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Bring out your dead. 
Or should I say, bring out your 

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dead? 
Either way, The Dead Walking is 

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such a ubiquitous horror trope 
that George RR Martin uses it 

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right away in the prologue. 
But before we meet those Whites,

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we meet the White Walkers, those
who perform the magic to make 

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said dead walk again. 
This is effective because while 

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the Whites are terrifying, those
who make them are far more so. 

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These Walking Dead are part of 
the arsenal of the Others, the 

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ability to do that rather than 
just a force on their own. 

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But George RR Martin thinks 
outside the box, as usual, and 

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even as he makes full use of 
well tread ground, cemetery or 

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funerary ground in this case, he
adds to the concept by creating 

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variations within, the closest 
being perhaps Cold Hands, a 

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former Ranger of the Night's 
Watch seemingly doing the 

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bidding of Bloodraven. 
Or would it be more accurate to 

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say Cold Hands was Bloodraven's 
skin changing into the body of 

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the dead? 
I don't know exactly, but no 

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matter how we categorize Cold 
Hands, it's correct to classify 

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his case as necromancy. 
So this form of magic is not the

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sole purview of the others, nor 
of the Old Gods. 

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Though he didn't expect it to 
work because it never had 

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before. 
Thoros of Mir raised Barack 

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Dondarian from the dead with the
Kiss of Life, and then Barack 

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passed that same flame of life 
on to Catlin after dying. 

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What was it, 6 or 7 times? 
We'll probably see Melisandre 

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bring back John as well, and if 
not her, well, something's going

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to bring him back, most likely. 
And it probably won't be 

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science, though an element of 
science might be present in 

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Kyburn's raising of Sir Gregor 
Clegane, who made him into the 

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Kyborg, the mountain that died 
and came back again. 

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That's worth exploring, we 
think. 

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So are other stories from Kohor 
and Nephir, Ngai, Ashai 

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Volantis, and even the 
Hightower. 

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There are ancient tales of a 
necromancer king ruling House 

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Bain Fort in the far West, and 
of another even further W an 

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Ironborn reaver from House Drum.
It's one thing to take living 

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thralls. 
It's another to kill a foe and 

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raise them as your thrall. 
What is dead may never die, but 

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rises again harder and stronger 
is given new meaning. 

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As ancient as these tales are, 
there are even older ones of the

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Bloodstone Emperor, the Last God
Emperor of the Great Empire of 

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the Dawn, and some others. 
Back in Westeros. 

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George RR Martin isn't big on 
sorcerer's blasting enemies with

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lightning bolts or launching 
magic missiles, but he loves 

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this high conflict magic, the 
kind that makes people question,

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look askance or go full 
pitchfork and torches. 

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Messing with the line between 
life and death itself is perhaps

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the most extreme version of 
this. 

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It is that which is beyond most 
humans, the power that we are 

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most beholden to, life and 
death. 

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Well, I said most humans, all 
humans, what am I saying? 

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No one in the real world. 
I mean. 

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In the setting of Westeros and 
Essos however, it is not beyond 

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everyone. 
Some people have that power, but

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necromancy is so often forbidden
despite this in the real world 

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too. 
That's right, we're going to 

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touch on real world concepts and
origins for some of these things

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and the related concepts like 
the dead themselves, 

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immortality, undying things, the
search for that. 

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It's pretty expansive thing in 
this world with these colorful 

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beings like green seers, red 
priests, black goats, and of 

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course the White Walkers with 
their burning blue eyes. 

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Death comes in many hues and 
sometimes gets right back up 

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again to live some more 
unnaturally. 

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We've got all that and more on 
this episode of History of 

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Westeros podcast. 
Hello and welcome back 

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everybody. 
It's another Sunday. 

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We've got another live stream 
for you. 

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If you're here watching live, 
then it must be 3:00 Eastern 

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because that's when we're live. 
Almost every Sunday is when we 

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do these on YouTube, but you can
catch them later in edited form.

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They sound a little better, the 
quality is a little better, but 

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maybe you enjoy the live 
experience. 

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So take your pick. 
But if you want to catch it 

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later and it's anywhere you find
podcasts, you can catch it as 

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well on Spotify in video form. 
And if you listen on Patreon as 

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a member, well, you get it ad 
free. 

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Happy birthday to Nina Krusling,
our favorite and most frequent 

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contributor by far. 
If you want to show her some 

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love, go to her blog good 
queenalley.tumblr.com that's 

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with 1L and Ally and either wish
her a happy birthday and or ask 

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her a question. 
She likes getting questions over

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there. 
Or you could just say happy 

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birthday Nina here in the 
comments and we'll make sure she

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sees that. 
Definitely show her some love. 

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For all her many contributions 
over the years to our show, I 

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really couldn't possibly list 
them all. 

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I would probably need a full 
episode to list all her 

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contributions. 
That would take a while. 

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If you have questions for us, 
send them to 

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westeroshistory@gmail.com or you
can hit us up on any of our 

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socials. 
Blue Sky, Facebook, we got a 

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Facebook group, we're on 
Discord. 

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All that stuff is in the 
description, the links, 

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etcetera. 
And at the end of this episode, 

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I will mention episodes that 
relate to this one. 

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It's a big list because whenever
we delve into supernatural 

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things, especially supernatural 
things worldwide, while we touch

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on a lot of other topics. 
Also, at the end of this 

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episode, I will reveal the 
answer to this trivia question. 

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The prologue is the first time 
we see necromancy in action, of 

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course, but who was the first 
person we learn has been accused

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of necromancy? 
That's right. 

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Answer at the end, but also 
answer during. 

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Pay close attention and you'll 
hear it. 

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Unless of course, you already 
know the answer, which if you 

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do, congratulations, good job. 
It's a little bit obscure. 

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Actually, it's a lot obscure, 
maybe less so. 

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After this episode's over. 
Here's what we have for you 

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today. 
After the intro and the setup, 

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we'll talk a little bit about 
IRL necromancy. 

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That's right, necromancy is a 
real thing. 

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Sort of. 
Then we'll talk about the 

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various places where necromancy 
appears in the stories. 

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The others, the old gods. 
We'll talk about anti 

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necromancy, things that 
counteract it or combat it or 

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try to stop it. 
We'll talk about the difference 

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between resurrection and raising
the dead. 

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Then we'll move on to the raised
dead capabilities of Relore, 

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then the Drowned God, and with a
detour for the reaving 

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Necromancer. 
Then we'll talk about some 

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fictional influences, which will
include HP Lovecraft and Mary 

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Shelley and a few other things. 
Then we'll talk about Kybern, 

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the Science Necromancer, then 
other necromancers around the 

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world. 
We'll call that section 

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Necromancers of the World Unite,
even though they're solitary 

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figures who will never actually 
unite. 

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But hey, it's just a clever 
title. 

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At least I think it's clever. 
Hooded Man of the Bain Fort, the

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Hightower, the Free Cities, Ash 
Eye and the Great Empire, the 

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Dawn and a few others. 
And then we'll call it quits for

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the day with quite a bit 
accomplished, I think is a 

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longer episode docked than 
usual. 

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We'll see how long it actually 
takes. 

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Let's get to it, my friends. 
With our setup, humanity has 

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long been concerned with what 
happens after death, life after 

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death, spirits and souls, all 
those related concepts. 

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George is no stranger to that. 
It's a great thing to write 

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about. 
It's a perfect thing to included

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in a fantasy setting. 
Necromancy from a fantasy 

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perspective, is thus kind of a 
gross perversion of that idea, 

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which is what makes it great 
fodder for villains and stories 

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and conflict. 
What George has done is 

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something conceptually you're 
likely very familiar with by 

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now. 
He's taking a practice that is 

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pretty hard to see as anything 
but evil. 

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Like necromancy, you don't 
really have a lot of well, 

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sometimes it's good, some just 
bad. 

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Most of the time, if not all the
time, it's considered evil, 

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right? 
And that's generally how it's 

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viewed both in world, in the 
real world, other fantasy 

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stories, it's pretty hard to 
find stories where a necromancy 

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is thought of as good by a large
number of people. 

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Only a few individuals will ever
really say that if if anyone, 

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Right. 
Some people are like, yeah, I'm 

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a necromancer, I'm evil. 
Yeah, of course, of course I'm 

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evil, right. 
That's that's evil business. 

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But that's not how George likes 
to operate, is it? 

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That part doesn't fit with 
George in a certain way. 

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It does because most of the 
necromancy in in the story is 

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shunned or looked down on. 
But if you consider it with the 

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overall theme of power, what we 
get is a great form of conflict.

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The conflict that comes from the
decent or even good people who 

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are tempted to use an evil 
power. 

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We're not talking about evil 
people using evil powers. 

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Well, maybe we are. 
In the case of the others, I 

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don't even know if they're 
people, but you get the point. 

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We're talking about characters 
like Thoros who didn't mean to 

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commit necromancy and then shows
the reluctance to use it 

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afterwards. 
Where the others, like I said, 

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fairly straightforwardly evil. 
They may have a grudge or a 

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grievance, A motivation. 
That doesn't mean they're not 

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evil, right? 
And animating the dead, if it 

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isn't evil, it's because, well, 
dead flesh is just dead flesh. 

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It's the evil that they use 
those dead bodies. 

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If you animate the dead and have
them, you know, do chores for 

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old ladies, I'm not so sure 
that's evil, but they animate 

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dead and have them kill other 
people. 

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So it's it's the intent of the 
ACT. 

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It's pretty straightforward. 
And this also assumes that dead 

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bodies don't remain, don't have 
any sentience. 

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They don't feel what's 
happening, which that's not a 

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certainty at all. 
We don't know. 

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Moving on to someone like 
Kyborne and the Kyborg Sir 

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00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:32,680
Robert Strong, it's a pretty 
easy to designate him evil, but 

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the effect is enhanced because 
of it's KYBR like this is a guy 

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who is a sociopath. 
He tortures people he inflicts 

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pain and has no empathy. 
So of course he's evil right. 

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Even if even if he was doing all
these other good things and he 

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started raising the dead, I 
don't think that would make it a

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00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:53,160
good thing. 
It would just maybe be less 

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problematic because it's not 
being done by a guy that has so 

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much evil on his record already.
Melisandre, good example, 

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00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:03,040
perfect example of somebody 
who's very Gray. 

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00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:07,760
She's absolutely dedicated her 
life to saving humanity. 

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00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:10,360
That's a good thing. 
She gets some things wrong along

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the way. 
Now, if she brings John back 

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from the dead, it's probably not
evil given the context. 

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00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:20,080
But if she was just like living 
in some village, bringing people

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00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:23,000
from back from the dead on the 
regular, that might be a 

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00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:25,440
problem, right? 
But she is bringing John back, 

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00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:27,600
presumably because she thinks 
it's important to save the 

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00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:30,600
world, right? 
It's a very unique situation. 

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00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:33,360
So again, again, I come back to 
Thoros, maybe the most 

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interesting example, because he 
didn't do it on purpose. 

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00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:38,320
There was no intent. 
It just worked. 

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00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:42,040
He's like, whoa, I resurrect. 
Well, the first time, the first 

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00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:43,680
time that's true. 
When he brought Barrack back 

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those other times, well, he knew
what he was doing. 

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So throughout this episode, 
we'll go deeper into the 

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ramifications of this power 
because I think that's a big 

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part of what George's intent 
here with putting it in the 

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world in the 1st place. 
It's a dark magic, but there are

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times where it can be used for 
good and that's wonderful for 

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00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:02,680
conflict and for the the people 
doing it. 

216
00:12:02,680 --> 00:12:06,080
They have to weigh on what 
they've done and whether this is

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00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:09,400
a good thing or whether, yeah, 
it's really quite a a rabbit 

218
00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:11,560
hole. 
So that's our focus on today. 

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00:12:11,560 --> 00:12:18,160
Not, not those who make the dead
walk if not alive again, just 

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00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:21,600
they make them animated again, 
whether it's alive or let's part

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of one of the things we have to 
get into whether they're living 

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00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:25,080
or not. 
And then that's not a simple 

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00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:26,200
thing. 
You know, if you've been dead 

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for 20 years and your body rises
again, there's probably nothing 

225
00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:31,840
going on in that brain, you 
know? 

226
00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:35,200
But if you in the case of 
someone raised immediately after

227
00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:37,160
death, well, that's a 
difference. 

228
00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:39,320
And, and I don't know where the 
line is. 

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00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:40,800
So that's something what we'll 
be talking about. 

230
00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:44,760
So yes, we're focusing on the 
the necromancers themselves, 

231
00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:46,760
less on the actual dead. 
But of course there's going to 

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00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:49,880
be overlap with that. 
A cork of the undead trope in 

233
00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:54,800
fiction is that it is not 
fantasy only, it's big in 

234
00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:56,360
sci-fi. 
Now some people say sci-fi 

235
00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:59,000
fantasy is kind of the same 
thing anyway, I don't, but I 

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00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:00,720
understand that a lot of people 
do and I don't argue. 

237
00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:03,320
I wouldn't argue with them. 
But necromancy, You never see 

238
00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:06,680
that term used in sci-fi really.
Maybe not never, but it's they 

239
00:13:06,680 --> 00:13:08,040
would use some sort of other 
word. 

240
00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:11,480
George has somewhat blended 
these tropes by not only 

241
00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:17,480
including some science with it, 
but by mixing it with elements 

242
00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:20,960
that might fit better in a 
sci-fi setting, using it less 

243
00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:24,960
straightforwardly. 
One of the reasons we see The 

244
00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:29,080
Walking Dead, the raised dead, 
the whatever in fiction is as 

245
00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:30,720
well. 
Like in fantasy, it works really

246
00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:32,320
well. 
There's a lot of interest in 

247
00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:36,000
media that features The Walking 
Dead, such as the highly popular

248
00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:40,480
franchise The Walking Dead, or 
in the case of a movie like 28 

249
00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:44,800
Days Later, the Running Dead. 
Now to be fair, in the latter, 

250
00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:48,600
they aren't technically dead. 
It's like a virus that turns 

251
00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:52,600
them into what they are, which 
was kind of like fast zombies. 

252
00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:54,840
Or in the case of The Last of 
Us, it's a fungus. 

253
00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:57,480
So virus, fungus, scientific 
explanation. 

254
00:13:57,760 --> 00:13:59,840
But really it's still just 
made-up. 

255
00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:01,960
It's still fictional, still 
fantastical. 

256
00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:05,360
The stone man with grayscale are
probably closer to those 

257
00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:07,200
examples. 
Because it is like a disease. 

258
00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:11,080
It's an infection that slowly 
changes you rather than killing 

259
00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:12,680
you. 
In a lot of sci-fi version of 

260
00:14:12,680 --> 00:14:15,920
the stroke, the infected are not
actually dead, or are, though 

261
00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:18,880
maybe that's semantics, but 
semantics is at the heart of 

262
00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:20,760
categorization. 
If we're trying to categorize 

263
00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:23,520
these things, we have to really 
nail these terms down 

264
00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:25,520
regardless. 
In The Song of Ice and Fire, 

265
00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:28,280
it's magic grayscale. 
Even though it's an infection, 

266
00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:31,240
it's a magical disease, which is
the point here. 

267
00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:34,000
Even though grayscale isn't on 
the docket for today, I wanted 

268
00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:36,640
to bring it up because even 
though it's all magic, it's 

269
00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:39,320
different forms of magic. 
And that's what we're going to 

270
00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:42,240
try to cover, the different 
forms of necromancy that come 

271
00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:45,400
from different places throughout
the story, plus the bit of 

272
00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:50,880
science, sort of maybe. 
So let's talk about IRL 

273
00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:56,120
necromancy, just in case you 
weren't aware of what IRL means.

274
00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:59,280
It means in real life. 
Which is funny because real life

275
00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:00,600
dead Necr. 
Yeah. 

276
00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:03,520
Anyway, you get it. 
But the dictionary says 

277
00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:06,600
conjuration of the spirits of 
the dead for purposes of 

278
00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,600
magically revealing the future 
or influencing the course of 

279
00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:11,640
events. 
That's the real life definition 

280
00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:13,720
of necromancy. 
That is not the real life 

281
00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:15,880
definition of necromancy. 
In fantasy stories, you'll 

282
00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:19,200
notice that none of that 
definition included raising the 

283
00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:21,160
dead. 
It's conjuration, the spirits of

284
00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:24,720
the dead, for purposes of asking
them questions, getting 

285
00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:26,920
information from them. 
Yeah, it's like raising the dead

286
00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:28,720
spirits. 
Yeah, yes, exactly. 

287
00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:30,800
And then they're not like 
walking around afterwards. 

288
00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:32,680
They're just there for the 
length of these questions, and 

289
00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:34,600
then they go back to the spirit 
world, presumably. 

290
00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:38,000
That's generally how it works. 
So in this case, what does 

291
00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:39,640
conjuration mean? 
You got to define the other 

292
00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:41,560
terms. 
It means to summon as if by 

293
00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:44,560
invocation or invocate 
incantation magic. 

294
00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:46,280
You know, that's as far as we 
need to go with that. 

295
00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:50,040
It's magic. 
And this comes from the Greek 

296
00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:54,160
Necros equals dead body and 
mantea equals divination. 

297
00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:58,120
Dead body divination, right? 
That's the, it's spelled out 

298
00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:01,320
right there. 
So in real life, it has nothing 

299
00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:03,680
to do with raising the dead so 
much as it is communing with the

300
00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:06,160
dead, or maybe briefly raising 
them only to talk to them. 

301
00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:08,400
But no, no sort of permanence to
that. 

302
00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:12,240
Many ancient cultures believed 
the dead had access to 

303
00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:15,160
information beyond what could be
known in the material world. 

304
00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:18,680
And when I say ancient cultures,
and I say many, I really mean 

305
00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:21,040
many. 
There's records of it in ancient

306
00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:27,040
Egypt, Babylonia, Rome, Greece, 
Etruria, China, Persia. 

307
00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:30,280
I mean, whoa, like those are. 
I named all the big ones. 

308
00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:32,040
Most of most of all the big ones
anyway. 

309
00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:35,920
Some of the biggest ones. 
I didn't mention India, but I 

310
00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:37,520
think they had it there too. 
I'm not sure. 

311
00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:40,920
Anyway, the oldest known 
literary example is in the 

312
00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:43,120
Odyssey. 
Odysseus travels to the 

313
00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:45,560
underworld to get knowledge 
about his trip home from Troy. 

314
00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:48,720
He does his via spells taught to
him by Cersei, not Cersei 

315
00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:52,280
Lannister, of course, Circe 
Cersei. 

316
00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:57,480
But yeah, necromancy is actually
forbidden in the Bible. 

317
00:16:57,480 --> 00:16:59,840
Like they actually forbid it in 
the Bible. 

318
00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:02,440
They go so far as to include it 
and say you can't do this. 

319
00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:06,599
It's it's it's wild Jews of the 
later Hellenistic period called 

320
00:17:07,079 --> 00:17:09,560
people that did this bone 
conjurers. 

321
00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:11,480
There's that conjurer again, 
right? 

322
00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:14,160
Here's a quote. 
This is kind of unusual. 

323
00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:16,599
The first quote Ishaya is going 
to read us from today isn't from

324
00:17:16,599 --> 00:17:19,000
A Song of Ice and Fire. 
No, it's from the Bible. 

325
00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:21,160
Deuteronomy. 
King James Version. 

326
00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:24,440
Here we go. 
When thou art come into the land

327
00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:29,240
which the Lord thy God giveth 
thee, thou shalt not learn to do

328
00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:32,040
according to the abominations of
those nations. 

329
00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:36,680
There shall not be found among 
you anyone who maketh his son or

330
00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:41,240
his daughter to pass through the
fire, or who useth divination, 

331
00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:46,520
or an observer of times, or an 
enchanter, or a witch, or a 

332
00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:51,800
charmer, or a consulter with 
familiar spirits, or a wizard, 

333
00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:56,240
or a necromancer. 
For all who do these things are 

334
00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:59,760
an abomination unto the Lord. 
And because of these 

335
00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:04,120
abominations, the Lord thy God 
doth drive them out from before 

336
00:18:04,120 --> 00:18:07,120
thee. 
That almost reads like the list 

337
00:18:07,120 --> 00:18:11,520
of magics practiced in Ash Eye. 
It's like, don't do that. 

338
00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:14,320
This, this, this, this, this. 
Of course, an ASCII, it's the 

339
00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:15,920
opposite where you can do any of
those things. 

340
00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:18,120
There's no rule. 
This is the direct opposite 

341
00:18:18,120 --> 00:18:19,480
where yeah, no, you can't do any
of those things. 

342
00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:23,200
So apparently Israel is the 
opposite of ASCII in, in terms 

343
00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:26,280
of that, at least ancient Israel
was, because this is a warning 

344
00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:30,600
to the Israelites not to engage 
in such practices as the 

345
00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:33,160
Canaanites do in this example, 
it's the Canaanites that are 

346
00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:36,640
using as an example. 
So according to Leviticus, 

347
00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:40,560
Mosaic law prescribed the death 
penalty for this practice for 

348
00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:42,400
necromancy. 
And, and how nice of the Bible 

349
00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:44,840
to put necromancer last, you 
know, as like as if we're 

350
00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:46,680
building up to it. 
It's like, all right, perfectly 

351
00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:48,640
placed there. 
It's telling our story the way 

352
00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:52,240
we want. 
Yet us King Saul from the Bible 

353
00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:55,800
invoked the spirit of Samuel. 
Samuel was a judge and prophet 

354
00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:58,680
and he did so via the witch of 
Endor. 

355
00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:05,240
That's right, the witch of Endor
spelled ENDOR is from the Bible 

356
00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:08,040
and not from Star Wars. 
Star Wars has an Endor and it 

357
00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:10,760
has witches. 
But the Bible got there, you 

358
00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:14,600
know, 2000 years earlier, if if 
not more, this King Saul thought

359
00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:16,600
he could get away with it 
because he's a king and he 

360
00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:20,920
thought, hey, I'm a if I'm not 
above the law, I, I am the law, 

361
00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:24,120
you know, I'm the king. 
But when he asked the witch of 

362
00:19:24,120 --> 00:19:28,520
Endor for this prophecy through 
Samuel, Samuel prophesied doom 

363
00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:33,880
for Saul, and possibly because 
he was engaged in necromancy and

364
00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:36,120
using divination against God's 
commandments. 

365
00:19:36,120 --> 00:19:38,840
So that's how a lot of biblical 
scholars interpret this, that 

366
00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:42,160
Saul died because he used this 
forbidden magic. 

367
00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:44,680
Technically the witch of Endor 
used it. 

368
00:19:45,120 --> 00:19:47,200
He just, you know, asked for the
results. 

369
00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:51,560
But that is kind of the point. 
It's the intent. 

370
00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:55,480
She was sort of forced to do it 
because he was the king and it 

371
00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:57,520
it was his command that made it 
happen. 

372
00:19:57,560 --> 00:20:00,160
By the way, the Witch of Endor 
is also a ship. 

373
00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:04,440
In the Expanse novel, Babylon's 
Ashes, I haven't recommended the

374
00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:06,880
Expanse in in a long time, so 
I'll do it again here because 

375
00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:07,880
yeah, you get the Witch of 
Endor. 

376
00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:11,600
Now this passage from the Bible 
is extremely interesting and 

377
00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:13,240
highly debated by Christian 
scholars. 

378
00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:16,200
I'm referring to the quote 
Ashaya read because some people 

379
00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:18,440
see it as proof of magic. 
And you might be like, wait, 

380
00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:19,600
why? 
Why would that be proof of 

381
00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:21,520
magic? 
Think of it this way. 

382
00:20:22,120 --> 00:20:24,240
If you believe the Bible is 
truly the word of God, if you 

383
00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:28,400
are a sincere worshipper of 
Christianity or believer in 

384
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:30,840
Christianity or Judaism or any 
of these Abrahamic religions 

385
00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:34,200
that have the same belief, why 
would God ban necromancy? 

386
00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:36,760
If it's not real? 
Why would you ban something that

387
00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:39,120
isn't? 
That is fake, It's made-up. 

388
00:20:39,120 --> 00:20:42,120
We don't need to ban things that
don't exist, right? 

389
00:20:42,120 --> 00:20:43,480
Who bans things that aren't 
real? 

390
00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:48,720
So let's you could actually 
argue that the Bible claims 

391
00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:51,480
magic is real. 
I would say you can ban things 

392
00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:53,880
that aren't real would be my 
argument to that. 

393
00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:57,040
That even if things are fake 
that the belief in them can can 

394
00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:00,520
lead to bad things and that's 
why you would ban belief in 

395
00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:02,360
false prophets and stuff like 
that. 

396
00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:04,920
I don't know anyways. 
It isn't really written that way

397
00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:06,000
though. 
It isn't written as if they're 

398
00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:07,840
fake though, right? 
It says you shouldn't come here 

399
00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:08,800
if you know how to do those 
things. 

400
00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:11,160
But I I see your point though. 
I do see your point and and that

401
00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:13,360
is the argument by people who 
don't agree with that. 

402
00:21:13,360 --> 00:21:15,360
Yeah, who want to believe in the
Bible but not believe? 

403
00:21:15,360 --> 00:21:17,880
In in this kind of magic, Yeah. 
Basically, because the way it's 

404
00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:20,400
written, it says that these 
magics are real, they just are 

405
00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:22,080
abominations. 
If they're done by anybody but 

406
00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:23,440
God, that's the way it's 
written. 

407
00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:25,960
It's like they are real, but 
only God should be allowed to do

408
00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:27,080
them. 
And so we should get rid of 

409
00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:31,600
anyone who else who can. 
So like even Martin Luther of 

410
00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:35,600
Lutheranism fame and John Calvin
of Calvinism fame, they both 

411
00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:38,160
thought magic was real too. 
They both weighed in on this and

412
00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:42,320
were like, yeah, that wasn't 
really Saul, that was, or 

413
00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:44,120
Samuel, that was a wit, that was
a demon. 

414
00:21:44,120 --> 00:21:48,440
I was like, well, that doesn't, 
that still leaves magic wide 

415
00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:50,880
open, doesn't it? 
It was like the other one. 

416
00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:52,600
Yeah. 
It was like impersonating God to

417
00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:54,720
to throw him off because it's an
evil magic. 

418
00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:56,840
Yeah. 
So that also if you want to look

419
00:21:56,840 --> 00:21:59,320
at another way, say, well, if 
you are a Christian who wants to

420
00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:01,680
believe in other forms of magic,
well, there you go. 

421
00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:03,200
There's some basis for you right
there. 

422
00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:05,440
Now, what's interesting about 
this too, is that, yes, George 

423
00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,200
uses the fantasy version of 
necromancy, not this divination 

424
00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:09,960
form. 
But of course he uses divination

425
00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:11,760
also. 
He just doesn't call it 

426
00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:13,760
necromancy and doesn't seem to 
have anything to do with 

427
00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:14,960
necromancy, which is 
interesting. 

428
00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:17,720
There doesn't seem to be like 
consider this green dreams, 

429
00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:21,680
dragon dreams, flame reading 
various and sundry prophecies 

430
00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:24,280
all over the place. 
They often come at great cost 

431
00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:26,600
right? 
Like the prophets are often 

432
00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:29,600
tortured individuals or they 
suffer greatly for their 

433
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:31,280
knowledge. 
But it doesn't really have much 

434
00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:32,640
to do with the dead though, does
it? 

435
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:34,600
I mean, maybe the weirwood 
network you can argue is 

436
00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:37,280
connected to the dead spirits. 
That's the one I would say is 

437
00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:41,600
the most clearly, yeah, clearly 
connected to the spirits of the 

438
00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:42,840
dead. 
I think there's definitely 

439
00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:46,920
something there, but and maybe 
the thing with Varus where that 

440
00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:49,640
where his genitals were 
sacrificed to summon some being,

441
00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:52,080
that's more maybe along the 
lines of summoning a spirit to 

442
00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:54,640
ask it a question, although that
may not have been a human 

443
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:56,600
spirit. 
Still, that's the kind of 

444
00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,800
divination that you see referred
to in the Bible where you you 

445
00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:01,720
summon a spirit, ask it 
questions, and then it goes 

446
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,680
away. 
That Varus's description is of 

447
00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:07,920
that, but it's the only real 
example like that in all of the 

448
00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:10,640
books, which could mean Varus 
made the whole thing up. 

449
00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:12,520
I've always considered that a 
possibility. 

450
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:16,640
Varus has made all that up so as
well, if you're going forward 

451
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:19,280
farther with some of these real 
life examples, or at least real 

452
00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:22,560
life books, right, like the 
Bible and some of these other 

453
00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:24,080
ones. 
There's people raised from the 

454
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:27,760
dead in the Quran, the Bible, 
the Hebrew Bible, all these 

455
00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:29,360
books. 
There's just, it just isn't 

456
00:23:29,360 --> 00:23:31,400
called necromancy. 
It's just called, you know, 

457
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:34,440
raising the dead or sometimes 
it's called resurrection. 

458
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:35,960
We'll get into that a little 
later with the difference 

459
00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:38,080
between the two is, for example,
in the Hebrew Bible, there's 

460
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:40,440
three examples of of a person 
raised from the dead. 

461
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:42,280
They're almost mundane the way 
they happen. 

462
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:44,280
It's like this thing happened 
and that person got up and 

463
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:45,600
started walking again and like, 
whoa. 

464
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:48,920
We'll get back to the conceptual
differences, but let's let's get

465
00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:51,440
it back to A Song of Ice and 
Fire for a moment here. 

466
00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:53,720
So there's some differences 
certainly to be made. 

467
00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:58,160
Let's look at those differences 
in world rather than in the real

468
00:23:58,160 --> 00:23:59,960
world. 
So let's hear from Melisandre 

469
00:23:59,960 --> 00:24:02,840
and Sam while they're talking to
Stennis. 

470
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:08,120
Sam cleared his throat. 
Sire, the dagger the the 

471
00:24:08,120 --> 00:24:11,080
dragonglass only shattered when 
I tried to stab a white. 

472
00:24:11,360 --> 00:24:15,440
Melisandre smiled. 
Necromancy animates these 

473
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:18,480
whites, yet they are still only 
dead. 

474
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:22,160
Flesh, steel and fire will serve
for them. 

475
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:25,920
The ones you call the others are
something more. 

476
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:28,200
Yeah, she's not wrong about 
that. 

477
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:30,720
Something more. 
There are necromancers and more.

478
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,080
They have other powers like that
as well. 

479
00:24:33,120 --> 00:24:36,120
Beyond that, rather now she uses
the term very straightforwardly,

480
00:24:36,120 --> 00:24:37,480
in a straightforward place. 
She. 

481
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,200
Yeah. 
Simply put, the others are using

482
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:41,960
necromancy to animate these 
whites. 

483
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:45,360
As we intimated at the 
beginning, we got to wonder 

484
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,480
whether the whites have any 
thoughts or memories or whether 

485
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,080
there's data in their brains 
that can be accessed. 

486
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:56,360
Like in the case of O Thor and 
Jafer Flowers, the two that were

487
00:24:56,360 --> 00:24:58,640
found dead with blue eyes 
brought through the wall and 

488
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:01,680
then rose in the night to attack
the 1st Ranger and the Lord 

489
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:05,080
Commander. 
I think they had the others 

490
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,920
didn't know that they got that 
from those Rangers heads 

491
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:09,920
somehow. 
Like they extracted that 

492
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,680
information maybe because of 
through the mass. 

