1 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:52,160 Robert goes to see Liana right away, as soon as he arrives at 2 00:00:52,160 --> 00:00:54,280 Winterfell after a very long journey. 3 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:58,680 It's first on his list, apart from perhaps basic hellos. 4 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:03,600 He still Pines for her, perhaps as much as he still hates the 5 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:06,480 man he killed for stealing him away from her. 6 00:01:06,960 --> 00:01:11,040 Or so he says. He believes what he says. 7 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:13,480 But is that really what happened? 8 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:18,280 Ned, his best friend, does not corroborate this in his own 9 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:21,040 thoughts. He corroborates the anger and 10 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:23,880 the love, but not the stealing away part. 11 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:27,920 In fact, Ned doesn't really have negative thoughts about Rhaegar 12 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:30,440 at all. Given that Robert claims Rhaegar 13 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:34,840 kidnapped and raped Lyanna, this is telling to say the least. 14 00:01:35,320 --> 00:01:38,080 What exactly it tells us is where it gets tricky. 15 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:40,800 However. Later in the book we learn about 16 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:44,880 the Tower of Joy, where Liana and Rhaegar went sometime after 17 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:49,000 this kidnapping slash elopement, where she died just as Ned found 18 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:50,480 her. We learn also of the Tourney of 19 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:54,080 Harrenhal, the event that set up Rhaegar and Liana's meeting, 20 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:58,400 where the Night of the Laughing Tree made their appearance and 21 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:01,880 where Rhaegar named Liana Queen of Love and Beauty, laying the 22 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:05,000 blue rose Laurel in her lap in front of his own wife and 23 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:07,880 everybody else like her betrothed Robert. 24 00:02:08,479 --> 00:02:13,160 Like Illyrio said, however, to crown her is to kill her, in 25 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:17,160 this case crowning her as the Queen of Love and Beauty forever 26 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:18,880 after. Liana is associated with that 27 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:22,400 blue rose Garland, and it in turn is associated with her 28 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:24,920 doom. What started at the tourney 29 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:29,440 ended at the Tower of Joy and this kidnapping slash elopement 30 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:32,520 of Liana and Rhaegar is in between. 31 00:02:32,920 --> 00:02:35,880 Their disappearance is that mysterious bridge between these 32 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:39,240 two other huge equally mysterious Seminole, A Song of 33 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:42,560 Ice and Fire mysteries. Along the way we learn how these 34 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:46,200 events are associated with Princess slash Prince that was 35 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:48,720 promised the Song of Ice and Fire. 36 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:51,880 Lots of other prophetic things. And this is one of the key 37 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:54,680 sparks that lit the flame of Robert's Rebellion in the 1st 38 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:56,360 place. The very downfall of House 39 00:02:56,360 --> 00:03:00,240 Targaryen can be pinned on this moment by simply removing the 40 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:03,800 encounter of Leona and Rhaegar, the abduction, or whatever you 41 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:06,000 want to call it. Everything changes. 42 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:08,840 Aries may still have lost the crown, but there may not have 43 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:10,800 been civil war. He may have lost it to his own 44 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:14,640 son rather than to Robert. There probably wouldn't have 45 00:03:14,640 --> 00:03:17,280 been a civil war at all. Of course, this is not a what if 46 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:18,600 episode. We're not trying to figure out 47 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:20,320 what would have happened instead. 48 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:23,960 Nevertheless, it goes to show the importance of Lyanna and 49 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:26,560 Rhaegar's relationship, made all the more intriguing by the 50 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:30,200 knowledge that they surely had some idea of the political 51 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:33,320 turmoil they would be causing. That said, they couldn't have 52 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:37,720 foreseen Aries burning Rickard and strangling Brandon, nor the 53 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:41,440 civil war that followed. But she was betrothed and he was 54 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:43,680 married with children, so they had to know it would cause 55 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:47,360 problems. Regardless of their reasoning or 56 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:50,560 what have you. Truly, it's a great story even 57 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:53,080 without all the other huge ramifications and surrounding 58 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:55,080 mysteries. For example, we're not going to 59 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:58,760 attempt to solve what Rhaegar believed about the prophecy or 60 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:01,240 really what happened at the Tower of Joy. 61 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:04,400 We're those are highly relevant things. 62 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:07,680 But we're really just focused on this encounter, what happened 63 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:10,280 just before, what set it up, what it led to. 64 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:13,320 We have many questions and we have all that. 65 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:16,880 More on this episode of History of Westeros podcast. 66 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:22,320 Hello and welcome back to another episode. 67 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:27,840 It is approximately 3:00 here in Atlanta, GA and this is when we 68 00:04:27,840 --> 00:04:30,480 stream on Sundays. When we do stream, which is most 69 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:32,800 Sundays, 3:00 Eastern on YouTube. 70 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:36,320 Afterwards, you can catch the video still on YouTube, or if 71 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:38,600 you wait a little while, you can catch an edited version on 72 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:42,480 Spotify or the audio only version anywhere you catch 73 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:46,520 podcasts, and that will be ad free if you check it out on 74 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:49,480 Patreon. This episode was chosen by 75 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:52,240 Patrons during the Topics Moot 2024. 76 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:56,120 I believe I misspoke, calling a previous episode the 7th episode 77 00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:57,360 of Topics Moot. It was the 8th. 78 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:00,120 This is the 9th. We've got three more after this. 79 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:03,040 We're finishing the year strong with Topics Moot Topics. 80 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:04,400 Oh wait, did I count wrong again? 81 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:07,280 Maybe this is the 10th, I don't know. 82 00:05:07,280 --> 00:05:09,520 We're going to finish before the end of the year anyway. 83 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:11,720 I'm better at writing the episodes than counting the 84 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:14,520 numbers, that's for sure. Also, big thanks to 85 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:18,600 ninagoodqueenalley.tumblr.com. Of course, that's one L and 86 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:21,160 Ally. She provided a huge amount of 87 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:23,560 great notes for this one, even more than usual. 88 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,360 She's always extremely helpful, but she particularly loves this 89 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:29,760 topic, has given it a lot of thought, got me started in a lot 90 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:33,080 of places I hadn't considered, and I built on that a bit. 91 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:34,880 And yeah, just very thankful for that. 92 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:38,760 Her latest post on goodqueenalley.tumblr.com roof 93 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:41,560 is a question about Sarah Targaryen and whether or not she 94 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:43,200 owns slaves. Interesting. 95 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:46,840 If you have questions for us, certainly drop them here in the 96 00:05:46,840 --> 00:05:49,520 live stream if you're watching, or send them to 97 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:53,600 westeroshistory@gmail.com or catch us on any social media 98 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:54,720 site. We're pretty much everywhere. 99 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:56,800 Trivia question. Let's start with that. 100 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:01,120 Robert and Liana was a ship that never sailed, but Robert did 101 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:04,920 name a ship after her. What did he call this so-called 102 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:09,920 beautiful war galley? Yeah, it's a beautiful war 103 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:11,640 galley. That's actually what he named 104 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:14,800 the ship. That's not usually what you call 105 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:15,840 war galley. It's beautiful. 106 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:19,640 No, But backing up just a second, Ashea wants me to remind 107 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:20,920 you all that we're now in blue sky. 108 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:23,920 We have migrated over there like the First Men, from Essos to 109 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:26,440 Westeros across the. Land there for a while, but 110 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:30,880 we're using Blue Sky now. History of Westeros is at 111 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:34,160 historyofwesteros.com. We're just our website, 112 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:39,280 imashea@historyofwesteros.com. If Aziz or Sean make a personal 113 00:06:39,280 --> 00:06:42,760 account, they will be dancing, Sean at History of Westeros and 114 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:46,240 Aziz at History of Westeros. So I hope to see you there. 115 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:48,280 Yeah, I hope to see you there. The skies are very blue. 116 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:51,440 So let's go through real quick what the different sections in 117 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:53,520 this episode are. Do a little set up and then dive 118 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:55,880 right in. And we're going to start with 119 00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:59,280 key questions. Then why not an abduction, a 120 00:06:59,280 --> 00:07:03,840 question of marriage? Where and how the fallout, and 121 00:07:03,840 --> 00:07:06,720 then assuming we have time, we've got a whole bunch of Liana 122 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:10,720 parallels, especially Sansa and Aria, but a quite a few others 123 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:13,680 after that. So let's do that. 124 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:16,240 Let's make our way through all of that and have some fun. 125 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:19,960 We'll start with the episode as we often do when dealing with 126 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:23,840 mysteries, which is we'll lay out what we know, the most solid 127 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:26,760 information, and then gradually move towards the things we know 128 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:29,400 less, the things we're guessing or theorizing, and we're 129 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:32,520 imagining, filling in the blanks of possibilities, all that. 130 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:35,800 So we'll start with the Clash of Kings, Danny Four, that most 131 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:39,360 famous of scenes, the visions in the House of the Undying, where 132 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:45,080 we actually get dialogue from Rhaegar himself, and we even see 133 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:48,400 Princess Elia and their young son Prince Agon quote. 134 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:51,920 Will you make a song for him? The woman asked. 135 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:54,840 He has a song. The man replied. 136 00:07:54,840 --> 00:07:58,680 He is the Prince that was promised, and his is the song of 137 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:01,400 ice and fire. He looked up when he said it, 138 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:05,440 and his eyes met Danny's and it seemed as if he saw her standing 139 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:08,080 there beyond the door. There must be one more. 140 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:12,040 He said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in 141 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:16,000 the bed, she could not say. The dragon has three heads. 142 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:20,160 He went to the window seat, picked up a harp and ran his 143 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:23,640 fingers lightly over its silvery strings. 144 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:26,560 Yeah, Liana and Rhaegar isn't just a mystery to the readers, 145 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:29,720 it's a mystery in world. It's a double whammy that way. 146 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:33,559 Danny doesn't have much personal information on her brother. 147 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:36,880 She never met him, and Viserys was really young, so didn't 148 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:38,799 really know him very well either, so she couldn't get that 149 00:08:38,799 --> 00:08:42,039 much from him. The opportunity is, or maybe 150 00:08:42,039 --> 00:08:44,240 was, and maybe the opportunity has already been lost for her to 151 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:45,680 learn from Barristan. We'll see. 152 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:50,440 But that is somebody who's apov that has some information on 153 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:52,360 Rhaegar and a little bit on Lyanna. 154 00:08:52,600 --> 00:08:56,040 Same goes for another Kingsguard night, Sir Jaime Lannister, who 155 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:58,800 missed the majority of the Tourney of Harrenhal but knew 156 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:02,120 Rhaegar and Aries. Tywin tried to marry Cersei to 157 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:03,680 Rhaegar. So there's that. 158 00:09:03,680 --> 00:09:07,120 And instead, Cersei married Robert, who whispered Lyanna in 159 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:09,400 her ear on their wedding night. Yeah, that that worked out great 160 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:11,000 for her, for both of them, really. 161 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:13,720 If you aren't looking closely, you may not realize how deeply 162 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:17,040 her death impacted so, so many characters. 163 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:20,960 The sheer number of POV characters that mention her or 164 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:23,560 that reference her is, well, I didn't like go quite so far as 165 00:09:23,560 --> 00:09:25,080 to actually count that, but it's a lot. 166 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:26,560 And the count's probably going to grow. 167 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:29,560 I'm sure we're going to see more mentions of her in the future. 168 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:33,120 Even Kevin Lannister in his solo chapter briefly thinks of Lyanna 169 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:36,720 like, yeah, even her, even him. He may not have known much about 170 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:39,320 her and and he's dead anyway so we won't be getting more from 171 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:44,160 him, but it's still noteworthy. And Maester Eamonn, he may have 172 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:47,240 corresponded with Rhaegar on a number of matters of family and 173 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:51,800 prophecy and such, but unless he wrote some stuff down that was 174 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:55,000 is going to be figured out later or discovered and and Sam isn't 175 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:57,880 there to do that, that's probably another literal dead 176 00:09:57,880 --> 00:09:59,840 end in in terms of future information. 177 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:03,320 Ned couldn't have learned all the details given how little he 178 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:05,560 had with Lyanna when he found her. 179 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:07,600 They didn't exactly have time to talk about it. 180 00:10:07,600 --> 00:10:09,760 She was in her on her deathbed already apparently. 181 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:12,840 Or if he somehow did, well, he's dead too. 182 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:14,800 We can't get any more information out of him either, 183 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:17,120 most likely. So we shall learn no more from a 184 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:19,160 lot of these characters that have given us some info. 185 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:23,200 Though I should say that when all is said and done, or even 186 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:26,280 when we get another book, some of Ned's chapters might look 187 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:28,760 different in retrospect, giving new information about Leona. 188 00:10:28,760 --> 00:10:31,800 Certain callbacks or Easter eggs he might not have ever caught 189 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:34,520 might be found. George is awfully good at that. 190 00:10:34,680 --> 00:10:36,680 Catelyn has information for us as well. 191 00:10:36,680 --> 00:10:39,280 Surprisingly or not surprisingly if you've been paying close 192 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:41,360 attention, it's not from things Ned told her. 193 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:45,200 Because Ned, he hasn't said much about not just Jon Snow, but 194 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:48,440 about Leona and about Brandon. He didn't even really tell his 195 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:50,600 kids the truth about what happened to Brandon and and his 196 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:54,800 father. He gave them the the PG version 197 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:57,440 basically. So Caitlin didn't learn a lot 198 00:10:57,440 --> 00:11:00,800 from Ned on that. But the Tully and the Tully's 199 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:02,520 weren't at the attorney of Harrenhal so she didn't learn 200 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:05,160 anything there. But she was about to marry 201 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:10,160 Brandon until Brandon diverted his plans to get married to her 202 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:13,000 to go deal with the abduction of his sister. 203 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:16,440 It was a a few days from happening, Catelyn was betrothed 204 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:20,240 for six years to Brandon and then just a right before, like 205 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:21,760 days before they were going to get married. 206 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:23,440 Nope. And then of course, she married 207 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:26,920 Ned instead. So it was a family matter, but a 208 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:29,120 royal family matter. And with these several great 209 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:32,280 houses mixed in, which means it's a matter of history as 210 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:34,400 well. It's very personal, but it's 211 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:37,840 also part of the public record because the the doings of kings 212 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:42,120 and high Lords and all their families is of course a big part 213 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:44,200 of history, especially when it leads to civil war. 214 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:47,440 So before we get too deeper in the personal elements, let's 215 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:51,800 balance this out a bit with how the mystery looks to those in 216 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:53,880 world who don't have those connections. 217 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:56,560 Quote. As cold winds hammered the city, 218 00:11:56,800 --> 00:12:00,920 King Aries the Second turned to his pyromancers, charging them 219 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:03,680 to drive the winter off with their magics. 220 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:08,200 Huge green fires burned along the walls of the Red Keep for a 221 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:11,480 moon's turn. Prince Rhaegar was not in the 222 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:15,560 city to observe them, however, nor could he be found in 223 00:12:15,560 --> 00:12:19,800 Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son Aegon. 224 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:24,080 With the coming of the new year, the Crown Prince had taken to 225 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:27,760 the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and 226 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:31,600 confidants on a journey that would ultimately lead him back 227 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:34,800 to the Riverlands. Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, 228 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:40,520 where Rhaegar would once again come face to face with Lyanna 229 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:45,720 Stark of Winterfell and with her light, a fire that would consume 230 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:51,520 his house and kin and all those he loved and half the realm 231 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:55,160 besides. But that tale is too well known 232 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:57,840 to warrant repeating here. Too well known. 233 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:00,800 Every single one of us would have wanted that to be repeated 234 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:04,840 to Air Yandel, darn you. But it's actually, there's 235 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:07,760 actually A twist here. It's so known known that it's 236 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:10,600 been changed. What we just read to you was the 237 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:12,560 original text in the World of Ice and Fire. 238 00:13:12,560 --> 00:13:14,360 But this is actually what it says now. 239 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:15,840 This is what most of you have seen. 240 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:21,400 Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark 241 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:25,200 of Winterfell and carried her off, lighting a fire that would 242 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:29,880 consume his house and kin and all those he loved and half the 243 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:32,400 realm besides. So to clarify there, the 244 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:36,320 difference is where Rhaegar would once come again face to 245 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:39,600 face with Lyanna Stark of Winterfell versus fell upon 246 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:41,680 Lyanna Stark of Winterfell and carried her off. 247 00:13:42,680 --> 00:13:46,720 Those are very different, right? So the change made there makes 248 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:49,480 it much more clearly an abduction in the record. 249 00:13:49,680 --> 00:13:51,840 Obviously, the truth is not necessarily what was written 250 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:55,440 there, but that makes sense. Remember who was the World of 251 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:57,680 Ice and Fire written for? Robert. 252 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:01,600 So it's definitely going to want to reflect Robert's beliefs 253 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:02,720 here. It's not going to say, yeah, 254 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:04,040 we're not sure what happened here. 255 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:06,160 No, Robert would be mad about that. 256 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:09,000 He would want it clarified. So this makes a lot of sense. 257 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:12,600 Even though Robert died before the book was given to him, it 258 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:14,040 still would have been conceived that way. 259 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:17,440 And it makes sense for story purposes to have that be the, 260 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:19,960 the, the party line, the the common belief. 261 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:22,600 And this is how Danny thinks of it, right? 262 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:24,280 That's, this is how she perceives it. 263 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:26,800 When Barristan brings up the tourney of Harrenhal, Danny not 264 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:29,760 only notes that Rhaegar crowned Liana queen of love and beauty, 265 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:33,400 but says Rhaegar stole her away from her betrothed. 266 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:36,840 So even Danny thinks that. And now, of course, again, she 267 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:38,880 didn't know her brother. So this isn't like some opinion 268 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:40,680 she formed on her own. It's what she's been told. 269 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:43,200 Referring back to the original part of the quote, there too, 270 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:46,960 there's winter and the fire of the pyromancer. 271 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:50,120 She got a little ice and fire going there, followed. 272 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:52,640 This is all following the false spring. 273 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:54,080 This is a really important point. 