And this is, this is the same thing that Varus was trying to 239 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:56,480 impart to his claim in Aegon. And of course, Aegon isn't going 240 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:57,840 to enter in this episode a whole. 241 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:00,800 Lot, because Aegon wasn't even born before. 242 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:04,800 Varus came to Westeros, but there's parallels to Aegon with 243 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:06,800 Varus himself, let alone other characters. 244 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:09,760 So there is a lot of we're going to have to look at his current 245 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:12,960 situation in order to look back. And of course, that's what we 246 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:16,160 have to do with all of this, because all of Varus's youth is 247 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:17,760 a matter of what we've been told. 248 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:20,160 None of it we've seen. So looking at Varus's youth is a 249 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:22,920 challenge, because not only is it all just been told to us, we 250 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:25,600 have so much reason to question it, There's so much context. 251 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:26,800 We. Have to take into account with 252 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:29,240 his back story. And when he's telling you 253 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:30,560 stories, that's a really big deal. 254 00:12:30,560 --> 00:12:35,200 Like when he tells Tyrion the story of how when he was cut, I 255 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:37,320 think is really important. It's almost as important as the 256 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:39,920 story itself, because the first time Tyrion asked him, he he's 257 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:41,080 like, I'll tell you some other time. 258 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:43,560 And then when he actually tells him, it's at a moment that's 259 00:12:43,560 --> 00:12:45,000 pretty pivotal. It's like before the Battle of 260 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:47,240 the Blackwater, when a lot of things are kind of up in the air 261 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:49,640 and maybe there's a reason not to, like viruses, loyalty should 262 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:52,000 be questioned. So he goes on, goes on and talks 263 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:53,720 about this anyway. We'll deal with that when we get 264 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:56,680 to the ritual. But the point is, Tyrion's 265 00:12:56,680 --> 00:12:58,880 almost always the one that Virus is telling you stories to. 266 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:02,400 Most of what we know about Virus's youth is specifically 267 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:04,680 told to Tyrion, Not just other characters. 268 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:06,880 Tyrion, right? Not, not really. 269 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:08,360 Other characters now. That's going to change probably 270 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:09,840 in the long term. I expect Virus will have 271 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:14,080 conversations with Danny and others, but that doesn't mean 272 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:16,320 that he'll talk about his youth, Doesn't mean he'll talk about 273 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:17,760 his background. He he might. 274 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:21,400 I don't know that we can count on Eddard's another one. 275 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:23,480 He has conversation with virus, but virus's. 276 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:25,960 Past does not come up and those kind of Eddard doesn't ask about 277 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:28,160 his past, Virus doesn't volunteer information about his 278 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:29,840 past, so it just doesn't come up. 279 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:33,280 So again, it's really just these Tyrion chapters are the meat of 280 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:35,120 it, and that's something to take note. 281 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:39,640 Of it's worth pointing out that even if we have to distrust a 282 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:42,760 lot of virus says I think there's an interesting irony 283 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:47,000 that we also should I think trust a lot of what he says most 284 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:50,880 of what he says Tyrion himself points out I think it was when 285 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:52,880 when Forest was testifying against him. 286 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:57,200 Maybe Tyrion points out that a lie mixed with a half truth is 287 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:00,120 better than a straight out lie. Because when there are parts of 288 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:03,720 it that are true for sure that people know and corroborate and 289 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:06,600 in the lies mixed in with that it's easier to accept the lie. 290 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:08,960 When you just say something that's kind of out of nowhere or 291 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:11,600 hard to believe it's easier to dismiss as a lie. 292 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:13,440 But when you mix it in with a bunch of other stuff, that is 293 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:16,040 true. And so Tyrion understands that 294 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:18,920 virus has got to also understand that Laura probably too. 295 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:21,720 So he probably mostly tells the truth and every now and then 296 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:24,880 slip some something that's at least a little dishonest or 297 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:28,160 incomplete. So as much as we want to throw 298 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:31,160 shade and everything he says, I still feel like we probably 299 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:34,360 should trust like 95% of it. Maybe when it comes down to it, 300 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:36,000 you know I. I feel like there's more. 301 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:38,240 It's more likely he's left things out than he's completely 302 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:40,720 made things up. But surely some things are 303 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:43,320 made-up, you know, and and we'll try to do our best at maybe you 304 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:45,840 look flagging things that are more likely than others to be 305 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:47,400 false. Like, who else has left stuff 306 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:49,000 out? Ned, of course. 307 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:50,840 But do we distrust everything he says? 308 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:52,920 Because we know for sure there's certain things he left out 309 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:55,160 right? And even when people try to be 310 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:59,240 honest, they they end up having biases and misremembering stuff 311 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:01,000 and you know, they want to put their best foot forward. 312 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:03,760 There's all these things that aren't unique to virus that 313 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:06,760 might make us mistrust some of it, but not all of it. 314 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:08,200 Just like every other character so. 315 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:10,880 Well said, Yeah. So I do think we're going to get 316 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:13,480 more on virus eventually. I think George is definitely 317 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:15,320 going to leave us in the dark about some things. 318 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:18,040 That's just the nature of of how he writes and how a lot of 319 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:19,560 authors write. We're not going to get a full 320 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:22,840 dossier on Virus his whole life by the end, but I definitely 321 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:25,360 think we'll learn more than we have, and some of it might be to 322 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:27,880 expose some of these lies. After all, Danny is the Slayer 323 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:30,440 of lies in her vision, and one of those lies is Prince Aegon, 324 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:33,040 the Cloth Dragon on pole, supposedly, and and Varus and 325 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:34,720 Illyrio are the ones holding those poles. 326 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:37,880 So. The he She probably won't only 327 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:40,160 slay the lie. That Aegon isn't Rhaegar's son. 328 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:42,520 If that's in fact the case, there's other lies. 329 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:43,840 Slayer. She's that Slayer of lie. 330 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:48,760 She's Slayer of lies. So yeah, So let's look at what 331 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:51,120 we've been told so far. Consider the source, consider 332 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:54,040 the target, the listeners, the target audience of of viruses 333 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:57,160 stories. And then we'll question it. 334 00:15:57,800 --> 00:15:59,360 And and and. Review it and flip it over. 335 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:00,960 Turn it around. See how it looks. 336 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:03,480 It's been a long tradition for us to point out when a character 337 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:06,160 or place or thing appears for the first time in A Song of Ice 338 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:08,600 and Fire or Fire and Blood, if that's the case, or World of Ice 339 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:09,680 and Fire. Hedge night whatever. 340 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:11,800 But that's not our focus today, since we're aiming at the 341 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:14,160 version of Virus that does not appear in the text since. 342 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:18,440 He's no spring chicken by A Game of Thrones, however, that is 343 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:19,840 immediately clear. In other words, the first 344 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:22,240 mention of ours includes Ned thinking that he's been the 345 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:25,960 master of whispers since the time of Aries, meaning 2 decades 346 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:27,520 or more. No spring chicken, indeed, not 347 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:29,960 even a winter chicken. He then first appears in 348 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:32,520 Catelyn's fourth chapter, Where We. 349 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:35,840 First learn he's a eunuch, but other than that there's no more 350 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:38,000 back story. Just he's been master whisperers 351 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:39,560 for 20 plus years and he's a eunuch. 352 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:43,640 And then she's thrown Catelyn is by the depth of his knowledge, 353 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:46,640 and then by Littlefinger immediately blaming the dagger 354 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:50,080 issue on Tyrion, which sort of takes over the narrative for the 355 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:52,400 short term rather than virus. So we can as. 356 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:54,920 Well, take a look at the first time George gave us information 357 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:58,760 on his youth. So here's the first mention of 358 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:03,040 viruses back story. Quote The Lord Varys was born a 359 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:07,240 slave in lease, did you know? Put not your trust in spiders, 360 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:10,240 my Lord. That was scarcely anything Ned 361 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:13,800 needed to be told. There was something about Varys 362 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:17,119 that made his flesh crawl. The context here is Pycell 363 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:19,760 openly suggesting to Ned that Varys was perhaps the one who 364 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:21,440 poisoned John Aaron. He's like Ned says. 365 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:23,640 I've heard poison is a woman's weapon. 366 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:26,880 He's like poison. He's like women and Unix, you 367 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:29,800 know, like Unix. Did you know Varys is a Unix 368 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:31,920 born and lease It's like yeah, everybody knows that. 369 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:33,920 I think it was Cravens women. Cravens. 370 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:35,200 That's right. Yes, you're right. 371 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:36,480 Cravens. That's the one I couldn't think 372 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:39,680 of. So as an aside, by the way 373 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:42,440 looking this is not young Varus, but it might have been very 374 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:44,200 satisfying for Varus to kill Pycelle. 375 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:46,760 They were on like Pycelle was on the small council before Varus, 376 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:48,080 and Varus has been there 20 years. 377 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:51,320 How Like, since it's probably been openly insulting Varus for 378 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:53,720 two straight decades. Just like not concealing his 379 00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:57,040 disdain for the man and virus is like, finally, my plans allow me 380 00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:00,760 to murder this guy who's been a jerk to me for 20 plus years. 381 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:02,560 Finally, I can get rid of this guy. 382 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:08,280 And to women and craving. And Sansa, who he like abused. 383 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:11,840 So he probably lots of other people and whoever else he did 384 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:14,080 things to and they were like, yes, good job getting rid of 385 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:17,480 that guy, but but think back though, that's jumping way 386 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:18,800 forward. We learned a lot more about 387 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:21,320 Pycell. At this point in the story, 388 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:23,960 Pycell looks like doesn't look like a bad guy because. 389 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:26,440 Ned look thinks virus is his. Makes a skin crawl. 390 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:29,040 Virus makes Catlin skin crawl. So both of them are 391 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:30,480 uncomfortable with virus they think he's. 392 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:35,520 Magical or just suspicious or Olive of Pisel's just joining in 393 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:36,840 with that. So at that point in the story, 394 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:40,640 he's just, yeah, this doesn't mark him as as as as anything. 395 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:43,400 He's just all going along with the characters that we already 396 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:45,280 trust that kind of interesting the way they were presented with 397 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:47,880 him in the 1st place. So that initially makes us more 398 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:49,640 likely to believe what people say about it. 399 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:51,640 When you're a villain and people are saying villainous things 400 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:54,040 about you, we're more likely to believe that when someone like 401 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:57,440 Ned and Catelyn, whom we trust, have the similar opinion. 402 00:18:57,760 --> 00:18:59,880 Right, so it's already like we're already primed for this. 403 00:18:59,960 --> 00:19:02,160 Let's do the basic virus. Rundown Before we get into too 404 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:05,400 much into the into the weeds and the details, let's just go 405 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:09,040 through his early life, what we actually know kind of a rundown 406 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:11,560 style here. You know, like a rundown. 407 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:13,320 Give me a rundown. What's a rundown is used. 408 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:14,200 Can you? What's a rundown can? 409 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:16,680 You give me an example of a rundown. 410 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:19,320 Yeah. So he was born into lists, into 411 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:22,200 slavery, born into lists into slavery, apprentice to a 412 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:25,520 mummer's troop, which travels around the master of the troop 413 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:27,960 completely owned him because that's who sold him, right. 414 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:29,360 That that makes that all adds up. 415 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:32,680 While the troop was in mirror, he sold to this sorcerer who 416 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:35,120 does this ritual and then leaves him for dead. 417 00:19:35,360 --> 00:19:39,040 But then he rises to, which is an unofficial title, Prince of 418 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:40,880 Thieves. That's not some like you've 419 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:43,560 earned the right to be called. No, that's just a thing you call 420 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:46,240 someone who's really good at, like among the best of thieves 421 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:48,600 or whatever really good at. It I will say it is maybe a 422 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:50,680 little bit more than that, not just really good at it, but 423 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:53,200 maybe a ringleader too. Right, absolutely. 424 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:54,440 Absolutely. But let's not get caught up in 425 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:55,520 that. I'm just running the details. 426 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:56,880 We'll we'll get more into that later. 427 00:19:57,000 --> 00:19:58,160 But you're right, that's a good point. 428 00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:01,600 He's outed by some rival and then slavers come after him, 429 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:03,880 which is a little odd. Like, why would slavers come 430 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:05,560 after a thief? I guess it's because. 431 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:09,200 The penalty for in a lot of these societies is enslavement. 432 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:11,040 If you're like that's, that's a criminal punishment. 433 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:13,680 That's fairly common. But it could be that he's an 434 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:15,200 escaped slave and they wanted to. 435 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:17,360 They're slave catchers. That's another possibility, but 436 00:20:17,360 --> 00:20:17,680 I'm not. Sure. 437 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:19,760 Or he could be stealing from slavers. 438 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:21,600 Perhaps that could be who he stole from, yes? 439 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:23,600 Which doesn't preclude the other issues either. 440 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:26,120 He could be suing for slavers who might want to get back at 441 00:20:26,120 --> 00:20:28,080 him, might want to make him a slave himself. 442 00:20:28,360 --> 00:20:31,240 Yeah, absolutely. So either way he flees mirror 443 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:35,120 and then goes to Pentos and and Pentos there. 444 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:38,040 That's a good place to go if you're afraid of slavers because 445 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:42,160 as we know, as we've covered elsewhere, Braavos has beat 446 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:45,040 Pentos in several wars and pent and had imposed their anti 447 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:47,920 slavery laws on them which are loosely followed. 448 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:50,640 They have, they don't have, they still have slaves but it's not 449 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:54,320 they're not called that, they're they have a lighter version of 450 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:55,560 it. It's still basically slavery. 451 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:59,120 But anyway, so he's there. It's a little safer for him 452 00:20:59,120 --> 00:21:02,920 there and he meets Illyrio and they begin their steal from 453 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:06,120 other thieves and fence those goods business, basically 454 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:09,720 organized crime mafia stuff. Then they move up to stealing 455 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:12,840 secrets, which is also very organized crime mafia stuff. 456 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:16,040 You use a steal bigger and better things, steal more 457 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:18,280 valuable things. And that's when he begins 458 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:21,440 training his little birds to steal secrets super efficiently. 459 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,520 And this is what leads to him and Illyrio growing so wealthy 460 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:27,640 that they become respectable, which is also a thing that 461 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:30,560 happens to Mafio. So they they, they start using 462 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:32,320 their illicit money to buy real businesses. 463 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:34,720 And then they have a lot of real businesses that are, you know, 464 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:37,080 above board. And then they can become 465 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:39,840 respectable all of a sudden because they have all these 466 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:43,160 legitimate businesses. And this is where, and of course 467 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:45,800 what counts as a legitimate business in Essos is there's a 468 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,880 much lower bar there. And it's a lot easier to be 469 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:53,680 accepted as as part of the upper crust from pure wealth than it, 470 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:56,440 you know, might be in in other societies and times and places. 471 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,560 Either way, this is what led to him getting hired by Aries, his 472 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:02,440 skill and all that. And that's where he has been 473 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:06,520 until very recently obviously. Ostensibly what led to it I I 474 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:10,840 suppose there was it didn't happen randomly I think virus 475 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:13,880 and or or angling for. That they wanted Aries to 476 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:15,000 notice. Yeah. 477 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:17,040 Yes. Witness me, yes. 478 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:19,920 Which is a funny thing to do for a guy who's so secretive, but 479 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:23,040 you gotta do that just right. So let's go through that. 480 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:26,080 Let's start with lease and work our way through all those 481 00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:28,560 details, that timeline and see what we can pick at, what we can 482 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:32,120 identify as perhaps suspect or as something that we probably 483 00:22:32,120 --> 00:22:35,680 believe now lease is. The story about him being born a 484 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:37,480 slave and lease does come from Pisel. 485 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:41,560 However, even though it's not corroborated, I tend to believe 486 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:42,680 it. Or at least Pisel didn't. 487 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:45,440 Make it up, in other words, Virus probably told him that and 488 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:47,400 everybody else in court. Like, where did you come from? 489 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:48,160 You know? Well, I came. 490 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:50,560 I was born in lease. Now I don't have much reason to 491 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:51,840 doubt that. Like, what difference does it 492 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:55,640 make if he's from Volantis or Norvas or Slavers Bay? 493 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,200 It just doesn't matter. And let maybe Tyrosh would 494 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:00,360 matter 'cause that's the hotbed of black fire activity. 495 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:03,280 But George hadn't worked all that out. 496 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:05,800 By the time he announced Virus was from Lise, like that's in 497 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:08,240 Game of Thrones with viruses from Lise, he had. 498 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:10,200 George hadn't even written the term Blackfyre yet. 499 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,320 Though he had fleshed out a lot of his back story, he hadn't 500 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:14,760 given it all names and figured it all out. 501 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:19,560 So even that's not a great pushback argument about his. 502 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,160 You know, if we're trying to pin a lie on Virus about his origin, 503 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:25,560 I don't know that this one's a good, very fertile ground. 504 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:28,840 Yeah, I think it's something that, like you said, Kobe 505 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:31,040 doesn't really matter where he's technically born. 506 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:34,600 Like, especially when you're young, when you're 1256 years 507 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:36,160 old, you don't really know where you are. 508 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:38,400 You don't have control over it. It doesn't affect you that much, 509 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:40,560 at least not as much as like your parents or the people 510 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:43,560 directly raising you. So I mean, obviously there can 511 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:45,720 be some exceptions. I'd rather there's definitely, 512 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:48,640 I'd rather be born in, I don't know, Uptown Manhattan than 513 00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:51,800 war-torn Rwanda or something like that. 514 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:56,120 But whatever it is, wherever he was really a born, or whatever 515 00:23:56,120 --> 00:23:59,280 places he might have lived in his very young ages, he's going 516 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:02,760 to pick the one, true or not, that will add most to his story 517 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:04,520 or the story he wants it to be. Does that makes sense? 518 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:07,880 Yeah, I mean, Lisa's a hotbed of of slavery and and especially a 519 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:09,880 brothel. Slaves and all that and that 520 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:11,040 might be. Who he is, he might. 521 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:15,120 Have been a brothel, the child of a brothel slave, and that's a 522 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:18,960 reasonable origin for him. It makes a lot of sense. 523 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,400 Or being a childhood brothel slave might make it harder to 524 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:23,360 track down who he really is, if someone would look. 525 00:24:23,360 --> 00:24:24,120 Into it, right. Yeah. 526 00:24:24,120 --> 00:24:25,440 Very good point. He's like, well, no one could 527 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:27,520 possibly, no one would even try to look up who he is. 528 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:29,280 If that's his origin, like, well, you're never going to 529 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:31,040 trace that. But that might be why he tells 530 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:32,320 that story. So no one looks into it. 531 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:33,400 Exactly. Very good point, Sean. 532 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:37,400 Yeah, I like that. And so even though so it is a 533 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:39,760 notable hotbed of Valyrian bloodlines, that's a point to 534 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:42,640 remember. There's a lot of theories about 535 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:46,080 his ancestry, and he's like, yeah, he might have Valyrian 536 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:48,600 ancestry even incidentally, even if it's not an important 537 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,800 Valyrian family like Targaryen or Blackfyre, it just might be 538 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:53,360 because there's so much Valyrian blood there. 