1
00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:09,720
Deron's reign quickly stabilized
the realm, and he soon came to 

2
00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:13,080
be called Deron the Good by the 
small folk and noble Lords 

3
00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:15,640
alike. 
He was widely seen as just and 

4
00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:18,120
good hearted, even if some 
question the influence of his 

5
00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:20,760
Dornish wife. 
And though he was no warrior, 

6
00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:23,760
descriptions of the era note 
that he was small of frame, with

7
00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:27,560
thin arms round shoulders in a 
scholarly disposition. 2 of his 

8
00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:30,920
four sons seemed all that could 
be wished in a Night Lord or 

9
00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:33,000
air. 
Yet too many men looked upon 

10
00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:36,320
Baylor's dark hair and eyes and 
muttered that he was more Martel

11
00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:39,040
than Targaryen, even though he 
proved a man who could win 

12
00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:42,080
respect with ease and was as 
open handed and just as his 

13
00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:44,560
father. 
Knights and Lords of the Dornish

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Marches came to mistrust Aeron 
and Baylor as well. 

15
00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:50,680
And then they would look at 
Damon Blackfire, grown tall and 

16
00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:53,760
powerful, half a God among 
mortal men and with a 

17
00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:56,840
conqueror's sword in his 
possession, and wonder. 

18
00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:01,040
So as Egon the Unworthy's reign 
set the stage and sowed the 

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00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:03,840
seeds for the Black Fire 
rebellions via the fathering of 

20
00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:06,640
so many of the main 
participants, the reign of his 

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00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:09,560
son, Darren the Second, was a 
time for those seeds to grow, 

22
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for them to turn into great 
Princess, great bastards, and 

23
00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:18,400
great problems. 
As these seeds grew, so did they

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00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:20,640
begin to flower. 
The blooms took one of two 

25
00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:24,480
colors, red or black. 
Hello and welcome again to 

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00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:27,360
another episode of History of 
Westeros podcast, the podcast 

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00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:30,600
dedicated to the Song of Ice and
Fire book series as well as 

28
00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:32,400
George RR Martin's Game of 
Thrones. 

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00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:36,440
Not much, rather HB OS Game of 
Thrones, not much HBO discussion

30
00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:39,240
today. 
We are all history today and we 

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00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:41,720
have a very special guest with 
us. 

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00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:45,840
Let me introduce Steven Atwell 
of Race of the Iron Throne. 

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00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:48,120
You can go ahead and introduce 
yourself. 

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00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:51,240
Steve, tell us who you are. 
OK, my name is Steven Atwell. 

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00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:55,360
I write Race for the Iron Throne
which is a chapter by chapter 

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00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:59,680
and episode by episode study of 
the history and politics behind 

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00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:01,680
The Song of Ice and Fire and 
Game of Thrones. 

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00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:06,880
I also do a podcast on Game of 
Thrones for lawyers, Guns and 

39
00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:09,160
money, and I do guest 
appearances on a number of 

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00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:12,760
podcasts, including this one. 
I also write essays for Tower of

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00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:15,760
Lahan. 
Yeah, so nice string of titles 

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00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:17,760
there. 
We're we're really happy to have

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00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:20,200
you on the show. 
And this was very fortuitous, 

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00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:24,120
the timing, Steve, you've been 
working on your own essays on 

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00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:26,560
the Blackfyre rebellions. 
And as we were working on these 

46
00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:28,520
this podcast, it just seemed 
like a natural fit. 

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00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:31,520
And that's one of the great 
things about the Assange of Ice 

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00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:34,640
and Fire community. 
There's good people out there 

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00:02:34,640 --> 00:02:37,520
that are really knowledgeable 
and we're happy to have one of 

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the best here with us today. 
Unfortunately, there's no Shia 

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00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:42,480
today. 
This is not related to the 

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00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:44,760
illness that she had in our last
episode. 

53
00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:47,160
She actually wasn't scheduled to
be a part of this episode. 