274 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:58,120 It's easy to lose sight of why this matters because consider 275 00:14:58,120 --> 00:14:59,840 the prophecy. Now we don't know the insurance 276 00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:02,520 and outs of what Rhaegar actually believed, but we do 277 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:03,680 know he believed in the prophecy. 278 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:05,920 We can definitely say that much for sure. 279 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:07,680 Put yourself in his position here. 280 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:11,760 He is pretty sure he can't have another child with his wife. 281 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:15,880 He meets Liana, then he goes back to King's Landing after the 282 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:19,440 tournament and the weather changes really quickly, 283 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:21,680 dramatically quickly. It was expected to be a spring, 284 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:26,840 but instead it becomes winter. He's already seen the comet, 285 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:31,400 he's already seen other signs. So it really looks like a more 286 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:33,720 and more signs are actually happening, more and more signs 287 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:35,560 of the prophecy that he's been kind of waiting his whole life 288 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:40,360 for and the urgency of it because, oh, the cold winds are 289 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:42,520 blowing. I thought I had more time, 290 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:44,040 right? I thought this was going to play 291 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:45,400 out more. He hasn't even had that third 292 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:48,200 child yet. He and he, as we saw in that 293 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:51,400 opening quote, he told his wife that that third child, the third 294 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:53,640 head of the dragon was extremely important. 295 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:58,040 So Nina coins a term here that I absolutely love, a sense of 296 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:02,360 augural immediacy, just showing how the timeline on this 297 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:04,760 prophecy was not what Rhaegar thought it was. 298 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:07,240 Of course, it's still not what he thought it was by the end, 299 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:10,200 but if you put ourselves in his shoes, he would have thought, 300 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:13,240 OK, it's coming. Oh no, now it's coming sooner 301 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:14,960 than I thought. This horrible winter, this is a 302 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:16,640 really bad sudden winter. This is it. 303 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:20,800 This is it's happening. So he needed to act quickly or 304 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:22,400 he'd miss his chance to save the world. 305 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:26,440 And that's really important. So in other words, to put that 306 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:30,000 more succinctly, the dramatic shift in weather caused, in 307 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:33,080 turn, a huge shift in how Rhaegar perceived the timeline 308 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:36,160 of the prophecy unfolding. So when the tourney was actually 309 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:39,080 happening, Rhaegar probably didn't think it was imminent. 310 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:41,760 He probably thought it was close, maybe 10 years, maybe 311 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:44,680 five years, not a month or two away, especially because he 312 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:46,480 didn't even have a third child yet. 313 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:50,400 And that was crucial to him. Maybe even at that point during 314 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:53,040 the tournament, he might not have yet given up on the idea of 315 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:55,400 having a child with with a third child with Elia. 316 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:58,080 It may not have yet been clear that she couldn't do that. 317 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:01,560 It's not clear when that idea was put aside. 318 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:04,160 Like yeah, no, she she just can't handle a third child. 319 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:05,319 She can't go through a third pregnancy. 320 00:17:05,319 --> 00:17:07,480 It it might not happen right away with my point. 321 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:08,880 So there's a little bit of wiggle room there in the 322 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:12,480 timeline. And I don't know why he thought 323 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:14,960 it would be Liana like why her in particular? 324 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:16,440 That's something we'll talk about as well. 325 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:19,520 Now he already believed his second child, the son was the 326 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:21,200 son of a of a song of ice and fire. 327 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:25,280 So he doesn't think that about the third child he, even though 328 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:28,280 that turned out to be John. So even though the John checks 329 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:30,160 the boxes way better, it's not what Rhaegar thought was 330 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:31,240 happening. He thought he was adding the 331 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:34,720 third head of the dragon to support his son Aegon, not the 332 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:36,720 one who would actually be the one. 333 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:40,200 And just how the signs of the prophecy were there. 334 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:42,080 So were the signs of spring, which is why it's called the 335 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:45,200 fall spring and why it just was very surprising to to everyone, 336 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:48,040 even the maesters and all that. So it it did have sort of a 337 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:51,560 supernatural feel to it, perhaps that the winter came so 338 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:54,040 suddenly, which would have just pushed Rhaegar even more. 339 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:59,040 So another mystery for another day, but highly associated is 340 00:17:59,120 --> 00:18:01,920 why Rhaegar chose Leon, of course, specifically like what 341 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:03,480 was her? Is it just because they fell for 342 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:05,080 each other? Is there more to it than that? 343 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:07,680 That's that's a mystery we can't really get at to without more 344 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:09,680 information, I don't think. But it's something worth 345 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:12,920 pointing out again. The fact that he already had the 346 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:16,080 child that he thought was the Prince that was promised implies 347 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:18,960 that he didn't think her northern blood was necessarily 348 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:20,920 important. But maybe anyway. 349 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:23,960 But the answer might be a twist here. 350 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:25,520 Some of you all may have considered this, some of you 351 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:29,760 maybe not. That she chose him, not the 352 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:32,240 other way around. Or it can be both. 353 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:34,520 They both chose each other because they both had reasons to 354 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:36,360 do this. It wasn't just one following the 355 00:18:36,360 --> 00:18:38,920 other's lead. It was they both had reasons to 356 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:41,520 do this as we'll see moving through this episode. 357 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:47,440 But here's how history seemingly views the rest of what we've 358 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:49,880 just discussed the the end of all this story where the end 359 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:52,960 point of their abduction slash disappearance where it leads 360 00:18:53,360 --> 00:18:55,920 quote. What followed Prince Rhaegar's 361 00:18:55,920 --> 00:19:00,160 infamous abduction of Lyanna Stark was the ruin of House 362 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:03,120 Targaryen. The full depth of King Eris's 363 00:19:03,120 --> 00:19:07,280 madness was subsequently revealed in his depraved actions 364 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:11,640 against Lord Stark, his heir, and their supporters after they 365 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:14,520 demanded redress for Rhaegar's wrongs. 366 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:18,840 Instead of granting them fair hearing, King Ares had them 367 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:22,000 brutally slain. Then followed these murders by 368 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:27,600 demanding that Lord John Aaron execute his former wards Robert 369 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:32,080 Baratheon and Eddard Starr. Many now agree that the true 370 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:36,400 start of Robert's Rebellion began with Lord Aaron's refusal 371 00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:40,320 and his courageous calling of his banners in the defense of 372 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:44,240 justice. Absolutely that is true, that is 373 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:46,200 how most of the fandom and in world believes. 374 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:49,000 The start of Robert Rebellion with Lord John's refusal. 375 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:51,840 But of course Lord John's refusal would not have been 376 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:55,480 needed if this disappearance hadn't happened. 377 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:58,040 Lyanna's disappearance for whatever actual reasons. 378 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:01,520 Again, what they perceive to be the reason is what they act on, 379 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:04,320 not the the actual truth they didn't have they weren't Privy 380 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:06,160 to. So they saw it as a kidnapping, 381 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:08,920 they saw it as an abduction. And of course these so-called 382 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,080 depraved actions. And to be fair. 383 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:13,360 They're not entirely wrong about that. 384 00:20:13,360 --> 00:20:17,320 Even if Lyanna wanted to go with him, it still looks really bad. 385 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:19,960 More on that in a minute. And again, Ned is a better 386 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:22,880 source on this matter and he doesn't think it was a 387 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:26,160 kidnapping and most people in the fandom don't see it as an 388 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:29,000 abduction. It seems like in world that 389 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:32,840 that's the party line most people see that way, but fans of 390 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:34,680 of the books see it the opposite. 391 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:37,920 And I think we're probably right about that. 392 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:41,160 So just as we paired the last World of Ice and Fire quote with 393 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:45,360 Danny's POV, let's do that again with Jamie and Catlin in her POV 394 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:49,040 for some more detail and to show how it's not just a story about 395 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:51,040 Rhaegar and Liana. We got a lot of important 396 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:53,040 characters affected like about this, like I said. 397 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:54,320 So let's take a look at that quote. 398 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:58,800 He was on his way to River Run when strange how telling it 399 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:02,720 still made her throat grow tight after all these years, when he 400 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:05,800 heard about Liana and went to King's Landing instead. 401 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:09,960 It was a rash thing to do. She remembered how her own 402 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:13,120 father had raged when the news had been brought to River Run. 403 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:16,760 The gallant fool was what he called Brandon. 404 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:20,360 Jamie poured the last half cup of wine. 405 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:23,240 He wrote into the Red Keep with a few companions, shouting for 406 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:25,040 Prince Rhaegar to come out and die. 407 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:28,480 But Rhaegar wasn't there. Airy sent his guards to arrest 408 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:30,680 them for plotting his son's murder. 409 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:34,120 Among all the things Caitlin and Jamie have to talk about down in 410 00:21:34,120 --> 00:21:36,720 River Runs Dungeon, George make sure to include this. 411 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:39,520 They both have their part to play in filling out the margins 412 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:41,320 of this mystery, and it affects them both. 413 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:44,560 It's done so smoothly. This is all very wrapped up in 414 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:48,000 Jamie's issues with knighthood and politics and oaths. 415 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:51,280 This is one of the things Aries did that made him question his 416 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:53,760 earths. He witnessed these executions, 417 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:56,600 let's not forget. He finally snapped a little 418 00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:59,720 later when, well, he snapped his oath. 419 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:03,040 He broke his oath finally when blowing up King's Landing was in 420 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:04,920 the offing. You know, these, these other 421 00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:08,040 minor things by comparison. Because yeah, blowing up King's 422 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:10,920 Landing is a lot worse than than those executions, as bad as they 423 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:13,320 were. But those were the building 424 00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:17,640 blocks to Jamie changing his mind about his oath and turning 425 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:22,840 on Aries because, I mean, why let him do that, you know? 426 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:25,560 But it it wasn't like that was the first awful thing he saw 427 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:29,200 Aries do. And for Catlin again, six years 428 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:33,000 of betrothal to Brandon just for it to not happen to die like 429 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:35,920 that. I mean, so long. 430 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:38,920 This is her youth. She her whole half of her youth 431 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:42,240 roughly, you know, of her, of what she could remember from her 432 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:44,840 youth would have been spent picturing herself marrying this 433 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:46,720 Brandon guy. Then just at the last second, 434 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:50,760 Ned subbed in instead. And we recall from her inner 435 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:52,360 thoughts, she wasn't too pleased about that. 436 00:22:52,360 --> 00:22:55,440 You know, Brandon was a lot more attractive and handsome and 437 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:59,240 manly and Ned was quiet and she wasn't, she grew to love him, as 438 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:01,360 we well know. But at first it was it's like 439 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:03,920 disappointing. So it's personal. 440 00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:06,680 So many characters. And I didn't even, you know, I 441 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:08,720 could re mention Cersei here. The mention, you know, getting 442 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:11,160 Liana whispered in her ear. That's that's very personal, 443 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,040 obviously. And from Jamie as well, we 444 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:17,880 learned that Rhaegar had been thinking about perhaps removing 445 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:21,640 his father peacefully, right? Like getting him to step down 446 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:24,960 because of his madness, but he wasn't in a rush to do that. 447 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:27,400 Maybe because he didn't have that third child yet. 448 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:29,640 Maybe that was a step he wanted to take first. 449 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:32,560 Maybe he was waiting for more signs of the prophecy. 450 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:35,440 Maybe he was waiting for his father to just go a little bit 451 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:38,840 farther into madness, which would make it easier to remove 452 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:39,440 him. He could. 453 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:40,920 He could make his case a lot better. 454 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:44,120 If Aries just clearly wasn't getting better and was clearly 455 00:23:44,120 --> 00:23:48,520 getting worse, that might win more people to his side to make 456 00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:52,840 his father retire early. But then things became rushed. 457 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:56,520 As we discussed a minute ago, winter happens quickly and his 458 00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,840 priorities shift. What he thought he had time for 459 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:03,640 now becomes urgent and his priority, instead of removing 460 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:07,080 his father, becomes this third child and liana. 461 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:12,680 And to be fair, while Rhaegar could have expected problems for 462 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:15,000 his actions and should have expected problems for his 463 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:17,480 actions, should he have expected this much? 464 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:21,480 Should he really have expected his father to go this far? 465 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:26,120 I don't think so. But Rhaegar probably knew his 466 00:24:26,120 --> 00:24:28,880 father better than we did, or whether than we do better than 467 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:31,560 we do rather right? And so maybe he was naive to not 468 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:34,400 see it coming, maybe not. Maybe it was a calculated risk. 469 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:38,800 I mean, like he's balancing the fate of all of Westeros here 470 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:41,040 with this decision. And he's wrong about that, but 471 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,320 he's sincere in believing that he's not doing it for 472 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:46,240 self-serving reasons. He genuinely seemed to believe 473 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:48,640 that was happening. So I think Nina agrees here. 474 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:51,880 She says, yeah, the political impact is a big deal, but he's 475 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:55,080 just way more focused on the Prince that was promised stuff, 476 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:57,400 something that he's believed since he was very young. 477 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,840 Remember the IT seems I must Be a Warrior line that came when he 478 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:03,360 was like, barely older than a toddler. 479 00:25:03,360 --> 00:25:05,880 I mean, well, maybe look, maybe a bit older than that, but not 480 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,360 not even 10 years old. I mean, we're we're talking like 481 00:25:08,360 --> 00:25:10,080 7 or something, like a brand's age. 482 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:14,960 So if he believed that he or his son was an apocalyptic hero 483 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:20,000 prophesied for thousands of years, then you can see why just 484 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:23,520 his father's madness isn't that important. 485 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:27,680 Because to that point, his father's madness hadn't been so 486 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:29,320 bad. It was kind of bad. 487 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:31,920 Maybe arguably it was that bad, but he hadn't done anything, 488 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:35,560 like anything quite close to what he did to Rickard and 489 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:38,600 Brandon. So he didn't care as much about 490 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:41,480 the scandal he was creating when he crowned Lyanna. 491 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:45,640 He clearly had bravery about his convictions here. 492 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:50,760 He was clearly willing to suffer political harm, suffer political 493 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:53,080 consequences for what he believed was important like 494 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:55,680 that. That was already demonstrated at 495 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,600 the Tournament of Harrenhal. So Nina says, I don't think 496 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,240 really Rhaegar concerned himself with the reaction of Liana's 497 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:03,040 family or the larger political world overall. 498 00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:06,320 Perhaps that was too much of A blind spot for him. 499 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:07,640 Maybe he should have somewhat considered it. 500 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:09,280 Certainly, it's easy to say that in retrospect. 501 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:13,520 Later on, of course, we're going to wonder about who can tell us 502 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,920 more about these things. Now, the obvious question, the 503 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:19,000 obvious answer is a lot of this is Bran, you know, with the 504 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,360 supernatural means he can see through the trees. 505 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:25,960 And obviously on the show, they replayed the Tower of Joy for us 506 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:28,280 that way. And there's a lot of potential 507 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:31,360 in the books for Bran to see into the past and give us a lot 508 00:26:31,360 --> 00:26:32,440 more info on some of these things. 509 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:35,280 That's up to George on what he's actually feels like showing us 510 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:37,160 though, and what he thinks is relevant, what he might want to 511 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:39,040 still leave in the shroud of mystery. 512 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:41,800 But we also have to strongly consider Hal and Reid. 513 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:46,400 Hal and Reid is his level of supernatural inclination slash 514 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,280 ability entirely unknown. I tend to think it's on the mild 515 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:51,480 side if any, but he certainly has a connection to the Isle of 516 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:53,040 Faces. The Isle of Faces has a big 517 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:55,840 connection to this episode. He also has a big connection to 518 00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:59,800 Liana and the Tournament of Harrenhal, which might which in 519 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:02,520 turn might have given him a connection to Rhaegar 520 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:05,440 indirectly. So Hal and Reid big part of this 521 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:09,680 episode in part as well. Here's a few other key questions 522 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:11,760 that we're going to work on things that I think are 523 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:15,960 important to answer and things that might spark other questions 524 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,480 from you all. First of all, when when did this 525 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:20,720 all happen again? Not long after the turning of 526 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,240 Harrenhal within a couple months early 282. 527 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:26,000 Why was Liana still in the South though? 528 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:28,760 Why didn't she just go back home to the north after the 529 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:30,600 tournament of Harrenhal? What's she still doing down 530 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:33,760 there? Well, it it wasn't that long 531 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:36,720 between Harrenhal and Liana's disappearance. 532 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:41,920 We have what's supposedly two months of the fall, spring 533 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,880 before the sudden return of winter, and then Rhaegar 534 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:48,840 seemingly meeting Liana shortly after the new year, which is 535 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,880 when winter had started. So Liana probably was only in 536 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:55,040 the South for another couple months at most, maybe three 537 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:56,560 months. That's, that's the reasonably 538 00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:59,680 long time, but not any crazy amount, not some strange amount 539 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:01,680 that we have to really scratch our heads at, but still. 540 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:03,840 Why? Why was she still there? 