1 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:52,040 Hello my fellow historians. Welcome to a special episode, A 2 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:56,280 Song of Ice and Fire and Dune with our good friend Alt Shift 3 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:58,080 X. This episode was originally 4 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:01,000 recorded over on his channel several months ago, but we put 5 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:03,800 up a nice cleaned up, edited version for y'all here on the 6 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:06,080 podcast feed because a lot of y'all probably missed it. 7 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:08,440 Or perhaps it's time for a re listen. 8 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:10,560 Enjoy. Today we're going to talk about 9 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:13,000 A Song of Ice and Fire, the Game of Thrones books. 10 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:18,720 In comparison to Dune, there's a lot of interesting similarities. 11 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:23,840 This stream was Aziz's idea. I've got a special guest today, 12 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:28,120 Aziz from History of Westeros. Thanks for coming on, Aziz. 13 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:31,280 Hey, thanks for having me. It's so much fun to talk about 14 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:32,680 Parallels. It's one of the things we do 15 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:35,080 over on my channel. Usually it's historical 16 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:39,200 parallels to A Song of Ice and Fire, or parallels within A Song 17 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:41,080 of Ice and Fire within the history of itself. 18 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:44,560 Yeah, it it's funny because like Dune and Game of Thrones are 19 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:48,200 both so famous and popular, but I think a lot, a lot of people 20 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:51,680 don't immediately see the similarities between them 21 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:54,320 because they are different in a lot of ways. 22 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:59,520 Like Dune is the science fiction series and it's got this sort of 23 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:03,200 dense philosophical tone to it, whereas you know, Game of 24 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:06,880 Thrones is the medieval fantasy. And so there are these 25 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:11,360 superficial differences to it. But I think the more you look 26 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:14,880 you you see how both series play with the same tropes and the 27 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:18,360 same archetypes in in really interesting ways. 28 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:21,280 So I'm excited to talk about all these similarities. 29 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:24,960 Yeah, it's going to be very deconstructive during meta and 30 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:27,240 we're going to have to constantly ask ourselves, is 31 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:32,120 this a trope that they both use? Is this a influence that they 32 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:34,920 both tapped into? Or is this genuinely something 33 00:02:34,920 --> 00:02:38,000 that George RR Martin borrowed or was influenced by directly 34 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:40,080 from Frank Herbert? And occasionally that's going to 35 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:42,920 be hard to determine or it might be a case of both. 36 00:02:42,920 --> 00:02:45,560 And of course we have to reckon for whether it's subconscious or 37 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:49,680 conscious, and we will never go to know that, but it'll be fun 38 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:52,360 regardless. Yeah, it's tricky to know for 39 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:55,160 sure, but fortunately you've done your research. 40 00:02:55,440 --> 00:03:00,400 So our first example is one that we actually do know that George 41 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:04,800 Martin did deliberately, in terms of similarities between 42 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:09,000 Ned Stark and later with Tradies from Dune, we have a. 43 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:12,840 Quote here that comes from an interview that he did, and this 44 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:16,200 is actually a translation because he did this interview, I 45 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:17,240 think. Was it Russian? 46 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:19,320 Yeah, it was Russian. And they were trying to ask him 47 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:22,520 about, of all things that very related to this, they were 48 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:25,760 asking him about Tolstoy influences on A Song of Ice and 49 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:27,960 Fire. And that's an important note 50 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:30,160 here, given what George says, which is art. 51 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:32,960 Edard Stark is a great example. I always understood that he was 52 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:35,120 not going through the finale of the first volume. 53 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:37,160 Here. The model for me was not 54 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:39,800 Tolstoy, but rather the science fiction Frank Herbert and his 55 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:41,600 Dune. Frank knew that the Duke of 56 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:43,880 Summer would die within the first part, after which the 57 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:46,000 reader's attention shifted to the fate of his son and 58 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:47,520 daughter. It went, it seems to me, a 59 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:50,480 little further than Herbert. Ned Stark held out much longer 60 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:52,680 and he is an important character, not a secondary one. 61 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:55,280 So the reader sees the world, including his eyes, talking 62 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:58,200 about the famous Martin POV point of view characters. 63 00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:02,680 The more impact the death has, of course, And so that's our 64 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:05,360 first major comparison. As you can see from the 65 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:09,240 thumbnail, perhaps Duke Leto and Ned Stark. 66 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:12,240 And the parallels here are just all over the place. 67 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:16,120 There's a ton of them, and some of them are also related to 68 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:20,640 plots related to him and not directly these two characters. 69 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:26,680 So this in particular is a very rich part of our set of 70 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:30,120 connections for sure. Yeah, 'cause they're both, like 71 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:36,640 held up as paragons of honor and morality at the same time as 72 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:41,040 being these like feudal Lords who rule over big chunks of 73 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:42,520 land. And they have this huge power 74 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:44,880 and they have this huge responsibility, and they're 75 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:48,000 presented as like a model of how to use power well. 76 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:51,000 And they are a father figure. You know, Ned is a beloved 77 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:55,080 father to John and Ayer and Sansa and Rob and all the 78 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:58,680 Starks, and later was a beloved father of Paul and A and a 79 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:04,160 beloved lover of their partner. Lato's Lady Jessica and Ned's 80 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:09,520 Lady Catelyn have like a really wholesome, loving relationship. 81 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:13,000 So they're sort of like the idealized father in both 82 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:15,400 stories, I think. That's well said and gets to the 83 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:19,240 point really well the they are that role within the story as 84 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:22,720 well which is part of this which is certainly we could call it 85 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:27,840 trope the father figure that dies kind of earlyish or I say 86 00:05:27,840 --> 00:05:30,680 ish because of Ned Stark. Casey, it's it's Fish. 87 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:34,560 He's still fairly early in the, in the scheme of what would be, 88 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:38,440 I guess, seven or eight books, but it doesn't feel that early 89 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:40,080 when you're reading it for the first time. 90 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:43,000 It's like, oh wow. Yeah, it's definitely like 91 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:46,520 rather does first act. It's like a first act death that 92 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:50,880 then spurs on the heroes like like the death of the father is 93 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:54,160 like the inciting incident. That's that that feeds the 94 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:56,640 conflict of of like the main story. 95 00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:57,920 Yeah. And I really like what you said, 96 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:01,960 too, about how they're both seen as good examples of power and 97 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:06,560 using power, and how that's a model that is hard to repeat, 98 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:10,040 especially when times become difficult and people are willing 99 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:12,160 to get really dirty and underhanded. 100 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:16,600 And that's when someone like Ned or Leto is a bit of fish out of 101 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:19,600 water, which is part of both of their stories. 102 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:24,680 Oh, it's almost literally true for of the Duke, because he's 103 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:26,280 comes from a water planet, right? 104 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:31,720 And he goes to a planet, so the fish out of Water Works pretty 105 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:33,720 well for him. But then you know Ned Stark, 106 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:36,960 he's obviously out of his depth when it comes to intrigue. 107 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:41,280 That's a plot line that comes up early and maintains itself for a 108 00:06:41,280 --> 00:06:43,160 long time. It's like he's not that good at 109 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:46,320 this. His intentions are very clearly 110 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:47,640 good. You can see that much. 111 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:50,720 But he's clearly getting fooled by people. 112 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:52,000 He's not making a lot of progress. 113 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:53,480 And then it just backfires on him. 114 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:55,920 He ends up in prison. Yeah, like, you can see the the 115 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:59,280 parallels there, Especially when the way they are both brought 116 00:06:59,280 --> 00:07:00,680 into it. I love this part. 117 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:03,520 They both knew it was bad. They both knew they were getting 118 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:06,360 into danger. Like, Ned has the moment where 119 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:09,080 he's trying to decide whether he should even go at all. 120 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:12,240 And he and Maester Lewin and Katlyn are debating it. 121 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:15,920 And you know, the show reverses the way the books do it. 122 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:20,600 Either way it's it ends up the same decision of yes I'll go and 123 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:23,080 it's the same with Leto like he then and one of the reason the 124 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:25,840 the the logic is that well we can't really refuse we have to 125 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:30,280 go or Robert will trust us or refusing is worse than going 126 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:33,080 even if going is dangerous. And it's very similar for Leto's 127 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:35,200 like, well, we have to, we have to accept this, you know, even 128 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:37,800 though we, even though we know it's a trap, we have to walk 129 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:39,960 into the trap and you know, survive it. 130 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:43,520 And even despite the wee fact that we're gonna, we're gonna 131 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:45,480 walk him into a trap, we're gonna be able to hopefully 132 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:47,680 that'll be enough to survive it and then we can come out ahead. 133 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:49,360 But of course that doesn't happen. 134 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:52,680 Yeah, yeah, it's it's striking how similar it is. 135 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:56,560 Like Lato is forced by the emperor to take control of 136 00:07:56,560 --> 00:08:01,440 Iraqis, and Ned is forced by the king to take control as Hand of 137 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:04,120 the King. Like like they both are are 138 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:07,880 chosen like that to take power and they both do it kind of 139 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:10,920 unwillingly. Lato is more willing than than 140 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:13,520 Ned is, I would say. And yeah, as you say, they both 141 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:16,280 know that this political situation is dangerous, but they 142 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:19,720 both go into it anyway and and they die for it. 143 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:23,720 And they both and they both are capable politicians, but like 144 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:27,960 not not devious enough. They both underestimate the 145 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:31,080 willingness of their political enemies to destroy them. 146 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:34,200 Because neither of them are soft, but they are not cunning. 147 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:37,400 Like they're both strong, authoritative, and willing to 148 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:39,520 make tough decisions. But they are not cunning. 149 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:41,640 They're not, and they don't see cunning as well. 150 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:46,480 Yeah I I I would definitely say though that I I think the Dune 151 00:08:46,560 --> 00:08:53,360 books show us a more sort of dark and conniving side to Lato 152 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:57,320 that a lot of the adaptations don't capture like it it we 153 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:01,960 cover this in like the real Dune video on Alt Shift X which talks 154 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:06,840 about how the Atrades really do a lot of like sneaky nasty 155 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:10,680 immoral stuff in terms of how they treat civilians and using 156 00:09:10,680 --> 00:09:15,080 propaganda and and their whole like plan to exploit the frame. 157 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:18,840 And so like there there is definitely like a, a darkness 158 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:23,080 and a you know, conniving nature to the Atrades. 159 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:24,960 But I. But I think there is also a bit 160 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:27,840 of a parallel to that with the Starks in A Song of Ice and Fire 161 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:29,640 as well. Because A Song of Ice and Fire, 162 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:34,520 like the Starks are presented as these great heroic good Lords 163 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:36,800 who everyone respects. And you know the Grand Order 164 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:39,360 conspiracy, everyone wants the Starks to come back. 165 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:43,320 But you know there there's hints of darkness to the Starks. 166 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:46,000 Like when you read the World of Ice and Fire world book. 167 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:48,840 And like the history section with the Starks is just. 168 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:53,400 And then the brutal kings of winter subjugated the March King 169 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:56,600 and took his daughters and then they subjugated the Barrow King. 170 00:09:56,600 --> 00:10:00,240 And then they sub like they were brutal warlords who took over 171 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:05,200 the north by conquering and and killing and and and taking the 172 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:09,200 daughters and forcibly marrying and like doing all these awful 173 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:10,760 things. That is how the Starks took the 174 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:12,320 north. And and there's also stories 175 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:15,560 like the Knights King, which is, you know, this mythical figure 176 00:10:15,560 --> 00:10:19,480 who made a deal with the White Walkers and Old Nan hints that 177 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:21,200 the Nights King might have been a Stark. 178 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:24,360 And if we want to get really tinfoil, I think it's a fun 179 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:27,360 theory that the Starks might literally have the blood of 180 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:30,640 White Walkers in them and that might be this lovecrofty and 181 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:32,920 secret. So, so, so I won't go on too 182 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:37,120 much, but I I think that A Song of Ice and Fire also has a sort 183 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:41,720 of hidden darkness to their supposedly noble, heroic family, 184 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:45,600 which I suspect might come to the fore in later books. 185 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:48,080 Those were really good examples, and there's maybe a few more, 186 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:51,160 like just the fact that Ned executes a Night's Watchman in 187 00:10:51,160 --> 00:10:54,560 the very first chapter after the prologue, right? 188 00:10:54,560 --> 00:10:59,080 That wasn't evil, but it was a mistake, I suppose. 189 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:01,840 At least not to listen to him. You know, maybe he had no choice 190 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:05,680 based on the laws, but it was definitely a good guy thing and 191 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:11,920 an odd way to present a heroic figure to start off, especially 192 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:14,640 given what we know about the Night's Watch and the fact that 193 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:16,600 that guy really did see a White Walker. 194 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:19,120 I mean, damn, like that was rough. 195 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:22,840 So you know, you you forgive it because of the circumstance and 196 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:25,480 the fact that Ned's ignorant of what that man really saw and the 197 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:29,480 fact that he's acting insane. But Bran asks the question like, 198 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:34,160 well, you know, he was afraid and was he insane and obviously 199 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:36,200 sets up a lot of the things you're talking about. 200 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:40,760 Fast forward to much later in the story when we learn that the 201 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:44,640 North itself the practice of worship of the Old Gods, which 202 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:46,440 has been led by the Starks included. 203 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:49,840 Yeah, yeah. Things like human sacrifice and 204 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:54,720 and first night and awful other traditions that are nowhere near 205 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:59,480 the province of good guys, yeah. Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. 206 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:01,720 And and also like, there's there's a lot we don't know 207 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:05,560 about Ned personally. Like, like we think we know a 208 00:12:05,560 --> 00:12:08,680 lot of what happened at the Tower of Joy and what happened 209 00:12:08,680 --> 00:12:12,600 at Starfall when Ned took the sword Dawn back to Starfall, and 210 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:15,600 then Ashara Dane killed herself. Like what? 211 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:17,480 What really happened with Ashara? 212 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:19,920 What really happened with Leanna and Rhaegar in the Tower of Joy? 213 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:25,240 Like, my point is that there could be bad things that Ned did 214 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:28,400 that we don't yet know about. So there's definitely more room 215 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:31,600 to sort of deepen and darken Ned's past. 216 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:32,880 Yeah. And yeah, like, as we were 217 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:35,200 talking about like the the history stuff, there's another 218 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:39,160 great parallel in that the stocks have ruled the North for 219 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:44,080 supposedly some like 8000 years or 6000 years, and there's a 220 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:47,480 similar number for how long the tradies have supposedly ruled 221 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:50,000 Caledan. Like, it's a ridiculously, 222 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:53,680 unrealistically long time that these dynasties have survived. 223 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:57,280 And I think the implication in in both is that the way that you 224 00:12:57,280 --> 00:13:02,480 survive as a ruler for thousands of years is by being 225 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:05,240 occasionally brutal. And your point is great about, 226 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:08,560 you know, we are introduced to Ned Stark chopping off a dude's 227 00:13:08,560 --> 00:13:10,720 head. And we see that through Bran's 228 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:13,320 perspective. And Bran feels has mixed 229 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:15,760 feelings about this. He's like, wow, I love my dad 230 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:19,880 because he's so kind and loving. But also, wow, my dad is a Lord 231 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:22,720 who cuts off people's heads like and. 232 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:26,160 And I think that Dune and Asung of Ice and Fire are making the 233 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:32,160 same point about power here in how power by its nature sort of 234 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:34,680 sort of corrupts people and forces people to make these 235 00:13:34,680 --> 00:13:38,520 really tough choices that are sometimes dehumanizing and 236 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:41,640 sometimes make us compromise our morals and sometimes force us to 237 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:44,320 do bad things. So Dune and Asung of Ice and 238 00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:48,480 Fire are both definitely about power and and how power effects 239 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:50,280 people. No matter what you do, you're 240 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:52,760 going to harm people when you're wielding power on that scale. 241 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:55,520 And that's part of the lens through which you have to view 242 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:58,240 these characters. And the ancestry is such a big 243 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:01,360 part of it. You're right that not only are 244 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:04,960 their fathers a big deal, but the grandfather figure is a big 245 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:08,680 deal for, you know, the old Duke, they call him, right in 246 00:14:08,680 --> 00:14:12,960 Dune that he's such an important figure, the way he's his bravery 247 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:15,800 and all these these examples he set and how well he's 248 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:18,200 remembered. Rickard Stark is a pretty 249 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:21,800 important figure for how things are set up in the Song of Ice 250 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:23,760 and Fire. You find out and of course his 251 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:27,400 death, the hands of Aries, and that's obviously really 252 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:29,040 important. But the things he was doing 253 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:32,680 before that, the Great S Rin's conspiracy, whatever parts of 254 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:34,920 that you believe, some of it were certainly happening to some 255 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:37,720 degree. So that's a pretty familiar as 256 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:39,320 well. Though those kind of intrigues 257 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:42,840 are always going to be part of any sort of political story. 