Just from hearing, Prince aemon. The dragonknight, you know, he's
a big deal. I completely Fanboy doubt on
that name. The first time I saw it and it
appears very early on and then appears again and again.
And again, his name is badass without being over-the-top or
flashy at least in my opinion. But will As we'll see, badass is
pretty accurate for him, and it might even be over-the-top not
too much though, but I think it's kind of character that if
you were to make 12 of him, it would be unrealistic.
But if you have one, you know, ever and that's fine, you know,
it's like the, the Wayne Gretzky of Knighthood or the LeBron
James of Knighthood or something, I don't know.
And the name suggests he's a great warrior just from the
sound of it which of course that is accurate and prints that
sells you he's a Targaryen given the word dragons in there at
least it implies that very strongly but not a king right?
It says vague but strongly positive things about his
personality to given one of the most beloved characters in A
Song of Ice and Fire maester aemon is named after him and
indeed though, maester aemon was no Warrior will see that.
Did have a lot in common with his namesake in the personality
Department, Integrity skill and being dutiful.
Perhaps, most of all, this was a Peerless Warrior who fought with
a famous sword and will Regale. You with Tales of his duels
battles acts of Bravery of course, but perhaps more
compelling is, what happened while dark sister was sheathed,
some of you fit may find his doomed, love for narrates in the
shadow of their brother, aegon the Unworthy to be some of the
best stuff. It was a new era for House
Targaryen and Westeros in general as it transitioned to a
post draconic world and recovered from the damage
they're dancing and dying had done.
But there was quite a lot of family drama and Intrigue as
well. And that is nothing new for
House Targaryen. All this and more on today's
episode of history of Westeros podcast.
Hello and welcome everyone back for another episode.
How's it going? Shawn you Are in Targaryen red
and black as Mi indeed. You know, let me this isn't
going to be a big topic. I don't know.
I don't think I mentioned. Yeah, but this is going to be
end up being two episodes, right?
Like this enough going on here. So given that and given my
relatively unsullied perspective, I'm going to ask a
couple upfront questioner I better one.
I imagine some of the folks out there have the same question so
they'll be a good place to start one.
The time line is, I don't know, it's somewhere somewhere halfway
between dance of dragons and Robert's Rebellion that know
it's about Closer to the dance. Here's where I can put it.
He's in every book, even Fire and Blood because he was born
right at the end of it. Like, he's barely an okay.
So he was born a few years after the dance.
If I was like a generation after the dance, but I don't know.
Several Generations. Yeah.
Okay. So Robert everybody started and
about 282, 283. A man was born in 136 with dance
end of the day, I'm 31. So yeah, it's a lot closer than
the blackfyre Rebellion. If you want another like time,
like point, First one was in 196.
So that's more about the halfway point, probably okay.
Actually, we're still closer to the dance, but closer to, that
would be the third blackfyre Rebellion.
Maybe is more than halfway point or maybe the second anyway.
My follow-up is, I don't know if you had to pick two or three
beats to describe this character.
Why are we interested in him? Why is it big deal?
What are we going to talk about? Like, I don't know.
He his expedition to Adorn his youthful success as a warrior.
He one of the youngest kingsguard ever had dark sister
Stir, those are all good. Also there another thing
highlight of his life that we're going to cover that you think is
worth noting up front. Yeah, I think basically I think
his the parallels to a lot of the characters of the main story
or one of the big grabs here. He is compared tourist and Jamie
absolutely Loris. Jamie or probably the best
comparisons, probably the best comparisons but also characters
like barristan maybe a little bit Arthur Dayne.
Just all the Peerless Warriors who fought in the kingsguard but
also a few other targaryens. For me, it's the the Nares
connection that Has makes a most intriguing I think is which was
Sister Sister? Is was it romantic?
Was it not? Was it?
What? I we just don't really know what
was going on there and so it's kind of a serious, you can kind
of fill in the gaps. That's what makes him most
interesting to me. I think and it's something that
George introduces very early. This is another character, like
thoros of myr, we discussed a few weeks ago that he wasn't
bolted on later, which isn't a bad thing.
I mean, the story grows in the telling and it's fine to add
stuff. Of course, George is good at
that, but it's Maybe a little more special when it's a
character that was part of the original intent and Prince
Haman. Clearly was so yeah, as Sean
mentioned there is a lot of material here.
We intended this to be one episode as usual, but Nina and I
just wrote so much. A typical episode document for
us is minimum 13. 14 pages. Usually quite often gets into
the High Teens, this one was about 34.
Pretty clearly got outside the range of one episode and you'll
see why there is so much talk about it is does have more of a
story feel because we can cover pretty much his whole life.
Yes, there are gaps there things, we don't know.
But they aren't large gaps. Maybe they're important gaps,
but they aren't like large gaps of time where we just have no
idea. And that's great.
So shout out to our good friend, you know, her blog.
Good. Queen Ali tumblr.com is an
excellent source. Of fun material and Analysis.
The latest blog post, she has over there is hey, on Prince
aemon, the dragonknight maester aemon, talking to John, about
the difference of Duty and love and the conundrum there.
It's a major theme of John story but also A Song of Ice and Fire
in general and well maester aemon is the guy that really
levels John up there teaches him a thing or two about what Duty
and love is and how he knows about it because he was a
Targaryen and well All know that story the three times he was
tested. So it's very relevant to today's
story. A lot of Nina's thoughts are
already in the episode, but if you want more, you can get it at
good. Queen Alia Bhatt tumblr.com,
this one was voted on by patrons but it's 80.
T, git, T episode, which is the tail grew in the telling.
It's such a long thing. I had to abbreviate it.
So to to get TT games next week will do part 2.
So the episode that folks voted on for next week will actually
be in two weeks and I'll tell you what that's going to be at
the end. Also at the end, I'll give you
some suggestions. If you want to stay immersed, if
you're having a great time in Westeros and want to stay there,
well, we'll give you some suggestions on how to jump to a
related topic and have fun with that.
And of course, you'll want to tune in next week for part 2
trivia question. Prince Edmund was one of the
youngest ever to wear the white cloak to join the kingsguard.
The same is true of loras Tyrell, and especially Jaime
Lannister because Jamie was the second youngest.
Ever to wear the white cloak. But who was the youngest, who
was even younger than Jamie to join the Kings guard, even
younger than lorrison Damon as well.
Are you going to make people wait till next week?
The answer to the trivia questions and we'll have another
trivia question next week who maester aemon is mentioned in
the prologue. So the name a man appears but
it's mainstream and not print aemon, the dragonknight, but his
namesake does come brand to A Game of Thrones.
Here's the quote. The brand was going to be a
knight himself someday. One of the King's Guard old man,
said they were the finest swords in all the realm.
There were only seven of them and they wore white armor and
had no wives or children, but lived only to serve the king
brand new. All the stories, their names
were like music to him. Cerwyn of the mirror Shield,
sir, I am wed one, Prince aemon, the dragonknight the twins are
arak and Sir, Eric when brother fought so Sir, in the war, the
singers called the dance of the Dragons.
The white bull Gerold, Hightower Ser Arthur, Dayne.
The sword of the morning. Barristan the Bold, some of you
astute readers will note that, that quote was edited to remove
a spoiler from a stuffed Dragon for John's benefit.
Appreciate that. And we've had many reasons many
times to call for that. Quote to be read it, such a
great coat. Over the years, it's become one
of my favorite early quotes it Just in capulets so much about
Song of Ice and Fire. It's got Brands love for the
stories, it refers to it in song.
He says, their names are like music to him.
The names themselves are awesome.
I already told you how much the name aemon, the dragonknight
made me Fanboy out, but some of these other names here, do the
same thing. I mean, the sword of the
morning, that's cool. I mean, man, that twit like,
yeah, these are just a really well-written and it's hopeful
and tragic and over every over time, one of the reasons the
quote is, I love even more. Is because By reading all the
books, you get back story and all these characters, you learn
who every single one of these people is they're not just names
that gets thrown out and then forgotten forever, which in a
lot of fantasy series, that is what would happen.
You'd hear this name once or twice and be like, oh, that's
cool. But that's all you'd ever get,
you know, and that's fine isn't wrong with doing that.
But I like this more, I like being able to find out who those
guys were. And I like knowing that I
probably will like. Now when I read the next book of
George, there's another name out there.
I'm like okay I gotta Good chance to learn who that's going
to be. And that just makes me more
excited. When I have that sense of I know
I'm going to learn more about these characters.
There are something that I can think about and I know will be
pay off like when Ned thinks about Arthur, Dayne later.
Like, that's a big deal. It be turns into a huge deal and
you don't meet Arthur Dayne. But the way people talk about
him and think about him, and with on the respect, I mean you
that bleeds over you get it, you're like, okay, well,
everybody respected this guy. He was really special.
He warned me and doing research to avoid brand and Game of
Thrones at something might spoil me there, but so I did.
But aside from that, I noticed, almost literally every other
mission of him is among other great names in history.
It's almost always like, you know, those Heroes Amman and
just lift off, you know, he's the one that comes to mind your
barristan, selmy, or whoever else, you know, maybe other
people have been listed, alongside him, maybe he's even a
better way to yeah. Bad.
That's true. That's true because he has the
benefit of being more recent than some of them and also from
the more famous family, which like helps promote his Legend
little more not that he didn't deserve it but that does help
being a Targaryen getting big. A little you get a little more
in the history books that way I think and you know you mentioned
Eric and Arc and how their story is Still Still Point where we're
still learning more about them. Yeah right but I want to say, I
don't know who to be more upset with their parents or George
Martin for naming. The Arrogant are with the heck.
Yeah, that's totally Valerian Volare.
I'm like it's the same thing. Like when you receive it it's
you could clearly tell them apart but set out loud.
Yeah, yeah. George wasn't thinking about
outside of book. By the way, this stuff when you
see it, you mean when you see their names written down but
when you see the two actors on screen, they're twins their Luna
hear. The name spoken is pretty much
the same thing. You gotta have subtitles and you
got you wonder like it sometimes, right?
Like they They could be wrong. Like yeah, parekura so this
story has a she alluded to this story.
Also involves a two siblings of Prince Haman.
This is a big part of story, a lot of what we'll focus on and,
and though none of them are twins in this case, those three
will see, parallels, Jaime and Cersei who are twins and are
caught by bran hooking up at the very end of the chapter that
this quote comes in. So that's all kind of nicely
tied together. We see a parallel to them.
It was currently in House of the dragon as well.
In my opinion, I think we're seeing the aemon.
The dragonknight dynamic with a man to Lena an egg on like I
believe they're mining that for that and so you're right very
good point. Yeah, we're aiming is takes
Elena more. Seriously and respects her and
yeah. And yeah, it's romantic or
platonic even right now. Yeah, yeah.
But he cares for her and respects her I guess.
Just like how. Amen.
I imagine respected nerys and all that.
Yeah gone, is it? An drunkard who sleeps around a
lot and it is the serious kind of worry or dutiful.
Yeah, there's they're definitely Raymond aim on the Dragon
Knights other sibling, there is the sister but the other sibling
is aegon the fourth, the Unworthy right, like it is
absolutely but he doesn't the big killings and someone who's a
bad person. And one huge difference is that
aegon the fourth doesn't become king till he's like in his 40s
whereas egg on the second as we see on how the dragon hand in
Fire and Blood. He becomes king much younger.
Yeah, so that's really a big deal.
We're going to talk about this parallels, a lot those children
and the parallel to the other targaryens.
And bran, it ends his dreams of Knighthood, of course being
caught by Jamie answerer catching Jaime and Cersei and
then them catching him catching them.
And he had been excited about meetings for barristan, so it
really changes. His are changes what where his
Arc is appears to be headed from the very early on.
By the way, the dragonknight that's his name, what would
Brands name if he had joined the kingsguard, he would have been
the first Stark to ever join. The kingsguard that would have
been a pretty big deal and just like a man was the first
Targaryen ever to join the King's Garden.
I think the only one and Stark. So what we have the wolf by
that, be cool. Yeah, I was thinking wolf night.
Sure. Fire wolves night or something
like that. Yeah, that's night.
I like that. That's a unit in my game right
now. It's I mean, it sounds cool.
It should be in games. Hi, I'm for all sorts of Dragon
Knights lion nights, even throwing a kraken night or two.
You know, I prefer honest nights, this, lion nights out of
here. This one is lying Nights by the
same token prints, a man's inclusion in that list, of
course, marks him as legendary, and he's worthy of the stories.
Yes. She's a Targaryen but it wasn't,
you know, nepotism or anything that got him in there.
It definitely helped him out in his career, but he earned it.
I think Nina says, indeed, brand mentally places a man here in
the First eight people, he thinks of when you think of the
kingsguard as an institution and one of them didn't even exist in
the time of targaryens Irwin, the mirror Shield was like
thousands of years before but hey you know Brands seven he's
allowed to mix this stuff up a little that's huge for a body
which is not only existed for the better part of three
centuries but which ostensibly is supposed to represent the
best of the best of westerosi Knight Hood Amon.
Remains the top of the popular imagination of westerosi
chivalry more than a century after his death and it's
especially impressive, Damon ranks, so high in the Mind of a
child with clear recency bias like a kid's gonna be focused on
like a lot of the living ones that are going to really fixate
on certain ones. And their what a child fixates
on is going to be different than you know what an adult, fixates
on the things that matter to a child is going to.
Yeah, we care about different things a kid.
Now that's that's how it works, right?
But still a man stands out. Even 27-year old brand among so
many big names. We like to mention when a
character is first brought up in the story.
The whole purpose of this first mention section that we don't
always do because it's not always Relevant or important but
especially with the character we like to do that because it
anchors ourselves to the story. We're playing in this giant
sandbox of a world. We've been blessed with, but
we're still trying to stick to the story, right?
As much as possible. It's still important to us.
And this is a character with a lot of parallels, to some of the
most Central not to mention a famous real world parallel
legendary, parallel or two as well.
But, yeah, he is mentioned over 90 times between the five
novels, and the world of Ice and Fire.
And then once or twice and Fire and Blood 90-plus.
No, joke. That's not like an estimate.
Yeah, I mean, it is sort of an estimate but it's not loose
estimate. It's above 90 shortly after
this, quote, that we read from Brand Santa thinks of Prince
Haman as well, in her first chapter because she also loves
the stories and he's a star of the store.
He's a favorite. He stands out not just for his
martial Deeds but she thinks of him and his doomed love for his
sister so it's the romance. They she's thinking about a lot
but also his Valor and bravery while Brands thinking more about
the swordplay, you know, Santa loves to kissing stories.
Well, a man is part of both. He's part of the so-called
kissing stories, even if he never did any kissing, Of anyone
maybe but maybe he did and he's also a great warrior.
So now Sansa will at one point say that she wants to marry
Joffrey. Cuz, you know, I'll be Nares to
her. His prints Amon and Ted's like
woah. Okay.
Trust me daughter, Joffrey is no Prince Haman.
And that, of course, we learned pretty quickly.
That is completely right there. Sad, so would cringe at that
compared? Listen, we're she to remember
having made it so long ago. Maybe she'll just not think of
that good for her. That's a good.
That's a thing you can forget since we don't need you to
remember that as also a good time, to remember the George
intended, this tall to be a Trilogy at first.
So the pieces of Targaryen history that are included early
were more important to the story at the time because there was
going to be less of it. He was getting more bang for his
buck out of bows lure, B, because there was going to be so
fewer of them. So aemon, the dragonknight was
going to Huge role and even after the change he continued.