541 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,400 Why didn't you go back home? Ricard seemed to have gone home. 542 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:10,080 Brandon of course had to travel to River Run before he got 543 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,800 diverted. So he wasn't well, he wasn't at 544 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:14,560 River Run. He may have gone back N 545 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:16,520 potentially that's maybe why she stayed. 546 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:20,800 She may have stayed in the South to attend Brandon's wedding 547 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:22,240 later and not travel all the way home. 548 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:24,160 But still, it's odd that she wasn't with her family. 549 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:28,640 So it's possible as well that it's related to Robert. 550 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:31,760 Obviously by then she was already betrothed to Robert. 551 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:34,160 She betrothed Robert for a little while, for a few years. 552 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,480 So it's possible that was pending, that was coming soon. 553 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,320 Ricard and Robert may have been working that out, may have been 554 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:46,160 trying to decide on a date. She was 16 when she vanished, so 555 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:47,760 they may have been waiting for her to turn 16. 556 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:49,840 We don't know exactly when she turned 16, so it may have been 557 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,360 around that time. They didn't seem to be waiting 558 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:55,880 except for maybe her to be at that age. 559 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,560 Other than that, they were ready for this, this political 560 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:00,720 arrangement, this marriage to happen. 561 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:02,880 And it's interesting because the Robert's side of this a bit, 562 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:07,480 which is that Robert grew up with Ned, had a big fondness for 563 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:09,520 Ned, and most of his own family was gone, right? 564 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:14,120 His his mother and father drowned insight of Storm's End 565 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:18,840 famously. And so he's been Lord of Storm's 566 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:20,280 End for quite a while on his own. 567 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:22,640 So he didn't really have a family anymore. 568 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,800 His elders were all gone. His his family is his younger 569 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,720 brother Stannis and Robert Renly and Renly's a child. 570 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:30,000 And Stannis. Yeah. 571 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,040 Robert and Santa, not the best of friends. 572 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:34,600 You know, they didn't click too well, You know, as we know, 573 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:35,880 their personality is very different. 574 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:37,880 So not a lot of family for Robert. 575 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:41,640 So this is wrapped up in Robert's attraction to Liana is 576 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:44,160 joining the Stark family being a part of that? 577 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,880 They had a healthy, large family until they didn't. 578 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,680 But at the time, when Robert was a teenager, they really did. 579 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:55,160 He was best friends with Ned. Marrying Liana is just a coup de 580 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:57,440 grace. He's just fully in best friend 581 00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:01,080 Stark, wife Stark. It's his extended family, the 582 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:02,760 family he doesn't have on his own side. 583 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:06,160 Yeah, there's a lot of lot of squishiness in there, right? 584 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:08,040 A lot of like poor Robert, right? 585 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:10,840 You know, you don't feel bad for him later in life, but I feel 586 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:12,840 bad from thinking about it in that light. 587 00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:17,320 So, yeah, the possibility of his marriage to Liana is is entirely 588 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,160 a good reason, a good theory for why he was still in, why she was 589 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,120 still in the South and why some maybe, maybe Brandon wasn't. 590 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,240 Because Brandon could return for could go home to get ready for 591 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:28,120 his wedding and come back. But there's been a lot of 592 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:31,240 mystery in terms of where these people were in these ensuing 593 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:34,040 months, right? Because Lyanna may not have been 594 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:35,640 with her family, which is interesting. 595 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:40,320 And she wasn't at River Run because there's no evidence that 596 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,680 Catelyn has ever met her. And Catelyn was certainly just 597 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:45,160 parked at River Run through all of this. 598 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:50,320 So anyway, definitely some mysteries in in in there in 599 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:53,840 terms of the those months and exactly where everybody was. 600 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:55,560 And that's something that I expect George to clear up at 601 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:57,880 least somewhat, but probably not all the way. 602 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,280 And another factor is after the tournament in terms of the 603 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:06,520 wedding and Robert and Lyanna, after what Rhaegar did after he 604 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,360 laid that wreath in her lap very suggestively. 605 00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:15,320 Lance lap blue roses turns into John, but they saw him do that 606 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:17,880 and they're like, oh, maybe we better get this marriage done 607 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:19,640 sooner after like what's what's he? 608 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:22,680 What's Rhaegar up to here? We better maybe we should go 609 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:26,120 ahead and seal this deal now before Rhaegar goes any farther 610 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:28,120 than this. So let's let's take care of this 611 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:30,080 marriage ASAP. Right that that's a very 612 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:33,160 possible line of thinking. They had all the more reason to 613 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:35,360 have Leona stay in the South. Another possibility though, is 614 00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:41,040 that Leona fled or ran away from a much farther away distance. 615 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:43,840 We assume that she escaped near the Riverland. 616 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:46,560 She got away from her family or was captured near her family 617 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:50,720 because yes, they met not quote UN quote, not ten leagues from 618 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:53,880 Harrenhal, but that doesn't mean she came a very long distance to 619 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:55,320 get there. The assumption is that she 620 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,000 wasn't that far away in the 1st place, but we should consider 621 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,960 that she fled her family's party, returning to the North 622 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:06,320 after Harrenhal, and they had no idea where she was for quite a 623 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:07,600 while. A lot of room there. 624 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,840 I kind of am partial to that idea that they were they 625 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:13,760 lingered a bit after the tourney, they started their 626 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:16,440 journey home and Liana just ditched him. 627 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:18,720 Liana ditched him and went S you know what I mean? 628 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:23,520 That that it was on their slow progress N that she she slipped 629 00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:24,640 away. Makes a lot of sense. 630 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:26,200 They wouldn't be necessarily expecting it. 631 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:28,280 They wouldn't have any reasons like keep an eye on her. 632 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:31,320 Like, I don't you know, that that might not have been 633 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:34,680 considering it at all and that, yeah, it fits really well. 634 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:38,080 But where though? How did they know where to meet 635 00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:39,680 or how did Rhaegar know where she would be? 636 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,600 Or how did he know where or how did she know where he would be? 637 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:44,480 Like, how do they know where each other would be, you know? 638 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:48,000 Well, if they they did meet at the Tournament of Harrenhal, 639 00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:51,000 they had a private conversation that probably admits the night 640 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:55,280 of the Laughing tree and all that business they could have 641 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:57,280 arranged. They sort of, hey, meet me here 642 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:02,200 in two months or three months, Liliana could tell Rhaegar meet 643 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,040 me here in three months. I'll be at this particular heart 644 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:09,000 tree or this particular Grove or I don't know what location they 645 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,240 picked, but they probably pick something distinct out of the 646 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:12,200 way. It's they're not going to pick 647 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,480 anything clearly obvious, like the, you know, the end of the 648 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:18,080 kneeling man or the the end of the crossroads or something 649 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:20,800 where there's a lot of people. But they may have found some 650 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:24,840 unique location nearby. If if we're looking at the map 651 00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:27,520 here, the Isle of Faces is going to be one we're going to 652 00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:29,800 strongly consider maybe high heart. 653 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:31,280 There's a chance that's close enough. 654 00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:33,200 But 10 leagues from Harrenhal isn't very far. 655 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,000 It's only like 30 miles y'all. There's not a lot of room for we 656 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:38,800 can't cast a huge wide net all around the area here. 657 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:40,520 There's there's not a lot of options. 658 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:45,000 So I think the Isle of Faces is the best guess for where they 659 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:47,680 eventually went, not where they met first though, because like 660 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:49,040 how does she even get there initially? 661 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:50,960 How does he get there? I do think that's where they may 662 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:54,080 have eventually gone, but it the actual meeting spot, maybe it's 663 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:57,280 not that important, but it's fun to to talk about and and and 664 00:33:57,600 --> 00:33:59,400 narrow down. And when we do that, well, we 665 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,360 realize I I don't, I still don't know. 666 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:07,360 So yeah, Nina definitely believes that at the Tournament 667 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:11,840 of Harrenhal, after the night of the laughing tree incident, he 668 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:14,960 goes and and tracks who he think the night of the laughing tree 669 00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:19,280 down and finds out it's her, and then they fall for each other. 670 00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:21,639 But it's more than that. I do think it's more than just 671 00:34:21,639 --> 00:34:25,000 falling for each other because, well, we'll get to that later. 672 00:34:25,199 --> 00:34:27,239 I don't think it's just they they're besotted with each 673 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:28,280 other. It's definitely not just that 674 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:29,800 simple. They're both very serious 675 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,440 people, though. I think love is a part of it. 676 00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:34,320 It's definitely not everything here. 677 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:37,520 I don't think love alone cause them to do all these things to 678 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:38,960 cause all this political turmoil. 679 00:34:39,199 --> 00:34:40,840 They both, I think, believed in the prophecy. 680 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:42,719 Rhaegar certainly did, and I think maybe Lyanna did 681 00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:44,960 eventually as well. Nina gives us a great example. 682 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:46,520 Come to the Godswood if you want to go home. 683 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:48,920 Who was told that? Sansa, right. 684 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:51,639 And that's the meeting, like a prearranged meeting, give you a 685 00:34:51,639 --> 00:34:54,199 message. She goes to the Godswood and 686 00:34:54,199 --> 00:34:55,840 then Danto sneaks her out of the castle. 687 00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,600 Of course, it's little finger behind all that, but it doesn't 688 00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:00,520 matter. Same difference the the 689 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:02,640 parallel. Is there something along those 690 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:04,520 lines? And I do think it would be fun 691 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:07,760 if they met at some Hart tree. That would be appropriate given 692 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:09,760 that a lot of this could be witnessed by the old gods. 693 00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:11,800 It could be Brand that shows us all this in the in the long 694 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:14,480 term. So the heart tree having a 695 00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:16,680 shadow over everything or multiple heart trees having a 696 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:18,600 shadow over all this is very appropriate. 697 00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:21,920 We know they went to the Tower of Joy eventually, but right now 698 00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:24,120 we're focused on in between, right? 699 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:26,320 What did they do? Where did they go before heading 700 00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:29,000 South to the Tower of Joy? So again, the alley faces is one 701 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:31,560 of our important figures there. But before we get to that, let's 702 00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:33,560 talk about who else is involved because again, it's not just 703 00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:35,120 Leona and Rhaegar. And we've talked about other 704 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:38,320 people who are affected by it, but there's other people 705 00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:41,160 directly involved who weren't just affected by it, but they 706 00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:43,240 were there or there for part of it. 707 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,520 Obviously Liana and Rhaegar, but who are Rhaegar's quote UN 708 00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:50,080 quote, half a dozen companions, quite possibly Miles Mouton and 709 00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,920 Richard Launmuth, they were Squires to Rhaegar, who later 710 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,440 became his companions. So he quite likely trusted them 711 00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:58,080 very much. Probably not Jon Connington, 712 00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:01,000 given that Jon never thinks about Rhaegar and Liana, though 713 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:02,480 he does think about Rhaegar and Helia. 714 00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:05,840 So yeah. And John wanted to be closer to 715 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:07,440 Rhaegar. I don't know if he ever was so 716 00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:09,480 close to be included in this group of 1/2 a dozen. 717 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:12,720 Certain Kingsguard would be included though, not Lewin 718 00:36:12,720 --> 00:36:17,520 Martel, given he's Elia's uncle, that would be very insulting to 719 00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:18,600 her. He's not going to be helping 720 00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:22,120 with any of this. Like second wife betraying his 721 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:25,280 his niece kind of business. Arthur Dayne is very possible. 722 00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:28,360 Gerald Hightower probably not, even though he ends up involved 723 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:30,600 in the Tower joy later. We know Gerald Hightower was 724 00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:33,960 sent to bring Rhaegar back. He wasn't there initially, so 725 00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:38,400 probably not Gerald Hightower. Sir Oswell went very possible 726 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:41,360 because he's one of the others that dies at the Tower of Joy. 727 00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:45,280 He's associated with Harrenhal. I mean, his house went, that's 728 00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:49,840 who ruled Harrenhal at the time. And we know that Rhaegar had a 729 00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:54,600 strong connection to the Wentz, so that's very possibly the 730 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:56,360 other Kingsguard that he trusted as much. 731 00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,240 Maybe just a step down from Arthur, who I think is the most 732 00:36:59,240 --> 00:37:02,320 likely Barristan Selmy, probably out of the question. 733 00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:06,400 He reveals in his POV that Rhaegar didn't include Barristan 734 00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:09,880 in his circle of trust so much. So he would have known things 735 00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:11,840 about Rhaegar. And he certainly knows things 736 00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:13,880 about Lyanna, but he wouldn't have been included in this. 737 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:16,680 He wasn't there on the road. He wasn't part of the the 738 00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:19,200 kidnapping, slash abduction, slash elopement, whatever you 739 00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:20,760 call it. What about on Lyanna's side? 740 00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:23,960 Who are her companions? Maybe she didn't have 741 00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:27,320 companions, she just ran away from her family's party. 742 00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:30,680 Then she's just by herself. Maybe she had guards that she 743 00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:33,840 ran away from. If though, if so, then these are 744 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:40,240 just randoms probably that we may never have names for And but 745 00:37:40,240 --> 00:37:43,320 one tempting possibility again is the name of Hal and Reed 746 00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:46,000 because they became friends. Its attorney at Harrenhal. 747 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:50,880 She defended him and they got to know each other and, well, it 748 00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:53,720 just so happens Hal and Reid had spent some time at the Isle of 749 00:37:53,720 --> 00:37:57,760 Faces just before the tournament, according to Mira 750 00:37:57,760 --> 00:37:59,320 and Jojen. So that's going to be an 751 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:02,040 important point. Now, of course, Ned somewhat 752 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:04,800 involved, Brandon somewhat involved. 753 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:06,280 Benjen is a big question, though. 754 00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:09,120 Nina says definitely. She thinks definitely Benjen was 755 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:11,720 involved. He may have helped her escape. 756 00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:17,080 He may have helped her by concealing the secret. 757 00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:19,680 He may have known what she was going to do and kept that as 758 00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:22,280 hidden. I think that's why he joined the 759 00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:24,240 wall. I think he felt very guilty over 760 00:38:24,240 --> 00:38:26,040 this. I think you and I have have 761 00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:29,880 speculated on this before and some Benjen episode once, but I 762 00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:33,880 I think we both agreed that he he he's probably felt bad about 763 00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:36,400 what happened because he knew. I think you're right. 764 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:40,000 I think he he helped this thing happen that he decided he was 765 00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:41,560 helping his sister avoid a bad marriage. 766 00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:43,960 Like, that's probably all it seemed like it was, like he, she 767 00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:46,640 doesn't want to marry this guy. And that seems like something 768 00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:48,640 you would help your sister do. Like, you would be on her side 769 00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:50,520 for that. Like, Dad's making her marry 770 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:53,200 this man that she doesn't like. And we know Robert's a 771 00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:55,000 womanizer. And, like, maybe they're on her 772 00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:56,200 side. Like, yeah, it doesn't. 773 00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:56,840 It's not. It's not. 774 00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:59,760 Right. So Ned wouldn't have helped with 775 00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:01,080 that because Ned was so close to Robert. 776 00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:02,880 But Benjen. Yeah, Benjen might have. 777 00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:05,160 So yeah, I can. I can see guilt having a lot to 778 00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:07,240 do with his decisions and why he joined the watch. 779 00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:10,720 Now, the Tully's, again, could be involved a little bit, but 780 00:39:10,720 --> 00:39:13,000 they're more more likely they're just impacted by it. 781 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:16,760 But I wanted to mention them because it's possible that house 782 00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:19,280 went is the ones that informed the Tullys. 783 00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:20,840 That's their Liege Lord, their kin. 784 00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:24,960 Remember Catlin's mother is a went or was a went and this 785 00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:27,320 disappearance happened. If it's not ten leagues from 786 00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:29,840 Harrenhal, that's probably their jurisdiction, like their lands. 787 00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:32,240 So this happened in their territory, which you know how 788 00:39:32,240 --> 00:39:33,680 these Lords think. If it happens on their 789 00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,480 territory, someone else is going to say they're responsible for 790 00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:39,160 it. So, so that matters a lot too, 791 00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:41,080 even. And that may have been part of 792 00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:45,040 why things went the way they did with Oswell while he was so 793 00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:49,280 intent on helping Rhaegar and defending baby Jon Snow or 794 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:51,440 whatever. So of course the actual impact 795 00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:54,840 is much larger than this. I'm sure if we really dove even 796 00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:58,800 deeper, we could find 2nd and 3rd degree impacts and and 797 00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:00,120 characters who are even more involved. 798 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:02,760 Maybe some people that could have been involved, servants, 799 00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:05,000 Squires here and there that I didn't consider. 800 00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:07,840 Feel free to weigh in on that because there is a lot of wiggle 801 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:12,000 room here. Let's move on to the section 802 00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,960 called Why not an abduction? So with respect to what we still 803 00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:18,200 don't know about what transpired between them at the tourney, 804 00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:22,400 what kind of conversation they had, why Liana chose Rhaegar, 805 00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:26,160 let's say she did go willingly or because she had her own plans 806 00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:29,640 like escaping Robert. That's the obvious 1. 807 00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:33,280 So that that is of course, where we should start. 808 00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:38,040 It's perhaps our best reason for why Liana on her on her own 809 00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:40,600 would want to go with Rhaegar willingly. 