539 00:24:53,360 --> 00:24:55,200 It might be in him. That doesn't necessarily make it 540 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:56,320 relevant, but it. Might. 541 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:57,520 So we'll we'll keep that in mind. 542 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:00,320 He's been master whisperers for over 20 years, like we said. 543 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:04,160 And he probably wasn't too, too young when he was hired, you 544 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:08,280 know, I doubt he was like. 20 He probably his rise to power 545 00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:11,680 probably wasn't that quick. But maybe he. 546 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:13,600 But he was really good at it. It seems to. 547 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:15,640 He was talented. Maybe he was at least in his 548 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:17,040 30s. So I'm gonna guess he's in his 549 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:19,200 50s. But maybe early, maybe late 40s. 550 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:21,280 Could be late 50s though. He's hard. 551 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:23,000 It's hard to tell how. Old He is like when you shave 552 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:24,960 your head and have no facial hair. 553 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:27,120 That conceals your age a bit, right? 554 00:25:27,120 --> 00:25:28,280 You don't have any Gray. You can't. 555 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:29,480 If you have Gray hair, you don't see it. 556 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:31,240 You know and and it makes you like having. 557 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:33,280 Smooth cheeks and. This makes you look a little 558 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:34,920 younger. It might be a little tin foily, 559 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:38,080 but I don't put it beyond him to be even much older. 560 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,480 Like if he's using some glamour like Melisandre or something 561 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:43,880 like that. He tells us he's he has his 562 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:46,800 disdain for magic, but we kept the kind of distressed stuff he 563 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:49,320 tells us. So he also might disdain certain 564 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:52,400 types of magic, but embrace others if it's meets his end, 565 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:54,400 you know? And for reasons I'll describe 566 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:55,600 later, I think he's a little older. 567 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:59,240 With an Illyrio, but maybe not. But I kind of based on a few 568 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:00,320 things about, like I said, I'll get to that. 569 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:02,160 Illyrio calls himself old and fat. 570 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:06,000 I mean, the second part's true. He's very overweight, but he, 571 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:07,800 he's old. What does that mean? 572 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:10,240 You know, like a lot of people who would turn 30 say, I feel so 573 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:11,160 old. You know, it's like, well, what 574 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:13,160 you know. Sweet summered children. 575 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:16,160 I get such an impression of Illyrio as a kind of dude who 576 00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:19,880 values youth and like looks back at his lost youth. 577 00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:23,800 And I I feel that he would feel old because he was so physically 578 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:25,880 fit and spectacular as you. Yeah. 579 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:29,800 So yeah, I wouldn't go so far as to say he's old by our 580 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,800 standards, or even necessarily a Westerosi standard. 581 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:35,000 Yeah, he he, yeah, you're right about that, 'cause he's he's 582 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:37,560 there's a lot of evidence that he was a model or chosen to be a 583 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:41,600 model when he was young. So not not so much anymore now. 584 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,400 So that argues for being in their late 40s, ish, maybe early 585 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:47,600 50s. And yeah, that's that's what 586 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:48,680 we're working with. That's for operating. 587 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,240 And I actually posted a poll in our Facebook group and most of 588 00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:53,320 you seem to think late 40s. That was the most popular 589 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:56,320 choice, Not a hugely important thing, but I'm curious and 590 00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:57,400 wanted to see what you guys think. 591 00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:00,400 And if that's accurate, late 40s, early 50s. 592 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:04,320 He'd have been born in the mid two 50s, which is an important 593 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:05,800 time. And it supports a lot of the 594 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:09,760 ancestry theories, which is that it's right before Summer Hall in 595 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:11,160 the ensuing 5th Blackfyre Billion. 596 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,480 So he would have been a very young man when the final 597 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:17,760 Blackfyre claimant was slain, being male E the monstrous. 598 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,120 And if he had any connection to that or relation to that, well 599 00:27:21,120 --> 00:27:23,720 he would have taken the fall when their that family fell 600 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,720 apart and that could be why he wound up in slavery. 601 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:28,800 So it it's. Not it's not proof of anything. 602 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:31,840 But it fits like his age lines up with all that pretty 603 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:34,840 well-being a young man in the era of the black fires finally 604 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:37,160 being done. Another theory out there is he's 605 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:38,720 the descendant of Arian Brightflame. 606 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:40,440 Again, another Duncan Egg connection here. 607 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,200 Arian Brightflame was sent to lease in exile after the Hedge 608 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:45,720 Knight. Now that was like 40 years 609 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:49,520 before Varus was born though. So he's not Varus's father, 610 00:27:50,120 --> 00:27:52,040 probably not his grandfather, probably not his relation at 611 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:53,600 all. But if he is, it would be like 612 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:55,280 great grandfather or something like that. 613 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:57,560 Or distant cousin. Unless my hair brain theory 614 00:27:57,560 --> 00:27:59,120 about virus using some. Sort of. 615 00:27:59,120 --> 00:28:00,480 Oh yeah, that's true. If. 616 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:02,000 He's a lot older than he is. Yeah, you're right. 617 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:02,480 OK. Yeah. 618 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:06,840 So least never comes up again. Never is mentioned again in 619 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,160 association with virus. Tyrion and Illyrio, when they 620 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:10,680 talk about it, doesn't come up at all. 621 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:12,840 In fact, he's like we were green boys and pentas. 622 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:14,000 He's like, I thought virus came from me. 623 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:14,760 He's like. Yeah, he did. 624 00:28:15,360 --> 00:28:17,400 One step ahead of the slavers. Least does not come up. 625 00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:21,640 So that's not necessarily me doubting it, but it's just 626 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,120 pointing out how there's not much corroboration there. 627 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:26,200 Again, I don't doubt it because of the whole, like why it 628 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:29,040 doesn't seem to be a reason to lie about it, but it's still 629 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:31,320 gotta be. We gotta keep it in mind. 630 00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:35,120 So he's a slave and an orphan. Which makes sense, right? 631 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:38,400 If you have children and you're a slave, those children belong 632 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:41,000 to the person that owns you. That's how these societies work. 633 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,640 That's the inherent difference with Thraldom is that your kids 634 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:47,440 are not slaves in under the iron born system, which is like the 635 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:49,560 only difference, a pretty important difference. 636 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:51,560 How noble of those iron born, how? 637 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,040 Yeah, how noble of them. You wish that it's 'cause it's, 638 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:56,120 you know, you're not a man if you only if you earn. 639 00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:58,840 If you get child slaves through birth, you have to capture them 640 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:01,120 and and enslave them the hard way, like you know. 641 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:06,120 See, they they value hard. Work and go get it. 642 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:07,920 Pull their kids up by the bootstraps. 643 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:12,240 Yeah, so if he so this this does add up to his his history being 644 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:14,600 untraceable. If this is true, then yeah, he 645 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,000 might not know who his. Parents are like, if he was just 646 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:19,760 taken away from his parents because he they were slaves and 647 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:22,760 he's a slave, then, yeah. Then like the Unsullied, they 648 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:24,480 don't know who their parents are, you know. 649 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:26,360 So there's a lot of things like that. 650 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:28,440 His father could have been a noble who impregnated a 651 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,520 household slave, something very common in Westeros without the 652 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:34,200 slavery part. If Virus's mother was a brothel 653 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:36,320 slave, we've mentioned that that's very common in least then 654 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:38,240 his father could have just been some random John. 655 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:40,640 Any client you know could have been a noble, could have been 656 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:42,560 just some completely unknown person. 657 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,600 They would have definitely would have no way to trace that unless 658 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:49,400 like this person had very specific features which does not 659 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:52,720 appear to have unless his hair is silver and he shaves that 660 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:56,040 off, which is definitely possible, but given he's 50, if 661 00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:58,280 his hair came out silver, would you think that's silver or just 662 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:00,520 Gray? You know, so he's past the age 663 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:02,360 where even that could be determined, even if we could see 664 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:05,320 his hair, which we don't, so. And he's been shaving his head 665 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:07,360 for a while, right? I don't think he just started 666 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:09,200 doing it when he. So he might have been trying to 667 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:12,040 disguise silver hair when he was 20 or 25, I guess. 668 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:13,920 I mean, I guess we don't know for sure when he started shaving 669 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:14,840 his head. I don't know. 670 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:16,160 I didn't think of that until just now. 671 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:19,040 Do we have a description of him from when he was under Aries or 672 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:19,760 whatever? Nope. 673 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:20,920 Apparently he's always shaved his head. 674 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:24,480 Now it's not, apparently. I think being a eunuch, you 675 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:26,960 start losing your hair sooner. Think because of testosterone. 676 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:29,480 I think that's true. I'm not. 677 00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,760 I'm not a don't quote me on that double check that before he 678 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:33,960 says. So that may have been why he did 679 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:35,320 it, just 'cause he was losing his hair anyway. 680 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:38,080 I got to be suspicious of that, 'cause I feel like men lose 681 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:40,480 their hair more than women, and men have the testosterone, not 682 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:42,520 women, so, well, it's. Different for women, yeah it's 683 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:44,240 it's the whole mechanism is different. 684 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,320 So but you're right, like I'm, I'm out of pocket with my 685 00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:49,360 knowledge on how that works. So anyway. 686 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:52,560 But it's also very relevant that while we're talking about Lise, 687 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:57,880 Illyrio claims to have met Sarah his the love of his life. 688 00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:03,200 At a lysine brothel, the same place virus is from interesting. 689 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,960 So he claims Sarah was the love of his life, which is really 690 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:10,160 sketchy. It might be true, but like this 691 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,360 is Illyrio like? Is he really following and 692 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:14,520 falling in love with a random brothel worker? 693 00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:16,640 And it cost him so much politically, he said. 694 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,240 Like this has always. Been a bit suspect. 695 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:21,960 Not so suspect that we should dismiss it out of pocket, but 696 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:25,440 something we should question. Maybe Sarah is a different, has 697 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,600 a different connection to them than they're willing to let on. 698 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:31,840 A family connection perhaps. Maybe it's virus's cousin. 699 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:35,000 Maybe virus is like, yeah, my sister is enslaved as a brothel 700 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:38,080 in a in a brothel. Least like I was or I was born 701 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:38,880 into. So is she. 702 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:41,080 But she's still there. I'm gone. 703 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:43,960 You know, I became part of this troupe and I had other skills, 704 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:47,080 but she's still there and. And then they saved her. 705 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,880 And they saved. Her did feel love for her. 706 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:50,760 I don't know. Yeah. 707 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:52,240 So they're kind of impartial to that. 708 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:53,360 Lots of. Permutations. 709 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:57,000 I would say I'm partial to the idea that Varys and Sarah are 710 00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:01,360 related and had a a caring connection and and the 711 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,800 connection with Illyrio kind of sprung from that connection is 712 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:07,920 is what I lean towards at least. Were you leased towards? 713 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:10,840 It's worth noting not Tyrion doesn't call Shay the love of 714 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:13,360 his life, but he makes a lot of risks for her. 715 00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:16,200 He takes a lot of chances and puts a lot of his, I don't know, 716 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,240 reputation even life on the line for his relationship with her. 717 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,320 So just because Hilario is powerful or whatever, doesn't 718 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:26,640 mean he might not do the same for someone who again Chaz, I 719 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:28,840 don't know, Lowborn, You know, she's not some Princess or 720 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:30,680 something. You might expect Tyrion to take 721 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:32,840 such a chance for her, like a Lara might have done with Sarah. 722 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:34,840 'S I agree and I think the bottom line here, even if we 723 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:38,600 can't get out the truth is that it's it's difficult to see Sarah 724 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:41,240 as a truly random discovery by Illyrio. 725 00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:44,280 That part of the story I highly question whether Varys. 726 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:47,600 Picked her. It doesn't have to be a family 727 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:49,280 member, they don't have to be related, but that is a 728 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:51,000 possibility. It would make a lot of sense. 729 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:54,320 But it could just be like Illyrio later claims. 730 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:55,560 I never knew why virus picked me. 731 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:58,520 Well, maybe just picked Sarah for a similar reason. 732 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:00,160 The way they looked like if their whole thing is trying to 733 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:03,080 produce a child that looks Targaryen, then you're going to 734 00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:05,560 look for someone that has a specific look, certain feature, 735 00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:07,600 certain eye color, and Sarah might have. 736 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:11,280 Those may have been the top of the list of the physical 737 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:13,120 features they were looking for if they're trying to create a 738 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:15,800 Targaryen looking child. And Illyrio has those looks. 739 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,600 He's blonde and blue eyed. We do know what his hair color 740 00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:21,120 is and his eyes and that he was a good looking man when he was 741 00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:23,720 young. So that part fits really well. 742 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:26,080 So it could just be the genetics that they wanted, but it could 743 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:30,040 actually be certain noble ancestry on one or both sides. 744 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:32,480 Illyrio or Virus or and or Sarah. 745 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:35,520 Of all three of them, I suspect Illyria is the least likely to 746 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:37,520 have no one ancestry. But. 747 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:39,680 And I'd say, is Sarah the most likely? 748 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,520 To Sarah, the most likely yes. And yeah, it's a lot more 749 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:43,720 likely. Varus and Sarah have like, 750 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:45,320 certainly Sarah and Illyrio aren't related. 751 00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:46,920 They're really trying to create be Targaryen. 752 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:48,640 They're trying to be an insane. They'll be so sure. 753 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:50,520 Yeah, maybe I shouldn't be so. Sure, about that. 754 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:53,040 But we'll remind ourselves a few time in this episode. 755 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:56,520 The plot to make or crown or both make and crowned Aegon 756 00:33:56,520 --> 00:34:01,080 slash young Griff may have been conceived prior to Varus's stint 757 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:02,320 as Master Whisper. They may have. 758 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:05,760 Planned this ahead of actually creating a child they may have 759 00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:09,800 like, took taken them years to find the right pairing of people 760 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:11,760 to create this baby that looks Targaryen. 761 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:15,360 You know, I don't know if that's even what they did, but let's 762 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:16,960 keep in mind when Aegon was born. 763 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:19,120 Now Tyrion looks at Aegon and thinks he's a little older than 764 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:21,760 they say, but not a lot older like he might be. 18 instead of 765 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:25,639 16 or 15, But that's not going to change our math on this, like 766 00:34:25,639 --> 00:34:27,600 when they started conceiving this plan very much. 767 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:31,120 And this is where Varus learned his mummer tricks at Lise. 768 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:35,520 He was apprentice to this mummer's troop and he must have 769 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:36,480 been pretty good. At it. 770 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:39,199 Like he he traveled with them. It's like if you're a kid 771 00:34:39,199 --> 00:34:41,760 playing soccer and you're chosen for the traveling team, you must 772 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,800 be pretty good at Soccer Varus. Was a slave. 773 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:47,120 Apprentice to a mummer's troop and they took him on the road. 774 00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:49,920 They took well on on the road like they were sailing to many 775 00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:51,120 different cities According to him. 776 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:54,760 Like Old Town, Atlantis, Port King's Landing, Bravos. 777 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:59,480 Just lots of places and that implies a pretty decent length 778 00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:01,600 of time. Like travelling from Old Town to 779 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:04,160 Pentas takes a while and then he's names. 780 00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:06,760 All these different cities they went to this all this time he's 781 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,080 acquiring skills, he's practicing, he's learning 782 00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:12,280 mummer's tricks, acting skills, things that he uses now. 783 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:14,360 Like I said, he must have had some talent, must have had some 784 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:16,680 ability, might have worked really hard, we see. 785 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:21,160 Him hustle a lot later, so I kind of that kind of fits that 786 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:26,760 he was useful to the mummer's troop, which is an important 787 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:29,080 point. The fact that he was useful yet 788 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:32,200 they sold him. He is very good at the things 789 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:34,440 that he must have learned back then. 790 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:36,280 So it all that all fits really well, the whole mummery. 791 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:40,400 So it's hard to imagine that a mummer's troop wasn't in his 792 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:42,960 past given that he has so many mummers skills. 793 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,000 That part really is hard to question. 794 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:46,600 You know I questioned the Sarah stuff. 795 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:49,360 But this stuff, yeah, this this I kind of believe. 796 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:51,720 But beyond Lee. So what what happens is right 797 00:35:51,720 --> 00:35:56,120 he's one of the tour stops is Mir and that's when his life 798 00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:58,880 took this dark and pivotal turn allegedly. 799 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:01,960 So he doesn't have any like sense of mirror is like a home. 800 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:07,160 It's just a place he got left and had to start over. 801 00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:11,400 So let's. Talk about the ritual the first 802 00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:13,840 time Tyrion tries to get an answer. 803 00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:16,240 Regarding being made into a eunuch. 804 00:36:16,240 --> 00:36:17,840 Varus evades the question. Maybe he doesn't. 805 00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:19,720 He doesn't necessarily. Evade it, he But he says, let's 806 00:36:19,720 --> 00:36:22,480 talk about some other time. So maybe he was evading it. 807 00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:25,440 Either way he's he puts it off and this is Tyrion. 808 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:30,080 The Clash of Kings Two. When this happens, this is we're 809 00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:32,200 going to have the quote here. And this is just after he sent 810 00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:33,760 Janos Slint to the wall. Here we go. 811 00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:36,480 Who cut you varies. When and why? 812 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,960 Who are you truly? The Eunuch's smile never 813 00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:43,200 flickered, but his eyes glittered with something that 814 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:45,560 was not. Laughter you are kind to. 815 00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:50,720 Ask my Lord, But my tale is long and sad, and we have treasons to 816 00:36:50,720 --> 00:36:52,640 discuss. Now he could be acting here. 817 00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:54,720 But Tyrion? Tyrion certainly reads it as 818 00:36:54,720 --> 00:36:56,120 genuine emotion. I do too. 819 00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:58,360 I mean, whatever you think of virus and his deceptions and 820 00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:00,400 whatever the real story is, which it might not be what we 821 00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:04,080 there's no way that this wasn't like traumatic ish. 822 00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:06,040 You know I don't want to like. Overuse the word. 823 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:07,600 Trauma. But this man was turned into a 824 00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:08,520 eunuch. I mean that's. 825 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:11,000 Pretty safe guess it was horrible, even if there wasn't 826 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:13,200 some dark ritual involved. Even though even if the Voice 827 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:16,040 and the sorcerer completely made-up, it's pretty awful no 828 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:17,400 matter what. Like, right? 829 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:21,320 But Forest might have known that a story like this had a lot of 830 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:24,880 potential to win him sympathy, to use as a way to win trust. 