So we obviously love these books, but when we see an
historical figure included early on, it is a little more special
dare on. The first was the first that we
see mentioned that if I remember correctly and he's one of the
Kings, a man's going to serve under him, the Dragon Knight.
And we did an episode on admin or on Damon on dare.
I'm right before one of those one of those names.
Yeah, right before seasoned. And the only other Targaryen
King mentioned before Emissaries.
But Ares was one who just died, but Darren's parallel is to Robb
Stark. That's his main analog.
And Robb, Stark story is complete, but the parallel
suggested, an influence by Eamonn are still ongoing even
though Amon maester aemon is passed.
Yeah. Jamie and Laura's and these
other characters are still around.
Their stories are still playing out now.
Maester aemon was born in the year 1998 which was roughly 20
years after the Dragon Knight died.
So we know how they're a g'nite died and most of the
circumstances. They're not the exact year.
It's narrowed down to about three or four year range though.
So it's not a not a big mystery and it was during the reign of
his brother King. Aegon, the fourth be unworthy,
and that too, is a name that says a lot without even knowing
much else, most of you do know a lot about him, we did a whole
series on the blackfyre, Rebellion, which started with
aegon the Unworthy because he's the father of all those black
fires or grandfather, or great-grandfather would have
you, their stories are all woven together, but this is his point
of view as best as we can clean. Then, again, Perhaps his other
name, sake has not asked if you believe Jon Snow's name was
meant to be Amon. Then there is a name in debt has
a lot in common with him in the dragon.
I still out there. But if you believe he was aegon
or Jerry sore, you know John then that's not as relevant.
But still, John does have things in common with him in the Dragon
Knight without his name. Actually being aiming but it
might be from TK. Okay, podcast Network.
Work, what kind of current real world music would aemon?
The dragonknight, listen to, and in my head, who a couple ways, I
think he could be real mainstream with it, or he could
be real emo with it, to me. He would listen to Jars of Clay
Action, Rock. And I think you're right.
I did you really write songs about like, wanting to be with
someone. You can't be with her, but you
have Jesus. I don't know if you'd be that on
the Note. Yeah, I don't know either but he
be like things to deal with it. He wouldn't he wouldn't wallow
in his own. He would just like, try to push
forward. I don't know.
I've kind of like the question now is shout out to TK.
Okay podcast, what do you think Sean at Santa Cruz?
Say that I don't think he would be into music enough to be
listening to some weird, Indie band or something?
You know, I think he would listen to something standard.
Good popular. You know I do and I don't know
how to define modern. I don't know if AC/DC's modern
Maybe that's to partyish for him.
He wouldn't be to wear earphones.
Like you can't be a kingsguard and have any buds and you got to
be paying attention. He would listen to what the king
listens. Got these just
like the, the glam rock, where it's really about exercising
crew. Yeah, just like, Yeah, but
remember a aemon the dragonknight served under five
Kings. So, yes, aegon was the one
that's the most noteworthy but he came later and he served
under Ford are on the young dragon.
The Conqueror of Dorne that would do what?
That dude listen to like metal like he's in town yeah Fire and
Blood music made for the intensity and he does have his
headphones on. Well he's on the battlefield.
He's like Alright for it. He was born in 136 the same year
that egg on the Thirds Regency ended.
So they're either year, egg on the third became old enough to
rule on his own was the same here aiming the Dragon Knight
was born. Now we said that a man, the
Dragon Knight was probably the network.
Rather maester aemon was named framing the Dragon Knight and
aemon. The dragonknight was probably
named for the prince. A man who had been Jerry's and
Alice Sands are for so long. He had been handed a king, the
uncle of the saris, Damon, father, of rainey's to clean.
And never, was that a man, of course, have been groomed to be
hand and had died 45 years earlier to the marish crossbow
man, that was aiming for Lord Tarth Nina, right?
By naming his second son, after Amon, Prince of Dragonstone
viserys could further, underlined, the Targaryen this
of his family, despite their lice, any maternal Heritage, as
we discussed in our episode on lice or lease, however, you want
to say it. I go back and forth.
Amen. And aegon in Aries, his mother
was Lara, Rogue re who was lice any, they have the Valerian
look, but the culture is pretty different and that became a
problem, especially for Lara, which, of course, if it's
problem for the mother, it's a problem for the whole family.
Let's be honest. That's It's there's no way to
not have some kind of trickle down effect.
The problem is big enough while the name of his own father.
Damon might have been a little too divisive, because Damon was
such a polarizing figure and we're not that far past his era
when this is all happening, a similar name.
Yeah. Amon, a guy who was well-loved
rather than Damon, who was violent and yeah.
Like I said, someone who you don't have mild opinions about
Especially if you're in that world.
So that was a may be a clever way to have a name that sounded
like that but was referring to someone who was more universally
loved more, noble more neutral name at the time.
Egg on his brother. In a symbolic moment is found
hitting his younger infant brother with a dragon egg.
This is really wild because egg on was born in early 135.
So he's less than two years old doing just like, whoa, It's
really getting ahead on being a jerk.
It's like user of a prodigy of jerkiness he got started as soon
as you can walk. I believe there's some amount of
exaggeration. Yeah.
Or interpretation is something here because two year olds can
barely like drink from a cup. I mean I don't see how heavy is
a dragon egg pick it and handle it, but I can't imagine you as
like laying in the crib with the next to him.
He was like rolling it into him or something like that, a
servants exaggerator. So the still it's makes for
ironic symbolism where you have this is how he's going to be
treated by his older brother with disdain, with violence or
disregard with contempt. I think is a good word for it.
Probably because a man was just better at everything.
A man was just a better person and he was closer to their
sister even though egg on got to marry her like just it was just
a better dude. Maybe that's some irony to maybe
aegon toughened aim on up. Maybe yeah.
Older brother like this would ya see they're going to break you
or make you stronger. It's definitely going to have an
impact of some sort. Yeah.
It could have been pretty horrifying to the red.
Keep and House Targaryen because they do.
I just survived the dance, right?
It's all fresh. On their minds is only been a
few years ago. He have a two-year-old Targaryen
going to beat up his brother with a dragon egg.
Like, that's really symbolic like oh, let's not do that
again. Come on, come on.
Let's like they're already getting started.
Like, you can't be jealous of his brother yet.
Kenny, like, I guess he can. It's like they were born to
fight, but a man didn't really fight aegon, except with words
occasionally, you might have argued with him, but it's more
like a gan was born to antagonize.
Amen. Because It wouldn't be long
before fighting his brother would have been a really stupid
idea or ticket to Quick embarrassment because very early
in life. A man could out dual aegon but
obviously not as an infant. He was defenseless against
aegon's egg or maybe it was his egg.
I don't know which egg it was but egg on his head.
Egg on his brother. Yeah.
Then Aires was born. Two years later when the year
138 she was frail and sweet and gentle.
And sadly that made her an easy target for older brother aegon
who was not sweet or gentle or frail, he was closer to the
opposite of all those things. So as far as mother and father
when aegon was born in 135, viserys was like 12 or 13.
Lara was 19 or 20, so Lara being 19 or 20.
That's that's not that old, especially by westerosi
standards for having a child. But 12 year old and even in
Westeros, 12 is very young NG to be a father even in Westeros
even by Noble standards where they sometimes go a little
early, you know, they're called all the money taken care of, you
know. They called him for Sarah is.
So they were both anointed by the faith and that's important
to know because in this era things were getting less and
less dragony and more and more 70 because the dragons were gone
and so they couldn't be We have our dragons, don't mess with us
now we're like well we don't have so many dragons and early
on they would have none at all so they had to play a little
nicer and that led to more and more closeness to the faith,
more taking up some of the tenants both in House Targaryen
and without, but not every Targaryen went along with it.
So that's an in really important sort of division of sorts not
that they were against the faith but they didn't embrace it to
the level of some of the others and some of the Targaryen Kings
in the future especially like think pale or the Blessed number
one of all embracing the faith, right?
But after that as well dare on the second there on the good
very very Pious and over time they started to move away from
some of the incest Traditions as well.
Because well why? Why be incestuous when you
aren't keeping the blood pure for Dragon riding?
It's the first no dragons. What's the point of that?
So these are things that will come up, these are things that
are changing for House Targaryen.
Early on in this era. So, eamon's born right at the
cusp of a new time. A new world for House Targaryen
and for Westeros. Laura also wanted them anointed
in a lysine ceremony. She wasn't against them being
anointed in the faith, but she wanted them like dubli anointed,
which is pretty normal in the real world too.
But not, this particular situation wasn't so normal
because people didn't like, the lysine religions.
They didn't like her to hurt two people around Westeros.
They were strange, and they didn't understand it.
It was it's strange to them. They think it's black magic, and
it was a little made a little worse by the fact that Lara They
never learn to speak, comment on any conversation, be her.
And her children would have been in lysine or one of our other
languages of valerian. Life sentence is a dialect of
valerian anyway. Which by the way, it tells us
that her children learn to speak those languages, but they may
not have kept it in practice because she left in 139 return
to lease and never came back. She didn't feel welcome and part
because there were aggression it was aggression against her
family, her side of the family and her family.
Had that big collapse. The regard family had their big
Power. Play that fell apart, and there
was Civil War, and members of her family were killed and all
sorts of stuff happened. That's a little outside, the
scope of this episode, a lot of what we covered in the lysine
episode so it's kind of understandable that you left on
the other hand. There's people out there who
really can't fathom leaving their children behind but If we
try to put yourself in her shoes, maybe a little makes a
little more sense. Nina says, I do feel bad for
Laura because I can imagine what sort of unhappiness she might
have been feeling at this point. She'd already been violently
reminded during the lysine spring that are foreign this
code and would be used against her.
And there are definitely a lot of westerosi that would have
preferred viserys to marry someone from Westeros.
And not a rogue re especially because he was basically forced
into it. Even though he liked it, he was
happy with the arrangement. Viserys was, it was still forced
on him. That's what other Nobles and
folks out there. I'm like that and didn't like
the lice, any encroachment on their culture and the power they
were trying to achieve and all that, not to mention one of the
Regents Lord, manderley flat out openly gave a larger sentence to
one of her family members because of his race because they
bi you're a thrice-damned lice any, you know and gave him was
like openly said that. So that doesn't really help dial
back. The racial animosity when you
have one of the highest ranking people in the Kingdom just
saying that out loud to people. Like basically endorsing that
prejudice. If you feel - towards Lara, for
leaving her children, at least balance it out with, with this
stuff, because it's pretty heavy, pretty heavy, pretty
severe. She was very unwanted there.
I think, another thing that Nina says here to is it, she might
not have really been given the opportunity to be a mother.
Yeah, like true. Like, she might be leaving these
children that she's not even allowed to see ya?
Like, are they do, they don't want her to raise them as lice
any so they're trying to take a pic, her away.
Yeah, I see that. Trying to keep her out of the
public eye, trying to prevent the kids, we're trying to make
sure the kids learn westerosi Customs, Customs not lice any
Customs. So like if she's a borderline
prisoner her, children are borderline.
Prisoners are kept apart from each other.
There's prejudices against her like at some point in general.
I understand the idea. Like you said, it's hard to
Fathom leaving her children but I can fathom it.
I can't come up with a scenario where you would and I think this
might be the scenario, and here's another example.
Or the dimensions here is mollari own or Voss.
That's the mother of Aryan and Quentin and the other one
Tristan after saying the other other one.
Yeah, I forgot land. Sell the other day.
Yeah. I'm the middle of a reread
because like, yeah, I'm like, I gotta shake that rust off as
he's, and yes, I'm Larry. Of course, she also left.
She left to go back to nor vas, she was unhappy and Dorn, and
Doran didn't really give her I say in some important decisions,
like he gave their children away as hostages, she complained and
was like, what kind of father gives her kids will give their
kids with a koala princely sort. Was like, who's really giving
the kids away? Like who's really leaving the
children in this scenario, right?
So that as a fair argument to be made, there is like you sent
them away, I left, but you sent them away.
I didn't leave the children. You had already sent them away.
Anyway, coming back to Amon, it's very traumatic nerys.
I mean, there's Trauma from just never meet Your mother in the
first place. I don't want to downplay that.
I never met my father and that mattered but Amon and egg on it
probably been worse because they were four and three and they
would have a memory of her and they would remember her leaving.
So that's probably more powerful.
Probably bigger level of trauma. And for viserys it was a big
deal to. This is his only wife, he
doesn't remarry. He was only 17 and he was very
into her. He liked her a lot, and Well, he
kind of went Tywin, viserys is kind of a Tywin without the
cruelty and Evil. Evil but but yes, the coldness
and the becomes Stern after his wife.
Well in this case left and tywin's case died and had three
children, two boys, one girl and one joins the kingsguard.
Yeah, there's all these very similar things not to mention
viserys as hand of the king for 20 years, just like Tywin was.
So there's a lot of very strong parallels here.
So you think of Tywin very think of viserys very simply as Tywin
without the cruelty and evil. You be pretty close.
So competent capable intelligent.
Good administrator. Not a great parent.
You know, we see a mass murderer.
Okay, you're pretty big juicy. What I sent without the evil.
Be another really fascinating thing about this time periods
because the dance wiped out so many targaryens and just people
in general, not just targaryens, obviously, viserys at age, 17
was the second oldest Targaryen at the time.
The only older one was the King aegon, which his older brother
who's only a couple of years old.
So, who would just as He said in 136 reaches age of maturity.
So this is a very young Bachelor.
It's like a not only, is it a new era, culturally because of
the changes in loss of dragons and all these other things, but
it's like a reset within the family on a personal level.
Like they don't have the Elder Statesman to learn from her to
teach them stories of the old days.
They have that in the form of non-family members, maesters and
other people who may be close by, maybe Volare and cousin here
or there, the sea snake was gone by now to, there's just there's
not a Of people, they could talk to you about what things used to
be like, so they had to make their own way and that's doubly.
So for this family who didn't even have a mother and you had a
father who was too young to be a good dad and was handed the
king, so he was rather busy besides.
So she say Amon became strong because his brother beat on him.
We had a lot of other factors that made him strong.
Yeah, he was privileged, no, let's not forget that.
Sure he had money and wealth and education.
But in terms of parenting and a Port group around him.
Not that much, not that much. I wouldn't call him privileged
in that regard, certainly not, I'd say.
Oh, maybe even almost underprivileged in that.
In that regard, Nina says it's interesting to speculate on the
political implications as well. Lara would have been something
like the second lady in Westeros after the queen queen dinero?
And so, her flight might have caused quite a bit of comment as
even though she wasn't well, loved by a lot of people.
It just goes to show that big reset at court.
You don't have these older cousins or the former the, that
was your queen. Nothing like that.
So who'd you who to go talk to, who do you ask advice for?
It's a really really different time even though it's not that
long after the dance. Water pressure a lot of change.
Another reason viserys might have been under pressure to
remarry though. He might have been under
pressure to remarry after Laura left is that his older brother?
The king didn't have any kids yet, so Hague on Amon and Nares.
Were the only young targaryens it's time so that all the are
the future of the Kingdom. Looked like it might pass
through there might King was still young and his Queen was
too young to have kids. So there was no there wasn't
like doubt that they would ever have kids but it Until it
happens, you don't know that it's going to happen.
