The Dance of the Dragons is mentioned in A Song of Ice and
Fire. No, not with a lot of detail.
There's some it's fun, but it's kind of scattered.
That changed in 2013 when George published The Princess and the
Queen, a novella in a collection called Dangerous Women.
It's quite good, actually. All the stories in that
collection are very entertaining.
I highly recommend it. But this was expanded on the
following year in the World of Ice and Fire, and then four
years more after that in Fire and Blood.
But it goes to show that Rainier and Allison have been at the
heart of the dance ever since George first fleshed it out.
They were the first framing device he chose.
The TV show made changes to them and their ages and various other
details, but it kept their relationship very much central
to the show, with Olivia Cook and Emma Darcy as features among
an ensemble cast. And we're going to discuss that
journey today. Their characters as they
intersect with one another, parallels, hidden stuff, stuff
you've noticed but needs more explanation or just a good fun
thing to talk about. And we've got a special guest to
help us through this effort today.
So we've got all that and more on this episode of History of
Westeros Podcast. Hello and welcome back
everybody. It's another Wednesday deep
dive. We do these most Wednesdays
during the season at 7 Eastern, talking about a specific topic
that we choose that we feel like deserves a lot more attention or
getting in a little deeper with it.
On Mondays we do our spoiler free live streams with Sean and
go over every episode as it just happened.
And on Saturdays we do our spoiler filled episodes where we
talk about what's coming. And of course we have game
streams at 6:00 on Fridays over at twitch.tv/history of
Westeros. Welcome back to the show Kim
Renfro of A Cast of Kings. And you are, you've been in this
game for quite a while and we love having you on to talk.
So it's great having you here. Thanks so much for having me
back. You're welcome, and you have had
a a big life event recently too, haven't you?
I did. I had a baby.
Yeah, baby. Yes.
You hear tiny cries in the background.
That is my two-month old son. It was not named Agon.
He's named Amond right now. That's right.
Well, congratulations. That's great.
We're very happy for you. So we're going to do this
episode is mostly non spoilery. We've got so much to cover just
going through the lives of Rainier and Allison.
But we are going to have some spoilers at the end that we'll
talk about with Kim. Sean will jump off because he
remains unsullied. So we'll we'll warn you when
that's coming in case you are as well unsullied or don't want to
hear the spoilery stuff. But we do have a a section set
aside for that at the end. Also, if you have questions, go
ahead and send them to us at westeroshistory@gmail.com if
you're catching a show later. But if you're live with us now,
why not send us your questions right here during the stream?
Tracy McMillan sends a super chat, says midnight.
So can't watch live. Sending love.
Well, thanks, Tracy, I know you're over there in in
Scotland. So yeah, it is a bit late over
there. So Rainier and Allison begin the
show as best friends. They're two of the four main
characters in season one and well, the saris isn't around in
season 2. So it's kind of like there's
three main characters with arguably a lot more.
It's not important to just decide who's a main character
and who isn't. Like the tears, it's not super
important. But clearly Allison, Rainiera
and as well Damon are top 3IN screen time.
And of course Damon has a lot to do with these two characters.
He'll come up, but we're obviously going to focus on
Allison Rainier. It's the Allison and Rainier
show. I like to say central character
sometimes that's OK. It doesn't eliminate some people
from being Maine, but I do think that Allison Rainiera and Damon
or the central characters. I like that as soon as you put
on that Allison shirt, you renamed this to the Allison and
Rainiera show, but you gave me the title as Rainiera and
Allison. You see how these things take
over, You put these folks together and one will just try
to usurp the other, like so if you're looking for this episode
later, it might be Allison and Rainier, It might be Rainier and
Allison. Maybe it's just one.
It's just the Rainier show or just the.
Allison Show. That's right, rain ascent of all
charges. Things move quickly in season
one because so many years are covered and we find ourselves
from episode to episode with with large things happening in
between, like one of them becoming pregnant or pregnant
again or they the actors change things like that.
From from the start, we see that Allison is more dutiful and that
kind of continues all the way through to where we are now in a
lot of ways. Certainly certain aspects of
their personality have have been held on.
Rainier is freer. Arguably she changed more over
the years and this is in part because of her upbringing.
But overall, they're really close from the beginning.
And you know, the one of the first times we see them, Rainier
has her head in Allison's lap. At their age, they don't
understand all their own feelings.
You know, they're they're teenagers.
They like each other for a variety of reasons.
And one of the things they bond over, or at least comes up big
is this 10,000 ships book. And this is something that pops
up a few times throughout the story.
And who knows, maybe it will again.
What what was your first instinct or analysis or take on
Allison Rainier's relationship? And do you think maybe looking
back on it, it it's a what's happened since has maybe change
some of what you initially thought, Kim?
Bisexual, Reneira confirmed. Yeah.
We didn't know for sure that even though she gave Allison to
look or two, that was like totally, but it wasn't 100%
confirmed. Yeah, I mean, that was the the
romantic undertones to their friendship were something that I
picked up on early, like early when I first.
I don't I think that HBO might have given us like 4 episodes at
a time ahead of the premiere. And then I was lucky enough at
the time to to be invited to like a junket where I spoke with
Emily Carey and Millie Alcock. And I asked them about that
because I was like, am I, am I, am I reading into this too much
like what's going on? And they both seemed pretty
confident that like, yes, like that was like part of like the
intentionality behind their performance was that there were
there were overlaps of like the the intimacy being both like the
way that we see a lot of just teenage, like you said, like
teenagers kind of not knowing their feelings, having that
intimacy with one another. It's not always necessarily
romantic or not or like a sign of someone's sexuality or not.
But they were like, yeah, the the vibes, the vibes were there.
And I was like, OK, cool. But then right until, like, this
season, we didn't have a lot of confirmation that that would be
like an explicit part of the Canon for their characters.
But I really loved seeing that dynamic between them.
I thought it added so much more depth to the way that, like,
these two young women were both, like, raised very differently.
But clearly, we're kind of each other's port in the storms at
that tumultuous point of their adolescence.
And it just made it all the more sad that they broke apart in the
way that they did, mostly because of the interference of
older men who should have known better than to treat their young
women in their lives like that. And to kind of like the way that
they were each sort of manipulated into different
roles. And the way that that just
separated them from one another in ways that we're, we're still
seeing the fallout, I think of the of the fact that they were
no longer able to actually like be supportive figures in one
other's lives beyond their teenage years for sure.
It's really hard to keep friends with someone that you friended
at that age in general, let alone what we were, Royals.
Or. Whatever and like all these
civil civil war things like that.
It's pretty hard to they had they had more obstacles to
maintaining their friendship than most teenage girls do.
Sean, what about this book 10,000 ships?
This was pretty important. It kind of framed a lot of their
relationship in a way like it's like a Mac Guffin that they can
come back to and refer to. But also they they looked at
they it's, it's an important story that is well known in the
setting. But they kind of, I guess you
could say they kind of bonded with it in different ways or
different aspects of the story that they like more.
Like, Nymeria appeals to them for different reasons, you know.
You know, it's so important. In fact, I went and checked on
something just before we started this episode 'cause you remember
there's a scene early on where she tears the page out of the
book. And it's one.
Is it kind of like a indication of the difference in her
characters? Like Allison's aghast at this,
but Reneira's the rebel, you know what I mean?
And that's kind of like they're, they're characters mostly
through their youth anyway, maybe a little bit different
now. But then when Otto comes with
terms right after the Greens have seized the throne and you
know, game is not having at all, Reneira seems open and he pulls
that he he brings the Maester Orwell forward with this paper,
unfolds it and you know, it, it, it gets Renera clearly.
She I, I feel like she's keeping in check how much she wants to
make a deal with Otto because she just can't do it in front of
Damon's, you know, a loudmouth. But if you remember a couple
episodes ago, she decides to get that to read that letter.
At one point we we hear Allison has sent her a letter and then
she tells Renee, tells Rainey's that she got this letter but she
hasn't even bothered to read it. But then she does.
She opens up that. Scroll.
Treasure box and then scroll is in there along with a couple
other. Treasures.
Including, yes, heartfelt treasures.
A folded up piece of parchment is underneath there, which I
guarantee is that same piece of paper from that book.
Where? She kept her children's, a
children's toy in there. Things that have great meaning
to her, absolutely. That's a good catch.
I didn't notice the letter, the page in there that's.
Really good. I went back to double check I
and it, you know, again, I'm kind of assuming, but what the
heck else? Was that's a good assumption.
In there, you know? Yeah.
I'll take that as head cannon for sure.
Yeah. And I and it also leaves it open
for it to get pulled back out at some point.
You know, it, it seems like they're past the point of
reconciliation. I want to, I want to say that I
think there was another moment, not take away from all the other
facts going on, including the manipulation of older men in
their lives and then the war breaking out and all this other
stuff. But I do think there was a key
moment when the relationship was damaged, was severely damaged,
was when Raniera lied to Allison, when Allison heard this
rumor, you know, when the spy told Otto and the spy was a
little off, right? Like Damon Raniera made out in
public, they didn't quite have sex, but she did have sex with
Kristen. And Allison goes to confront
Raniera about it and she vehemently denies it.
And Allison believes her and goes to confront her dad over
this even then finds out for Kristen that they didn't have
sex. I think that betrayal to Allison
is what I want to say ended their friendship.
But I still think in that moment that was emotionally charged.
It might have ended it. But as time passed, it's, as you
can see, I think they still have a bond.
They still have. Yeah.
They. They.
Made-up after that. Yeah, I, I have, I have a few
friends in my life that I've had for over 20 years and I've had
some pretty bad fights with them 17 years ago and now we're still
friends Despite that bad fight. Now we're not involved in wars
and. We're not.
It's not as heavy, but, but I do think that that moment, I think
it's fair to put a little bit of blame on Rainier specifically
for both her indiscretion and her dishonesty about Allison's.
I agree. I agree.
Another thing that speaks to their continued connection is
the fact that Rainier has shared a truth with Allison that is
really supposed to only be shared between like, the monarch
and their heir, right it, but she chose to like, talk to
Allison about that, which speaks to the fact that she still
trusts her, cares about her, wants to, wants to confide in
her. And at this point in their
lives, maybe even relates more so than ever before, like it's
probably some of the rebellious fire of her youth has gone kind
of natural. But also they're both living
this live of trying to be leaders in a man's world, right?
I think that they can relate to that.
And I think that's what that whole scene.
I'm sure we'll talk about it more.
We're getting ahead of ourselves here.
Yeah, we're going. We're going chronologically.
Let's not jump too far ahead. Let's back that up a little bit.
That's a great point from Sean about like the that moment where
Rainier fails to like truly confide in Allison about what
happened, I think is absolutely like probably one of the bigger
regrets maybe of Rainier's adolescence or like certainly
from like what we've been shown in the series.
And yet I'm also I was also like watching that was like painful
of like, oh, like, just like just tell it.
Like I'm sure Allison would like not necessarily judge Rainiera
wholly. Like I feel like if Rainier had
told her the whole truth of like how that how everything with
Damon had gone down that night, things might have gone
differently. But I also understood in that
moment, like Rainiera acting out of like shame and being like, I,
I don't, I don't want to talk about what just happened between
me and Damon because like, like specifically the way she says
like Damon never touched me. Like I feel like she's trying to
convince herself. Like that was so like weird and
embarrassing and left me feeling so strange.
