1
00:00:48,410 --> 00:00:51,530
How often do you think about the
Roman Empire? 

2
00:00:51,770 --> 00:00:54,970
Was a fun question that went 
viral recently, but in this 

3
00:00:54,970 --> 00:00:58,290
episode, we're concerned more 
with how often George R Martin 

4
00:00:58,330 --> 00:01:00,850
thought about Rome when writing 
A Song of Ice and Fire. 

5
00:01:01,130 --> 00:01:04,890
And not just the Empire, the 
Republic, the Kingdom. 

6
00:01:05,530 --> 00:01:09,160
What came after the various TV 
shows about Rome? 

7
00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:10,480
Not all of them, but some of 
them. 

8
00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:14,320
To be fair, it's arguably two 
Americans and Europeans. 

9
00:01:14,320 --> 00:01:17,840
Many of us anyway, the most 
influential historical nation of

10
00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:21,160
all time, Rome's history is one 
of the most popular forms of 

11
00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:24,280
history. 
Latin is extremely prominent in 

12
00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:25,600
English and several other 
languages. 

13
00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:29,320
I mean, I probably just used 
several Latin words just now in 

14
00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:31,880
those preceding sentences and 
didn't even realize it. 

15
00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:35,880
History says Rome was founded in
753 BC. 

16
00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:39,960
Legends says it was by the twin 
sons of Mars, Romulus and Remus,

17
00:01:39,960 --> 00:01:42,680
who were set in adrift in a 
basket, placed in a river, only 

18
00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:47,280
to be rescued by a she wolf and 
then raised by a shepherd. 

19
00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:50,880
Surely not the true story, but 
it's entertaining and very 

20
00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:53,800
popular and probably contains 
some grains of truth. 

21
00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:58,520
And over 3000 years later Rome 
still exists and people are 

22
00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:00,880
still telling the story. 
Like me just now. 

23
00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:04,080
I just told it to be sure George
knows that story as well. 

24
00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:08,240
And so many other stories about 
Rome, some of them made-up, some

25
00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:11,640
of them historical. 
And he too lives in a society 

26
00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:16,800
like we do with Caesar salads 
and the Roman calendar and HB OS

27
00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:19,880
first foray into mega budget 
world building shows. 

28
00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:22,960
George liked that show, the 
first season more than the 2nd, 

29
00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:25,240
and he loved I, Claudius even 
more. 

30
00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:27,800
And over the years he's pointed 
out some Roman influence 

31
00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:29,920
directly in interviews for his 
own writing. 

32
00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:33,320
Well, some other Roman 
influences in his writing are 

33
00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:35,760
plain enough to just be seen 
without him telling us it's 

34
00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:37,320
there. 
He might not even be aware. 

35
00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:40,360
It's Roman influence. 
Sometimes he is, you know, 

36
00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:43,840
creative genius and things just 
come from his mind. 

37
00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:46,000
Sometimes he doesn't always stop
to think about where they came 

38
00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:49,120
from. 
And that's the point of 

39
00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:51,920
subconscious influence, right? 
When something is so prominent, 

40
00:02:51,920 --> 00:02:55,640
so overwhelming, like Roman 
culture's influence on us, we 

41
00:02:55,640 --> 00:02:58,440
can't always pick out where it 
all comes from and what's what. 

42
00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:01,560
And yeah, from little things 
like the use of words like 

43
00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:04,520
legion and magister. 
See, those ones I do know are 

44
00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:08,240
Latin to big things like the 
Wall and Valyria to one of the 

45
00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:14,520
most famous assassinations of 
all time at 2 Jon Snow, or at 2 

46
00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:17,480
black brothers that stabbed him.
Bow and marsh, bow and marsh. 

47
00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:20,960
But we have all that and more on
this episode of History of 

48
00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:24,800
Westeros podcast. 
Hello and welcome everybody. 

49
00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:27,080
We are back. 
It's our usual time, 3:00 

50
00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:30,400
Eastern on YouTube, doing our 
live streams almost every 

51
00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:32,880
Sunday. 
Every video you can find 

52
00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:35,960
afterwards, edited on Spotify. 
It'll still be on YouTube, of 

53
00:03:35,960 --> 00:03:39,560
course, and the audio only 
version is available everywhere.

54
00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:43,440
You can listen to a podcast and 
it's ad free if you listen on 

55
00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:46,480
Patreon. 
Sean, you've been busy lately 

56
00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:50,640
with your it's it's been Oscar 
season and that's a time for you

57
00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:52,760
to to shine, huh? 
Yeah, I'm bubbling with thoughts

58
00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:54,520
right now, and I'm happy to talk
about that. 

59
00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:57,760
But real quick, I want to add to
your little intro saying that, 

60
00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:00,800
you know, the idea that someone 
might think about the Roman 

61
00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:04,800
Empire every day, it's 1000 year
span of time. 

62
00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:09,240
It's like saying I think about 
the 1900s every day. 

63
00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:11,120
Well yeah, it's like part of our
life. 

64
00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:13,200
We live in it every day, and 
that's only 100 years. 

65
00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:16,360
Right. 
And additionally, the Roman 

66
00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:20,160
Empire, it it's not just like 
the Roman Empire was England and

67
00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:24,320
France and Germany and Italy and
Turkey and Saudi Arabia and 

68
00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:25,200
Egypt. 
You know what I mean? 

69
00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:26,920
Like. 
Palestine and yeah. 

70
00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:29,080
And Persia. 
Yeah, it's just crazy. 

71
00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:32,880
Yeah, all that far over. 
So it it just bled into so much 

72
00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:37,360
of of human culture for so long,
it's hard to think about almost 

73
00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:39,920
anything without that road 
leading back to Rome. 

74
00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:41,320
Hey, good one. 
Good one. 

75
00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:44,280
Yeah, yeah, it's it's Oscar 
season, and every year I do a 

76
00:04:44,280 --> 00:04:47,760
one minute preview of each of 
the Academy Award nominees or 

77
00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:51,920
Best Picture nominees anyway. 
And so in 10 minutes you can get

78
00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:55,280
a full synopsis of the top, 
ostensibly top movies of the 

79
00:04:55,280 --> 00:04:56,720
year. 
And I try to do it without 

80
00:04:56,720 --> 00:04:58,120
getting into, like, plot 
details. 

81
00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:00,600
I talk about, you know, the 
aesthetic and the stars, the 

82
00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:04,280
director or the genre, the tone,
you know, maybe recommendations 

83
00:05:04,280 --> 00:05:06,280
based on that movie or whatever.
But I want to give you a feel 

84
00:05:06,280 --> 00:05:08,400
for whether or not you might 
like the movie at all, but 

85
00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:11,080
without spoiling any plot stuff.
So check that out on YouTube. 

86
00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:13,360
Hard to get into the plot with 
only one minute anyway, but 

87
00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:14,640
yeah, Sean. 
I highly recommend Sean's 

88
00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:17,120
reviews Dancing Sean. 
That's your YouTube channel. 

89
00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:22,520
Check it out and enjoy his takes
on the best movies of last year.

90
00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:24,080
You know what else it is, by the
way? 

91
00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:26,440
In addition to Oscar season, 
Saint Patrick's Day. 

92
00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:29,000
And I think we both dressed up 
and didn't wear green. 

93
00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:32,840
But I'm drinking green at least.
There's no Saint Patrick's Day 

94
00:05:32,840 --> 00:05:37,800
in Westeros or in Rome. 
The Saint Patrick hadn't even 

95
00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:40,120
been born by the time the Roman 
Empire was. 

96
00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:44,280
Yeah, he he It's anachronistic 
to celebrate Saint Patrick's Day

97
00:05:44,280 --> 00:05:48,040
today, but I do want to give a 
shout out to our good friend 

98
00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:52,880
Nina, AKA Good Queen Allie, Good
Queen allie.tumblr.com is where 

99
00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:56,440
you can find her thoughts. 
Her blog and latest question she

100
00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:58,680
got is what do you see as the 
end game for Slaver's Bay? 

101
00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:01,160
Do you think Danny will return 
or will we just see the 

102
00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:04,080
beginnings of the Shave Pates 
takeover from Barristan's POV? 

103
00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:08,840
Yeah, it's a good question. 
It's a big question. 

104
00:06:08,840 --> 00:06:12,640
And Nina has weighed in on 
different parts of Slavery's 

105
00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:13,520
Bay. 
Throughout a lot of our 

106
00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:15,960
episodes, throughout Val 
Arboretas, there were a lot of 

107
00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:18,360
different things when this when 
the time when it's been 

108
00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:20,480
appropriate to speak on. 
But here you can get it all 

109
00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:23,040
concentrated in one place and 
that's a good thing to read. 

110
00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:26,360
Good Queen allie.tumblr.com. 
If you have questions for us, 

111
00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:29,360
you can send them to 
westeroshistory@gmail.com or you

112
00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:31,640
can just type them here in the 
chat if you're watching live. 

113
00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:35,080
Especially if you have a thought
on a Roman influence on A Song 

114
00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:37,760
of Ice and Fire that we missed 
'cause I'm sure there are some. 

115
00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:40,440
It's as I said in the intro, 
it's such a huge topic, there's 

116
00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:42,400
no way we caught it all. 
Some of them are going to be 

117
00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:44,360
debatable. 
So I'd love to hear your 

118
00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:47,960
thoughts on what you perceive as
an influence as Roman. 

119
00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:51,360
Maybe it isn't, but maybe it is.
I think that could be an entire 

120
00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:53,560
podcast. 
Oh, yeah, Things we might. 

121
00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:57,080
Yeah. 
Yeah, exactly. 

122
00:06:57,080 --> 00:07:00,640
So, yeah, not just one episode. 
Like a whole, like recurring. 

123
00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:02,240
Yeah, that's the whole point of 
the show. 

124
00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:04,080
Yeah. 
And of course, as usual, I'll 

125
00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:07,280
mention some episodes at the end
that relate to this one. 

126
00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:10,120
Things that we touch on will 
definitely relate to other 

127
00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:12,280
episodes we've done. 
Also at the end of this episode 

128
00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:16,840
will be the trivia answer. 
The question being what is 

129
00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:20,760
supposedly the most common first
name among the Ghiscari of 

130
00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:25,600
Slaver's Bay, which will be part
of one of our topics today. 

131
00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:29,360
Slaver's Bay has a lot of Roman 
influence, so that's why I 

132
00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:33,320
picked that one and the answer 
will be found during the episode

133
00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:35,440
and revealed at the end. 
Are there any bonus points for 

134
00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:37,680
knowing who the first person 
with that name is? 

135
00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:39,960
Yeah, I think there might be, 
but I don't know if we know that

136
00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:42,400
we know who the famous most 
first person is with that name. 

137
00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:47,720
But the actual first person? 
Yeah, why not start with Rome's 

138
00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:51,840
first story, one that actually 
comes even before Romulus and 

139
00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:53,560
Remus? 
Sean, why don't you kick us off 

140
00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:55,240
there? 
Yeah, there's, you know, a 

141
00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:59,520
fantastic mythological story, 
you know, about the origins of 

142
00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:02,280
Rome. 
And then there's a slightly less

143
00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:08,560
fantastic mythological story. 
The idea is it in in the wake 

144
00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:12,520
of, you know, again, you could 
get into all of Greece and the 

145
00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:16,240
Trojan wars and everything. 
But ostensibly Prince Aeneas 

146
00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:19,280
escaped Troy. 
Huge epic adventure he went 

147
00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:22,680
through, sailing around the 
Mediterranean and at some point 

148
00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:25,880
eventually lands in you know 
what we now know of as Italy, I 

149
00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:31,160
think by the the Tiber river and
a group of people who don't want

150
00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:33,880
to voyage run anymore. 
They want to settle, burn the 

151
00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:37,840
ships down so that they have to 
stay there, attempt to, they 

152
00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:40,760
don't burn them all down. 
But the idea is this is very 

153
00:08:40,919 --> 00:08:44,039
similar to Nymeria, right. 
And some of the details of this 

154
00:08:44,039 --> 00:08:46,400
story are are, you know, 
questioned about whether or not 

155
00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:48,200
they're true. 
A lot of it seems maybe to be 

156
00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:53,480
retrofit to set Roman, I don't 
know, propaganda, you know, to 

157
00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:56,520
teach lessons that they want to 
teach and attach its history to 

158
00:08:56,520 --> 00:08:59,320
something bigger, like, you 
know, Greek history and 

159
00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:02,080
everything but the ring. 
In some of these stories, the 

160
00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:05,120
ringleader, the people who set 
the ships on fire, was named 

161
00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:08,760
Roma, and she is ostensibly 
where Roma's named after. 

162
00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:12,800
But immediately, just the origin
story of Rome, you see some 

163
00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:16,640
parallels to some stories that 
George has in this world too. 

164
00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:18,840
Yeah, like Valyria of course, is
a big one. 

165
00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:21,240
And yeah, like you said, Nymeria
there. 

166
00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:23,080
Now The funny thing about 
Nymeria, this is where we get 

167
00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:24,600
into one of those, Well, what's 
really the pair? 

168
00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:26,960
What's really the influence here
because is that just the 

169
00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:29,880
Odyssey, a different version of 
the Odyssey given to Aeneas 

170
00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:32,040
instead? 
Well, the Odyssey predates this 

171
00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:34,120
story, but it comes from the 
same time. 

172
00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:37,280
It's the you know, Odysseus 
returning from the Trojan War. 

173
00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:39,920
So it's kind of a similar thing.
The problem with is the founding

174
00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:43,840
of Rome is dated around 7:50 and
the Trojan War is around 1100 or

175
00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:45,760
1200. 
So yeah, there is a lot of time 

176
00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:48,760
in between there, but it doesn't
matter because the the story is 

177
00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:50,840
what's influential. 
The truth of it isn't important.

178
00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:53,520
We don't care if that's true. 
It happened so long ago. 

179
00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:56,480
It's a neat story and and, well,
we're never going to know the 

180
00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:59,000
real story anyway. 
Some stories, especially ancient

181
00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:02,400
stories, even if later we 
discover some details about 

182
00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:05,600
them, aren't true, that doesn't 
stop the influence of those 

183
00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:08,880
stories had on culture and 
writing and history and George 

184
00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:11,280
Martin and everything else you. 
Know and one of the big things 

185
00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:13,440
you'll see throughout history 
and founding Miss is that, yes, 

186
00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:15,440
cultures try to connect 
themselves to other cultures, a 

187
00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:19,160
lot of times to seem older or 
grander, or to connect it to 

188
00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:22,040
their best ideas. 
Like one of the reasons the 

189
00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:24,960
Romans loved the story about 
being connected to Aeneas is it 

190
00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:27,160
connected them to greet gods. 
I mean, well, Aeneas was 

191
00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:29,160
descendant of these gods. 
That means we are too. 

192
00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:29,960
All right. 
Yay. 

193
00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:33,040
Now there's a lot of babies in 
baskets on the river story. 

194
00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:35,280
In terms of the Romulus and 
Remus story that's there's a lot

195
00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:37,280
of those Paris from the Trojan 
War. 

196
00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:39,080
It happened to him too 
supposedly. 

197
00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:42,640
There's just lots of those And 
Paris was suckled to health by a

198
00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:45,600
she bear just as we're told 
Romulus and Remus was suckled by

199
00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:49,600
a she wolf and then and hey 
Tormund giant Spain suckled by a

200
00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:51,520
she bear as well. 
So there you go. 

201
00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:55,560
That's a good circle, square, 
complete whatever. 

202
00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:58,760
So it's not that it's not a 
Roman story, it's just a story 

203
00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:00,840
that has appeared in a lot of 
different traditions. 

204
00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:03,600
But the Roman version is 
particularly popular because 

205
00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:05,640
Rome is popular. 
So even though it's not an 

206
00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:08,240
original Roman story, it might 
be the first one George heard 

207
00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:09,920
out of all these versions, 
right? 

208
00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:11,560
It might be the one that 
impacted him the most. 

209
00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:13,640
So that's a little thing we were
we have to weigh as well. 

210
00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:16,400
One might not be the original, 
but it might be the one that got

211
00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:19,680
heard first. 
And Nina points out the same 

212
00:11:19,680 --> 00:11:22,040
thing. 
The character Venius has had a 

213
00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:24,400
lot of different versions told 
about him. 

214
00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:26,720
Not all of them end with him 
founding Rome. 

215
00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:30,760
Not all of them end with him, 
you know, having this long 

216
00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:32,200
odyssey around the 
Mediterranean. 

217
00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:35,440
But yeah, lots of versions. 
In both cases, Earth and 

218
00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:38,160
George's world, the stuff is all
made-up, right? 

219
00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:41,160
Scholars recognize this founding
story about Rome as that. 

220
00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:45,000
It's a story. 
We acknowledge that for Westeros

221
00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:47,440
as well we but even though 
there's magic in the world of 

222
00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:49,600
Westeros, we acknowledge that a 
lot of those things are probably

223
00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:51,640
made-up in world too. 
There, the Grey King probably 

224
00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:54,800
didn't live 300 years. 
It's possible though we have 

225
00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:59,240
more room to believe that one 
than we do in the real world. 

226
00:11:59,240 --> 00:12:02,600
But we still doubt the the, the 
one in even in Westeros. 

227
00:12:02,680 --> 00:12:06,200
And it's a good point to say 
that stories can be more 

228
00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:09,320
influential than history. 
I mean, the word story is in 

229
00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:12,160
history. 
So they are, they are connected,

230
00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:14,400
especially when they're 
historical stories. 

231
00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:17,120
I mean, I love historical 
fiction and this is a good place

232
00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:21,040
to remind ourselves that fantasy
is the oldest literary genre. 

233
00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:23,680
All these founding myths are not
historical fiction. 

234
00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:27,240
There's magic in them. 
There's impossible things in 

235
00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:28,480
them. 
That's fantasy. 

236
00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:31,360
Y'all. 
So for a certain Gilgamesh, 

237
00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:35,640
that's an epic poem. 
It's like 1800 BC that was 

238
00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:38,280
written. 
It's itself a fantasized version

239
00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:41,240
of a real king, so it was 
written a fantastical version of

240
00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:43,960
a real person. 
So this is how fantasy and 

241
00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:46,600
reality bleed together quite a 
lot and and where a lot of these

242
00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:49,720
stories come from. 
So what makes this a good place 

243
00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:52,440
to start is not only because 
it's Rome's start, but it's an 

244
00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:55,880
example of something that isn't 
completely Roman. 

245
00:12:56,080 --> 00:12:59,600
So much of Rome's origin story 
is borrowed from other myths. 

246
00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:01,520
Yeah. 
So that's pretty neat. 

247
00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:03,720
And there's a lot to bleed over 
and other things like, well, 

248
00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:06,480
Greco Roman. 
And like you said, Sean, Roman 

249
00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:10,000
influence was literally 
everywhere in the Mediterranean.

250
00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:13,440
So like, every single city has 
some sort of Roman influence 

251
00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:16,560
like today, you know? 
So we've got a lot of quotes 

252
00:13:16,560 --> 00:13:20,160
from George and a lot of 
parallels, and some of those are

253
00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:21,520
influences rather than 
parallels. 

254
00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:22,840
Some of them are direct 
influences. 

255
00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:26,080
We're not always going to know 
whether it's just the same or 

256
00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:27,920
whether George Pacific say you 
know, this is Roman, I'm going 

257
00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:29,680
to do it like that. 
Yeah, I'm, I'm almost scared. 

258
00:13:29,680 --> 00:13:31,960
I'm saying this stat wrong. 
But just to give you an idea, I 

259
00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:36,080
think the Roman Empire spanned 
2,000,000 square miles, to give 

260
00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:38,280
you an idea, right? 
Like when you say like the whole

261
00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:41,440
Mediterranean, like the whole 
Mediterranean was like, again, 

262
00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:43,920
the world almost has to be 
divided in the East and West, 

263
00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:47,640
'cause there just wasn't that 
much crossover from from Asia to

264
00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:49,440
Europe. 
And then of course, the Americas

265
00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:52,320
had their entire history 
happening, separated, you know, 

266
00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:55,800
by the ocean. 
But for that section, you know, 

267
00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:58,400
we'll say approximately 1/3 of 
the world. 

268
00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:01,840
The Mediterranean was like the 
center of it for 1000 years and 

269
00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:03,680
Rome was it. 
Yeah. 

270
00:14:03,680 --> 00:14:06,120
And that's why, and I say the 
word parallel. 

271
00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:09,280
It's an agnostic term usually, 
but especially in this case, 

272
00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:12,400
when what I mean by that is we 
know there are similarities 

273
00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:14,080
between these two things that 
we're comparing. 

274
00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:18,920
We just don't know if it's a 
direct influence, an indirect 

275
00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:22,800
influence or just a coincidence.
It's perhaps the best place for 

276
00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:25,800
us to start in terms of direct 
influences is one that helps 

277
00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:27,600
George get started on a song by 
some fire. 

278
00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:30,760
Now we know the first scene 
George ever imagined was the 

279
00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:34,400
dire wolf pups in the snow. 
That's an actual scene, Brandon,

280
00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:36,880
his brothers and all that. 
But the first inspiration he 

281
00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:41,480
cites directly is Hadrian's Wall
as an inspiration for the Wall. 

282
00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:44,000
You might think of the Great 
Wall when you think of the Wall,

283
00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:47,880
and undoubtedly that it has 
things in common, it's in terms 

284
00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:50,080
of size they're much more 
similar. 

285
00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:54,320
But other than that, it's really
Hadrian's Wall. 

286
00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:58,600
Is the better comparison other 
than sheer size, because most 

287
00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:02,080
everything about Westeros is 
Roman Britain anyway, or just 

288
00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:04,240
Britain, you know, England. 
He was asked about historical 

289
00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:06,880
influences and he answered that 
he usually amalgamates. 

290
00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:10,040
For example, he said it would be
wrong to call the Dothraki the 

291
00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:12,840
same as Mongols, but it would be
also wrong to say they aren't an

292
00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:14,840
influence. 
The point is that he rarely does

293
00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:17,840
one to ones. 
He combines things, mashes them 

294
00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:20,240
up. 
For example, the Dothraki are 

295
00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:23,600
part Mongol, but they're also 
Huns and Allens and other horse 

296
00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:26,800
riding step peoples. 
But he did say that occasionally

297
00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:28,720
he does basically a one to one 
parallel. 

298
00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:30,840
After all, it's not that he 
never does them, it's just that 

299
00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:32,520
it's rare. 
And here is one such example 

300
00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:35,080
quote. 
The one that comes most 

301
00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:39,560
prominently to mind was the 
Wall, which was inspired by my 

302
00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:43,880
visit to Hadrian's Wall the 
first time I visited England in 

303
00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:47,480
1991. 
I was driving around England and

304
00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:51,200
Scotland with my friend and we 
got to Hadrian's Wall at the 

305
00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:54,560
close of the day when the tour 
buses had all left. 

306
00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:57,600
We kind of had the place all to 
ourselves. 

307
00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:02,800
And I climbed up on the Wall and
I stood there and it was a cold,

308
00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:05,880
windy day and the sun was going 
down. 

309
00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:11,080
I just stared off across the 
hills and tried to imagine what 

310
00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:15,880
it would be like to be a Roman 
legionary stationed on that wall

311
00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:21,160
in 50 AD, staring out and 
wondering what would come from 

312
00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:25,160
those hills, what enemies? 
Because you were at the end of 

313
00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:30,080
the known world, and it was sort
of a profound moment that stayed

314
00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:33,840
with me. 
It was more than a decade before

315
00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:37,920
I began writing A Song of Ice 
and Fire, but I still recalled 

316
00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:41,560
that moment. 
Of course, in fantasy, you take 

317
00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:45,360
real world things and you make 
them bigger, more colorful and 

318
00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:49,280
more interesting. 
So Hadrians Wall, which I think 

319
00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:54,960
is about 10 feet tall, became 
this 700 foot tall wall of ice 

320
00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:57,920
in my books. 
And the things that come out of 

321
00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:01,440
the northern woods are a lot 
scarier than Scotsman. 

322
00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:04,920
And Scotsman can be pretty 
scary, especially those ancient 

323
00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:06,640
ones, right? 
No, there you have it. 

324
00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:09,160
One of the Seminole inspirations
for A Song of Ice and Fire. 

325
00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:12,440
Not the first one, of course, 
it's by then he had read a 

326
00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:14,720
bajillion books and knew a lot 
of things about history and 

327
00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:16,040
those are obviously influences 
as well. 

328
00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:18,960
But perhaps the first real world
location, like those are the 

329
00:17:19,079 --> 00:17:21,839
things that he read are 
different than like the physical

330
00:17:21,839 --> 00:17:24,960
inspiration of standing there 
and and actually feeling that 

331
00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:26,319
now. 
It's funny, there's a few things

332
00:17:26,319 --> 00:17:28,359
in that quote that that don't 
quite add up. 

333
00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:30,760
Like he says, I just stared off 
the hills and tried to imagine 

334
00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:32,920
what it would be like to be a 
Roman legionary on that wall in 

335
00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:34,400
50 AD. 
Well, Hadrian's Wall wasn't 

336
00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:37,680
built till 120AD122AD, so a 
little earlier. 

337
00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:40,120
That's not an important thing. 
He had a little extra 

338
00:17:40,120 --> 00:17:41,080
imagination going. 
On. 

339
00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:41,880
That's right. 
That's right. 

340
00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:44,360
And he also says it was more 
than a decade before he began 

341
00:17:44,360 --> 00:17:46,720
writing A Song of Ice and Fire. 
But he also says it was 1991 and

342
00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:48,800
he started writing A Song of Ice
Fire in 93. 

343
00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:51,960
So I'm not sure now he actually 
went. 

344
00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:55,080
Lysa Tuttle, who is the friend 
he's referring to here, moved 

345
00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:57,880
there in 1981, so maybe he meant
to say 81. 

346
00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:01,280
Or maybe the quote is wrong and 
he went there in 81, which we 12

347
00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:02,680
years and it says more than a 
decade. 

348
00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:05,640
Yeah, I like that idea that 
maybe the quote he visited 

349
00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:07,640
England for the first time in 
81, not 90. 

350
00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:09,800
One, unfortunately, she lived 
in. 

351
00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:11,880
She didn't move to Scotland till
1991. 

352
00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:14,080
She moved to England in 81, in 
Scotland in 91. 

353
00:18:14,120 --> 00:18:17,760
So I don't know what she said 
either way. 

354
00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:19,120
It doesn't quite work. 
But it's not important. 

355
00:18:19,120 --> 00:18:21,560
It's it's not really that, not 
really a part of the episode, 

356
00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:23,800
just kind of an idol wondering 
about this quote. 

357
00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:25,520
It's so worth pointing out it's 
really funny. 

358
00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:27,480
Yeah, it's kind of funny, he 
says. 

359
00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:29,160
It's about 10 feet tall. 
He was pretty close. 

360
00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:31,320
It's 12 feet tall. 
And of course it actually varies

361
00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:33,280
depending on what part of the 
wall it's very long. 

362
00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:35,880
It's not the exact same height 
all the way across. 

363
00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:39,840
And and and ultimately George 
also did the why not both thing 

364
00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:42,960
because there are things that 
come out of the northern woods 

365
00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:44,360
that are a lot scarier than 
Scotsman. 

366
00:18:44,360 --> 00:18:48,000
But there are also people who 
who are kind of like the Scots 

367
00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:51,160
that that come out of those 
woods as well with a free folk 

368
00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:52,200
AKA the wildlings. 
Right. 

369
00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:55,800
And those are very similar in in
a lot of ways to the peoples the

370
00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:57,640
Romans would have faced. 
That's what the Romans actually 

371
00:18:57,640 --> 00:18:59,240
would have been thinking about. 
So think about that. 

372
00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:02,880
Hadrian's Wall was begun in 122 
AD because those ancient Scots 

373
00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:05,400
were scary enough the wall 
didn't keep them from getting in

374
00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:06,560
really. 
They could climb over that 12 

375
00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:08,080
foot wall. 
I mean people climb over the 

376
00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:10,720
wall of Esteros, so you can 
climb over a 12 foot wall. 

377
00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:15,120
The thing is, it's a lot harder 
to steal stuff when you have to 

378
00:19:15,120 --> 00:19:17,920
get back over that wall leaving.
You know, like if you're 

379
00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:20,800
stealing people or livestock, 
how are you going to get back 

380
00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:22,440
over that wall? 
That's the problem. 

381
00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:25,120
So it really it didn't stop them
from coming in, but it did keep 

382
00:19:25,120 --> 00:19:26,880
them from stealing a lot of 
things. 

383
00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:29,440
It makes it harder to get across
on horseback. 

384
00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:32,200
It makes it harder to get large 
amounts of like food and 

385
00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:34,280
supplies across. 
It's not impossible, but it just

386
00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:38,440
severely slows down how quick 
you can get across, and a lot of

387
00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:40,840
times that's enough time to get 
warning to get defenses up and 

388
00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:42,840
stuff. 
And it severely limits how much 

389
00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:44,800
they can take once they do come 
across. 

390
00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:47,760
Yeah. 
So it's 73 miles long. 

391
00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:49,480
That's 117 kilometers. 
Now. 

392
00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:51,000
The wall is about 300 miles 
long. 

393
00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:55,040
So way longer, but 73 miles. 
It's really, really, really long

394
00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:56,400
now. 
A works project of this 

395
00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:59,760
magnitude is going to have a 
huge impact in a number of 

396
00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:01,280
undocumented and immeasurable 
ways. 

397
00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:02,520
You've got lots of people 
working on it. 

398
00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:04,480
You got lots of money going into
it. 

399
00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:07,080
You've got people getting moved.
You've got people like raids. 

400
00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:09,520
I don't know, lots of stuff. 
A huge project, right? 

401
00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:11,560
One of the many unintended 
consequences. 