And it's important to note that it isn't just a man, an egg on
an Aries, the lack of mother figure.
I mean, egg on the king himself, didn't have a mother around now
that neither did viserys his mother.
Their mother was gone and queen Daenerys, and her mother was
gone too. So none of these kids had their
parents around and they're having to like Rule the Kingdom
and rebuild the kingdom. After this giant Civil War, I a
few years had passed a lot of the rebuilding it happened, but
still there were worried about it happening again.
And There's just a lot going on. It's a lot for teenagers to have
to handle, even Royal teenagers, even with their upbringing and
all that unadulterated. It's the word, unadulterated,
unadulterated children. I could see the targaryens being
heavily protected to like mothered and fathered by people
who aren't their mother and father, like, burying overly
protective of the very few Targaryen who were left, because
if the targaryens die out, then you got to figure out who's
going to rule and that's probably gonna go bloody No one
wants that. That's not something that you
aim for unless you're I do you're on or something like that
or little finger maybe it's not many people would want that if
anyone. So not only is a child going to
feel major loss from the departure of their mother and
lots of protection just feeling of having your mother around.
But presumably The Fearsome sand off the shadow would have left
also he would have been a monstrous protector that even as
a kid you like hold my God. That dude is just way bigger
than everyone else. But he's on your side, he plays
nice music. He's there always protecting
your mother. You'd probably recognize him as
a protective influence and then he's gone to and you're like
dang, he was like a bodyguard. Yeah, Laura, yeah, he was a
former pit fighter. That was freed and made her
sworn shield and he's like a huge man like sort of Gregor
Clegane sized not as tall but wider and not you know, Undead
by very dark skin. In.
So, to unfamiliar looking to a lot of restaurants, which meant
may have made him more intimidating, and his face was
like, scarred up and his lips were missing and he didn't talk,
but he played music. Yeah, he could play at the harp
really well. He beautiful music.
Very interesting characters they may have missed his music as
well. You know I didn't think of that
until now. Yeah Sean has whoa.
Lips were missing. Yeah yeah.
He was different, a drink. Yeah.
With this Vibe around Court of lots of lice any, and this big
Burly protector, who could spring for that any moment?
Is it? Maybe it's natural that Amon
took to Knighthood because they didn't have the adults around as
much as they would other generation to protect them.
And so with the nightly sense of Duty and thus, the faith of the
seven is becoming more and more part of the Royal Court.
You could see why Someone would step forward me.
Like I'm going to be the one to take on this Duty and be a
protector. It's needed.
I have the skills I'm going to do it and that person was aimin
even at a young age it seems like he started to take on that
Duty. Seems like he was a very serious
child didn't didn't play a lot. Probably it also makes sense
that if we think that as a young child, he would make this
realization that he needs to step up and take on this role
and be prepared. They're probably a lot of adults
around. And they have the same
realization. They probably there's probably
some amount of pushing them into it, you know like hey don't you
want to learn how to fight with this sword?
You know, I'm sure plenty of other nights and masters of arms
and so on. That would have been eager to
teach him and put him in. These videos are shown aptitude
for which would have made them pushing ago.
This kids, good, let's see. Yeah, we should work on.
Yeah, let's develop his talent. He's so good, that he almost
certainly was good, right away. Like Talent showed itself.
He was strong and fast. It's also was inflamed by the
fact that yeah the king himself was kind of a depressed kid.
He got he came out of it, somewhat marriage changed him.
Having kids changed him but he was still very depressed, very
dark mooted for understandable reasons, given how things have
gone for him, earlier in life, but he clearly wasn't going to
step up and be this fearsome protector of the family, even
though he was the king and neither was his own brother
aegon going to step up and do that because he was clearly lazy
and more like egg on the second interested in girls and drinking
and stuff. Like, Like that.
So Amon, maybe one day realize that, hey, I'm the one.
I'm the one that's capable of doing this.
It's my duty to actually do that.
And yeah, I like your idea Shawn that they may be noticed that
right away. And some of the master-at-arms
people who were took it upon themselves to be foster parents
for these targaryens who quite clearly didn't have their own
parents around as much or at all.
And I think that would have garnered some sympathy around
some of the other Nobles at court and some people would have
really liked young age. Because of his nature because of
being dutiful. You're like, really you feel bad
for a kid, you can't be a kid, right?
Yeah. You'd also be proud of someone
that shows such talent and works hard.
Something we've seen a few times.
Is it the kingsguard often have certain responsibilities often
like a certain person that they're more specifically
responsible for? Yeah, right.
And I don't know how much of this is definitive or
institutionalized versus how it turns out to be but Was there a
kingsguard that was more assigned to a mon when we know
this, don't know? Yeah, the kingsguard in this
area is a little bit on a little bit, unofficially.
There's so few targaryens, it seems like you might have like,
I don't know. One kingsguard might be
responsible for Joffrey he had sand or basically right?
Yeah. And then there might be another
kingsguard. It's like the other kids in a
one is Cersei and in one is, I don't know the courtroom.
Yeah. There's some other person but
there's preferences and sort of the way it falls out like
certain Things happen like rhaegar certain ones, got close
with rhaegar, and that almost became a problem.
But there's no, like, set rule for it.
It's really more about just human relationships and how they
tend to just work out. I'm going to say though, we may
never know, but I'm going to say there was probably a kingsguard,
it was close to aim on the probably taught him a thing or
two. I think you're right.
I think you're very probably right about that.
He joined the King's Garden early age as we'll see pretty
soon, and if he's surrounded by nightly virtue, protect the
weak. Join the scene of the faith of
the seven. And these virtues would be all
around him and he would see the need for them.
And unlike someone like sandor, Clegane who is disabused of the
notion very early on that Knighthood is a load of BS, a
man would not have been disabused of that notion.
He might he would have been disabused of certain other
things like maybe certain things about growing up and your
parents your family like. Yeah.
It's your family's not always great which might be all the
more reason why he sought solace in these institutions.
And in being a royal, he wouldn't have nay seen the Dark
Side of some of the institutions until he was much older.
Unlike a sandor Clegane, who was exposed to that at eight years
old. Where is it again?
They give my brother a Knighthood, then this whole
thing is worthless that never happened for Raymond.
Do we know who the Lord Commander was at that time?
No, we don't. Yeah, we don't know much about
the kingsguard this super early time, and even later, we don't
know that much about it. We just know that several of
them died in Dorne, but we'll get to that later.
So Laura dies in 145 cause is unknown So again, even though he
was a Targaryen and had a lot of privilege, his life was marked
by pain and loss. She was 30 only when she died.
So they may have still had like letters back and forth and
haven't heard from her from time to time but that obviously
stopped. And we don't know what happened.
So may have even been worse than it sounds.
Because it may have been tragic. It may have been like, she may
have been murdered or something and that would have just made it
worse. I wouldn't be unreasonable at
all for someone to murder the Queen.
The wife of the king leaving the King open to remarry.
Like that's very possible. I know it's far, but like that's
a good Target. If you think you have an
eligible daughter, because he might have just always been miss
are a part of a serous might have hoped she would come back
one day, but if she's dead and he's not going to hold on to
that hope as it turned out, he'd never did remarry, so that was
their plan, a didn't work. So we can't know at this point
is to really interesting open. Question is, was there, lice any
Heritage severed? At this point they still have
connection to any of their life's, any family.
They may have still had some Rogue RI cousins out there.
I mean, they're all Gary family had their fall but it wasn't a
total. I'll collapse, it wasn't like
they were wiped out, as we saw, which one of the Ruger?
I forget which one came back and got to bury Lisandro properly.
And so they had a comeback. So, yeah.
A man's grandfather, Lisandro the Magnificent died in 135 a
year before a man was born, but lissandra's wife, haman's.
Grandmother is an unknown to us. We don't know her name.
She might have still been alive especially because she might
have been lying or than lasondra that's not uncommon at all.
And even if she was around his age, he wasn't.
Old he/she could easily just be in her 50s.
She might only be in like her forties, so she could easily
have been alive. Nina says, I tend to imagine
that viserys is not want. Anything do not want to
reinforce anything to do with the lice, any side of his
family, following large departure, he had himself
experienced the zena phobic backlash against the regards
during Life's, a nice spring. So he might have been wary of
reminding Westeros about all that especially with her being
gone. There's not as much reason to
defend her and yeah, she's not on his side as Much anymore.
What is he really pulling for at this point?
He may have just resented her. At that point you may have
resented her leaving. We know we hear he grew stern
was part of the Tywin connection there and he may have resented
anything to do with her at that point.
Even if he was also simultaneously still in love
with her, may have been one of those like I hate you, I love
you kind of things, so that's all very believable.
But we're really just guessing at this point.
Well, egg on the third wasn't fondly remembered as a king.
He had a quality shared by viserys the first that we lauded
that is semi Priceless. In a person with absolute power.
He didn't abuse his office. Yeah, he wasn't a great king but
he didn't go around throwing his weight around.
He didn't like force people to do things that were
dishonorable, he wasn't cruel. Like if I feel like if he forced
anyone to do anything, it would just be like crying session.
Yeah. Listen to his Emo music catalog
were like, yeah, he was, he's like Cash Kings making me, love
this music again. In fact, a man might have found
things in common with King aegon more so than with egg on his
brother because think of aegon the third serious, humble
dutiful unmarked by lost and vice, maybe a little sad because
of the things that happened to his family.
Pretty close in age to how close in age where they okay, well,
aegon became e. Not super close in age but
pretty close to egg on the third.
We came 16 the year that a man was born.
So, 16 years of Arkansas, a close, but close enough that he
could look up to him a little once a and CMS, any of the
targaryens around, we're like him, and he wanted someone to
look up to, and his own family would probably be him.
And, of course, Hague on the third.
It did start having children eventually, maybe it was more
out of Duty than how to love, although it five children.
So kind of implies he was, may be enjoying himself a little bit
if Lottie Mae became around on it.
No pun intended in 143. Okay?
Fine, intended and 143. When the Dragon Knight, who was
not yet called, that was seven, the Future King daeron the first
was born. So he's closer in age to this
guy. Followed a year later by
Darren's younger brother, the Future King bail or followed in
succession by princesses Dana, Rayna and Elena in the year. 50,
when Amon was 14. So while a man was never all
that close to inheriting the throne in the first place, he
fell even further behind and so, did his brother.
We don't know what a gun was thinking.
He may have thought he was closed and he fell really far
behind which made eamon's development or sense of Duty
even clearer given traditions and the family conditions at
this point, the Targaryen family was regrowing itself.
All the more reason for him to be like that, have the attitude
of a loris or something was like, yeah, I'm the Third.
'The Fifth wind down as no need for me to marry and have kids.
I should be a warrior, I should be that this and that.
So the standard westerosi Traditions were clear here, like
his duty was pretty straightforward in that, in that
sense. So, let's talk about his
siblings because this is the meat of it obviously.
Most of his parents aren't a big part of the story.
One of them is already dead at this point.
At least, technically, she isn't dead yet, but we fast forwarded
to her death because it's not going to have much to do with
anything and viserys is going to be too busy.
Being hand to be much of a father.
Again, we're going to see them raise each other.
So it's these three siblings so they're going to be the focus
for a lot of this. Now, egg on, had a lot of
terrible qualities. You think of the young versions
of him like egg on the second, you'd not be too far off.
Off though, this egg on was more capable with the sword and maybe
even maybe a little Cruller to that wouldn't last as we'll see.
He also took after viserys the first and that he really
declined as he aged partly due to lots of partying, but while
the saris, the First Health declined, his personality didn't
really change. Hague on, on the other hand, it
was both his health and his personality decline.
He became a jerk, he became more cruel, more hateful.
More vindictive more, all the bad things but this was very
slow build-up and again, he's not King not yet so it was less
of a problem than it could have been but still it was bad feel
like rubber is almost yeah, egg on light.
Robert is the best comparison for aegon the Unworthy
especially because of all the bastards will be not specially
cousin but that's one of the major things they have been
adding to it. Yeah.
And they very slow decline. You and Robert also not as bad
as aegon. But yeah, similar cloth.
Cut from the similar mold. Yeah, sure.
And at the time it probably didn't seem that bad though
because it's like I said it was so gradual, it was a slow
process and his father or their father, kind of kept him in.
Check the saris made egg on behave better like he
disciplined him somewhat so that helps I'm not as much as could
have. Maybe if he had a mom around, it
would help even more. It's also possible Nina writes
that a gun developed his resentment towards a man, very
early indeed. He could see that Two brothers,
the older brother is worse at everything.
The younger brother excels at everything and the older
brothers already, kind of a jerk already kind of a narcissist.
He's going to take out his frustrations on the person
that's besting him not look Inward and feel depressed.
He's not good enough or just shrug it off because he's good
at other things or just who knows how he could have reacted
but it went about as bad as it could.
And from what we know that aegon took his brother being better
than him poorly and he wasn't just better than him.
He's one of the best ever. It's early.
If that feeling existed and it probably did it would have been
pretty intense for egg on to be like, wow, I'm really, I'm the
older one, but my younger brother is just best at the
thing that everyone in this country values.
Most being good with a sword, it's like he would have gotten
so much Acclaim, so much praise and aegon's is damn it.
You know, I'm gonna go drink some more and at this excuse is
eventual Behavior. But you know, if he hadn't
turned out so bad, I would feel more sympathetic for him.
Literally don't even care about skills with this.
Sword. His jealousy may have grown
because Amon and Nares. Grew close a meant that the
brother and sister had a lot in common.
Whereas the older brother, the one who's actually going to
marry, this sister has less to do with them, they don't have as
much in common. So this is another little point
of division between a close little group here.
And egg on would be the one that would remember.
Their mother, the most he'd be the one that would feel that her
loss probably the most and may have even been like her the most
Lots of jealousy, lots of animosity, lots of unevenness
and lots of lack of parenting, all very early on creates kind
of a mess. George also said, by the way,
the Nares turned out to look like Daenerys as in narus Mother
of Dragons. And she would have a daughter
named Daenerys as well. That's the Water Gardens
Daenerys. So like Amon nerys was dutiful
and Pious and their Duty was clear especially in the shadow
of the dance of the Dragons. Doing whatever they could to
avoid another civil war would have been Paramount to be a lot
of pressure too bad. They didn't have Alice Ann as a
mother. When young Daenerys a different
Daenerys died. Their plan was to married an
heiress to the first Amon and then jaehaerys is like, well
there's die. Let's marry a man to the next
youngest kid. That's young Alyssa, and
Allison's like no bail. On and Alyssa are separate, are
like attached at the hip. We were going to marry the two
of them, let that continue. Why?
You don't need to break all the previous arrangements to make
the oldest to marry. That's it's really not that
important to do that. It's too bad because a game in
an Aries would have been a great couple probably and they got
along really well, but that consideration didn't exist and
especially its tragic here because they weren't in line for
the throne, right? They that wasn't the thing was
like, well, maybe we need to be a little strict about it when
it's the king. And queen were talking about,
but it wasn't even that they really could have just had egg
on. Marry someone else and have a
man in Mary's marriage. That's too bad.
But of course we wouldn't have gotten all this great story if
it had gone that way. It's also easy to think of the
best case scenario but that might have also gone sour right
here because what if that made egg on even more upset and
jealous of a mantra and he ended up killing him or punishing him
in some more specific way. Or, you know, either way, it
seems likely, they knew what would happen, they knew the
score, they knew the writing on the wall.