831 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:26,920 Like I'm going to get close to you as I'm going to share my 832 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:28,800 personal secrets with you. We're going to trust each other 833 00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:32,960 a little more and Varus could see that this would give him 834 00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:35,240 leverage over Tyrion and he wants to use it at a specific 835 00:37:35,240 --> 00:37:36,600 time. And we know he's trying to 836 00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:38,360 recruit Tyrion or trying to make an ally of him. 837 00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:40,960 We know that they have maybe a long term plan of winning Tyrion 838 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:43,440 over. So if he has clear goals of 839 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:46,080 winning Tyrion over, then he's going to be very specific and 840 00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:49,920 use good timing with when he tells these personal stories to 841 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:52,720 try to win Tyrion over. He's not going to just, he's 842 00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:55,160 going to pick his moment, he's going to pick his spots when it 843 00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:57,560 has maximum effect. There's a lot of incentive here. 844 00:37:58,120 --> 00:37:59,760 If he's trying to win Tyrion over and he's not going to 845 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,360 scruple to tell like that's another reason to not believe to 846 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:04,440 think he's willing to lie. He's got goals here. 847 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:05,720 He wants. He's got ambitions. 848 00:38:05,720 --> 00:38:08,240 We don't exactly know what the end game is, but we know he 849 00:38:08,240 --> 00:38:11,480 wants Tyrion, or at some point he wanted Tyrion. 850 00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:15,360 And every A lot of things that followed were his in the. 851 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,120 Effort to recruit him and it might start. 852 00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:21,280 It might have started as far back as this, and so the timing 853 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:24,760 of the telling of the ritual story is is worth scrutiny. 854 00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:29,440 It's also no noteworthy that he might not yet have decided how 855 00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:33,120 to tell the story to Tyrion. Like the core pieces of it that 856 00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:36,360 are true can still have different things added on 857 00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:39,160 depending on who he's talking to or what his goal is. 858 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:43,560 So like pinning it on magic versus pinning it on slave 859 00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:47,120 owners versus, you know, whatever other thing he might 860 00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:50,400 not quite have sized Tyrion up for which angle he's going to 861 00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:53,080 take when he tells the story. Yes, I like that. 862 00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:54,840 That's a very good point. Yeah, 'cause it's it's along the 863 00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:56,640 way it lines that I'm thinking, like when this next quote 864 00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:57,720 occurs, we're about to read here. 865 00:38:57,720 --> 00:39:03,000 Tyrion has just been told by Varys that of Renly's murder and 866 00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:05,840 the subsequent claiming of his army by Stannis, the mention of 867 00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:07,840 dark arts, the mention of a shadow baby. 868 00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:11,040 Well, he didn't say shadow baby, but it was like some dark arts 869 00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:14,920 have been suspected here. And we the rumors are that 870 00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:18,480 Stannis has a shadow binder from a shy, which is true. 871 00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:21,960 That's Melisandre. So the mention of darker. 872 00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:23,760 You're right, Sean. He might have been waiting for a 873 00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:27,800 a a good hook to use. And Stannis using dark arts 874 00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:31,640 either fit perfectly or was a good lie to tell. 875 00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:33,160 That virus came up with in the interim. 876 00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:35,360 He's like, I need a good story. I'm going to work it up like an 877 00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:36,840 actor. Would he's like, I need this 878 00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:38,120 monologue to be? Really. 879 00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:40,480 Effective. I need the audience to be bought 880 00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:42,360 in on this. With my delivery has to be 881 00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:44,120 perfect. The details of the story have to 882 00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:46,200 be good. So just imagine if Stannis, 883 00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:49,440 instead of having Melisandre working for him, he'd hired some 884 00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:51,440 mercenary troop from a slave city. 885 00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:54,000 Yeah, Varus might have told this story a little differently. 886 00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:57,680 Yes, so. So check out this quote here and 887 00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:01,200 keep in mind just who Varus is and his skills, his acting and 888 00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:04,160 all that quote. This pause was longer than the 889 00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:08,880 one before, and when Varri spoke again, his voice was different. 890 00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:11,640 Somehow. I was an orphan boy, apprentice 891 00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:15,520 to a travelling folly. Our master owned a fat little 892 00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:18,960 cog and we sailed up and down the Narrow Sea, performing in 893 00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:23,120 all the Free Cities and from time to time in Old Town and 894 00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:25,920 King's Landing. Different Like what does that 895 00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:27,680 mean because. It's just a it's a grave 896 00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:29,320 stories. It's a big part of his history. 897 00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:31,600 Believable. But this is a guy has such 898 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:34,800 control over how he speaks. This is a trained actor. 899 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:37,560 He knows these things. He's not going to do these 900 00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:40,200 things subconsciously. He's going to take on a voice 901 00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:44,480 intentionally for the gravity of what he's going to say. 902 00:40:44,720 --> 00:40:48,560 This is very performative. I think even if it's backed by 903 00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:51,320 truth, it's still he still wants it to hit a certain way. 904 00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:54,160 He wants it to land a certain way so he can feed on his own 905 00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:56,160 real trauma to make it more believable. 906 00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:59,440 Even though some of these details might not be again. 907 00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:02,160 So use Aria as an as an example too. 908 00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:05,160 Aria is actually quite a great parallel to Virus in so many 909 00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:07,320 ways, in a ways that maybe a lot of y'all hadn't noticed. 910 00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:10,080 Some of you probably did notice the theater troupe stuff. 911 00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:14,400 That's a that's a big one. Now I assume he was a performer, 912 00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:16,360 but he might not have been. He might have been, you know 913 00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:18,120 stagehand and some people do both. 914 00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:20,880 You know, there's jobs in theater that are, you know, 915 00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:24,840 multi flexible. You do some make up and costume 916 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:26,120 stuff. Sometimes you perform. 917 00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:28,600 That's what Arya was going to do at her theater in in Bravo. 918 00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:31,400 She was helping people with costumes, but she also had a 919 00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:33,600 scene. That's pretty normal for a a 920 00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,320 stage troupe. But he and he was good at it, 921 00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:37,520 right? That's an important, really 922 00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:40,160 important point. If he he was an apprenticed 923 00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:42,720 slave, so if he wasn't good at it, they would have just 924 00:41:42,720 --> 00:41:43,080 ditched. Him. 925 00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:44,360 They're like, all right, you're not good at this. 926 00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:47,080 Find some other slave. Just turnover, right? 927 00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:49,280 But he must have been decent enough to keep his job. 928 00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:53,200 And again, this this tracks with how good he is at mummery later 929 00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:54,640 in life. At first it was probably a 930 00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:57,480 decent life, relatively speaking, for someone who's an 931 00:41:57,480 --> 00:41:59,520 enslaved orphan. You know, like most you could. 932 00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:01,720 Mostly you would expect to end up in hard labor. 933 00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:03,440 Or in a. Brothel or something. 934 00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:06,760 Just much worse than a traveling acting troop. 935 00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:10,600 That's that's much better than you would expect for for an 936 00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:13,960 enslaved orphan. But of course, that was only 937 00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:16,080 temporary. It did take the dark turn, and 938 00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:21,000 here's that moment quote. One day at Mir, a certain man 939 00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:24,760 came to our folly. After the performance he made an 940 00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:29,040 offer for me that my master found too tempting to refuse. 941 00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:32,720 I was in terror. I feared the man meant to use 942 00:42:32,720 --> 00:42:35,920 me, as I had heard men used small boys. 943 00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:40,680 But in truth, the only part of me he had need of was my 944 00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:44,120 manhood. He gave me a potion that made me 945 00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:49,000 powerless to move or speak, yet did nothing to dull my senses. 946 00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:53,880 With a long hooked blade he sliced me root and stem, 947 00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:58,400 chanting all the while, I watched him burn my manly parts 948 00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:01,920 on a Brazier. The flames turned blue, and I 949 00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:06,080 heard a voice answer his call, though I did not understand the 950 00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:08,040 words they spoke. He says he was in. 951 00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:09,080 Terror. And you know, that's one. 952 00:43:09,240 --> 00:43:11,880 I certainly believe that that's one of the most believable 953 00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:14,400 things he ever says. What a turn for a young person's 954 00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:16,320 life to take. This isn't even something you 955 00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:18,040 might imagine is possible. Like you said, he's worried 956 00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:20,200 about being sexually abused, which is terrifying enough, but 957 00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:23,320 then it's worse. We wonder why again, Illyrio 958 00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:25,000 says. I wonder why Virus chose him. 959 00:43:25,240 --> 00:43:28,280 We wonder why this random sorcerer guy chose Virus. 960 00:43:28,720 --> 00:43:30,440 Why was he chosen for this ritual? 961 00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:33,680 Out of all the other orphan boys, we're told young Wires was 962 00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:35,320 talented. We've seen evidence of it. 963 00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:36,800 It's corroborated a number of ways. 964 00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:40,800 So why a a relatively useful talented? 965 00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:45,000 Slave boy that you choose. Him rather than some, I don't 966 00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:47,520 know not. Very talented slave boy. 967 00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:49,560 It seems like that would be a better choice. 968 00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:52,320 Like, it's kind of ugly to think about, but like if you're a 969 00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:56,480 slave owner, you're thinking of them as property. 970 00:43:56,560 --> 00:43:59,360 Why would you give a valuable one up when you could give one 971 00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:01,240 that doesn't have any skills if it's all the same? 972 00:44:01,240 --> 00:44:04,960 Like what ritual requires talent amongst like, is that really 973 00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:06,960 what we're meant to believe? Oh, I need someone who's good at 974 00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:10,000 mummery for this ritual. What that isn't like, what kind 975 00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:11,720 of magic is this? That doesn't really make much 976 00:44:11,720 --> 00:44:12,640 sense to me. I don't know. 977 00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:14,920 So you're selling a profitable asset to? 978 00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:17,480 Like he got an offer he couldn't refuse. 979 00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:20,200 The Goat Master paid. Was paid a lot by the Sorcerer. 980 00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:23,160 But why? What did the Sorcerer see in him 981 00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:26,400 that made him worth that? It's a very difficult part of 982 00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:29,080 the story to get past. Why scoop a boy from the gutter, 983 00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:32,360 teach him useful skills, see him succeed, then sell him to be 984 00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:34,080 maimed? It doesn't make a lot of sense 985 00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:36,920 unless there's a missing piece here, besides the fact he was 986 00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:39,840 paid a lot, but even that. It's like why did the Sorcerer 987 00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:41,960 pay so much for Varys? Why did what? 988 00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:42,920 What? Why wasn't some other? 989 00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:46,120 Boy useful. I I've had other like sort of 990 00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:50,160 wait a minute pieces to this one is that if the sorcerer just 991 00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:53,640 needed him for this ritual, it seems like he could have had 992 00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:55,480 that and still giving him back to the mummer's troop. 993 00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:57,240 What? Why was there no discussion or 994 00:44:57,240 --> 00:44:58,560 negotiation? Right. 995 00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:00,320 Like, yeah. Well, I guess my question is, 996 00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:02,640 would Varys want to go back to the mummer's troop after they 997 00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:03,120 sold? Him. 998 00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:05,040 No, but he's a slave. They may not have a choice. 999 00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:08,640 Am I selling back, you know? And on top of that, it's another 1000 00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:11,640 piece of this this scenario that's a little weird. 1001 00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:16,120 Why would the guy use a potion that keeps him alert, that lets 1002 00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:18,280 him feel the pain? Like, wouldn't it be easier to 1003 00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:20,680 just knock him out or use some other potion? 1004 00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:23,880 It seems like a relatively weird, rare, unique sort of 1005 00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:26,840 potion to be part of this. It just makes it more awful, 1006 00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:27,880 yeah. It makes the story makes you 1007 00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:29,480 feel more sympathy for virus. Right. 1008 00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:31,920 And so that makes me suspect this part of it, that part I 1009 00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:34,960 think he's making up, that he probably wasn't really awake and 1010 00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:37,120 aware of the pain, witnessed all this stuff. 1011 00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:40,680 That's something he gets to make up, I think. 1012 00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:44,200 But I still don't know to what end or why the sorcerer would 1013 00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:47,520 have done this in the 1st place. It it's a piece of this that I 1014 00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:51,120 can make sense of what might be true or not true, or why he 1015 00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:53,520 would tell it this way, but it doesn't like solve the whole 1016 00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:55,040 thing. It makes me more confused, yeah. 1017 00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:57,640 No, it doesn't. Yeah, it really doesn't. 1018 00:45:57,640 --> 00:45:58,960 Yeah. Here, let's, let's move on with 1019 00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:00,960 this. More on this, this aspect of it, 1020 00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:03,280 of his story. It's believable that Varys had 1021 00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:05,600 qualities that made him write for this ritual, but it's hard 1022 00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:07,640 to guess what that is if it's not something in his blood. 1023 00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:11,960 And the only thing we know about in this world about blood is 1024 00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:13,680 that there is power in King's blood. 1025 00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:16,480 And even that's a suspect concept, but it's something 1026 00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:18,920 believed by a lot of characters in the world, so. 1027 00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:22,320 This is perhaps the biggest. Suggestion that virus was not 1028 00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:25,040 some random orphan, but someone with notable ancestry. 1029 00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:28,760 So obviously, if the whole question of King's blood is too 1030 00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:30,720 big a topic for this episode, we'll just go on what we know 1031 00:46:30,720 --> 00:46:33,040 about it. But this doesn't even add up 1032 00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:34,360 with what we know about King's blood. 1033 00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:36,320 Like Melisandre just used leeches. 1034 00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:38,400 Like, why wouldn't leeches work here? 1035 00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:41,040 No other blood magic ritual? What's that? 1036 00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:42,640 Need more juice? Need more juice? 1037 00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:45,240 No other blood magic ritual we've ever seen involves 1038 00:46:45,240 --> 00:46:47,640 castration like this is the A1 time thing. 1039 00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:49,840 What is the spell he's trying to do? 1040 00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:51,880 Is it like a fertility spell? Like? 1041 00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:56,520 Is it particularly relevant to what the sorcerer is trying to 1042 00:46:56,520 --> 00:46:58,360 do? Like maybe there's something to 1043 00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:03,040 do with someone was infertile, was impotent or something and. 1044 00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:05,040 That's what the voice said. You are now fertile. 1045 00:47:05,240 --> 00:47:07,000 Yeah, yeah, you peed some. Language far as get. 1046 00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:08,200 Hard you. Can. 1047 00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:10,680 I don't know. It's blue, like the color of 1048 00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:11,800 Viagra. Yeah, I don't. 1049 00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:14,120 Play like I honestly, but that is where I go with it. 1050 00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:17,240 It's like if it's so like highly specific is about being that 1051 00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:21,800 like a a sexual organ like that. Does the ritual have a sexual? 1052 00:47:22,720 --> 00:47:25,800 It's a sensible theory, or at least like angle to take on it. 1053 00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:27,680 I like that, yeah. And it did seem to be 1054 00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:31,000 Melisandre's belief. Is it? 1055 00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:34,080 Look at the magic I get from a little bit of blood out of these 1056 00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:36,120 leeches. Think what I could do with an 1057 00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:38,480 actual sacrifice. And maybe there's a lot of 1058 00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:42,080 grades in between a little blood from a Leech and sacrifice, like 1059 00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:43,840 maybe and and like you Shay is saying. 1060 00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:46,560 Maybe you get even something more specific if you chop off 1061 00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:49,120 their sword arm or chop off their ears or their tongue and 1062 00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:52,080 the blood from that might give you different powers. 1063 00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:53,680 We do have. From Melisandre, Another red 1064 00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:56,520 priest burning a whole. Person gives, does things. 1065 00:47:56,920 --> 00:47:59,240 Now the difference here is that this is so this is a part of a 1066 00:47:59,240 --> 00:48:02,320 person, which sort of fits, but we've never seen this blue flame 1067 00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:04,200 part before. No, never has the flame turned 1068 00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:08,040 blue, which might be just like virus could just be making 1069 00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:11,480 things up that sound like magic. He's like, yeah, blue flames, 1070 00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:14,840 hooked blade, chanting. Yeah, just like stuff to make it 1071 00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:16,760 sound. Believable, but is it? 1072 00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:19,040 Still, it's not like you say, like a Shaz theory is pretty 1073 00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:20,000 good. It's not far fetched. 1074 00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:23,400 I mean, a lot of us are out here theorizing that Bran was fed 1075 00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:27,560 Jojen, so like, if that's possible, then why not? 1076 00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:29,360 This right? Yeah, it's definitely possible, 1077 00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:32,760 but there's a flaw in the. Ancestry theory, which I'm open 1078 00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:34,280 to. I think there's potential 1079 00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:37,440 viruses. Maybe they maybe someone chopped 1080 00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:40,400 his manhood off to keep him from making more black fires. 1081 00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:42,960 I don't know like it's possible. Yeah, it wasn't a spell at all, 1082 00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:45,320 but he was. He was made of eunuch. 1083 00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:46,800 Yeah, yeah. It might not have been for 1084 00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:49,160 sorcery at all. I think that's a great point. 1085 00:48:49,240 --> 00:48:52,120 Exactly the UNSL. Leader made into Unix very young 1086 00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:55,320 in age they they not saying virus was a former unsullied but 1087 00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:56,600 there's. Lots of horrible things done to 1088 00:48:56,600 --> 00:48:58,480 slaves that involve maiming, and they don't. 1089 00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:00,520 They're not all sorcerers doing rituals. 1090 00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:02,200 There's still a hole in that, by the way. 1091 00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:04,120 If they just don't want to have kids, just kill them. 1092 00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:06,000 They left them for dead anyway. Exactly. 1093 00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:07,320 Stab them through the heart, you know. 1094 00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:10,120 I agree with that. That's usually what's done to 1095 00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:11,680 potential claimants is you just kill them. 1096 00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:12,960 You don't just cast them but that. 1097 00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:17,040 But there are exceptions. The Byzantine Empire would just 1098 00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:20,360 cut the nose and would cut noses off of other claimants and blind 1099 00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:22,600 them and wouldn't kill them like you're not a like. 1100 00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:24,960 No one's going to see you as a viable claimant to be emperor if 1101 00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:26,760 you can't, if you're blind and had your nose cut off. 1102 00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:28,960 Noseless is still better than you, evil guy. 1103 00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:31,840 Also, this is very minor, but I want to point out noseless isn't 1104 00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:34,080 just gross. It would affect your respiratory 1105 00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:36,520 system, your ability to body's ability to cool itself down, 1106 00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:38,720 breathing, germs, and everything else. 1107 00:49:38,720 --> 00:49:40,560 Your nose serves a bunch of functions. 1108 00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:41,800 It would you'd be worse off without. 1109 00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:43,840 Yeah, like, I mean, Tyrion is a good example. 1110 00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:46,520 He has issues with it a lot. Like it's always, I mean he for 1111 00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:48,120 him pretty much. It's always just like scratching 1112 00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:50,360 or and that's bad enough, just constantly itching and being 1113 00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:51,800 irritated. And yeah, but you're right, it's 1114 00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:52,400 worse. Than that. 1115 00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:55,560 So here's another flaw with the sorcery idea, even though the 1116 00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:59,160 ancestor idea fits. Like how did the sorcerer know 1117 00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:01,520 he's in the audience and he sees this kid. 1118 00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:03,440 He's like aha, that's a secret Targaryen. 1119 00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:04,520 Like what? How would he know? 1120 00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:07,000 Like how did he know? So like even this, how did he 1121 00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:09,000 know that guy's special? Like what did the sorcerer see 1122 00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:11,640 in virus and how did he see it? How did he identify this 1123 00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:14,160 quality, whatever it is? Well my question is, well does 1124 00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:16,400 Varys know? Because if Varys knows he could 1125 00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:19,880 have been not so slick about it. He could have let it slip. 1126 00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:23,880 He could have if his related Sarah, Sarah knew and says like 1127 00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:27,600 I don't know, like there's if if if he knows or his family knows 1128 00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:30,080 other people could easily find that out. 1129 00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:35,160 And I also wonder how much of A sense a sorcerer type person 1130 00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:37,600 could have for that type of like you could. 