402
00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:16,000
Is inspiring our favorite author
about 1000, eighteen, 160 years 

403
00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:17,880
later. 
So, like, they couldn't have. 

404
00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:19,480
I don't think Adrian predicted 
that part. 

405
00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:20,960
He's like, you know what? 
This is going to inspire some 

406
00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:23,640
writing later. 
You know, this wall is so big 

407
00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:26,920
and cool. 
You know it's it's might be a 

408
00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:29,640
funny idea that they thought 
they would inspire something 

409
00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:32,000
1800 years later. 
Exactly. 

410
00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:35,080
Or Martin, they had no idea. 
But I I can imagine they thought

411
00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:36,840
that their stories might be 
written about this. 

412
00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:39,120
It's epic enough. 
I can imagine they they might 

413
00:20:39,120 --> 00:20:41,960
have had a the idea what it 
might inspire. 

414
00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:45,040
People might exaggerate it too, 
like, oh, it's really, you know,

415
00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:47,000
they the stories would make it 
twice as tall. 

416
00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:49,320
It's 203040 feet tall. 
You can't see. 

417
00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:52,000
You know, it's it's actually, 
like we said, 12 feet tall. 

418
00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:54,120
And George, by the way, has 
admitted that he made his wall 

419
00:20:54,120 --> 00:20:56,400
too, too tall. 
He's like, yeah, I wanted to 

420
00:20:56,400 --> 00:21:00,400
make it bigger, but I didn't 
have to make it 688 feet taller,

421
00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:04,160
You know, 100 would have been 
fine. 200 would have been pretty

422
00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:06,480
huge. 
Even if you want to be epic and 

423
00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:09,920
fantastic, find 400. 
But 700 is like pushing the 

424
00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:12,440
limits of believability. 
Now, there's some evidence that 

425
00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:15,600
Hadrian's Wall was covered in 
limestone originally. 

426
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,960
Now that that didn't stick over 
the long term, you know, like 

427
00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:22,520
maintaining that Cove coating 
over 73 miles of wall would have

428
00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:25,000
been expensive, but it may have 
been how it was launched. 

429
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:27,280
And that would have really the 
stories about it then would have

430
00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:29,360
spread even farther and wider, 
'cause it would have looked like

431
00:21:29,360 --> 00:21:30,360
ice. 
It would have looked shiny. 

432
00:21:30,360 --> 00:21:33,000
It would have actually looked 
kind of like the Wall of 

433
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:33,760
Westeros. 
Now. 

434
00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:36,320
Most of it's gone now. 
The decline began around the 7th

435
00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:37,920
century. 
What's left is a World Heritage 

436
00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:39,280
Sites. 
You can of course still visit 

437
00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:41,920
it, as George did. 
Also, there's a bit of the 

438
00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:46,080
Antonine Wall left, which was 
built 40 years later but only 

439
00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:49,240
stayed for about 8 years. 
They abandoned it after only 

440
00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:50,880
eight years. 
It didn't last long. 

441
00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:53,440
I wanted to mention it because 
it's also a bit of a parallel. 

442
00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:56,520
Aries, as in the Mad King also 
wanted to build a second wall. 

443
00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:58,520
He's like, you know what, let's 
build another wall north of the 

444
00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:02,560
1st Wall, which of course he 
didn't do, but it likely would 

445
00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:03,920
have been about as successful as
this one. 

446
00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:06,280
Probably less successful and 
much harder to build because 

447
00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:10,880
farther north of the wall of 
Westeros it's the land is much 

448
00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:12,920
wider. 
Like it would have to be way 

449
00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:15,720
more than 300 miles to get that 
across from coast to coast. 

450
00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,880
So bad idea. 
But the also the Antonine Wall 

451
00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:22,520
had 19 forts which is the exact 
number of castles on the wall. 

452
00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:26,640
So maybe a coincidence, but 19 
is kind of a funny number to be 

453
00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:28,080
a. 
Coincidence. 

454
00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:31,280
Like three or five are kind of 
standard numbers you might 

455
00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:34,040
choose but 19? 
Yeah, I was like, interesting. 

456
00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:37,640
So now here's a shorter version 
of George answering a similar 

457
00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:40,120
question about the wall, but 
you'll notice some important 

458
00:22:40,120 --> 00:22:41,840
differences that I wanted to 
speak to. 

459
00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:44,400
Hadrian's Wall was an 
inspiration. 

460
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:49,680
In fantasy everything is bigger.
A friend of mine, Lisa Tuttle, 

461
00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:54,120
we wrote Wind Haven together, 
had just moved to Scotland and 

462
00:22:54,120 --> 00:22:57,880
was giving me a tour. 
We were driving in her car and 

463
00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:00,920
got to Hadrian's Wall. 
At the end of the day, the tour 

464
00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:04,240
buses were leaving. 
We walked along the top of the 

465
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:07,200
wall just as the sun was going 
down. 

466
00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:10,680
It was the fall. 
I stood there and looked out 

467
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:14,840
over the hills of Scotland and 
wondered what it would be like 

468
00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:19,920
to be a Roman centurion from 
Italy, Greece or even Africa, 

469
00:23:20,120 --> 00:23:23,440
covered in furs and not knowing 
what would be coming out of the 

470
00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:26,200
north at you. 
I wanted to capture that 

471
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:28,400
feeling, yeah. 
That's really powerful. 

472
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:29,520
That's a really provocative 
idea. 

473
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:33,040
Because it's not just the like. 
You may not have occurred to you

474
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:38,280
or me or anyone to consider 
where this particular legionary 

475
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:40,600
was from. 
You would think, OK, it's a it's

476
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,720
a Roman legionary in England. 
Standing on the wall, you might 

477
00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,120
forget that this guy isn't from 
there. 

478
00:23:46,120 --> 00:23:48,360
He might be from Italy, Greece 
or Africa. 

479
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:51,760
And here he is it to them, a 
part of the world they may not 

480
00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:53,400
have even known existed when 
they were growing up. 

481
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:55,520
It's so far remote and so far 
north. 

482
00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:57,160
Yeah. 
What's coming out like? 

483
00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:00,240
Well, we there, you're told this
is a place that needs guarding. 

484
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:01,320
Because there's Daniel. 
What? 

485
00:24:01,360 --> 00:24:04,480
Why did we must have built this 
wall for something, something 

486
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:06,320
dangerous. 
Must be just The idea that this 

487
00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:09,760
wall exists implies there's 
danger beyond it, and it's cold 

488
00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:11,920
and and windy and scary. 
So yeah. 

489
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:14,600
Great idea. 
Bigger wall means bigger danger.

490
00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,640
Yeah, yeah, like this is like, 
wait, how long is this wall? 

491
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:20,360
It's, it's from coast to coast. 
Whoa. 

492
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:21,880
They've never heard of such a 
thing. 

493
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:23,960
So it's like, wow, they must as 
a really. 

494
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:27,520
It's both a testament to Roman 
power and engineering, but also 

495
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:30,040
a testament to how dangerous the
things beyond that wall must be.

496
00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:32,760
And this is right at the heart 
of George's POV style. 

497
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:36,000
Not just telling the story so 
much as putting yourself in the 

498
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:38,680
shoes of the characters and 
imagine what the story is like 

499
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:41,080
from their perspective. 
Exactly what he's doing here. 

500
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:43,800
Capturing the feeling of what 
this Roman person would be 

501
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:47,800
feeling standing atop that wall,
looking out just as he did for 

502
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:49,120
the brothers of the Night's 
Watch. 

503
00:24:49,120 --> 00:24:52,720
You also come from all over 
Western some of them had never 

504
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:56,080
even seen snow before getting to
the Wall. 

505
00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:58,080
Probably if you come from Dorne,
you might not have seen snow 

506
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:01,160
before, or if you're really 
young, you know and hadn't been 

507
00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:02,840
a winner yet, Something like 
that. 

508
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:06,960
So not only did it inspire world
building, it inspired the style 

509
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:11,240
and format, the very conception 
of the series the way it's 

510
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:14,160
presented to us now. 
To be fair, that influence also 

511
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:17,240
came from other places like Tad 
Williams, Memory Star and Thorn 

512
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:20,160
series, which is also POV style 
George cites. 

513
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:23,280
That is a major influence. 
And of course Tad Williams is 

514
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:25,680
not the first person to write in
POV style either. 

515
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:29,280
So, you know, that's not, that's
another example of George 

516
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:31,880
getting influence from somebody.
But that person isn't the 

517
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:35,040
originator of that idea. 
We also know Roman forces 

518
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:37,280
patrolled the frontier beyond 
Hadrian's Wall. 

519
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:40,640
Kind of like Rangers, right? 
They're looking for bad guys. 

520
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,360
You know what counts as bad guys
to them, right? 

521
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,520
That's that's a little morally 
Gray in terms of who the actual 

522
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:48,960
bad guys are, if anyone. 
But you know what I mean? 

523
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:52,680
They're looking for enemies, 
foes and people causing 

524
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,400
problems, whatever. 
And you know, those are 

525
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:57,320
obviously people that are going 
to have a lot more in common 

526
00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:59,960
with Scotsman than the others 
will. 

527
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:02,440
So. 
So this is not an example of 

528
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:03,680
something that could have 
happened elsewhere. 

529
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:07,320
This is a truly unique 
inspiration. 

530
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:11,240
George's inspiration from a top 
Hadrian's Wall was a grand 

531
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,160
confluence of events, countless 
factors bringing him to that 

532
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:17,000
place that day, countless 
factors long before his birth to

533
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,560
create those conditions. 
If he had stood atop the Great 

534
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,600
Wall of China, I'm I would have 
probably been inspiring, but a 

535
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:24,520
totally different kind of 
inspiration. 

536
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:28,320
Different wall, different 
country, different landscape, 

537
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,240
different history behind it. 
He's not going to be thinking 

538
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,160
about legionaries. 
He might be thinking about, you 

539
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:35,760
know, Chinese guards on that 
wall or, you know, whatever. 

540
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:37,840
But it's different. 
In the same way that someone 

541
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,720
from China who went to visit the
Great Wall, when they stand 

542
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,240
there looking out, they're going
to imagine something different 

543
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:46,560
than if they had gone to 
Adrian's Wall and stood there 

544
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:48,760
looking at right. 
There might be some parallels, 

545
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,080
but some of the details of what 
gets evoked in you is going to 

546
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,400
be connected to the experiences 
and culture you've already 

547
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:56,040
experienced in your life up to 
that point. 

548
00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:59,280
Yeah, So he tried to put himself
in their shoes specifically of 

549
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,520
that those specific people, not 
just a person atop the wall, the

550
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:04,440
specific people that would have 
been there at that time. 

551
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:08,520
Or maybe sandals, Caligay, as 
they would be called in Latin. 

552
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:14,440
And surely George had been on 
top of other walls, on other 

553
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:17,760
castles, you know, But those 
weren't as inspirational as this

554
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:20,560
one. 
Now, beyond that, Lisa Tuttle 

555
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:22,840
and George were more than 
co-authors. 

556
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:24,400
He says he they wrote Wind Haven
together. 

557
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:26,720
That was her first novel and one
of his first. 

558
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:29,240
They were in a relationship and 
it was his first serious 

559
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:32,440
relationship. 
So they stayed on good terms 

560
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:34,360
because they weren't dating at 
this time. 

561
00:27:34,360 --> 00:27:36,280
They had already broken up a 
while before. 

562
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:39,560
So he might have had some 
feelings, little extra feelings,

563
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:41,160
you know, being around his ex or
whatever. 

564
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:44,640
I'm I'm maybe reading into it 
too much, but that seems like 

565
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:47,600
the kind of thing that would 
have you feeling a little more 

566
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,520
emotional than usual, especially
with all the other combination 

567
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,280
of stuff happening, all the 
sites and everything. 

568
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:55,760
She actually gets a little bit 
of partial indirect credit for 

569
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:58,400
launching A Song of Ice and 
Fire, since this trip was such a

570
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,560
big inspiration and he was 
specifically going there to 

571
00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:04,120
visit her. 
And they surely inspired each 

572
00:28:04,120 --> 00:28:06,360
other in a number of ways. 
They lived together, worked 

573
00:28:06,360 --> 00:28:09,520
together, wrote a book together,
and their breakup certainly 

574
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:13,360
inspired some things because he 
wrote a song for Leah, which is 

575
00:28:13,360 --> 00:28:16,560
his nickname for her set in his 
Thousand World universe. 

576
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,080
He once said it was inspired by 
his quote first serious romance,

577
00:28:20,120 --> 00:28:22,080
and he won a lot of awards for 
it. 

578
00:28:23,120 --> 00:28:25,960
If I knew better what kind of 
personality she had or has, 

579
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:30,800
she's not, she's not passed. 
I would be looking deeper for 

580
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:32,680
characters that might be like 
her within the story. 

581
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:34,840
Like hey, that's a little bit 
like Lisa Tuttle, but I don't 

582
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:36,680
know much of what she's like as 
an author. 

583
00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:39,520
She was known for her sci-fi 
stories and her feminist stories

584
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:42,440
and her non fiction feminist 
writings, one of which is the 

585
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,600
encyclopedia of feminism written
back in 1986. 

586
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:50,520
Now the in in a song for Leah. 
There's two characters, Rob and 

587
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:52,280
Leanna. 
Yes, Rob with two BS. 

588
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:55,960
Yes, and he's Rob. 
He and she's Lyanna. 

589
00:28:56,080 --> 00:29:00,040
In this story, Lyanna leaves Rob
there in a relationship to join 

590
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,160
this alien collective 
consciousness called the 

591
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:05,400
Grishka, and it's a proto 
version of the Werewood network.

592
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,400
If I had a nickel for every time
a loved one left me to join an 

593
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:14,840
alien conference. 
You'd have $0.10 because it's 

594
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,640
happened twice, right? 
Three times 3015. 

595
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:19,680
Wow, Dang rough man. 
Rough. 

596
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:24,080
I'm sorry, You might want to 
check with your partners to see 

597
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:27,560
if how interested they are. 
And like, what's your general 

598
00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:29,240
feeling on alien collectives, 
you know? 

599
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:31,560
8 nurses Bliss OK. 
Yeah, exactly. 

600
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:34,480
That's that's why they joined 
these these collectives in the 

601
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:36,840
1st place. 
So Lisa Tuttle first moved to 

602
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:38,160
London, then relocated to 
Scotland. 

603
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:40,880
Like I said, she lives in 
Scotland in a very small village

604
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,360
called Torrenturk, which is very
small. 

605
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:45,120
It is really remote too. 
I looked it up. 

606
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,520
It comes from the Gaelic phrase 
Hill of the Boar, and it has 

607
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:51,320
that name because it is the spot
where the last wild boar in all 

608
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:56,000
of Scotland was killed. 
Small chance George's boar 

609
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:58,600
killing Robert's story is 
related to this, but probably 

610
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:00,160
not. 
I just wanted to throw that out 

611
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:02,120
there. 
And this trip clearly inspired 

612
00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:03,920
George in other ways. 
After all, it's not just 

613
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:05,520
Hadrian's Wall that makes The 
Wall. 

614
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:09,080
I mean, Westeros is basically 
England and Ireland mashed 

615
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:11,960
together, flipped left to right 
horizontally, and made a lot 

616
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:13,960
larger. 
Here is some images on the 

617
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:15,880
screen that Ashea has prepared 
for Y'all. 

618
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:18,520
Very likely when he conceived of
the Wall, he went ahead and 

619
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:21,200
conceived of this continent and 
the shape and size at the same 

620
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,120
time. 
And well, here's a simple quote 

621
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:27,360
from George that shows how 
easily it comes to mind as a 

622
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:31,360
reference point. 
In very general terms, however, 

623
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:35,760
King's Landing is more populous 
than medieval London or Paris, 

624
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:40,440
but not so populous as medieval 
Constantinople or ancient Rome. 

625
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,360
Yeah, now some of you will know 
ancient Rome actually ruled all 

626
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:46,240
those places that were just 
named, except for King's Landing

627
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:48,200
of course. 
And of course some of them had 

628
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:50,720
different names, like it wasn't 
Paris at the time, although the 

629
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:54,040
first tribe to live in that area
apparently were called the 

630
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:58,640
Parisi. 
Rome made London they it was 

631
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,120
called Londinium at the time. 
It was a diverse city that grew 

632
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:05,240
extremely fast and suffered 
pirate attacks from Saxons, 

633
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:06,880
causing them to build city 
walls, something we just 

634
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:10,000
described happening to the early
days of King's Landing in 

635
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:11,920
Valarita. 
So by no means a direct 

636
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:14,200
influence. 
I mean, pirates just do that 

637
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:16,640
sort of thing. 
That's not that's just all, 

638
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:19,000
that's what happens everywhere. 
And the triple walls of 

639
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:21,840
Constantinople have been cited 
as a parallel to Karth, which 

640
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:24,440
also happens to dominate trade 
via a crucial sea lane. 

641
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:27,400
And Sean, you noted that's not 
the only place to have triple 

642
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:28,120
walls. 
Yeah. 

643
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:29,200
Highgarden, right? 
Yeah. 

644
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:31,000
Highgarden has a triple set of 
walls. 

645
00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:35,320
I I again, that's the type of 
thing that maybe isn't direct in

646
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:37,080
Rome. 
Inspiration at Georgia's having 

647
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:39,480
just a coincidence that walls 
get built. 

648
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,280
Three's not a crazy number. 
But I don't know. 

649
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,000
I I kind of suspect. 
I kind of suspect it was, at 

650
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,680
least in the back of his mind. 
It's worth a mention and. 

651
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,720
And with Constantinople and 
Karth, I mean the whole dominant

652
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:53,280
sea power, you know, controlling
the Black Sea versus controlling

653
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:55,840
the Jade Gates, I think that is 
another thing. 

654
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:58,440
Plus the city being super 
ancient like it's been around 

655
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:00,560
forever. 
And that's another parallel 

656
00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:02,080
because Constantinople's super 
old. 

657
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:04,000
It became the capital of the 
Roman Empire. 

658
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,320
Constantinople did about 330, 
which is about 200 years after 

659
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:09,960
Hadrian's. 
Well, Istanbul of course was 

660
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:11,680
Constantinople. 
If you have a date in 

661
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:13,680
Constantinople, they'll be 
waiting in Istanbul. 

662
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:16,760
Why did they change it? 
I can't say people just liked it

663
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:17,400
better that. 
Way liked it. 

664
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:20,160
Better that way. 
But before that it was Byzantium

665
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:21,920
and before that it was possibly 
Ligos. 

666
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:24,680
So another one of these things 
that just had a lot of names and

667
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,920
it's been called other things by
other cultures like Rumiat al 

668
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:32,920
Kubra, it means great city of 
the Romans and Mick Lagarde is 

669
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:34,160
what like the Norseman called 
it. 

670
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:38,360
So example of this in a song by 
fire is how not everyone in 

671
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:39,920
Essos calls it Westeros. 
Sometimes they call it the 

672
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:44,200
Sunset Kingdoms or just you 
savages or whatever. 

673
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:49,080
So surely there's some other 
names too that are said in their

674
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:51,320
own languages. 
And yeah, we haven't been to all

675
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:52,920
those places in the story, so we
don't know. 

676
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,400
But they surely exist. 
They must have a word for that 

677
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:57,000
big old continent far to the 
West. 

678
00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:58,520
They probably don't just call it
that. 

679
00:32:58,520 --> 00:32:59,760
Big old continent far to the 
West. 

680
00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:02,000
Let's talk about Rome and 
Valyria. 

681
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:06,000
One of the more perhaps 
straightforward parallel is one 

682
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,880
of the one that I think is the 
most popular and we'll work our 

683
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:11,400
way towards lesser known ones 
throughout this episode. 

684
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:17,800
Here is George in 2001 quote. 
Valyria at the zenith of its 

685
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:23,160
power was neither a Kingdom nor 
an empire, or at least it had 

686
00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:27,440
neither a king nor an emperor. 
It was more akin to the old 

687
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:33,120
Roman Republic, I suppose. 
In theory the franchise included

688
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:38,080
all freeholders, that is 
freeborn land owners. 

689
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:43,000
Of course, in practice, wealthy,
highborn and sorceressly 

690
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,760
powerful families came to 
dominate. 

691
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:50,480
Now in Rome you would say 
wealthy, highborn and connected 

692
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:53,920
to the priesthood, powerful and 
that's the equivalent of of 

693
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,400
sorceress stuff would be 
religion. 

694
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,960
Of course Roman religion was 
very powerful it it had a huge 

695
00:33:59,960 --> 00:34:02,280
impact. 
Priests were very powerful. 

696
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:04,840
Auguries and prophecies were a 
big, big deal. 

697
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:07,200
We'll we'll have several 
examples throughout the episode.

698
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:10,400
And of course prophecies 
obviously that's a big part of A

699
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:12,719
Song of Ice and Fire, a big part
of Valyrian history, big part of

700
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:14,639
that world. 
Continent wise. 

701
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:16,880
Valeri is a peninsula, So is 
Italy. 

702
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:20,600
While there may not be 14 flames
in Italy, there are certainly 

703
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:22,400
volcanoes. 
One of the most famous eruptions

704
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:26,000
of all time is Vesuvius and 
encased Pompeii and Ash. 

705
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:30,440
It's still studied today because
of how well it was preserved and

706
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:32,840
Rome of course was infected by 
eruptions elsewhere. 

707
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:36,480
It's just Pompeii grabs a lot of
the headlines, but there were 

708
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:38,719
others. 
And in the ancient world, as 

709
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:40,920
we've talked about in our 
episode on the doom and we 

710
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:44,840
talked about in another episode 
on volcanoes that's slipping my 

711
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:50,040
mind at this point, where we 
discussed how there can be a 

712
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:53,600
like volcanoes in Chile as in 
South America were were 

713
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:55,920
impacted. 
Rome because of just how big the

714
00:34:55,920 --> 00:35:00,600
volcano was and how big Rome is 
and how like it's such a big 

715
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:02,360
empire. 
So many parts of it are 

716
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:06,000
impacted. 
Vesuvius is close to passing for

717
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:10,120
a Valyrian name, especially the 
way it was written in sometimes 

718
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:13,320
back in the day, which was 
VESAEVUS. 

719
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:17,160
That looks very Valyrian. 
Or perhaps it should be the 

720
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:19,760
other way around, that Valyrian 
looks very much like that. 

721
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,360
Valyrian names also seem to have
a lot in common with Old English

722
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:24,760
with all the AE names, which 
that's a more clear influence 

723
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,960
since Westeros's looks like 
England. 

724
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:30,000
But Rome is just full of AE 
names. 

725
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,000
Latin is just full of that. 
And it had them first before Old

726
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:38,200
England Pretor Questor 
Prefectis, Caesar, Nias, 

727
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:39,800
Emilius. 
There's just so many I could 

728
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:42,040
just keep going. 
Even the word prey nomen, which 

729
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:46,680
is PRAE, means personal name. 
So yeah, Nina adds. 

730
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,000
The parallel between Rome and 
Valyria also extends to the 

731
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:52,800
language of High Valyrian. 
George intended in his he has 

732
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:56,520
said this High Valyrian to be 
like the Latin of Essos, a 

733
00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:59,880
language built up over time but 
which was altered after its 

734
00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:02,440
civilization collapsed. 
This alteration has happened and

735
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:04,160
has been going ongoing for 
centuries. 

736
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:07,760
Because it's languages change 
over time, over the centuries, 

737
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:11,280
High Valerian might not actually
resemble Latin and its 

738
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:14,480
construction. 
David Peterson specifically 

739
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:17,520
chose to distinguish Dracaris 
from his word from dragon 

740
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:20,360
because he disliked connecting 
Dracaris to the Latin word for 

741
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:23,120
dragon, which is Draco. 
But still it still has a lot in 

742
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:25,920
common and it certainly 
functionally the the equivalent 

743
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:28,440
of like a lot of highborn people
in Westeros learned Valyrian. 

744
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:30,840
Tyrion knows Valyrian. 
Jamie and Cersei were taught it.

745
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:34,920
It's just a court language that 
for for fancy people to learn 

746
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:36,640
and we're talking only the 
fancy. 

747
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:40,240
So like, like, I don't think 
Sansa learned High Valyrian. 

748
00:36:40,240 --> 00:36:43,120
Maybe she started learning it at
when she got to King's Landing, 

749
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:44,960
but I don't remember that being 
a part of her lessons. 

750
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:48,160
So I'm not even sure that that, 
like some of the great houses 

751
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:50,120
bother with that. 
But they may have, they may have

752
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:53,000
back earlier. 
They might be less likely to 

753
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:55,680
learn it High Valerian after 
they overthrow the Targaryen. 

754
00:36:55,720 --> 00:36:58,680
They might, I can imagine, like 
a a policy shift there, but. 

755
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:01,000
That's a good point. 
Now we don't know as much about 

756
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:03,040
the founding of Valyria. 
We've had done several episodes 

757
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:07,400
on Valyria, different time 
periods of different subtopics, 

758
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:08,800
and there's a lot of mystery 
there. 

759
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,400
But there's the the story about 
the shepherds, right? 

760
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:14,840
Being the first Valyrians were 
shepherds, which Romulus and 

761
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:18,520
Remus were raised by a shepherd 
and made to be shepherds, 'cause

762
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:21,080
that was his trade and he that's
what he knew how to do. 

763
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:25,720
So they learned from him. 
Valyria didn't have kings like 

764
00:37:25,720 --> 00:37:28,760
Rome doesn't, but Rome did in 
its earliest days, and maybe 

765
00:37:28,760 --> 00:37:30,720
Valyria did. 
Maybe Valyria had kings in its 

766
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:34,320
far-flung past that they finally
they moved past that, But we 

767
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:36,000
haven't heard it. 
Roman kings were very connected 

768
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:37,680
to the gods. 
One of their most important 

769
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:39,920
functions was being chief 
executive of the church. 

770
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:42,280
Like I said before, that's a big
deal. 

771
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:44,320
I like it was in a lot of 
ancient societies and even 

772
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:49,040
current ones, whereas Valyrian 
dragon Lords were maybe the 

773
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:52,360
rough equivalent. 
Maybe a combination of people 

774
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:54,920
who both had lots of religious 
power and lots of military 

775
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:59,400
power, which a lot of these 
biggest Romans did have. 

776
00:38:00,240 --> 00:38:01,720
So we're missing a lot of 
details with Valyrian 

777
00:38:01,720 --> 00:38:03,120
government. 
But power was highly 

778
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:05,640
concentrated in the capital, 
just like it was in Rome. 

779
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:08,840
Like all roads go to Rome, all 
the power flows into Rome, all 

780
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:11,760
the rulers live there. 
That wasn't explicitly true for 

781
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:15,200
the entirety of its very long 
existence, as Sean said. 

782
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:17,920
But basically that's a simple 
fine to think. 

783
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:20,040
Think of it that way. 
Because when it ceased to be 

784
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:23,440
concentrated in Rome, it was 
concentrated in Constantinople 

785
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:25,360
instead. 
Or Ravenna, or one of these 

786
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:28,400
other places where that were the
capital for brief periods. 

787
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:32,400
You know, another thing that's 
exemplifies exponentially adds 

788
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:37,240
to whatever the the relevance of
Rome and its connectedness to 

789
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:41,160
history and everything is it. 
That's where the central 

790
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:44,960
religions of the world, or the 
Western world at least sprouted 

791
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:48,680
from too right. 
Christianity, Islam and Judaism,

792
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:52,720
they all came out of that same 
region and time period and were 

793
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:56,440
kind of spread along with the 
Roman Empire. 

794
00:38:56,440 --> 00:39:00,440
And the interweaving of power 
between the government and the 

795
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:05,480
church was is prominent in that 
time as I don't know ever in 

796
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:08,160
history anywhere. 
And it's clearly represented in 

797
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:10,000
Game of Thrones also. 
Yeah well said. 

798
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:13,400
Nina points out there was 1 
Emperor of Valyria. 

799
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:17,440
A very short lived literally he 
tried to name himself Emperor 

800
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:20,080
after the Doom. 
And remember he took his army 

801
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:22,960
and his dragon into the 
peninsula and vanished. 

802
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:25,880
So what happened there? 
Now? 

803
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:29,840
Of course, Speaking of of slaves
and slave states, both of them 

804
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:33,640
were slash R The mines of 
Valyria are very similar to the 

805
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:36,360
mines of Spain. 
The mines of Spain produced huge

806
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:38,880
amounts of silver and were just 
a horror to read about them. 

807
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:41,560
It's just terrifying to read 
about the conditions and the 

808
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:43,880
treatment of of those workers, 
those slaves. 

809
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:46,840
Lots of people dying of fumes, 
of cave insurance, of 

810
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:49,920
explosions, of exposure or 
whatever. 

811
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:53,120
Very similar to what you read 
about the the the conditions 

812
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:54,520
that created the first Faceless 
Men. 

813
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:56,040
Well, it's worth it, 'cause they
were paid well. 

814
00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:58,200
Oh wait, no, they were. 
Oh. 

815
00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:03,200
Oh yeah, and since Andal 
cultural values seem so often to

816
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:05,680
be the direct opposite of 
Valyrian cultural values, we've 

817
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:07,800
we've theorized that they 
develop in response. 

818
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:10,960
For example, Valyrians are OK 
with incest. 

819
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:12,960
Well, Andal's think it's an 
abomination. 

820
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:15,480
And all sexuality is very 
conservative. 

821
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:17,640
Perhaps Liberians were more 
liberal about it in that sense. 

822
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:19,800
Obviously I'm not using modern 
political terms when I say 

823
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:23,640
Conservative and Liberal, but to
simplify, Roman sexuality was 

824
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:25,960
conservative for women, wide 
open for men. 

825
00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:29,160
As long as you're in the 
dominant role, men could do 

826
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:31,360
whatever. 
As long as they're the dominant 

827
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:34,760
partner with another man, with a
woman, with whatever, as long as

828
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:37,440
they're dominant, it's fine. 
So it's hard to compare to, like

829
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:40,320
modern American values, whatever
that even means. 