They knew Nares is going to marry a And there was no
indication things would go other ways.
I would go, the standard traditional route, he would be a
warrior because that's what was needed and I might be
projecting. But I really picture aemon.
The dragonknight as a guy who has that I can never be good
enough attitude. He just tries so hard to make up
for that even though he's amazing.
And that when it comes comes from people that are under
parented or abandoned when they're young by the parent or
feel abandons. It's Up For Debate.
What abandonment means, I think it's pretty clearly fair to call
it the case here. So what that does in a person is
you have someone that works really hard.
Who's also really talented in his case that never satisfied
with their own level of success, or like, yeah, everyone around.
You is telling you, You're great and a part of you doesn't ever
accept it because, you know, that they were pumping you up as
a kid to make up for your mom and dad being gone and to make
up for the unusual nature of Our upbringing, and you may be as an
adult, you still feel like there are pandering to you that way.
And it just sticks with you forever.
You're just always trying to be better because you never think
you can be good enough and that leads to you being amazing at
the things you're good at, because you work so hard at it
and you're so constantly motivated and then your Pious on
top of that with this Duty angle throwing it at you.
I mean this is no wonder. This guy is so good.
He had the talent but I got the impression he worked really hard
at it too. A lot of times in that scenario,
it's the type of thing where someone looks so successful but
they're not happy. Yeah, there are successful
because they work so hard, they try so hard.
So they gain these skills and and these accolades but they're
not happy. They're doing all this trying to
find happiness and not. Yeah.
So and I think these were the piety comes in again.
Is he would also be taught to be humble.
He wouldn't be like even if he did recognize his own greatness,
he would downplay it. He would never be like the I am
the greatest type of guy. Guy.
No, you wouldn't see him doing that.
Sort of, he would be the I what picture football, when someone
spikes the football and then they score a touchdown.
They're excited because they scored.
There was a player Barry Sanders.
You would just set the football down when he score.
He would make this amazing run Dodge like 12 people and it
would go and highlight film for the next 20 years.
And he would just set the ball down and go back ready for the
next play. Like super humble that that same
in the dragonknight in my mind. He's the berries that we've
already made him Wayne Gretzky. Now, he's Barry Sanders, I feel
sorry for y'all who don't know anything about these Sports.
I'm very sorry, but just understand these were great
players. I think of Wayne Gretzky is a
famous quote man from the my quota.
Yeah. If you don't know the office or
Sports. Really, why are you even
watching this pie? Yeah.
Thrones y'all hello. So what you guys can talk about
Game of Thrones guess that later reason.
So this is humility works for me as a character trait for a man,
because happiness and joy. I don't know if those would work
for him but humility, that's that already fits with the
piety. This is a boy to me who did a
lot of growing up in his own mind.
A lot of the blood of his own, son of the growing up.
He did in his own head because he didn't have his parents
around to do that for him. And the one person he shared it
with though would have been his sister and she probably shared
it with him because they had so much in common.
They had that Bond. They were just close.
There's no other no better way to put it.
They were closed, they shared things.
I get the feeling they prayed together a lot, and I don't mean
that the euphemistic way. Like, when Renly a slore has to
stay behind and pray. I mean, like, they legitimately
prayed together. You guys gotta see this.
Save woman's. Anyone has seen the pay woman's?
Yeah. If you have seen it, you know
what I'm talking about? And this is exactly one of the
doomed aspects of their love. That's a, that's a fixates on
because the singers like to say that there was romance between
them or implies that they wanted it to be the, we don't actually
know that for all we know narration Amon, never even
considered hooking up. They just had this, they were
Pious. They felt brotherly sisterly
about each other because that is how most people would think of a
brother. And sister, it's only because
they're targaryens that worry. In considering the opposite but
because they're targaryens, it's not just a consideration.
It's not unlikely. And so many of the rumors are in
that direction. But to be clear, there's no
evidence at all that they ever so much as kissed, it's purely
rumor. And a lot of those rumors were
started by their brother later in life for his own ends.
But also those stories caught on, because they catch the
attention of the romance novel minded, youngster, like Sansa
and the singers and storytellers know that, So they write the
story that way to catch the eye of a Sansa or a brand or whoever
is reading these stories like or an us or in the shade over Shawn
and his he's you know, from that brings us to again to love
versus Duty. One of the ultimate, A Song of
Ice and Fire dichotomies one, shared by mainstream and, of
course, because he's the one, introduces its John.
Now, maester aemon and John are, of course, both descendants of
aegon, the Unworthy unless you believe some of the rumors that
we shall discuss. Prince aemon, the dragonknight
had no And install unless you believe those very same rumors,
which case he's he is their ancestor directly.
But here's a quote from maester aemon.
Describing this very thing. My father was make our the first
of his name and my brother aegon reigned after him in my stead.
My grandfather named me for Prince, aemond the Dragon Knight
who was his uncle or his father depending on which tell you
believe Amon, he called me. And that's a John, says
Targaryen. And, of course later you can be
like John Targaryen. Yeah, I like you too.
But this is this is a lot of irony here in need of points
out. Because a man says, what would
your father do? Like, my father, do the
honorable thing, no matter what and humans like, well, then your
father is the rare one in 10,000 person that would choose duty at
Baba. You know, he should realize John
that your father if he really is that honorable is an extreme
exception. He's not normal, not saying you
shouldn't think that's a good thing, but don't act like it's
normal and that's So ironic here because aemon, the dragonknight
might be one of those other rare occasions of one in 10,000 where
they really are that honorable to like maybe a Ned Stark but
even a Ned Stark had its flaws and things.
He did that word. You could call dishonourable or
mistakes or what have you same as same for Raymond that Amon?
Loved Aries is very clear but again, Nina agrees that Can't go
so far as to be sure that there was a romance.
He was the only one that could make her laugh.
There was things that they shared that no one else would
understand the treatment by their brother made them made
them Bond because he treated them equally awful.
And no one else quite so uniquely that way because they
weren't his siblings. So, just a lot of things they
had common that no one else possibly could.
Let's talk about him becoming the Dragon Knight.
I've referred to him as that so far but of course he didn't have
that nickname and so a little later we're not exactly sure
when he got the nickname but probably pretty early probably
as a teenager thinking about the honor thing and dead.
And he's other characters that, you know, if honor is defined by
how well you serve your king or how well you follow your vowels,
then I guess, net or a mon or maybe Jamie or whoever are
honorable. But like is it Which any of you
thought I was more. Honorable, if you didn't kill
Ares, if you let Ares kill a bunch of innocent people then he
would have been more honorable people and to some people.
Yeah, some people know it. There's no one answer.
I think it's a nailed it it's in the eye of the beholder.
You there is no, like Universal honor guide to refer to and I
think Heyman struggled with that to, he probably very, very
honestly in his mind was like, what's the more which of my
duties takes precedence over the others.
That's the thing that Jamie just kind of edge.
Threw his hands up like, well, who I have all these duties.
I took all these those, which they contradict each other.
What am I supposed to do? Yeah.
Hey man. Primary you guys why this is
interesting. I think George acknowledges that
and uses that constantly to tug Us in different ways and our
opinions in these characters and a man had a different set of
Difficult to rank duties and loyalties that were different
from Jamie's different set of problems of different structure
is similar, another piece of the parallel.
We're talking about earlier to if we see, Jamie sees robber,
abusing Cersei a mans, he's egg on abusing their yes right?
Yes. What's honorable thing to do
here, protect my sister or follow the king's orders, or
wishes or whatever. Yeah, and for a egg on it you
can see my wife might be even harder in some way or em and my
people harder, some ways because with Circe Yeah, it's Jamie's.
Sister Roberts, not his brother though.
So there's like what he has this, yes to be loyal to him
because he's the King's Guard and that's the Kings, that's
still really strong. I still really powerful to a
night especially Knight of the kingsguard, but for a man, it
would be tougher because that's also his family.
It's yes, it's the king and the King's Guard and his older
brother, which Westeros tells you have a duty to your older
brother and Jamie has his strike against them that he's got to
make up for two. Yeah, right.
Like so if he hadn't killed are, he's already think Larry's, they
might all be dead anyway. But if he hadn't And maybe he
has some more leeway to stand up to Robert, right?
Yeah. But since he's like barely being
left alive, right? Like it.
There's like plenty of justification to had him
executed already and he wasn't. So I guess I just have to do
what the king says now. Yeah.
But I wonder frame on if maybe he had and who knows?
Maybe he did. Maybe it going would have been
worse if not for him. I may be a mon, did put him in
check a couple times, maybe didn't quite make the history.
But I think that definitely did happen because there's a lot of
evidence that a gun was worse after it.
And died because they gone outlived his brother very good.
Yeah, it was, he was looser with his tongue and his accusations
after his brother died but we that won't come up to part two,
we're just now getting to his team's, his late teens.
This section is called the Dragon Knight and it starts with
a quote, he was as robust as aegon as an infant and it's
beautiful to look upon but his brothers, faults were not in
him, he proved the greatest jouster and swordsman of his
age. A night worthy to Bear dark
sister, he became known as the Good night for the three-headed
dragon Crest rot and white gold Pawn, his Helm to this very day,
some call him the noblest Knight who ever lived and one of the
most storied names to ever serve in the kingsguard.
So that gives us a clue. How when the nickname came about
it was after he joined the kingsguard because that Helm is
white gold. It sounds like his kingsguard
helmet helmet made for joining the king's guards.
That's probably where that happens.
The kingsguard. I'm supposed to be all flashy,
but this guy's a dragon. He'll he did the same thing, he
had the Lannister stuff, most of them are supposed to be Pure
White without the with only a little bit of heraldry.
Like a lot of them have the cloak, the the clasp that gives
him a lot of subtle to me, but a few other said, it like Oswald
went apparently had this bat home, so maybe it's not as
uncommon as I'm saying, still it's a cool helmet.
It does, by the way, help place the time.
I guess I go like, when I, when we were first doing this
episode, I assumed he was the dragon eye because he Dragon.
Oh yeah, this time there are no dragons, right?
So extensive, yeah. And in fact, that's a great
segue because what I've just written here in this part is a
man was growing up in a new era, no longer could the targaryens
rely on their dragons? They may not have fully come to
grips with that. When a man was a young teenager
because they weren't all gone yet.
They were still a few dragons left but throughout a man's
youth. Those remaining few died at some
point in the year 153, when a man was 17 the last one died
that year was really symbolic. Ali.
The Last Dragon dying is momentous enough, but the family
added several Milestones as well in line with the new era which
was with the dragons dying out. The need to practice.
Incest took a big hit will see a push back against that only to
have it returned. Only to have you push back
against only to have it returned again, not all won't be covering
this episode. That's like a long-term thing
like all the way up to the time of the Aires where it just kind
of goes back and forth with certain targaryens getting rid
of it and then others bringing it back.
I thought Nia had a Good point here when she said that she was
fascinated, by the way, the decline and gradual extinction
of the Dragons during nerys in Damon's childhood, their
formative years might have influenced their own deep piety
if you think about the doctrine of exceptionalism that hinges on
their Mastery of dragons, and if they don't have the dragons, why
would they marry their siblings? And why you just makes sense to
me that if they see the Targaryen power falling away
that they would grip onto pie? Petit and the Seven.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You're totally right.
And yeah, they don't have the dragons to say, this is the
proof from the powers-that-be, the deities, the gods that we
deserve to be in front. Well, if we don't have this Boon
from the gods anymore, this huge point of Separation.
This things that elevates us. Well, we better get in line with
the gods to the gods aren't blessing us thing on the
Conqueror was already doing that but now they just goes it to
another level now that they don't have the dragons.
Yeah, good. Yeah, another thing.
Imagine it might have been risky, but some bold steps,
symbol religious leaders. Might have said private, at
least. Well, that's what you get for
being incestuous. Yes, your dragons are dying off
like that. You can see them like publicly
or privately and maybe over time or publicly blaming bad, things
the targaryens did for why your dragons are falling apart and
even if they give their tongues chopped out for saying it, if
aegon and heard it a couple, Times, you might wonder my get
in is to be a worm in his brain, it takes over some of his
decision-making, this, you know, which is why there's a, that's a
great point. And this is why there's a very
strong chance that Nares and Amon, never even considered
hooking up because this would be against this new version of
Targaryen piety that was appropriate for this new era.
So for them to flaunt that would be more than just two
targaryens. Hooking up which in the past
would have been like they do that.
At, but this is. Yeah.
So there's a lot more against them doing it despite even
beyond the lack of been proof, which is myself quite a bit Hey,
got an Aries married early in the year, early, in the year
153, she became pregnant around the third month of the year.
That's how you can be. Pretty sure that happened early
in the year and less ice up together before the wedding,
which is pretty unlikely. Despite what kind of man egg on
was we're given conflicting reports of what happened at the
wedding. Singers say both a man and
Nares. Cried historians, say nerys.
Cried during the bedding and Amon argued, with egg on during
the feast, I would guess putting two and two together.
The thing they argued about was the bedding.
Bedding is is awful for a lot of people.
I mean there's some women that actually kind of like it because
they get they get into the whole party Spirit of it.
But you can easily see why someone wouldn't an Aries is a
straight. Like I would bet a lot.
She would be in squarely in the no thanks category for this
tradition and a man would back her on that an egg on.
We like, nope, I'm doing it. This is the way I want to do it.
This is my wedding, I'm doing what I want to do, and he
probably got very drunk. Because remember folks, that's
the order of things, the feast then, The bedding guarantee a
vague on was drunk. There was a feast before that.
So another thing for egg on and argue with his brother about
like don't be a jerk to our sister, be gentle and he's like,
shut up brother. I'm gonna do what I want, you
know, like, I could easily picture something like that
happening and being like, Oh, There weren't any like blades
drawn type of fighting with an argument, nothing like that type
of level of dispute, but a man was showing the kind of man.
He was here standing up for those who couldn't help
themselves, even when there wasn't much you could do about
it, he still stood up. And if all he can do is argue,
he's going to argue if they can draws sword and fight, he's
gonna do that. So this is another reason Santa
liked him so much. He did.
What was right? According to the stories he did.
What was right? He always kept his sister in
mind. He cherished her and protected
her and is sassa reading the story.
Santa's going to probably put herself in snare, Isa shoot us
when she's gonna have the most in common, with, in a scenario
like this, when she reads fluorine, and John Keel, she's
not picturing herself as Florian.
She's picturing herself as chunky heel, right?
So she's fixing herself is Nares here, probably, and so, and
she's not picturing Joffrey as a girl.
She should Joffrey is a Monster. Yeah.
That was like no you got that wrong.
And at the time, like, we weren't sure about Joffrey when
that line was spoken, either the red flags were there but he
hadn't gone nearly off the deep end yet.
It's one thing to not be a great hero.
It's another thing to be a terrible villain.
You don't assume some. There's something in the middle
that Joffrey could have been. Yeah, he looked bad but he
didn't look murderous and Psychopathic traits that point.
Yeah, but oops, he was yeah, which is also fairly true for
aegon though. Probably not true in this era
aegon's murderer. This seemed to come out more
gradually, you just less and less restrained, especially as
more power, went to him. And of course this point, he was
pretty far from the throne. All right, let's take a break
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Get it. You have a couple things for the
chat last week. Sean, you want to do a dress
cool? Yeah, for it devoted to Mariah,
she pointed out the idea that maybe weirwood trees or Undead
trees, that's kind of cool. Like fed blood have read, you
know, faces that are kind of like the Hi early accurate.