1131 00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:39,240 Identify it? Yeah, somehow. 1132 00:50:39,600 --> 00:50:42,560 I I do. I do feel that it it has to be 1133 00:50:42,560 --> 00:50:47,360 somewhat possible for him to identify that kind of power. 1134 00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:52,400 But I think more likely is that Varys knew his heritage and. 1135 00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:54,240 It's someone else found out about it. 1136 00:50:54,240 --> 00:50:56,520 Yeah, that could that would make some sense I I think. 1137 00:50:56,520 --> 00:51:00,040 I do think that's a little more even if we're not fully on board 1138 00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:02,480 with his ancestry idea that I kind of like that if. 1139 00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:04,560 That's the case. I kind of like that idea too. 1140 00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:08,000 Just I like the idea of various, like learning a lesson in his 1141 00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:10,000 life. He was a different type of 1142 00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:12,080 personality. Seans nodding in agreement. 1143 00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:15,320 There not only in agreement there, but in agreement from a 1144 00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:17,440 different angle too. It's possible that after this 1145 00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:22,280 moment, he a wanted to learn who his ancestry was like. 1146 00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:27,080 He like it might have generated motivation for him to to track 1147 00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:28,800 down secrets. It's something he got really 1148 00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:29,960 good at. That might have been another 1149 00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:32,400 lesson learned here. By his own family, yeah, yeah, 1150 00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:36,440 that's a really good point. And it it's kind of like in the 1151 00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:39,760 inverse of Sir Glendon Ball. He was like, no, my dad was 1152 00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:43,240 definitely fireball, even though there could have been any one of 1153 00:51:43,240 --> 00:51:45,400 the men who visited that that particular brothel. 1154 00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:47,440 Same thing here is like virus. Could it have? 1155 00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:48,680 I think it was definitely Fireball. 1156 00:51:48,760 --> 00:51:50,280 Yeah. And virus is like, it could be 1157 00:51:50,280 --> 00:51:52,040 as simple as like, no, I don't want them to know who it really 1158 00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:53,440 was. So I'll say it was a brothel. 1159 00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:56,800 So let's continue that. The story about the night of the 1160 00:51:56,800 --> 00:51:59,960 ritual, like this is the climax of the story, the the finishing 1161 00:51:59,960 --> 00:52:01,680 move. If it's a performance, and it 1162 00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:04,720 might be, this is like the delivery, the part that matters 1163 00:52:04,720 --> 00:52:07,600 the most quote. Yet I still dream of that night, 1164 00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:12,040 my Lord, Not of the sorcerer, nor his blade, nor even the way 1165 00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:14,040 my manhood shriveled as it burned. 1166 00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:15,400 I dream. Of the. 1167 00:52:15,400 --> 00:52:17,800 Voice. The voice from the flames. 1168 00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:20,440 Was it a God? A demon? 1169 00:52:20,720 --> 00:52:23,920 Some conjurer's trick? I could not tell you. 1170 00:52:24,240 --> 00:52:29,120 And I know all the tricks. All I can say for a certainty is 1171 00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:32,240 that he called it and it answered. 1172 00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:35,120 And since that day. I have hated. 1173 00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:39,600 Magic and all those who practice it, if Lord Stannis is one such. 1174 00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:43,640 I mean to see him dead. So if the story's true, and 1175 00:52:44,240 --> 00:52:47,960 which a good question, we just have to keep asking This 1176 00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:50,080 conjurer's trick is like, why? Who the hell is this guy 1177 00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:52,360 tricking? Like your your your victim. 1178 00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:54,000 You're tricking him. Doesn't make much sense. 1179 00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:55,240 So I don't think it's a conjurer's trick. 1180 00:52:55,240 --> 00:52:58,400 It's just something that he's just acknowledging that I. 1181 00:52:58,440 --> 00:52:59,880 Have no idea what happened. You know 'cause he knows. 1182 00:52:59,880 --> 00:53:02,480 Tyrion is skeptical, which is an interesting aspect of this. 1183 00:53:02,480 --> 00:53:06,560 Tyrion is very skeptical about magic, so if Virus is trying to 1184 00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:08,600 manipulate Tyrion into believing, hey, I'm definitely 1185 00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:11,240 on your side, Stannis is. I would never ally with Stannis. 1186 00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:13,360 Even though Stannis is on his way with an army. 1187 00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:16,640 Even though Stannis is is not unlikely to defeat you and kill 1188 00:53:16,640 --> 00:53:20,360 you all, I'm still on your side even though I've flipped sides 1189 00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:21,560 before. I'm a guy that used to work for 1190 00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:24,160 Aries and then I swipped to Robert and now I'm Joffrey like 1191 00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:27,600 he's switched sides before so he's he knows his loyalty will 1192 00:53:27,600 --> 00:53:29,000 be called into question. He knows. 1193 00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:32,640 He's got to prove he's on their side. 1194 00:53:32,640 --> 00:53:35,440 It's like Tywin being like we killed all those Targaryens to 1195 00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:38,000 make sure everyone knew what side we were on because we 1196 00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:40,320 didn't prove what side we were on earlier in the war. 1197 00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:42,640 We had to be even more demonstrative about it later by 1198 00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:46,520 murdering baby Targaryens to really send that message home. 1199 00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:48,400 Same thing here. He's like Lord Stannis. 1200 00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:51,560 He's 100% my enemy. No matter what ideological 1201 00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:53,320 differences, I could never be on his side. 1202 00:53:53,320 --> 00:53:54,600 And he needs Tyrion to believe that. 1203 00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:58,680 He actually really needs Cersei to believe that even more, which 1204 00:53:58,680 --> 00:54:00,240 it will. Presumably, though, there may be 1205 00:54:00,240 --> 00:54:02,000 some of those conversations happened off Page. 1206 00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:03,720 Or maybe he just expected that to get around. 1207 00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:06,560 And guess what happens during the Battle of the Right Before 1208 00:54:06,560 --> 00:54:09,360 the Battle of Blackwater, Varus happens to expose the antler 1209 00:54:09,360 --> 00:54:12,120 men. A pro Stannis conspiracy? 1210 00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:15,640 You know that it's a good way to prove he's definitely not on 1211 00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:19,000 their side, so. And do you think Varus just 1212 00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:21,760 learned about them right then, Right before that? 1213 00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:23,400 He's probably known for quite a while. 1214 00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:25,640 Let them simmer till the right moment. 1215 00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:28,080 That's exactly what I was implying there, Sean. 1216 00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:30,560 Good catch. Yes, he was like, yeah, he he 1217 00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:31,720 knew about the antler men for a while. 1218 00:54:31,720 --> 00:54:34,480 But he's he he told at the moment that mattered most, I 1219 00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:36,000 think. Or before it was too late. 1220 00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:38,400 Yeah, the the maximum benefit to him. 1221 00:54:38,560 --> 00:54:39,680 But still, and we should entertain. 1222 00:54:39,680 --> 00:54:42,240 This though the idea that this is true, like that ritual really 1223 00:54:42,240 --> 00:54:43,640 happened or. Something like, it really 1224 00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:47,520 happened, which is crazy, right? It's wow, this is like, like I 1225 00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:48,840 said, this is not a form of magic. 1226 00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:51,560 We've seen precisely us. We've seen maybe some similar 1227 00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:54,320 things, like we've heard weird voices from Mary Mazdor's tent. 1228 00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:58,480 We've seen full body burning, so again, why not parts of a body? 1229 00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:01,800 We've seen eunuchs made in a variety of other places, magical 1230 00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:05,480 and non magical, but communing with demonic entities and not 1231 00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:07,520 much of that in this world, right? 1232 00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:09,760 We haven't seen much of that. This says it was demonic. 1233 00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:12,080 It might have been angelic. It might have been angelic or 1234 00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:16,520 and now George says that, like, the gods aren't like beings you 1235 00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:18,720 can talk to. So we can be pretty sure this is 1236 00:55:18,720 --> 00:55:22,040 not a God or a deity, but it's it's a being of some kind it 1237 00:55:22,040 --> 00:55:23,280 talk. You know? 1238 00:55:23,280 --> 00:55:24,480 And again the flames turned blue. 1239 00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:27,080 Which again, might just be embellishment, but it certainly 1240 00:55:27,080 --> 00:55:28,440 makes it a little creepier, you know. 1241 00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:31,520 And yeah, what the heck was that voice if it was a real voice, if 1242 00:55:31,520 --> 00:55:32,840 he really heard? It, you know and. 1243 00:55:32,960 --> 00:55:35,640 He says it gives him more nightmares than the sorcerer or 1244 00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:39,920 the pain or or any of that. Which is like whoa which is big 1245 00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:42,520 if true, but might not be. Might be just embellishment for 1246 00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:45,000 effect roll call. I'm curious each of you. 1247 00:55:45,560 --> 00:55:49,240 Do you believe? That Varys was cut by a sorcerer 1248 00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:51,440 A and B. Do you think it happened like 1249 00:55:51,440 --> 00:55:53,560 that? I don't think he was cut by a 1250 00:55:53,560 --> 00:55:56,320 sorcerer, but. He might have been. 1251 00:55:56,560 --> 00:55:58,080 If you're pinning me down on, I'm open to it. 1252 00:55:58,080 --> 00:56:00,880 Yeah, I know, man, man. I'll say less than 5050 that. 1253 00:56:01,160 --> 00:56:02,720 He was. I think I'm with you on that. 1254 00:56:02,720 --> 00:56:04,480 I think it's less than 5050 for me too. 1255 00:56:04,480 --> 00:56:07,200 As much as we are speculating on this, I don't know that. 1256 00:56:07,200 --> 00:56:09,280 I think it was a sorcerer. If you'd asked me before this 1257 00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:10,320 episode. Though I would. 1258 00:56:10,720 --> 00:56:11,840 I might have believed it, but it was. 1259 00:56:11,840 --> 00:56:14,000 Delving into this has been make me very suspicious. 1260 00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:15,680 Yeah, I don't know. I think there's a lot of holes 1261 00:56:15,680 --> 00:56:17,560 in this, in this theory. Yeah. 1262 00:56:17,560 --> 00:56:19,680 I think there's holes in him being castrated, even as much as 1263 00:56:19,680 --> 00:56:24,040 I like that, it gives me evidence for him having 1264 00:56:24,120 --> 00:56:27,000 Targaryen Blackfyre heritage. I like that aspect of it. 1265 00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:31,280 I think just him being castrated is enough for him to to have 1266 00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:33,160 proof of him having that heritage. 1267 00:56:33,240 --> 00:56:34,080 He doesn't. I don't know. 1268 00:56:34,080 --> 00:56:35,920 What about you, Sean? Pin you down. 1269 00:56:36,080 --> 00:56:39,880 I don't think so either. I'm I'm highly suspicious of of 1270 00:56:39,880 --> 00:56:42,800 a lot of surrounding this. Like literally till you just 1271 00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:45,960 started asking this question. Direct questions like do we even 1272 00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:48,440 know for sure he's castrated? Do we even know for sure that is 1273 00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:50,560 true? That theory is out there. 1274 00:56:50,560 --> 00:56:52,560 He does have the. Build of one like he has the 1275 00:56:52,560 --> 00:56:56,320 plumpness that the plumpness that we hear is is associated 1276 00:56:56,320 --> 00:56:58,840 with that it's it's like a real world thing and the and the hair 1277 00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:00,880 thing but. Could just be leaning into it. 1278 00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:02,640 I don't really go there like that would be. 1279 00:57:02,640 --> 00:57:04,280 Kind of. I don't go there either, but it 1280 00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:06,120 is something that occurs to me it seems like. 1281 00:57:06,120 --> 00:57:08,560 A question worth asking. Yeah, it seems like something 1282 00:57:08,560 --> 00:57:11,960 that someone could find out if they wanted or needed to, and so 1283 00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:14,360 he shouldn't lie about. Like things that can be found 1284 00:57:14,360 --> 00:57:16,000 out for sure. He shouldn't lie about that. 1285 00:57:16,280 --> 00:57:17,880 Yeah, I think they're right there. 1286 00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:21,240 If anyone ever had a reason to see his between his legs, yeah, 1287 00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:23,840 between his legs. Even if it's accidental, or 1288 00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:26,680 maybe he shows some people to make sure it was not, he gets. 1289 00:57:26,680 --> 00:57:29,600 Sick and and ends up like passed out and and probably still 1290 00:57:29,600 --> 00:57:30,760 looks. At him, yeah. 1291 00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:33,240 And the TV show he definitely. Is cause what's her name like? 1292 00:57:33,240 --> 00:57:34,800 Grabs him in the crotch and his and he goes. 1293 00:57:35,960 --> 00:57:37,640 But the show is not relevant here at all. 1294 00:57:38,360 --> 00:57:40,720 In the show he also has the sorcerer shipped to him in a 1295 00:57:40,720 --> 00:57:46,000 box, which is like OK, you know. That said, I do have a question 1296 00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:48,280 in the second-half about did he ever track that guy down? 1297 00:57:48,880 --> 00:57:50,600 Which he might have he he learned all these secrets, all 1298 00:57:50,600 --> 00:57:52,080 this power. He knows where the guy lived. 1299 00:57:52,320 --> 00:57:54,280 And then he took me out of his hair, took him to his house, and 1300 00:57:54,280 --> 00:57:57,840 did that stuff at his house. To be clear, when you say that 1301 00:57:57,840 --> 00:58:00,640 guy, that guy might have just is the guy who castrated him, who 1302 00:58:00,640 --> 00:58:02,320 isn't necessarily a sorcerer to the. 1303 00:58:02,320 --> 00:58:03,520 Extent or even a real person, yeah. 1304 00:58:03,520 --> 00:58:07,040 Or even a real person. But yeah, if he someone 1305 00:58:07,040 --> 00:58:09,800 castrated him and that someone who could be tracked down and 1306 00:58:09,800 --> 00:58:13,520 that someone might have even been had some sort of maligned 1307 00:58:13,520 --> 00:58:16,160 sorceress intent. But I just think we're kind of 1308 00:58:16,160 --> 00:58:19,800 agreed that it wasn't a ritual like we're seeing like he's 1309 00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:21,400 describing. Yeah, it might have been a. 1310 00:58:21,480 --> 00:58:23,640 Ritual that did nothing like this is this guys just like 1311 00:58:23,640 --> 00:58:25,960 trying stuff and it's like, yeah, there was there was no 1312 00:58:25,960 --> 00:58:27,920 voice he just cut. He cut my. 1313 00:58:27,920 --> 00:58:29,400 Parts off burned them and nothing happened. 1314 00:58:29,640 --> 00:58:31,320 You know it's. Not as good of a story. 1315 00:58:31,480 --> 00:58:34,200 Here's a couple other thoughts, whether it was a sorcerer or 1316 00:58:34,200 --> 00:58:37,200 someone trying to track down blackfires, secret blackfires, 1317 00:58:37,200 --> 00:58:39,720 or whatever, when they're trying to kill all Roberts bastards. 1318 00:58:40,200 --> 00:58:42,080 Do you think they might have killed a couple innocent kids on 1319 00:58:42,080 --> 00:58:44,320 accident, just to be sure? Just grabbing whoever they think 1320 00:58:44,320 --> 00:58:45,040 might would be. It's. 1321 00:58:45,400 --> 00:58:47,160 Entirely possible when it fits, yeah. 1322 00:58:47,520 --> 00:58:51,160 So he might have been just someone on a mission to track 1323 00:58:51,160 --> 00:58:54,560 down secret Blackfires and pick bars out and was just wrong. 1324 00:58:54,600 --> 00:58:57,200 Still, it's a little weird that he would just not kill him. 1325 00:58:57,200 --> 00:59:00,200 Why? Why pay money to get him then 1326 00:59:00,200 --> 00:59:03,360 castrate him and not kill him? That those are like a weird 1327 00:59:03,360 --> 00:59:04,920 series of. I guess so. 1328 00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:06,480 You could still have him as a slave. 1329 00:59:06,560 --> 00:59:08,920 But he left him for dead, theoretically. 1330 00:59:08,960 --> 00:59:10,840 Maybe that's a lie. Also, maybe he didn't love him 1331 00:59:10,840 --> 00:59:11,880 for dead. Maybe he took him as an 1332 00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:13,880 apprentice and taught him all his black magic arts. 1333 00:59:13,880 --> 00:59:16,240 And that's all Paris is hiding. His age, you know? 1334 00:59:16,680 --> 00:59:18,440 He's got a. Glamour on his crotch. 1335 00:59:18,440 --> 00:59:19,680 That's why. It looks like he's a eunuch. 1336 00:59:19,680 --> 00:59:20,880 But he's not. It's actually there. 1337 00:59:20,880 --> 00:59:24,080 He's actually really well hung. He's actually a woman. 1338 00:59:24,720 --> 00:59:26,600 I'm half joking. Maybe more than half joking 1339 00:59:26,600 --> 00:59:29,640 about some of this stuff, but it's worth noting that I think 1340 00:59:29,640 --> 00:59:33,080 Ned and a couple other people say that he knows the black 1341 00:59:33,080 --> 00:59:34,920 arts. That's how it's introduced, 1342 00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:36,200 yeah. Catelyn's like, I swear he knows 1343 00:59:36,200 --> 00:59:36,760 some black. Art. 1344 00:59:36,760 --> 00:59:38,480 Yeah, which? Is might be all the more reason 1345 00:59:38,480 --> 00:59:42,320 for VAR is to separate himself. And no, I hate the black arts. 1346 00:59:43,040 --> 00:59:44,760 By the way, I'm using black arts over here like. 1347 00:59:45,840 --> 00:59:49,080 Thematically, as a in a story sends, I like the idea more of 1348 00:59:49,080 --> 00:59:53,240 him as a as a counterpart to our magic users. 1349 00:59:53,240 --> 00:59:55,400 And be like no, you can still be despicable even if you're 1350 00:59:55,400 --> 00:59:58,480 against magic. Like you know you don't doesn't 1351 00:59:58,480 --> 01:00:03,680 require the supernatural for you to be an awful, awful person. 1352 01:00:03,920 --> 01:00:08,160 And my and my taste when I look at it from like if I take a step 1353 01:00:08,160 --> 01:00:10,880 back and look at all the characters and who's represented 1354 01:00:10,880 --> 01:00:14,960 doing what, you know, I I like him as a foil to a Melisandre 1355 01:00:14,960 --> 01:00:16,760 type thing, I guess. Yeah, I yeah, I do. 1356 01:00:16,920 --> 01:00:17,600 Too. Yeah, about to say. 1357 01:00:17,600 --> 01:00:19,640 Melisandre just wanting to sacrifice children. 1358 01:00:20,000 --> 01:00:23,920 Vara seems to be also, yeah. So which is that's a great catch 1359 01:00:23,920 --> 01:00:25,960 and also we have to think about this politically. 1360 01:00:26,520 --> 01:00:28,960 Varus's goal, his long term goal, is to elevate Aegon. 1361 01:00:29,320 --> 01:00:31,560 So he's on one hand he doesn't want to look like, doesn't want 1362 01:00:31,560 --> 01:00:33,240 the Lannister to think he's going to switch to Santis. 1363 01:00:33,480 --> 01:00:36,680 But actually he wants Aegon to win, and he doesn't want Aegon 1364 01:00:36,680 --> 01:00:38,840 to fight Stannis. He wants Aegon to fight the 1365 01:00:38,840 --> 01:00:42,000 Lannisters, who are much easier target and much they're hated 1366 01:00:42,240 --> 01:00:44,040 and not. And with, especially if Tywin's 1367 01:00:44,040 --> 01:00:45,680 out of the way, eventually, that's even more true. 1368 01:00:45,680 --> 01:00:48,200 They didn't have good leadership once Tywin was gone. 1369 01:00:48,200 --> 01:00:51,440 Stannis is his hardcore, doesn't like Varus. 1370 01:00:51,440 --> 01:00:53,680 Varus already knows that Santis won't work with Varus. 1371 01:00:53,960 --> 01:00:56,440 He won't keep him on his council, so he's like, so 1372 01:00:56,440 --> 01:01:00,400 there's a lot of reasons for Varys to not want Stannis to win 1373 01:01:00,640 --> 01:01:03,440 for his own goals and for his own Stannis. 1374 01:01:03,440 --> 01:01:06,120 His own opinion of Varys being against magic, though, we can 1375 01:01:06,120 --> 01:01:08,040 take that a little farther. This would not only put him in 1376 01:01:08,040 --> 01:01:09,760 conflict with Stannis and Melisandre, but people like 1377 01:01:09,760 --> 01:01:12,240 Maccoro. Maybe even Danny might get. 1378 01:01:12,240 --> 01:01:14,840 Complicated his feelings on her. If he you know her for being the 1379 01:01:15,840 --> 01:01:18,040 miracle worker who brings back Dragons, I don't know he. 1380 01:01:18,040 --> 01:01:19,920 He hears that she's hatched Dragons, but he doesn't. 1381 01:01:19,920 --> 01:01:22,320 Necessarily know the the magic behind all that. 1382 01:01:22,440 --> 01:01:24,800 And she's not an active practitioner of black magic, 1383 01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:26,560 necessarily. But still, it's complicated. 1384 01:01:26,840 --> 01:01:29,200 And I'm so curious about Varus's opinion on Dragon. 1385 01:01:29,200 --> 01:01:32,280 Yeah, Dragons and and yeah, so Jon Snow could be an issue. 1386 01:01:32,280 --> 01:01:35,080 Like if Jon Snow is Secret Targaryen and that comes out, or 1387 01:01:35,080 --> 01:01:36,400 if he's undead, like, what is that? 1388 01:01:36,400 --> 01:01:38,040 What does Varus think about Walking Dead? 1389 01:01:38,240 --> 01:01:42,040 What does Varus think about? Bran of Freaking Tree Wizard. 1390 01:01:42,040 --> 01:01:43,320 You know, what is that going to do? 1391 01:01:43,320 --> 01:01:47,440 Like is Varus on a collision course with being anti Stark 1392 01:01:47,440 --> 01:01:49,840 because of Jon Bran and? Aria like Arias. 1393 01:01:49,840 --> 01:01:51,000 They're skin changers like these. 1394 01:01:51,000 --> 01:01:53,200 None of these things like seem to line up well with what Varus 1395 01:01:53,560 --> 01:01:56,080 likes or his goals. Of course, they definitely don't 1396 01:01:56,080 --> 01:01:57,760 go with his goals of putting egg on on the throne. 1397 01:01:57,760 --> 01:02:00,560 With what Varus says he likes I. Right, right. 1398 01:02:00,560 --> 01:02:02,120 There's always that. Whether he's really against 1399 01:02:02,120 --> 01:02:03,400 magic in the first place. Good point. 1400 01:02:03,400 --> 01:02:06,560 Yeah. But the Starks might all present 1401 01:02:06,760 --> 01:02:09,040 threats to his master plan. Yeah. 1402 01:02:09,040 --> 01:02:14,200 And I guess we're saying that he can not be a magic user but also 1403 01:02:14,200 --> 01:02:17,760 not be violently against magic because of a traumatic 1404 01:02:17,760 --> 01:02:19,360 experience. Like we're saying there's a 1405 01:02:19,360 --> 01:02:22,800 middle ground where he is spinning this as a way to get a 1406 01:02:22,800 --> 01:02:29,160 sense of Tyrion and and cast, you know, shade on Stannis all 1407 01:02:29,160 --> 01:02:33,080 etcetera, as we mentioned. But he might not actually hate 1408 01:02:33,080 --> 01:02:33,960 magic. Yeah. 1409 01:02:34,320 --> 01:02:38,000 One other point before our break here, I want to point out what a 1410 01:02:38,000 --> 01:02:39,560 parallel. There's several parallels here. 1411 01:02:40,000 --> 01:02:43,520 Aria and Varus have parallels with regarding their youth and 1412 01:02:43,520 --> 01:02:46,280 being castaway from their family and growing up in Essos. 1413 01:02:46,280 --> 01:02:51,560 Like kind of taken in by some sketchy organization, you know, 1414 01:02:51,560 --> 01:02:56,320 that trains you in ways that are, you know, useful in other 1415 01:02:56,320 --> 01:02:57,560 ways. Like they're both very good at 1416 01:02:57,560 --> 01:03:00,200 mummery and things like that and detached from their family. 1417 01:03:00,200 --> 01:03:01,840 All that. And then with Danny, the whole 1418 01:03:02,280 --> 01:03:06,800 being similar situation chase throughout Essos with a target 1419 01:03:06,800 --> 01:03:11,240 on your back and sold into slavery and you know being 1420 01:03:11,240 --> 01:03:13,160 abused and and all sorts of things like that. 1421 01:03:13,280 --> 01:03:17,200 But Ned Stark as well, hiding a secret candidate that they're 1422 01:03:18,000 --> 01:03:20,680 but with the inverse, Ned's trying to keep Jon on the down 1423 01:03:20,680 --> 01:03:23,960 low doesn't want him to go for the throne, whereas Varus is. 1424 01:03:24,240 --> 01:03:27,600 Probably has a false. Claimant that he does want to go 1425 01:03:27,600 --> 01:03:32,160 for the throne, and the why of that is part something we'll 1426 01:03:32,800 --> 01:03:35,440 work on a bit in the second-half of this episode. 1427 01:03:35,680 --> 01:03:40,640 All right, so today I want to announce who won our episode, 1428 01:03:40,640 --> 01:03:42,720 Topics Moot. We called it on Patreon. 1429 01:03:42,720 --> 01:03:46,160 We had picked 12 topics over the course of the month of mostly 1430 01:03:46,160 --> 01:03:49,360 February, and there was lots of activity. 1431 01:03:49,360 --> 01:03:51,520 A lot of y'all participated. It was, I was very glad to see 1432 01:03:51,520 --> 01:03:53,080 that. Lots of discussion, lots of 1433 01:03:53,520 --> 01:03:55,680 discussing about the polls and the different possibility of the 1434 01:03:55,680 --> 01:03:59,040 topics and trying to decide which ones to. 1435 01:03:59,040 --> 01:04:01,360 Pick out of all the choices that we pushed out there for y'all, 1436 01:04:01,360 --> 01:04:04,400 so let me announce those those 12 winners. 1437 01:04:05,120 --> 01:04:07,080 Undead Character Poll winner Cold Hands. 1438 01:04:07,080 --> 01:04:10,600 That episode's already been made unfinished Scripted series 1439 01:04:10,600 --> 01:04:13,240 episode winner Nymeria. We'll be finishing the Nymeria 1440 01:04:13,240 --> 01:04:16,400 series. Yay Robert's Rebellion era poll 1441 01:04:16,400 --> 01:04:18,840 was the winner was The Abduction of Lyanna. 1442 01:04:18,960 --> 01:04:22,280 We had a variety of historical influences and authorial 1443 01:04:22,280 --> 01:04:26,720 influences, but y'all mostly picked the historical 1444 01:04:26,720 --> 01:04:28,400 influences. The authorial influences were 1445 01:04:28,400 --> 01:04:31,360 defeated. The Black Dinner won a runoff 1446 01:04:31,360 --> 01:04:34,680 poll against Jr. Tolkien, the Black Dinner being 1447 01:04:34,680 --> 01:04:35,920 the inspiration for the Red Wedding. 1448 01:04:36,440 --> 01:04:39,200 Also winners were Rome and A Song of Ice and Fire. 1449 01:04:39,200 --> 01:04:40,680 Rome's influence on A Song of Ice and Fire. 1450 01:04:40,680 --> 01:04:43,240 Not just the TV show, meaning the mostly you know, the Roman 1451 01:04:43,240 --> 01:04:45,640 people and their Republic and their empire, but also the TV. 1452 01:04:45,640 --> 01:04:48,120 Show 'cause it was actually, there is a bit of a connection 1453 01:04:48,120 --> 01:04:50,280 there between the making of Game of Thrones and the making of the 1454 01:04:50,280 --> 01:04:52,600 TV show Rome. And the Wars of the Roses, 1455 01:04:52,600 --> 01:04:55,840 Perhaps the most famous historical parallel to early A 1456 01:04:55,840 --> 01:04:57,800 Song of Ice and Fire. Not so much later, A Song of Ice 1457 01:04:57,800 --> 01:04:59,040 and Fire. Although in some ways yes. 1458 01:04:59,040 --> 01:05:03,120 Still, you mostly favored non POV characters for this episode, 1459 01:05:03,120 --> 01:05:06,560 Virus this episode. Was chosen by Topic Smoot. 1460 01:05:06,800 --> 01:05:10,120 We wanted to see which other characters y'all wanted to see 1461 01:05:10,120 --> 01:05:13,080 done in the young slash education of that. 1462 01:05:13,080 --> 01:05:15,960 We started with Ned. Y'all mostly favored older 1463 01:05:15,960 --> 01:05:19,320 characters. Barristan almost won, Young Nan 1464 01:05:19,640 --> 01:05:23,360 almost won. Maester Amon did win, along with 1465 01:05:23,360 --> 01:05:27,320 Varys and the OFT mentioned in this episode, Melisandre. 1466 01:05:27,320 --> 01:05:30,240 So Melisandre will be and and Maester Amon will both have 1467 01:05:30,280 --> 01:05:33,120 Young version episodes later this year. 1468 01:05:33,440 --> 01:05:36,680 And finally the winners of the supernatural slash Miscellaneous 1469 01:05:36,680 --> 01:05:38,800 categories. The missing. 1470 01:05:39,120 --> 01:05:40,720 That'll be an episode on characters who have gone 1471 01:05:40,720 --> 01:05:42,960 missing, people who we haven't seen in a while, like what 1472 01:05:42,960 --> 01:05:47,520 happened to Captain Obvious, what happened to the Widow of 1473 01:05:47,520 --> 01:05:48,920 the Waterfront? What happened to? 1474 01:05:48,920 --> 01:05:50,480 There's a lot of characters that I don't have a list in. 1475 01:05:50,480 --> 01:05:53,520 Front of me, you know. Stone snake People like that 1476 01:05:53,520 --> 01:05:58,640 next to be What is the shadow? As in the ash eye by the shadow. 1477 01:05:58,840 --> 01:06:00,680 What is it? Where'd it come from? 1478 01:06:00,680 --> 01:06:03,520 What relevance might it have to forms of magic that we see in 1479 01:06:03,520 --> 01:06:05,200 Westeros or might see in Westeros? 1480 01:06:05,480 --> 01:06:07,760 Big fun, supernatural world building mystery. 1481 01:06:08,280 --> 01:06:11,480 And last but certainly not least, what happened to 1482 01:06:11,520 --> 01:06:13,680 Hardhome? An episode all about Hardhome. 1483 01:06:14,120 --> 01:06:17,080 Where, how it was built and formed and then what happened to 1484 01:06:17,120 --> 01:06:20,320 it with its fiery doom sort of thing that happened. 1485 01:06:20,320 --> 01:06:23,000 And as well we'll have a follow up on our discussion of 1486 01:06:23,000 --> 01:06:25,560 volcanoes, which we started. Back when we discussed the Doom, 1487 01:06:26,120 --> 01:06:28,920 we said we would follow up with Hardhum episode eventually that 1488 01:06:28,920 --> 01:06:32,080 also delved into some of the recent volcanic eruptions on 1489 01:06:32,080 --> 01:06:33,040 Earth. So we'll have a little. 