54
00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:50,000
We had planned for it just to be
me and Steve a while ago. 

55
00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:52,680
And that just kind of happened 
to work out for two in a row her

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00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:54,880
not being here. 
But no worries, she'll be back 

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00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:59,600
for Part 3, which will focus on 
Damon Blackfyre himself, and 

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00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:01,720
that will probably not be too 
far in the future. 

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00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:05,120
So let us talk about a couple 
other things before we get 

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00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:07,920
started. 
One other thing that Steve and 

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Shay and I have worked together 
on is the upcoming Tower of the 

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Hand publication, A Hymn for 
Spring, which is a collection of

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essays by some of the people in 
the Song of Ice and Fire 

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community podcasters, essay 
writers, bloggers, etcetera. 

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And a lot of the people you guys
have heard of before, there's 

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essays by by Amin Javadi of a 
podcast of Ice and Fire, Stefan 

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00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:32,560
Sasa, Steven Atwell, myself and 
Ashaya. 

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And who else is in that I don't 
have? 

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00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:36,680
Jeff Hartline. 
Jeff Hartline, of course, how 

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00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:40,600
can I forget Brendan B Fish and 
I guess there's a couple others 

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00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:42,120
who's I'm who I'm forgetting, 
but it's going to be, we're 

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00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:43,320
going to talk about the book 
more. 

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The release date is April 15th. 
We actually have a firm date 

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00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:49,520
finally. 
We've had a couple of delays, 

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00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:52,520
but we're pleased to announce 
that it's coming out soon. 

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And of course, that's right 
after the TV season starts. 

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So there'll be lots of things to
have fun with. 

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00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:02,280
Now, as far as this episode 
goes, we're very excited to 

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00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:04,360
continue with the tale of the 
Blackfyre Rebellions. 

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Of course, it's a huge topic. 
There's a lot of different 

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00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:11,920
characters involved, and we've 
been trying to build up to it 

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00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:15,520
gradually by showing the people 
that had the most to do with 

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00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:19,160
putting it into the spot that it
is now and getting it into the 

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00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:21,399
fantasy history books that we 
love so much. 

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00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:26,440
So we're going to to a few notes
here on how this episode's going

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00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:28,920
to work. 
It's a little bit along the 

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00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:30,920
lines of something we've been 
talking about a while, which is 

88
00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:33,880
getting a little bit more open 
discussion to mix in with our 

89
00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:35,920
scripting. 
Now, of course, the scripting 

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00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:38,840
allows us to deliver things 
efficiently, but some people 

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00:04:38,840 --> 00:04:41,680
also like the discussion feel, 
and there's really no reason why

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00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:45,360
we can't have a little of both. 
So this is this is a great 

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00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:47,520
opportunity for us to do a lot 
of that because Steven is 

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00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:49,520
extremely knowledgeable about 
this topic and we can kind of 

95
00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:52,800
just go off and and have 
conversations and see where it 

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00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:54,960
goes. 
So we'll have a lot of a lot of 

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00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:57,000
stuff that we prepared and 
worked really hard on and 

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00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:59,520
researched, but we also have 
some things that we planned on 

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00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:01,760
just seeing what happens and how
it comes out during the episode.

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00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:05,360
So that should be fun. 
As with last time, we're going 

101
00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:09,160
to call Deron the second the 
good our Deron at times kind of 

102
00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:12,080
hot like how we called egg on 
the unworthy our egg on because 

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00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:15,240
there's a lot of egg ONS and 
derons and all that. 

104
00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:18,760
The name should be a little 
easier to handle this time, but 

105
00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:21,520
still it can get a little 
confusing so that that warning 

106
00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:25,880
is important. 
Now the period immediately after

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00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:30,080
the Dance of the Dragons saw the
so-called False Dawn, Hour of 

108
00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:33,520
the Wolf and Regents War. 
These were all little nicknames 

109
00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:37,440
for these short lived time 
periods that followed the Dance 

110
00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:40,080
of the Dragons. 
But after all these troubles 

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00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:43,600
were over and Aegon the Third 
took over and started to rule in

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00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:46,000
his own right, there was a bit 
of an interim. 