It's a great way to conceive of it's like it works.
I like that's great. Paul pointed out Saturday
episode was on blood magic and something we just didn't even
touch on was The Faceless Men. Is that blood magic cutting off
faces and reusing them? I don't know.
Yeah, because like when re attach has the face to her it's
there's blood but it's disturbing would like they have
to shift to cut her own face and then emerges.
So yeah, I think you could argue that could be blood magic G
suggested that my drinks. Each week be called R is fizz.
Get that in. Well like it.
Yes, yes, correct. And finally, another thought.
I think this also came from devoted former Activision's K.
So, like, I don't know exactly. If I'm not going to say I could
quote her and I might have liked taking them own Direction,
whatever. But just the idea that I made a
joke about like hair matted like what you're sacrificing things
for the sake of magic so it might be blood or if you burn
someone alive does that count and I joke that you know Danny
and the pyre hatch, the eggs might have been you know 60%
Fire magic. 30% blood magic and 10% pyramids.
Yeah, she sacrificed her hair but the fact is it, she would
have looked bald and as a young girl, and my even in a blurry
vision, not been clearly. A girl, in fact, a vision of her
might have been mistaken for egg.
Someone having a vision of Danny Hawk knows dragons, might have
thought, they were seeing egg and his shaved head as a young
boy, if they're on or someone else misinterpreted or Miss saw
with these units an object and that might have led to a egg
trying to set things on fire. That's right now that's
fantastic. Fantastic idea because we've
definitely the idea of Prior targaryens dreaming of the egg
hatching ceremonial thing. It's them but really seeing
Danny that is, that idea has been around.
And I love that idea. They dreamt of something else.
They dreamt of Danny, and thought it was them.
And so they tried to fulfill what she did.
I never thought about how the missing hair would really add to
the genderless or difficulty in. Determining the gender, the
person but you Did that by throwing and how it does look
like egg who shaved his head. Maybe he'd shave his head when
he was King. That might be a flaw in it, but
still, but so I might have had the vision when he was young.
Okay. Are ya to win?
Egg was even if it grows up to have his hair in his mind,
that's how his vision of a gap here.
Maybe eggs has the vision of vision himself and sees.
Okay, well that's still he sees himself even though the hair
thing might confuse him but he's like well that's clearly me
because there's no hair and like, who else?
But other Targaryen could that be.
So, yeah, even know if egg kept shaving.
His head, I can imagine, no, we don't, he might have kept
shaving it. Well, if you did for fun, but I
don't have a mux artwork of egg on the fifth shows him with hair
and that was that was created in consultation and has
descriptions from George for all of them.
So I'm pretty sure if I went to a mux notes that he's published
for it for that, for those characters that might have said,
that something be idea works out as we said, no.
But it doesn't. Yeah, white working Darren's.
Yeah, for sure. But dinner and still could have
the vision because he's by the vision in his Youth and eggs.
I think that's a really good idea.
Very good catch. I like that a lot.
It's a detail. I hadn't considered bring this a
little closer to that. You say, you haven't considered
that theory. And I feel confident that if I
went through the hundreds of hours of content, we have, you
have okay, honestly, thank you have, but I still like being
reminded because I think it's a brilliant idea.
But I'm just like, you know, maybe you're right though, she
had that has happened a couple times.
Are like someone says, I'm like, well, that's A really good idea
and then I go back to one of our old episodes.
Like I said that I didn't think of that too.
What has happened sometimes it takes a couple of considerations
to congeal. Yeah headcanon even.
Yeah, absolutely. I got knighting and kingsguard.
We know we don't know when he was knighted and we do and we
but we do know when he joined the king, joined the kingsguard.
And it was all still and this same here of 153, well, not the
knighting, but the King's Guard since he excelled at all forms
of nightly combat. From an early age, he was
winning tournaments as a Are we don't have any specifics but he
was probably knighted at like 15 or 16 very young, but not not,
the youngest ever which was Daemon blackfyre at age 12.
We do know that egg on the third was big on, keeping the commons
occupied. You very famously, canceled, his
coming-of-age party. When he turned 16, that they're
going to throw for him and told them to just give all the food
to the commoners. He's like, I don't want this
party, give it all to the comments.
That's going to be my rain bread and so, did he go in the third?
You gonna dirty can't be knocked up in my.
Yeah. Yeah.
She sounds like a good job. Egg on the third.
Yeah. So decent chance.
You had a lot of tournaments because he was big on giving
entertainment and spending on the commons, which would have
given Amon, a lot of opportunity to build his reputation, show
off his skills, joust in front of people, which would, of
course also make egg on his brother a little Surly, perhaps
we know that he probably got dark sister before he joined the
kingsguard. Daemon Targaryen Prince Damon
from house. The dragon got dark sister at
age 16 from Jerry's. The Old King I'm guessing it was
a very similar thing for Amon. A man turned 16 in the year 150
to make could have been around men.
Maybe maybe your earlier, but his father's hand of the king,
this King that he has some things in common with is in
charge. Hang on the third party, signed
off on it. But my head Canon is that it was
his dad's ideas. Like my son is a really good
warrior. He's He's earned our sister.
Don't you think King and Kings like?
Yeah sure I can easily see him just shrugging and be like yeah
give it to him. Sure.
Yeah. He's earned it.
Fine. What's next?
Moving on? You know I like that idea a lot
and viserys is the son of Damon. So is his own dad that wielded
extra to so he would be even maybe more cognizant of this
parallel between father and grandfather and Grand child here
with him being in between little bit of shades of Jaime and
Cersei here though, huh? You've got Jamie joined the
King's Garden Parts. He could be near Cersei circe's
idea, but Jamie was like, oh yeah, good idea.
And then it backfired because they're she had to go back to
casterly rock, where Jamie would have been.
If he hadn't joined the King's Guard and Jamie had to stay in
King's Landing was like, whoops, and now you're stuck because you
don't leave the kingsguard, right?
Even though Tywin wanted you to Bonita points out that it's even
closer to loras and Marjorie. Yes, the twin thing The Sibling
connection and rumors about romance, fits, Jaime and Cersei.
Better. But Marjorie, entire Marjorie.
And loras may be closer to the actual truth because I believe a
man in there, he's never hooked up and there's a good chance
they never even considered it Flores and Marjorie certainly
didn't either. Another factor is Loris, was had
a little more choice about touring.
The kingsguard that's true. Jamie didn't really have a lot
of choice. That's, that's true as well.
Yeah, he was too naive to realize it or to think
otherwise, but if you have been like not I want to I between
Tywin and the king. I don't know if I would have
felt, I would have been like yeah, I don't join the
kingsguard but yeah, they Right? And Jamie was all stars in his
eyes. Like, yes, kingsguard!
Yes. That's what.
All the great Knights do I want to be, like, Arthur, Dayne and
aemon? The dragonknight, and this is
deaf. He, he almost certainly thought
about a man when he when he joined, especially, because of
the parallels here to Cersei in fact starts, you might have even
brought his name up knowing that her brother was saw that man as
a particular Idol or as a figure to admire.
By the way, I think that was another note to another time
that he appeared was Jamie. Reading through the book, with
the book of Deeds, is that what it's called?
The white book him. Yeah.
And he's like, I can't believe I'm in the same book as a mon,
the Dragon Knight. Yeah, I thought he had, yeah, he
really wants to second part of his life to be worthy of that
level of Knighthood. He's really come around on it.
Jamie's went from naive to disillusioned to back into it.
He's like, well no I really should be a good night.
Like I really can be a good night.
Actually I'm inspired by brand. Yeah, totally and Amon but a
name Is part of that inspiration, because a man is
the one that provides that historic inspiration.
Like brienne's probably inspired by him to maybe, not though.
Maybe, I don't know what she thinks of him.
Like probably though because we found like nobody.
That doesn't think he's crazy either.
They haven't weighed in or they think he's great.
Like I can't think of someone saying, actually, a man was that
great, he was just an exaggeration, but back to loras
and Marjorie Nina rights Loris. It's not just during the
kingsguard because the tyrol And wanted Marjorie to have a
protector against Joffrey which is part of the aspect.
He Raymond, protecting his sister against their brother on
a personal level Loris was very much traumatized by the murder
of Renly. It's easy to imagine.
Laura's is famous comment when the sun sets.
No, candle could replace which by the way we will be reading
shortly because he's saying that there's never anyone who's going
to love as much as that. So he's not giving up anything,
he's not giving up a future romance because to him that door
is closed, the sun has set on that.
Maybe if Laura's were a little older, he wouldn't feel so
dramatic about it. He might be like, okay was my
first love I'm only 17 maybe you know, but who am I to judge, who
might say? That's how loras would feel
later. I don't know that.
I think think about how Robert felt later, he was still hung up
on Liana right? Good boy, good boy in a Min.
Probably never. I don't know if he was in love
with Mary's, but he certainly loved her and he may have been
in love with her and if that's the case, then yeah, he's not
going to ever. No one's ever.
I'm going to hold a candle to that, so he's just going to be
with her in whatever way he can be rather than half-assing it
with some candle when the sun is still shining, even if he can't
be this close to, with that son, as he wants here, is that quote
from A Storm of Swords, this is loras and Tyrion 17 and
beautiful and already a Legend, half the girls in the Seven
Kingdoms, want to bet him and all the boys want to be him if
you will pardon my asking sir why would anyone choose to join
the Kings guard at 17 from same on the dragon?
I took his vows is 17. So Laura said and your brother
Jamie was younger still. I know their reasons what are
yours, the honor of serving besides such Paragons is Meryn
Trant and Burrows, Blount. He gave the Mocking grin to
guard the King's life, you surrender your own.
You give up your lands and titles give up.
Hope of marriage children house. Tyrell continues through my
brother's for Laura said, is not necessary for third son to wed
or breed well necessary but some find it Pleasant.
What of love. The sun has said no candle can
replace it, mmm, powerful stuff. There syrians is truly trying to
get a reaction out of Loris, but loras will not do.
Oh, anything to dishonor renly's memory by speaking in anything,
but a grave tone. Speaking with severe severity,
only hold him in high regard. And I nerys didn't die, like
Renly. Well, she did but not like Renly
and not till after Amon. But any chance they had a
romance romance was dead. If it ever existed so that sun
setting, this is very much a model for what a man, an Aries
might have been feeling. As you can see, there are huge
elements of both, these familiar, brother, sister queen
kingsguard stuff going on, especially as you mentioned
before Sean with the A common element of Robert and aegon the
fourth being so similar. So the king, although they gone
is a king yet, it's still the same.
It still works because he will be king with all these things.
People still around all these elements still in place that
were sure about this but in my mind I'm kind of with you, I
don't think that you don't think that same on and Nares had an
affair or whatever, but I'm not even sure they had romantic
love. Ya, I hear ya, I think that but
I do think that he might have joined the King's Guard or felt
He needed to be on the kingsroad whatever to keep his brother and
check. The thing is, brother, ding
become king for quite a while after that.
They're like, when we drew on the kingsguard, he wouldn't have
been thinking, like, I need to stay close to aegon to keep him
in. Check that correct.
Oh, you're right. I'm re-evaluating my thoughts
right now that I think on wasn't in the line of succession it
didn't look like he would ever be king so you're right so being
in the kingsguard would not what might have in the short term it
would have done the opposite of the Jaime Cersei thing where
would take him away. Take him away from his sister
because he would be going. Guard the king and the King's
children, not the Kings nephews and nieces, which they are
important too, but they're far less importance.
Oh yeah. His duties would be more about
an egg on the third, and then young Darren and young bail or
where we're physically would aim on and Nares and aegon have been
living. What they were thinking Landing
or Dragonstone her. Yeah, right.
Keep okay. Their father was the prince of
Dragonstone because he was for a while.
He was the air until Hague on the third had his own kids but
viserys was Hand. So he didn't live at
Dragonstone, he was had to live with the red.
Keeps his kids, probably live to the red keep to, and we know
they train together, so it's a good question, but it seems like
Dragonstone was kind of empty in this era because they're just
there was no Targaryen residing there and Dragons.
Yeah, I mean, there were a couple of dragons but by 153
there, weren't by the time of this wedding.
Like I said, the last dragon died the same year.
This wedding symbolic way to kick off this new era, even more
by having Dragon died, a man joins the kingsguard egg on an
Aries. Get married.
He did join the Kings guard before they got married.
No. Right?
Right after they got married, pretty clearly connected by.
Okay, these two were married. There's no other sibling for you
to marry. You could join the kingsguard.
They could have had it marry one of his cousin's though.
Because remember, by this time, they were all born.
They had had Elena Reina and Dana had all been born.
So there were three Target. Every single girls to we're
still young though, right? Yeah, but not out of not the
kind of young that I mean. Thank you, Sylvia betroth.
Even if they were, like 10 years younger than a man, like, that's
not a like to them. That's A big deal.
They would just wait until he they were older or something
especially cuz they were so many kids coming around.
They wouldn't have been in a rush but he was dutiful and so
good with the sword I guess. Yeah.
They we don't know which specific numbers encouraged him
towards this. And another hero how much he was
from earlier that there was a formative kingsguard that helped
raise. Amen.
And he was in fire figure lying because of a father figure.
I gave you some know that kingsguard was, but I think that
seems like what I believe. I like that idea a lot.
It's definitely like nothing we can point to as a certainty
because there's just no names given here.
But it's it works so well. And it's a good idea.
I think about like in House of the Dragon seeing criston Cole,
fill that role for those young boys and like, yeah, I just see
it play out and like, yeah, of course these people that are
gonna be around them all the time.
We're going to play nursemaid fact Nanny at some point and
train them and later, Pike, they're gonna be so close to
them. It just makes sense.
Yeah, I like that idea a lot. That's not one of the ideas that
either Nina, or I had I love. I love that y'all and started
this year, it's really well headcanon until I hear otherwise
George. If you're listening put that in
Fire and Blood, you know, he's not listening he even gets the
name of the Lord Commander. I'm gonna be like, that's
clearly that's the guy. One name is like will latch
onto. Yeah, not there won't be more
comparisons between Jamie Morrison Damon, but just to
round up I got extremely high Barn.
All three of them are really handsome and super talented,
like generationally, talented night 8:00, Really young.
Join the kingsguard extremely young like teenagers and all
three cases. Joining the kingsguard went
beyond simply being a great warrior, there was a other
reasons generally to do with their family, right?
So family and or political reasons.
Yeah. On fighting prowess or loyalty
which also is maybe more of a standard than fighting prowess.
True. So lots of stuff there there and
like you said, all Three Brothers suit was a sister
Queen, even if again a man Didn't join when she was Queen
yet but still. Yep, they all had that
experience. Yeah, it's pretty different like
different different versions of a similar song.
Like These Are cover cover songs.
Different makes three different bands.
Yeah, Nina right. Same as choice to join the
kingsguard. Probably also had viserys is
full approval by 153 egg on the third had secured the
succession, the two sons, and there was no reason to believe
that. Neither of those Sons would have
sons of their own. As it turns out, neither of
those Sons had sons of there. But there was no reason to think
that at the time especially when there were also three daughters
to marry them to which that didn't happen either.
But hey, they couldn't have seen that coming.