1490 01:06:33,320 --> 01:06:36,160 Real world parallels there and in particular I'm thinking of 1491 01:06:36,160 --> 01:06:40,480 the Tonga eruption which was really incredible and 1492 01:06:40,480 --> 01:06:44,840 devastating, but also. With modern science, we're able 1493 01:06:44,840 --> 01:06:47,200 to track it in ways that previous earthquakes have not 1494 01:06:47,200 --> 01:06:49,720 been able to be measured. So some interesting stuff there. 1495 01:06:49,840 --> 01:06:52,920 So yes, folks, this is our pitch to you to sign up for our 1496 01:06:52,920 --> 01:06:54,320 Patreon. We're always doing fun stuff 1497 01:06:54,320 --> 01:06:57,040 over there, whether it's voting on topics, whether it's doing 1498 01:06:57,040 --> 01:06:59,200 lots of them or a little of them, whether it's trivia. 1499 01:06:59,240 --> 01:07:02,680 Yeah, we have a Song of Ice and Fire trivia coming up again this 1500 01:07:02,680 --> 01:07:07,320 month For anyone who's a patron. We hosted on Discord and that'll 1501 01:07:07,320 --> 01:07:10,760 be Tuesday, March 26th at 9:00 PM Eastern. 1502 01:07:10,760 --> 01:07:13,320 But no matter what month you're listening to this, we have a 1503 01:07:13,320 --> 01:07:16,280 monthly hangout, whether it's trivia or Jackbox games. 1504 01:07:16,600 --> 01:07:21,840 This month again, March 26th for trivia and Tuesday, April 30th 1505 01:07:21,960 --> 01:07:25,240 at 9:00 PM for Discord Jackbox Games. 1506 01:07:25,920 --> 01:07:29,840 So, you know, come join the community, be part of voting, be 1507 01:07:29,840 --> 01:07:34,640 part of Hangouts, be part of, you know, seeing episodes a 1508 01:07:34,640 --> 01:07:36,920 little bit early when they're out on podcast. 1509 01:07:36,920 --> 01:07:38,360 There's there's many benefits. We could. 1510 01:07:38,560 --> 01:07:41,160 We could talk with you. About over 20 bonus episodes, I 1511 01:07:41,160 --> 01:07:42,360 believe. At this point I don't have a 1512 01:07:42,360 --> 01:07:45,120 count, but we have a lot of episodes that are not available 1513 01:07:45,120 --> 01:07:46,960 on the main feed. So if you want more History of 1514 01:07:46,960 --> 01:07:51,280 Westeros, as little as 5 bucks a month gets you a lot more 1515 01:07:51,280 --> 01:07:53,360 episodes. And more to come. 1516 01:07:53,760 --> 01:07:57,360 So patreon.com/history of Westeros, that's where you go to 1517 01:07:57,360 --> 01:07:59,880 get that done question from Cannibal the Dragon. 1518 01:08:00,000 --> 01:08:01,680 Who do you think is part of ours is family. 1519 01:08:01,680 --> 01:08:03,160 I think he is the grandson of Bitter Steel. 1520 01:08:03,160 --> 01:08:05,360 You know, I used to entertain that idea too, but I once asked 1521 01:08:05,360 --> 01:08:08,480 George RR Martin straight up did Bitter Steel have any kids? 1522 01:08:08,760 --> 01:08:11,240 He said no. So Bitter Steel has no 1523 01:08:11,240 --> 01:08:12,240 descendants. Unfortunately. 1524 01:08:12,240 --> 01:08:14,560 He could be was. It a no, I know. 1525 01:08:14,560 --> 01:08:16,120 I don't think he. Said no, you're right, he said 1526 01:08:16,120 --> 01:08:18,000 no, I don't think so. So he gave himself an out in 1527 01:08:18,000 --> 01:08:21,120 case he changed his mind. But for now it's a no, 1528 01:08:22,040 --> 01:08:24,040 unfortunately. So there it's still possibly 1529 01:08:24,040 --> 01:08:26,479 connected to Blackfires or targets other way, but probably 1530 01:08:26,479 --> 01:08:27,720 not directly through Bitter Steel. 1531 01:08:27,920 --> 01:08:30,479 And it's a good guess though, because Bitter Steel married one 1532 01:08:30,479 --> 01:08:33,040 of Damon's daughters, so Damon Blackfyre's daughter. 1533 01:08:33,040 --> 01:08:35,120 So the idea that they. Could have had children is very, 1534 01:08:35,359 --> 01:08:37,479 very much there and they would have been blackfire on both 1535 01:08:37,479 --> 01:08:40,880 sides in a in a sense. So Anthony De Palma asks. 1536 01:08:41,160 --> 01:08:42,840 I wonder if ours had another name when he was a slave. 1537 01:08:42,840 --> 01:08:44,720 Like how Melisandre remembers being Melanie. 1538 01:08:44,720 --> 01:08:46,080 Oh yeah, Slave name. Yes. 1539 01:08:46,080 --> 01:08:48,359 Virus might be his own name. Like Grey Worm. 1540 01:08:48,359 --> 01:08:51,240 That's not his real name. And yeah, very good question. 1541 01:08:51,240 --> 01:08:52,399 Yeah, maybe that's not his real name. 1542 01:08:52,479 --> 01:08:53,720 I have no idea what it. Would be. 1543 01:08:54,200 --> 01:08:56,120 But yeah, it could be some other name. 1544 01:08:56,840 --> 01:08:57,840 Aegon. No, I'm joking. 1545 01:08:57,920 --> 01:09:00,240 Aegon Oh God, I'm. Totally joking. 1546 01:09:00,240 --> 01:09:05,160 It's visarious, John Rohel says It's virus, an offspring of 1547 01:09:05,160 --> 01:09:07,720 Damon Blackfyre's sister. I figure that's how the sword 1548 01:09:07,720 --> 01:09:11,160 Blackfyre ends up with MO Patis. Well, we figure the sword ends 1549 01:09:11,160 --> 01:09:14,479 up with him through other means, if he even has it, which we do 1550 01:09:14,479 --> 01:09:17,800 think he does. Certainly in a deleted scene 1551 01:09:17,800 --> 01:09:20,359 version of an earlier chapter that George wrote, it seemed to 1552 01:09:20,359 --> 01:09:23,439 be the indication it wasn't 100% confirmed, but it does seem to 1553 01:09:23,439 --> 01:09:26,279 be what George intended. I think he may have changed his 1554 01:09:26,279 --> 01:09:28,040 mind. But in my case, I don't want 1555 01:09:28,040 --> 01:09:30,240 you. I lean towards the theory that 1556 01:09:30,240 --> 01:09:35,240 if there's a a Targaryen heritage, I like the idea that 1557 01:09:35,240 --> 01:09:39,080 it stems from Sarah Targaryen who went to lease and then 1558 01:09:39,120 --> 01:09:42,160 started a brothel and Volantis and did have sons. 1559 01:09:42,800 --> 01:09:47,240 Just because I like the the connection of of the name Sarah, 1560 01:09:47,680 --> 01:09:50,600 like literally her name is Sarah just spelled differently. 1561 01:09:50,600 --> 01:09:53,479 And like there's just a lot like like her sisters, viscera but 1562 01:09:53,479 --> 01:09:55,640 spelled, I don't know, there's a few things there. 1563 01:09:56,040 --> 01:09:57,800 I'm a little bit partial to that. 1564 01:09:57,800 --> 01:10:01,920 I know that there are some flaws and it makes them a Targaryen 1565 01:10:01,920 --> 01:10:05,400 heritage, not a black fire heritage, but those Targaryens 1566 01:10:05,400 --> 01:10:08,000 could have also married into some of the black fires there. 1567 01:10:08,000 --> 01:10:11,120 Yeah, absolutely not mutually exclusive by any means. 1568 01:10:11,520 --> 01:10:13,880 So there's a couple of different ways the sword could have ended 1569 01:10:13,880 --> 01:10:17,640 up with Illyrio, but there does have to be an explanation 1570 01:10:17,640 --> 01:10:20,000 because the Targaryens would have recaptured it after the 1571 01:10:20,000 --> 01:10:22,360 third Black Fire Rebellion. When Hagon Black Fire 1572 01:10:22,360 --> 01:10:25,120 surrendered, he lost and surrendered and was executed 1573 01:10:25,120 --> 01:10:27,720 very dishonorably. But you would think he had the 1574 01:10:27,720 --> 01:10:31,880 sword when he was, when that happened and what? 1575 01:10:31,880 --> 01:10:33,080 But we lost track of it after that. 1576 01:10:33,080 --> 01:10:36,160 We don't know how it went from there to there or not. 1577 01:10:36,320 --> 01:10:38,320 Maybe it was stolen. That would make sense. 1578 01:10:38,320 --> 01:10:39,920 Just being stolen is entirely possible. 1579 01:10:40,200 --> 01:10:42,720 It's the safest guess, probably at this point, but. 1580 01:10:42,760 --> 01:10:43,520 Who knows? Who knows? 1581 01:10:43,560 --> 01:10:46,480 Arya Saxena says it could be that the source renew virus's 1582 01:10:46,480 --> 01:10:48,680 parents a new virus when he was younger, so that could solve the 1583 01:10:48,680 --> 01:10:50,080 how it is the source for no, he has real blood. 1584 01:10:50,200 --> 01:10:53,760 Yeah, he could like several different free. 1585 01:10:53,760 --> 01:10:59,040 Folk look at John and go. He looks like a Stark, you know, 1586 01:10:59,040 --> 01:11:00,720 So, like certain families do have looks. 1587 01:11:01,080 --> 01:11:02,520 Now, I don't know that Varys has the look. 1588 01:11:02,520 --> 01:11:04,120 It's never been described to us that way. 1589 01:11:04,120 --> 01:11:06,760 But maybe when he was younger, maybe when he had hair, maybe 1590 01:11:06,760 --> 01:11:08,120 there was certain features, you know? 1591 01:11:08,200 --> 01:11:10,440 Maybe he covers the look up. Yeah, maybe he does. 1592 01:11:10,480 --> 01:11:12,240 You're right. So that's a good possibility. 1593 01:11:12,240 --> 01:11:13,440 Yeah. Maybe there was just some 1594 01:11:13,440 --> 01:11:15,000 physical traits that made it look like that. 1595 01:11:15,000 --> 01:11:17,200 Yeah, I'm down for that. Certainly you can't dismiss that 1596 01:11:17,200 --> 01:11:19,640 possibility. Joe Magician says his obsession 1597 01:11:19,640 --> 01:11:21,600 with secrets could stem from this, where letting his ancestry 1598 01:11:21,600 --> 01:11:23,720 slip got him castrated, So made him more secret. 1599 01:11:23,720 --> 01:11:26,080 Absolutely. A mistake he'll never make 1600 01:11:26,080 --> 01:11:28,720 again. Kind of like oops, I'm you 1601 01:11:28,840 --> 01:11:30,800 normally don't get to make that mistake twice. 1602 01:11:30,800 --> 01:11:34,760 Like as we said, this would have more likely made him we we would 1603 01:11:34,760 --> 01:11:36,600 guess he's more likely to. Be killed over this? 1604 01:11:36,600 --> 01:11:38,240 Little did. We know it doesn't have to be 1605 01:11:38,240 --> 01:11:40,280 the only case. Little did we know, he actually 1606 01:11:40,280 --> 01:11:42,600 did make the mistake twice. The first time they took the 1607 01:11:42,600 --> 01:11:44,120 root and the second time the sound. 1608 01:11:44,360 --> 01:11:48,520 Oh God, that's so gruesome, Jesse Johnson says. 1609 01:11:48,520 --> 01:11:50,520 I'm a bit behind, but I always believed Varus was taking the 1610 01:11:50,520 --> 01:11:53,480 story of how Unsullied are made to burn their own parts and also 1611 01:11:53,480 --> 01:11:55,160 Illyria surrounded by Unsullied guards. 1612 01:11:55,760 --> 01:11:57,120 Good. Point they he does. 1613 01:11:57,120 --> 01:11:59,480 Grey Worm does sort of phrase it that way. 1614 01:11:59,480 --> 01:12:02,800 He's like the the goddess that we worship, the Lady of battle, 1615 01:12:02,800 --> 01:12:04,360 Lady of Spears, or whatever they call her. 1616 01:12:04,360 --> 01:12:06,240 It's like we don't even like telling you her name. 1617 01:12:06,360 --> 01:12:07,960 She's a private thing that we worship. 1618 01:12:08,120 --> 01:12:11,000 Only those who who sacrifice their manhood can can worship 1619 01:12:11,000 --> 01:12:12,680 her or whatever. It's like their secret goddess. 1620 01:12:12,680 --> 01:12:14,560 Basically. He's uncomfortable telling Danny 1621 01:12:14,560 --> 01:12:16,960 and he's not uncomfortable with anything about her being in 1622 01:12:16,960 --> 01:12:18,000 charge. Really. 1623 01:12:18,000 --> 01:12:19,680 It's like the one thing that he's uncomfortable about. 1624 01:12:20,000 --> 01:12:23,080 So yeah, I mean that is an interesting. 1625 01:12:23,360 --> 01:12:26,880 Like if he's like OK, think of the movie The Usual Suspects 1626 01:12:26,880 --> 01:12:29,880 where Kevin Spacey's character Kaiser Sosa is just taking 1627 01:12:29,880 --> 01:12:33,520 details off the wall behind Chaz Palminteri. 1628 01:12:33,520 --> 01:12:36,200 Chaz Palminteri's character, he's like this name and he's 1629 01:12:36,200 --> 01:12:39,800 just using the details to to lie and make his story on the fly. 1630 01:12:40,160 --> 01:12:41,920 So that could this is that's basically what Jesse is saying 1631 01:12:41,920 --> 01:12:44,440 here is like the elements from what Virus has learned about 1632 01:12:44,440 --> 01:12:47,240 Unix and Unsullied. Those elements are in this story 1633 01:12:47,240 --> 01:12:49,640 which is with the dark sorcery added in, but the brassiere and 1634 01:12:49,640 --> 01:12:52,960 the manhood being burned there, those are associated with the 1635 01:12:52,960 --> 01:12:55,840 Unsullied. So, yeah, yeah, Good catch, good 1636 01:12:55,840 --> 01:12:57,960 catch. Flip side, maybe the person who 1637 01:12:57,960 --> 01:13:00,240 castrated him worships the same God. 1638 01:13:00,480 --> 01:13:03,800 That's, I don't know. At least another angle to take 1639 01:13:03,800 --> 01:13:05,920 on. Interesting, April, May says. 1640 01:13:05,920 --> 01:13:08,240 Well, the only other person who has eyes like Virus is Quaith. 1641 01:13:08,240 --> 01:13:10,560 Dark, wet, and shiny Virus and Quaith eyes. 1642 01:13:10,560 --> 01:13:13,240 I don't recall that description of Virus's eyes. 1643 01:13:13,240 --> 01:13:17,040 But if Virus has a glass candle and is speaking to Danny, well, 1644 01:13:17,040 --> 01:13:20,320 that'd be interesting. Of course we've seen Quaith like 1645 01:13:20,320 --> 01:13:21,760 on page right in front of Danny's. 1646 01:13:21,760 --> 01:13:23,680 He wasn't. In a glass candle when she met 1647 01:13:23,680 --> 01:13:26,280 her the first time. Like standing there, but you 1648 01:13:26,280 --> 01:13:27,400 know, there could be a quick connection. 1649 01:13:27,400 --> 01:13:30,920 That's certainly Quaith is a giant mystery, so I'd have to 1650 01:13:30,920 --> 01:13:32,480 verify that. About the eyes, I don't remember 1651 01:13:32,480 --> 01:13:34,080 that description. I don't remember any description 1652 01:13:34,080 --> 01:13:37,520 of Varus's eyes, to be honest. I Shaya, do you think Varys has 1653 01:13:37,520 --> 01:13:40,640 beady little spider eyes? Dark. 1654 01:13:40,880 --> 01:13:43,160 He's hiding his other six eyes. He does. 1655 01:13:43,160 --> 01:13:45,960 Dark beast spider eyes. Nice deep cut reference there, 1656 01:13:45,960 --> 01:13:48,360 Sean. Very few people will get that. 1657 01:13:48,800 --> 01:13:50,440 Lalitov says. That's what I think of Shaya, 1658 01:13:50,440 --> 01:13:52,200 but I see him more as a foil to Bloodraven. 1659 01:13:52,200 --> 01:13:54,600 The only person more powerful than him as far as knowing 1660 01:13:54,600 --> 01:13:56,240 what's happening is an immortal tree man. 1661 01:13:56,240 --> 01:13:59,440 And Virus is just a human. Yes, Virus is a great parallel 1662 01:13:59,440 --> 01:14:00,600 to Bloodraven. Here's why. 1663 01:14:01,360 --> 01:14:03,920 On the surface, he says he's doing these things to save 1664 01:14:03,920 --> 01:14:05,200 Westeros, to make a better world. 1665 01:14:05,280 --> 01:14:07,920 That's what Bloodraven is doing. He's doing all this stuff, some 1666 01:14:07,920 --> 01:14:10,600 of which is evil ish, to save the world from the others. 1667 01:14:10,920 --> 01:14:12,920 Which is kind of funny because Virus is trying to save the 1668 01:14:12,920 --> 01:14:14,640 world from something when there's actually a much bigger 1669 01:14:14,640 --> 01:14:18,480 threat that's that Bloodraven is attentive to and Bran is 1670 01:14:18,480 --> 01:14:20,320 attentive to, and other people are being focused on so. 1671 01:14:20,440 --> 01:14:22,320 It is kind of but. It does make for a parallel. 1672 01:14:22,320 --> 01:14:27,040 Well, they're sort of on their own, doing a thing secretly that 1673 01:14:27,040 --> 01:14:29,120 they think will make the world better or that will save the 1674 01:14:29,120 --> 01:14:32,880 world. And it involves doing kind of 1675 01:14:32,880 --> 01:14:36,120 evil things to make that happen. But it might be for good ends. 1676 01:14:36,240 --> 01:14:39,480 They both use disguises. They both are scarred. 1677 01:14:39,480 --> 01:14:42,800 They both are pale. They have, yeah. 1678 01:14:42,800 --> 01:14:46,000 Take many forms, yeah, April, May says in The mystery Night, 1679 01:14:46,000 --> 01:14:49,160 The guy who tries to kill Dunk when Plum comes in wearing the 1680 01:14:49,160 --> 01:14:51,640 glowing moonstone, the guy who Dunk kills is described exactly 1681 01:14:51,640 --> 01:14:53,440 like virus, down to the powder. Yeah, that's. 1682 01:14:53,440 --> 01:14:56,440 I mean, that's Bloodraven. Or Alan Cockshaw is the one that 1683 01:14:56,440 --> 01:14:57,760 tries to kill Dunk. And then? 1684 01:14:58,360 --> 01:15:01,520 Blood Raven shows up and helps him in disguise as Maynard Plum. 1685 01:15:01,720 --> 01:15:04,280 Yeah, I guess it my point to April, May, I would be curious 1686 01:15:04,280 --> 01:15:06,920 to see the exact quotes for you that you feel is described 1687 01:15:06,920 --> 01:15:08,760 exactly the same. As far as I can tell, Alan 1688 01:15:08,760 --> 01:15:12,240 Cockshaw was plump, was pudgy. But I don't know. 1689 01:15:12,240 --> 01:15:15,840 That it was the description was was exactly the same to me. 1690 01:15:15,840 --> 01:15:17,680 I I would have to check that. I don't know if. 1691 01:15:17,680 --> 01:15:19,680 You're worth a look. Yeah, Maybe Bars is a cockshaw 1692 01:15:20,080 --> 01:15:22,480 cockshaw. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 1693 01:15:22,560 --> 01:15:23,880 Yeah. I mean that is true. 1694 01:15:23,880 --> 01:15:26,720 I mean that could be the like, yeah, he could have other no. 1695 01:15:26,720 --> 01:15:30,560 Preparedness odd. But not out of. 1696 01:15:30,560 --> 01:15:31,960 I mean, there's no reason to dismiss that. 1697 01:15:32,200 --> 01:15:34,440 Yeah, no, no, exactly. There's no reason to completely 1698 01:15:34,440 --> 01:15:36,200 dismiss that. So yeah, I would be curious to 1699 01:15:36,200 --> 01:15:37,960 know more details on that. And then April. 1700 01:15:37,960 --> 01:15:41,160 May also says that the scene where his eyes are described as 1701 01:15:41,160 --> 01:15:44,240 dark, wet and shiny is when Tyrion asks him how he was cut. 1702 01:15:44,240 --> 01:15:47,080 Oh, so when he's describing the rituals, his eyes look. 1703 01:15:47,680 --> 01:15:49,720 Like that. What I take from that is that, 1704 01:15:49,720 --> 01:15:51,400 you know, he's turning it on maybe. 1705 01:15:52,240 --> 01:15:54,680 That is very interesting. OK, yeah, maybe we're maybe. 1706 01:15:54,680 --> 01:15:55,760 I'll take a second to look at that. 1707 01:15:55,760 --> 01:15:58,360 And yes, that's that's. A very specific odd description. 1708 01:15:58,360 --> 01:16:01,480 Dark, wet and shiny for eyes. Yeah, we'll take a closer look 1709 01:16:01,480 --> 01:16:04,840 at both of that at the Talk Shop entered a scene as well. 1710 01:16:05,120 --> 01:16:07,080 Thanks for all the yeah, thanks for all the comments. 1711 01:16:07,080 --> 01:16:09,320 Y'all great questions. This is such a great character, 1712 01:16:09,320 --> 01:16:12,640 and as is evidenced by all the thoughts y'all have OK, so this 1713 01:16:12,640 --> 01:16:15,160 is well, this next part I've called Starting for Nothing, 1714 01:16:15,160 --> 01:16:19,480 which is returning to virus's life in mirror, but after the 1715 01:16:19,480 --> 01:16:22,160 ritual. The mummers had sailed by the 1716 01:16:22,160 --> 01:16:25,760 time he was done with me. Once I had served his purpose, 1717 01:16:25,920 --> 01:16:29,360 the man had no further interest in me, so he put me out. 1718 01:16:29,760 --> 01:16:33,880 When I asked him what I should do now, he answered that he 1719 01:16:34,000 --> 01:16:37,000 supposed I should die to spite him. 1720 01:16:37,200 --> 01:16:41,320 I resolved to live. I begged, I stole and I sold 1721 01:16:41,320 --> 01:16:43,760 what parts of my body still remained to me. 1722 01:16:44,120 --> 01:16:46,760 Soon I was as good a thief. As any in. 1723 01:16:46,760 --> 01:16:51,280 Mirror And When I was older, I learned that often the contents 1724 01:16:51,280 --> 01:16:55,200 of a man's letters are more valuable than the contents of 1725 01:16:55,200 --> 01:16:58,080 his purse. So the mummers had sailed by the 1726 01:16:58,080 --> 01:16:59,360 time the sorcerer was done with him. 1727 01:16:59,360 --> 01:17:01,760 Now I have questions about that, because what is the sorcerer 1728 01:17:01,760 --> 01:17:03,240 like? Wait for the moon to be right? 1729 01:17:03,240 --> 01:17:05,320 It sounds like this all happened like right away took him home, 1730 01:17:05,320 --> 01:17:06,760 did the ritual, and then cast him out. 1731 01:17:06,960 --> 01:17:10,400 Like a day or two. Obviously there's I can't be too 1732 01:17:10,400 --> 01:17:12,360 sure of that, but it doesn't sound like it was a long 1733 01:17:12,360 --> 01:17:16,680 process, so it's a little little weird, but why would virus want 1734 01:17:16,680 --> 01:17:18,680 to go back anyway? Like you said, like why would 1735 01:17:18,680 --> 01:17:20,920 you go back to the troop? It sold him to this guy. 1736 01:17:21,440 --> 01:17:22,880 Maybe because he has nowhere else to go. 1737 01:17:22,880 --> 01:17:24,800 He's completely hopeless and helpless. 1738 01:17:24,800 --> 01:17:26,560 He has the only place he ever belonged. 1739 01:17:26,560 --> 01:17:28,400 He has friends. Maybe some of the other people 1740 01:17:28,400 --> 01:17:30,240 would care for him there. He probably developed 1741 01:17:30,240 --> 01:17:32,480 relationships with a bunch of the people there and enjoyed the 1742 01:17:32,480 --> 01:17:35,600 work, even though the one guy in charge is a tyrant or whatever, 1743 01:17:35,600 --> 01:17:37,560 you know? Yeah, so maybe it's just he had 1744 01:17:37,560 --> 01:17:39,360 no other choices. Like it's either that or be 1745 01:17:39,520 --> 01:17:41,680 homeless on the streets, which is apparently what happened. 1746 01:17:41,680 --> 01:17:42,920 So because he didn't have that option. 1747 01:17:42,920 --> 01:17:44,040 Because the mumper troop had sailed. 1748 01:17:44,280 --> 01:17:45,960 So it's fairly believable. That even though I have 1749 01:17:45,960 --> 01:17:48,400 questions. Now here's the thing. 1750 01:17:48,400 --> 01:17:51,640 Here's the question to ask. Does it make the story better, 1751 01:17:51,640 --> 01:17:54,200 Worse, or is it just a matter of opinion? 1752 01:17:54,960 --> 01:17:57,520 If he's a Secret Targaryen or Secret Blackfyre, does that 1753 01:17:57,520 --> 01:17:58,000 make? Is it? 1754 01:17:58,000 --> 01:17:59,520 Is it? Is it too much of that with too 1755 01:17:59,520 --> 01:18:01,600 many characters with secret ancestry? 1756 01:18:01,800 --> 01:18:04,720 Is it more interesting if he's truly? 1757 01:18:04,920 --> 01:18:08,800 A man that came from nearly nothing and is has the ability 1758 01:18:08,800 --> 01:18:10,760 to change the world. Is that maybe more compelling? 1759 01:18:11,120 --> 01:18:14,200 I bring up examples like Star Wars. 1760 01:18:14,200 --> 01:18:16,320 Is it more? Interesting for Rey to be nobody 1761 01:18:16,320 --> 01:18:18,080 or for her to be a. Palpatine, I think there's a lot 1762 01:18:18,080 --> 01:18:19,960 of division on that. Like setting aside the other 1763 01:18:19,960 --> 01:18:23,160 details of that movie, just that one decision about who her 1764 01:18:23,440 --> 01:18:26,480 family is. Like it was cool when Luke was 1765 01:18:26,480 --> 01:18:28,200 the son of. Darth Vader's like, wow, that's 1766 01:18:28,200 --> 01:18:30,560 really neat, you know? But you can overdo. 1767 01:18:30,560 --> 01:18:32,280 That going back to that what same well you? 1768 01:18:32,320 --> 01:18:32,880 Know. Right. 1769 01:18:32,880 --> 01:18:34,680 So I don't know that that's just the case here. 1770 01:18:34,680 --> 01:18:36,320 I wonder if that's just one step too far. 1771 01:18:36,320 --> 01:18:39,560 Like yet another secret. But of course we don't know 1772 01:18:39,560 --> 01:18:41,240 which ones are. There's so many theories of who 1773 01:18:41,240 --> 01:18:42,520 is a secret target who isn't what. 1774 01:18:42,520 --> 01:18:44,480 If they're most of those aren't true, or none of them are true 1775 01:18:44,480 --> 01:18:46,520 and only this one is, you know, then it maybe that wouldn't be 1776 01:18:46,520 --> 01:18:48,760 so many. It would still be another one 1777 01:18:48,760 --> 01:18:52,200 more than John, you know, and and a fake one in terms of 1778 01:18:52,200 --> 01:18:55,000 Aegon, probably. But yeah, maybe that's just an 1779 01:18:55,000 --> 01:18:58,120 overused like plot device of secret history and heritage. 1780 01:18:58,160 --> 01:18:59,600 You know, I just thought of something else. 1781 01:18:59,760 --> 01:19:03,400 A reason why the murmurs might have sold him despite his skill, 1782 01:19:03,400 --> 01:19:05,080 and why they might have left without him. 1783 01:19:05,840 --> 01:19:09,240 Maybe he was stealing from them. Yeah, Palladium is stealing from 1784 01:19:09,240 --> 01:19:11,080 them too, and that was his punishment. 1785 01:19:11,200 --> 01:19:12,960 Virus wouldn't tell. That's Terry that he was trying 1786 01:19:12,960 --> 01:19:15,440 to engender sympathy. Are you telling me that they 1787 01:19:15,440 --> 01:19:17,080 foisted him? They. 1788 01:19:17,160 --> 01:19:19,080 Foisted. They did a foist to see. 1789 01:19:19,320 --> 01:19:19,800 Her. Yeah. 1790 01:19:20,440 --> 01:19:22,920 Sorcerer foisted him. Yeah, so. 1791 01:19:22,920 --> 01:19:24,960 Sorcerer foisted him on Westeros. 1792 01:19:25,640 --> 01:19:28,880 Maybe a small, maybe a small issue, maybe not an issue at 1793 01:19:28,880 --> 01:19:31,960 all, but. Why did virus not bleed out like 1794 01:19:32,040 --> 01:19:34,360 did the the sorcerer not? Maybe it was cauterized. 1795 01:19:34,360 --> 01:19:36,600 Maybe this blade was cauterized. That might make it. 1796 01:19:36,640 --> 01:19:38,800 Easier about that too, but it also doesn't make sense that the 1797 01:19:38,800 --> 01:19:41,400 source was leaving it for dead. Why would you bother tending to 1798 01:19:41,400 --> 01:19:43,360 the wound? How did virus live through this? 1799 01:19:43,360 --> 01:19:43,720 It's. Like. 1800 01:19:43,720 --> 01:19:45,680 Cauterized blade does answer that because it would. 1801 01:19:45,840 --> 01:19:47,360 It would sear the wound as you're doing, and it makes it 1802 01:19:47,360 --> 01:19:50,080 easier to cut. Like you see that in medieval 1803 01:19:50,080 --> 01:19:51,640 sort surgery as you heat the blade up. 1804 01:19:51,640 --> 01:19:53,760 Before. Before you I suppose, yeah, 1805 01:19:53,760 --> 01:19:56,000 before you cut someone's arm off or before you amputate, you do 1806 01:19:56,000 --> 01:19:57,520 heat the blade up to a super hot. 1807 01:19:57,520 --> 01:20:00,080 So I don't have too much of an issue with that, but it's it's 1808 01:20:00,080 --> 01:20:01,280 worth mentioning worth questioning. 1809 01:20:01,320 --> 01:20:04,080 Also, virus didn't mention it if that's what he did. 1810 01:20:04,080 --> 01:20:06,080 He didn't mention it. Super, he tells about the voice 1811 01:20:06,080 --> 01:20:07,640 in a blue flame, but he didn't mention that part. 1812 01:20:07,640 --> 01:20:08,920 He didn't mention the blade being hot. 1813 01:20:08,920 --> 01:20:11,480 You're right, it's not it's not a detail he he he mentioned. 1814 01:20:11,480 --> 01:20:13,680 Totally true. So he says he begged, borrow, 1815 01:20:13,680 --> 01:20:16,600 stole, did sex work that he strongly implies was degrading 1816 01:20:16,600 --> 01:20:18,880 but also worth it because it got him to where he needed to be. 1817 01:20:19,560 --> 01:20:21,080 Since he was a thief. I wouldn't be surprised if he 1818 01:20:21,080 --> 01:20:25,360 stole from his sex work clients, you know, And that's a key here. 1819 01:20:25,360 --> 01:20:28,960 He makes it sound like this, this being cut by the sorcerer, 1820 01:20:28,960 --> 01:20:32,200 which might be made-up. The being cut part probably 1821 01:20:32,200 --> 01:20:33,400 isn't. But again, all these other 1822 01:20:33,400 --> 01:20:37,000 details he says this is like his biggest life motivation. 1823 01:20:37,000 --> 01:20:39,600 The sorcerer telling him I suppose you should die to spite 1824 01:20:39,600 --> 01:20:41,280 him. I chose to live, I, you know, to 1825 01:20:41,280 --> 01:20:43,400 do all these things. He traces it all back to that 1826 01:20:43,400 --> 01:20:46,560 moment pretty big. And this is what he's pushing on 1827 01:20:46,560 --> 01:20:49,160 Tyrion as his reasoning. And it's like man, this will get 1828 01:20:49,160 --> 01:20:51,280 you a lot of sympathy. Tyrion understands. 1829 01:20:51,280 --> 01:20:52,760 Tyrion understands being a cast out. 1830 01:20:52,760 --> 01:20:54,640 Tyrion understands being not accepted by his family. 1831 01:20:54,640 --> 01:20:57,960 Tyrion under Tyrion thinks of himself as a bastard. 1832 01:20:58,120 --> 01:21:00,400 All dwarves are bastard in their father's eyes, right? 1833 01:21:00,400 --> 01:21:04,360 So this is this is like, yeah, how can I win Tyrion over 1834 01:21:04,360 --> 01:21:05,480 without being too obvious? Yeah. 1835 01:21:05,480 --> 01:21:08,280 And I think, yeah, you're right. He knows his audience and Tyrion 1836 01:21:08,280 --> 01:21:11,040 is someone who would be motivated by spite, by being 1837 01:21:11,040 --> 01:21:14,160 like, I'm going to be the best, the best hand that I could ever 1838 01:21:14,160 --> 01:21:15,920 be to spite them all. I'll show them. 1839 01:21:16,120 --> 01:21:17,640 Showtime when you show Cersei, yeah. 1840 01:21:18,200 --> 01:21:20,400 They would have that common ground between them. 1841 01:21:20,560 --> 01:21:22,160 Yeah. I kind of think, I think it's 1842 01:21:22,160 --> 01:21:24,360 not wrong. That virus might have someone he 1843 01:21:24,360 --> 01:21:26,280 wants to spite. It might not. 1844 01:21:26,280 --> 01:21:29,840 I don't think it's this scenario exactly, but someone somewhere 1845 01:21:29,840 --> 01:21:33,600 might have told him you might as well die and he is actually has 1846 01:21:33,640 --> 01:21:35,200 a. There might be a kernel of truth 1847 01:21:35,240 --> 01:21:36,360 here. Yeah, there might be, there 1848 01:21:36,360 --> 01:21:38,280 absolutely might be a key eternal, a kernel of truth here. 1849 01:21:38,760 --> 01:21:41,320 And yeah, like someone being told, like being told you're 1850 01:21:41,320 --> 01:21:44,040 utterly worthless, that you have no purpose in life, could make, 1851 01:21:44,120 --> 01:21:46,840 you know, give you a put chip on your shoulder and be like, oh. 1852 01:21:46,840 --> 01:21:48,080 I'll show you. I'll show you what I can 1853 01:21:48,080 --> 01:21:50,320 accomplish, you know, like that's that's like sort of. 1854 01:21:51,320 --> 01:21:53,800 Negative motivation, but it certainly worked on viruses. 1855 01:21:53,800 --> 01:21:55,960 You certainly like, accomplished an awful lot. 1856 01:21:56,440 --> 01:21:59,360 And the way he indicates it to Tyrion and Ned and Kevin is he's 1857 01:21:59,360 --> 01:22:00,920 for the realm. He says to these all three of 1858 01:22:00,920 --> 01:22:03,000 these people in different scenarios, very different 1859 01:22:03,240 --> 01:22:05,880 circumstances that are happening when he says this. 1860 01:22:06,080 --> 01:22:07,280 But he's like, yeah, I'm for the realm. 1861 01:22:07,280 --> 01:22:09,320 I want to make peace. I want to make the realm good. 1862 01:22:10,120 --> 01:22:12,720 Maybe it's even true. Like this is something that we 1863 01:22:12,720 --> 01:22:14,840 have to ask. Like he comes from a horrible 1864 01:22:14,840 --> 01:22:16,200 place. Maybe he wants to help create a 1865 01:22:16,200 --> 01:22:18,560 world where that doesn't happen to people where this like 1866 01:22:18,560 --> 01:22:20,040 people, children aren't treated that. 1867 01:22:20,040 --> 01:22:22,320 Way. That's treat children terribly 1868 01:22:22,320 --> 01:22:23,400 to make. This work that. 1869 01:22:23,840 --> 01:22:25,480 Might really be the case. I think it's not. 1870 01:22:25,480 --> 01:22:26,440 You're not wrong. There. 1871 01:22:26,440 --> 01:22:28,480 He's like, well, me. Let me do this to 100 or 200 1872 01:22:28,480 --> 01:22:30,480 more kids and then it'll never happen to any children again. 1873 01:22:30,480 --> 01:22:33,200 I mean, that's pretty naive but unquestionable. 1874 01:22:33,200 --> 01:22:35,000 But that might That doesn't mean it's not his motivation. 1875 01:22:35,000 --> 01:22:37,280 It's not unrealistic for someone to think that way. 1876 01:22:37,320 --> 01:22:39,800 Now here's an interesting point about him having been a sex 1877 01:22:39,800 --> 01:22:42,040 worker. Shay sees through viruses 1878 01:22:42,040 --> 01:22:44,360 disguise. He comes up in like a mega 1879 01:22:44,360 --> 01:22:46,400 disguise. And Shay's like, oh, there's 1880 01:22:46,400 --> 01:22:48,000 virus and shit, Tyrion's like what? 1881 01:22:48,440 --> 01:22:50,440 That's virus and viruses. Even virus is annoyed. 1882 01:22:50,440 --> 01:22:52,920 He's like, damn it, how did you know? 1883 01:22:53,280 --> 01:22:54,600 And she's like, I'm a sex. Worker. 1884 01:22:54,600 --> 01:22:56,120 You know, if I don't, If I don't. 1885 01:22:56,120 --> 01:22:58,640 See through the disguise, I'm gonna end up dead. 1886 01:22:59,080 --> 01:23:00,560 So I went. So Virus must have had a few of 1887 01:23:00,560 --> 01:23:03,600 those skills. But not in the same way, because 1888 01:23:03,600 --> 01:23:07,800 Virus isn't a young, pretty girl who's in bigger risk, you know, 1889 01:23:08,120 --> 01:23:10,560 Probably. Almost certainly so, I don't 1890 01:23:10,840 --> 01:23:12,080 think being. Pretty. 