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00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:47,560
There were still troubles 
because there's always some 

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00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:49,360
troubles, but there's there was 
nothing huge. 

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00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:52,120
It was a bit of a interim 
period, we'll call it. 

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00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:55,800
The hostilities that we're aware
of during the time involved 

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00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:58,480
aggression towards Doran. 
It was more of the Iron Throne 

118
00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:01,960
starting things rather than 
having a lot of outside or 

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00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:05,160
external threats to worry about.
So there may have been while 

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00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:07,400
there may have been other 
rebellions or trouble during 

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00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:11,600
this time, we don't really know 
of it, but Tyrion himself 

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00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:13,440
reminded us that some things are
inevitable. 

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00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:16,880
I'm certain of nothing but 
winter and battle. 

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00:06:17,280 --> 00:06:21,480
So part one, the first dragon 
after the Dragons. 

125
00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:24,560
This is the time period of 153 
to 161. 

126
00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:27,520
Argaron was born on the last day
of 153. 

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00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:30,640
He was the first Targaryen born 
after the Dragons went extinct, 

128
00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:32,920
the last dragon having been weak
and stunted. 

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00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:35,800
Though the Targaryen line 
produced great warriors like 

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00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:39,840
Agon the Conqueror, Magor, Damon
the Rogue Prince, and the Young 

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00:06:39,840 --> 00:06:43,560
Dragon, there were also a fair 
share of men from the Anies 

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00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:46,920
Baylor the blessed model. 
Instead of being tall and well 

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00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:50,760
muscled like his father before 
gluttony overcame him, Arderon 

134
00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:54,200
was spindly limbed and had a 
very unwarlike belly. 

135
00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:58,280
This was used against him later.
Damon Blackfyre, whose 

136
00:06:58,280 --> 00:07:01,160
supporters saw him as no less 
than you know the warrior 

137
00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:03,840
Incarnate, would frequently 
point to this huge disparity 

138
00:07:03,840 --> 00:07:05,680
between them. 
It was a major piece of 

139
00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:09,160
propaganda, but we all know 
better than to judge a king by 

140
00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:12,560
how well he could fight. 
Robert Baratheon being the great

141
00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:16,240
best example probably of that. 
In fact, none of those examples 

142
00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:18,360
were shining. 
In fact, with the possible 

143
00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:19,720
exception of the Conqueror 
himself. 

144
00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:21,560
And I'm not even 100% sold on 
him. 

145
00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:25,120
So gods and genetics may have 
stinted him in physical 

146
00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:27,520
characteristics, but think again
of Tyrion. 

147
00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:31,080
He had a great mind. 
So Steven, let's start off here 

148
00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:34,000
with something simple. 
Let's let's start off with an 

149
00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:35,920
easy discussion topic just to 
get warmed up. 

150
00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:41,040
Who do you think the best 3 and 
worst three Targaryen kings 

151
00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:44,160
were? 
Especially keeping in mind where

152
00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:46,480
you might rank Deron in 
reference to these guys, and 

153
00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:48,800
where you might rank Aegon in 
reference to these guys. 

154
00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:52,480
Yeah, I was actually thinking 
about this a bunch today. 

155
00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:55,560
I definitely think sort of in my
top three. 

156
00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:59,000
I mean, Jeharis, the first, 
Aegon the Conqueror I think are 

157
00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:02,880
easy fits just because of how 
significant and how important 

158
00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:06,080
they are. 
But I was really split between, 

159
00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:11,120
you know, Deron and Aegon the 
5th, and they kind of are are 

160
00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:14,920
similar in a way in that they 
are both kings who tried to push

161
00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:20,320
a series of reforms, a series of
changes very far and very fast 

162
00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:24,560
with mixed levels of success. 
Personally, because I'm on team 

163
00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:31,000
small folk, Aegon the 5th gets 
my pick for for top three and 

164
00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:33,400
they're on the second. 
Just kind of falls a little bit 

165
00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:34,600
short. 
OK. 