810 00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:44,080 Let's take Nina's lead here. She thinks that Liana was in a 811 00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:45,640 bind. She didn't want to marry Robert. 812 00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:49,920 She believed Robert would never love her, and she didn't have a 813 00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:52,640 way to stop it. She's a teenage girl in a 814 00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:55,000 patriarchal society. I mean, a teenage boy probably 815 00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:58,120 couldn't do much here either, but still, she's very limited 816 00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:01,400 means to do anything about it. Her father had already agreed to 817 00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:04,920 it. Ned was trying to sell her on 818 00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:06,000 it. Ned liked Robert. 819 00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:07,160 He was trying to push her into it. 820 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:08,760 Not push her into it, but argue her into it. 821 00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:12,160 He he's biased towards Robert, even even after everything. 822 00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:14,600 Ned is biased towards Robert a bit in ways that I think are a 823 00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:16,120 little unfair, but he married him. 824 00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:19,240 Yeah, Ned. Yeah, Ned and Robert should have 825 00:41:19,240 --> 00:41:20,960 gotten married instead. That would have solved it. 826 00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:24,600 All right, So Leanna couldn't say no, right. 827 00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:28,680 Like it's not like Santa and or it is like Santa and a Storm of 828 00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:31,880 Swords where she just does really doesn't want to marry 829 00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:34,080 Tyrion. Before that she really didn't 830 00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:36,280 want to marry Joffrey. So for her it was like trading 831 00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:40,000 one bad option for another until she got a chance to run away. 832 00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:43,440 That was her one option that that came up that she was able 833 00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:48,040 to take. So what Sansa hasn't done but is 834 00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:50,280 on track to perhaps do is get remarried. 835 00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:53,760 And at that point she can re emerge. 836 00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:56,520 She can be Sansa again, potentially, because then she's 837 00:41:56,520 --> 00:42:02,560 married as patriarchal as as entrapping as a lot of these 838 00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:06,000 marriages can be for women. It can go. 839 00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:08,200 It can that can be used against the scenario too. 840 00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:10,240 This can be used as a weapon. She can turn it around like a 841 00:42:10,240 --> 00:42:13,760 judo. If she gets out of it by 842 00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:16,160 marrying someone else, then that's done. 843 00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:19,040 If it's like, yeah, I mean, sure, there's ways around this. 844 00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:24,480 Like Tywin can annull Tyrion's marriage to Taisha because she's 845 00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:29,880 lowborn, But if Lyanna runs off and marries Rhaegar, that's not 846 00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:32,000 going to get annulled so easily, right? 847 00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:36,160 This is the Crown Prince. He can defy Lord of Winterfell 848 00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:37,760 and the Lord of Storms End if he wants to. 849 00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:40,160 He can get away with that. It might not be easy, but he can 850 00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:41,560 do it. And he already tried. 851 00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:43,720 He mean he look at what he did in front of everybody at the 852 00:42:43,720 --> 00:42:45,320 tournament. He put that wreath right in her 853 00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:48,320 lap. So he was clearly willing to do 854 00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:51,280 things like this on. So on her end, she sees his 855 00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:52,960 bravery. She's he's willing to step up 856 00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:55,720 for her. He's her way out. 857 00:42:55,880 --> 00:43:00,680 If I can get to Rhaegar, marry him, I'm out of Robert's reach. 858 00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:03,240 He can't do anything about it. As powerful as he is, Lord of 859 00:43:03,240 --> 00:43:07,000 Storm's End, that marriage is final done before the sight of 860 00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:09,480 gods and men can't do anything about it. 861 00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:11,520 Robert, that's it. So that's that's her out. 862 00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:14,800 That's her way to get out of it. So it really makes sense that 863 00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:17,160 that's why she would be all over this idea. 864 00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:19,560 Prophecy or no, whether she believed in any of that stuff 865 00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:23,600 doesn't matter. This is her way out of the 866 00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:26,800 marriage she didn't want. And, and, and to perhaps one of 867 00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:29,000 the few people that could really make sure that marriage wasn't, 868 00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:31,520 you know, there was no chicanery to get rid of it like a like a 869 00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:35,240 Tywin Taisha thing. And Rhaegar as well came from a 870 00:43:35,240 --> 00:43:38,720 history of polygamous marriages, not recent ones, but the 871 00:43:38,720 --> 00:43:41,360 precedent was there. So they thought, maybe, yeah, 872 00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:45,000 this is a chintzy legal grounds, but it's not without precedent. 873 00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:48,320 They at least have an angle to take to justify it. 874 00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:50,400 It's a little out of the ordinary, maybe a lot out of the 875 00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:53,160 ordinary, but they could probably get it to work, 876 00:43:53,720 --> 00:44:00,120 especially given who Rhaegar is. And how about that, too? 877 00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:03,480 It actually comes around again. Rob, who was of course, is 878 00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:08,880 Liana's nephew. He cites one of these exact same 879 00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:10,840 polygamous brides to justify his marriage. 880 00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:14,360 He uses the royal credentials of Jane Westerling, who was one of 881 00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:16,600 Magor's black brides. Who really? 882 00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:19,800 That's a polygamous marriage. Jane Westerling was not Magor's 883 00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:23,480 first wife to support the credentials of his Jane 884 00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:25,960 Westerling right there. Magor married to Jane Westerling 885 00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:27,440 and Rob married to Jane Westerling. 886 00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:31,960 So, mm, hmm. Now, if you look at literature, 887 00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:36,960 real world fiction, fantasy, even just A Song of Ice and 888 00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:41,440 Fire, you can find lots of other examples of women escaping 889 00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:43,920 marriages by marrying someone else first. 890 00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:48,000 Doesn't matter the religion, doesn't matter the time setting 891 00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:52,000 for the most part. This is a a trope that maybe 892 00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:53,800 he's not right to call it a trope because yeah, it happens 893 00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:56,240 in the real world. The finality of it all is what 894 00:44:56,240 --> 00:44:58,160 makes it work. He's like, Nope, marriage is 895 00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:00,440 final. So if you flip that around, 896 00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:03,600 well, Liana's married Robert, you can't do anything about it. 897 00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:05,760 That's it. The gods have have spoken, you 898 00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:07,720 know, now you can't. So you can't marry someone 899 00:45:07,720 --> 00:45:09,280 that's already married, unless of course you kill the new 900 00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:11,960 husband. But we're, again, we're talking 901 00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:13,880 about Rhaegar. Not so easy to kill. 902 00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:18,680 OK, technically Robert did actually kill Rhaegar, actually 903 00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:22,400 did happen. But we know a lot more happened 904 00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:26,040 in between then and later. And Liana died afterwards, so 905 00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:29,920 shortly afterwards. So it's not like he won her in 906 00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:34,040 that sense, quote UN quote. Even the red Kraken makes this 907 00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:36,080 claim. He may he takes a bunch of salt 908 00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:40,200 wives during the dance of the Dragons from the West mostly, 909 00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:43,320 and they demand they're eventually they're demanded 910 00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:45,720 back. He's like send them back. 911 00:45:45,720 --> 00:45:48,440 You know, the the crown demands their return and he's like, I 912 00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:52,360 married him. What the drowned God has has put 913 00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:54,080 together. No man can set asunder. 914 00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:56,360 Even they go with that. I mean, of course, it's a very 915 00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:58,880 self-serving line. He's, he's mocking the Seven 916 00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:03,320 Kingdoms by saying that. But it's, it's a strong argument 917 00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:07,480 in this world that what the gods have joined, no man can 918 00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:09,480 separate, even when it's the Drowned God. 919 00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:14,920 So yeah, this is a ubiquitous type of scenario type of 920 00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:20,520 situation. They met again, presumably when 921 00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:23,840 he was looking for the night of the Laughing Tree again and 922 00:46:24,240 --> 00:46:26,480 realize that they are the answer to each other's problems. 923 00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:29,640 Lyanna says can whether she again, whether she's in on the 924 00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:31,800 prophecy or not, she has her way out of this marriage, which is 925 00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:35,160 the thing that she wants, and Rhaegar has the means to create 926 00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:36,880 the third head of the dragon. Now why? 927 00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:40,560 Again, why she is the right one out of this seemingly other 928 00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:42,160 choices of women he could have made. 929 00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:45,440 Still, this is what's right in front of him. 930 00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:47,080 Maybe there's reasons we're not aware of. 931 00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:50,400 It certainly works. Now there again, so there could 932 00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:53,000 be other reasons, but we have enough just with that to 933 00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:55,960 establish a good reason for them to do what they did. 934 00:46:56,720 --> 00:46:59,440 So that's the willingness. We have plenty of motive here. 935 00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:02,400 But how? Again, we talked about the 936 00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:04,840 possibility that she just ran off from her friends. 937 00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:06,680 But let's get a little deeper with that. 938 00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:08,680 Let's get a little deeper into that possibility. 939 00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:11,400 It's easier to answer this question when we don't think 940 00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:13,560 it's an abduction or we do think it is an abduction rather, 941 00:47:13,560 --> 00:47:16,200 because he fell on their party, as the other quote said. 942 00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:18,000 OK, he kidnaps her and runs away with it. 943 00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:19,600 What's what more is there to say? 944 00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:22,720 That's pretty straightforward, but it doesn't seem to work, 945 00:47:22,720 --> 00:47:25,000 right? Not only is there so much 946 00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:27,640 counter evidence for it being an abduction, he only had half a 947 00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:31,320 dozen companions. Like overpowered them with six 948 00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:34,720 guys. Like was she really that lightly 949 00:47:34,720 --> 00:47:37,360 defended? I don't know it just there's 950 00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:39,040 there's no mention of anyone being killed. 951 00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:42,800 So yeah, again, just doesn't seem to work. 952 00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:47,200 So they knew her. They they met at a probably at a 953 00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:48,840 pre arranged location, as we keep saying. 954 00:47:49,720 --> 00:47:56,320 And again, a factor that's told to us about her looms very large 955 00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:59,440 here. George R Martin wrote her as an 956 00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:03,360 amazing horse woman, horse rider, horse person. 957 00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:07,680 Even Roose Bolton of all people comments on how talented Leon 958 00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:10,160 was at riding horses. We have a lot of mentions of it. 959 00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:13,000 So we have a very straightforward trait of hers. 960 00:48:13,240 --> 00:48:15,480 The real term is horse girl. Horse girl? 961 00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:18,000 Yeah, she's a horse girl. Yeah, Leon is a horse girl. 962 00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:20,600 Yeah, she's the a legendary horse girl. 963 00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:23,120 That's right. If it came to some sort of 964 00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:26,880 chase, please ask who's going to catch her. 965 00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:31,560 Not the Kingsguard, not her father, not her brothers. 966 00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:36,640 She's faster than everyone. So yeah, this brings us to a 967 00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:40,200 beautiful and sneaky as heck potential parallel here in the 968 00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:45,040 form of an Aria quote. I need to find the fields again. 969 00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:49,680 I need to find a road. Instead, she found a game trail. 970 00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:53,440 It was narrow and uneven, but it was something. 971 00:48:53,720 --> 00:48:57,360 She raced along it, branches whipping at her face. 972 00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:01,000 One snagged her hood and yanked it back, and for half a 973 00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:03,880 heartbeat she feared they had caught her. 974 00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:08,960 A vixen burst from the brush as she passed, startled by the fury 975 00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:11,800 of her flight. The game trail brought her to 976 00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:15,360 another stream. Or was it the same one? 977 00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:19,120 Had she gotten turned around? There was no time to puzzle it 978 00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:21,000 out. She could hear their horses 979 00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:23,200 crashing through the trees behind her. 980 00:49:23,880 --> 00:49:27,400 Thorin scratched at her face like the cats she used to chase 981 00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:30,800 in King's Landing. Sparrows exploded from the 982 00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:34,160 branches of an Alder. But the trees were thinning now, 983 00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:36,280 and suddenly she was out of them. 984 00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:41,320 Broad, level fields stretched before her, all weeds and wild 985 00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:45,880 wheat, sodden and trampled. Arya kicked her horse back to a 986 00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:47,560 gallop. Run, she thought. 987 00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:50,240 Run for river, run, run for home. 988 00:49:50,640 --> 00:49:53,920 Had she lost them? She took one quick look and 989 00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:56,640 there was Harwin, 6 yards back and gaining. 990 00:49:57,040 --> 00:49:59,640 No, she thought, no, he can't, not him. 991 00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:02,880 It isn't fair. Both horses were lathered and 992 00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:07,040 flagging by the time he came up beside her, reached over and 993 00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:10,680 grabbed her bridle. Arya was breathing hard herself. 994 00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:12,880 Then she knew the fight was done. 995 00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:15,520 You ride like a northman, milady. 996 00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:18,040 Harwin said when he'd drawn them to a halt. 997 00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:23,120 Your aunt was the same, Lady Liana, but my father was master 998 00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:26,320 of horse, remember? Right, that's amazing. 999 00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:28,960 Liana's own flight may have been quite similar, even with Stark 1000 00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:31,920 men riding after her. She may have even gone out 1001 00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:35,960 riding as a, as a means to bait them, as a means to set up her 1002 00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:37,320 escape. She's a normal thing for her to 1003 00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:38,320 do. She's a horse girl. 1004 00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:40,960 She'd have guards with her, given who she is. 1005 00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:42,440 I mean, she's a highborn lady, you know? 1006 00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:44,040 But then she just bolts all of a sudden. 1007 00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:45,800 They're not ready for it. They don't expect it. 1008 00:50:46,080 --> 00:50:48,000 They don't know what she's got planned. 1009 00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:51,880 And she races to that spot where she knew Rhaegar would be, or 1010 00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:53,640 where Rhaegar knew he she would be. 1011 00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:55,760 And they don't know where that place is. 1012 00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:58,080 So when she gets out of sight, when she's gone, she has a 1013 00:50:58,080 --> 00:51:00,080 reasonable expectation of losing them entirely. 1014 00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:02,800 Now of course, the difference here is Arya was caught and 1015 00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:05,360 Liana was not. There was no Harwin, son of 1016 00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:07,880 Holland to catch her, if that's indeed how it went. 1017 00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:11,720 Arya, of course, did eventually escape this as well. 1018 00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:13,600 She traded one cap door for another. 1019 00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:15,440 She traded the Brotherhood Without Banners for Sandor 1020 00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:17,880 Clegane, which is kind of what Arya did. 1021 00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:20,400 Or Liana did. She traded a potential Robert 1022 00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:25,080 for Rhaegar, right? And another Jane Weschling 1023 00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:26,480 parallel here that that Nina caught. 1024 00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:29,480 When Rob leaves for the twins, Jane is so desperate to not be 1025 00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:33,360 parted from him that she catches up with him at the outskirts of 1026 00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:35,760 Tumbleton like they've already ridden away from River Run. 1027 00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:39,640 And she catches up on a quote well lathered horse, having fled 1028 00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:42,200 River Run to beg him to take her with him. 1029 00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:46,000 Parallel power there and given that Jane's mother was keeping a 1030 00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:49,640 close eye on her, Jane clearly escaped to do that 'cause 1031 00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:52,400 remember, Jane's mother is like keeping her back and is giving 1032 00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:54,280 her abortion drugs and all this stuff. 1033 00:51:54,280 --> 00:51:56,520 She definitely wasn't doesn't want her to sneak out and catch 1034 00:51:56,520 --> 00:52:00,440 Rob, but she did it. And Jane is is no Liana in terms 1035 00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:04,480 of horse riding, so she's maybe a horse girl also, but safe 1036 00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:06,920 assumption she's not as as talented as killed as Liana. 1037 00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:10,320 So again, it's it really it's just one possible scenario here. 1038 00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:12,800 There's a lot of other ways Liana could have escaped or run 1039 00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:15,320 away or eluded her guards or who knows. 1040 00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:18,360 But it just feels kind of right to include her horsemanship as a 1041 00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:21,720 factor in her escape. Like it feels like that's a part 1042 00:52:21,720 --> 00:52:25,640 of why George gave her that trait was that it adds to the, 1043 00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:28,680 it gives her an ability to run off like like she did. 1044 00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:31,720 It's also extra proof she wasn't abducted, right? 1045 00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:34,640 If she didn't want to go with Rhaegar, how you going to 1046 00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:36,400 capture this woman? She gets away, right? 1047 00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:38,880 She's going to ride off. Like again, I just pointed out 1048 00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:41,600 how her own men wouldn't be able to catch her, her own guards, 1049 00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:44,240 her own family. Same goes for Rhaegar's guys, 1050 00:52:44,240 --> 00:52:46,320 right? Miles Mouton's not catching her 1051 00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:49,520 right. Arthur Dayne's an incredible 1052 00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:51,600 swordsman, but I doubt he could outrace Lyanna. 1053 00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:55,600 So this is more proof that she went where she wanted, because 1054 00:52:55,600 --> 00:52:57,680 she would have got if she can get away, she can get away from 1055 00:52:57,680 --> 00:53:01,760 him, too. Once was Rhaegar, though. 1056 00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:03,120 That is kind of like a safety net. 1057 00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:06,920 When she gets to him, she can kind of hide behind him and say, 1058 00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:10,240 look, if you want to take me back, you got to go through him. 1059 00:53:10,240 --> 00:53:12,520 Are you really going to go after the Crown Prince? 1060 00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:13,880 Well, if you're Robert, you might. 1061 00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:18,160 If you're Brandon, you might, but that's not who was there at 1062 00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:20,360 the time. Brandon was not there, you know. 1063 00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:24,080 So if you're not Brandon or Robber, you see Rhaegar with 1064 00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:26,720 Liana and you think something's wrong, you're not going to draw 1065 00:53:26,720 --> 00:53:28,600 swords. He's got his Kingsguard with 1066 00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:29,640 him. He's the Crown Prince. 1067 00:53:29,640 --> 00:53:32,360 You might be puzzled, but you're not going to go after him. 1068 00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:34,680 You're not going to attack him. You might tell somebody though, 1069 00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:38,640 but they probably travelled in secret and they probably kept 1070 00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:40,440 things under wraps. They travelled off the beaten 1071 00:53:40,440 --> 00:53:42,880 path. I don't know, because again, 1072 00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:46,520 there's a big gap before this event and how they got to the 1073 00:53:46,520 --> 00:53:48,800 Tower of Joy and probably did that in secret. 1074 00:53:49,040 --> 00:53:52,520 And of course, Rhaegar eventually comes back to command 1075 00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:55,680 the armies that he might should have done sooner and then die at 1076 00:53:55,680 --> 00:53:58,400 the Trident. Coming up next, we'll discuss 1077 00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:02,600 this in between from their disappearance to their possible 1078 00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:08,560 marriage and where. If you are enjoying our content, 1079 00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:11,480 I highly suggest you come support us on Patreon. 