1891 01:23:12,080 --> 01:23:13,760 Applied to virus. Although maybe, I don't know 1892 01:23:13,760 --> 01:23:14,800 what he looked like when he was a kid. 1893 01:23:14,800 --> 01:23:16,160 Maybe he was pretty. So I. 1894 01:23:16,160 --> 01:23:19,000 Guess he was pretty. It's possible. 1895 01:23:19,280 --> 01:23:22,240 I think so. So if you take a more rosy view, 1896 01:23:22,240 --> 01:23:24,080 it's things like this. He's trying to end the treatment 1897 01:23:24,080 --> 01:23:26,720 of people like this. And if you take a more grim, 1898 01:23:26,720 --> 01:23:30,800 cynical view, it's He's willing to do really awful things just 1899 01:23:30,800 --> 01:23:32,840 for his ambition, whatever that is, 'cause we don't know what 1900 01:23:32,840 --> 01:23:35,400 his ambition is. And if he's noble, if that 1901 01:23:35,400 --> 01:23:38,240 theory is accurate, if he has noble ancestry, he feels for 1902 01:23:38,240 --> 01:23:42,080 other noble children that were left behind, that were forced 1903 01:23:42,080 --> 01:23:44,480 into an awful situation because of what happened to their 1904 01:23:44,480 --> 01:23:48,000 parents. If Malice the Monstrous died and 1905 01:23:48,000 --> 01:23:50,880 the Blackfire cause was ended, the Tirashi people who supported 1906 01:23:50,880 --> 01:23:54,360 them would just quite possibly sell the rest of them into 1907 01:23:54,360 --> 01:23:55,800 slavery like, oh, you guys are. Done. 1908 01:23:56,200 --> 01:23:58,360 What am I going to do with these young black fires? 1909 01:23:58,360 --> 01:23:59,800 They're worthless. I'll just sell them into 1910 01:23:59,800 --> 01:24:01,000 slavery. We got to get rid of them. 1911 01:24:01,080 --> 01:24:03,080 We can't be seen associated with these people anymore. 1912 01:24:03,080 --> 01:24:05,880 They're a, they're a they're a toxic 'cause now we can't be 1913 01:24:05,880 --> 01:24:09,200 associated with this loss. We have to divest ourselves from 1914 01:24:09,200 --> 01:24:11,520 this. That would fit, You know, like 1915 01:24:11,520 --> 01:24:14,720 you're you're part of a, you're a young person, part of a family 1916 01:24:14,720 --> 01:24:17,880 that has its fall. You end up in a bad situation. 1917 01:24:17,880 --> 01:24:20,040 You end up, you know, one step ahead of. 1918 01:24:20,040 --> 01:24:22,360 Slavery. Like Danny, Like Viserra. 1919 01:24:22,360 --> 01:24:24,000 That's exactly. What happened to them? 1920 01:24:24,440 --> 01:24:26,360 Right. Their family lost the Civil War 1921 01:24:26,840 --> 01:24:29,120 and they're on the run. Thought usurpers hired knives. 1922 01:24:29,120 --> 01:24:31,360 Bit was exaggerated, but they were definitely haunted and 1923 01:24:31,720 --> 01:24:33,760 definitely people after them. They definitely were at risk, 1924 01:24:34,760 --> 01:24:38,000 like Virus and Illyrio. Are part of the risk taking them 1925 01:24:38,000 --> 01:24:39,560 in and using them for their schemes, right. 1926 01:24:40,680 --> 01:24:43,560 So yeah, exactly. It's it's, it's unlikely. 1927 01:24:44,120 --> 01:24:46,600 A lot of these things are individually unlikely, but 1928 01:24:46,600 --> 01:24:49,040 somewhere in here is probably the truth, You know? 1929 01:24:49,680 --> 01:24:52,200 It's just hard to so many different permutations and 1930 01:24:52,200 --> 01:24:55,080 possibilities now, all those different ways he he got himself 1931 01:24:55,080 --> 01:24:58,080 out of the gutter earning money. The criminal stuff was the most 1932 01:24:58,080 --> 01:24:59,600 lucrative, the stuff that he could keep doing. 1933 01:24:59,600 --> 01:25:02,040 He's like, yeah, I'm going to keep doing sex work that's going 1934 01:25:02,040 --> 01:25:03,960 to make me rich. Yeah, obviously that's not his 1935 01:25:03,960 --> 01:25:07,440 path to great wealth and power, but criminal stuff? 1936 01:25:07,440 --> 01:25:08,720 Absolutely. He had a lot of talent. 1937 01:25:08,720 --> 01:25:11,320 In that area. And he'd already acquired some 1938 01:25:11,320 --> 01:25:12,680 skills that were useful through mummery. 1939 01:25:12,680 --> 01:25:14,880 That's that's really good. Think of how he is now. 1940 01:25:15,000 --> 01:25:17,840 Very diplomatic. Very good at speaking to people. 1941 01:25:17,840 --> 01:25:20,720 Very good at like putting their fears to rest and not saying 1942 01:25:20,720 --> 01:25:22,080 things that will inflamed their anger. 1943 01:25:22,080 --> 01:25:24,760 Good at de escalating, you know, things like that. 1944 01:25:24,760 --> 01:25:26,960 Just really good at that. Good at speaking, good at 1945 01:25:26,960 --> 01:25:29,680 talking, right. Charismatic in his own way. 1946 01:25:29,680 --> 01:25:31,400 Even though he turns people off, even though like, people are 1947 01:25:31,400 --> 01:25:33,240 afraid of him, he still manages to get through. 1948 01:25:33,240 --> 01:25:35,600 To them when they're like virus, but you know. 1949 01:25:36,640 --> 01:25:38,480 He's insightful. He's quick, he's. 1950 01:25:38,480 --> 01:25:42,240 Very good at reading people. I imagine he was that when he 1951 01:25:42,240 --> 01:25:44,920 young, just less refined. He had those same skills, but he 1952 01:25:44,920 --> 01:25:46,880 just wasn't. As hadn't have 20 years of 1953 01:25:46,880 --> 01:25:50,280 practice at it, didn't have 20 years at court honing those 1954 01:25:50,280 --> 01:25:52,080 skills. But maybe he was bolder. 1955 01:25:52,080 --> 01:25:54,000 He had to take more risks. When he was younger, you know he 1956 01:25:54,000 --> 01:25:56,520 needed to take more chances because he had less to work 1957 01:25:56,520 --> 01:25:58,200 with. He didn't have the crown's gold 1958 01:25:58,600 --> 01:26:00,800 to hire spies with. He had to use his own gold for 1959 01:26:00,800 --> 01:26:02,920 that, that he got through. Criminal stuff. 1960 01:26:03,480 --> 01:26:05,320 And in his rise. What do you think about this, 1961 01:26:05,320 --> 01:26:06,440 Sean? We brought it up early before. 1962 01:26:06,440 --> 01:26:07,760 And Shea, I want to hear your take on this too. 1963 01:26:08,120 --> 01:26:09,520 Did he get revenge on that sorcerer? 1964 01:26:09,520 --> 01:26:11,560 If the sorcerer is a real person or the person that cut him, do 1965 01:26:11,560 --> 01:26:13,560 you think he did? I I would guess he probably 1966 01:26:13,560 --> 01:26:17,040 would have tried to find that guy if it if possible. 1967 01:26:17,280 --> 01:26:18,520 And. Maybe the dude was dead by the 1968 01:26:18,520 --> 01:26:21,360 time he came of age to be able to do that, but if he could 1969 01:26:21,360 --> 01:26:25,400 track that guy down, his ability to to get secrets and to find 1970 01:26:25,400 --> 01:26:28,640 people and there's few better. So if he wanted to go after that 1971 01:26:28,640 --> 01:26:30,840 guy, I bet he did. What do y'all think? 1972 01:26:31,080 --> 01:26:34,000 It it seems like he's got the wherewithal to do it right. 1973 01:26:34,000 --> 01:26:37,200 If he decided to, and I imagine he would have, even if it was 1974 01:26:37,200 --> 01:26:42,560 just like a curiosity, even if maybe some like burning revenge 1975 01:26:42,560 --> 01:26:47,280 anger in his youth might have quelled over the years, I still 1976 01:26:47,280 --> 01:26:52,520 think he would be curious. Although that makes it even more 1977 01:26:52,680 --> 01:26:55,240 hard to believe the story you told Tyrion, because if he did, 1978 01:26:55,240 --> 01:26:57,680 it seems like he would know more about it, or learn more about 1979 01:26:57,680 --> 01:26:59,040 it, or have a different take on it. 1980 01:26:59,120 --> 01:27:02,480 So it it may also be that he was curious and tried to find him 1981 01:27:02,480 --> 01:27:05,920 and found out he was already dead or he was unfindable. 1982 01:27:05,920 --> 01:27:08,960 It's what I leaned towards. I think just by the time he was 1983 01:27:08,960 --> 01:27:12,600 able to try to get his revenge and had the wherewithal to do 1984 01:27:12,600 --> 01:27:15,560 that sorcerer was dead and gone. It's entirely possible. 1985 01:27:15,560 --> 01:27:17,280 We're talking maybe 20 years later, yeah. 1986 01:27:17,320 --> 01:27:20,640 I don't know that's that's fine. Cuts it, makes I I. 1987 01:27:21,080 --> 01:27:23,040 Like. It as well because I like Varys 1988 01:27:23,040 --> 01:27:26,880 maybe not getting that like satisfaction or never seeing 1989 01:27:26,880 --> 01:27:29,480 Well, I mean again like I I say sorcerer, but I really just mean 1990 01:27:29,480 --> 01:27:32,800 man person who castrated. Him but I. 1991 01:27:32,960 --> 01:27:36,640 Think. There's some I I like the idea. 1992 01:27:36,640 --> 01:27:39,960 I mean, I don't like it, but I I find it meaningful that Varys 1993 01:27:40,120 --> 01:27:44,080 just never actually gets to get revenge on the person he wants 1994 01:27:44,080 --> 01:27:47,280 to get revenge on. Instead, he puts all of that 1995 01:27:47,280 --> 01:27:51,600 energy and passion into changing the realm, Etcetera. 1996 01:27:51,600 --> 01:27:53,360 That could be it. That might be why he's so 1997 01:27:53,360 --> 01:27:55,120 intent. He's never able to resolve this, 1998 01:27:55,320 --> 01:27:57,880 this, this. I guess if we're comparing it to 1999 01:27:57,880 --> 01:28:01,800 Varys and Arya again, it's interesting the idea of like the 2000 01:28:01,800 --> 01:28:05,440 unresolved revenge and and like it never finding his real 2001 01:28:05,440 --> 01:28:07,160 outlet. Whereas Arya has actually 2002 01:28:07,160 --> 01:28:10,480 managed to turn it around on people she wants to get revenge 2003 01:28:10,480 --> 01:28:12,200 on and has her list and everything. 2004 01:28:12,240 --> 01:28:15,080 You know what I mean? Kind of the inverse of each 2005 01:28:15,080 --> 01:28:16,960 other in that way. Yeah, that was my thought that 2006 01:28:16,960 --> 01:28:21,400 maybe various failed at finding him or did find him or he's 2007 01:28:21,400 --> 01:28:25,240 already dead or what it was. But this sort of like drive, 2008 01:28:25,240 --> 01:28:27,720 he's like, well now what do I do? 2009 01:28:27,880 --> 01:28:30,920 And you know, maybe compare that to the, what do you call it, 2010 01:28:30,920 --> 01:28:33,960 Indigo Montoya. And they killed the six finger 2011 01:28:33,960 --> 01:28:35,680 man like. Well, all right, now what I do. 2012 01:28:35,920 --> 01:28:38,280 Yeah, Revenge, yeah. What do you do after revenge? 2013 01:28:38,360 --> 01:28:39,880 Yeah. I wanted to point out another 2014 01:28:40,400 --> 01:28:44,400 factor with various 2 that he doesn't seem particularly 2015 01:28:44,400 --> 01:28:46,800 motivated by money, at least at this point. 2016 01:28:46,920 --> 01:28:49,680 It's a little easier not to be motivated by money when you have 2017 01:28:49,680 --> 01:28:51,280 it. And that's true, his quarters 2018 01:28:51,280 --> 01:28:55,280 seem very meager and maybe they maybe he really doesn't even 2019 01:28:55,760 --> 01:28:57,880 care about, like, you know, finer things. 2020 01:28:58,120 --> 01:29:01,560 But one reason and people want money as security and he has 2021 01:29:01,720 --> 01:29:05,080 security and so and money helps a lot with that soon. 2022 01:29:05,120 --> 01:29:07,800 You're right about that. Let's move on to the third Free 2023 01:29:07,800 --> 01:29:09,080 City. We've done lease. 2024 01:29:09,080 --> 01:29:10,640 We've done mere. Now Pentas. 2025 01:29:10,640 --> 01:29:17,160 Let's look at this discussion where Illyrio tells these 2026 01:29:17,160 --> 01:29:20,720 details to Tyrion. How is it that the spider became 2027 01:29:20,720 --> 01:29:23,560 so dear to you? We were young together, 2 green 2028 01:29:23,560 --> 01:29:26,440 boys and Pentos. Varys came from here. 2029 01:29:26,560 --> 01:29:29,360 So he did. I met him not long after he 2030 01:29:29,360 --> 01:29:31,840 arrived, one step ahead of the slavers. 2031 01:29:32,160 --> 01:29:37,280 By day he slept in the sewers. By night he prowled the rooftops 2032 01:29:37,280 --> 01:29:41,080 like a cat. I was near as poor, a bravo in 2033 01:29:41,080 --> 01:29:43,360 soiled silks, living by my blade. 2034 01:29:43,800 --> 01:29:47,000 Perhaps you chance to glimpse the statue by my pool. 2035 01:29:47,480 --> 01:29:50,840 Pytho Malanon carved that when I was 6 and 10. 2036 01:29:50,960 --> 01:29:54,240 A lovely thing though now I. Weep to see it. 2037 01:29:54,560 --> 01:29:58,080 So you might think that a poor 16 year old having a statue 2038 01:29:58,080 --> 01:29:59,880 carved after him is weird, but it's not. 2039 01:29:59,880 --> 01:30:03,720 It's not actually. There's there's a lot of real 2040 01:30:03,720 --> 01:30:07,920 world examples of just young people being selected for 2041 01:30:07,920 --> 01:30:08,680 statue. Can I? 2042 01:30:08,680 --> 01:30:14,760 Can I say my impression of this, which is Illyrio slept around 2043 01:30:14,760 --> 01:30:16,680 too. That's what I take from this. 2044 01:30:16,720 --> 01:30:19,960 Young teenager. Yeah, I I think that's that's 2045 01:30:19,960 --> 01:30:22,880 what that's what I take from this that he was sought after 2046 01:30:22,880 --> 01:30:27,320 and I'd be would manage to find some success this way. 2047 01:30:27,320 --> 01:30:28,960 I don't know. That's entirely possible. 2048 01:30:28,960 --> 01:30:30,920 Yeah. And he yeah, I mean it's think 2049 01:30:30,920 --> 01:30:33,520 of model searches in rural areas. 2050 01:30:33,520 --> 01:30:36,840 I mean that's it's not strange at all like you young attractive 2051 01:30:36,840 --> 01:30:39,680 person goes to moves to Hollywood to make get their fame 2052 01:30:39,680 --> 01:30:41,160 or whatever. You know, like it's something 2053 01:30:41,160 --> 01:30:42,760 that it's similar to that, you know? 2054 01:30:43,240 --> 01:30:45,440 That's what I picture it. It really is. 2055 01:30:45,440 --> 01:30:47,440 I don't know if that's just me. If I'm the only person. 2056 01:30:47,440 --> 01:30:50,040 I I I can't imagine I'm alone. That I just kind of filled in 2057 01:30:50,040 --> 01:30:52,880 the blanks, red between the lines and was like, I don't 2058 01:30:52,880 --> 01:30:55,160 know, I think. I think Illyria and Varies both 2059 01:30:55,160 --> 01:30:58,280 use some amount of sex work to get ahead in life. 2060 01:30:58,680 --> 01:31:00,680 Quite possibly. Ancient Greece has plenty of 2061 01:31:00,680 --> 01:31:03,760 stories about young people as statue models. 2062 01:31:03,760 --> 01:31:06,960 You know, Leonardo's David may have been one of those cases. 2063 01:31:06,960 --> 01:31:09,400 If I remember correctly, I could be crossing up my statue 2064 01:31:09,480 --> 01:31:12,600 history, and I remember telling the story in the past episode 2065 01:31:12,600 --> 01:31:15,440 where there was that really that statue of that famous courtesan 2066 01:31:15,960 --> 01:31:18,640 in, I think Thebes, maybe. It was definitely somewhere in 2067 01:31:18,640 --> 01:31:23,640 Greece where the statue was so attractive that they had to put 2068 01:31:23,640 --> 01:31:26,400 guards on it 'cause people would try to have sex with it. 2069 01:31:26,400 --> 01:31:28,920 Some of y'all may remember that story from a previous episode, 2070 01:31:28,920 --> 01:31:31,320 but yeah, so. This Illyro stuff isn't strange 2071 01:31:31,320 --> 01:31:33,120 at all. With that in mind, I mean people 2072 01:31:33,120 --> 01:31:36,760 trying to bang statues. Yeah, like, so by day, Vara 2073 01:31:36,760 --> 01:31:38,440 slept in the sewers. According to the story, that 2074 01:31:38,440 --> 01:31:41,600 sounds terrible. By night, he prowled the roof up 2075 01:31:41,600 --> 01:31:43,280 like a cat, which is kind of odd. 2076 01:31:43,280 --> 01:31:46,480 What's he doing up there? Sneaking in windows like that? 2077 01:31:47,320 --> 01:31:48,960 It's loud. Walking on roofs, like you're 2078 01:31:49,440 --> 01:31:51,520 you'll hear that, right? So you got to be really careful. 2079 01:31:51,520 --> 01:31:53,800 So sneaking in windows. Is he going in chimneys? 2080 01:31:53,800 --> 01:31:56,360 Is he Santavaris? I don't, I don't quite get that. 2081 01:31:56,360 --> 01:31:57,680 But he's. Cleaning his paws. 2082 01:31:57,680 --> 01:32:01,640 He's I was like a cat. Picture him with whiskers. 2083 01:32:01,640 --> 01:32:03,200 Does it work? You know, like virus, he 2084 01:32:03,200 --> 01:32:04,680 doesn't. He shaves all his hair but not 2085 01:32:04,680 --> 01:32:07,320 his whiskers. So more seriously though that I 2086 01:32:07,320 --> 01:32:09,120 assume this is like a vibe of a cat burglar. 2087 01:32:09,120 --> 01:32:12,200 That's a modern, semi modern term which is just a description 2088 01:32:12,200 --> 01:32:14,720 of someone who's capable of robbing a place without leaving 2089 01:32:14,720 --> 01:32:17,800 any trace that they'd ever been there, which is absolutely virus 2090 01:32:17,800 --> 01:32:19,720 and especially his little birds. Little mice. 2091 01:32:20,200 --> 01:32:23,240 But also, of course, makes you think of the connection of cats, 2092 01:32:23,240 --> 01:32:26,360 birds, mice and we're brought back to the Aria parallel. 2093 01:32:26,360 --> 01:32:28,640 Different quiet animals. Yes, cat. 2094 01:32:29,000 --> 01:32:30,200 Cat of the canals? Yep. 2095 01:32:30,240 --> 01:32:31,800 Again, are you're totally right to Shay. 2096 01:32:31,800 --> 01:32:33,920 That is one of the Aria parallels and. 2097 01:32:33,920 --> 01:32:35,520 Yeah. So he called them Little Mice 2098 01:32:35,520 --> 01:32:38,040 and Pentas and started calling them Little Birds later, which 2099 01:32:38,040 --> 01:32:41,120 is I don't know what to make of the name change there. 2100 01:32:41,120 --> 01:32:42,680 It's is it? Is it meant to? 2101 01:32:42,680 --> 01:32:46,640 Is is it meant to be like a little hint that this story has 2102 01:32:46,640 --> 01:32:50,680 changed over time, That that maybe Illyrio got a detail 2103 01:32:50,680 --> 01:32:53,000 remembered it slightly wrong? I. 2104 01:32:53,000 --> 01:32:54,080 Don't know, maybe I'm reading too much. 2105 01:32:54,080 --> 01:32:55,920 Connotation between mice and birds. 2106 01:32:55,920 --> 01:32:59,640 Like I wonder like one the mice that like like he might have 2107 01:32:59,640 --> 01:33:03,120 done more thievery and more like that the their purpose might 2108 01:33:03,120 --> 01:33:05,520 have been different. Do you know what I mean? 2109 01:33:05,520 --> 01:33:08,680 Like the like, they're more about telling tales and secrets. 2110 01:33:08,680 --> 01:33:11,400 He's not really stealing around doing stuff like that, he's he's 2111 01:33:11,400 --> 01:33:14,400 just getting, he's purely just dealing in information at this 2112 01:33:14,400 --> 01:33:19,720 point and so he rebranded to reflect the information sector. 2113 01:33:20,320 --> 01:33:23,560 It would sound nicer to the nobles too, that Varius has this 2114 01:33:23,800 --> 01:33:27,520 army of little mice. It's like, yeah, how sweet. 2115 01:33:27,760 --> 01:33:29,360 And. Because they already use Ravens. 2116 01:33:29,360 --> 01:33:31,800 Yeah, OK. Yeah, that might, you're right, 2117 01:33:31,800 --> 01:33:34,640 that might be preferred. Vermin mice or Vermin's birds 2118 01:33:34,640 --> 01:33:38,360 aren't, you know, Illyrio says in this quote that virus arrived 2119 01:33:38,360 --> 01:33:41,120 in Pentos from mirror quote one step ahead of the slavers. 2120 01:33:41,120 --> 01:33:44,760 So keep that in mind for the next part of this quote. 2121 01:33:45,120 --> 01:33:48,880 In mirror he was a Prince of thieves until a rival thief 2122 01:33:48,880 --> 01:33:53,240 informed on him in Pentos. His accent marked him, and once 2123 01:33:53,240 --> 01:33:57,080 he was known for a eunuch he was despised and beaten. 2124 01:33:57,520 --> 01:34:02,680 Why he chose me to protect him, I may never know, but we came to 2125 01:34:02,680 --> 01:34:06,000 an arrangement. Varie spied on lesser thieves 2126 01:34:06,000 --> 01:34:08,960 and took their takings. I offered my help to their 2127 01:34:08,960 --> 01:34:12,560 victims, promising to recover their valuables for a fee. 2128 01:34:12,840 --> 01:34:16,920 Soon every man who had suffered a loss knew to come to me, 2129 01:34:17,240 --> 01:34:22,120 whilst City's foot pads and cut purses sought out Varys half to 2130 01:34:22,120 --> 01:34:25,960 slit his throat, the other half to sell him what they'd stolen. 2131 01:34:26,320 --> 01:34:30,480 We both grew rich and richer still when Varys trained his 2132 01:34:30,480 --> 01:34:33,000 mice. So in mirror he was a Prince of 2133 01:34:33,000 --> 01:34:35,760 thieves, according to Illyrio. But he just told Tyrion there 2134 01:34:35,760 --> 01:34:37,840 were two green boys living in Pentos. 2135 01:34:37,920 --> 01:34:41,600 That is a little hard to square. Maybe Illyrio was green and 2136 01:34:41,600 --> 01:34:43,880 Varys was not, which is why I guessed. 2137 01:34:44,360 --> 01:34:46,480 Virus is older than Illyria. When I at the beginning of the 2138 01:34:46,480 --> 01:34:47,800 episode. This is the core of that 2139 01:34:47,800 --> 01:34:49,760 argument. It's like maybe Illyria was 2140 01:34:49,760 --> 01:34:52,280 green but Virus is like. He's got all this skill. 2141 01:34:52,280 --> 01:34:54,040 A Prince of How are you, a? Prince of thieves and a green 2142 01:34:54,040 --> 01:34:55,600 boy that that does not work. I could. 2143 01:34:55,800 --> 01:34:57,520 I could square that. I think, OK, go ahead. 2144 01:34:57,520 --> 01:35:00,520 Although on a certain shot, definitely suspicious, but one I 2145 01:35:00,520 --> 01:35:03,680 think he might call himself a Prince of thieves, and that's an 2146 01:35:03,680 --> 01:35:06,800 embellishment. It was just him and seven or 2147 01:35:06,800 --> 01:35:08,440 eight kids from his neighborhood, and he was the 2148 01:35:08,440 --> 01:35:11,560 best among that group. But among the entire population 2149 01:35:11,560 --> 01:35:14,000 he maybe was hardly known, but he would still be happy to call 2150 01:35:14,000 --> 01:35:16,000 himself Prince of. Thieves and I mean I think this 2151 01:35:16,000 --> 01:35:18,520 is and this is Elyrios. Perspective on varies. 2152 01:35:18,520 --> 01:35:21,800 I think Elyria had starry eyes for him, cared about him and 2153 01:35:21,800 --> 01:35:24,640 thought he was just so cool and so capable and all these things 2154 01:35:24,920 --> 01:35:26,320 to him. He was a Prince of thieves. 2155 01:35:26,320 --> 01:35:30,000 He came to him capable, successful, he. 2156 01:35:30,680 --> 01:35:32,360 He credits bars a lot of his success. 2157 01:35:32,360 --> 01:35:36,000 Now, but Tavares looking back, we were both green boys, 2158 01:35:36,000 --> 01:35:38,880 ultimately in relatives. They learned so much after that 2159 01:35:38,920 --> 01:35:40,240 point. OK, yeah, I don't think. 2160 01:35:40,360 --> 01:35:41,880 Yeah, he might have put a little spin on it. 2161 01:35:41,880 --> 01:35:43,240 He might have still been putting a little spin. 2162 01:35:43,360 --> 01:35:47,160 He could also be relatively green in a new town, right? 2163 01:35:47,160 --> 01:35:51,200 Even if before he was a true Prince of thieves, when you go 2164 01:35:51,200 --> 01:35:53,800 to a new city and you lose your contacts, you don't know the 2165 01:35:53,800 --> 01:35:56,680 roads or the sewers or the safe spots and the rooftops or 2166 01:35:56,680 --> 01:35:59,120 whatever it is. So you kind of have to reset and 2167 01:35:59,120 --> 01:36:00,440 that makes you green. Relative. 2168 01:36:00,440 --> 01:36:01,760 Yeah. OK, that's a very good point. 2169 01:36:01,760 --> 01:36:04,400 He's Green And Pentas. I'm also kind of curious about 2170 01:36:04,400 --> 01:36:09,760 like are Unix not looked upon as negatively and mirror as Pentas? 2171 01:36:09,760 --> 01:36:10,280 Was it? No. 2172 01:36:10,280 --> 01:36:13,560 Like it says, once he was known for a eunuch, he was despised 2173 01:36:13,560 --> 01:36:15,640 and beaten. I wonder if he faced that same 2174 01:36:15,640 --> 01:36:19,600 kind of he probably and mirror, or if they were just. 2175 01:36:19,600 --> 01:36:22,240 I don't know. I could see Pentas having a 2176 01:36:22,240 --> 01:36:26,400 certain culture where they are maybe more antagonistic to 2177 01:36:26,400 --> 01:36:28,600 certain types of people. I don't know the cultural 2178 01:36:28,600 --> 01:36:30,840 differences between them. I do imagine there are some 2179 01:36:30,840 --> 01:36:34,520 differences between Pentas Lease and mere culturally. 2180 01:36:34,560 --> 01:36:36,480 It seems like pretty much. Everywhere they look down on 2181 01:36:36,480 --> 01:36:39,320 Unix, but maybe less in some places than others. 2182 01:36:39,320 --> 01:36:41,120 So I could see that like, yeah, I could see it being a big 2183 01:36:41,120 --> 01:36:43,280 problem in penthouse where it's only a small problem in mirror 2184 01:36:43,280 --> 01:36:44,680 or whatever. It might have just never come 2185 01:36:44,680 --> 01:36:46,160 out in mirror. No one ever knew. 2186 01:36:46,160 --> 01:36:47,880 Like look at how. Pycelle is. 2187 01:36:47,880 --> 01:36:50,680 He's like a eunuch, You know, like so. 2188 01:36:50,680 --> 01:36:54,080 Red flag on this one too, though his accent marked him. 2189 01:36:54,240 --> 01:36:57,560 This is one of the biggest holes in the story that I that I've 2190 01:36:57,560 --> 01:36:59,440 seen. Maybe the biggest. 2191 01:36:59,560 --> 01:37:02,080 This is a guy. Who's an expert at Mommory? 2192 01:37:02,080 --> 01:37:04,640 We've seen Virus change his voice through different accents. 2193 01:37:04,640 --> 01:37:06,360 Like, how the heck? Did his accent mark him? 2194 01:37:06,880 --> 01:37:09,600 If he's already got his mummer's troop experience, like maybe he 2195 01:37:09,600 --> 01:37:12,120 didn't care to hide it. Maybe he didn't think it 2196 01:37:12,120 --> 01:37:15,400 mattered, so maybe that's it. He was, like we said, maybe he 2197 01:37:15,400 --> 01:37:16,480 was a little more arrogant as a youth. 2198 01:37:16,480 --> 01:37:18,240 Maybe that's what got him in trouble, talking about his 2199 01:37:18,240 --> 01:37:22,000 ancestors, Something like that. And I have my my question here 2200 01:37:22,280 --> 01:37:25,520 which is. Again, how much is this colored 2201 01:37:25,520 --> 01:37:26,880 by Illyrio's? Tail. 2202 01:37:26,880 --> 01:37:30,400 He's the way he puts this. Why he chose me to protect him. 2203 01:37:30,400 --> 01:37:32,520 I mean, like, did Varri see that? 2204 01:37:32,520 --> 01:37:36,240 The way to, like, cut through to Illyrio and make him yours, as 2205 01:37:36,240 --> 01:37:38,120 it were, was he wanted to be a protector. 2206 01:37:38,120 --> 01:37:42,680 He wanted to did Varri's pretend to be weaker than he was in 2207 01:37:42,680 --> 01:37:45,640 order to ensnare to hook Illyrio, to be his business 2208 01:37:45,640 --> 01:37:47,960 partner, You know what I mean? It makes sense. 2209 01:37:47,960 --> 01:37:49,280 He would need protection. They say half. 2210 01:37:49,320 --> 01:37:52,040 Like if you're stealing from other thieves, yeah, you need 2211 01:37:52,480 --> 01:37:54,920 some help. He wants, he wants reliable 2212 01:37:54,920 --> 01:37:56,800 protection. He wants protection from someone 2213 01:37:56,800 --> 01:37:58,280 that he can trust. I don't know. 2214 01:37:58,280 --> 01:38:01,240 I could see that he might have wanted Illyrio to perceive him a 2215 01:38:01,240 --> 01:38:04,560 certain way in order to. He might have wanted people in 2216 01:38:04,560 --> 01:38:07,640 general perceive him a certain way, because if he marks himself 2217 01:38:07,640 --> 01:38:10,800 with an accent, then when he changes an accent and his 2218 01:38:10,800 --> 01:38:13,480 disguise, he won't be that same. It makes it easier to disguise 2219 01:38:13,480 --> 01:38:14,760 himself. When he makes sure he's known 2220 01:38:14,760 --> 01:38:17,280 one way, then he can be different more easily so. 2221 01:38:17,320 --> 01:38:20,280 OK, I see that. Yeah, he wants to be seen as 2222 01:38:20,280 --> 01:38:21,040 that guy. That way. 2223 01:38:21,440 --> 01:38:22,840 He's the pet. He's the guy with a mirage 2224 01:38:22,840 --> 01:38:23,880 accent. So then they won't. 2225 01:38:23,880 --> 01:38:26,440 Yeah. OK, yeah, that does make some 2226 01:38:26,440 --> 01:38:29,440 sense. Now this is where we really get 2227 01:38:29,440 --> 01:38:32,600 into the style of criminal organization that resembles what 2228 01:38:32,600 --> 01:38:36,000 they're doing now. So stealing goods and reselling 2229 01:38:36,000 --> 01:38:38,440 them, that's fencing. You know, not the sword fighting 2230 01:38:38,440 --> 01:38:40,240 type obviously. That's the the selling of stolen 2231 01:38:40,240 --> 01:38:43,640 goods is is fencing obviously or nor is it you know putting a 2232 01:38:43,960 --> 01:38:45,960 barrier around your yard. It's not that kind of fencing 2233 01:38:46,000 --> 01:38:47,440 either. English is so confusing. 2234 01:38:47,440 --> 01:38:49,680 Three different fencings and they're not at all related 2235 01:38:50,440 --> 01:38:52,840 selling stolen goods. So thieves and mere learned over 2236 01:38:52,840 --> 01:38:55,360 time, you know through the through the thieve network which 2237 01:38:55,360 --> 01:38:57,120 as you said Sean wouldn't. They wouldn't know that about 2238 01:38:57,120 --> 01:38:59,680 him in Pentas. So he had to start over if they 2239 01:38:59,680 --> 01:39:03,400 don't sell their goods to Varus. They risk them getting stolen. 2240 01:39:03,400 --> 01:39:05,520 I guess that's even worse. It's like you better sell your 2241 01:39:05,600 --> 01:39:09,480 stuff, your goods to virus or you might get your stolen goods 2242 01:39:09,480 --> 01:39:12,160 stolen. The twist here is that's what's 2243 01:39:12,160 --> 01:39:14,800 different about the fence. In a real world fence, they just 2244 01:39:14,800 --> 01:39:18,400 sell stolen goods to whoever the twist is selling them back to 2245 01:39:18,400 --> 01:39:20,640 their original owners. That's not typical. 2246 01:39:21,680 --> 01:39:24,480 That's the unusual part of this. Would they have had to keep 2247 01:39:24,480 --> 01:39:26,760 their association hidden? Would Virus and Illyria not have 2248 01:39:26,760 --> 01:39:27,880 to be have associated with each other? 2249 01:39:27,880 --> 01:39:29,640 Like that's the guy who stole it you're selling. 2250 01:39:29,880 --> 01:39:31,800 People would find out that they're operating this. 2251 01:39:32,080 --> 01:39:34,360 You stole from me, you're selling me back stuff that you 2252 01:39:34,360 --> 01:39:35,600 stole. That wouldn't go well. 2253 01:39:35,600 --> 01:39:38,680 But if they just he's just this guy that has connection to the 2254 01:39:38,680 --> 01:39:41,120 underworld and it's not a direct connection to virus, that might 2255 01:39:41,120 --> 01:39:43,320 work. But I think they might have had 2256 01:39:43,320 --> 01:39:46,560 to keep their association kind of hidden from for this aspect 2257 01:39:46,560 --> 01:39:48,200 of their business to work. What do you think about? 2258 01:39:48,200 --> 01:39:50,560 That at least eventually, maybe They could have been sneaky 2259 01:39:50,560 --> 01:39:53,840 about it at first, but then by the time it starts to be figured 2260 01:39:53,840 --> 01:39:57,080 out there they've got too much wealth and connection. 2261 01:39:57,520 --> 01:39:59,280 People just have to accept it, you know? 2262 01:39:59,280 --> 01:40:01,800 Yeah. It reminds me of Omar from The 2263 01:40:01,800 --> 01:40:02,800 Wire. If you've seen The Wire, you 2264 01:40:02,800 --> 01:40:05,440 understand this reference. He was a stick up boy, which is 2265 01:40:05,440 --> 01:40:08,160 slang for someone who robs drug dealers. 2266 01:40:08,480 --> 01:40:10,000 And why would you rob a drug dealer? 2267 01:40:10,000 --> 01:40:12,880 Because they can't call the police if you if they steal your 2268 01:40:12,880 --> 01:40:15,440 heroin, how are you going to call, hey, this guy stole my 2269 01:40:15,440 --> 01:40:16,840 heroin. You know, like what are you 2270 01:40:16,840 --> 01:40:18,520 going? To OK, so you're you're going to 2271 01:40:18,520 --> 01:40:20,040 jail for the dealing heroin, right? 2272 01:40:20,040 --> 01:40:21,880 Yes. But get my drugs back for me 2273 01:40:22,640 --> 01:40:24,680 like you can't. There's no recourse. 2274 01:40:24,680 --> 01:40:27,320 And in and in the real world, the way a lot of these criminal 2275 01:40:27,320 --> 01:40:30,120 drug dealing gangs work is they don't carry weapons. 2276 01:40:30,200 --> 01:40:33,640 Your your penalty for getting caught with a with drugs and 2277 01:40:33,640 --> 01:40:36,480 guns at the same time is double or more. 2278 01:40:36,800 --> 01:40:38,720 But if you just have the drugs or just have the guns, your 2279 01:40:38,720 --> 01:40:40,840 penalty is way less. So they tend to like these drug 2280 01:40:40,840 --> 01:40:43,520 gangs, split that job. You have one guy who's the 2281 01:40:43,680 --> 01:40:47,360 enforcer who protects the guys holding the drugs or they hide 2282 01:40:47,360 --> 01:40:49,440 the drugs somewhere where you know they're not even it's not 2283 01:40:49,440 --> 01:40:52,280 even physically on their person. Either way there's no recourse 2284 01:40:52,280 --> 01:40:56,000 other than violence to a someone who steals from your criminal 2285 01:40:56,000 --> 01:40:58,480 organization. So it's if Varus steals from 2286 01:40:58,480 --> 01:41:01,600 another thief, their only chance that Justice is St. 2287 01:41:01,600 --> 01:41:04,000 Justice, right? That's the only form. 2288 01:41:04,200 --> 01:41:06,800 And Varus, of course, knows that he's got an organization. 