166
00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:37,120
So he maybe is in the top five, 
not quite the top three. 

167
00:08:37,159 --> 00:08:39,120
Sure. 
That's, that's about where I 

168
00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:40,799
would put him. 
I think I would, I would have 

169
00:08:40,799 --> 00:08:42,200
the Conqueror maybe a little bit
lower. 

170
00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:45,960
My complaint with him is that he
didn't set up his, his son's 

171
00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:48,560
very well to handle the problems
that were coming. 

172
00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:51,880
And those were since those were 
pretty major problems, right? 

173
00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:54,560
I give him, I take a few knocks 
off of his book. 

174
00:08:54,560 --> 00:08:55,920
But Darren did a lot of those 
same things. 

175
00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:58,520
He he had a lot of things that I
think saw he he should have seen

176
00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:00,400
coming or did see coming and 
just didn't handle them 

177
00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:02,080
properly. 
What about your bottom? 

178
00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:07,400
So bottom 3 is, I mean Eris. 
The second is I think an easy, 

179
00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:09,320
but you know, he brought his 
house down. 

180
00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:11,880
He tried to murder hundreds of 
thousands of people. 

181
00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:17,720
He was completely insane. 
Yeah, the one that I, I'm added 

182
00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:21,600
on after reading the War of Ice 
and Fire and rereading the 

183
00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:23,760
Dunkin Egg story, Cruz is 
heiress, the first. 

184
00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:26,840
He really does seem to have been
someone who sort of 

185
00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:32,800
systematically neglected his 
responsibilities as as King of 

186
00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:35,480
Westeros. 
That's a good point. 

187
00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:38,520
Yeah. 
And the, the, the third slot, 

188
00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:40,360
and I don't particularly rank 
these. 

189
00:09:40,560 --> 00:09:46,280
I was a little bit split between
Aegon the 4th and Megor the 

190
00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:51,600
Cruel in the sense that I mean, 
Megor did some awful things. 

191
00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:54,800
And on the other hand, I don't 
think we can call him 

192
00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:57,200
ineffective. 
That's a good whereas Aegon the 

193
00:09:57,200 --> 00:10:01,760
4th, you know, was certainly 
kind of less, you know, if if we

194
00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:07,080
stack up the thousands of lives 
versus, you know, a few 100, you

195
00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:12,880
know, he was certainly less kind
of explicitly violent, but more 

196
00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:17,080
neglectful and more, more 
incompetent. 

197
00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:21,600
So it's sort of how do you, how 
do you compare brutality versus 

198
00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:24,040
incompetence? 
Yeah, that is a tough call. 

199
00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:27,440
Incompetent brutality would be 
the worst I suppose. 

200
00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:30,520
Yeah. 
Which a little bit of Aries the 

201
00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:32,240
Second comes in there maybe a 
lot of them. 

202
00:10:32,680 --> 00:10:36,360
OK, so, but, but Speaking of 
Aegon the Unworthy, our Deron's 

203
00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:39,840
father, he of course started 
fathering bastards soon after 

204
00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:42,800
Deron's birth and may have 
already fathered a girl and 

205
00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:45,400
Selena Stokeworth before Deron 
was born. 

206
00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:48,760
Now Darren was close to his 
mother Nerys, and like her, he 

207
00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:52,560
was pious, so he most likely 
despised this embarrassment. 

208
00:10:52,560 --> 00:10:55,280
And of course, given how 
contentious Darren and Aegon's 

209
00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:59,120
relationships were in the 
future, it seems pretty likely 

210
00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:03,280
that it that they had these 
issues pretty early on as well. 