1080 00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:14,240 It's a big podcasting world out there these days. 1081 00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:15,720 We've been around for a long time. 1082 00:54:15,720 --> 00:54:17,360 We've watched the world grow around us. 1083 00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:19,080 The podcasting industry has changed a lot. 1084 00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:22,200 It's had its ups and downs, it's mostly growing, but you know, 1085 00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:24,960 it's, it's a 2 steps forward, one step back kind of process 1086 00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:28,320 like so many other ones are. And for that reason, we really 1087 00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:30,760 value your support because it's the one thing we can really 1088 00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:33,960 count on. Spotify, Apple, you know, all 1089 00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:36,160 these other Amazon, all these big companies, they're going to 1090 00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:38,000 do what they do. They're giant corporations. 1091 00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:39,760 We just kind of have to play along. 1092 00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:44,000 We don't really have a choice. They own all the servers and all 1093 00:54:44,240 --> 00:54:47,920 the platforms, but what's between you all and us is 1094 00:54:47,920 --> 00:54:51,080 separate from that. We don't have to engage with 1095 00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:55,920 them for support from our fans, from our listeners like you all. 1096 00:54:55,920 --> 00:54:58,520 That's what Patreon is for. It's a much smaller site. 1097 00:54:58,520 --> 00:55:03,400 It's not some giant corporation. And we are appreciative that we 1098 00:55:03,400 --> 00:55:06,200 have a place like that, that we can, we can do this, that we can 1099 00:55:06,200 --> 00:55:09,560 have a central repository for our bonus episodes, for our 1100 00:55:09,560 --> 00:55:13,320 scripts, for having polls to keep you up to date with what 1101 00:55:13,320 --> 00:55:16,520 we're doing. So we get a lot back When you 1102 00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:18,320 sign up for Patreon, you get a lot out of it. 1103 00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:21,880 But if you listen to us regularly, seems like a fair 1104 00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:23,840 exchange, right? So check us out at 1105 00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:26,560 patreon.com/history of Westeros. We got a lot of different levels 1106 00:55:26,560 --> 00:55:28,640 you can sign up at. Like I said, bonus episodes. 1107 00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:29,680 That's probably the biggest to have. 1108 00:55:30,040 --> 00:55:32,000 One drop. Yeah, we have a bonus episode 1109 00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:33,840 sort of mentioned earlier. I mentioned the Red Kraken 1110 00:55:33,840 --> 00:55:35,800 earlier in this episode. That is the episode we're about 1111 00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:37,480 to have dropped Patrons only episode. 1112 00:55:38,240 --> 00:55:42,720 It is sort of Red Kraken 2, but it's called the Kraken, the lion 1113 00:55:42,800 --> 00:55:45,120 and the seahorse or the lioness the lioness, the lioness, 1114 00:55:45,160 --> 00:55:46,280 lioness, the Kraken and the seahorse. 1115 00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:48,600 I got the order wrong. Lioness, Kraken, seahorse 1116 00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:51,520 Lioness being Lady Joanna Westerling, not to be confused 1117 00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:55,320 with Jane Westerling, but same family and of course the red 1118 00:55:55,320 --> 00:55:58,680 Kraken and the seahorse being Alan Valerian. 1119 00:55:59,360 --> 00:56:03,600 So it's an excellent story that takes place sort of in 1120 00:56:03,680 --> 00:56:06,520 conjunction with the Dance of the Dragons, but is separate 1121 00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:08,560 enough from it that the story deserves to be told separately. 1122 00:56:08,720 --> 00:56:11,480 So there you go. Lots of things are awaiting for 1123 00:56:11,480 --> 00:56:15,280 you and as well as just the satisfaction of supporting one 1124 00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:18,360 of your hopefully regular listen shows like us. 1125 00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:22,040 Also check us out on Twitch. You know, I do been building up 1126 00:56:22,040 --> 00:56:25,200 the building up a lot of steam over there pretty regularly. 1127 00:56:25,200 --> 00:56:27,960 Stream it Friday at six O clock Eastern. 1128 00:56:28,520 --> 00:56:30,680 We're playing the Song of Ice and Fire mod for Crusader Kings. 1129 00:56:30,680 --> 00:56:32,800 It's super well detailed. Right now we're playing a House 1130 00:56:32,800 --> 00:56:35,400 Corbray. We reformed the religion a 1131 00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:36,800 little bit. We reformed the face of the 1132 00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:39,320 seven to have a Corbray feel to it. 1133 00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:43,760 We had a really outstanding religious figure who was able to 1134 00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:45,280 pull that off. It's a difficult thing to do, 1135 00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:47,480 reforming the faith of the seven, but only in their area. 1136 00:56:47,480 --> 00:56:49,200 The faith of the seven is still dominant in the rest of the 1137 00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:51,160 world. So got a lot of work to do, but 1138 00:56:51,160 --> 00:56:52,960 it's been a lot of fun doing that. 1139 00:56:53,960 --> 00:56:56,560 Question from Guilty Undertaker. Also, there's a parallel with 1140 00:56:56,560 --> 00:56:58,960 Alice Karstark fling to the wall and John arranging her marriage 1141 00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:00,640 to Sigourne. Good catch. 1142 00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:02,800 We happen to have that one in our notes for the end. 1143 00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:04,400 If we do have enough time for the parallels we'll be 1144 00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:05,840 mentioning that one. But very good catch. 1145 00:57:05,840 --> 00:57:08,640 I'd love to see y'all catch some of these things as well. 1146 00:57:08,720 --> 00:57:10,520 I like that one because it intersects with John. 1147 00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:13,760 Yeah, and and she thinks it's Arya, like she was the number 1148 00:57:13,760 --> 00:57:15,960 one Leon, a parallel. Yeah, I feel of all the like 1149 00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:19,400 examples of a woman marrying a man to escape another man, this 1150 00:57:19,400 --> 00:57:21,480 is one of the strongest parallels because of that. 1151 00:57:21,560 --> 00:57:26,120 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And this is, and it's, it's 1152 00:57:26,120 --> 00:57:31,000 almost a the similarities there are pretty huge too, because her 1153 00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:32,400 uncle wants to marry her and he's awful. 1154 00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:34,440 He's not, as you know, he's more awful than Robert. 1155 00:57:34,440 --> 00:57:37,400 You know, Robert is maybe would have been a bad husband, but 1156 00:57:37,400 --> 00:57:39,680 this guy would have probably killed Alice, you know, So it's 1157 00:57:39,680 --> 00:57:42,200 the way Robert probably wouldn't have done that wasn't that bad. 1158 00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:46,480 So a question of marriage, several of you all sent 1159 00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:49,000 questions about this section about whether there was a 1160 00:57:49,000 --> 00:57:50,600 marriage and where it might have taken place. 1161 00:57:50,600 --> 00:57:53,560 So shout outs to a couple of y'all who sent questions in 1162 00:57:53,680 --> 00:57:56,880 Randamir Mitra as well and a couple of the rest of y'all 1163 00:57:57,360 --> 00:58:02,520 appreciate the questions. Right before Ned Stark relives 1164 00:58:02,640 --> 00:58:06,400 the Tower of Joy in the streets of King's Landing when when he 1165 00:58:06,400 --> 00:58:10,240 fights the Kingsguard, Jamie Lannister, his party of 3 kills 1166 00:58:10,240 --> 00:58:13,240 7 of Jamie's men. Very suspicious numbering there 1167 00:58:13,240 --> 00:58:16,560 George. And right after this, right 1168 00:58:16,560 --> 00:58:19,920 before this, rather, he thinks of something Lyanna said to him. 1169 00:58:20,120 --> 00:58:23,200 Quote. Robert will never keep to 1 bed, 1170 00:58:23,200 --> 00:58:26,760 Lyanna had told him at Winterfell on the night long 1171 00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:29,800 ago, when their father had promised her hand to the young 1172 00:58:29,800 --> 00:58:33,720 Lord of Storm's End. I hear he has gotten a child on 1173 00:58:33,720 --> 00:58:37,960 some girl in the Veil. Ned had held the babe in his 1174 00:58:37,960 --> 00:58:41,040 arms. He could scarcely deny her, nor 1175 00:58:41,040 --> 00:58:44,840 would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what 1176 00:58:44,840 --> 00:58:48,920 Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that 1177 00:58:48,920 --> 00:58:53,000 he was a good man and true, who would love her with all his 1178 00:58:53,000 --> 00:58:55,440 heart. Liana had only smiled. 1179 00:58:55,920 --> 00:59:00,880 Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature. 1180 00:59:01,040 --> 00:59:03,160 His reputation preceded him even back then. 1181 00:59:03,160 --> 00:59:04,840 Yeah, and he did have a child. Of course. 1182 00:59:04,840 --> 00:59:06,920 That's Mia Stone. We know exactly who that is. 1183 00:59:07,200 --> 00:59:10,280 So, again, this is what I was talking about earlier when I 1184 00:59:10,280 --> 00:59:12,360 said this puts a dent in the notion that Liana married 1185 00:59:12,360 --> 00:59:14,480 Rhaegar solely for love. What does she just say? 1186 00:59:14,480 --> 00:59:17,120 Your love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's 1187 00:59:17,120 --> 00:59:20,320 nature. This is not some frivolous 1188 00:59:20,480 --> 00:59:22,800 teenager. This is these are not the words 1189 00:59:22,800 --> 00:59:26,880 of a person that's just lost to love and just thinks about 1190 00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:29,480 marriage. And this is not young Sansa 1191 00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:32,640 here. This is a much more mature 1192 00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:35,720 person here than we, you might normally think when you hear a 1193 00:59:36,040 --> 00:59:39,080 16 year old girl or 16 year old anyone. 1194 00:59:39,080 --> 00:59:40,720 This is gender doesn't matter here. 1195 00:59:40,720 --> 00:59:43,160 It's just you won't expect necessarily a young person to 1196 00:59:43,160 --> 00:59:47,120 speak with this maturity and and with this insight. 1197 00:59:47,440 --> 00:59:50,920 Love is sweet. Who says that when they're 16. 1198 00:59:50,920 --> 00:59:53,800 You know, in that way that is a really that's a very mature and 1199 00:59:53,800 --> 00:59:56,440 kind of dark almost like yeah, she was really really didn't 1200 00:59:56,440 --> 00:59:59,720 want to marry Robert. I think this is can't be 1201 00:59:59,720 --> 01:00:03,440 understated. And Ned also tells Robert 1202 01:00:03,440 --> 01:00:06,400 personally you saw her beauty but not the iron underneath. 1203 01:00:06,720 --> 01:00:11,280 Again, George very telling because think about how George 1204 01:00:11,280 --> 01:00:15,480 uses metal as a metaphor. We've seen Stannis will Iron 1205 01:00:15,480 --> 01:00:17,720 will break before she bends, and indeed. 1206 01:00:18,520 --> 01:00:21,320 She ran off. She broke before she bent for 1207 01:00:21,320 --> 01:00:22,560 sure. She was not giving up. 1208 01:00:22,560 --> 01:00:24,440 She's not going. Oh, well, I got no choice. 1209 01:00:24,440 --> 01:00:26,320 I'm marrying Robert. What choice do I have? 1210 01:00:26,320 --> 01:00:29,000 No, she took her only chance, the chance that most women 1211 01:00:29,000 --> 01:00:31,400 wouldn't be able to take or wouldn't be capable of taking or 1212 01:00:31,400 --> 01:00:36,000 would not dare to take. But they're not most people. 1213 01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:39,080 Again, gender aside, most people do not have the quote UN quote 1214 01:00:39,080 --> 01:00:42,720 iron underneath that Ned saw in his sister. 1215 01:00:42,720 --> 01:00:45,360 That was one of the many reasons he loved her and respected her. 1216 01:00:45,600 --> 01:00:50,520 So I think this is kind of a under the radar, underlooked 1217 01:00:50,520 --> 01:00:53,520 possibility for Liana is that her own interests are very 1218 01:00:53,560 --> 01:00:55,680 important here. This isn't just she's fell for 1219 01:00:55,680 --> 01:00:59,160 Rhaegar, ran off with him and not screwed up and mixed into 1220 01:00:59,160 --> 01:01:00,560 this prophecy and it all went bad for her. 1221 01:01:00,840 --> 01:01:04,000 That I that's not. Who really thinks George RR 1222 01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:08,320 Martin made it that simple? Come on, he's never that simple. 1223 01:01:09,000 --> 01:01:10,880 I think that love was a part of it. 1224 01:01:10,920 --> 01:01:13,960 I think it was a big part of it, but it was if anyone out there 1225 01:01:13,960 --> 01:01:16,280 says it's the only thing, I will disagree with you. 1226 01:01:16,880 --> 01:01:18,520 I will disagree with you strenuously. 1227 01:01:19,120 --> 01:01:21,960 So there was pragmatic stuff in in play here. 1228 01:01:22,200 --> 01:01:24,240 Prophecy, getting away from Robert. 1229 01:01:24,240 --> 01:01:25,560 They both had something they wanted. 1230 01:01:25,640 --> 01:01:29,680 And yes, there was an initial attraction which was the anchor 1231 01:01:29,680 --> 01:01:31,480 to all this. They had something they knew 1232 01:01:31,480 --> 01:01:32,920 they could maybe build a little something to this. 1233 01:01:32,920 --> 01:01:35,280 They wanted to be together. So yes, there was a little bit 1234 01:01:35,280 --> 01:01:38,960 of wishful, but there was also a little bit of this is the thing 1235 01:01:38,960 --> 01:01:41,320 that will fix the problem that both of us had before we even 1236 01:01:41,320 --> 01:01:45,040 met each other. And yeah, I mean, she on the 1237 01:01:45,040 --> 01:01:48,040 other side though, I mean, she was a bit of a romantic. 1238 01:01:48,040 --> 01:01:49,560 There's definitely that element to her. 1239 01:01:49,560 --> 01:01:51,240 You know, there was definitely some of that here. 1240 01:01:51,240 --> 01:01:53,800 Again, I'm not trying to, I'm not trying to squash that idea 1241 01:01:53,800 --> 01:01:55,840 at all. I just think it's not a stand 1242 01:01:55,840 --> 01:01:57,240 alone idea. I don't think it was alone. 1243 01:01:57,240 --> 01:02:02,080 I mean, after all, Liana cried when she heard Rhaegar singing, 1244 01:02:02,240 --> 01:02:03,880 right? And then her brothers teased her 1245 01:02:03,880 --> 01:02:08,800 and she hit them, you know? So, you know, there's nuance 1246 01:02:08,800 --> 01:02:10,120 here, right? These aren't these. 1247 01:02:10,280 --> 01:02:11,560 These are George RR Martin characters. 1248 01:02:11,560 --> 01:02:13,080 They're not simple. They're not straightforward. 1249 01:02:13,080 --> 01:02:15,160 They don't just all work the same way. 1250 01:02:15,160 --> 01:02:17,040 They don't all just go the same way. 1251 01:02:17,040 --> 01:02:18,480 They don't all do the same things. 1252 01:02:19,240 --> 01:02:21,560 Yeah, there's a there's a lot to do with this here. 1253 01:02:22,640 --> 01:02:27,000 So we don't have to assume Rhaegar intended to marry her at 1254 01:02:27,000 --> 01:02:30,920 first. That's the part that maybe she 1255 01:02:30,920 --> 01:02:33,120 brought to the table. Maybe he just needed the third 1256 01:02:33,120 --> 01:02:35,360 child and didn't care about marriage. 1257 01:02:35,360 --> 01:02:36,960 Like to him, the marriage isn't important. 1258 01:02:36,960 --> 01:02:41,280 Again, his second son or his second child is the one that 1259 01:02:41,280 --> 01:02:44,280 he's focused on here. His third child for him is just 1260 01:02:44,280 --> 01:02:46,480 supporting the efforts of his son. 1261 01:02:46,760 --> 01:02:50,240 Yeah, why would it matter to him if a girl supporting his male 1262 01:02:50,240 --> 01:02:53,440 son is a bastard? Yeah, I can't come up with a 1263 01:02:53,440 --> 01:02:54,560 reason why that would matter at all. 1264 01:02:54,800 --> 01:02:59,520 So again, it seems like the marriage part, that's Liana, 1265 01:02:59,600 --> 01:03:03,560 that's the part that she needs out of this deal because she 1266 01:03:03,560 --> 01:03:05,240 doesn't want to have to be forced to marry Robert. 1267 01:03:05,240 --> 01:03:08,560 That's her escape. So it's almost like that's her 1268 01:03:08,560 --> 01:03:10,600 leverage. She's like, OK, you want me to 1269 01:03:10,600 --> 01:03:12,680 we love each other. You want me to bury this third 1270 01:03:12,680 --> 01:03:14,360 head of the dragon? OK, then marry me. 1271 01:03:14,360 --> 01:03:18,480 That's that's my, that's what I need from from you to make this 1272 01:03:18,480 --> 01:03:20,040 happen. You know, I we'll both, we'll 1273 01:03:20,040 --> 01:03:21,560 both give, we'll both compromise. 1274 01:03:21,640 --> 01:03:23,320 You know, you give this, I give that. 1275 01:03:23,320 --> 01:03:26,400 And the thing I need from you is marriage. 1276 01:03:26,400 --> 01:03:30,240 I need that ring so I don't have to marry that stupid Robert guy, 1277 01:03:30,320 --> 01:03:33,160 right? I think that's a highly logical, 1278 01:03:33,320 --> 01:03:37,960 makes a lot of sense, and is a better idea than than Rhaegar 1279 01:03:37,960 --> 01:03:41,720 wanting a marriage because we can't come up with a good reason 1280 01:03:41,720 --> 01:03:44,000 for why he would want that. It doesn't really fit. 1281 01:03:44,000 --> 01:03:45,560 All he needs is another kid. He doesn't. 1282 01:03:45,560 --> 01:03:47,880 It doesn't have to be trueborn. This is a guy who didn't care 1283 01:03:47,880 --> 01:03:49,760 about politics. So what does he care about 1284 01:03:49,760 --> 01:03:52,080 trueborn or not trueborn? What does that even matter to 1285 01:03:52,080 --> 01:03:53,680 it? And we're talking about prophecy 1286 01:03:53,920 --> 01:03:56,320 Princess that was promised doesn't call for trueborn 1287 01:03:56,320 --> 01:04:00,440 children, certainly not especially given that doesn't 1288 01:04:00,480 --> 01:04:04,680 looks like John, who might be part of the Azor High conundrum, 1289 01:04:05,320 --> 01:04:07,760 is potentially not trueborn, potentially is. 1290 01:04:07,760 --> 01:04:08,840 And that's what we're talking about. 1291 01:04:08,840 --> 01:04:10,800 Now, isn't that kind of funny that we barely mentioned Jon 1292 01:04:10,800 --> 01:04:13,960 Snow to this point? We're very focused on Regar and 1293 01:04:13,960 --> 01:04:16,880 Leona before that point, but obviously Jon Snow is 1294 01:04:17,160 --> 01:04:19,120 technically one of the characters deeply impacted by 1295 01:04:19,120 --> 01:04:22,320 all this, just, you know, after the fact. 1296 01:04:23,720 --> 01:04:26,640 Jonas Jane mentions that scene also makes her think of a grit 1297 01:04:26,640 --> 01:04:29,280 as a parallel to Liana, the spear wife who cried at the song 1298 01:04:29,280 --> 01:04:31,000 about the death of the race of giants. 1299 01:04:31,080 --> 01:04:32,280 Yeah. Yeah. 1300 01:04:32,280 --> 01:04:34,960 There was also some taunting, a little gentle mockery. 1301 01:04:34,960 --> 01:04:37,880 Egret kind of like smack John for for wondering why she was 1302 01:04:37,880 --> 01:04:40,680 crying about that. He didn't quite get it, but 1303 01:04:40,680 --> 01:04:41,880 yeah, that's, that's really good. 1304 01:04:41,880 --> 01:04:44,080 That's really good. And and John kind of ran off 1305 01:04:44,080 --> 01:04:47,480 with Egret in a way, you know, And the blue rose story is part 1306 01:04:47,480 --> 01:04:49,920 of their tale. I could Grit and and him talk 1307 01:04:49,920 --> 01:04:52,240 about the blue Bard or the blue the blue Bard. 1308 01:04:52,560 --> 01:04:55,080 That's not the reference. I meant the blue rose bail, the 1309 01:04:55,080 --> 01:04:56,440 Bard. That's where I was gone with 1310 01:04:56,440 --> 01:04:57,800 that. Yeah. 1311 01:04:58,320 --> 01:04:59,520 Guilty. Undertaker says. 1312 01:04:59,520 --> 01:05:02,560 Was Lyanna crying just because Rhaegar's song was so beautiful 1313 01:05:03,200 --> 01:05:05,720 or because she had dreamed of what was to come and knew what 1314 01:05:05,720 --> 01:05:06,200 it meant? Yeah. 1315 01:05:06,200 --> 01:05:08,040 I like this question. I've considered it, too. 1316 01:05:08,040 --> 01:05:12,040 Like there's no strong evidence were evidence at all that Liana 1317 01:05:12,040 --> 01:05:17,120 had any sort of dreams or supernatural anything going on. 1318 01:05:17,800 --> 01:05:19,520 Rhaegar made it as well. Like Rhaegar might have had 1319 01:05:19,520 --> 01:05:21,280 dreams, Either of them could have had dreams. 1320 01:05:22,640 --> 01:05:24,160 So we have to leave that as an open question. 1321 01:05:24,480 --> 01:05:26,400 There's there's definitely nothing that just says, yeah, 1322 01:05:26,400 --> 01:05:29,560 Liana had a conduit to the old gods. 1323 01:05:29,560 --> 01:05:32,920 She was having dreams. Nothing tells us that she's a 1324 01:05:32,920 --> 01:05:35,440 Stark though, which means it's possible. 1325 01:05:35,520 --> 01:05:36,840 So we can't eliminate it. But. 1326 01:05:37,840 --> 01:05:41,520 Not to be overly influenced by House of the Dragons TV cannon, 1327 01:05:41,760 --> 01:05:45,600 but even someone could not be a dreamer per SE and still be 1328 01:05:45,600 --> 01:05:51,320 exposed to the prophecy or to dreams through Hartree if that 1329 01:05:51,320 --> 01:05:54,520 were the case, that she saw something but we didn't normally 1330 01:05:54,520 --> 01:05:55,760 dream. That's a good point, I mean 1331 01:05:55,840 --> 01:05:58,600 anyway I've seen non dreamers have pretty powerful dreams like 1332 01:05:58,600 --> 01:06:01,000 Theon and Jamie and. Yeah, you're right. 1333 01:06:01,000 --> 01:06:01,960 Even in the books we've seen that. 1334 01:06:01,960 --> 01:06:04,360 So yeah, she could have not normally been a dreamer, but 1335 01:06:04,360 --> 01:06:06,960 slept somewhere weird and had a funky dream. 1336 01:06:06,960 --> 01:06:09,320 Put her head on a where would stump, You know, she's out in 1337 01:06:09,320 --> 01:06:10,800 the wild sometimes. That could have happened. 1338 01:06:10,800 --> 01:06:12,440 Yeah. So, yeah, it's absolutely 1339 01:06:12,440 --> 01:06:14,280 possible. Maybe she had heard the song 1340 01:06:14,280 --> 01:06:16,000 before in her dreams. And it was like, it was like, 1341 01:06:16,000 --> 01:06:17,080 oh, the crap, I'm hearing it again. 1342 01:06:17,920 --> 01:06:22,360 But either way, the specifics are lost to us or if they even 1343 01:06:22,360 --> 01:06:23,560 exist. But it's a good theory. 1344 01:06:23,560 --> 01:06:25,320 It's a good idea. Something we should we should 1345 01:06:25,320 --> 01:06:28,760 keep in mind as a possibility, especially as we move forward 1346 01:06:28,760 --> 01:06:30,040 into some other supernatural options. 1347 01:06:30,040 --> 01:06:34,120 Here, I also want to remind you all about Ryze software. 1348 01:06:34,200 --> 01:06:37,880 It has been really good for us keeping us focused. 1349 01:06:38,960 --> 01:06:43,400 One thing it's really useful for is single click identifying is 1350 01:06:43,400 --> 01:06:46,480 what is a distraction to you and what is work. 1351 01:06:46,480 --> 01:06:49,360 For example, for me, I look at YouTube for work purposes 1352 01:06:49,360 --> 01:06:53,160 sometimes and and Ryze once asked me, hey, are you, Are you 1353 01:06:53,160 --> 01:06:55,360 sure you want to do this? Isn't, shouldn't you be working 1354 01:06:55,360 --> 01:06:57,360 right now? And I'm like, no, actually, this 1355 01:06:57,360 --> 01:06:59,880 is work. I'm watching other videos 1356 01:06:59,880 --> 01:07:01,520 relevant than watching history videos and stuff. 1357 01:07:01,520 --> 01:07:04,240 That's that's helping me learn about whatever topic I was 1358 01:07:04,480 --> 01:07:08,560 researching at the time. And that's really useful to me. 1359 01:07:08,680 --> 01:07:10,440 If you're like me at all, you're scatterbrained. 1360 01:07:11,000 --> 01:07:14,840 The modern world with the Internet 25 tabs open at a time. 1361 01:07:14,840 --> 01:07:18,040 It is really hard not to be, oh, shiny thing over there, shiny 1362 01:07:18,040 --> 01:07:19,440 thing over here. That is me. 1363 01:07:20,000 --> 01:07:22,160 It's amazing. I get any episode written ever 1364 01:07:22,160 --> 01:07:27,160 given that, but Ryze is very helpful and just reminding me to 1365 01:07:27,160 --> 01:07:30,920 keep keep that narrow view. Don't don't get too distracted. 1366 01:07:30,920 --> 01:07:32,800 It's it's fine to let your imagination wander. 1367 01:07:32,800 --> 01:07:35,320 It's helpful sometimes to writing episodes, but too much 1368 01:07:35,320 --> 01:07:37,840 of that and I'm just next thing I know I'm reading about 1369 01:07:37,840 --> 01:07:39,920 something completely unrelated to anything and I'm definitely 1370 01:07:39,920 --> 01:07:42,280 not working. Yeah, For me, there's all sorts 1371 01:07:42,280 --> 01:07:46,600 of times where I start working on some tech thing and it's not 1372 01:07:46,600 --> 01:07:50,040 really that important really. It's not pressing compared to my 1373 01:07:50,040 --> 01:07:52,360 other work. And rise will be like, is this a 1374 01:07:52,360 --> 01:07:54,960 distraction? And I do have to sit and take 1375 01:07:54,960 --> 01:07:57,400 stock. I'm like, well, this is kind of 1376 01:07:57,400 --> 01:07:59,920 a work, but it's not the work that I need to be doing right 1377 01:07:59,920 --> 01:08:01,840 now. It is a distraction. 1378 01:08:01,840 --> 01:08:05,000 Let me pivot back to the time sensitive work that I have. 1379 01:08:05,240 --> 01:08:07,840 So I love Rise. It's indispensable to me. 1380 01:08:07,840 --> 01:08:10,880 Not only does it help you focus, but it helps you prioritize, 1381 01:08:10,920 --> 01:08:14,400 like decide what is the most important, decide what is most 1382 01:08:14,960 --> 01:08:16,399 highest priority versus low priority. 1383 01:08:16,399 --> 01:08:18,479 So yeah, very useful and it's very affordable. 1384 01:08:18,720 --> 01:08:21,800 You can go to Rise. You can follow the link in the 1385 01:08:21,800 --> 01:08:25,600 description and use the code Westeros 3 to get 25% off all 1386 01:08:25,600 --> 01:08:27,399 payments within the first three months. 1387 01:08:27,720 --> 01:08:30,160 And yeah, Ryze is pretty affordable and. 1388 01:08:30,160 --> 01:08:32,960 Ryze with AZ. With AZ, yes important to note 1389 01:08:32,960 --> 01:08:36,600 there small amount of small subscription fee to increase 1390 01:08:36,600 --> 01:08:38,880 your productivity. Easy, easy call. 1391 01:08:38,880 --> 01:08:41,800 In my opinion if it works even a little bit, that's a good, very 1392 01:08:41,800 --> 01:08:45,040 good trade off. All right, where and how? 1393 01:08:45,040 --> 01:08:49,560 We, we looked at the map earlier and we took note of how little 1394 01:08:49,560 --> 01:08:51,399 there is. That's obvious for a candidate 1395 01:08:51,399 --> 01:08:53,600 for where they met. But again, the meeting place is 1396 01:08:53,600 --> 01:08:57,000 perhaps less important than what they what came immediately next 1397 01:08:57,000 --> 01:09:00,880 before the Tower of Joy, which is the potential of a marriage. 1398 01:09:01,800 --> 01:09:06,160 So where did they get married? Again, the Isle of Faces is by 1399 01:09:06,160 --> 01:09:10,560 far our best candidate and OK, but how, how did they go to the 1400 01:09:10,560 --> 01:09:11,640 gods? How do they go to the Isle of 1401 01:09:11,640 --> 01:09:12,960 Faces? And why would they go to the? 1402 01:09:12,960 --> 01:09:14,439 Isle the wedding Isle of faces though. 1403 01:09:15,399 --> 01:09:17,560 The wedding Isle of Faces. That's good. 1404 01:09:17,760 --> 01:09:19,800 Well, they needed some. They needed to have witnesses 1405 01:09:19,800 --> 01:09:22,359 and they couldn't bring, you know, anyone else over because 1406 01:09:22,359 --> 01:09:24,279 it's no one could know about this. 1407 01:09:25,000 --> 01:09:27,560 So it's one of the very few places South of the Neck where 1408 01:09:27,560 --> 01:09:32,120 there are still wild weirwoods growing and they can't go to 1409 01:09:32,120 --> 01:09:34,399 some other castle, God's Wood. They're trying to be secret. 1410 01:09:34,439 --> 01:09:37,240 So where do they go? Like what choice do they have if 1411 01:09:37,240 --> 01:09:41,560 they're trying to get married? And let's not go to the show for 1412 01:09:41,560 --> 01:09:43,399 an example. I actually think the show did a 1413 01:09:43,399 --> 01:09:46,479 good job with the Tower of Joy, but with the Liana Rhaegar stuff 1414 01:09:46,479 --> 01:09:48,680 in general, no, not so much, not not good at all. 1415 01:09:48,680 --> 01:09:50,600 They, they, they were there didn't understand their 1416 01:09:50,600 --> 01:09:52,800 relationship. They didn't understand a lot of 1417 01:09:52,800 --> 01:09:54,320 the set up. They missed a bajillion 1418 01:09:54,320 --> 01:09:58,400 parallels. So the idea that it was written 1419 01:09:58,400 --> 01:10:02,960 down in a book, let alone discovered by anybody, is silly 1420 01:10:02,960 --> 01:10:05,320 because it the whole point was them keeping it a secret. 1421 01:10:05,320 --> 01:10:07,440 Why would it be written down? There was no Septon present. 1422 01:10:07,960 --> 01:10:10,280 A septon makes no sense. A because it's septon as a 1423 01:10:10,280 --> 01:10:13,360 witness. B because neither of them care 1424 01:10:13,360 --> 01:10:14,640 about the faith of the seven here. 1425 01:10:14,880 --> 01:10:17,960 If Leon is the one pushing the wedding, then she gets married 1426 01:10:18,120 --> 01:10:20,640 in an Old God ceremony. That's her call. 1427 01:10:20,720 --> 01:10:22,000 She's the one pushing for the marriage. 