258 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:47,200 High intrigue goes with royal families and dynasties and 259 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:50,240 bloodlines and and that's a feature of the world building 260 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:53,000 that's really similar despite the fact that one is taking 261 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:58,760 place in space and one is taking place very stubbornly, low, 262 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:01,240 aggressively, stubbornly low tech environment. 263 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:04,080 It stayed that way so long, yeah, Which interestingly I 264 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:06,240 think is is something that Dune uses as well. 265 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:09,960 And it's one of my favorite. The slight diversion here of 266 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:14,360 things about Dune and how he wrote it to avoid the technology 267 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:17,160 problem was to build in the whole Butlerian jihad, to 268 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:20,200 explain why certain technologies which must have seemed 269 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:23,920 inevitable in his in his time, which are, you know, kind of 270 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:26,240 happening in our time now. He wrote. 271 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:30,240 In Why those things aren't Part of the World and create a 272 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:32,800 compelling reason for why thinking machines don't exist. 273 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:37,240 And they're similar not as direct but undertones of 274 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:41,560 reducing technology or keeping things in a dark age or and or 275 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:45,360 magic having comings and goings on a grand scale. 276 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:48,680 In terms of how you know like the comet or how certain eras of 277 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:51,440 A Song of Ice and Fire seem to have magic seems to work better. 278 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:54,560 Age of Heroes versus like now being times where it seems to 279 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:56,440 work particularly well even if we don't know why. 280 00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:58,520 So yeah there's a lot of that and that's I think that's a a 281 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:01,480 part of the world building that like you said it's hard to 282 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:06,280 notice that because it's fantasy versus sci-fi even though one is 283 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:09,600 a you know Dune has a lot of fantasy elements to it I would 284 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:12,240 say, which is you know that's not a pejorative by any means. 285 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:16,000 I I love fantasy. So yeah. 286 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:19,640 Yeah, yeah. Both Westeros and the Dune 287 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:24,280 Imperium seem to be like technologically stagnant or even 288 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:28,600 going technologically backwards, and they both have in world law 289 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:32,720 reasons for that. Like Dune technology doesn't 290 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:35,800 progress because they've got this Butler and jihad banning 291 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:37,920 computers and A Song of Ice and Fire. 292 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:43,200 Westeros's technology doesn't develop, possibly because of the 293 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:46,200 Long Night, because the White Walkers keep turning up like the 294 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:50,160 Reapers in Mass Effect and wiping people out like it's not 295 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:52,160 confirmed. But some people speculate that 296 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:56,320 the White Walker Long Night might be a cycle that happens 297 00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:59,760 over and over and well and and I mean, I mean that's very 298 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:02,240 speculative. Another simpler explanation is 299 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:06,440 the irregular seasons, like when you have a winter that is 300 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:09,680 sometimes two years and sometimes 10 years and that 301 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:12,079 kills lots of people, that's going to set you back 302 00:17:12,079 --> 00:17:14,560 technologically. So like there are in universe 303 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:18,839 reasons why Westeros's technology is kind of stagnant 304 00:17:18,839 --> 00:17:22,040 and likewise with the Dune. Yeah, and what's cool about both 305 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:25,720 of them, and this is something that isn't really A1 borrowing 306 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:28,800 from the other so much as a really fun trope that's used in 307 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:32,880 both fantasy and sci-fi is the idea of powerful objects from 308 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:36,200 another time, or the powerful objects that are otherwise in a 309 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:39,880 lower tech environment. Dune has some incredibly high 310 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:44,320 tech things mixed in with you can't barely use like something 311 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:48,560 more than a calculator, right? Yeah, and like these incredible 312 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:53,320 personal energy Shields and other incredible technologies 313 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:56,360 like the still suit versus A Song of Ice and Fire, which is 314 00:17:56,360 --> 00:17:59,440 comparisons like Valyrian steel or glass candles. 315 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:01,440 These are of course, more explained by magic than 316 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:04,560 technology, but they have the same effect on the story in 317 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:10,440 terms of what what allows to be possible and the way people seek 318 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:13,840 after these items because of their value in that setting. 319 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:18,360 And in some cases they are extremely necessary. 320 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:25,280 You you must have them or else. And that's, yeah, there's, 321 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:27,160 there's even some some more examples in that. 322 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:27,960 I'm sure I'm missing. What? 323 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:29,880 What do you got? Well, I think one of the central 324 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:35,360 ones is in Dune. Nuclear weapons or atomics are 325 00:18:35,360 --> 00:18:40,000 like this crucially important weapon that they're they're all 326 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:42,960 these rules prohibiting the houses from using them. 327 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:47,440 And that is like one of the key, key forms of power in this 328 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:49,080 world. And that's really similar to the 329 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:51,640 Dragons in A Song of Ice on Fire, like George Martin has 330 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:54,080 compared the Dragons to nuclear weapons. 331 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:58,440 And the Dragons are also a power that is tightly controlled, and 332 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:02,240 only the Targaryens want to have power over them except for 333 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:03,920 certain events in the Dance of the Dragons. 334 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:06,720 So I think there's a big similarity there. 335 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:08,480 Is it something else? I wanted, like you mentioned 336 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:11,960 before, Rickard Stark, the father of Ned Stark being 337 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:14,440 similar to the old Duke, the father of Lato. 338 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:17,600 I I think like both of those characters are a great parallel 339 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:20,920 in how they die. Because the old Duke, father of 340 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:24,520 Lato, Paul's grandfather, famously died when he was 341 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:27,040 fighting a bull in the arena as a matador. 342 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:31,360 So the old Duke put himself in danger and put himself in the 343 00:19:31,360 --> 00:19:34,800 path of this dangerous monster and and died for it. 344 00:19:35,120 --> 00:19:38,160 And that's similar to I guess that's more similar to Brandon 345 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:43,080 Stark, Ned's brother, who went to King's Landing saying Oi 346 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:46,640 Rhaegar come out and die and Brandon went and faced the mad 347 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:48,400 King Aries. And then what happened? 348 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:50,960 Like Ricard. Ricard accepts the challenge. 349 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:53,400 He he says I'll fight you. Yeah, right. 350 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:55,040 I can fight one of the King's Guard, right? 351 00:19:55,040 --> 00:20:00,040 And then he's burned, of course. Yeah, so, so Ricard, like, like 352 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:02,680 the old Duke, went and faced the monstrous. 353 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:07,520 Ares and and it was a fight that he thought he could win but but 354 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:11,400 he died as a result of his you know confidence and his attempt 355 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:14,280 to win. So, so and and I guess that sort 356 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:17,120 of frames like the political conflict of the next generation, 357 00:20:17,120 --> 00:20:22,160 like like the grandfather of the hero boldly fought and died. 358 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:26,160 And so like the lesson to the to to the grandson, to the hero is, 359 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:28,320 well, maybe I need to be smarter about this. 360 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:32,000 Paul And and the Stark kids, they both sort of know that you 361 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:36,520 know, overconfidence and directness got their fathers and 362 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:39,280 grandfathers killed. So, like, you've got to be 363 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:41,280 smarter and more political to survive. 364 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:45,080 And then this brings up who the rivals are that are their main 365 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:46,720 danger to survival in the 1st place. 366 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:51,040 Which yeah, parallels between Lannister and Harkonnen are 367 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:55,200 pretty rich, including their vast wealth. 368 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:56,160 Heyo. Ha ha. 369 00:20:56,160 --> 00:21:00,960 You see what I did there? And they're absurdly wealthy, 370 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:04,880 both of them, and for the same time scale as applied to the 371 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:07,920 other houses in both settings. So Lannisters have been rich for 372 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:13,160 a crazy long time and Harkenins as well, so you know both of 373 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:15,400 them. Yeah, I I I like the idea 374 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:18,400 though, that like while the stocks and the Atrades are both 375 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:22,680 these very, very ancient houses of this special ancient 376 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:26,040 bloodline, the Lannisters and the Harkenins are more new 377 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:28,520 money. They are more recent powers 378 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:31,960 because the Lannisters like they Castley Rock is not their 379 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:34,760 ancestral seat. The Lannisters stole Castley 380 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:38,240 Rock from the Castellies land the clever right and and then 381 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:42,240 they started exploiting the gold mines so their new money who 382 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:45,120 used economic activity and trade to get rich. 383 00:21:45,360 --> 00:21:47,720 The Harkonnens are the same because the Harkonnens were like 384 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:51,760 cast down and exiled in the Battle of Koran, but then they 385 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:56,720 recently regained power through. I think the quote is adroit 386 00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:00,360 manipulation of the whale fur market or whatever. 387 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:03,960 That's of course, that's the thing that you get rich from, 388 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:06,800 because I of course, we all knew that whales had fur. 389 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:09,600 Oh, I'm wearing my whale fur cloak right now. 390 00:22:10,560 --> 00:22:12,960 So. So I think it's really 391 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:15,760 interesting that like, there's sort of this taint of there 392 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:19,920 being something kind of immoral about getting rich from trade as 393 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:24,280 opposed to just being an honor like a an ancient family like 394 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:27,640 the Starks and the tradies. The Lannisters and Harkonnens 395 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:30,760 both made money recently. They are new money. 396 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:35,000 They are the upstarts who are the rivals to the rightful old 397 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:38,120 dynastic family, which, yeah, I think it's really cool. 398 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:40,240 You know, we'll have to come back to one of these partial 399 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:42,240 comparisons because of course these aren't all one to one 400 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:44,920 comparisons. But think that the in terms of 401 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:49,440 actual characters, the best one to one comparison we have for 402 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:52,800 Harkonnen is coming later. So teaser for later in the 403 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,040 episode here. That's a huge one. 404 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:58,240 Especially because another thing I like about that is just how 405 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:02,200 the weight it's set up in terms of what they're up against. 406 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:05,480 You're up against in terms of when you're reading Game of 407 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:09,480 Thrones, and not necessarily later when the story expands and 408 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:12,320 you've got a lot more characters and a lot more houses. 409 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:15,600 But when you're focused on Stark and Lannister, you've got this 410 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:17,640 exact same thing. You're a character who's walking 411 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:20,480 into their territory, what they think is their territory, 412 00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:24,880 meaning the Red Keep or Oracus. Something that they've had that 413 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:28,160 there may be losing their grip on and want to get back. 414 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:33,960 And one of the things about being the Hand is that for a lot 415 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:39,880 of people it's an opportunity to wield power and wielded and 416 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:43,320 scrupulously you can make a lot of money at it And that's kind 417 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:45,880 of a similar thing here. It's not as direct as it is in 418 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:49,560 Dune where the spice is. This just obscenely valuable. 419 00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:53,680 Do everything, substance, that obviously control over that is 420 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:56,800 going to mean a lot, whereas even but even for someone like 421 00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:59,240 Leto who's not going to exploit that as much as someone like 422 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:02,240 Harkins would to just an extraordinary degree. 423 00:24:02,360 --> 00:24:05,720 The same thing is going to be true for Ned Stark where the 424 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:09,200 main thing he's given his political power and legal power, 425 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:14,440 executive power and he uses that to almost pick a fight with the 426 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:18,440 Lannisters anyway because of the small scale capture of Tyrion 427 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:22,160 and false blame placed on him for the attempted murder of 428 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:24,080 Bran. So that part is where things are 429 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:27,240 a little different because the the Dune, well, maybe you could 430 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:30,520 say that similar in Dune because didn't the Harkonnen Atrades 431 00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:35,000 feud start with some sort of military campaign snafu from 432 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:38,800 long ago that was kind of minor but resulted in a blood feud or 433 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:40,360 something like that? The Battle of. 434 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:46,000 Koran Harkonnen was exiled for cowardice after allegations by 435 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,160 an Atrades, and that's kind of all we know. 436 00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:52,960 OK, that might be sort of similar to how a relatively 437 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:56,960 small scale thing turns into a feud between 2 Great houses. 438 00:24:57,400 --> 00:24:58,920 Which by the way, something else I forgot to mention. 439 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:02,440 George has lamented not using the title Duke in A Song of Ice 440 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:06,200 and Fire because Lord and High Lord are just too similar and he 441 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:08,640 wants a way to distinguish between the you know that the 442 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:11,120 the Great Houses and just calling them Duke would have 443 00:25:11,120 --> 00:25:12,920 been one of the simple way to do that. 444 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,560 So that would have been a really obvious parallel to if he had 445 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:17,720 done that. I think Taiwan Lannister would 446 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:21,120 have made a great Baron. Yeah, throw a few 100 lbs on 447 00:25:21,120 --> 00:25:24,720 him. And yeah, as, as I think you 448 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:30,280 noted, the Harkonnens and the Lannisters, well, the enemies of 449 00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:34,280 the hero are similar. In the Princess Irulan, Karino 450 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:37,360 the the daughter of the villainous Emperor, has blonde 451 00:25:37,360 --> 00:25:41,680 hair and green eyes, like how the Lannisters, Jamie and Cersei 452 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,600 have blonde hair and green eyes. So, so I don't know. 453 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:48,040 I I think that one of you know, the commonality here is that the 454 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:51,960 bad guys are rich and the bad guys are beautiful, whereas the 455 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:57,520 good guys are these sort of noble, upright ancient families 456 00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:00,760 who are not as wealthy as well. The the books both make a point 457 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,440 that the Atrades are not one of the Super rich houses and the 458 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:08,000 stocks are one of the less rich great houses. 459 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,440 So yeah, strong parallels though, this. 460 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:13,120 Connects to the anecdote that I I wasn't sure about that you 461 00:26:13,120 --> 00:26:16,880 clarified regarding the the origin of their feud, which is 462 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:21,440 that the Starks are very well regarded as a military force or 463 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:23,360 their soldiers are highly regarded, etcetera. 464 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:26,840 And that was true for the Duke, the Tradies as well, just the 465 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:29,160 Tradies family in general. And that's something that the 466 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,680 Emperor I suppose, and maybe the Harkins as well are jealous of 467 00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:36,320 is his reputation because you know, they, they're petty like 468 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:39,800 that. And I think that was some extent 469 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:43,120 that's going to be true. Or some of the relationships 470 00:26:43,120 --> 00:26:46,480 within long of Ice and Fire, maybe some of them Stark and 471 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:48,720 Lannister, they're not as direct, I suppose, but they 472 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,520 become that way as the feud develops early on and do. 473 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:53,920 And I suppose that feud has existed already for a long time. 474 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:57,640 Yeah, and and there's definitely that idea in both stories that 475 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:01,160 you know that the honorable Lato and the honorable Ned are 476 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:04,600 destroyed early on by the conniving enemies, but the 477 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:09,680 legacy of the heroic honorable Lato and Ned lives on. 478 00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:13,720 So like in Dune, there's the there's the skull Shrine of Lato 479 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:17,760 that becomes this important lasting symbol of the Atrades. 480 00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:22,400 And you know Ned Stark's bones like Lato Skull Ned's bones 481 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:26,200 become this plot point in the books where where the bones are 482 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,920 returning to Winterfell and and that's important and and the 483 00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:31,840 bones represent the the legacy of these characters. 484 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,760 They may have been defeated, but their ideals live on and 485 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:39,040 continue to inspire people. And you know that the whole 486 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:43,440 grand Northern conspiracy plotline shows how the people of 487 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,520 the North still want the stocks in Winterfell. 488 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:50,120 Similar to how you know, Lato's legacy and the Atreides legacy 489 00:27:50,120 --> 00:27:54,800 is part of what Paul evokes. So they both they both last and 490 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,240 certainly like the protagonists compare themselves to their 491 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:00,480 fathers. And there's always this question 492 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:04,400 of like, can I live up to my father's ideals while also not 493 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:06,880 being defeated as my father was? So. 494 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:09,120 Yeah, that's great. Yeah, there's a lot of that in 495 00:28:09,120 --> 00:28:12,000 the Song of Ice and Fire, but sticking just to this family, 496 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:15,400 it's pretty big because we're seeing, and obviously it's not 497 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,720 played out fully, even though he's been dead for a while. 498 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:21,920 The legacy of Tywin Lannister is pretty bad, right. 499 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,280 There's just all these things are going wrong because he made 500 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:25,640 so many enemies. He did. 501 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:27,800 He was so ruthless and mistreated so many people 502 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,360 including his own family. But they're not living by his 503 00:28:30,360 --> 00:28:32,600 values. People aren't still remembering 504 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:36,400 him the way they do Ned Stark. They're like oh now there's an 505 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:38,720 opening he that he's now that he's dead. 506 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:42,000 You know it's it's a different sort of it's opportunistic. 