830
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:45,720
So overall they were more fluid 
with their gender boundaries as 

831
00:40:45,720 --> 00:40:47,040
compared to, say, ancient 
Greece. 

832
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:51,160
But there were heavy taboos and 
they could get you like removed 

833
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:54,760
from office, like 'cause they 
were illegal, not just being 

834
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:58,200
kicked out of social circles, 
which is the normal penalty for 

835
00:40:58,720 --> 00:41:00,800
violating social taboos and 
stuff like that. 

836
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:04,360
Speaking of sexuality, the word 
prostitute, which does exist in 

837
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:07,680
Westeros is a Latin word. 
So sometimes opposite seem like 

838
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:11,000
parallels with Rome being very 
strict and conservative with 

839
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:13,120
dress and nudity. 
They were not strict with 

840
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:16,800
inheritance and adoption like 
emperors were often just chosen 

841
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:20,160
to be and then adopted by the 
previous emperor rather than 

842
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:23,160
being the child of their body or
even a relative. 

843
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:26,760
Very opposite of Valyria, right?
Got to keep it in the family to 

844
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:29,760
the point of incest. 
Now, as we've noted in our own 

845
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:32,640
interview with George, he says 
that wasn't true at all levels 

846
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:35,000
of society, which is also sort 
of true with Rome. 

847
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:38,880
Because adoption and inheritance
isn't really a concern when 

848
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:43,280
you're of not rich. 
You know, you're like, it's not 

849
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:45,760
doesn't matter as much. 
It's not a big issue to like 

850
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:48,200
well, 'cause it's you're part of
it is who's going to own this 

851
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:49,720
stuff. 
When you don't have a lot of 

852
00:41:49,720 --> 00:41:52,720
stuff to own, then it's not such
a big thing to argue over. 

853
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:55,840
And that might be a thing that 
could have happened in Valyria. 

854
00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:59,240
There may have been Roman style 
adoptions in Valyria to keep 

855
00:41:59,240 --> 00:42:04,640
their families going. 
We see it in Westeros, like all 

856
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:06,240
these great houses. 
There's no way they've actually 

857
00:42:06,240 --> 00:42:08,080
existed this long without some 
break in the line. 

858
00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:11,320
They've they've fibbed like bail
the Bard is is an example of 

859
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:15,600
that, that there was shenanigans
there with a a person being 

860
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:18,000
named Stark who might not have 
been it may have been a bastard 

861
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:20,480
etcetera. 
But that nearly probably every 

862
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:22,880
house has that on their record. 
Maybe multiple cases. 

863
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:25,800
An exception to Rome's taboo on 
nudity was there public baths. 

864
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:30,040
And I suspect we we've talked 
about Valyria guessing that they

865
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:32,400
had baths too because of all the
volcanoes and the like, the 

866
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:35,160
natural springs that would be 
they'd be able to make use of 

867
00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:37,480
that. 
Roman Valyria were generally 

868
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:38,800
very tolerant of other 
religions. 

869
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:41,240
They allowed other religions to 
be practiced, though there were 

870
00:42:41,240 --> 00:42:44,080
definitely exceptions. 
Of course, persecutions of Jews 

871
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:46,840
and Christians under the Roman 
Empire as well attributed. 

872
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:49,480
And then eventually Constantine 
became Christian. 

873
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:51,640
And then it kind of was the the 
in reverse. 

874
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:53,360
The persecution went the other 
way. 

875
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:57,720
And yeah, it's just, again, it's
hard to refer to these things as

876
00:42:57,720 --> 00:43:01,640
a monolith when the Rome has 
existed for so long and it's not

877
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:04,280
hasn't been the same always. 
You just made me think of 

878
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:06,800
something. 
Where were Jamie and Brienne in 

879
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:08,600
that bath scene? 
Paranol. 

880
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:10,440
Who was it located that was 
Harrenhal? 

881
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:13,280
Which is a newer castle, but 
those are huge baths. 

882
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:14,920
Yeah, you're right, those are 
giant baths made for lots of 

883
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:16,240
people. 
So that's a good point. 

884
00:43:16,240 --> 00:43:17,920
That's a very good catch. 
I didn't think of those baths in

885
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:19,720
Harrenhal. 
That's less than 300 year old 

886
00:43:19,720 --> 00:43:21,880
castle and it's probably what he
probably wasn't the first guy to

887
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:24,080
build baths, though it is 
interesting that it was an iron 

888
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:27,040
born king that made those. 
Yeah, it might not have been 

889
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:29,920
totally public, it might have 
just been for the the elite of 

890
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:30,960
the castle. 
Maybe. 

891
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:32,880
But. 
But it makes me wonder, what if 

892
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:34,400
other castles had them? 
I don't know. 

893
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:36,280
Yeah, that's a great catch. 
I didn't think of that. 

894
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:37,000
The baths. 
Good one. 

895
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:41,000
Master of horse OK, we've heard 
that term in the Song of Ice and

896
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:43,240
Fire a bunch of times. 
It's an official position in 

897
00:43:43,240 --> 00:43:45,800
several European nations and was
common. 

898
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:48,200
And there's also some in Asia. 
There's in China and maybe 

899
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:49,560
Japan. 
It was common in the days of 

900
00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:51,320
monarchies. 
The as an official title, but 

901
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:53,200
the title originated in the 
Roman Republic. 

902
00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:56,040
It was originally the dictator's
second in command. 

903
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:59,760
Dictator was a temporary office 
for when Rome was at war 

904
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:03,680
originally, and when they were 
named, they got to name a second

905
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:06,360
in command when the dictator's 
term of office expired. 

906
00:44:06,720 --> 00:44:09,120
The Master Force also left 
office. 

907
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:12,120
Marc Anthony was Caesar's master
force for a while. 

908
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:17,000
Holland was Winterfell's master 
force, so it's not nearly as big

909
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:18,120
a title. 
It's not as fancy. 

910
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:20,760
It's not for nobles only. 
Now he was killed in the Red 

911
00:44:20,760 --> 00:44:24,040
Keep during the fallout after 
Joffrey's ascension. 

912
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:27,400
But remember, Harwin is his son 
and joins the Brotherhood 

913
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:29,360
Without Banners and he's still 
alive now. 

914
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:33,480
The master of horse at 
Winterfell was Joseph and he's 

915
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:35,840
the one who trains Dancer. 
So that's after 'cause we know 

916
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:37,760
Holland goes S with Ned and they
have to appoint a new one. 

917
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:41,240
Joseph is probably dead because 
of the Bolton's Roman roads 

918
00:44:41,240 --> 00:44:43,520
versus the Dragon roads. 
Of course, we cannot forget the 

919
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:45,320
roads. 
Yes, we've already talked about 

920
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:48,000
them all roads leading to Rome, 
all roads lead to Valyria too. 

921
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:50,000
You can pretty much still see 
that even after the doom. 

922
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:52,320
Look at the map. 
The roads are visible there, and

923
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:54,320
they're pretty much all going 
there, and they're considered A 

924
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:56,680
Wonder of the World by Lomas 
Longstrider. 

925
00:44:57,240 --> 00:45:00,240
Tyrion notes that they are a 
quote, a ribbon of fused stone 

926
00:45:00,240 --> 00:45:02,880
raised half a foot above the 
ground to allow rainfall and 

927
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:05,240
snowmelt to run off. 
Pretty clever. 

928
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:08,960
Still largely undamaged despite 
the passage of so much time. 

929
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:11,720
Maybe a little bit of magic in 
there, but the Roman roads are 

930
00:45:11,720 --> 00:45:13,760
similarly amazing. 
A lot of them are still there. 

931
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:18,880
Well of course they've been you 
know repaved and Re picked up 

932
00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:20,400
and all that. 
They required more upkeeping 

933
00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:22,920
this, but Rome was good about 
upkeeping them and they had that

934
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:25,920
same feature of the slight angle
to allow water to run off and 

935
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:29,280
being slightly raised above they
would come with gravel paths on 

936
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:32,400
the side for foot traffic and 
they had they would have like 

937
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:36,320
ruts for wheels to fit in around
corners, things like that. 

938
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:38,160
So it wouldn't you wouldn't fall
off the side. 

939
00:45:38,720 --> 00:45:41,640
Maybe some of those innovations 
were done by the Valyrians, but 

940
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:45,920
regardless, it's very similar. 
Romans were very, very stubborn 

941
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:47,760
about making those roads as 
straight as possible. 

942
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:49,240
They're like, we're not going to
curve. 

943
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:51,280
If there's a hill, we go through
it. 

944
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:52,600
If there's a mountain, we go 
under it. 

945
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:54,040
If there's a river, we go over 
it. 

946
00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:57,400
We aren't curving unless we 
absolutely have to, unless 

947
00:45:57,400 --> 00:46:00,880
there's like the sea, you know? 
So they made lots of bridges, 

948
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:03,840
tunnels and such. 
And they used concrete, which 

949
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:06,560
they didn't invent that, but 
they did innovate it. 

950
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:09,800
Volcanic ash was added by Romans
to concrete to make it set 

951
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:13,240
underwater and they added blood 
to make it resistance to frost. 

952
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:16,800
So really, yeah, they added ash 
and blood. 

953
00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:18,680
It's like fire and blood was 
added to their concrete. 

954
00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:20,320
So I love that. 
It's kind of a not really a 

955
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:23,240
parallel, but kind of is just 
kind of a fun little coincidence

956
00:46:23,240 --> 00:46:25,200
I guess. 
They also added horse hair to 

957
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:27,400
concrete to make it less likely 
to crack. 

958
00:46:27,720 --> 00:46:29,840
Seawater. 
Also, they added seawater, which

959
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:31,480
made it. 
It was like a secret ingredient 

960
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:33,080
that made it more sturdy. 
Yeah. 

961
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:35,680
It was like, so obvious to them 
that they didn't write it. 

962
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:37,400
They just put water, you know, 
like the ingredients of water. 

963
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:38,680
And they were like, Oh yeah, of 
course it's seawater. 

964
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:41,080
Why would you use fresh water? 
They just took that for granted 

965
00:46:41,240 --> 00:46:45,040
so that when you hear stories 
about blood being added to the 

966
00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:48,000
mortar again, Harrenhal, that 
comes up again, supposedly that 

967
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:49,320
was the thing, blood being added
to the mortar. 

968
00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:51,600
It's not entirely fantastical 
and that this is not something I

969
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:54,000
knew prior to looking this 
episode, researching this 

970
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:55,760
episode. 
Because yeah, that's where it's 

971
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:57,280
like, really? 
They actually put blood in there

972
00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:00,440
and it had a a meaning other 
than just to intimidate people, 

973
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:05,640
but it was also probably both. 
It also probably wasn't like the

974
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:08,840
blood of virgins sacrifice. 
It was probably like from the 

975
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:10,640
butcher shop, you know, it 
probably wasn't human. 

976
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:12,280
Extra blood. 
Yeah, maybe sometimes it was the

977
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:14,480
blood of virgins. 
But yeah, not not always. 

978
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:17,760
So it's a little fun fact. 
Trivia here. 

979
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:21,160
Concrete is the most used human 
made substance in the world. 

980
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:25,120
It's there's about 1 cubic meter
of concrete for every person in 

981
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:28,560
the world. 
It's been used since 5600 BC. 

982
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:30,400
Concrete has existed that long. 
It's super old. 

983
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:33,840
So roads. 
Now the basic point of these 

984
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:37,440
roads is, yeah, it connects 
thing place to place, right? 

985
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:38,920
But that. 
But that's not the entire 

986
00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:41,120
purpose of it, right? 
What are the people in power who

987
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:42,320
built these roads? 
What are they after? 

988
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:46,840
Wealth and more power because it
enables connectivity to the 

989
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:48,200
places that you're making money 
from. 

990
00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:50,320
If anything goes wrong, you can 
send your soldiers there really 

991
00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:52,360
fast. 
More goods flow back and forth, 

992
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:55,040
which means more taxes, which 
means more power, but it also 

993
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:56,840
means peace. 
It also, there's it's not all 

994
00:47:56,840 --> 00:47:58,120
cynical. 
We shouldn't look at it all just

995
00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:00,400
that way, although it's fair to 
say that's how a lot of it is 

996
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:02,640
originated. 
It also curtails starvation. 

997
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:04,600
It gets food. 
That's one of the main goods. 

998
00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:06,160
It gets moved. 
Especially in ancient times, it 

999
00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:07,920
gets moved around. 
Is food you? 

1000
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:09,600
Need to move quickly because of 
spoilage, right? 

1001
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:11,040
Like. 
Right. 

1002
00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:14,000
And and just cause the distance 
of how far away that the fields 

1003
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:15,840
are to where the centers of 
population are. 

1004
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:18,400
As cities get bigger, you have 
more people living there than 

1005
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:20,200
land to grow food. 
So you need to bring it from 

1006
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:23,960
farther away. 
And it's even if it's, you know,

1007
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:28,400
this greedy plan by the rulers 
of the city to not let their 

1008
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:30,240
people starve, OK. 
It's so important. 

1009
00:48:30,240 --> 00:48:31,600
It's still a good thing that's 
happening. 

1010
00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:35,680
And once that happens, whether 
it's for power or food, you also

1011
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:38,840
end up spreading knowledge and 
culture, make it easier for 

1012
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:41,400
people to move and explore and 
visit and everything else. 

1013
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:42,840
And they would take advantage of
that. 

1014
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:44,920
While a lot of that's happening,
incidentally, they're also 

1015
00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:47,800
spreading Valyrian hegemony and 
making sure everybody knows how 

1016
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:51,320
powerful the Dragon Lords are 
and putting reminders of of who 

1017
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:53,200
they are and and what kind of 
power they wield. 

1018
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:58,160
Because it's not like they have,
you know, videos to show people 

1019
00:48:58,280 --> 00:48:59,640
like everyone. 
You got to see a dragon every 

1020
00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:01,720
once in a while to remind you 
know, what you're up against. 

1021
00:49:01,720 --> 00:49:03,160
Let's don't get uppity, you 
know? 

1022
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:06,560
So yeah, that's a big deal. 
And of course, like I said, the 

1023
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:09,360
armies are a big deal. 
Now, the army thing is would 

1024
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:11,880
have mattered less to Valyria, 
because the Dragons don't need 

1025
00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:13,080
that. 
But it still matters. 

1026
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:15,600
It still matters a lot for for 
military purposes. 

1027
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:18,120
And of course, it's enormous for
for trade. 

1028
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:20,640
Yeah, the dragon can fly to 
someone's castle and burn it 

1029
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:23,360
down, but the dragon can't take 
over the castle. 

1030
00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:26,840
You got to get soldiers, people,
humans there to take over 

1031
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:28,440
anything. 
And you want them to be able to 

1032
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:29,920
get there quickly, Yeah. 
Yeah. 

1033
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:31,320
That's good. 
Yeah, makes sense. 

1034
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:33,240
So Nina adds another parallel 
here. 

1035
00:49:33,240 --> 00:49:37,360
Rome and Valyria also have this 
this thing where people, it was 

1036
00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:41,360
so big, so powerful for so long,
that people want to connect 

1037
00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:43,080
themselves to it after it ceases
to exist. 

1038
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:47,400
Volantis calling themselves the 
New Valyria, trying to take up 

1039
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:48,880
all that mantle, calling 
themselves. 

1040
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:51,120
They literally called themselves
the First Daughter of Valyria. 

1041
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:53,760
Only direct descendants of 
Valyrian citizens are allowed to

1042
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:56,680
live within their black walls, 
that inner part of the city. 

1043
00:49:56,680 --> 00:50:00,880
It's ruled like a freehold. 
They do so many things like 

1044
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:06,040
Valyria did on purpose, to 
recapture that awe, that 

1045
00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:10,600
intimidation. 
Likewise, it's super common in 

1046
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:13,680
the real world for Roman stuff 
to have been referred to where 

1047
00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:15,640
you just like the Romans did in 
their early days, trying to 

1048
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:19,480
connect themselves to Troy and 
to these ancient gods long after

1049
00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:21,280
that. 
When Rome was the big dog, 

1050
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:23,760
everyone was trying to connect 
themselves to them. 

1051
00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:27,080
Everybody's like Charlemagne 
styled himself Augustus, an 

1052
00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:29,000
emperor of the Romans. 
This guy lived in Germany. 

1053
00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:33,760
Caesar is Kaiser, right? 
Imperator is emperor. 

1054
00:50:33,760 --> 00:50:36,800
Like these are all these are 
Roman words but there's so many 

1055
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:38,360
right of people using Roman 
titles. 

1056
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:40,840
The Holy Roman Empire is 
nothing. 

1057
00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:42,480
There's nothing Roman about it 
really. 

1058
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:44,200
It's it's another that was that 
was in Germany. 

1059
00:50:44,240 --> 00:50:46,320
You know it didn't Rome wasn't a
part of it. 

1060
00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:47,680
Rome was not part of the Holy 
Roman Empire. 

1061
00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:56,000
It wasn't even really that holy,
but so So this is a rich 

1062
00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:59,320
parallel for sure. 
And George's descriptions of of 

1063
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:03,840
volunteer elections, chaotic. 
People bribing each other 

1064
00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:07,520
openly, not not like people 
bribing of each other like 

1065
00:51:07,520 --> 00:51:08,680
officials. 
Although it's really that's 

1066
00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:11,280
happening too that that more 
often happens behind closed 

1067
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:14,280
doors. 
I mean, candidates bribing the 

1068
00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:17,000
people openly. 
Like I'm holding a party for 

1069
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:18,480
people that live in this 
neighborhood. 

1070
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:21,560
Everybody gets wine and food and
all this. 

1071
00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:26,360
And it's a it's an old strategy.
It's been used in every culture 

1072
00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:31,560
probably of getting people to 
forget their woes by giving them

1073
00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:33,360
a little something. 
Something showing that, yeah, 

1074
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:37,280
look, rich people giving back, 
yeah, a little tiny bit one week

1075
00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:41,000
of the year, you know, But it it
it's something, it's more than 

1076
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:44,520
the other guy gave them. 
So it's it's a reason to pick 

1077
00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:46,760
this guy over everybody else. 
Like you want you want me to go 

1078
00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:49,240
vote, like give me some wine and
food to go vote for you. 

1079
00:51:49,240 --> 00:51:50,640
OK. 
A lot of people are willing to 

1080
00:51:50,640 --> 00:51:52,480
do that, which is one of the one
of the reasons why at a 

1081
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:54,600
functional society we need 
people to not be so easily 

1082
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:56,840
bribable, which means they need 
to not be so broke. 

1083
00:51:57,000 --> 00:52:00,520
It is a flawed democracy, is it?
You can pay people off to vote 

1084
00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:03,240
your way, wherever, whoever, 
however you're paying them, but.

1085
00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:06,000
And this is very much like how 
Roman Republic elections were. 

1086
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:08,520
Like during the Empire, well, 
they don't really have elections

1087
00:52:08,520 --> 00:52:11,400
anymore, or they did have them. 
They were different or they 

1088
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:13,800
didn't have them at all. 
But during the Republic, same 

1089
00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:19,560
thing, very chaotic, very like 
riots, free food and drink, same

1090
00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:23,320
sort of public bribery, just 
swaying people with speeches, 

1091
00:52:23,320 --> 00:52:26,040
manipulating them with with 
things that aren't true, 

1092
00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:30,000
appealing to fear and and 
religion and things that we 

1093
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:32,800
still see to this day. 
Not explicitly Roman things, in 

1094
00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:36,640
other words, but on a grander 
scale, because Rome was so big 

1095
00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:39,760
that these things had a had an 
impact on much more people than 

1096
00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:41,440
they would in most any other 
time or place. 

1097
00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:45,200
I I I can imagine a lot of like 
manipulation, you know? 

1098
00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:47,760
It might have been harder to 
coordinate or organize, but also

1099
00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:50,560
harder to discover if it was 
happening, you know? 

1100
00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:55,520
But all these flaws and issues 
and turmoil aside, it's still 

1101
00:52:55,520 --> 00:52:59,840
better than oldest born son. 
That's still so lame and random.

1102
00:52:59,840 --> 00:53:00,320
It's. 
Still better. 

1103
00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:02,040
It's so better. 
Yeah. 

1104
00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:06,800
Yeah, especially given how now 
you see some of the same things 

1105
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:08,480
like, well, the problem, one of 
the problems with the oldest 

1106
00:53:08,480 --> 00:53:11,120
born son is that the youngest, 
younger sons can just kill their

1107
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:14,520
brother and move on up. 
That still happens in scenarios 

1108
00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:18,320
like this where it's, well, 
Emperor Augustus, we're going to

1109
00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:20,920
come back to this later. 
He's like, well, I can, I've got

1110
00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:23,640
a bunch of different candidates 
who I can name as my successor. 

1111
00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:26,880
Well, if those are all known 
well then one of they can just 

1112
00:53:26,880 --> 00:53:28,960
kill each other and it's the 
same, ends up being similar. 

1113
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:30,560
I was like, well, now only one 
of them has left. 

1114
00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:33,000
I got to name this one, you 
know, and it isn't. 

1115
00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:34,200
And it's the same problem 
happens. 

1116
00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:36,400
It isn't necessarily the younger
one who killed the other ones. 

1117
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:38,920
It was people who would benefit 
more from that one being in 

1118
00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:40,960
charge. 
I still got to say another big 

1119
00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:43,400
problem is that you eliminate 
half of the population. 

1120
00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:45,560
Oh yeah, that's bad. 
Yeah, no doubt. 

1121
00:53:45,560 --> 00:53:48,680
Yeah, that's that's not good. 
Which is actually an interesting

1122
00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:50,840
difference that George gave to 
Volantis. 

1123
00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:53,360
Volunteer elections are women 
can win those. 

1124
00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:55,920
But Roman Republic? 
No, not so much. 

1125
00:53:56,080 --> 00:53:58,680
So here's a few. 
We're close to our halfway 

1126
00:53:58,680 --> 00:53:59,840
point. 
Let's here's a few kind of 

1127
00:53:59,840 --> 00:54:05,240
miscellaneous things. 
And then we'll come back to talk

1128
00:54:05,240 --> 00:54:08,880
about the stabbings and Slaver's
Bay and the great Empire of the 

1129
00:54:08,880 --> 00:54:10,040
Dawn and lots of other fun 
stuff. 

1130
00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:12,200
Yeah. 
So, Sean, you've got one here 

1131
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:13,120
for us. 
Take it away. 

1132
00:54:13,160 --> 00:54:19,160
Yeah, about 400 BCE the Gauls 
won the battle of Aliyah and 

1133
00:54:19,160 --> 00:54:21,880
they're pressing Rome. 
And again, these stories have a 

1134
00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:23,560
lot of like kind of minor 
variations. 

1135
00:54:23,560 --> 00:54:26,960
Some pieces are suspect, but. 
But the idea is that to stave 

1136
00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:31,320
them off, Rome was going to give
them 1000 lbs of gold, which is 

1137
00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:33,880
like a huge amount of money, 
right? 

1138
00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:38,280
And it would be a chore to like 
gather and give it to him. 

1139
00:54:38,280 --> 00:54:40,680
It reminds me a little bit of 
that story in Dorne where didn't

1140
00:54:40,680 --> 00:54:46,600
they pay a huge gold ransom but 
but they realize in the process,

1141
00:54:46,600 --> 00:54:48,960
when they're when they're going 
through that the payment of the 

1142
00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:51,640
gold and they're using scales to
measure it. 

1143
00:54:51,640 --> 00:54:55,440
They realize that the Gauls are 
using rigged scales to get extra

1144
00:54:55,440 --> 00:54:57,480
gold. 
And they're like, hey, you know,

1145
00:54:57,480 --> 00:55:02,840
like the the treaty's off and 
General Marcus Camillus rallies 

1146
00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:06,240
the troops to counter attack the
Gauls, fights them off and 

1147
00:55:06,240 --> 00:55:09,040
defeats them. 
And he's reported to have said 

1148
00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:13,920
with iron, not with gold. 
Rome buys her freedom and that. 

1149
00:55:14,120 --> 00:55:18,800
I wonder I if that was a 
specific Ironborn inspiration 

1150
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:20,680
for George. 
Maybe just a coincidence, but 

1151
00:55:20,680 --> 00:55:22,320
that seems really close, you 
know? 

1152
00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:24,560
I don't know. 
I'm saying the gall of those 

1153
00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:25,720
galls, the. 
Gall. 

1154
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:29,080
That's where the that's where 
they got that that word. 

1155
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:33,600
For putting their finger on the 
scales. 

1156
00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:36,360
That's right. 
That's hilarious. 

1157
00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:37,800
Yeah, that's good. 
That's a very good one for the 

1158
00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:38,720
iron Prize. 
I love it. 

1159
00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:41,720
I I imagine there's a few other 
examples out there in the real 

1160
00:55:41,720 --> 00:55:44,800
world of people saying iron 
versus gold making that 

1161
00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:46,800
comparison of buying it versus 
fighting with it. 

1162
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:48,200
I'm sure that's that symbolism 
comes up. 

1163
00:55:48,200 --> 00:55:49,680
But this is such a famous 
example, like George has 

1164
00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:51,280
probably heard this one. 
Maybe it's the first time he 

1165
00:55:51,280 --> 00:55:55,520
heard that reference because 
again, this one would stand 

1166
00:55:55,520 --> 00:55:58,520
above a lot of other similar 
tales because it's a Roman story

1167
00:55:58,520 --> 00:56:00,560
and that thus more famous, more 
popular. 

1168
00:56:00,680 --> 00:56:04,240
There's a city in Valyria, of 
course, quite ruined now called 

1169
00:56:04,280 --> 00:56:07,040
Aquos Dayan, and it reminds me 
of a little bit in name of 

1170
00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:10,520
Aquileia, which is a famous 
Roman city, a big Roman city. 

1171
00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:14,040
The word Valerian, like 
Valyrian, is Latin. 

1172
00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:16,600
It's an herb, the Valyrian herb.
It's also an emperor. 

1173
00:56:16,600 --> 00:56:20,920
There was an emperor, Valyrian. 
He reigned about 130 years after

1174
00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:24,040
Hadrian's Wall began, meaning 
his reign started then. 

1175
00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:28,120
He didn't reign for 130 years. 
Valyrian was the first Roman 

1176
00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:31,560
Empire captured in battle, 
loosely similar to Ares as a 

1177
00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:34,120
captive king at Duskendale. 
Because he was treated very 

1178
00:56:34,120 --> 00:56:35,800
shabbily. 
They they mocked him and 

1179
00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:39,720
humiliated him and did all this 
stuff to him while he was in 

1180
00:56:39,720 --> 00:56:41,800
captivity. 
One version of Valyrian's death 

1181
00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:45,360
is that he was flayed so a 
little Bolton for you, but 

1182
00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:48,320
another one is that he was 
forced to swallow molten gold, 

1183
00:56:48,560 --> 00:56:51,400
which is a little Valerian. 
Viserys. 

1184
00:56:51,400 --> 00:56:56,600
Well, he was also a Valyrian. 
So there you go, I said Master 

1185
00:56:56,600 --> 00:56:58,920
of horse is, you know, a Roman 
title. 

1186
00:56:58,920 --> 00:57:01,160
It's actually the word is 
magister equitum. 

1187
00:57:01,320 --> 00:57:03,760
Because yes, magister is also a 
Latin word. 

1188
00:57:03,760 --> 00:57:07,520
So, Magister Illyrio, the 
Magisters of various other Free 

1189
00:57:07,520 --> 00:57:09,400
Cities. 
Not every free city uses that 

1190
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:12,480
title, but a lot of them do. 
Implication being that word is 

1191
00:57:12,480 --> 00:57:14,320
Valyrian probably came from 
Valyria. 

1192
00:57:14,320 --> 00:57:16,320
Yeah? 
And Speaking of horses, there's 

1193
00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:19,280
an Otho Bracken. 
Of course Bracken, because of 

1194
00:57:19,280 --> 00:57:22,200
the brackens are horse sigil and
used to be horse breeders. 

1195
00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:25,280
Back in the day, there was an 
Emperor Otho, same spelling. 

1196
00:57:25,280 --> 00:57:27,640
So that might be a might be a 
little parallel there. 

1197
00:57:27,640 --> 00:57:29,560
It might be a little miniature 
inspiration. 

1198
00:57:29,800 --> 00:57:31,800
As far as I know, Emperor Otho 
didn't have anything to do 

1199
00:57:31,800 --> 00:57:34,160
special with horses, but I'm 
sure he rode one. 

1200
00:57:35,240 --> 00:57:37,200
He was an emperor. 
Yeah, all right. 

1201
00:57:37,200 --> 00:57:40,680
That's our first half. 
So I wanted to take a moment for

1202
00:57:40,680 --> 00:57:44,840
our mid role today to talk to 
Y'all about a product that I 

1203
00:57:44,840 --> 00:57:48,080
really find super helpful. 
It's called RISE, that's Rise 

1204
00:57:48,080 --> 00:57:50,880
with AZ. 
It's an automatic time tracker 

1205
00:57:50,880 --> 00:57:53,880
that for me, you know, we work 
for ourselves, we're 

1206
00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:56,480
self-employed. 
It's to me this feels very 

1207
00:57:56,480 --> 00:57:58,680
manageable. 
It's not overwhelming or 

1208
00:57:58,680 --> 00:58:01,000
invasive. 
It's really meant to be 

1209
00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:05,600
implemented on a personal level.
It really absolutely improved my

1210
00:58:05,600 --> 00:58:08,680
focus and work habits. 
It gave me some really much 

1211
00:58:08,680 --> 00:58:13,320
needed perspective on just how 
much time I actually spend on 

1212
00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:16,960
various work tasks, which is 
honestly something I struggle 

1213
00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:18,840
with a lot. 
Me too. 