1428 01:10:22,000 --> 01:10:24,720 It would be under her faith, and Rhaegar doesn't. 1429 01:10:24,720 --> 01:10:27,600 And if Rhaegar's pushing the marriage, then he probably 1430 01:10:27,600 --> 01:10:30,640 doesn't really doesn't matter which type of wedding they have, 1431 01:10:30,640 --> 01:10:31,840 he just needs them to be married. 1432 01:10:31,840 --> 01:10:34,720 But again, we have very little reason to suspect Rhaegar was 1433 01:10:34,720 --> 01:10:37,400 the one pushing for the wedding. So again, focus on Leon here. 1434 01:10:37,960 --> 01:10:41,560 If it's her marriage, her demand, her escape from Robert, 1435 01:10:41,680 --> 01:10:43,920 and it's going to be under the auspices of her religion. 1436 01:10:44,640 --> 01:10:46,200 And there's the spot right there. 1437 01:10:46,200 --> 01:10:47,560 They're not far from the Isle of Faces. 1438 01:10:47,560 --> 01:10:51,400 They're already pretty close by and they're very unceremonial. 1439 01:10:51,400 --> 01:10:57,800 We see Jane fake Aria, Jane Poole and Ramsay's wedding at A 1440 01:10:57,800 --> 01:11:01,520 Dance with Dragons and it's they kneel and they pray and there's 1441 01:11:01,520 --> 01:11:04,720 silence and cloaking of the bride and her husband's cloak 1442 01:11:05,480 --> 01:11:08,720 and that's about it. Everything else is kind of quiet 1443 01:11:08,720 --> 01:11:11,200 observance and it doesn't require witnesses. 1444 01:11:11,200 --> 01:11:13,120 Sometimes it does. I mean, there were witnesses at 1445 01:11:13,120 --> 01:11:17,520 at Jane and and Ramsay's wedding, but they didn't have to 1446 01:11:17,520 --> 01:11:19,160 be there. The the heart tree was the only 1447 01:11:19,160 --> 01:11:22,920 witness that really mattered. So yeah, definitely throw away 1448 01:11:22,920 --> 01:11:26,160 the book I the show ideas from this and focus on what makes a 1449 01:11:26,160 --> 01:11:28,840 lot more sense for Liana. The the septon idea makes no 1450 01:11:28,840 --> 01:11:32,400 sense, but the Isle of Faces, Werewood's heart trees, That 1451 01:11:32,400 --> 01:11:35,320 makes a lot of sense. It explains the lack of 1452 01:11:35,320 --> 01:11:37,040 witnesses. It fits Leona's belief. 1453 01:11:38,120 --> 01:11:42,000 And if if it was, again, if it was Rhaegar pushing it, it's a 1454 01:11:42,000 --> 01:11:43,560 polygamous marriage. They wouldn't do that under the 1455 01:11:43,560 --> 01:11:44,720 seven. You wouldn't have a polygamous 1456 01:11:44,720 --> 01:11:48,720 marriage under the seven, right? He could put his black and red 1457 01:11:48,720 --> 01:11:51,800 dragon cloak over her shoulders under the watch of numerous 1458 01:11:51,800 --> 01:11:52,840 heart trees. So, yeah. 1459 01:11:52,840 --> 01:11:54,480 And so don't think there was a SEPTA here. 1460 01:11:54,480 --> 01:11:57,800 So maybe, maybe the Rhaegar seven thing isn't the best part 1461 01:11:57,800 --> 01:12:00,760 of this argument, but there's enough else here that makes it 1462 01:12:00,760 --> 01:12:04,280 pretty straightforward, I think. And it is a difficult to to gain 1463 01:12:04,280 --> 01:12:07,280 say this option. Now again, this is where we come 1464 01:12:07,280 --> 01:12:10,560 back to Howlin Reid because first of all, this once again 1465 01:12:10,560 --> 01:12:12,480 supports the idea that it was Liana's idea to get married 1466 01:12:12,480 --> 01:12:14,960 because Rhaegar, Isle of Faces, what's his connection to that? 1467 01:12:14,960 --> 01:12:16,280 Like he doesn't have that connection. 1468 01:12:16,280 --> 01:12:18,040 She does. And why does she have that? 1469 01:12:18,040 --> 01:12:20,120 Not just because she's an old God worshipper, that's not 1470 01:12:20,120 --> 01:12:22,240 enough because she has a connection to Howlin. 1471 01:12:22,440 --> 01:12:24,360 Rewind a bit. What happens? 1472 01:12:24,520 --> 01:12:29,200 Howlin Reid, We're told he goes to the Isle of Faces a year 1473 01:12:29,200 --> 01:12:32,160 before the Tournament of Harrenhal or a winter before the 1474 01:12:32,160 --> 01:12:33,760 Tournament of Harrenhal. Quite a while before the 1475 01:12:33,760 --> 01:12:35,600 tournament. Fahrenhal stays there all 1476 01:12:35,600 --> 01:12:37,880 through winter, all all through winter. 1477 01:12:37,880 --> 01:12:41,160 He's on the Isle of Faces, according to how Mira and Jojen. 1478 01:12:41,400 --> 01:12:45,240 Then he departs the Isle of Faces to go to the tournament. 1479 01:12:45,440 --> 01:12:47,640 He's there all that time, and this is what he leaves for, to 1480 01:12:47,640 --> 01:12:49,800 go to the tournament. He gets beaten up by those 1481 01:12:49,800 --> 01:12:52,160 Squires. Liana comes on the scene, 1482 01:12:52,160 --> 01:12:55,120 scatters the Squires, says, hey, you're attacking my father's 1483 01:12:55,120 --> 01:12:58,360 man, brings him to her tent, tends his wounds, treats him 1484 01:12:58,360 --> 01:12:59,760 well. You know, they'd get to 1485 01:12:59,760 --> 01:13:02,000 chatting, whatever. Maybe this is when Ned meets 1486 01:13:02,000 --> 01:13:05,880 him, Who knows? Somehow throughout all this, we 1487 01:13:05,880 --> 01:13:08,640 get a potential that Lyanna has gone to the Isle of Faces. 1488 01:13:08,640 --> 01:13:12,200 So at some point he told her about it would be the 1489 01:13:12,200 --> 01:13:15,360 expectation or the the the answer, the thing that settles 1490 01:13:15,360 --> 01:13:16,920 this or connects these two points. 1491 01:13:17,840 --> 01:13:23,040 So he's a her way to access the aisle because yeah, maybe the 1492 01:13:23,040 --> 01:13:25,520 winds would blow her away or the Ravens would drive her off. 1493 01:13:25,520 --> 01:13:27,560 That's what we're normally told happens when someone tries to 1494 01:13:27,560 --> 01:13:30,160 sail there, but Howland has already been there. 1495 01:13:30,160 --> 01:13:33,680 We know he's allowed. So if he brings Liana and 1496 01:13:33,680 --> 01:13:39,160 Rhaegar with him, he's the the ambassador to the aisle, for 1497 01:13:39,160 --> 01:13:41,760 lack of a better term. He's the way they could get 1498 01:13:41,760 --> 01:13:42,960 there. So again, that wouldn't be 1499 01:13:42,960 --> 01:13:45,080 through Rhaegar, that would be through Liana, through her 1500 01:13:45,080 --> 01:13:47,520 connection to him. So they have permission to be 1501 01:13:47,520 --> 01:13:49,240 there. In other words, through through 1502 01:13:49,320 --> 01:13:51,880 Howland's invite or whoever, whatever. 1503 01:13:52,040 --> 01:13:56,200 However that works, he's the the conduit to making that happen. 1504 01:13:56,640 --> 01:14:00,640 And this may have added to the whole like prophetic nature to 1505 01:14:00,640 --> 01:14:03,480 the whole, like this is where we're doing the right thing 1506 01:14:03,480 --> 01:14:06,840 here. Rhaegar is introduced to some 1507 01:14:06,840 --> 01:14:09,040 supernatural elements that maybe he's not that familiar with. 1508 01:14:09,800 --> 01:14:13,160 The old gods are approving of this seemingly. 1509 01:14:13,160 --> 01:14:15,440 They're like, yes, join them together. 1510 01:14:15,440 --> 01:14:19,040 We approve of what you're doing. And if we get really meta, they 1511 01:14:19,040 --> 01:14:23,080 would support potentially stopping the others. 1512 01:14:23,080 --> 01:14:28,360 They, that might be what is also amongst their wishes. 1513 01:14:28,360 --> 01:14:31,480 So they might be supportive of this for deep meta, supernatural 1514 01:14:31,480 --> 01:14:33,280 reasons. So that might have had a lot of 1515 01:14:33,280 --> 01:14:34,560 meaning to him outside of just the marriage. 1516 01:14:34,560 --> 01:14:36,880 The, the, the fact that the, even the old gods seem to be 1517 01:14:36,880 --> 01:14:42,400 supporting his, his quest to support the principle. 1518 01:14:42,400 --> 01:14:44,640 I promised at first thinking it was him, then thinking it's his 1519 01:14:44,640 --> 01:14:48,240 son and whatever he thinks he's doing to avert the end of 1520 01:14:48,240 --> 01:14:50,920 humanity, the old gods might be supportive of that. 1521 01:14:51,280 --> 01:14:56,200 And again, as I referred earlier, all this really sets up 1522 01:14:56,720 --> 01:14:59,640 the idea that Bran can see it by looking through the werewoods 1523 01:14:59,640 --> 01:15:02,320 into the past and just seeing when on radar, standing right 1524 01:15:02,320 --> 01:15:05,320 there as they're being married in front of the heart tree, 1525 01:15:06,600 --> 01:15:11,040 apart from Hal and Reid and witness to the wedding there 1526 01:15:11,040 --> 01:15:12,520 could be in part from the heart trees. 1527 01:15:12,520 --> 01:15:14,040 Maybe, yeah, maybe there were green men there. 1528 01:15:14,040 --> 01:15:15,640 Maybe there were. Maybe maybe not visible. 1529 01:15:15,640 --> 01:15:17,440 Maybe they were observing hidden. 1530 01:15:18,640 --> 01:15:21,800 One question we got was whether there would have been any of 1531 01:15:21,800 --> 01:15:27,800 the, the creepy stuff like sacrifice or the other things we 1532 01:15:27,800 --> 01:15:29,360 hear about happening during the pact. 1533 01:15:29,400 --> 01:15:33,440 You know, the sacrifice and binding to the trees, maybe 1534 01:15:33,440 --> 01:15:35,640 drinking the Jojen pace kind of things. 1535 01:15:36,000 --> 01:15:37,400 I don't think this is this kind of marriage. 1536 01:15:37,400 --> 01:15:38,960 They're not being married to the trees. 1537 01:15:38,960 --> 01:15:43,760 Bran was being wed to the trees. They are being wed by the trees. 1538 01:15:44,000 --> 01:15:48,240 Again, we use Ramsay and Jane Poole's wedding as an example. 1539 01:15:48,240 --> 01:15:53,600 We've seen a northern wedding, the blood stuff apparently if it 1540 01:15:53,600 --> 01:15:56,040 ever was a part of that, it isn't doesn't seem to be now. 1541 01:15:56,720 --> 01:15:58,480 So I think there's a 2 difference here. 1542 01:15:58,480 --> 01:16:01,240 There's the wedded to the trees, which is what branded which 1543 01:16:01,240 --> 01:16:03,360 involves the sacrifice and the blood and the magic. 1544 01:16:03,360 --> 01:16:08,600 This is more of a just having the trees be stand insurance as 1545 01:16:08,600 --> 01:16:12,520 priests as the the person performing the wedding. 1546 01:16:13,560 --> 01:16:15,360 I'm not saying there isn't a supernatural element to it, but 1547 01:16:15,360 --> 01:16:18,640 I don't think they I don't think the actual union involves blood 1548 01:16:18,640 --> 01:16:22,160 sacrifice. So as another kind of side note 1549 01:16:22,160 --> 01:16:25,200 to Alan Reid here, much is made of Ned and Howland. 1550 01:16:26,200 --> 01:16:29,600 But the more I think about it, the more I think this is about 1551 01:16:29,600 --> 01:16:33,080 Howland and Lyanna, that when Howland went to the Tower of Joy 1552 01:16:33,080 --> 01:16:35,280 with Ned, it was for her, not for him. 1553 01:16:35,880 --> 01:16:39,840 It could be both, but I think it's becoming pretty clear, if 1554 01:16:39,840 --> 01:16:43,080 it wasn't already, that his relationship with her was the 1555 01:16:43,080 --> 01:16:44,640 important one. Not not that it was romantic. 1556 01:16:44,640 --> 01:16:47,080 I'm saying of course not, That's he marries she marries Rhaegar, 1557 01:16:47,080 --> 01:16:49,240 etcetera. But what he did, what she did 1558 01:16:49,240 --> 01:16:53,840 for him was something that he was very grateful for and it 1559 01:16:54,160 --> 01:16:57,200 created a bond between them very likely that lasted and may have 1560 01:16:57,200 --> 01:17:00,160 been crucial to this whole thing. 1561 01:17:00,240 --> 01:17:04,400 Howlin could have been with her. He could have helped her escape. 1562 01:17:04,400 --> 01:17:08,640 He could have been this, this, this crucial element to their 1563 01:17:08,880 --> 01:17:12,360 engagement slash wedding, the actual ceremony, right? 1564 01:17:13,520 --> 01:17:15,960 So this is it's also possible that Howlin has the same guilt 1565 01:17:15,960 --> 01:17:18,360 Benjin has. Remember, Benjin joined the 1566 01:17:18,360 --> 01:17:21,200 watch after all this. And there's lots of speculation 1567 01:17:21,200 --> 01:17:23,560 as we had in this episode that he did so because he felt 1568 01:17:23,560 --> 01:17:26,680 guilty. Howlin as well could be in that 1569 01:17:26,680 --> 01:17:30,080 spot. He has not left the neck since 1570 01:17:30,320 --> 01:17:32,000 returning home after the Tower of Joy. 1571 01:17:32,880 --> 01:17:37,800 So Benjen, a Shara Dane as well, may have killed herself because 1572 01:17:37,800 --> 01:17:42,040 she might have been the reason that Ned found the Tower of Joy 1573 01:17:42,040 --> 01:17:44,440 which led to the death of her own brother. 1574 01:17:44,440 --> 01:17:46,000 She might feel responsible for that. 1575 01:17:46,440 --> 01:17:50,000 So Howlin might feel responsible for Lyanna too because he helped 1576 01:17:50,000 --> 01:17:52,240 her get married to Rhaegar. And look how that turned out. 1577 01:17:52,600 --> 01:17:56,000 It all backfired so horribly. So he could feel the same level 1578 01:17:56,000 --> 01:17:58,920 of guilt or similar level of guilt as someone like Benjen or 1579 01:17:58,920 --> 01:18:00,800 Shara. Just a lot of tragedy 1580 01:18:00,800 --> 01:18:03,440 surrounding these characters. Again, we come back to the point 1581 01:18:03,440 --> 01:18:08,320 that this is so personal for so many people in in a dramatically 1582 01:18:08,320 --> 01:18:10,200 different level of ways like this. 1583 01:18:10,400 --> 01:18:14,000 Compare this level of guilt to the anger of Cersei for being 1584 01:18:14,000 --> 01:18:16,040 called Liana in bed. She doesn't know Liana 1585 01:18:16,040 --> 01:18:18,880 personally, she doesn't care, but she sure has a reason to 1586 01:18:19,200 --> 01:18:22,480 hate Robert's attraction to her and Robert's obsession with her 1587 01:18:22,480 --> 01:18:24,800 because it was so thrown in her face so much. 1588 01:18:24,800 --> 01:18:27,920 You know, you don't have to like Cersei to to recognize that as a 1589 01:18:28,800 --> 01:18:30,600 pretty crappy thing. It was a horrible thing to have 1590 01:18:30,600 --> 01:18:32,520 happen on your wedding night. Like, truly horrible. 1591 01:18:32,520 --> 01:18:35,080 Like who? Who Really just terrible. 1592 01:18:35,360 --> 01:18:36,680 So. OK, so once they're married, 1593 01:18:36,680 --> 01:18:39,800 though, that might be that. That might be it for the 1594 01:18:39,800 --> 01:18:43,120 important speculation on what happened between then and Tower 1595 01:18:43,120 --> 01:18:44,280 of Joy. It may have just gone. 1596 01:18:44,280 --> 01:18:48,080 OK, we're married now. Let's go to the Tower of Joy and 1597 01:18:48,080 --> 01:18:49,960 have a kid. Let's bang. 1598 01:18:50,200 --> 01:18:56,240 Let's bang the Tower of Joy. Talk about Joy. 1599 01:18:56,240 --> 01:19:00,200 Yeah, it's the So he knew about this place already. 1600 01:19:00,200 --> 01:19:02,320 He knew it was obscure. Remember, folks, the Tower Joy. 1601 01:19:02,320 --> 01:19:04,360 That's not the name of it. That is Rhaegar's nickname for 1602 01:19:04,360 --> 01:19:07,480 it is just some obscure nameless watchtower, which is proof that 1603 01:19:07,480 --> 01:19:10,600 they were evading consequences, which is proof that they didn't 1604 01:19:10,600 --> 01:19:12,960 want to be found. They knew that they needed to 1605 01:19:12,960 --> 01:19:16,360 hide until it was time to ask for forgiveness, right? 1606 01:19:16,360 --> 01:19:20,960 Better to it's totally a case of better to ask for forgiveness 1607 01:19:20,960 --> 01:19:22,600 than permission. Because if he asked his father, 1608 01:19:22,600 --> 01:19:27,160 hey Dad, can I run off with my second wife for a while to go 1609 01:19:27,160 --> 01:19:29,560 make a child? I don't think that would have 1610 01:19:29,560 --> 01:19:32,960 gone over very well. But as it turned out, it went 1611 01:19:32,960 --> 01:19:35,760 pretty badly anyway. Because they were so secretive, 1612 01:19:35,760 --> 01:19:38,320 because they were hiding, because no one knew where they 1613 01:19:38,320 --> 01:19:42,680 were. Well, that was a problem because 1614 01:19:43,080 --> 01:19:44,920 Rhaegar was needed. He needed to come back. 1615 01:19:44,920 --> 01:19:47,120 He needed to rally the Targaryens. 1616 01:19:47,120 --> 01:19:49,480 He needed to rally their their vassals, their banners like they 1617 01:19:49,480 --> 01:19:50,480 were. A lot of them were just sitting 1618 01:19:50,480 --> 01:19:52,480 on the fence going oh, oh, civil war's breaking out. 1619 01:19:52,480 --> 01:19:54,400 Maybe we should just ride this out. 1620 01:19:55,000 --> 01:19:58,480 If Rhaegar was there rallying people a lot more than might 1621 01:19:58,480 --> 01:20:01,920 have been on his side, they might not have turned to Robert. 1622 01:20:03,200 --> 01:20:06,120 The the rebels got a lot of momentum while Rhaegar was in 1623 01:20:06,120 --> 01:20:07,720 the South. If they've been able to find 1624 01:20:07,720 --> 01:20:10,280 him, he might have come back sooner, but because he. 1625 01:20:10,880 --> 01:20:13,360 Hid so effectively from his own people. 1626 01:20:14,360 --> 01:20:17,560 Whoops. This also might have kept them 1627 01:20:17,560 --> 01:20:19,960 from knowing what happened. They might not have known about 1628 01:20:19,960 --> 01:20:22,480 the executions. They might not have known that 1629 01:20:23,440 --> 01:20:26,800 the Brandon said come out and die and that that led to 1630 01:20:26,800 --> 01:20:28,600 Brandon's death in Ricard's, that they might have been 1631 01:20:28,600 --> 01:20:30,720 completely unaware of that for several months. 1632 01:20:30,720 --> 01:20:31,680 They had to have learned about it. 1633 01:20:31,680 --> 01:20:33,320 Eventually. They learned the war was going 1634 01:20:33,320 --> 01:20:34,840 on. They learned that and they 1635 01:20:34,840 --> 01:20:36,920 brought Rhaegar back. He went to the war and died 1636 01:20:36,920 --> 01:20:40,200 facing Robert. But before that, we cannot 1637 01:20:40,200 --> 01:20:42,240 assume they knew anything about what was happening in the North 1638 01:20:42,240 --> 01:20:43,840 because they didn't. They were hiding, they were 1639 01:20:43,840 --> 01:20:46,440 trying to not hear anything, and they didn't want anyone to know 1640 01:20:46,440 --> 01:20:47,960 where they were. So how is news going to reach 1641 01:20:47,960 --> 01:20:50,680 them if not? Yeah, it maybe it's if Rhaegar 1642 01:20:50,680 --> 01:20:54,880 knew and still stayed there. Well, it just speaks to how he 1643 01:20:54,880 --> 01:20:58,000 was focused on the prophecy and having this third child more so 1644 01:20:58,000 --> 01:20:59,720 than anything else. The politics didn't matter. 1645 01:20:59,720 --> 01:21:02,360 He figured whatever happens there doesn't matter. 1646 01:21:02,560 --> 01:21:05,480 Even civil war maybe was something that he might have 1647 01:21:05,480 --> 01:21:07,040 just said. Well, that's still less 1648 01:21:07,040 --> 01:21:08,920 important. Probably not though, because 1649 01:21:08,920 --> 01:21:10,600 that's why he rode N just to stop it. 1650 01:21:10,600 --> 01:21:13,720 He did eventually say, OK, I got to I got to go. 1651 01:21:14,360 --> 01:21:15,880 So that's that's really big deal. 1652 01:21:16,280 --> 01:21:19,320 It's understandable secrecy given what they're trying to do, 1653 01:21:19,520 --> 01:21:23,520 but it was misguided and really backfired, really backfired. 1654 01:21:26,320 --> 01:21:28,560 So let's go deeper into that backfiring. 1655 01:21:28,560 --> 01:21:30,520 The fallout. We're calling it here. 1656 01:21:31,040 --> 01:21:32,960 The impact for other characters, houses and such. 1657 01:21:33,480 --> 01:21:37,880 Again, I have to remind us that actual truth, it matters far 1658 01:21:37,880 --> 01:21:39,960 less than perceived truth. In cases like this. 1659 01:21:39,960 --> 01:21:41,720 People are acting on what they think is the truth. 1660 01:21:41,720 --> 01:21:46,240 And again, most people think that Rhaegar kidnapped Liana and 1661 01:21:46,240 --> 01:21:50,400 that caused a lot of damage, enhanced, stoked the flames of 1662 01:21:50,400 --> 01:21:51,600 rebellion. They were already there. 1663 01:21:51,920 --> 01:21:54,800 Again, Robert arranged the marriage to Liana himself. 1664 01:21:54,800 --> 01:21:56,360 It wasn't arranged by his parents. 1665 01:21:56,360 --> 01:22:00,480 He chose her himself. It's it's easy to forget that 1666 01:22:00,480 --> 01:22:03,600 because of his age and all that, but this is part of that block 1667 01:22:03,600 --> 01:22:06,240 against Aries, the the South run ambitions, the northern 1668 01:22:06,240 --> 01:22:08,760 marriages and all that. But for Robert may not have seen 1669 01:22:08,760 --> 01:22:10,680 it that way. It just for Rickard it, it's 1670 01:22:10,680 --> 01:22:12,880 slotted in there perfectly. So he would have been all for 1671 01:22:12,880 --> 01:22:14,280 it. He might have been hoping 1672 01:22:14,280 --> 01:22:16,160 something like that happened in the 1st place like well, which 1673 01:22:16,160 --> 01:22:18,920 of the great houses in the South can I marry Liana to? 1674 01:22:19,600 --> 01:22:21,080 It worked itself out. Liana. 1675 01:22:21,320 --> 01:22:23,520 Robert chose her. He's like that's perfect. 1676 01:22:24,640 --> 01:22:28,160 Obviously it wasn't perfect, but it seemed would have seemed 1677 01:22:28,160 --> 01:22:31,920 perfect to Ricard at the time. The initial impetus was pretty 1678 01:22:31,920 --> 01:22:34,280 simple. Robert fell for Leanna and Ned 1679 01:22:34,280 --> 01:22:37,520 indicates that it was mostly about her looks. 1680 01:22:37,520 --> 01:22:40,000 He was into her because of what she looked like and her 1681 01:22:40,000 --> 01:22:41,880 personality. She's brave and Robert respects 1682 01:22:41,880 --> 01:22:45,280 bravery, but he didn't really know her. 1683 01:22:45,600 --> 01:22:51,640 And as much as Ned defends Robert, he doesn't, he's, he 1684 01:22:51,640 --> 01:22:53,920 doesn't really think they knew each other very well. 1685 01:22:53,920 --> 01:22:56,080 Well, he, he, I guess he thinks Leanna knew Robert better than 1686 01:22:56,080 --> 01:22:59,600 Robert knew Leanna. So they were going to be, 1687 01:22:59,600 --> 01:23:02,400 they're probably a little worried right as well, at the 1688 01:23:02,400 --> 01:23:05,960 Tournament of Harrenhal, they have all these plans to marry 1689 01:23:05,960 --> 01:23:10,160 various Southron Lords, daughters and sons to each 1690 01:23:10,160 --> 01:23:13,160 other, and including Rickard. All these marriages, all these 1691 01:23:13,160 --> 01:23:15,880 entangling alliances were important for their block to to 1692 01:23:15,880 --> 01:23:19,200 restrain Ares or to move against him perhaps. 1693 01:23:20,240 --> 01:23:22,960 And what were they going to be thinking about with Rhaegar? 1694 01:23:22,960 --> 01:23:25,760 Like trying to steal Liana away from that? 1695 01:23:25,760 --> 01:23:28,600 That throws off all their plans. It's like a domino effect. 1696 01:23:28,600 --> 01:23:29,880 So they're like, wait, does he know? 1697 01:23:29,880 --> 01:23:32,880 Is he, is he doing this to throw off our plans? 1698 01:23:32,880 --> 01:23:34,440 Is they? They must have been kind of 1699 01:23:34,440 --> 01:23:38,680 paranoid about what this meant, all all the while ignorant to 1700 01:23:38,720 --> 01:23:41,800 the fact that it's a prophecy. That is what's really driving 1701 01:23:41,800 --> 01:23:43,640 him here. They probably had no clue, or if 1702 01:23:43,640 --> 01:23:46,640 they did, they didn't understand what that was all about. 1703 01:23:46,680 --> 01:23:48,960 Like prophecy. What do you what do you mean 1704 01:23:48,960 --> 01:23:50,560 like? And it might not matter to them 1705 01:23:50,560 --> 01:23:53,280 even if they did, because the bottom line is still the 1706 01:23:53,280 --> 01:23:55,880 political situation is still that doesn't change given 1707 01:23:55,880 --> 01:23:57,760 knowledge of the prophecy. They're like, oh, Rhaegar's 1708 01:23:57,760 --> 01:24:00,280 trying to save the world. In that case, it doesn't matter 1709 01:24:00,280 --> 01:24:04,560 that you know, this political alliance against Ares is blowing 1710 01:24:04,560 --> 01:24:07,360 up right before our faces because of this unexpected 1711 01:24:07,360 --> 01:24:10,360 marriage, because this daughter of Lord Stark doesn't isn't 1712 01:24:10,360 --> 01:24:13,720 participating in our grand plan of creating a bunch of alliances 1713 01:24:13,720 --> 01:24:15,400 through marriages. Nope. 1714 01:24:16,760 --> 01:24:18,920 So it really threw them for a loop. 1715 01:24:18,920 --> 01:24:20,680 They're like, what is Rhaegar doing? 1716 01:24:20,680 --> 01:24:23,520 And even if he's, if he's, is he, even if he's not throwing us 1717 01:24:23,520 --> 01:24:25,000 off on purpose, he's throwing us off. 1718 01:24:25,480 --> 01:24:30,880 So Stark, Aaron Tully and also Martel on their own because 1719 01:24:30,880 --> 01:24:32,880 they're not connected to this this block, but they are of 1720 01:24:32,880 --> 01:24:35,080 course connected to Rhaegar through marriage. 1721 01:24:35,080 --> 01:24:37,360 So they'd also be wondering what the heck is going on here. 1722 01:24:37,640 --> 01:24:39,960 So that's a lot of a lot of fallout just from that. 1723 01:24:39,960 --> 01:24:42,280 But there's more. Let's focus on the Martel's a 1724 01:24:42,280 --> 01:24:45,160 little more. First of all, very insulting. 1725 01:24:45,760 --> 01:24:50,040 We know from George's writings off, you know, outside of the 1726 01:24:50,040 --> 01:24:53,200 books that basically he described the scene to the 1727 01:24:53,200 --> 01:24:55,000 artist and he's like, I want these character to be 1728 01:24:55,000 --> 01:24:58,520 recognizable and I want their expressions on their face to be 1729 01:24:58,520 --> 01:25:02,400 telling when the blue wreath is being good. 1730 01:25:02,400 --> 01:25:08,960 And to Lyanna and Elia is described by George as stiff 1731 01:25:08,960 --> 01:25:13,640 backed, trying to pretend that nothing's wrong, like she's 1732 01:25:13,640 --> 01:25:15,040 trying to make a brave face of it. 1733 01:25:15,040 --> 01:25:20,000 But the the overly stiff back is the sign that she's not OK. 1734 01:25:20,400 --> 01:25:22,760 And why would she be? And there's some people that 1735 01:25:22,760 --> 01:25:25,920 think Elia was in on this. There is no evidence for that. 1736 01:25:25,920 --> 01:25:27,320 There is counter evidence for that. 1737 01:25:27,840 --> 01:25:29,840 So I really don't think so. I think she was this as 1738 01:25:29,840 --> 01:25:32,520 surprised as everybody else. It might have been in the back 1739 01:25:32,520 --> 01:25:36,320 of her head that he would take in another wife or or have a 1740 01:25:36,320 --> 01:25:39,440 lover because he did say to her face, there must be 1/3 head of 1741 01:25:39,440 --> 01:25:43,360 the dragon. And Elia may have realized that 1742 01:25:43,840 --> 01:25:45,680 she's not going to be the one to bear that child. 1743 01:25:45,960 --> 01:25:49,080 I speculated before that maybe they didn't know or she wasn't 1744 01:25:49,080 --> 01:25:51,800 capable of having a third child by then, but they might have. 1745 01:25:51,800 --> 01:25:54,200 They very well might have. And so he's basically saying to 1746 01:25:54,200 --> 01:25:56,040 his wife, I got to have a third kid. 1747 01:25:56,040 --> 01:25:57,280 And we both know it's not going to be with you. 1748 01:25:57,840 --> 01:25:59,120 But that doesn't mean she knows it's Lyanna. 1749 01:25:59,120 --> 01:26:01,480 That doesn't mean she doesn't wants to be embarrassed in front 1750 01:26:01,480 --> 01:26:04,600 of everybody. So these two things don't 1751 01:26:04,600 --> 01:26:07,200 necessarily connect directly. You can have both. 1752 01:26:08,520 --> 01:26:11,680 So they'd be worried as well if what if Rhaegar has a child with 1753 01:26:11,680 --> 01:26:13,200 Lyanna? That would be terrible for this 1754 01:26:13,200 --> 01:26:14,720 thing. Not only if they get married or 1755 01:26:14,720 --> 01:26:17,440 run off together. There's so many ways for this to 1756 01:26:17,440 --> 01:26:20,560 go wrong. And turns out the the child of 1757 01:26:20,920 --> 01:26:23,680 of Rhaegar and Lyanna made Catelyn feel threatened instead 1758 01:26:23,680 --> 01:26:26,000 of any of these other people. But that's a whole nother story. 1759 01:26:26,440 --> 01:26:29,720 But we should stick with Catelyn because again, she's our one of 1760 01:26:29,720 --> 01:26:33,240 our best sources on on the Brandon stuff here again, he was 1761 01:26:33,240 --> 01:26:36,040 on his way to marry her when the abduction interrupted the plan. 1762 01:26:36,480 --> 01:26:39,360 He rode off to confront Rhaegar again, thinking it was an actual 1763 01:26:39,360 --> 01:26:41,440 abduction. And he never came back because 1764 01:26:41,440 --> 01:26:45,920 he was killed by by Aries. So five to six years of 1765 01:26:45,920 --> 01:26:48,440 betrothal and to be prevented at the last moment, that is a huge 1766 01:26:48,440 --> 01:26:49,680 deal. I know we mentioned it already, 1767 01:26:49,680 --> 01:26:52,120 but let's let's get a little deeper in it this time. 1768 01:26:53,240 --> 01:26:58,920 Brandon is not just this trigger happy like runs off to do quick 1769 01:26:58,920 --> 01:27:01,720 violence thing all the time. This is a very special 1770 01:27:01,720 --> 01:27:03,400 situation, a very unusual situation. 1771 01:27:03,400 --> 01:27:06,160 Yes, Brandon was had the wolfblood in him, but it's not 1772 01:27:06,160 --> 01:27:07,760 like he did things like this all the time. 1773 01:27:07,800 --> 01:27:10,760 Rhaegar was already very guilty of stuff like the embarrassment 1774 01:27:10,760 --> 01:27:12,440 in front of everybody that was huge. 1775 01:27:12,760 --> 01:27:16,560 So he's basically saying, hey, I'm going to make you my 1776 01:27:16,560 --> 01:27:20,520 mistress in front of everybody. That of course is extremely off 1777 01:27:21,080 --> 01:27:25,040 the off the beaten path, very rude, very not how this culture 1778 01:27:25,040 --> 01:27:28,680 works. So it looks like an Aegon the 1779 01:27:28,680 --> 01:27:31,480 Fourth thing, maybe like, I'm taking whatever woman I want. 1780 01:27:31,560 --> 01:27:34,360 You know? From Brandon's perspective, he 1781 01:27:34,360 --> 01:27:36,000 doesn't know what kind of man Rhaegar is. 1782 01:27:36,000 --> 01:27:39,240 It just looks like the Targaryen Prince is, is just having what 1783 01:27:39,240 --> 01:27:42,120 he wants, doing what he wants, and damn the consequences. 