507 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:45,320 Now that Tywin's gone we have the banisters a week rather than 508 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:48,840 oh, Ned is gone. Let's help save his daughter 509 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,000 right. That's a very big difference, 510 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:53,960 yeah. Quick one that I had forgot to 511 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:56,120 mention earlier, That's a really neat quote. 512 00:28:56,120 --> 00:29:00,240 Is faint within a faint within a faint is a line from Dune and 513 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:02,160 wheels within wheels within wheels. 514 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:07,200 It comes up a couple times in Ned's arc, so I love that. 515 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:08,520 It's just that's a pretty clear one. 516 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:10,800 I don't think that one's intentional, but because it's so 517 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:14,040 subtle. But maybe it is because it's so 518 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:16,440 similar. But yeah, I guess we'll probably 519 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:17,520 never know. Yeah, yeah. 520 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,640 Both stories are very sort of like self consciously about 521 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:23,680 intricate political plots. And yeah, using that same little 522 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:25,960 pattern is a fun way to highlight that. 523 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:28,800 Thanks for the Super Chats, by the way. 524 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:34,000 Gonna, in a Super chat, points out that just as the stocks 525 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:38,920 moved from a cold climate into a warmer climate, the Atrades 526 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:44,480 moved from a cooler climate on Caledan to the hot climate on 527 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:48,440 Iraqis, Which is cool. And thanks Maura, who says show 528 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:50,120 of support. Thanks for all the great 529 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,440 content. And thanks, Super Rad. 530 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:54,440 Who says Paula Tradies is Azora High? 531 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:58,120 We'll get to that. Good segue point here is the way 532 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:02,440 that their ending happens for both of them, which is when Ned 533 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:04,640 Stark basically has no choice left. 534 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:08,000 He's in prison, he's dying, and he is as effectively willing to 535 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:09,880 throw his life away until his daughter is threatened. 536 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:14,200 Virus comes to him and gives him a chance to do that. 537 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:19,720 Help his family, make his death count for something and virus 538 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:22,960 that's also advancing his goals. It's something that will that 539 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,920 Ned will want to do and on the other side in Dune we have 540 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:32,040 Doctor Huey who also is not necessarily isn't a loyal person 541 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,480 like or is a loyal person not unlike virus, but was 542 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:38,680 nevertheless trusted with some important things and is you is 543 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:40,880 forced into what he's doing because of a threat to his own 544 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:43,120 family. But nevertheless, he's doing a 545 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:48,320 similar thing here where he's helping someone else get revenge 546 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:52,200 as part of their death, right? Helping, which is kind of part 547 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:55,080 of that legacy thing we were talking about as like a striking 548 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:57,280 from beyond the grave kind of thing that they both have in 549 00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:01,000 common as they fade stayed exit stage left. 550 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,200 Yeah, yeah. So, like Varys convinces Ned to 551 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:08,400 falsely confess to treason in order to protect his kids, 552 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:15,640 protect Sansa and Yui convinces Lato to use the poison tooth to 553 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:19,040 try and kill Vladimir. So yeah, in their darkest hour, 554 00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:20,680 they both. Protect his wife too. 555 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:23,520 Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah. 556 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:27,200 So they so they both sort of die in a way that sort of besmirches 557 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:29,760 their own honor. And they both are visited by a 558 00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:33,480 schemer who sort of gives them a chance to make their death mean 559 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:35,560 something. So yeah, huge parallels, though. 560 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:39,840 So how about we move on to some of like the political background 561 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:43,720 is really similar in both stories because both worlds have 562 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:47,640 this foundational political balance where there's the 563 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:53,320 Supreme King on the Iron Throne or there's in Dune, there's the 564 00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:57,120 Emperor on the Lion Throne, the throne is called the Lion 565 00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:00,240 Throne. In Dune, Iron Throne fire. 566 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:01,720 Don't tell me that's a coincidence. 567 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:08,280 And and one of the sort of fundamental plot points is that 568 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:13,480 in Dune, Empress Shaddam doesn't trust and is jealous of Lato 569 00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:19,200 Atrades power, which is similar to how King Aries Targaryen in 570 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,600 in the back story of Game of Thrones was mistrustful and 571 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:27,080 jealous of everybody, his son Prince Rhaegar and his hand 572 00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:29,360 Tywin. And that's part of what sparked 573 00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:31,120 the conflict of Robert's Rebellion. 574 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:37,240 And in Dune, we have Lands Rod, which is basically an alliance 575 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,120 of the Great Houses, which they're a check against the 576 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:43,160 power of the Emperor. If the Emperor gets out of line, 577 00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:46,520 they'll all gang up, and together they're stronger than 578 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:47,840 he is. And it's a way to prevent 579 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:50,000 tyranny. It's a way to, it's some 580 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,200 balance. And that's sort of what was 581 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:57,680 lacking in Westeros. The Targaryens didn't have that 582 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:01,600 check for a long time, but Fast forward to the time of Aries. 583 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:04,600 And they lost that check because they don't have Dragons anymore. 584 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:07,000 But it it had been some time since they had lost Dragons, but 585 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:08,680 no one had really challenged them. 586 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:12,000 Except for challenges within their own family, if we count 587 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,120 things like the black fires. But that's again a cadet branch 588 00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:19,120 of their own, so outside threats didn't really happen until 589 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,960 something that was very recent. Within the time frame of the 590 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:26,800 Song of Ice and Fire, Robert's Rebellion is mentioned 591 00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:28,920 constantly early on in the Game of Thrones. 592 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:32,040 It's a huge part of the framing for the story and the setting. 593 00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:36,280 The Lands Rod is basically the Great Houses, and what we see at 594 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:41,080 the beginning of Robert's Rebellion is Aries pushing too 595 00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:46,960 hard against the implied feudal vassal relationship, which is 596 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:51,160 that, hey, I'm your king, but if something goes wrong and there's 597 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:55,000 an outside threat, I'll organize everything and get everyone 598 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:58,680 together and stop that threat. And in the meantime, you pay me 599 00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:01,120 taxes and bend the knee and all that. 600 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:07,960 But if you just murder me out of hand without any fair justice 601 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,280 behind that, well, that's not OK. 602 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:13,280 And in Dune there's a system against that. 603 00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:16,360 They've been around long enough to have fixed that sort of 604 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:19,040 thing. That system doesn't exist in A 605 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:25,800 Song of Ice and Fire, but it was what people like Rickard and 606 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:29,360 Hoster Tully were trying to create. 607 00:34:29,679 --> 00:34:33,080 They were trying to create more of a check on the royal house. 608 00:34:33,199 --> 00:34:39,639 That's the basic idea of the South Ron conspiracy, which is a 609 00:34:39,639 --> 00:34:42,360 series of marriages and alliances that would keep Aries 610 00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:46,960 from doing anything too much. Or the royal house going, you 611 00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:50,080 know, thinking beyond Aries once he's eventually gone and Rhaegar 612 00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:54,199 was basically behind that. And of course, that's kind of 613 00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:57,000 what's too bad about the fact that it came to war and Robert 614 00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:00,440 killed Rhaegar, because Rhaegar would have probably been a 615 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:03,200 reasonable one to work with. But as it turned out, Aries 616 00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:06,160 ignited all that and the story went the way it did. 617 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,680 And that's very similar to what happens in Dune, except that 618 00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:13,840 it's happening during the story instead of maybe 15 years prior. 619 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:17,360 So obviously there's going to be some differences here and there 620 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:21,160 between these parallels and how they're used within the story, 621 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:24,800 but that's pretty cool to see these parallels. 622 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:28,360 Yeah. I wanted to add with that idea 623 00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:31,400 of like the the Southern ambitions Great houses and 624 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:35,720 Rhaegar all plotting to get together and to put checks to 625 00:35:35,720 --> 00:35:38,840 reduce Aries's power. Like that line that Rhaegar has 626 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,080 before he goes into battle that Jamie remembers where it's like 627 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:45,440 A council will be called, changes will be made. 628 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:49,520 That was that was Rhaegar's attempt to try and change 629 00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:51,480 things. And I think it's really similar 630 00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:56,000 to how Paul I think it's Paul talks about the lands read you 631 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:59,640 know we need AI could bring evidence to the lands read that 632 00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:05,000 Emperor Shedam tried to destroy the Atrades with Sadaka and when 633 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:08,800 we sort of present that to the lands Read council then we'll be 634 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:12,680 able to reduce shadams power Like that's a very very similar 635 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:16,320 idea that and in both cases it doesn't work it doesn't happen 636 00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:21,320 that the houses don't get together to stop Shaddam it's 637 00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:24,840 it's Pauls doing and the Fremans doing and Ragar and the Southern 638 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:28,640 ambitions alliance fails to put checks on Aries so so there's a 639 00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:31,840 there's a failure of like sort of political due process that 640 00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:35,120 causes the heroes to have to go and solve the problems instead. 641 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:37,800 And then almost a similar thing happens with Ned's arc as well, 642 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:41,600 where he's trying to create or gather enough evidence to 643 00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:46,000 present to Robert, but it all becomes irrelevant because 644 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:49,720 Robert just dies and it's sketchy whether Robert would 645 00:36:49,720 --> 00:36:52,320 have or Robert would have done about it as well. 646 00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:57,200 Though yeah, it's neat how this is a almost a diversionary 647 00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:03,160 tactic than these storylines that both authors like to use. 648 00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:05,440 Rather than just engaging in more straightforward tropes, 649 00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:08,840 they sort of set it up one way and then kind of take a right 650 00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:10,960 turn. Maybe it may be a second right 651 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:13,000 turn after that. I I think there's a sense in 652 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:17,000 both stories that like you know they both of these medieval ish, 653 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:23,520 feudal ish political systems and they both fail to stop their 654 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:27,400 tyrannical leaders. King Aries, Emperor Saddam. 655 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:32,160 Both feudal systems are failing. And so like there's there's a 656 00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:36,040 sense in both stories that we need to change this system. 657 00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:40,400 Like we need to dramatically change this monarchical feudal 658 00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:43,200 system because it's it's creating injustice and it's 659 00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:46,880 creating horrors. And so a a big part of what the 660 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:50,280 June series is about is is exploring different political 661 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:54,840 systems and and changing things to make a a better universe. 662 00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:59,520 And I'm really curious about what A Song of Ice and Fire will 663 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:01,080 do. Like it's interesting that at 664 00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:04,760 the end of the Game of Thrones TV show we have King Bran in 665 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:07,560 charge of Westeros and the show never really explores what that 666 00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:11,200 means or like why? Why is it a good thing for King 667 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:13,960 Bran to be in charge. But I think that, you know, we 668 00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:18,680 anticipate that if it is that Bran becomes king in the yet to 669 00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:22,280 be published Game of Thrones books, I think it'll explore 670 00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:27,120 like you know how King Bran will be a different political system 671 00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:31,920 and how it will be better to avoid the horrors of the past. 672 00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:35,720 But I we can talk more about King Bran and Dune a bit later 673 00:38:35,720 --> 00:38:38,560 on at at the moment we're doing like no spoilers or light 674 00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:40,680 spoilers for Dune in this live stream. 675 00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:43,480 But later on in the live stream, we will talk more about 676 00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:46,160 spoilers, and we'll warn you when we do talk about any big 677 00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:49,720 spoilers for Dune. Yes, the God Emperor of Westeros 678 00:38:49,720 --> 00:38:51,200 is coming later. That's right. 679 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:53,720 Shall we talk about Jessica and Callum? 680 00:38:53,720 --> 00:38:57,400 We should indeed, because they are another good set of related 681 00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:01,200 parallels, starting with just some obvious physical features, 682 00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:05,880 like they're both redheads and they're the wife or concubine in 683 00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:09,320 Jessica's case, but it's very functionally very similar of 684 00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:13,280 this doomed father figure type. And Catelyn is a doomed mother 685 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:15,000 figure. Jessica, not so much. 686 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:16,880 It's not not really the same in that sense. 687 00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:20,440 So that's a that's a divergent, which is nice to see as well. 688 00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:26,160 And they're both someone that had to really adjust to a new 689 00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:32,160 living situation, right? They are not from the place that 690 00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:33,800 they have to settle and have children. 691 00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:38,000 Catelyn's not from the north, Jessica's not from Caladan, and 692 00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:41,560 that parallels within each other the stories that we just set up. 693 00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:46,280 Whereas Ned goes into a very unfamiliar situation to be hand 694 00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:50,880 to the King and Duke, Leto goes into a very similar situation 695 00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:54,640 going from Caladan to Arakas, which is very unfamiliar both in 696 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:56,520 terms of, well, in terms of everything. 697 00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:00,320 It's just really unfamiliar geographically, politically, 698 00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:03,800 and, and you know all that. Yeah, I think it's interesting 699 00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:08,760 that, you know, while Ned Stark and later Atrades are sort of 700 00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:13,320 the idealized father, where like the children have nothing but 701 00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:17,240 love and respect for their father in both Junior and Song 702 00:40:17,240 --> 00:40:21,720 of Ice and Fire, the the mother, you know, Catelyn and Jessica 703 00:40:21,720 --> 00:40:25,560 are not as idealized. And I think they have more 704 00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:28,880 complicated relationships with some of their children. 705 00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:31,160 I mean, John especially obviously has a really 706 00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:34,560 complicated relationship with Catelyn, who is not his mother 707 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:38,760 and who rejects him even like Aya I think has, you know, a a a 708 00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:42,200 somewhat more difficult relationship with with Caitlin. 709 00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:44,520 I I mean, there are certain revelations about Jessica and 710 00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:47,480 Dune that complicate her relationship with Paul as well. 711 00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:50,280 Yeah, yeah, but. But but I think it's interesting 712 00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,600 that like it it's definitely AI think it's a more complicated 713 00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:57,960 and a more layered relationship with the mother as opposed to 714 00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:02,560 the father, Ned and Leito, who are who are idolized by their 715 00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:07,320 children. Yeah, and that's true. 716 00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:09,760 There's, it is more complicated and I think the fact that 717 00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:12,920 there's also more children in the Song of Ice and Fire setting 718 00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:15,720 complicates it as well because they do have varying 719 00:41:15,720 --> 00:41:17,480 relationships. I mean, you use John as an 720 00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:20,400 example. That's obviously a stark example 721 00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:22,320 and because of the relationship with Catelyn. 722 00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:25,040 But then there's the more straightforward examples like 723 00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:29,040 Rob. And then there's Aria, who 724 00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:32,200 arguably has a better relationship with Ned than with 725 00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:35,680 Catelyn and and Sansa, who is probably the reverse of that, 726 00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:39,080 because Paul is obviously not the only child, but kind of 727 00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:41,480 effectively the only child in the first book. 728 00:41:41,640 --> 00:41:44,480 And that's a big deal and changes, especially in in a 729 00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:47,360 power dynamic like they have with with airs and and 730 00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:50,600 bloodlines and all that. A similarity is that both 731 00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:54,920 Jessica and Catelyn are very much motivated by wanting to 732 00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:57,920 protect their children, but at the same time wanting to advance 733 00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:01,480 their children politically. Jessica, you know more so than 734 00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:03,480 in the movies. Jessica in the books very much 735 00:42:03,720 --> 00:42:07,760 wants Paul to be restored to the leadership of House of Tradies 736 00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:11,080 and to be politically powerful. And and Catelyn Catelynn in the 737 00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:15,200 books, more than in the TV show, wants her children, wants Rob to 738 00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:20,040 be the Lord, to be restored to ruling their homeland. 739 00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:23,520 They're both politically ambitious and like it. 740 00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:27,360 It very much explores how there's a tension between 741 00:42:27,720 --> 00:42:31,360 wanting to love and protect your children, but also wanting them 742 00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:34,080 to have political power because of course having political power 743 00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:37,200 is dangerous. So you know, if you if you love 744 00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:41,320 your children, should you want them to be Lords and kings? 745 00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:44,160 Because that's dangerous. And that's a tension that I I 746 00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:46,760 think both of these stories explore. 747 00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:51,200 And that is the heart of one of the most direct, detailed 748 00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:54,000 parallels I think we might have between these two characters, 749 00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:57,200 which is the core plot for both of them. 750 00:42:57,200 --> 00:43:00,480 Very early on is Catelyn trying to figure out who killed Bran, 751 00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:03,560 and Jessica trying to figure out how Paul was almost killed. 