1214
00:58:18,840 --> 00:58:21,480
I really have that problem 
because I've been self-employed 

1215
00:58:21,480 --> 00:58:25,280
for so long. 
I work at home some it's. 

1216
00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:29,560
I have a poor ability to 
separate my work and my regular 

1217
00:58:29,560 --> 00:58:31,880
life. 
I will go jump back and forth 

1218
00:58:31,880 --> 00:58:35,760
from writing an episode to 
reading something for fun on the

1219
00:58:35,760 --> 00:58:37,400
drop of a hat. 
And it's a terrible habit. 

1220
00:58:37,560 --> 00:58:40,600
Rise has really kept me focused 
because if I switch tabs and 

1221
00:58:40,600 --> 00:58:43,760
start reading something that's 
not considered work, it won't 

1222
00:58:43,840 --> 00:58:45,080
just give me a friendly 
reminder. 

1223
00:58:45,080 --> 00:58:46,880
I'll be like, Are you sure you 
want to do this right now and be

1224
00:58:46,880 --> 00:58:49,240
like, Yep, I thank you, go back 
to my work. 

1225
00:58:49,440 --> 00:58:52,040
It is absolutely helped improve 
my focus. 

1226
00:58:52,240 --> 00:58:55,440
Shay and I've been using this 
app for months now and we're 

1227
00:58:55,440 --> 00:58:59,280
finally ready to talk about it 
because we, you know, reached 

1228
00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:01,320
out to them and and worked out a
little deal. 

1229
00:59:01,520 --> 00:59:08,680
Yeah, so if you go to Rise with 
ZERIZE dot IO/U Westeros and you

1230
00:59:08,680 --> 00:59:12,360
use the code Westeros, you can 
get 25% off your first three 

1231
00:59:12,360 --> 00:59:14,560
months. 
But that's not all, because 

1232
00:59:14,560 --> 00:59:16,640
we're also doing a little bit of
a giveaway here. 

1233
00:59:16,640 --> 00:59:19,960
They allowed us to give away a 
couple of lifetime memberships, 

1234
00:59:20,160 --> 00:59:23,400
which is a great deal on a 
lifetime membership. 

1235
00:59:23,400 --> 00:59:25,280
Like, that's awesome if you 
e-mail 

1236
00:59:25,280 --> 00:59:30,320
westeroshistorygiveaway@gmail.com
with the e-mail you'd like to 

1237
00:59:30,320 --> 00:59:33,880
use the account with, or just 
include the preferred e-mail in 

1238
00:59:33,880 --> 00:59:36,960
your message. 
We are going to give away two 

1239
00:59:36,960 --> 00:59:40,120
lifetime memberships and we're 
going to close the giveaway on 

1240
00:59:40,120 --> 00:59:43,200
May 1st, so we'll give you all a
nice big window. 

1241
00:59:43,200 --> 00:59:45,600
Just send us an e-mail if you 
want to try this out and get a 

1242
00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:48,000
lifetime membership. 
If you don't want to wait until 

1243
00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:51,600
May 1st, you can use our code 
Westeros. 

1244
00:59:52,640 --> 00:59:55,160
The information is visually on 
the screen for you all now too, 

1245
00:59:55,160 --> 00:59:58,200
and in the description. 
I really hope you try it because

1246
00:59:58,200 --> 01:00:01,080
I I mean I cannot tell you 
enough how much more productive 

1247
01:00:01,200 --> 01:00:03,720
I am now. 
It's it's really like life 

1248
01:00:03,720 --> 01:00:05,160
changing. 
Yeah, Shay and I have been 

1249
01:00:05,160 --> 01:00:08,240
really big on improving our 
productivity this year a lot. 

1250
01:00:08,240 --> 01:00:10,880
A couple of the sponsors we've 
had this year have been geared 

1251
01:00:10,880 --> 01:00:14,600
towards that and this one is 
perhaps the most impactful 

1252
01:00:14,600 --> 01:00:19,120
because it's it's it's very 
direct, it's telling us, you 

1253
01:00:19,120 --> 01:00:21,960
know just stay focused and 
reminding us to stay focused. 

1254
01:00:21,960 --> 01:00:25,280
Helping me with something that 
I'm not great at and it's not 

1255
01:00:25,280 --> 01:00:27,880
invasive, it's just like, OK, I 
tell I'm ready to work now and 

1256
01:00:27,880 --> 01:00:30,240
then it keeps me on track and 
when I'm done working, I turn it

1257
01:00:30,240 --> 01:00:32,840
off and then it's doesn't remind
me of anything. 

1258
01:00:33,040 --> 01:00:35,840
I'll tell you, I tried a few 
other tech time tracking type 

1259
01:00:35,840 --> 01:00:39,760
software before I I came across 
RISE and a lot of them are just 

1260
01:00:39,760 --> 01:00:44,280
so geared towards like corporate
and like you have a boss who is 

1261
01:00:44,280 --> 01:00:47,120
managing it and they just but it
didn't work for me. 

1262
01:00:47,120 --> 01:00:49,040
Frankly. 
Like I I tried a lot and I think

1263
01:00:49,040 --> 01:00:52,920
RISE, if you're doing this on a 
small scale for yourself, it's 

1264
01:00:52,920 --> 01:00:55,520
the way to go. 
Yeah, so that's rise dot IO dot 

1265
01:00:55,520 --> 01:01:00,960
slash U slash Westeros, Westeros
code for 25% off or an e-mail 

1266
01:01:00,960 --> 01:01:03,800
westeroshistorygiveaway@gmail.com
if you'd like to enter the 

1267
01:01:03,800 --> 01:01:07,160
drawing for the lifetime 
membership, which that's 

1268
01:01:07,160 --> 01:01:10,200
valuable. 
Also want to shout out my Friday

1269
01:01:10,200 --> 01:01:12,160
Twitch streams? 
I rarely mention them, but they 

1270
01:01:12,160 --> 01:01:14,720
happen almost every Friday. 
We had a lot of fun playing 

1271
01:01:14,720 --> 01:01:17,120
Malice the Monstrous taking over
the Seven Kingdoms. 

1272
01:01:17,120 --> 01:01:19,440
We won the war against 
Targaryens. 

1273
01:01:19,440 --> 01:01:23,920
I executed Egon the 5th and took
his wife as my own. 

1274
01:01:24,440 --> 01:01:27,800
Malice the Monstrous is sadistic
so I role play my characters. 

1275
01:01:27,800 --> 01:01:30,320
So I have to be a cruel jerk 
psychopath. 

1276
01:01:30,560 --> 01:01:34,000
And now Malice has passed and 
his son Mainar who is also 

1277
01:01:34,000 --> 01:01:38,640
sadistic like father like son. 
He's married to Mina Tyrell and 

1278
01:01:38,960 --> 01:01:42,000
doesn't have a child yet, so 
whether or not this dynasty will

1279
01:01:42,040 --> 01:01:44,880
last is up in the air every 
Friday at six Eastern. 

1280
01:01:44,880 --> 01:01:47,800
We play twitch.tv/history of 
Westeros. 

1281
01:01:47,880 --> 01:01:52,560
I found this quote while digging
into this topic that we're 

1282
01:01:52,600 --> 01:01:55,480
talking about today and it 
doesn't relate all that much, 

1283
01:01:55,520 --> 01:01:57,600
but it does a little bit and I 
definitely wanted to share it. 

1284
01:01:57,600 --> 01:02:00,400
So here we go. 
This is from questions he was 

1285
01:02:00,400 --> 01:02:05,000
asked about wild cards in 2008. 
Well, we played in Walter John 

1286
01:02:05,000 --> 01:02:10,000
Williams's Rome game Gerps for a
decade or more, but Walter 

1287
01:02:10,000 --> 01:02:13,720
hasn't been running that lately.
More recently, we're playing a 

1288
01:02:13,720 --> 01:02:18,400
space game run by Ty Frank, 
which uses AD 20 system. 

1289
01:02:18,640 --> 01:02:23,040
Ty's game is great fun, but 
frankly I don't like D20 nearly 

1290
01:02:23,040 --> 01:02:25,400
as much as Gerps. 
OK, first of all Gerps, if you 

1291
01:02:25,400 --> 01:02:28,480
haven't heard of it, is stands 
for Generic Universal 

1292
01:02:28,480 --> 01:02:31,680
role-playing system. 
I've played it not recently, but

1293
01:02:31,680 --> 01:02:34,000
I have played it and it's just a
yeah, it's a it's a it's a 

1294
01:02:34,360 --> 01:02:37,720
role-playing system designed to 
fit any style campaign whether 

1295
01:02:37,720 --> 01:02:40,000
fantasy, sci-fi, whatever you 
can you can fit it to anything 

1296
01:02:40,000 --> 01:02:42,680
And that was the idea. 
I I don't think it's around that

1297
01:02:42,680 --> 01:02:44,280
much anymore. 
But maybe, maybe it isn't. 

1298
01:02:44,280 --> 01:02:47,320
I just don't know it. 
But of course the space game run

1299
01:02:47,320 --> 01:02:50,920
by Ty Frank, that's The Expanse.
Before it became novels, it was 

1300
01:02:50,920 --> 01:02:54,440
a role-playing campaign and 
there you go, proto version. 

1301
01:02:54,560 --> 01:02:57,160
How cool is that? 
And of course Rome Gerps. 

1302
01:02:57,160 --> 01:03:00,920
That's that's why I discovered 
this quote, because apparently 

1303
01:03:00,920 --> 01:03:04,280
this Walter John Williams guy 
was running a generic universal 

1304
01:03:04,280 --> 01:03:05,760
role-playing system in ancient 
Rome. 

1305
01:03:05,760 --> 01:03:08,640
And that sounds pretty sweet. 
TK OK Podcast Network, sends a 

1306
01:03:08,640 --> 01:03:11,680
super chat and says What is 
Sean's favorite Rome centric 

1307
01:03:11,680 --> 01:03:13,600
movie? 
The first couple that pop into 

1308
01:03:13,600 --> 01:03:17,200
mind are like, oh, gladiator, 
maybe Spartacus. 

1309
01:03:17,200 --> 01:03:20,200
No, no, no, no. 
Monty Python's The Life of 

1310
01:03:20,200 --> 01:03:21,880
Brian. 
Hands down. 

1311
01:03:21,880 --> 01:03:25,160
Definitely my favorite one. 
Absolutely the same too, apart 

1312
01:03:25,160 --> 01:03:27,960
from the roads, They're 
aqueduct, they're education. 

1313
01:03:28,320 --> 01:03:30,160
What have the Romans ever done? 
For what else? 

1314
01:03:32,560 --> 01:03:34,240
There's this. 
People's Front of Judea. 

1315
01:03:35,280 --> 01:03:37,960
The scene where he's painting, 
where he's doing graffiti, 

1316
01:03:37,960 --> 01:03:40,200
Romans go home and he's like, 
and the guy catches him, he's 

1317
01:03:40,200 --> 01:03:41,400
like, what are you writing 
there? 

1318
01:03:41,400 --> 01:03:44,000
This is, this is Romans go home.
This is no, it doesn't. 

1319
01:03:44,760 --> 01:03:49,400
He corrects his grammar. 
I write it 1000 times. 

1320
01:03:52,880 --> 01:03:55,560
I think about. 
I think about Rome twice a day 

1321
01:03:55,560 --> 01:03:59,880
because I think a Life of Brian.
He's not. 

1322
01:03:59,880 --> 01:04:03,000
Now Life of Brian is also a very
good parallel to Dune. 

1323
01:04:03,000 --> 01:04:05,800
It takes place in the desert and
it's about you shouldn't be the 

1324
01:04:05,800 --> 01:04:08,520
Messiah. 
You know he's not the Messiah. 

1325
01:04:08,520 --> 01:04:11,720
He's a very naughty boy. 
And it has that same line where 

1326
01:04:11,720 --> 01:04:14,480
he's like, I'm not the Messiah. 
Only the true Messiah would 

1327
01:04:14,480 --> 01:04:17,840
divide would deny his divinity. 
All right, I am the Messiah. 

1328
01:04:18,080 --> 01:04:21,400
He is the Messiah. 
Yep. 

1329
01:04:21,680 --> 01:04:23,440
All right, enough Life of Brian 
quotes. 

1330
01:04:23,440 --> 01:04:24,640
I would do it. 
We would. 

1331
01:04:24,680 --> 01:04:25,960
Sean and I would just do this 
all day. 

1332
01:04:25,960 --> 01:04:26,880
But. 
But we have more. 

1333
01:04:26,880 --> 01:04:27,880
Jokes. 
I got to get one. 

1334
01:04:27,880 --> 01:04:29,320
I gotta tell you, it's one of my
favorite. 

1335
01:04:29,360 --> 01:04:30,760
Funniest OK, not enough like 
Brian? 

1336
01:04:30,760 --> 01:04:33,320
Here's one. 
More film in history when he's 

1337
01:04:33,320 --> 01:04:36,720
when he's got this huge crowd 
gathered out of his outside his 

1338
01:04:36,720 --> 01:04:39,200
house and his mom's mad at him 
making these people go away and 

1339
01:04:39,200 --> 01:04:41,000
he's trying to convince him he's
not the Messiah. 

1340
01:04:41,000 --> 01:04:43,760
You don't need me, You don't 
need anyone. 

1341
01:04:43,960 --> 01:04:47,360
You're all individuals and the 
whole crowd, in unison, 

1342
01:04:47,360 --> 01:04:51,320
responds. 
Yes, we're all individuals and 

1343
01:04:51,320 --> 01:04:56,640
one guy's like, I'm not. 
Everyone's like, it's so good, 

1344
01:04:56,800 --> 01:04:59,360
Anthony de Palma sends a 
comment, says. 

1345
01:04:59,360 --> 01:05:02,920
I wonder if George thinks SPQR, 
which means Senate people. 

1346
01:05:02,960 --> 01:05:05,200
People of Rome. 
It's not an actual acronym. 

1347
01:05:05,200 --> 01:05:06,600
That's the that's the mistake I 
made. 

1348
01:05:06,800 --> 01:05:09,040
But anyway, probably is for. 
For for Latin, yes. 

1349
01:05:09,440 --> 01:05:11,440
It's Latin. 
It's sent it to his populist 

1350
01:05:11,560 --> 01:05:12,800
romance. 
OK. 

1351
01:05:12,880 --> 01:05:16,040
I don't know. 
Anyway, Anthony Palma suggested.

1352
01:05:16,040 --> 01:05:19,240
Maybe it stands for Scorching 
Prince Quentin's rectum, or 

1353
01:05:19,360 --> 01:05:21,760
still plotting carthine 
regicide. 

1354
01:05:21,760 --> 01:05:27,280
Or Stannis prohibits questioning
relor or silly pretty queer 

1355
01:05:27,280 --> 01:05:30,880
recalio. 
Or Seriously, please quit 

1356
01:05:31,160 --> 01:05:35,040
reminding me to finish wins. 
Yeah, good one, Anthony. 

1357
01:05:35,040 --> 01:05:38,280
That's got us a good laughing 
both when we first read it and 

1358
01:05:38,280 --> 01:05:40,600
now again when we're reading it 
live on the episode. 

1359
01:05:40,600 --> 01:05:44,720
Let's talk about the stabbings. 
Yes, the stabbings are a great 

1360
01:05:45,240 --> 01:05:48,800
parallel in A Song of Ice and 
Fire to Rome. 

1361
01:05:48,880 --> 01:05:53,960
Here is another quote from 
George from the year 2001. 2000 

1362
01:05:53,960 --> 01:05:58,240
years after the assassination of
Julius Caesar, people are still 

1363
01:05:58,240 --> 01:06:01,160
debating whether or not that was
an honorable act. 

1364
01:06:01,400 --> 01:06:05,480
Dante put Brutus and Cassius in 
the lowest level of hell for 

1365
01:06:05,480 --> 01:06:08,440
what they did right next to 
Judas Iscariot. 

1366
01:06:08,800 --> 01:06:12,840
But Shakespeare wrote that 
Brutus was, quote, the noblest 

1367
01:06:12,840 --> 01:06:15,960
Roman of them all. 
So argue on. 

1368
01:06:16,640 --> 01:06:19,400
And I suppose the pizza place 
Noble Romans would agree with 

1369
01:06:19,400 --> 01:06:23,240
Shakespeare, but you never know.
Yeah, what is? 

1370
01:06:23,680 --> 01:06:26,280
Little Caesar's saying two 
different pizza places named 

1371
01:06:26,280 --> 01:06:29,720
after the Roman Empire or Roman.
It's probably more than that 

1372
01:06:29,720 --> 01:06:31,720
too. 
Just two famous ones, at least. 

1373
01:06:32,080 --> 01:06:33,960
Obviously, Domino, Emperor, 
Domino. 

1374
01:06:34,360 --> 01:06:36,520
Domino Domician. 
There's some ones that sound 

1375
01:06:36,520 --> 01:06:39,120
kind of like Domino. 
We all know Pop, Pope John, 

1376
01:06:39,880 --> 01:06:41,480
Papa. 
Where does the word domino 

1377
01:06:41,480 --> 01:06:42,880
originate? 
Is that a Latin word? 

1378
01:06:42,880 --> 01:06:44,760
I don't know. 
Sounds like Dominus, but I I 

1379
01:06:44,760 --> 01:06:46,240
guess, I bet it is. 
Yeah, it sounds like. 

1380
01:06:46,240 --> 01:06:47,720
Dominant Domino. 
Domino. 

1381
01:06:47,720 --> 01:06:50,800
I mean they say Domino is a 
title and means master or 

1382
01:06:50,800 --> 01:06:53,520
mistress. 
Yeah, so Caesar's assassination 

1383
01:06:53,520 --> 01:06:58,160
is quite possibly the most 
famous assassination of all time

1384
01:06:58,640 --> 01:07:02,240
and John's killing is pretty 
damn famous in fiction too. 

1385
01:07:02,440 --> 01:07:06,160
Interestingly, Caesar's death is
probably the world's first post 

1386
01:07:06,160 --> 01:07:10,040
mortem. 
Like discussed what killed them 

1387
01:07:10,040 --> 01:07:11,840
and how, how it killed, you 
know, things like that, all the 

1388
01:07:11,840 --> 01:07:13,720
things that go into a post 
mortem John stabbing. 

1389
01:07:13,720 --> 01:07:16,360
Well, we don't argue whether it 
was justified, but we do try to 

1390
01:07:16,360 --> 01:07:18,640
imagine the position other 
people nights watch were put in 

1391
01:07:18,640 --> 01:07:20,640
and try to put ourselves in 
their shoes and see why they did

1392
01:07:20,640 --> 01:07:22,400
it. 
Now, later in the episode, as I 

1393
01:07:22,400 --> 01:07:24,240
said at the beginning, we're 
going to talk about the TV show 

1394
01:07:24,240 --> 01:07:26,080
Rome a little bit. 
But for now I'll remind you all 

1395
01:07:26,080 --> 01:07:30,360
that Kieran Hines played both 
Mance Raider and Julius Caesar. 

1396
01:07:30,520 --> 01:07:33,160
Caesar was killed in part 
because he was making a lot of 

1397
01:07:33,160 --> 01:07:34,720
changes that Rome was 
uncomfortable with. 

1398
01:07:35,600 --> 01:07:36,680
Some of these will be very 
familiar. 

1399
01:07:36,680 --> 01:07:38,200
John was doing some of the same 
things. 

1400
01:07:38,480 --> 01:07:42,240
Yeah, I think that that was like
the one thing that Caesar wasn't

1401
01:07:42,240 --> 01:07:45,280
supposed to do if you that's 
that's going too far is crossing

1402
01:07:45,280 --> 01:07:47,200
Rubicon. 
Yeah, It was illegal to bring 

1403
01:07:47,200 --> 01:07:49,600
your army across that border. 
Yeah, Yeah. 

1404
01:07:50,280 --> 01:07:53,360
And and I feel like that's like 
the one thing the Wall is 

1405
01:07:53,360 --> 01:07:55,520
supposed to do is keep the free 
folk out. 

1406
01:07:55,560 --> 01:07:58,480
And he brought him across like 
they could put up with a lot of 

1407
01:07:58,480 --> 01:08:00,080
other stuff. 
But that was. 

1408
01:08:00,840 --> 01:08:03,320
Yeah, that's a good point. 
Now that didn't directly into 

1409
01:08:03,360 --> 01:08:05,720
his his assassination, but it it
started the chain of events. 

1410
01:08:05,720 --> 01:08:08,880
It was the first thing he did 
that had he not done that, he 

1411
01:08:08,880 --> 01:08:10,880
might have just been executed or
or exiled. 

1412
01:08:10,880 --> 01:08:13,680
So that was kind of why he did 
it from his perspective. 

1413
01:08:13,760 --> 01:08:15,560
Yeah, same thing with Caesar. 
It's not like you cross the 

1414
01:08:15,560 --> 01:08:17,080
Rubicon and then the eggs out 
him. 

1415
01:08:17,399 --> 01:08:20,359
It was just a piece of the 
things that were happening, 

1416
01:08:20,359 --> 01:08:24,319
which were basically all the 
sort of standards and 

1417
01:08:24,319 --> 01:08:27,680
expectations and traditions or 
whatever that have been 

1418
01:08:27,680 --> 01:08:30,439
established. 
He was chipping away at him, but

1419
01:08:30,439 --> 01:08:34,319
that was the most clear, 
physical, obvious crossing in 

1420
01:08:34,319 --> 01:08:35,399
the Rubicon. 
Thing. 

1421
01:08:35,399 --> 01:08:38,920
Same thing. 
Just imagine the Watchmen, the 

1422
01:08:39,520 --> 01:08:42,279
brothers of the Watch, 
witnessing these people that 

1423
01:08:42,279 --> 01:08:44,479
they've been fighting. 
They're just walking in, just 

1424
01:08:44,479 --> 01:08:47,399
walking in like, you know, like,
even if it there's all sorts of,

1425
01:08:47,399 --> 01:08:49,960
you know, prejudices and whatnot
behind that. 

1426
01:08:49,960 --> 01:08:52,720
You know, again, like Martin 
wants to do is put us in our 

1427
01:08:52,720 --> 01:08:55,160
shoes. 
Like we want to root for John, 

1428
01:08:55,160 --> 01:08:57,080
'cause we're more in his shoes 
than anyone else. 

1429
01:08:57,160 --> 01:08:59,359
He's our POV. 
But when you put yourself in 

1430
01:08:59,359 --> 01:09:01,920
someone else's shoes, if Martin 
had written APOV of a couple of 

1431
01:09:01,920 --> 01:09:05,560
those nights, Watchmen who just 
would have been aghast at what 

1432
01:09:05,560 --> 01:09:07,279
was happening here. 
Some of those would have been 

1433
01:09:07,279 --> 01:09:09,399
people that killed some of their
friends, You know, like they're 

1434
01:09:09,399 --> 01:09:11,040
they're, it's hard for them to 
look at the bigger picture, 

1435
01:09:11,040 --> 01:09:13,520
'cause it's very personal and 
and like you said, it's been 

1436
01:09:13,520 --> 01:09:16,359
that way for thousands of years.
John is breaking violating 

1437
01:09:16,359 --> 01:09:18,680
something that's been in place 
for so long that the the prime 

1438
01:09:18,680 --> 01:09:21,160
directive of the watch. 
So there's other parallels too, 

1439
01:09:21,160 --> 01:09:24,080
though. 
Some people thought Caesar would

1440
01:09:24,080 --> 01:09:28,120
make himself king. 
Now the watch had a similar 

1441
01:09:28,120 --> 01:09:29,439
fear. 
They were all they were 

1442
01:09:29,439 --> 01:09:31,760
concerned both over King Stannis
and who. 

1443
01:09:31,760 --> 01:09:34,279
John gave too many concessions 
to too many broken traditions 

1444
01:09:34,279 --> 01:09:36,960
along that as well. 
And maybe some of them thought 

1445
01:09:36,960 --> 01:09:40,240
he would make himself king too, 
like John himself, like Knights 

1446
01:09:40,240 --> 01:09:44,040
King did way back in the day. 
And he was acting a lot more 

1447
01:09:44,040 --> 01:09:47,080
like a Lord than a Lord 
commander in a lot of ways. 

1448
01:09:47,080 --> 01:09:48,960
He was kind of. 
He wasn't getting consensus for 

1449
01:09:48,960 --> 01:09:51,680
a lot of his decisions. 
He was kind of just saying this 

1450
01:09:51,680 --> 01:09:54,000
is how it's going to be. 
And while we kind of agree with 

1451
01:09:54,000 --> 01:09:56,280
some of those decisions, we 
definitely have stated that 

1452
01:09:56,280 --> 01:09:58,600
this. 
He didn't go about it very well.

1453
01:09:58,600 --> 01:10:01,920
It was too authoritative. 
He need he should have tried to 

1454
01:10:01,920 --> 01:10:05,240
win over some more of his men 
and definitely not leave himself

1455
01:10:05,240 --> 01:10:06,840
exposed. 
And sending all his friends 

1456
01:10:06,840 --> 01:10:08,600
away, which Caesar kind of also 
did. 

1457
01:10:08,720 --> 01:10:11,640
He didn't send his friends away,
but Caesar didn't have a 

1458
01:10:11,640 --> 01:10:13,800
bodyguard like John. 
He relied on his intimidating 

1459
01:10:13,800 --> 01:10:15,560
friends, many of whom were 
veterans of his campaign. 

1460
01:10:15,560 --> 01:10:18,080
So they were scary people. 
They weren't, but they weren't 

1461
01:10:18,080 --> 01:10:20,360
allowed in the Senate House. 
You can't go in there if you're 

1462
01:10:20,360 --> 01:10:21,800
not a senator. 
And that's where they stabbed 

1463
01:10:21,800 --> 01:10:23,640
him because they knew that'd be 
the place where he wouldn't have

1464
01:10:23,640 --> 01:10:28,040
his guards. 
Now one of the issue, one of the

1465
01:10:28,040 --> 01:10:31,480
three major triggers for 
season's assassination was 

1466
01:10:31,480 --> 01:10:33,720
disrespecting the Senate. 
They gave him more honors. 

1467
01:10:33,840 --> 01:10:37,600
He didn't stand because he was 
like this is too many honors 

1468
01:10:37,600 --> 01:10:42,240
like so arguably he was doing it
because they were over over 

1469
01:10:42,960 --> 01:10:46,120
rewarding him over glorifying 
and he was like no too much but 

1470
01:10:46,120 --> 01:10:48,800
they saw it as an insult that he
didn't stand to accept these 

1471
01:10:48,800 --> 01:10:50,760
honors but also he gave more 
power to foreigners. 

1472
01:10:50,760 --> 01:10:53,200
It wasn't just letting crossing 
the Rubicon is is sort of two 

1473
01:10:53,200 --> 01:10:55,320
different examples or there's 
two different examples that 

1474
01:10:55,320 --> 01:10:57,120
parallel the the letting the 
free folk in. 

1475
01:10:57,600 --> 01:11:00,800
One is the one Sean said one is 
that he gave more powers to 

1476
01:11:00,800 --> 01:11:02,720
foreigners. 
He allowed there were Gaelic and

1477
01:11:02,720 --> 01:11:07,560
German and other foreigners 
given seats in the Senate and 

1478
01:11:07,560 --> 01:11:10,000
things like that and other 
leadership positions, which a 

1479
01:11:10,000 --> 01:11:13,840
lot of Romans, very conservative
traditions did not like that 

1480
01:11:14,440 --> 01:11:16,360
same as free folk. 
It's been this way forever. 

1481
01:11:16,560 --> 01:11:19,480
Not only did he let people in, 
he gave people like Leathers 

1482
01:11:20,320 --> 01:11:22,960
positions of authority. 
That guy's trading their 

1483
01:11:22,960 --> 01:11:25,320
recruits. 
Now that is very offensive to 

1484
01:11:25,520 --> 01:11:29,120
traditionalists. 
Even Caesar didn't let women 

1485
01:11:29,120 --> 01:11:32,520
into the Senate, right? 
Like like, put women on the 

1486
01:11:32,520 --> 01:11:34,200
wall, even. 
So, yeah, exactly. 

1487
01:11:34,200 --> 01:11:36,440
So there, yeah, he put, you're 
right, he put women, he he spear

1488
01:11:36,440 --> 01:11:37,360
wives. 
He was like, well, we need 

1489
01:11:37,360 --> 01:11:39,520
everyone we can get. 
And to him it's just just makes 

1490
01:11:39,520 --> 01:11:41,720
logistical sense. 
To us, it's the same. 

1491
01:11:41,720 --> 01:11:44,520
But to them, it's like we've 
never done this before. 

1492
01:11:44,520 --> 01:11:47,280
Women, We can't count on them. 
Like what if they stab us in the

1493
01:11:47,280 --> 01:11:47,840
back? 
What if we. 

1494
01:11:47,840 --> 01:11:50,200
What if they run away at at a 
crucial time? 

1495
01:11:50,200 --> 01:11:52,280
You know, they're just, they 
have all these prejudices. 

1496
01:11:55,160 --> 01:11:58,200
Hey, well, imagine that. 
So, yeah, so they see them as 

1497
01:11:58,200 --> 01:12:00,040
savages. 
They see the not only are they 

1498
01:12:00,040 --> 01:12:03,640
the enemies, but they also see 
them as lower a lower people. 

1499
01:12:03,640 --> 01:12:06,000
They're not as cultured, not as 
civilized, which is exactly how 

1500
01:12:06,000 --> 01:12:08,520
the Romans saw these Gauls. 
And Germans are like, oh, 

1501
01:12:08,520 --> 01:12:12,520
they're not, they have long hair
and they smell bad and blah blah

1502
01:12:12,520 --> 01:12:14,400
blah. 
You know, just stuff that's very

1503
01:12:14,400 --> 01:12:18,120
just personal opinion, you know,
not really. 