493
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:15,320
Same magic that allows them to 
animate them or the same magic 

494
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:17,800
that allows them to dominate 
them, whatever turned their eyes

495
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:19,920
blue and all that. 
Because it doesn't imply 

496
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:21,720
consciousness. 
It could just be, like I said, 

497
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,520
like data. 
They've accessed stuff in their 

498
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,000
brains. 
But that's getting really deep 

499
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:29,160
into the weeds of, of the 
mechanics of this, which we'll 

500
00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:32,240
never really understand. 
I do think the story is more 

501
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,440
interesting if the undead can 
remember or feel, and we know 

502
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,600
they can in the case of like a 
Barrack Barrack on Derry. 

503
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,840
The question is how far back, 
right? 

504
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:43,160
Like Barrack starts to lose his 
memories, He starts to lose his 

505
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:46,040
sense of self. 
When does that like hit a 

506
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:48,560
tipping point? 
You know, when does it become 

507
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:49,640
OK? 
You're definitely not Barrick 

508
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:51,040
anymore. 
You're just a walking guy that 

509
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:53,440
looked like Barrick. 
So that's the topic for crystal 

510
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:55,320
delve into another day, because 
that's getting more into the 

511
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:58,160
nature of the undead rather than
the nature of the woes who make 

512
00:25:58,160 --> 00:25:59,640
the undead, which is what we're 
focused on. 

513
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:02,960
Still. 
It serves sort of like in the 

514
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:05,640
real version of necromancy, 
meaning the the divination, 

515
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:07,680
right? 
Like the the others are raising 

516
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:09,920
the dead and extracting 
information from them. 

517
00:26:10,120 --> 00:26:12,000
Even though they're not spirits 
and they're not going away 

518
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:15,400
afterwards, it's still they're 
getting information from dead 

519
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,400
bodies, which is real life 
necromancy. 

520
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:22,680
Since there are so many forms or
sources, perhaps would be a 

521
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,560
better term of necromantic magic
in George's world. 

522
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:29,400
Let's go through them one by 
one, starting with the most 

523
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:31,160
famous of them, the one we see 
first. 

524
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:38,600
The Others, though, the term 
necromancy doesn't appear for 

525
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,520
the first time until late in The
Clash of Kings, Aria 10 to be 

526
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:43,920
precise. 
We obviously see it happen in 

527
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:45,200
concept. 
In the prologue. 

528
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,600
We see necromancy in action 
before we even meet a single 

529
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:50,560
main character. 
Like, think about it that way. 

530
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:54,120
Like we see the dead raised 
before we meet any Starks or or 

531
00:26:54,120 --> 00:26:56,960
any Targaryens or Greyjoys or 
Baratheons or anybody. 

532
00:26:57,280 --> 00:26:59,440
We hardly even hear their names.
We do hear Robert's name in the 

533
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,040
prologue, but that's about it. 
The prologue character Will is 

534
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:05,760
slain by a product of 
necromancy, his own companion, 

535
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:08,880
Sir Waymar, who was in turn 
slain by those who worked that 

536
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,080
necromantic necromantic spell in
the 1st place. 

537
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:13,080
The Others. 
So the death toll continues 

538
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,720
indirectly, though, because the 
solitary survivor of that 

539
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:19,240
encounter, Garrard, is executed 
for desertion. 

540
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:23,080
Driven mad by what he saw. 
And was he driven mad by the 

541
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:26,800
Others themselves, or seeing the
dead walk, seeing them kill his 

542
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,200
companions, or some combination 
of all the above? 

543
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:33,920
Probably one thing that the 
Others do that we don't see 

544
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:37,880
elsewhere, that maybe is a 
distinction in the type of 

545
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:41,320
necromancy that they use is they
can raise things that aren't 

546
00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:43,840
human. 
And we've seen the make the 

547
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:48,560
flesh of animals walk. 
We've seen bears and Ravens and 

548
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:53,680
other animals as part of their 
Walking Dead armies. 

549
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:56,760
So their use of necromancy is 
somewhat indiscriminate. 

550
00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:59,880
It seems like if it was ever 
alive, it can be raised and 

551
00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:03,960
added to an undead army if it's 
legs aren't flopping around. 

552
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:07,520
If it's you know, half burnt, 
then there's not much point in 

553
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:09,360
raising that being it can't keep
up. 

554
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:13,800
But that gets into how they are 
able to do this in the 1st 

555
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:14,920
place, which we're going to talk
about. 

556
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:16,480
Here's a really interesting 
part. 

557
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,920
There's a deleted passage from 
Storm of Swords where Mance 

558
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:23,720
leads his men to the first of 
the first man. 

559
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:28,600
This is after John has joined up
so John first sees all the 

560
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,640
bodies everywhere and is like 
who did this? 

561
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:34,120
He can't believe it because it 
doesn't look human. 

562
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:37,600
The way the bodies are strewn 
about, the damage done the the 

563
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:41,600
ripped corpses, the the zombies 
and whites attacking humans with

564
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:43,880
their hands and shredding them 
that way and pulling them apart 

565
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:45,520
rather than using weapon. 
It doesn't look like a normal 

566
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:50,480
battlefield. 
Mance's reply is no men of women

567
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:55,560
born, which touches on the old 
maybe dropped concept by George 

568
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:57,560
of referring to the others or 
something else. 

569
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:00,600
If it's not the others as the 
Neverborn, which is something 

570
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,960
that was included in some of the
early literature surrounding the

571
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:07,320
series, the Neverborn are makes 
sense. 

572
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:12,800
They were created by magic or 
ritual or something, not through

573
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:16,840
the womb of a woman like how 
humans normally come into this 

574
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:21,200
world. 
But if you're thinking about 

575
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,960
what I've just described, you 
might be wondering, wait, why 

576
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,440
were there a bunch of bodies at 
the first of the first men? 

577
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:30,080
Why didn't the others raise 
those bodies? 

578
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:31,880
Why didn't they add them to 
their army? 

579
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:35,200
There's a very good answer. 
And there's another line from 

580
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:38,000
that deleted scene quote. 
If the others did not linger 

581
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:41,440
here to raise these dead, it can
only mean they're hunting down 

582
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,560
the living, correct? 
That is absolutely right. 

583
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,600
Man says that he's right because
while this is happening, 

584
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:48,720
remember this is a deleted 
scene. 

585
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:52,160
It's happening parallel to Sam 
and the rest of the Rangers 

586
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:54,960
fleeing, and the others 
absolutely chased them. 

587
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,440
That's when Sam killed one of 
them during that flight. 

588
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,600
What this tells us is it's not 
instantaneous. 

589
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:05,400
It isn't just like the TV show 
where Night King just raises his

590
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:09,320
arms in the air and every dead 
being within a certain range 

591
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:12,800
stands back up again. 
It seems to take more time and 

592
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:15,600
effort than that. 
He says that they would have had

593
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:17,720
to take time to do it if it 
could. 

594
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:21,120
If they could pursue the living 
and take a moment to raise the 

595
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:24,640
dead, they would do both. 
But clearly they didn't have 

596
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:27,560
that moment, which maybe implies
it's a lot more than a moment. 

597
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:30,880
It might take hours for them to 
raise all those dead. 

598
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:32,520
It might be one at a time. 
It might be another. 

599
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:36,360
Walks up to a being, says some 
words in scruff, moves their 

600
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:39,840
hands a little. 
That being, raises up next one, 

601
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,920
next one, next one. 
Even if you got like 8 or 10 

602
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:46,720
others in the squad, it'd take 
you a while to raise 300 bodies 

603
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:51,360
or whatever, and that might 
include raising whites that were

604
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:53,800
killed so you can raise them a 
second time. 

605
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:56,760
My guess is that, you know, if 
they're struck by dragonglass, 

606
00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:00,840
something can cause the spell to
break and then they will need to

607
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:03,200
be reanimated. 
You know, in some cases they 

608
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:04,200
won't. 
There's no point because the 

609
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:06,800
body's burned or its legs have 
been Hacked Off. 

610
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,960
No point in raising that. 
That's a pretty good way to look

611
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:13,640
at, I think. 
We can't assume that the others 

612
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:15,840
have the ability to do this 
quickly. 

613
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:18,640
And that really makes sense, 
right? 

614
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,600
Because George has long 
maintained that magic should 

615
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:23,560
have a cost. 
It shouldn't be easy. 

616
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:27,520
I've never put a whole lot of 
thought into making sure that 

617
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:29,440
line of thinking applies to the 
villains as well. 

618
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:32,320
But it it, it really should. 
And it does here, apparently. 

619
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,520
If they can only raise the dead 
every, you know, one every few 

620
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:38,000
minutes or maybe even longer, 
then, yeah, there's a limitation

621
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:40,280
to it. 
And, well, time is sort of on 

622
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,880
their side. 
They're not like going to become

623
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:47,160
old and die tomorrow. 
But still, it's a strategic 

624
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:49,440
consideration. 
It's a logistical consideration.

625
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:53,000
You need something that that 
matters in terms of the the back

626
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:55,240
and forth of war and battle 
between these and human beings. 

627
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:57,880
So you wonder too, right? 
Like, are they, what else are 

628
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:01,080
they learning from the dead? 
And what other forms of magic do

629
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:04,240
they have? 
For example, Melisandre can read

630
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:06,120
the flames, there's green 
dreams, all the other things. 

631
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:08,560
Can the others do that? 
It's it's magic that's 

632
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:13,640
associated with divination in 
the real world and with this 

633
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:17,960
other associated magics like the
others seem to be a product of 

634
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,120
the old gods or a corrupted form
of the old gods. 

635
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:22,520
So maybe they have a lot of 
those other powers too. 

636
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:27,080
Something that we may have 
gotten the wrong impression of 

637
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:31,720
from TV again is the idea that 
if you kill another that all the

638
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:35,400
zombies or whites that it raised
that they die too. 

639
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:37,080
We have no proof of that in the 
books. 

640
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:41,680
When Sam stabbed that other no 
whites dropped. 

641
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:43,640
There weren't any around to 
drop. 

642
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,440
But we still there was no no 
proof of this. 

643
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:49,520
It's very likely that it came 
from George that he told the TV 

644
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:52,600
show guys this, but until we see
it in the books, we don't assume

645
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:56,720
it's the case. 
So quite possibly it applies to 

646
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:58,560
other necromancer types too. 
It should. 

647
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:01,440
It might not just be the others.
If it does work this way in 

648
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:04,240
George's world, then maybe it 
works this way for I don't know.

649
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:06,760
If Thoros dies, will Lady 
Stoneheart die too? 

650
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:11,640
Probably not, because Barrick 
was able to pass that magic on 

651
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:13,640
without Thoros intercession at 
all. 

652
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:15,720
It's probably kind of an 
independent, unique thing now. 

653
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:18,440
On its own it's not requiring 
him to do anything to maintain 

654
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:20,840
it, whereas it seems like the 
others need to maintain their 

655
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:25,600
magic to keep the dead walking. 
So there is again, this goes to 

656
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:28,800
show that not all forms of 
necromancy are the same, but 

657
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:31,040
it's it's something to consider 
that maybe other necromancers 

658
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:34,360
out there, if they die, they're 
dead, drop with them. 

659
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:37,080
It's possible. 
Let's move on to a related form 

660
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:40,280
of magic. 
Sticking with the Old gods that 

661
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:43,880
wielded by the Children in green
seers like Bloodraven and Bran 

662
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:48,000
separately from the Others makes
sense, because while there's 

663
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:51,480
overlap, they do seem like 
there's some different powers as

664
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:53,840
well. 
There might be a lot of overlap,

665
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:55,920
though. 
There might be way more overlap 

666
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:58,480
than what we've seen so far. 
And that doesn't even include 

667
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:03,360
the possibility that the Others 
were created by this very magic.

668
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:05,920
The idea that the Children 
created the Others as a weapon 

669
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:09,080
to fight back against humanity 
has been around for a very long 

670
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:11,719
time, since well before the TV 
show, since well before this 

671
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,880
podcast existed. 
Yeah, people have come. 

672
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:17,199
People have theorized that way 
back when, and I've been a big 

673
00:34:17,199 --> 00:34:19,120
proponent of it since the first 
time I ever heard it. 

674
00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:22,080
And I also love the idea that 
the Others are using a form of 

675
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:26,840
skin changing to raise the debt,
their skin changing into dead 

676
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:30,440
flesh rather than living flesh. 
Kind of a cool corrupting way to

677
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:33,400
think about it. 
It is that form of magic, the 

678
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:36,480
creation of the Others that to 
me, could fit into the same 

679
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:40,239
category of high magic that was 
done way back in ancient times 

680
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:43,800
to stop human migrations or to 
to fight back against humans. 

681
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:47,440
The First Men specifically, such
as the breaking of the arm and 

682
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:50,199
the flooding of the neck. 
The creation of the Others could

683
00:34:50,199 --> 00:34:53,639
fit right in line with those 
things, giving them great grand 

684
00:34:53,639 --> 00:34:56,480
powers. 
But these powers probably 

685
00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:58,560
already existed before the 
Others, right? 

686
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:02,120
Actually, they definitely did. 
We know for a fact that they 

687
00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:05,480
definitely did because 
necromantic magic has existed in

688
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:08,160
Planeto since before the Others 
existed. 

689
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:12,920
So that fits with the idea that 
they are created species that 

690
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:16,800
was given existing magic by 
people who already knew how to 

691
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,280
use that magic. 
Again, we come back to Cold 

692
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:21,720
Hands. 
That's necromancy, right? 

693
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:25,200
And it's Old Gods. 
It's coming from Blood Raven in 

694
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:27,120
the green sears. 
It's not coming from the others.

695
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:32,240
Maybe Cold Hands was raised by 
the others and the blood Raven 

696
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:35,680
took him back. 
I don't think so, though I'm 

697
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:39,840
guessing he did the raising of 
this one, which is shows that 

698
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:42,240
they do have that power, but 
perhaps they just don't like to 

699
00:35:42,240 --> 00:35:45,960
use it because it's, well, it's 
evil, it's dark. 

700
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:48,560
It's it's goes against the 
nature of life and death. 

701
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:53,960
And this is they're a natural 
magic kind of orientated people.

702
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:55,160
Why would they want to mess with
that? 

703
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:58,640
You don't mess with the cycles 
of life and death when you are 

704
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:01,360
pro nature, especially not with 
sorcery. 

705
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:03,400
And yeah, it's not a thing you 
do you. 

706
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:05,840
It's not really the vibe of the 
old gods you because when you 

707
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:10,840
die, you become part of the 
collective of the spirit world 

708
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:12,480
or whatever. 
It's it's, it's supposed to be 

709
00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:15,400
kind of inviting, but Cold Hands
talks. 

710
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:17,680
What's the difference? 
We haven't seen the whites talk.

711
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,040
Can they? 
We don't know that they can't. 

712
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:22,760
We just haven't seen it happen. 
John is very curious about that.

713
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:24,440
John wants to know, can they 
talk? 

714
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:26,240
Can they think? 
Can they feel? 

715
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:29,400
He saved some corpses maybe for 
experimenting on later, but we 

716
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:32,680
haven't seen that happen yet. 
Maybe it's just as simple as the

717
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:36,280
others could speak through their
whites, but because they speak 

718
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:38,560
scruff, we wouldn't understand 
them. 

719
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:42,960
What's the point? 
And be like, oh, well, that's 

720
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:44,960
that's what a human sounds like 
when they're dead and have no 

721
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:46,320
tongue. 
No, no, that's that's trying to 

722
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:49,360
speak scroth. 
But it's doesn't it lacks the 

723
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:53,120
the the proper throat and tongue
for to form the sounds, you 

724
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:58,160
know, and maybe it's a power 
that is only returned to the 

725
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:00,920
world because of we're in a high
magic era. 

726
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:04,920
Maybe 300 years ago this magic 
wouldn't have worked, but 600 

727
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:07,360
years ago it would have. 
Maybe 1000 years ago it wouldn't

728
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:09,280
have, but 10,000 years ago it 
would have. 

729
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:11,120
Because these things seem to ebb
and flow, right? 

730
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:13,920
We're not sure what makes them 
ebb and flow, but there does 

731
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,600
seem to be an ebb and a flow, 
right? 

732
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:21,560
Maybe Bloodraven raised cold 
hands as a last resort, a power 

733
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:23,880
that they normally would shun, 
that they would not use. 

734
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:27,080
But they only are using it 
because circumstances are so 

735
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:30,040
extreme, kind of like Melisandre
might have to raise John. 

736
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:33,840
Now, Melisandre won't see it as 
extreme or because she already 

737
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:38,920
is of well set of the idea that 
the ends justify the means. 

738
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:40,400
So she's not going to quibble 
with that. 

739
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:42,280
But she might be surprised that 
it works. 

740
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:44,800
She would be like, whoa, I 
didn't know I could do that. 

741
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:48,400
I'm just like, Thoros didn't 
know he could do it, you know? 

742
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:50,360
But let's not get ahead of 
ourselves. 

743
00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:52,520
We're not talking about the the 
relorists yet. 

744
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:56,560
But it does seem to be curious 
that Doros is the only one 

745
00:37:56,560 --> 00:38:01,040
that's done it so far. 
Let's talk about some arcane 

746
00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:05,440
countermeasures to necromancy. 
This next section is called anti

747
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:11,040
necromancy. 
Outside of naturally occurring 

748
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:15,040
solutions like fire and 
dragonglass and not entirely 

749
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:18,840
certain man made solutions like 
dragon steel or Valyrian steel, 

750
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:21,600
which might be the same thing or
nearly the same thing of course.

751
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:25,520
So there's also this concept of 
wards, A barrier that certain 

752
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:28,840
beings, certain magics cannot 
pass. 

753
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:32,480
In the case of the others, it 
affects them and that which 

754
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:35,200
they've raised. 
So it's kind of like a cover all

755
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:37,920
for necromancy and necromancers.
And of course I'm referring to 

756
00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:42,040
the wall and The Cave that 
Bloodraven resides in with all 

757
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:44,120
those other green seers. 
Like they can't go in there. 

758
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:46,200
Cold hands couldn't pass that 
either. 

759
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:49,360
So that does imply that maybe 
it's kind of a catch all for the

760
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:53,080
dead or shadows. 
Because remember Storm's End has

761
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:55,840
a similar ward and Alessandra 
had to get inside the walls of 

762
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:59,080
Storm and Zen to release that 
shadow or else it would have 

763
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:02,360
just been unable to penetrate 
that magical barrier. 

764
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:05,440
The wall doesn't just prevent 
the others from passing it, it 

765
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:08,640
prevents the rays dead. 
Remember they they can't awaken 

766
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:11,560
on the other side. 
Again the example of O Thor and 

767
00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:14,960
Jay for flowers, the ones who 
attacked the 1st Ranger and the 

768
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:17,040
Lord Commander. 
This one's a real Gray area 

769
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:19,240
right? 
Like they already had the blue 

770
00:39:19,240 --> 00:39:22,680
eyes on the other side of the 
wall, but they couldn't shamble 

771
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:25,400
through on their own legs. 
Not that they could have anyway,

772
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:28,080
because the Nights Watch would 
have stopped them. 

773
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,200
But like, let's say no one was 
watching and they tried to sneak

774
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:32,680
through the wall. 
You know, they probably would 

775
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:36,840
have just dissipated or just run
into an invisible force field or

776
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:39,000
just, yeah, I don't know how it 
actually manifests. 

777
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:42,320
Again, don't use ATV show for an
example, because little details 

778
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:43,800
like that are not what they got 
from George. 

779
00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:47,240
I don't think the basic concept 
of it of the ward, yes, but the 

780
00:39:47,240 --> 00:39:50,840
like how it actually plays out 
when people try to cross it. 

781
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:53,400
Yeah, I don't know. 
That's that's something I 

782
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:54,880
wouldn't imagine the TV show for
that. 

783
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:57,280
Cold hands can't pass the black 
gate. 

784
00:39:57,560 --> 00:39:59,640
Probably the same magic, right. 
What? 

785
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:03,360
So he's the product of 
necromancy and can't pass. 

786
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:06,640
That's probably why The Walking 
Dead can't pass. 

787
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:07,920
It doesn't matter who animated 
you. 

788
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:11,200
It doesn't matter if you're good
undead, you can't pass, period. 

789
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:13,680
And he couldn't enter the green 
Seer cave, even their own cave. 

790
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:15,920
There was no way for them to 
like make a magical exception 

791
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:17,400
for him. 
And and they probably didn't 

792
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:19,240
care. 
He's just, to them, he's just a 

793
00:40:19,240 --> 00:40:22,680
dead body. 
You know, Bran was sympathetic 

794
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:24,800
to him, but Bloodraven wasn't. 
He's like, yeah, that. 

795
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:26,840
No, that's that dude's been dead
for a long time. 

796
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:29,360
He said it himself, like, I died
long ago. 

797
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:31,960
That might have been 
Bloodraven's voice through him. 

798
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:33,840
He may not have had any 
consciousness whatsoever. 

799
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:35,120
Back to Melisandre briefly, 
though. 

800
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:37,520
She believes she can make 
powerful shadows at the Wall, 

801
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:41,120
but can they actually cross it? 
I don't know if she's thought 

802
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:43,640
about it in that light. 
So. 

803
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:48,040
So I think what we might have 
here is a case where the others 

804
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:51,680
or a green seer like blood Raven
can raise the dead, but that 

805
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:54,680
spell can be broken through 
other through anti magical means

806
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:59,280
again, dragonglass or Valyrian 
steel perhaps Like if a again, 

807
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:02,880
if a corpse is completely 
immolated, it's been destroyed 

808
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:05,320
to the point where it can't be 
resurrected or raised again 

809
00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:07,160
because it's just like half ash 
now. 

810
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:10,960
And maybe the other feels that 
maybe if you light a white on 

811
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:15,400
fire, just like Vermeer Sixskins
felt Orel the eagle when when 

812
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:17,680
Melisandre torched, it sparked 
that eagle. 

813
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:19,600
He felt it. 
It was horrible. 

814
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:22,240
It was skin searing. 
He felt like he was burning from

815
00:41:22,240 --> 00:41:24,080
the inside. 
He said he'd never felt pain 

816
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:26,960
like that in his life. 
Do the others feel the pain of 

817
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:28,680
what happens to the? 
Because if we're thinking of 

818
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:32,280
this is a skin changing thing. 
They can feel what happens to 

819
00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:34,560
the animal that you're a vessel 
of or that you are in. 

820
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:38,240
Well, if it is that, then the 
others could feel what happens 

821
00:41:38,240 --> 00:41:40,200
to the dead bodies that they're 
in control of. 

822
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:41,320
Maybe. 
Yeah. 

823
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:44,400
So I would think that yes, 
raising the dead multiple times 

824
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:48,080
can definitely happen if the 
dead body and still is still 

825
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:51,960
viable as a walking thing. 
And let's not forget too that if

826
00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:56,040
you just cut a walking cut a 
white into pieces using regular 

827
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:59,200
steel, the pieces still squirm 
around. 

828
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:04,720
It isn't dead, it's just reduced
to ineffectual size, right? 

829
00:42:04,720 --> 00:42:08,560
We've seen like a hand crawling 
on the ground, like ghost eats a

830
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:11,760
moving hand at one point because
it's like that thing is still 

831
00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:14,920
got magic in it. 
But if that hand had been cut 

832
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:17,080
off with dragonglass, I bet it 
would have stopped moving 

833
00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:19,880
because like this that severs 
the like magical connection, the

834
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:23,920
magical tether to the master 
slave kind of dealio. 

835
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:31,160
Let's talk about the difference 
between resurrection and raising

836
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:33,480
the dead. 
There's not a lot of difference,

837
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:35,680
but there is some. 
And it's important to get 

838
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:38,280
ourselves straight on what that 
is. 

839
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:42,440
Here is a quote from The World 
of Ice and Fire. 

840
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:47,280
Yet there are other tales, 
harder to credit and yet more 

841
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:51,600
central to the old histories 
about creatures known as the 

842
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:54,760
Others. 
According to these tales, they 

843
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:59,800
came from the frozen land of 
always winter, bringing the cold

844
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:04,160
and darkness with them as they 
sought to extinguish all light 

845
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:07,600
and warmth. 
The tales go on to say they rode

846
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:12,160
monstrous ice spiders and the 
horses of the dead resurrected 

847
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:16,640
to serve them, just as they 
resurrected dead men to fight on

848
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:20,840
their behalf. 
Curiously, those two uses of the

849
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:24,760
word resurrected are the only 
two uses of the word resurrect 

850
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:27,000
in all of A Song of Ice and Fire
literature. 

851
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:29,760
In real life, again, we hear 
lots of stories about people 

852
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:32,480
coming back from the dead, but 
it isn't always called 

853
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:34,680
resurrection. 
It's often just called, well, 

854
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:37,280
coming back from the dead. 
There isn't always a term for 

855
00:43:37,280 --> 00:43:39,280
it. 
It comes in many forms besides 

856
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:41,800
just to return to the living. 
In the fantasy realm, it's much 

857
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:44,800
broader because we have all the 
various forms of animated 

858
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:49,040
corpses and the the various 
states of life or not life that 

859
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:51,520
come within that. 
Like are you still the person 

860
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:54,560
you were or you not? 
You've got souls thrown in the 

861
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:55,960
mix. 
It's not just the bodies, but 

862
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:57,680
the the the person's inner 
being. 

863
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:02,640
When resurrection has a capital 
R that's Christian, that's about

864
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:06,160
Jesus. 
When it's lowercase R over time 

865
00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:09,320
that's become a catch all for 
coming back from the dead. 

866
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:12,400
But originally the concept was 
pretty much Christian. 

867
00:44:13,240 --> 00:44:14,560
It was the word, not the 
concept. 

868
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:16,520
The word was very associated 
with Christian. 

869
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:19,760
It's a Latin resurrection. 
Well, of course the concept is 

870
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:22,280
not uniquely Christian, but the 
word resurrection is. 

871
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:25,360
And of course, that's a lot of 
languages. 

872
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:28,160
I mean, it's English, right? 
If you're talking like Arabic, 

873
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:31,240
well, they have a word for that.
It's just it's not resurrection.

874
00:44:31,240 --> 00:44:33,080
They have a translator. 
I don't know what that word is, 

875
00:44:33,240 --> 00:44:34,760
Kumaya or something like that, I
forget. 

876
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:37,840
Anyway, the other major 
difference though, with real 

877
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:43,680
world resurrection stories is 
that you always, you almost 

878
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:47,320
always either come back the same
or better, new and improved. 

879
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:50,640
And this is very common with 
divine beings. 

880
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:55,240
Like when Jesus dies and comes 
back, he's more glorious and 

881
00:44:55,240 --> 00:44:57,960
powerful than he was when he 
came to came in his original 

882
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:01,800
form. 
Balder, son of Odin, Thor, I 

883
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:04,200
forget one of the Norse gods, he
dies and comes back. 

884
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:06,560
Set the Egyptian God dies and 
comes back. 

885
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:10,400
There's so many tales of Greek 
and Egyptian and go going to the

886
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:12,720
underworld, visiting the realm 
of the dead. 

887
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:16,360
Often the God is talking to 
their brother or sister who's in

888
00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:18,240
charge of the underworld. 
Say, hey bro, can I get in there

889
00:45:18,240 --> 00:45:20,720
to talk to somebody? 
You know, it's like because 

890
00:45:20,720 --> 00:45:22,680
they're all related, a lot of 
times the gods are right. 

891
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:25,280
That's that's pretty common. 
So it's really old, these 

892
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:29,080
stories of necromancy, talking 
to the dead, you know, whether 

893
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:32,200
you have to summon the spirit or
in some cases you have to travel

894
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:34,520
to the world of the dead 
yourself, you know, rather than 

895
00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:36,440
bringing them out, you go there 
to meet them. 

896
00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:38,560
You know, it's just a matter of 
whether they come to meet you or

897
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:42,080
you come to meet them. 
And really life and death, it's 

898
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:44,560
there's of course, humanity is 
obsessed with it. 

899
00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:46,560
It defines us. 
It's everything. 

900
00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:49,480
It's interesting to think about 
that, though, Like we as humans,

901
00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:54,680
we have so much to learn about 
life, but we know less about 

902
00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:57,160
death, probably, unless the 
atheists have it right. 

903
00:45:57,200 --> 00:45:59,440
Unless there's nothing, in which
case, well, that's that. 

904
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:04,560
There's not much to know. 
But even the nation, the notion 

905
00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:07,480
of like, how long can someone in
the real world be dead before 

906
00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:10,320
being brought back? 
Like if you drown, which is 

907
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:11,680
something we're going to talk 
about, drown. 

908
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:13,720
God, hello. 
If you drown and aren't 

909
00:46:13,720 --> 00:46:17,280
breathing, but someone pumps 
your lungs and your system 

910
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:20,760
starts back up again, your, your
circulatory system, your 

911
00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:23,480
breathing system had stopped and
it starts again. 

912
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:26,480
Were you dead? 
That's a real semantic 

913
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:29,960
philosophical debate. 
Did you come back from the dead?

914
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:32,720
Probably not. 
But were you alive also maybe 

915
00:46:32,720 --> 00:46:34,080
not. 
Maybe there's you're in some 

916
00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:35,960
third middle state. 
I don't know. 

917
00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:39,000
It gets tricky, right? 
These, these differences. 

918
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:43,000
So bringing this all back, 
resurrection doesn't seem to be 

919
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:47,040
a thing in A Song of Ice and 
Fire, despite the use of the 

920
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:49,760
word there. 
Because there isn't any examples

921
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:53,520
we have that we know of of 
someone dying and coming back 

922
00:46:53,720 --> 00:46:55,600
better. 
It almost always they come back 

923
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:58,640
lesser. 
Barrick progressively lesser, 

924
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:01,160
right? 
There is no Gandalf the Gray 

925
00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:03,160
becoming Gandalf the White in 
this story. 

926
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:06,080
As much of a fan of Lord of the 
Rings as George RR Martin is. 

927
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:10,040
Well, the Astari are immortal 
anyway, so he can't. 

928
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:12,200
He can't really die. 
But still, you see what I mean? 

929
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:13,920
He came back stronger than he 
was. 

930
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:19,400
Maybe undead John will be 
stronger, but he probably not. 

931
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:21,880
He might be cooler, though. 
He might be more interesting, 

932
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:25,400
but I doubt he'll be like more 
human than he was. 

933
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:29,400
You know, I doubt he'll yeah, 
that he'll come off as having a 

934
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:31,320
more distinct personality. 
It might be a different 

935
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:32,720
personality, but yeah, I don't 
know. 

936
00:47:32,720 --> 00:47:35,640
It's it's tricky there. 
And within a from a functional 

937
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:38,280
perspective, especially with his
within A Song of Ice and Fire, 

938
00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:41,280
it seems that is the difference.
The difference between raising 

939
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:44,360
the dead and resurrection, or at
least where the line should be 

940
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:48,800
drawn, has to do with humanity, 
as in how much is present, or 

941
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:52,400
rather how much remains. 
Again, we come back to Barrick 

942
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:55,240
because he is the example of 
this, because we see step by 

943
00:47:55,240 --> 00:47:57,440
step him losing his humanity 
with each death. 

944
00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:01,960
He is the like blueprint for so 
much of this. 

945
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:04,800
When he was raised the first 
time, he had a lot of himself, 

946
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:06,040
but he'd already lost some of 
it. 