211
00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:07,120
It's, it's I'm, I'm of a, I'm of
a mind to believe that, that 

212
00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:11,320
most things Darren sided with 
his mother and with Amon the 

213
00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:13,320
dragon knight. 
Would you, would you agree with 

214
00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:14,360
that, Steve? 
Yeah. 

215
00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:18,160
I mean, you know, you see at a a
number of different points over 

216
00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:24,440
different issues that Naris, 
Amon and Darren will all kind of

217
00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:29,480
agree on similar things. 
Whether it's, you know, the 

218
00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:34,200
relationship between Naris and 
Agon the 4th, whether it's war 

219
00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:37,640
with Dorn, whether it's the 
Brackens in the Blackwoods, they

220
00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:40,120
all seem to to fall on the same 
side. 

221
00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:43,280
Yeah, and and with Baylor the 
Blessed a bit mixed in as well. 

222
00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:45,200
Of course, he'll he'll 
eventually die and be out of the

223
00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:48,160
picture. 
But it does seem that given 

224
00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:50,760
personality types, these guys 
were all kind of natural fits. 

225
00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:54,280
His uncle Darren's uncle, the 
Dragon Knight of course, and his

226
00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:59,600
grandfather Vassaris also would 
have been on his side at least 

227
00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:03,480
in part or in whole on many 
different issues. 

228
00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:07,040
But it doesn't seem like Aegon 
the Unworthy listened, even 

229
00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:11,640
when, say, several of them were,
you know, ganging up on him, 

230
00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:14,080
telling him that something 
needed to go a certain way. 

231
00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:19,480
But what are you going to do? 
So basically I would think that 

232
00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:24,640
Aegon's treatment of nares, 
especially later in life with 

233
00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:29,480
the how the pregnancies 
threatened her life on top of 

234
00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:32,000
all the embarrassment the the 
the sleeping around and all 

235
00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:35,640
that, would have squarely put 
Deron in his mother's corner and

236
00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:37,880
against his father very early 
on. 

237
00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:43,560
He was not yet 4 when Egon the 
Third, the king died. 

238
00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:46,240
Not his father obviously. 
Egon the Third, the Dragon Bane.

239
00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:48,800
And now, though a three-year old
is certainly capable of being 

240
00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:52,520
impacted by the death of Ken, we
don't really know whether our 

241
00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:55,480
Deron and Egon the Dragon Bane 
had any kind of relationship. 

242
00:12:55,480 --> 00:13:00,360
Egon the Third was real kind of 
reclusive and he didn't seem to 

243
00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:02,080
have a lot of friends. 
And of course this was just a 

244
00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:04,440
three-year old kid. 
So it's, it's really hard to say

245
00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:06,000
whether that was an issue or 
not. 

246
00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:12,160
So of course Darren the first 
was the next king, our Darren's 

247
00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:15,000
namesake, I suppose, and he 
ascended the throne and began 

248
00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:17,680
his conquest with Dorn, you 
know, almost right away. 

249
00:13:18,560 --> 00:13:21,720
Basically, he was not even of an
age of majority yet. 

250
00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:25,160
So it seems that many of 
Darren's earliest memories would

251
00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:29,000
be of his family of court and 
everything all being mobilized 

252
00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:31,800
to fight Dorn, which is a real 
interesting thing to think about

253
00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:36,200
when you consider how much he 
was pro peace towards Dorn later

254
00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:37,800
in life. 
He grows up as a child. 

255
00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:43,560
Everyone's against Dorn except 
for Baylor, and that is 

256
00:13:43,560 --> 00:13:45,320
something that we're going to 
touch on quite a bit. 

257
00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:48,160
So the young dragon was really 
active and things would have 

258
00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:52,560
been really busy, and then all 
of a sudden the war is on and, 

259
00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:56,560
you know, bunch of people are 
gone, the court is emptied out 

260
00:13:56,560 --> 00:13:59,320
and things are a lot different. 
So it would have been a really 

261
00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:02,400
interesting time for a young 
child to be affected by all 

262
00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:05,520
these court things that have all
this enmity towards a nation of 

263
00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:06,800
these people He's never even 
heard of. 