1784 01:27:42,160 --> 01:27:43,680 He doesn't know. Again, once again, he doesn't 1785 01:27:43,680 --> 01:27:46,360 know anything about Rhaegar's interest in prophecy, let alone 1786 01:27:46,360 --> 01:27:50,080 his sincerity in that belief. So he's basically saying I can 1787 01:27:50,080 --> 01:27:51,640 take who I want. I can have whatever woman I 1788 01:27:51,640 --> 01:27:54,480 want. And to add to that notion is 1789 01:27:54,480 --> 01:27:56,800 Aries, who definitely had that attitude. 1790 01:27:57,000 --> 01:28:00,760 So he's like, this is the son of a guy who was a womanizer who 1791 01:28:00,760 --> 01:28:02,560 was violent towards women potentially. 1792 01:28:02,640 --> 01:28:05,720 I don't know if Brendan knew that about Aries, but he good 1793 01:28:05,720 --> 01:28:08,760 chance he did. So this is the son of that man. 1794 01:28:09,160 --> 01:28:11,600 He doesn't necessarily know that Rhaegar isn't like him, but he 1795 01:28:11,600 --> 01:28:16,600 has a you know, in this world, people often assume that sons 1796 01:28:16,600 --> 01:28:18,920 and daughters are like their parents, which not the worst 1797 01:28:18,920 --> 01:28:22,280 assumption ever, but it's often going to be wrong, like in this 1798 01:28:22,280 --> 01:28:23,880 case. But we can see why Brandon might 1799 01:28:23,880 --> 01:28:27,320 have thought, or at least been concerned that Rhaegar was like 1800 01:28:27,320 --> 01:28:29,440 Aries. But here's another wrinkle. 1801 01:28:29,480 --> 01:28:33,440 How? How did Brandon know that his 1802 01:28:33,440 --> 01:28:36,320 sister was abducted or. Well, yeah, because that's what 1803 01:28:36,320 --> 01:28:37,520 he believes. He believes she was abducted. 1804 01:28:37,520 --> 01:28:39,240 How do you find out that they ran off together? 1805 01:28:39,880 --> 01:28:43,920 Well, if Lyanna had guards and companions that she bolted from, 1806 01:28:44,120 --> 01:28:48,240 that's simple enough. They go and tell what happened. 1807 01:28:48,440 --> 01:28:50,040 They find out that way. That's pretty straightforward. 1808 01:28:50,040 --> 01:28:53,240 That's a really easy one. And, you know, they may have to. 1809 01:28:53,240 --> 01:28:55,120 They might be a little wary. They may be like, oh, we lost 1810 01:28:55,120 --> 01:28:55,880 her. Sorry. 1811 01:28:56,000 --> 01:28:56,920 That's the kind of thing you get. 1812 01:28:57,280 --> 01:28:59,400 You get punished for like, oh, we lost Lyanna. 1813 01:28:59,400 --> 01:29:02,880 But on the other hand, who's going to catch her? 1814 01:29:02,880 --> 01:29:05,560 Like, can you really blame them? Like, that's Liana, the the 1815 01:29:05,720 --> 01:29:11,680 amazing horse girl. But still, she can't legally 1816 01:29:11,680 --> 01:29:14,400 consent to going off with Rhaegar. 1817 01:29:14,400 --> 01:29:17,280 This isn't like, oh, she chose to go off with Rhaegar. 1818 01:29:17,280 --> 01:29:18,800 In that case, never mind. Go ahead. 1819 01:29:18,800 --> 01:29:21,120 No, it doesn't work that way in the society. 1820 01:29:21,120 --> 01:29:23,760 She's 16. Imagine this in our world. 1821 01:29:23,920 --> 01:29:25,200 Yeah, our world is way different. 1822 01:29:25,200 --> 01:29:27,800 But in this case, it's pretty similar. 1823 01:29:28,000 --> 01:29:32,000 If you are driving your car and you see on the side of the road 1824 01:29:32,000 --> 01:29:36,360 a 16 year old girl hitch hiking. If you drive that girl across 1825 01:29:36,360 --> 01:29:39,800 state lines, you have committed a crime, a big crime, whether 1826 01:29:39,800 --> 01:29:42,480 she wants to go or not, whether your intentions are 100% pure or 1827 01:29:42,480 --> 01:29:45,600 not. That is a crime in in our 1828 01:29:45,600 --> 01:29:47,880 society and it's pretty similarly a crime here. 1829 01:29:48,560 --> 01:29:51,720 It's not necessarily because of her age, but she is a minor. 1830 01:29:51,920 --> 01:29:54,440 They don't use that term, but it's the same concept. 1831 01:29:54,800 --> 01:29:58,640 Her Lord father has all the rights here, she doesn't. 1832 01:29:59,200 --> 01:30:02,360 Rhaegar has no right to take her away whether she says she wants 1833 01:30:02,360 --> 01:30:04,760 it or not it's her. If anything, it's his 1834 01:30:04,760 --> 01:30:07,280 responsibility to return her to her family. 1835 01:30:07,680 --> 01:30:11,560 He can't be party to breaking the betrothal between 2 great 1836 01:30:11,560 --> 01:30:13,640 Lords. That's not what the Crown Prince 1837 01:30:13,640 --> 01:30:15,640 is supposed to do. The crown should not be doing 1838 01:30:15,640 --> 01:30:17,400 things like that. They should be supporting these, 1839 01:30:17,400 --> 01:30:21,440 not adding to the problem, right? 1840 01:30:21,440 --> 01:30:25,400 So Even so, Liana's wants and wishes here are irrelevant to 1841 01:30:25,640 --> 01:30:28,040 the crime that Rhaegar has committed in the eyes of her 1842 01:30:28,040 --> 01:30:29,840 family. There's a theory that 1843 01:30:29,840 --> 01:30:35,720 Littlefinger is the reason that Brandon found out about the the 1844 01:30:35,720 --> 01:30:40,280 abduction. After all, Brandon had just cut 1845 01:30:40,280 --> 01:30:42,680 Littlefinger up very badly in the duel. 1846 01:30:43,160 --> 01:30:46,840 And yeah, obviously he had a good reason to want to stop 1847 01:30:46,840 --> 01:30:49,160 Brandon from marrying Catlin because he wanted Catlin for 1848 01:30:49,160 --> 01:30:51,160 himself. That's the problem, though. 1849 01:30:51,280 --> 01:30:54,080 Littlefinger was badly wounded. He was laid up completely. 1850 01:30:54,320 --> 01:30:56,120 He was in bed. How's he supposed to get a 1851 01:30:56,120 --> 01:30:57,520 message to Brandon, tell him about this? 1852 01:30:57,520 --> 01:30:59,840 Well, he's Littlefinger, right? He has spies. 1853 01:30:59,840 --> 01:31:01,800 He has agents. The dude's a teenager at this 1854 01:31:01,800 --> 01:31:03,240 point. Does he really have that at this 1855 01:31:03,240 --> 01:31:04,680 point? Does he really have the ability 1856 01:31:04,680 --> 01:31:08,320 to give Brandon a secret message and and divert him like that? 1857 01:31:09,120 --> 01:31:11,320 Yeah, he might. He he maybe he might, he. 1858 01:31:11,320 --> 01:31:12,920 It's actually possible. Maybe this was like the 1859 01:31:12,920 --> 01:31:14,760 beginning of his realizing that he could. 1860 01:31:16,000 --> 01:31:18,720 I'm never going to win with the sword, but I can win this way. 1861 01:31:18,760 --> 01:31:22,960 That was like his. His is realizing that subtlety 1862 01:31:22,960 --> 01:31:25,680 is his weapon, not the sword. And he was like, well that was 1863 01:31:25,680 --> 01:31:28,160 naive of me to think I could beat a stark romantic 1864 01:31:28,160 --> 01:31:30,160 foolishness. But I can beat him this way. 1865 01:31:30,480 --> 01:31:35,240 I can sow lies, I can sow confusion, I can pit 2 great 1866 01:31:35,240 --> 01:31:38,880 houses against each other. It's a stretch because of his 1867 01:31:38,880 --> 01:31:41,840 age and his infirmity, his wound. 1868 01:31:42,400 --> 01:31:44,240 But we definitely cannot. I don't know if we can 1869 01:31:44,240 --> 01:31:47,520 completely throw it out, but I think we probably should look on 1870 01:31:47,520 --> 01:31:50,640 it with a lot of scepticism. Nina doesn't like it at all. 1871 01:31:50,640 --> 01:31:55,440 She's thinks it makes no sense because it just the the the 1872 01:31:55,440 --> 01:31:57,880 message that the logistics are just too difficult. 1873 01:31:57,880 --> 01:31:59,760 Like Hoster wanted him gone and far away. 1874 01:31:59,760 --> 01:32:03,560 So how is he going to allow this to happen? 1875 01:32:03,560 --> 01:32:06,520 How is Littlefinger going to know where Brandon is? 1876 01:32:06,520 --> 01:32:10,200 Like he doesn't have a spy network when he's 14, You know, 1877 01:32:10,200 --> 01:32:11,800 I just, he doesn't have the means for that. 1878 01:32:11,800 --> 01:32:13,120 He doesn't have money. He doesn't have. 1879 01:32:13,880 --> 01:32:15,080 Yeah. How's he paying these people? 1880 01:32:15,080 --> 01:32:15,960 Right. It just doesn't. 1881 01:32:15,960 --> 01:32:17,720 I don't know. There's a lot of problems here. 1882 01:32:17,720 --> 01:32:20,360 It's very tempting on the surface just because it's just 1883 01:32:20,360 --> 01:32:24,320 it it is kind of perfect in the in, in regards to the guy who 1884 01:32:24,320 --> 01:32:27,640 would absolutely want to split Brandon and Catlin up and the 1885 01:32:27,640 --> 01:32:30,920 timing of it right after Littlefinger has tried to win 1886 01:32:30,920 --> 01:32:34,840 her in a duel, but the logistics are very severely against it. 1887 01:32:35,280 --> 01:32:39,480 And wouldn't Cat know that? Wouldn't she know that Brandon 1888 01:32:39,480 --> 01:32:41,840 got the news from River Run? Maybe not. 1889 01:32:41,840 --> 01:32:45,840 But again, lots of questions. Why would Brandon believe it if 1890 01:32:45,840 --> 01:32:47,840 it came from Littlefinger? Maybe he lies about where it 1891 01:32:47,840 --> 01:32:51,400 came from, but this is just more levels of a very young man with 1892 01:32:51,400 --> 01:32:55,080 no means pulling off the kind of thing that he probably couldn't 1893 01:32:55,080 --> 01:32:56,440 pull off at that age. It's the kind of things he's 1894 01:32:56,440 --> 01:32:58,880 just able much able to much more able to pull off when he's older 1895 01:32:58,880 --> 01:33:03,440 and has lots of money and power. But as a teenager, that's it's 1896 01:33:03,480 --> 01:33:07,280 it's it's a tough sell for me now of the things that Leona 1897 01:33:07,280 --> 01:33:11,720 could have learned while she's away, you know, just after the 1898 01:33:11,720 --> 01:33:16,640 abduction and maybe before she even gets to the Tower of Joy 1899 01:33:16,640 --> 01:33:19,640 because, again, the timeline is is iffy here. 1900 01:33:20,440 --> 01:33:23,160 It's possible she learned about what happened to Brandon and her 1901 01:33:23,160 --> 01:33:25,400 father pretty quickly. We earlier speculated maybe she 1902 01:33:25,400 --> 01:33:26,960 didn't find out until much later. 1903 01:33:27,160 --> 01:33:29,560 But we should also consider that she found out pretty quickly. 1904 01:33:29,880 --> 01:33:32,560 But we still committed. She's like, well, yeah, I still 1905 01:33:32,560 --> 01:33:35,080 got to go off with you. I mean, maybe this is when it 1906 01:33:35,440 --> 01:33:37,320 turns dark for her. And she's like, OK, I don't want 1907 01:33:37,320 --> 01:33:41,080 this anymore. But Rhaegar is still determined 1908 01:33:41,080 --> 01:33:44,440 to make it happen because he's like, yeah, this is awful, but 1909 01:33:44,960 --> 01:33:47,160 end of the world. Yeah, isn't that worse? 1910 01:33:47,480 --> 01:33:52,040 So it's really bad for for Leon. Either way, It could be really, 1911 01:33:52,040 --> 01:33:54,080 really bad. It could almost get back to the 1912 01:33:54,080 --> 01:33:56,960 point where Robert was almost partly right If Leon had changed 1913 01:33:56,960 --> 01:34:00,240 her mind and didn't want to go with him after discovering just 1914 01:34:00,240 --> 01:34:04,440 how badly her running off would affect her family. 1915 01:34:04,760 --> 01:34:08,400 She's like Oh my God I just my it's my fault that my father and 1916 01:34:08,400 --> 01:34:10,880 brother are dead, it's my fault this war is happening. 1917 01:34:10,880 --> 01:34:13,320 That it's entirely possible Lyanna felt that way. 1918 01:34:14,360 --> 01:34:16,880 She was just trying to avoid a bad marriage and or believed in 1919 01:34:16,880 --> 01:34:18,440 the prophecy. Maybe Rhaegar convinced her of 1920 01:34:18,440 --> 01:34:20,840 that so that is a bit of a higher minded option, but she 1921 01:34:20,840 --> 01:34:24,960 did not foresee the fallout. I I really don't think so. 1922 01:34:25,120 --> 01:34:29,800 Same for Rhaegar, very similar. He loves Lyanna then from his 1923 01:34:29,800 --> 01:34:34,320 perspective his actions just led to the deaths of his betrothed 1924 01:34:34,320 --> 01:34:37,160 father and brother and civil war on top of that. 1925 01:34:37,160 --> 01:34:40,720 So they're both horribly hurting over this probably. 1926 01:34:40,880 --> 01:34:44,160 Unless he has no empathy for his beloved at all, which seems 1927 01:34:44,160 --> 01:34:46,560 unlikely. And again, I'm not subtracting 1928 01:34:46,560 --> 01:34:49,440 the the possibility of love between them being here, I just 1929 01:34:49,440 --> 01:34:52,000 think it was very complicated and very fraught with other 1930 01:34:52,560 --> 01:34:55,320 implications and and factors. So it's a high price to pay for 1931 01:34:55,320 --> 01:34:57,400 saving Westeros. All this, the loss of her 1932 01:34:57,400 --> 01:35:00,120 father, her brother, and causing civil war. 1933 01:35:01,080 --> 01:35:03,520 Rhaegar still might be willing to pay that price again. 1934 01:35:03,520 --> 01:35:06,440 It's that versus saving the whole continent, saving all of 1935 01:35:06,440 --> 01:35:08,920 humanity potentially. So the stakes are awfully high. 1936 01:35:10,200 --> 01:35:15,560 And This is why I think it's fair to blame Rhaegar more so 1937 01:35:15,560 --> 01:35:18,240 than Lyanna for all of this, by a lot. 1938 01:35:18,920 --> 01:35:23,000 Lyanna's 1415, yeah, she seemed mature for age, but still pretty 1939 01:35:23,000 --> 01:35:25,680 sheltered. Smart, maybe wise bond or years, 1940 01:35:25,680 --> 01:35:27,760 but not worldly, if that makes sense. 1941 01:35:28,120 --> 01:35:30,480 She's not if she's naive enough to think she can marry the Crown 1942 01:35:30,480 --> 01:35:32,160 Prince of Westeros and get away with it. 1943 01:35:32,400 --> 01:35:34,680 But it's Rhaegar's job. He's the Crown Prince. 1944 01:35:34,680 --> 01:35:37,000 He's the one to think about he he's supposed to be thinking 1945 01:35:37,000 --> 01:35:39,040 about the future of the realm and and in a sense he is. 1946 01:35:39,160 --> 01:35:41,240 He's thinking about it's supernatural future. 1947 01:35:41,240 --> 01:35:45,360 It's it's it's health from a much higher level perspective. 1948 01:35:45,600 --> 01:35:48,360 But still, I don't know why he can't do both. 1949 01:35:48,640 --> 01:35:51,040 Why can't you be like, well, we can also prevent civil war. 1950 01:35:51,040 --> 01:35:52,560 We don't have to have a civil war as part of this. 1951 01:35:52,560 --> 01:35:55,360 Can we can't we save the world without the civil war? 1952 01:35:56,000 --> 01:36:00,520 I've, I think that seemed possible, but maybe Rhaegar was 1953 01:36:00,520 --> 01:36:04,880 a little too focused on just this with the absence of other 1954 01:36:04,880 --> 01:36:07,080 considerations. He may have been too narrow 1955 01:36:07,080 --> 01:36:11,200 minded with his focus on the prophecy and perhaps even Liana 1956 01:36:11,480 --> 01:36:13,280 was disturbed by that in the long run. 1957 01:36:13,280 --> 01:36:15,320 No, the long run isn't very long here. 1958 01:36:15,320 --> 01:36:18,240 We're only talking, you know, a year roughly the the length of a 1959 01:36:18,240 --> 01:36:20,880 pregnancy with a few extra months added in probably. 1960 01:36:21,280 --> 01:36:23,360 But yeah, that's that's a big deal. 1961 01:36:23,360 --> 01:36:29,400 So not only did he act knowing that he would insult all these 1962 01:36:29,400 --> 01:36:34,240 families like he did at the Tournament of Harrenhal, and 1963 01:36:34,240 --> 01:36:37,360 then he followed that up by doubling down. 1964 01:36:37,360 --> 01:36:39,280 He was like, yeah, I'm embarrassing all you all, I'm 1965 01:36:39,280 --> 01:36:42,360 insulting you all, and now I'm going to run off with this woman 1966 01:36:42,360 --> 01:36:43,720 too. So I'm going to. 1967 01:36:43,880 --> 01:36:45,760 It's not going to stop there. It's going to get worse. 1968 01:36:46,120 --> 01:36:49,280 And he didn't seem to do much at all to push back against any 1969 01:36:49,280 --> 01:36:50,760 intended, any consequences there. 1970 01:36:50,760 --> 01:36:52,920 He had to know there'd be some fallout from this. 1971 01:36:53,200 --> 01:36:57,040 Yeah, OK, it's fair to say they wouldn't see civil war coming. 1972 01:36:57,280 --> 01:37:00,520 That doesn't mean they that doesn't absolve them. 1973 01:37:00,520 --> 01:37:02,760 And and Rhaegar, again, I agree with Nina that that Rhaegar 1974 01:37:02,760 --> 01:37:06,040 deserves far more blame here. The lion's share the, the 1975 01:37:06,040 --> 01:37:08,240 Dragon's share of the blame here, for sure. 1976 01:37:08,240 --> 01:37:11,240 He's the older guy. He's got the position of higher 1977 01:37:11,240 --> 01:37:13,720 responsibility and he's way more worldly than her. 1978 01:37:13,720 --> 01:37:16,120 He's been, he knows these houses and what they might do way 1979 01:37:16,120 --> 01:37:18,480 better than she would. So he has all the information, 1980 01:37:18,480 --> 01:37:20,680 all the knowledge, all the education that she doesn't. 1981 01:37:21,760 --> 01:37:23,560 So yeah, definitely more of it's on him. 1982 01:37:24,560 --> 01:37:28,400 Even with factors that we might discover later that might change 1983 01:37:28,400 --> 01:37:30,400 a lot of how we see this, it's hard for me to see that 1984 01:37:30,400 --> 01:37:32,040 differently because we're not going to, we're not going to 1985 01:37:32,040 --> 01:37:34,280 find out they're actually different ages than they are. 1986 01:37:34,640 --> 01:37:36,320 Right? Like that's yeah. 1987 01:37:36,680 --> 01:37:38,200 I don't see how that could change anything. 1988 01:37:38,200 --> 01:37:42,240 So I think they were all very surprised by what happened, but 1989 01:37:42,240 --> 01:37:44,880 they they were committed potentially to seeing it through 1990 01:37:44,880 --> 01:37:46,840 regardless of those horrible consequences. 1991 01:37:47,480 --> 01:37:50,880 But I want to make sure it's clear that Liana didn't 1992 01:37:50,880 --> 01:37:53,760 necessarily stay on track with Rhaegar throughout all that. 1993 01:37:53,760 --> 01:37:56,520 She may, we have to consider the possibility that she became 1994 01:37:56,520 --> 01:37:57,880 disillusioned with this whole thing. 1995 01:37:58,040 --> 01:38:01,240 And of course, the death of her father and brother would be a 1996 01:38:01,240 --> 01:38:03,080 big reason to start changing her mind. 1997 01:38:03,360 --> 01:38:06,160 Yeah. And with Rhaegar's focus being 1998 01:38:06,160 --> 01:38:10,000 what it was and his his intent and his just sadness and all 1999 01:38:10,000 --> 01:38:10,480 that. Yeah. 2000 01:38:10,480 --> 01:38:14,920 She may have heard the initial initial new relationship energy 2001 01:38:14,920 --> 01:38:16,720 might have worn off or something like that. 2002 01:38:17,360 --> 01:38:20,160 I like it as a parallel to Sansa, which you're going to get 2003 01:38:20,160 --> 01:38:23,160 to as well, but if that were true, it would be an additional 2004 01:38:23,160 --> 01:38:27,240 parallel to her because she also became disillusioned with her 2005 01:38:27,240 --> 01:38:29,040 Prince. That is very true. 2006 01:38:29,360 --> 01:38:31,280 Joffrey, yeah, she was super into the idea. 2007 01:38:31,280 --> 01:38:32,480 And then as soon as she got to know him. 2008 01:38:32,640 --> 01:38:34,520 Now, of course, when I was saying Rhaegar's like Joffrey. 2009 01:38:34,680 --> 01:38:37,040 Yeah, but just the idea that you could be like, oh, this is for, 2010 01:38:37,040 --> 01:38:38,600 this is what I want. And you're like, oh wait, no, 2011 01:38:38,600 --> 01:38:40,720 this isn't what I. Want, but I wanted it all yeah 2012 01:38:40,760 --> 01:38:42,840 yeah, yeah. Now a little bit more about 2013 01:38:42,840 --> 01:38:46,200 Jamie here and and Robert. Jamie, of course, is not. 2014 01:38:46,720 --> 01:38:48,680 He's not only sent home at the start of the tournament, he's 2015 01:38:48,680 --> 01:38:51,040 left in King's Landing when Rhaegar rides for the Trident. 2016 01:38:51,320 --> 01:38:56,280 So he's there when Rhaegar comes back from the Tower of Joy, gets 2017 01:38:56,280 --> 01:38:59,720 the army together and heads out to the Trident to fight Robert 2018 01:38:59,720 --> 01:39:01,440 and says, hey, when I come back, we're going to make some 2019 01:39:01,440 --> 01:39:03,680 changes. Of course, he's referring to 2020 01:39:03,840 --> 01:39:06,240 maybe removing his father from the throne, but that doesn't 2021 01:39:06,240 --> 01:39:08,920 happen. Now Robert may have won anyway, 2022 01:39:09,280 --> 01:39:12,240 but I think that his misunderstanding of the scenario 2023 01:39:12,240 --> 01:39:16,160 actually helped him because Robert felt like the most 2024 01:39:16,160 --> 01:39:18,880 righteous man ever. He's like what? 2025 01:39:19,080 --> 01:39:21,920 He believed that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Liana. 2026 01:39:22,080 --> 01:39:25,800 He he knows for a fact that Rhaegar's father killed his best 2027 01:39:25,800 --> 01:39:28,000 friend's father and brother and called for his head. 2028 01:39:28,360 --> 01:39:31,040 His righteous fury is as righteous as can be. 2029 01:39:31,040 --> 01:39:35,240 Robert is 100% the good guy in his own mind, and he's mostly 2030 01:39:35,240 --> 01:39:37,240 right in this scenario. Right? 2031 01:39:37,480 --> 01:39:40,640 And there's really nothing like righteous anger to fuel morale. 2032 01:39:41,400 --> 01:39:43,960 Meanwhile Rhaegar is like sad prophecy man. 2033 01:39:43,960 --> 01:39:46,520 He's not like fighting for he doesn't have that. 2034 01:39:46,520 --> 01:39:49,800 Like he has fire for the prophecy, he has fire for 2035 01:39:49,800 --> 01:39:52,840 Lyanna, but he doesn't fire for beating Robert. 2036 01:39:53,240 --> 01:39:56,320 He didn't hate Robert probably, but Robert hated him. 2037 01:39:56,320 --> 01:39:58,240 Robert was fuelled by his hate for Rhaegar. 2038 01:39:58,240 --> 01:40:01,560 Rhaegar couldn't match that energy because he's to him. 2039 01:40:01,680 --> 01:40:04,040 Robert was just another step along the way to this prophecy 2040 01:40:04,040 --> 01:40:05,440 goal. Robert was just like a rung on 2041 01:40:05,440 --> 01:40:07,880 the ladder he didn't take seriously enough and oops. 2042 01:40:08,520 --> 01:40:10,440 You should have taken him seriously because that dude just 2043 01:40:10,440 --> 01:40:11,400 killed you. Yeah. 2044 01:40:11,400 --> 01:40:13,520 So I think that's really important, that when they met on 2045 01:40:13,520 --> 01:40:15,440 the Trident, I don't know that when we we did a battle of the 2046 01:40:15,440 --> 01:40:18,800 Trident episode, I'm not sure I mentioned that, that Robert's 2047 01:40:18,800 --> 01:40:20,680 motivation would have been so much greater. 2048 01:40:20,960 --> 01:40:24,160 His righteous anger would have been so much more, would have 2049 01:40:24,160 --> 01:40:25,160 been fueled by that. And. 2050 01:40:25,160 --> 01:40:26,640 And Rhaegar wouldn't have had any of that. 2051 01:40:26,640 --> 01:40:28,560 Probably not the anger. He may have had righteousness, 2052 01:40:28,560 --> 01:40:31,560 but not anger. So big deal there. 2053 01:40:32,840 --> 01:40:35,280 All right, let's talk about some Liana parallels. 2054 01:40:35,280 --> 01:40:37,480 We got a lot of these here, some small, some big. 2055 01:40:37,840 --> 01:40:39,920 Something that really gets me with this topic is the knowledge 2056 01:40:39,920 --> 01:40:43,040 that George has already seeded the earlier novels with 2057 01:40:43,040 --> 01:40:45,360 parallels and hints about Lyanna that we haven't caught yet. 2058 01:40:46,240 --> 01:40:49,240 We probably, I said that about Ned's chapters earlier that I 2059 01:40:49,240 --> 01:40:52,560 bet when we go back, when we, if we ever have the full story of 2060 01:40:52,560 --> 01:40:54,160 Lyanna or whatever full story we have. 2061 01:40:54,200 --> 01:40:57,360 However, whatever the full story means, there's going to be 2062 01:40:57,360 --> 01:41:00,880 things we look back on and go, oh, this was a reference. 2063 01:41:00,880 --> 01:41:02,720 This was a George put this clue here. 2064 01:41:02,720 --> 01:41:05,080 We didn't know what it meant at the time because we've seen him 2065 01:41:05,080 --> 01:41:08,040 do that so many times. It feels right to guess that 2066 01:41:08,040 --> 01:41:09,960 there's more of these. We just have yet to discover 2067 01:41:10,280 --> 01:41:12,680 because the the connecting points haven't been given to us 2068 01:41:12,680 --> 01:41:14,800 there. The whole he gives us the answer 2069 01:41:14,800 --> 01:41:16,840 before he gives us the question thing, well, we have the 2070 01:41:16,840 --> 01:41:18,200 answers. They're staring us right in the 2071 01:41:18,200 --> 01:41:19,240 face. We just don't know that they're 2072 01:41:19,240 --> 01:41:21,120 answers yet because he hasn't given us the questions. 2073 01:41:21,400 --> 01:41:25,280 I think that's a good way to sort of think about this. 2074 01:41:26,040 --> 01:41:29,160 Nina says as well that there's echoes of Liana's story in every 2075 01:41:29,160 --> 01:41:32,480 single Stark child. Maybe not Ricken, but even 2076 01:41:32,480 --> 01:41:36,640 Ricken kind of like runs away and hides and kind of escapes 2077 01:41:36,640 --> 01:41:39,720 for a while. So who knows? 2078 01:41:39,720 --> 01:41:41,240 And his story is not finished yet either. 2079 01:41:41,600 --> 01:41:43,560 Some of them are really subtle. Some of them are really on the 2080 01:41:43,560 --> 01:41:46,040 nose, for example. Some of them are like for the 2081 01:41:46,040 --> 01:41:48,320 readers to notice and the characters have no idea like 2082 01:41:48,320 --> 01:41:53,400 John has no idea how much Val is like Liana that his own mother, 2083 01:41:53,400 --> 01:41:56,240 you know, nor how much Alice Karstark. 2084 01:41:56,240 --> 01:41:59,480 We brought up the Alice Karstark situation before he's it's all 2085 01:41:59,480 --> 01:42:01,520 wrapped up in him thinking it was going to be Arya. 2086 01:42:01,520 --> 01:42:03,960 Then it's not, but it is still kind of a distant relative. 2087 01:42:04,160 --> 01:42:07,600 He has no idea how much this the Liana vibes are in that moment. 2088 01:42:07,600 --> 01:42:11,000 The reader's an astute reader is going to catch that or you're 2089 01:42:11,000 --> 01:42:13,360 going to you all now know that next time you reread you'll be 2090 01:42:13,360 --> 01:42:15,320 catching that. John had no idea. 2091 01:42:15,320 --> 01:42:17,520 It went right over his head. Of course he doesn't. 2092 01:42:17,760 --> 01:42:19,080 He doesn't even know who his mother is. 2093 01:42:19,080 --> 01:42:22,520 So let alone that Alice, our Stark situation is like that 2094 01:42:22,520 --> 01:42:25,960 situation. And and while Aria is the 2095 01:42:25,960 --> 01:42:31,400 constant Liana parallel, and again, she's ripe for some of 2096 01:42:31,400 --> 01:42:33,480 these undiscovered parallels that are probably still there. 2097 01:42:34,920 --> 01:42:37,960 I think if we're looking at Aria and Sansa, I think the things 2098 01:42:37,960 --> 01:42:39,720 that are in common is it's our for Aria, it's their 2099 01:42:39,720 --> 01:42:42,360 personalities. Some like their, their 2100 01:42:42,360 --> 01:42:45,640 disposition, their attitudes, their strength. 2101 01:42:46,280 --> 01:42:48,280 For Sansa, it's more about circumstances, life 2102 01:42:48,280 --> 01:42:50,600 circumstances, things that happened to her because, you 2103 01:42:50,680 --> 01:42:53,440 know, Aria technically was betrothed to a fray, but like 2104 01:42:53,440 --> 01:42:55,000 that hardly she hardly even thinks about that. 2105 01:42:55,480 --> 01:42:58,320 For Sansa, her her betrothal, her life at court. 2106 01:42:58,320 --> 01:42:59,680 It's like everything getting away. 2107 01:42:59,680 --> 01:43:02,400 It's it's it's it's like the center of her story for for the 2108 01:43:02,400 --> 01:43:05,000 first part, for Game of Thrones, clash of kings all the way until 2109 01:43:05,000 --> 01:43:07,960 she escapes from court. And even then, she's still kind 2110 01:43:07,960 --> 01:43:10,280 of in a in the hands of an enemy. 2111 01:43:10,280 --> 01:43:15,120 And as Elaine is going to marry someone that is actually kind of 2112 01:43:15,120 --> 01:43:21,080 a bit like Robert, right. Harry, the heir, is already 2113 01:43:21,080 --> 01:43:23,080 known to be a womanizer and has lots of bastards. 2114 01:43:23,480 --> 01:43:25,000 He's not a good fighter though, like Robert. 2115 01:43:25,000 --> 01:43:27,560 So he's just like a worse Robert. 2116 01:43:29,240 --> 01:43:32,480 So yeah, Sansa being married to the enemy, The enemy who slew 2117 01:43:32,480 --> 01:43:35,880 your father and other members of their family, right? 2118 01:43:36,400 --> 01:43:37,520 That's also what happened to her. 2119 01:43:38,240 --> 01:43:41,680 Her family hadn't had a big problem with the Lannisters 2120 01:43:42,120 --> 01:43:43,800 until after her betrothal to Joffrey. 2121 01:43:43,800 --> 01:43:46,280 Same as Rhaegar and Liana. They get together, then shortly 2122 01:43:46,280 --> 01:43:48,440 after Liana's father and brother were killed by Aries. 2123 01:43:48,440 --> 01:43:51,680 It's like, oh, I just married you and you're in law. 2124 01:43:51,680 --> 01:43:54,000 My in laws just killed my brother and father. 2125 01:43:54,000 --> 01:43:56,280 That's that's great. I tried to escape a marriage to 2126 01:43:56,280 --> 01:43:59,880 a brute and instead I got an in a father-in-law who was an even 2127 01:43:59,880 --> 01:44:00,880 worse brute. Damn it. 2128 01:44:01,400 --> 01:44:04,760 Let's also not forget there's a parallel that George originally 2129 01:44:04,760 --> 01:44:07,920 had laid out that changed from his original conception, but 2130 01:44:07,920 --> 01:44:10,640 it's still fun to mention here, which is that George was going 2131 01:44:10,640 --> 01:44:14,680 to have Rob killed by Joffrey in battle while Sansa was pregnant 2132 01:44:14,680 --> 01:44:16,520 with Joffrey's child. Hello. 2133 01:44:16,800 --> 01:44:20,560 Very similar to Rhaegar riding off the war to defeat Robert and 2134 01:44:20,560 --> 01:44:26,320 Ned while Liana is pregnant. So Liana's own brother is 2135 01:44:26,320 --> 01:44:28,720 Rhaegar's enemy and she's carrying his child. 