947
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:10,560
With each successive death he 
became less barrack and more of 

948
00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:14,280
a simulacrum of barrack. 
The Lightning Lord was what he 

949
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:19,320
became, an idea, not a person. 
He lost his memories, He lost 

950
00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:20,920
who he was. 
He couldn't remember where he'd 

951
00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:23,120
been born, he couldn't remember 
who he'd been married to. 

952
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:24,840
He can't remember what she 
looked like. 

953
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:30,200
He it wore on him, which is a 
sign that he did have humanity, 

954
00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:32,600
because if he was just a 
simulacrum, he wouldn't bother 

955
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:36,120
him that he was not lesser. 
But no, he had enough humanity, 

956
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:40,680
just enough humanity to feel the
loss of humanity that he was 

957
00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:44,080
experiencing. 
And that is both really tragic 

958
00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:47,560
and some damn good writing. 
George is good at that sort of 

959
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:50,760
thing making us feel bad, but 
also like, damn, that was a good

960
00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:53,760
form of bad. 
I was well, well done with that 

961
00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:57,280
bad George. 
And yeah, this is part of the 

962
00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:00,360
reason it's so painful. 
And to think about Barrick and 

963
00:49:00,360 --> 00:49:03,120
and his loss of self is this 
isn't not fantastical. 

964
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:05,840
Yes, the the mechanism for it 
happening to Barrick is very 

965
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:09,320
fantastical, very supernatural, 
but it's absolutely something 

966
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:13,520
can happen in real world terms, 
like you can lose memory, you 

967
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:16,640
can have massive memory loss. 
You can feel separate, You can 

968
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:19,520
feel less than. 
We can wrap ourselves in 

969
00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:22,880
identities that aren't real or 
that we can we can become 

970
00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:24,320
something that is less than 
ourselves. 

971
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:29,440
Like we can become married to 
our work or something else about

972
00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:33,000
us that doesn't make us happy. 
We can lose what made ourselves 

973
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:36,880
make made us what we were. 
Doesn't have to take magic to do

974
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:37,960
that. 
Doesn't have to take dying 

975
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:40,480
multiple times for that. 
Real life is complicated enough 

976
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:43,080
without bringing life and death 
into it. 

977
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:45,600
But we can also do the opposite.
It isn't. 

978
00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:49,560
That's something that George, I 
think, shows us by reading 

979
00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:51,760
between the line. 
You can because one exists. 

980
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:54,440
The opposite does as well. 
We can do the opposite. 

981
00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:56,840
We can rise, forgive the pun, or
don't. 

982
00:49:57,560 --> 00:49:59,240
We can rise above our 
circumstances. 

983
00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:02,400
We can do better, right? 
I don't think Barack Dondarian 

984
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:03,240
could. 
I think he might have been 

985
00:50:03,240 --> 00:50:05,120
locked into it because of the 
magical element. 

986
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:08,720
But humans who haven't been 
raised from the dead, we have 

987
00:50:08,720 --> 00:50:10,000
more choice. 
We have more free will than 

988
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:13,520
that, which is another important
associated concept. 

989
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:17,760
Agency. 
The agency taken away by the 

990
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:21,760
necromancers from those who they
raised from the dead. 

991
00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:25,960
Sir Robert Strong doesn't seem 
to have free will, though it's 

992
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:28,120
not exactly clear. 
Maybe he has some. 

993
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:31,760
But it's hard to tell because he
was already a follower and when 

994
00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:33,760
he was alive, like he just did 
Tywin's bidding. 

995
00:50:33,760 --> 00:50:37,280
He's a a knight under a system 
of authority. 

996
00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:40,120
So he's maybe he's just doing 
what he would have done anyway. 

997
00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:43,480
It's hard to tell, right? 
Barrick and Stoneheart seemed 

998
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:46,800
driven to achieve their goals, 
but do they have free will? 

999
00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:48,200
Sort of. 
That's hard. 

1000
00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:50,600
That's tricky because they're, 
they're kind of stuck on the 

1001
00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:52,760
task that they were doing when 
they died. 

1002
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:55,160
But that doesn't mean they 
couldn't choose to do something 

1003
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:56,000
else. 
But I don't know that they 

1004
00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:57,480
could. 
I, I really, it's, it's just 

1005
00:50:57,480 --> 00:50:58,760
tricky. 
I think they might be stuck on 

1006
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:00,760
that. 
We'll find out maybe in the long

1007
00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:02,800
run if Stoneheart it's too late 
for Barrick, but maybe 

1008
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:05,800
Stoneheart will leave this the 
river if she leaves the 

1009
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:07,840
Riverlands to go north or 
something like that, that would 

1010
00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:12,080
strongly suggest that she is not
just locked in some cycle. 

1011
00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:14,600
Yeah, again, Cold Hands didn't 
seem to have free will either. 

1012
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:17,120
He seemed to be entirely doing 
Blood Ravens bidding and they 

1013
00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:19,120
just discarded his body when 
they were done with him. 

1014
00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:21,800
But coming back to the concept 
of necromancy, whether the 

1015
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:24,720
raised being actually has free 
will or not doesn't change 

1016
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:26,840
whether or not it's actually 
necromancy. 

1017
00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:29,040
It's not like oh, you have free 
will, it's not necromancy if you

1018
00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:31,720
have, if you do have free will, 
it is right or other way around 

1019
00:51:31,720 --> 00:51:32,920
really. 
But see, that's not the 

1020
00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:35,680
distinction. 
That's not the point here. 

1021
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:40,000
I think motive plays a role. 
Like again, if you raise the 

1022
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:42,640
dead and send them after the 
living, well that's pretty evil.

1023
00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:45,960
But again, using recycling my 
examples, what if you raise the 

1024
00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:49,160
dead and have them do community 
service? 

1025
00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:51,680
Pretty damn creepy. 
I mean, maybe they should, Yeah,

1026
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:55,680
but it's, it's way better than 
sending them to kill people, 

1027
00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:58,160
right? 
So, yeah, motive, again, just 

1028
00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:01,920
like context, determines whether
it's raising the dead or 

1029
00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:05,240
resurrection or necromancy. 
Motive plays a role in what's 

1030
00:52:05,240 --> 00:52:07,160
going on here, whether agency is
allowed. 

1031
00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:10,160
In some worlds, resurrection 
could be properly seen as 

1032
00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:12,600
distinct from raising the dead 
on the basis of being whole, 

1033
00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:14,680
right? 
If you're still whole, if you're

1034
00:52:14,680 --> 00:52:17,360
still who you were, then that's 
a resurrection. 

1035
00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:20,760
You could look at it that way, 
even though what I said before 

1036
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:23,080
was resurrection implies you 
come back better. 

1037
00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:25,600
But that's again, that's kind of
from the Christian influence. 

1038
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:29,560
George's version doesn't have to
work that way, but it doesn't 

1039
00:52:29,560 --> 00:52:32,040
seem to work that way on planet.
It seems like all versions of 

1040
00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:33,880
coming back from the dead leave 
you as less than. 

1041
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:36,000
Either way. 
There's no clear line here. 

1042
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:38,240
No either or. 
It's a spectrum, like many 

1043
00:52:38,240 --> 00:52:39,480
things in life. 
You can't make it black and 

1044
00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:41,160
white. 
You have to look at ranges, 

1045
00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:44,800
Shades of Grey in between. 
When John comes back, will he be

1046
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:46,400
different? 
Most certainly. 

1047
00:52:46,520 --> 00:52:51,040
But will he be less human? 
That's not the same thing, and 

1048
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:54,720
we don't know yet. 
Are you automatically less human

1049
00:52:54,720 --> 00:52:56,280
if you've broken the rules of 
death? 

1050
00:52:57,480 --> 00:52:59,960
Well, surely the answer is yes 
if you're talking about a 

1051
00:52:59,960 --> 00:53:02,520
walking corpse with no just 
shambling about. 

1052
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:06,480
But what about the TV version of
Jon Snow where it seemed like 

1053
00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:09,960
there was basically no 
consequence for him dying and 

1054
00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:12,400
coming back? 
He was basically the same guy 

1055
00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:17,760
that I would say yes, he's still
just as human as he was before. 

1056
00:53:18,040 --> 00:53:20,560
He had a life after death 
experience but came back. 

1057
00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:21,880
Plenty of real people have had 
that. 

1058
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:24,520
Like they almost drowned you 
almost died, You, you, you, 

1059
00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:27,240
you're in surgery and you're 
declared legally dead. 

1060
00:53:27,240 --> 00:53:30,720
But you come back again using 
that example of someone who's 

1061
00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:33,720
stopped breathing because their 
lungs are full of water, but 

1062
00:53:33,720 --> 00:53:36,960
still CPR brings you out of it. 
Lady Stoneheart again, maybe the

1063
00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:39,160
line is somewhere between 
Stoneheart and the TV version of

1064
00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:41,080
Jon Snow. 
She has Catlin in her. 

1065
00:53:41,080 --> 00:53:44,600
There's parts of Catlin in her. 
She there's the vindictive part,

1066
00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:48,040
the part that remembers what 
family she belonged to and the 

1067
00:53:48,040 --> 00:53:51,000
part that remembers that Arya is
alive and is searching for her. 

1068
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:53,960
Those are Catlin things. 
Those aren't just, you know, 

1069
00:53:53,960 --> 00:53:56,720
dead person remembering what to 
do. 

1070
00:53:57,200 --> 00:53:58,960
And it's also a good example of 
why it's not simple. 

1071
00:53:59,080 --> 00:54:03,480
Now we might actually get Jon 
Snow's death POV. 

1072
00:54:03,720 --> 00:54:05,880
Like we get to see what he's 
like inside and we'll get to 

1073
00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:08,080
compare the two and what's 
different there. 

1074
00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:09,760
And that'll be that'll be 
curious. 

1075
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:11,800
It was kind of a wasted 
opportunity on the show. 

1076
00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:14,000
Maybe not kind of definitely a 
wasted opportunity in the show. 

1077
00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:15,320
But George isn't going to do 
that. 

1078
00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:16,760
George isn't going to abandon 
all that set up. 

1079
00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:19,320
John's just not going to just 
pop up and be the same. 

1080
00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:21,760
Definitely not. 
And I hope we keep his POV. 

1081
00:54:22,040 --> 00:54:24,520
There's a chance we lose it. 
We lost Kat's POV after she 

1082
00:54:24,520 --> 00:54:25,920
died. 
So we didn't get to we didn't 

1083
00:54:25,920 --> 00:54:29,000
get to see the inner workings of
the undead mind. 

1084
00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:31,880
I hope we get it for John. 
But if we don't, well, that's 

1085
00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:33,560
why, because it's an undead 
mind. 

1086
00:54:34,320 --> 00:54:40,280
So again, I want to reiterate 
terms like necromancy, 

1087
00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:43,880
resurrection. 
Judge them based on context, not

1088
00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:47,040
on strict definition. 
At least when it comes to A Song

1089
00:54:47,040 --> 00:54:50,880
of Ice and Fire. 
Let's talk about relore. 

1090
00:54:51,040 --> 00:54:54,200
The powers of the Red God have 
much to do with overcoming human

1091
00:54:54,200 --> 00:54:57,160
restrictions on life and death. 
Their idea of paradise, which is

1092
00:54:57,160 --> 00:54:59,120
kind of an equivalent of heaven 
if you want to think about it 

1093
00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:01,960
that way, is a summer that 
doesn't end, where no one dies. 

1094
00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:05,080
That actually sounds terrible, 
but it's also kind of the 

1095
00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:07,800
opposite of the others. 
A winter that doesn't end and 

1096
00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:10,680
everyone dies, whereas the 
summer that doesn't end and no 

1097
00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:12,360
one dies. 
The only similarity there is 

1098
00:55:12,360 --> 00:55:14,120
that it's the season that 
doesn't end. 

1099
00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:17,160
We have the opposing season and 
the opposing outcome for 

1100
00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:19,600
humanity. 
The red gods version, Yeah, it's

1101
00:55:19,640 --> 00:55:21,400
pretty bad. 
I mean, it sounds good to some 

1102
00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:24,720
people who have drinking, who've
drank the kool-aid, but that no 

1103
00:55:24,720 --> 00:55:27,040
one ever dying. 
Endless summer, that's not good.

1104
00:55:27,040 --> 00:55:28,800
Nature wouldn't be cool with 
that. 

1105
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:32,120
Overpopulation plus ecological 
disasters, Yeah, that's not 

1106
00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:34,600
good. 
I think the I think the old guys

1107
00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:36,000
understand that this is a bad 
idea. 

1108
00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:38,120
The Children of the Forest would
look at that and go, that's not 

1109
00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:40,240
good. 
We know nature, that's not good.

1110
00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:42,960
You got to have cycles, You got 
to have seasons, you know? 

1111
00:55:43,680 --> 00:55:47,200
But in both of these examples, 
both of these versions, the 

1112
00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:52,080
magic wielders are the masters, 
as in the masters and the 

1113
00:55:52,080 --> 00:55:54,040
slaves. 
The others rule the dead through

1114
00:55:54,040 --> 00:55:58,120
necromancy, while the priests of
Rellore are in charge via being 

1115
00:55:58,120 --> 00:55:59,440
at the top of the church 
hierarchy. 

1116
00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:02,760
They're the religious they're 
the head of the hierarchy There 

1117
00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:05,360
hierarchy is the right word and 
by being the ones that actually 

1118
00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:07,240
wield magic, which is part of 
why they're at the top of the 

1119
00:56:07,240 --> 00:56:09,880
hierarchy. 
Ancient Greek culture is one 

1120
00:56:09,880 --> 00:56:12,280
place we can find some push back
against this idea. 

1121
00:56:12,440 --> 00:56:15,080
The Greeks were big on the 
concept of immortality, but it 

1122
00:56:15,080 --> 00:56:17,320
was very much like the Christian
version of resurrection where 

1123
00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:21,560
you you could die and come back 
as a God be the basically being 

1124
00:56:21,560 --> 00:56:27,520
the same or humans can earn 
immortality in death, but it's 

1125
00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:29,320
different. 
It is kind of like the 

1126
00:56:29,320 --> 00:56:31,840
resurrection word, but you don't
come back to live among the 

1127
00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:35,800
living you get There's kind of 
two versions of immortality in 

1128
00:56:35,960 --> 00:56:38,200
the Greek world for humans and 
sometimes you get both. 

1129
00:56:38,480 --> 00:56:41,960
One of them is you are 
immortalized, meaning you are 

1130
00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:44,200
never forgotten. 
So you your name is never 

1131
00:56:44,200 --> 00:56:45,280
forgotten. 
There's nothing to do with you 

1132
00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:47,840
being alive or living on and 
somewhere else. 

1133
00:56:48,480 --> 00:56:50,680
It means you are remembered 
forever immortalized. 

1134
00:56:50,680 --> 00:56:55,400
Not truly immortal, but there is
the the more strict version of 

1135
00:56:55,400 --> 00:56:58,960
immortality where say Achilles, 
Achilles was whisked away from 

1136
00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:02,240
his own funeral pyre and made 
immortal by his mother. 

1137
00:57:02,240 --> 00:57:05,120
He went on to live in the 
Elysian Plains, which is an 

1138
00:57:05,120 --> 00:57:08,080
afterlife. 
So he to this day, Achilles is 

1139
00:57:08,080 --> 00:57:11,560
still walking, walking around on
the on the Elysian Plains. 

1140
00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:13,920
So like a perfect example of 
what I'm saying here. 

1141
00:57:13,920 --> 00:57:17,760
He died, but was both 
immortalized in the sense that 

1142
00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:19,400
hey, we're talking about him 
2000 years later. 

1143
00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:23,440
No one's forgotten this guy. 
And he is also living on in the 

1144
00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:26,440
afterlife because of his 
immortal, his magical mother, 

1145
00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:28,120
his supernatural mother that 
gave that to him. 

1146
00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:30,720
So it's kind of like a soul. 
It killed the soul of Achilles 

1147
00:57:30,720 --> 00:57:33,880
lives on in the Elysian Plains, 
like many people believe people 

1148
00:57:33,880 --> 00:57:37,800
will live on in heaven or one of
the other versions of heaven 

1149
00:57:37,800 --> 00:57:40,440
that exists. 
So more straightforward than any

1150
00:57:40,440 --> 00:57:43,560
of that stuff, which is a 
little, you know, out there in 

1151
00:57:43,560 --> 00:57:46,200
terms of not, not specific. 
It's not as detailed. 

1152
00:57:46,440 --> 00:57:50,560
The kiss of life is something we
see very straightforwardly. 

1153
00:57:50,600 --> 00:57:55,160
Well, see, it's still kind of 
off page, but we see most of it.

1154
00:57:55,440 --> 00:57:58,400
Thoros Amir once again is the 
very first person we see perform

1155
00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:01,520
it, and of course no one else 
has done it yet that we've seen.

1156
00:58:01,520 --> 00:58:05,240
And to hear him tell it, he had 
done it many times without 

1157
00:58:05,240 --> 00:58:10,920
success until quote. 
I have no magic child, only 

1158
00:58:10,920 --> 00:58:14,560
prayers. 
That first time his lordship had

1159
00:58:14,560 --> 00:58:18,880
a hole right through him and 
blood in his mouth, I knew there

1160
00:58:18,880 --> 00:58:22,800
was no hope. 
So when his poor torn chest 

1161
00:58:23,040 --> 00:58:27,560
stopped moving, I gave him the 
good God's own kiss to send him 

1162
00:58:27,560 --> 00:58:31,240
on his way. 
I filled my mouth with fire and 

1163
00:58:31,240 --> 00:58:35,680
breathed the flames inside him 
down his throat to lungs and 

1164
00:58:35,680 --> 00:58:39,840
heart and soul. 
The last kiss it is called, and 

1165
00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:43,760
many a time I saw the old 
priests bestow it on the Lord's 

1166
00:58:43,760 --> 00:58:47,200
servants as they died. 
I had given it a time or two 

1167
00:58:47,200 --> 00:58:53,480
myself, as all priests must, but
never before had I felt a dead 

1168
00:58:53,480 --> 00:58:58,120
man shudder as the fire filled 
him, nor seen his eyes come 

1169
00:58:58,120 --> 00:59:01,040
open. 
It was not me who raised him, my

1170
00:59:01,040 --> 00:59:05,080
lady, It was the Lord. 
Rellore is not done with him 

1171
00:59:05,080 --> 00:59:08,480
yet. 
Life is warmth, and warmth is 

1172
00:59:08,480 --> 00:59:11,800
fire, and fire is gods and gods 
alone. 

1173
00:59:12,800 --> 00:59:15,640
You could see the Christian 
influence there. 

1174
00:59:15,760 --> 00:59:19,960
Where when we went through those
Bible passages, the point wasn't

1175
00:59:20,120 --> 00:59:24,400
these magics do exist, but only 
God should be allowed to use 

1176
00:59:24,400 --> 00:59:26,280
them. 
This is what is thorough saying 

1177
00:59:26,280 --> 00:59:28,600
here, that I didn't do it. 
No, the Lord did it. 

1178
00:59:28,600 --> 00:59:32,080
It's God's magic, God's alone. 
I'm just a vessel. 

1179
00:59:32,360 --> 00:59:35,360
Right? 
But it's a curious thing to do. 

1180
00:59:35,360 --> 00:59:39,240
Like sending flame from their 
mouth into the dead. 

1181
00:59:39,920 --> 00:59:44,280
Surely they didn't always do 
this without expectation of any 

1182
00:59:44,280 --> 00:59:46,840
results. 
You're telling me that for 

1183
00:59:46,840 --> 00:59:50,280
10,000 years reloris have been 
whatever that means, filling 

1184
00:59:50,280 --> 00:59:53,360
their mouth with fire, breathing
it into the dead and expecting 

1185
00:59:53,360 --> 00:59:56,120
no result? 
I think it probably used to work

1186
00:59:56,720 --> 00:59:58,800
back in the day. 
It was how they discovered this 

1187
00:59:59,200 --> 01:00:02,600
and they kept doing it, bringing
back their own followers or 

1188
01:00:02,600 --> 01:00:06,280
their own high-ranking 
individuals within within the. 

1189
01:00:06,760 --> 01:00:08,440
The structure of the church, 
the, the Super, the people who 

1190
01:00:08,440 --> 01:00:12,040
are most important, perhaps, 
maybe not everybody, but it 

1191
01:00:12,040 --> 01:00:16,680
stopped working, you know, like 
a lot of magic did, it waned and

1192
01:00:16,680 --> 01:00:19,680
now it's coming back and people 
like Thoros are discovering, 

1193
01:00:19,680 --> 01:00:23,480
hey, this isn't just a ritual. 
It's something that probably 

1194
01:00:23,480 --> 01:00:25,720
also worked back in the day and 
is now working again. 

1195
01:00:25,720 --> 01:00:28,200
It was maybe it's been so long 
that he had never heard of it 

1196
01:00:28,800 --> 01:00:31,120
actually working. 
Maybe it's been 1000 years or 

1197
01:00:31,120 --> 01:00:32,320
something like that, maybe even 
longer. 

1198
01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:38,960
So this is really important too,
because Thoros is very he's just

1199
01:00:39,040 --> 01:00:40,680
amazed. 
He's like, he can't believe it 

1200
01:00:40,680 --> 01:00:43,720
worked and he almost doesn't 
want it to be from him. 

1201
01:00:43,720 --> 01:00:47,760
He's it's part of this saying 
it's the power of the Lord is 

1202
01:00:47,760 --> 01:00:50,840
him projecting because he 
doesn't want to be responsible 

1203
01:00:50,840 --> 01:00:53,440
for it. 
I think it's a bad thing. 

1204
01:00:53,600 --> 01:00:56,520
He doesn't raise anybody else. 
That's a big deal, right? 

1205
01:00:56,520 --> 01:00:58,760
He only re raises Barrick 
repeatedly. 

1206
01:00:58,920 --> 01:01:01,920
He refuses to raise Stoneheart 
and and then Barrick just does 

1207
01:01:01,920 --> 01:01:05,880
it on his own. 
So he's very reluctant to use 

1208
01:01:05,880 --> 01:01:08,800
this power again. 
It's possible he hasn't even 

1209
01:01:08,800 --> 01:01:10,880
tried. 
It's possible that after it 

1210
01:01:10,880 --> 01:01:13,080
worked on Barrick, he's like, 
oh, go, I'm not doing that 

1211
01:01:13,080 --> 01:01:15,800
again. 
This is necromancy. 

1212
01:01:16,000 --> 01:01:18,360
I'm not comfortable with this. 
I'm OK bringing Barrick back. 

1213
01:01:18,360 --> 01:01:19,920
He's our leader. 
We need him. 

1214
01:01:20,280 --> 01:01:24,280
And given Thoros his sincere 
belief in why Barrick was 

1215
01:01:24,280 --> 01:01:28,600
raised, like because the Lord 
isn't done with him, he's like, 

1216
01:01:28,600 --> 01:01:30,720
OK, well, I'm, I'm going to 
follow through with that. 

1217
01:01:30,720 --> 01:01:33,480
But he's doesn't want to look 
behind the curtain to see if 

1218
01:01:33,480 --> 01:01:35,480
there's more. 
He doesn't want to raise anybody

1219
01:01:35,480 --> 01:01:38,000
else. 
And it's isn't that telling that

1220
01:01:38,000 --> 01:01:39,560
he hasn't tried as far as we 
know. 

1221
01:01:39,560 --> 01:01:42,720
Like he only did it with Barrick
multiple times and nobody else. 

1222
01:01:43,320 --> 01:01:45,360
That's really, really 
interesting to me. 

1223
01:01:45,880 --> 01:01:50,560
And he says each time is harder.
Not Thoros, mind you, Barrick. 

1224
01:01:50,560 --> 01:01:52,240
Barrick says each time is 
harder. 

1225
01:01:52,680 --> 01:01:55,440
Actually, no, it it I'm wrong. 
It's more difficult on both of 

1226
01:01:55,440 --> 01:01:57,000
them. 
Thoros says the the spell is 

1227
01:01:57,000 --> 01:01:59,560
harder each time. 
So it's tougher on Barrick and 

1228
01:01:59,560 --> 01:02:01,320
tougher on Thoros. 
And that's why eventually it has

1229
01:02:01,320 --> 01:02:03,680
to stop. 
Part of Barrett's coupled mind 

1230
01:02:03,680 --> 01:02:09,360
manifests in just the idea that 
he's died many times, and it's 

1231
01:02:09,440 --> 01:02:11,080
his loss of humanity is a big 
deal to him. 

1232
01:02:11,080 --> 01:02:15,280
He describes the taste of fire 
and asks, are you my mother, 

1233
01:02:15,280 --> 01:02:17,640
Thoros? 
Because he's, well, he's born 

1234
01:02:17,640 --> 01:02:18,840
again. 
He can't remember the life 

1235
01:02:18,840 --> 01:02:20,800
before that, much of the life 
before that death. 

1236
01:02:20,800 --> 01:02:25,680
And so it's like he was born 
with a hole in his chest and 

1237
01:02:25,680 --> 01:02:27,200
fire in his mouth. 
And what the heck does that 

1238
01:02:27,200 --> 01:02:28,480
taste like? 
He says the taste of fire. 

1239
01:02:28,480 --> 01:02:29,800
And I have no idea what that 
tastes like. 

1240
01:02:30,600 --> 01:02:33,120
It tastes like burning. 
I guess Ralph would know. 

1241
01:02:33,120 --> 01:02:35,440
Yeah, we know. 
What a weird question, though, 

1242
01:02:35,480 --> 01:02:38,040
the philosophical question that 
Barrick asked. 

1243
01:02:38,040 --> 01:02:40,600
Are you my mother? 
Thoros like are it's it's it 

1244
01:02:40,600 --> 01:02:43,040
gets back to that concept of the
of the Neverborn. 

1245
01:02:43,840 --> 01:02:49,000
He was born of no mother, right.
Reborn in this case, and this is

1246
01:02:49,000 --> 01:02:52,680
a question from the undead. 
Do the necromancer in this case 

1247
01:02:52,680 --> 01:02:55,240
really it's probably unfair to 
call Thoros that cause again, it

1248
01:02:55,240 --> 01:02:58,880
was it's intent in in my mind as
I just explained, intent means 

1249
01:02:58,880 --> 01:03:02,520
so much there and Thoros wasn't 
trying to bring back the dead 

1250
01:03:02,760 --> 01:03:05,680
the first time. 
There are necromancers around 

1251
01:03:05,680 --> 01:03:08,760
the world of A Song of Ice and 
Fire and unless he keeps doing 

1252
01:03:08,760 --> 01:03:11,880
it, it's probably not correct to
call him that. 

1253
01:03:11,880 --> 01:03:15,360
But he did it, at least the this
in this case. 

1254
01:03:15,920 --> 01:03:18,880
So it's A Song of Ice and Fire 
is riddled with similar examples

1255
01:03:18,880 --> 01:03:21,400
of moral conundrums. 
Doing the lesser of two evils to

1256
01:03:21,400 --> 01:03:25,000
prevent a greater evil is 
something we see happen a lot. 

1257
01:03:25,680 --> 01:03:28,640
But it's not always easy to 
judge which evil is actually 

1258
01:03:28,640 --> 01:03:31,320
greater, right. 
Sometimes the lesser evil might 

1259
01:03:31,320 --> 01:03:33,320
like that might be the worst of 
the two. 

1260
01:03:33,320 --> 01:03:35,240
You, you, you did lesser evil to
stop the greater. 

1261
01:03:35,240 --> 01:03:37,120
Well, I'm going to quibble with 
you on which of those two is the

1262
01:03:37,120 --> 01:03:39,400
greater evil, especially when 
you can't tell the long term 

1263
01:03:39,400 --> 01:03:41,240
consequences. 
Like that's the thing here. 

1264
01:03:41,240 --> 01:03:43,360
Like, well, what are the long 
term consequences of nobody 

1265
01:03:43,360 --> 01:03:45,800
dying, of everybody being 
brought back from the dead? 

1266
01:03:46,200 --> 01:03:47,520
OK. 
And if you can't bring everybody

1267
01:03:47,520 --> 01:03:50,200
back, then is it fair to only 
bring some people back? 

1268
01:03:50,200 --> 01:03:53,960
Well, what if it's Jon Snow? 
What if it's, you know, Barrack 

1269
01:03:53,960 --> 01:03:56,640
Dandarian and it's circumstances
are really extreme? 

1270
01:03:57,760 --> 01:03:59,880
Yeah, it's not easy. 
It's not easy. 

1271
01:03:59,920 --> 01:04:02,280
That's what George gives us. 
He gives us really difficult 

1272
01:04:02,280 --> 01:04:04,960
moral questions that are not 
answerable. 

1273
01:04:05,080 --> 01:04:08,120
They're only something you can 
kind of frame and you have to 

1274
01:04:08,120 --> 01:04:10,360
set it aside. 
You you'll never, you can't get 

1275
01:04:10,400 --> 01:04:13,960
a, a straightforward answer. 
So another curious aspect of 

1276
01:04:13,960 --> 01:04:17,280
this is that is Barrick passing 
it on. 

1277
01:04:17,400 --> 01:04:20,560
Like that's bizarre to me. 
Like what kind of a necromancer 

1278
01:04:20,560 --> 01:04:25,440
necromantic magic can be passed 
from the receiver to another 

1279
01:04:25,440 --> 01:04:27,800
target? 
It's this is something I can't 

1280
01:04:27,840 --> 01:04:32,760
think of any other examples of. 
Let's get the quote from when 

1281
01:04:32,760 --> 01:04:35,400
Brienne discovers it. 
Lady Catelyn. 

1282
01:04:35,760 --> 01:04:39,680
Tears filled her eyes. 
They said they said that you 

1283
01:04:39,680 --> 01:04:43,040
were dead. 
She is, said Thoros Amir. 

1284
01:04:43,320 --> 01:04:45,760
The phrase slashed her throat 
from here. 

1285
01:04:45,960 --> 01:04:49,040
When we found her by the river, 
she was three days dead. 

1286
01:04:49,400 --> 01:04:54,280
Harwin begged me to give her the
kiss of life, but it had been 

1287
01:04:54,280 --> 01:04:56,680
too long. 
I would not do it. 

1288
01:04:56,960 --> 01:05:02,000
So Lord Barrack put his lips to 
hers instead, and the flame of 

1289
01:05:02,000 --> 01:05:06,640
life passed from him to her, and
she rose. 

1290
01:05:07,120 --> 01:05:10,240
May the Lord of Light protect 
us, she rose. 

1291
01:05:11,280 --> 01:05:14,560
So Thoros was floored when 
Barrack rose the first time and 

1292
01:05:14,560 --> 01:05:18,000
floored that he was able to 
transfer his life force to 

1293
01:05:18,000 --> 01:05:20,680
Catlin. 
And part of the flooring was 

1294
01:05:20,680 --> 01:05:26,000
just the state Catlin's body was
in Is just she's terrifying. 

1295
01:05:26,000 --> 01:05:31,480
She's a a, a gross visage. 
She's I mean, yeah, she's that's

1296
01:05:31,760 --> 01:05:35,720
I wouldn't want to look at that.
He doesn't say you're wrong. 

1297
01:05:36,240 --> 01:05:37,800
He says she I thought you were 
dead. 

1298
01:05:38,080 --> 01:05:41,360
And he says she is dead. 
This is he's not mincing words. 