752 00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:06,520 Plus there's a Chris knife and a dagger with a dragon bone hilt, 753 00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:09,840 which is of Lyrian steel, and these are both key parts of 754 00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:12,960 that. And you have a secret message 755 00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:17,200 from Margot Fenring, at least in the book version, with a secret 756 00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:20,920 code written that only in a in a way that only Jessica can 757 00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:23,760 understand because she's been a Jesserite and there's a warning 758 00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:28,320 about the Harkinins. Meanwhile, Lysa, in a language 759 00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:32,640 that only Catelyn can understand, warns her about the 760 00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:35,880 Lannisters. Now this is a false warning, but 761 00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:39,120 still it's the same kind of thing where it's an early plot 762 00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:42,600 point where they get this message that steers their 763 00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:47,320 actions in a very direct and important way and it's related 764 00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:52,080 to threats on not just them but their children specifically and 765 00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:54,240 sad advancement or lack thereof that you mentioned. 766 00:43:54,240 --> 00:43:57,120 So that, yeah, it's really, really huge similarity there, 767 00:43:57,120 --> 00:43:59,840 even though there's those plots have huge differences as well. 768 00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:03,480 These similarities are like, Oh yeah, that's yeah, I see that 769 00:44:03,720 --> 00:44:06,960 once you see them anyway. Yeah, yeah, they they both 770 00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:10,320 investigate the attempted murder murder of their son. 771 00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:14,000 They both have a special knife as a key piece of evidence. 772 00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:17,440 They both get a warning from a woman in a coded message. 773 00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:22,160 I I mean, surely George had Dude in mind when he wrote this and 774 00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:26,560 and you know, you know that Lyce's warning to Catelyn is a 775 00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:33,200 political ploy from Littlefinger trying to manipulate Catelyn 776 00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:35,480 because Littlefinger is trying to turn the stalks and the 777 00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:37,080 Lannisters against each other. But. 778 00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:40,440 But I think in a similar way we can question Margot Fenrings 779 00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:44,640 motivations when she sends that coded message to Jessica in the 780 00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:47,240 June book. Because you know, we know that 781 00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:50,960 the Fenrings are connected to the Emperor Saddam and we know 782 00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:54,480 that the Fenrings are working with the bend a Jesuit and and 783 00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:58,800 Jessica's goals are not entirely aligned with the bend a Jesuit. 784 00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:02,360 So I I think that the complicated relationship between 785 00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:05,480 Catlin and Lysa is similar to the complicated relationship 786 00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:10,320 between Jessica and the Bend, a Jesuit and Margot for sure. 787 00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:11,040 Right on. Yeah. 788 00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:13,120 I guess I didn't catch that part, but now that you lay it 789 00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:16,040 out, I'm like, Oh yeah, OK. Yeah, there's definitely like, 790 00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:19,400 like deeper, more complicated politics and like factional 791 00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:21,320 issues with Jessica than with Catelyn. 792 00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:23,560 But we've always got to remember that, you know, Catelyn is not 793 00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:27,240 born a Stark, Catelyn is a Tully, and Catelyn is connected 794 00:45:27,240 --> 00:45:29,880 to the Aaron's through her sister. 795 00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:34,120 And so, you know, Catelyn has these political and cultural and 796 00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:38,080 religious differences from Ned and the Starks which which 797 00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:40,520 complicate her relationship with her partner. 798 00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:42,120 Yeah, and they were. Both of their marriages were 799 00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:46,480 very directly related to the plotting. 800 00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:49,960 Of. Prior generations Catelyn's 801 00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:53,720 marriage to not just Ned but was originally going to be Brandon 802 00:45:53,720 --> 00:45:56,280 star because that marriage was so important that they passed it 803 00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:59,520 down to the next son. And similarly, Jessica's 804 00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:04,360 marriage to Duke Leto was a lot of people had an interest in 805 00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:06,320 that but particularly I guess they've been a jester most of 806 00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:07,920 all right. Would that be accurate to to 807 00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:11,280 say? Yeah, yeah, I mean the, yeah, 808 00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:15,240 that that marriage of, well, not marriage, but that partnership 809 00:46:15,240 --> 00:46:18,560 of Jessica and Lato is part of the Ben, a Jezera breeding 810 00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:20,960 program to try and create the quiz at Sadarac. 811 00:46:21,240 --> 00:46:24,400 So it's really cool that that both Jessica and Lato's 812 00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:27,800 relationship and Catelyn and Ned's relationship, they are 813 00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:32,240 both relationships that started for political reasons, but they 814 00:46:32,240 --> 00:46:36,440 both blossomed into true love, which is really lovely. 815 00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:39,840 And people say these stories are grim, dark, you know, but and I 816 00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:42,320 guess they, these, these characters did have bad endings, 817 00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:44,880 but they got to have nice long lives, at least partially. 818 00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:46,360 They got to have some time in the sun. 819 00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:49,400 Yeah. Oh yeah, sort of. 820 00:46:50,720 --> 00:46:52,800 Yeah, well, yeah. It's important that like the the 821 00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:56,440 hero protagonist characters get to see this model of like 822 00:46:56,440 --> 00:47:01,120 idealized true love in their parents before it is lost. 823 00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:04,760 So in the same way that the heroes like Paul and Jon Snow, 824 00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:08,720 that they they ask themselves, you know, can I be as honorable 825 00:47:08,720 --> 00:47:12,560 as my father, they also ask themselves, can I have a true 826 00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:17,000 love like my, like, you know, Ned had with Caitlin and like 827 00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:22,600 Jessica had with later, like it. It establishes those ideals of 828 00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:26,560 love and heroism for the protagonist to strive for and 829 00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:30,280 struggle for, as the story goes. On and George likes to invert 830 00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:33,480 that where we also have a character, Tyrion, Jamie and 831 00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:35,960 Cersei too, they're showing us the opposite showing. 832 00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:38,880 Us the Mirror. That by their leg, they're 833 00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:41,800 constantly thinking about their father and it's not a good 834 00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:44,960 thing. It's usually, it's like, oh, it 835 00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:47,680 makes me feel bad, you know? Or it's like, well, my father 836 00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:49,720 would have done this and it's something awful, you know? 837 00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:54,000 Yeah, yeah, that's right. Just as Jamie Cersei and Tyrion 838 00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:58,360 grapple with their shitty father Tywin's legacy, we see how 839 00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:02,400 Irulan has to grapple with her monstrous father Shaddam's 840 00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:05,440 legacy. And you know, Fade has to deal 841 00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:08,200 with the Baron Vladimir's legacy. 842 00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:11,760 And it's there's sort of a tragedy that these people who 843 00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:15,360 were born into these, who are the children of villainous 844 00:48:15,360 --> 00:48:18,000 fathers, like they don't necessarily want to follow in 845 00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:20,120 their villainous father's footsteps. 846 00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:24,560 Tyrion doesn't necessarily want to be like Tywin, Irulan doesn't 847 00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:26,640 necessarily want to be like Shiddam. 848 00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:30,240 But there is like this sense of inevitability about following in 849 00:48:30,240 --> 00:48:32,920 your parents footsteps and just the political realities, you 850 00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:34,960 know? So there's that, that there's 851 00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:38,680 there's much about like legacy and family and bloodline and 852 00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:41,000 power that that both of these stories explore. 853 00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:42,960 And that's what kind of why I brought up Tyrion, 'cause he's 854 00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:46,560 specifically the one that points out that we are the puppets that 855 00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:48,760 dance on the strings of those who came before us. 856 00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:49,720 Because that's that's. A. 857 00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:52,360 Nice, succinct George way to say that. 858 00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:54,960 And maybe, maybe George got that line from Shakespeare or 859 00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:58,440 something 'cause that's another major influence of his along 860 00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:01,600 with along with Dune. George has some great line about 861 00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:05,800 how his chief influences are William Shakespeare and Stanley 862 00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:09,080 Marvel Comics, which is wonderful. 863 00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:16,080 So our next parallel is the scheming and devious Pieter 864 00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:19,320 Devries. The Mentat assassin who serves 865 00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:22,320 the Harkonnens is very similar to Littlefinger. 866 00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:26,360 Peter Baelish, the political schemer in the Small Council. 867 00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:30,680 Yes, indeed. We have first of all a fun world 868 00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:34,720 building aspect. Dune that is meant at. 869 00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:38,280 And there is not a direct equivalent really in The Song of 870 00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:42,240 Ice and Fire I suppose. But there is the example of 871 00:49:42,240 --> 00:49:45,480 someone who's just really good at math and that alone puts them 872 00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:50,000 above everyone else, which is a similar role within the story. 873 00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:52,680 Especially because these are very unscrupulous people. 874 00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:57,080 They're not fully in charge of their own destiny. 875 00:49:57,080 --> 00:49:58,280 They have to work for someone else. 876 00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:00,920 They're both small. Obviously the name is similar. 877 00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:02,320 Yeah, I'm sure you noticed that one already. 878 00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:05,960 They One of them has the pointed chin, the other has a chin 879 00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:09,240 beard. They're everybody knows they're 880 00:50:09,240 --> 00:50:12,880 not trustworthy, but they're so useful that they are allowed to 881 00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:15,120 stick around. Well, there's something I I find 882 00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:17,280 like something that recurs again. 883 00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:19,800 Like we talked about how the Harkonnens and the Lannisters 884 00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:22,960 are both villainous and they're both associated with money and 885 00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:26,800 wealth and in a similar way like like pieder de Vries and and 886 00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:30,760 Peter, like Littlefinger has this financial acumen. 887 00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:34,880 I mean, I guess pieder de Vries is not associated with money per 888 00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:38,600 SE, but he's he's like a devious, smart, mathematically 889 00:50:38,600 --> 00:50:41,200 inclined person. And there's there's sort of the 890 00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:45,840 villainy of being a manipulative nerd, which, which yeah is, is 891 00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:49,320 huge with both these characters. And we have what their ambitions 892 00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:53,040 are, yeah, Which is busting after these two characters. 893 00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:56,720 We just compared Catelyn and Jessica, the redheads that had 894 00:50:56,720 --> 00:50:58,320 all these other things in common with each other. 895 00:50:58,320 --> 00:51:00,920 So that just by extension creates a lot more parallels. 896 00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:04,160 Yeah, but they both, like Pyter and Littlefinger are both the 897 00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:11,280 like, nerdy, angry, bitter, spurned underdog who wants power 898 00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:15,760 and wants the hot redhead. And they both get tantalizingly 899 00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:19,200 close to having it, but they don't quite get there. 900 00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:22,960 Which, yeah, is really cool. And both of them, I think, 901 00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:28,320 parallels and contrasts to a more heroic mentor. 902 00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:34,720 So Maester Lewin is the wise teacher of the Stark kids and 903 00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:38,560 and he's, you know, this really nice, well-intentioned guy, even 904 00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:40,240 if he's completely wrong about magic. 905 00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:44,920 And similarly Thufia Hawat, the Mentat is like the good guy 906 00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:46,360 version. I mean he's not really a good 907 00:51:46,360 --> 00:51:50,640 guy, but he's like the the more heroic version of Pita de Vries 908 00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:53,520 who is the beloved mentor of Paul. 909 00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:59,000 So we we get like a a good wise man figure in Lewin and Thufia 910 00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:04,680 and we get an evil conniving smart man in Pita and Peter. 911 00:52:04,680 --> 00:52:07,360 That's pretty cool. And we even have a little bit 912 00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:10,120 of. I'm working for the other side 913 00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:12,960 by force. Lewin had to work for Theon when 914 00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:16,040 when they were taken over by the Ironborn. 915 00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:18,800 That's a pretty small part of his arc, but it is, you know, 916 00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:21,040 that's how he goes out. Yeah, that's a great point. 917 00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:24,400 The the, the why. The heroic wise man that they 918 00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:29,840 both get captured by the bad guys and and they both advise 919 00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:33,480 the bad guys. Lewin advises Theon honestly and 920 00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:38,280 wisely, and Thufia advises the Hakanens in a slightly more 921 00:52:38,320 --> 00:52:39,320 complicated. It's what he does. 922 00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:44,200 And and and of course, you know, we we can note that Thuphia is a 923 00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:47,840 much more nasty, evil dude than than Lewin is. 924 00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:51,880 Because Thuphia is, after all, a meant at assassin and his job is 925 00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:54,880 murdering people. And you know, there's there's, 926 00:52:54,920 --> 00:52:57,440 there's some fun lines in the books about how the Harkonnens 927 00:52:57,440 --> 00:53:01,960 fear Thuphia hoaat, because he's just this implacable enemy who 928 00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:05,120 just absolutely will gut the Harkonens at every opportunity. 929 00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:11,160 So there there's Dune. Dune is It does lean harder into 930 00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:15,200 the villainy of even the heroes. Because, of course, Dune is 931 00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:19,720 about deconstructing the idea of heroism and questioning the idea 932 00:53:19,720 --> 00:53:22,240 of heroism. But I'm sure we'll discuss that 933 00:53:22,240 --> 00:53:24,240 more later. Yeah, the better comparison for 934 00:53:24,240 --> 00:53:27,040 a lot of what Thufir can do is like Blood Raven. 935 00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:32,960 You know, he's the the highly feared, questionable methods 936 00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:36,120 like powers that maybe he shouldn't have, you know, kind 937 00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:38,240 of thing. Yeah, true. 938 00:53:38,240 --> 00:53:39,480 Yeah. I mean, I I I think that's like, 939 00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:42,160 the fun thing is that, like, you know, Littlefinger thinks that 940 00:53:42,160 --> 00:53:45,880 he's the master manipulator, but then like a level above him, 941 00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:48,920 it's more like, Oh no, Illyrio is the master manipulator. 942 00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:51,960 And then you're like, Oh no, wait, Bloodraven is the master 943 00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:54,880 manipulator who's above them. And then, you know, hell, maybe 944 00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:58,280 Quake is up there as well. So yeah, there, there, there's 945 00:53:58,280 --> 00:54:02,760 levels to it in a way that I don't think Dune quite well. 946 00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:07,320 I mean Dune does have sort of levels as as the series goes on, 947 00:54:07,360 --> 00:54:11,200 I won't spoil it, but you know, after Paul there are, there are 948 00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:15,480 other Giga Brain mega people who are, you know that it's sort of 949 00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:19,760 there's this power creep in Dune where there's like a new super 950 00:54:19,760 --> 00:54:22,640 powerful person in each book practically. 951 00:54:22,640 --> 00:54:28,280 So, you know, there's the the scale expands, birth stories I 952 00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:30,160 suppose. And there is a sense in A Song 953 00:54:30,160 --> 00:54:33,960 of Ice and Fire that the tide of magic is rising, Dragons are 954 00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:35,680 reborn, White Walkers are returning. 955 00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:37,840 This is an age for gods and heroes. 956 00:54:38,080 --> 00:54:41,080 I like the idea that you're on. Greyjoy is emerging as like a 957 00:54:41,080 --> 00:54:43,640 new next level supernatural threat. 958 00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:47,320 So I guess both stories have this sort of power creep, this 959 00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:50,360 this increase in stakes and scale that increases as the 960 00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:52,840 story goes on. Yeah, I that's that's a good way 961 00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:54,440 to put it. It starts off as a squabble 962 00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:58,880 between two houses and the royal house, yeah, overshadowing it 963 00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:00,640 all. And then expands to include a 964 00:55:00,640 --> 00:55:04,880 lot more houses and interests and supernatural slash high tech 965 00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:07,640 aspects and goes from there. Yeah, so much. 966 00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:12,040 Yeah, and I think that the scale and complexity increases so much 967 00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:16,160 that the respective authors lose control of their stories. 968 00:55:16,160 --> 00:55:20,000 Because I won't spoil it, but Dune? 969 00:55:20,400 --> 00:55:24,720 The ending of Dune is almost explicitly a moment where the 970 00:55:24,720 --> 00:55:31,080 author kind of explicitly says, OOPS, my story has gotten out of 971 00:55:31,080 --> 00:55:32,760 my control. I've gone too far. 972 00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:35,560 There's all these crazy characters doing wacky things 973 00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:39,160 and I'm not really sure what's going on, to be entirely honest. 974 00:55:39,680 --> 00:55:42,560 And like like that that. Is the end of Chapter House. 975 00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:45,040 And whereas The Song of Ice and Fire. 976 00:55:45,200 --> 00:55:47,800 George, I don't think has quite admitted it to himself yet. 977 00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:51,920 But I think the reason why the The Song of Ice and Fire series 978 00:55:51,920 --> 00:55:55,640 is unfinished is largely because George has introduced too many 979 00:55:55,640 --> 00:55:58,040 characters and plot lines and the scale has increased and the 980 00:55:58,040 --> 00:56:01,360 complexity has increased and he's no longer quite in control 981 00:56:01,360 --> 00:56:03,480 of his own story. So I think that there's a very 982 00:56:03,480 --> 00:56:08,400 strong, like, meta similarity in how Frank and George both sort 983 00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:13,720 of lost control of their rapidly expanding universes. 984 00:56:13,920 --> 00:56:18,560 I agree. That and especially 20-30 years 985 00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:21,520 from now, some of these parallels will seem even more 986 00:56:21,520 --> 00:56:23,640 stark or more direct or maybe not. 987 00:56:23,720 --> 00:56:27,080 Maybe some of them will look less so depending on how next 988 00:56:27,080 --> 00:56:30,760 10-15 years actually go. But yeah, it's so true, 989 00:56:30,760 --> 00:56:33,600 especially as well the arc of of getting things made into TV 990 00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:35,800 shows and their own personal influences. 991 00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:38,720 I know we we had a few notes on that in terms of just like 992 00:56:38,720 --> 00:56:44,200 things that they've done where Dune has a lot of parallels to 993 00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:48,040 the wars in the Middle East over oil or the drug wars whereas the 994 00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:51,040 Song of Ice and Fire has allegories to climate change and 995 00:56:51,040 --> 00:56:53,800 these aren't necessarily Oh yeah I definitely did this George 996 00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:55,800 isn't George has said that he didn't do that on purpose. 997 00:56:55,800 --> 00:56:58,560 It we can he's he's also said you it it absolutely works for 998 00:56:58,560 --> 00:57:01,000 that but doesn't really even matter in terms of authorial 999 00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:02,920 intent if we're just talking about what's there and what 1000 00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:05,760 isn't. And so they both have, you can 1001 00:57:05,760 --> 00:57:08,360 see the products of from their own time and things that were 1002 00:57:08,360 --> 00:57:11,360 important during their era when they were writers and all that, 1003 00:57:11,800 --> 00:57:13,960 which I think is always a fun thing to deconstruct and look 1004 00:57:13,960 --> 00:57:15,640 at. Yeah, I mean it's fascinating 1005 00:57:15,640 --> 00:57:19,520 that they both are of their time and yet the stories are so 1006 00:57:19,520 --> 00:57:22,120 similar despite coming from such different times. 1007 00:57:22,120 --> 00:57:25,960 I mean the Dune books were published first in the 60s and 1008 00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:28,880 the Song of Ice and Fire was, you know, some 30 years later in 1009 00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:31,320 the 90s. And yet they are so similar. 1010 00:57:31,320 --> 00:57:34,440 And and I think that's because like I I think that both Dune 1011 00:57:34,440 --> 00:57:38,280 and Song of Ice and Fire that they are responding more to 1012 00:57:38,760 --> 00:57:44,160 fantasy literature and like ropes more so than they are 1013 00:57:44,160 --> 00:57:46,760 responding to like current events like Dune. 1014 00:57:46,880 --> 00:57:50,160 Dune is very much about I I I mean they both draw from history 1015 00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:51,440 as well. You know Frank Herbert 1016 00:57:51,440 --> 00:57:55,600 enormously was influenced by you know Sabres of Paradise and 1017 00:57:55,720 --> 00:57:58,360 Lawrence of Arabia and you know Song of Ice and Fire is very 1018 00:57:58,360 --> 00:58:00,520 much about Wars, Wars of the Roses and stuff. 1019 00:58:00,520 --> 00:58:04,960 So like I I think they they both draw more from history and from 1020 00:58:04,960 --> 00:58:09,880 literature and from you know tropes and common stories than 1021 00:58:09,880 --> 00:58:12,640 they do from their current time necessarily. 