Viserys had lived through the dance and he had every reason to
know that overly large Royal dynasties could bring dissension
and disaster like this idea. A lot mean is basically
suggesting the powers-that-be maiming, the Sarah's hand maybe
egg on the third King agreeing to this.
Maybe it was even his idea. They were like we got to make
sure there aren't too many Targaryen pairings here.
That's Why they didn't marry a man to Elena or Dana or Rana is
because they didn't want to create the conditions for
another dance of dragons where they're just too many
targaryens. Who many Targaryen children?
Yes, there'll be no dragons this time and that's a severe
detriment to the war happening, which that's a good thing, but
still, they're not gonna take any chances.
These are young young people who lived through a traumatic War.
They're not necessarily going to look at it is with hard ruthless
logic. There's gonna be a lot of
emotion behind it not going to Don't want to get themselves in
any situation. That feels like it's heading
towards another civil war, so there's going to be intelligence
but also trauma Behind these decisions.
So viserys might have looked at it and been like, hmm.
Three, different Targaryen male-female, pairings.
That's too much. Let's cut that down to two and
have him join the kingsguard. You could see why this was very
engineered, very carefully suggested to the different
Targaryen children, like they were pushed in a certain
direction. May be incentivized certain
ways, maybe goaded maybe, who knows, but I don't think it was
taken lightly Castle it. Yeah.
Yeah, I written here. It's a topic that's worth a
deeper look. Some other time that the
targaryens were looking to avoid the conditions that led to
dance. And that, what did they do to
prevent it a second time? They didn't because there was a
large fire rebellions so they really whatever they did.
Well, they got aegon the Unworthy in charge and they just
couldn't stop whatever things they would have tried to do to
prevent it. He just At the opposite, he
specifically did the things that you would want to do if you
wanted to make another dance. You do one egg on the Unworthy
did. So yeah, that didn't work out.
So great. When other X Factor we have to
account for, and all this. Now is the potential of
decisions being driven by prophecies by Dreams.
Yeah, very good morning. Hmm.
So am I just had some Vision that am on is going to save the
king. All right.
Well, he better be on a kingsguard, you know, like and
he ends up saving bail or ever. So, yeah, I could go on and on,
do you? But you could see the types of
things that someone might have had in a vision that made them
believe that this couple needed to get married or this person
needs to be on the kingsguard or whatever else.
And you can also see if you look at the viserys Damon rhaenyra
Triad that caused so much conflict within itself.
A lot of it driven by Damon some people on the outside.
Might look at Hague on nari Saint Damon and be like all the
parallels between Amon and Amon and be like a, he's a Young
Band. Last night with dark sister, we
don't want that to happen again. Like a man is nothing like Damon
personality-wise skill-wise. There's some comparisons, but
temperament wise not too much, but that, but they didn't
necessarily know that when he's a five-year-old like, well,
maybe he'll get more violent, they can't again, they don't
take chances. You can't back out of a marriage
when they've already got kids look like, oh well actually.
This marriage was a mistake, so we're going to undo it, send
your children to the wall, you know, in their babies at, you
know, they can't do that. Here's what we got to flip it a
little bit though. We as detailed thorough readers
of A Song of Ice and Fire have had plenty of criticisms of the
institution of the kingsguard and how its shelters some of the
worst behavior. Because when the king is great
kingsguard, Protecting them. That's a great thing.
When the king is awful, they're protecting an awful person in
the hell and enabling this awful Behavior King.
Aerys best example, we have because of how close in history
it is, but later in history, in this story, it's going to become
nearly the same problem with a different type of villain with
when aegon the Unworthy becomes king.
So, how much are we going to put that on a man?
At this point, he's naive like Jamie was.
It's hard to like blame him for it.
But later in life, thing to keep in mind, are we gonna hold him
responsible for not standing up to his brother more?
Are we going to say like we hold Jamie in regard.
We say Jamie did the right thing.
I think most of us, think Jamie did the right thing by killing
Ares. If not the overwhelming majority
of us thinking Jamie did the right thing, Westeros is not.
So sure about that though. So the pressures are very
different the social pressures very different name is in a
similar spot. He's a kingsguard.
That Val that. Oh, that means so much and it's
not just a nose for the king, it's an oath to the gods.
These things are all wrapped up in the religion and the piety as
well. Like Knighthood isn't your
anointed in the oils. You do your vigil to the faith?
It's all very religious. Is he going against the gods?
It's not just the same as well. What's being a good human here?
So we struggle with this because vows in this era are nothing
like boughs in our area. They take them.
I'm way more seriously and people feel more bound to them.
For most things, you know, I'm of course making averages here,
there are still people who take vows very seriously in modern
times, but I think it's safe to safe and fair to say that
Westeros they were more meaningful.
There's other little factors to like the King's Guard or maybe a
little closer to the king and the happenings of the government
and also, the Kings can potentially do worse things.
I'm just in my mind, I'm wondering about like the Secret
Service. Do we hold?
Secret Service responsible because the president went to
war or some policy here that we don't like or something like
that. Is it a secret services for were
they supposed to assassinate him or like lock him in his room so
he couldn't sign that bill or whatever.
I don't know. I feel like the Secret Service
isn't institution this protecting the president and the
things the president does are hurtful not ticket services for
a little bit but I already curious.
If they're what situations have been.
We're like a president beat his wife in front of the freaking
Secret. Isis or if it said brother was
going to push a button that would blow up a city here like
launch nuclear winter. Like especially if you didn't
have a congress's approval and that I think like in maybe you
should bring in the circuits, there was laying the Secret
Service. You remember the movie Hunt for
Red October, right? That was Loosely based on
something that really happened. There was a Russian sub
Commander that refused nuclear orders to launch has nukes.
If he had interviews that order, the world we live in right now,
be very different. So there is almost a modern and
that's me. That's about a supposed to be.
Yeah, he did. He didn't kill whoever.
The Russian Premier was ordering to do that at the time.
Obviously, he's in a sub, he couldn't have but he reveals
like not we got to be sure. He's like we gotta be really,
absolutely 100% sure and we're not.
So now I'm not launching nukes and good-for-nothing today and
thank you that in the military even like at a low level like
Sergeant or, you know, Captain tell him privates to, you know,
attack some Hill or execute prisoners or something like
that. Soldiers are expected to do the
morally, correct thing. Yeah, they're giving him or
orders. They're expected to not fall.
Gue follow orders, but not immoral orders.
Yeah, yeah, Jeremy. I know.
Germany went through a lot of that after WWII.
Yeah particular. Yeah.
It could also are you and this world that what the king does is
moral that he defines morality that God's our sister, who's
him? Yeah.
And he can again sometimes president is trying to claim
that to that like I can't do something illegal because under
President. Yeah I don't buy that Orion.
Yes, sir from Kings or president but a king is closer to being
right than a president on that argument there boss.
Wrong. But never people under a king or
more likely to look at it that way.
Yes, yes, absolutely. So, it's true.
Like I agree with the they were too naive to know what they were
doing. When they join the kingsguard
argument. Specially, considering the three
people were most talking about were so young, Jamie Loris.
And Amon yet. Jamie yuccas Army are probably
too naive to know what they're doing this.
And Jamie was like, 50. So it's like glue.
Yeah, even even more. So they think they're joining to
help. What they're actually signing up
to do is they're taking a vow to not interfere.
Here, with the very thing, they most wanted to stop because
they've signed away their rights to be a heroic, a hero when the
realm most needs it Jamie decided to do it anyway.
He's like, yeah, no, I'm gonna still, he didn't think of
himself as a hero in the realm certainly didn't but we do, I
think most of us like that, even if Jamie isn't hero, that act
was heroic? Yeah, I think most of us will
ya. And so you're doomed to you've
doomed yourself with a vow. To defend and justices that you
thought you were signing up to stop.
It's like the soldier can't be sign up to be a soldier and you
think you're going to go out in the world and kill bad guys, but
you are ordered to kill good guys.
And you're like, wait, are we the baddies?
And yeah, yes, I P. Yeah, I peep showed for you
there. So here's the quote, from A
Storm of Swords where Jamie really realizes that.
What he signed up for is that and dilemma, dilemma that
conundrum that suffering. A king has no secrets from his
kingsguard relations, between Aires and his Queen had been
strange during the last years of his Reign.
They slept apart and did their best to avoid each other during
the waking hours. But whenever Aires gave a man to
the Flames. Queen rhaella, would have a
visitor in the night. The day, he burned his Mason
dagger hand, Jamie and John Derry had stood at guard outside
her bedchamber whilst the king took his pleasure.
You're hurting me. They had heard rela cry through
the open door. You're hurting me in some queer
way that had been worse than Lord shall stood screaming.
We are sworn to protect her as well.
Jamie had finally been driven to say we are dairy allowed but not
from him roof, and that makes Dairy sound really cold but
dairies probably had the same moment of realization, 20, 30
years before and he's just like had to switch his heart off to
deal with it or he is that crew. I don't know.
I'm just saying like I don't And I'll make any assumptions about
Barry there. Yeah.
He may have been Jamie 20 years before and then same thing like
wait, not realizing what he'd gotten into and you see the
Nobles, I just joined this institution.
Hey, all these guys who were considered the the most noble,
the best, they join this institution.
So why would they ever even question it?
Until it's too late. Yeah, I do Wonder though.
You say they don't have any choice like the choice, they
have might require sacrificing their own life.
Yeah but I think they do like Jamie could have busted in that
bed chamber instead areas in the back, while he's in the middle
of having sex, he could have done any good and he almost
certainly gets executed for that John Derry might come in and
fight him and maybe Jamie like beat Oklahoma City and is on the
run. But I don't know if that is a
better way to serve Justice, or honor his vows, or where he
would have gone as a hero, but he does have that choice and
maybe even a better choice would be to lay out the accusation in.
Where again, he might get executed for it, but at least
more people are suddenly aware of it or more likely to stand up
like he did, I'm not sure. And I don't necessarily
condemned Jamie or whoever for this but I also I just want to
point out that angle that it's not completely true.
They had no choice. Okay.
Yeah. That's true.
Algorithm Korean no choice, no chance.
Yeah, might he has no chance of surviving standing up to areas
for this Injustice. Neither were Korean and Brianna
would have done it anyway. Yeah, maybe that's what the
laughter. Maybe that's the lesson that
Jamie should have taken then. Yeah.
Jamie learning that extremely rotten.
Truth is very likely applies to a man in some way.
Like some point, he may have had similar realizations about what
he'd really signed up for about what this really means it
wouldn't have been early on perhaps because of unlike Jamie
he wasn't kingsguard to a rotten King right away that came later
or for Jamie that was pretty much where he started and
continued because Robert was pretty rotten and he took over
after Ares. Cuz ya frame in the
circumstances were more gradual. His brother was going in that
direction, but his brother wasn't king and didn't look like
he would be. So he went from being may be
naive about Knighthood to joining the King's Guard and his
disillusionment a little harder to track than Jamie's, but I'm
guessing it was similar and maybe even come back around.
Like it did with Jamie, where he starts taking it seriously
again, and that's ends up being everything.
He's about ends up being his whole life.
So his duties might have kept him away from his siblings in
the early going, but later brings him.
Back to him once once they're closer to the top and the drama
would intensify majorly in the 20 years before egg on becomes
king, the parade of bastards begins as he gets older and
especially after becomes king and more, often it becomes
noblewomen. But early on it's more random
people. Their rank goes up as he gets
closer to the throne. Basically, He has a bastard in
155 and 156 157, 158 cetera. Each one of these was an inside
out. Now I want you to think about
this beforehand so where's the next one?
Yeah 159 and maybe 16 yeah probably each one of these was
an insult to Daenerys which Amon likely felt as well but there's
just no stopping at what are they gonna do was going to kill
his own brother? I mean he I guess he had that
choice. This another one we could have
yes he could have done that but I don't think that's a good
answer to the problem in 157, the king, who would be called
egg on the dragonbane died of consumption AKA tuberculosis,
it's always a big deal when it came guys.
But with that disease, the Silver Lining is, there's no
question that it was Foul Play. It was miraculous pretty
straightforward. Prince Haman would serve under
five Kings. This was the first none of the
recipe is so simple. All the others there would be
questions and with a guy who takes his job, too seriously
you're going to find yourself maybe in a cerbera sister.
Situation where barristers blames himself for Robert being
killed by a boar and barristan blames himself for maybe even
are, he's dying. And he's like, all these Kings
have died under my watch, like I'm a kingsguard like what kind
of a kingsguard? Am I the sort of
self-questioning like you're actually really good at this,
man, but part of the reason they're so good at is that
they're constantly trying to be better and questioning whether
whether their best is good enough.
For Better or Worse. Some people take responsibility
for things that aren't their responsibilities.
Yeah, and you know, sometimes you work yourself too hard or
get taken advantage for that but sometimes you make everyone's
lives better for ya. Making sure things are done,
right. You name it seems like that kind
of person again, may be projecting, but that's what I,
that's how I envisioned him, that's where my version of his
character Falls in my mind. So darn, let's talk about the
conquest of doing and we dealt with the conquest separately in
the episode on King garon specifically.
So we won't rehash too much, but duels, and minor conflicts here.
And there can mean a lot of even tourneys especially if you
dominate them. Like, we're told a man did, but
be to be a truly legendary where to be an Alzheimer.
You have to actually fight in a war or to a man may not have
seen much or any action against enemies actually, trying to kill
him prior to Dorne, but that certainly changed when the same
year he ascended, they invaded a man was 21.
The King was 14. Darren likely trained with Amon
being the best. Swordsman at court, Darren being
a swordsman himself, he bought with black fire, they maybe even
trained Valyrian steel on blurry and steel do.
Maybe more likely, they trained with tourney blades so they
wouldn't cut each other with those dangerously sharp weapons,
but hey, I don't know, I don't know what they did.
What the Dragon Knight thought of the invasion personally is
hard to say. He may have thought it better
for Dorne to submit. I don't know what he thought of
like the song of ice and fire if that was relevant to him or
maybe he thought I was just it was unconscionable to attack
another country unprovoked like this.
Maybe that was very, uh, nightly being a devotee to duty, makes
it difficult to Divine, his feelings on the matter.
He might just be like, the king says, it's the thing to do.
We're doing it. Prince Baal or the Future, King
baelor, The Blessed almost certainly spoke against it, but
he was only 13. So he may not have been super
articulate about it, and certainly his objections were
ignored if Amon thinking about that.
Like, how would Amon given his personality?
How would he disagree with the King will?
Or would he like, barristan was willing to disagree with Robert
at Council when his opinion was? Has asked for but I would think
it's the kind of thing that would be reluctant to do what
you usually put. The back, the King barristan was
already a legend and the Lord Commander.
Yeah it's not a teenager that just got on the kingsguard and
yeah so I think he did but I think that he did not do in
public. I think you do in private.
Okay. Yeah, I said to me where I fall
as well. Now maybe with his brother, he
may have lost his temper once or twice and they may have been
disagreements in public. But even that I think, And he
would have tried to keep that behind closed doors to keep the
drama down. Because I think that because
that would also be more what nerys wanted.
I don't think Mary's would want these big public fights, and a
lot of their fights would be on her behalf that keeps the drama
down and keeps the gossip down. She doesn't want people
gossiping about her. Probably, I don't know.
But he did fight with egg, on publicly at their wedding.
That's one thing to keep in mind though, he wasn't in the
kingsguard yet, so his maybe his sense of Duty might have been
different, then his duty would have been all to his sister and
less to his brothers. Not even the king yet.