1299
01:05:41,360 --> 01:05:43,120
This is dead. 
She's The Walking Dead. 

1300
01:05:43,120 --> 01:05:45,000
This is The Walking talking, 
dead talking. 

1301
01:05:45,440 --> 01:05:47,920
Not very well, but she could 
communicate. 

1302
01:05:48,240 --> 01:05:50,600
Combined, this is what we know 
of other aspects of Relor 

1303
01:05:50,600 --> 01:05:52,400
worship, and it paints an 
interesting picture, right? 

1304
01:05:52,400 --> 01:05:55,360
The the whole notion of 
resurrection and raising dead 

1305
01:05:55,360 --> 01:05:58,120
and necromancy. 
Well, previously we've connected

1306
01:05:58,120 --> 01:06:01,200
Zoroastrianism to relorism, and 
that stands pretty well. 

1307
01:06:01,760 --> 01:06:04,280
That hasn't changed by this, 
certainly, but this is another 

1308
01:06:04,280 --> 01:06:06,520
angle to it. 
Religions aren't simple. 

1309
01:06:06,880 --> 01:06:08,080
There's lots of ways to look at 
them. 

1310
01:06:08,720 --> 01:06:14,200
So the worshippers of Relor have
on their docket resurrection and

1311
01:06:14,200 --> 01:06:16,560
the promise of immortality. 
That's actually not that 

1312
01:06:16,560 --> 01:06:18,400
dissimilar from Christianity 
actually. 

1313
01:06:18,400 --> 01:06:21,600
Really the Jesus's resurrection 
is the center of the proof of 

1314
01:06:21,600 --> 01:06:24,040
who he is. 
Without the resurrection, I 

1315
01:06:24,040 --> 01:06:25,480
don't know if you have 
Christianity at all. 

1316
01:06:26,040 --> 01:06:31,240
And Judgment Day is a future 
event in Christian scripture 

1317
01:06:31,840 --> 01:06:35,920
where everyone is raised, 
believers and non believers. 

1318
01:06:36,040 --> 01:06:39,400
Believers go straight to heaven 
on judgment day. 

1319
01:06:39,800 --> 01:06:43,240
Non believers face judgment. 
Islam has the same thing. 

1320
01:06:43,240 --> 01:06:45,040
Well, it's not the exact same, 
but it's very similar. 

1321
01:06:45,040 --> 01:06:47,840
It's called day of resurrection.
It translates as day of 

1322
01:06:47,840 --> 01:06:50,520
resurrection because again, it's
resurrection's a Latin word. 

1323
01:06:50,800 --> 01:06:53,840
But yeah, it's the same thing. 
Everyone's reborn or, or raised 

1324
01:06:53,840 --> 01:06:56,480
from the dead by Allah. 
And there's there's some 

1325
01:06:56,480 --> 01:06:58,800
judgement and it's pretty 
similar, right? 

1326
01:06:58,800 --> 01:07:03,440
So kind of similar to the long 
summer of relore Judaism, 

1327
01:07:03,440 --> 01:07:05,880
Samaritanism also have it, 
although it was kind of an add 

1328
01:07:05,880 --> 01:07:06,880
on. 
They didn't start with it. 

1329
01:07:07,360 --> 01:07:10,600
Judaism and Samaritanism started
didn't have like afterlife with 

1330
01:07:10,600 --> 01:07:15,440
promise really far back during 
the Messianic age, which is 

1331
01:07:16,000 --> 01:07:18,800
added in I think the second or 
third century was added to 

1332
01:07:18,800 --> 01:07:21,040
Hebrew scripture, I believe, and
Samaritan scripture. 

1333
01:07:21,520 --> 01:07:24,760
The the they believe that the 
during the coming Messianic age,

1334
01:07:24,760 --> 01:07:26,640
the God of Israel will give life
to the dead. 

1335
01:07:27,320 --> 01:07:28,920
There you go Judgement day, 
everybody comes back. 

1336
01:07:29,480 --> 01:07:34,120
So again, where lots of debate 
and difference occurs within 

1337
01:07:34,120 --> 01:07:36,720
real world religions is the 
dichotomy between resurrection 

1338
01:07:36,720 --> 01:07:40,560
of the flesh and the soul. 
The difference being whether 

1339
01:07:40,560 --> 01:07:43,640
resurrection or eternity or 
eternal life is just your soul 

1340
01:07:43,720 --> 01:07:45,360
or if it's your body that will 
be raised. 

1341
01:07:45,360 --> 01:07:50,200
Also so of the soul means soul 
only meaning afterlife, non 

1342
01:07:50,200 --> 01:07:54,440
corporeal form. 
But of the flesh means it's your

1343
01:07:54,440 --> 01:07:57,840
actual whole body right? 
Your body comes back whole or 

1344
01:07:57,840 --> 01:08:02,000
reborn or whatever different 
from just a soul right? 

1345
01:08:02,520 --> 01:08:05,320
Other belief systems have a 
little different way to handle 

1346
01:08:05,320 --> 01:08:07,560
this. 
Reincarnation rather than a new,

1347
01:08:07,560 --> 01:08:11,040
rather than coming back as your 
original body, your soul 

1348
01:08:11,040 --> 01:08:13,480
inhabits a new body, whether 
it's a person or you know, a 

1349
01:08:13,480 --> 01:08:17,160
cockroach kind of depends on how
good you were during your life. 

1350
01:08:17,800 --> 01:08:20,040
So yeah, I think these are all 
this long summer idea. 

1351
01:08:20,040 --> 01:08:23,160
These are all just similar to 
these varying forms of judgement

1352
01:08:23,160 --> 01:08:25,120
day, right? 
And that's it's reasonable to 

1353
01:08:25,120 --> 01:08:27,439
maybe learn more Christian on 
that because George was raised 

1354
01:08:27,439 --> 01:08:29,439
Catholic, so that's probably the
biggest influence on him. 

1355
01:08:29,680 --> 01:08:34,120
But of course, he is a man of 
history and reads a lot and has 

1356
01:08:34,120 --> 01:08:36,560
been influenced by a lot of 
things and is very creative on 

1357
01:08:36,560 --> 01:08:39,479
top of all that. 
So we don't need to get too 

1358
01:08:39,479 --> 01:08:40,760
strict with that. 
So yeah, I come back to this 

1359
01:08:40,760 --> 01:08:43,920
question super curious. 
Thoros hasn't raised anyone 

1360
01:08:43,920 --> 01:08:45,479
else. 
He's only raised Barrick several

1361
01:08:45,479 --> 01:08:47,800
times. 
Have other red priests around 

1362
01:08:47,800 --> 01:08:50,640
the world raised anyone at all? 
There's a lot of red priests out

1363
01:08:50,640 --> 01:08:53,520
there. 
Other ones might be given kisses

1364
01:08:53,520 --> 01:08:56,080
of life here and there and 
getting surprising results. 

1365
01:08:57,359 --> 01:09:00,720
But if not, why Barrick? 
Why Thoros? 

1366
01:09:00,720 --> 01:09:01,640
Why? 
What? 

1367
01:09:01,640 --> 01:09:02,600
What's the deal? 
Why? 

1368
01:09:02,600 --> 01:09:05,800
So this is so specific, right? 
So this is an individual, unique

1369
01:09:05,800 --> 01:09:08,800
individual, and I really do 
wonder if Thoros tried it on 

1370
01:09:08,800 --> 01:09:10,760
somebody else, whether it would 
actually even work or not. 

1371
01:09:11,399 --> 01:09:12,920
And how the heck was he able to 
pass it? 

1372
01:09:12,920 --> 01:09:15,640
That is bizarre. 
Thoros believes the Lord of 

1373
01:09:15,640 --> 01:09:18,399
Light brought back Barrack, not 
him again. 

1374
01:09:18,399 --> 01:09:19,399
He's like, no, I don't have 
magic. 

1375
01:09:19,399 --> 01:09:20,760
The Lord of the Light brought 
him back. 

1376
01:09:20,960 --> 01:09:23,960
Well, then why did the Lord of 
Light allow Barrack to pass it 

1377
01:09:23,960 --> 01:09:25,040
on to stone? 
Does that? 

1378
01:09:25,040 --> 01:09:26,720
Does Thoros just going to 
rationalize that he's like, 

1379
01:09:26,720 --> 01:09:28,439
well, this must be what the Lord
of Light wants? 

1380
01:09:29,120 --> 01:09:31,479
At some point, you got to step 
in and realize that there isn't 

1381
01:09:31,520 --> 01:09:34,080
maybe there isn't some guiding 
hand above you there, Thoros, 

1382
01:09:34,960 --> 01:09:39,080
other than George RR Martin. 
So, yeah, that's, that's bizarre

1383
01:09:39,080 --> 01:09:40,399
to me. 
Like, I don't know how you can 

1384
01:09:40,479 --> 01:09:43,680
reconcile those two things 
without filling in the gaps with

1385
01:09:43,680 --> 01:09:45,200
a lot of creativity. 
Because we're, yeah, we're 

1386
01:09:45,200 --> 01:09:46,720
missing some supernatural 
answers here. 

1387
01:09:47,120 --> 01:09:49,160
I'm not saying that George, you 
know, made a mistake. 

1388
01:09:49,160 --> 01:09:50,319
I'm just saying we don't know 
the answers. 

1389
01:09:51,080 --> 01:09:54,840
Lem Lemon Cloak says there's no 
better healer than Thoros, which

1390
01:09:54,840 --> 01:09:56,320
causes Barrack to look at him 
funny. 

1391
01:09:56,320 --> 01:10:00,720
Like, bro, I wasn't just healed.
And then when Lem walks away, he

1392
01:10:00,720 --> 01:10:03,760
comments on how men can be so 
blind to what they don't want to

1393
01:10:03,760 --> 01:10:06,520
see. 
He's clearly Lem isn't seeing 

1394
01:10:06,520 --> 01:10:09,280
the obvious that Barrack is 
raised from the dead repeatedly 

1395
01:10:09,280 --> 01:10:13,840
rather than being healed. 
This is perhaps a statement both

1396
01:10:13,840 --> 01:10:18,840
on how Lem just can't accept 
that someone is being raised 

1397
01:10:18,840 --> 01:10:21,080
from the dead repeatedly that's 
just not doesn't fit in his 

1398
01:10:21,080 --> 01:10:25,040
world view, and that it's also a
morally Gray thing to do in the 

1399
01:10:25,040 --> 01:10:27,480
1st place. 
It's like, well, we think of 

1400
01:10:27,480 --> 01:10:30,040
ourselves as the good guys, you 
know, the Brotherhood out 

1401
01:10:30,040 --> 01:10:32,320
banners, they think they're 
doing good and they they for the

1402
01:10:32,320 --> 01:10:35,120
most part, they were maybe not 
anymore. 

1403
01:10:35,360 --> 01:10:38,440
And now under Stoneheart, you 
know, less so. 

1404
01:10:38,960 --> 01:10:45,440
So this is denial, I think, but 
it's it's very serious denial 

1405
01:10:45,440 --> 01:10:47,600
because it's happening right in 
front of you, seeing things that

1406
01:10:47,600 --> 01:10:51,680
are just pretty blatant and just
isn't able to frame them, isn't 

1407
01:10:51,680 --> 01:10:55,080
able to accept them. 
I guess you could say this also 

1408
01:10:55,080 --> 01:10:57,520
helped explain, though, why 
Thoros isn't getting other 

1409
01:10:57,520 --> 01:11:00,480
requests to raise people. 
Like if Lemon just thinks it's a

1410
01:11:00,480 --> 01:11:02,240
healing, he's like, Thoros could
go, that guy's dead. 

1411
01:11:02,240 --> 01:11:04,560
I can't heal him. 
And Thor, Lemon goes, oh, OK. 

1412
01:11:06,600 --> 01:11:09,920
If they knew he was raising the 
dead, if it was that plain and 

1413
01:11:09,920 --> 01:11:13,360
distinct, they would probably be
like asking for all these other 

1414
01:11:13,360 --> 01:11:16,120
people like raise him, raise 
her, raise my child, raise. 

1415
01:11:16,120 --> 01:11:19,200
They would want all these dead 
people that they love to be 

1416
01:11:19,200 --> 01:11:21,320
brought back also. 
But that's not happening. 

1417
01:11:22,080 --> 01:11:23,880
And we get a sense of this. 
It's very sad. 

1418
01:11:23,880 --> 01:11:28,400
Arya asks Thoros when Thoros had
that line that Arya, that Arya 

1419
01:11:28,560 --> 01:11:33,520
that Arya read earlier. 
It comes after Arya asks, can 

1420
01:11:33,520 --> 01:11:36,040
you bring someone back who's 
lost their head? 

1421
01:11:36,040 --> 01:11:39,200
Only the one time, not 6. 
Of course she's talking about 

1422
01:11:39,200 --> 01:11:40,280
Ned. 
She's talking about bringing her

1423
01:11:40,280 --> 01:11:42,080
father back. 
He doesn't give her a straight 

1424
01:11:42,080 --> 01:11:45,600
answer. 
He's like, well, I don't have 

1425
01:11:45,600 --> 01:11:46,720
magic. 
I didn't do it. 

1426
01:11:46,760 --> 01:11:51,400
It was Rellore who did it. 
And so, yeah, it's like he 

1427
01:11:51,400 --> 01:11:55,240
dodged the question almost. 
And and you read that passage, 

1428
01:11:55,240 --> 01:11:58,600
Aria is like, all I hear is like
in her mind, she just hears no, 

1429
01:11:58,920 --> 01:12:00,560
he doesn't say no, but that's 
what she hears. 

1430
01:12:00,560 --> 01:12:02,600
And and I mean, he is saying no,
kind of. 

1431
01:12:03,560 --> 01:12:05,120
I have a side question here 
while we're talking about 

1432
01:12:05,120 --> 01:12:07,600
Relore. 
I don't know where it belongs, 

1433
01:12:07,600 --> 01:12:11,160
but it's it's it fits in with 
this general concept of master 

1434
01:12:11,160 --> 01:12:14,480
slave relationships and whether 
that's what's happening when the

1435
01:12:14,480 --> 01:12:17,560
others raise the dead. 
Are they enslaving the dead? 

1436
01:12:17,560 --> 01:12:21,040
Or is that just dead flesh that 
has no agency and it may as well

1437
01:12:21,040 --> 01:12:25,560
just be a pile of stones or a a 
tree, You know, Well, a tree is 

1438
01:12:25,560 --> 01:12:28,400
alive, but you get the point. 
Which is it? 

1439
01:12:28,400 --> 01:12:33,840
Or is it something else? 
And compare that to Melisandre 

1440
01:12:33,840 --> 01:12:36,320
enslaving Mance Raider with the 
Ruby bracelet. 

1441
01:12:37,160 --> 01:12:39,960
Similar concept. 
Because it's like, well he chose

1442
01:12:39,960 --> 01:12:41,680
to do this woman. 
He didn't really choose. 

1443
01:12:41,680 --> 01:12:45,120
It was a choice between wear the
bracelet and be enslaved or 

1444
01:12:45,120 --> 01:12:47,360
burned to death. 
What kind of choice is that? 

1445
01:12:47,880 --> 01:12:50,200
That's like signing a contract 
at sort point. 

1446
01:12:50,200 --> 01:12:53,480
Is that valid? 
I mean, not really. 

1447
01:12:54,040 --> 01:12:57,160
So is that worse than being 
enslaved by the others? 

1448
01:12:57,800 --> 01:13:01,320
Interesting moral question. 
It probably isn't worse because 

1449
01:13:01,320 --> 01:13:04,520
there is probably an intent to 
release Mance at some point. 

1450
01:13:04,520 --> 01:13:06,320
Like Mance has to earn his way 
into the new Kingdom. 

1451
01:13:06,320 --> 01:13:10,800
Like if you do your do these 
things for Stannis, you you'll 

1452
01:13:10,800 --> 01:13:15,040
be able to earn forgiveness or 
mercy or something like that. 

1453
01:13:15,480 --> 01:13:17,720
Even though Stannis isn't big on
such things and Stannis probably

1454
01:13:17,720 --> 01:13:20,400
won't be around. 
But the idea is the intent is 

1455
01:13:20,400 --> 01:13:22,440
again big on intent in this 
episode. 

1456
01:13:23,040 --> 01:13:25,840
They if Mance does a good job, 
they're probably will release 

1457
01:13:25,840 --> 01:13:27,800
him. 
So that is different. 

1458
01:13:27,880 --> 01:13:28,800
That is different. 
So. 

1459
01:13:29,160 --> 01:13:30,400
But still, it's a moral 
conundrum. 

1460
01:13:30,400 --> 01:13:32,800
Like, well, slavery is slavery, 
right? 

1461
01:13:32,800 --> 01:13:36,320
Like, yeah, you can treating 
your slaves nicer. 

1462
01:13:36,800 --> 01:13:39,400
It's still slavery. 
Maybe it's slightly better, but 

1463
01:13:39,400 --> 01:13:42,040
it's still way below the bar of 
acceptable behavior. 

1464
01:13:42,040 --> 01:13:43,600
Right. 
Yeah. 

1465
01:13:44,320 --> 01:13:46,480
Also, is this even a power over 
lore? 

1466
01:13:46,480 --> 01:13:47,800
This has nothing to do with 
necromancy. 

1467
01:13:47,800 --> 01:13:51,920
Just a side question I have, 
because the Ruby enslavement 

1468
01:13:51,920 --> 01:13:55,440
thing that Melisandre is doing, 
we don't see it anywhere else. 

1469
01:13:55,920 --> 01:13:57,920
And I don't mean the enslavement
thing, I mean the rubies. 

1470
01:13:58,080 --> 01:14:00,760
No other red priest that we've 
seen wears rubies. 

1471
01:14:01,080 --> 01:14:04,080
So this might be some other 
magic that she's using that's 

1472
01:14:04,080 --> 01:14:07,480
separate from relore or just 
something she discovered on her 

1473
01:14:07,480 --> 01:14:08,360
own. 
I don't know, but it's a 

1474
01:14:08,360 --> 01:14:13,560
curiosity for sure. 
Carl Karsnark says neck romantic

1475
01:14:13,560 --> 01:14:15,840
is the least romantic of all the
romantics. 

1476
01:14:15,840 --> 01:14:17,760
That's right. 
Very true. 

1477
01:14:18,760 --> 01:14:20,680
Take out the neck and it's 
romantic. 

1478
01:14:22,120 --> 01:14:24,120
We did have we have a patron 
that had that name for a little 

1479
01:14:24,120 --> 01:14:25,680
while. 
A neck romancer. 

1480
01:14:25,800 --> 01:14:28,560
That's a vampire, right? 
A neck romancer is a vampire or 

1481
01:14:28,560 --> 01:14:30,680
a teenager or a teenage vampire.
Yeah. 

1482
01:14:30,760 --> 01:14:33,560
And it's all those things. 
It's funny when teenagers and 

1483
01:14:33,560 --> 01:14:36,720
vampires come together. 
Not not that kind of coming. 

1484
01:14:37,280 --> 01:14:39,680
Dirty minds y'all OK now? 
I was right there with you, 

1485
01:14:40,160 --> 01:14:41,240
Kirstie. 
Angel says. 

1486
01:14:41,240 --> 01:14:44,000
I think Doran with the last two 
letters placed at the front 

1487
01:14:44,000 --> 01:14:46,840
spelling Endor is a play on the 
necromancer witch of Endor. 

1488
01:14:47,120 --> 01:14:49,760
That's funny. 
Yeah, because Nymeria is a 

1489
01:14:49,760 --> 01:14:52,240
witch. 
Queen of Dorne, necromancer 

1490
01:14:52,240 --> 01:14:53,480
witch. 
That's cool. 

1491
01:14:53,480 --> 01:14:54,800
Right on Dorn. 
And or. 

1492
01:14:54,800 --> 01:14:57,240
Yeah, that's cool. 
It's an anagram that might be 

1493
01:14:57,240 --> 01:14:59,360
one of those where George didn't
even realize he was doing it, 

1494
01:15:00,320 --> 01:15:02,880
because he does that. 
We've discovered through our 

1495
01:15:02,880 --> 01:15:04,440
interview with him that 
sometimes he just does these 

1496
01:15:04,440 --> 01:15:08,000
things sub subconsciously. 
And it's not it's not an 

1497
01:15:08,000 --> 01:15:10,160
intentional thing that he's 
doing, but it still works out 

1498
01:15:10,160 --> 01:15:11,120
that way. 
That's cool. 

1499
01:15:11,920 --> 01:15:13,000
Good catch. 
Kirstie Angel. 

1500
01:15:13,000 --> 01:15:15,560
I like that Dornish Dame says 
the distinction for me between 

1501
01:15:15,560 --> 01:15:18,360
Lady Stoneheart and John is that
Lady Stoneheart died and then 

1502
01:15:18,360 --> 01:15:20,440
rose. 
There was a gap with John, I 

1503
01:15:20,440 --> 01:15:22,920
think his consciousness 
continues in ghost and so 

1504
01:15:22,920 --> 01:15:24,160
there's a through line to the 
other side. 

1505
01:15:24,160 --> 01:15:27,400
That's a good point. 
That leaves out the possibility 

1506
01:15:27,400 --> 01:15:30,640
that just his brain is going to 
decay and maybe things don't 

1507
01:15:30,640 --> 01:15:33,720
work as well because of medical 
reasons. 

1508
01:15:34,760 --> 01:15:38,560
The cold might help with that. 
But I'm not arguing though. 

1509
01:15:38,560 --> 01:15:41,040
I think it's a great point. 
Like his his conscious, his soul

1510
01:15:41,040 --> 01:15:43,880
will not be interrupted. 
It's it's the the body though 

1511
01:15:43,880 --> 01:15:46,080
might be a problem. 
Well, certainly you're right. 

1512
01:15:46,080 --> 01:15:51,720
Cold preserves water rots like 
Catlin had the worst 

1513
01:15:51,720 --> 01:15:54,920
circumstances for her body right
like she was in a river that's. 

1514
01:15:54,920 --> 01:15:56,760
A very good point. 
It's not just how John's 

1515
01:15:56,760 --> 01:15:58,640
preserves this. 
Catlin's is really bad. 

1516
01:15:58,640 --> 01:16:00,160
Like her. 
Her scenario was off. 

1517
01:16:00,160 --> 01:16:03,200
You can see why. 
Thoris was like, no, I'm not 

1518
01:16:03,200 --> 01:16:04,600
bringing her back. 
Are you kidding me? 

1519
01:16:05,000 --> 01:16:07,760
That's awful. 
Like, why did you bring me back?

1520
01:16:07,760 --> 01:16:11,120
I'm in such pain. 
Guilty Undertaker says 3 days 

1521
01:16:11,120 --> 01:16:12,000
dead. 
Like, Jesus. 

1522
01:16:12,040 --> 01:16:13,800
Oh, yeah. 
Catlin was three days dead. 

1523
01:16:13,800 --> 01:16:16,120
I never caught that. 
That's similar. 

1524
01:16:16,120 --> 01:16:17,760
Catlin. 
You heard it here first. 

1525
01:16:18,720 --> 01:16:22,080
Caitlin is Jesus guilty 
Undertaker good name for this 

1526
01:16:22,080 --> 01:16:25,400
topic. 
Are you a necromancy? 

1527
01:16:25,400 --> 01:16:28,240
Is that why you're guilty? 
Jordan's name also says. 

1528
01:16:28,240 --> 01:16:30,600
Have always wondered if John 
will rise on the third day as 

1529
01:16:30,600 --> 01:16:32,920
well because of that comparison 
would also be an interesting 

1530
01:16:32,920 --> 01:16:34,320
contrast to Caitlin and Lady 
Stoneheart. 

1531
01:16:34,320 --> 01:16:38,000
Them those two John and Caitlin 
with their opposing 

1532
01:16:38,560 --> 01:16:40,640
personalities in some ways. 
Well, really just her. 

1533
01:16:40,640 --> 01:16:42,920
He's not really against her. 
But yeah, it would be a neat 

1534
01:16:42,920 --> 01:16:44,480
little coincidence if three 
days. 

1535
01:16:44,480 --> 01:16:47,920
That's just the time it takes in
Westeros, the standard. 

1536
01:16:48,680 --> 01:16:50,920
Appreciate the, the comments 
y'all. 

1537
01:16:50,920 --> 01:16:54,600
I always really love to hear 
feedback from you guys and we've

1538
01:16:54,600 --> 01:16:59,080
been doing this a long time and 
it never ceases to be important 

1539
01:16:59,080 --> 01:17:01,520
for us to hear from you all and 
for us to get your support. 

1540
01:17:01,520 --> 01:17:04,560
This is it's vital. 
I mean, we can't do this without

1541
01:17:04,560 --> 01:17:05,880
you guys. 
It's like, who? 

1542
01:17:05,880 --> 01:17:07,240
What's a podcast without an 
audience? 

1543
01:17:07,240 --> 01:17:09,240
Like we're just talking to 
ourselves about a Song of Ice 

1544
01:17:09,240 --> 01:17:10,640
and Fire. 
Why would we bother to record 

1545
01:17:10,640 --> 01:17:12,440
that? 
Why would we put it on video? 

1546
01:17:13,160 --> 01:17:15,800
So we do really appreciate that 
I, I don't say it enough, or 

1547
01:17:15,800 --> 01:17:18,160
maybe I do, but I don't think I 
do. 

1548
01:17:18,520 --> 01:17:22,200
I like to be appreciative. 
I think that's a good energy to 

1549
01:17:22,200 --> 01:17:26,680
put out there into the world. 
And you all can do the same by 

1550
01:17:26,680 --> 01:17:28,480
supporting us on Patreon. 
If you'd like, you can also just

1551
01:17:28,480 --> 01:17:30,000
leave us a review or tell your 
friends. 

1552
01:17:30,000 --> 01:17:32,240
You know, support can come in 
many different ways, but if you 

1553
01:17:32,240 --> 01:17:35,120
do want to offer financial 
support, that's the best way to 

1554
01:17:35,120 --> 01:17:37,280
do it. patreon.com/history 
Westeros. 

1555
01:17:37,280 --> 01:17:39,800
You can also sign up on Spotify.
If you listen on Spotify, 

1556
01:17:39,800 --> 01:17:42,400
there'll be a link in the 
description to any episode and 

1557
01:17:42,400 --> 01:17:44,120
you can follow us directly on 
Spotify as well. 

1558
01:17:44,600 --> 01:17:46,520
Two ways to sign up or from our 
website. 

1559
01:17:46,520 --> 01:17:47,840
There's a variety of ways to 
support. 

1560
01:17:48,080 --> 01:17:50,560
We really do rely on that. 
Most of our income comes from 

1561
01:17:50,560 --> 01:17:53,120
y'all. 
We do get sponsors, we get some 

1562
01:17:53,120 --> 01:17:55,480
money from Spotify here and 
there, but the majority of our 

1563
01:17:55,480 --> 01:17:57,960
income is is Patreon. 
So that's really important. 

1564
01:17:58,400 --> 01:18:01,440
So yeah, once again, 
patreon.com/history Westeros, we

1565
01:18:01,440 --> 01:18:03,480
hope you decide to sign up. 
Take advantage of all the 

1566
01:18:03,480 --> 01:18:05,480
benefits. 
We got bonus episodes, quite a 

1567
01:18:05,480 --> 01:18:08,400
few now, too many for me to 
list, and lots of things to 

1568
01:18:08,400 --> 01:18:12,600
participate in like voting and 
getting advance notice on 

1569
01:18:12,760 --> 01:18:15,280
schedules and things that we're 
doing like trips that were going

1570
01:18:15,280 --> 01:18:18,600
on, conventions, etcetera. 
Lots of insider information 

1571
01:18:18,600 --> 01:18:21,520
apart from the apart from the 
bonus episodes. 

1572
01:18:22,200 --> 01:18:25,320
So yeah, we hope to see you over
on patreon.com/history of 

1573
01:18:25,320 --> 01:18:27,080
Westeros. 
I hope to see you on 

1574
01:18:27,080 --> 01:18:30,080
patreon.com, but I also want to 
say Aziz is not wrong that 

1575
01:18:30,160 --> 01:18:33,240
leaving us a review is also very
valuable. 

1576
01:18:33,640 --> 01:18:36,880
And so if you have the 
inclination, not the money, but 

1577
01:18:36,880 --> 01:18:40,280
you have the time and just write
us a a positive review, yeah. 

1578
01:18:41,800 --> 01:18:45,520
The way I like to do it, we 
support 5 to 8 to 10 podcasts at

1579
01:18:45,520 --> 01:18:48,040
any given time, and it's the 
ones that I listen to the most. 

1580
01:18:48,040 --> 01:18:51,200
If I find myself my top three to
four or five podcasts, if I, 

1581
01:18:51,640 --> 01:18:53,440
those are the ones I I support 
on Patreon. 

1582
01:18:53,920 --> 01:18:56,440
So that's how I do it. 
You know, your mileage may vary,

1583
01:18:56,440 --> 01:18:57,440
but I think it's a good way to 
do it. 

1584
01:19:00,120 --> 01:19:04,560
Let's talk about the Drown God. 
The very conception of the 

1585
01:19:04,560 --> 01:19:06,920
drowned God is somewhat undead 
in nature. 

1586
01:19:06,920 --> 01:19:09,080
Is a God that drowned? 
That sounds dead. 

1587
01:19:09,080 --> 01:19:12,640
Now death works differently for 
deities, right? 

1588
01:19:12,640 --> 01:19:16,600
They aren't bound by the same 
laws of life and death. 

1589
01:19:17,040 --> 01:19:21,160
But drowning would change you if
it if you lived through it. 

1590
01:19:22,360 --> 01:19:26,400
Let's get a nice example from 
our Drowned Priest POV court. 

1591
01:19:26,720 --> 01:19:31,480
His drowned men formed a circle 
around the dead boy, praying. 

1592
01:19:32,160 --> 01:19:37,200
Norigen worked his arms whilst 
Russ knelt astride him, pumping 

1593
01:19:37,200 --> 01:19:40,680
on his chest. 
But all moved aside for Aaron. 

1594
01:19:41,040 --> 01:19:46,000
He pried apart the boy's cold 
lips with his fingers and gave 

1595
01:19:46,000 --> 01:19:51,080
Emmend the kiss of life. 
And again and again, until the 

1596
01:19:51,080 --> 01:19:56,360
sea came gushing from his mouth.
The boy began to cough and spit 

1597
01:19:56,680 --> 01:19:59,480
and his eyes blinked open, full 
of fear. 

1598
01:20:00,040 --> 01:20:03,800
Another one returned. 
It was a sign of the drowned 

1599
01:20:03,800 --> 01:20:08,200
God's favour, men said. 
Every other priest lost a man 

1600
01:20:08,200 --> 01:20:12,600
from time to time, even Tarl the
thrice drowned, who had once 

1601
01:20:12,600 --> 01:20:16,160
been thought so holy that he was
picked to crown a king. 

1602
01:20:16,640 --> 01:20:21,680
But never ere on Greyjoy he was 
the damp hare who had seen the 

1603
01:20:21,680 --> 01:20:25,200
God's own watery halls and 
returned to tell of it. 

1604
01:20:25,720 --> 01:20:30,040
Rise, he told the sputtering boy
as he slapped him on his naked 

1605
01:20:30,040 --> 01:20:32,360
back. 
You have drowned and been 

1606
01:20:32,360 --> 01:20:35,600
returned to us. 
What is dead can never die. 