1022 00:58:12,800 --> 00:58:15,240 I mean I mean George RR Martin is writing The Winds of Winter 1023 00:58:15,240 --> 00:58:19,400 in the year 2023, but he but The Winds of Winter is not about the 1024 00:58:19,400 --> 00:58:21,640 year 2023. The Winds of Winter is more 1025 00:58:21,640 --> 00:58:25,600 about the you know 80s when when George Martin was coming up. 1026 00:58:25,640 --> 00:58:28,600 You know and George has said as much in interviews that he he's 1027 00:58:29,040 --> 00:58:33,280 George is not writing about 2023 politics in A Song of Acid Fire. 1028 00:58:33,280 --> 00:58:37,360 He's more responding to history and more universal. 1029 00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:40,600 Cultural ideas, that's something that interests him more in in 1030 00:58:40,600 --> 00:58:43,000 general the things that he reads about like he grew up reading 1031 00:58:43,000 --> 00:58:47,080 history and you know he has painted figurines of Knights and 1032 00:58:47,080 --> 00:58:49,680 he loves you know Lord of the Rings is a one of his biggest 1033 00:58:49,680 --> 00:58:52,160 influences. So that that sort of thing, 1034 00:58:52,280 --> 00:58:55,920 history repeating itself, the cycles of history and ancient 1035 00:58:55,920 --> 00:58:58,480 world or the medieval world, that is more his jam. 1036 00:58:58,480 --> 00:59:01,120 Even though he's written substantial amounts of both. 1037 00:59:01,160 --> 00:59:04,200 He has a pretty wide catalog. He's written a lot of sci-fi and 1038 00:59:04,200 --> 00:59:07,800 he did that before he wrote and fire, which is probably where he 1039 00:59:07,800 --> 00:59:10,680 gets some of that ability to use different notes within a 1040 00:59:10,680 --> 00:59:13,440 familiar story, which helps be more unique. 1041 00:59:14,320 --> 00:59:16,200 I think that adds to it overall, I'd say. 1042 00:59:16,840 --> 00:59:20,400 Yeah, I think both George and Frank are writing as much in 1043 00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:25,840 response to Beowulf and the Iliad as they are to the 1044 00:59:25,840 --> 00:59:29,120 politics of their contemporary time, that they're really 1045 00:59:29,120 --> 00:59:30,840 reaching for something more universal. 1046 00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:33,680 And and I think that's part of why these series have so much 1047 00:59:33,680 --> 00:59:35,760 longevity. Like Dune is a book that is 1048 00:59:35,760 --> 00:59:40,600 being read and enjoyed some 60 years after its publication. 1049 00:59:40,640 --> 00:59:43,880 And and A Song of Ice and Fire I I suspect will be read for a 1050 00:59:43,880 --> 00:59:45,560 long time as well. Because yeah, they're both 1051 00:59:45,560 --> 00:59:48,960 reaching for something universal rather than chasing any kind of 1052 00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:51,960 like current, current trend or whatever. 1053 00:59:51,960 --> 00:59:55,160 I wonder how much they have in common regarding doing 1054 00:59:55,240 --> 00:59:58,600 psychedelic drugs. Yeah, must be asked. 1055 00:59:59,320 --> 01:00:04,040 Yeah, drugs are definitely a theme in both stories and in 1056 01:00:04,040 --> 01:00:06,480 both authors lives. Yeah, right. 1057 01:00:06,480 --> 01:00:09,280 Like, no, Herbert experimented with psychedelic. 1058 01:00:09,280 --> 01:00:10,680 Maybe more than experimented with. 1059 01:00:10,840 --> 01:00:13,600 I'm not quite as clear on George, but he's a huge fan of 1060 01:00:13,600 --> 01:00:16,840 the Grateful Dead, you know, his Dead head and that subculture. 1061 01:00:16,840 --> 01:00:19,680 And yeah, I mean, he doesn't have children, so there's 1062 01:00:19,680 --> 01:00:21,640 nothing really stopping him, you know? 1063 01:00:22,320 --> 01:00:27,200 So yeah, and with the the Weirwood visions and the way he 1064 01:00:27,200 --> 01:00:29,480 writes things like that, it might pay off to have some 1065 01:00:29,480 --> 01:00:31,920 experience if you're going to write prophecies and visions to 1066 01:00:32,520 --> 01:00:36,160 maybe you had a few of your own. Yeah, yeah, 'cause obviously 1067 01:00:36,160 --> 01:00:40,640 Spice is the powerful drug that's at the heart of Dune, and 1068 01:00:40,640 --> 01:00:44,800 there's also other drugs like Sappho and some muta in Dune, A 1069 01:00:44,800 --> 01:00:46,920 Song of Ice and Fire. The drugs aren't as obvious, but 1070 01:00:46,920 --> 01:00:49,560 you have drugs like the shade of the evening, which Daenerys 1071 01:00:49,560 --> 01:00:52,640 takes before her visions, and Euron also drinks shade of the 1072 01:00:52,640 --> 01:00:54,360 evening. And interestingly, shade of the 1073 01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:59,160 evening stains your lips a dark blue, dark purple, dark indigo, 1074 01:00:59,360 --> 01:01:02,640 which is similar to how the mintats have their lips stained 1075 01:01:02,760 --> 01:01:06,840 red by the drugs that they take. And the indigo of shade of the 1076 01:01:06,840 --> 01:01:10,200 evening might be a bit like the blue of the spice in Dune. 1077 01:01:10,240 --> 01:01:14,520 Like that one, Yeah. And the whatever brand drinks 1078 01:01:14,520 --> 01:01:18,800 that thing that is debatedly Jojen paste or not, seems to 1079 01:01:18,800 --> 01:01:20,400 trigger a bunch of visions as well. 1080 01:01:21,200 --> 01:01:25,200 So there's that, as well as Dream wine, apparently, can 1081 01:01:25,200 --> 01:01:28,320 maybe 'cause some visions. I know there's that famous scene 1082 01:01:28,320 --> 01:01:32,760 where Jamie has his vision, his dream with Brienne underneath 1083 01:01:32,760 --> 01:01:35,960 Casually Rock and King's garden and all that. 1084 01:01:35,960 --> 01:01:38,760 The ghosts in blue and white. He's under the influence of 1085 01:01:39,040 --> 01:01:42,960 dream wine and fever, and he's got his head resting on a 1086 01:01:42,960 --> 01:01:46,400 weirwood stump, so you know you've got. 1087 01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:51,560 Multiple factors there too. Shall we talk about the Baron 1088 01:01:51,640 --> 01:01:58,280 the and Illyrio Mapatis, the conniving fat man at the at the 1089 01:01:58,280 --> 01:01:59,880 heart of the story, pulling strings? 1090 01:01:59,880 --> 01:02:02,520 Let's do it. This was the the character I 1091 01:02:02,520 --> 01:02:05,480 mentioned that isn't a Lannister, you know doesn't 1092 01:02:05,480 --> 01:02:07,720 isn't a Lannister within the story in terms of Illyrio. 1093 01:02:08,280 --> 01:02:11,560 It has the characteristics of a harken which in early we made 1094 01:02:11,560 --> 01:02:13,440 the Harken and Lannister parallels. 1095 01:02:13,520 --> 01:02:18,120 Both of these large men have rings on every finger and my 1096 01:02:18,120 --> 01:02:20,800 favorite parallel here in terms of the way they move is that 1097 01:02:20,920 --> 01:02:22,640 area is unusually light on his feet. 1098 01:02:22,640 --> 01:02:25,560 And the in world description for that or reason for that is that 1099 01:02:25,560 --> 01:02:29,040 he's a former water dancer whereas the Baron is also 1100 01:02:29,040 --> 01:02:31,120 unusually light on his feet and that's because of the 1101 01:02:31,120 --> 01:02:32,880 suspensers. That's not unusual. 1102 01:02:32,880 --> 01:02:35,320 I guess it just would look unusual when you're seeing it 1103 01:02:35,320 --> 01:02:37,440 for the first time. Now if you're if you watched all 1104 01:02:37,440 --> 01:02:40,800 the various TV shows and movies, usually have him floating, but I 1105 01:02:40,800 --> 01:02:44,560 think in the book it's more of a just a lot, a lot of help. 1106 01:02:44,760 --> 01:02:46,800 But maybe I'm wrong about that, I don't recall exactly. 1107 01:02:46,800 --> 01:02:48,600 Either way, it's very similar in that sense. 1108 01:02:49,120 --> 01:02:51,520 Yeah, I think that as you say, yeah. 1109 01:02:51,520 --> 01:02:54,920 I think in the Dune book, the Baron doesn't so much levitate 1110 01:02:54,920 --> 01:02:58,880 and fly. He more is just held up partly 1111 01:02:58,880 --> 01:03:01,440 by the suspenses to make him lighter. 1112 01:03:01,680 --> 01:03:04,600 So he's it. It's almost like comical the way 1113 01:03:04,600 --> 01:03:08,480 he's described as like this big fat baby who sort of drifts and 1114 01:03:08,800 --> 01:03:12,200 hops across the ground lightly as though he's walking on the 1115 01:03:12,200 --> 01:03:15,200 moon or something. And it's like the the the 1116 01:03:15,200 --> 01:03:17,800 villain. The Villeneuve Dune movies make 1117 01:03:17,800 --> 01:03:21,120 the Baron a lot more sort of serious and dark and a lot more 1118 01:03:21,120 --> 01:03:25,360 dignified, whereas in the book the Baron is this more 1119 01:03:25,360 --> 01:03:32,000 ridiculous, comical, over the top talkative also like a sort 1120 01:03:32,000 --> 01:03:37,800 of like negative gay sex criminal stereotype thing. 1121 01:03:38,080 --> 01:03:41,640 This sort of this homophobic element in Dune in parts of it. 1122 01:03:42,280 --> 01:03:45,680 But yeah, the the Baron is is is more sort of ridiculous than 1123 01:03:45,680 --> 01:03:48,760 over the top in the books. And yeah, definitely similar to 1124 01:03:49,280 --> 01:03:52,400 Illyrio because Illyrio like similar to Vladimir in the 1125 01:03:52,400 --> 01:03:55,640 books, the Baron in the books. They both love the sound of 1126 01:03:55,640 --> 01:03:58,520 their own voice, and they both talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. 1127 01:03:58,520 --> 01:04:02,840 And they both have these secrets that they blab about a little 1128 01:04:02,840 --> 01:04:05,960 bit too much. The Baron, there's a couple of 1129 01:04:05,960 --> 01:04:08,360 moments in the books where the Baron says something and gives 1130 01:04:08,360 --> 01:04:12,040 away something, and then he's like, oh, why did I say that? 1131 01:04:12,040 --> 01:04:13,720 I shouldn't have given that away? 1132 01:04:15,400 --> 01:04:19,080 And in I think the same way, like in Elyrio's conversations 1133 01:04:19,080 --> 01:04:22,840 with Tyrion, Elyrio says things about, oh, you know, I have 1134 01:04:23,280 --> 01:04:27,240 debts of affection to repay. And, you know, a dragon is still 1135 01:04:27,240 --> 01:04:28,800 a dragon. And he has all these little 1136 01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:32,880 lines where he sort of he, he, he can't help himself but sort 1137 01:04:32,880 --> 01:04:36,880 of hint at his grand scheme, which I think is part of what 1138 01:04:36,960 --> 01:04:40,160 what leads or will lead to their undoing. 1139 01:04:40,360 --> 01:04:43,960 So yeah. The the possible connection 1140 01:04:43,960 --> 01:04:48,840 parallel to that is Aria overhearing virus and Illyrio 1141 01:04:48,840 --> 01:04:52,640 plotting under the Red Keep. And you know, that's not them 1142 01:04:52,640 --> 01:04:55,960 blabbing because they have a very reasonable expectation that 1143 01:04:55,960 --> 01:04:58,600 no one's listening. But it, you know, creates a 1144 01:04:58,600 --> 01:05:01,640 similar thing where something gets leaked the way that the 1145 01:05:01,640 --> 01:05:03,520 audience can see kind of straightforwardly. 1146 01:05:03,520 --> 01:05:07,160 I I think it's interesting how both characters use words like 1147 01:05:07,160 --> 01:05:10,200 the Baron. Vladimir explicitly, like Frank 1148 01:05:10,200 --> 01:05:13,440 was obsessed with language and and how language can be used and 1149 01:05:13,440 --> 01:05:15,720 misused. And so there's times like, you 1150 01:05:15,720 --> 01:05:19,440 know, the Baron says oh I promised that I won't kill 1151 01:05:19,440 --> 01:05:22,520 Jessica and Paul, so therefore I won't kill Jessica and Paul. 1152 01:05:22,520 --> 01:05:25,560 I will just leave them in the desert and the desert will kill 1153 01:05:25,560 --> 01:05:27,680 Jessica and Paul. So it's a sort of like 1154 01:05:27,920 --> 01:05:31,720 ridiculous like semi truth. And I feel like Illyrio plays 1155 01:05:31,720 --> 01:05:35,600 with language in similar ways. I can't think of a direct 1156 01:05:35,600 --> 01:05:39,040 example, but Illyrio's Illyrio and Varys definitely like play 1157 01:05:39,040 --> 01:05:41,040 with like language and appearances. 1158 01:05:41,040 --> 01:05:44,720 Varys is of course a Mama, you know he he he's a playwright, he 1159 01:05:44,720 --> 01:05:47,840 takes on disguises and he and he uses things that are technically 1160 01:05:47,840 --> 01:05:50,200 true but not quite. So I think there's similarities 1161 01:05:50,200 --> 01:05:53,040 there as well. 2 examples to come to mind from Illyrio is is 1162 01:05:53,040 --> 01:05:56,880 1 where he twists Tyrion around regarding the poisonous 1163 01:05:56,880 --> 01:06:00,840 mushrooms and it kind of manipulates him that way and 1164 01:06:00,840 --> 01:06:02,960 trying to tricks him into showing him and you do want to 1165 01:06:02,960 --> 01:06:04,960 live. See, I proved it to you by 1166 01:06:05,360 --> 01:06:09,640 presenting you with the choice. And another one maybe is the way 1167 01:06:09,640 --> 01:06:13,800 he Nikito's his way past Viserys temper tantrums. 1168 01:06:14,320 --> 01:06:17,440 Like take me for a fool and he's like, oh, I take you for a king 1169 01:06:17,440 --> 01:06:19,920 because kings lack the caution of common man. 1170 01:06:19,920 --> 01:06:23,440 He turned, he just is very smooth at turning an insult into 1171 01:06:23,440 --> 01:06:25,840 a compliment, you know, And a lot of that is just the way 1172 01:06:25,840 --> 01:06:27,200 Viserys took it in the 1st place. 1173 01:06:27,640 --> 01:06:30,200 Yeah, I agree. They're both very good talkers 1174 01:06:30,200 --> 01:06:33,240 and they talk a lot and Tyrion thinks about that how he just 1175 01:06:33,240 --> 01:06:35,840 wants me. The more Illyrio talks and the 1176 01:06:35,840 --> 01:06:40,000 more he drinks, he's maybe more careful than the Baron. 1177 01:06:40,000 --> 01:06:43,400 But he does let a few things out that Tyrion's able to get a 1178 01:06:43,400 --> 01:06:46,200 sense of a lot of things. Tyrion figures out that this, 1179 01:06:46,440 --> 01:06:48,960 that they're up to something. He he figures out that that 1180 01:06:49,000 --> 01:06:51,200 young Griff is more important to him than he's letting on. 1181 01:06:51,200 --> 01:06:53,800 Which has led to all these black fire theories and and him being 1182 01:06:53,800 --> 01:06:59,680 his father and more suspicions about that, his connection to 1183 01:06:59,680 --> 01:07:02,320 Varys and all these other things that help set up the black fire 1184 01:07:02,320 --> 01:07:04,080 plot, the young Griff plot, whatever you want to call it. 1185 01:07:04,680 --> 01:07:06,640 And that yeah, that feels pretty similar here. 1186 01:07:06,640 --> 01:07:08,520 Yeah, well, you, I mean, you mentioned Young Griff. 1187 01:07:08,520 --> 01:07:13,240 I I think that Illyrio Illyrio has this conspicuous fondness 1188 01:07:13,240 --> 01:07:17,640 for the handsome young boy, Young Griff, which I think is 1189 01:07:17,640 --> 01:07:21,280 similar to how the Baron Vladimir has a conspicuous 1190 01:07:21,280 --> 01:07:24,600 fondness for the handsome young boy Fayed Ralpha. 1191 01:07:24,800 --> 01:07:28,160 And you know, Fayed Ralpha and young Griff are both talented. 1192 01:07:28,160 --> 01:07:30,280 Well, maybe not talented, but but they're both like young 1193 01:07:30,280 --> 01:07:35,480 trained warriors and they both have nice hair and and they both 1194 01:07:35,480 --> 01:07:38,520 are Moody teenagers like Fade. Ralph and young Griff had both 1195 01:07:38,840 --> 01:07:43,200 like these impetuous teenagers who have these sort of temper 1196 01:07:43,200 --> 01:07:47,240 tantrums and they sort of they sort of are learning to be smart 1197 01:07:47,240 --> 01:07:49,240 like they are. They are being trained by their 1198 01:07:49,240 --> 01:07:51,760 villainous, conspiratorial mentor. 1199 01:07:51,760 --> 01:07:53,840 They're being trained to be a political player, but they are 1200 01:07:53,840 --> 01:07:56,400 not as good of a political player like Fader. 1201 01:07:56,400 --> 01:08:00,440 Alfa is not as good at scheming as the Baron Vladimir, and young 1202 01:08:00,440 --> 01:08:03,040 Griff is not as good at scheming as Illyrio. 1203 01:08:03,280 --> 01:08:06,800 And that's how Tyrion is able to mess with young Griff and 1204 01:08:06,800 --> 01:08:08,640 convince him to go West and all of that. 1205 01:08:08,640 --> 01:08:10,640 So. So you know, I don't. 1206 01:08:10,840 --> 01:08:14,600 I don't, I don't think that Illyrio is like sexually 1207 01:08:14,640 --> 01:08:17,359 interested in young Griff in the way that the Baron Vladimir is 1208 01:08:17,359 --> 01:08:19,040 sexually interested in Fader Alfa. 1209 01:08:19,319 --> 01:08:22,160 But I think there's definitely like a similarity to their to 1210 01:08:22,160 --> 01:08:25,040 their close relationship and that sort of mentor relationship 1211 01:08:25,319 --> 01:08:28,160 and and how Young Griff and Fayed Ralpha, they both I think 1212 01:08:28,160 --> 01:08:32,520 are unworthy scions. You know, like the Baron has 1213 01:08:32,520 --> 01:08:36,000 invested all this time and energy into putting Fayed Ralpha 1214 01:08:36,000 --> 01:08:38,920 into power and Illyrio has put all this time and energy into 1215 01:08:38,920 --> 01:08:42,359 putting Young Griff into power. But we we can plainly see that 1216 01:08:42,359 --> 01:08:46,359 Fayed Ralpha and Young Griff are both not worthy to be rulers 1217 01:08:46,359 --> 01:08:47,680 because. They're not as good as the 1218 01:08:47,680 --> 01:08:49,160 alternatives. Yeah, that's the Super great 1219 01:08:49,160 --> 01:08:50,240 point. Yeah. 1220 01:08:50,359 --> 01:08:53,200 They both explore like that. They both are manufactured 1221 01:08:53,200 --> 01:08:55,359 heroes, Fayed Router and Younger. 1222 01:08:55,359 --> 01:09:00,399 If they both have been carefully created and and groomed to take 1223 01:09:00,399 --> 01:09:04,200 power, but that it just doesn't, that just isn't a good idea in 1224 01:09:04,200 --> 01:09:07,160 either situation. Ironically, they created the 1225 01:09:07,399 --> 01:09:11,000 better alternative through their actions by sending them into 1226 01:09:11,880 --> 01:09:17,680 situations where they weren't expected to survive. 1227 01:09:17,680 --> 01:09:20,520 They were coddled and protected all throughout their whole 1228 01:09:21,080 --> 01:09:23,479 lives, even though they were given a great education. 1229 01:09:23,479 --> 01:09:26,600 And virus goes on with that speech to Kevin about how O 1230 01:09:26,600 --> 01:09:30,720 Aegon has been scared. He knows what it's like to fix 1231 01:09:30,720 --> 01:09:35,160 Nets and swim in a river and do all these all this like common 1232 01:09:35,160 --> 01:09:38,080 born stuff and but that's nothing next to what Danny has 1233 01:09:38,080 --> 01:09:40,600 gone through, right? Danny's gone through way more 1234 01:09:40,600 --> 01:09:41,760 than that. Danny's gone through 1235 01:09:41,760 --> 01:09:44,000 legitimately, feared for her life. 1236 01:09:44,000 --> 01:09:47,960 She was sold as a slave. She was, you know, taken by a 1237 01:09:47,960 --> 01:09:52,120 Dothraki call and seen horrible things in war already at a young 1238 01:09:52,120 --> 01:09:55,400 age, whereas young Griff didn't see any of that. 1239 01:09:55,400 --> 01:09:57,600 And the same with Paul. Faye didn't see any of those 1240 01:09:57,600 --> 01:09:59,840 things. He didn't go through like true 1241 01:09:59,840 --> 01:10:02,600 hardships. He may have had tough training 1242 01:10:02,600 --> 01:10:06,320 sessions and sweated out, you know, a lot of calories while in 1243 01:10:06,320 --> 01:10:11,120 the gym, you know, I'm sure his muscles were large, but he 1244 01:10:11,120 --> 01:10:14,880 wasn't like shaped by the desert like Danny and Paul were. 1245 01:10:14,880 --> 01:10:18,440 And and fought with the the Fremen or with the Dothraki, 1246 01:10:18,440 --> 01:10:20,920 which are a bit of a parallel here, at least at least in this 1247 01:10:21,080 --> 01:10:24,200 particular context where it's just really hard living and it 1248 01:10:24,200 --> 01:10:25,560 makes you tough if you survive it. 1249 01:10:25,760 --> 01:10:27,680 And neither of them were expected to survive. 1250 01:10:27,840 --> 01:10:32,120 And because they did, they're a better stavier slash leader 1251 01:10:32,120 --> 01:10:35,880 figure than this engineered version that was basically grown 1252 01:10:35,880 --> 01:10:37,720 in a lab, if you want to use that metaphor. 1253 01:10:37,720 --> 01:10:39,920 That's the plan that's being foisted. 1254 01:10:39,920 --> 01:10:44,840 Here you have a Baron who has this beast, Rabin, to be a bad 1255 01:10:44,840 --> 01:10:48,480 ruler that everybody hates. He's doing some purpose in order 1256 01:10:48,480 --> 01:10:52,000 to later replace him with his beloved engineered alternative 1257 01:10:52,000 --> 01:10:53,960 and fade. Which is exactly what Illyrio 1258 01:10:53,960 --> 01:10:59,120 and Vars are trying to do by sending Viserys leading Dathraki 1259 01:10:59,640 --> 01:11:03,120 to Westeros and then have their guy come in and be the savior 1260 01:11:03,120 --> 01:11:06,520 against that, and thus come out ahead and be beloved for his 1261 01:11:06,640 --> 01:11:10,160 being such a hero. So it's it's super similar in 1262 01:11:10,160 --> 01:11:12,640 that regard, of course. And you know, obviously there's 1263 01:11:12,640 --> 01:11:14,240 huge differences. If we were to sit here and list 1264 01:11:14,240 --> 01:11:16,000 all the differences, there'd be huge differences as well. 1265 01:11:16,000 --> 01:11:20,600 But these similarities are are stark and and crazy and cool. 1266 01:11:20,920 --> 01:11:22,400 I love it. Yeah. 1267 01:11:22,600 --> 01:11:25,200 Yeah. No, I that that is a similarity 1268 01:11:25,200 --> 01:11:29,160 that is so specific that I think it almost has to be George 1269 01:11:29,160 --> 01:11:33,840 copying Frank Herbert. Because yeah, Illyrio sending 1270 01:11:34,000 --> 01:11:37,960 young Griff to replace awful Viserys is the is the same 1271 01:11:37,960 --> 01:11:42,760 goddamn idea as the Baron sending Fade to replace the 1272 01:11:42,760 --> 01:11:45,600 awful Raban. It it's it's the same plan and 1273 01:11:45,600 --> 01:11:49,600 it's such a specific plan. So yeah, I love it. 1274 01:11:49,600 --> 01:11:50,400 Love it. Yeah. 1275 01:11:51,120 --> 01:11:53,040 So. And of course there's, I wonder 1276 01:11:53,040 --> 01:11:56,200 if I think Illyrio isn't rich from, rich from whale fur, but 1277 01:11:56,200 --> 01:11:58,800 he does trade. And you know, he did get rich 1278 01:11:58,800 --> 01:12:00,880 from. I mean, that Origin stuff is 1279 01:12:00,880 --> 01:12:03,520 kind of similar. And like, he eats like crazy. 1280 01:12:03,520 --> 01:12:07,040 And yeah, yeah. Yeah, they both love food and 1281 01:12:07,040 --> 01:12:11,120 money and luxury and and that that sort of indulgence is all. 1282 01:12:11,120 --> 01:12:14,040 Yeah, coding for a sort of villainous vibe. 1283 01:12:14,120 --> 01:12:17,160 So yeah, huge similarities. And they both are slavers. 1284 01:12:17,520 --> 01:12:21,760 Illyrio has slaves and the Harkonnens have slaves and so 1285 01:12:21,760 --> 01:12:24,440 they both use and abuse people and that's part of their 1286 01:12:24,440 --> 01:12:26,520 villainy. And and and yeah, like, it's 1287 01:12:26,520 --> 01:12:30,040 it's that whole idea of, you know, Illyrio creating and 1288 01:12:30,040 --> 01:12:32,880 installing young Griff and Vladimir installing Phaedra 1289 01:12:32,880 --> 01:12:35,040 Alpha. It it's that idea of you. 1290 01:12:35,040 --> 01:12:39,160 You can't manufacture true worthy heroism. 1291 01:12:39,520 --> 01:12:43,240 You can't be born into true, worthy heroism. 1292 01:12:43,480 --> 01:12:47,440 You can only get it by experience and work and 1293 01:12:47,440 --> 01:12:50,560 intention and hardship. And that's what Paul and 1294 01:12:50,560 --> 01:12:53,720 Daenerys represent. And that's how both stories 1295 01:12:53,720 --> 01:12:56,880 criticize monarchy and and feudalism. 1296 01:12:56,880 --> 01:13:00,920 It's that idea that any kind of power passed down through 1297 01:13:00,920 --> 01:13:04,440 generations is is just a deeply flawed system. 1298 01:13:04,680 --> 01:13:05,840 Even when the good guys wield it. 1299 01:13:05,840 --> 01:13:08,680 Yeah, right. Like even they can't avoid a lot 1300 01:13:08,680 --> 01:13:10,600 of the problems that come in here into the system. 1301 01:13:11,320 --> 01:13:13,480 Yeah, you're not born into power. 1302 01:13:13,480 --> 01:13:16,520 You have to earn power. And that's what the heroes do in 1303 01:13:16,600 --> 01:13:17,880 both stories. That's part of John. 1304 01:13:17,880 --> 01:13:20,000 We didn't even mention Jon Snow. That's a big part of him as 1305 01:13:20,000 --> 01:13:21,760 well. Whether or not no matter how his 1306 01:13:21,760 --> 01:13:26,520 end goes he has gone through a lot to gain power or to have 1307 01:13:26,520 --> 01:13:29,120 been placed over other people to have the responsibility of 1308 01:13:29,120 --> 01:13:31,240 leadership. He he first went through 1309 01:13:31,760 --> 01:13:34,960 legitimate dangers and and survived legitimate things and 1310 01:13:34,960 --> 01:13:36,520 and suffered and and a lot of that. 1311 01:13:36,520 --> 01:13:40,120 So yeah Arya she's not necessarily going to be a leader 1312 01:13:40,240 --> 01:13:44,680 but she's gone through a lot. Ansa is is probably going to be 1313 01:13:44,680 --> 01:13:46,520 a leader been through a lot right. 1314 01:13:46,520 --> 01:13:50,360 And yeah, it's it's a recurring they're all going through 1315 01:13:50,360 --> 01:13:53,160 legitimate experience rather than something that's that's 1316 01:13:53,240 --> 01:13:55,440 cultured or done behind closed doors. 1317 01:13:55,480 --> 01:13:59,840 Someone in the live chat points out that the 2nd June book has a 1318 01:14:00,400 --> 01:14:06,480 has a quirky, funny dwarf called bejazz, which is similar to 1319 01:14:06,640 --> 01:14:10,440 Tyrion is often playing word games and being funny and 1320 01:14:10,440 --> 01:14:12,120 provocative. I I think there are some 1321 01:14:12,120 --> 01:14:15,640 similarities between Bejazz and Tyrion. 1322 01:14:15,640 --> 01:14:16,280 It's. A great point. 1323 01:14:16,280 --> 01:14:18,520 I'm surprised I missed that. Yeah, it's really obvious. 1324 01:14:18,560 --> 01:14:22,560 Nothing to mention it, yeah. And and George has had several 1325 01:14:22,720 --> 01:14:26,200 dwarf characters. I I remember the the authors of 1326 01:14:26,200 --> 01:14:31,200 The Expanse, Daniel Abraham and Ty Frank were saying that George 1327 01:14:31,200 --> 01:14:35,520 Martin, like the the The Expanse sci-fi story started as a 1328 01:14:35,520 --> 01:14:39,800 tabletop role-playing game with Daniel and and George and others 1329 01:14:39,800 --> 01:14:43,720 as players and and George's character in this role-playing 1330 01:14:43,720 --> 01:14:47,200 game was a was a dwarf character. 1331 01:14:47,560 --> 01:14:50,920 With a. Really ridiculous name that I 1332 01:14:51,480 --> 01:14:54,360 can't remember off the top of my head, but yeah, dwarves. 1333 01:14:54,360 --> 01:14:56,840 That's amazing. I knew about the campaign stuff. 1334 01:14:56,840 --> 01:14:58,480 I didn't know George's character was a dwarf, though. 1335 01:14:58,480 --> 01:15:00,720 That part's new to me. That's great, Yeah. 1336 01:15:00,960 --> 01:15:03,320 Yeah, George has a has a thing for dwarfs, apparently. 1337 01:15:03,400 --> 01:15:05,400 Shall we talk a little more about Daenerys and Paul? 1338 01:15:05,400 --> 01:15:10,280 Because they both are these, you know, scions of ancient powerful 1339 01:15:10,280 --> 01:15:14,080 houses who lose their birthright and they both wander the desert 1340 01:15:14,080 --> 01:15:17,240 and they both learn to survive in a different environment. 1341 01:15:17,240 --> 01:15:21,160 And they learn to live with locals, the Dothraki and the 1342 01:15:21,160 --> 01:15:21,800 Fremen. What? 1343 01:15:21,800 --> 01:15:23,080 What other similarities are there? 1344 01:15:23,080 --> 01:15:26,640 This is a really strong one and it's it's nicely LED into from 1345 01:15:26,640 --> 01:15:29,560 this, this plotting of before where we talked about who the 1346 01:15:29,560 --> 01:15:32,560 real hero figures are, the ones who have really had strong and 1347 01:15:32,560 --> 01:15:34,240 tough upbringings. That's probably the most 1348 01:15:34,240 --> 01:15:37,840 overarching similarity between them is that they are inheritors 1349 01:15:37,840 --> 01:15:43,240 of huge important bloodline it at a really hugely important 1350 01:15:43,240 --> 01:15:46,680 time, and they both have prophetic visions. 1351 01:15:46,760 --> 01:15:50,240 Both have said they're going out into the desert and survive 1352 01:15:50,240 --> 01:15:53,080 that. And out in the desert they 1353 01:15:53,600 --> 01:16:01,320 interact with and come to lead an extremely powerful local 1354 01:16:01,760 --> 01:16:03,960 regional group like the Dothraki slash. 