And there's old course. There's always more to the
story. Here's a Twist that may not be a
Twist, but it might be a huge twist.
One, very interesting, possible piece of drama, is Dres, enco
regard to a had married, Princess, a LeAndre Martell of
Dorne dress. Zanko was Li Sondra, the
magnificence brother Lara was lysandros daughter.
Sodra zenko is great. Uncle to a mandate on an Aries.
We don't know if dress anko and a Leandra had kids, and if they
continued house, Martell those children did, if they did, which
is entirely possible, they're invading their cousins, which
would most likely push it towards a man thinking this was
unjust. This is, they're invading their
own. Wait.
Because those would be his aunts and uncles if they were just
drew zenko and Ali Andrews kids, or if another generation passed
would be their cousins either way.
They would be kin. You know, I wonder if that's
even a reason why they might have thought there was something
to this and they might they might have thought, we make this
military success and then just make peace with our family.
That's already there. Maybe that would is it was an
angle that they thought would help us be successful in the
end. Yeah, it's entirely possible.
I'd sort of tend to lean towards them not being family because As
they had to submit to Darren and there's no mention of kin or
family or the family connection between the Memphis and that or
whatever, but it's possible enough that it's Bears mentioned
now egg. On the other hand, I think he
cared he did fight in the war two.
He didn't distinguish himself, he just know.
I'm sure he drew his sword and fought but my dad, he cared
about the whole family angle stuff, he didn't care about how
he treated his sister. He certainly wasn't gonna care
how he treated his cousins. Also, he invaded or later when
he was getting Corner invaded in quotes.
Yeah. Get to that later.
So how do the actual Conquest? Go began in 157 didn't last
long. The Dragon Knights Deeds were
plentiful though. Even though short.
While his brothers most notable deed was, he was the one to
escort the dornish noble hostages back to King's Landing
after they surrendered. And of course, he proceeded to
sleep with one of them. So there were three assault
groups to invade Dorn. One Army for each of the two
mountain passes, princess pass for Lionel, Tyrell bone way for
king daeron and a Navy led by Oaken fist.
Head up the green blood. We're going to assume he was As
with King daeron unless we learn.
Otherwise, he'd be conspicuous because of his Helm, he wasn't
like sandor, Clegane size but he was Big.
And of course he had his kingsguard a tire hit dark
sister. He was always near the king who
also would have been very conspicuous with his golden gold
and black dragon armor and black fire.
And he was also a kind of a big guy.
It's probably the first time ever that those two swords were
wielded in close proximity to each other in real Combat
because yes visenya and aegon wielded those two swords
respectively but they were Dragon back, they weren't like
in the trenches fighting side-by-side, it stored.
So a little notable in the history of these Valyrian steel
blades. There would have been many who
faced him in the Dragon Knight wanting the glory of slaying the
famed legend that he was and of course killing the King in
battle would have been pretty epic to, but of course to get to
the king, you have to get through the Dragon Knight first.
I got to think that they're defending their country, there's
all this motivation to be a hero this motivation, to protect your
family and your friends and your country.
But still when you come face to face with a legend with his
Dragon Helm and his size and his reputation and that leering
steel blade dripping, blood you might lose your nerve.
You might like actually never mind.
Yeah they would have heard the stories even in Dorne.
I'm I mean for sure because he was legendary, not just for his
skill, but for his righteousness, like he was a
true Knight, some would have not have believed they were like,
Ah, that's targaryens. That's they're just blowing hot
air, they do that with even without dragons, they do that
these days but still the truth would have met the legend there
in the past that day or those days.
As the king's Army Advanced with the Dragon Knight at the front,
they fought all their way to sunspear.
Beer and one there as well, but rickon Stark heir to Winterfell
was killed in one of the final battles.
Remember that for later? It's going to come up again.
There was an assassination attempt on Dara on shortly after
the submission, this is wild even after Sons to sunspear
submitted because the door and his Rebels, don't always follow
the lead of their prince or princess.
So an Archer tried to snipe King daeron poisoned, Arrow took a
shot at him. A man saw it saw the Archer did
something somehow he noticed it and jumped in front of the
arrow. He probably wasn't holding his
shield. He probably would have done
that, which means they were, maybe it's some form of rest,
maybe they were camped or something like that.
Still, really Brave shows, the kind of man, he was like
unthinking jumps in front of an arrow.
That is what kingsguard are supposed to do.
I mean talk about setting the standard for what kingsguard are
supposed to do and it's a little similar to his namesake being
killed by that crossbow bolt, of course, no one even saw that
bolt coming. That was a completely out of
nowhere. Hit that wasn't even intended
for a man, but it does remind us of that need two points out.
And in fact, that crossbow bolt may have been poisoned, we don't
know because it went through a man's neck, would have killed
him. Anyway, so this Arrow, even
though it was also poison didn't kill him and every time I
poisoned my crossbow bolt I get a death kill anywhere.
What a waste of poison so he needed Advanced Care.
They if it had been In the era of dragons, you probably have
been airlifted out. They had to ship him back to
King's Landing, where the war while the rest of the war was
wrapped up in flared up again, less than three years later.
And the famous example of the 100 scorpions in the bed killed,
Lord Tyrell happened. The war immediately flared, back
up by then, Prince Haman had recovered from the poisoning, so
he was by the Kings side again. Presumably, he wasn't just
redefining Targaryen Knighthood, he was redefining Knighthood all
over Westeros with his bravery with His skill with his Devotion
to his duty. This time, a famous unnamed,
Darkness Champion came face to face with him.
In one of the battles. It was apparently a big enough
deal that it was worth mentioning but not a big enough
deal for us to get the name of this person.
I presume we will get the name and Fire and Blood to George
won't leave him unnamed when the detailed accounting of this
engagement comes and you wonder what that person was thinking.
They're thinking, well, I'm great, I can beat this guy,
it'll be glorious For Me Maybe. Damaged by that poison arrow and
he's a little weaker than he would have been.
Even though here to his past, maybe did permanent damage to
him that's entirely possible. Perhaps it was a nullor the
Oilers had killed Queen rainy summer acts he's and maybe they
were like yeah let's get another Targaryen.
Maybe it was a Dane wielding Dawn though.
That would be quite a detail to leave out for that same reason.
It may not have been like a Martell either or particularly
famous house but maybe it could have been an iron wood or a
Fowler or a will so much from house will is possible given
what's going to happen a little bit later.
The wills, maybe have a grudge against him or all the
targaryens for reasons that you may already know.
But I'll explain when we get to that section.
I like the Idea. That it was just a commoner who
was a great warrior, maybe call. You would someone like that?
Yeah, maybe even someone who served in what do you call it
and mercenary companies and SOS to travel the world or not
necessarily someone with the age old Grudge, or a standard night.
I thought, I like the idea of it being a more common person who
just Rose through the ranks as a warrior Champion, that's cool.
Yeah I like that idea. Either way when you have a
scenario like that, it's almost like a Highlander situation
where two people with great reputations.
Come together only One of them is going to survive and that,
but that survivors reputation is going to be even greater
afterwards. And there was his reputation,
their name is lost at this guy. Yeah, that's for sure.
However, big a Target that Dragon Helm and white cloak and
Valyrian steel blade. Put on him, he defeated all
Challengers the battlefield, that is.
Now when it comes from sorts of Swords, clashing he had no peer,
but his skill at detecting intrigued poisoned Arrow.
Jumping in front of a side. We don't know how How skilled he
was at cloak-and-dagger, type stuff at enter, that's entry,
get backroom dealing and stuff like that or how Savvy he wasn't
that regard. Maybe not very.
Hey, you know, very just seems like a cup daddy wouldn't think
along those lines that much. So, be hard for him to put
himself in the shoes of that type of thinker and thus
anticipate their moves though, that is what a kingsguard is
supposed to be able to do. That doesn't mean it was, his
particular skill set, but he was elected Lord Commander at some
point. I don't think he was yet.
But he may have had that skill which was what enabled him to be
Lord Commander or he was Lord Commander because he was just so
trusted and he was a Targaryen and that was why either way we
discussed again like a lot of the daeron the young dragon and
stuff. There's more detail in that
episode but the short version is in the year 161 after the flare
up of hostilities and after those went the targaryens way
again, darn, apparently was ready to talk peace again,
apparently. But the dornish, use the parley
to Spring an ambush and killed the king and several kingsguard.
But Prince Haman was captured alive after apparently, killing
two of the photos that were engaged in this Ambush.
Since he wound up in the hands of house, will probably who
captured him during the engagement.
They probably got to hold on to their prisoner.
But no matter who captured him, it's intrigued that it happened
at all, not just because of how difficult it must have been but
because what do you think about this Sean and show you way into,
if you want to? It seems a little peculiar like
it's almost like they wanted to capture him because it's like I
said that's harsh The Carter to capture a guy then to kill him
in a spot like this. I think when he's willing to
fight to the death to save his King and they would know that
about him. It's almost like they wanted a
hostage and he'd be the only other Targaryen around like they
want to kill the king. So they need a hostage to maybe
prevent the blowback and to say, okay now, you won't be attacking
us anymore because we have the Dragon Knight in captivity.
Does that ring true to you or because or am I missing
something? Because the capturing part seems
a little odd like what would caught like he wouldn't
surrender. Well, maybe this bottom, right,
someone did surrender like one of the King's Guard did
surrender, mercy of the people who follow, you know, that
right? I think I don't know if it was
necessarily a plan in the first place.
It might have been a convenient thing to happen but the way I
can see it happening because I also can't imagine from a
distance. So am I thinking oh you live.
But the king died. You live with the other two.
Like how pretty convenient for you?
You might look like something was set up or he didn't fight
hard enough. That's why I pointed out one of
them did surrender and three of the others right killed.
I think he was good enough at fighting that they weren't able
to kill him if they're outnumbered and an ambush of
this sort. They might have literally been
outnumbered, 10 to 1, right? It might have been like a
hundred people attacking a dozen, but eventually, he's the
last one fighting and here's 50 people around him in a circle at
that point, even if he doesn't surrender, it might be possible
or more likely, they might realize, like, hold on, he's a
Targaryen that salmon. I don't kill him and he might
still swing a sword and they might back off.
But eventually like he just collapsed in heat exhaustion or
they just won't guys engaging with his sword.
Someone tackles a bum from behind and six people sit on
them and I'm like, okay, we got you finally.
Yeah, okay I think the I think that he could have just fought
them off and told he was so extremely out number.
There's no way he could be passed out from blood loss but
didn't die. Yeah, okay, yeah there's a lot
of scenario. You're right.
It doesn't have to be. They went into the idea of cash
but I think maybe but I think they would have made if they
didn't go into the Ambush with the plan of capturing him.
They I like your idea that they had that it developed and they
were like, maybe we should capture him.
Yeah, Nina attends to take your side that she's a little iffy on
the idea of them planning, to capture the Dragon II.
Still hold onto the ideas as possible because I think as I
definitely value in having a hostage they had to know that
this would be a really big deal, it just killed the king, you
know, and the whole of Westeros would rise for that potentially
and they would want a way to push back against that or to
stop it and something just to curb that To curb their
enthusiasm about revenge, so that other kings guard who
surrendered was also captured. We don't know what happened to
him. I guess he just another big
Westeros was like, we don't want him back like send him to the
wall. If you give him back to us,
we're just gonna send him to the wall.
So we're not paying his family pay for him but their crowns,
not paying for him. Like you said, it's shades of
Arthur Dayne at the tower of Joy, like he may have been
vastly outnumbered but he's gonna go down fighting that
doesn't mean he didn't pass out first or Throw a net on him or
something, you know, the ropes still it must have been
difficult. However he was captured, it
couldn't have been like easy because he did kill people in
the process and also has, it's not, it's also important not to
forget the huge psychological impacts event may have had on a
man himself, while Amon had served for a few years.
In the kingsguard, under his uncle leg on the third.
There's not much a man was like, doing in the way of actively
defending the King's life or fighting Wars for him.
Egg on the third's Reign was peaceful, even though it was
troubled on a personal level, there wasn't like the threat of
War. Or or anything like that going
on. So it was a peaceful time in
terms of terms of that under dare on the first though, just
immediately that the stability is tossed aside in favor of
starting a war. So this is maybe when he's
really tested. Well, yeah, Amon was a
kingsguard for a long time, but his job might have been kind of
easy. Not that he didn't take it very
seriously and I thought he didn't probably go beyond a go,
the extra mile, but there just wasn't that many threats when
you get down to it, but here and The battlefield.
I mean, and assassination attempts poison arrows, like,
constant threats, constant things going on.
You wonder if maybe a man felt more alive.
More useful until this, until his King is killed in front of
him. That may have.
It all comes crashing down and his failure is emphasized.
And yeah, like you said, Sean people would be talking like,
how did you live? He'd probably yeah, I should be
dead. I should have died with my king.
You're not you're not wrong like I didn't, he wouldn't Agree with
the treason part, but he would agree with the he would feel
some guilt or Shame about having not done enough.
Yeah, whatever responsibility was his and he and he failed.
And remember that egg on him to send you created the kingsguard
because of dornish Assassins, that was like, the first impetus
for it because he had his personal guard and visenya was
just realizing how they were not sufficient, and it was dornish
assassins that were the threat at the time because of all the
damage they had done to door. And I mean, the darkness Since
we're fairly Justified but still that's beside the point and a
man might have been aware of that been like oh I should have
been more aware or weary of this type of warfare from the dornish
and maybe was kicking himself for not seeing it coming, maybe
not speaking up. But again, he probably wasn't in
charge, he wasn't the Lord Commander.
But also again this is a guy who probably took more
responsibility on and most people would he would blame
himself for things like you said earlier, shum that wouldn't
necessarily be EB other people wouldn't blame him for now.
I think he did enough here. I think this is just the
dornish, outplayed them and are on.
Shouldn't have invaded, do it in the first place.
As we said before beerus, it considers it.
A failure that rhaegar and Robert and aerosol died under
his watch even know there was almost a other than some like,
political maneuvering behind the scenes to prevent scenarios from
coming up in the first place. Which one, you can't be sure
what have worked and Aren't really in the realm of.
Is that of the time to do? Egg Harrison, you're supposed to
be a guard outside, the kings door.
Hold on, I'm plotting with little finger right now.
Don't worry, I'm trying to say the King's life, like, hold on,
I'm plotting with little thing that's great.
Now, house will of all the houses to get captured by, you
would not pick house will. If you were a man, you would
have chosen a different Darkness Shadows, none of them, probably
all that good. But this will be one of the
least, one of the last four choices because of that
reputation there. Close to the border the
stormlands which is a very violent area rating back and
forth for centuries Generations. It was, they who chopped off the
hand of orys Baratheon? Who was aegon the conquerors.
Half-brother during that first dornish war which was followed
by a guns. Hmm.
Where there's a will, there's a way, was there ever a?
We'll wait. Orys, Baratheon was also hand.
Yeah, the first-ever aegon the Conqueror.
Tried to avenge his half-brother by sending.
By writing balerion to torch their Castle.
But their Castle is sort of embedded or close to some caves.
So they pulled a Crag, a scrap feeder from the TV show where
they just hid in the cave and ever the dragon was around.
They just went into caves and the dragon couldn't do much of
the K. The castle got screwed up pretty
bad, but it didn't really affect the people didn't really affect
the soldiers or house Wills well to live.