And I certainly can't tell her about the Kristen situation.
That's like a secret. And like, I know that that was
like really, really bad. But like, specifically the Damon
thing, I just feel like I understood that Rainier was like
feeling a lot of shame in that moment and just could not bring
herself to to really confide in Allison in that moment.
Because at that point their relationship was already weirdly
strained. Because now Allison is her queen
and like she sometimes has to like behave in different courtly
ways around her. And it's like, OK, am I talking
to my bestie here? Or am I talking to my queen and
also the wife of my father, who like definitely from my nearest
point of view, like couldn't know about what had just
happened. So like, I think that the show
has done a really good job of adding so many like
understandable and like sympathetic reasons for the
various chips in their relationship and like their
dynamic over the. Yeah, most of what happens to
them is, is not their own making of their own doing.
Like you said, there's these adults around them that are
forcing them into marriages, giving, making them air or not
making them air. They're expecting to get married
'cause that's how women of their culture are happen noble women
of their culture, etcetera. So and then things don't quite
go as according to a lot of those expectations, which is
interesting. Now the the concept of secrets,
I think is super interesting Between these two, there's two
things I want to focus on with this.
One is just their general upbringing and the other is the
secrets they keep now as as at the beginning, you get the sense
that they would tell each other anything.
You know, they're close, they have their best friends.
It's not very complicated. Their life hasn't gotten hasn't
had all these influences that that make it more difficult that
would encourage them to maybe keep things from each other.
But honestly, the first thing that comes up between them that
isn't that isn't spoken of is that prophecy, because that
happens in episode one and that becomes the thing.
Like we say, the IT it does come up later.
They do talk about it, and it's one of the few times that
Rainier confides in anyone regarding it, partly because
it's related to circumstances like Allison brings it up first.
Yeah, I would. I would say I misspoke.
She doesn't truly confide all the way.
She kind of refers to it, but she doesn't really say.
Here, let me lay it out for you. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
But it still comes up. But that's so interesting.
Is this maybe the first secret she got in her life that she
couldn't share with Allison now? She couldn't share with anyone,
really, but she But Allison is the one she would have shared it
with if it weren't like this big, great, grand family secret.
And maybe that is the first little trickle of the trust
breaking down because she has a state secret that, yeah, you
understand why she doesn't tell. But it's the first time that
burden's been put on her. And they both lost their mothers
early in life. That's a big factor and a very
relevant point was made recently, in fact, in the last
episode when Gwaine and Allison discussed their childhood.
This was a huge fodder for looking back on these these
earlier scenes and having more comprehensive understanding of
what they're talking about. Gwaine talks about being raised
at Old Town. Allison's like I was raised at
the Red Keep. They both dad liked you best.
But then they talk about how being raised at the Red Keep
isn't good, right? What does he say?
The Red Keep, for all its privileges, may not be the most
salubrious environment for raising children.
Good vocab words happening this season.
All right, he was raised near the Citadel.
Maybe. I'll learn words like that at
the red key. Allison was like.
She didn't understand that word. She just like context.
She's like, that means bad, right?
So, and that's Allison Raniera. These two children, the first
two kids we see being raised at the Red Keep, when we have this,
you know, 16 episodes later, it's like, you know, the Red
Keep's a bad place to raise children.
Now that she's been a child and a mother at the Red Keep, she
really has she has that perspective, but it's not like
she can compare it to anything else unless she's talking to
someone she trusts that has a perspective that's different,
which her brother is exactly that, so.
I love the shot too of Allison walking out to the courtyard on
that scene. Her silhouette looked exactly
like her younger self to me. Like something about like the
like the shape of the dress and like the hair that they had her
and in that. Moment Emily Carey's Allison
would wear a lot. Yeah.
And I was like, oh, they're like, there was just a lot of
echoes of like, oh, we are absolutely supposed to be
recalling exactly the way that her own upbringing has now LED
her to this point in a lot of really tragic ways.
I also think it's really interesting to think about the
difference of even within the Red Keep and even with all the
similarities in their upbringing that they had, the difference
that it seems being a lady versus a Princess bears.
Like, you know, it reminds me a lot of like, you know, being a
first born son versus the second son and like.
Yes, you're both still in like an immense place of privilege
within the Westerosi society, but like, you have different
chips on your shoulders. And I think that that
contributes a little bit to the way that Allison was so much
more of like a rule follower and like very, you know, manners and
customs and all these things are very important in a way that
Rainier, because she was a Princess and because
particularly I think like a Targaryen Princess and being
like, you know, I'm special. We can break the rules
sometimes. Like we can be a little more
brash and, and do whatever we want.
And Allison clearly resents that, resents not feeling like
she had that same path to tread. I'm glad you said that 'cause I
didn't think about that before. Think of how much of A rebel
problem child, if you will, Damon, Whoever can be the second
son. Almost expected to just be a
problem, right? But.
The second daughter better keep herself in line, yeah?
Else she won't have a good man to marry, right?
Yeah. Exactly.
She needs to be marriage marriageable.
Marriageable. Yeah, that's a word, right?
Marable. Yeah.
Now this last topic you brought up also has an interesting
connection to things that were discussed more recently on the
show. For example, we have the let's
talk about the Sept. The Sept, of course, is a very
important location for them, and it relates to the loss of
Allison's mother and which is we later learned as Alery Florent.
Now, Rainier wasn't raised deeply in the Seven.
They're prominent in Old Town and house out here.
That's like the most prominent location for them.
So you say Allison was raised to be a rule follower.
She lived, she was born in the place where the rules emanate
from, like the the heart of those rules.
They're rooted in worship of the Seven.
And that's where the Citadel and the Sept, the Great Sept are.
So. Yeah.
And the high towers are obviously very powerful as well.
Old Town's a huge population center.
But to get back to what y'all were just saying, that's another
early conversation that's had been fleshed out in a very
recent episode. Yeah.
Allison's like, I was kind of jealous of Rainier's ability to
be free. In this last episode, episode,
episode 6, Rainier is complaining to Missouri that
David got to do whatever he wanted.
He was the free one. Right.
So it's like, this is like, well, he she's jealous of her
for being too free, and she's jealous of him for being.
It's like this escalating jealousy thing.
And it does. They do kind of go down that
ladder. It's like, OK, well, one is this
the first born daughter of a very conservative house.
The 2nd is first born daughter of the royal house, which means
she has more privileges and is probably expects to not inherit.
Damon also doesn't inherit, but is a man taught to be more
aggressive and all these other things.
So yeah, it's kind of like a like a level one, level 2, Level
3, you know? Yeah.
And like, how do they each try to get as much power and agency
as possible? Like they each have a very
different approach to how they do that.
And I think Rainera of the three of them, is probably the one
least interested in that. You know, she says early on,
like, I wish I could just be a knight and fly around on my
dragon. And like, she's the one kind of
burdened a little bit more. And I think that that that
contributes, I think, to the way that she, the way that we see
her act now as an adult a lot more.
And her, her, her attempts at adhering to duty while still
being, yeah, like now, resentful of losing that freedom and
losing the ability to truly do whatever she wanted.
I wonder if we could let me get you all's take on this.
This is something I just now kind of realized.
That opening scene where Rainier comes back from Cyrax and
Allison's talking to her and they meet and and Rainier kind
of talks about, well, wouldn't you want to fly?
And she's like, Nah, no thanks. That's a really good statement
on the kind of person they are and how they've been raised.
Like Allison here, you're offered the freedom.
And she's like, no, I don't want it.
Like it isn't just that she's restricted.
It's like she believes she doesn't.
Maybe she really doesn't because it scares the hell out of her.
But I think that's meant to, like, tell us a little something
about she doesn't have. She doesn't feel like it's her
place to explore like that, or to be free like that, Maybe.
And some of it could be fear, too.
It's probably not just. Right, like it's just not her
preference to live A to live a risky life like that.
But there's a difference between like not being risk averse or
like not wanting to be on dragon back and being confined entirely
the way that the way that she is.
So yeah, I love the more that I rewatch those early episodes,
like I really appreciate how much groundwork the writers were
doing in terms of like all these little like show, don't tell
moments of the differences between them and the ways that
they relate to one another that just keep building up on each
other as we get further and further into the story here.
Yeah, totally. And in terms of the Sept being,
you know, one of their places and, and, and Allison lighting
candles right for, for her mother and stuff like that.
I found one of the interviews that Olivia Cook gave a while
back really interesting. Actually, I think it was Sarah
Hess maybe quoting Olivia Cook. But in an interview, they said
that Olivia told Sarah Hess that she believes it's her head
cannon that at some point Allison and Rainier kissed or
made out or had some kind of physical interaction that
Allison's mother found out about and forbade.
And so in in Olivia Cook's head cannon, it's like, oh, I can't
do that. That's not right.
And that's her the background that she orients herself with.
So when you think about this scene of her like this idea of
her in the Sept and she's like atoning for these kind of, you
know, latent homosexual tendencies that she's kind of
trying to stifle. And she's thinking about her
mother telling her this is wrong and all of that.
It's it's so rich. Totally.
I the the way that I think, like their shared grief over losing
their mothers, like again, should have been such a strong,
like should have made their bond even stronger.
And the way that like Otto immediately redirects Allison
towards comforting Viserys as opposed to being there for right
near it in the aftermath of that was again, like so consequential
to what we're now seeing in their adult dynamics.
And that's sort of like, you know, like the generational
trauma cycle, like, you know, could have stopped with the two
of them potentially if they had been able to kind of like stick
together and support one another.
But the fact that, like, Otto was like, Nope, like, you know,
we're not going to go ahead and like, help Rainier through this
awful situation, like focuses on Viserys and, you know,
furthering the cause of House Hightower here and maintaining
the status quo in the realm. You know, I think there's a
decent chance that she did actually come from Rainiera.
They may have still been friends and bonded through that.
We just didn't see it on screen. I'm not sure about this, but I
can see that they continued their relationship similar to
what we knew. Knew already or have been seen.
But then additionally Allison was meeting with the saris all
the time. Let's say I'm right about that.
That might make it worse. When all of a sudden Allison and
Becerra are getting married. That means it information.
Adds to the betrayal. Right.
Adds to the betrayal, right? So.
Yeah, that's another great point is like if if the Song of Ice
and Fire prophecy was sort of the first burden and wait and
like secret that Rainier had to keep from Allison, the fact that
Allison is specifically kind of old by Viserys.
Like you don't talk, you don't tell Raniero about like these
little meetings, right? Like was that was the first
thing put that was the first thing put on Allison of like,
oh, shit. And, and the fact that they're
both coming from Viserys, like Viserys kind of like brought
down these two again as king, not only as like one of their
elders and a father, but like as king, you know, created these
two secrets that then just, you know, build up and up and up
until the the hurt, the hurt comes to the fore.
And and any sort of bonding or support or whatever Allison may
have had Raniera in that time might have been discounted by
what feels like a betrayal from Raniera for her to be hooking up
with her dad. So.