1607
01:20:35,920 --> 01:20:40,400
We've been long calling this 
CPR, not magic, but there's 

1608
01:20:40,400 --> 01:20:43,200
obviously real risk given 
Aaron's thoughts on the 

1609
01:20:43,200 --> 01:20:46,320
occasional failure. 
Some do die because of this. 

1610
01:20:46,320 --> 01:20:48,680
Not him, of course. 
Aaron would never allow someone 

1611
01:20:48,680 --> 01:20:51,840
to die because he's too holy. 
But other priests though? 

1612
01:20:51,840 --> 01:20:54,800
That happens with them. 
So ironically, those are the 

1613
01:20:54,800 --> 01:20:58,120
ones who actually died during 
this, the ones who don't come 

1614
01:20:58,120 --> 01:21:00,960
back from the drowning ceremony 
or everyone else. 

1615
01:21:01,240 --> 01:21:03,080
They say they're dead and come 
back. 

1616
01:21:03,200 --> 01:21:04,680
But that's kind of semantics, 
isn't it? 

1617
01:21:04,680 --> 01:21:07,240
We already kind of discussed 
this like, are they dead because

1618
01:21:07,240 --> 01:21:10,800
they've stopped breathing? 
But there's still enough like 

1619
01:21:11,160 --> 01:21:13,680
they're still like electrical 
impulses. 

1620
01:21:13,680 --> 01:21:15,040
They're. 
Not brain dead. 

1621
01:21:15,040 --> 01:21:16,840
They're not brain dead, that's 
the right term. 

1622
01:21:16,840 --> 01:21:20,840
And so you can still stimulate 
their organs to start working 

1623
01:21:20,840 --> 01:21:22,160
again. 
And that's what they're doing 

1624
01:21:22,160 --> 01:21:23,920
with the CPR. 
You get the lungs working, you 

1625
01:21:23,920 --> 01:21:26,920
get the water expunged, and the 
body comes back on. 

1626
01:21:27,120 --> 01:21:30,560
But of course, three days later,
that wouldn't work, right? 

1627
01:21:31,120 --> 01:21:34,680
So he believes all this 
sincerely. 

1628
01:21:35,000 --> 01:21:37,400
And he's been to the drowned 
God's watery halls, which is 

1629
01:21:37,440 --> 01:21:39,320
probably best called a near 
death experience. 

1630
01:21:39,800 --> 01:21:43,480
It doesn't preclude the 
supernatural in this world, but 

1631
01:21:43,480 --> 01:21:48,640
it might very well be completely
just what he imagined while he 

1632
01:21:48,640 --> 01:21:51,560
was in that dream state. 
But it's also part of why he 

1633
01:21:51,560 --> 01:21:53,760
believes he's more powerful. 
Though he's been to the Drown 

1634
01:21:53,760 --> 01:21:57,360
God's watery halls in his mind, 
maybe he really did go either 

1635
01:21:57,360 --> 01:21:59,800
way. 
He sincerely believes that makes

1636
01:21:59,800 --> 01:22:03,720
him more holy and is why he's 
able to bring so many back. 

1637
01:22:03,840 --> 01:22:06,400
He believes he's a very 
successful necromancy 

1638
01:22:06,400 --> 01:22:10,360
necromancer, but he of course 
doesn't use that word. 

1639
01:22:10,360 --> 01:22:11,800
It's a religious thing. 
It's not. 

1640
01:22:11,880 --> 01:22:13,680
There's no Mansi in it. 
That sounds magical. 

1641
01:22:13,680 --> 01:22:15,200
There's no magic here in his 
mind. 

1642
01:22:15,200 --> 01:22:16,960
It's, it's very much like 
relore. 

1643
01:22:16,960 --> 01:22:20,640
They even use the exact same 
phrase, Kiss of life. 

1644
01:22:22,200 --> 01:22:25,320
Instead of breathing fire into 
their lungs, they, well, they're

1645
01:22:25,320 --> 01:22:27,160
actually breathing air. 
The water's already there. 

1646
01:22:27,160 --> 01:22:30,360
They they get dunked, then the 
water goes in your lungs and 

1647
01:22:30,360 --> 01:22:32,840
then the drowned priest pumps it
out of you. 

1648
01:22:33,800 --> 01:22:39,000
So yeah, there's already such a 
disassociation of death within 

1649
01:22:39,000 --> 01:22:41,080
the Drowned God's rituals. 
It's it's kind of neat, like 

1650
01:22:41,080 --> 01:22:43,680
necromancy in this world with 
the Iron Isles. 

1651
01:22:43,680 --> 01:22:46,360
It fits so well because there's 
they're already such beings of 

1652
01:22:46,360 --> 01:22:47,880
death. 
They already flirt with death. 

1653
01:22:47,880 --> 01:22:50,760
It's part of their belief system
so deeply. 

1654
01:22:51,120 --> 01:22:54,520
What is dead may never die, but 
rises again harder and stronger.

1655
01:22:55,120 --> 01:23:01,400
That's baptism combined with 
death and resurrection, right? 

1656
01:23:02,200 --> 01:23:05,200
The Drowned God is a necromancer
or a lich. 

1657
01:23:05,200 --> 01:23:07,840
Maybe a lich is a better term 
because he's using magic and 

1658
01:23:08,200 --> 01:23:10,640
eternal life and bringing other 
people back from life. 

1659
01:23:10,640 --> 01:23:15,160
Yeah, or or maybe it's his pre 
sitter, the necromancer, since 

1660
01:23:15,440 --> 01:23:21,640
since it's Aaron who does the 
CPRCPRO man see breath O man see

1661
01:23:21,960 --> 01:23:25,880
a great example of George 
finding another way to explore 

1662
01:23:25,880 --> 01:23:28,120
this concept on the margins, the
idea of life and death. 

1663
01:23:28,120 --> 01:23:31,240
Well, what when do you die? 
What is death? 

1664
01:23:31,240 --> 01:23:34,120
What is brain death? 
What does that look like in a 

1665
01:23:34,400 --> 01:23:36,600
low science environment where 
they don't even have the concept

1666
01:23:36,600 --> 01:23:38,520
of brain dead. 
They don't know what that means,

1667
01:23:38,760 --> 01:23:41,600
but the concept is is for us, 
for people in in the modern 

1668
01:23:41,600 --> 01:23:44,080
world that have a basic 
understanding of science. 

1669
01:23:44,440 --> 01:23:47,360
They don't. 
They think their deities are 

1670
01:23:47,360 --> 01:23:48,840
already dead. 
That's what the Drowned God, 

1671
01:23:48,840 --> 01:23:51,520
that's what that phrase means. 
What is dead may never die. 

1672
01:23:51,520 --> 01:23:53,720
If you're already dead, you 
can't die. 

1673
01:23:54,440 --> 01:23:58,520
They kind of think of themselves
as an entirely dead race. 

1674
01:23:58,520 --> 01:24:02,000
All the Ironborn are dead under 
their belief system, plus their 

1675
01:24:02,000 --> 01:24:05,040
God. 
Yes, it's a very necromantic 

1676
01:24:05,040 --> 01:24:08,040
environment, even though they 
don't use that word. 

1677
01:24:08,400 --> 01:24:10,800
There's actually a little bit of
talk of reincarnation on the 

1678
01:24:10,800 --> 01:24:12,120
Iron Isles, but that's a 
different story. 

1679
01:24:12,120 --> 01:24:13,600
We'll, we'll save that for some 
other time. 

1680
01:24:13,840 --> 01:24:16,600
It's related to skin changing 
sort of. 

1681
01:24:16,960 --> 01:24:19,520
Now a lot of Ironborn culture is
of course inspired by Norse 

1682
01:24:19,520 --> 01:24:22,600
myths, which has plenty to say 
on life, death, afterlife, and 

1683
01:24:22,600 --> 01:24:24,600
rebirth. 
Well, like like all myth cycles 

1684
01:24:24,600 --> 01:24:27,400
do really. 
But some of these things are 

1685
01:24:27,400 --> 01:24:31,560
distinctly Norse, right? 
Like the goddess Hell is said to

1686
01:24:31,560 --> 01:24:36,200
be half alive and half dead, 
which is that's kind of fits 

1687
01:24:36,200 --> 01:24:38,640
with with a lot of how we 
perceive the Ironborn and their 

1688
01:24:38,640 --> 01:24:41,640
drownings and all that. 
One thing George did though is 

1689
01:24:41,640 --> 01:24:45,960
he flipped the monotheism, 
polytheism, add aspects of it. 

1690
01:24:46,160 --> 01:24:49,640
Norse myth of course is a 
polytheistic religion, but he 

1691
01:24:49,640 --> 01:24:52,400
made the drown God storm God, a 
monotheistic or dualistic 

1692
01:24:52,400 --> 01:24:56,640
religion, 2 warring gods. 
So it kind of flipped it by the 

1693
01:24:56,640 --> 01:24:58,960
seven, right? 
Like the Christianity based 

1694
01:24:58,960 --> 01:25:01,320
religion is sort of has a 
pantheon, although they're 

1695
01:25:01,320 --> 01:25:05,800
really aspects of one God. 
And the Norse based religion is 

1696
01:25:05,800 --> 01:25:08,080
instead of polytheism, it's 
becomes one God. 

1697
01:25:08,080 --> 01:25:09,640
So that's kind of the ways you 
change it. 

1698
01:25:09,880 --> 01:25:13,600
But to get back to the focus 
here, the idea that George is 

1699
01:25:14,080 --> 01:25:17,800
playing with notions of life and
death within while toying with 

1700
01:25:17,800 --> 01:25:19,560
the idea of necromancer is a 
really clever thing. 

1701
01:25:19,560 --> 01:25:22,520
I think it's it's it's right up 
there with with the way Thoros 

1702
01:25:22,520 --> 01:25:25,240
perceives it and some of these 
other things that are just 

1703
01:25:25,240 --> 01:25:28,080
really create a lot of conflict 
for the characters, or at least 

1704
01:25:28,080 --> 01:25:32,640
for the world. 
Here's a guy that probably 

1705
01:25:32,640 --> 01:25:34,640
didn't have much conflict was 
probably all about it. 

1706
01:25:34,640 --> 01:25:36,400
And he's like, yeah, this is 
power. 

1707
01:25:36,400 --> 01:25:38,160
I'm using it. 
This section is called the 

1708
01:25:38,160 --> 01:25:41,040
Reaving necromancer. 
It's a particularly fun and 

1709
01:25:41,040 --> 01:25:44,480
terrifying example set amongst 
several other nearly as cool 

1710
01:25:44,480 --> 01:25:46,120
sounding examples. 
Quote. 

1711
01:25:46,800 --> 01:25:50,440
Many legends have come down to 
us through the millennia of the 

1712
01:25:50,440 --> 01:25:54,400
salt Kings and reavers who made 
the Sunset Sea their own. 

1713
01:25:54,720 --> 01:25:58,640
Man is wild and cruel and 
fearless as any who have ever 

1714
01:25:58,640 --> 01:26:01,560
lived. 
Thus we hear of the likes of 

1715
01:26:01,560 --> 01:26:05,920
Torgon the Terrible, You're All 
the Whale, Dagon Drum, the 

1716
01:26:05,920 --> 01:26:10,960
necromancer, Rothgar Pike and 
his Kraken, Summoning Horn, and 

1717
01:26:10,960 --> 01:26:14,160
Ragged Ralph of Old Wick. 
Kind of feels like Ragged Ralph 

1718
01:26:14,160 --> 01:26:16,120
got the short end of the 
nickname Stick there or the 

1719
01:26:16,120 --> 01:26:17,400
stick name. 
Yeah, yeah. 

1720
01:26:17,400 --> 01:26:19,320
It's kind of like kind of 
reminds me of Wreck it Ralph, 

1721
01:26:19,320 --> 01:26:21,800
which, I mean, he's awesome, but
he's not terrifying. 

1722
01:26:23,320 --> 01:26:24,680
So. 
And yet another mention of the 

1723
01:26:24,680 --> 01:26:28,000
Kraken summoning horn, something
I wish I had even though I live 

1724
01:26:28,000 --> 01:26:30,120
nowhere near the sea, which, 
hey, that's that's how I know 

1725
01:26:30,120 --> 01:26:32,200
there'd be no consequences for 
me. 

1726
01:26:34,040 --> 01:26:37,120
Dagon Drum, though, is the one 
we care about today on that 

1727
01:26:37,120 --> 01:26:39,520
list. 
And look at this picture of him.

1728
01:26:39,520 --> 01:26:45,320
Does that look familiar? 
Picture Dagon drum and picture 

1729
01:26:45,320 --> 01:26:48,040
Sean Pink. 
Oh look at that, it's the same 

1730
01:26:48,040 --> 01:26:49,600
guy. 
That's right, you heard it here 

1731
01:26:49,600 --> 01:26:52,720
first, y'all? 
Sean Pink lived in the age of 

1732
01:26:52,720 --> 01:26:58,440
heroes and he was a necromancer.
Dagon is a Lovecraft reference. 

1733
01:26:58,440 --> 01:27:02,520
In this case, Dagon was also a 
ancient Syrian deity, but George

1734
01:27:02,520 --> 01:27:03,880
doesn't seem to be borrowing 
from that. 

1735
01:27:03,880 --> 01:27:08,240
He seems to be borrowing from HP
Lovecraft because Dagan, the 

1736
01:27:08,240 --> 01:27:10,920
story Dagan written by HP 
Lovecraft, is the first 

1737
01:27:10,920 --> 01:27:14,640
appearance of the Deep Ones, 
those undersea dwelling, 

1738
01:27:14,640 --> 01:27:19,960
ancient, terrifying race that 
impregnate humans who create, 

1739
01:27:19,960 --> 01:27:22,840
Yeah, who make half human 
hybrids that start off as human 

1740
01:27:22,840 --> 01:27:25,160
that slowly grow into Deep Ones 
and return to the sea. 

1741
01:27:26,160 --> 01:27:29,360
So that is more along the lines 
of what we're dealing with here.

1742
01:27:29,360 --> 01:27:32,680
Certainly there's lots of HP 
Lovecraft influence all over the

1743
01:27:32,760 --> 01:27:35,000
Iron Islands, more on him in a 
bit. 

1744
01:27:35,000 --> 01:27:37,320
He's part of the influence here,
but let's stick with House Drum 

1745
01:27:37,320 --> 01:27:40,560
and Dagan Drum for a minute. 
They come from old WIC the 

1746
01:27:40,560 --> 01:27:44,760
drums, which is the holiest of 
the Iron Isles and the first one

1747
01:27:44,760 --> 01:27:47,560
to be populated by First Men, 
which may have something to do 

1748
01:27:47,560 --> 01:27:50,200
with why it's associated with 
such an ancient form of magic, 

1749
01:27:50,200 --> 01:27:53,640
at least in this one case. 
Because as you'll see throughout

1750
01:27:53,640 --> 01:27:56,640
the rest of this episode, there 
are quite a few other examples 

1751
01:27:56,640 --> 01:27:59,560
of necromancy throughout 
history, and a lot of them are 

1752
01:27:59,560 --> 01:28:03,400
not only in really ancient 
Westeros, but a lot of them are 

1753
01:28:03,400 --> 01:28:05,720
towards the West. 
Curiously enough. 

1754
01:28:06,280 --> 01:28:08,920
Now House Drum has a Valyrian 
steel blade called Red Rain. 

1755
01:28:09,280 --> 01:28:12,240
It was one for their house by a 
man named Hilmar the Cunning, 

1756
01:28:12,800 --> 01:28:14,720
but they didn't have it back in 
this time. 

1757
01:28:14,720 --> 01:28:16,920
It would have been really cool 
for Dagendrum to be a necromance

1758
01:28:16,920 --> 01:28:20,600
or wielding of Valyrian steel 
blade, but Valyrian steel didn't

1759
01:28:20,600 --> 01:28:23,280
even exist back then, let alone 
exist in Westeros. 

1760
01:28:23,400 --> 01:28:24,960
Valyria didn't even exist back 
then. 

1761
01:28:24,960 --> 01:28:29,040
So yeah, now we don't know the 
words of House Drum, but we have

1762
01:28:29,040 --> 01:28:31,520
their sigil. 
It's a skeletal hand on Red. 

1763
01:28:32,160 --> 01:28:35,080
That's fairly fitting for the 
necromancer idea, isn't it? 

1764
01:28:35,120 --> 01:28:37,320
So let's let's imagine how this 
would have worked. 

1765
01:28:37,840 --> 01:28:41,680
Dagen Drum had a rather novel 
way of taking thralls, I 

1766
01:28:41,680 --> 01:28:44,240
suppose. 
He could capture living people, 

1767
01:28:44,240 --> 01:28:47,840
of course, the standard Ironborn
way of taking thralls, like a 

1768
01:28:47,840 --> 01:28:50,960
proper Ironborn reaver would. 
But this guy apparently could 

1769
01:28:50,960 --> 01:28:54,440
also raise the dead and make 
them thralls that way as well. 

1770
01:28:54,480 --> 01:28:56,720
It's rather fitting, to be 
honest. 

1771
01:28:56,720 --> 01:29:00,760
I mean Ironborn killing, you 
know you get to take thralls 

1772
01:29:00,800 --> 01:29:02,680
either way. 
This is very much the Ironborn 

1773
01:29:02,680 --> 01:29:05,440
way. 
It's did you did you kill that 

1774
01:29:05,440 --> 01:29:08,680
thrall yourself? 
Did you pay the iron price for 

1775
01:29:08,680 --> 01:29:11,360
that dead body? 
You can't raise the dead bodies 

1776
01:29:11,360 --> 01:29:12,960
of people some someone else 
killed. 

1777
01:29:13,360 --> 01:29:15,600
That's that's not a proper 
Ironborn necromancer. 

1778
01:29:16,320 --> 01:29:19,480
Is he an example of someone that
when he died all his thralls 

1779
01:29:19,480 --> 01:29:21,720
drop dead too well became 
lifeless. 

1780
01:29:21,720 --> 01:29:23,880
I don't know if drop dead is the
right phrase but stopped 

1781
01:29:23,880 --> 01:29:26,160
working. 
Good question, but I have no 

1782
01:29:26,160 --> 01:29:28,840
idea. 
The being I'm tempted to think 

1783
01:29:28,840 --> 01:29:35,400
of in connection to this guy to 
Dagen Drum is Patch Face, a 

1784
01:29:35,400 --> 01:29:38,520
being that seemed very much 
dead, whose body apparently had 

1785
01:29:38,520 --> 01:29:42,000
all the feel of a corpse to it, 
but somehow by the power of the 

1786
01:29:42,000 --> 01:29:44,800
sea, I don't know, maybe he came
back. 

1787
01:29:45,200 --> 01:29:47,000
Patch Face, of course, is also 
similar to Catlin in that 

1788
01:29:47,000 --> 01:29:50,320
regard, where it's a body that 
was dead for a while before 

1789
01:29:50,320 --> 01:29:52,040
coming back. 
The difference here is though, 

1790
01:29:52,040 --> 01:29:56,000
we have no idea what or who 
brought Patch Face back. 

1791
01:29:56,040 --> 01:29:59,960
I mean arguably we don't really 
know what's bringing the relore 

1792
01:30:00,280 --> 01:30:03,080
powers to work. 
I mean, is that really relore? 

1793
01:30:03,160 --> 01:30:05,680
Or is that are they tapping into
a magical energy that just 

1794
01:30:05,680 --> 01:30:08,840
exists and calling it a God? 
Either way, at least there's a 

1795
01:30:08,840 --> 01:30:10,560
name for it. 
At least they have a face to put

1796
01:30:10,560 --> 01:30:11,280
on it. 
Patch face. 

1797
01:30:11,280 --> 01:30:12,760
We have no idea what the deal 
with him is. 

1798
01:30:12,760 --> 01:30:15,240
Who is the necromancer behind 
this event? 

1799
01:30:16,040 --> 01:30:18,160
Is it a God? 
Is it the Deep ones? 

1800
01:30:18,160 --> 01:30:21,680
Is it just the the magic forces 
of the world that aren't 

1801
01:30:21,680 --> 01:30:24,920
assigned to a specific entity? 
I don't know. 

1802
01:30:25,560 --> 01:30:28,760
So when Melisandre checks out 
Patchface, he's freaky. 

1803
01:30:28,760 --> 01:30:32,600
She's a little scared. 
She sees skulls around him and 

1804
01:30:33,240 --> 01:30:35,440
his lips are bloody. 
It's yeah. 

1805
01:30:35,520 --> 01:30:40,320
So more on that some other time.
Patchface is is outside the the 

1806
01:30:40,320 --> 01:30:43,360
full frame of this episode, but 
had to touch on him at least a 

1807
01:30:43,360 --> 01:30:47,280
little because he's he is the 
undead, or at least worthy of 

1808
01:30:47,280 --> 01:30:49,240
considering as a member of the 
undead. 

1809
01:30:50,120 --> 01:30:53,400
And this example of Dagundrum 
is, is probably the best example

1810
01:30:53,400 --> 01:30:58,280
we have of the prologue, right? 
Meaning we have a being that 

1811
01:30:59,000 --> 01:31:03,160
kills others and raises them and
adds them to their army, 

1812
01:31:03,280 --> 01:31:05,280
presumably. 
I mean, there's only one of him,

1813
01:31:05,280 --> 01:31:08,880
not 7, but he goes into battle, 
kills people and then raises 

1814
01:31:08,880 --> 01:31:10,960
them up. 
That's what the others did in 

1815
01:31:10,960 --> 01:31:12,920
the prologue and afterwards as 
well. 

1816
01:31:13,320 --> 01:31:17,960
So yeah, like, it's curious how 
this ancient example is maybe 

1817
01:31:17,960 --> 01:31:20,320
one of the closest parallels to 
what the others do. 

1818
01:31:22,200 --> 01:31:25,760
Let's look at some fictional 
influences, starting off I just 

1819
01:31:25,920 --> 01:31:30,040
as a fun notation. 
George RR Martin's favorite band

1820
01:31:30,040 --> 01:31:34,480
is the Grateful Dead. 
You know, Warewood is influenced

1821
01:31:34,480 --> 01:31:39,680
by Grateful Dead member Bob 
Ware, and there's lots of other 

1822
01:31:40,000 --> 01:31:44,000
references to the Grateful Dead 
throughout George's work, so 

1823
01:31:44,000 --> 01:31:46,520
that's kind of fun. 
But let's talk about actual 

1824
01:31:46,880 --> 01:31:50,640
literary works. 
Herbert W Reanimator by HP 

1825
01:31:50,640 --> 01:31:52,200
Lovecraft. 
Terrible. 

1826
01:31:52,880 --> 01:31:58,760
A bad story. 
Even Lovecraft hated it, St. 

1827
01:31:58,760 --> 01:32:02,560
Joshi, who is the world's pre 
eminent Lovecraft scholar, says 

1828
01:32:02,560 --> 01:32:05,000
widely regarded as his worst 
piece. 

1829
01:32:05,080 --> 01:32:08,720
So why does it even exist? 
Lovecraft was poor throughout 

1830
01:32:08,720 --> 01:32:10,840
most of his life. 
Throughout all of his life 

1831
01:32:10,840 --> 01:32:12,080
except for when he was really 
young. 

1832
01:32:12,840 --> 01:32:14,200
Throughout his adult life he was
poor. 

1833
01:32:14,200 --> 01:32:16,480
We'll say he got paid pretty 
well for this. 

1834
01:32:16,640 --> 01:32:18,520
So he did it because he's like, 
I need the money. 

1835
01:32:19,360 --> 01:32:22,080
It was written as a parody of 
Frankenstein. 

1836
01:32:22,160 --> 01:32:25,120
Herbert West has a few loose 
parallels to Kyburn. 

1837
01:32:25,640 --> 01:32:29,320
Herbert W is at medical school. 
He gets he gets obsessed with 

1838
01:32:29,320 --> 01:32:32,560
the idea of of life after death 
and bringing death, bringing the

1839
01:32:32,760 --> 01:32:35,400
raising the dead and all this. 
He doesn't get kicked out of 

1840
01:32:35,400 --> 01:32:37,720
school like Kyburn does get 
kicked out of Citadel, but he 

1841
01:32:37,720 --> 01:32:41,000
does get banned from the morgue.
The school morgue or the the 

1842
01:32:41,000 --> 01:32:43,640
cadavers are off limits to him 
because of his experiments. 

1843
01:32:44,000 --> 01:32:48,360
And he also accidentally burns 
the place down West at one 

1844
01:32:48,360 --> 01:32:50,320
point. 
Rushes the body of a champion 

1845
01:32:50,320 --> 01:32:53,040
boxer to his lab in order to 
reanimate him quickly because he

1846
01:32:53,040 --> 01:32:55,080
doesn't want too much 
degradation or decomposition to 

1847
01:32:55,080 --> 01:32:57,360
set in. 
Sounds kind of familiar, doesn't

1848
01:32:57,360 --> 01:32:59,520
it? 
Kyburn rushing the body of a 

1849
01:32:59,800 --> 01:33:02,840
poisoned Gregor Clegane to his 
lab. 

1850
01:33:03,120 --> 01:33:06,200
W gets access to a lot of 
corpses during a plague 

1851
01:33:06,200 --> 01:33:09,000
outbreak. 
He gets a, a windfall of bodies 

1852
01:33:09,000 --> 01:33:12,920
to play with when there's, I 
think it's typhoid strikes. 

1853
01:33:13,400 --> 01:33:15,760
We might get that in A Song of 
Ice and Fire too, if there's 

1854
01:33:15,800 --> 01:33:18,000
some sort of grayscale plague or
anything like that. 

1855
01:33:18,240 --> 01:33:22,920
Then he gets even more access to
bodies because he, Herbert W 

1856
01:33:22,920 --> 01:33:27,200
becomes a combat medic during 
World War One, parallel to 

1857
01:33:27,200 --> 01:33:29,200
Kyburn joining the Brave 
Companions, right? 

1858
01:33:30,640 --> 01:33:34,280
Herbert W becomes friendly with 
his commanding officer, who also

1859
01:33:34,280 --> 01:33:35,640
is obsessed with life after 
death. 

1860
01:33:35,640 --> 01:33:39,080
And eventually his commanding 
officer is is killed, and then 

1861
01:33:39,080 --> 01:33:41,440
he cuts the guy's head off to 
try to preserve it. 

1862
01:33:42,160 --> 01:33:43,600
It's kind of the reverse of 
Gregor, right? 

1863
01:33:44,560 --> 01:33:47,400
Cutting the head off and 
animates the body, but the head 

1864
01:33:47,400 --> 01:33:50,160
on the body of his former 
commanding officer kills him 

1865
01:33:51,040 --> 01:33:53,360
with a body attached to it, 
which might be what happens to 

1866
01:33:53,360 --> 01:33:55,360
Gregor. 
So I'm sorry I said that badly 

1867
01:33:55,920 --> 01:33:56,720
before. 
Let me repeat. 

1868
01:33:56,800 --> 01:33:59,200
Gregor got a same body, new 
head. 

1869
01:33:59,400 --> 01:34:01,960
This guy got same head, new 
body. 

1870
01:34:01,960 --> 01:34:03,240
That's the reverse. 
That's what I meant. 

1871
01:34:03,920 --> 01:34:06,880
And Kyburn's former commander, 
Vargo Haute, famously also lost 

1872
01:34:06,880 --> 01:34:09,480
his head. 
What's so relevant would be HP 

1873
01:34:09,480 --> 01:34:13,600
Lovecraft's Necronomicon, the 
fictional occult book that pops 

1874
01:34:13,600 --> 01:34:14,920
up here and there and some of 
his stories. 

1875
01:34:14,920 --> 01:34:17,400
And then in other authors, other
authors borrowed this and said, 

1876
01:34:17,400 --> 01:34:21,400
hey, let's just do that. 
He was throughout his career, 

1877
01:34:21,600 --> 01:34:24,160
people asked him if the book was
real and if he had written. 

1878
01:34:24,160 --> 01:34:25,480
He's like, no, it's just a 
thing. 

1879
01:34:25,480 --> 01:34:29,840
And he, it's, it means Book of 
the Dead, Necro and Nomicon. 

1880
01:34:30,640 --> 01:34:32,200
Those are, yeah, those are the 2
words. 

1881
01:34:32,280 --> 01:34:34,960
Yeah. 
He, he, he gave the, the smart 

1882
01:34:34,960 --> 01:34:36,720
literary answer. 
He's like, no, I can't write 

1883
01:34:36,720 --> 01:34:38,400
that book. 
It would destroy the mystery. 

1884
01:34:38,400 --> 01:34:41,560
The idea of it is best when 
you're just imagining what might

1885
01:34:41,560 --> 01:34:43,640
be in those pages. 
If I were to write the pages, it

1886
01:34:43,640 --> 01:34:45,280
would be. 
But it's, it's people to this 

1887
01:34:45,280 --> 01:34:48,120
day think it's a real book. 
It's it's not. 

1888
01:34:48,720 --> 01:34:51,760
It does not exist. 
But people have created copies 

1889
01:34:51,760 --> 01:34:55,120
of it to make people think it's 
the Lovecraft one because why 

1890
01:34:55,120 --> 01:34:57,600
not? 
Why not make a buck off of a 

1891
01:34:57,600 --> 01:35:00,440
book that people think exists? 
It would be fun to see an homage

1892
01:35:00,440 --> 01:35:01,800
to the Necronomicon in like the 
Citadel. 

1893
01:35:01,800 --> 01:35:03,960
Let's see, Sam is like looking 
through books and there's the 

1894
01:35:03,960 --> 01:35:05,760
Necronomicon or something like 
that. 

1895
01:35:06,480 --> 01:35:10,320
That is not dead, which can 
eternal lie and with strange 

1896
01:35:10,320 --> 01:35:15,200
eons even death may die is a 
Lovecraft line from the call of 

1897
01:35:15,200 --> 01:35:18,560
Cthulhu, I believe. 
So that's very similar to to 

1898
01:35:18,600 --> 01:35:23,080
what is dead may never die and 
rises harder, rises again harder

1899
01:35:23,080 --> 01:35:25,760
and stronger, right. 
It's also that line is also in 

1900
01:35:25,760 --> 01:35:28,400
the Metallica song, The thing 
that should not be off of their 

1901
01:35:28,400 --> 01:35:31,720
Master of Puppets album. 
Now, Frankenstein by Mary 

1902
01:35:31,720 --> 01:35:33,920
Shelley. 
That's of course, as I just 

1903
01:35:33,920 --> 01:35:37,880
said, Herbert W RE Animator by 
HP Lovecraft was written as a 

1904
01:35:37,880 --> 01:35:40,840
parody of Frankenstein. 
So yeah, again, he didn't even 

1905
01:35:40,840 --> 01:35:42,280
take it seriously. 
He just got paid for it. 

1906
01:35:42,520 --> 01:35:44,880
He liked Frankenstein. 
Of course, he didn't parody it 

1907
01:35:44,880 --> 01:35:46,000
because he didn't think it was 
good. 

1908
01:35:46,000 --> 01:35:48,840
No, he loved it like a lot of 
people back then did. 

1909
01:35:49,400 --> 01:35:52,120
And it was written over 100 
years before Lovecraft's time. 

1910
01:35:52,920 --> 01:35:56,760
It's such an important book 
because it really set the bar 

1911
01:35:56,760 --> 01:36:00,840
for science based things like 
this. 