1355 01:16:03,960 --> 01:16:07,560 The Fremen in this case, who are extremely formidable like the 1356 01:16:07,560 --> 01:16:10,440 Fremen of course, are a much much much older culture. 1357 01:16:10,440 --> 01:16:11,760 They're much more highly developed. 1358 01:16:11,760 --> 01:16:16,880 The Dothraki are are more just straightforward warrior culture 1359 01:16:16,880 --> 01:16:19,880 in its in its first few 100 years or maybe a little later. 1360 01:16:19,880 --> 01:16:22,440 It's kind of unclear when they actually started, but they 1361 01:16:22,440 --> 01:16:24,200 definitely aren't anywhere near as old as the Fremen. 1362 01:16:24,280 --> 01:16:30,440 Though the Dothraki don't tame you know, Dragons, Daenerys does 1363 01:16:30,440 --> 01:16:34,920 and that's obviously a a parallel to the the shy halood 1364 01:16:35,080 --> 01:16:37,960 and the riding of sandworms which very few people do. 1365 01:16:38,440 --> 01:16:41,680 Just like very few people ride Dragons in the history of A Song 1366 01:16:41,680 --> 01:16:46,720 of Ice and Fire and they both have a a family member with them 1367 01:16:46,720 --> 01:16:48,680 when they're when they're go out into exile. 1368 01:16:48,760 --> 01:16:52,360 Of course Danny has an incompetent, poor influence on 1369 01:16:52,360 --> 01:16:55,640 her. And then Viserys, whereas Paul 1370 01:16:55,640 --> 01:17:00,640 has Jessica, who is extremely capable, like the exact opposite 1371 01:17:00,640 --> 01:17:04,240 of Viserys. Level of competence and level of 1372 01:17:04,240 --> 01:17:06,840 education and mental fortitude and everything. 1373 01:17:06,840 --> 01:17:08,960 I mean, they're they're about as opposite as it gets here. 1374 01:17:10,080 --> 01:17:11,840 And the pregnancy part is similar too, 'cause you have, 1375 01:17:11,840 --> 01:17:14,160 you have Paul being or Paul obviously isn't pregnant, but 1376 01:17:14,160 --> 01:17:16,640 Jessica is, and then Danny is pregnant, and it's with someone 1377 01:17:16,640 --> 01:17:18,360 who has passed recently within the story. 1378 01:17:18,400 --> 01:17:22,120 Yeah, it's interesting that like Daenerys, I, I think has this 1379 01:17:22,240 --> 01:17:26,840 intense loneliness because she's a Targaryen alone in the world. 1380 01:17:26,840 --> 01:17:31,960 And as you say, Viserys is not a good family member And and Paul 1381 01:17:31,960 --> 01:17:36,880 in contrast, Paul has his mother by his side, he has a, a family 1382 01:17:36,880 --> 01:17:38,760 member watching his back, which is great. 1383 01:17:38,760 --> 01:17:43,120 But but I guess Paul's isolation comes more from his prescience 1384 01:17:43,120 --> 01:17:45,920 and his visions and all these experiences that are going on in 1385 01:17:45,920 --> 01:17:49,720 his head that that that's sort of what isolates Paul. 1386 01:17:49,920 --> 01:17:53,360 And yeah, as you say, they both have these prophetic visions and 1387 01:17:53,360 --> 01:17:56,600 this sense of destiny that drives them. 1388 01:17:56,600 --> 01:18:00,200 And there's we can talk more about prescience later, but it's 1389 01:18:00,200 --> 01:18:02,960 something that is both empowering and it's also 1390 01:18:02,960 --> 01:18:05,640 dangerous. And there's also a question like 1391 01:18:06,880 --> 01:18:10,440 part of the books is that Paul, the way Paul treats the Freeman 1392 01:18:10,440 --> 01:18:14,480 is exploitative, is sort of part of the point. 1393 01:18:14,720 --> 01:18:19,600 And we can question, is it right the way that Daenerys uses the 1394 01:18:19,600 --> 01:18:22,840 Dothraki and that's something that I guess we will see more of 1395 01:18:22,840 --> 01:18:25,040 in the next books. Yeah, you're right, 'cause that 1396 01:18:25,040 --> 01:18:28,280 is obviously a huge question for Paul and and just not just how 1397 01:18:28,280 --> 01:18:30,640 he leads the Fremen, but how he wields power in general, which 1398 01:18:30,640 --> 01:18:32,600 will also be a question with Daenerys. 1399 01:18:32,720 --> 01:18:36,280 And they both will have to battle the Messiah complexes. 1400 01:18:36,280 --> 01:18:38,720 Like Danny is having these thoughts about, you know, I'm, 1401 01:18:38,720 --> 01:18:42,360 I'm lonely. I have all this power to be 1402 01:18:42,360 --> 01:18:44,720 responsible with this power, but it can be overwhelming. 1403 01:18:44,720 --> 01:18:49,080 I mean, she, we've seen her once or twice already, maybe lose her 1404 01:18:49,080 --> 01:18:52,600 temper and do something that she probably shouldn't have done in 1405 01:18:52,600 --> 01:18:54,280 terms of more morality, her own morality. 1406 01:18:54,280 --> 01:18:57,160 It would violate some, you know, things that she has said 1407 01:18:57,160 --> 01:18:58,880 previously she wouldn't do or wouldn't want to do. 1408 01:18:59,320 --> 01:19:01,120 And that's what we've been talking about since the 1409 01:19:01,120 --> 01:19:05,520 beginning, the use of power. And this is where we're going to 1410 01:19:05,520 --> 01:19:07,200 talk about Paul and Bran in a minute. 1411 01:19:07,200 --> 01:19:09,120 And this is where those things diverge. 1412 01:19:09,120 --> 01:19:12,960 Danny did not have good examples of wielding power. 1413 01:19:12,960 --> 01:19:16,080 Well, she had Viserys, and when she thinks of her father, that's 1414 01:19:16,080 --> 01:19:18,160 the mad King. Like that's not a good example, 1415 01:19:18,160 --> 01:19:20,480 and it's it's a good thing that she wasn't raised by him. 1416 01:19:20,840 --> 01:19:25,160 But her one maybe decent example is Rhaegar, who never actually 1417 01:19:25,160 --> 01:19:27,160 was king and she didn't know him. 1418 01:19:27,960 --> 01:19:30,200 Khal Drogo. Like she falls in love with this 1419 01:19:30,200 --> 01:19:34,280 guy, kind of because he's the only strong presence within her 1420 01:19:34,280 --> 01:19:37,200 world, The first person that like treated her halfway 1421 01:19:37,240 --> 01:19:41,800 decently, even though he also, you know married a 13 year old 1422 01:19:41,800 --> 01:19:43,720 or whatever she was, which is pretty sketchy. 1423 01:19:43,720 --> 01:19:48,360 So that's the what just goes to show what Oz good treatment in 1424 01:19:48,360 --> 01:19:51,560 her world. Whereas Bran, when we talk about 1425 01:19:51,560 --> 01:19:53,040 him, that's what's going to be more similar to Paul. 1426 01:19:53,040 --> 01:19:55,120 Like Paul had a pretty good upbringing. 1427 01:19:55,120 --> 01:19:57,640 He had great education, he was treated well and he had a lot of 1428 01:19:57,640 --> 01:20:00,080 people helping him learn, which is similar to more similar to 1429 01:20:00,080 --> 01:20:02,520 Bran, but we'll hold off on that for the for the moment. 1430 01:20:02,560 --> 01:20:04,600 Yeah, yeah. No, that's a great point. 1431 01:20:04,600 --> 01:20:08,680 Like, Paul had every advantage and every luxury and all the 1432 01:20:08,680 --> 01:20:11,000 training and knowledge in the world when he was growing up, 1433 01:20:11,000 --> 01:20:14,200 whereas Daenerys had nothing. She basically grew up on the 1434 01:20:14,200 --> 01:20:17,560 streets. So I think Daenerys, Daenerys 1435 01:20:17,560 --> 01:20:21,320 had a lot of obstacles and hardships that Paul didn't. 1436 01:20:21,360 --> 01:20:23,920 Paul has advantages over her. I I think there's another 1437 01:20:23,920 --> 01:20:27,200 similarity in that you know, like Paul and the Freeman and 1438 01:20:27,200 --> 01:20:31,560 like Daenerys and slavers BAE they they both are characters 1439 01:20:31,560 --> 01:20:35,600 who come into these foreign lands and these foreign cultures 1440 01:20:36,000 --> 01:20:39,400 and they tell they tell these foreign cultures what to do. 1441 01:20:39,640 --> 01:20:42,960 Paul says, hey Freeman you should follow me against Saddam 1442 01:20:42,960 --> 01:20:44,920 and not you should fight in the wedding way. 1443 01:20:45,160 --> 01:20:47,400 And Daenerys comes to slavers BAE and she's like, hey, you 1444 01:20:47,400 --> 01:20:51,360 guys should stop slaving and you guys should treat the people 1445 01:20:51,360 --> 01:20:53,440 differently. And she tries to totally upend 1446 01:20:53,440 --> 01:20:55,960 the social order of this foreign culture. 1447 01:20:56,040 --> 01:20:58,680 And there's lots of, like, complicated ideas about whether 1448 01:20:58,680 --> 01:21:01,840 or not that's a good idea. Both stories have been accused 1449 01:21:01,840 --> 01:21:05,880 of being a white saviour. Story like I remember was at the 1450 01:21:05,880 --> 01:21:10,640 end of Game of Thrones season three when Denaris liberates 1451 01:21:10,840 --> 01:21:13,160 Astepor or is it Marine? And there's that scene. 1452 01:21:13,160 --> 01:21:15,320 Yeah, the crowd surfing scene, yeah. 1453 01:21:15,520 --> 01:21:18,480 Yeah, Daenerys surfs the crowds and it's like this very like 1454 01:21:18,480 --> 01:21:22,160 visually striking thing where all of these like darker skinned 1455 01:21:22,160 --> 01:21:25,960 people are worshipping this white skinned person who has 1456 01:21:25,960 --> 01:21:29,520 just come to save them. And so and so, so both stories 1457 01:21:29,520 --> 01:21:31,520 of being accused of being a white saviour story. 1458 01:21:31,520 --> 01:21:35,280 And you know, I I, I think the, I think the point of June is 1459 01:21:35,280 --> 01:21:39,440 that it's about how Paul is a false Messiah and it's about how 1460 01:21:39,440 --> 01:21:42,960 it is a bad idea and it is wrong how Paul exploits the Fremen. 1461 01:21:43,360 --> 01:21:45,880 Whereas I, I think A Song of Ice and Fire has not quite. 1462 01:21:46,480 --> 01:21:48,240 That storyline has not concluded. 1463 01:21:48,240 --> 01:21:51,040 We don't really know how Daenerys will resolve the 1464 01:21:51,040 --> 01:21:54,400 situation in Slaver's Bay. And I'm really curious how it 1465 01:21:54,400 --> 01:21:56,520 will end. Like, will it end with, you 1466 01:21:56,520 --> 01:22:00,320 know, Slaver's Bay is like, wow, thanks for fixing our culture, 1467 01:22:00,320 --> 01:22:04,440 Daenerys. You sure told us a superior set 1468 01:22:04,480 --> 01:22:06,520 of morals and cultural norms to follow. 1469 01:22:06,520 --> 01:22:08,960 That's great that that's sort of what happens in the Game of 1470 01:22:08,960 --> 01:22:13,200 Thrones TV show where Daenerys inexplicably leaves Dario bloody 1471 01:22:13,200 --> 01:22:17,800 Naharis in charge of. And like, we're we're, we're 1472 01:22:17,800 --> 01:22:21,720 sort of meant to believe that Slavers Bay is fixed now. 1473 01:22:21,720 --> 01:22:24,640 And it's like, really? And again, like George says, he 1474 01:22:24,640 --> 01:22:26,920 doesn't write allegory. But like, there's obvious 1475 01:22:26,920 --> 01:22:31,240 parallels to, you know, Western invasions of the Middle East 1476 01:22:31,240 --> 01:22:34,080 and, you know, Afghanistan and Iraq and some of those 1477 01:22:34,080 --> 01:22:36,560 situations not turning out so well. 1478 01:22:37,000 --> 01:22:39,880 So I'm really curious how the Daenerys and Slavers Bay 1479 01:22:39,880 --> 01:22:44,480 storyline will resolve, and whether it will turn out to have 1480 01:22:44,480 --> 01:22:49,800 been a good idea for Daenerys to try to take over and reform 1481 01:22:49,800 --> 01:22:51,720 Slavers Bay. Yeah and that's something they 1482 01:22:51,720 --> 01:22:55,600 definitely have that is related. Both been pushed outside from 1483 01:22:55,600 --> 01:22:58,920 their claim or their their rightful title but they both 1484 01:22:58,920 --> 01:23:02,320 also have a supernatural destiny. 1485 01:23:02,800 --> 01:23:04,880 They're like a chosen one type figure. 1486 01:23:04,960 --> 01:23:09,160 Paul's kind of an engineered birth I you know manipulation 1487 01:23:09,160 --> 01:23:11,840 over a long period of time trying to create the the perfect 1488 01:23:11,840 --> 01:23:15,360 conditions or whatever. And Danny, it's not quite that 1489 01:23:15,360 --> 01:23:18,680 explicit but she's the mother of Dragons. 1490 01:23:18,680 --> 01:23:22,120 She's the one that brought Dragons back after all this time 1491 01:23:22,240 --> 01:23:26,240 and she had these visions in the first book of Ancestors with 1492 01:23:26,280 --> 01:23:30,440 pale swords and encouraging her to wake the dragon and all this 1493 01:23:30,440 --> 01:23:33,200 stuff. So absolutely similar Child of 1494 01:23:33,200 --> 01:23:34,840 Destiny stuff. And that's why this forks into 1495 01:23:34,840 --> 01:23:38,000 Bran a bit, because he also has a lot of that as well as John. 1496 01:23:38,320 --> 01:23:42,920 So Paul is kind of way. Paul is kind of Danny, Bran and 1497 01:23:42,920 --> 01:23:46,640 John wrapped into one with maybe even some of the other 1498 01:23:46,640 --> 01:23:48,920 characters, maybe even some Sansa thrown in there too. 1499 01:23:48,920 --> 01:23:52,080 I don't know. It's hard to say, but there's a 1500 01:23:52,080 --> 01:23:54,080 lot of these because it's some of these things that we said at 1501 01:23:54,080 --> 01:23:56,240 the beginning. Some of these are just common 1502 01:23:56,560 --> 01:24:00,680 tropes or features of stories that have lots of politics and 1503 01:24:00,680 --> 01:24:03,480 and big power games. But some of them are pretty 1504 01:24:03,480 --> 01:24:07,000 specific and pretty detailed. And yeah, it's kind of a 1505 01:24:07,000 --> 01:24:08,200 challenge to suss these things out. 1506 01:24:08,680 --> 01:24:11,400 Yeah, I mean, it's funny. We were talking about how, like, 1507 01:24:11,520 --> 01:24:15,200 Young Griff and Phaedra Alpha are both like manufactured 1508 01:24:15,360 --> 01:24:18,960 heroes and manufactured rulers, and how that's like, not a good 1509 01:24:18,960 --> 01:24:21,080 idea in the books. But it's true that, you know, 1510 01:24:21,080 --> 01:24:24,800 Paul is the product of this artificial breeding program, and 1511 01:24:24,800 --> 01:24:28,440 he has been bred and trained to be a leader like Young Griff and 1512 01:24:28,520 --> 01:24:31,680 Daenerys, You know, she's the Targaryen heir. 1513 01:24:31,680 --> 01:24:36,840 And she arguably may also have been the product of a breeding 1514 01:24:36,840 --> 01:24:39,160 program because it's not explicit in the books. 1515 01:24:39,160 --> 01:24:41,920 But there are all these hints about how you know many 1516 01:24:41,920 --> 01:24:44,720 Targaryens were into prophecy, like Viserys in House of the 1517 01:24:44,720 --> 01:24:46,520 Dragon. And there's all these hints that 1518 01:24:46,520 --> 01:24:50,160 you know the woods witch said that Jeharis and and his wife 1519 01:24:50,200 --> 01:24:52,000 should marry. And there's these hints about 1520 01:24:52,240 --> 01:24:56,520 Bloodraven may have, you know, like like egg marrying a 1521 01:24:56,520 --> 01:24:59,960 Blackwood who have the old God's northern blood. 1522 01:24:59,960 --> 01:25:02,760 And like that you know that it's a whole long speculative thing. 1523 01:25:02,760 --> 01:25:06,960 But there are hints that the Targaryens may be following a 1524 01:25:07,440 --> 01:25:11,800 certain prophesied bloodline genetic breeding program in 1525 01:25:11,800 --> 01:25:15,280 order to, you know, keep the dragon blood to themselves and 1526 01:25:15,280 --> 01:25:17,520 also and also potentially to produce the Prince That Was 1527 01:25:17,520 --> 01:25:19,120 Promised. That hasn't been revealed in the 1528 01:25:19,120 --> 01:25:21,800 books, but I think that it is hinted at, you know, so. 1529 01:25:21,800 --> 01:25:26,040 So in a way, Paul and Daenerys, they are both manufactured and 1530 01:25:26,040 --> 01:25:29,320 artificially bred to be saviours and heroes. 1531 01:25:29,600 --> 01:25:32,720 But the difference between them and young Griff and Fade Rafa is 1532 01:25:32,720 --> 01:25:35,920 that Paul and Daenerys also have experience, and they also have 1533 01:25:35,920 --> 01:25:40,040 struggle and they also have hardship on top of being bred to 1534 01:25:40,040 --> 01:25:43,480 be heroes and on top of being born into these great 1535 01:25:43,520 --> 01:25:45,360 bloodlines. So that they they are a 1536 01:25:45,360 --> 01:25:49,720 confluence of, like all all the different kinds of power coming 1537 01:25:49,720 --> 01:25:53,520 together in one person. For for good or for I'll. 1538 01:25:53,520 --> 01:25:57,760 Because of course, you know Paul Paul's ascension. 1539 01:25:57,800 --> 01:26:00,320 You know, I won't totally spoil it, but Paul's Ascension turns 1540 01:26:00,320 --> 01:26:04,120 out to be maybe not great. And Daenerys Ascension, at least 1541 01:26:04,120 --> 01:26:07,760 in Game of Thrones season eight, turns out to be maybe not great. 1542 01:26:07,800 --> 01:26:10,840 So that that, yeah, it's a huge part of. 1543 01:26:10,880 --> 01:26:14,400 The mixed bag, 'cause obviously she helped save the world from 1544 01:26:14,600 --> 01:26:17,600 the White Walkers, but then that other part doesn't go so well. 1545 01:26:17,640 --> 01:26:21,640 Jackie C, in the live chat asks if perhaps the dire wolf human 1546 01:26:21,640 --> 01:26:25,120 bond was also engineered. I don't know how much he liked 1547 01:26:25,120 --> 01:26:28,680 these tinfoil theories as these, but I I do like the idea that 1548 01:26:29,000 --> 01:26:32,800 the stocks in some way deliberately acquired the 1549 01:26:32,800 --> 01:26:35,840 magical power to skin change and to walk 'cause there's all these 1550 01:26:35,840 --> 01:26:39,200 bits in the world book about how the Starks, the Starks took the 1551 01:26:39,200 --> 01:26:42,920 daughters and the and the Starks forcibly married the people who 1552 01:26:42,920 --> 01:26:45,520 they conquered, including the Warg King. 1553 01:26:45,800 --> 01:26:48,560 The Starks married the Daughters of the Warg King. 1554 01:26:48,880 --> 01:26:53,160 And perhaps it was marrying the the family of the Warg King that 1555 01:26:53,160 --> 01:26:56,480 gave the Starks the warg blood and the warg genes that allowed 1556 01:26:56,480 --> 01:26:59,200 them to have that power. And you know, if George was 1557 01:26:59,200 --> 01:27:02,000 reading June and you know George has written other stories about 1558 01:27:02,000 --> 01:27:04,240 genetic manipulation and modification. 1559 01:27:04,640 --> 01:27:07,200 I I, I don't know if it'll ever be acknowledged in the books, 1560 01:27:07,200 --> 01:27:09,600 but it but I think it is very reasonable to think that the 1561 01:27:09,600 --> 01:27:12,920 stocks deliberately acquired certain magical genes just as 1562 01:27:12,920 --> 01:27:15,000 the Targaryens have certain magical genes. 1563 01:27:15,240 --> 01:27:19,440 I I mean, Aziz, you and Ashea interviewed George Martin 1564 01:27:19,440 --> 01:27:24,240 recently and George Martin was telling you guys about how you 1565 01:27:24,240 --> 01:27:26,000 know. Yes, like the reason why the 1566 01:27:26,000 --> 01:27:31,080 Targaryens do incest is in order to keep that dragon riding gene 1567 01:27:31,080 --> 01:27:36,320 to themselves and it's part of a sort of eugenic genetic plan. 1568 01:27:36,320 --> 01:27:40,880 So George definitely is aware of and mind is thinking in that in 1569 01:27:40,880 --> 01:27:43,600 that way and everyone should go and check out the history of 1570 01:27:43,600 --> 01:27:45,840 Westeros George Martin interview if you haven't already. 1571 01:27:45,840 --> 01:27:47,200 Thanks for the. Plug Yeah, that was a really 1572 01:27:47,200 --> 01:27:49,320 good interview. We we got a a lot of time with 1573 01:27:49,320 --> 01:27:52,640 him, almost an hour and a half, and we've listened to enough 1574 01:27:52,640 --> 01:27:55,280 interviews with him that we knew when to like try to stop him 1575 01:27:55,280 --> 01:27:57,680 'cause he'll go off for 5 minutes and something that maybe 1576 01:27:57,680 --> 01:28:00,400 he said in other interviews. So we were trying to steer him 1577 01:28:00,640 --> 01:28:03,400 in the direction of new things. And one of the things that came 1578 01:28:03,400 --> 01:28:06,200 from that was him talking about how it wasn't just the the 1579 01:28:06,200 --> 01:28:09,040 Dragon Lords that did that, it was also the blood magicians of 1580 01:28:09,040 --> 01:28:11,480 Valeri that did that. Which makes sense. 1581 01:28:11,480 --> 01:28:14,120 They're the ones that are fiddling with the genes in the 1582 01:28:14,120 --> 01:28:18,160 1st place to make them permanent or to make them dragon bonded or 1583 01:28:18,160 --> 01:28:21,440 to make them something that's similar to skin changing or 1584 01:28:21,680 --> 01:28:24,520 whatever allows them to continuously have the same 1585 01:28:24,520 --> 01:28:27,040 genetic features. Maybe some of that same magic 1586 01:28:27,040 --> 01:28:30,640 exists in Westeros. We did some episodes on how the 1587 01:28:30,880 --> 01:28:34,760 the houses that still have weirwood trees seem to have 1588 01:28:34,960 --> 01:28:38,680 stronger genetic patterns than ones that don't. 1589 01:28:39,200 --> 01:28:42,360 So that might be you know a way for George to have sort of 1590 01:28:42,640 --> 01:28:45,680 implanted that within his world. So yeah, there's a lot of that 1591 01:28:45,680 --> 01:28:49,360 in both and and it's like this is one that's also a not a trope 1592 01:28:49,360 --> 01:28:53,240 but a a fun feature of fantasy and sci-fi. 1593 01:28:53,240 --> 01:28:56,240 Maybe more fantasy because in sci-fi it's more, well, you 1594 01:28:56,240 --> 01:28:59,160 engineer this, you can change someone's DNA that's more like a 1595 01:29:00,160 --> 01:29:03,080 in a sci-fi shadow it can be almost ad hoc, but in a fantasy 1596 01:29:03,080 --> 01:29:05,320 setting it has to be a little mysterious and more like 1597 01:29:06,160 --> 01:29:09,440 underground, a little more random, a little more uncertain. 1598 01:29:10,040 --> 01:29:12,240 And when it comes to buy it is Lovecraft. 1599 01:29:12,520 --> 01:29:16,000 His breeding of people with the Old ones, or the rather the deep 1600 01:29:16,000 --> 01:29:18,280 ones rather, was a recurring feature in some of his stories 1601 01:29:18,280 --> 01:29:20,680 where people would have that within them and it would slowly 1602 01:29:20,680 --> 01:29:23,200 manifest. And if madness slowly manifests 1603 01:29:23,200 --> 01:29:26,080 in the Targaryens and they already have, instead of fish 1604 01:29:26,080 --> 01:29:30,280 features, they have dragon features which we see manifested 1605 01:29:30,280 --> 01:29:32,640 in some of these children that come out horribly wrong. 1606 01:29:33,320 --> 01:29:35,480 Oh yeah, I think it would be wrong to not be open to some of 1607 01:29:35,480 --> 01:29:38,360 these genetic manipulation theories without being too 1608 01:29:38,360 --> 01:29:41,320 specific about them. Yeah, I mean where did the 1609 01:29:41,320 --> 01:29:44,400 Starks get that ability? Why did the this horrible 1610 01:29:44,400 --> 01:29:45,960 tradition of first night persist? 1611 01:29:46,080 --> 01:29:48,520 Well, maybe because they were trying to spread this magical 1612 01:29:48,520 --> 01:29:51,560 DNA around to enough people or maybe that's why people accepted 1613 01:29:51,560 --> 01:29:54,000 it because they could receive magical DNA. 1614 01:29:54,000 --> 01:29:58,200 And that that also explains like the dragon seeds who sometimes 1615 01:29:58,200 --> 01:30:00,920 they considered themselves blessed when a dragon Lord would 1616 01:30:00,920 --> 01:30:04,800 come and sleep with them because they might have a silver haired 1617 01:30:04,800 --> 01:30:07,400 child that. Well the implication being it's 1618 01:30:07,400 --> 01:30:09,640 more than just the silver hair that matters there, you know. 1619 01:30:09,960 --> 01:30:12,200 So obviously this is a big part of Dune as well, the 1620 01:30:12,200 --> 01:30:15,000 manipulation of bloodlines, the certain families breeding with 1621 01:30:15,000 --> 01:30:18,400 other families, certain things being right at the right time. 1622 01:30:18,680 --> 01:30:20,240 I'm not as familiar with the Dune stuff. 1623 01:30:20,240 --> 01:30:22,720 I haven't read Dune nearly as many times as Song of Ice and 1624 01:30:22,720 --> 01:30:26,760 Fire but you you filled that in all pretty well already anyway. 1625 01:30:26,760 --> 01:30:28,840 So yeah the parallels are are very strong there. 1626 01:30:28,960 --> 01:30:30,520 There's other there's other stories that do this like the 1627 01:30:30,520 --> 01:30:32,920 Witcher bloodline you know, chosen one. 1628 01:30:33,160 --> 01:30:35,120 All these these things come out in a lot of different stories 1629 01:30:35,120 --> 01:30:37,720 but I think both of these stories do it particularly well. 1630 01:30:37,800 --> 01:30:39,520 They use they they invert the trope. 1631 01:30:40,080 --> 01:30:42,760 They it's not just Chosen one hero win. 1632 01:30:42,920 --> 01:30:45,960 It's no there's problems with being the Chosen 10. 1633 01:30:46,080 --> 01:30:47,960 Like, what does this do to you, Lord? 1634 01:30:47,960 --> 01:30:49,480 Lord of the Rings has that in a sense. 1635 01:30:49,560 --> 01:30:51,280 Frodo isn't a supernatural being. 1636 01:30:51,280 --> 01:30:54,040 But having held on to the One Ring for so long messes that 1637 01:30:54,040 --> 01:30:57,560 dude up, right? And that's somewhat directly 1638 01:30:57,560 --> 01:30:58,960 supernatural. But it's meant to also be 1639 01:30:58,960 --> 01:31:01,000 metaphorical, because it messed up everyone who held it. 1640 01:31:01,080 --> 01:31:04,040 Yeah, it all comes down to power, I think like like the 1641 01:31:04,040 --> 01:31:07,160 political power, the magical power, the prophetic destined 1642 01:31:07,160 --> 01:31:09,800 power, it's it's all different ways of looking at how does 1643 01:31:09,800 --> 01:31:13,880 power affect people and how does, you know the the the act 1644 01:31:13,880 --> 01:31:17,120 of striving to get what you want, how does that change you 1645 01:31:17,160 --> 01:31:21,120 and and what what is the cost? I think that's a big part of it. 1646 01:31:21,120 --> 01:31:23,760 So while we're talking about, you know, Daenerys with the 1647 01:31:23,760 --> 01:31:27,760 Dothraki and and Paul with the Freeman, there's a lot of 1648 01:31:27,880 --> 01:31:31,760 similarities I think with Jon Snow's relationship with the 1649 01:31:31,760 --> 01:31:35,240 Wildlings and Daenerys's relationship with the Fremen. 1650 01:31:35,280 --> 01:31:38,960 Because the Fremen are are the free people who are outside the 1651 01:31:38,960 --> 01:31:42,120 control of the realm, and the the wildlings call themselves 1652 01:31:42,120 --> 01:31:44,720 the Free Folk. They are outside the control of 1653 01:31:44,760 --> 01:31:49,000 of Westeros and they both are underestimated by the powers 1654 01:31:49,000 --> 01:31:50,720 that be. There's there's some really 1655 01:31:51,000 --> 01:31:54,720 similar passages where the Baron Vladimir and the Emperor, they 1656 01:31:54,720 --> 01:31:57,440 think that there's barely any Fremen, just like a few 1657 01:31:57,680 --> 01:32:01,320 Renegades at at the at the edge of the desert. 1658 01:32:01,440 --> 01:32:04,760 Whereas in reality there's millions of Fremen all through 1659 01:32:04,760 --> 01:32:07,160 the planet. And and similarly, there's a 1660 01:32:07,200 --> 01:32:10,920 moment in Book 3 where Tywin says no, there can't be lots of 1661 01:32:10,920 --> 01:32:14,200 wildlings like the lands beyond the Wall cannot support vast 1662 01:32:14,200 --> 01:32:18,880 numbers of wildlands, when in reality you know, a 100,000 1663 01:32:18,880 --> 01:32:22,080 wildlings turn up at at the Wall later on. 1664 01:32:22,080 --> 01:32:25,680 And and and so they both of these, they're both of these 1665 01:32:25,800 --> 01:32:29,920 underestimated cultures who exist in these extreme climates 1666 01:32:29,920 --> 01:32:33,600 and have adapted to these extreme environments and turn 1667 01:32:33,600 --> 01:32:36,400 out to be a force far greater than anyone expected. 1668 01:32:36,400 --> 01:32:40,360 Yeah, that kind of speaks to how George writes his story in one 1669 01:32:40,360 --> 01:32:43,280 of the major comparisons of it to a lot of other stories, 1670 01:32:43,280 --> 01:32:45,680 whether it's doing or otherwise. He takes, he takes these things 1671 01:32:45,680 --> 01:32:48,280 and he layers them. Like Paul had all these things 1672 01:32:48,280 --> 01:32:50,600 wrapped into one character, whereas we just talked about how 1673 01:32:51,240 --> 01:32:54,200 a lot of these features are spread out between Bran, John 1674 01:32:54,200 --> 01:32:57,400 and Danny. In some cases they're doubled. 1675 01:32:57,560 --> 01:33:01,040 They're like you just said, the Fremen are paralleled in both 1676 01:33:01,040 --> 01:33:05,680 the Dothraki and in the Free Folk, and there's elements to 1677 01:33:05,680 --> 01:33:09,280 them in both how they learn, how they learn to lead, the lessons 1678 01:33:09,280 --> 01:33:12,480 they learn as compared to the lessons of their home culture. 1679 01:33:12,920 --> 01:33:16,280 And how they have to square those two is really important. 1680 01:33:16,280 --> 01:33:19,800 Like everything Paul has grown up with, a lot of it's thrown 1681 01:33:19,800 --> 01:33:21,560 out the door when he meets the Freeman. 1682 01:33:21,840 --> 01:33:24,240 But on the other hand, some of those things line up pretty well 1683 01:33:24,240 --> 01:33:28,560 and he's able to win them over using some of those things. 