Yeah, right. Like, oh, were you just, were
you trying to get him good with the family?
All goes all along, yeah? Throws everything into question,
which is I think it's it's fascinating at the show, kind of
like, does such a significant time jump right after that
reveal? Like we don't see at like
Allison and Rainier talk about the fact that she's marrying
Viserys. We jump straight from like the
sort of wordless hurt. They're looking at each other
from either side of the small council table again, like loaded
imagery of like them being on opposite sides of this very
significant space that we now see them always having to kind
of Duke it out with men in their various like in their various
castles. But the fact that we, we jump
forward to like, oh, Allison has already had a child and is now
pregnant with another. Like, you know, we, we lost a
couple years there of, of what their types of interactions were
like. And we sort of jumped straight
to them being just very frosty with one another and Rainier
being like, are you commanding me as your queen?
Like, cool, fine. And like.
And you can tell that Allison just like so lonely.
It it is really sad. It's like, I believe that that's
around the same time too, that Damon like, returns to the
castle and Damon and Viserys both like pick on Allison a
little bit for trying to be like the queenly like, oh, OK, let's
show you the tapestries. And they're in the tapestries.
And I was like, sisters, don't bully your teenage pregnant
wife. That's really mean.
Yeah. She was being very polite, Yeah.
Yeah, and like you, that was again like adds to the to to me
to the tragedy of the fact that Rainier then has that that break
of of lying to her and leads to that.
Because you absolutely can sense that there was a window there
where Allison was like desperate for a friend again.
And like Rainier, could have probably slipped back in there
and repaired it. But.
And in that scene, they did kind of have that reparation a bit.
They, you know, Rainier accidentally says, I would hate
to be, you know, pinned down and just having babies living in it.
Oh, my bad. Sorry.
That's what you're doing right now.
Yeah. But it's.
It's so awkward, the position they're in.
Like she just wants to talk to her best friend and say the
things that a best friend would do after being named Air, which
she, you know, Rainier is not sure about this.
Like, am I really going to be the Air if there's a boy born?
And if there's a boy born, it's going to come from her best
friend. Her best friend's child could
usurp her. What a strange position to be
in. And then her father's insisting
that he's not going to do that. But meanwhile, everyone's
pressuring her father to undo that.
So is she really gonna sit there and think, oh, sure, dad, he's
not a pushover, He'll hold on. Like, obviously Viserys is kind
of a pushover. So she has reason to believe
that this won't hold. This scenario won't last.
Yeah, plus, like the jump to like seeing that, OK, she's been
named heir, but she's still serving as just like cup bearer
at the small council meetings. Like she's not really being.
And again, we got some great dialogue from adult Rainier and
the the recent episodes where she's saying like, my dad didn't
actually train me the way that a boy would have been trained in
my place. And it is now to my detriment
that the men around me don't see me as having had the same level
of experience and guidance that Viserys would have given a son,
or should have given a son, because he also didn't give it
to his actual sons either. I was going to say another thing
that might put doubt in her mind about this is she's not really
being prepared for it. Even as the cupbearer, which may
be ostensibly as a sort of preparation, but she gets shut
down. She tries to give some advice
and get shut down. And as much as I want to give
credit to Viserys for being more diplomatic and avoiding war, I
appreciate that. But he just did a terrible job
as a father and I think mostly as a leader.
He, because he even in private Renira tried to bring it up at
dinner, shut down again. I mean she, I don't know what he
was thinking. Like I've said this a million
times, I think he should have been traveling with her on
dragon back to each main castle, reminding everyone this is my
air. These are our Dragons, don't
forget. But instead she was a silent
cupbearer, like she wasn't really prepared and the realm
wasn't prepared for her to take over.
Yeah, that was a total failure on Viserys's part that he
clearly like thinks he did a fine job of like, like the not
to jump too far ahead. But like, you know, when he's
like looking over at the the various children being like,
like, this is how boy, I'm like, what world do you live in, dude?
I'm. Like.
Your children are not friendly with one another and like
they're more fragile than you think it is.
He had a lot of blindness about that.
Yeah. So when when Aegon is 2, this is
a part that maybe some of y'all forgot about.
Allison hears Viserys talk about his dream and other Targaryen
dreamers in front of that giant bonfire while he's drunk and
sad. And perhaps most importantly, he
questions his decision to name Ranira as the heir.
Allison. That's a planting a seed in her
mind that's going to. That's part of why when he says
that thing on his deathbed that seeds already planted that he
was. He did express doubt about her
rule way before that in private to his wife and she would take
that maybe as as something being said in confidence, confidence
which it kind of was. But it was also kind of he was
really drunk, which as 1/5 as a what, 18 year old at the time.
She may not have parched the two as cleanly as a as an older
person might have. And very pregnant now.
Now that I've been that pregnant I'm like no one asked me to do
anything or think about anything please.
Super chat from Bogsy, by the way.
Who says Congrats Kim? Yeah, so pressures start coming
from more places. Sean correctly mentioned how
Viserys wasn't preparing Rainier, which didn't help her
feeling of maybe eventually being set aside.
I'm sure Meanwhile, Allison is getting all sorts of pressure
from Otto to help pressure Viserys to name Aegon his heir.
So it's a you daughter go ahead and do this.
And he's doing it directly as well.
So they're trying to like double team him and other people are
doing this as well. Of course it never happens, but
he eventually pivots or adds to his strategy, imparting this
idea to Allison that Rainier will kill his her children one
day. Like, which isn't out completely
out of the question, but he's very much exaggerating this
claim, right? It's not by any means an
automatic, but he kind of made it seem like it would be.
So this is. Certainly it's like a self
fulfilling prophecy in in some ways or or however you want to
phrase it, like if you try to. Overthrow them.
They certainly are going to maybe try to kill.
Them right like by being so insistent that that's how this
is going to play out, you all but guaranteed that that's how
it's going to play out as opposed to taking this time when
everyone's still young to like let's let's bring everyone
together. Let's make sure that there isn't
children being put to the sword upon anyone's ascension here.
But no. It is a a sort of projection
too, because that was Otto's plan.
When he's thrown, he's going to kill Renera's kids.
So however much it he could or should believe that that would
happen it, I don't think he was just trying to scare Allison.
I think he did believe it, you know?
Yeah, and Allison was just trying to convey what she
thought was the truth at any given point.
And like, again, for Otto to like, sure, like, yeah, I would
be upset if my kid got me fired from, you know, my dream job.
But. Don't.
You know, you don't have to traumatize them in the process
as. You leave.
It's true. Yeah, that that's right.
He did say that when he was leaving, didn't he?
It was kind of like a little bit of like a parting shot, almost
like, well, she's going to kill all your children, so.
And it was almost like he was like going to like leave without
actually like saying them. Like I feel like she approached
him like when he was like about to just ride his horse right out
of there. He.
Was bitter. Right.
Yeah, a lot of dad failure across the board here.
So to recap how some of that happened, just in case some of
y'all forgot, as Sean pointed out, the whole Damon going out
with Rainier thing came to a head in part because Damon just
told Viserys what happened. Like Rainier said one thing, but
Damon just kind of admitted it all, you know?
And, and not to mention Mazaria reporting some things.
So Allison at first believes Rainier, but then starts to have
doubts because of these other alternate versions that come
through. And, and of course, so she goes
to do her own digging and goes to ask Kristen's like what do
you know about? Oh, I yeah, I slept with her.
Wait, wait, you slept with her? He just drops that right off.
Like he's so burdened with this guilt.
He couldn't wait. Like he just needed to be like
nudged to have that. He was like, Dupa, I'll tell you
anything. It's almost like blood when when
all Lars had to do was just like unwrap the torture devices.
He's like, you don't have to use that.
I'll tell you everything you know, I'll just tell you.
So obviously Chris and Cole becomes a huge factor in their
relationship. They notice him at the
tournament, he's named to the Kingsguard, he's path Dornish,
which I think they added that just purely to make him a
slightly more conflicting character for a Hightower.
Then there's the seduction, right?
She she gets all hot and bothered with Damon, who just
leaves her there 'cause he's got erectile dysfunction and I guess
that's. What happened?
Yeah. Yeah, that's kind of that's
that's how some people describe it.
It's it works for. Me.
I don't know. Yeah, he couldn't perform right
like he he couldn't. He couldn't.
He just left. Yeah.
And when we since we saw that before, it seems like a good
theory, but there's other possibilities.
Yeah, why he couldn't perform is more arguable.
But I think the fact that he if I think if he, if he could have,
he would have. And I think we see him other
times having issues with that, with Mazaria and like things,
things get on his mind and he's like, I don't want to have sex.
Huh. I for some reason always
interpreted it as like as soon as she showed any enthusiasm, he
like I, I saw it as like a much more like sinister, like
emotional manipulation abuse thing where like he didn't.
Well, of course, of course, but like I think, I think that's.
Why he can't get it up is that he feels guilt and we see in
this season he does feel guilt over this whole.
Good point. The guilt comes back now, yeah.
That's why he felt guilty and he couldn't go go through with it
in that moment. And yeah, she was all, all, all
into it, Yeah. That's why it's Millie Alcock
and not Emma Darcy in those scenes, because it was young
Rainier. This is that actress he those
scenes. Happened.
Yeah. He feels, Yeah, he feels the
guilt and the shame around that for sure.
Yeah. That's so fascinating.
Also, just quick note that I remembered too, of like, why
Allison? Why Allison kind of like flips
in in that moment too, is like Laris is the one who tells her
about Moon T being sent to her room.
I am still like who actually did that?
Like, do we think Viserys was the one who ordered it or like,
do we think it's possible that Laris, like, made sure that that
happened so that then he had a good report to send?
The wiki save Viserys did it, I'm pretty sure that's how I
interpreted it when it happened, but I'm I guess there's some
room for. That's what the maester says,
But I I was always like, for whatever reason, I was always
like, hmm, if that's like a pretty good, that's just like a
pretty good clue for anyone to have.
Like a servant would potentially be able to be aware of it.
Like Laris obviously knows that it happened.
And like that's another that's part of what leads Allison to be
like, huh, Rainier's not telling me the whole truth.
If she got a, you know, midnight delivery of moon team.
So schemes were potentially afoot.
But yes. That all led to to the bigs for
Kristen reveal. The big reveal.
So he eventually tries to run off with Rainier.
That doesn't work out. And then he goes to kill himself
and Allison saves him, which is huge because he becomes indebted
to her. And then they become inseparable
for a long time. They don't start their
relationship for quite a while. We'll come back to that later
because it's quite a while before it starts.
He becomes Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, but doesn't really
change how he behaves still kind of like her personal sworn
shield. Like he continues to behave like
that's his main role. And but in the context of our
discussion today as this pertains to Rainier and Allison,
he's like Otto is the constant like, oh, she's your enemy
presence, the Angel, the devil on her, her shoulder.
Kristen is the she's a bad person devil on her shoulder.
We're constantly saying Rainier is a bad person.
Rainier is disloyal. She's he's, you know, uses much
worse words, like she calls her a spider, calls her the C word.