1912
01:36:00,840 --> 01:36:03,920
Like this was, this is a 
precursor to a lot of sci-fi 

1913
01:36:04,040 --> 01:36:07,360
Frankenstein was. 
And it really flipped the script

1914
01:36:07,360 --> 01:36:14,040
for the dead in novels. 
It Frankenstein's monster is not

1915
01:36:14,040 --> 01:36:18,520
a shambling monster. 
He is a thoughtful, intelligent,

1916
01:36:18,760 --> 01:36:25,040
articulate being that is lonely 
and an outcast and has extreme 

1917
01:36:25,040 --> 01:36:27,480
emotions because of this. 
Like, who wouldn't be? 

1918
01:36:27,480 --> 01:36:30,080
Like he wants to be part of 
society and live and, and learn 

1919
01:36:30,080 --> 01:36:33,200
and love and be like a regular 
person, but can't be. 

1920
01:36:33,600 --> 01:36:36,600
And so he's becomes violent and 
angry and lonely. 

1921
01:36:36,600 --> 01:36:39,440
And so it's, it's a 
psychological tale of gothic 

1922
01:36:39,440 --> 01:36:41,200
horror. 
It's it's definitely gothic 

1923
01:36:41,200 --> 01:36:45,280
horror is the the genre that it 
seems to fit most well in, even 

1924
01:36:45,280 --> 01:36:47,480
though it has such an influence 
on other genres like sci-fi and 

1925
01:36:47,480 --> 01:36:50,080
fantasy. 
Victor Frankenstein is deeply 

1926
01:36:50,080 --> 01:36:53,080
troubled by what he's done. 
The conflict within the story 

1927
01:36:53,080 --> 01:36:57,440
is, is rooted in him trying to 
undo what he's done. 

1928
01:36:57,920 --> 01:37:03,280
Very different than a Kai Byrne 
who has no worry or care about 

1929
01:37:03,280 --> 01:37:06,360
what his experiments might do to
the world. 

1930
01:37:06,360 --> 01:37:09,280
Or he has no concern. 
He's it's all for him to learn 

1931
01:37:09,280 --> 01:37:11,400
his own exploration, his own 
aggrandizement. 

1932
01:37:11,640 --> 01:37:14,880
That's what he cares about. 
And I the closest thing we have 

1933
01:37:15,240 --> 01:37:19,200
in this world might be Thoros. 
Thoros is maybe troubled by 

1934
01:37:19,200 --> 01:37:21,600
bringing back Barrick multiple 
times and is definitely too 

1935
01:37:21,600 --> 01:37:24,040
troubled to even consider doing 
it on other people. 

1936
01:37:24,040 --> 01:37:27,880
As far as we know, we haven't 
heard from the children on the 

1937
01:37:27,880 --> 01:37:31,120
existence of the others. 
The children might regret what 

1938
01:37:31,120 --> 01:37:33,120
they did. 
They might say, hey, we made the

1939
01:37:33,400 --> 01:37:34,840
others. 
We regret that. 

1940
01:37:35,080 --> 01:37:37,840
That might be a good example of 
this concept. 

1941
01:37:37,960 --> 01:37:41,880
The children are the Victor 
Frankenstein in this scenario 

1942
01:37:41,880 --> 01:37:44,400
where they they had a good 
reason or thought they had a 

1943
01:37:44,400 --> 01:37:47,760
good reason for doing it. 
But in retrospect, oops, we 

1944
01:37:48,000 --> 01:37:51,080
shouldn't have done that. 
And let us recall how deeply 

1945
01:37:51,080 --> 01:37:54,680
ingrained the concept of 
resurrection is and was or was. 

1946
01:37:54,680 --> 01:37:57,200
And it is what I meant to say 
for for Christian folk living in

1947
01:37:57,200 --> 01:38:01,800
the time of Mary Shelley, which 
was like 18101815, the ideas 

1948
01:38:01,800 --> 01:38:03,680
present in Frankenstein were 
pretty edgy. 

1949
01:38:03,680 --> 01:38:07,200
Like the whole idea of beating 
death and cheating death and the

1950
01:38:07,200 --> 01:38:09,200
otherization of people, things 
like that. 

1951
01:38:09,200 --> 01:38:12,040
It was and it was a horror 
novel, so it was already kind of

1952
01:38:12,080 --> 01:38:14,120
terrifying in that sense. 
But just these these concepts 

1953
01:38:14,120 --> 01:38:18,280
made people uncomfortable. 
Also, they were uncomfortable by

1954
01:38:18,280 --> 01:38:22,480
the idea of a female author. 
But you know, there's the 19th 

1955
01:38:22,480 --> 01:38:24,160
century for you and a lot of 
other centuries. 

1956
01:38:24,440 --> 01:38:27,120
So a lot of gender based 
criticism at the time, but in in

1957
01:38:28,320 --> 01:38:31,520
some of that may have served to 
keep the discussion going on 

1958
01:38:31,520 --> 01:38:33,840
This book, which is now, you 
know, to this day, it's 

1959
01:38:33,840 --> 01:38:37,400
obviously the people that 
ridiculed it or criticized it 

1960
01:38:37,400 --> 01:38:40,200
for being written by a woman 
were obviously very wrong 

1961
01:38:40,200 --> 01:38:43,960
because the book still is 
massively influential. 

1962
01:38:43,960 --> 01:38:49,480
So yeah, take that haters. 
Now one thing that Shelley and 

1963
01:38:49,480 --> 01:38:55,160
Lovecraft had in common was that
they were both suffered trauma 

1964
01:38:55,160 --> 01:38:58,520
as children or as in their early
lives, like Lovecraft's father 

1965
01:38:58,520 --> 01:39:01,920
was committed to a mental 
institution who was three and 

1966
01:39:01,920 --> 01:39:03,880
died in that institution five 
years later. 

1967
01:39:03,880 --> 01:39:06,280
Then his mother had issues with 
her sanity. 

1968
01:39:06,960 --> 01:39:10,280
Mary Shelley's mother died from 
childbed fever 11 days after she

1969
01:39:10,280 --> 01:39:11,880
was born. 
So she never knew her mother, 

1970
01:39:11,920 --> 01:39:14,600
but she had both her parents 
were were art were were authors.

1971
01:39:14,600 --> 01:39:17,640
So she had a nice literary 
upbringing in Reanimator. 

1972
01:39:17,640 --> 01:39:19,680
They were truly bringing people 
back from the dead with 

1973
01:39:19,680 --> 01:39:21,240
fictional science like over and 
over. 

1974
01:39:21,240 --> 01:39:23,400
Like that was part of the parody
that that just kept doing it 

1975
01:39:23,400 --> 01:39:26,240
over and over. 
And and it gets deeper to the 

1976
01:39:26,240 --> 01:39:28,560
nature of self. 
Like is Frankenstein's creation 

1977
01:39:29,120 --> 01:39:31,680
mostly the identity of the 
person whose brain it belong to?

1978
01:39:31,680 --> 01:39:34,440
Like if you take a brain out of 
1 cadaver and put it in another 

1979
01:39:34,440 --> 01:39:39,280
body, whose body is it? 
Like is it, does it belong to 

1980
01:39:39,280 --> 01:39:42,320
the person whose brain it is, 
even though that brain is dead 

1981
01:39:42,400 --> 01:39:45,880
but then revived, or is it 
belong to the original holder of

1982
01:39:45,880 --> 01:39:47,320
that body even though the brain 
is gone? 

1983
01:39:47,320 --> 01:39:51,160
It oh it, it asks a lot of 
really weird philosophical 

1984
01:39:51,160 --> 01:39:53,480
questions that we're not 
prepared to answer because the 

1985
01:39:53,920 --> 01:39:57,240
these things aren't real. 
The nature of these things 

1986
01:39:57,240 --> 01:39:59,440
doesn't exist is at least not 
yet. 

1987
01:39:59,440 --> 01:40:02,120
Maybe it will one day. 
Not the magic, but the idea, but

1988
01:40:02,240 --> 01:40:06,080
the ability to bring people back
from seeming death after a 

1989
01:40:06,080 --> 01:40:07,520
longer period of time than we 
have now. 

1990
01:40:07,520 --> 01:40:10,760
You know, after something longer
than CPR, something longer than 

1991
01:40:10,800 --> 01:40:12,520
you know, flatlining for a few 
minutes. 

1992
01:40:13,280 --> 01:40:15,600
Maybe in the future, we'll it'll
be longer than that. 

1993
01:40:16,280 --> 01:40:19,160
So these are weird questions. 
I mean, especially when you get 

1994
01:40:19,160 --> 01:40:22,600
into other things like the 
connection between the brain and

1995
01:40:22,600 --> 01:40:24,520
the gut. 
We know a lot about that these 

1996
01:40:24,520 --> 01:40:26,520
days that there's a big 
connection between your gut 

1997
01:40:26,520 --> 01:40:30,560
health and your brain. 
So in this brain body example of

1998
01:40:30,560 --> 01:40:33,600
Frankenstein, like, well, it's 
this, the original body's gut is

1999
01:40:33,600 --> 01:40:36,720
as big an impact on the brain. 
These two things work together. 

2000
01:40:37,080 --> 01:40:39,000
Then is it actually 2 beings in 
this body? 

2001
01:40:39,000 --> 01:40:41,400
Is that the correct answer? 
Or is there just some new 

2002
01:40:41,400 --> 01:40:44,400
category we have to invent? 
George is aware of all these 

2003
01:40:44,400 --> 01:40:46,440
things. 
He's introduced some of these 

2004
01:40:46,440 --> 01:40:47,920
concepts and maybe he just 
hasn't gone. 

2005
01:40:47,920 --> 01:40:49,520
We just haven't seen the full 
extent of them. 

2006
01:40:50,240 --> 01:40:54,480
Sir Gregor is multiple bodies in
one in a sense. 

2007
01:40:55,160 --> 01:40:56,880
So again, Frankenstein 
considered by many to be a 

2008
01:40:56,880 --> 01:40:59,840
precursor to sci-fi. 
Given Victor Frankenstein does 

2009
01:40:59,840 --> 01:41:02,320
everything via science. 
There's no magic or occult or 

2010
01:41:02,320 --> 01:41:03,720
supernatural at all in 
Frankenstein. 

2011
01:41:03,720 --> 01:41:08,120
It's all fictional science, AKA 
science fiction, which is why 

2012
01:41:08,120 --> 01:41:11,960
it's a precursor to science. 
Can I say yeah? 

2013
01:41:11,960 --> 01:41:14,920
Can I say a show that has an 
example of, I think all the 

2014
01:41:14,920 --> 01:41:17,640
types of necromancy we talked 
about today is What We Do in the

2015
01:41:17,640 --> 01:41:22,560
Shadows, which has the zombie 
type magic resurrection. 

2016
01:41:22,560 --> 01:41:26,240
It has the seance like Ouija 
board type communing with the 

2017
01:41:26,240 --> 01:41:31,040
dead necromancy, and it has a 
Frankenstein's monster, 

2018
01:41:31,040 --> 01:41:34,400
Cravensworth's monster in the 
final season, right? 

2019
01:41:34,760 --> 01:41:38,640
It truly has them all. 
Well done What We Do in the 

2020
01:41:38,640 --> 01:41:40,960
Shadows and that show is so 
good. 

2021
01:41:41,000 --> 01:41:42,160
It had a good, it had a good 
end. 

2022
01:41:42,160 --> 01:41:43,800
It's over now, but it had a 
great run. 

2023
01:41:44,040 --> 01:41:46,640
Yeah, it was a very satisfying 
run of the show, enough to 

2024
01:41:46,640 --> 01:41:48,680
binge. 
I highly recommend watching the 

2025
01:41:48,680 --> 01:41:52,520
TV show and the movie. 
Yeah, comment if you love What 

2026
01:41:52,520 --> 01:41:56,640
we do in the Shadows. 
So not one final bit about 

2027
01:41:57,080 --> 01:42:00,600
Frankenstein. 
That is also a bit of a parallel

2028
01:42:00,600 --> 01:42:03,960
to George RR Martin. 
It's that the story is presented

2029
01:42:04,400 --> 01:42:09,000
as told by Frankenstein himself 
in the Arctic in the extreme N 

2030
01:42:09,000 --> 01:42:12,800
he has pursued his creation to 
the extreme N the northernmost 

2031
01:42:12,800 --> 01:42:15,160
point on earth. 
So that's kind of cool. 

2032
01:42:15,160 --> 01:42:17,320
During the winter solstice in 
the arc circle, the sun doesn't 

2033
01:42:17,320 --> 01:42:19,120
even rise. 
So it's a it's a it's a long 

2034
01:42:19,120 --> 01:42:22,360
night right there. 
As bad as Reanimator was as the 

2035
01:42:22,360 --> 01:42:24,600
story was actually quite 
successful as a movie, which 

2036
01:42:24,600 --> 01:42:27,720
underscores its impact because 
the ideas were interesting. 

2037
01:42:27,720 --> 01:42:30,440
It has like 1 of the first 
depictions of a mad scientist. 

2038
01:42:30,600 --> 01:42:33,360
The my scientist genre didn't 
really exist prior to that. 

2039
01:42:33,760 --> 01:42:35,840
It was also one of the first 
depictions of raising the dead 

2040
01:42:35,840 --> 01:42:38,920
with science rather than with 
magic or deities. 

2041
01:42:38,920 --> 01:42:42,920
So as far as a movie goes, so 
that's kind of ironic there, 

2042
01:42:42,920 --> 01:42:47,040
that it has all these things in 
it, that This is why we talk 

2043
01:42:47,040 --> 01:42:50,040
about Frankenstein and 
Reanimator together, because if 

2044
01:42:50,040 --> 01:42:52,400
you think about Frankenstein and
all the depictions of 

2045
01:42:52,400 --> 01:42:56,560
Frankenstein later, it's almost 
always mad scientist stuff, 

2046
01:42:57,120 --> 01:42:59,640
which is not the original 
version, the original 

2047
01:42:59,640 --> 01:43:01,880
Frankenstein. 
He was not a mad scientist. 

2048
01:43:01,880 --> 01:43:04,680
He was maybe using some pretty 
mad science, but as we said, 

2049
01:43:05,000 --> 01:43:09,000
deeply troubled by what he had 
done and spent his life trying 

2050
01:43:09,000 --> 01:43:11,760
to undo what his mistakes 
caused. 

2051
01:43:12,600 --> 01:43:16,000
So that's not at all like how 
Frankenstein tends to be 

2052
01:43:16,000 --> 01:43:17,520
detected. 
Not only is Frankenstein 

2053
01:43:17,520 --> 01:43:20,960
depicted as a monster or as an 
automaton or is not intelligent,

2054
01:43:21,200 --> 01:43:23,520
but Victor Frankenstein is 
portrayed as a mad scientist, 

2055
01:43:23,520 --> 01:43:27,720
which neither are the originals.
Lovecraft's version as a parody 

2056
01:43:27,760 --> 01:43:30,520
is the kind that people tend to 
run with and sensationalize. 

2057
01:43:30,520 --> 01:43:33,320
Maybe that's got more of an 
appeal to a mass audience, but I

2058
01:43:33,320 --> 01:43:34,880
like to point out what the 
originals were. 

2059
01:43:35,600 --> 01:43:37,840
But you know, people are allowed
to enjoy whatever they want. 

2060
01:43:38,480 --> 01:43:41,680
So this is their very good 
examples of what influenced 

2061
01:43:41,680 --> 01:43:43,320
George. 
I think I, I spent a little more

2062
01:43:43,320 --> 01:43:45,440
time on this section than I 
intended, but whatever, it's 

2063
01:43:45,440 --> 01:43:49,200
cool, it's fun. 
Polar opposite examples for both

2064
01:43:49,200 --> 01:43:51,880
the results of and the 
practitioners of scientific 

2065
01:43:51,880 --> 01:43:54,480
necromancy. 
We have someone who kept at it 

2066
01:43:54,480 --> 01:43:57,120
until it killed them in the case
of Herbert West and another 

2067
01:43:57,120 --> 01:43:59,000
determined to undo what he had 
done. 

2068
01:43:59,280 --> 01:44:02,240
Even if it kills him, he'll go 
all the way to the extreme N the

2069
01:44:02,240 --> 01:44:05,960
Arctic Circle to face what he's 
done, even if it ends his own 

2070
01:44:05,960 --> 01:44:07,920
life. 
Whereas this other guy's like, I

2071
01:44:08,000 --> 01:44:11,560
don't care, I'm just going to 
keep on reanimating. 1 deeply 

2072
01:44:11,560 --> 01:44:14,680
troubled one who got 
progressively eviler, one who 

2073
01:44:14,680 --> 01:44:18,080
made an articulate, intelligent 
being capable of love, the other

2074
01:44:18,080 --> 01:44:22,320
made mostly out of control or 
vindictive, aggressive, violent 

2075
01:44:22,320 --> 01:44:27,200
beings and didn't care. 
So yeah, so obviously this is 

2076
01:44:27,200 --> 01:44:29,760
taking us to our next character 
in A Song of Ice and Fire, where

2077
01:44:29,760 --> 01:44:31,600
fictional science replaces 
magic. 

2078
01:44:31,600 --> 01:44:34,480
The magic, science based 
necromancy, some combination of 

2079
01:44:34,480 --> 01:44:38,000
the two has a place in A Song of
Ice and Fire deep down in the 

2080
01:44:38,000 --> 01:44:41,160
black cells and laboratories of 
Kyburn. 

2081
01:44:43,480 --> 01:44:45,040
This really makes him seem like 
a big deal, huh? 

2082
01:44:45,160 --> 01:44:49,960
We're like the others relore the
drowned God Kyburn. 

2083
01:44:50,880 --> 01:44:54,840
It's like, it's like, I mean, 
I'm a God. 

2084
01:44:54,840 --> 01:44:58,120
I'm the God of I don't know what
I'm the God. 

2085
01:44:58,120 --> 01:45:01,520
I'm the God of creepy. 
I'm the God of hiding in your 

2086
01:45:01,520 --> 01:45:03,680
closet. 
No, he's definitely messing with

2087
01:45:03,680 --> 01:45:06,160
the powers of gods, though. 
I mean, the the power of life 

2088
01:45:06,160 --> 01:45:08,240
and death is supposed to be in 
the hands of the deities, right?

2089
01:45:08,240 --> 01:45:10,640
That's that's usually how this 
is defined. 

2090
01:45:10,880 --> 01:45:14,040
And generally when you mess with
the powers of gods, it backfires

2091
01:45:14,040 --> 01:45:17,320
on the creator. 
That is not unlikely to be the 

2092
01:45:17,320 --> 01:45:19,520
fate George has in store for 
Kyber and we'll just have to 

2093
01:45:19,520 --> 01:45:21,320
see. 
Well read. 

2094
01:45:22,080 --> 01:45:25,680
As I said during the intro, the 
term necromancy doesn't come up 

2095
01:45:25,680 --> 01:45:28,640
a lot in A Song of Ice and Fire,
but it does come up from time to

2096
01:45:28,640 --> 01:45:32,080
time. 
Here's one of those times Quote.

2097
01:45:32,240 --> 01:45:34,400
There is a letter from your lady
wife. 

2098
01:45:34,880 --> 01:45:37,960
Kyburn pulled A roll of 
parchment from his sleeve. 

2099
01:45:38,440 --> 01:45:42,240
Though he wore Maester's robes, 
there was no chain about his 

2100
01:45:42,240 --> 01:45:44,480
neck. 
It was whispered that he had 

2101
01:45:44,480 --> 01:45:47,200
lost it for dabbling in 
necromancy. 

2102
01:45:47,600 --> 01:45:49,640
That's actually the first time 
the word is used in A Song of 

2103
01:45:49,640 --> 01:45:52,080
Ice and Fire figures that it 
would be associated with Kyburn 

2104
01:45:52,240 --> 01:45:54,960
and at Harrenhal. 
Now Harrenhal doesn't have a lot

2105
01:45:54,960 --> 01:45:57,280
of direct association with 
necromancy, but it sure does 

2106
01:45:57,280 --> 01:46:01,480
have a lot of association with 
ghosts, IE the product of 

2107
01:46:01,480 --> 01:46:05,360
necromancy possibly, and blood 
magic, which is maybe a cousin 

2108
01:46:05,360 --> 01:46:07,520
to necromancy. 
Maybe blood magic is used in 

2109
01:46:07,520 --> 01:46:10,680
necromancy sometimes. 
And for more on that, check out 

2110
01:46:10,680 --> 01:46:15,400
our fairly recent episode on the
Black Bat of Harrenhal, AKA 

2111
01:46:15,400 --> 01:46:18,560
House Lofston. 
Another time the word 

2112
01:46:18,560 --> 01:46:21,880
necromancy, or necromancer 
rather comes up repeatedly, is 

2113
01:46:21,880 --> 01:46:24,840
the appendix next to Kai Byrne's
name. 

2114
01:46:25,960 --> 01:46:28,920
That's right, he's straighted up
in different books, different 

2115
01:46:28,920 --> 01:46:31,440
appendices. 
He's listed as a sometime 

2116
01:46:31,440 --> 01:46:35,440
necromancer, A reputed 
necromancer, and then just a 

2117
01:46:35,440 --> 01:46:39,440
necromancer. 
So yeah, the appendix is harder 

2118
01:46:39,440 --> 01:46:40,920
to argue with. 
Yeah, he's a necromancer. 

2119
01:46:42,400 --> 01:46:45,080
So I guess he was someone that 
dabbled in it. 

2120
01:46:45,080 --> 01:46:47,800
He was messing with it, 
experimenting with it. 

2121
01:46:47,800 --> 01:46:49,280
And. 
And that's when the Citadel 

2122
01:46:49,280 --> 01:46:51,240
kicked him out. 
They found out about it and 

2123
01:46:51,240 --> 01:46:54,160
said, no, no more of that, 
you're gone. 

2124
01:46:54,840 --> 01:46:57,480
And I doubt that they kicked him
out if he wasn't making 

2125
01:46:57,480 --> 01:47:00,080
progress. 
I mean, if he was, maybe he was 

2126
01:47:00,080 --> 01:47:02,560
just cutting bodies open and 
they're like, bro, what are you 

2127
01:47:02,560 --> 01:47:04,240
doing? 
You know, that's terrifying. 

2128
01:47:04,240 --> 01:47:07,360
Stop that. 
But it might have been because 

2129
01:47:07,360 --> 01:47:10,320
he had some results. 
I mean, he definitely got 

2130
01:47:10,320 --> 01:47:12,920
results eventually. 
So it would stand to reason that

2131
01:47:12,920 --> 01:47:15,920
he had some early successes. 
Maybe he, I don't know, animated

2132
01:47:15,920 --> 01:47:19,360
a cadaverous hand or a dead 
mouse or something like that. 

2133
01:47:19,480 --> 01:47:24,680
Ted Mouse I named a musical 
artist by accident, but he may 

2134
01:47:24,680 --> 01:47:26,440
have also learned things at 
Herrenhall. 

2135
01:47:26,440 --> 01:47:29,960
I don't mean like from an 
individual, but there's books at

2136
01:47:29,960 --> 01:47:32,720
Herrenhall. 
And those books might have been 

2137
01:47:32,720 --> 01:47:36,800
put there by Lady Danielle 
Lofsten or one of her 

2138
01:47:36,800 --> 01:47:38,480
predecessors there at 
Herrenhall. 

2139
01:47:38,480 --> 01:47:42,800
Who knows what kind of creepy 
sorceress tomes might be in the 

2140
01:47:42,800 --> 01:47:45,680
shelves there that Kyburn had 
access to. 

2141
01:47:46,000 --> 01:47:49,680
And whatever books are at the 
Red Keep, he also now has access

2142
01:47:49,680 --> 01:47:51,840
to those. 
And then he got to set up his 

2143
01:47:51,840 --> 01:47:56,200
laboratories in the Black Cells 
next to Cersei and is learning 

2144
01:47:56,200 --> 01:47:58,360
more as we speak. 
Yeah, even right now. 

2145
01:47:58,360 --> 01:48:01,280
That's right. 
Another semantical question in 

2146
01:48:01,280 --> 01:48:03,880
line with some of our previous 
ones is, was Sir Gregor actually

2147
01:48:03,880 --> 01:48:07,440
ever dead? 
Is it like the Last of Us fungus

2148
01:48:07,440 --> 01:48:12,640
or the the 28 Days Later virus 
where it just turns them into 

2149
01:48:12,640 --> 01:48:16,040
this kind of seemingly dead 
zombie like creature? 

2150
01:48:16,640 --> 01:48:19,400
Sir Gregor was dying slowly. 
He I don't know that he actually

2151
01:48:19,400 --> 01:48:24,840
died before becoming the Kyborg 
as again, semantics, but fun 

2152
01:48:24,840 --> 01:48:28,960
semantics. 
Yeah, now that quote was from 

2153
01:48:28,960 --> 01:48:33,920
Arya and A Clash of Kings. 
It's not just whispered that he 

2154
01:48:33,920 --> 01:48:37,760
lost his chain for necromancy. 
This is what he straight up 

2155
01:48:37,760 --> 01:48:40,920
tells Cersei quote. 
The Archmaesters are all Craven 

2156
01:48:40,920 --> 01:48:43,800
at heart. 
The Gray sheep, Marwin calls 

2157
01:48:43,800 --> 01:48:46,000
them. 
I was as skilled A healer as 

2158
01:48:46,040 --> 01:48:48,720
Ebros, but aspired to surpass 
him. 

2159
01:48:49,200 --> 01:48:52,480
For hundreds of years, the men 
of the citadel have opened the 

2160
01:48:52,480 --> 01:48:55,520
bodies of the dead to study the 
nature of life. 

2161
01:48:56,040 --> 01:49:00,360
I wish to understand the nature 
of death, so I opened the bodies

2162
01:49:00,360 --> 01:49:05,000
of the living for that crime. 
The Gray sheep shamed me and 

2163
01:49:05,000 --> 01:49:09,000
forced me into exile, but I 
understand the nature of life 

2164
01:49:09,000 --> 01:49:11,400
and death better than any man in
Old Town. 

2165
01:49:11,720 --> 01:49:14,480
Do you? 
That intrigued her. 

2166
01:49:14,960 --> 01:49:17,320
Very well. 
The Mountain is yours. 

2167
01:49:17,760 --> 01:49:21,000
Do what you will with him, but 
confine your studies to the 

2168
01:49:21,000 --> 01:49:25,640
Black Cells. 
Even Cersei, who does all sorts 

2169
01:49:25,640 --> 01:49:28,680
of things out in the open, like 
cruelty and displays of power 

2170
01:49:28,680 --> 01:49:33,080
and cruel displays of power, 
knows that this needs to be kept

2171
01:49:33,080 --> 01:49:37,120
on the down low. 
Even Cersei knows this is too 

2172
01:49:37,120 --> 01:49:40,520
much for the public. 
Keep this under wraps. 

2173
01:49:41,480 --> 01:49:44,320
Even Cersei knows that 
necromancy is. 

2174
01:49:44,640 --> 01:49:46,280
Yeah, she's like, yeah, The 
Citadel. 

2175
01:49:47,040 --> 01:49:51,000
I had a good reason for kicking 
you out, man, but I can make use

2176
01:49:51,000 --> 01:49:54,680
of you for that crime. 
The Gray sheep shamed open 

2177
01:49:54,680 --> 01:49:56,640
bodies of the living. 
Yeah, that's a crime. 

2178
01:49:56,640 --> 01:49:58,440
I'm glad you see it that way, 
Kyburn. 

2179
01:49:59,000 --> 01:50:01,680
What is he doing? 
Experimenting on prisoners like 

2180
01:50:01,680 --> 01:50:03,440
he's doing now? 
Yeah, probably. 

2181
01:50:04,520 --> 01:50:08,200
He also tells her I won't bother
to quote it, but he says you 

2182
01:50:08,200 --> 01:50:12,480
need to fight like with like, 
send a knight to kill a knight. 

2183
01:50:12,600 --> 01:50:16,920
Send an Archer to kill an Archer
to combat the black arts dot dot

2184
01:50:16,920 --> 01:50:19,240
dot. 
He leaves the thought unspoken, 

2185
01:50:19,560 --> 01:50:21,560
but Cersei obviously follows his
meaning. 

2186
01:50:21,880 --> 01:50:23,680
And she's like, OK, you're 
hired. 

2187
01:50:23,680 --> 01:50:26,240
Then this is when that next the 
quote happens, right? 

2188
01:50:26,240 --> 01:50:30,880
Then after that exchange and 
well, he produces results like 

2189
01:50:30,880 --> 01:50:33,040
Cersei can't be like, well that 
was a waste of time. 

2190
01:50:33,360 --> 01:50:39,960
She now has an unholy, ungodly, 
possibly near undefeatable 

2191
01:50:39,960 --> 01:50:42,560
protector bodyguard walking 
around with her at all times, 

2192
01:50:42,560 --> 01:50:44,040
and everyone is terrified of 
him. 

2193
01:50:44,520 --> 01:50:49,520
Kevin in his epilogue chapter 
knows what the deal is, sort of.

2194
01:50:49,520 --> 01:50:51,880
He's like, we all kind of know 
what that is. 

2195
01:50:51,880 --> 01:50:55,040
Like, that's Gregor. 
And how is he walking around? 

2196
01:50:55,040 --> 01:50:57,440
Like he doesn't like thinking 
about it, but he knows it. 

2197
01:50:58,040 --> 01:51:00,680
There's no other explanation. 
It's creepy as hell. 

2198
01:51:01,280 --> 01:51:04,360
And he knows that other people 
know like the other Kingsguard 

2199
01:51:04,360 --> 01:51:08,680
or like, what the hell? 
So again, you have this thing 

2200
01:51:08,680 --> 01:51:10,640
just out in the open. 
This is Cersei again, willing to

2201
01:51:10,640 --> 01:51:12,000
do things like this out in the 
open. 

2202
01:51:12,480 --> 01:51:15,160
We don't know what the Kyborg 
can do. 

2203
01:51:15,160 --> 01:51:17,920
We don't know how exactly, how 
dangerous or deadly or 

2204
01:51:17,920 --> 01:51:20,760
unstoppable the the Mountain 
that died. 

2205
01:51:20,760 --> 01:51:23,840
It really is. 
But surely he'll be hard to 

2206
01:51:23,840 --> 01:51:25,480
stop. 
Surely he'll be a menace. 

2207
01:51:25,880 --> 01:51:31,680
Surely he'll be intense. 
So, Sir, she lost Jamie, but she

2208
01:51:31,680 --> 01:51:35,400
got Sir Gregor. 
Traded her romance for a 

2209
01:51:35,400 --> 01:51:39,640
necromance, Sir. 
There's a lot of implications of

2210
01:51:39,640 --> 01:51:41,120
that. 
And you consider what would 

2211
01:51:41,120 --> 01:51:44,240
happen if the faith, if this 
high Sparrow learns about what 

2212
01:51:44,240 --> 01:51:46,400
the deal is with that guy like 
are they going to call that an 

2213
01:51:46,400 --> 01:51:48,560
abomination? 
Will they react to that at all 

2214
01:51:48,560 --> 01:51:50,480
Will they ever will they even 
learn about it? 