1684 01:33:28,880 --> 01:33:33,960 But also he just has, you know, they the set up for him. 1685 01:33:34,080 --> 01:33:39,320 You know, they are quoting scripture that, you know, shows 1686 01:33:39,320 --> 01:33:41,240 his arrival is coming. And they're like, oh, this is a 1687 01:33:41,280 --> 01:33:43,080 chosen, this is the person we've expected. 1688 01:33:43,080 --> 01:33:46,040 Which is that, I guess speaks to the the vast amount of 1689 01:33:46,800 --> 01:33:51,360 groundwork laid for Paul before he he took the reins, before he 1690 01:33:51,360 --> 01:33:53,680 was even born, but also before he took the reins of power. 1691 01:33:54,160 --> 01:33:55,640 And for Danny, those things were there too. 1692 01:33:55,640 --> 01:33:57,760 They just weren't laid out for her. 1693 01:33:58,160 --> 01:34:00,440 They were laid out, but she took them. 1694 01:34:00,520 --> 01:34:03,760 They were a part of her family. But she was an afterthought in 1695 01:34:03,760 --> 01:34:08,600 Illyrio's plan until she wasn't, until she proved she was what 1696 01:34:08,600 --> 01:34:09,280 they were like. Oops. 1697 01:34:09,320 --> 01:34:10,960 Actually, she hatched. She did what? 1698 01:34:10,960 --> 01:34:12,080 Now? She hatched dragon eggs. 1699 01:34:12,080 --> 01:34:14,040 OK, let's let's work her into the plan. 1700 01:34:14,080 --> 01:34:15,960 But she wasn't part of it initially. 1701 01:34:15,960 --> 01:34:18,760 And that's kind of what John is. John was an afterthought to a 1702 01:34:18,760 --> 01:34:21,160 lot of the main characters. He's not important. 1703 01:34:21,240 --> 01:34:23,480 He's this kid on the wall, right? 1704 01:34:23,480 --> 01:34:27,160 He was the the bastard son that was the least important of the 1705 01:34:27,160 --> 01:34:28,840 Starks. Obviously as a reader, you don't 1706 01:34:28,840 --> 01:34:31,280 necessarily see it that way. But within his lens of his 1707 01:34:31,280 --> 01:34:34,680 society, he said to the Wall when he's 15, I mean that's 1708 01:34:34,760 --> 01:34:37,480 that's clearly a a child you don't expect to have a big 1709 01:34:37,480 --> 01:34:39,640 future. But obviously that's not how it 1710 01:34:39,640 --> 01:34:41,080 goes at all. He has a huge future. 1711 01:34:41,480 --> 01:34:43,720 And that's the similarity between Paul and and Danny. 1712 01:34:43,720 --> 01:34:47,200 They accepted John wasn't expected to die, though he was 1713 01:34:47,200 --> 01:34:50,800 believed dead in the context of being lost beyond the wall. 1714 01:34:50,920 --> 01:34:53,160 And of course there's a couple times that happens actually, but 1715 01:34:53,640 --> 01:34:55,600 John's believed dead a couple times and now currently we're 1716 01:34:55,600 --> 01:34:58,920 waiting on him being stabbed and whether he's going to get back 1717 01:34:58,920 --> 01:35:00,840 up. So yeah, that one keeps coming. 1718 01:35:00,880 --> 01:35:01,880 Yeah, it's. Yeah. 1719 01:35:01,880 --> 01:35:04,760 I mean we were talking about how you know Paul and Daenerys are 1720 01:35:04,760 --> 01:35:11,840 both sort of manufactured heroes and they come from like a a plan 1721 01:35:11,840 --> 01:35:16,080 like you know Illyrio and Virus were planning to use Daenerys in 1722 01:35:16,080 --> 01:35:19,120 the in their play for the throne and the Benet Jesuit we were 1723 01:35:19,120 --> 01:35:21,840 planning to use Paul with the breeding program. 1724 01:35:21,840 --> 01:35:24,760 But but both of them, they they benefit from that plan but they 1725 01:35:24,760 --> 01:35:29,040 go off the plan and they defy the schemers who wanted to 1726 01:35:29,040 --> 01:35:31,800 manipulate them. And I guess this is sort of mild 1727 01:35:31,800 --> 01:35:33,720 spoilers for the first Dune book. 1728 01:35:33,720 --> 01:35:36,960 But you know Paul, Paul defies the Benet Jezera and he goes 1729 01:35:36,960 --> 01:35:40,000 against their their wishes and their expectations and I think 1730 01:35:40,000 --> 01:35:44,200 in a similar way Daenerys defies the expectations of Varys and 1731 01:35:44,200 --> 01:35:47,760 Elyria with the Dragons and and and her plans for Westeros. 1732 01:35:47,760 --> 01:35:52,200 So, so it it's about defying the scheme, isn't defying the plan 1733 01:35:52,200 --> 01:35:55,120 and choosing your own path, for better or worse. 1734 01:35:55,520 --> 01:35:59,360 And that's, you know, with with the Fremen and the free Folk and 1735 01:35:59,360 --> 01:36:01,880 the Dothraki. Like these are both these great 1736 01:36:01,880 --> 01:36:07,080 armies that the heroes adopt control over, and they use these 1737 01:36:07,080 --> 01:36:10,760 armies potentially to take over the realm and and in all these 1738 01:36:10,760 --> 01:36:13,920 cases there's an implication that it might not be such a good 1739 01:36:13,920 --> 01:36:16,480 idea to do so. Because you know, without 1740 01:36:16,480 --> 01:36:20,160 spoiling too much, the Fremen's influence on the universe is 1741 01:36:20,600 --> 01:36:23,240 maybe not good. And you know, John in his 1742 01:36:23,240 --> 01:36:26,720 chapters thinks a lot about how you know I want to let the 1743 01:36:26,720 --> 01:36:30,040 wildlings through the Wall. But if I do that, there will be 1744 01:36:30,040 --> 01:36:33,880 thousands of wildling Raiders who might want to raid the north 1745 01:36:33,880 --> 01:36:36,520 and burn the north and steal stuff and and kill people. 1746 01:36:36,520 --> 01:36:39,840 And and similarly the Dothraki Denarius worries that the 1747 01:36:39,840 --> 01:36:42,040 Dothraki could cause chaos in Westeros. 1748 01:36:42,400 --> 01:36:45,160 So you know the the Fremen and the and the wildlings and the 1749 01:36:45,160 --> 01:36:50,440 Dothraki are all these powerful tools but who can't but but who 1750 01:36:50,440 --> 01:36:53,320 may cause as much damage as as good. 1751 01:36:53,760 --> 01:36:56,920 So there's a lot of danger and complexity there. 1752 01:36:57,080 --> 01:37:01,400 I I also like how you know each of these cultures has a strong 1753 01:37:01,400 --> 01:37:07,760 male leader who is respectable in certain ways but who the hero 1754 01:37:07,760 --> 01:37:10,840 screws over. So like the leader of the Fremen 1755 01:37:10,880 --> 01:37:18,280 in Dune is Stilgar and Stilgar is this really impressive, smart 1756 01:37:18,280 --> 01:37:22,840 thoughtful capable powerful guy. And you know I guess mild 1757 01:37:22,840 --> 01:37:29,240 spoilers but you know Stilgar. Stilgar gets he becomes less and 1758 01:37:29,240 --> 01:37:31,480 he is reduced through his relationship with Paul. 1759 01:37:31,480 --> 01:37:35,880 He becomes a follower and and he becomes less of like his own man 1760 01:37:35,880 --> 01:37:40,240 as a result of Paul and there's a tragedy to that and I think in 1761 01:37:40,240 --> 01:37:43,240 a similar way like John sort of supplants Mance Raider. 1762 01:37:43,600 --> 01:37:46,720 You know Mance Raider. John likes Mance Raider and and 1763 01:37:46,720 --> 01:37:49,200 Mance is almost like a father figure to John. 1764 01:37:49,200 --> 01:37:52,960 Almost like how Stilgar is is a little bit of a father figure to 1765 01:37:52,960 --> 01:37:57,800 Paul and yet John inadvertently causes Mance Raider's downfall. 1766 01:37:57,800 --> 01:38:00,240 He is still alive in the books, but you know Mance Raider is 1767 01:38:00,240 --> 01:38:04,600 much humbled by John. And I think the other parallel 1768 01:38:04,600 --> 01:38:07,080 is, is Drogo. Karl Drogo is the leader of the 1769 01:38:07,080 --> 01:38:12,800 Dothraki and I think he Drogo is less admirable than Mans and 1770 01:38:12,920 --> 01:38:15,200 Stilgar. But there is still a kind of 1771 01:38:15,200 --> 01:38:18,440 tragedy in that. Drogo, you know, is beloved at 1772 01:38:18,440 --> 01:38:22,320 least by Daenerys and yet Daenerys actions cause Drogo's 1773 01:38:22,320 --> 01:38:24,760 downfall. Daenerys tries to save Drogo 1774 01:38:24,760 --> 01:38:27,840 from, you know, that infected wound, but you know Miri Mazda, 1775 01:38:28,840 --> 01:38:31,400 her influence may possibly have caused Drogo's death. 1776 01:38:31,400 --> 01:38:34,520 Or at least you know, Daenerys. Daenerys involvement in you 1777 01:38:34,520 --> 01:38:37,520 know, Drogo being turned into a catatonic zombie and you know 1778 01:38:37,520 --> 01:38:39,920 it's Daenerys who puts the pillow on Drogo's head. 1779 01:38:40,080 --> 01:38:41,800 So. So in all of these cases, the 1780 01:38:41,800 --> 01:38:48,680 hero causes the downfall of A at least semi likeable leader and 1781 01:38:48,680 --> 01:38:51,360 and there's there's something messed up about all of those. 1782 01:38:51,400 --> 01:38:53,040 Yeah. Even if they're not likeable, 1783 01:38:53,040 --> 01:38:54,800 you like you say they're not like a good person. 1784 01:38:54,800 --> 01:38:58,240 Like Drogo is not a good person. But you still you're still you 1785 01:38:58,240 --> 01:39:00,680 still find yourself curious what he's going to do. 1786 01:39:01,160 --> 01:39:03,760 Wanted to see him actually invade. 1787 01:39:03,760 --> 01:39:05,880 Well, like a lot of us wanted to see what happened if he invaded 1788 01:39:05,880 --> 01:39:07,400 Westeros. And like how is that going to go 1789 01:39:07,400 --> 01:39:10,080 Like these aren't real people. You know I'm not I'm not wishing 1790 01:39:10,080 --> 01:39:13,040 real suffering on the world. I want to see what happens if 1791 01:39:13,040 --> 01:39:15,480 this dude invades Westeros. I remember a good friend of mine 1792 01:39:15,480 --> 01:39:18,840 was like reading the books and it's like, I can't wait to see 1793 01:39:18,840 --> 01:39:20,480 what Karl Drogo does when he gets to Westeros. 1794 01:39:20,480 --> 01:39:26,080 And I'm like, you know, this was like 10 years ago, but so funny 1795 01:39:26,080 --> 01:39:27,840 stuff like that. But yeah, you're right. 1796 01:39:27,840 --> 01:39:32,640 Like that's a similar thing. Like, it goes to the same power 1797 01:39:32,640 --> 01:39:34,040 theme that we keep coming back to. 1798 01:39:34,200 --> 01:39:37,440 George talks about it in terms of magic using a metaphor that I 1799 01:39:37,440 --> 01:39:42,920 like, which is sorcery is like a sword without a hilt, and these 1800 01:39:43,680 --> 01:39:48,720 or like peoples that you lead to victory against an important 1801 01:39:48,720 --> 01:39:51,840 opponent only to have what do you do with them afterwards is 1802 01:39:51,840 --> 01:39:54,880 that same kind of thing. The Dothraki are a sword without 1803 01:39:54,880 --> 01:39:56,520 a hilt. The Fremen are a sword without a 1804 01:39:56,520 --> 01:39:57,880 hilt. Once they have a certain amount 1805 01:39:57,880 --> 01:40:03,120 of power or reach or whatever, then yeah, they're they're you 1806 01:40:03,120 --> 01:40:05,520 can't put that sword back in the scabbard afterwards. 1807 01:40:05,960 --> 01:40:09,320 And that's yeah, that's a definite strong power theme 1808 01:40:09,320 --> 01:40:14,640 between these two stories. There's an interesting line in 1809 01:40:14,640 --> 01:40:18,160 in Melisandre's POV chapter where she thinks that she's 1810 01:40:18,160 --> 01:40:22,200 she's sort of pretending to be helping the Wildlings and Mance 1811 01:40:22,200 --> 01:40:24,000 Raider. But internally, Melisandre 1812 01:40:24,000 --> 01:40:26,160 thinks, yeah, these wildlings are doomed. 1813 01:40:26,240 --> 01:40:30,200 The free folk Mance Raider is doomed, they will go extinct, 1814 01:40:30,200 --> 01:40:32,960 There's no helping them. And it's like this really dark, 1815 01:40:32,960 --> 01:40:35,320 like messed up thing that, you know, Melisandre and the 1816 01:40:35,320 --> 01:40:37,840 characters are using the free folk, but Melisandre expects 1817 01:40:37,840 --> 01:40:41,800 they're doomed. And, you know, moderate, I 1818 01:40:41,800 --> 01:40:45,920 suppose spoilers for book four of Dune. 1819 01:40:45,920 --> 01:40:50,200 But, you know, the the Fremen we learn are also a doomed people 1820 01:40:50,200 --> 01:40:53,800 because ultimately their culture does basically go extinct and 1821 01:40:53,800 --> 01:40:59,080 they become this pathetic museum Fremen culture and you know, 1822 01:40:59,080 --> 01:41:00,640 they lose their original lifestyle. 1823 01:41:00,640 --> 01:41:03,240 And and you know I think that I think that's I think that is 1824 01:41:03,240 --> 01:41:06,280 inevitable for the wildlings in A Song of Ice and Fire because 1825 01:41:06,280 --> 01:41:10,000 you know the Wildlings have mostly already been killed by 1826 01:41:10,000 --> 01:41:13,200 the White Walkers I think and you know like the and and 1827 01:41:13,200 --> 01:41:15,440 they've broken against the wall and they're having to leave 1828 01:41:15,440 --> 01:41:17,840 their homeland. And you know, if even if the 1829 01:41:17,840 --> 01:41:21,440 wildlings survive, I, I I'm not sure the wildlings will survive 1830 01:41:21,440 --> 01:41:25,120 beyond the Wall, which I think if they're not existing and 1831 01:41:25,120 --> 01:41:30,120 living in their in their natural environment, in their in the 1832 01:41:30,120 --> 01:41:32,880 place that their culture is based on, can their culture 1833 01:41:32,880 --> 01:41:35,800 survive, you know, so, so I see a lot of similarities there 1834 01:41:35,800 --> 01:41:40,000 with. Yeah, it's a great one because 1835 01:41:40,000 --> 01:41:44,040 it's it's it's also succinctly said by another character in the 1836 01:41:44,040 --> 01:41:46,560 same parallel. We're making witches with Mary 1837 01:41:46,560 --> 01:41:52,000 Mazdur, she mocks Danny. When Danny's like, hey, I saved 1838 01:41:52,000 --> 01:41:54,080 your life and she's like, not really. 1839 01:41:54,720 --> 01:41:58,360 You say you literally saved my life, but everyone I knew and 1840 01:41:58,360 --> 01:42:02,040 loved in my home, all those things are gone. 1841 01:42:02,040 --> 01:42:04,040 Like, what is my my? My life sucks now. 1842 01:42:04,040 --> 01:42:05,360 I don't even really want to be alive. 1843 01:42:05,360 --> 01:42:06,760 Like, I kind of would rather be dead. 1844 01:42:06,760 --> 01:42:08,160 I wish I died with everybody else. 1845 01:42:08,160 --> 01:42:12,080 You know, I have nothing now. And that's this. 1846 01:42:12,080 --> 01:42:14,240 That's a similar thing, you know, with these, Like, if the 1847 01:42:14,240 --> 01:42:19,120 wildlings aren't free, if they're not living the way they 1848 01:42:19,120 --> 01:42:21,120 lived, then yeah, they are. They might still be alive, but 1849 01:42:21,120 --> 01:42:23,600 they're no longer wildlings. It's not as harsh as Miriam 1850 01:42:23,600 --> 01:42:25,760 Mastur, more a gradual thing, right? 1851 01:42:25,760 --> 01:42:28,440 It'd be something that plays out over generations, like it's like 1852 01:42:28,440 --> 01:42:30,760 you say it does with the Fremen. It's the same fate for those 1853 01:42:30,760 --> 01:42:32,480 people. It's a it's a way of life that 1854 01:42:32,640 --> 01:42:37,560 that dies with the events of the story or starts to die that you 1855 01:42:37,560 --> 01:42:40,720 see that that boulder start to roll downhill, even if it takes 1856 01:42:40,720 --> 01:42:42,840 a while to get to the bottom. Yeah, that's a great point about 1857 01:42:42,840 --> 01:42:45,800 Miriam Mastur because, yeah, we were wondering earlier if you 1858 01:42:45,800 --> 01:42:48,840 know a song, Device and Fire ever will sort of, you know, 1859 01:42:48,840 --> 01:42:54,280 question more Daenerys savior role with Slaves Bay and 1860 01:42:54,280 --> 01:42:56,240 everything. Yeah, I guess even from book 1861 01:42:56,240 --> 01:42:59,880 one, the Song of Ice and Fire books have said, hey, Daenerys, 1862 01:42:59,880 --> 01:43:03,600 like when you try and come in and save these other cultures, 1863 01:43:03,960 --> 01:43:06,840 sometimes it's not as simple as you think, and sometimes you're 1864 01:43:06,840 --> 01:43:08,560 not being as helpful as you think you are. 1865 01:43:08,560 --> 01:43:12,960 And yeah, Mirror Mazda is a really, really strong point in 1866 01:43:12,960 --> 01:43:15,360 that direction for sure. Yeah, they make it clear. 1867 01:43:15,360 --> 01:43:18,000 And I think Dune does this as well by showing you have, well, 1868 01:43:18,000 --> 01:43:21,800 when it's an obvious brutal enemy, your choices are simpler, 1869 01:43:21,800 --> 01:43:24,000 but you can still lead to harm later. 1870 01:43:24,200 --> 01:43:27,680 Like Danny, it's going to be very straightforward. 1871 01:43:27,680 --> 01:43:29,840 Like, yeah, well, Dothraki are bad, but they're not as bad as 1872 01:43:29,840 --> 01:43:32,840 the others, killing everyone, literally wiping them all out. 1873 01:43:33,440 --> 01:43:36,240 And so that's the that's part of the conundrum. 1874 01:43:36,960 --> 01:43:44,840 But you also have this ground of well, you can't just leave those 1875 01:43:44,840 --> 01:43:47,560 people behind either. Like the Dothraki. 1876 01:43:47,560 --> 01:43:52,280 Those are you know you don't it's wrong to wipe them out 1877 01:43:52,280 --> 01:43:54,480 entirely. And with Slavers Bay, the 1878 01:43:54,480 --> 01:43:57,560 example is OK, Well, George made it the worst possible people. 1879 01:43:57,560 --> 01:44:00,600 You could just show that even if you're trying to reform a 1880 01:44:00,600 --> 01:44:03,360 culture that absolutely definitely is evil, like, 1881 01:44:03,360 --> 01:44:06,360 there's no doubt Slavers Bay. Like he he goes so far as to 1882 01:44:06,360 --> 01:44:10,440 have them have hairstyles of horns. 1883 01:44:10,880 --> 01:44:12,600 Right. They shape their hair into horns 1884 01:44:12,600 --> 01:44:16,320 like it's it's it's hell. Like it's meant to remind you of 1885 01:44:17,000 --> 01:44:19,000 Western Christian versions of hell. 1886 01:44:19,000 --> 01:44:23,560 There's people living in an extreme heat with constant 1887 01:44:24,200 --> 01:44:29,240 endless brutality, and the people inflicting this are ultra 1888 01:44:29,240 --> 01:44:33,400 rich people with horns. You know, like what's it's The 1889 01:44:33,400 --> 01:44:37,520 metaphors are really strong. So if you can't fix that, if the 1890 01:44:37,520 --> 01:44:40,120 moral question isn't whether you should fix that, it's how do you 1891 01:44:40,120 --> 01:44:44,040 fix that, right? And if you can't even fix that, 1892 01:44:44,040 --> 01:44:45,640 then how do you do? How do you handle these much 1893 01:44:45,640 --> 01:44:49,040 more nuanced situations? How do you like Yes, it's right, 1894 01:44:49,040 --> 01:44:50,480 right? The Emperor is trying to kill 1895 01:44:50,480 --> 01:44:51,200 your family. You. 1896 01:44:51,320 --> 01:44:54,480 It's fair for you to stop him. Let's look at all the You're 1897 01:44:54,480 --> 01:44:57,880 also affecting the entire Galaxy, or the entire known 1898 01:44:57,880 --> 01:44:59,680 human Galaxy? Yeah, yeah, I I think you're 1899 01:44:59,680 --> 01:45:02,680 right that, like, George makes the cultures of Slavers Bay 1900 01:45:02,680 --> 01:45:05,240 cartoonishly evil. So that we can ask, you know, if 1901 01:45:05,240 --> 01:45:09,720 Daenerys, if Denaris can't reform these cartoonishly evil 1902 01:45:09,720 --> 01:45:14,600 slavers who literally eat puppies without creating, 1903 01:45:15,240 --> 01:45:19,360 without creating like a moral quagmire, then how on earth can 1904 01:45:19,360 --> 01:45:22,840 Denaris hope to take over Westeros without creating a 1905 01:45:22,840 --> 01:45:27,360 similar mess of of of of moral complications. 1906 01:45:27,360 --> 01:45:29,200 So, so yeah, I think that's what it's going for. 1907 01:45:29,320 --> 01:45:31,840 It's maybe getting a little too deep into just Danny 1908 01:45:31,840 --> 01:45:34,400 specifically, but like, look who her advisors are. 1909 01:45:34,400 --> 01:45:38,120 She's got like, she's going to have like, Makoro and Tyrion and 1910 01:45:38,760 --> 01:45:40,560 Dora. Maybe if he's allowed. 1911 01:45:40,560 --> 01:45:43,320 These are not like. The Tattered Prince. 1912 01:45:43,920 --> 01:45:47,280 The Tattered Prince. Yeah, like these are her people 1913 01:45:47,280 --> 01:45:49,920 giving her advice. Like a brown Ben Plum, you know? 1914 01:45:49,920 --> 01:45:52,120 Like she knows these aren't good people, necessarily. 1915 01:45:52,120 --> 01:45:54,480 But still, this is who's telling her things. 1916 01:45:54,480 --> 01:45:58,720 You know, Kirsten is a good man, but he's not, like, savvy enough 1917 01:45:58,720 --> 01:46:01,120 to give her advice on these trickier issues anyway, and and 1918 01:46:01,120 --> 01:46:02,640 he might not be around much longer. 1919 01:46:03,880 --> 01:46:06,080 Yeah. Compared to Paul, who has like 1920 01:46:06,080 --> 01:46:10,960 the most over the top, like virtuous wise people, you know 1921 01:46:10,960 --> 01:46:13,840 the best of the best are his advisors, and Daenerys's 1922 01:46:13,840 --> 01:46:15,640 advisors are the worst of the worst. 1923 01:46:18,120 --> 01:46:20,720 Yeah, it's an it's a really interesting dichotomy that the 1924 01:46:20,720 --> 01:46:23,360 George lays out early on with the the type of education that 1925 01:46:23,360 --> 01:46:25,600 the different people are getting in their their environment, 1926 01:46:25,600 --> 01:46:27,920 their nature, nature versus nurture. 1927 01:46:27,920 --> 01:46:31,720 So part of the horror of Slavers Bay is of course the Unsullied. 1928 01:46:31,760 --> 01:46:36,440 Who are these children who are forced to kill puppies and who 1929 01:46:36,440 --> 01:46:40,480 are castrated and made into eunuchs and used as slave 1930 01:46:40,480 --> 01:46:42,560 soldiers? And we think there are some 1931 01:46:42,560 --> 01:46:44,920 similarities between the Unsullied and the Sadaqa. 1932 01:46:45,400 --> 01:46:49,240 I'd say so, because they're both trained from a very young age, 1933 01:46:49,240 --> 01:46:53,280 if not birth, and they're born into an environment there's 1934 01:46:53,440 --> 01:46:57,160 absolutely no escape from. And that you you must turn into 1935 01:46:57,160 --> 01:46:58,600 this thing that they're making you become. 1936 01:46:58,840 --> 01:47:02,080 It's a lot like, well, it's definitely slavery in the 1937 01:47:02,080 --> 01:47:05,280 Unsullied case, even even, you know, accepting maybe after 1938 01:47:05,280 --> 01:47:08,040 Danny's freed them. And with the Sadaqa, they're 1939 01:47:08,520 --> 01:47:12,080 basically a slave army, right? Like it's not quite that simple. 1940 01:47:12,280 --> 01:47:14,680 I don't think they've got a retirement plan, no. 1941 01:47:17,640 --> 01:47:20,960 And they're pretty incredibly tough. 1942 01:47:20,960 --> 01:47:22,120 Like they're really hard to beat. 1943 01:47:22,120 --> 01:47:25,520 You know they're they're perhaps the toughest thing there is in 1944 01:47:25,520 --> 01:47:28,280 their in their world. Although Saratakar, obviously 1945 01:47:28,280 --> 01:47:30,320 tested by the Fremen, that's the ongoing thing. 1946 01:47:30,360 --> 01:47:33,800 And the Unsullied, we'll have to see what happens with them. 1947 01:47:33,800 --> 01:47:36,760 You know, how they stand up to armies of dead or whatever else 1948 01:47:36,760 --> 01:47:38,960 they face. I'm not quite sure about that 1949 01:47:38,960 --> 01:47:42,040 yet but seems like that'll be even though they're not 1950 01:47:42,040 --> 01:47:45,880 necessarily murderous you know raping savages or whatever you 1951 01:47:45,880 --> 01:47:47,800 want to call what's going to be left behind. 1952 01:47:47,800 --> 01:47:49,960 They still something still has to be done with them. 1953 01:47:49,960 --> 01:47:52,000 They still have to have lives after the fact. 1954 01:47:52,440 --> 01:47:56,400 And they may be rather than a danger to society, society might 1955 01:47:56,400 --> 01:47:58,600 be a danger to them because everyone's going to, you know, 1956 01:47:58,600 --> 01:48:00,800 they might be shunned. They might not be accepted. 1957 01:48:00,800 --> 01:48:02,160 They might. And they, I don't know. 1958 01:48:02,280 --> 01:48:04,840 Westeros isn't going to be a kind place to them, Even if 1959 01:48:04,840 --> 01:48:08,960 they're heroic, even if their actions are are important and I 1960 01:48:08,960 --> 01:48:10,600 don't know that they'll be treated well, might be like 1961 01:48:10,640 --> 01:48:13,680 another opportunity for allegory after the fact that veterans not 1962 01:48:13,680 --> 01:48:17,280 being treated well, you know, by the population that benefited 1963 01:48:17,280 --> 01:48:20,520 from their service. Grey Worm will simply start his 1964 01:48:20,520 --> 01:48:24,280 own noble house, Aziz, just like his parents. 1965 01:48:25,280 --> 01:48:28,320 Easy solution. Like, yeah, like the the 1966 01:48:28,320 --> 01:48:31,880 Unsullied themselves are not necessarily cruel warriors in 1967 01:48:31,880 --> 01:48:34,440 the way that the Sadacar are, but the creation of the 1968 01:48:34,440 --> 01:48:39,360 Unsullied is unbelievably cruel. And I think that that cruelty is 1969 01:48:39,360 --> 01:48:42,720 meant meant to reflect on the society that creates them. 1970 01:48:42,720 --> 01:48:47,960 Like the cruelty of the Sadacar shows how bad and unjust the 1971 01:48:47,960 --> 01:48:51,840 Kirino Empire is, and the cruelty of the Unsullied 1972 01:48:51,840 --> 01:48:55,480 creation shows how cruel and unjust Astapor and Slaver's Bay 1973 01:48:55,880 --> 01:48:57,720 is. So in both cases it's it sort of 1974 01:48:57,720 --> 01:49:00,840 justifies those regimes being overthrown, I think. 1975 01:49:01,320 --> 01:49:03,760 I I also think there's similarities between the Sadaqa 1976 01:49:03,760 --> 01:49:08,520 and the Kingsguard because the Sadaqa are like the Imperial 1977 01:49:08,520 --> 01:49:13,040 Loyalist best warriors who who serve the Emperor, and the 1978 01:49:13,040 --> 01:49:17,360 Kingsguard are the supposedly the best warriors who are most 1979 01:49:17,360 --> 01:49:20,280 loyal to the Kingsguard. But of course, we learned that, 1980 01:49:20,320 --> 01:49:24,120 you know, Kingsguard are sometimes not loyal and they are 1981 01:49:24,120 --> 01:49:27,680 corrupt and they're sometimes not even very good warriors like 1982 01:49:27,680 --> 01:49:31,280 Boros Blanche. And similarly, the Sadaka, we 1983 01:49:31,280 --> 01:49:34,280 are told, have become weaker because they're corrupt and 1984 01:49:34,280 --> 01:49:36,680 they're arrogant and they're no longer as powerful as they used 1985 01:49:36,680 --> 01:49:37,360 to be. So. 1986 01:49:37,680 --> 01:49:40,120 So the Kingsguard and the Sadaka both represent like the 1987 01:49:40,120 --> 01:49:44,400 degradation and the corruption of the regimes. 1988 01:49:44,400 --> 01:49:46,960 That's a great point. You you see the Kingsguard, the 1989 01:49:46,960 --> 01:49:51,040 early one and it's something that's spoken of in the books in 1990 01:49:51,040 --> 01:49:53,240 several places by several characters and how great the 1991 01:49:53,240 --> 01:49:56,160 Kingsguard used to be even in Aries's time. 1992 01:49:56,160 --> 01:49:58,520 And it's debatable whether those guys were actually great 1993 01:49:58,520 --> 01:50:00,920 morally, but they were definitely great warriors and 1994 01:50:00,920 --> 01:50:03,920 yeah, like in the current times, yeah these guys are mixture of 1995 01:50:04,120 --> 01:50:07,800 horrible people and just incompetent people and and 1996 01:50:08,760 --> 01:50:10,400 people who don't belong like Jamie. 1997 01:50:11,800 --> 01:50:14,200 So right. Even though he was, he doesn't 1998 01:50:14,200 --> 01:50:15,880 belong for a couple of reasons possibly. 1999 01:50:15,880 --> 01:50:19,720 But either way, yeah, it the the parallel is very strong, even 2000 01:50:19,720 --> 01:50:21,560 though the Kingsguard is a much smaller order. 2001 01:50:21,760 --> 01:50:25,720 And the the Night's Watch isn't maybe as corrupt, but it is 2002 01:50:25,720 --> 01:50:28,880 another example of an institution that fell apart over 2003 01:50:28,880 --> 01:50:32,600 time and that's causing big problems in this story. 2004 01:50:32,600 --> 01:50:34,040 I mean, they're assassinating their own leader. 2005 01:50:34,280 --> 01:50:36,080 It's not what you're supposed to do, it's. 2006 01:50:36,320 --> 01:50:38,440 Not a. Kingsguard did that too, yeah. 2007 01:50:38,440 --> 01:50:40,320 Both the Kingsguard and the Nights Watch have killed their 2008 01:50:40,320 --> 01:50:42,720 own leader in the in the story you know. 2009 01:50:43,320 --> 01:50:45,160 Yeah, yeah. The the the rot in the 2010 01:50:45,160 --> 01:50:47,760 institutions represents the rot in the regime. 2011 01:50:47,840 --> 01:50:50,280 Yeah and you see these things within some of these other 2012 01:50:50,280 --> 01:50:52,320 organizations we and that how that's a recurring theme with 2013 01:50:52,360 --> 01:50:55,600 someone like Ned who leaves a legacy of people wanting to be 2014 01:50:55,600 --> 01:50:58,160 like him because he did good things and that's a positive 2015 01:50:58,160 --> 01:51:01,960 inspiration versus the the exam prior example of of someone like 2016 01:51:01,960 --> 01:51:06,000 Tywin who inspired the opposite And then we have the same with 2017 01:51:06,000 --> 01:51:10,960 like a a Baron Harkonnen who he's worried about his own 2018 01:51:10,960 --> 01:51:15,160 family killing him right. And Tywin's own family does kill 2019 01:51:15,160 --> 01:51:17,880 him, you know so. Yeah, great point. 