And Anna's just as protective about Allison when if someone
says something bad about her, he's like, oh, no, it's
Rainier's fault that Allison would do that.
You know, I said that to Eamon. So this is part of reinforcing
Allison's beliefs. It's certainly an influence.
Like you have her own takes wouldn't be nearly as negative
if this person she's around all the time, just constantly
negative about Rainier and constantly in her ear about
she's bad, she's on immoral, she's etcetera.
Yeah, she's a spider. Yeah, like, again, for for
Allison to be the one who has always wanted to adhere the most
to custom and like norms. The fact that Cole is sitting
there as being like, you know, right near as the reason why I
have sullied my white cloak and like I'm I practically wanted I
was going to kill myself. Plus, you know, we can't forget
that he beat someone to death simply because they dare.
Just kidding. Like, you know, Kristen Cole was
racking up a lot of his own guilt and shame of of his
behavior and his inability to kind of hold multiple truths at
once, which might be like, I can have a complex relationship with
the Princess and also be an honorable knight.
No. OK.
And so. I, I do want to point out at
least once when Cole talked bad about Raniera, Allison snapped
back at him. She's like, hey, watch your
language. Like, we're, we're supposed to
be the, the side of, you know, honor.
And that wasn't a very honorable thing to say.
And he kind of feels bad. And in the meantime, whatever
Cole or Otto, whoever's saying Allison is cheating on her
husband. Allison is having children with
another like and it's oh. No, you've been reading, you
said Allison. I was so confused.
I was like, whoa, Sean, it's the crackpot theory.
OK? No, no, no, right here.
Right. Yeah, fair enough.
Right, like Allison did her duty and freaking diseased, falling
apart Viscera. She's still having sex with him
and Renera, who had this marriage to bring about this
alliance to a kind. Of attractive man.
Attractive man. Yeah, like she.
Got a good deal and that's not good enough.
She's still going to have sex with another guy and it's clear
to everyone like this is very disruptive to politics.
Morales, I don't know the the alliance itself, on and on and
on. True, these people are in
Allison's ear about what a problem or near is, but she
doesn't really need them in her ear about it.
It's she's Rene is creating the problem.
Everyone is seeing it. I also feel like we have to talk
about or at least briefly talk about like the the whole scene
while Rainier is having her escapade out in the city with
Damon, you know, exploring her life, getting to do the whole
like we're free and we get to break the rules kind of attitude
that Viserys summoning her to his room.
Like after we see that shot of her just like sadly, almost like
disassociating, comforting her baby in the middle of the night.
And then like tells her servant like it's pretty late.
And the servants like, yeah, I know, but like he's called you.
And then just like that, however many second shot of her just
like laying there while the Sarah's has sex with her is like
was such a deliberate and stark contrast of like what her sexual
experiences have been like and how sort of coercive they have
been and completely without any type of pleasure and like barely
with her consent. I would argue like was just
really brutal. And I think, of course, adds to
the way that she feels resentment over Rainier seeming
to have like get her cake and eat it too in a way.
And like, you know, Kristen Cole, you know, Allison was the
one who said like, God, he's Dornish.
And then it's like, oh, Rainier gets to like, lose her virginity
with the sexy night, like in the comfort of her own bedroom,
where is like Allison just being called in the middle of the
night to this old man's room while he has sex with her in a
way that she clearly isn't enjoying.
Like just, you know. 'Cause she was probably
attracted to Damon a little bit, if not a lot and and and Kristen
Cole, 'cause that came later. So she was clearly She was
almost certainly attracted to him back then too, before their
relationship began. Yeah.
Add that to the repression of potential feelings she may have
had by Rainier, and she's just like just a ball of like, I
can't do anything. So you kind of understand now
it's on. It's unfair to put all of that
on to Rainiera, but yeah, it makes sense that it makes sense
that it would be. It's kind of human to feel that.
Way. Yeah, it's understandable
character development. Yeah, yeah.
So we're getting to our halfway point.
One last question before that though.
Did would you say, Kim, that when she came out in the green
dress at the wedding and called her stepdaughter, was that like
kind of the official first ending of their friendship or
was that maybe just one of the bumps in the road?
I don't know, maybe would make too big a deal out of that, but
it was. So it's so famous.
It's in the intro weave now. I think it was certainly like a
line in the sand, like, you know, like a green line.
Yeah. Like I think that as we've, as
we've discussed, like all of branches were maybe being
extended before that attempts were being made to continue
communicating. And that was, I think, her being
like, I am no longer going to trust anything you tell me.
And I'm going to act in like, not only, I think, was she
drawing a line against Reinira, but against Viserys, too, Pretty
clearly, right? Like, no, I'm not going to show
up and be, like, your perfect little wife.
Like, I am officially, like, crafting my own agenda here and
doing what I can to, like, regain some sense of agency.
And yeah, that meant, I think, putting a pretty definitive end
to the type of relationship that she had had with Reinira and
Viserys up until that point, perhaps.
My question about that moment is, did Ranira realize that
Allison knew? That's the thing that I always
wondered. She might.
I think she should feel like yeah.
I'm also like, she was kind of busy, you know?
That's true. Dancing with Sir Harlan.
She wants to start with Damon like.
Checking out those hot more other hot Valerians in there and
all the other people. Yeah.
Maybe she was looking at Lena. You know, that that was a book
relationship they had, right. And she was she was there too.
Yeah. All right.
So moving past this early phase, we have the the funeral and
Eamon claiming Vegar, he loses his eye.
Allison slashes Rainier in response.
In that dramatic moment where they both just unleash on each
other with some of their frustrations, the very things
that they really wanted to say to each other that they had been
holding back what have duty, what have sacrificed or now we
see who you really are. Those these lines that were
shown to us in the earliest of trailers, some of the first
lines we ever heard about the show.
Nothing on nothing like unleashing on your best friend
because of perceived harm to your children or especially if
there's an implication that there will be more.
So then they're separated and basically don't see each other
very much for almost six years. And with that, it's a good time
for us to take a short break and come back to discuss the rest.
We are big fans of Magic Mind mental performance shot.
It's been super helpful to us this season because we're
putting out like 4 episodes a week during House of the Dragon
season. And you know, it's hard to stay
focused and and be full of energy when you are having to do
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So we would like to help you guys maybe try magic mind out
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That's a good call. Yeah.
People have talked about how it's helpful with recovering
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Here is what a magic mind shot looks likely.
That nice little green bottle, it's beautiful.
A little. Theme a little tasty yeah Green.
Exactly it matches me I mean yeah.
And it's pretty tasty. I like it.
You know, I. Actually really like the taste a
lot. I love adding it to my drinks
just to make it taste better. Like to make to make the drink.
Taste better to be clear, not the magic like I think the magic
mind makes my drink taste better.
I agree it's really good. It's you'd think like a a drink
that has all these like things that are good for your brain
might not taste good. It's like those things don't
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Well. But it's good.
It's like kind of lemony, a little bit fruity.
Well, how would you describe the taste, Sean?
I I don't like it straight up as much as you guys might.
It's it's, I think it's a little bitter and a little sour.
It's a little strong. I mean, it's just kind of a
concentrated thing. It's not like disgusting.
I just don't, it's not as good as like a sweet soda or
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Right on. What about you, Shay?
You mix it with your fruit drinks too, right?
Yeah, I like to mix it with a cran watermelon.
I think it matches really well. It's kind of like a matcha
flavor. But I mix it with other things,
other juices. I sometimes I'm like excited.
I'm like, oh, I wonder how this will pair with my juice today,
you know? And I am not a caffeine drinker.
Traditionally. I don't drink.
I've never been a coffee or energy drink drinker or anything
like that. So for me, it's my my first
experience with kind of a drink that gives me a little bit of a
pep both, you know, somewhat psychologically a placebo
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Yep. So they both drink it different
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that's great. We love having, we love having
that part of our show. It helps us, helps us work
better. So that's that.
Let's let's move on. You know, the Princess and the
Queen, as I mentioned in the beginning, was the novella that
introduced us to these characters before the World of
Ice and Power came out. There's an audio book version of
that read by Ian Glenn. If you all recall, that's Jorah
Mormont, right, who were Jorah's two biggest associations, a
Hightower and a Targaryen, when this Hightower, Daenerys
Targaryen boom. So it's all connected, my
friends. That's right, love it.
So before they we jump all the way to season 2, right, we have
the the dinner where they actually do have a reprieve.
This is kind of helps heal some of their relationship.
They toast each other. It goes pretty well.
In fact, it goes extremely well all around, minus the kerfuffle
at the end with Amond and and Luke and and Jace and all that.
But considering how well they those folks usually get along,
this is better than maybe could have hoped for, you know?
Who ordered Pig for that? They should have just not had
that on the menu. That should have just been like,
no pig allowed. Yeah, another just more just not
paying attention. Viseris like, well, probably not
Viseris's fault. We shouldn't put it on Viseris
when he was in that state. But yeah, someone should have
checked the menu. Yeah, you're right.
Rainier And Allison comes out and says Rainier will be a fine
queen right in front of her family.
Right. But it's also that night that
Viserys babbles about the prophecy in his sleep and
Allison misunderstands. And as we pointed out before,
she was a little bit primed for this, even though she just said
Rainier is a going to be a great queen.
Well, it's not her call. It's Viserys call who who's
going to be queen or not or king.
And she, you know, I know it's pretty easy from where we're
sitting to say how could she possibly have interpreted that
way? But again, this isn't her first
exposure to this concept. The the night at the fire with
drinking and all that, and it must have been pretty hard for
her. But at the same time, you know,
it's not her call. And, and Vasara said what he
said. I think it's also made very
clear that like even if that had not happened, like Otto
etcetera, like they all had the plans in place anyways, like the
coup would have happened regardless.
It just was a smoother process I think in that small council room
because Allison also happened to believe that that's what Vasaris
wanted. So she she fought the let's go
kill them right away scheme, but she was on board more.
But, you know, it's not hard to believe that had she had that
final, you know, exchange not happen between her and Viscera
slash. I was barely even like an
exchange. You know, it was more of a a
receiving of final words. You know, I think that things
probably would have played out similarly, but just with
Allison's in a much more disadvantaged position.
Yeah. Yeah, I think Tyler and
Lannister even said specifically, oh, so we can
proceed with our long laid plans with more confidence now, like
they were doing it one or the other.
I even think that if Allison hadn't heard those final words
and went to that council, she might have put up more of a
fight and might have ended up like Rainies.
Just find her quarters like I, I.
Don't. Not bees buried, No.
I don't think she would be buried like Otto is not going to
allow his daughter, but I don't might lock her daughter up, you
know? Yeah, for her own good or
whatever. For sure.
She clearly those final words did not actually cause the the
seizing of the throne by the Greens to happen.
No, it just it just threw a a monkey wrench in Allison
Raniera's relationship as well, because from Raniera's
perspective, she doesn't know about the prophecy
misunderstanding. This looks extremely this looks
extremely two faced. Like you just said, I'd be a
great queen. And then like a day later,
you're pushing your son like, did you lie ball to my face?