1504
01:12:18,160 --> 01:12:19,720
One isn't actually better than 
the other. 

1505
01:12:19,720 --> 01:12:22,960
It's just they're very strict 
preferences. 

1506
01:12:23,280 --> 01:12:27,040
And even if maybe some of these 
decisions, you might see the 

1507
01:12:27,040 --> 01:12:31,800
logic behind him. 
And maybe even if you can see 

1508
01:12:31,800 --> 01:12:34,280
that he's got the authority to 
do this, whether you're talking 

1509
01:12:34,280 --> 01:12:37,640
about John or Season, it still 
gets you thinking along the 

1510
01:12:37,640 --> 01:12:42,160
lines of what next? 
If he'll do this, what else 

1511
01:12:42,160 --> 01:12:44,640
would he do? 
You know, and like the idea that

1512
01:12:44,640 --> 01:12:47,080
you're worried you're comparing 
the idea that he might like, 

1513
01:12:47,080 --> 01:12:51,840
seize king like power there. 
It's not crazy to think that he 

1514
01:12:51,840 --> 01:12:54,880
might take it to contingency to 
Winterfell. 

1515
01:12:55,080 --> 01:12:56,040
Wait he. 
Yeah. 

1516
01:12:56,040 --> 01:12:56,600
Yeah. 
OK. 

1517
01:12:56,640 --> 01:12:58,560
So yeah. 
Yeah, exactly Right. 

1518
01:12:58,600 --> 01:13:03,200
So it wasn't personal animosity,
Nina points out. 

1519
01:13:03,520 --> 01:13:05,880
In both cases, Brutus liked 
Caesar. 

1520
01:13:05,880 --> 01:13:09,120
He saw him as a father. 
And Bowen Marsh maybe didn't see

1521
01:13:09,120 --> 01:13:11,800
John as a son because obviously 
that the ages are flipped in 

1522
01:13:11,800 --> 01:13:14,840
this case. 
But he's crying when he does it.

1523
01:13:14,840 --> 01:13:17,160
There's tears pouring out of 
Bowen Marsh's eyes when he stabs

1524
01:13:17,160 --> 01:13:18,600
John. 
And that is not the man who is 

1525
01:13:18,600 --> 01:13:22,800
like, yay, let's do this, this 
is, I have no choice from his 

1526
01:13:22,800 --> 01:13:26,040
perspective, right. 
And Nina writes the emotional 

1527
01:13:26,040 --> 01:13:29,280
toll that it took on him, that 
decision, the decision and the 

1528
01:13:29,280 --> 01:13:30,680
ACT itself. 
Yeah. 

1529
01:13:31,120 --> 01:13:35,240
And the consequences afterwards 
might be similar, because the 

1530
01:13:35,240 --> 01:13:37,360
assassination of Caesar did not 
really work out for the 

1531
01:13:37,360 --> 01:13:39,400
senators. 
They didn't reverse his changes,

1532
01:13:39,400 --> 01:13:40,880
they didn't restore the 
Republic. 

1533
01:13:41,200 --> 01:13:44,160
And a lot of it ended up dead, 
thanks to Caesar's friends and 

1534
01:13:44,160 --> 01:13:47,320
his popularity and and the the 
transfer of power to people like

1535
01:13:47,320 --> 01:13:52,800
Marc Anthony who who riled up 
the the the crowds and made 

1536
01:13:52,800 --> 01:13:55,000
people remember how Caesar was 
so good to them. 

1537
01:13:55,000 --> 01:13:59,360
And war started back up again. 
The 2nd triumvirate happened. 

1538
01:13:59,360 --> 01:14:02,240
Anthony, Octavian, Lepidus, all 
sorts of stuff happened. 

1539
01:14:02,320 --> 01:14:05,760
Now it won't be so big in terms 
of the entire nation going to 

1540
01:14:05,760 --> 01:14:09,760
war over John's death but it is 
a reasonable guide for what will

1541
01:14:09,760 --> 01:14:11,840
happen in the aftermath of John 
stabbing. 

1542
01:14:11,840 --> 01:14:15,160
The conspirators won't be hailed
as heroes by not by everyone. 

1543
01:14:15,160 --> 01:14:19,600
Some people will say good job. 
But the free folk, John's 

1544
01:14:19,600 --> 01:14:21,960
friends, No, that's good. 
You could see it immediately 

1545
01:14:21,960 --> 01:14:24,600
turned to blood and someone 
they're going to see it as a 

1546
01:14:24,600 --> 01:14:26,720
villainous act. 
Some some of the nights watch 

1547
01:14:26,720 --> 01:14:29,800
will say, hey it had to be done.
But we don't know what's going 

1548
01:14:29,800 --> 01:14:33,040
to happen by the time it's all 
said and done, when the scene is

1549
01:14:33,040 --> 01:14:36,280
done, when more has passed, we 
might find ourselves with more 

1550
01:14:36,280 --> 01:14:38,320
parallels to the assassination 
of Caesar. 

1551
01:14:38,960 --> 01:14:42,720
Because frankly we're still in 
the midst of this still you 

1552
01:14:42,720 --> 01:14:45,040
know, like the book John's final
chapter. 

1553
01:14:45,040 --> 01:14:46,880
Like we don't know what what 
comes afterwards. 

1554
01:14:47,000 --> 01:14:48,600
But it's pretty interesting 
right? 

1555
01:14:49,080 --> 01:14:51,840
Like the end of the Roman 
Republic came not long after the

1556
01:14:51,840 --> 01:14:54,440
death of Caesar. 
Is this gonna be the end of the 

1557
01:14:54,440 --> 01:14:57,160
wall or the watch as we know it 
at the end of following the 

1558
01:14:57,160 --> 01:14:58,440
death of John? 
What do you think, Sean? 

1559
01:14:58,720 --> 01:15:01,720
It was the end of the Roman 
Republic, but just the beginning

1560
01:15:01,720 --> 01:15:03,720
of the Roman Empire. 
Right, right. 

1561
01:15:04,280 --> 01:15:06,000
Yes. 
I don't know if the Wall is 

1562
01:15:06,000 --> 01:15:10,080
gonna become the Roman Empire, 
but you know John John maybe 

1563
01:15:10,080 --> 01:15:13,800
become some sort of supreme 
leader of Westeros or whether 

1564
01:15:13,800 --> 01:15:17,000
it's to get troops to fight off 
the. 

1565
01:15:17,720 --> 01:15:20,760
Is he king in the North? 
But, but he, you know, you could

1566
01:15:20,760 --> 01:15:23,960
see him ending up in some very 
powerful position if he leads an

1567
01:15:23,960 --> 01:15:27,600
army, especially the coalition 
of an army, including wildlings 

1568
01:15:27,600 --> 01:15:31,080
or whatever, against the others.
But but you know, maybe the the 

1569
01:15:31,080 --> 01:15:34,800
North maybe mobilizes its 
military in general and becomes 

1570
01:15:34,800 --> 01:15:37,320
more powerful and especially if 
the South doesn't support them 

1571
01:15:37,320 --> 01:15:40,240
once the war is over and they 
need to go deal with, I don't 

1572
01:15:40,240 --> 01:15:43,560
know, Cersei or Danny. 
Yeah, it's hard to say, but. 

1573
01:15:44,200 --> 01:15:45,440
Not just strong parallel, 
because you're right. 

1574
01:15:45,440 --> 01:15:47,840
If like they tried to, they 
tried to stop Caesar from 

1575
01:15:47,840 --> 01:15:50,200
becoming king by killing him and
ended up starting the empire and

1576
01:15:50,200 --> 01:15:51,600
they created an emperor out of 
that. 

1577
01:15:51,920 --> 01:15:54,440
They tried to stop John and he's
going to maybe become king in 

1578
01:15:54,440 --> 01:15:57,040
the north after he rises so that
that parallel could be even 

1579
01:15:57,040 --> 01:16:00,200
deeper than I first realized. 
There's also some, like magical 

1580
01:16:00,320 --> 01:16:04,080
parallels here. 
There's post facto omens 

1581
01:16:04,080 --> 01:16:05,600
assigned to the day of Caesar's 
death. 

1582
01:16:05,600 --> 01:16:08,640
Like, oh, his wife had a dream 
there was a skull. 

1583
01:16:08,800 --> 01:16:11,400
Even the TV show Rome had some 
birds fly like a skull. 

1584
01:16:11,400 --> 01:16:14,600
There was all this stuff that 
said after the fact, supposedly 

1585
01:16:14,600 --> 01:16:16,440
actually happened before. 
Probably not. 

1586
01:16:16,880 --> 01:16:18,640
I guess it's possible, but I 
would guess no. 

1587
01:16:18,640 --> 01:16:21,800
Also, after the fact, any of 
these things you can attach, 

1588
01:16:21,840 --> 01:16:24,520
like if it didn't happen, these 
different omens would have been 

1589
01:16:24,520 --> 01:16:27,120
completely ignored. 
It's only once it matters that 

1590
01:16:27,120 --> 01:16:28,520
you try to attach meaning to 
them. 

1591
01:16:28,520 --> 01:16:30,760
We had 100 omens that day. 
This is the one that actually 

1592
01:16:30,760 --> 01:16:31,360
happened. 
Yeah. 

1593
01:16:31,520 --> 01:16:35,080
So we threw out the other 99 but
John had was basically ignored 

1594
01:16:35,080 --> 01:16:38,840
Melisandre's daggers in the dark
warning which is pretty similar 

1595
01:16:38,840 --> 01:16:41,520
and especially cause both 
assassinations were yes done 

1596
01:16:41,760 --> 01:16:45,960
with daggers so which that parts
not so weird but not the 

1597
01:16:45,960 --> 01:16:48,160
strongest part of the parallel 
but it is yet another parallel 

1598
01:16:48,320 --> 01:16:50,680
so that's pretty cool. 
That's a big one and like I said

1599
01:16:50,680 --> 01:16:54,920
there could be more to it. 
Once more of John's story plays 

1600
01:16:54,920 --> 01:16:57,680
out let's move on to Rome and 
Slaver's Bay. 

1601
01:16:57,960 --> 01:17:00,840
With Rome as Valyria it might be
tempting to see Carthage as 

1602
01:17:00,840 --> 01:17:02,960
Slaver's Bay. 
There's a lot and there is and 

1603
01:17:02,960 --> 01:17:05,160
that is indeed a rich vein of 
parallel. 

1604
01:17:05,160 --> 01:17:09,360
The Punic wars between Carthage 
and and Rome have a lot of 

1605
01:17:09,360 --> 01:17:11,800
similarities between the the 
wars between Valyria and 

1606
01:17:11,800 --> 01:17:14,520
Slaver's Bay. 
A good example of a false Roman 

1607
01:17:14,520 --> 01:17:18,040
story comes to us here. 
It said that Rome sowed the 

1608
01:17:18,040 --> 01:17:21,000
fertile lands of Carthage with 
salt after conquering them after

1609
01:17:21,000 --> 01:17:23,640
destroying them. 
But most modern scholars doubt 

1610
01:17:23,640 --> 01:17:27,760
this because salt was really 
expensive back then, really 

1611
01:17:27,760 --> 01:17:32,280
expensive, so this would have 
been extremely costly so not 

1612
01:17:32,280 --> 01:17:35,240
very likely to have happened. 
And George uses a line like that

1613
01:17:35,240 --> 01:17:38,920
though when describing what 
Valyria did to old gifts after 

1614
01:17:38,920 --> 01:17:41,200
defeating them. 
The fifth time, there were three

1615
01:17:41,720 --> 01:17:44,400
tunic wars between Rome and and 
Carthage. 

1616
01:17:44,400 --> 01:17:46,960
Rome won all three. 
There were five wars between 

1617
01:17:47,760 --> 01:17:51,200
Valyria and Slaver's Bay, and 
Valyria won all five of those. 

1618
01:17:51,200 --> 01:17:52,600
So you can see the parallels 
there. 

1619
01:17:52,840 --> 01:17:55,160
George again just made it a 
little bigger, adding two more 

1620
01:17:55,160 --> 01:17:57,720
on the top and throwing Dragons 
in there. 

1621
01:17:58,480 --> 01:18:01,840
And he said when Old Gifts was 
destroyed, just the city was 

1622
01:18:01,880 --> 01:18:04,720
annihilated by Valyria after 
that fifth one, which is what 

1623
01:18:04,720 --> 01:18:06,640
happened after the third one, 
Rome was like, we're not going 

1624
01:18:06,640 --> 01:18:08,080
to let this happen again. 
We're just going to destroy 

1625
01:18:08,080 --> 01:18:10,160
Carthage and this will never 
happen again. 

1626
01:18:10,160 --> 01:18:13,720
And that's obviously what 
Valyria did, George wrote the 

1627
01:18:13,720 --> 01:18:16,240
line. 
The very fields were sown with 

1628
01:18:16,240 --> 01:18:19,800
salt, sulfur and skulls, 
probably not the sulfur. 

1629
01:18:19,800 --> 01:18:22,240
And the skulls would have 
actually helped the the ground 

1630
01:18:22,520 --> 01:18:24,040
would have actually made the 
fields more fertile. 

1631
01:18:25,200 --> 01:18:27,040
There's a lot of salt and blood.
That's true. 

1632
01:18:27,040 --> 01:18:28,800
That's true. 
But there's probably a lot of 

1633
01:18:28,800 --> 01:18:31,360
other nitrates and carbon, 
everything else that the field 

1634
01:18:31,360 --> 01:18:35,560
needs as bodies decompose to. 
Now despite this Valyria, 

1635
01:18:36,000 --> 01:18:41,280
Carthage, Punic Wars, Slavers 
Bay, Rome parallel we Slaver's 

1636
01:18:41,280 --> 01:18:44,080
Bay is is very Roman influenced 
and since that's our folks 

1637
01:18:44,080 --> 01:18:47,640
today, we'll stick with that. 
And I guess to be fair, Carthage

1638
01:18:47,640 --> 01:18:51,000
was also very Roman influenced 
after Rome conquered them, just 

1639
01:18:51,040 --> 01:18:54,520
like how Valyria conquered 
Slaver's Bay and now everyone in

1640
01:18:55,040 --> 01:18:59,000
Slaver's Bay speaks Valyrian. 
So yes, they still have a lot of

1641
01:18:59,000 --> 01:19:01,800
their Giscari heritage, their 
traditions, the way they dress. 

1642
01:19:01,800 --> 01:19:06,560
But there's some undoubtedly 
Valyrian veneer over a lot of 

1643
01:19:06,560 --> 01:19:08,440
it. 
Weren't olive trees, Wasn't that

1644
01:19:08,680 --> 01:19:10,680
was that outside Marine? 
Yes. 

1645
01:19:10,800 --> 01:19:12,280
Yes, olive trees. 
That's another. 

1646
01:19:12,280 --> 01:19:15,080
That's a big. 
I think Mediterranean food 

1647
01:19:15,080 --> 01:19:16,640
stuff. 
Anyway, yeah, so that's that's 

1648
01:19:16,640 --> 01:19:18,280
meant to make us think of that. 
I I agree. 

1649
01:19:19,160 --> 01:19:21,600
A straightforward example, 
gladiatorial games. 

1650
01:19:22,120 --> 01:19:25,800
Now in A Song of Ice and Fire, 
they're not called gladiatorial 

1651
01:19:25,800 --> 01:19:26,520
games. 
There's no word. 

1652
01:19:26,520 --> 01:19:28,280
Gladiator does not exist as a 
term. 

1653
01:19:28,640 --> 01:19:30,720
Fighting pits and fit pit 
fighters do. 

1654
01:19:30,720 --> 01:19:34,360
However, Nina points out 
Dasmak's pit is very obviously 

1655
01:19:34,360 --> 01:19:36,160
drawing on classic Roman 
Colosseums. 

1656
01:19:36,520 --> 01:19:39,280
The lowest levels are reserved 
for the Emperor, senators and 

1657
01:19:39,280 --> 01:19:42,040
members of the equities class 
which is the the Knights. 

1658
01:19:42,200 --> 01:19:44,200
Basically Roman Knights 
equities. 

1659
01:19:44,720 --> 01:19:48,200
Danny even spots the graces in 
what seems to be a box opposite 

1660
01:19:48,200 --> 01:19:51,000
hers, just as the Roman Vestal 
Virgins were given pride of 

1661
01:19:51,000 --> 01:19:53,320
place in a box across from the 
Emperor's at the Coliseum. 

1662
01:19:53,520 --> 01:19:57,040
So even the layout of this das 
next pit is very similar to the 

1663
01:19:57,040 --> 01:19:58,680
way a Roman Colosseum would be 
done. 

1664
01:19:59,840 --> 01:20:01,680
And yes, the and the Graces. 
Don't forget, a lot of the 

1665
01:20:01,680 --> 01:20:04,880
Graces are virgins. 
So even that part is similar. 

1666
01:20:05,360 --> 01:20:08,040
Legion. 
The word legion comes from the 

1667
01:20:08,040 --> 01:20:11,080
Latin Legio, and the meaning has
changed over time, but basically

1668
01:20:11,080 --> 01:20:13,240
it's the largest military unit 
in the Roman army. 

1669
01:20:13,440 --> 01:20:16,000
The term apparently existed 
prior to the Roman Republic, 

1670
01:20:16,000 --> 01:20:18,480
like back in the days of when 
Rome had kings. 

1671
01:20:18,480 --> 01:20:22,200
So really, really old school. 
But George didn't give that to 

1672
01:20:22,200 --> 01:20:23,920
Valyria. 
There's no Valyrian legions that

1673
01:20:23,920 --> 01:20:26,800
we know of. 
The term legion is only used in 

1674
01:20:26,800 --> 01:20:28,720
Slaver's Bay that we've seen so 
far. 

1675
01:20:29,080 --> 01:20:32,320
It comes up several times, but 
only to refer to Slaver's Bay. 

1676
01:20:32,920 --> 01:20:36,720
Here's a quote that shows us how
very, very far back this dates. 

1677
01:20:37,320 --> 01:20:40,680
This is Krasnis Monaclas 
speaking through Misande to 

1678
01:20:40,680 --> 01:20:45,280
Daenerys as translator. 
The Unsullied have something 

1679
01:20:45,280 --> 01:20:48,960
better than strength. 
Tell her they have discipline. 

1680
01:20:49,240 --> 01:20:51,960
We fight in the fashion of the 
old Empire. 

1681
01:20:51,960 --> 01:20:55,960
Yes, they are the lockstep 
legions of old Geese. 

1682
01:20:55,960 --> 01:20:59,800
Come again? 
Absolutely obedient, absolutely 

1683
01:20:59,800 --> 01:21:05,480
loyal, and utterly without fear.
So old geese, a much older 

1684
01:21:05,480 --> 01:21:08,840
nation than Valyria acquired 
it's early in ancient empire 

1685
01:21:08,840 --> 01:21:11,440
based on the strength of their 
loyal, fearless and disciplined 

1686
01:21:11,440 --> 01:21:13,120
legions. 
These those legions conquered 

1687
01:21:13,120 --> 01:21:16,960
the surrounding areas. 
We don't know much about the 

1688
01:21:16,960 --> 01:21:19,800
founding of Old geese. 
We do have some art that might 

1689
01:21:19,800 --> 01:21:24,880
represent what they look like. 
Old geese as drawn by Sanrixi, 

1690
01:21:24,880 --> 01:21:27,200
An empire of old. 
Geese. 

1691
01:21:27,200 --> 01:21:30,000
I found it funny earlier this 
episode when you said old geese.

1692
01:21:30,000 --> 01:21:31,320
I know. 
And then I realized I don't say 

1693
01:21:31,320 --> 01:21:33,160
that. 
Got to say old geese to set up 

1694
01:21:33,160 --> 01:21:35,400
the joke. 
It was a mistake on my part. 

1695
01:21:35,840 --> 01:21:39,720
Yeah, there's these old geese. 
I would not, Yeah. 

1696
01:21:40,320 --> 01:21:43,880
Don't, don't, don't move there. 
Do not live under the Kingdom of

1697
01:21:43,920 --> 01:21:45,440
Old Geese, the Empire of Old 
Geese. 

1698
01:21:46,360 --> 01:21:49,440
Also, if you say guess, you 
might affect how we pronounce 

1699
01:21:49,480 --> 01:21:51,320
amies. 
We don't want to do that. 

1700
01:21:51,840 --> 01:21:53,800
Oh yeah, we gotta go EE on 
every. 

1701
01:21:53,840 --> 01:21:57,040
Day No no. 
Anus allowed on this stream. 

1702
01:21:57,040 --> 01:21:59,480
No anus. 
Now we we don't know much about 

1703
01:21:59,480 --> 01:22:02,000
the founding of Old Geese and 
what style of government they 

1704
01:22:02,000 --> 01:22:04,560
had, but of course they said it 
was an empire, so that gives us 

1705
01:22:04,560 --> 01:22:06,960
a pretty strong clue. 
But regardless, this is very 

1706
01:22:06,960 --> 01:22:08,920
similar to what happened with 
Rome in their early days. 

1707
01:22:08,920 --> 01:22:13,720
They eventually dominated some 
very powerful smaller neighbors 

1708
01:22:13,720 --> 01:22:16,920
who were, you know, as small as 
they were the the Sam Knights 

1709
01:22:16,920 --> 01:22:20,480
and the Etruscans and some other
nearby people campaignians. 

1710
01:22:20,480 --> 01:22:24,160
But the Roman Legion was 
superior not because of the men 

1711
01:22:24,160 --> 01:22:26,800
fighting in their with their 
Shields and swords were just 

1712
01:22:26,800 --> 01:22:29,880
better, but they came up with a 
better strategy, a better way to

1713
01:22:29,880 --> 01:22:32,240
manage their army. 
And that was such an effective 

1714
01:22:32,240 --> 01:22:35,320
thing that it worked on all 
their neighbors and kept working

1715
01:22:35,320 --> 01:22:40,160
for centuries. 
And this is similar apparently 

1716
01:22:40,160 --> 01:22:42,960
to what old geese did. 
And they expanded outside their 

1717
01:22:42,960 --> 01:22:45,720
territory because of this 
extremely well organized, 

1718
01:22:45,720 --> 01:22:48,000
extremely disciplined military. 
And that's the key here. 

1719
01:22:48,240 --> 01:22:51,240
What Krasny's MO Nat clause says
is discipline is what was 

1720
01:22:51,240 --> 01:22:55,040
crucial. 
And indeed discipline was 

1721
01:22:55,040 --> 01:22:57,800
crucial for the Roman Empire, 
for the Roman Republic, for 

1722
01:22:57,800 --> 01:23:00,160
their legions, and and they were
strict. 

1723
01:23:00,680 --> 01:23:06,120
They would at night build an 
entire Fort, every night they 

1724
01:23:06,120 --> 01:23:08,840
would dig ditches, and every 
single day they would build a 

1725
01:23:08,880 --> 01:23:12,000
fortified camp to sleep in so 
they could not be attacked. 

1726
01:23:12,000 --> 01:23:14,680
They did, they did. 
Took very few chances or maybe 

1727
01:23:14,680 --> 01:23:16,360
zero chances depending on how 
you look at it. 

1728
01:23:16,720 --> 01:23:19,000
And the Unsullied are kind of 
similar, or at least that's what

1729
01:23:19,000 --> 01:23:22,080
they're going for here. 
And if what Krasny's Monac Laws 

1730
01:23:22,080 --> 01:23:25,520
is saying is even remotely true,
it was that way for their 

1731
01:23:25,520 --> 01:23:30,480
citizen armies back in the day. 
Tokar versus Toga, Very similar.

1732
01:23:30,480 --> 01:23:33,200
Once again, this is a Roman 
style dress, but we have no 

1733
01:23:33,200 --> 01:23:34,960
evidence that it existed in 
Valyria. 

1734
01:23:35,120 --> 01:23:37,360
It's a Slaver's Bay thing, The 
toga. 

1735
01:23:37,360 --> 01:23:39,200
Let's talk about the toga 
compared to the Tocar. 

1736
01:23:39,200 --> 01:23:42,920
But even though they're very 
similar at first, the toga was 

1737
01:23:42,920 --> 01:23:48,360
usually woolen, usually white, 
round, and that is what defines 

1738
01:23:48,360 --> 01:23:50,720
it. 
The roundness is what set it 

1739
01:23:50,720 --> 01:23:54,480
apart from other antiquity style
cloaks which were usually 

1740
01:23:54,480 --> 01:23:55,600
square. 
That was new to me. 

1741
01:23:55,600 --> 01:23:57,080
I didn't realize that. 
Yeah, not neat. 

1742
01:23:57,080 --> 01:23:58,000
That's kind of cool. 
Yeah. 

1743
01:23:58,080 --> 01:24:01,640
So it was draped over the left 
shoulder and worn about the body

1744
01:24:01,680 --> 01:24:06,240
supposedly worn by Romulus 
himself, Romulus Waratoga, and 

1745
01:24:06,240 --> 01:24:07,880
the most important symbol of 
kingship. 

1746
01:24:07,880 --> 01:24:11,120
There's a bunch of symbols of of
legitimacy for a Roman king. 

1747
01:24:11,120 --> 01:24:15,640
Of course Roman kings died out, 
but at the time they had several

1748
01:24:15,640 --> 01:24:17,560
things. 
The most important symbol 

1749
01:24:18,000 --> 01:24:21,680
amongst those symbols was the 
toga picta, which is the purple 

1750
01:24:21,880 --> 01:24:26,600
toga with gold thread. 
Just like in Westeros and Essos.

1751
01:24:26,600 --> 01:24:32,360
The regal color is purple 
because of purple snails, the 

1752
01:24:32,360 --> 01:24:36,480
rarest color also in in Westeros
and Esso purple snails or snails

1753
01:24:36,480 --> 01:24:38,720
that produce purple, same thing 
the murex snails. 

1754
01:24:39,000 --> 01:24:41,760
So it was formal and reserved 
for citizens. 

1755
01:24:41,760 --> 01:24:44,560
The toga not the toga picta that
was only for the king. 

1756
01:24:45,240 --> 01:24:49,200
So if you weren't a citizen it 
was illegal to wear a toga. 

1757
01:24:50,680 --> 01:24:53,120
Getting your first toga was like
a rite of passage, like an 

1758
01:24:53,120 --> 01:24:54,560
adulthood. 
You're you're you're becoming a 

1759
01:24:54,560 --> 01:24:58,240
man or a a a woman, but usually 
women were a different garment. 

1760
01:24:58,920 --> 01:25:01,320
At first. 
The toga was for for all 

1761
01:25:01,320 --> 01:25:04,360
genders, but it was eventually 
replaced by the stola which is 

1762
01:25:04,360 --> 01:25:07,840
like a stole right? 
Similar term, the Toga was set 

1763
01:25:07,840 --> 01:25:11,360
aside on Saturnalia, which was 
something like opposite day 

1764
01:25:11,720 --> 01:25:15,360
Romani opposite day, which is 
when the slaves take place with 

1765
01:25:15,360 --> 01:25:17,000
the masters you switch places 
for a day. 

1766
01:25:17,240 --> 01:25:19,840
Even that is has a little bit of
a parallel in a long waste of 

1767
01:25:19,840 --> 01:25:23,000
fire because Astapore's butcher 
King Cleon invoked a Saturn, a 

1768
01:25:23,000 --> 01:25:25,720
permanent Saturnalia. 
All the masters became slaves 

1769
01:25:25,720 --> 01:25:28,080
and all the slaves became 
masters under his rule, which of

1770
01:25:28,080 --> 01:25:31,000
course didn't last very long 
lower class, but eventually it 

1771
01:25:31,000 --> 01:25:34,400
changed. 
Like all things the the upper 

1772
01:25:34,400 --> 01:25:38,360
classes sometimes kind of build 
walls around it. 

1773
01:25:39,080 --> 01:25:40,760
Lower class citizens stopped 
wearing togas. 

1774
01:25:40,760 --> 01:25:42,800
Then eventually middle class 
citizens stopped wearing togas. 

1775
01:25:43,280 --> 01:25:45,640
Eventually only the highest 
classes started wearing them, 

1776
01:25:45,800 --> 01:25:49,440
and eventually only on special 
occasions, and it started to 

1777
01:25:49,440 --> 01:25:51,600
spread more variety. 
Instead of the plain white 

1778
01:25:51,600 --> 01:25:56,560
woollen standard, it started to 
add lots of colors and styles 

1779
01:25:56,560 --> 01:25:59,800
for different events. 
There was like party toga and 

1780
01:25:59,920 --> 01:26:04,240
wedding toga and inauguration 
togas and all these things. 

1781
01:26:04,400 --> 01:26:06,120
No longer were they only 
woollen. 

1782
01:26:06,480 --> 01:26:09,000
But you didn't want it to be 
silk because that's too feminine

1783
01:26:09,000 --> 01:26:11,680
and too Eastern. 
So togas are supposed to be 

1784
01:26:11,680 --> 01:26:13,440
manly. 
So despite the colors and all 

1785
01:26:13,440 --> 01:26:14,840
the things, they still had to be
manly. 

1786
01:26:14,840 --> 01:26:17,560
And you couldn't be too 
ostentatious or feminine. 

1787
01:26:17,720 --> 01:26:21,600
The the poet Virgil wrote 
Romans, Lords of the World and 

1788
01:26:21,600 --> 01:26:23,840
the toga wearing people. 
So it's definitely drawing a 

1789
01:26:23,840 --> 01:26:28,160
distinction between toga wearing
people as as better as some sort

1790
01:26:28,160 --> 01:26:31,080
of somehow superior, more 
civilized, Which, you know, I 

1791
01:26:31,080 --> 01:26:33,520
would disagree with, but it 
certainly is certainly an 

1792
01:26:33,800 --> 01:26:38,640
opinion that was held Augustus, 
AKA Octavian, right? 