2289 01:41:06,800 --> 01:41:09,800 He's probably that. He says Illyrio protected him. 2290 01:41:09,840 --> 01:41:11,360 That was part of. So Illyrio might have been a 2291 01:41:11,360 --> 01:41:12,800 pretty good at fighting, he says. 2292 01:41:12,800 --> 01:41:15,840 He was a a bravo and living by his. 2293 01:41:15,840 --> 01:41:17,800 Blade. So that seems to be his trade 2294 01:41:17,800 --> 01:41:21,440 was fighting. This is very mafioso, right? 2295 01:41:21,440 --> 01:41:23,640 They're stealing secrets. They're selling. 2296 01:41:23,640 --> 01:41:29,360 They're extorting blackmail, all the things that go into a mafia, 2297 01:41:29,520 --> 01:41:31,760 right? They're mobsters. 2298 01:41:32,080 --> 01:41:33,560 That's what Virus and Hilario were like. 2299 01:41:33,560 --> 01:41:36,320 Make no mistake, that's what they are were. 2300 01:41:36,440 --> 01:41:37,880 The reason? They might not have had to hide 2301 01:41:37,880 --> 01:41:40,880 their relationship with each other if Boris didn't do the 2302 01:41:40,920 --> 01:41:44,320 actual stealing, if he just got the information about where the 2303 01:41:44,320 --> 01:41:46,200 stuff was and had someone else do the stealing. 2304 01:41:46,200 --> 01:41:47,880 Oh yeah, yeah, that's a good point. 2305 01:41:48,000 --> 01:41:50,840 And and if he's disguising his voice and his look, so maybe 2306 01:41:50,840 --> 01:41:53,440 when he does do this stealing, it doesn't get recognized for 2307 01:41:53,440 --> 01:41:55,200 it, yeah. I wonder if he had a reputation 2308 01:41:55,200 --> 01:41:57,360 for sorcery there like. Catelyn and Ned are like how 2309 01:41:57,360 --> 01:41:58,040 the. Hell, does he do this. 2310 01:41:58,040 --> 01:41:58,760 It must. Be sorcery. 2311 01:41:58,760 --> 01:42:01,000 I mean, I wonder if some people in Pentas that had he had that 2312 01:42:01,000 --> 01:42:03,200 reputation, which would make him more feared and more people 2313 01:42:03,200 --> 01:42:07,040 like, yes, you better sell your stuff to virus because you think 2314 01:42:07,040 --> 01:42:09,200 you can hide it, but he's going to find it somehow. 2315 01:42:09,200 --> 01:42:11,440 Like, that dude might be using sorcery, so yeah. 2316 01:42:11,720 --> 01:42:13,480 Maybe he's actually using sorcery? 2317 01:42:13,480 --> 01:42:14,600 Maybe he really is. It's. 2318 01:42:15,080 --> 01:42:17,440 I'm not big on that idea, but I won't dismiss it. 2319 01:42:17,440 --> 01:42:20,240 I will not dismiss it. Let's talk about the little bird 2320 01:42:20,240 --> 01:42:23,040 slash mice 'cause this is probably the worst. 2321 01:42:23,440 --> 01:42:25,200 Probably. It's the worst thing he does 2322 01:42:25,200 --> 01:42:27,600 that we know of. I I want to point out something 2323 01:42:27,680 --> 01:42:29,480 else. That virus never makes a point 2324 01:42:29,480 --> 01:42:33,080 of it and maybe it's not a thing, but I realized that this 2325 01:42:33,080 --> 01:42:36,120 process that they shifted from stealing stuff to stealing 2326 01:42:36,120 --> 01:42:38,640 ideas. And I I think there was even a a 2327 01:42:38,640 --> 01:42:42,840 line where they would even like he teaches the birds or whatever 2328 01:42:42,840 --> 01:42:45,280 to to read something. He teaches them to read so they 2329 01:42:45,280 --> 01:42:46,600 can read it and leave the letter there. 2330 01:42:46,600 --> 01:42:47,680 He can still get the information. 2331 01:42:47,680 --> 01:42:49,400 They don't even know that it was stolen or whatever. 2332 01:42:49,880 --> 01:42:52,880 And it's hard to overestimate how valuable it can be to know, 2333 01:42:52,880 --> 01:42:57,120 like when a ship is coming into port, or when the tax man is 2334 01:42:57,120 --> 01:42:59,720 going to make the delivery of the what he collected. 2335 01:43:00,120 --> 01:43:03,200 Different things like that could be hugely valuable, but they 2336 01:43:03,200 --> 01:43:05,960 could also change the information. 2337 01:43:07,120 --> 01:43:10,240 Like Better Call Saul, right? Changing the legal filing. 2338 01:43:10,640 --> 01:43:14,160 Replace date times or lie or spread false information. 2339 01:43:14,160 --> 01:43:17,960 Plan inaccurate letters or dates and things like that, which also 2340 01:43:17,960 --> 01:43:21,400 can lead to all sorts of value for you when you know the truth 2341 01:43:21,400 --> 01:43:24,600 or know who you need to trick or when to make a guard leave his 2342 01:43:24,800 --> 01:43:27,720 guard post because there's a false schedule posted that you 2343 01:43:27,720 --> 01:43:31,600 made-up or whatever. So his ability not only to get 2344 01:43:31,600 --> 01:43:36,480 secrets, but to like disseminate information, true or false, to 2345 01:43:36,480 --> 01:43:40,680 whatever end he it's something that he wouldn't want anyone to 2346 01:43:40,680 --> 01:43:43,240 know about. I think he would do and would be 2347 01:43:43,240 --> 01:43:44,960 hugely valuable in a million different ways. 2348 01:43:45,080 --> 01:43:47,960 So if those of you listening and not watching, I was nodding 2349 01:43:47,960 --> 01:43:50,200 emphatically throughout basically everything Sean just 2350 01:43:50,200 --> 01:43:52,440 said, Yeah, well, yes, preach it, brother. 2351 01:43:52,760 --> 01:43:53,680 I agree with all. That, OK. 2352 01:43:53,680 --> 01:43:55,480 So yeah, let's talk about little birds, little mice. 2353 01:43:55,520 --> 01:44:00,600 And here's the quote for that. The older thieves were fools who 2354 01:44:00,600 --> 01:44:03,840 thought no further than turning a Knight's plunder into wine. 2355 01:44:04,280 --> 01:44:07,600 Varys preferred orphan boys and young girls. 2356 01:44:07,800 --> 01:44:11,880 He chose the smallest, the ones who were quick and quiet and 2357 01:44:11,880 --> 01:44:15,160 taught them to climb walls and slip down chimneys. 2358 01:44:15,400 --> 01:44:19,600 He taught them to read as well. We left the golden gems for 2359 01:44:19,600 --> 01:44:23,600 common thieves. Instead, our mice stole letters, 2360 01:44:23,720 --> 01:44:27,600 Ledgers, charts. Later they would read them and 2361 01:44:27,600 --> 01:44:31,000 leave them where they lay. Secrets are worth more than 2362 01:44:31,000 --> 01:44:34,040 silver or sapphires, Varys claimed. 2363 01:44:34,520 --> 01:44:36,360 Just so. You can see how this 2364 01:44:36,360 --> 01:44:37,680 corroborates other things they're saying. 2365 01:44:38,080 --> 01:44:41,640 First, he taught them to prowl the rooftops, climbing walls, 2366 01:44:41,640 --> 01:44:43,800 sneaking in chimneys and windows, which is exactly what 2367 01:44:43,800 --> 01:44:48,040 we we suggested was happening. And at first they stole the 2368 01:44:48,040 --> 01:44:50,480 secrets, but eventually they just copied them like you said, 2369 01:44:50,520 --> 01:44:53,400 Sean, the most. Sophisticated version of their 2370 01:44:53,400 --> 01:44:55,240 operation where the people wouldn't even know the 2371 01:44:55,240 --> 01:44:56,560 information. So because if you have a chart 2372 01:44:56,560 --> 01:44:58,640 missing, you're like, oh shoot, someone stole my secret chart 2373 01:44:58,640 --> 01:45:01,080 that has my plans, they at least know to be worried about that. 2374 01:45:01,200 --> 01:45:03,640 But in this latter scenario where they've they've advanced 2375 01:45:03,640 --> 01:45:05,680 to just stealing the information without actually stealing the 2376 01:45:05,680 --> 01:45:08,600 paperwork, you don't even know your information's been 2377 01:45:08,600 --> 01:45:10,520 compromised. Think like you said. 2378 01:45:10,520 --> 01:45:13,360 You gave some good examples, Sean, of schedules and timing 2379 01:45:13,360 --> 01:45:14,360 and things like that. But this? 2380 01:45:14,440 --> 01:45:16,960 This is. Corporate espionage on one. 2381 01:45:16,960 --> 01:45:21,200 Level like you steal their trade secrets like and equivalent in 2382 01:45:21,200 --> 01:45:24,000 this world would be Valyrian Steel or Wildfire. 2383 01:45:24,320 --> 01:45:25,920 We don't know. Only the people who make those 2384 01:45:25,920 --> 01:45:27,240 know how that's done. Now I don't think Virus 2385 01:45:27,240 --> 01:45:29,360 necessarily knows how to make Wildfire or Valyrian Steel, but 2386 01:45:29,360 --> 01:45:32,160 it's an example of a proprietary secret that exists in that 2387 01:45:32,160 --> 01:45:34,600 world. Most likely he made use of 2388 01:45:34,600 --> 01:45:37,120 secrets that could destroy or embarrass powerful people or 2389 01:45:37,120 --> 01:45:40,440 families rather than stealing trade secrets like exposing that 2390 01:45:40,440 --> 01:45:43,160 one business partners cheating on the other or faking that. 2391 01:45:43,160 --> 01:45:46,040 Like you said, Sean, that's a great pivot, a great alternate 2392 01:45:46,040 --> 01:45:47,800 idea. Rather than you can blackmail 2393 01:45:47,800 --> 01:45:49,640 them to say, I'm going to make it look like you stole from your 2394 01:45:49,640 --> 01:45:51,920 partner, and we all know your partner is the kind of guy that 2395 01:45:51,920 --> 01:45:54,160 would kill you. If you found out this, so give 2396 01:45:54,160 --> 01:45:56,680 me some money or or you're screwed. 2397 01:45:56,880 --> 01:45:59,400 Or like the partner really is cheating and they're like, well, 2398 01:45:59,400 --> 01:46:01,560 I'm going to prove, I'm going to show them proof that you cheated 2399 01:46:01,560 --> 01:46:03,800 on them unless you, you know, give me some money. 2400 01:46:03,920 --> 01:46:06,840 Or some more secrets, maybe even better, more secrets. 2401 01:46:06,960 --> 01:46:11,480 So exposing an affair or parentage, right? 2402 01:46:11,560 --> 01:46:14,080 Big deals. Like, there's so many things 2403 01:46:14,240 --> 01:46:16,680 that you could, and it's not hard to see why this made them 2404 01:46:16,680 --> 01:46:19,840 powerful and hated. Just absolutely hated. 2405 01:46:19,960 --> 01:46:21,840 But the kind of hated that you can't always do something about 2406 01:46:21,840 --> 01:46:25,040 because he's got dirt on you. Like, what are you going to do? 2407 01:46:25,040 --> 01:46:27,880 Like if you come at him and met another Omar reference, if you 2408 01:46:27,880 --> 01:46:30,960 come at the king, you best not miss 'cause his his payback will 2409 01:46:30,960 --> 01:46:33,120 be more than you can handle. If you don't take him out, he's 2410 01:46:33,120 --> 01:46:35,360 going to take you out and that's that's that would be the fear of 2411 01:46:35,360 --> 01:46:37,000 ours. Especially if they're worried he 2412 01:46:37,000 --> 01:46:39,120 uses black magic, they're like, oh crap, like, I can't. 2413 01:46:39,120 --> 01:46:41,880 I'm too afraid to go after him. He's got, he's so powerful. 2414 01:46:42,080 --> 01:46:44,720 He might be using sorcery. I'm not even going to do it. 2415 01:46:44,720 --> 01:46:47,200 I'm just going to play. Along army of little mice or 2416 01:46:47,200 --> 01:46:50,680 little birds, he's got Ilario or whoever his bodyguards. 2417 01:46:50,720 --> 01:46:53,720 He seems to just have powers. You can't know things that you 2418 01:46:53,720 --> 01:46:55,440 don't even know how we can understand. 2419 01:46:56,280 --> 01:47:01,240 And Varus is also going to offer a carrot and a stick, right? 2420 01:47:01,240 --> 01:47:03,320 So like, he just hits it from every angle. 2421 01:47:03,680 --> 01:47:06,040 And he doesn't have, like, notice in Westeros. 2422 01:47:06,040 --> 01:47:07,080 He doesn't walk around with guards. 2423 01:47:07,080 --> 01:47:08,720 He doesn't have people protecting him as part of his 2424 01:47:08,720 --> 01:47:10,200 vibe. Like, I'm not threatening, you 2425 01:47:10,200 --> 01:47:12,480 know, I'm not threatening, you know, like anyone could just cut 2426 01:47:12,480 --> 01:47:14,760 my head off. It's part of it's a tightrope 2427 01:47:14,760 --> 01:47:16,960 he's walking there. I'm not sure he walked such a 2428 01:47:16,960 --> 01:47:18,880 narrow tightrope back in Pentas when his enemies. 2429 01:47:18,880 --> 01:47:21,080 Were like more able to get at him like he's lives at the Red 2430 01:47:21,080 --> 01:47:24,120 Key, but it's hard to come at, you know, who's going to murder 2431 01:47:24,120 --> 01:47:25,440 him in the Red Key. There are answers to that 2432 01:47:25,440 --> 01:47:28,200 question, but there's a lot fewer answers than there would 2433 01:47:28,240 --> 01:47:30,920 have been in Pentas than. The streets in Pentas, yeah. 2434 01:47:31,000 --> 01:47:33,640 Yeah, so he's not. And he's also not making enemies 2435 01:47:33,640 --> 01:47:36,200 in the same way he did. Like, he's not he he's still 2436 01:47:36,200 --> 01:47:37,920 stealing secrets and stuff like that, but he's not. 2437 01:47:37,920 --> 01:47:41,160 Like he's not blackmailing and and doing stuff like that and 2438 01:47:41,160 --> 01:47:44,000 extorting nearly as much. It doesn't seem like in in 2439 01:47:44,000 --> 01:47:45,800 Westeros. He's more about identifying 2440 01:47:45,800 --> 01:47:49,760 treason and identifying. He's being allies if anything, 2441 01:47:49,800 --> 01:47:51,360 right? Yeah, that. 2442 01:47:51,360 --> 01:47:52,160 Yeah. It's kind of a pivot. 2443 01:47:52,160 --> 01:47:54,760 He's more like this makes me people want me on their side. 2444 01:47:54,760 --> 01:47:57,800 Like I want to be valuable for what I know, rather than hated 2445 01:47:57,800 --> 01:48:00,960 for what I know. Even people that don't like the 2446 01:48:00,960 --> 01:48:04,840 type of thing he's doing still recognizes, recognizes value. 2447 01:48:05,640 --> 01:48:08,120 Even they don't trust them, they still go to him. 2448 01:48:08,120 --> 01:48:10,240 They still listen to him then? Good point. 2449 01:48:10,560 --> 01:48:13,640 So as awful as the story of what was done to him as being cut of 2450 01:48:13,640 --> 01:48:16,160 being a slave, being orphaned, all those things, it seems he's 2451 01:48:16,160 --> 01:48:18,440 done the same to these children, these these little birds. 2452 01:48:18,880 --> 01:48:22,160 He cuts their tongues out. He teaches them a secret 2453 01:48:22,160 --> 01:48:25,720 language. He presumably disposes of them 2454 01:48:25,720 --> 01:48:28,320 or has them just work at Illyrio's house when they're too 2455 01:48:28,320 --> 01:48:30,560 old and large to seek down chimneys anymore. 2456 01:48:30,680 --> 01:48:33,960 A lot of effort goes into it, Not to praise him, but. 2457 01:48:34,000 --> 01:48:36,360 It's got to be hard to teach. Children, all these skills or 2458 01:48:36,360 --> 01:48:38,760 teach anyone all these skills. This is very advanced training. 2459 01:48:38,760 --> 01:48:41,800 This is like CIA training, but horrifying. 2460 01:48:42,000 --> 01:48:45,840 And just learn all these skills that you don't shouldn't teach 2461 01:48:45,840 --> 01:48:46,720 children. I mean it's. 2462 01:48:46,720 --> 01:48:47,880 Awful. So yeah, if you ever find 2463 01:48:47,880 --> 01:48:50,240 yourself thinking bars is a good guy, just remember this and 2464 01:48:50,240 --> 01:48:52,760 question. That you know like well, I don't 2465 01:48:52,760 --> 01:48:53,600 know. I don't know about. 2466 01:48:53,600 --> 01:48:57,000 That maybe he does have. A noble end goal, but there is 2467 01:48:57,000 --> 01:48:58,840 no way around this as an evil thing. 2468 01:48:58,920 --> 01:49:03,160 I tried to, like, justify him. I try to like, well, maybe he's 2469 01:49:03,160 --> 01:49:07,000 finding kids who are already starving destitute orphans and 2470 01:49:07,000 --> 01:49:11,360 giving him some other option and having their tongue tut out. 2471 01:49:11,360 --> 01:49:14,560 Their, their, their tongue cut. Out their tongue tut. 2472 01:49:14,600 --> 01:49:17,560 Out is better than starving on the streets or whatever else 2473 01:49:17,560 --> 01:49:20,040 might come of them, but it's. Pretty questionable. 2474 01:49:20,600 --> 01:49:22,840 Right. Like maybe he's finding, you 2475 01:49:22,840 --> 01:49:25,360 know, the lesser 2 evils. But that's not true either, 2476 01:49:25,360 --> 01:49:26,800 'cause he could just. Feed them. 2477 01:49:26,800 --> 01:49:28,640 He's got money. Yeah, you. 2478 01:49:28,960 --> 01:49:31,880 Know he has enough powers and secrets and wealth that he could 2479 01:49:32,080 --> 01:49:34,480 provide better for them rather than take advantage of them. 2480 01:49:34,720 --> 01:49:38,040 Even if he's raising them up from a worse situation, he's 2481 01:49:38,040 --> 01:49:41,320 still raising them into a bad situation when he could raise 2482 01:49:41,320 --> 01:49:44,600 him into a good situation. And even if it is for an 2483 01:49:44,600 --> 01:49:50,280 ostensibly long term greater good, we don't see that and it's 2484 01:49:50,280 --> 01:49:52,440 hard to think how great the good could be to justify what he's 2485 01:49:52,440 --> 01:49:53,920 doing. And and that's also with me 2486 01:49:53,920 --> 01:49:56,760 trying to get him benefited it out like so. 2487 01:49:56,760 --> 01:49:59,840 Like he might not even deserve that so good. 2488 01:50:00,760 --> 01:50:02,840 Point it's. Rough it's it's like, I don't 2489 01:50:02,840 --> 01:50:05,240 know. And again, not to justify him, 2490 01:50:05,240 --> 01:50:08,720 but recruiting kids in your army is not that much better, right 2491 01:50:09,120 --> 01:50:12,200 here, take this sword and shield and go kill other people. 2492 01:50:12,200 --> 01:50:17,320 Isn't that much better than take this, you know, skeleton key and 2493 01:50:17,320 --> 01:50:19,120 break into this house and steal this stuff? 2494 01:50:19,120 --> 01:50:21,240 I guess you have to cut the tongue out, but people get their 2495 01:50:21,240 --> 01:50:23,840 hands and legs and charts cut out and battle. 2496 01:50:23,920 --> 01:50:25,920 In war, you're probably. Going to lose some parts, if not 2497 01:50:25,920 --> 01:50:27,520 all of them. Yeah, you know, yeah, you're 2498 01:50:27,520 --> 01:50:28,640 right. Especially with with when you're 2499 01:50:28,640 --> 01:50:30,920 poor like that, you don't have armor and whatever, you're just 2500 01:50:30,960 --> 01:50:34,280 recruited with very little. So maybe you could argue that 2501 01:50:34,280 --> 01:50:38,000 these spy efforts sacrifice. I don't know. 2502 01:50:38,000 --> 01:50:41,800 If you score kids, stop a war that might sacrifice a few 2503 01:50:41,800 --> 01:50:44,000 thousands of kids. Yeah. 2504 01:50:44,360 --> 01:50:46,520 I guess maybe you can just. I don't know. 2505 01:50:46,520 --> 01:50:48,400 I don't know. I feel like I'm reaching and 2506 01:50:48,400 --> 01:50:50,480 trying to defend this. Yeah, but it's, I mean, it's 2507 01:50:50,480 --> 01:50:51,760 worth trying to make that a case. 2508 01:50:51,760 --> 01:50:53,360 But at the end of it, yeah, I feel the same way. 2509 01:50:53,360 --> 01:50:54,680 I'm like, yeah, you make the case. 2510 01:50:54,680 --> 01:50:55,920 But you don't feel good about it afterwards. 2511 01:50:55,920 --> 01:50:57,880 Like, yeah, I don't know if I agree with my my own argument 2512 01:50:57,880 --> 01:50:59,520 here, but. I get. 2513 01:50:59,800 --> 01:51:04,760 For me, it makes me lean on the idea of always having some sort 2514 01:51:04,920 --> 01:51:08,360 of, in his eyes, ultimately noble goal. 2515 01:51:09,200 --> 01:51:14,680 Like, I don't see what he gets out of this to justify what he's 2516 01:51:14,680 --> 01:51:16,120 choosing to do. You know what I mean? 2517 01:51:16,120 --> 01:51:20,600 Like, it doesn't make sense to me, like he's found such success 2518 01:51:20,600 --> 01:51:25,840 and security and etcetera. Why keep doing this unless that 2519 01:51:25,840 --> 01:51:30,840 he had some large overarching goal that like, is in his eyes 2520 01:51:30,840 --> 01:51:33,080 noble and for the best of the realm? 2521 01:51:33,400 --> 01:51:34,600 You know. He would have to go to a place 2522 01:51:34,600 --> 01:51:37,720 like Westeros to have that impact because Essos is not a 2523 01:51:37,720 --> 01:51:41,120 united place where like getting to rising to the top at Pentos 2524 01:51:41,120 --> 01:51:44,920 only gives you power in Pentos, whereas rising to the top at the 2525 01:51:44,920 --> 01:51:47,160 Red Keep gives you power over all of Westeros. 2526 01:51:47,360 --> 01:51:49,400 And maybe a little power over Pentos also. 2527 01:51:49,600 --> 01:51:52,480 True, it's a place where he can, he can have a bigger effect 2528 01:51:52,480 --> 01:51:54,720 because he can affect the whole country rather than one city. 2529 01:51:55,000 --> 01:51:59,360 So that might help us understand why he went to, why he decided 2530 01:51:59,360 --> 01:52:01,720 to go to West, why he took the job, which is a big question. 2531 01:52:01,720 --> 01:52:03,360 Why did he take the job from Aries? 2532 01:52:03,560 --> 01:52:05,840 Why did he give up all this wealth, this position of power? 2533 01:52:06,080 --> 01:52:07,800 Why is he starting from scratch again? 2534 01:52:07,800 --> 01:52:09,800 We talked about how moving from here to Pentas would be starting 2535 01:52:09,800 --> 01:52:10,800 from scratch. He's got to start. 2536 01:52:10,800 --> 01:52:13,840 All his criminal activities have to be restarted from the 2537 01:52:13,840 --> 01:52:15,680 beginning. He's a little. 2538 01:52:15,680 --> 01:52:18,360 Better at it this third time around, I'm sure, and this time 2539 01:52:18,360 --> 01:52:20,720 he's got the Crown's gold to help with a huge head start. 2540 01:52:20,720 --> 01:52:24,880 But still why? Well, the the why question is 2541 01:52:24,880 --> 01:52:27,040 still there, but it is worth pointing out he might not be 2542 01:52:27,040 --> 01:52:30,200 starting quite as much from scratch because I suppose he 2543 01:52:30,360 --> 01:52:33,440 plotted this for a while. He already got contacts set up 2544 01:52:33,520 --> 01:52:35,280 in Westeros or Red Keeper, whatever. 2545 01:52:35,280 --> 01:52:37,040 He has his own wealth that he accumulated there. 2546 01:52:37,040 --> 01:52:39,000 He gets to bring with him in addition to the crown's gold. 2547 01:52:39,000 --> 01:52:43,080 So now it's still probably at first was a step down but it 2548 01:52:43,080 --> 01:52:45,520 does set him up to have a bigger impact like we're saying. 2549 01:52:46,000 --> 01:52:49,480 And so if he has some goal of like making the world better 2550 01:52:49,480 --> 01:52:53,960 through a better leader or you know whatever else maybe even 2551 01:52:53,960 --> 01:52:56,680 something crazy like he also knows about the prophecy or was 2552 01:52:56,680 --> 01:52:59,120 worried about the white Walkers that that that seems like a 2553 01:52:59,120 --> 01:53:01,440 stretch too since he's never said anything about it and seems 2554 01:53:01,440 --> 01:53:03,600 like you should or could have been angling more toward the 2555 01:53:03,600 --> 01:53:05,000 support the wall if that was the case. 2556 01:53:05,000 --> 01:53:08,680 But one or the other what is the the the path to evil is paid 2557 01:53:08,680 --> 01:53:10,640 with good intentions you know like it. 2558 01:53:10,640 --> 01:53:14,320 Maybe he does have some sort of altruistic goals, but he's lost 2559 01:53:14,320 --> 01:53:15,720 sight of it, I feel like. I agree. 2560 01:53:16,000 --> 01:53:18,440 The other thing here is that think about how much Varys has 2561 01:53:18,440 --> 01:53:21,840 to put on like a a certain persona all the time in 2562 01:53:21,840 --> 01:53:24,200 Westeros. He's not just like, as you said, 2563 01:53:24,200 --> 01:53:27,560 like it's a slight step down for the chance of a step up, though. 2564 01:53:27,880 --> 01:53:32,960 It's like he might have had some amount of pleasures, enjoyment, 2565 01:53:32,960 --> 01:53:35,480 freedom. Like other things in his life, 2566 01:53:35,480 --> 01:53:39,800 when he lived in Pentos, he could not put on persona all the 2567 01:53:39,800 --> 01:53:43,360 time, but he is committing when he goes to Westers like he is 2568 01:53:43,360 --> 01:53:46,040 doing this. Full time memory all day like. 2569 01:53:46,040 --> 01:53:48,080 Is he really this effeminate? Is he really this? 2570 01:53:48,680 --> 01:53:50,880 Is that his real speaking voice? Like none of these things. 2571 01:53:50,880 --> 01:53:53,040 We can't trust any of it. Like, all of it could be putting 2572 01:53:53,040 --> 01:53:55,440 on airs, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I'm like, he had to 2573 01:53:55,440 --> 01:53:56,840 he. I guess my point is he 2574 01:53:56,840 --> 01:54:01,280 sacrificed a certain amount of his comfort and freedom actually 2575 01:54:01,280 --> 01:54:02,960 for us that he could never make. Up. 2576 01:54:02,960 --> 01:54:04,360 Why? Again, it's like, what is his 2577 01:54:04,360 --> 01:54:06,200 ambition here? He certainly gave up a lot for 2578 01:54:06,200 --> 01:54:07,200 it. That's that's important. 2579 01:54:07,320 --> 01:54:10,320 And comfort, freedom, and maybe even identity and morality also. 2580 01:54:10,960 --> 01:54:13,840 Yes, And comfort, Yeah, he gave. Up a lot, he gave he. 2581 01:54:14,040 --> 01:54:15,480 Maybe. Looks like he took more risks. 2582 01:54:15,480 --> 01:54:17,640 Yeah, it's just. It's a big question, yeah, Why 2583 01:54:17,640 --> 01:54:19,000 did he do it? What, what brought him to 2584 01:54:19,000 --> 01:54:21,320 Westeros? So if we're going back to his 2585 01:54:21,560 --> 01:54:24,840 criminal organization stuff, if you argue that he has 2586 01:54:24,840 --> 01:54:27,200 humanitarian. Goals now, which I'm open to, 2587 01:54:27,200 --> 01:54:30,040 even though it's questionable. He definitely didn't seem to 2588 01:54:30,040 --> 01:54:32,320 have that when he was just a master thief for Prince of 2589 01:54:32,320 --> 01:54:35,640 thieves or selling secrets and stealing from the wealthy that 2590 01:54:35,880 --> 01:54:39,240 it's already hard to argue that was humanitarian, even if he 2591 01:54:39,240 --> 01:54:43,240 wasn't like a guy who's like addicted to wealth or his 2592 01:54:44,080 --> 01:54:45,840 primary motivation isn't necessarily money. 2593 01:54:45,920 --> 01:54:49,680 Maybe it's being recognized or not being seen as a nobody. 2594 01:54:49,680 --> 01:54:52,160 If we go back to the story about the sorcerer and how he was just 2595 01:54:52,160 --> 01:54:54,000 like, yeah, you're you're nobody just die, you know? 2596 01:54:54,160 --> 01:54:56,080 Normally when you. Peg someone as a master criminal 2597 01:54:56,080 --> 01:55:00,160 slash mafia so you you pending on personal ambition, not like, 2598 01:55:00,160 --> 01:55:02,320 oh, I'm a mafioso because I want to change the world. 2599 01:55:02,440 --> 01:55:04,840 On the other hand, you do. Occasionally see like Mafia 2600 01:55:04,840 --> 01:55:09,120 bosses have a surprising sympathy for their people who 2601 01:55:09,120 --> 01:55:10,680 have not criminals like they like. 2602 01:55:10,680 --> 01:55:15,080 They really want to take care of certain families or cities or 2603 01:55:15,080 --> 01:55:17,840 places that are not evil or not bad. 2604 01:55:18,080 --> 01:55:22,720 They just have a fondness for that, and they do good for that 2605 01:55:22,800 --> 01:55:25,400 aspect of their life while still doing all sorts of other evil 2606 01:55:25,400 --> 01:55:27,360 things. It's even even that gets a 2607 01:55:27,360 --> 01:55:28,960 little Gray. So if we're trying to give 2608 01:55:28,960 --> 01:55:31,520 examples of like, evil people doing good things, there's 2609 01:55:31,520 --> 01:55:34,480 plenty of examples. You know, so far as maybe that's 2610 01:55:34,480 --> 01:55:38,320 the bucket to put him in, even though it's it's still not a one 2611 01:55:38,320 --> 01:55:40,360 to one relationship. It's, you know, you can kind of 2612 01:55:40,360 --> 01:55:41,520 feel the difference there, I guess. 2613 01:55:41,680 --> 01:55:44,520 And. The point isn't to think about 2614 01:55:44,600 --> 01:55:48,040 how these little birds, little mice, were abused and 2615 01:55:48,040 --> 01:55:49,960 manipulated. It's definitely matters, of 2616 01:55:49,960 --> 01:55:52,520 course, but it's to remind ourselves of what we're dealing 2617 01:55:52,520 --> 01:55:54,600 with this. Is what virus is capable of. 2618 01:55:55,080 --> 01:55:56,160 This is what this man is capable of. 2619 01:55:56,160 --> 01:55:58,880 He's willing to just put on this persona. 2620 01:55:58,880 --> 01:56:02,160 Like we said, adopt A personality and and act to be a 2621 01:56:02,160 --> 01:56:05,760 mummer for 20 years for whatever goal he has in mind and so he's 2622 01:56:05,920 --> 01:56:09,040 he's suffering for his goal as as well, whatever it is, in 2623 01:56:09,040 --> 01:56:12,040 addition to forcing these children to suffer and do these 2624 01:56:12,040 --> 01:56:14,320 things and all that. I mean, think of how dead eyed 2625 01:56:14,320 --> 01:56:17,360 they look when Kevin is faced with the kids, with the daggers 2626 01:56:17,360 --> 01:56:19,000 just surrounding him coming to stab him to death. 2627 01:56:20,080 --> 01:56:21,960 They don't. They come off like a little. 2628 01:56:21,960 --> 01:56:25,160 Inhuman, the way Kevin sees them, like they don't seem like 2629 01:56:25,160 --> 01:56:26,400 the way they're looking at him and everything. 2630 01:56:26,400 --> 01:56:28,080 It doesn't. It's ominous and. 2631 01:56:28,160 --> 01:56:29,960 Dark. That commitment is probably one 2632 01:56:29,960 --> 01:56:32,680 of the ways that I felt that there was some sort of parallel 2633 01:56:32,680 --> 01:56:36,480 connection with Melisandre between them is that we seem to 2634 01:56:36,480 --> 01:56:39,600 have seen that she is fully committed and would sacrifice 2635 01:56:39,600 --> 01:56:43,320 even her life if that's true, you know, for her cause. 2636 01:56:43,600 --> 01:56:47,080 And I think like this is Varri sacrificing his life, his 2637 01:56:47,080 --> 01:56:50,200 entire, like you said, 20 years of him living this particular 2638 01:56:50,200 --> 01:56:52,080 life in the pursuit of this, I don't know. 2639 01:56:52,320 --> 01:56:55,760 Maybe there's an argument for he does enjoy an element of it. 2640 01:56:55,760 --> 01:56:59,120 He loves being a mummer. He loves tricking people and and 2641 01:56:59,120 --> 01:57:03,080 seeing people be puzzled by like maybe, maybe I am being too 2642 01:57:03,080 --> 01:57:06,080 extreme when I say that he was like sacrificing him his life 2643 01:57:06,080 --> 01:57:09,280 for 20 years to this 'cause maybe he actually enjoyed lots 2644 01:57:09,320 --> 01:57:10,640 of this. He might have loved it. 2645 01:57:10,800 --> 01:57:12,960 It's possible he might like taking advantage of people. 2646 01:57:13,320 --> 01:57:14,440 Manipulating. To do his bidding. 2647 01:57:14,440 --> 01:57:17,120 Through he might be like, ha ha, silly Westeros nobles, they're 2648 01:57:17,120 --> 01:57:17,760 so. Dumb. 2649 01:57:17,760 --> 01:57:19,920 This is fun. And. 2650 01:57:20,080 --> 01:57:21,880 How did this get started? I guess just 'cause he. 2651 01:57:22,160 --> 01:57:25,160 It was what was done to him. He had had awful things done to 2652 01:57:25,160 --> 01:57:27,200 him, like the child slave forced to do stuff. 2653 01:57:27,200 --> 01:57:29,840 He's like trained a certain way. He's like, Yep, I'm going to do 2654 01:57:29,840 --> 01:57:32,640 that to others. It's a parallel to. 2655 01:57:32,880 --> 01:57:34,120 It's a common, rather, maybe not parallel. 2656 01:57:34,120 --> 01:57:35,920 It's a common theme throughout A Song of Ice and Fire. 2657 01:57:36,320 --> 01:57:40,960 What we do is what was done to us, You know, pay it forward. 2658 01:57:41,120 --> 01:57:43,720 We dance on the strings of those who came before us. 2659 01:57:43,720 --> 01:57:45,960 It's it's pointed. Out a number of different ways, 2660 01:57:46,120 --> 01:57:47,320 but it's kind of the same concept. 2661 01:57:47,560 --> 01:57:51,520 We are to some extent the product of our environment and 2662 01:57:51,920 --> 01:57:53,840 what was done to us is often what we do to others. 2663 01:57:53,880 --> 01:57:56,480 You know, we we inflict our trauma on on other people. 2664 01:57:56,880 --> 01:58:00,760 That's very common. And it's kind of ironic too 2665 01:58:00,760 --> 01:58:04,320 because Varus's spy operation really relies on this. 2666 01:58:04,320 --> 01:58:09,240 This is the heart of what makes him so good at ferreting out 2667 01:58:09,240 --> 01:58:11,280 secrets and. Why people are like how does he 2668 01:58:11,280 --> 01:58:13,960 get these secrets? It must be sorcery. 2669 01:58:14,360 --> 01:58:17,680 Which, as we say, might be very ironic given his possible hatred 2670 01:58:17,680 --> 01:58:20,600 of sorcery. But it's like it's one of those 2671 01:58:20,600 --> 01:58:23,280 answer before the question, things that we we've had a 2672 01:58:23,280 --> 01:58:26,080 number of times to point out, a number of occasions to point 2673 01:58:26,080 --> 01:58:28,560 out. Like Cat brings up the idea that 2674 01:58:28,560 --> 01:58:34,160 Bars might be a sorcerer, a full book before this origin story 2675 01:58:34,160 --> 01:58:35,600 that he tells Tyrion about hating sorcery. 2676 01:58:35,600 --> 01:58:37,520 So you might go a whole book thinking it's actually possible, 2677 01:58:37,520 --> 01:58:39,880 and you later later you'll find out it's not sorcery. 2678 01:58:40,480 --> 01:58:43,640 Probably it's something way more awful. 2679 01:58:44,200 --> 01:58:46,600 Of course, we arguably isn't even awful, although the type of 2680 01:58:46,600 --> 01:58:47,920 sorcery done to him. That he was. 2681 01:58:47,920 --> 01:58:51,520 Described certainly is. But you find that out later. 