And of course, they, they do talk about this a bit later when
they have their Sept meeting and they both have to get over
these, you know, or get past these things that really look
bad, like from where the other one is sitting if they don't
have the context as to why the the other one made the decision
that they did. Yeah, and, and and it like
allows Allison to be much more like, to feel much more
righteous about what's happening, even though she
understands that it's like bad and awful.
But like, she does truly think that she's carrying out her
husband's dying wish until she doesn't.
Which is another reason why I just love that stepped scene
because it you watch the gears change in her head of being
like, Oh no, like I have to actually confront what I've done
here in a way that I didn't before.
You know, there's another interesting little thing that
happened in that council meeting.
We're talking about Cole's relationship earlier, if you
remember, he he slams bees. Berry's head ends up killing him
and Westland, the Lord Commander like draws his sword like he's
going to fire Cole from the he's like, you know, tells him drop
your sword and Cole turns the sword on him and won't do it.
And Allison says, you know, there's no need for this.
I I wasn't offended. Lower your sword.
OK. And Cole Ensemble over here, I
think is acting as sworn protector to Queen Allison, more
so than, you know, Knight Kingsguard.
Yeah, so he wasn't Lord Commander yet at least.
But you're right, I still agree with you.
In the in the context there, Otto is effectively ordering
Westerling to go execute Runner and her family, right?
Yeah. But when he refuses to do it
now, obviously this is something Allison specifically doesn't
want. It's like, whatever, you guys,
whoever should be on the throne, there's no chance Viserys wanted
his daughter to be murdered, right?
That that's not what we're supposed to do here.
So after Westlink's fired or or quits or whatever, Otto now
can't really give that command anymore.
Who can he now tell to go execute like Cole?
No way Cole's doing it. Which probably means no one else
in a Kingsguard. Like I think Cole's relationship
with Allison there stopped the arrest and execution of the
blacks. He didn't think of sending Arik
like Cole did later. That wouldn't have.
That wouldn't have worked. Then Eric hadn't defected, But
still, yeah, you're right. That's that's all very
interesting the way that played out between those kings card and
and like, if Cole had actually fought Westerling, he probably
would have won. But if he had lost, and maybe
maybe that's not, you know, the most likely scenario, most
likely Cole wins that fight, but it's not a sure thing.
And if they lose, then all of a sudden they're Cole's dead and
the only guy with a sword in that room is Westerling.
He can just do it. He's like you're all you're all
under arrest or they don't want to take that risk.
So Kristen Cole of course is is becomes up huge again and right
again at the beginning of season 2, though season 2 is not
chronologically very far after season one.
They had been growing apart Rainier and Allison while trying
to restart their friendship and at least finding some common
ground if not respect before it all fell apart again after
Viserys death. And another misunderstanding
that, as you all pointed out, wasn't crucial to the events
playing out the way they did, but definitely affected their
view of each other. Now, Season 2 has their roles
reversing somewhat. Allison starts gradually losing
power until we get to the point where we're at when we're
recording this at Episode 6, where she just lost her council
seat. Eamon doesn't really have
anything to do with her anymore. She's Kristen Cole's in the
field, Gwen Hightower's in the field.
Otto's not there. She has very little power,
probably the least power she's had since she was Emily Carey,
you know, And then and Rainier, I meanwhile, is gaining more
power, but also kind of struggling to wield her
authority in in ways that Allison was struggling with when
she had that similar level of authority.
Not quite as high, but so we have them going in opposite
directions. I'd say Allison's is softening
as her proximity to power goes away.
She could focus more on being a mother.
It's not necessarily what she wanted.
It's not necessarily what her life prepared her for, but it's
where she's at. Rainier, on the other hand, is
having to be more of a queen. And as we've seen in this recent
episode, she's turning to certain tools to inform her
authority and make people fear her a bit more.
That's something that maybe Allison never quite had, but
sort of did because one of the reasons Allison had so much
power is because Kristen Cole was always by her side.
And it was kind of like Cersei having the Mountain at her side.
It was people would think twice about not doing what she wanted.
So we start one of the earliest things in Season 2 is seeing
that, oh, now Allison and Kristen Cole are sleeping
together. And it's full of just.
Weird subtext and vibes like they're doing it in the bed
Rainier used to sleep in. The bed Rainier lost from
Virginia to Kristen Cole in Yeah, exactly like what is.
In either, like Rainier doesn't know this is even happening, so
we can set her aside briefly, But a what?
What is in Allison's head? She knows that was Rainier's
bed. She knows Al Rainier slept with
Cole. Time in there with her, you
know, right? Like, more time than Cole's even
spent with with Rainier. She has more memories in that
room than Cole does, right? For sure.
Like what is in Allison's head when she's like, am I?
Is this me getting the life that I wanted, living life like
Ryneiro would? Or is this just, is it something
else? What do you think about this
dynamic in general, Kim? This is super kind of hard to to
get at, but very interesting. It was, yeah, it, it kind of
caught me off guard. And I was also like, wait a
second, how long has this been happening?
Like, I my, my assumption was like, oh, this has been going on
and we're just now seeing it for whatever reason.
But apparently, like, I believe actors or director, maybe Ryan
Condill himself have confirmed that.
No, like, this is something that started up after Viserys died,
which I think is also interesting.
And yeah, so then it reads to me more like Allison is attempting
to have her own little side quest of I get to do whatever I
want. I get to experience sex for
pleasure like I finally get to have.
It's not as. Immoral in her eyes, like it's
still not righteous, but she's not cheating on her husband, the
king. You know, like she.
I don't. I think it would have been far
more unreasonable for me to imagine Allison doing this while
Viserys was alive. Yeah, it's still like breaks
the. Kingsguard role and all that.
It's still just like, you know, seducing someone that shouldn't
be seduced. But you're right.
It's not cheating on the king. It's a big difference like this.
It's not it's, it's, it's not treason anymore.
It's still bad, but not treason. And it's like this is perhaps
the first time that she has felt since she was a teenager that
her body is no longer meant to be solely of service to the
realm. Like, she has already produced
the heirs. One of her children is now king
like that part of her life of, like, you know, I need to be The
Good Wife who lets my husband have sex with me when I feel
like it. And pops out kids whenever I'm
supposed to like that. That's gone.
So now she is, yeah. Experiencing sex on her own
terms, perhaps. And yeah, it it is a little bit
hypocritical or just going against, I think some of the
reasons why Allison and Cole have, you know, held so much
fury or whatever you want to call it against Rainier.
But I'm all you know, Allison deserves to explore her life on
her own terms. Did.
You make a good point too, about it being kind of more on
Allisons terms here, because the sex act we see are Allison being
pleasured, right? Like Kristen going down on her.
We don't see Allison going down on him.
That's not what this is about, right?
Yeah, I don't know. She's on top, Yeah, the end
there, even though that's probably more traumatic maybe
for Elena to walk in on a view of.
But like, right. Like she's it.
They are. Of all the sex scenes that we've
seen in House the Dragon so far, they're the most female
centered. You know, I have agency here.
I'm doing something that is I'm I'm deriving pleasure first.
Yeah. You get much.
More that like, she's like, I'm going to get off right?
Then you then you see that it's about Kristen's pleasure.
I mean, even when it comes down to her like abusing him, like
physically assaulting him, right?
Like getting a little a little rough like it.
It's much more her, you know, leading things.
Yeah, she's clearly higher on the authority totem there, and
he's been subordinate to her since the beginning.
And then she's higher born. She's, you know, he's a knight,
he's supposed to protect women, etcetera.
There's just so many cultural elements that that set it up
this way. Which is also like Christian
just can't seem to escape these power dynamic like romance, sex
things where like I I it's. Just too hot.
Yeah, but I mean, I do kind of feel for ice skating.
Thank goodness I escaped all that.
Too hot for celibacy? But no, you feel for, I don't
know, maybe most people don't feel for Christian.
I feel for Kristen. I'm like, if I'm in his shoes,
we don't see how this got started and if I'm Kristen and
the the queen like it. Was the same.
It would be really hard for him to say no.
Yeah, you know. He's knocking the Yeah, he
enjoys it. He likes Allison, all of these.
Things he's not being. Coerced, forced or anything but
he's not able to just like. She saved his life like he feels
like he owes her his life like she can't say no to her in like
anything like. Yeah, yeah.
And like the fact that Rainier was the one who elevated him to
the Kingsguard position in the 1st place, I think is also so
fascinating. Like part of the subtext, part
of the subtext, like a that it was like seen as a great honor.
But also even Rainier doing that was Rainier going against the
custom of the time. Like he was not the favored
person for the Kingsguard, but she selected him specifically
because he had battle experience in a way that no one else did.
Which again, now we see we get the full impact of that in
Season 2 here, now that he's actually the one leading all of
the battle strategy as war breaks out entirely.
Yeah. I just, there's there's a lot
going on there with Cole. And I find him incredibly
frustrating as like the malleability I think of his
morals to sort of suit his ego or to like to affirm what he
thinks is right in the moment versus like, actually taking
into account complexity in the world and like what?
I don't know, other other options.
Like, I'm like, OK, Like, you know, he jumped straight from
like, I, I absolutely think that the, the dynamic between Rainier
and Cole and their sex scene was much more to me, like, coercive
and like, he really was trying to say no.
And Rainier really pushed him beyond his comfort.
Whereas Yeah. And like the end, while we don't
see how it starts with Allison, I do think that it's fascinating
to see like, the difference between like, God, like the slow
scene of him removing his white cloak before he had sex.
With me and. Like how like they did the
reverse where like he's, he's just like, all right, that was
like, all right, put my cloak back on.
Like he seemed so much more LAX about the fact that like his
cloak was being sullied by that behavior.
And then again he like does the mega projection with Eric when
he. Oh yeah.
Dirty clothes, yeah. You've dirty dirt cloak.
It's physically dirty. It's actual dirt.
Yeah, like this is metaphorical dirt aside.
That's why I'm so curious, like you said, Kim, to know how it
got started. I was dying to know who, like
how it was initiated and what circumstances.
Yeah. Yeah.
So curious. What would Rainiera think if she
knew? This is a big what if?
Like if Rainier found out somehow and it is possible that
at some point in the story it comes up, she she learns that
Rainiera that Allison and and Kristen Cole had a relationship.
Would it be like what? What any idea?
Like I'm not even sure how she would react.
She'd be maybe confused, be like, huh, that's interesting.
Like really Allison sleeping with the Kingsguard?
Like she's really. Yeah, I think she'd just be
surprised that Allison was sleeping with anyone, you know,
like, I think that's what would surprise her more than anything.
And I think she'd I think she'd be bothered and then not kind of
like know why she feels bothered.
And she thinks she felt she feels bothered because of
Kristen. And she kind of realizes she's
more bothered about, like, someone slept with Allison.
You know, I think she would not realize why she was bristling
about it. But then, and maybe she would
have, maybe now that she's with Mazaria, she would have clarity
about why she is so bothered by this, right?
Yeah, like if you're going to break the rules, I'm right.
I'm right over here. Like if we're, if we're throwing
everything to the wind, let's, let's revive this here.
I think we've put more thought into it than she would.
He's got a weird. Concerns.
He's got bigger. He might not care.