1793
01:26:38,640 --> 01:26:40,800
First Roman emperor. 
He was very socially 

1794
01:26:40,800 --> 01:26:43,640
conservative. 
He wanted Romans to return to 

1795
01:26:43,640 --> 01:26:47,120
the old school togas. 
He decreed that anyone attending

1796
01:26:47,120 --> 01:26:51,080
the theater in colored or dark 
or dirty clothing had to sit in 

1797
01:26:51,080 --> 01:26:53,160
the back. 
The front seats were for people 

1798
01:26:53,160 --> 01:26:58,760
wearing togas. 
So it was important not just for

1799
01:26:59,400 --> 01:27:01,680
like official events, but for 
just social events. 

1800
01:27:02,160 --> 01:27:04,720
Kind of plain part of me that's 
like imagining some of the 

1801
01:27:04,720 --> 01:27:08,480
social events I go to. 
Imagine if it was like people in

1802
01:27:08,560 --> 01:27:12,320
fits only at the front. 
If you're in casual clothes, if 

1803
01:27:12,320 --> 01:27:15,440
you're in jeans and AT shirt, 
you will sit at the back. 

1804
01:27:16,320 --> 01:27:21,120
I I think it's laughable and 
wrong, but I would be in the 

1805
01:27:21,120 --> 01:27:24,640
fit, so I would I would like 
this policy. 

1806
01:27:24,920 --> 01:27:27,520
Yeah, you got to see how things 
like this still happen to this 

1807
01:27:27,520 --> 01:27:29,680
very day. 
You know there's black tie 

1808
01:27:29,680 --> 01:27:31,080
events. 
And yeah, there are. 

1809
01:27:31,240 --> 01:27:33,000
Ball gown parties. 
You got to you know got to wear 

1810
01:27:33,000 --> 01:27:34,840
a costume. 
You know, like a lot less 

1811
01:27:34,840 --> 01:27:38,240
restrictive and not so 
important, but but still that I.

1812
01:27:38,320 --> 01:27:40,800
Still think it's a difference 
between like this is a black tie

1813
01:27:40,800 --> 01:27:43,560
event only or you can wear what 
you want, but you will only sit 

1814
01:27:43,560 --> 01:27:45,360
in a good seat if you're in a 
good tap. 

1815
01:27:45,440 --> 01:27:48,640
Like there's a slight difference
there that I really like. 

1816
01:27:50,840 --> 01:27:53,520
Some clubs won't let you win if 
you're wearing a ball cap. 

1817
01:27:53,520 --> 01:27:56,040
That's. 
True again, I think I'm used to 

1818
01:27:56,040 --> 01:27:58,000
that policy of you can't come 
in. 

1819
01:27:58,040 --> 01:28:01,440
I'm not. 
You can come in, but you got to 

1820
01:28:01,440 --> 01:28:03,240
stand in the back. 
That's the that's the part that 

1821
01:28:03,240 --> 01:28:03,960
we're not. 
Doing and it's. 

1822
01:28:05,680 --> 01:28:09,440
It's interesting because a lot 
of times maybe you want there to

1823
01:28:09,440 --> 01:28:11,920
be a certain vibe or you want to
look nice. 

1824
01:28:11,960 --> 01:28:15,680
I I'm thinking about that that 
John Wilson episode where they 

1825
01:28:15,680 --> 01:28:20,040
like he wasn't look like and he 
had enough fun at the MTV party.

1826
01:28:20,040 --> 01:28:20,920
You know, like you need to get 
out. 

1827
01:28:20,920 --> 01:28:22,240
You're on. 
Dude, you don't look like you're

1828
01:28:22,240 --> 01:28:24,320
having a good time. 
You need to be like, yeah. 

1829
01:28:24,440 --> 01:28:28,760
But, but, but also The thing is 
that a lot of times this is 

1830
01:28:28,760 --> 01:28:32,320
racism in disguise. 
Like, you know, yes, your proper

1831
01:28:32,320 --> 01:28:34,840
dress is just really just, this 
is just how I'd buy culture 

1832
01:28:34,840 --> 01:28:36,520
dresses. 
And this is considered hot. 

1833
01:28:36,520 --> 01:28:37,960
You know, like fancy in my 
culture. 

1834
01:28:38,080 --> 01:28:41,360
What was it in Curb Your 
Enthusiasm where where Leon he 

1835
01:28:41,360 --> 01:28:43,840
like gets asked to like take off
his do rag? 

1836
01:28:43,840 --> 01:28:45,000
And. 
He's like, this is like an 

1837
01:28:45,040 --> 01:28:48,800
Ascot, This is an. 
Ascot, you can't ask me to take 

1838
01:28:48,800 --> 01:28:53,400
this off, so let's move on to 
the tow car for the comparison 

1839
01:28:53,400 --> 01:28:55,800
now. 
So here is a quote to the first 

1840
01:28:55,800 --> 01:28:59,560
time we ever hear about a tocar.
It was the fringe on the tocar 

1841
01:28:59,560 --> 01:29:03,960
that proclaimed a man's status. 
Danny had been told by Captain 

1842
01:29:03,960 --> 01:29:08,280
Groslio in this cool green room 
atop the pyramid. 

1843
01:29:08,800 --> 01:29:12,200
Two of the slavers wore tocar's 
fringe in silver. 

1844
01:29:12,440 --> 01:29:18,400
Five had gold fringes, and one, 
the oldest, Grazdan, displayed a

1845
01:29:18,400 --> 01:29:23,200
fringe of fat white pearls that 
clacked together softly when he 

1846
01:29:23,200 --> 01:29:25,720
shifted in his seat or moved an 
arm. 

1847
01:29:26,000 --> 01:29:28,080
I love that phrase. 
The oldest Grazdan. 

1848
01:29:28,080 --> 01:29:30,320
There's so many Grazdan's It's 
the most popular name. 

1849
01:29:30,320 --> 01:29:32,440
It's it's necessary to to 
qualify that. 

1850
01:29:33,080 --> 01:29:38,360
So this is definitely more fancy
and effeminate for Romans, but 

1851
01:29:38,360 --> 01:29:41,880
it's it's still the same idea a 
a garment that wraps itself 

1852
01:29:41,880 --> 01:29:45,800
around you with nearly the same 
name, Tokar versus toga that 

1853
01:29:45,800 --> 01:29:48,480
displays your status. 
Only the masters wear these. 

1854
01:29:48,480 --> 01:29:51,760
It's a it's a slave master 
garment slaves don't wear this. 

1855
01:29:51,960 --> 01:29:55,240
Probably a long, long history. 
This tokar has probably existed 

1856
01:29:55,240 --> 01:29:57,160
for a long time. 
Unlike Rome, it's not gendered. 

1857
01:29:57,160 --> 01:30:01,080
Although technically even Tokas 
weren't gendered originally, but

1858
01:30:01,080 --> 01:30:04,120
they did become that over time. 
In Slaver's Bay they're not. 

1859
01:30:04,120 --> 01:30:07,560
You see women wearing tow cars 
and and men is wearing it as 

1860
01:30:07,560 --> 01:30:08,680
well. 
It doesn't seem to matter. 

1861
01:30:08,720 --> 01:30:11,440
But also, just like early Roman 
law, it's a law. 

1862
01:30:12,480 --> 01:30:16,360
You cannot wear a tow car if 
you're not freeborn. 

1863
01:30:16,640 --> 01:30:20,040
That's the law in Astapore. 
It's probably the law in marine 

1864
01:30:20,040 --> 01:30:22,240
and young Kai as well, but 
specifically we only hear about 

1865
01:30:22,240 --> 01:30:25,600
an Astapore, that krasnismo 
naclaus. 

1866
01:30:25,600 --> 01:30:28,240
The first one is the first 
person we see to wear one. 

1867
01:30:28,880 --> 01:30:32,000
He's very he was very doomed. 
Of course he his green, his it 

1868
01:30:32,000 --> 01:30:35,720
was a sea green silk tow car. 
And I say was because it was 

1869
01:30:35,720 --> 01:30:39,600
almost certainly burned with him
because Drogon got him good. 

1870
01:30:40,160 --> 01:30:43,960
Now he is shown holding it on 
like you have to keep one hand 

1871
01:30:43,960 --> 01:30:46,680
on it to keep it on, which is 
just to show that you can do 

1872
01:30:46,680 --> 01:30:49,040
that because you don't need to 
do any work. 

1873
01:30:49,200 --> 01:30:50,880
I can. 
I can use one hand to hold my 

1874
01:30:50,880 --> 01:30:54,400
garment up because I'm so rich 
that my slaves do everything 

1875
01:30:54,400 --> 01:30:56,760
else for me. 
And in his other hand, a whip, 

1876
01:30:57,960 --> 01:31:00,400
extremely symbolic. 
It tells you that everything you

1877
01:31:00,400 --> 01:31:02,360
need to know. 
Fancy garment and whip. 

1878
01:31:02,720 --> 01:31:06,440
Like if you saw that if you saw 
fancy garment and whip, wouldn't

1879
01:31:06,440 --> 01:31:09,880
you think slave owner like 
that's just like just a scream 

1880
01:31:09,880 --> 01:31:12,880
slave owner. 
But George is go ahead. 

1881
01:31:12,920 --> 01:31:14,200
Depends on what club you're 
going into. 

1882
01:31:15,840 --> 01:31:17,680
That's true. 
It might just be a BDSM thing, 

1883
01:31:17,720 --> 01:31:20,160
yes. 
But still that person wants to 

1884
01:31:20,160 --> 01:31:23,920
take a dominant role. 
It's still that that dynamic is 

1885
01:31:23,920 --> 01:31:26,400
still called master slave a lot 
of times. 

1886
01:31:26,440 --> 01:31:28,760
Yeah, it's still, it's still got
that same connotation. 

1887
01:31:28,760 --> 01:31:33,720
It's just it it also has, you 
know, consent embedded into it, 

1888
01:31:33,720 --> 01:31:35,800
unlike real slavery. 
So. 

1889
01:31:36,600 --> 01:31:38,880
But look how George uses it. 
This is something I think is 

1890
01:31:38,880 --> 01:31:40,640
great. 
This is more than just a Roman, 

1891
01:31:40,920 --> 01:31:42,880
A song of Ice and Fire peril. 
It is that also. 

1892
01:31:43,080 --> 01:31:47,520
But this is just great writing, 
George, focusing on the tocar 

1893
01:31:47,760 --> 01:31:52,880
and showing how it is both what 
marks them for death because of 

1894
01:31:52,880 --> 01:31:57,240
the evil and also what makes 
them an easier target quote. 

1895
01:31:57,480 --> 01:32:02,120
Then the Plaza of Punishment 
blew apart into blood and chaos.

1896
01:32:02,360 --> 01:32:06,520
The good masters were shrieking,
stumbling, shoving one another 

1897
01:32:06,520 --> 01:32:09,520
aside, and tripping over the 
fringes of their tocars. 

1898
01:32:09,520 --> 01:32:14,720
In their haste, Drogon flew 
almost lazily at Krasny's black 

1899
01:32:14,720 --> 01:32:19,040
wings, beating as he gave the 
slaver another taste of fire. 

1900
01:32:19,320 --> 01:32:23,440
Eerie and Jiki Unchained 
Vissarion and Ragal, and 

1901
01:32:23,440 --> 01:32:28,160
suddenly there were three 
Dragons in the air when Danny 

1902
01:32:28,160 --> 01:32:32,800
turned to look. 1/3 of 
Astapore's proud demon horned 

1903
01:32:32,800 --> 01:32:37,200
warriors were fighting to stay 
atop their terrified mounts, and

1904
01:32:37,200 --> 01:32:41,600
another third were fleeing in a 
bright blaze of shiny copper. 

1905
01:32:42,080 --> 01:32:46,720
One man kept his saddle long 
enough to draw a sword, but 

1906
01:32:46,720 --> 01:32:50,400
Jogo's whip coiled about his 
neck and cut off his shout. 

1907
01:32:50,680 --> 01:32:55,600
Another lost a hand to Recaro's 
Iraq and rode off, reeling and 

1908
01:32:55,600 --> 01:32:59,880
spurting blood. 
AGO sat calmly notching arrows 

1909
01:32:59,880 --> 01:33:05,040
to his bowstring and sending 
them at tow cars, silver, gold 

1910
01:33:05,040 --> 01:33:08,080
or plain. 
He cared nothing for the fringe.

1911
01:33:08,080 --> 01:33:10,800
Those last two lines, calmly 
notching arrows was bowstring 

1912
01:33:10,800 --> 01:33:14,400
and sending them at tow cars, 
Not at people, at tow cars, not 

1913
01:33:14,400 --> 01:33:17,880
at good masters, at tow cars. 
That's the symbol. 

1914
01:33:17,880 --> 01:33:19,520
That's the thing that needs to 
die. 

1915
01:33:19,760 --> 01:33:22,280
Silver, gold or plain. 
He cared nothing for the French.

1916
01:33:22,280 --> 01:33:23,720
What a great. 
That's such a good line. 

1917
01:33:23,840 --> 01:33:25,280
I mean, that whole scene is 
incredible. 

1918
01:33:25,400 --> 01:33:28,760
It's one of the most like raw. 
Yes moments of the whole series.

1919
01:33:29,000 --> 01:33:30,520
It's a great. 
You don't necessarily see it 

1920
01:33:30,520 --> 01:33:32,960
coming. 
Every time I read it, it makes 

1921
01:33:32,960 --> 01:33:35,000
me excited. 
Yeah, it's great. 

1922
01:33:35,200 --> 01:33:38,640
And that did like peel it back 
down for Negrandis 2, just to 

1923
01:33:38,640 --> 01:33:40,760
remind you of the fringe and the
tow cars just. 

1924
01:33:40,920 --> 01:33:43,560
Like. 
Pull those details in and put 

1925
01:33:43,560 --> 01:33:45,000
you in. 
I'll go shoes for a minute. 

1926
01:33:45,000 --> 01:33:46,080
It was, yeah. 
It's really great. 

1927
01:33:46,200 --> 01:33:49,080
It's so good. 
Long after that, when she's also

1928
01:33:49,080 --> 01:33:51,640
beaten asked for entirely, she's
claimed her Unsullied and 

1929
01:33:51,640 --> 01:33:55,360
conquered marine because of its 
association with the master 

1930
01:33:55,360 --> 01:33:57,680
slave relationship. 
Danny wants to ban the Tokar 

1931
01:33:57,680 --> 01:34:01,160
outright, but she's talked into 
not only keeping it, but wearing

1932
01:34:01,160 --> 01:34:04,680
one herself, which is kind of 
like, yeah, I guess we got to do

1933
01:34:04,680 --> 01:34:06,800
that rabbit, you know? 
Dude, where are the rabbits? 

1934
01:34:07,320 --> 01:34:09,280
Floppy ears. 
That's goes in with that whole 

1935
01:34:09,280 --> 01:34:11,680
thing where she's got to be one 
of them to change them. 

1936
01:34:11,800 --> 01:34:14,680
You do see it in a different 
light with the context of that 

1937
01:34:14,680 --> 01:34:17,200
passage just now, though, right?
It's almost like she's putting a

1938
01:34:17,200 --> 01:34:20,720
target on herself that she's 
become one of them, etcetera, 

1939
01:34:20,720 --> 01:34:22,400
yeah. 
Yes, yes, absolutely. 

1940
01:34:22,720 --> 01:34:25,560
And if you look it up, if you 
look up Tokar in the world, in 

1941
01:34:25,560 --> 01:34:30,480
the Wiki of Ice and Fire People,
it's it's typically like our 

1942
01:34:30,480 --> 01:34:33,080
fandom. 
Every single tokar in the entire

1943
01:34:33,080 --> 01:34:36,040
series is mentioned because it's
just and you and you look at it 

1944
01:34:36,040 --> 01:34:37,880
as a list. 
It's like wow, that is a lot of 

1945
01:34:37,880 --> 01:34:39,840
variety. 
Every single color and fabric 

1946
01:34:39,840 --> 01:34:41,680
with gems and and all this other
stuff. 

1947
01:34:41,680 --> 01:34:43,400
Yeah. 
But you can see how it's like 

1948
01:34:44,080 --> 01:34:46,680
the status is embedded in it. 
Like one of them had pearls on 

1949
01:34:46,680 --> 01:34:49,240
his tow car. 
All of them could afford pearls 

1950
01:34:49,240 --> 01:34:51,080
on their tow car. 
They're all insanely rich. 

1951
01:34:51,080 --> 01:34:53,200
But but it's still there's a 
hierarchy in there. 

1952
01:34:53,200 --> 01:34:55,600
Like no, you're not allowed. 
It would be presumptuous for you

1953
01:34:55,600 --> 01:34:59,000
to to wear pearls like oldest 
Grazdan. 

1954
01:34:59,000 --> 01:35:02,440
You know when you're that old, 
you can wear pearls, you know, 

1955
01:35:02,440 --> 01:35:04,760
So it's it's, it's embedded. 
There's definitely a hierarchy 

1956
01:35:04,760 --> 01:35:07,960
in there. 
If it's not quite clear, but 

1957
01:35:07,960 --> 01:35:10,320
it's there, you can sense it. 
Let's compare the two, since we 

1958
01:35:10,320 --> 01:35:12,480
said Valyria and slavers may 
have a lot in common with each 

1959
01:35:12,760 --> 01:35:16,520
with both have Roman influences 
and have things in common with 

1960
01:35:16,520 --> 01:35:17,880
each other because one conquered
the other. 

1961
01:35:17,880 --> 01:35:20,760
And that's also why it's also 
the case with Rome and 

1962
01:35:20,760 --> 01:35:23,040
somebody's places like Rome 
didn't invent this, but they 

1963
01:35:23,040 --> 01:35:25,800
conquered the people that did 
and the two things kind of 

1964
01:35:25,800 --> 01:35:32,480
merged. 
So instead of Rome having what 

1965
01:35:32,480 --> 01:35:35,920
he did basically George took 
Rome's long evolution and gave 

1966
01:35:35,920 --> 01:35:40,120
parts of it to to Valyria and 
parts of it to old geese and 

1967
01:35:40,120 --> 01:35:44,080
kind of in reverse like the 
Roman Republic became the Roman 

1968
01:35:44,080 --> 01:35:46,400
Empire in the real world and 
when Kingdom, Republic, empire 

1969
01:35:46,400 --> 01:35:49,880
in the real world here it was 
more like old geese became was 

1970
01:35:49,880 --> 01:35:52,600
the powerful empire and then 
Valyria like the Republic came 

1971
01:35:52,600 --> 01:35:55,520
along and and overtopped them 
over a much longer period of 

1972
01:35:55,520 --> 01:35:57,360
time. 
And like so many historical 

1973
01:35:57,360 --> 01:35:59,320
parallels, don't look at it as a
one to one. 

1974
01:35:59,800 --> 01:36:02,840
It's more of a many to many 
similar things. 

1975
01:36:03,960 --> 01:36:05,000
But that is how I think about 
it. 

1976
01:36:05,000 --> 01:36:08,440
Valyria's Roman Republic 
overtook Geese's Roman Empire. 

1977
01:36:08,720 --> 01:36:10,760
And I kind of guess they both 
started with kings. 

1978
01:36:10,880 --> 01:36:13,480
You know, they both started with
individual rulers that maybe 

1979
01:36:13,480 --> 01:36:16,600
that wasn't the official title 
king, but it's how so many 

1980
01:36:16,600 --> 01:36:20,000
ancient societies started. 
It's a reasonable guess, but not

1981
01:36:20,480 --> 01:36:22,240
an assumption we should be 
certain about. 

1982
01:36:22,440 --> 01:36:25,960
Let's talk about Rome and the 
Great Empire, the Dawn, a nation

1983
01:36:25,960 --> 01:36:30,800
that preceded either Valyria or 
the Ghiscari, the Bloodstone 

1984
01:36:30,800 --> 01:36:34,440
Emperor, was said to worship a 
Blackstone that fell from the 

1985
01:36:34,440 --> 01:36:42,760
sky and that was led to the the 
betrayal and the blood betrayal 

1986
01:36:42,760 --> 01:36:45,040
and which caused the Long Night.
According to that particular 

1987
01:36:45,040 --> 01:36:46,680
legend, there's other reasons 
for the Long Night and other 

1988
01:36:46,680 --> 01:36:47,760
legends, but this is one of 
them. 

1989
01:36:48,440 --> 01:36:53,840
Let me tell you of Sextus 
various Avitus Bassianus, AKA 

1990
01:36:53,840 --> 01:36:57,480
Heliogabulus, AKA Elegabulus, 
which was the same name as her 

1991
01:36:57,480 --> 01:36:58,720
Arab Roman Sun God. 
Yes. 

1992
01:36:58,720 --> 01:37:01,200
This guy named himself after a 
God. 

1993
01:37:02,440 --> 01:37:06,320
He was an Arab Roman himself, 
related to a royal Roman family 

1994
01:37:06,320 --> 01:37:10,320
and the royal family of Syria. 
So he was royal on two sides, 

1995
01:37:10,600 --> 01:37:12,720
and he was the Emperor of Rome 
as a teenager. 

1996
01:37:13,080 --> 01:37:15,560
Yeah. 
He was assassinated by the 

1997
01:37:15,560 --> 01:37:19,880
Praetorian Guard after only four
years, in the year 222, which, 

1998
01:37:20,560 --> 01:37:23,960
funnily enough, is exactly 100 
years after the construction of 

1999
01:37:23,960 --> 01:37:26,440
Hadrian's Wall began. 
And let me tell you why they 

2000
01:37:26,440 --> 01:37:27,800
killed him. 
Well, he's part of why. 

2001
01:37:27,800 --> 01:37:30,520
There were a lot of reasons. 
He flaunted a lot of Roman 

2002
01:37:30,520 --> 01:37:34,200
religious and sexual traditions 
and which I have explained 

2003
01:37:34,200 --> 01:37:36,280
earlier they were very 
conservative about. 

2004
01:37:37,000 --> 01:37:39,520
And it's a major parallel here 
because that's what the 

2005
01:37:39,520 --> 01:37:42,760
Bloodstone emperor was doing. 
He was trying to change their 

2006
01:37:42,760 --> 01:37:46,160
religion, trying to start a new 
cult, a new form of worship. 

2007
01:37:46,640 --> 01:37:49,600
He took an existing temple of 
Jupiter, which you know that's 

2008
01:37:49,640 --> 01:37:54,680
Zeus, the parallel the same God,
and switched it, called it the 

2009
01:37:54,680 --> 01:37:58,080
Elegabalium Elegabalium. 
Ashay and I had a lot of fun 

2010
01:37:58,440 --> 01:38:05,480
pronouncing, which housed A 
conical Blackstone that 

2011
01:38:05,480 --> 01:38:08,440
personified the God. 
It fell from the sky. 

2012
01:38:08,440 --> 01:38:11,480
Most archaeologists and 
historians believe this was a 

2013
01:38:11,480 --> 01:38:13,240
meteorite. 
So an actual Blackstone that 

2014
01:38:13,240 --> 01:38:16,720
fell from the sky. 
Yup, this is called a beteal. 

2015
01:38:16,800 --> 01:38:20,200
Consider the word Bethel. 
Like Bethlehem, it's the Semitic

2016
01:38:20,200 --> 01:38:23,160
meaning House of God, or from 
the Semitic meaning House of 

2017
01:38:23,160 --> 01:38:26,720
God, BAETYL. 
So it's it's best tile. 

2018
01:38:26,720 --> 01:38:29,080
It's your most beloved TYL Bay 
Teal. 

2019
01:38:29,680 --> 01:38:34,400
It is a sacred stone that was 
either endowed with life or gave

2020
01:38:34,400 --> 01:38:38,600
access to a deity. 
And yeah, meteorites. 

2021
01:38:38,600 --> 01:38:39,920
I just want to make a quick 
joke. 

2022
01:38:39,920 --> 01:38:45,120
I wonder if at the temple of 
Elaga elagabalium is blah blah 

2023
01:38:45,120 --> 01:38:45,600
blah. 
Yeah, that's. 

2024
01:38:46,320 --> 01:38:49,120
Where he lives, blah blah blah 
does live at the El Gabadon 

2025
01:38:49,240 --> 01:38:51,560
also. 
Is Bateal what you did go with? 

2026
01:38:51,640 --> 01:38:54,720
Is that your name for your new 
Baldur's Gate 3 character? 

2027
01:38:55,600 --> 01:38:56,600
Elegabulus. 
No. 

2028
01:38:56,600 --> 01:38:58,120
Didn't you go? 
Where did you say Batel? 

2029
01:38:58,240 --> 01:38:59,280
Oh yeah, Bateal. 
Yeah, I did. 

2030
01:38:59,280 --> 01:39:00,400
Yeah, I did. 
I took it. 

2031
01:39:00,400 --> 01:39:03,840
I knew I had a Baldur's Gate 
character, an evil 1A, a Dark 

2032
01:39:03,840 --> 01:39:07,480
Urge character called Bateal. 
He's Drow. 

2033
01:39:08,400 --> 01:39:11,840
So the ancient historian 
Herodian writes quote. 

2034
01:39:13,120 --> 01:39:16,280
A6 Horse chariot carried the 
divinity. 

2035
01:39:16,440 --> 01:39:20,760
The horse is huge and Florida 
State white with expensive gold 

2036
01:39:20,760 --> 01:39:25,520
fittings and rich ornaments. 
No one held the reins and no one

2037
01:39:25,520 --> 01:39:28,880
rode in the chariot. 
The vehicle was escorted as if 

2038
01:39:28,880 --> 01:39:31,520
the God himself were the 
charioteer. 

2039
01:39:31,960 --> 01:39:36,920
Elegabalus ran backward in front
of the chariot, facing the God 

2040
01:39:36,920 --> 01:39:41,160
and holding the horses reins. 
He made the whole journey in 

2041
01:39:41,160 --> 01:39:45,280
this reverse fashion, looking up
into the face of his God. 

2042
01:39:45,640 --> 01:39:48,280
So this guy walked backwards in 
front of the chariot and the 

2043
01:39:48,280 --> 01:39:51,360
Blackstone sat in the seat like 
this. 

2044
01:39:51,360 --> 01:39:54,840
This this stone was like the 
driver of this chariot. 

2045
01:39:55,440 --> 01:39:58,520
Yeah, the Romans thought this 
was weird too, even though their

2046
01:39:58,520 --> 01:40:00,440
version of normal would also 
look pretty weird when it comes 

2047
01:40:00,440 --> 01:40:02,880
to religious rituals. 
No matter how you slice it 

2048
01:40:03,440 --> 01:40:05,400
though, getting people to switch
gods. 

2049
01:40:06,080 --> 01:40:07,320
Tall task? 
Cough cough. 

2050
01:40:07,320 --> 01:40:09,400
Stannis, Melisandre. 
Free poke. 

2051
01:40:10,880 --> 01:40:14,440
You know, they're nothing like 
Elegabula, Stannis and 

2052
01:40:14,440 --> 01:40:20,280
Melisandre, but they have this. 
They do have lots of aggressive 

2053
01:40:20,280 --> 01:40:23,640
conversions, attempted or 
otherwise, on their resume. 

2054
01:40:23,720 --> 01:40:26,800
It just doesn't go very well. 
Like forceful conversions. 

2055
01:40:27,360 --> 01:40:30,600
Like the whole nature of belief 
is you have to believe it, you 

2056
01:40:30,600 --> 01:40:31,880
can't. 
Like forcing someone to. 

2057
01:40:31,880 --> 01:40:35,480
It just goes against the whole 
idea of faith and belief in the 

2058
01:40:35,480 --> 01:40:37,240
1st place, right? 
Forcing it, yeah. 

2059
01:40:37,560 --> 01:40:40,440
You know, this reminds me a 
little of that one Martin book, 

2060
01:40:40,600 --> 01:40:42,600
or I don't know if it's the 
whole book, a short story, a 

2061
01:40:42,600 --> 01:40:46,120
short book where these stones 
were sort of captivating people 

2062
01:40:46,120 --> 01:40:48,160
and be directing them. 
And seven times. 

2063
01:40:48,160 --> 01:40:49,840
Never kill man. 
That's it. 

2064
01:40:49,840 --> 01:40:52,480
Yes. 
I I bet he took some inspiration

2065
01:40:52,480 --> 01:40:55,040
from this. 
The idea of how this stone is, 

2066
01:40:55,680 --> 01:40:58,240
as this ruler under its control 
almost, you know. 

2067
01:40:58,280 --> 01:41:02,160
Those were little black pyramids
sent by the Rangans to fit 

2068
01:41:02,800 --> 01:41:05,800
people's religious beliefs and 
make them fall deeper into 

2069
01:41:05,800 --> 01:41:08,560
religious awe and zealotry. 
Yeah, it's really good story. 

2070
01:41:08,560 --> 01:41:12,080
We talked about it during, I 
think, the packed episode of El 

2071
01:41:12,080 --> 01:41:13,680
Ariridis. 
I'm not sure. 

2072
01:41:13,680 --> 01:41:15,680
It was definitely one of our 
weirwood Children of the Forest 

2073
01:41:15,680 --> 01:41:17,080
episodes. 
And we've talked about the 

2074
01:41:17,080 --> 01:41:19,200
Blackstone and the great Empire 
of the Dawn episode, I believe 

2075
01:41:19,200 --> 01:41:21,120
as well. 
I mean the Elegabulus part of 

2076
01:41:21,120 --> 01:41:23,640
it. 
Anyway, the quote continues. 

2077
01:41:23,640 --> 01:41:25,520
Here is more Ellegabulus 
craziness. 

2078
01:41:25,840 --> 01:41:30,440
Ellegabulus forced senators to 
watch while he danced around the

2079
01:41:30,440 --> 01:41:35,200
altar of ellegabel to the sound 
of drums and cymbals, and that 

2080
01:41:35,200 --> 01:41:39,360
each summer Solstice became a 
great festival to ellegabel, 

2081
01:41:39,600 --> 01:41:43,720
popular with the masses because 
of its widely distributed food. 