2682 01:58:51,520 --> 01:58:55,120 Like so It's little birds. And that's why he's so good at 2683 01:58:55,120 --> 01:58:57,200 ferreting out secrets. It's something that Ned and Kat 2684 01:58:57,200 --> 01:58:59,960 can't conceptualize. They're like, he does what now 2685 01:59:00,520 --> 01:59:03,480 they're not even close to. Figuring out the truth. 2686 01:59:03,880 --> 01:59:06,240 They know he has own informants, they know he has spies, but they 2687 01:59:06,240 --> 01:59:09,360 don't realize he's training child slaves and cutting their 2688 01:59:09,360 --> 01:59:11,440 tongues out, that that's completely in the dark. 2689 01:59:11,440 --> 01:59:12,680 They're completely in the dark about that. 2690 01:59:12,720 --> 01:59:14,640 That's another reason to call them little birds, both in 2691 01:59:14,640 --> 01:59:17,480 general and versus mice. Because you can imagine someone 2692 01:59:17,480 --> 01:59:20,520 mistreating mice, but it's hard to imagine someone mistreating 2693 01:59:20,520 --> 01:59:21,440 birds. Does that make sense? 2694 01:59:21,440 --> 01:59:25,640 It just sounds so nicer, even when Caitlin or you know so and 2695 01:59:25,640 --> 01:59:28,360 more on on the outskirts or even kind of close in. 2696 01:59:28,360 --> 01:59:31,360 Here's about varices, little birds like oh, how sweet. 2697 01:59:31,360 --> 01:59:35,360 You giving the kids little chores, you know like doesn't 2698 01:59:35,360 --> 01:59:38,080 seem so sinister as the reality that you find out. 2699 01:59:38,600 --> 01:59:41,080 And I'm guessing he's careful not to let many people find that 2700 01:59:41,080 --> 01:59:43,640 reality out, right? Yep, you're right about. 2701 01:59:43,720 --> 01:59:49,400 That So what is it ultimately? What brought him to Westeros is 2702 01:59:49,400 --> 01:59:52,280 a question we cannot answer, but it is a question worth posing. 2703 01:59:52,440 --> 01:59:55,200 Why did he take this job? What was his angle? 2704 01:59:55,200 --> 01:59:57,560 What did he see as his end game? Is it? 2705 01:59:57,560 --> 01:59:58,640 Is it? This is an. 2706 01:59:58,640 --> 02:00:01,440 Opportunity to impact a large population and do good. 2707 02:00:01,680 --> 02:00:04,520 Or is it just moving up the ladder? 2708 02:00:04,520 --> 02:00:06,240 The criminal ladder? They keep moving up higher 2709 02:00:06,240 --> 02:00:09,640 there. They first they stole gems and 2710 02:00:09,640 --> 02:00:11,280 valuables, then they stole secrets. 2711 02:00:11,280 --> 02:00:14,320 Then they just copied secrets. Then that just kept going up the 2712 02:00:14,320 --> 02:00:16,720 ladder. Is this just higher up on the 2713 02:00:16,720 --> 02:00:20,440 ladder, manipulating an entire country, doing their their game, 2714 02:00:21,000 --> 02:00:23,520 their which which is stealing something and then selling it 2715 02:00:23,520 --> 02:00:26,000 back? They have stolen peace and 2716 02:00:26,000 --> 02:00:28,680 prosperity from Westeros and are trying to sell it back in the 2717 02:00:28,680 --> 02:00:31,800 form of Aegon, a champion who will bring peace and prosperity. 2718 02:00:32,160 --> 02:00:34,760 But they're a big part of the reason that the realm is in 2719 02:00:34,760 --> 02:00:37,920 chaos in the 1st place. So it's that same game that 2720 02:00:37,920 --> 02:00:42,840 they've been doing for decades. Steal something, sell it back. 2721 02:00:43,840 --> 02:00:46,720 They're just, in this case, it's peace and prosperity. 2722 02:00:47,040 --> 02:00:48,880 Even if they and they're like, yeah, but we're we're going to 2723 02:00:48,880 --> 02:00:50,880 give them peace and prosperity. We're not bad guys. 2724 02:00:50,880 --> 02:00:54,680 I don't know, even if you fully believe what he says to Kevin 2725 02:00:54,680 --> 02:00:58,240 when Kevin Lay's dying, there's got to be more to it, though, 2726 02:00:58,440 --> 02:01:00,680 even if that's his goal, there's still more to it. 2727 02:01:01,480 --> 02:01:05,120 It's a it was a huge reveal, but it was not a complete reveal. 2728 02:01:05,400 --> 02:01:07,360 Another thought too, Sean backing up just a little bit. 2729 02:01:07,360 --> 02:01:09,840 You all were saying how this, this virus and his his little 2730 02:01:09,840 --> 02:01:11,960 birds are are parallel to some things. 2731 02:01:12,080 --> 02:01:14,600 One other parallel is to the others, because the recurring 2732 02:01:14,600 --> 02:01:17,560 theme of the whole series. Is, is. 2733 02:01:18,120 --> 02:01:20,280 Power, authority, slavery, Control. 2734 02:01:20,640 --> 02:01:22,000 The others are controlling the dead. 2735 02:01:22,680 --> 02:01:25,040 They and some of whom may have memories. 2736 02:01:25,360 --> 02:01:27,840 Whether you have slavery in Slavery's Bay or this and that, 2737 02:01:27,840 --> 02:01:31,200 this is another form of. That this is enslavement with 2738 02:01:31,200 --> 02:01:33,320 darkness. It's the reason those kids look 2739 02:01:33,320 --> 02:01:36,440 evil and and dark is because George wanted to show that this 2740 02:01:36,440 --> 02:01:37,400 is evil. I mean, it doesn't. 2741 02:01:37,400 --> 02:01:40,960 You don't need to do much to show that it's evil to do this 2742 02:01:40,960 --> 02:01:44,480 with children, but. He made very sure to emphasize 2743 02:01:44,480 --> 02:01:46,520 that and remember what's happening in the scene. 2744 02:01:46,880 --> 02:01:50,280 It's cold. Icy wind is blowing through the 2745 02:01:50,280 --> 02:01:52,760 window. He wants to close it, but then 2746 02:01:52,760 --> 02:01:55,640 he virus opened the window because Pycelle shot himself 2747 02:01:55,640 --> 02:01:56,120 when he died. He. 2748 02:01:56,760 --> 02:01:58,720 Wanted to stink to be out, so it's kind of a very. 2749 02:01:59,040 --> 02:02:01,400 Mundane reason for the window to be open, but it's still case 2750 02:02:01,400 --> 02:02:03,720 that effect. Kevin sees the White Raven 2751 02:02:04,040 --> 02:02:07,560 before right before he shot, so we're absolutely thinking of the 2752 02:02:07,560 --> 02:02:10,000 others he's looking. Oh look, Winter, right Raven. 2753 02:02:10,000 --> 02:02:11,680 Bam Shot. Virus Really. 2754 02:02:11,680 --> 02:02:13,880 Is an ice spider as big as a hound? 2755 02:02:14,760 --> 02:02:17,160 Yeah, instead of eight legs, the children are like his other 2756 02:02:17,160 --> 02:02:17,600 legs. It's. 2757 02:02:17,680 --> 02:02:19,280 It's. More symbolic than literal, 2758 02:02:19,280 --> 02:02:22,480 Yeah. So it's amazing how Virus is so 2759 02:02:22,480 --> 02:02:26,320 unique, so different, so mysterious. 2760 02:02:26,320 --> 02:02:29,640 Yet he still fits so many of the themes of the book. 2761 02:02:29,640 --> 02:02:33,920 Some of the central themes of power, control, ambition, making 2762 02:02:33,920 --> 02:02:36,320 a mark on the world. Love versus duty. 2763 02:02:36,320 --> 02:02:38,400 Which we're not quite sure how that fits in with him, but it 2764 02:02:38,880 --> 02:02:41,280 might be family. Love or duty that he's working 2765 02:02:41,280 --> 02:02:42,880 on, that's. It's entirely possible that fits 2766 02:02:42,880 --> 02:02:45,720 here, we're just not sure. So it's one of the reasons Virus 2767 02:02:45,720 --> 02:02:47,840 is really special. George knows he's got a special 2768 02:02:47,840 --> 02:02:49,720 character. I think George is aware that he 2769 02:02:49,840 --> 02:02:54,120 he's created something unique with this character and I'm 2770 02:02:54,120 --> 02:02:57,640 looking forward to more. I'm looking forward to what else 2771 02:02:57,640 --> 02:02:59,760 we learn about him. I I want to say one quick thing, 2772 02:02:59,760 --> 02:03:01,960 because I don't. You made a million awesome 2773 02:03:01,960 --> 02:03:03,320 points. And I don't want to take away 2774 02:03:03,320 --> 02:03:06,600 from the idea that he's this theme of like, taking something 2775 02:03:06,600 --> 02:03:11,120 to sell it back. But Aries and Robert did plenty 2776 02:03:11,120 --> 02:03:13,080 to put the realm in turmoil. It can't. 2777 02:03:13,080 --> 02:03:16,240 Oh yeah, just plain varies. Oh yeah, it's not just him. 2778 02:03:16,720 --> 02:03:20,280 Once it starts to happen, he might feed those flames to put 2779 02:03:20,280 --> 02:03:21,880 himself in a better position. Afterwards. 2780 02:03:21,880 --> 02:03:24,080 It may be a parallel to Little Finger in certain ways too. 2781 02:03:24,080 --> 02:03:28,120 Kind of came from nothing and uses the the disorder and 2782 02:03:28,120 --> 02:03:32,800 secrets to move himself up. You know, yet another parallel. 2783 02:03:32,800 --> 02:03:36,560 I think it's interesting, but still just regular people. 2784 02:03:36,800 --> 02:03:39,600 It doesn't take manipulative monsters to screw the world up. 2785 02:03:40,640 --> 02:03:44,880 Yeah, well, I know it's. Just a a doofus, an arrogant 2786 02:03:44,920 --> 02:03:47,080 misogynist, you know? A doofus, you know? 2787 02:03:47,080 --> 02:03:51,000 And he's doing a fine job without any kind of menacing 2788 02:03:51,240 --> 02:03:53,880 background or secret plan or whatever, so. 2789 02:03:54,120 --> 02:03:56,680 Question from Wheezy squeezebox of the little bird can read and 2790 02:03:56,680 --> 02:03:57,600 write. What's the point of cutting out 2791 02:03:57,600 --> 02:03:59,440 their tongues? They are. 2792 02:03:59,440 --> 02:04:02,840 This is another reason why it's so devious and so insidious is 2793 02:04:02,840 --> 02:04:07,720 they don't read and write in the way the same way. 2794 02:04:07,720 --> 02:04:10,800 He taught them a cipher. He taught them a different 2795 02:04:10,800 --> 02:04:12,640 language. Like they don't communicate the 2796 02:04:12,640 --> 02:04:14,920 way normal people can. They can maybe copy what they 2797 02:04:14,920 --> 02:04:16,920 were they've seen, but they're they're they're trained to to 2798 02:04:16,920 --> 02:04:21,440 write it down or memorize it. Like visually and not 2799 02:04:21,440 --> 02:04:23,640 necessarily knowing what it means is kind of how I read it. 2800 02:04:23,640 --> 02:04:25,360 Like they they've learned a cipher like he's taught them. 2801 02:04:25,360 --> 02:04:29,040 Their a a secret language that he invented that probably keeps. 2802 02:04:29,040 --> 02:04:30,320 Them. OK, so maybe you're. 2803 02:04:30,320 --> 02:04:33,280 Keep them from communicating. They probably don't actually 2804 02:04:33,280 --> 02:04:37,080 like what I'm getting. Maybe they don't actually read 2805 02:04:37,120 --> 02:04:41,920 the words. They are able to like, recognize 2806 02:04:41,920 --> 02:04:46,120 the symbols, but they're not reading like, oh, the shipment 2807 02:04:46,120 --> 02:04:48,040 is going out, they. Don't know what it means 2808 02:04:48,040 --> 02:04:51,080 tomorrow. They're just seeing, like the 2809 02:04:51,080 --> 02:04:53,120 ship, like those words, and they communicate it. 2810 02:04:53,520 --> 02:04:57,440 Like they write really Egyptian hieroglyphics or Russian 2811 02:04:57,600 --> 02:05:00,000 alphabet, but I don't know what they mean when I write it out, 2812 02:05:00,000 --> 02:05:01,800 but I can see that. Yeah, and you might have a 2813 02:05:01,800 --> 02:05:04,240 cipher to where you can make every, You know, every time you 2814 02:05:04,240 --> 02:05:07,360 see an S, you make you draw a certain kind of scratch, right? 2815 02:05:07,640 --> 02:05:11,120 And like, they have that, so they can just copy it down in a 2816 02:05:11,120 --> 02:05:13,320 cipher, I guess. Yeah, Which makes it even worse 2817 02:05:13,320 --> 02:05:16,400 that he think they're not. He's not actually contributing 2818 02:05:16,400 --> 02:05:18,640 to the literacy of Westeros at all, like I thought. 2819 02:05:19,040 --> 02:05:22,400 It's also possible they can read or write like normal, but it 2820 02:05:22,400 --> 02:05:25,560 wouldn't be expected and it's a lot harder to slip up. 2821 02:05:25,560 --> 02:05:28,600 It's easy to accidentally say something out loud or be 2822 02:05:28,600 --> 02:05:32,200 overheard, but it's it's hard to accidentally. 2823 02:05:32,200 --> 02:05:34,040 And their children, they're not going to be maybe as careful as 2824 02:05:34,040 --> 02:05:36,200 it would be, but also he just. It doesn't keep them. 2825 02:05:36,480 --> 02:05:38,440 Doesn't employ them once they cease to be children. 2826 02:05:38,440 --> 02:05:39,800 So they're much more manipulatable. 2827 02:05:39,800 --> 02:05:41,720 And yeah, but he doesn't want to take chances. 2828 02:05:41,720 --> 02:05:43,160 Cuts their tongues out. There's no, there's no risk. 2829 02:05:43,160 --> 02:05:45,080 There's no risk later down the line. 2830 02:05:45,360 --> 02:05:46,120 Yeah. It's bad. 2831 02:05:46,320 --> 02:05:49,360 Like I I think that the the we have servants at Delirio's 2832 02:05:49,360 --> 02:05:51,080 mansion that refused to speak to Tyrion. 2833 02:05:51,080 --> 02:05:53,320 I wonder if those are retired little birds. 2834 02:05:53,520 --> 02:05:55,880 They can't speak to Tyrion. Yeah. 2835 02:05:56,040 --> 02:05:57,560 They have their tongues. It's entirely possible. 2836 02:05:57,760 --> 02:06:00,640 It's also possible he doesn't cut out everyone's tongue, just 2837 02:06:00,640 --> 02:06:03,440 certain people for certain roles or certain ages, you know? 2838 02:06:03,800 --> 02:06:06,160 I kind of doubt that because if he's worried about security, 2839 02:06:06,160 --> 02:06:07,680 then why? Why take that risk? 2840 02:06:07,760 --> 02:06:10,240 Well, because he might be worried about things other than 2841 02:06:10,240 --> 02:06:12,200 security, like spreading false information. 2842 02:06:12,200 --> 02:06:15,000 He might want people to say things out loud that are untrue 2843 02:06:15,000 --> 02:06:15,800 to. Well, I don't think he would 2844 02:06:15,800 --> 02:06:17,280 use. Children for that, but you 2845 02:06:17,280 --> 02:06:19,880 might. He has other agents that are not 2846 02:06:19,880 --> 02:06:22,840 little birds. His little birds always lose 2847 02:06:22,840 --> 02:06:24,680 their tongues. But yeah, he does have other 2848 02:06:24,680 --> 02:06:28,440 agents that that that can speak. With other tasks and other. 2849 02:06:28,720 --> 02:06:30,080 Yeah, that's what you're getting AT. 2850 02:06:30,080 --> 02:06:33,120 And I do think that's true. He can't only have one type of a 2851 02:06:33,120 --> 02:06:36,040 level of, I mean we see like, yeah, he he has people that work 2852 02:06:36,040 --> 02:06:39,280 for him that speak. And it's interesting to compare, 2853 02:06:39,280 --> 02:06:41,400 as we said at the beginning, I kind of introduced it this way 2854 02:06:41,400 --> 02:06:43,640 like Littlefinger has perilous to Virus obviously, but it's 2855 02:06:43,640 --> 02:06:46,160 he's he's in the conversation. But as we've shown throughout 2856 02:06:46,160 --> 02:06:49,880 this episode is Arya, Danny and even Ned have more be more 2857 02:06:49,880 --> 02:06:52,920 compelling, perilous to Virus, even if they're less like him 2858 02:06:52,920 --> 02:06:55,360 overall. As a whole, they have these 2859 02:06:55,880 --> 02:06:58,480 strong things in common. One of the reasons he wanted 2860 02:06:58,480 --> 02:07:02,000 young Aegon, young Griff to suffer and learn fear is so he 2861 02:07:02,000 --> 02:07:04,920 can know what that's like. Instead of being born with 2862 02:07:04,920 --> 02:07:06,920 everything right. He doesn't want him to have a 2863 02:07:06,920 --> 02:07:10,120 privileged upbringing. He himself had the value of 2864 02:07:10,120 --> 02:07:11,800 coming up from nothing and wants Aegon to. 2865 02:07:11,800 --> 02:07:14,760 Have seen all levels of society like that and that says I kind 2866 02:07:14,760 --> 02:07:16,120 of like that's. Not the worst thing. 2867 02:07:16,120 --> 02:07:18,320 That's kind of, I can see that. I kind of vibe with that. 2868 02:07:19,080 --> 02:07:22,720 He wanted that, you know? We wanted him to see things from 2869 02:07:22,720 --> 02:07:23,360 all levels. It's it. 2870 02:07:23,440 --> 02:07:26,080 Does seem to be a better idea than just having someone 2871 02:07:26,120 --> 02:07:28,400 completely only exposed to privilege. 2872 02:07:28,400 --> 02:07:30,760 Like it's that's all. That's another way of life that 2873 02:07:30,760 --> 02:07:34,520 one should experience to have a a comprehensive view on it, poor 2874 02:07:34,520 --> 02:07:35,720 and rich. Like if you want to be a good 2875 02:07:35,720 --> 02:07:37,600 ruler, you know you want to have an idea of what all those things 2876 02:07:37,600 --> 02:07:39,680 are like. He thinks that kind of 2877 02:07:39,680 --> 02:07:41,000 upbringing is important for a ruler. 2878 02:07:41,000 --> 02:07:43,880 I don't entirely disagree. I I agree with a lot of it, But 2879 02:07:43,880 --> 02:07:47,800 you can't just manufacture it, especially in the face of 2880 02:07:47,800 --> 02:07:50,600 someone who has genuinely lived that life for real, like he 2881 02:07:50,600 --> 02:07:54,440 probably did or Danny has. Danny actually has been chased. 2882 02:07:55,320 --> 02:07:57,840 The life that he's trying to manufacture for Aegon is one 2883 02:07:57,840 --> 02:08:00,320 that Danny has really had, and it's one of the biggest ironies. 2884 02:08:00,320 --> 02:08:03,440 And we return to Bloodraven as a parallel again, The virus is 2885 02:08:03,440 --> 02:08:05,600 trying to save Westeros and make it a better world. 2886 02:08:06,320 --> 02:08:08,320 He's been toying with the life of the person who's actually 2887 02:08:08,320 --> 02:08:10,040 best equipped to do that, which is Danny. 2888 02:08:10,080 --> 02:08:12,160 He he's used her as a the pawn. Oh, yeah. 2889 02:08:12,240 --> 02:08:13,680 This is what I was going to say before, Sean. 2890 02:08:14,720 --> 02:08:17,360 One of Arsenalero's biggest plans to destabilize the realm 2891 02:08:17,360 --> 02:08:18,760 didn't happen. Remember, they were going to 2892 02:08:18,760 --> 02:08:21,920 try. They were kind of Con Khal Drogo 2893 02:08:21,920 --> 02:08:23,800 into invading. That was their plan. 2894 02:08:23,920 --> 02:08:26,920 If that had worked, they'd absolutely be heavily. 2895 02:08:26,920 --> 02:08:29,720 Responsible for destroying the peace of prosperity of Westeros. 2896 02:08:29,720 --> 02:08:30,800 It just didn't. It just didn't. 2897 02:08:30,800 --> 02:08:33,600 Work. You know, it's it might, but 2898 02:08:33,600 --> 02:08:35,640 it'll be Danny. Leading them and not, you know, 2899 02:08:35,680 --> 02:08:37,960 the saris or some weirdo, someone who's incapable. 2900 02:08:38,160 --> 02:08:41,360 It seems a bit of an ambitious plan, even for Danny. 2901 02:08:41,360 --> 02:08:44,640 I'm suspicious of that coming. To fruition but or going well or 2902 02:08:44,720 --> 02:08:47,440 or whatever. Yeah, it's just still so the 2903 02:08:47,440 --> 02:08:50,200 changing slash evolution of virus and Lira's plan is 2904 02:08:50,200 --> 02:08:51,920 definitely outside of the scope of this episode. 2905 02:08:51,920 --> 02:08:54,320 But you know, it's a good way to kind of leave things here as 2906 02:08:54,320 --> 02:08:55,280 we're working our way to the end. 2907 02:08:55,720 --> 02:08:59,360 So not only would several characters never accept viruses 2908 02:08:59,360 --> 02:09:01,280 treatment of children. Again, Danny and Aria. 2909 02:09:01,280 --> 02:09:05,080 They're not parallels to him, but they are problems if he's 2910 02:09:05,080 --> 02:09:07,840 found out. And he's also missing the bigger 2911 02:09:07,840 --> 02:09:09,040 picture. As we've said, he's concerned 2912 02:09:09,040 --> 02:09:11,320 with saving Westeros from humanity or from itself. 2913 02:09:11,320 --> 02:09:14,280 But it's this inhuman element that threatens Westeros even 2914 02:09:14,280 --> 02:09:16,200 more, meaning the Others meaning the long night. 2915 02:09:16,960 --> 02:09:19,080 It's something I very much look forward to, like him. 2916 02:09:19,160 --> 02:09:21,240 Realizing, oh God, there's a bigger problem. 2917 02:09:21,240 --> 02:09:22,680 Will he? Will that ever even happen? 2918 02:09:22,680 --> 02:09:25,280 Maybe he'll die before that fully comes into play? 2919 02:09:25,440 --> 02:09:28,600 I don't think so, though I think having his reaction to that, all 2920 02:09:28,600 --> 02:09:30,960 his grand plans, so well executed. 2921 02:09:30,960 --> 02:09:34,400 So, so much. Discipline over so long to make 2922 02:09:34,400 --> 02:09:37,840 this work just. Supernatural Winter appears and 2923 02:09:37,840 --> 02:09:40,720 overtakes all that. The most well informed man. 2924 02:09:40,720 --> 02:09:42,960 The most devious man. But he hasn't seen this coming. 2925 02:09:43,080 --> 02:09:45,200 As you said Sean, I don't think he has any idea about this. 2926 02:09:45,520 --> 02:09:46,880 His He is a vast. Spy network. 2927 02:09:46,880 --> 02:09:48,600 But there's none of those Spies are beyond the Wall. 2928 02:09:49,240 --> 02:09:51,360 Why would he bother with that? Like, what does he care about 2929 02:09:51,360 --> 02:09:54,920 that from his perspective, It's What does he need to know that's 2930 02:09:54,920 --> 02:09:55,800 happening up there? What? 2931 02:09:55,800 --> 02:09:56,960 What? What value would that have to 2932 02:09:56,960 --> 02:09:57,880 him? You know? 2933 02:09:58,280 --> 02:10:00,280 Well, apparently some, but not from where he's sitting. 2934 02:10:00,280 --> 02:10:02,280 I wouldn't think so. Varus truly hates those who 2935 02:10:02,280 --> 02:10:04,440 practice the supernatural. That's another problem for him 2936 02:10:04,440 --> 02:10:06,360 too. The Others I don't know. 2937 02:10:06,360 --> 02:10:08,280 Those aren't. People, I mean, it's a problem 2938 02:10:08,280 --> 02:10:11,400 one way or the other. The Red Priests, I don't know 2939 02:10:11,400 --> 02:10:12,840 how that's going to go. I don't think he's going to be 2940 02:10:12,840 --> 02:10:14,960 too happy with that. Several other associated 2941 02:10:14,960 --> 02:10:16,360 element. Those are the stories getting 2942 02:10:16,360 --> 02:10:18,160 more magical virus. Sorry about that. 2943 02:10:18,160 --> 02:10:19,800 Higher magic elements are coming out. 2944 02:10:19,800 --> 02:10:22,080 I don't know if that's going to work for you, but it doesn't 2945 02:10:22,080 --> 02:10:23,800 exactly help us predict his reaction. 2946 02:10:23,800 --> 02:10:25,480 But we. We get a sense that he's not 2947 02:10:25,480 --> 02:10:28,280 going to be too pleased about his whole grand plan, maybe 2948 02:10:28,280 --> 02:10:31,760 crumbling in the face of overwhelming supernatural 2949 02:10:31,760 --> 02:10:35,000 elements and Dragons from both ends like we. 2950 02:10:35,000 --> 02:10:37,280 Got the all the winner and the Dragons these are. 2951 02:10:37,280 --> 02:10:39,560 Neither of these are working for me right now, but we'll see. 2952 02:10:39,560 --> 02:10:42,280 We shall see. I I think that another angle you 2953 02:10:42,280 --> 02:10:46,360 could take is it if he on some level has been affected to how 2954 02:10:46,360 --> 02:10:50,040 he was abused as a child, so wants to change the world for 2955 02:10:50,040 --> 02:10:52,720 that to not happen yet he's abusing children. 2956 02:10:52,880 --> 02:10:55,840 He hates magic because of how it was used against him as a child. 2957 02:10:55,840 --> 02:10:59,120 Well, maybe he'll start to use magic, you know, maybe you know 2958 02:10:59,120 --> 02:11:02,200 he. In many ways he's a means 2959 02:11:02,200 --> 02:11:05,120 justifies the ends, I think. And I think magic will fall 2960 02:11:05,120 --> 02:11:07,960 under that umbrella too, assuming he's even genuine about 2961 02:11:07,960 --> 02:11:09,240 not liking magic in the first place. 2962 02:11:09,240 --> 02:11:10,480 Right. Which is entirely he might not 2963 02:11:10,480 --> 02:11:12,680 give a crap, he might be like no, doesn't matter to me at all. 2964 02:11:13,840 --> 02:11:16,640 Yeah, I do it too. Yeah, and that's such a great 2965 02:11:16,720 --> 02:11:18,640 oncoming thing. Like Danny and Virus have not 2966 02:11:18,640 --> 02:11:22,560 met in in in the books yet. Obviously we saw what happened 2967 02:11:22,560 --> 02:11:23,840 on the show. It doesn't really give us a 2968 02:11:23,840 --> 02:11:25,640 whole lot of clue what I think is going to happen in the books. 2969 02:11:25,640 --> 02:11:27,760 Illyrio Also there's. Going to be things that happen 2970 02:11:27,760 --> 02:11:29,160 with him. We'll have cause to discuss a 2971 02:11:29,160 --> 02:11:31,440 lot more of these. Things from later in viruses 2972 02:11:31,440 --> 02:11:32,680 life. We'll be coming back to some of 2973 02:11:32,680 --> 02:11:34,120 these subtopics in different ways. 2974 02:11:34,120 --> 02:11:37,760 Of course it never ends. It's always fun stuff to talk 2975 02:11:37,760 --> 02:11:40,000 about. Virus is just one of the deeper 2976 02:11:40,000 --> 02:11:44,200 wells we can dip our. Cup into one that we certainly 2977 02:11:44,200 --> 02:11:47,000 couldn't do in one episode. Probably not even 2, depending 2978 02:11:47,000 --> 02:11:48,800 on how you look at it. The trivia answer for. 2979 02:11:48,800 --> 02:11:54,480 Today the question was again, which character in Song of Ice 2980 02:11:54,480 --> 02:11:59,400 and Fire is paralleled in Dune. On this episode, it's Hilario, 2981 02:11:59,400 --> 02:12:04,680 Mopatus and Baron Harkonnen. He has rings on all his fingers 2982 02:12:04,680 --> 02:12:07,000 with gems. He is unusually light on his 2983 02:12:07,000 --> 02:12:08,520 feet. In the books, he's he doesn't 2984 02:12:08,520 --> 02:12:11,680 float, he's light on his feet 'cause he's using suspensers, 2985 02:12:11,680 --> 02:12:13,920 they don't float to have him float entirely, they just have 2986 02:12:13,920 --> 02:12:16,640 him walk lighter. Illyrio is unusually light on 2987 02:12:16,640 --> 02:12:19,080 his feet. Also, Tyrion notices he's like, 2988 02:12:19,080 --> 02:12:20,960 wow, he's he's he's really big, but he's light on his feet. 2989 02:12:21,080 --> 02:12:24,280 And of course, there's a ton of parallels between what Illyrio 2990 02:12:24,440 --> 02:12:29,040 and Varus do and Baron Harkonnen's plan for his 2991 02:12:29,040 --> 02:12:32,240 children and inflicting them as rulers and people going out into 2992 02:12:32,240 --> 02:12:34,440 the desert and. This is why you should check out 2993 02:12:34,440 --> 02:12:37,000 our Dune episode with Alt Shift X. 2994 02:12:37,000 --> 02:12:40,440 This stuff is all in there and I think you'd enjoy it if you are 2995 02:12:40,440 --> 02:12:42,800 at all a Dune fan. Even if you've only seen the 2996 02:12:42,800 --> 02:12:45,800 movies and you'd still like it, you'd be surprised at how many. 2997 02:12:45,800 --> 02:12:48,680 Parallels there are between the two stories. 2998 02:12:49,320 --> 02:12:51,720 Yes indeed. I'm not going to tell you what 2999 02:12:51,720 --> 02:12:53,320 episode is next week. We're going to have that one be 3000 02:12:53,320 --> 02:12:54,880 a surprise again. But I will give you a few 3001 02:12:54,880 --> 02:12:57,320 suggestions on other episodes to listen to that relate to this 3002 02:12:57,320 --> 02:12:58,800 one. Valerie Reed, This is a good 3003 02:12:58,800 --> 02:13:00,800 place to start because virus just pops in and out all over 3004 02:13:00,800 --> 02:13:03,560 the place. But our Black Fire series has 3005 02:13:03,560 --> 02:13:06,880 some virus stuff in it because of this little bit more about 3006 02:13:06,880 --> 02:13:08,000 Illyria as well. Of course. 3007 02:13:08,000 --> 02:13:10,920 Of course an education episode is very relevant because it's 3008 02:13:10,920 --> 02:13:14,120 the same format as this one. The young Ned very different 3009 02:13:14,120 --> 02:13:18,080 person from varies but. Of course, an important 3010 02:13:18,080 --> 02:13:22,280 character whose upbringing was huge in forming the person he 3011 02:13:22,280 --> 02:13:25,760 became, just like it is for virus, even if those particular 3012 02:13:25,760 --> 02:13:27,200 formative elements were very different. 3013 02:13:27,640 --> 02:13:31,080 Of course it depends on how you see virus, what his plans are as 3014 02:13:31,080 --> 02:13:32,280 to. See maybe some of the other 3015 02:13:32,280 --> 02:13:36,840 connective episodes, like Valyrian stuff or not, but I 3016 02:13:36,840 --> 02:13:39,400 think that'll get you started. Yeah, that's our show for today, 3017 02:13:39,400 --> 02:13:42,040 folks. We'll be back next week and 3018 02:13:42,040 --> 02:13:45,360 we'll be delving deeper into a variety of other topics. 3019 02:13:45,360 --> 02:13:49,640 Should be a great 2024. We're in March now and we're 3020 02:13:49,640 --> 02:13:53,040 going to have ATV show this year and plenty more book content. 3021 02:13:53,360 --> 02:13:57,440 One quick note, the Oscars are later tonight, depending on when 3022 02:13:57,440 --> 02:14:01,000 you're watching this video, and each year I make a one minute 3023 02:14:01,000 --> 02:14:03,600 review of all the Best Picture nominees, so I'll have that out 3024 02:14:03,600 --> 02:14:05,480 in the next couple days too. Nice, yeah. 3025 02:14:05,480 --> 02:14:08,440 Sean's quick Oscar reviews are very nice. 3026 02:14:08,440 --> 02:14:09,240 Very, very. Useful. 3027 02:14:09,240 --> 02:14:12,040 Very knowledgeable about movies. Yeah, I like the style. 3028 02:14:12,040 --> 02:14:14,800 I like the format a lot. Me too. 3029 02:14:14,800 --> 02:14:16,600 So thanks everybody for coming in today. 3030 02:14:16,600 --> 02:14:18,520 If you watched live, we appreciate your presence in the 3031 02:14:18,520 --> 02:14:20,200 chat. A lot of great questions today. 3032 02:14:20,200 --> 02:14:22,720 Seemed like the chat was particularly bustling on this 3033 02:14:22,800 --> 02:14:26,680 particular Sunday, and if you're catching it later, feel free to 3034 02:14:26,680 --> 02:14:30,280 send questions to us in many of the what different ways you are 3035 02:14:30,280 --> 02:14:33,520 able to. Thanks to Nina for helping me 3036 02:14:33,520 --> 02:14:36,200 talk through a lot of aspects of virus's life here. 3037 02:14:36,200 --> 02:14:39,080 It's really good to have someone that can float these ideas off, 3038 02:14:39,080 --> 02:14:41,800 someone who knows the series extremely well, and someone 3039 02:14:41,800 --> 02:14:44,480 knows that knows the details extremely well and has a lot of 3040 02:14:44,480 --> 02:14:45,880 insight. That was very helpful here 3041 02:14:45,880 --> 02:14:47,120 because this is such a tough topic. 3042 02:14:47,480 --> 02:14:48,960 Very fun. But very but. 3043 02:14:48,960 --> 02:14:51,240 Very difficult, a lot lot harder than some of the world building 3044 02:14:51,240 --> 02:14:54,000 topics, but also more rewarding in some ways. 3045 02:14:54,560 --> 02:14:56,960 We also just got a super chat from April May. 3046 02:14:58,080 --> 02:14:59,440 Thanks you. Thank you all. 3047 02:14:59,440 --> 02:15:00,960 Great fun. Thanks April. 3048 02:15:00,960 --> 02:15:02,960 I loved all your commentary this episode. 3049 02:15:02,960 --> 02:15:05,080 It was it was nice. Yeah, that catch about the eyes 3050 02:15:05,080 --> 02:15:07,440 was cool, but I definitely missed that on my own, so. 3051 02:15:07,480 --> 02:15:09,120 Yeah. Absolutely happy to have you 3052 02:15:09,120 --> 02:15:10,000 with us. Yeah. 3053 02:15:10,560 --> 02:15:14,360 And thanks as well to Joey, Jesse and Bran for the various 3054 02:15:14,360 --> 02:15:18,000 assistance with music and video. And we'll be singing new House 3055 02:15:18,000 --> 02:15:20,080 the Dragon intro from Bran later in the year. 3056 02:15:20,080 --> 02:15:21,320 And Michael Clark Feld, of course. 3057 02:15:21,320 --> 02:15:22,760 Or he's got to shout him out, he. 3058 02:15:22,760 --> 02:15:24,760 Is. A great friend of ours and has 3059 02:15:24,800 --> 02:15:27,680 helped our show look a lot more professional with his maps that 3060 02:15:27,680 --> 02:15:31,360 you see behind me and the video intro that we have for our 3061 02:15:31,360 --> 02:15:33,760 regular episodes. Now you can go to claradocs.de 3062 02:15:33,920 --> 02:15:35,840 if you want to look at all of his maps. 3063 02:15:35,840 --> 02:15:38,440 Print them yourselves, order them from him, whatever you 3064 02:15:38,440 --> 02:15:40,320 prefer. It's really affordable to just 3065 02:15:40,320 --> 02:15:42,920 get the file and go print it though I highly recommend. 3066 02:15:42,920 --> 02:15:47,240 It KLARADO x.de is his website. Yeah, you can buy the files for 3067 02:15:47,240 --> 02:15:49,720 him and then take him to your local print shop and have them 3068 02:15:50,040 --> 02:15:53,320 printed a way that fits. Your wall size. 3069 02:15:53,320 --> 02:15:54,520 Or your frame that you already have. 3070 02:15:54,520 --> 02:15:57,560 Yeah, he has Lord of the Rings, Witcher, What? 3071 02:15:57,560 --> 02:15:59,080 Dungeons and Dragons. It's not just game with their 3072 02:15:59,080 --> 02:16:00,320 own stuff. Yeah, it's not just A Song of 3073 02:16:00,320 --> 02:16:03,160 Ice and Fire at all. And it's a variety of types of A 3074 02:16:03,160 --> 02:16:05,000 Song of Ice and Fire ones. He's got like one with the 3075 02:16:05,000 --> 02:16:08,360 Targaryen family tree on it. I can't say enough positive 3076 02:16:08,360 --> 02:16:10,240 things about Michael. Me neither. 3077 02:16:10,240 --> 02:16:12,760 But we'll keep saying them anyway, even though we'll never 3078 02:16:12,760 --> 02:16:15,200 run out. That's it for our show today, 3079 02:16:15,200 --> 02:16:18,080 everyone. And you know what to do in 3080 02:16:18,080 --> 02:16:23,960 between now and the next one. And always LR RE Redis.