2136 01:44:28,720 --> 01:44:31,600 Like what a talk about caught between 2 worlds here. 2137 01:44:31,840 --> 01:44:34,520 Also, Santa says to Joffrey, maybe my brother will bring me 2138 01:44:34,520 --> 01:44:36,160 your head. You know, he has that moment of 2139 01:44:36,160 --> 01:44:39,320 bravery right before the Battle of the Blackwater or I think 2140 01:44:39,320 --> 01:44:42,360 it's before that actually. But regardless, that's not long 2141 01:44:42,360 --> 01:44:46,040 after Ned is killed by Joffrey unexpectedly, which is very 2142 01:44:46,040 --> 01:44:49,000 similar to Aries's murder of Brandon and Ricard, which was no 2143 01:44:49,000 --> 01:44:51,160 one saw that coming. So it's even possible Liana went 2144 01:44:51,160 --> 01:44:53,240 that far. It's entirely possible again, 2145 01:44:53,520 --> 01:44:57,080 that when we're imagining that they were in love, maybe for 2146 01:44:57,080 --> 01:45:01,760 Liana it turned sour because not just her new in laws killed her 2147 01:45:01,760 --> 01:45:05,800 family, but because she might hate Rhaegar for it. 2148 01:45:05,800 --> 01:45:08,040 She might, that might turn the whole thing sour, not just 2149 01:45:08,920 --> 01:45:11,120 Aries, but she might just, I hate all this. 2150 01:45:11,120 --> 01:45:14,520 What have I done? You know, Santa even tried the 2151 01:45:14,520 --> 01:45:18,400 inverse of Liana's elopement. Liana escaped Robert by running 2152 01:45:18,400 --> 01:45:21,760 off with Rhaegar. Santa tried to escape not 2153 01:45:21,760 --> 01:45:25,120 marrying Joffrey by snitching to Cersei so she wouldn't have to 2154 01:45:25,120 --> 01:45:28,240 go away. So it was like Liana's escaped, 2155 01:45:28,560 --> 01:45:31,040 Santa didn't want to escape, but then she later did. 2156 01:45:31,040 --> 01:45:33,840 She's like, oops, I should have should have not tried to not 2157 01:45:33,840 --> 01:45:36,440 escape. And what happens? 2158 01:45:36,440 --> 01:45:39,600 It's the same thing like Liana, Santa is imprisoned in a tower 2159 01:45:39,760 --> 01:45:43,680 guarded by Kingsguard, which is what happens to Liana at the 2160 01:45:43,680 --> 01:45:46,080 tower. Joy stuck in a tower guarded by 2161 01:45:46,080 --> 01:45:48,120 Kingsguard. Thankfully for her, she wasn't 2162 01:45:48,120 --> 01:45:49,680 pregnant, but obviously Liana was. 2163 01:45:50,600 --> 01:45:52,760 Santa also did run away from her marriage to Tyrion as we 2164 01:45:52,760 --> 01:45:55,720 mentioned earlier. He's also a little bit of some 2165 01:45:55,720 --> 01:45:58,120 of those vibes are here too. Another heavy drinker and 2166 01:45:58,120 --> 01:46:01,200 womanizer, which is Tyrion. Now he wasn't as abusive to her 2167 01:46:01,200 --> 01:46:04,440 as as Harry the Air is not unlikely to be, but maybe she 2168 01:46:04,440 --> 01:46:06,000 won't actually end up marrying Harry the Air. 2169 01:46:06,400 --> 01:46:08,200 Either way, the parallels to Robert exist. 2170 01:46:08,560 --> 01:46:11,160 So that makes the Liana parallels all the stronger. 2171 01:46:11,360 --> 01:46:14,320 Now Santa also escaped Tyrion by going to the Eerie, which is 2172 01:46:14,320 --> 01:46:16,400 probably where Robert and Liana met. 2173 01:46:16,640 --> 01:46:20,720 And yeah, likewise how Santa ran off with ran away from a 2174 01:46:20,720 --> 01:46:23,440 marriage to Joffrey or Tyrion, really. 2175 01:46:23,440 --> 01:46:27,720 Tyrion, in this case, probably ran away from a bad marriage to 2176 01:46:27,760 --> 01:46:31,080 someone who was worse because, yeah, I mean, who thinks 2177 01:46:31,080 --> 01:46:32,960 Littlefinger is less bad than Tyrion? 2178 01:46:32,960 --> 01:46:35,400 Not me. I think Littlefinger's way worse 2179 01:46:35,400 --> 01:46:37,480 than Tyrion. Tyrion's, yeah, he's he's not so 2180 01:46:37,480 --> 01:46:39,000 bad. Littlefinger is for sure. 2181 01:46:39,000 --> 01:46:42,880 So, yeah, worse. Now, here's another. 2182 01:46:42,880 --> 01:46:45,720 Here's a kind of a humorous aside, which is that Tywin 2183 01:46:45,720 --> 01:46:48,720 wanted Cersei to marry Rhaegar. Cersei wanted to marry Rhaegar 2184 01:46:48,720 --> 01:46:51,960 too. Liana wanted Rhaegar over Robert 2185 01:46:51,960 --> 01:46:54,840 too. So Robert was just second fiddle 2186 01:46:54,840 --> 01:46:56,600 to Rhaegar in a number of these situations. 2187 01:46:57,160 --> 01:47:00,520 But again, he killed him. So yeah, it kind of he kind of 2188 01:47:00,520 --> 01:47:02,440 had the last laugh, even though he didn't think it was funny. 2189 01:47:02,960 --> 01:47:04,280 And Robert, of course, doesn't even know this. 2190 01:47:04,280 --> 01:47:06,640 He doesn't know that Cersei wanted to marry Rhaegar. 2191 01:47:06,640 --> 01:47:09,720 I don't think he ever knew that. He also didn't know that Lyanna 2192 01:47:09,920 --> 01:47:11,880 ran off. He still thinks he was abducted. 2193 01:47:12,040 --> 01:47:17,120 So yeah, although maybe deep down he subconscious was 2194 01:47:17,120 --> 01:47:19,720 needling him saying, you know, but Robert doesn't seem like the 2195 01:47:19,720 --> 01:47:21,360 kind of man to listen to his subconscious much. 2196 01:47:23,240 --> 01:47:25,880 OK, so let's talk about Aria. Aria is a great parallel here 2197 01:47:25,880 --> 01:47:27,600 too. Now, we've already had some of 2198 01:47:27,600 --> 01:47:28,920 the Aria parallels in this episode. 2199 01:47:28,920 --> 01:47:32,040 We've mentioned them throughout. Her appearance is a big one. 2200 01:47:32,040 --> 01:47:35,160 She looks like her. We gave the scene with Harwin 2201 01:47:35,440 --> 01:47:38,640 and escaping on horseback. Now Aria is in part who she is 2202 01:47:38,640 --> 01:47:41,720 though, because she reminds Ned so much of Liana. 2203 01:47:41,720 --> 01:47:45,520 So Ned has all this angst and, and hard feelings and, and, and 2204 01:47:45,720 --> 01:47:50,400 guilt and sadness over Liana, which leads him to treat Arya 2205 01:47:50,520 --> 01:47:52,880 maybe a little differently because of all that. 2206 01:47:52,920 --> 01:47:58,160 Like, for example, Liana was not allowed to carry a sword around. 2207 01:47:58,160 --> 01:48:00,760 Ricard wouldn't allow it. He had this whole, yeah, I want 2208 01:48:00,760 --> 01:48:02,960 you to be a proper lady 'cause I'm going to marry you to the 2209 01:48:02,960 --> 01:48:05,440 South or something like that. That might have been his, his 2210 01:48:05,440 --> 01:48:07,400 angle. Either way, she wasn't allowed 2211 01:48:07,400 --> 01:48:11,280 to carry a sword. Arya wasn't given a sword by 2212 01:48:11,280 --> 01:48:15,480 Ned, but when he when she got one needle, she was allowed to 2213 01:48:15,480 --> 01:48:17,480 keep it. You know, Ned considered. 2214 01:48:17,480 --> 01:48:20,520 It was like, well, I'm going to do the opposite with my father 2215 01:48:20,520 --> 01:48:22,400 because it didn't do it didn't go so well. 2216 01:48:22,400 --> 01:48:25,480 So my father said no sword. I'm going to say sword, yes, 2217 01:48:25,720 --> 01:48:27,920 let's do the opposite of that. They also kind of both give up 2218 01:48:27,920 --> 01:48:30,440 their wolf in the Riverland, so to speak, right? 2219 01:48:30,440 --> 01:48:34,160 Like Lyanna abandoned, you know, marries into a new family, 2220 01:48:34,440 --> 01:48:37,880 becomes less of a wolf and then becomes married to the dragon 2221 01:48:38,560 --> 01:48:42,760 and leaves her family, you know, runs away from her family, kind 2222 01:48:42,760 --> 01:48:44,800 of gives up on her, her starkness to A to in a sense. 2223 01:48:44,800 --> 01:48:46,440 I mean, she still got the personality obviously. 2224 01:48:46,840 --> 01:48:49,840 And Arya literally gives up. Nymeria in the Riverland has to 2225 01:48:49,840 --> 01:48:53,160 part with her in there for that reason. 2226 01:48:53,680 --> 01:48:56,920 And Arya runs away, right? She she runs away also like 2227 01:48:56,920 --> 01:48:58,600 Leona, she runs away several times. 2228 01:48:58,600 --> 01:49:00,800 Really. She runs away more times than I 2229 01:49:00,800 --> 01:49:02,880 can count. She runs away near Derry. 2230 01:49:03,160 --> 01:49:05,920 She runs away in this event with with Nymeria. 2231 01:49:05,920 --> 01:49:09,560 She runs away from Harrenhal. She runs away from Sandor. 2232 01:49:09,560 --> 01:49:12,120 Yeah, she does a lot of running away, but in this case she runs 2233 01:49:12,120 --> 01:49:14,760 away from Harrenhal. It's this includes running away 2234 01:49:14,760 --> 01:49:17,440 from her fray betrothal, which Leona was running away from her 2235 01:49:17,440 --> 01:49:20,120 betrothal too. But to be fair, again, as I said 2236 01:49:20,120 --> 01:49:22,720 before, Arya, this isn't a motivator for her. 2237 01:49:22,720 --> 01:49:25,440 She's running for other reasons. She doesn't really think about 2238 01:49:25,560 --> 01:49:28,720 her marriage that much, but she still ran away from it. 2239 01:49:28,840 --> 01:49:30,320 It's still a thing. It's still technically true. 2240 01:49:30,560 --> 01:49:33,480 Other non Stark parallels. Yeah, we we talked about Rob's 2241 01:49:33,480 --> 01:49:35,400 parallels wrapped up with Leon earlier. 2242 01:49:35,400 --> 01:49:38,200 Obviously, John, there's many blatant connections there that 2243 01:49:38,240 --> 01:49:39,480 probably do a whole episode of that. 2244 01:49:39,560 --> 01:49:42,720 And here we go with some non stark parallels. 2245 01:49:42,720 --> 01:49:44,680 Alice Karstark. We mentioned her briefly, but 2246 01:49:44,680 --> 01:49:46,320 let's let's go through the details a little more clearly 2247 01:49:46,320 --> 01:49:48,040 here. She runs away from a forced 2248 01:49:48,040 --> 01:49:51,560 marriage to her Uncle Craigen, flees on alone on horseback 2249 01:49:51,560 --> 01:49:53,240 through the wilderness. Quite possibly. 2250 01:49:53,240 --> 01:49:58,960 Well, Liana did runs to the son of Rhaegar, though neither she 2251 01:49:58,960 --> 01:50:00,960 or John knows that. That's just a great thing for us 2252 01:50:00,960 --> 01:50:03,040 readers to go. Oh good one, George. 2253 01:50:04,040 --> 01:50:06,800 John's solution is the same one that Liana had. 2254 01:50:07,400 --> 01:50:09,800 In order to avoid marriage to someone you don't want to marry, 2255 01:50:10,520 --> 01:50:13,600 marry someone else first. Cut off that marriage option by 2256 01:50:13,600 --> 01:50:16,520 being married already, which is what happened here. 2257 01:50:16,800 --> 01:50:21,200 She marries Sigourn Magnar Fenn so that there can be no marriage 2258 01:50:21,200 --> 01:50:23,400 to Kragen. Very simple. 2259 01:50:23,400 --> 01:50:26,720 Yep, remove the marriage option by taking her out of the 2260 01:50:27,360 --> 01:50:30,840 unmarried category. Technically the Fenn is little 2261 01:50:30,840 --> 01:50:33,600 bit regarish. She's the new king of the Fens 2262 01:50:33,600 --> 01:50:36,040 or the new Magnar. You know, Magnar, not king but 2263 01:50:36,040 --> 01:50:39,640 similar term, just taken the place of his father. 2264 01:50:39,640 --> 01:50:42,560 Killed in a flaming battle. Killed in a big battle at the 2265 01:50:42,560 --> 01:50:43,160 wall. Yeah. 2266 01:50:43,160 --> 01:50:44,760 So a little bit of vibes there too. 2267 01:50:45,440 --> 01:50:50,880 And we know for sure that it was snowing on during Allison 2268 01:50:50,880 --> 01:50:52,880 Sagorne's wedding. And remember, this was over. 2269 01:50:52,920 --> 01:50:54,960 This was overseen by Melisandre of all people. 2270 01:50:54,960 --> 01:50:58,800 So we have another like kind of unusual officiant of the wedding 2271 01:50:58,800 --> 01:51:00,560 too. As another parallel, assuming 2272 01:51:00,560 --> 01:51:04,520 the the guy, the Isle of faces were the officiant, the Hart 2273 01:51:04,520 --> 01:51:07,240 trees there were the efficiency of of Ray Garniana's wedding. 2274 01:51:07,240 --> 01:51:09,200 So we also have like a it's not the seven. 2275 01:51:09,560 --> 01:51:12,920 It's not any Valyrian stuff, it's nothing standard. 2276 01:51:12,920 --> 01:51:15,360 It's either Melisandre or the trees. 2277 01:51:16,200 --> 01:51:21,280 So yeah, Nina suggests that as it was definitely snowing for 2278 01:51:21,280 --> 01:51:23,080 the wedding of Alice and Sigourne. 2279 01:51:23,520 --> 01:51:28,960 Winter came on suddenly, as we outlined after the fall spring. 2280 01:51:29,320 --> 01:51:31,640 So maybe it was snowing at the Isle of Faces when they got 2281 01:51:31,640 --> 01:51:33,120 married to. That would be a nice little 2282 01:51:33,120 --> 01:51:37,280 parallel for George to draw. And Alice's uncle Kragen shows 2283 01:51:37,280 --> 01:51:41,800 up at the wall demanding to have her, like demanding John die or 2284 01:51:41,800 --> 01:51:43,480 whatever. He just he shows up just yelling 2285 01:51:43,480 --> 01:51:46,440 about it kind of being a dummy, kind of start trying to pick a 2286 01:51:46,440 --> 01:51:50,240 fight with someone that's way more powerful than him. 2287 01:51:50,240 --> 01:51:52,760 And Brandon shows up with his six men and just threatens the 2288 01:51:52,760 --> 01:51:55,080 entire court. It's kind of what Kragen does. 2289 01:51:55,080 --> 01:51:58,480 He shows up with his five or six guys and tries to threaten the 2290 01:51:58,480 --> 01:52:02,760 entire night's watch. Like, not not bright, but a very 2291 01:52:02,760 --> 01:52:06,280 strong parallel is the point. It's this guy's so angry about 2292 01:52:06,280 --> 01:52:09,600 having what he believes is his taken away that he's willing to 2293 01:52:09,600 --> 01:52:13,840 be very stupid about it. Now, of course, let's not forget 2294 01:52:13,840 --> 01:52:17,600 the parallel to Alice Karstark that overwhelms all these, which 2295 01:52:17,600 --> 01:52:21,200 is that Melisandre thought she was Aria when he saw, when she 2296 01:52:21,200 --> 01:52:23,920 saw her in her visions, a girl in Gray on a dying horse. 2297 01:52:24,360 --> 01:52:27,720 And that's is the number one parallel to Leon in terms of 2298 01:52:27,720 --> 01:52:30,240 looks. Now John thinks of her as 2299 01:52:30,240 --> 01:52:34,960 looking like Aria too, which means she probably looks like 2300 01:52:34,960 --> 01:52:37,600 Liana. Because if if someone looks like 2301 01:52:37,600 --> 01:52:39,680 Arya who looks like Liana, then they look they probably look 2302 01:52:39,680 --> 01:52:42,520 like Liana too. So John sees Alice Karstark as 2303 01:52:42,520 --> 01:52:45,400 reminded of Arya. And we're supposed to, I think, 2304 01:52:45,400 --> 01:52:47,600 think of what Liana looked like who would have been a similar 2305 01:52:47,600 --> 01:52:50,760 age, roughly the same age, roughly the same, you know, 15 2306 01:52:50,760 --> 01:52:54,220 ish, something like that. Long face, brown hair, quote UN 2307 01:52:54,220 --> 01:52:55,560 quote. Skinny and cultish. 2308 01:52:56,440 --> 01:52:58,480 Cultish. A reference to horses. 2309 01:52:58,480 --> 01:53:00,880 Hello. I mean, George loves this thing. 2310 01:53:01,240 --> 01:53:02,480 He loves doing it. It's great. 2311 01:53:02,480 --> 01:53:05,160 I love it. Yeah, that might be even 2312 01:53:05,160 --> 01:53:08,040 stronger than some of the Aria Liana stuff, this Alice stuff. 2313 01:53:08,040 --> 01:53:10,720 But because it's more direct, it's an actual marriage. 2314 01:53:11,080 --> 01:53:13,720 But it just goes to show that George puts it everywhere. 2315 01:53:13,720 --> 01:53:16,960 The little bits of Liana are all over the story, everywhere. 2316 01:53:16,960 --> 01:53:19,280 And then mostly associated with the Starks, but definitely not 2317 01:53:19,280 --> 01:53:21,240 entirely. Because here's one that's not 2318 01:53:21,680 --> 01:53:26,160 Arianne Martel. Aryan, of course, also worried 2319 01:53:26,160 --> 01:53:28,120 about being forced into a marriage against her will by her 2320 01:53:28,120 --> 01:53:30,120 father. There's also a lot of missing 2321 01:53:30,120 --> 01:53:32,160 information here. Aryan was under the wrong 2322 01:53:32,160 --> 01:53:35,160 impression about a lot of what her father's intentions were. 2323 01:53:36,000 --> 01:53:39,640 Perhaps some of that is true from Lyanna's perspective as to 2324 01:53:39,640 --> 01:53:41,200 what Rhaegar's plans really were. 2325 01:53:41,200 --> 01:53:43,640 She maybe didn't fully grasp all this prophecy stuff. 2326 01:53:44,040 --> 01:53:46,480 Now for Aryan, she's mistaken because her father doesn't 2327 01:53:46,480 --> 01:53:48,680 actually want her to marry those older men she was. 2328 01:53:48,840 --> 01:53:52,120 He was expecting her to reject those marriages and counting. 2329 01:53:52,120 --> 01:53:54,880 He was counting on that, but now he's she's worried about a 2330 01:53:54,880 --> 01:53:56,440 different thing. She's worried about a marriage, 2331 01:53:56,440 --> 01:53:59,680 Not her own marriage, but her brother marrying Daenerys. 2332 01:53:59,680 --> 01:54:02,200 She's worried about this King Clinton thing happening, which 2333 01:54:02,200 --> 01:54:04,440 obviously that's not going to happen because Quentin's quite 2334 01:54:04,440 --> 01:54:08,880 dead, but she isn't dumb to consider that possibility or to 2335 01:54:08,880 --> 01:54:12,080 wonder about it. Just being wrong doesn't mean 2336 01:54:12,080 --> 01:54:14,160 being stupid. But the point is the parallel 2337 01:54:14,160 --> 01:54:16,440 here. Like Liana Aryan may think she's 2338 01:54:16,440 --> 01:54:20,640 stuck in sort of a ticking time bomb stands to the hourglass 2339 01:54:20,640 --> 01:54:25,120 rapidly ending situation with this marriage that's going to 2340 01:54:25,120 --> 01:54:27,680 happen any day now. She doesn't know exactly when, 2341 01:54:27,680 --> 01:54:30,240 but uh oh, on any day now, I could be forced to marry some 2342 01:54:30,240 --> 01:54:32,520 old man. And that's the only thing she 2343 01:54:32,520 --> 01:54:35,360 can do is run away and marry someone else first. 2344 01:54:36,080 --> 01:54:40,080 That might happen. She might marry Rhaegar's son, 2345 01:54:40,360 --> 01:54:44,000 quote UN quote, Fagon, right? If she's the one to marry Fagon, 2346 01:54:44,000 --> 01:54:45,840 that's going to be such another parallel. 2347 01:54:45,840 --> 01:54:49,360 And that will also keep her from having to kneel to Quentin and 2348 01:54:49,360 --> 01:54:55,600 to marry some old man. So that is very Liana and even, 2349 01:54:55,600 --> 01:54:57,640 you know, even being stuck in the tower afterwards, like she's 2350 01:54:57,640 --> 01:55:01,280 the Princess in the tower, like Liana is in the Tower of Joy. 2351 01:55:03,040 --> 01:55:04,960 Strong parallel, right? That's really good. 2352 01:55:05,120 --> 01:55:08,680 Aryan Martel and beyond A Song of Ice and Fire, again, as I 2353 01:55:08,680 --> 01:55:11,360 said at the beginning, literature and real world 2354 01:55:11,360 --> 01:55:14,360 history, it's absolutely full of examples of women fleeing 2355 01:55:14,360 --> 01:55:18,200 unwanted betrothals. But even the worst real life 2356 01:55:18,200 --> 01:55:20,480 examples rarely lead to civil war. 2357 01:55:21,840 --> 01:55:26,400 But sometimes they do. A lot of times those stories 2358 01:55:26,400 --> 01:55:29,080 actually do have happy endings. You know, the woman indeed 2359 01:55:29,080 --> 01:55:32,040 escapes and is in a much better situation. 2360 01:55:32,240 --> 01:55:35,160 Sometimes it's in a dramatically better situation. 2361 01:55:35,160 --> 01:55:37,360 It's the one they wanted instead of the one they dreaded. 2362 01:55:37,880 --> 01:55:41,240 But of course, with so many examples, there's so many 2363 01:55:41,240 --> 01:55:43,640 possibilities here. Sometimes the real life versions 2364 01:55:43,640 --> 01:55:46,120 are somewhere in between, right? Generally speaking, as is our 2365 01:55:46,120 --> 01:55:49,000 want. Why not give a real life 2366 01:55:49,000 --> 01:55:51,360 example? Because I love to do that. 2367 01:55:51,360 --> 01:55:55,960 And this is history of Westeros. Emphasis on the word history as 2368 01:55:55,960 --> 01:55:58,400 much as there is emphasis on the word Westeros. 2369 01:55:58,400 --> 01:56:00,520 We like to turn to real history every once in a while. 2370 01:56:00,800 --> 01:56:06,080 And in this case we have Onoria, the sister of Roman Emperor 2371 01:56:06,080 --> 01:56:09,360 Valentinian. He ordered her to marry a 2372 01:56:09,360 --> 01:56:12,120 specific Roman senator. She didn't want to do that. 2373 01:56:12,120 --> 01:56:16,080 She was unhappy about it. This was around 450AD, which 2374 01:56:16,080 --> 01:56:18,360 means the near the end of the antiquity period. 2375 01:56:18,360 --> 01:56:22,960 Remember the Middle Ages began in 500 all the way to 1500. 2376 01:56:22,960 --> 01:56:25,320 So that's again Middle Ages, medieval period, same thing. 2377 01:56:25,960 --> 01:56:31,960 So this is just before that Honoria sent her engagement ring 2378 01:56:32,280 --> 01:56:35,560 or an engagement ring and a letter to a man that she 2379 01:56:35,560 --> 01:56:38,720 preferred over this Roman senator, a man she wanted to 2380 01:56:38,720 --> 01:56:40,800 marry instead. Or at least that's how he 2381 01:56:40,800 --> 01:56:44,400 interpreted. He interpreted as if I get her 2382 01:56:44,400 --> 01:56:47,440 and rescue her from the situation, she will marry me. 2383 01:56:47,720 --> 01:56:52,200 And then prophet. He saw the prophet here, he 2384 01:56:52,200 --> 01:56:57,240 decided he would claim her hand and for her gallery he requested 2385 01:56:57,520 --> 01:57:02,440 nothing too big, just the Western Roman Empire. 2386 01:57:03,640 --> 01:57:08,680 Who is this man that Anoria sent her engagement ring 2 that she 2387 01:57:08,680 --> 01:57:10,480 preferred over this Roman senator? 2388 01:57:10,680 --> 01:57:13,920 He's very famous. I guarantee every single one of 2389 01:57:13,920 --> 01:57:15,960 you has heard of this guy. In fact, I can just say part of 2390 01:57:15,960 --> 01:57:17,120 his name and you'll know who I mean. 2391 01:57:17,120 --> 01:57:21,040 I can just say the Hun and you'll be like Attila. 2392 01:57:21,320 --> 01:57:24,960 And I'll be like, yes, Attila the Hun is who we're talking 2393 01:57:24,960 --> 01:57:28,000 about here. Anoria sent this ring to Attila 2394 01:57:28,000 --> 01:57:29,680 the Hun and said Get Me Out of this. 2395 01:57:29,680 --> 01:57:32,400 And he, well, the rest is history. 2396 01:57:32,640 --> 01:57:35,640 He did have a lot of success against the Roman Empire, but he 2397 01:57:35,640 --> 01:57:37,920 was killed in battle, fighting some of this stuff. 2398 01:57:37,920 --> 01:57:41,520 So it didn't happen. But it makes for a great story, 2399 01:57:41,520 --> 01:57:44,200 a great parallel. I want to hear from you all 2400 01:57:44,200 --> 01:57:46,560 specifically on this one. And we do a lot of topics here 2401 01:57:46,560 --> 01:57:49,560 at History of Westeros. So we go all over the place. 2402 01:57:49,560 --> 01:57:53,440 We do real history, we do comparisons, we do deep dives, 2403 01:57:53,440 --> 01:57:57,920 we do niche topics. This is more central of a 2404 01:57:57,920 --> 01:58:00,080 mystery and a topic than a lot of our ones are. 2405 01:58:00,080 --> 01:58:02,880 So I really value y'all's opinions more on things like 2406 01:58:02,880 --> 01:58:05,160 this. I want to hear your Liana 2407 01:58:05,160 --> 01:58:09,120 Rhaegar parallels, echoes, things you've seen. 2408 01:58:09,400 --> 01:58:12,360 Whether you have thoughts on it being an abduction or an 2409 01:58:12,360 --> 01:58:16,600 elopement or any of the details that are lost, there's so many 2410 01:58:16,600 --> 01:58:22,360 things that make up this mystery that we don't know that there's. 2411 01:58:22,360 --> 01:58:24,880 So that just gives a lot of things for us to each have 2412 01:58:24,880 --> 01:58:28,000 opinions on and weigh in on and and believe or be open to. 2413 01:58:28,120 --> 01:58:29,760 So we'd love to hear that from you all. 2414 01:58:30,080 --> 01:58:36,680 Let us know in Discord, Facebook on Blue Sky or join our join us 2415 01:58:36,680 --> 01:58:39,760 on Patreon, send us messages, send us emails wherever you want 2416 01:58:39,760 --> 01:58:40,760 to tell us. We'd love to hear it. 2417 01:58:40,880 --> 01:58:43,640 Yep, let's talk about our trivia question here. 2418 01:58:43,640 --> 01:58:49,120 We had Robert naming a beautiful war galley after Liana and the 2419 01:58:49,120 --> 01:58:50,080 name of it? Pretty simple. 2420 01:58:50,880 --> 01:58:54,160 Lady Liana, just like that. No fancy name, no sneaky thing, 2421 01:58:54,160 --> 01:58:57,120 just Lady Liana. Funny story about this war 2422 01:58:57,120 --> 01:58:59,360 galley though. It's part of the Royal Fleet. 2423 01:59:00,200 --> 01:59:03,680 You would think that the royal fleet of the Baratheons is toast 2424 01:59:03,680 --> 01:59:05,240 by now, right? Didn't didn't most of it get 2425 01:59:05,240 --> 01:59:07,800 destroyed in the Battle of the Blackwater? 2426 01:59:08,160 --> 01:59:12,560 Yeah, it did. But ironically though Liana and 2427 01:59:12,560 --> 01:59:15,680 her tragic end her the ship named after her is a survivor 2428 01:59:15,920 --> 01:59:18,280 because this ship was not at the Battle of the Blackwater. 2429 01:59:18,280 --> 01:59:21,360 It was one of the three ships that Tyrion sent to Dorne to 2430 01:59:21,400 --> 01:59:24,240 escort Marcella. Of course, you said Marcella, 2431 01:59:24,560 --> 01:59:26,640 the beautiful Princess with the beautiful ship, right? 2432 01:59:27,880 --> 01:59:29,680 So it wasn't there for the Blackwater. 2433 01:59:29,680 --> 01:59:31,480 So it's fine. It made it back to King's 2434 01:59:31,480 --> 01:59:32,640 Landing. It's just chilling there. 2435 01:59:32,640 --> 01:59:35,440 And it wasn't stolen by Oran Waters. 2436 01:59:35,440 --> 01:59:39,000 Oran Waters explicitly stole the new warships only, only the 10 2437 01:59:39,000 --> 01:59:42,600 new dromans. So Lady Leon is one of the very 2438 01:59:42,600 --> 01:59:47,800 few ships that's like survived all the books to this point. 2439 01:59:47,960 --> 01:59:50,960 Despite the battles and the burnings and the betrayals, it's 2440 01:59:50,960 --> 01:59:53,680 still there. So it might even still be around 2441 01:59:53,680 --> 01:59:58,520 when Daenerys comes to King's Landing or someone else comes to 2442 01:59:58,520 --> 02:00:00,880 King's Landing. Maybe Arianne, maybe Fagon, who 2443 02:00:00,880 --> 02:00:01,880 knows. That would be wild. 2444 02:00:02,400 --> 02:00:06,160 If Young Griff was like, hey, that's that child was named 2445 02:00:06,160 --> 02:00:09,280 after that ship was named after my father's second wife. 2446 02:00:09,440 --> 02:00:11,160 What would he think? What would a Young Griff think 2447 02:00:11,160 --> 02:00:13,200 of? Liana, that's another character 2448 02:00:13,200 --> 02:00:15,120 I haven't considered at all what his opinion might be. 2449 02:00:15,240 --> 02:00:19,960 So yeah, again, this just goes to show the depth of this topic 2450 02:00:20,120 --> 02:00:22,760 and the tendrils in which it affects the story. 2451 02:00:22,760 --> 02:00:25,600 So many people, so many impacts, so many characters, so many plot 2452 02:00:25,600 --> 02:00:26,840 lines. Gotta love it. 2453 02:00:26,840 --> 02:00:28,520 Great example of George. It is best. 2454 02:00:28,640 --> 02:00:30,440 So I was right at the beginning of the episode. 2455 02:00:30,440 --> 02:00:35,760 This is the 9th episode of the Topics Moot 2024. 2456 02:00:36,360 --> 02:00:39,240 The Black Dinner, the influence on the Red Wedding, the 2457 02:00:39,240 --> 02:00:42,560 inspiration for the Red Wedding is going to be #10 the Shadow by 2458 02:00:42,560 --> 02:00:44,720 Ash Eye. And you know, the inverse of Ash 2459 02:00:44,720 --> 02:00:47,400 Eye by the Shadow is the number 11. 2460 02:00:47,560 --> 02:00:51,640 And the third episode in the Nymeria series, which we haven't 2461 02:00:51,640 --> 02:00:55,760 had an installment in I think 5 or 6 years, will be the final 2462 02:00:55,760 --> 02:00:58,920 episode of 2024. So look out for those. 2463 02:00:59,720 --> 02:01:02,840 And we are so pleased and thankful that you listened to 2464 02:01:02,880 --> 02:01:05,520 our episode today and will continue listening to us. 2465 02:01:06,200 --> 02:01:08,960 We mentioned a few other episodes in the progress of 2466 02:01:09,080 --> 02:01:13,560 going through this one. We mentioned certainly various 2467 02:01:13,560 --> 02:01:17,560 episodes about prophecy, many faces or high recent Melisandre 2468 02:01:17,560 --> 02:01:19,400 episode. Our catalogue is huge. 2469 02:01:19,400 --> 02:01:21,560 We mentioned Benjin in That's what I was trying to remember. 2470 02:01:21,560 --> 02:01:23,520 Where did we talk about that Benjin idea? 2471 02:01:23,520 --> 02:01:26,560 I don't recall because we don't have a dedicated Benjin episode. 2472 02:01:26,720 --> 02:01:28,920 We do have a Cold Hands episode, but I don't think we, I don't 2473 02:01:28,920 --> 02:01:31,000 know if it came up there. Maybe there, but yeah. 2474 02:01:31,600 --> 02:01:34,080 I don't recall. Yeah, we've we've got like we've 2475 02:01:34,080 --> 02:01:37,000 made like 400 episodes in our career here, so it's pretty hard 2476 02:01:37,000 --> 02:01:39,040 to keep track of some of these these days. 2477 02:01:39,560 --> 02:01:41,440 Anyway, that's something else y'all can help us out with. 2478 02:01:41,440 --> 02:01:45,040 If you know, other episodes where we mentioned Rhaegar and 2479 02:01:45,040 --> 02:01:47,480 Liana stuff or Robert's Rebellion stuff, we certainly 2480 02:01:47,480 --> 02:01:49,520 have a battle to try it in episode and some of these 2481 02:01:49,520 --> 02:01:51,440 others. That's our recommendations. 2482 02:01:51,680 --> 02:01:54,400 Thanks very much to Nina for her valuable notes. 2483 02:01:54,400 --> 02:01:56,920 She she put me, like I said, put me on some really interesting 2484 02:01:57,240 --> 02:01:59,280 subtopics here and some really great insights. 2485 02:01:59,920 --> 02:02:03,480 Her interest in this topic really fueled a lot of the 2486 02:02:03,480 --> 02:02:06,760 writing here. Thanks as well to Joey Townsend, 2487 02:02:06,760 --> 02:02:10,000 Jesse Koval, and Bran the Builder AKA Bran Winslow. 2488 02:02:10,000 --> 02:02:13,960 He made our fire and blood slash House of the Dragon intro. 2489 02:02:14,480 --> 02:02:17,280 Joey and Jesse are responsible for our original history of 2490 02:02:17,280 --> 02:02:20,360 Westeros music. Thanks to Michael Klarfeld for 2491 02:02:20,360 --> 02:02:23,960 the map you see behind me. You can go to claredox.de to 2492 02:02:23,960 --> 02:02:26,480 order the files yourself and print the maps out. 2493 02:02:26,760 --> 02:02:33,840 All of his beautiful maps are available at KLARADO x.de, and 2494 02:02:33,840 --> 02:02:37,160 we hope to see your pictures of those maps in our social media. 2495 02:02:37,160 --> 02:02:40,480 If you do order them and post them, we'd love to see them 2496 02:02:40,480 --> 02:02:43,120 shared around. So do that for us. 2497 02:02:43,120 --> 02:02:48,560 Do that for Michael. And until next time Valeri read 2498 02:02:48,560 --> 02:02:49,000 us.