Yeah. I feel like if anything she
would just be like freaking fine good for her but like we're
still all fucked. So a very interesting parallel
emerges with the deaths of their close family members.
Of course, I mean, Jaharis and Luke.
And both of them feel guilty about it because they both take
partial responsibility for how some of it plays out.
Rainier takes responsibility for just saying, I want Eamon and
not realizing that it's someone might actually kill somebody
over that comment and kill the wrong person.
She didn't realize what her had the effect of her words.
And it's like, obviously it's Damon's fault really.
But Rainier being a very conscientious person is like,
well, I need to understand how my orders can be perceived to be
more cautious with my words. Allison's guilt is a little
different. It's just her daughter caught
her on the same night she was just like, I'm sorry for piling
the trauma on doing something that's sinful at the time.
You know, she that certainly adds to it.
But they also in part get to blame each other for these
things. Like Allison says, OK, well,
Raniera has sent this assassin or it was sent under her
authority and vice versa. Luke's death as well.
And it's not really true, but you can see why they depended on
the. I mean, it kind of happened
under your watch, right? There's a lot to be said about
their respective relationships with their children and like the
rivalry and the way that they've tried to manage that.
And I think that that certainly adds to like was aimed in the
I'm going to bully Luke on Vergar mindset because like his
parents had failed to like help him reconcile the bullying that
he himself had experienced when he was younger.
And the fact that like, you know, and again, we see Allison
even say that a little bit more directly here in the in the
latest episode where she says like, you know, have the how
does I don't I forgot how she phrases it like, have the
misfortunes of your childhood like not been indignity of your
youth, of your child, of your youth, like not been, you know.
Efficiently or whatever. Yeah.
And like, and also just the fact that the way that they act in
private with their children, I think is also like a very
interesting contrast. Like Allison hits her kids, hits
the boys at least. Like she's she's obviously much
softer with Helena, but like, you know, she physically
reprimands them, she verbally abuses them and like, you know,
doesn't do a whole lot to like bolster their self-confidence or
court. Like she specifically, I think
even tells Aegon like you can do whatever you want to aim and in
private, but in public and like around the other children, you
like, you need to show him deference.
And it's like, well, we can see we can see the result of that,
you know, behind closed doors, like free reign to beat up on
one another. Abuse has now gotten like nearly
gotten Aegon killed. And I think that she's only just
now coming to terms with the idea that again, like, not only
was she a child raised in the Red Keep, but she raised her
children in the Red Keep and she might have accidentally passed
along all of the the traumatic upbringing to them.
And she's she's like watching the consequences unfold in front
of her in a way that Rainiera, I think like, has such a softer
relationship with Jace. And like, yes, like they butt
heads, but they do it in a way that feels like there's like,
mutual respect there. And you don't get the sense that
Rainier would ever, like, lift a hand to her kids in the way that
we saw Allison do. Absolutely, yeah.
I think the the criticism of Rainiera is just the how she
created her children in the 1st place.
She created, she created risk for them by who their father
was. You know, that's by them not
looking Targaryen the way that everyone would expect them to.
So it wasn't how she raised them.
It was who she chose their father, you know, So it was like
a which is a very like incisive way of looking at their
personalities, like a one was free and loose with her choice
of husband, but a good mother. The other was had a very
specific husband, but you know, wasn't as good of a mother
preparing them for the world in a different way.
So that's an interesting. Yeah, and the the blame also
like I do not mean to wholly be like Allison is the reason her
children are the way they are because certainly Viserys is
neglect is a huge part of why Aegon and Eamon to act the way
that they do. And also for Rainier as part
like staging Leonor's death and marrying Damon was again like a
very bold choice, to put it gently, of like.
Old and unusual, yes. Right like Damon is also a very
unstable stepfather to those boys and like also not great at
setting examples or creating stability within the family,
which then trickles out to instability within their their
attempt at ruling here. You can sense that and and Jace
calling for Damon, they're like, yeah, he's being like
politically minded, sensible, whatever.
But I think, you know, there's this root core with this is, you
know, his third father figure and he he wants to have a father
figure around. And I I think Rainier is kind of
blind to that aspect of it. Or maybe she knows and it it
hurts her in her core to think that that, that she's not enough
of a parent for her sons. I don't know.
But yeah, I think I think that's why Jake Bring keeps bringing up
Damon. I think he he kind of admires
him in a lot of ways. Yeah, and like wants and like
the fact, again, not right near his fault that Damon behaves
abusively towards her. But like you also kind of see
Jace trying to have to be protective of his mother against
Damon, which is also like not a great position for your children
to be in. Of like him needing to try and
take on that protector role while he himself needs
protecting. And then, you know, Luke dies
and it's everyone's, you know, everyone's in shambles.
And again, the generational trauma is just a, you know, a
real, real gut punch here. It's worth noting and, and I
want to be clear here, I think Allison and Raniera are my two
favorite characters, you know, and both of them have flaws and
virtues. But when Raniera and Damon were
coming up with this plan to kill her son's ostensible father, it
wasn't a consideration how it might affect their kids.
Like, kill them off the sons might be.
I mean, that's, that's a sort of abuse, you know?
Maybe they glossed over he's not their real.
Father but. I was always very bothered by
the fact that Rainier just keeps to the party line with her sons
privately. Like, they give her many
opportunities to just, like, come clean and have an honest
moment with us, and she still just doesn't.
And yeah, I agree, I don't think it's it's, it's not good
parenting. It's the it's, it's going to
traumatize these kids for the rest of their life.
I mean, Luke case very short life.
But either way, it's not going to lead to, it's going to
continue this generational trauma that we're talking about.
On the flip side, while Renera, her kids get 2 dads to help
raise them and she has, as far as I could tell, pretty much no
other responsibilities. So hey, well turns out she was a
good mom. Allison is trying to be the
queen in a man's world. Like she doesn't have a star as
helping and in fact is helping him with the kingly duties.
Yeah, so wow, she didn't have enough time for her kids.
I'm not saying that makes it OK, but I am.
I just do want to point out it's not as simple as Allison did a
bad job, Reneer did a good job. I also had more demands on here
and Raniera made some big mistakes.
Too. Yeah, Raniera's in this like
blended household, right? Like she has, she has more
parents in the household to take care of the kids, spend time
with them for a period of time then she knows what to do with,
right And. And now we've got Masaria
Stepmom you. Know yeah yeah Jace is used to
this he's used to having beards and and just.
Got a fourth, a fourth parent, you know. 2-3 dads, two moms,
it's all, it's just Targaryen. You know, that's how they go,
Yeah. It is it is so interesting,
though, because like certainly Rainier is choice.
I mean, right, like obviously she chose to have children with
Sir Harbins wrong, but I am it's like what alternative was there
at least within the show? Like I feel like they went out
of their way to have her have that conversation with Lenore
and be like, we tried having children and it didn't work.
And if she is heir, like she has to produce a child in order to
continue the line of succession. So like maybe after the first
one, she should have tried to pick someone who would have
silver hair. But I'm also like.
That's that's pretty shady on its.
Own. Yeah, yeah.
Or just try harder with Lane or like series like bring a man
into the bedroom. I don't know like.
I. I think it's important enough to
maybe. We don't know what they tried.
Yeah, we don't. Know we don't actually know what
they tried, but did they try fermented crab?
That's what Davos says would work.
I don't know. I'm I'm just saying like I don't
think they tried. Everything right, right and
exactly to to your point, like she didn't pull a Marjorie
Tyrell from what we know of and be like.
I doubt it. Yeah, I doubt it.
She did that. But some of the maesters
believed all sorts of things, all sorts of depraved sexual
acts happened. But who knows?
So the SAP comes up kind of twice in a row for the next two
interactions. We have the letter that Rainier
eventually reads that we talked about earlier, and she goes,
take this one last chance, even though it really there really
wasn't a chance here. It was a way for them to have a
conversation and to settle a few things and to just just talk a
few things out, admit to each other what really happened with
those deaths. Like, yeah, I didn't order that,
you know, I didn't order that, etcetera.
They have that heart to heart. And then the prophecy discussion
comes up again. And this is something that I
want to consider moving forward because there is a decent bit of
evidence that Allison is still researching.
She's curious about her end of it, and this might be something
that comes up later if she digs deeper and discovers something.
I'm not this again, this is not a book plot.
So we really have. I'm not like dancing around what
might happen. I really have no idea.
So I do think that's potential groundwork for another, maybe
parallels between them or connection between them.
Just something that seems kind of interesting.
Do you agree with that, Kim? Is that did you catch that as
well or something you're expecting or just what do you
think about this? Yeah, it, it is a super
interesting layer, I think, to, to what they're trying to do
with them going forward. I I do just, I really love that
they were able to add in that conversation to give us
Allison's ability to, yeah, have to really kind of contend with
the fact that she was wrong. And then I love the fact that
she's now like digging around for written evidence of this
prophecy and like, oh, is she actually going to stumble upon
something? Is she going to give up that
quest pretty soon? But like the way that she had to
almost convince herself or like trying to say like, oh, it
doesn't it doesn't actually matter.
Like it doesn't matter, you know, the the wheels in motion.
There's nothing we can do about it now.
But you can tell that she doesn't actually believe that
deep down yet. And she's like still trying to
kind of either justify what happened or get more information
as to like what Raniro was talking about and what Viserys
is last words like really truly were like.
That seems to be her big. Sort of the the thread that
she's going to pull on, I think as we as we move forward with
her. She knows the phrase the Prince
that was promised that. That's the phrase that Reneira
reacted to. So if she's looking for that
phrase specifically in books or the Song of Ice and Fire or any
sort of dreams written by any Targaryens, especially Aegon,
Yeah, could get really interesting there.
And it could, it could get really dark.
Like Allison could feel even more guilt.
She'd be like, oh, I see. Like now I get why Rainier?
And like, now she's like, oh, I'm on the wrong side.
Like my I want my family to win, but I don't want my family to
win because what if this prophecy is true?
It could just create an enormous amount of conflict for her.
And that could be very interesting, very dark.
And the fact that they that the show created like, you know,
that this cat spa blade that had its own significance within Game
of Thrones, that that now has the prophecy inscribed on it,
that Amond now has that dagger in his possession.
He seems to be the only one who might be able to translate like
High Valyrian, Like they've added so many like little like
tidbits here that could get could continue to kind of get
teased out here. I agree.
So the other moment at the Sep that's relevant that Allison
doesn't know Raniero was involved in and Raniero doesn't
know the impact it had on Allison yet is the riot now?
What's interesting about it is Allison gets a wound on her left
arm in the exact same spot she cut Rainiera.
So that's part of what makes this interesting is if it comes
back around, she finds out that it was Rainiera slash Missouri
that started this riot, she'll be like, this wound came from
Rainiera. It was like it was like a
balancing or a getting even. Even though it wasn't fully
intentional that way. I thought that was pretty cool.
I'm not sure there's a lot to say about it other than to point
to it, but if either of y'all or any of y'all have something to
to add to that the the riot and how this is kind of rebalancing
things. Was the Lord of the tides of the
episode where this happened in episode 8 in season one?
Well then they're written by the same woman, Eileen Shamrock.