2215
01:51:50,480 --> 01:51:53,040
I don't know, they might be 
distracted by bigger, more 

2216
01:51:53,040 --> 01:51:55,600
supernatural things, like, I 
don't know, Dragons or 

2217
01:51:55,600 --> 01:51:59,160
something. 
But still, I wouldn't look 

2218
01:51:59,160 --> 01:52:05,600
kindly on that. 
Let's look at some necromancers 

2219
01:52:05,680 --> 01:52:08,120
elsewhere. 
Necromancers of the world unite.

2220
01:52:08,800 --> 01:52:11,120
I made a joke about that at the 
beginning, how necromancers are 

2221
01:52:11,120 --> 01:52:13,960
solitary figures, and that is a 
social consequence of being a 

2222
01:52:13,960 --> 01:52:16,480
necromancer, apparently, or of 
using this form of magic is no 

2223
01:52:16,480 --> 01:52:17,640
one's going to want to be around
you. 

2224
01:52:17,640 --> 01:52:21,000
This is creepy business. 
This is a solitary profession, 

2225
01:52:21,120 --> 01:52:22,640
right? 
You don't have a lot of friends 

2226
01:52:22,640 --> 01:52:26,640
when you're a necromancer, but 
it is still a practice done 

2227
01:52:26,640 --> 01:52:30,120
worldwide. 
Some examples like this might be

2228
01:52:30,120 --> 01:52:33,240
rumor, but in other places we 
can be confident in what we're 

2229
01:52:33,240 --> 01:52:35,120
told. 
But we also have some more 

2230
01:52:35,120 --> 01:52:37,080
domestic examples. 
Before moving away from 

2231
01:52:37,080 --> 01:52:39,200
Westeros. 
Let's talk about the Hooded Man 

2232
01:52:39,200 --> 01:52:44,720
of the Bain Fort and take a look
at where the Bain Fort is far to

2233
01:52:44,720 --> 01:52:47,840
the West, right? 
But it's pretty close to the 

2234
01:52:47,840 --> 01:52:52,480
Iron Isles where we find, or 
rather where we had talked about

2235
01:52:52,480 --> 01:52:54,480
our reaving necromancer of House
Drum. 

2236
01:52:54,720 --> 01:52:57,800
And this story is also from the 
Age of Heroes, so the proximity 

2237
01:52:57,800 --> 01:53:01,280
is interesting there. 
The kings of the Bain Fort were 

2238
01:53:01,280 --> 01:53:04,880
called the Hooded Kings and they
descended from the legendary 

2239
01:53:05,840 --> 01:53:09,360
Hooded Man. 
I wrote Hooden man here. 

2240
01:53:10,360 --> 01:53:17,160
What is a hooden man? 
The Lannisters under King Lorion

2241
01:53:17,360 --> 01:53:21,000
married the Reigns, The Reigns 
of Castamere and their combined 

2242
01:53:21,000 --> 01:53:24,600
power the Reigns and the 
Lannisters was able to take down

2243
01:53:24,600 --> 01:53:26,160
the final Hooded King. 
He must have been pretty 

2244
01:53:26,160 --> 01:53:29,360
powerful to to require both 
Lannister and Rain to take him 

2245
01:53:29,360 --> 01:53:33,320
down and that tracks cause Check
out this quote. 

2246
01:53:33,920 --> 01:53:38,560
King Morgan was supposedly a 
necromancer of terrible power, 

2247
01:53:38,840 --> 01:53:43,120
and it is written that as he lay
dying, he told the Lannisters 

2248
01:53:43,120 --> 01:53:47,880
who had slain him, amongst them 
3 of Lorian's own sons, that he 

2249
01:53:47,880 --> 01:53:52,160
would return from the grave to 
wreak vengeance upon them one 

2250
01:53:52,160 --> 01:53:55,520
and all. 
To prevent that, Lorian had 

2251
01:53:55,520 --> 01:54:01,160
Morgan's body hacked into 100 
pieces and fed to his lions in a

2252
01:54:01,160 --> 01:54:05,200
grisly aftermath. 
However, those self same lions 

2253
01:54:05,440 --> 01:54:10,400
broke loose two years later in 
the bowels of Casterly Rock and 

2254
01:54:10,400 --> 01:54:15,120
slew the King's sons, just as 
the Hooded King had promised. 

2255
01:54:15,520 --> 01:54:20,120
I think the implication here may
be that the hooded man whom all 

2256
01:54:20,120 --> 01:54:23,440
being forced to send was also a 
necromancer or some kind of 

2257
01:54:23,440 --> 01:54:27,120
magic wielder, and his 
descendants followed him in that

2258
01:54:27,120 --> 01:54:29,880
tradition until this final one, 
King Morgan. 

2259
01:54:30,400 --> 01:54:32,640
We're told that the war against 
King Morgan lasted 20 years. 

2260
01:54:32,640 --> 01:54:35,280
And again, it was Rain and 
Lannister versus this guy. 

2261
01:54:35,680 --> 01:54:38,840
So that's a lot. 
But it also says his thralls. 

2262
01:54:38,840 --> 01:54:41,200
They fought against his thralls.
That's another reason I make 

2263
01:54:41,200 --> 01:54:44,280
this Ironborn connection because
the term thrall is used. 

2264
01:54:44,280 --> 01:54:45,840
But these are probably undead 
thralls. 

2265
01:54:45,840 --> 01:54:47,960
These are his. 
His undead army is probably 

2266
01:54:47,960 --> 01:54:50,360
what's being spoken of here, 
which is like, whoa. 

2267
01:54:50,840 --> 01:54:55,280
And that would be Wyatt took 20 
years to defeat this guy because

2268
01:54:55,280 --> 01:55:00,080
he had undead soldiers and they 
might have had to be killed 

2269
01:55:00,080 --> 01:55:04,480
multiple times at in some cases.
If not face their former 

2270
01:55:04,480 --> 01:55:06,240
friends. 
Kill a Lannister or a reigned 

2271
01:55:06,240 --> 01:55:09,040
soldier, turn them and make them
a soldier on your side. 

2272
01:55:09,280 --> 01:55:12,800
Did the people of the Age of 
Heroes who dealt with 

2273
01:55:13,080 --> 01:55:16,840
necromancers like this guy or 
other ones, did they learn 

2274
01:55:16,840 --> 01:55:19,960
anything from it? 
Was that knowledge passed down 

2275
01:55:19,960 --> 01:55:22,720
to those who fought against the 
Others later in the Age of 

2276
01:55:22,720 --> 01:55:25,040
Heroes? 
Again, that's an important 

2277
01:55:25,040 --> 01:55:28,480
reminder. 
Necromancy predates the Others, 

2278
01:55:28,760 --> 01:55:31,840
and this is an example of the 
hooded man of the Bain Fort. 

2279
01:55:31,840 --> 01:55:34,400
Predates the others, predates 
the Long Night. 

2280
01:55:34,880 --> 01:55:39,720
So were these sorceries 
originally the product of some 

2281
01:55:39,720 --> 01:55:44,360
other magical society and then 
passed on to people in Westeros?

2282
01:55:44,360 --> 01:55:47,200
Maybe they originated way back 
in the great Empire of the Dawn 

2283
01:55:47,200 --> 01:55:51,040
and circulated in various places
throughout the world, ended up 

2284
01:55:51,040 --> 01:55:54,720
in the ancient magical realm of 
Old Town, which we also have in 

2285
01:55:54,720 --> 01:55:57,880
our list to discuss here. 
Maybe the children actually 

2286
01:55:57,880 --> 01:56:01,080
learned this sorcery from from 
another land. 

2287
01:56:01,080 --> 01:56:03,960
Maybe people who came to 
Westeros taught them these 

2288
01:56:03,960 --> 01:56:08,120
necromantic skills that they 
used to in turn make the Others 

2289
01:56:08,640 --> 01:56:10,680
right. 
They may have learned some of 

2290
01:56:10,680 --> 01:56:14,440
the sorcery that resulted in the
Others from elsewhere, from some

2291
01:56:14,440 --> 01:56:16,320
other traditions, from some 
other realm. 

2292
01:56:16,840 --> 01:56:19,320
It may have come to Westeros to 
teach them that they, I'm not 

2293
01:56:19,320 --> 01:56:22,560
saying the children went 
elsewhere to learn, but we know 

2294
01:56:22,560 --> 01:56:29,160
of, or at least have heard of 
magical swaps at Old Town, you 

2295
01:56:29,160 --> 01:56:31,600
know, way back in the day, or at
least the notion of that 

2296
01:56:31,600 --> 01:56:35,600
possibility. 
As for Morgan's revenge, you 

2297
01:56:35,600 --> 01:56:41,080
know the whole story of the 
lions breaking free and killing 

2298
01:56:41,080 --> 01:56:42,600
him after he promised that 
curse. 

2299
01:56:42,600 --> 01:56:44,640
I'm not sure that's a 
necromantic thing. 

2300
01:56:44,640 --> 01:56:48,160
That's just a different form of 
magic or just a a clever story. 

2301
01:56:48,760 --> 01:56:55,360
But it should be noted that both
Ghost and Summer have eaten the 

2302
01:56:55,360 --> 01:56:58,400
undead like they've eaten dead 
bodies that were animated, just 

2303
01:56:58,400 --> 01:57:03,120
like these lions ate the body of
the necromancer here. 

2304
01:57:03,120 --> 01:57:06,720
So I'm not sure that's the 
lesson here, but it's the only 

2305
01:57:06,720 --> 01:57:08,360
thing I can think of. 
So I wanted to throw it out 

2306
01:57:08,360 --> 01:57:10,360
there. 
If you, if you have any other 

2307
01:57:10,360 --> 01:57:12,200
angles on that, let me know. 
Because that one kind of that 

2308
01:57:12,680 --> 01:57:16,040
one's kind of curious to me. 
The whole idea of the the lions 

2309
01:57:16,040 --> 01:57:18,960
killing the that curse with the 
lions and the dead bodies inside

2310
01:57:18,960 --> 01:57:20,720
them. 
Maybe a little bit of a 

2311
01:57:20,720 --> 01:57:24,280
reincarnation story or a little 
bit like a Second Life parable. 

2312
01:57:25,040 --> 01:57:26,040
Yeah. 
I think it's just, yeah, meant 

2313
01:57:26,040 --> 01:57:29,440
to be a parable kind of, you 
know, like that, that. 

2314
01:57:29,440 --> 01:57:31,560
Yeah, that's the right term for 
it. 

2315
01:57:31,680 --> 01:57:35,160
Yeah, I like that idea. 
I'll land on that one for now, 

2316
01:57:35,160 --> 01:57:37,800
and I say I will too. 
Yeah, you, you tell us if you 

2317
01:57:37,800 --> 01:57:40,040
think differently. 
It's also hard not to think 

2318
01:57:40,040 --> 01:57:42,320
about the Necromancer from Lord 
of the Rings who was actually 

2319
01:57:42,320 --> 01:57:45,160
Sauron in disguise, because 
George being such a huge fan of 

2320
01:57:45,160 --> 01:57:48,960
Lord of the Rings. 
Also, Morgoth was the original 

2321
01:57:48,960 --> 01:57:51,400
Dark Lord and Sauron followed 
him. 

2322
01:57:51,480 --> 01:57:53,520
Morgon. 
Sounds like their names mashed 

2323
01:57:53,520 --> 01:57:56,640
together. 
Morgoth, Sauron, Morgon. 

2324
01:57:56,720 --> 01:58:00,120
Right, there's also reference 
George has said this to the 

2325
01:58:00,120 --> 01:58:03,480
Marvel superhero Black Hood, 
whom we also talked about in our

2326
01:58:03,480 --> 01:58:06,240
Lost in episode because there's 
Manfred of the Black Hood. 

2327
01:58:06,440 --> 01:58:08,560
So George apparently wanted to 
do this twice. 

2328
01:58:10,000 --> 01:58:13,080
Also take a look at their sigil.
I mean, it looks like the hooded

2329
01:58:13,080 --> 01:58:14,240
man. 
You can see what's what he's 

2330
01:58:14,240 --> 01:58:15,680
going for here. 
But it also looks like the 

2331
01:58:15,680 --> 01:58:18,240
Nazgul, which are the the ring 
Wraith from Lord of the Rings 

2332
01:58:18,240 --> 01:58:20,600
because they have they have 
hoods, but you can't really see 

2333
01:58:20,600 --> 01:58:24,000
what's beneath it. 
So yeah, that fits that vibes. 

2334
01:58:24,480 --> 01:58:26,600
George. 
George is a fan of the Nazgul, 

2335
01:58:27,400 --> 01:58:32,040
the 9:00. 
Let's move to the Hightower. 

2336
01:58:33,040 --> 01:58:36,600
The Hightower, as I was alluding
to in this previous section, is 

2337
01:58:36,600 --> 01:58:39,800
associated with all sorts of 
ancient magics back in the day, 

2338
01:58:40,040 --> 01:58:42,240
and some of those might still be
lingering. 

2339
01:58:42,240 --> 01:58:46,560
It may still have books on the 
shelf and practitioners within 

2340
01:58:46,760 --> 01:58:50,120
that have some idea of these old
magics. 

2341
01:58:50,680 --> 01:58:53,000
So double magical, double 
whammy. 

2342
01:58:53,000 --> 01:58:57,480
Here we have current, we have 
ancient, we have magic, then we 

2343
01:58:57,480 --> 01:59:00,240
have the citadel. 
Check out this, though buried 

2344
01:59:00,240 --> 01:59:02,960
deep in the appendix of A Feast 
for Crows. 

2345
01:59:03,160 --> 01:59:06,800
Quote the. 
High towers were instrumental in

2346
01:59:06,800 --> 01:59:10,600
the founding of the Citadel and 
continue to protect it to this 

2347
01:59:10,600 --> 01:59:13,840
day. 
Subtle and sophisticated, they 

2348
01:59:13,840 --> 01:59:17,720
have always been great patrons 
of learning and the faith, and 

2349
01:59:17,720 --> 01:59:21,440
it is said that certain of them 
have also dabbled in alchemy, 

2350
01:59:21,720 --> 01:59:24,760
necromancy and other sorceress 
arts. 

2351
01:59:25,200 --> 01:59:30,320
Notably, this is the A Feast for
Crows appendix where Kyburn is 

2352
01:59:30,320 --> 01:59:34,320
most active with his experiments
to create Sir Robert Strong in 

2353
01:59:34,320 --> 01:59:37,960
the form he is now. 
He was of course whisked away at

2354
01:59:37,960 --> 01:59:39,800
the end of A Storm of Swords, 
and it's throughout Feast for 

2355
01:59:39,800 --> 01:59:41,400
Crows where the experiments are 
taking place. 

2356
01:59:41,600 --> 01:59:44,280
So of course it fits that these 
topics would be raised in 

2357
01:59:44,280 --> 01:59:46,200
multiple places because that's 
what George likes to do. 

2358
01:59:46,200 --> 01:59:50,040
He likes to bring up something 
that conceptually fits with 

2359
01:59:50,040 --> 01:59:54,560
another plot line in unrelated 
POV's to add to the world 

2360
01:59:54,560 --> 01:59:57,040
building. 
Kind of obliquely or subtly or 

2361
01:59:57,040 --> 02:00:00,560
sneakily, this reminds us this 
connection to potential 

2362
02:00:00,560 --> 02:00:02,320
connection to Kyber. 
And if there's books on 

2363
02:00:02,320 --> 02:00:06,600
necromancy in the Citadel, you 
can guarantee the Hightower has 

2364
02:00:06,600 --> 02:00:08,280
those two, or at least has 
access to them. 

2365
02:00:08,280 --> 02:00:11,160
The reverse may not be true. 
The Hightower may have some of 

2366
02:00:11,160 --> 02:00:14,760
the rarest, most hard to find, 
most obscure books for 

2367
02:00:14,760 --> 02:00:16,640
themselves. 
They may not keep some of those 

2368
02:00:16,640 --> 02:00:19,040
in the Citadel, the ones that 
may contain items of real power 

2369
02:00:19,040 --> 02:00:21,160
or knowledge that they do not 
want to share. 

2370
02:00:21,840 --> 02:00:25,280
And of course. 
That's conjecture, but I think 

2371
02:00:25,280 --> 02:00:28,080
it stands to reason so, and I'm 
talking again, I'm very 

2372
02:00:28,080 --> 02:00:31,480
specifically about forbidden 
knowledge, stuff that maybe was 

2373
02:00:31,480 --> 02:00:35,440
forbidden as long back as the 
ancient Blackstone base of the 

2374
02:00:35,440 --> 02:00:37,920
High Tower was built, which 
let's not forget that's a thing.

2375
02:00:37,920 --> 02:00:41,360
The strange stone exists at the 
base of the High Tower, which 

2376
02:00:41,360 --> 02:00:45,280
may imply that the great Empire 
of the Dawn stretched this far, 

2377
02:00:45,440 --> 02:00:49,960
or at least had an outpost here.
Which is part of why we are able

2378
02:00:49,960 --> 02:00:59,680
to thoroughly theorize about the
potential for arcane imports to 

2379
02:00:59,680 --> 02:01:02,440
Old Town in truly ancient days, 
coming from other places around 

2380
02:01:02,440 --> 02:01:06,840
the world, perhaps to learn and 
merge with the magic of the 

2381
02:01:06,840 --> 02:01:08,280
Children. 
Like, well, this is an arcane 

2382
02:01:08,280 --> 02:01:09,520
land. 
There's things we can learn 

2383
02:01:09,520 --> 02:01:10,800
here. 
I want to learn about weirwoods,

2384
02:01:10,800 --> 02:01:13,520
Hartrees, the magics of 
Westeros, and someone that's 

2385
02:01:13,520 --> 02:01:15,560
already experiencing that from 
other continents. 

2386
02:01:15,800 --> 02:01:17,600
Yeah, well, that's the kind of 
knowledge they would pursue. 

2387
02:01:18,280 --> 02:01:24,600
Could Sam, as our person on 
location, learn about the nature

2388
02:01:24,600 --> 02:01:26,320
of this magic? 
Could Sam find books on 

2389
02:01:26,320 --> 02:01:28,240
necromancy? 
Could he find books on the 

2390
02:01:28,240 --> 02:01:31,920
others or related concepts that 
help defeat them? 

2391
02:01:32,160 --> 02:01:35,960
Like we talked talked earlier 
about methods of breaking the 

2392
02:01:35,960 --> 02:01:41,320
undead spell of of stopping the 
undead, breaking the rays, 

2393
02:01:41,320 --> 02:01:43,960
whatever magic has them 
enchanted and walking around. 

2394
02:01:43,960 --> 02:01:47,240
We can can you break that spell 
without killing the other or 

2395
02:01:47,760 --> 02:01:49,920
using or or destroying the 
white? 

2396
02:01:50,640 --> 02:01:54,240
If so, it might be written in 
books that are in the citadel, 

2397
02:01:54,240 --> 02:01:56,000
that place where knowledge 
survived. 

2398
02:01:56,040 --> 02:01:58,240
I mean, it might also be at the 
citadel castle black. 

2399
02:01:58,920 --> 02:02:02,120
I mean the the library of castle
Black or Hightower, the red 

2400
02:02:02,120 --> 02:02:03,480
keep. 
These books might exist is the 

2401
02:02:03,480 --> 02:02:06,160
point. 
But but since it's Sam at the at

2402
02:02:06,160 --> 02:02:10,040
Old Town, he's the book guy. 
He's the POV were most likely to

2403
02:02:10,040 --> 02:02:12,400
see that stuff through. 
So it makes stands to reason 

2404
02:02:12,400 --> 02:02:14,600
that it would be an Old Town 
that this happens. 

2405
02:02:15,520 --> 02:02:18,200
Like, yeah, how to stop 
necromancy, how to explain it, 

2406
02:02:18,440 --> 02:02:20,640
things like that. 
These are all potential books 

2407
02:02:20,640 --> 02:02:24,880
that Sam could encounter. 
And given that Euron is not 

2408
02:02:24,880 --> 02:02:29,920
unlikely to attack Old Town, 
possibly even take it, well, 

2409
02:02:29,920 --> 02:02:34,160
that opens up a whole nother 
ball of wax, ball of wax, bag of

2410
02:02:34,160 --> 02:02:37,680
worms, whole more set of 
opportunities. 

2411
02:02:37,680 --> 02:02:42,080
If Euron captures books or 
arcane knowledge like this, all 

2412
02:02:42,080 --> 02:02:43,520
bets are off, right? 
What could he do? 

2413
02:02:43,520 --> 02:02:45,120
What could he do with 
necromancy? 

2414
02:02:45,120 --> 02:02:49,600
Like, of all the people in this 
world that would have no qualms 

2415
02:02:49,600 --> 02:02:52,080
with using necromancy, he's one 
of them. 

2416
02:02:52,800 --> 02:02:54,200
He's one. 
And he would be like, yeah, can 

2417
02:02:54,200 --> 02:02:55,640
I do that? 
I want an army of the dead. 

2418
02:02:55,840 --> 02:02:58,520
That sounds awesome. 
Can I have Dragons and an army 

2419
02:02:58,520 --> 02:03:03,520
of the dead and summon krakens 
and do mushrooms, psychedelics? 

2420
02:03:03,520 --> 02:03:05,600
Can I do all that? 
Euron says yes. 

2421
02:03:05,600 --> 02:03:11,120
Euron, be our guest. 
Let's move on to the Free 

2422
02:03:11,120 --> 02:03:14,760
Cities. 
Here's another example from the 

2423
02:03:14,760 --> 02:03:19,880
history of Volantis quote. 
Blessed with a magnificent 

2424
02:03:19,880 --> 02:03:23,640
natural harbor and an ideal 
location at the mouth of the 

2425
02:03:23,640 --> 02:03:26,840
Rhine, Volantis began to grow 
rapidly. 

2426
02:03:27,320 --> 02:03:31,240
Homes and shops and Inns spread 
up the east Bank of the river 

2427
02:03:31,240 --> 02:03:35,440
and into the hills beyond the 
Black Walls, whilst across the 

2428
02:03:35,440 --> 02:03:39,760
Rhine on the West Bank the 
foreigners, freedmen, sell 

2429
02:03:39,760 --> 02:03:44,520
swords, criminals and other less
savory elements threw up their 

2430
02:03:44,520 --> 02:03:48,600
own shadow city, where 
fornication, drunkenness and 

2431
02:03:48,600 --> 02:03:53,760
murder held sway, and Unix 
pirates cut purses and 

2432
02:03:53,760 --> 02:03:57,600
necromancers mingled freely. 
It's a little bit of an odd 

2433
02:03:57,600 --> 02:04:01,520
grouping there, right? 
Unix pirates cut purses and 

2434
02:04:01,560 --> 02:04:04,960
necromancers, huh? 
It's a lot of necromancers. 

2435
02:04:04,960 --> 02:04:08,040
Or they're a very powerful 
minority. 

2436
02:04:08,120 --> 02:04:10,800
Like numerically speaking, 
there's probably a lot more of 

2437
02:04:10,800 --> 02:04:13,480
the first three groups, a lot 
more cut purses, pirates and 

2438
02:04:13,480 --> 02:04:15,360
eunuchs and eunuchs. 
Like what is that? 

2439
02:04:15,360 --> 02:04:17,920
That's not a profession. 
That's just a condition. 

2440
02:04:17,920 --> 02:04:20,440
Like I can understand though 
that they're outcasts though, 

2441
02:04:20,440 --> 02:04:24,960
you know, other, like other 
civilized society doesn't allow 

2442
02:04:24,960 --> 02:04:27,560
them to participate, so they get
pushed to the margins. 

2443
02:04:27,560 --> 02:04:29,560
With all those necromances 
around, that's why there's so 

2444
02:04:29,560 --> 02:04:31,880
many eunuchs. 
If we believe Varese's story, 

2445
02:04:31,880 --> 02:04:33,240
the. 
Necromance. 

2446
02:04:33,240 --> 02:04:35,600
Making them into you. 
Oh, God, yeah. 

2447
02:04:37,720 --> 02:04:41,000
Good thing those private parts 
are burned in the in the fire. 

2448
02:04:41,000 --> 02:04:43,880
She did just like little 
shriveled penises just crawling 

2449
02:04:43,880 --> 02:04:48,040
along on the ground, still, 
still animated by some distant 

2450
02:04:48,040 --> 02:04:49,280
necromancer. 
He's like, dude, these things 

2451
02:04:49,280 --> 02:04:51,360
are a plague. 
We got little, well, we got 

2452
02:04:51,360 --> 02:04:54,240
little genitalia just creeping, 
crawling along the ground here. 

2453
02:04:54,240 --> 02:04:56,280
It's a weird place to be. 
You can understand why the the 

2454
02:04:56,320 --> 02:04:58,320
Valentines shut this place down,
right? 

2455
02:04:58,600 --> 02:05:01,880
But no, it's weird, right? 
You got this, this combination 

2456
02:05:01,880 --> 02:05:04,040
of of outcasts. 
These are people who operate in 

2457
02:05:04,040 --> 02:05:06,320
the margins of society. 
Unix have no choice. 

2458
02:05:06,680 --> 02:05:08,680
Cut purses. 
Maybe they come from poor 

2459
02:05:08,680 --> 02:05:12,640
upbringings and and have to fund
their life through crime. 

2460
02:05:12,840 --> 02:05:15,560
Pirates similar. 
You know, necromancers though, 

2461
02:05:16,840 --> 02:05:19,200
this is like you've 
intentionally made yourself an 

2462
02:05:19,200 --> 02:05:21,160
outcast. 
You may you were not necessarily

2463
02:05:21,160 --> 02:05:23,000
born into this. 
Like how did you get arcane 

2464
02:05:23,000 --> 02:05:24,600
knowledge if you were born in 
the gutter? 

2465
02:05:24,800 --> 02:05:26,920
That's unlikely. 
You know, these other people 

2466
02:05:26,920 --> 02:05:29,040
were probably born poor. 
That's why you're a eunuch. 

2467
02:05:29,040 --> 02:05:31,120
That's why you're a pirate. 
That's why you're a cut purse. 

2468
02:05:31,800 --> 02:05:37,520
But necromancer where it's like 
if you're a pirate and you went 

2469
02:05:37,520 --> 02:05:40,480
to Harvard, you know, that 
doesn't really like, I don't get

2470
02:05:40,480 --> 02:05:41,800
that. 
You know, that's weird. 

2471
02:05:42,120 --> 02:05:46,320
I mean, it'll happen every once 
in a while, but it's obscure. 

2472
02:05:46,320 --> 02:05:48,240
Those examples like that. 
It's not going to happen very 

2473
02:05:48,240 --> 02:05:50,120
often. 
Someone that has the knowledge 

2474
02:05:50,760 --> 02:05:53,840
of like this, like this is too 
obscure to to learn. 

2475
02:05:53,840 --> 02:05:56,640
If you're just born in the 
gutter, born poor, born without 

2476
02:05:56,640 --> 02:05:59,560
an education, born as an orphan,
it's very unlikely that you can 

2477
02:05:59,560 --> 02:06:01,400
learn these things at least as a
as a young person. 

2478
02:06:01,400 --> 02:06:05,240
Maybe you got through that your 
early life and came out of it 

2479
02:06:05,240 --> 02:06:09,040
and you know, that's why you're 
comfortable outside of society 

2480
02:06:09,040 --> 02:06:10,760
because you were never really a 
part of it in the first place. 

2481
02:06:10,760 --> 02:06:13,760
But still, this can't be easy to
learn. 

2482
02:06:13,760 --> 02:06:15,640
Like where do you learn 
necromancy? 

2483
02:06:15,640 --> 02:06:19,520
You got to find a an existing 
necromancer and be there like 

2484
02:06:19,880 --> 02:06:22,080
acolyte for a while. 
Would you trust this person? 

2485
02:06:22,080 --> 02:06:24,240
Wouldn't they wouldn't you be 
word they'd experiment on you? 

2486
02:06:24,760 --> 02:06:27,680
Whatever people people will do a
lot for power, though you might 

2487
02:06:27,680 --> 02:06:29,200
take a lot of risks to to do 
that. 

2488
02:06:30,040 --> 02:06:32,000
Where are they drawing their 
power from? 

2489
02:06:32,000 --> 02:06:35,200
Are these are they drawing power
from relore are they drawing 

2490
02:06:35,200 --> 02:06:37,400
power from? 
They aren't drawing power from 

2491
02:06:37,400 --> 02:06:39,760
whatever the old gods have 
because this is Essos. 

2492
02:06:39,760 --> 02:06:41,000
I don't think they can draw 
power from there. 

2493
02:06:41,000 --> 02:06:43,600
Maybe Mother Roy, this is on the
other side is the mouth of the 

2494
02:06:43,600 --> 02:06:46,520
Royne. 
Maybe the water magics actually 

2495
02:06:46,520 --> 02:06:50,720
have some sway here after all 
the drowned God, you know, patch

2496
02:06:50,720 --> 02:06:53,800
face, there's water magics 
associated with necromancy. 

2497
02:06:53,800 --> 02:06:56,960
So doesn't sound like something 
Mother Royne would do. 

2498
02:06:56,960 --> 02:07:00,200
But what do we know about Mother
Royne's real, you know, 

2499
02:07:00,480 --> 02:07:06,600
personality if she has 1. 
So I picture like I'm imagining 

2500
02:07:06,600 --> 02:07:09,200
what this shadow City looked 
like and you might have some 

2501
02:07:09,200 --> 02:07:11,440
hooded figure. 
I'm picturing all necromancers 

2502
02:07:11,440 --> 02:07:12,360
as hooded. 
I don't know why. 

2503
02:07:12,360 --> 02:07:14,440
It's just the it's the image of 
the Bain Ford, I guess. 

2504
02:07:14,440 --> 02:07:17,120
But they wouldn't all 
necessarily be hooded, but a lot

2505
02:07:17,120 --> 02:07:20,480
of them would be. 
They'd all be walking around in 

2506
02:07:20,480 --> 02:07:25,120
their robes with like a a Robert
Strong or two at their side to 

2507
02:07:25,120 --> 02:07:28,040
protect them. 
But you know, shorter, not 

2508
02:07:28,040 --> 02:07:30,400
that's 8 feet tall. 
Moving on to Cohort. 

2509
02:07:31,080 --> 02:07:34,400
We had a whole episode on Cohort
and cohort is already called the

2510
02:07:34,400 --> 02:07:37,120
city of sorcerers by some. 
So it's not surprising that 

2511
02:07:37,360 --> 02:07:40,680
necromancy be one of the many 
types of sorcery practice there.

2512
02:07:40,840 --> 02:07:42,320
It kind of has the trifecta 
there. 

2513
02:07:42,320 --> 02:07:44,800
It's got necromancy and also 
divination and blood magic, 

2514
02:07:44,800 --> 02:07:47,960
which blood magic is probably 
the most associated in the 

2515
02:07:47,960 --> 02:07:51,200
fantasy sense, and divination is
the most associated in the real 

2516
02:07:51,200 --> 02:07:53,440
world sense with necromancy, as 
we explained earlier. 

2517
02:07:54,320 --> 02:08:00,280
Honestly, if Cohort did a lot of
trade with the Dothraki, I think

2518
02:08:00,280 --> 02:08:02,800
that if you got these long 
caravans heading out to the base

2519
02:08:02,800 --> 02:08:06,640
Dothrak, undead caravan guards 
might be pretty effective. 

2520
02:08:06,640 --> 02:08:08,920
You know, you don't have to pay 
them, you don't have to feed 

2521
02:08:08,920 --> 02:08:12,200
them. 
And of course the black goat has

2522
02:08:12,200 --> 02:08:14,640
all sorts of associations. 
There's sacrifice. 