2082
01:41:44,160 --> 01:41:47,760
During this festival, Ella 
Gabelis placed Ella Gabel on a 

2083
01:41:47,760 --> 01:41:51,920
chariot adorned with gold and 
jewels, which he paraded through

2084
01:41:51,920 --> 01:41:56,080
the city, after which he threw 
gifts into the Roman crowds. 

2085
01:41:56,440 --> 01:41:59,480
I should have altered that quote
to have it say ella gabel more. 

2086
01:41:59,520 --> 01:42:03,000
Yeah, you should have. 
I mean, I really that was hard 

2087
01:42:03,000 --> 01:42:05,400
for me to keep a straight face 
because of how silly we got 

2088
01:42:05,400 --> 01:42:07,640
before the episode saying Ella 
Gabelis. 

2089
01:42:08,160 --> 01:42:12,320
Also, I was cracking a smile as 
I read this, like really 

2090
01:42:12,320 --> 01:42:15,360
struggling not to laugh. 
So it. 

2091
01:42:15,360 --> 01:42:19,920
Was a temple of Ella Gabble next
to the Tower of Babel, blah blah

2092
01:42:19,920 --> 01:42:21,400
blah I. 
Understand I should just call 

2093
01:42:21,400 --> 01:42:23,360
him Gabby. 
Gabby. 

2094
01:42:23,400 --> 01:42:27,560
I just call him Gabby. 
Gabby was, yeah. 

2095
01:42:27,560 --> 01:42:32,000
What did I say before about 
Romans and how men had to be not

2096
01:42:32,000 --> 01:42:39,600
effeminate and all dancing 
around and adorning A chariot 

2097
01:42:39,600 --> 01:42:41,760
with gold? 
This is not masculine in their 

2098
01:42:41,760 --> 01:42:43,760
eyes at all. 
Nor is this stuff about the 

2099
01:42:43,760 --> 01:42:47,360
changing of of sexualization. 
Yeah, this was unpopular with 

2100
01:42:47,600 --> 01:42:51,200
Roman elites, not unpopular with
the masses as it says because he

2101
01:42:51,200 --> 01:42:53,520
gave out food. 
He again, the bribery thing. 

2102
01:42:53,960 --> 01:42:55,720
This didn't have to do with 
elections. 

2103
01:42:55,720 --> 01:42:57,560
Because he was an emperor, he 
didn't have to be elected, but 

2104
01:42:57,560 --> 01:43:00,600
he still it mattered. 
His popularity amongst the 

2105
01:43:00,600 --> 01:43:03,560
people still matters. 
For his political career, we 

2106
01:43:03,560 --> 01:43:06,680
have associated tales of human 
sacrifice along with Ella. 

2107
01:43:06,680 --> 01:43:08,960
Gabel may not have actually 
happened because there was 

2108
01:43:08,960 --> 01:43:13,880
efforts to make him look worse 
after the fact, even though he 

2109
01:43:13,920 --> 01:43:18,000
looked pretty bad anyway. 
But he may have been getting 

2110
01:43:18,040 --> 01:43:21,080
children from noble families and
sacrificing them, which also 

2111
01:43:21,080 --> 01:43:24,280
happened under the Bloodstone 
Emperor because there was human 

2112
01:43:24,280 --> 01:43:25,560
sacrifice under the Bloodstone 
Emperor. 

2113
01:43:26,000 --> 01:43:28,600
And it's an example of several 
things. 

2114
01:43:28,600 --> 01:43:32,240
This, this tale story, it's a 
piece of Roman history that 

2115
01:43:32,240 --> 01:43:34,480
doesn't necessarily sound all 
that Roman, right? 

2116
01:43:34,600 --> 01:43:35,960
This stuff. 
It's like a Roman emperor did 

2117
01:43:35,960 --> 01:43:38,760
this, but if you didn't attach 
Roman emperor to that, you 

2118
01:43:38,760 --> 01:43:41,640
wouldn't guess it. 
You'd guess something else. 

2119
01:43:41,640 --> 01:43:45,520
The name doesn't sound Roman. 
Yeah, it just wouldn't sound all

2120
01:43:45,520 --> 01:43:47,440
that Roman. 
It didn't originate in Rome. 

2121
01:43:47,440 --> 01:43:49,320
It was. 
It came from Arab, from Arabia, 

2122
01:43:49,320 --> 01:43:52,480
from Syria, and was brought over
to Rome by an Arab Roman 

2123
01:43:52,480 --> 01:43:55,640
emperor. 
So it's also a story that is 

2124
01:43:55,640 --> 01:43:58,880
both true and scandalous without
being embellished. 

2125
01:43:59,360 --> 01:44:03,760
No, probably was also 
embellished at the time, right? 

2126
01:44:04,880 --> 01:44:08,240
And even if it wasn't true, and 
we believe it is, it would still

2127
01:44:08,240 --> 01:44:10,560
be a great story worth telling. 
True or not, it's still a good 

2128
01:44:10,560 --> 01:44:13,880
story, whether fictional or not.
And that is the kind of thing 

2129
01:44:13,880 --> 01:44:15,360
that could capture George's 
imagination. 

2130
01:44:15,680 --> 01:44:17,600
George could read that and be 
like, I don't care if this is 

2131
01:44:17,600 --> 01:44:19,480
true or not. 
It's a great thing for my world 

2132
01:44:19,480 --> 01:44:22,200
building. 
It's more interesting, perhaps 

2133
01:44:22,200 --> 01:44:24,400
because it is true, or sort of 
true. 

2134
01:44:24,840 --> 01:44:28,320
But had this been entirely 
fictious, fictitious George 

2135
01:44:28,320 --> 01:44:30,800
could have still borrowed it and
we would still count it as Roman

2136
01:44:30,800 --> 01:44:32,960
influence, because there are a 
lot of people in Rome that would

2137
01:44:32,960 --> 01:44:34,200
have believed this stuff at the 
time. 

2138
01:44:34,200 --> 01:44:37,520
If it was told it was propaganda
told during Roman times, then it

2139
01:44:37,520 --> 01:44:39,160
would have been a belief held by
a lot of Romans. 

2140
01:44:39,160 --> 01:44:42,840
So that's just kind of an 
interesting little meta analysis

2141
01:44:42,840 --> 01:44:45,960
of Roman influence doesn't have 
to mean truth. 

2142
01:44:46,720 --> 01:44:48,360
Influence doesn't mean it 
doesn't have to come from 

2143
01:44:48,360 --> 01:44:52,040
accurate history, right? 
I mean, the National Enquirer 

2144
01:44:52,040 --> 01:44:55,240
influences people. 
You know, tabloids influence 

2145
01:44:55,280 --> 01:44:57,560
people, you know, and TV 
influences people. 

2146
01:44:57,560 --> 01:44:59,560
So let's talk about Rome on 
television. 

2147
01:44:59,560 --> 01:45:01,960
That's where a lot of things 
just kind of get glossed over, 

2148
01:45:01,960 --> 01:45:04,320
where truth or things that are 
commonly believed get 

2149
01:45:04,440 --> 01:45:08,080
perpetuated in place of things 
that are more accurate because, 

2150
01:45:08,080 --> 01:45:10,680
well, it wouldn't be as fun on 
TV if we told the real story. 

2151
01:45:11,680 --> 01:45:14,360
And yeah, the mega influence of 
Rome in the real world has led 

2152
01:45:14,360 --> 01:45:19,840
to countless productions. 
Books, movies, shows, games, you

2153
01:45:19,840 --> 01:45:21,680
name it right. 
There's two major influences 

2154
01:45:21,680 --> 01:45:23,640
that we'll discuss here, both of
them TV shows. 

2155
01:45:24,080 --> 01:45:27,160
The 1st is a great example of 
the point that the true story 

2156
01:45:27,160 --> 01:45:30,680
isn't often the influential one.
The Roman author Suetonius is 

2157
01:45:30,680 --> 01:45:32,360
considered kind of sketchy at 
best. 

2158
01:45:33,080 --> 01:45:38,960
He's likened to an ancient 
tabloid writer because George 

2159
01:45:38,960 --> 01:45:42,960
laughs about how Suetonius wrote
some extremely raunchy, gossipy 

2160
01:45:42,960 --> 01:45:45,640
pieces with no source or 
corroboration of any kind. 

2161
01:45:45,680 --> 01:45:47,720
And he compares Suetonius to 
mushroom. 

2162
01:45:48,120 --> 01:45:49,960
Right on. 
Yeah, there you go, George. 

2163
01:45:49,960 --> 01:45:52,520
That's awesome. 
So it gives you kind of an idea 

2164
01:45:52,720 --> 01:45:54,880
of what kind of focuses on this 
particular author had. 

2165
01:45:55,000 --> 01:45:57,320
And George's like, yeah, I know 
this stuff is probably made-up, 

2166
01:45:57,720 --> 01:45:58,920
but I'm going to use it. 
It's great. 

2167
01:45:58,920 --> 01:46:00,960
It's good stuff. 
It's it's it's good fodder for 

2168
01:46:00,960 --> 01:46:02,600
my story because it's just 
clever. 

2169
01:46:02,600 --> 01:46:04,600
And whether it was happened or 
not doesn't matter. 

2170
01:46:04,760 --> 01:46:09,400
Before going on to point out 
that Suetonius version is what 

2171
01:46:09,400 --> 01:46:12,840
also inspired Robert Graves to 
write I, Claudius, which is the 

2172
01:46:12,840 --> 01:46:14,400
TV first TV show we'll talk 
about. 

2173
01:46:15,480 --> 01:46:19,040
But this is one of those rare 
examples where George was more 

2174
01:46:19,040 --> 01:46:22,520
influenced by the TV adaptation 
of I, Claudius than the books. 

2175
01:46:22,520 --> 01:46:23,800
He, of course, has consumed 
both. 

2176
01:46:24,360 --> 01:46:29,760
So let's talk about I, Claudius.
The show is framed as Emperor 

2177
01:46:29,760 --> 01:46:33,320
Claudius, who was the 4th Roman 
Emperor telling his biography. 

2178
01:46:33,320 --> 01:46:36,160
So it's like a framing device 
where he's old and dying. 

2179
01:46:36,160 --> 01:46:39,400
I mean not he's not like on his 
deathbed, but he's old and his 

2180
01:46:39,440 --> 01:46:42,640
he knows his time is shortish. 
So he's writing a biography 

2181
01:46:42,640 --> 01:46:45,280
dictating a biography. 
So he's telling the tale of his 

2182
01:46:45,280 --> 01:46:50,960
family, and his family is 
Augustus and Tiberius and 

2183
01:46:50,960 --> 01:46:54,440
Caligula and Livia and lots of 
these famous names. 

2184
01:46:54,440 --> 01:46:56,800
Agrapina, lots of famous Roman 
names. 

2185
01:46:57,400 --> 01:47:00,360
And Claudius's own ascension to 
power is kind of similar to 

2186
01:47:00,360 --> 01:47:03,520
Aegon, Unlikely because he was 
not considered a candidate. 

2187
01:47:03,520 --> 01:47:05,280
He was very far down in the line
of succession. 

2188
01:47:05,440 --> 01:47:07,920
He has physically some things in
common with Bran and Tyrion had 

2189
01:47:07,920 --> 01:47:11,320
some had a lisp which made 
people not take him 

2190
01:47:11,320 --> 01:47:13,480
mysteriously. 
He had a limp and he was a 

2191
01:47:13,480 --> 01:47:14,320
scholar. 
So. 

2192
01:47:14,320 --> 01:47:16,840
So it's kind of like Maester 
Eamon in that sense where he was

2193
01:47:16,840 --> 01:47:20,440
a historian and that was kind of
where his his focus was. 

2194
01:47:20,640 --> 01:47:23,560
His family didn't like him that 
much because he was too honest 

2195
01:47:23,560 --> 01:47:25,080
in his writings, historical 
writings. 

2196
01:47:25,080 --> 01:47:27,880
He wasn't like favoring to his 
own family. 

2197
01:47:28,200 --> 01:47:31,720
He more just told the truth and 
they didn't really like that, 

2198
01:47:32,320 --> 01:47:34,440
which kind of made him unpopular
with his own within his own 

2199
01:47:34,440 --> 01:47:36,920
family. 
And as I said before, you know, 

2200
01:47:36,920 --> 01:47:40,040
there was no line of succession 
directly, but there was a bunch 

2201
01:47:40,040 --> 01:47:43,280
of people who were candidates to
be the heir to succeed Caligula.

2202
01:47:43,680 --> 01:47:48,000
And there wasn't really a custom
developed yet like this was he 

2203
01:47:48,000 --> 01:47:51,200
was the 4th emperor. 
So yes, it's customary for the 

2204
01:47:51,200 --> 01:47:54,920
Roman Emperor to choose his 
heir, but that custom was brand 

2205
01:47:54,920 --> 01:47:57,240
new at this. 
Point even sometimes the custom 

2206
01:47:57,240 --> 01:48:01,160
still takes time to develop all 
its protocols and etiquettes and

2207
01:48:01,160 --> 01:48:04,000
yeah, trappings, traditions and 
so on. 

2208
01:48:04,240 --> 01:48:07,160
And but Roman adoption was well 
established at that point. 

2209
01:48:07,160 --> 01:48:09,320
So even you could adopt people 
into the imperial family, you 

2210
01:48:09,320 --> 01:48:11,480
could adopt people into a noble 
patrician family. 

2211
01:48:11,480 --> 01:48:14,640
So why not the imperial family. 
Most of the show is flashbacks 

2212
01:48:14,640 --> 01:48:17,000
then of course because he's 
telling the story of his family 

2213
01:48:17,000 --> 01:48:18,720
and his own history. 
So and it's start, it's 

2214
01:48:18,720 --> 01:48:21,080
basically the the time period is
just after Caesar's 

2215
01:48:21,080 --> 01:48:24,920
assassination to his own reign 
which of course 4th emperor. 

2216
01:48:24,920 --> 01:48:29,600
So we're talking about you know 
about 100 years span everything 

2217
01:48:29,600 --> 01:48:31,880
in between Augustus reign was 
really long. 

2218
01:48:32,320 --> 01:48:36,960
It was a 13 episode miniseries. 
It aired back in 1976 to 1977. 

2219
01:48:37,160 --> 01:48:40,000
The books were written start 
starting back in 1934. 

2220
01:48:40,000 --> 01:48:44,760
So quite a while ago. 
George himself says that George 

2221
01:48:44,760 --> 01:48:48,640
Baker, who played the actor, who
was the actor for the the role 

2222
01:48:48,640 --> 01:48:54,040
of Tiberius, who was the 2nd 
Roman Emperor and was, you know,

2223
01:48:54,600 --> 01:48:57,120
Claudius, was around Tiberius a 
lot. 

2224
01:48:57,480 --> 01:49:01,120
George says that Tiberius is a 
big influence on Stannis quote. 

2225
01:49:01,360 --> 01:49:05,160
Baker was one of the unsung 
heroes of I, Claudius. 

2226
01:49:05,440 --> 01:49:09,480
Derek Jacoby and Sean Phillips 
got an incredible amount of 

2227
01:49:09,480 --> 01:49:13,560
praise for their portrayals of 
Claudius and Livia deservedly, 

2228
01:49:13,720 --> 01:49:16,920
while Brian Blessed and John 
Hurt were already well 

2229
01:49:16,920 --> 01:49:20,560
established and well recognized.
But I never felt Baker got 

2230
01:49:20,560 --> 01:49:23,320
nearly enough attention for his 
Tiberius. 

2231
01:49:23,720 --> 01:49:28,000
A thankless role since the 
character was so unlikable, but 

2232
01:49:28,000 --> 01:49:30,360
one that he performed 
brilliantly. 

2233
01:49:30,760 --> 01:49:34,920
There's a lot of his Tiberius in
my Stannis, for what it's worth.

2234
01:49:35,400 --> 01:49:38,400
George would later add that 
Stannis is righteous and 

2235
01:49:38,400 --> 01:49:40,200
Tiberius isn't. 
That's one major difference 

2236
01:49:40,200 --> 01:49:43,440
there, as Tiberius isn't like 
about doing the right thing. 

2237
01:49:43,440 --> 01:49:47,040
He was more about doing things 
and he was aggrieved. 

2238
01:49:47,440 --> 01:49:50,080
He fought a lot of battles, 
fought a lot of wars for his 

2239
01:49:50,080 --> 01:49:53,400
family and didn't think he got 
enough praise for it, didn't get

2240
01:49:53,400 --> 01:49:55,240
thanked enough, was very bitter 
about it. 

2241
01:49:55,600 --> 01:49:58,080
Does sound like Stannis. 
That's that's familiar for sure.

2242
01:49:58,080 --> 01:49:59,360
I. 
Wonder if Stephen Delaney is 

2243
01:49:59,360 --> 01:50:00,800
aware of this. 
I wonder if he watched I, 

2244
01:50:00,800 --> 01:50:02,640
Claudius to to play Stannis. 
You. 

2245
01:50:02,640 --> 01:50:03,880
Know it's possible, Stephen 
Delaney said. 

2246
01:50:03,880 --> 01:50:06,440
He was very confused about his, 
about Stannis, about his role. 

2247
01:50:06,440 --> 01:50:09,320
He's like, I don't, I don't 
understand this character, so 

2248
01:50:10,040 --> 01:50:14,280
that might have helped. 
So here's a quote from I, 

2249
01:50:14,280 --> 01:50:16,040
Claudius, the book the short 
one. 

2250
01:50:16,200 --> 01:50:21,080
Tiberius never gave his men a 
smile or a word of praise, and 

2251
01:50:21,080 --> 01:50:24,000
often overmarched and overworked
them. 

2252
01:50:24,400 --> 01:50:29,160
Let them hate me, he once said. 
So long as they obey me. 

2253
01:50:29,200 --> 01:50:31,400
You could definitely hear 
Stannis saying that I'm pretty 

2254
01:50:31,400 --> 01:50:32,840
much. 
Stannis has said that, like, 

2255
01:50:32,880 --> 01:50:35,320
just just in different, slightly
different words, right. 

2256
01:50:35,880 --> 01:50:37,680
Tywin and a few other leaders 
are like that too. 

2257
01:50:37,680 --> 01:50:39,720
But you can see why George 
specifically singled out Stannis

2258
01:50:39,720 --> 01:50:42,040
is the one who most fits that. 
Nina also points out that the 

2259
01:50:42,040 --> 01:50:45,760
story of Sarah Targaryen is very
similar to Augustus and Julia 

2260
01:50:45,760 --> 01:50:48,560
from I, Claudius, because 
Augustus was a lot like Jehari's

2261
01:50:48,800 --> 01:50:53,520
sexually conservative, wanted 
his daughters to be all chaste 

2262
01:50:53,520 --> 01:50:56,480
and virtuous. 
And so did Augustus want that 

2263
01:50:56,480 --> 01:50:58,960
about Julia. 
And Julia was not about it, just

2264
01:50:58,960 --> 01:51:01,400
like Sarah was not about it. 
There's like, Nah, I want to. 

2265
01:51:01,400 --> 01:51:03,280
I want to do my thing. 
I want to be. 

2266
01:51:03,720 --> 01:51:05,280
I want to get out there and have
some fun. 

2267
01:51:05,280 --> 01:51:08,240
And Augustus and Jeharis didn't 
like that. 

2268
01:51:09,080 --> 01:51:11,480
So overall, I, Claudius is 
absolutely jam packed full of 

2269
01:51:11,480 --> 01:51:14,760
intrigue, violence, ambition, 
powerful people doing callous 

2270
01:51:14,760 --> 01:51:16,920
things. 
And of course, incest. 

2271
01:51:16,920 --> 01:51:19,600
Yes, you know, there's of course
there's incest. 

2272
01:51:19,680 --> 01:51:22,080
We've talked about the Accursed 
kings of bajillion times on the 

2273
01:51:22,080 --> 01:51:25,200
show for good reason, and George
loves it. 

2274
01:51:25,240 --> 01:51:27,800
He's called the Accursed Kings 
the French, I Claudius. 

2275
01:51:27,800 --> 01:51:31,080
So there you go. 
Nice, nice comparison. 

2276
01:51:31,080 --> 01:51:34,760
But two things that he loves. 
He says he's seen I, Claudius at

2277
01:51:34,760 --> 01:51:37,440
least 20 times. 
The last time maybe being during

2278
01:51:37,440 --> 01:51:38,680
COVID, he definitely said he 
watched. 

2279
01:51:38,680 --> 01:51:40,960
During COVID, he found out that 
one of his assistants hadn't 

2280
01:51:40,960 --> 01:51:44,120
seen it, so they watched it all 
together. 

2281
01:51:45,080 --> 01:51:48,520
Yeah, that's often how you end 
up seeing something 20 times is 

2282
01:51:48,520 --> 01:51:50,840
you're like, what? 
You haven't seen that? 

2283
01:51:51,040 --> 01:51:54,280
Let's watch it together. 
And you get to vicariously live 

2284
01:51:54,280 --> 01:51:58,320
through someone else, which is 
one of my favorite experiences 

2285
01:51:58,560 --> 01:52:01,720
I've ever had, which is just 
reliving my favorite shows or 

2286
01:52:01,720 --> 01:52:05,280
someone else love it. 
It's also worth noting George 

2287
01:52:05,280 --> 01:52:08,240
did a lot of work in TV, so the 
idea that he would have been 

2288
01:52:08,240 --> 01:52:10,240
influenced by TV is not 
surprising. 

2289
01:52:10,360 --> 01:52:14,640
TV shows have writers and they 
also get to incorporate acting 

2290
01:52:14,640 --> 01:52:18,200
and editing and all these other 
elements of, I don't know, art. 

2291
01:52:18,560 --> 01:52:22,040
So the the idea that he would be
influenced by TV shows as much 

2292
01:52:22,040 --> 01:52:26,160
as books doesn't surprise me. 
And I think it's good, you know,

2293
01:52:26,160 --> 01:52:29,880
he gets a better feel for how to
organize this story and put 

2294
01:52:29,880 --> 01:52:32,800
imagery on screen. 
And it's not surprising that his

2295
01:52:32,800 --> 01:52:35,160
shows trans. 
His His books translate well to 

2296
01:52:35,160 --> 01:52:38,040
shows because, at least 
subconsciously, he's presenting 

2297
01:52:38,040 --> 01:52:41,440
it the way that we have for 
generations been presented. 

2298
01:52:41,440 --> 01:52:43,560
Literature, you know. 
Yeah, yeah, I agree with that. 

2299
01:52:43,720 --> 01:52:46,880
Well said so, And he says it 
still holds up after all this 

2300
01:52:46,880 --> 01:52:47,760
time. 
He says it's still worth 

2301
01:52:47,760 --> 01:52:50,680
watching because what makes it 
good is the writing and the 

2302
01:52:50,680 --> 01:52:52,240
acting. 
Yeah, there's like nothing to do

2303
01:52:52,240 --> 01:52:54,600
it all with production. 
It's a it's a production wise, 

2304
01:52:54,600 --> 01:52:57,000
it's bottom of the barrel. 
But he says. 

2305
01:52:57,000 --> 01:52:58,600
It's like a play. 
It's like they're just filming a

2306
01:52:58,640 --> 01:53:00,480
play, exactly. 
Like he says, you can see like 

2307
01:53:00,480 --> 01:53:04,000
the columns move and flap in the
air when people pass them by. 

2308
01:53:04,000 --> 01:53:06,560
And you know, because it's just 
a stage, it is a stage 

2309
01:53:06,600 --> 01:53:09,360
production, but it doesn't 
matter what the acting is. 

2310
01:53:09,360 --> 01:53:12,600
Just so good that who cares? 
And and you know, I I get that. 

2311
01:53:12,600 --> 01:53:16,560
So I have seen it technically, 
but I was so young when I saw it

2312
01:53:16,560 --> 01:53:18,440
that I remember so little of it.
I'm going to have to check it 

2313
01:53:18,440 --> 01:53:20,680
out again. 13 episodes again, 
folks. 

2314
01:53:20,680 --> 01:53:22,000
It's pretty easy to find, 
apparently. 

2315
01:53:22,080 --> 01:53:24,520
Anyway, there's a great little 
point here too. 

2316
01:53:24,520 --> 01:53:28,560
George's love of I, Claudius 
expands into his personal life 

2317
01:53:28,560 --> 01:53:29,880
in another way. 
Here's a quote. 

2318
01:53:30,040 --> 01:53:32,120
This is from our interview with 
George. 

2319
01:53:32,120 --> 01:53:36,800
To be clear as well, I mentioned
I, Claudius that I loved, so we 

2320
01:53:36,800 --> 01:53:40,880
had a cat named Augustus and we 
had a cat named Caligula, which 

2321
01:53:40,880 --> 01:53:43,440
of course is Roman for little 
boots. 

2322
01:53:43,800 --> 01:53:47,200
Paris. 
Paris is not as big a fan of 

2323
01:53:47,200 --> 01:53:51,320
Rome as I am and refused to call
him Caligula. 

2324
01:53:51,680 --> 01:53:56,560
She always called him Boots, but
Augustus and Caligula, sadly, 

2325
01:53:57,000 --> 01:54:00,400
are both gone. 
Although Sid, my assistant, 

2326
01:54:00,400 --> 01:54:03,120
who's been coming and going, 
that's the one he watched 

2327
01:54:03,200 --> 01:54:05,200
Claudius with to be. 
Clearly, clearly had an 

2328
01:54:05,240 --> 01:54:06,560
influence on her given his next 
part. 

2329
01:54:07,280 --> 01:54:13,000
Without any inspiration from me,
completely independently, she 

2330
01:54:13,120 --> 01:54:18,400
has a cat named Caligula and a 
cat named Claudius, and that was

2331
01:54:18,400 --> 01:54:21,800
where I was going. 
I wanted to name our next cat 

2332
01:54:21,800 --> 01:54:24,080
Claudius. 
I wanted to name a cat, 

2333
01:54:24,080 --> 01:54:28,160
Messalina, for his wife. 
Paris threw down the gauntlet. 

2334
01:54:28,320 --> 01:54:32,720
Said No, you've had your Romans.
Now it's my turn to name the 

2335
01:54:32,720 --> 01:54:34,160
cat. 
You had your Romans. 

2336
01:54:34,320 --> 01:54:35,720
She went with a bunch of Irish 
names. 

2337
01:54:35,720 --> 01:54:39,160
She likes her Irish history too.
He should have said she put her 

2338
01:54:39,160 --> 01:54:44,800
boot down and she put her 
caligulas down and said no. 

2339
01:54:45,200 --> 01:54:47,640
Yeah, Paris didn't want her cats
named after all these awful 

2340
01:54:47,640 --> 01:54:48,640
people. 
Like, we just got through 

2341
01:54:48,640 --> 01:54:50,760
telling you. 
Like these were intrigue, 

2342
01:54:50,760 --> 01:54:55,640
violence, murder, incest, Yeah. 
This is heroic figures for her 

2343
01:54:55,640 --> 01:54:58,840
cat names. 
Yeah, Irish women and whatnot. 

2344
01:54:58,840 --> 01:55:01,680
Yeah, we've met SIDS, Roman 
Cats, we. 

2345
01:55:02,080 --> 01:55:03,680
Have. 
Yeah, they're they're 

2346
01:55:03,680 --> 01:55:05,840
bloodthirsty. 
You know, they came right at. 

2347
01:55:06,800 --> 01:55:09,440
Us. 
Oh, I see in the chat. 

2348
01:55:09,440 --> 01:55:12,000
April May. 
Hey, I had a cat named Caligula.

2349
01:55:12,440 --> 01:55:14,880
Little boots, I mean. 
I've seen lots of cats named 

2350
01:55:14,880 --> 01:55:17,920
boots too, because they often 
cats often have boots. 

2351
01:55:17,920 --> 01:55:20,200
They're they're fur, it's not 
iron. 

2352
01:55:20,440 --> 01:55:23,240
So, like, it makes sense to me. 
Whether all of these cats had 

2353
01:55:23,240 --> 01:55:26,120
boots or not, I don't know, but 
it it makes sense. 

2354
01:55:26,440 --> 01:55:28,720
We have, yeah. 
Two of our four cats have boots.

2355
01:55:28,720 --> 01:55:31,600
So yeah, we don't. 
We're all about the boots. 

2356
01:55:31,680 --> 01:55:36,400
Here's a great quote from George
again about I, Claudius that 

2357
01:55:36,400 --> 01:55:38,400
includes and A Song of Ice and 
Fire comparison. 

2358
01:55:38,480 --> 01:55:43,160
It includes Patrick Stewart with
hair in a minor role in a very 

2359
01:55:43,160 --> 01:55:45,800
young John Hurt and things like 
that. 

2360
01:55:46,000 --> 01:55:49,360
And it captures all of, you 
know, all of the reign of 

2361
01:55:49,360 --> 01:55:54,720
Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula and
of course Augustus's wife Livia,

2362
01:55:54,960 --> 01:55:59,240
who's portrayed very, you know, 
she's like a smarter version of 

2363
01:55:59,240 --> 01:56:03,960
Cersing. 
But it's a great show the but 

2364
01:56:03,960 --> 01:56:07,000
the point is, it's framed 
because when you come into the 

2365
01:56:07,000 --> 01:56:10,080
show, you see the old Claudius, 
he's emperor now. 

2366
01:56:10,360 --> 01:56:15,000
He's in his old age, but he's 
writing the secret history of 

2367
01:56:15,000 --> 01:56:18,480
his family to pass down the real
story of what happened. 

2368
01:56:18,480 --> 01:56:21,760
And you know, he opens every 
episode writing it, and then you

2369
01:56:21,760 --> 01:56:23,760
see the flashback, you see the 
episode. 

2370
01:56:24,120 --> 01:56:28,360
So all of the episodes are 
framed by old Claudius. 