This episode and episode 8 switch all adds mass to its
intentionality of of this. Boom nice very good I love it.
I also it, it just reminds me of the notion that Allison's
because of her, her faith and her connection to, to the faith
of the seven. And like how religious she is
that she I think has more of a sense that like gods are
punishing her at any given point or that like there is a little
bit more weight behind things that happened to her as if it's
retribution for her misbehaving. I think that not only was she
feeling personally guilty that like Helena came in and saw her
having sex with Christian Cole that night, but she seemed to
think that like Jaharis death might have been punishment from
the gods for for her sins. Yeah, I think she did think
that. Yeah, I think that's what she
thinks. Cuz I think I mean a lot just
kind of the way it goes with that type of mentality, right.
Like, yeah, as as as illogical as it seems to me, I'm like,
well, it sure hurt Helena a lot more than it hurt you, Allison,
but that's how it goes. I I very much believe that
Allison feels that it was her punishment, her punishment.
Yep. Even if it isn't some sort of
Mystic karmic justice, she still and Kristen play a role in
protecting the royal family. And instead of doing that, they
were having a sexual affair. So there's maybe a specific
reason for the guilt beyond a mystical one, you know?
Yeah, it's. It's sin and just regular old
responsibility. Like where were you when the bad
things were happening to your family?
You know, like I was having pleasure, which you're not.
Which she's already conditioned to, but very low on her list of
what's important. You know, she's kind of denied.
To her or feel or just feel shame about.
Yeah, right. Right.
Yeah, shame is, is almost certainly what she's feeling.
Yeah, among other things, but probably that number one.
All right, this is our our last non spoilery question, which is
the potential impact of Mazaria on this whole scenario, which we
have Kristen Cole's impact, which is started long ago, but
Mazaria is the newest sort of wrinkle and that could affect
both of them and the a couple. Here's a couple reasons why.
First of all, just like I wonder what Raniera would think of
Allison and Cole together, like what reaction she would have.
It may not be a big deal, but I would be curious.
I also wonder what Allison would think if she knew Raniera in
Missouri had a relationship. She might feel that it's another
version of her like jealousy. You know, like that Raniera can
be free and do these things that she couldn't.
It's also maybe like it's not like our real world where a lot
of religions frown on same sex relationships, but the faith
isn't exactly pro to women hooking up either.
You know, they're not as it's not the same as the modern
world, but they're not, they're not big on that either.
Have you seen on Olivia Cook's story?
She shared some great fan art of Allison's reaction where she's
just like oh God oh damn it oh fuck the drinking she's upset.
I highly recommend looking at her Instagram story or Twitter
or whatever. That's great.
Do we talk about the preview? No, not yet.
I'm talking. About that we can.
Do that during the spoiler section.
As soon as Shawn's gone. Wait, we don't do it for the
part, but yes. One last little bit on this
then. Oh yeah, Go ahead, Shawn, Go
ahead. I wanted to say that I think
similarly, we've probably thought more about it than
Allison had she? I think she's got bigger stuff
in her mind, maybe the one. I don't think she even knows who
Masari is. Maybe not.
Yeah, she. Might but but but the idea of a
lesbian affair still might intrigue her, make her jealous
or something. Or just give her some
realizations being like, oh, that's what these feelings are.
Oh, you can do that. Wait, two women can?
Whoa, I never thought of that. Raniero was trying to kiss me
when? We were child.
Aside from that affair, though, something about Missouri, I
wanted to bring up something from your last Cast of Kings
episode. Kim is something that we we
didn't catch. There was a particular
importance to that food being shipped from Ranira to King's
Landing because remember, part of the fear of the populace
after that Dragon's head was brought through was Ranira's
going to want to want retribution.
We're in danger of how we're coming and burning our city now.
No, no, actually she's sending us food.
Like they said, even now she thinks of us even now, like they
made sure to put that. Spin like she loves a good
catch. Really good catch.
So another little dynamic little wrinkle to the Mazaria Rainier
relationship is Mazaria's stated goal of she wants to get back
the Hightowers. What she doesn't yet know is it
wasn't Otto that burned her establishment.
It was Laurie's getting the go ahead from Allison's.
Allison gave the like, she didn't know who was being
targeted. She didn't know who she was
giving the go ahead to target, but she was like, I can I know
who the head of the snake is? Well, you take care of that for
me. And he's like, yes.
So if Mazaria ever finds out that Allison did this, it could
put Rainier in a weird position where the person she's empowered
to be, her Master of spies specifically wants to use this
position to revenge herself on the Hightowers.
Does that include Allison? Would Rainier be OK with that?
It's a wrinkle. I don't know.
I'm not saying maybe she'd be. Go ahead, kill her.
I don't care, you know, but but I kind of doubt it.
I kind of doubt she'd just be that cold towards Allison.
So that's a that's an interesting little wrinkle.
Don't think you thought about, has that come up at all with
y'all Kim or is that something you thought about?
I hadn't thought about that until just now, but that is a
really good point. And it's also interesting that
like even Allison's and Laris don't have quite the same firm
relationship that they did at the time that that order was
made. So it's like there's more
wrinkles there, like. Loris would be more likely to
throw her under the bus right now, right?
Yeah, like there's so much more finger pointing that that can
unfold here and now there's layers to to the relationships
that everybody has within that too.
Well I don't disagree with you Oshea that Loris might throw
Alison under the bus. I also think that Loris might re
up his relationship with Alison because he's got to find new
allies because Aymonds is clearly Aymond is clearly
against him. I think even if he did that, it
would be a facade. I don't think his, his.
He's really thrown his lot in with Allison to as the, like,
future of, of, of his, you know? Yeah.
To be fair, everything he does is a facade, so not really
throwing his lot with Aegon either, right?
He just. I think he genuinely sees Aegon
as his route to to secret power. I think he sees it as his best
mechanism is he just rules through Aegon and he's a puppet
figurehead. I, I, I don't know that I think
Laurie's has a, a goal past that.
Like, I think that's pretty much the pinnacle of what he could
hope for, right? If if a relationship with
Allison would help him control Aegon more, which it very well
might, then I could see that angle.
But I think otherwise, yeah, 'cause she doesn't have that
much power anymore, and that's part of what he cares about.
Well she doesn't have that much power then.
She's not that valuable to him, but she might have leverage over
his over her son, which that is a form of power.
Especially considering where. Exactly.
She might have leverage over the grandkids eventually, especially
if the longer term Loris thinks and Allison doesn't have
official power, but she still has some effective power, She
has contact, she knows people, etcetera.
It's a massive reduction of her power.
It's not a complete obliteration of it.
It's not zero for any by any means.
Yeah, it's just it's just a lot less than she had.
OK, so Sean, we'll we'll go ahead and excuse you now.
Get out, we don't want to spoil you my friend, but we got a
couple things to talk about with Kim spoiler wise.
Thank you, Sean. If you're if you're unsullied or
if you're avoiding the preview for next week, which I know some
of you book readers are avoiding the preview.
So now is your your chance to get out of here.
Spoiler warning. So nice talking to you again,
Sean. Bye, Sean.
See you next Monday, Sean. Great takes today as usual.
OK. Oh, you got so much larger.
You have that. Such a great background there.
The great. I love your foresty.
Zoom me out. So, OK, so the you had a thing
from the trailer you wanted to talk about.
Let's start with that, since that's been kind of queued up.
Oh, I just, I thought about the fact there's like a shot of like
Allison's like walking into somebody of water.
It's live Allison's reaction. Yeah, it's the Lady in the Light
vibes, right? Yeah, we've been seeing that
since the beginning of the. Season to learning about Mazaria
and and Rainier. Yeah, I've been seeing it a
bunch. Kevin.
I agree she psychically has like sensed like right here.
I kissed another woman. I must.
There's been a disturbance in the full.
Time to go drown myself. Yes, I yeah, that's all.
That was my big spoilery previously.
But we've been seeing that shot for a long time.
And we wondered at the beginning of the season whether it was
going to be about blood and cheese.
And now it seems like it's just about her powerlessness, right?
Like it's that she's she doesn't have.
Anything new like may as well take a walk, yeah?
I think, yeah. Maybe she's depressed, maybe
she's suicidal, but. I don't know.
I don't know what to think of it if it, if we're, I don't know if
we're reading something darker into it than there is.
And it is just like a meaningful moment out there.
Or if it is dark I I'm not sure really.
My best guess is that it there, it's gonna, it's gonna have some
sort of like religious symbolism to it or something, a little bit
of like a cleansing vibe. She's done that before in the
season where she like, seems to like bathe herself with like,
intensity. And she's, she's scouring
herself, right? Yeah.
Yeah, when she was trying to rub the sins off just the way like
Cole was trying to rub the blood off his sword.
Yeah, that was that was very good symbolism there.
So another big question we have here that that I think is really
fun is we we know one thing that's coming in the book,
probably maybe even the season, the taking of King's Landing,
which means Rainier will have Allison as a prisoner, which is
like, whoa, what's going to happen there?
Especially if you got Mazar in the mix, as I brought up before.
That might be a little wrinkle, if you might be.
Remember what Mazaria suggests. It's awful in the book, she's
like, make them all horrors. Like make them all like, just
any man can have them. It's like.
And they're so there's a love talking about bastards.
Get some bastards on the beach, is what she says.
Right. So I think this is what they've
set up. This is why Mazar is going to be
so nasty. If that's the way they go, it's
because she specifically has it in for the Hightowers.
Retribution. Yeah, for sure.
And I wanted to talk about, so people keep asking, like, what?
What at all evidence would there be for this, for this connection
in the book? And I think if you reread the
book, yeah, it's thin. But why does Rainiera take
Mazaria's word for it for so many things?
Why does she trust her so closely?
About Damon. About Allison.
Metals. About Adam, about all these
people that you might think she had a closer connection to.
Yeah, you could say she respects her skills.
She she just trusts her, whatever.
But a queer reading of the text says they had an intimate
relationship, and I don't think that is.
I don't think that can pass to fly in the face of Canon.
I think it is totally reasonable for her to just respect Mazaria
though. That might be the way they go,
and that could have been the way they go.
But yeah, it's certainly suggested that there's a
personal reason for her to trust her so much, and for and for
Rainier or, and for Mazaria to push Damon away.
Yeah. And here's what I want to say is
that even even when Damon comes back, like in the book, we hear
the Damon keeps sleeping with Mazaria, right?
Well, I don't know if I think that would happen in the show
because it really doesn't seem like Mazaria would get back with
Damon. It doesn't seem like Damon would
get back with Mazaria all around.
I take it as that's the beard. That's the cover story for them
sleeping together. Like, you know what?
I. Mean they're all in a room
together. Yeah, like you, you say like,
oh, Damon's with Mazaria, but really what's happening is
Mazaria's with Rainier and I, I think that they won't have Damon
and Mazaria get back together in the show, is my take.
Yeah, I didn't think that they would either.
I read that as like that they they had just like lifted the
Damon Massaria relationship and inserted it into the season one
timeline to like seat her in as a character early and that like
that that chapter is close. OK, Yeah, yeah, they.