2523
02:08:14,640 --> 02:08:18,000
There's not just sacrifice of 
people, but animals too. 

2524
02:08:18,000 --> 02:08:21,440
Like is it permitted in their 
religion to raise the dead of a 

2525
02:08:21,440 --> 02:08:24,640
sacrificial victim? 
Is that like taking it back from

2526
02:08:24,640 --> 02:08:26,640
the blackers? 
Like, hey, we gave this being to

2527
02:08:26,640 --> 02:08:28,720
you, but now we're raising the 
dead and bring is that like 

2528
02:08:28,720 --> 02:08:30,240
you're taking the sacrifice 
back? 

2529
02:08:30,720 --> 02:08:33,800
You're withdrawing your 
sacrifice to the black goat and 

2530
02:08:33,800 --> 02:08:35,240
by taking the body back. 
I don't. 

2531
02:08:36,080 --> 02:08:39,080
These are questions that we'll 
have to ask the the the priests 

2532
02:08:39,080 --> 02:08:40,640
of Kohor. 
What do they think? 

2533
02:08:40,640 --> 02:08:42,160
What's their deal? 
What how do they interpret 

2534
02:08:42,160 --> 02:08:44,080
things like this? 
I would have been the most 

2535
02:08:44,080 --> 02:08:46,160
annoying kid at a seminary 
school. 

2536
02:08:46,160 --> 02:08:49,160
I'd be asking all these edgy 
questions that the priest would 

2537
02:08:49,160 --> 02:08:51,680
just be like, oh God, you're so 
annoying, kid. 

2538
02:08:52,160 --> 02:08:53,440
I got it from George Carlin, 
though. 

2539
02:08:53,440 --> 02:08:57,280
George Carlin had this bit where
he talks about being in a OK, 

2540
02:08:57,280 --> 02:08:59,280
let's say you're on a ship at 
sea and you're trying to have 

2541
02:08:59,280 --> 02:09:02,840
your last communion or your, you
know, your your say confession 

2542
02:09:02,840 --> 02:09:06,400
on the last day possible, but 
the chaplain is in a coma. 

2543
02:09:06,400 --> 02:09:08,360
What do you do? 
Is that will God forgive you? 

2544
02:09:08,520 --> 02:09:10,640
But then you cross the 
international Dateline and it 

2545
02:09:10,640 --> 02:09:12,640
becomes yesterday and the 
chaplain wakes up. 

2546
02:09:12,640 --> 02:09:16,640
Is that the are you good? 
You know, yeah, that's what 

2547
02:09:16,640 --> 02:09:17,920
we're trying to do with this 
episode. 

2548
02:09:17,920 --> 02:09:20,120
But we're we're pointing these 
questions at George RR Martin 

2549
02:09:20,720 --> 02:09:22,680
instead of that some hapless 
priest. 

2550
02:09:23,440 --> 02:09:26,000
So, yeah, Kohor a good example, 
even though we don't have a lot 

2551
02:09:26,000 --> 02:09:29,640
of specifics there, but 
certainly a place where 

2552
02:09:29,640 --> 02:09:33,280
necromancy happens. 
Let's go back even farther and 

2553
02:09:33,280 --> 02:09:36,800
further E to Ash I and the great
Empire of the Dawn. 

2554
02:09:38,640 --> 02:09:41,920
I've referenced already the long
list of magics practiced in Ash.

2555
02:09:41,920 --> 02:09:45,480
I don't need to do it again. 
But it's a long list. 

2556
02:09:45,480 --> 02:09:48,880
Nothing is forbidden there. 
If magic works better there, 

2557
02:09:48,880 --> 02:09:52,280
which it seems to, then it only 
follows that a lot of people 

2558
02:09:52,280 --> 02:09:54,920
would go there to practice an 
experiment because it's a it's a

2559
02:09:54,920 --> 02:09:58,640
good environment, both from 
permission and from the arcane 

2560
02:09:58,800 --> 02:10:02,560
environment itself. 
I picture the necromancers of 

2561
02:10:02,560 --> 02:10:05,440
Ash Eye as something like a 
Kyburn, a little bit like what 

2562
02:10:05,440 --> 02:10:08,440
we just imagined in the Shadow 
City across from Volantis. 

2563
02:10:08,640 --> 02:10:12,400
Solitary figures doing weird 
experiments in a place that 

2564
02:10:12,400 --> 02:10:15,920
tolerates such Don't ask don't 
tell environment. 

2565
02:10:16,640 --> 02:10:20,720
It's perfect for such things, 
like all sorcerers and magic 

2566
02:10:20,720 --> 02:10:23,240
practitioners aspire to live in 
such a place. 

2567
02:10:23,640 --> 02:10:26,960
Mary Maddur learned from 
Archmaester Marwin there, 

2568
02:10:26,960 --> 02:10:31,640
Learned things that sound 
frighteningly similar to what 

2569
02:10:31,640 --> 02:10:36,760
Kyburn was talking about. 
Like not necromancy, but related

2570
02:10:36,760 --> 02:10:39,080
to necromancy. 
The secrets of the flesh, the 

2571
02:10:39,080 --> 02:10:42,600
secrets of the dead that you 
learn by experimenting on the 

2572
02:10:42,600 --> 02:10:44,240
living. 
That's the kind of thing that I 

2573
02:10:44,240 --> 02:10:46,640
think Miriam Mazdur was alluding
to without saying that 

2574
02:10:46,880 --> 02:10:50,720
Archmaester Marwin as well might
have participated in or been at 

2575
02:10:50,720 --> 02:10:53,240
least OK with. 
Because remember that Kyburn 

2576
02:10:53,240 --> 02:10:56,800
quote? 
He says he refers to Marwin and 

2577
02:10:56,800 --> 02:10:58,760
how Marwin also calls them all 
Gray sheep. 

2578
02:10:59,240 --> 02:11:03,280
He's not going as far as saying 
Marwin agreed with me that it's 

2579
02:11:03,400 --> 02:11:05,800
cool to cut open bodies to 
experiment on them. 

2580
02:11:06,440 --> 02:11:08,960
But he did not say that either. 
So it's it's on the table. 

2581
02:11:09,800 --> 02:11:12,200
The spell that Miri Mazdor used 
on Drogo. 

2582
02:11:12,960 --> 02:11:15,880
A little bit necromantic 
perhaps, like he didn't die. 

2583
02:11:15,880 --> 02:11:17,440
It's another kind of semantical 
argument. 

2584
02:11:17,440 --> 02:11:21,360
He was never fully dead, but he 
may have been like effectively 

2585
02:11:21,360 --> 02:11:23,440
brain dead or something like 
that. 

2586
02:11:23,440 --> 02:11:26,040
It seemed to involve maybe a 
combination of necromancy and 

2587
02:11:26,040 --> 02:11:28,520
shadow binding. 
Again, the semantics are hard to

2588
02:11:28,520 --> 02:11:31,840
parse here. 
Is the nature of necromancy 

2589
02:11:31,840 --> 02:11:35,120
animating the fleshless with no 
concern for the soul? 

2590
02:11:35,480 --> 02:11:38,000
Is the soul trapped within, or 
does it depart at death? 

2591
02:11:38,000 --> 02:11:41,120
These are these are questions 
that real world religious 

2592
02:11:41,120 --> 02:11:44,800
scholars have debated that have 
a place in this environment as 

2593
02:11:44,800 --> 02:11:45,920
well. 
Yeah. 

2594
02:11:45,920 --> 02:11:48,600
Like if the soul departs at 
death, perhaps those were 

2595
02:11:48,600 --> 02:11:51,080
converted to their half dead 
state, have theirs trapped. 

2596
02:11:51,080 --> 02:11:54,240
Like was Drogo's soul still in 
his body when he was in that 

2597
02:11:55,120 --> 02:11:59,600
half automaton state? 
Certainly the Ironborn who are 

2598
02:11:59,840 --> 02:12:02,800
drowned for a few seconds or a 
minute, their soul probably 

2599
02:12:02,800 --> 02:12:05,720
doesn't go away. 
I'm only assuming that souls 

2600
02:12:05,720 --> 02:12:07,640
exist in Westeros. 
They probably do. 

2601
02:12:08,480 --> 02:12:11,120
But yeah, I mean, these are, 
these are interesting 

2602
02:12:11,120 --> 02:12:13,000
philosophical questions for how 
this all works. 

2603
02:12:13,720 --> 02:12:15,680
But getting back to ASCII and 
the great Empire of the Dawn, 

2604
02:12:16,160 --> 02:12:18,200
this connection between those 
two is, is something we've 

2605
02:12:18,200 --> 02:12:21,080
explored at at length. 
It may be that the Blood 

2606
02:12:21,080 --> 02:12:26,160
Emperor's betrayal, he broke the
cycle and engaged in necromancy.

2607
02:12:26,800 --> 02:12:29,320
It was part of his betrayal, 
worshipping the Blackstone that 

2608
02:12:29,320 --> 02:12:31,520
fell from the sky and engaging 
in dark arts, including 

2609
02:12:31,520 --> 02:12:35,280
necromancy. 
This may be what made ASCII what

2610
02:12:35,280 --> 02:12:38,520
it is like the curse of ASCII, 
the shadow, right? 

2611
02:12:38,840 --> 02:12:41,640
If you want more on those we we 
have an episode called Ash Eye 

2612
02:12:41,640 --> 02:12:43,720
by the Shadow and the Shadow by 
Ash Eye. 

2613
02:12:43,720 --> 02:12:46,040
So those both delve deeper into 
that concept. 

2614
02:12:46,720 --> 02:12:50,000
It could be that the necromancy 
learned in the time of the 

2615
02:12:50,000 --> 02:12:52,640
Bloodstone Emperor, he may have 
been the one to figure it out. 

2616
02:12:52,640 --> 02:12:57,480
He may be the original 
necromancer of this world and 

2617
02:12:58,560 --> 02:13:03,080
his experiments, his spells may 
be the basis for all necromancy 

2618
02:13:03,080 --> 02:13:05,720
after what he learned may have 
may be what spread elsewhere 

2619
02:13:05,720 --> 02:13:10,360
because the great Empire of the 
Dawn had such expansive hold 

2620
02:13:10,360 --> 02:13:12,680
over the world as far as we 
know. 

2621
02:13:12,680 --> 02:13:16,040
Like they are bigger than 
Valyria in terms of how much 

2622
02:13:16,040 --> 02:13:18,800
they dominated. 
So if they had this as part of 

2623
02:13:18,800 --> 02:13:22,680
their knowledge base, it may 
have spread to the many places 

2624
02:13:22,680 --> 02:13:26,160
that they ruled. 
Maybe it spread through normal 

2625
02:13:26,160 --> 02:13:28,800
channels. 
Maybe it was forbidden because 

2626
02:13:28,800 --> 02:13:32,640
it was forbidden, right? 
Even then, even 10,000 years 

2627
02:13:32,640 --> 02:13:35,800
ago, what the Bloodstone Emperor
did was considered forbidden so.

2628
02:13:35,960 --> 02:13:38,960
So maybe it was forbidden 
rather. 

2629
02:13:38,960 --> 02:13:41,920
Maybe that's the evidence that 
it existed before him, that he 

2630
02:13:41,920 --> 02:13:45,440
was tapping into powers that 
were even more ancient than he 

2631
02:13:45,440 --> 02:13:48,240
was. 
Or maybe it was just considered 

2632
02:13:48,240 --> 02:13:52,680
forbidden because it was related
to previously banned magics. 

2633
02:13:52,680 --> 02:13:55,840
Or maybe it was forbidden 
afterwards and the histories 

2634
02:13:55,960 --> 02:14:00,080
don't know which happened first,
what came first, the banning or 

2635
02:14:00,080 --> 02:14:03,800
the necromancy. 
Necromancy has never been cool. 

2636
02:14:03,800 --> 02:14:05,720
Kids. 
Don't be a necromancer. 

2637
02:14:05,720 --> 02:14:08,040
No, I'm sorry it is cool, it's 
very cool, but don't do it. 

2638
02:14:09,560 --> 02:14:11,880
It's only cool in the the 
confines of the story. 

2639
02:14:12,760 --> 02:14:15,920
So he so he may have started it.
Maybe the the the things he 

2640
02:14:16,400 --> 02:14:19,960
started were expanded on by 
later necromancers. 

2641
02:14:20,200 --> 02:14:23,400
The Bloodstone emperors like 
their their guy he got he kicked

2642
02:14:23,400 --> 02:14:27,200
it off and they all they 
expanded on what he started. 

2643
02:14:28,040 --> 02:14:30,640
Here's another one extremely far
to the east. 

2644
02:14:30,760 --> 02:14:34,360
Not nearly as well known as Asha
in the great empire of the dawn,

2645
02:14:34,360 --> 02:14:37,480
but pretty cool and creepy. 
Nephar quote. 

2646
02:14:37,880 --> 02:14:42,160
Only one part of note is to be 
found on the Shivering Sea east 

2647
02:14:42,160 --> 02:14:47,280
of the Bones, Nephar, chief city
of the Kingdom of Nagai, hemmed 

2648
02:14:47,280 --> 02:14:53,080
in by towering chalk cliffs and 
perpetually shrouded in fog When

2649
02:14:53,080 --> 02:14:57,440
seen from the harbor, an affair 
appears to be no more than a 

2650
02:14:57,440 --> 02:15:02,920
small town, but it is said that 
9/10 of the city is beneath the 

2651
02:15:02,920 --> 02:15:06,200
ground. 
For that reason, travelers call 

2652
02:15:06,200 --> 02:15:10,680
an affair the Secret City. 
By any name, the city enjoys A 

2653
02:15:10,680 --> 02:15:14,800
sinister reputation as a haunt 
of necromancers and torturers. 

2654
02:15:15,440 --> 02:15:18,400
Obviously looks a common rumor 
about these faraway cities that 

2655
02:15:18,400 --> 02:15:20,840
they have necromancers in them. 
And this is another really 

2656
02:15:20,840 --> 02:15:23,640
crazy, creepy association. 
Necromancers and torturers. 

2657
02:15:23,640 --> 02:15:27,200
OK, torture them a little too 
much, accidentally go too far 

2658
02:15:27,200 --> 02:15:28,960
and kill them. 
Well then bring in the 

2659
02:15:28,960 --> 02:15:31,200
necromancers. 
Just get right back to it. 

2660
02:15:31,200 --> 02:15:33,280
Yeah, bring you back to life to 
torture you some more. 

2661
02:15:33,280 --> 02:15:35,040
What a horrible existence that 
would be. 

2662
02:15:35,240 --> 02:15:38,880
So this is, this stands as a 
comparison to the prior 

2663
02:15:38,880 --> 02:15:42,760
comparison of Unix cut purses, 
pirates and necromancers. 

2664
02:15:42,760 --> 02:15:44,600
Now we have torturers and 
necromancers, these all these 

2665
02:15:44,600 --> 02:15:47,320
different pairings here. 
So beneath the city, that's 

2666
02:15:47,360 --> 02:15:50,000
extra creepy, though. 
This the city beneath the city 

2667
02:15:50,120 --> 02:15:52,280
that makes up most of the city, 
90% of it. 

2668
02:15:52,440 --> 02:15:55,200
So much could go on down there. 
And I know that's what George is

2669
02:15:55,200 --> 02:15:57,000
intending with this. 
He's like, what could be 

2670
02:15:57,000 --> 02:16:00,760
happening deep down in those 
dark underground places, 

2671
02:16:00,800 --> 02:16:04,680
catacombs, buried dead, hidden 
tombs and hidden arcane 

2672
02:16:04,680 --> 02:16:07,120
experiments, especially the 
necromantic sort. 

2673
02:16:07,680 --> 02:16:10,200
Yeah, you better believe it, 
friends. 

2674
02:16:10,200 --> 02:16:11,720
That's what's going on in the 
affair. 

2675
02:16:11,720 --> 02:16:14,760
Assuming any of this is remotely
accurate. 

2676
02:16:14,760 --> 02:16:16,760
And we don't have much reason to
think otherwise. 

2677
02:16:17,080 --> 02:16:20,160
And Guy used to be a much larger
and more powerful Kingdom. 

2678
02:16:20,520 --> 02:16:23,480
It's shrunk over time by the 
Jogo's nigh. 

2679
02:16:23,840 --> 02:16:26,480
I can't imagine why. 
And they're like, yeah, let's 

2680
02:16:27,000 --> 02:16:30,240
destroy that place that's a 
haunt of necromancers and 

2681
02:16:30,240 --> 02:16:32,040
torturers. 
I'm sure they're cool with that.

2682
02:16:32,040 --> 02:16:37,400
Yeah, maybe if you exported some
decent things or had a better 

2683
02:16:37,400 --> 02:16:40,320
reputation that Jogos Naya 
wouldn't mess with you so much 

2684
02:16:40,600 --> 02:16:43,600
that it might still. 
But I'm not cheering. 

2685
02:16:43,600 --> 02:16:46,160
I'm cheering to Jogos nigh on in
this example. 

2686
02:16:47,240 --> 02:16:49,639
Take down those torturers and 
necromancers, will you? 

2687
02:16:50,680 --> 02:16:54,360
To close things out, let's look 
at a few aspects of all this 

2688
02:16:54,360 --> 02:16:57,559
from a higher level. 
In terms of a recurring form of 

2689
02:16:57,559 --> 02:17:02,920
magic throughout the world, it's
pretty common in terms of a, a 

2690
02:17:02,920 --> 02:17:05,879
thing that's rumored or talked 
about, even if it's just a small

2691
02:17:05,879 --> 02:17:08,320
minority in a lot of these 
places, that just really draws a

2692
02:17:08,320 --> 02:17:13,120
lot of attention for a world 
that George keeps kind of low 

2693
02:17:13,120 --> 02:17:15,000
magic. 
There's a lot of necromancy and 

2694
02:17:15,000 --> 02:17:16,840
necromancers. 
And, and I think that's because 

2695
02:17:16,840 --> 02:17:20,040
it's this thing that I said at 
the beginning, it's a conflict 

2696
02:17:20,040 --> 02:17:21,959
magic. 
It's conflict sorcery. 

2697
02:17:21,959 --> 02:17:26,320
It creates conflict both with 
the users and the people around 

2698
02:17:26,320 --> 02:17:30,719
it that are affected by it. 
It, it's the cost that George 

2699
02:17:30,719 --> 02:17:33,719
associates with it is moral, 
ethical and social. 

2700
02:17:33,799 --> 02:17:36,160
Again, I talked before like 
necromancers don't have like 

2701
02:17:36,160 --> 02:17:39,360
friends. 
That's an antisocial thing to do

2702
02:17:40,040 --> 02:17:42,680
morally, ethically. 
Well, that's part of why people 

2703
02:17:42,680 --> 02:17:43,840
don't want to associate with 
you. 

2704
02:17:43,840 --> 02:17:46,600
It's, it's, it's troubling, it's
dark, it's potentially very 

2705
02:17:46,600 --> 02:17:49,360
evil. 
Like it's, it's a concept we we 

2706
02:17:49,360 --> 02:17:51,440
introduced at the beginning. 
Like where are the good 

2707
02:17:51,440 --> 02:17:55,639
necromancers? 
They don't really exist if 

2708
02:17:55,639 --> 02:17:59,440
they're they're only people that
occasionally use necromancy for 

2709
02:17:59,440 --> 02:18:02,799
good in extreme circumstances, 
which we've had several examples

2710
02:18:02,799 --> 02:18:05,760
of maybe throughout the this 
this episode, since some of 

2711
02:18:05,760 --> 02:18:08,040
these are are not fully played 
out, that's why I have to throw 

2712
02:18:08,040 --> 02:18:11,040
the maybe in there. 
So as much as George doesn't 

2713
02:18:11,040 --> 02:18:15,240
love the former, which is, you 
know, telekinetics and lightning

2714
02:18:15,240 --> 02:18:19,480
bolts and fireballs, things like
that, he loves this stuff where 

2715
02:18:19,480 --> 02:18:23,160
it's it's magic that puts the 
human heart in conflict with 

2716
02:18:23,160 --> 02:18:26,520
itself or it's the undead heart 
in conflict because someone else

2717
02:18:26,520 --> 02:18:28,040
is in control. 
I don't know. 

2718
02:18:28,760 --> 02:18:31,600
It's, it's hard to explain, 
isn't it? 

2719
02:18:31,600 --> 02:18:35,000
And given that magic seems to 
ebb and flow in the world and 

2720
02:18:35,000 --> 02:18:39,360
that we're in a peak or entering
a peak, we might see more 

2721
02:18:39,360 --> 02:18:41,680
necromantic magic, we might see 
it work better. 

2722
02:18:41,680 --> 02:18:45,240
We might see Kyburn's success 
built on by other people. 

2723
02:18:45,240 --> 02:18:47,639
Other people might try this. 
And it's like, well, now this is

2724
02:18:47,639 --> 02:18:51,040
going to work. 
Thoros is accidentally raising 

2725
02:18:51,040 --> 02:18:52,520
the dead. 
What other accidents and 

2726
02:18:52,520 --> 02:18:55,760
mistakes and oops, wow that 
works kind of things will happen

2727
02:18:55,760 --> 02:18:57,879
in places elsewhere in the 
world. 

2728
02:18:58,760 --> 02:19:01,240
That might explain the others 
returning at all. 

2729
02:19:01,480 --> 02:19:03,879
Is it a chicken and egg thing 
while the others returning is 

2730
02:19:03,879 --> 02:19:06,040
part of why magic returned? 
Or is the returning of magic 

2731
02:19:06,040 --> 02:19:08,440
that's helping to bring the 
others back and and their 

2732
02:19:08,440 --> 02:19:11,600
associated magics? 
If the others are back, then so 

2733
02:19:11,600 --> 02:19:13,840
are is their necromancy their 
version of it? 

2734
02:19:14,520 --> 02:19:16,680
Yeah. 
Thoros accidentally wielding 

2735
02:19:16,680 --> 02:19:20,280
great power and that power 
passed on by its recipient. 

2736
02:19:20,280 --> 02:19:24,040
These are these are strange 
times that even the characters 

2737
02:19:24,040 --> 02:19:27,040
in world don't know entirely how
to wrestle with it all. 

2738
02:19:27,879 --> 02:19:33,080
So it's neat how George has kept
necromancy prominent on the 

2739
02:19:33,080 --> 02:19:36,480
fringes of the world, far away 
in places like Asha and Nephair,

2740
02:19:36,480 --> 02:19:41,600
but very consistently. 
Which I think is great set up 

2741
02:19:41,600 --> 02:19:45,879
for the rest of the story in 
which it seems to be popping up 

2742
02:19:45,879 --> 02:19:49,480
all over with the others, with 
the Ironborn, with relorists, 

2743
02:19:49,840 --> 02:19:52,520
and maybe even with the the 
children of the forest and, and 

2744
02:19:52,520 --> 02:19:53,760
with cold hands and things like 
that. 

2745
02:19:53,760 --> 02:19:58,360
So to think that there might 
even be more versions of undead 

2746
02:19:58,360 --> 02:20:01,520
magic of necromancy that we 
haven't even seen yet is 

2747
02:20:01,520 --> 02:20:04,760
something we should consider. 
There may be enough already, but

2748
02:20:04,760 --> 02:20:07,440
there might be more. 
I mean with magic peaking, who 

2749
02:20:07,440 --> 02:20:10,960
knows what other forms of magic 
or long gone forms of magic 

2750
02:20:10,960 --> 02:20:14,840
might be around or return. 
People like Thoros might realize

2751
02:20:14,840 --> 02:20:17,560
they can do this. 
And they won't have Thoros's 

2752
02:20:17,560 --> 02:20:20,000
restraint. 
Like Benero was all about it. 

2753
02:20:20,000 --> 02:20:22,960
He's like, yeah, everybody's 
going to be alive again and 

2754
02:20:22,960 --> 02:20:24,920
living the eternal summer. 
It's going to be great. 

2755
02:20:26,280 --> 02:20:28,840
Thoros is the exception. 
He's like, I don't know about 

2756
02:20:28,840 --> 02:20:31,320
that. 
So, yeah, there's got to be 

2757
02:20:31,320 --> 02:20:36,400
places in the world of A Song of
Ice and Fire that necromancy 

2758
02:20:37,040 --> 02:20:38,840
happens that we don't know 
about. 

2759
02:20:38,840 --> 02:20:41,480
The histories don't tell us 
because they've successfully 

2760
02:20:41,480 --> 02:20:43,800
concealed it. 
Just as there are rumors that 

2761
02:20:43,800 --> 02:20:48,000
may be unfounded, there are 
places that escaped scrutiny. 

2762
02:20:48,240 --> 02:20:50,960
Maybe in a place like Lang or in
Ye T. 

2763
02:20:50,960 --> 02:20:53,640
Those weren't mentioned. 
Do they have necromancy in Ye T?

2764
02:20:54,280 --> 02:20:56,280
Probably, but it isn't 
mentioned. 

2765
02:20:56,280 --> 02:21:00,080
It might be banned, it might be 
looked on differently, I don't 

2766
02:21:00,080 --> 02:21:02,200
know. 
Definitely there's lots of magic

2767
02:21:02,200 --> 02:21:06,760
associated with that place, but 
this specific one has escaped 

2768
02:21:06,760 --> 02:21:09,280
mention. 
But it's a good example of where

2769
02:21:09,280 --> 02:21:11,720
there could be more Cornish, 
James says. 

2770
02:21:11,720 --> 02:21:14,600
So what the quote told me is the
Lannisters have a habit of 

2771
02:21:14,600 --> 02:21:16,920
falling foul of prophecies 
they've tried to avert. 

2772
02:21:16,920 --> 02:21:19,680
Oh, yeah, very good. 
That's a great point. 

2773
02:21:19,680 --> 02:21:23,280
We're referring back to the the 
prophecy of the hood of the 

2774
02:21:23,280 --> 02:21:27,040
Morgon Bainfort, who said that 
the sons who killed him would 

2775
02:21:27,040 --> 02:21:31,360
also die. 
Yeah, we got Cersei and the the 

2776
02:21:31,360 --> 02:21:34,760
Valencar. 
And we also have maybe the 

2777
02:21:34,760 --> 02:21:38,600
indirect one that's less about 
the Lannisters and more about 

2778
02:21:38,600 --> 02:21:41,480
the Valyrians associated with 
the Lannisters, which is that 

2779
02:21:41,480 --> 02:21:43,920
the gold of Castle Rock would be
the Doom of Valyria. 

2780
02:21:44,480 --> 02:21:48,720
So that's perhaps that's not 
the, that's maybe not quite 

2781
02:21:48,720 --> 02:21:50,520
connected in the way you mean, 
but I thought of it. 

2782
02:21:51,080 --> 02:21:54,960
Very good catch, Dornus Dame. 
As usual, our trivia question, 

2783
02:21:55,320 --> 02:21:58,080
it was the prologue is the first
time we see necromancy in 

2784
02:21:58,080 --> 02:22:00,000
action. 
But who is the first person we 

2785
02:22:00,000 --> 02:22:04,240
learn that's been accused of it?
The answer is Kyburn. 

2786
02:22:04,240 --> 02:22:06,880
Kyburn, of course. 
Good old Kyburn. 

2787
02:22:07,560 --> 02:22:10,880
That old Kyburn. 
Yeah, I think I might have 

2788
02:22:10,880 --> 02:22:14,120
mentioned it before, but I had 
an ex who had horrible 

2789
02:22:14,120 --> 02:22:17,880
nightmares of Kyburn just 
picturing him and his 

2790
02:22:17,880 --> 02:22:19,200
experiments. 
I get it. 

2791
02:22:19,200 --> 02:22:21,200
Like, that dude's creepy. 
He's one of the creepiest there 

2792
02:22:21,200 --> 02:22:22,240
is. 
Like the mad scientists 

2793
02:22:22,240 --> 02:22:24,920
experimenting on people. 
Meanwhile, I've had nightmares 

2794
02:22:25,000 --> 02:22:26,400
of the mountain of Gregor 
Clooney. 

2795
02:22:27,280 --> 02:22:29,240
Both sides of it, right? 
Yeah, that's that's pretty 

2796
02:22:29,240 --> 02:22:31,680
terrifying. 
So we mentioned a lot of our 

2797
02:22:31,680 --> 02:22:34,080
previous episodes and there's 
probably more that I didn't 

2798
02:22:34,080 --> 02:22:39,880
mention, but for sure our Hal 
Hal Lofsten episode, The Black 

2799
02:22:39,880 --> 02:22:45,320
Bat of Harrenhal, Mel Young, 
Melisandre Thoros of Mir, The 

2800
02:22:45,320 --> 02:22:49,000
Curious Case of Cold Hands, our 
third Bloodraven episode, which 

2801
02:22:49,000 --> 02:22:51,000
deals with his life after going 
to the wall. 

2802
02:22:51,400 --> 02:22:53,360
His early life is a lot less 
magical. 

2803
02:22:53,360 --> 02:22:55,120
It's more black fire rebellion 
oriented. 

2804
02:22:55,120 --> 02:22:57,080
But of course, those are good 
episodes too. 

2805
02:22:57,440 --> 02:22:59,800
Of course, I mentioned our Ash 
Eye by the Shadow and the Shadow

2806
02:22:59,800 --> 02:23:02,400
by Ash Eye episodes. 
Great Empire, The Dawn. 

2807
02:23:03,000 --> 02:23:05,760
We have the episode on Cohor. 
Like I said, probably some more 

2808
02:23:05,760 --> 02:23:07,440
that I forgot to mention, but 
that's a lot. 

2809
02:23:07,440 --> 02:23:10,120
That's a nice list. 
Check out any of those episodes 

2810
02:23:10,120 --> 02:23:13,800
if you want to stay immersed. 
Thanks again to Nina. 

2811
02:23:14,080 --> 02:23:17,240
Happy birthday again, Nina. 
Thanks to Joey Townsend for our 

2812
02:23:17,240 --> 02:23:19,720
great intro music. 
Thanks to Michael Klarfeld for 

2813
02:23:19,720 --> 02:23:23,280
our intro video and for the maps
you see behind us. 

2814
02:23:23,280 --> 02:23:29,520
You can get your own Claradox 
map, KLARADO x.de. 

2815
02:23:29,680 --> 02:23:32,800
You can order the file and then 
go take it to a local printer 

2816
02:23:32,880 --> 02:23:36,040
like a Kinko's or something like
that, and they will make it in 

2817
02:23:36,040 --> 02:23:38,720
whatever size you ask them to. 
It's fantastic. 

2818
02:23:39,480 --> 02:23:42,880
Check it out and we'll be back 
not next week, but the week 

2819
02:23:42,880 --> 02:23:45,400
after with another new episode. 
Well. 

2820
02:23:45,880 --> 02:23:47,760
Next week for an exciting 
reason. 

2821
02:23:47,760 --> 02:23:49,800
That's right, Ashaya's mother is
getting married. 

2822
02:23:49,800 --> 02:23:52,880
Yeah, on 4/20. 
On 4/20, we're going to Vegas. 

2823
02:23:52,880 --> 02:23:54,320
Yeah, so. 
Anyway. 

2824
02:23:54,560 --> 02:23:56,840
We'll be back. 
So we'll be back the week after 

2825
02:23:56,840 --> 02:23:58,440
with more. 
You know what to do in the 

2826
02:23:58,440 --> 02:24:01,960
meantime, Valar Riritis.