2371
01:56:28,480 --> 01:56:31,880
Actually, the first two, I think
he's not even born yet but old 

2372
01:56:31,880 --> 01:56:35,720
Claudius was writing about that 
and he also brings this up in 

2373
01:56:35,720 --> 01:56:41,920
his interview with us or our 
interview with him, in which he 

2374
01:56:41,960 --> 01:56:45,480
he compared it to how he wanted 
that to be the framing device 

2375
01:56:45,480 --> 01:56:48,800
for House of the Dragon. 
That same type of thing. 

2376
01:56:48,800 --> 01:56:51,560
He he you would have Arch 
Maester Gildane telling that 

2377
01:56:51,560 --> 01:56:54,560
story, telling the story he he 
was quite fond of it. 

2378
01:56:54,720 --> 01:56:57,320
And you know, he mentioned not 
not many things do that these 

2379
01:56:57,320 --> 01:56:58,280
days. 
Yeah, he said that. 

2380
01:56:58,280 --> 01:57:00,560
That style is falling out of 
favor in Hollywood. 

2381
01:57:00,560 --> 01:57:02,880
It used to be more common that 
framing device, but it's not so 

2382
01:57:02,880 --> 01:57:04,800
popular now. 
Wes Anderson did it with that 

2383
01:57:04,800 --> 01:57:06,400
series of short films he made 
last year. 

2384
01:57:06,440 --> 01:57:09,040
He also start off with a person 
talking about what he's going to

2385
01:57:09,040 --> 01:57:11,840
tell you. 
Those short films are all Rodol 

2386
01:57:12,040 --> 01:57:14,400
short stories, yes, for what 
it's worth as well. 

2387
01:57:14,960 --> 01:57:17,760
So if you're curious, Patrick 
Stewart played Sujanis who was 

2388
01:57:17,760 --> 01:57:21,680
the commander of the of the 
Praetorian Guard and had a 

2389
01:57:21,680 --> 01:57:26,000
Kristen Cole ish type role where
he moved higher up and got more 

2390
01:57:26,000 --> 01:57:29,800
and more involved in politics, 
which a bodyguard really 

2391
01:57:29,800 --> 01:57:34,800
shouldn't be doing, you know, 
But it happens, he says It's 

2392
01:57:34,800 --> 01:57:36,680
probably in his top five shows 
of all time. 

2393
01:57:36,680 --> 01:57:40,480
George does. 
It's actually number 75 on IMD 

2394
01:57:40,480 --> 01:57:44,720
BS all time top 250 voter list 
which places it a heaven 11 

2395
01:57:44,720 --> 01:57:50,200
spots ahead of HB OS Rome. 
Shout out to Kelly Vella on 

2396
01:57:50,200 --> 01:57:53,080
Tumblr. 
Nina shared her posts with me 

2397
01:57:53,080 --> 01:57:55,600
and a lot of what IA lot of this
detail came from there. 

2398
01:57:56,400 --> 01:57:58,920
This person had put together a 
lot of this in one place which 

2399
01:57:58,920 --> 01:58:00,360
made it really easy for me to 
research. 

2400
01:58:00,680 --> 01:58:02,720
I found some of it before and 
then Nina's like look all of 

2401
01:58:02,720 --> 01:58:05,400
it's here like oh look at that. 
So thanks to Kelly and thanks to

2402
01:58:05,400 --> 01:58:08,760
Nina super chat from ray ciphers
or sifers Sorry if I said that 

2403
01:58:08,760 --> 01:58:10,480
wrong. 
The headpiece Rainier is wearing

2404
01:58:10,480 --> 01:58:12,920
when she is officially made 
bysters heir looks like a Roman 

2405
01:58:12,920 --> 01:58:15,440
Stephane. 
A woman's crown scene on old 

2406
01:58:15,440 --> 01:58:16,800
coins and statues. 
Yeah I remember at the time a 

2407
01:58:16,800 --> 01:58:18,880
lot of people pointed out how 
that looked very Byzantine. 

2408
01:58:19,400 --> 01:58:22,640
Byzantine is but Roman Empire is
was. 

2409
01:58:22,640 --> 01:58:25,200
The Byzantine Empire came from 
the Roman Empire when it split 

2410
01:58:25,200 --> 01:58:28,440
in two. 
So yes later Roman period that 

2411
01:58:28,440 --> 01:58:30,560
that can be considered. 
I agree. 

2412
01:58:30,560 --> 01:58:35,480
Good catch Ray. 
Let's move on to the HB OS Rome 

2413
01:58:36,400 --> 01:58:42,040
in 2005 in in Albuquerque. 
A question was submitted by 

2414
01:58:42,040 --> 01:58:47,760
Oathkeeper and to George and 
according to this rundown, 

2415
01:58:47,760 --> 01:58:50,200
George discussed the HBO series 
Rome and said he hadn't watched 

2416
01:58:50,200 --> 01:58:52,840
the finale but he had a feeling 
Caesar might die. 

2417
01:58:52,920 --> 01:58:56,560
You know, spoiler, he demands 
that everyone get HBO because of

2418
01:58:56,560 --> 01:59:00,320
the quality of their shows. 
He compared Rome to HBCAABCS 

2419
01:59:00,320 --> 01:59:02,720
Empire, which he said sucked. 
Same story, but done. 

2420
01:59:02,720 --> 01:59:07,000
Really stupid. 
George actually wasn't as big a 

2421
01:59:07,000 --> 01:59:10,520
fan of season 2 of Rome because 
it was very rushed, which it was

2422
01:59:10,520 --> 01:59:12,120
very rushed. 
They had to wrap it up. 

2423
01:59:12,160 --> 01:59:14,200
They piled a bunch of history 
into a short period of time 

2424
01:59:14,200 --> 01:59:16,800
because they knew the show was 
getting cancelled, so that's too

2425
01:59:16,800 --> 01:59:19,440
bad. 
Anyway, a similar question also 

2426
01:59:19,440 --> 01:59:22,040
in 2005, asked by Science 
Fiction Weekly. 

2427
01:59:22,440 --> 01:59:24,800
He was asked about the potential
of bringing A Song of Ice and 

2428
01:59:24,800 --> 01:59:28,320
Fire to screen. 
It would need to be HBO or 

2429
01:59:28,320 --> 01:59:31,200
something like that. 
They're doing wonderful things 

2430
01:59:31,200 --> 01:59:34,000
right now with shows like 
Deadwood and Rome. 

2431
01:59:34,720 --> 01:59:36,080
Indeed. 
Deadwood by the. 

2432
01:59:36,200 --> 01:59:37,360
Way yeah. 
Deadwood is really good. 

2433
01:59:37,800 --> 01:59:41,880
I have recently rewatched Rome 
personally like as in finished 

2434
01:59:41,880 --> 01:59:43,960
it and do that 2024 started in 
2023. 

2435
01:59:44,480 --> 01:59:46,720
I've probably seen it about four
times, which is a lot, but not 

2436
01:59:46,720 --> 01:59:48,400
as many times as George has seen
I, Claudius. 

2437
01:59:49,200 --> 01:59:52,280
And now while I, Claudius mostly
covers the 1st 4 emperors and 

2438
01:59:52,280 --> 01:59:55,560
the end of Caesar or the death 
of Caesar, Rome covered the time

2439
01:59:56,480 --> 01:59:59,960
like focused on before Caesar's 
death and just after it. 

2440
01:59:59,960 --> 02:00:04,320
So it's a lot of overlap. 
Octavian is in both meaning 

2441
02:00:04,480 --> 02:00:07,920
Augustus, so there's a lot of 
overlap Livia. 

2442
02:00:08,680 --> 02:00:09,960
Julia come. 
Other characters. 

2443
02:00:10,120 --> 02:00:12,680
So of course it also has Rome, 
HBO's Rome. 

2444
02:00:12,680 --> 02:00:14,600
A lot of you, a lot more of you 
will have seen it than I, 

2445
02:00:14,600 --> 02:00:16,720
Claudius. 
But so you know, and and 

2446
02:00:16,800 --> 02:00:18,560
wouldn't be surprised if you 
haven't seen it, that it has 

2447
02:00:18,560 --> 02:00:22,040
lots of intrigue, family drama, 
violence, ambitiousness, 

2448
02:00:22,520 --> 02:00:24,280
powerful people doing callous 
things again. 

2449
02:00:24,280 --> 02:00:27,160
And yes, incest. 
Both shows have incest. 

2450
02:00:27,160 --> 02:00:28,200
Yep. 
No Dragons. 

2451
02:00:28,280 --> 02:00:31,080
Though no Dragons, No, no, 
unfortunately, but but lots of 

2452
02:00:31,080 --> 02:00:33,240
wolves, You know, the capital 
lion Wolf being such an 

2453
02:00:33,240 --> 02:00:36,760
important symbol of Rome. 
The one who raised who raised 

2454
02:00:36,760 --> 02:00:38,640
the she Wolf who raised Romulus 
and Remus. 

2455
02:00:39,000 --> 02:00:41,360
She Wolves of Winterfell, you 
know, Etcetera. 

2456
02:00:41,920 --> 02:00:44,760
Here is another quote. 
This one's pretty fun. 

2457
02:00:44,760 --> 02:00:48,000
This is George talking about the
crossovers between his show and 

2458
02:00:48,000 --> 02:00:50,880
Rome. 
Game of Thrones is already using

2459
02:00:50,880 --> 02:00:54,880
two actors from Rome, Kieran 
Hines and Tobias Menzies. 

2460
02:00:55,200 --> 02:00:59,320
But the casting on that show was
marvelous, and I am a huge fan 

2461
02:00:59,320 --> 02:01:03,360
of many of the other actors who 
appeared with them, including 

2462
02:01:03,360 --> 02:01:08,520
Ray Stevenson, Polly Walker, Max
Perkis, Carrie Condon, Ian 

2463
02:01:08,520 --> 02:01:13,920
McNeese, Indira Varma, David 
Bamber, and yes, James Purifoy 

2464
02:01:14,000 --> 02:01:17,000
and Kevin Mckidd. 
Whether any of these actors will

2465
02:01:17,000 --> 02:01:21,280
ever appear in Game of Thrones, 
well, that's not up to me, and 

2466
02:01:21,280 --> 02:01:24,760
it's not that easy anyway. 
These are working actors, many 

2467
02:01:24,760 --> 02:01:28,840
of them have other jobs and we 
already have a huge cast, so 

2468
02:01:28,840 --> 02:01:32,640
budget is always a concern. 
So yeah, Heinz was Mance and 

2469
02:01:32,640 --> 02:01:35,880
Julius Caesar as we said earlier
Tobias Menzies was Brutus and Ed

2470
02:01:35,880 --> 02:01:40,240
Muir Tully and and so he said I 
never, I know, I won't know if 

2471
02:01:40,240 --> 02:01:42,320
anyone else will ever be in the 
show And and one of them did 

2472
02:01:42,320 --> 02:01:45,320
Indira Varma was in Rome and did
end up in Game of Thrones. 

2473
02:01:45,520 --> 02:01:49,360
She was Ellaria. 
She was Niobe in in Rome, and 

2474
02:01:49,360 --> 02:01:54,440
she was Kevin Mckidd's wife. 
He was Lucius Varinas. 

2475
02:01:54,760 --> 02:01:58,400
Now, Kevin Mckidd was a very, 
very popular fan cast as John 

2476
02:01:58,400 --> 02:02:00,840
Connington, The seething rage of
Varinas. 

2477
02:02:00,840 --> 02:02:03,160
He's really good at playing a 
constantly angry guy, which is 

2478
02:02:03,160 --> 02:02:06,080
perfect for John Connington. 
And he's a big muscular redhead,

2479
02:02:06,080 --> 02:02:07,640
which is also what John 
Connington is. 

2480
02:02:07,640 --> 02:02:10,160
It was so perfect. 
And that fan cast has endured 

2481
02:02:10,160 --> 02:02:12,080
over the years because nothing 
ever came to replace it. 

2482
02:02:12,080 --> 02:02:15,320
No actual actor was cast to be 
John Connington. 

2483
02:02:15,320 --> 02:02:19,880
So that remains in our memory as
a perfect casting that was never

2484
02:02:19,880 --> 02:02:23,480
like overtaken by someone else 
being on the show. 

2485
02:02:23,480 --> 02:02:26,000
He was never cast at all. 
I'm curious, those of you with a

2486
02:02:26,000 --> 02:02:29,240
fandom, how how many of you see 
Kevin Mckidd when you picture 

2487
02:02:29,240 --> 02:02:31,800
John Coddington, 'cause I 
definitely do. 

2488
02:02:32,120 --> 02:02:37,000
It was I I saw I honestly, there
were very few alternative fan 

2489
02:02:37,000 --> 02:02:40,440
casts in like gift sets, edits 
on Tumblr and stuff Back in the 

2490
02:02:40,440 --> 02:02:42,680
day. 
It was all Kevin Mckidd. 

2491
02:02:42,680 --> 02:02:45,840
Everyone was agreed. 
It was kind of amazing. 

2492
02:02:46,200 --> 02:02:50,920
Yeah, Likewise, Ray Stevenson 
was a very popular fan cast for 

2493
02:02:50,920 --> 02:02:54,040
Victorian and it and it looked 
even more perfect in hindsight 

2494
02:02:54,040 --> 02:02:56,600
because he was amazing as 
Blackbeard in Black Sails. 

2495
02:02:56,600 --> 02:02:59,240
And be like, yeah, just give him
a different costume with that 

2496
02:02:59,240 --> 02:03:02,480
same beard, maybe add a little 
Gray to it and unleash him. 

2497
02:03:02,720 --> 02:03:05,720
You know it was, yeah. 
Aziz and I were talking about 

2498
02:03:05,720 --> 02:03:07,880
this before the episode and I 
was saying, yeah, Ray Stevenson 

2499
02:03:07,880 --> 02:03:10,120
was super popular. 
I did see a lot of that. 

2500
02:03:10,360 --> 02:03:13,600
But for me, when I picture 
Victorian, I just don't even 

2501
02:03:13,600 --> 02:03:15,840
picture a face. 
I picture like the helm. 

2502
02:03:15,840 --> 02:03:19,200
I picture the big beard. 
I just, I picture, as I realized

2503
02:03:19,200 --> 02:03:21,120
a different Blackbeard a little 
bit. 

2504
02:03:21,120 --> 02:03:24,320
I picture in the beginning of 
our flag means death when 

2505
02:03:24,320 --> 02:03:26,840
there's just like Blackbeard 
with the glowing eyes. 

2506
02:03:26,840 --> 02:03:29,000
You. 
Know there's just like no face. 

2507
02:03:29,000 --> 02:03:31,880
And that's kind of my visual for
Vic. 

2508
02:03:33,200 --> 02:03:35,640
Yeah, I picture Victorian's kind
of faceless, too, because I 

2509
02:03:35,640 --> 02:03:38,120
picture him in his armor and 
that would cover at pretty much 

2510
02:03:38,120 --> 02:03:39,560
everything. 
So you'd like the details of his

2511
02:03:39,560 --> 02:03:41,200
face. 
I would picture like, a beard 

2512
02:03:41,200 --> 02:03:43,920
emerging from it, but like, 
yeah, his actual face would be 

2513
02:03:43,920 --> 02:03:44,920
concealed. 
That's cool. 

2514
02:03:44,920 --> 02:03:46,320
I try to not think about 
Victorian. 

2515
02:03:48,400 --> 02:03:52,240
Not mentioned by George as well 
as Indira Varma is James 

2516
02:03:52,240 --> 02:03:54,680
Faulkner. 
James Faulkner? 

2517
02:03:54,680 --> 02:03:56,960
Well, he wouldn't have mentioned
James Faulkner in this mention 

2518
02:03:56,960 --> 02:03:58,960
because James Faulkner was not 
in the showroom. 

2519
02:03:59,600 --> 02:04:04,320
But he was in I, Claudius as 
Herod Agrippa, and he was then 

2520
02:04:04,320 --> 02:04:06,320
Randall Tarly in Game of 
Thrones. 

2521
02:04:06,320 --> 02:04:09,280
So he's the only actor I know of
that was in both Game of Thrones

2522
02:04:09,280 --> 02:04:12,040
and I, Claudius. 
And damn, wasn't he good as 

2523
02:04:12,040 --> 02:04:12,880
Randall Charlie? 
That was. 

2524
02:04:13,040 --> 02:04:14,960
How long was he back in I, 
Claudius? 

2525
02:04:15,360 --> 02:04:17,280
I wonder how young he was back 
in I, Claudius. 

2526
02:04:17,280 --> 02:04:20,040
He was pretty, yeah, pretty 
young cause Faulkner is 75 now. 

2527
02:04:20,040 --> 02:04:22,720
Yeah, yeah, I looked like I just
saw that last night. 

2528
02:04:22,840 --> 02:04:23,800
He's still alive. 
Yeah. 

2529
02:04:23,800 --> 02:04:27,200
Herod Agrippa was a Roman, was 
half Roman, half Jewish, 

2530
02:04:27,600 --> 02:04:30,920
historical final king of Judea. 
Interesting character in the 

2531
02:04:30,920 --> 02:04:32,320
show as well and in in real 
life. 

2532
02:04:32,880 --> 02:04:35,400
One of Rome's showrunners was 
Bruno Heller. 

2533
02:04:35,400 --> 02:04:38,080
He was one of the writers and 
showrunners of Rome on HBO. 

2534
02:04:38,240 --> 02:04:42,600
He is now, or was developing the
Sea Snake slash 9 Voyages show. 

2535
02:04:42,600 --> 02:04:44,800
I don't know if he's still 
involved in it because it's been

2536
02:04:44,800 --> 02:04:48,120
switched to an animated version.
The development and that 

2537
02:04:48,120 --> 02:04:49,080
doesn't. 
I don't know if he's still 

2538
02:04:49,080 --> 02:04:52,080
involved, but either way, that 
might be another connection from

2539
02:04:52,080 --> 02:04:53,520
from Rome into Game of Thrones 
stuff. 

2540
02:04:53,720 --> 02:04:56,320
Now, earlier I said that George 
didn't like how season 2 of Rome

2541
02:04:56,320 --> 02:04:57,560
ended. 
He said he'd have to watch I 

2542
02:04:57,560 --> 02:04:59,440
Claudius again to get the taste 
out of his mouth. 

2543
02:04:59,680 --> 02:05:02,320
The ending was rushed, which 
unfortunately is kind of 

2544
02:05:02,320 --> 02:05:06,560
foreshadowing for what would 
happen to his show as well. 

2545
02:05:06,560 --> 02:05:08,480
Ending was was rushed. 
Yep. 

2546
02:05:09,120 --> 02:05:11,080
And a lot of people felt like 
they needed to get the taste out

2547
02:05:11,080 --> 02:05:12,960
of their mouth by reading the 
books or something. 

2548
02:05:12,960 --> 02:05:15,840
But I don't know. 
Your mileage may vary, but 

2549
02:05:15,840 --> 02:05:18,360
that's certainly that attitude 
was out there at the time. 

2550
02:05:18,440 --> 02:05:23,000
So as I said, surely we missed 
some Roman influence. 

2551
02:05:23,000 --> 02:05:24,920
There's, as you can see, it's a 
huge topic. 

2552
02:05:24,920 --> 02:05:28,120
Sean went so far as to say it 
could be a whole podcast, not an

2553
02:05:28,120 --> 02:05:32,440
episode, a whole podcast. 
So multidirectional, we couldn't

2554
02:05:32,440 --> 02:05:35,160
have caught it all. 
So if you caught something or 

2555
02:05:35,160 --> 02:05:37,920
if, especially if you're doing a
reread, if you're in the midst 

2556
02:05:37,920 --> 02:05:39,760
of a reread us right now, we're 
about to start one. 

2557
02:05:39,760 --> 02:05:41,960
Your mind may be freshly primed 
for this. 

2558
02:05:42,320 --> 02:05:45,280
Just keep your eyes peeled. 
Keep your mind open for Roman 

2559
02:05:45,280 --> 02:05:48,480
influences or other influences. 
We love to collect influences 

2560
02:05:48,480 --> 02:05:51,440
and when we have enough of them,
we make an episode. 

2561
02:05:51,920 --> 02:05:56,280
This one was easy in terms of 
how much material there was. 

2562
02:05:56,280 --> 02:05:57,680
Not necessarily easy to write it
all. 

2563
02:05:57,680 --> 02:05:59,960
It was a long document and had 
to put a lot of things in order,

2564
02:05:59,960 --> 02:06:01,800
had a lot of organization, a lot
of reading, a lot of 

2565
02:06:01,800 --> 02:06:04,520
researching, but it wasn't hard 
to find things to talk about. 

2566
02:06:04,880 --> 02:06:08,480
There's a lot there. 
So if you also want to send us 

2567
02:06:08,760 --> 02:06:12,440
influences from other topics 
that you think George is is in 

2568
02:06:12,440 --> 02:06:15,000
his wheelhouse. 
We like doing episodes like this

2569
02:06:15,000 --> 02:06:18,240
and so do you all because you 
voted for this one, topics Moot 

2570
02:06:18,240 --> 02:06:21,400
chose this episode. 
So thank you all for choosing a 

2571
02:06:21,400 --> 02:06:23,800
topic that I really enjoyed 
digging into. 

2572
02:06:24,480 --> 02:06:27,000
Yeah, send your questions and 
thoughts if you have them, not 

2573
02:06:27,000 --> 02:06:29,800
just on this episode, but on any
of our past topics or future 

2574
02:06:29,800 --> 02:06:32,760
topics. 
Sean, you have picked out a 

2575
02:06:33,000 --> 02:06:37,240
group of patron supporters whose
names stand out to you. 

2576
02:06:37,240 --> 02:06:39,920
Why don't you regale us with 
these fun names? 

2577
02:06:40,240 --> 02:06:43,120
As always, I've got a a couple 
old and a couple new. 

2578
02:06:43,560 --> 02:06:47,480
We've got the Bastard of the Bay
of Seals, a friend of the 

2579
02:06:47,480 --> 02:06:50,440
Night's Watch, commanding a ship
made entirely of Weirwood. 

2580
02:06:50,960 --> 02:06:52,480
By the way, That's cool as hell.
Derek. 

2581
02:06:52,480 --> 02:06:56,800
Dark first sword of House 
Blackfire Lord Donaris Poolar, 

2582
02:06:56,880 --> 02:07:00,600
head of House Poolar, Lord of 
Amora and Warden of the South, 

2583
02:07:00,840 --> 02:07:05,440
Sir Terran of House Dalvin 
Woods, Witch L And finally, 

2584
02:07:05,480 --> 02:07:09,280
fellow Atlanton Lord Chuck Liz, 
Captain of the Droman 

2585
02:07:09,280 --> 02:07:12,400
Nightblood, Destroyer of Evil. 
Is it Chuck? 

2586
02:07:12,400 --> 02:07:13,560
Liz. 
Chuck Laz. 

2587
02:07:13,800 --> 02:07:16,400
We usually say Chuck Laz because
his name is Lazaro. 

2588
02:07:16,960 --> 02:07:19,280
Yeah, so cool. 
Yes, thank you. 

2589
02:07:19,280 --> 02:07:22,640
You can also get a fun nickname 
like this by signing up to join 

2590
02:07:22,640 --> 02:07:25,640
us on patreon.com/history of 
Westeros. 

2591
02:07:25,640 --> 02:07:26,840
We really appreciate your 
support. 

2592
02:07:26,840 --> 02:07:29,480
The podcast industry has not 
been doing great lately. 

2593
02:07:29,680 --> 02:07:33,000
It had, you know, the two steps 
forward, one step back thing 

2594
02:07:33,000 --> 02:07:36,800
that a lot of rising industries 
have and we're in the step back 

2595
02:07:36,800 --> 02:07:40,440
phase right now. 
So yeah, this would be a time 

2596
02:07:40,440 --> 02:07:42,440
that your help would be even 
more appreciated than it might 

2597
02:07:42,440 --> 02:07:45,480
otherwise be. 
We will keep it going, but we 

2598
02:07:45,480 --> 02:07:48,440
would appreciate the help. 
Yes, trivia question. 

2599
02:07:48,440 --> 02:07:50,120
I started the episode with a 
trivia question. 

2600
02:07:50,120 --> 02:07:53,360
The question was what is the 
most common name in in Slaver's 

2601
02:07:53,360 --> 02:07:57,120
Bay among the Gaskari? 
The answer is Graz Dan, which I 

2602
02:07:57,120 --> 02:08:00,400
like to think of as like it's 
not, it's Dan, but with Graz 

2603
02:08:00,400 --> 02:08:02,280
added on. 
So we know the name Dan, but 

2604
02:08:02,280 --> 02:08:06,280
this is Graz Dan and it's kind 
of like Grazzi or Gracias. 

2605
02:08:06,280 --> 02:08:09,160
So it's like a thank you. 
So this is a thankful Dan, which

2606
02:08:09,160 --> 02:08:13,880
is not the vibe you get from a 
slaving society. 

2607
02:08:13,920 --> 02:08:17,080
But hey, the answer is Graz, 
Dan. 

2608
02:08:17,720 --> 02:08:20,640
So I guess we don't know who the
first Graz Dan is, we just know 

2609
02:08:20,640 --> 02:08:23,080
who the first living Graz Dan 
is. 

2610
02:08:23,080 --> 02:08:25,000
Right. 
Graz, Dan, the great, the the 

2611
02:08:25,000 --> 02:08:28,880
apparently the founder of the 
the Ghiscari empire. 

2612
02:08:28,880 --> 02:08:31,440
Kind of a Romulus figure, I 
guess, or maybe more of an 

2613
02:08:31,440 --> 02:08:33,400
Augustus depending on what kind 
of government they had before 

2614
02:08:33,400 --> 02:08:36,520
that, I don't know. 
Either way, an important figure 

2615
02:08:36,520 --> 02:08:40,440
in history from a time so far 
gone that maybe they don't even 

2616
02:08:40,440 --> 02:08:43,640
have the records of it. 
Because Olgis was destroyed by 

2617
02:08:43,640 --> 02:08:45,240
Valyria. 
That may have sacked, a lot of 

2618
02:08:45,240 --> 02:08:47,640
their records may have gone with
it, and then whatever records 

2619
02:08:47,640 --> 02:08:50,400
Valyria may have had was sacked 
even more thoroughly in the 

2620
02:08:50,400 --> 02:08:51,800
Doom. 
Whatever the truth in those 

2621
02:08:51,800 --> 02:08:54,640
records might have been, I bet 
there's still a mythology that 

2622
02:08:54,640 --> 02:08:55,800
goes along with. 
It you're right. 

2623
02:08:55,800 --> 02:09:00,040
And one that is pro Gras, Dan, 
if you're Ghiscari, certainly we

2624
02:09:00,040 --> 02:09:02,360
mentioned a lot of different 
episodes on Valyria in this one 

2625
02:09:02,360 --> 02:09:04,040
because we have a lot of 
different episodes on Valyria. 

2626
02:09:04,040 --> 02:09:07,480
We have their armies and wars. 
We have one on their just their 

2627
02:09:07,480 --> 02:09:10,000
culture. 
We have different comparisons to

2628
02:09:10,080 --> 02:09:12,080
some Greek history and stuff we 
did. 

2629
02:09:12,080 --> 02:09:13,400
We've done a lot of episodes on 
Deliria. 

2630
02:09:13,520 --> 02:09:15,040
Guess that should be one of our 
playlists. 

2631
02:09:15,400 --> 02:09:17,520
Yeah, Valyrian playlist. 
Good idea 'cause we also have it

2632
02:09:17,520 --> 02:09:19,440
on the Doom. 
The Century of Blood would be 

2633
02:09:19,440 --> 02:09:21,920
relevant to that 'cause it's 
post Valyria just after the fall

2634
02:09:21,920 --> 02:09:23,760
of it. 
Great Empire of the Dawn is pre 

2635
02:09:23,760 --> 02:09:25,960
Valyria and even that is 
somewhat relevant and it's 

2636
02:09:25,960 --> 02:09:29,400
certainly directly relevant to 
the topics today, Blackstone 

2637
02:09:29,400 --> 02:09:34,840
stuff and others. 
And that is a shorter list than 

2638
02:09:34,840 --> 02:09:38,400
often I give you all. 
But there is more of course lots

2639
02:09:38,400 --> 02:09:42,720
of episodes that I just forget 
what crossovers they have with 

2640
02:09:42,720 --> 02:09:45,120
current episodes. 
We do have, you know, over 400 

2641
02:09:45,120 --> 02:09:48,720
episodes of history of Westeros,
so I can't keep track of all of 

2642
02:09:48,720 --> 02:09:52,520
it, but I do thank you 
nonetheless for being a 

2643
02:09:52,520 --> 02:09:54,920
listener. 
I thank you for joining us and 

2644
02:09:54,920 --> 02:09:56,760
helping us out and being part of
the conversation. 

2645
02:09:56,880 --> 02:09:59,280
Thanks as well to Nina who is a 
big part of the conversation. 

2646
02:09:59,280 --> 02:10:04,240
Her notes and ideas are a huge 
part of almost every episode. 

2647
02:10:04,720 --> 02:10:07,120
Our discussions are much better 
because of her input. 

2648
02:10:07,600 --> 02:10:11,000
Thanks as well to Joey, Jesse 
Bran and Michael Klarfeld for 

2649
02:10:11,000 --> 02:10:16,720
their assistance and creativity 
with music and maps and video 

2650
02:10:16,720 --> 02:10:19,680
intros. 
That makes our show look so much

2651
02:10:19,680 --> 02:10:21,440
cooler and so much more 
professional. 

2652
02:10:21,600 --> 02:10:24,000
We will see you all next time 
for another episode. 

2653
02:10:24,520 --> 02:10:25,680
You know what to do in the 
meantime. 

2654
02:10:26,880 --> 02:10:29,840
Valar Reridis None.