Kind of moved it around like he had the relationship with her
that early in the book, but it wasn't like, right.
It wasn't that big of a, it wasn't the same depth or
intensity that. It had to show cause like in
fire and blood. Don't they say like, you know,
like Rainier knew about it and didn't care that like Damon and
Massari? Yeah, let him slake his his, his
thirst where he will, and I'll slake mine.
And then the maester makes a little snarky remark about oh,
Rainier just wants to eat food or whatever.
But another another impression of that could be he can do what
he wants. I'm sleeping with other people
too, you know, like you could also look at it as that.
That's how I read it, yes. Yes, the Maestra's being snarky
about food, but she's not taking us.
What? She just doesn't care about sex
at all? That seems unlikely.
She's sleeping with other people and she doesn't care if he
sleeps with someone else. Too, That's that's been like
part of their their character that this is the part of them
that they feel free about that they don't, they are too
privileged to let go of. They don't.
They refuse to give give that up in in based on the need of the
state. Like they're like, oh, I can't
do these things because the state requires me to have true
born children. That's the sort of rules
flaunting that Allison's been upset with since the beginning
that is consistent with their characters.
OK, Can I address them in the chat right now?
And I see it a lot. We've talked about it already,
but I'm just going to say it again.
No Tom Bombadil, it's a funny that that's your name.
It is not improvised. The kiss was not improvised.
This was planned since preseason 1.
Sonoya Mizuna was cast with the knowledge that it could be a
potential romance between Mazaria and Rainiera.
The execution of it is what was unscripted or improvised.
The fact that this was going to escalate to this point, it was
all it. It's crazy that that would be
completely improvised. Y'all like that was very much
planned. Yeah, it would be so weird for
them. Just like, you know what, they
had a good kiss there. Let's throw that in, you know?
No, no, that was they added it because they knew it was coming
and it felt right. And they kept that take.
They did a lot of takes that didn't have a kiss.
And they decided since it was going to be added eventually and
this seemed like it, it felt right for them.
Like, wait, let's do it now. If it hadn't been that moment,
it would have been Episode 7-8 or early next season.
Exactly. It wouldn't.
It was going to happen. It was going to happen either
way. Yeah.
So, so you're right, it was improvised, but that's that's
that's a very incomplete version of it because it was planned
since before the show even started.
Yeah. And so I want to bring up
connect this to a theory that I have about this Mazaria Rainier
plotline intersecting with the Moon of the Three Kings plotline
intersecting with Sylvana, Sand and SE OK, so facts are we know
we have a lesbian relationship of Essie and Sylvana with their
figurehead of game and pale hair, right?
We know we have a character, Sylvie, who is associated with
Mazaria. We know Mazaria is queer.
I think it stands to reason that Mazaria will leave Rainera and
be folded into this plot line of having a figurehead.
And I think it'll be add to this tragedy of them splitting and
Mazaria throwing her lot in with someone else.
That's my theory at this point, whether Sylvie is the other
person or Diana has anything to do with whoever else is this
other. I think Mazaria will be the
queer populist. Yeah, that we see 100.
Percent because the law of conservation of characters one
Also two, that if Rainier turns darker and darker, that's why
Mazaria would reject her because of she's no longer good to the
population. She doesn't want right.
She's OK with darkness, but not when.
It's if it's towards the common people, if she's tax overtaxing
them, which is like a big part of the book or, or just, you
know, Meg or with teats, whatever.
However the show portrays that that is a very like groundwork
laid reason for them to split. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, I think that's totally dead on.
I wouldn't be surprised if that's how that unfolds.
You've been right so far. It'll be so tragic, so painful,
right? Well, we know that, yeah.
Especially is actually with another woman, it's part of it
'cause I like she has another relationship like even more.
I know I, I hope that we get some, some brief interlude of
like at least one more pleasant scene between them or at least
some little some stage of like stability in that dynamic
between them. But I'm not super optimistic
that. I'm curious, do you, I mean,
obviously one of the other theories in the book is that
Mazaria is the influence that leads Helena to be extra
depressed, hear about mailor, etcetera.
Do we think Mazaria would be so cruel as to be petty with
Helena? Do we think that's spin?
I think these yeah. Yeah.
I still think I lean towards it's lorries that is more at.
Fault. I think it's more likely.
Than Mazaria. But I still wonder what could
happen in there. Like to make Mazaria be cruel to
Helena. Just because she's a Hightower?
Yeah, because she's highborn. I don't know.
She sees her as privileged. Helena puts her foot in her
mouth. I don't know.
But I can also like Rainiera has
already show Rainiera has already been so protective and
like defensive of Helena that yeah, like I I feel like the the
Rainiera Masara relationship would have to significantly sour
before or it would. Or it could be why it's sours.
This could be you. Know why it's sour?
Hightower revenge thing that she's may not be on board with,
Yeah. She's like focused on this,
like, get over it. But you know, like we have
different things to focus on than your revenge here maybe.
I'm kind of assuming Missouri will go like really for the
revenge angle against the Hightowers, but that may not be
it may not be as intense as I'm saying, but that's certainly it
would create a lot of conflict. It would be a reason for them to
split up or consider splitting up or to maybe for Missouri to
start poisoning her mind about Damon.
Just all that wrapped in there somewhere, one way or the other.
Yeah, so much tragedy to come. I want to say one thing long in
the fandom, in queer parts of the fandom, there's been a
refrain of Rainier and Allison hooking up in the dungeon.
I just want to say we've gotten one step closer, whether that's
a kiss, whether that's actually hooking up, it's it's a meme
within this fandom to say dungeon sex.
And frankly, that was not even remotely, I think on the table
up until the Mazaria case. And now I it becomes less
crackpot to me all the time. So I just want to throw it out
there. I believe it.
I've. Probably been.
Through that. But yeah, clearly people are
talking about it. We'll see.
It's certainly going to be an industry, but if having them
back together. In a strange, you know, in a
very reduced and uneven power dynamic like that could get just
there's a lot of potential there.
And with all the other influences like Larry's Aegon,
Mazaria in particular, and Damon.
Damon, Yeah. And by then, maybe Kristen Cole
will be dead too, which might be like, certainly affect how
Allison feels. I don't know if I won't affect
Rainier all that much. He's like who again?
Oh yeah, that guy. I forgot about him.
It's been a long time. The.
Fact that the fact that he's so hung up on the grievances
against her and she's just like. He has no idea she hasn't said
his name or heard of. Yeah, like total run one of
those rent free situations. It's the like, you know, Don
Draper, I don't think of you at all like.
Yes, I made that meme, Kim. I did.
That's exactly what I I, I someone else made the the Thanos
meme variant on it. There was like a few.
All right. Any, any last parting thoughts
about Rainier and Allison that we didn't get to any any
expectations or just anything else you want to say about the
characters or their their connection or anything like
that? One thing I would say, which
maybe it's just maybe it's just me in my corners of the Internet
where that are popping up in front of me.
But like, I feel like I I keep kind of seeing people say that
they think House of the Dragon is doing a disservice to Rainier
and Allison by making them more like soft in some of their
decisions or more magnanimous, to use another word, are.
They more dragon cock in there. But like, I just I, I'm, I'm not
getting that aspect. Like I don't think that they've
been reduced simply to like women don't like war stereotype
like I think. Are the stereotype in the book,
They're the they're the character in the book, right?
Yeah. Written the way a minister would
write read the yeah Also, if Rainier gets darker, she has
it's more interesting if she turns dark rather than just is
that way the whole time you. Know yeah, I just I do I I think
that like I was not expecting to enjoy seeing their characters
fleshed out the way they happen on the show.
And I just I think that both like all the actors and the
writers are doing a phenomenal job and the directors like, I, I
think that people are really bringing their A game with just
giving us like such like dynamic and and like deep, deep stories
for these women that I really appreciate.
So and I love heading to have chatted about them so
extensively with you too. I liked how much that the they
have room to add depth to their character or like the show has
given them, you know, it's not like they get to improvise a
whole lot clearly a little bit they do, but they don't like it
to improvise a lot of lines and things like that.
But they get to add a lot of facial expressions and body
language and things like that, that that's where some of the
like Ray Millie Alcock looking and Millie Carey up and down.
I don't know that that was scripted, but a lot of people
noticed that she was like, that was definitely a look you get
when you're like, well, you're checking them out, you know.
So that might be, you know, a good example of just the actors
adding something to it that they decided to.
So I like that a lot. That's neat.
Cause 'cause these characters, we, we pay so much attention to
them. Those, those things really come
out. Thank you so much for coming on,
Ken. This was a fantastic discussion
about two of the most important characters on the show.
Please tell everyone where they can find you.
They've they've heard it, but it bears repeating.
Yeah, I'm doing a weekly House of the Dragon recap podcast over
on Decoding TV with David Chen and Jesse Earle.
So a cast of kings slash decoding TV.
And then of course, my unofficial guide to Game of
Thrones book is still out there in the universe.
So if you want more more from me on this, on this subject, that's
where that's where you get my brain thoughts.
I believe that was was that the first episode you came on with
us was when we talked about your unofficial, I think.
So yeah, you guys were. Great, the first time we hadn't
had her on before. Maybe we had but I'm not sure.
It might have been the 2nd. Thing and so that's why I felt
like we've done my big into the panel, I'm thinking.
Of con con hangs. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's surprising. I'll never forget introducing
you to alt shift X. That was so fun.
I didn't know it wasn't like this.
Is alt shift X like hello boys. I waited till y'all were shaking
hands to say this is also known as alt shift X.
You were like, what? And he?
He totally back footed you too. He was like, oh I've read all
your articles and this and that. You were like you have.
Thank you, Sir. Yeah, I'm sorry.
Yeah. He's a great guy.
Great. Memory.
He's a. Great memory, kind of Thrones
one of those years. I don't remember which one.
Yeah. It's a blur.
But we'll pre. COVID.
Yeah, it was. It's a whole nother lifetime,
but really. But we have so much more to go.
We have more shows, more seasons, more books.
So we'll we'll be, we'll have you again.
What? What's up?
I did some research in our episode Database, which if
you're a patron you get access to.
The database is very useful, but I, I checked our there's A tag
for Kim Renfro. You're in there.
I can look at every episode you've been on and you were in
our House of the Dragons season one episode 10 preview.
So we had you on as a guest for House of the Dragons season one,
episode 10 in October 2022. And then we had you for the
first time was the unofficial Unofficial Guide to Game of
Thrones, your book. So that was the first time, but
this is your third appearance. Nice.
On our show. And there will be more to come,
I'm sure. Yeah, Hell yeah.
Thank you so much for having me. Yes, thanks for coming.
Thanks to Bran the Builder for our amazing intro.
We sure do love that video of blood and fire and cool stuff.
We love that it gives people time to come into our show as
it's beginning. You know, all the drums beat,
the fire burns, the Dragons fly, and y'all come in prepared to
hear us talk about House of the Dragon or whatever we're talking
about that day. We will be back, of course, on
Saturday with our preview episode for episode 7 as usual,
and we will continue the contents after the season as we
always do as well. Thanks again to Kim and on
behalf of Ashea and Sean, we'll see you next time.
Valar, reread us.