2020 01:51:18,080 --> 01:51:19,520 Yeah. It it's not only like 2021 01:51:19,520 --> 01:51:23,680 institutional corruption, it's it's it's families are 2022 01:51:23,680 --> 01:51:26,440 dysfunctional. You know, like the Carino family 2023 01:51:26,440 --> 01:51:28,520 is so messed up and dysfunctional and the Lannister 2024 01:51:28,520 --> 01:51:30,840 family is so messed up into functional and so are the 2025 01:51:31,320 --> 01:51:33,560 Targaryens. I mean, you know that that they. 2026 01:51:33,680 --> 01:51:35,840 I mean, even the Starks, I mean all of the families are 2027 01:51:35,840 --> 01:51:37,440 dysfunctional in their own little ways. 2028 01:51:37,840 --> 01:51:40,960 Even the Atrades, like, you know, the sort of tension with 2029 01:51:40,960 --> 01:51:43,880 with Lato and Jessica and Jessica's resentment that Lato 2030 01:51:43,880 --> 01:51:46,920 never married Jessica. You know, like, I mean it's 2031 01:51:46,920 --> 01:51:49,920 like, it's like what? What is it that that quote about 2032 01:51:49,920 --> 01:51:53,400 how, you know, happy families are all the same, but unhappy 2033 01:51:53,400 --> 01:51:55,720 families are all unique and interesting. 2034 01:51:56,160 --> 01:51:59,040 There are no perfect happy families in Westeros. 2035 01:51:59,040 --> 01:52:01,680 Or if there are, George Martin isn't writing about them. 2036 01:52:03,440 --> 01:52:05,120 Yeah, they're they're not very fun. 2037 01:52:05,120 --> 01:52:08,200 Let's leave them alone. I always think that's what's 2038 01:52:08,200 --> 01:52:10,280 happening on the Arbor. Like, except for now that you're 2039 01:52:10,280 --> 01:52:12,440 on, ships are hitting there. I'm like, where where is the 2040 01:52:12,440 --> 01:52:15,680 best place to be? Like deep inland at the Arbor? 2041 01:52:16,280 --> 01:52:20,720 The Ironborn can't get to just have wine and it's warm. 2042 01:52:20,720 --> 01:52:22,840 Winter's definitely not going to get down there, you know. 2043 01:52:23,560 --> 01:52:24,680 Yeah, maybe. Maybe I. 2044 01:52:24,680 --> 01:52:26,040 Don't know where that would be in Dune either. 2045 01:52:26,760 --> 01:52:29,720 Yeah, yeah, maybe. Maybe the house Tolland or 2046 01:52:29,720 --> 01:52:32,600 something is is having a perfectly happy idyllic life 2047 01:52:32,760 --> 01:52:36,240 while all the messed up families are off fighting for power. 2048 01:52:37,240 --> 01:52:40,560 I I'd like to respond to some super chats and then I'd like to 2049 01:52:40,560 --> 01:52:45,680 move on to a slightly more spoilery zone as we start to 2050 01:52:45,680 --> 01:52:49,680 talk more about some of the later in game book type stuff. 2051 01:52:49,680 --> 01:52:52,960 So thank you for the Super chat from Isaac who says what do you 2052 01:52:52,960 --> 01:52:55,720 think of the themes that June and A Song of Ice and Fire both 2053 01:52:55,720 --> 01:52:57,920 explore the most and how does it compare? 2054 01:52:57,920 --> 01:53:00,120 I mean we've talked a lot about power, haven't we? 2055 01:53:00,120 --> 01:53:03,240 They both obviously are stories about power, and they're stories 2056 01:53:03,240 --> 01:53:07,320 about heroism and questioning heroism and how power changes 2057 01:53:07,320 --> 01:53:09,560 people. It's also about like prescience 2058 01:53:09,560 --> 01:53:13,640 and plans and prophecies and the dangers of those things. 2059 01:53:13,640 --> 01:53:16,560 And we're going to talk about those things in depth soon. 2060 01:53:17,160 --> 01:53:22,680 Thanks for the Super chat from Gladys's bastard son Gladys 2061 01:53:22,680 --> 01:53:27,320 Pike, who says do you think that June Part 2 will be any good? 2062 01:53:27,640 --> 01:53:29,240 What do you recognize this? I think so. 2063 01:53:29,240 --> 01:53:31,840 I mean, part one was pretty darn solid. 2064 01:53:31,840 --> 01:53:36,040 I mean, I enjoyed it a lot. And I think there's no reason 2065 01:53:36,040 --> 01:53:39,280 not to think Part 2 will be pretty good at at least if not 2066 01:53:39,280 --> 01:53:42,080 better than pretty good. So I'm pretty optimistic yet 2067 01:53:42,080 --> 01:53:44,120 I'm. I'm not usually that optimistic 2068 01:53:44,120 --> 01:53:45,240 these days. There's so many. 2069 01:53:46,160 --> 01:53:50,040 If it was the first movie, I I wouldn't have been so sure. 2070 01:53:50,040 --> 01:53:52,800 But now that they've done a good job with the with the first 2071 01:53:52,800 --> 01:53:54,640 movie, I have more confidence in the second one. 2072 01:53:55,280 --> 01:53:57,360 So yeah, what about you? Yeah, I'm. 2073 01:53:57,360 --> 01:53:59,680 I'm hopeful. I, I noticed that at least from 2074 01:53:59,680 --> 01:54:03,200 the trailers, it looks like June Part 2 will be different from 2075 01:54:03,200 --> 01:54:05,920 the books much more than June Part one was. 2076 01:54:05,920 --> 01:54:08,600 June part one was pretty faithful to the books. 2077 01:54:08,600 --> 01:54:12,000 It just cut out a few things. Whereas June Part 2 seems to be 2078 01:54:12,000 --> 01:54:14,680 introducing whole new plot lines that weren't in the books at all 2079 01:54:14,680 --> 01:54:18,720 involving like Irulan and Shaddam and Riskier. 2080 01:54:19,200 --> 01:54:21,160 Yeah, it's riskier. Like those things could be 2081 01:54:21,160 --> 01:54:24,040 improvements, but I I hope that they don't you know mess with 2082 01:54:24,440 --> 01:54:26,360 the art of what makes the books good. 2083 01:54:26,680 --> 01:54:29,280 I I think that Danny Villeneuve's intentions are good 2084 01:54:29,280 --> 01:54:31,760 and I think that he wants to capture what the books are about 2085 01:54:31,760 --> 01:54:33,720 South. So fingers crossed. 2086 01:54:34,520 --> 01:54:38,080 Thanks for the Super chat from film cram Who says, are you 2087 01:54:38,080 --> 01:54:41,520 suggesting that like the quiz at's Hatarack prophecy or like 2088 01:54:41,520 --> 01:54:45,320 the mission area Productiva, the Azora High Prophecy has been 2089 01:54:45,320 --> 01:54:48,920 implanted in its variations across the world artificially to 2090 01:54:48,920 --> 01:54:50,640 prep for the white Walkers attacking? 2091 01:54:50,720 --> 01:54:53,080 Well, there is that thing in in House of the Dragon which 2092 01:54:53,080 --> 01:54:56,800 apparently George Martin suggested about how Aegon the 2093 01:54:56,800 --> 01:55:00,520 Conqueror may have had a vision and conquered Westeros in order 2094 01:55:00,520 --> 01:55:03,440 to protect Westeros from the White Walkers and avert the 2095 01:55:03,440 --> 01:55:06,880 apocalypse. And there's the implication that 2096 01:55:06,880 --> 01:55:11,200 you know, Viserys believed in that prophecy and and passed 2097 01:55:11,200 --> 01:55:15,000 that prophecy down and you know, Blood Ravens manipulations. 2098 01:55:15,000 --> 01:55:18,280 And I I I think there certainly is evidence in the books that 2099 01:55:18,480 --> 01:55:22,880 the Targaryens were consciously preparing for the White Walkers 2100 01:55:22,880 --> 01:55:25,480 to appear. And and what is a prophecy if 2101 01:55:25,480 --> 01:55:27,680 not a warning? You know what is a prophecy? 2102 01:55:27,680 --> 01:55:30,800 If not someone from the past saying, hey, this is going to be 2103 01:55:30,800 --> 01:55:32,280 a problem, you should prepare for it. 2104 01:55:32,400 --> 01:55:35,200 Certainly a big theory around Quaith as well, whether she's 2105 01:55:35,200 --> 01:55:37,600 part of some manipulation and manipulation doesn't have to 2106 01:55:37,600 --> 01:55:41,240 mean negative like they're they have some goal of profit or 2107 01:55:41,240 --> 01:55:43,760 ambition. It can mean we need to 2108 01:55:44,280 --> 01:55:46,760 manipulate this person into saving the world, you know, or 2109 01:55:46,760 --> 01:55:49,160 into putting her on the right path to doing what needs to be 2110 01:55:49,160 --> 01:55:51,480 done. It's not about personal benefit. 2111 01:55:51,480 --> 01:55:54,440 It's about making sure everyone survives or making sure this 2112 01:55:54,440 --> 01:55:57,240 thread is met properly and without any interference, 2113 01:55:57,600 --> 01:55:58,960 though. Yeah, I think there's 2114 01:55:58,960 --> 01:56:01,760 definitely, I mean, it's outright said that you can go 2115 01:56:01,760 --> 01:56:03,440 into someone's dreams with glass candles. 2116 01:56:03,440 --> 01:56:07,760 George already made it possible in his world in at least one 2117 01:56:07,760 --> 01:56:11,760 way. So yeah, dream manipulation or 2118 01:56:11,760 --> 01:56:14,840 implanting A prophecy, which These are different things, but 2119 01:56:14,880 --> 01:56:17,080 you know, they're related. They're there. 2120 01:56:17,080 --> 01:56:18,880 Yeah. The Azorahi Prophecy is super 2121 01:56:18,880 --> 01:56:21,440 old. The Prince that Was Promised 2122 01:56:21,440 --> 01:56:24,600 Prophecy is perhaps a a different variant or just a 2123 01:56:24,600 --> 01:56:25,880 different name for the same thing. 2124 01:56:25,880 --> 01:56:27,880 And that's been around a long time and it's come up in 2125 01:56:27,880 --> 01:56:30,520 multiple places. You got characters talking about 2126 01:56:30,520 --> 01:56:32,440 it. In a lot of like Amon talking 2127 01:56:32,440 --> 01:56:34,040 about it. It relates to Rhaegar, it 2128 01:56:34,040 --> 01:56:36,760 relates to Bloodraven. Yeah, it just, we're just not 2129 01:56:36,760 --> 01:56:38,800 there yet with all all of the reveals. 2130 01:56:39,080 --> 01:56:42,200 But it feels like it's going to involve some of those same 2131 01:56:42,200 --> 01:56:45,080 mechanisms of manipulating the truth. 2132 01:56:45,440 --> 01:56:48,560 But maybe for good reasons and or just reading what's coming, 2133 01:56:48,560 --> 01:56:50,520 you know, the prophet. It could be more straightforward 2134 01:56:50,520 --> 01:56:52,440 than we think in some ways. It's just the way George is kind 2135 01:56:52,760 --> 01:56:55,520 of revealing it more slowly. But either way you have this 2136 01:56:55,520 --> 01:56:56,640 parallel. It works either way. 2137 01:56:56,680 --> 01:56:59,520 Yeah, it's interesting that in both June and A Song of Ice and 2138 01:56:59,520 --> 01:57:03,840 Fire, like prophecies are not things that just exist naturally 2139 01:57:03,840 --> 01:57:07,920 and automatically and immutably, and they just are what they are 2140 01:57:07,920 --> 01:57:11,640 and they just are the truth. Prophecies in A Song of Ice and 2141 01:57:11,640 --> 01:57:15,520 Fire are made by people who have motivations. 2142 01:57:16,040 --> 01:57:18,240 And you know, we see how Melisandre interprets and 2143 01:57:18,240 --> 01:57:21,560 misinterprets her prophecies based on her own biases. 2144 01:57:21,920 --> 01:57:24,720 And we see how like visions and dreams are not not just 2145 01:57:24,920 --> 01:57:27,480 something that happened naturally but can be planted, as 2146 01:57:27,480 --> 01:57:31,320 you say, like Quaithe with glass candles enters Daenerys mind and 2147 01:57:31,320 --> 01:57:34,280 gives her certain messages for her own reasons. 2148 01:57:34,280 --> 01:57:38,200 And Bloodraven enters the minds of certain characters like JoJo 2149 01:57:38,200 --> 01:57:40,320 and Bran in order to manipulate them. 2150 01:57:40,320 --> 01:57:44,200 And so, so prophecies are not just this inherent magical thing 2151 01:57:44,200 --> 01:57:48,240 that they are just another form of power and of manipulation. 2152 01:57:48,280 --> 01:57:52,280 So I so I don't think A Song of Ice and Fire goes as far as 2153 01:57:52,280 --> 01:57:54,560 Frank Herbert did with the mission area protect Eva, 2154 01:57:54,840 --> 01:57:58,640 wherein entire like religions are created artificially over 2155 01:57:58,640 --> 01:58:00,920 thousands of years deliberately by the Beany Jesuit. 2156 01:58:01,040 --> 01:58:03,880 But it's not unreasonable to speculate because yeah, it is 2157 01:58:03,960 --> 01:58:06,840 suspicious that all over the world of Ice and Fire there are 2158 01:58:06,840 --> 01:58:10,760 all these suspiciously similar prophecies about the Prince that 2159 01:58:10,760 --> 01:58:14,800 was promised in Azorahai and Hakun the hero and the last 2160 01:58:14,800 --> 01:58:16,840 hero. And and you know, you have to 2161 01:58:16,840 --> 01:58:19,360 wonder. Are these like natural memories 2162 01:58:19,360 --> 01:58:23,160 of the past or are they planted myths and planted messages with 2163 01:58:23,160 --> 01:58:26,080 the purpose of telling people how to defeat the White Walkers 2164 01:58:26,080 --> 01:58:28,680 when they come again, how to create light Bringer, how to 2165 01:58:28,680 --> 01:58:31,080 sacrifice? And isn't this a how to use, how 2166 01:58:31,080 --> 01:58:33,640 to create dragon steel? Or you know, whatever the secret 2167 01:58:33,640 --> 01:58:36,040 is? One we haven't even mentioned 2168 01:58:36,040 --> 01:58:37,240 yet. We mentioned how Danny will 2169 01:58:37,240 --> 01:58:43,040 bring Unsullied and Dathraki. She's also going to bring lore 2170 01:58:43,040 --> 01:58:45,840 worshippers. We've been told that she's 2171 01:58:46,280 --> 01:58:50,760 savior of mankind. Narrow, the High priest of Red 2172 01:58:50,760 --> 01:58:55,320 Temple and Volantis, The largest one is openly preaching that. 2173 01:58:55,320 --> 01:58:59,560 When we see Tyrion and Jorah pass by, that's a big part of 2174 01:58:59,560 --> 01:59:02,080 the religious aspect that we haven't really seen fully play 2175 01:59:02,080 --> 01:59:03,640 out yet. Where we're seeing the we are 2176 01:59:03,640 --> 01:59:05,720 seeing the seven and the the High Sparrow. 2177 01:59:05,720 --> 01:59:08,120 And that stuff just gets started in the books and we we maybe 2178 01:59:08,120 --> 01:59:10,520 have some idea where that's going to go based on the show. 2179 01:59:10,680 --> 01:59:13,240 But the show didn't bring in these hordes of relorists. 2180 01:59:13,440 --> 01:59:15,800 They just had one. They just had Melisandre and 2181 01:59:16,000 --> 01:59:17,320 your Thoris was there too, I guess. 2182 01:59:17,320 --> 01:59:19,960 But he wasn't really a zealot. So that's going to be I think 2183 01:59:19,960 --> 01:59:22,000 that's something that goes under the radar because it wasn't in 2184 01:59:22,000 --> 01:59:24,080 the show. But I think we're going to see 2185 01:59:24,720 --> 01:59:27,280 that is something else Daenerys is going to bring which will 2186 01:59:27,280 --> 01:59:30,240 also which will help perhaps defeat the others but also 2187 01:59:30,240 --> 01:59:32,320 perhaps create some conflict out like what are they going to do 2188 01:59:32,320 --> 01:59:36,760 with all these like zealous fire worshippers in a realm of seven 2189 01:59:36,760 --> 01:59:39,080 worshippers. And that's similar to some 2190 01:59:39,080 --> 01:59:42,080 things that happened in Dune with belief and and the the 2191 01:59:42,160 --> 01:59:47,800 people getting a little too into Paul and who he is and and that 2192 01:59:47,800 --> 01:59:50,200 message going too far and and things that you were alluding to 2193 01:59:50,200 --> 01:59:52,680 earlier. Let's not forget fan favorite 2194 01:59:52,680 --> 01:59:56,240 character Kinvara, who had such a huge impact on the story. 2195 01:59:57,360 --> 02:00:00,800 Yeah, Daenerys is suddenly playing with fire, very, very 2196 02:00:00,800 --> 02:00:05,640 literally with the Riloric priests and and Volantis and all 2197 02:00:05,640 --> 02:00:06,960 of that. And again, I think that's 2198 02:00:06,960 --> 02:00:10,080 similar to like the religious fervor of the Fremen behind 2199 02:00:10,080 --> 02:00:12,720 Paul. We see religion as a as a 2200 02:00:12,720 --> 02:00:16,960 dangerous, powerful force that can get stuff done, but it also 2201 02:00:16,960 --> 02:00:20,040 is hard to control and fire burns. 2202 02:00:20,720 --> 02:00:24,880 Thanks for the Super chat from chug who says that Jon Snow will 2203 02:00:24,880 --> 02:00:27,640 be God Emperor of Westeros. Thank you, Lucifer. 2204 02:00:27,640 --> 02:00:30,760 Hey. Lucifer Morganster, who says 2205 02:00:30,760 --> 02:00:33,640 thank you, big fan, Thank you Nazar. 2206 02:00:33,760 --> 02:00:37,480 Who says something weird about George Martin? 2207 02:00:37,960 --> 02:00:41,760 Thank you Sean, who says thanks alt. 2208 02:00:41,760 --> 02:00:44,600 You got me into reading June. I'm on to heretics now, and 2209 02:00:44,600 --> 02:00:47,240 they've easily been the best books I've ever read. 2210 02:00:47,640 --> 02:00:49,360 What's your favorite movie? Wow. 2211 02:00:49,760 --> 02:00:52,840 Yeah, well, heretics is is fun. A lot of people don't like 2212 02:00:52,840 --> 02:00:55,640 heretics in Chapter House as much as the earlier books, but I 2213 02:00:55,640 --> 02:00:58,800 think they've all got a lot of fun, unique stuff going on. 2214 02:00:59,080 --> 02:01:02,560 What is my favorite movie? Oh my God, Aziz, can you go 2215 02:01:02,560 --> 02:01:04,240 first? I need to think what my favorite 2216 02:01:04,240 --> 02:01:07,320 movie is. I'm gonna take an easy way out 2217 02:01:07,320 --> 02:01:10,120 and just say the one I've seen the most, which is Monty Python 2218 02:01:10,120 --> 02:01:12,960 and the Meaning of Life. Fantastic choice. 2219 02:01:13,120 --> 02:01:16,200 An absurd amount of times when I was younger, I had it like, you 2220 02:01:16,200 --> 02:01:19,200 know, when I I I'm old enough to have had AVCR and only a few 2221 02:01:19,200 --> 02:01:20,760 tapes, and that was one of the few I had. 2222 02:01:20,760 --> 02:01:24,800 So I would play my online computer role-playing games 2223 02:01:24,800 --> 02:01:26,360 while just putting that movie on repeat. 2224 02:01:26,360 --> 02:01:28,880 So I'll go with that, yeah. Fantastic. 2225 02:01:29,600 --> 02:01:33,200 I I've got to say, I've seen the Blues Brothers a lot of times. 2226 02:01:33,640 --> 02:01:35,680 Oh, good one. That's a good film. 2227 02:01:35,880 --> 02:01:38,120 I also really like The Royal Tenenbaums. 2228 02:01:38,560 --> 02:01:41,840 I think I have a very basic movie taste, like I'm a real 2229 02:01:41,840 --> 02:01:43,440 basic bitch when it comes to movies. 2230 02:01:43,440 --> 02:01:45,320 So I'm a fan of Wes Anderson for sure. 2231 02:01:46,280 --> 02:01:49,120 I can't believe you, said The Royal Tenenbaums 'cause that is 2232 02:01:49,120 --> 02:01:51,520 the first movie Ashea and I watched together. 2233 02:01:51,800 --> 02:01:53,320 Oh. Really fantastic. 2234 02:01:53,320 --> 02:01:54,920 Yep. Yeah. 2235 02:01:55,200 --> 02:01:59,520 Oh, I love that film. Thanks for the Super chat from 2236 02:01:59,520 --> 02:02:03,120 Jordan who says Dune character alignment chart. 2237 02:02:03,840 --> 02:02:08,040 Yeah, I I saw that that notorious Rapscalli and Alt 2238 02:02:08,040 --> 02:02:12,440 Swift X did some character alignment streams with Glidis, 2239 02:02:12,720 --> 02:02:18,680 ranking characters on how how chaotic or orderly or and and 2240 02:02:18,680 --> 02:02:21,320 good and evil they are. The the Dungeons and Dragons 2241 02:02:21,400 --> 02:02:24,240 alignment system, which is fun. It it would be interesting to do 2242 02:02:24,240 --> 02:02:28,120 that with Dune characters because Dune characters morality 2243 02:02:28,120 --> 02:02:31,800 is so fraught and complicated. It would be very. 2244 02:02:32,160 --> 02:02:34,120 Hard to. To rank them, wouldn't it? 2245 02:02:35,120 --> 02:02:37,360 Yes, Yeah. How? 2246 02:02:37,360 --> 02:02:40,120 I don't, Jeez, what would Paul even be? 2247 02:02:40,120 --> 02:02:41,600 What would at least rank him? Is he? 2248 02:02:42,280 --> 02:02:45,440 Yeah, Paul exist through neutral Paul. 2249 02:02:45,440 --> 02:02:49,200 Exists on every point on the morality spectrum 2250 02:02:49,200 --> 02:02:50,720 simultaneously. He is. 2251 02:02:52,280 --> 02:02:54,920 And don't even get us started on like God Emperor later the 2252 02:02:54,920 --> 02:03:00,520 second My goodness, 'cause he, like he like, enforces order for 2253 02:03:00,520 --> 02:03:03,960 the sake of chaos and evil for the sake of good. 2254 02:03:05,160 --> 02:03:09,640 Thanks for the Super chat from Film Comics explained who says 2255 02:03:10,080 --> 02:03:13,640 the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality 2256 02:03:13,720 --> 02:03:16,840 to experience, which is one of the great Dune quotes. 2257 02:03:17,320 --> 02:03:19,920 And he says thanks for providing the best detailed analysis on 2258 02:03:19,920 --> 02:03:22,240 YouTube for both Dune and Game of Thrones that has helped us 2259 02:03:22,240 --> 02:03:24,880 all understand our experiences with our favorite IP. 2260 02:03:24,960 --> 02:03:27,120 Cheers, Niat, thank you so much Niat. 2261 02:03:27,280 --> 02:03:30,400 And check out Niat's channel Film Comics Explained. 2262 02:03:30,440 --> 02:03:32,960 Thank you Moss, who says thank you for helping me stay 2263 02:03:32,960 --> 02:03:35,360 connected to my friend who passed away last year. 2264 02:03:35,480 --> 02:03:37,560 He loved your videos. Keep up the great work. 2265 02:03:38,200 --> 02:03:40,840 Thank you Moss. Sorry to hear about your friend, 2266 02:03:40,880 --> 02:03:43,440 and thank you for the Super chat from Nuisance who says I think 2267 02:03:43,440 --> 02:03:46,720 there's parallels between Melisandre and Jessica as pseudo 2268 02:03:46,720 --> 02:03:48,760 prophets who are in on the facade. 2269 02:03:49,240 --> 02:03:52,440 I like the position facilitating A fervent movement that puts 2270 02:03:52,440 --> 02:03:55,960 them in resulting isolation. Yeah. 2271 02:03:55,960 --> 02:03:57,040 What do you think of that as Ace? 2272 02:03:58,040 --> 02:04:00,480 That's pretty clever. Yeah, 'cause Melisandre 2273 02:04:00,480 --> 02:04:03,800 obviously knows she's making some things up and she's using, 2274 02:04:03,800 --> 02:04:07,440 you know, changing some details to push things in a direction 2275 02:04:07,440 --> 02:04:12,200 that she thinks is correct. And yeah and Jessica also is we 2276 02:04:12,200 --> 02:04:16,120 see her get in trouble with the Benedjeserate because she does 2277 02:04:16,120 --> 02:04:19,200 some things her own way and is already kind of a a bit of a 2278 02:04:19,200 --> 02:04:22,000 rogue. Alessandra's like connection to 2279 02:04:22,000 --> 02:04:26,000 the Red Temple and like whose center doesn't seem clear, which 2280 02:04:26,000 --> 02:04:28,800 kind of leads us to believe, and I think reasonably so, that 2281 02:04:29,080 --> 02:04:32,040 she's also a bit of a rogue and doing some things outside of 2282 02:04:32,800 --> 02:04:40,160 what the higher ups or hierarchy the the people that have wield 2283 02:04:40,160 --> 02:04:42,440 power within the the Red Temple would would have done it. 2284 02:04:42,440 --> 02:04:44,520 So yeah, that's a really good catch. 2285 02:04:44,520 --> 02:04:47,400 I like that. Yeah, I think there's a suspect, 2286 02:04:47,400 --> 02:04:50,840 Martin, where where George did allegedly confirm that like, 2287 02:04:50,840 --> 02:04:54,640 yeah, Melisandre is she, she went to Stannis and Dragonstone 2288 02:04:54,640 --> 02:04:58,440 on her own accord and she's not operating under the orders of a 2289 02:04:58,440 --> 02:05:02,400 Red Temple. She she's sort of a renegade red 2290 02:05:02,400 --> 02:05:05,280 priest, which is really similar to how Jessica is like a 2291 02:05:05,280 --> 02:05:08,720 renegade Ben, a Jesuit who is deviating from from their plan. 2292 02:05:08,720 --> 02:05:12,120 And yeah, like in that scene with Mapes where Jessica sort of 2293 02:05:12,120 --> 02:05:16,440 lies and manipulates to fit the prophecy of the Listen Al Gaib 2294 02:05:16,440 --> 02:05:18,320 with Mapes. That is really similar to a lot 2295 02:05:18,320 --> 02:05:20,840 of what Melisandre does. When we see Melisandre, 2296 02:05:21,160 --> 02:05:25,400 Melisandre describes towers by the sea crumbling under a great 2297 02:05:25,400 --> 02:05:27,880 wave or whatever. And Jon Snow is like, oh, is 2298 02:05:27,880 --> 02:05:30,280 that Eastwatch? And Melisandre is like, Oh yeah, 2299 02:05:30,280 --> 02:05:33,160 that definitely is Eastwatch. But inside her thoughts, we see 2300 02:05:33,160 --> 02:05:35,960 Melisandre going, oh, I have no idea if that's Eastwatch. 2301 02:05:35,960 --> 02:05:37,320 I don't think that actually was Eastwatch. 2302 02:05:37,360 --> 02:05:38,560 But yeah, John seems to think so. 2303 02:05:38,560 --> 02:05:41,400 So I'll go with it. So And that's really similar to 2304 02:05:41,400 --> 02:05:43,920 when, when Jessica is like, oh, the maker. 2305 02:05:43,920 --> 02:05:46,800 Yeah, I totally knew that The maker is a sand worm. 2306 02:05:46,800 --> 02:05:48,280 Yeah, I know what a Chris knife is. 2307 02:05:48,680 --> 02:05:51,600 So so so both Melisandre and Jessica totally bluff in a 2308 02:05:51,600 --> 02:05:54,960 hilarious way. They they, they cold Reed almost 2309 02:05:54,960 --> 02:05:57,920 Mapes and Jon respectively. So yeah I think I think that's a 2310 02:05:58,400 --> 02:06:00,960 fantastic point nuisance. Thanks for the Super chat from 2311 02:06:00,960 --> 02:06:04,040 Isaac who says rewatched your hooded man video recently. 2312 02:06:04,160 --> 02:06:07,440 Who's your favorite character in the north at the end of dance? 2313 02:06:07,880 --> 02:06:11,080 I think that I think that Wyman Mandely is enormously fun 2314 02:06:11,080 --> 02:06:17,760 because Wyman is funny and evil AT and sort of heroic all at the 2315 02:06:17,760 --> 02:06:20,520 same time. Like Wyman has the speech about 2316 02:06:20,520 --> 02:06:23,360 the North remembers and how he wants to avenge his son who was 2317 02:06:23,360 --> 02:06:25,520 killed at the Red Wedding. And he gets revenge on the 2318 02:06:25,520 --> 02:06:29,280 phrase by cooking phrase into pie and feeding them to their 2319 02:06:29,280 --> 02:06:32,800 family. And he sort of wants to help 2320 02:06:32,800 --> 02:06:35,080 restore the Starks and he wants to save Rickon. 2321 02:06:35,080 --> 02:06:38,800 But really he's doing it for his own political empowerment and he 2322 02:06:38,800 --> 02:06:41,960 wants to make, he wants to take over the Hornwood lands. 2323 02:06:41,960 --> 02:06:46,000 And like Wyman has so many layers and motivations and it's 2324 02:06:46,000 --> 02:06:48,960 so much fun and it's so witty and and fun to read. 2325 02:06:48,960 --> 02:06:50,920 And so, yeah, he's one of my faves. 2326 02:06:50,920 --> 02:06:53,520 Thanks for the Super chat from Glidis who says, can you make a 2327 02:06:53,520 --> 02:06:57,520 video about how Curious George is different in the books versus 2328 02:06:57,520 --> 02:06:59,720 the TV show? Yeah, look, I mean, it's hard 2329 02:06:59,720 --> 02:07:00,040 to. Adapt. 2330 02:07:00,040 --> 02:07:04,320 I thought you did that already. I I have been thinking of of an 2331 02:07:04,320 --> 02:07:07,320 April Fool's joke explaining Bionicle's Law. 2332 02:07:08,080 --> 02:07:13,240 I I think it would be really funny to go real deep into all 2333 02:07:13,240 --> 02:07:15,680 of that if anyone remembers what Bionicles are. 2334 02:07:16,240 --> 02:07:21,560 But yeah, there's no limit to the ridiculous topics we can 2335 02:07:21,560 --> 02:07:24,120 cover on an April Fool's. Video. 2336 02:07:24,680 --> 02:07:27,840 Have you done any like straight up joke videos on history of 2337 02:07:27,840 --> 02:07:28,360 Westeros? He. 2338 02:07:28,400 --> 02:07:30,480 Did once. We did the wit and wisdom of 2339 02:07:30,480 --> 02:07:34,560 Stannis Baratheon a long time ago and it was just like reading 2340 02:07:34,560 --> 02:07:37,120 his quotes and and just like setting up some of the funny 2341 02:07:37,120 --> 02:07:38,880 things he said and just showing how funny he is. 2342 02:07:39,480 --> 02:07:43,040 He's we we cited him as I think the third funniest character in 2343 02:07:43,040 --> 02:07:45,000 a song of my story. There's Tyrion and dolorous Ed, 2344 02:07:45,000 --> 02:07:48,200 I think are probably ahead of him, but Dennis is makes a 2345 02:07:48,200 --> 02:07:52,960 strong case he's he's damn funny with all his sarcasm and jokes 2346 02:07:52,960 --> 02:07:58,480 about Robert and all that, yeah. Yeah, Stannis was robbed by the 2347 02:07:58,480 --> 02:07:59,760 Game of Thrones TV show. They. 2348 02:08:00,440 --> 02:08:03,800 He has so many funny lines in the books that were just not 2349 02:08:03,800 --> 02:08:06,880 included in the show, which is tragic. 2350 02:08:07,040 --> 02:08:10,560 Yes, a real a real tragedy. Thanks for the Super chat from 2351 02:08:10,560 --> 02:08:13,920 Dylan who says do the Bionicle video on Ironically. 2352 02:08:14,000 --> 02:08:15,760 Yeah. Well, look, I guess, I guess we 2353 02:08:15,760 --> 02:08:18,400 have to do it now. And that's all for this episode. 2354 02:08:18,400 --> 02:08:22,000 But we do have more. There is a spoilery portion of 2355 02:08:22,000 --> 02:08:25,160 this discussion that we also recorded in the episode, but we 2356 02:08:25,160 --> 02:08:29,120 cut it in half so that y'all who don't want to be spoiled can not 2357 02:08:29,200 --> 02:08:31,080 get spoiled. So that episode will be released 2358 02:08:31,080 --> 02:08:33,640 separately. Look out for it on your feed in 2359 02:08:33,640 --> 02:08:34,720 a week or two. That's it. 2360 02:08:34,800 --> 02:08:53,080 And Valar reread. The. 2361 02:09:25,560 --> 02:09:25,640 The.