Yeah, well Selangor. There are the members of the
family and then later there was another war and or he's got his
revenge or he's chopped the hands and And feet off of that.
Lord Wills son, who is the new Lord?
Will he called it Usery? You know, interest rates lucky
for Amon. Perhaps the current Lord will
wasn't quite so nasty, but he could have gotten away with it.
He absolutely could have chopped off a limb and still and and had
no punishment come for him. Because baelor the Blessed was
so determined to make peace with Dorn.
He was willing to forgive a lot because his Is the aggressor.
So with that in mind bail or walked Barefoot from King's
Landing to sunspear to apologize and to make peace, it's not
clear that aemon. The dragonknight knew this was
happening when it was happening because he's in house Wheels,
captivity and honestly gonna tell him that this is happening.
They might not even know it's happening.
They probably know they would have because he would have
passed by their rent, eventually, I guess.
But yeah, I don't know when he left probably took months to
walk. Yes.
It was a big deal. And here's the thing, the
sentiment is real interesting sentiment that would've been
going around Dorn, those people who really thought about it, the
really pragmatic ones. We've been like, leave him
alone. Don't kill him.
This is exactly the king we want on the Iron Throne the guy
that's yes, that to make peace. We want this guy on the throne
as long as possible. He's the best neighbor we went
from murderous conquering neighbor and forget all the
Targaryen who came before that maybe Becerra.
And so bad. But there's plenty of bad ones,
egg on Meg or like, you know what you really want to roll the
dice again? No, keep this guy.
This is the guy you want pass offense looking for forgiveness
as yeah. It's so obvious when you frame
it like that, but some of these darkish men there, they don't
think like that. They're like, what are the
ironborn? Say, no Cravens, peace and house
will probably amongst the most aggressive because they're
garnish Marchers there on the border because successful and
admired the ironborn Who knows what a man knew, who knows what
the wheels were telling him. It may have been lying to him
about how we're going to do this.
We're going to kill you. We're going to just one more
day. We're going to torture you, and
then is wouldn't happen. I don't know what probably a lot
of psychological torment. Probably didn't treat him great,
but they didn't cut his limbs off.
They could have been worse. It would have been an
interesting time for him. We have talked about doing an
episode on prisoners and one day we will because it's such an
interesting setup for a chapter, you can't do anything, you're in
prison. So you all you can do is think
Reflect and that can make for some really interesting stuff,
memories history, conflict, just characters think about to get it
done differently. Dabo spends some great time in
prison Tyrion, net. I mean, there's some really good
ones. I've thought about this quite a
lot. By the way, it's harder to think
of a character who hasn't been imprisoned character the have,
especially when you consider people like in caps on scenario
who might not have like been in a jail cell but they really they
were pretty a brand was also like with the on took
Winterfell, right? Rick and with him Ed Jamie, some
people multiple times Brianne. Even Joshua was locked up John
when he drew a sword at tried to go after Al Sur.
Yeah. Yeah.
You're totally right. And he was a prisoner of the
wildlings when he twice, you're right.
Yeah, I'm in telling on and on almost every character has been
prisoner and most of them prisoners multiple times or may
not most put a bunch, a lot of point out of the central
characters, don't know. Just like you could argue that
they're basically prisoner. Yeah, exactly.
There's times when you like Aria is just what she's After the
mountain. Yes, she's a prisoner.
And then we should capture the hound still a prisoner later
when he doesn't care about her running away.
Maybe not. But yeah, but that's part of
what makes it so interesting. By the way, it Danny, yes.
Actively a prisoner and multiple scenarios and like start start.
Start thinking about it. Yeah, if you just start
listening out characters, your prisoner, or no, like, there are
way less nose. And yes, that's a great Point.
John, you're very good, very, very true.
So Heyman, think about this, like we don't know, there's a
lot of holes in what we think about his person.
A lot of stuff we projected on his personality, but this would
Analyze, This would come out if this ever is on TB or gets
written to be a really powerful scene or multiple scenes.
Potentially and you already see why this would make for a pretty
good TV. A lot of this stuff just you got
everything. You got great family drama,
you've got a great world. We already know you got a great
world and so many great characters.
Yeah. And you got we've got war and
drama. You've got all of, you got all
the stuff. It's all the stuff, the Game of
Thrones does well, maybe some people in house I actually had a
different attitude, like something, I can picture them,
tormenting him or teasing him, but maybe some of them.
This is a legendary Targaryen Warrior.
Prince, whose thought of, as a good person, like you might
cease like some kid coming to talk to him and being curious
about him, like, like Davos and Shireen, right?
Like that kind of thing where they're connecting in a
scenario, where the person in jail isn't really in jail for
being a bad person, you know, and they're making connection
with a kid who isn't fully understanding everything that's
happened, you know. Fully grasp politics and the
family drama and all the other stuff that's going on, which
enables a connection to be made. Lots of room for said, I'm
really turning. I've all the moments for me to
turn into a TV scene. It's the the jail scene.
Yep man. You had the Battle of stuff in.
Don't like you have him in the dornish past taken a narrow but
this is yeah that's easy to imagine being cinematic like an
ambush scene and all that so I don't have to describe that.
Regardless of what was happening in the wills dungeon regardless
of what Amon knew about, the what the peace walk, the peace
walk was happening and it would have come to a head when one day
they pulled him out of his cell but am in another cell outside.
In a cage, hanging over a pit of vipers.
What comes into his head? At this point, he's like, What
are they doing? Why don't they just kill me like
this supposed to frighten me? I was I'm not any more
frightened than I already was. I'm already in jail, like I'm at
your mercy. This doesn't really change
anything. It's less comfortable out here
in the hot sun. Maybe are you torturing me, why
the Viper so, like, what's the point?
I can't get out of this cage. Anyway like what's the deal
here, if he knew Baylor was on his walk, he might figure out
that he's bait. Yeah, he might figure that out.
And then he would start to word out a side.
He might even aside for knowing Bayless on a walk realizing he's
baby, may not realize who he's made for, you're right, he might
not realize yesterday lower, but he would realize that he's bait.
Yeah. And I think that he would
realize that this isn't to intimidate him, it's for someone
else he's being made into a spectacle for someone else's
benefit at first that benefit would be house will.
We're told that they laughed and sat there and watched, and just
joked about it because they were ordered to let a man.
Go, presumably by the martel's after bail or walk to Dorne.
He didn't just say, hey, peace. And Gee, he arranged the
marriage of the future. Dare on the second Hague on.
In Aries, his child to Mariah Martell who was the daughter of
the prince of Dorne at the time. So they also had a marriage
arrangement in place at that point.
So that's part of my house will had limited.
They couldn't just kill a man because that would throw off the
piece and they would really be in trouble with sunspear if they
just violated this peace deal that they're overloaded made.
But they had some wiggle room, and this is what they did.
They said, okay, well, we're going Will be jerks about,
that's why they could have gotten away with cutting a
handoff, right? Taylor?
Wouldn't have thrown the whole peace deal away off of for that
reason. It would have just been
upsetting but they absolutely had that room to maneuver to
maim. So when Baylor comes walking up,
the will start laughing and Eamonn starts to realize what's
going on. He's like my king.
Leave me. Don't just go, just keep going,
your life is more important and the rules will be laughing
because a man's right there. Like yeah, his life is more
important if this guy dies, we all go back to work again.
And Maybe with the wheels want but a man doesn't want it.
So he's totally totally willing to die.
We've already seen jump in front of a poisoned arrow and it's
sort of his duty as a kingsguard to it that his way of protecting
him at this moment is keeping himself from being saved.
Yes, not only, is it his duty but he knows what's at stake.
Probably probably have enough time to think about it.
He knows that if Baal or dies here.
So many more people will die. It's not the same.
With with Darren with arguments were a little different saving.
Darren's life might not have saved.
A bunch of other people's lives, maybe it would have because of
the Revenge Factor but this is a lot clearer.
Having the guy at the top who was a pacifist, a lot of people
in Dorne wanted that. So did a lot OS, Taurasi,
probably and Prince Haman was probably one of them.
It's probably like, yeah, the pious guy.
I'm the I'm a Pious guy. He probably liked bail or you
may have like Darren to because he was good at fighting but I'm
guessing of the two, he probably side and more with bail or on
like how to rule and other stuff which See in our next episode
because the reign of Baal or is where we're going to be starting
where we're leaving things now is kind of a cliffhanger, a cage
hanger, some of you already, kind of know what happens but as
we're leaving things bail, or is approaching bare feet, hot,
probably very sunburned which would look kind of funny because
I always picture the targaryens is very pale skinned.
It's get my to toughen up at this point.
You can walk around the Sun for months and months and months.
You're right. This is on the way home son.
Yeah, I do. I remembered all this from
Baylor. I got I remember being inspired
by this. That's one of my favorite little
bit. The other thing I'll be very
cinematic, right? This Seen On TV would be just
like Baal or like the wills laughing and joking and being
cruel bail or being like determined and Amon just being
desperate to get bail or to not die.
Like no, don't die man. If you died hundreds of
thousands more people will die or tens of that, something like
that. So it went from him being may be
confused to like why are they doing this?
Like, oh my God, Baal or stay away, just great drama.
Great intensity, what a moment, George r.r., Martin, you did it
again. So, yeah, this was only halfway
through, I guess being mentioned. 90 times means you
can't fit into one episode, go figure.
So we will be back next week with the continuing Saga of
Prince aemon. The dragonknight, we haven't
even gotten to the reign of egg on yet.
We have a whole range of bail or a brief reign of viserys the
second House, twine, we've got the birth of a bunch of black
fires. We've got all sorts of cool
stuff next time, around stuff that you have some familiarity
with. But this is from a totally
different angle from a totally different lens.
A character whose view on these things would be very different
than a average view or the view from say, aegon, the Unworthy,
these respective or one of the Blackfriars, so should be
awesome. We're really looking forward to
it. I had so much fun writing this
episode Nina did as well. That's why we wrote so much Sean
and she had some great Takes great comments stuff that we
didn't think of until I'm fired up even though we're wrapping it
up here. Haha let's record part to right
now it's great to actually have some more to write for it.
I once I when I realized it was to stop focusing on the second
half as much and just put the rest of my effort into part 1
but it is mostly done. Trivia question.
The question again was Loris Jamie and aemon.
The dragonknight were among the youngest ever to join the
kingsguard. The youngest ever was Roland
darkling. Oh yeah.
How's darkling. Who is the house that has
supplied the most ever Knight of the kingsguard?
I think it's seven which is way the most we did get someone who
correctly, guessed that great, who is the good guesser?
I'll shout them out. Can I scroll to talk to?
I think it was whereas the person who guessed it was Thomas
doll guests first and then Krieger damn wrongs that they
agreed. There was a shortly after but it
was Thomas Delk with us. The Queue at the end.
Very nice. Good job y'all.
Yeah, they're as usual. I like to make the trivia
question, pretty hard one. That's sometimes a trivia
question. How many Starks have been on the
kingsguard? Big fat?
Zero zero? Yeah, 0 partly.
Cuz of the Knighthood thing, I think like sand or members felt
that was the one I thought but I don't know who I stand or broke
that tradition of being the first one to not be a night.
There may have been waiting for the but I don't think so and not
that Stark can't be Knights. It's just not very common.
I can't name. Mmmmm a Stark that was knighted,
there's probably been a few. There's definitely Northerners a
good night, it occasionally, but usually they worship your God.
So they just, it's just a title. They don't take on there.
They can be just as chicken fight just as well as nice
whatever brand have being obsessed with that.
He's like, yeah. But how many of them nights and
Luann's like there's no difference like the northern
northern warriors on Horseback or the same.
They just aren't called that he's like yeah.
But how many nights brand was very obsessed with the grandma?
If bran He had gotten what he wanted the way he wanted been
the first. Yeah, he might have been the
first Northern King start kingsguard.
Yeah, that's what that's what that quote said he's.
He wanted to be a kingsguard he and his father wasn't certainly
wasn't saying no to him. At that point it we all know it.
Ned thought of that Duty and it's probably probably fought
pretty probably would have thought highly of it.
You know it's not like he needed not like Ned was expecting him
to inherit at the time with with Rob around So next week of
course, is part 2 and we already had our Poll for the episode
that would normally have been next week, but has been bumped a
week. I titled, the pole Judgement Day
/ night, / Dawn, / dusk because it's more of an investigative
questioning episode of the topics were, was it murder which
is reviewing suspicious deaths throughout history and in the
main story and weighing in on whether with murder not hidden
identities which is a delving into certain characters whose
appearances? We don't know who they were
necessarily like the hooded man in Winterfell.
For example, and who lives who dies are guesses on who's going
to make it through the series, but the winner was trial by
Theory. We're going to review series
that are out there in the fandom both of the crazy and not so
crazy variety will have fun with a little Bose.
Many of them will come suggested by y'all.
So if you have theories you want us to talk about start letting
us know and we'll weigh in on them will judge them for their
quality their likelihood to Be true and stuff like that.
It'll be a lot of fun, little bit different style episode, but
that'll be in two weeks. And there's other topics will
have a chance to get made one day.
If you sign up for patreon and vote for them, you can push them
in the direction you like that is how that works.
We have a poll almost every week.
We also occasionally have all's for the scripted episodes that
are available to the higher-level patrons.
We mentioned quite a few of our other episodes in this one a
daeron the young Dragon Dark sister.
The Lost Valyrian steel. Aegon the Unworthy and her black
Fire series the free city of lists probably some others
that's a good place to start. If you want to check those out,
if want to stay immersed, if you were feeling sad that this
episode is over and you want to stay in Westeros.
Well, those are some great choices for you.
A lot of them even deal with the same time.
Thanks to everyone who came and check this out, live, appreciate
the thoughts from Nina. Appreciate the live comments and
questions. Thanks as always to Shawna seye.
If you joined us on patreon or through a Spotify subscription,
we thank you very much for the financial support.
One of the most important things going on.
Keep the show going, we do have sponsors, but it is patreon and
the Spotify subscriptions that matter the most because that is
the consistent, every month thing that we can count on
whereas sponsors are Are here and there sometimes as we don't
Can't rely on that, it's all great.
So you guys are the anchor, the core thing that matters the
most, we appreciate that support, whatever.
Form it comes, whichever site you choose to support us on
whether it's a one-time donation, through our website or
recurring sponsorship through patreon or Spotify.
Honestly, the other great way to support, as if you don't feel
that you have the money to donate, I think it's just as
valuable to to Us to share the word, you know, not just like on
social media. But if you have people in your
life, that would be interested. I think that is also just as
valuable to us. I agree where your history
Westeros shirt. True.
Get history. I think like yeah.
If you ain't which also costs money, but the point is, I also
appreciate the support and sharing the show.
I suppose, just as much as I appreciate it in the monetary
value, I agree that I think there's something a little more
special about someone being genuinely enthusiastic enough to
tell their friends about us. That that something Out that
just makes me feel that's more about what it's about, we need
the money to live, you know? But I've care about the respect
and regard more, you know, on an emotional level.
So yeah, that does mean thanks as well to Joey, Jesse and brand
for our Music. Our intros are various intros
and things that we use depending on which format we're going with
On Any Given Sunday or even occasionally other days.
Thanks a lot to Michael Clara. Felled for the maps in our
original video intro, we love you Michael and we'll see you
all. again, next week for part 2 and more, you know, what to do
in the meantime, Valar reread it