264
00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:10,640
Deron's father, as we discussed 
in the last episode, likely 

265
00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:14,080
fought in the war alongside the 
Young Dragon and the Dragon 

266
00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:17,640
Night, and that might have been 
when when Egg on the Unworthy 

267
00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:20,680
developed a lot of his dislike 
for Dorn, which we know burned 

268
00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:23,280
very brightly. 
It may not have been so bad 

269
00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:28,200
early on, but eventually it was 
really bad and his young mind 

270
00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:33,200
would have also spun about quite
a bit when he was 7, which is 

271
00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:36,800
when the young dragon died 
during a parlay in Dorn, and 

272
00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:39,280
that would have set a flame even
worse. 

273
00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:44,640
All that anti Dornish sentiment.
So that is our intro to Darren's

274
00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:46,360
young age. 
Now we're going to move on to 

275
00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:49,120
him as the apparent, heir 
apparent. 

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00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:53,800
But first, we have recently 
joined the audible.com partner 

277
00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:57,920
program and you can try them out
and support the podcast at the 

278
00:14:57,920 --> 00:14:58,760
same time. 
Go to 

279
00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:01,240
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trial. 

280
00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:05,360
You can get a 30 day free trial.
Don't doesn't cost you a dime 

281
00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:07,200
and you get 1 free download with
that. 

282
00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:11,320
Why not download the World of 
Ice and Fire or Game of Thrones?

283
00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:13,920
Try out the audiobooks? 
That is one of the things I've 

284
00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:17,400
done to get myself so well 
versed in the material is when 

285
00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:20,720
I'm doing chores I just listen 
to listen to the audiobooks and 

286
00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:25,240
podcasts of course. 
Anyway, Part 2 Apparent, heir 

287
00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:26,880
apparent. 
Now this would be the time of 

288
00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:31,040
161 to 72172. 
Mostly the rain of bail or the 

289
00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:33,160
blessed. 
Also the rain of Viserys the 

290
00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:36,280
First but or sorry, Viserys the 
Second, but his reign was only 

291
00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:39,840
about a year and there were not 
a whole lot of that is terribly 

292
00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:41,880
relevant to this episode was 
going to be covered there. 

293
00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:47,200
So even though the young dragon 
was a shining star and was the 

294
00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:50,200
you know, the the pride of House
Targaryen, it was for a very 

295
00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:53,480
short time and he was unmarried 
at the time of his death and 

296
00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:58,360
that caused a big domino effect.
Baylor the blessed takes the 

297
00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:01,800
throne and immediately starts 
making huge changes. 

298
00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:06,400
He sets aside his wife almost 
right away, takes Sepsin's vows,

299
00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:09,920
and he did his walk to Doran 
before this probably. 

300
00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:11,800
We're not sure of the timeline. 
What do you think, Steve? 

301
00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:13,760
Do you have a? 
Do you have a thoughts on which 

302
00:16:13,760 --> 00:16:15,840
happened first or does it 
matter? 

303
00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:19,680
I'm a little bit, to be honest, 
I'm up in the air about that. 

304
00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:24,720
After rereading the World of Ice
and Fire, the Velor section, I'm

305
00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:28,200
a little inclined to think that 
that part might have happened 

306
00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:32,480
after he got back because a lot 
of his sort of quote UN quote 

307
00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:39,920
madness was attributed to the 
the the surviving poison that he

308
00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:43,360
he picked up in Dorne. 
That's a good point because it 

309
00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:46,360
when he was bitten by the 
Vipers, it said that he took 

310
00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:48,960
almost half a year to recover 
and wasn't they couldn't even 

311
00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:51,040
get him back to King's Landing. 
They had, he had to recover in 

312
00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:53,920
Storm's End. 
And while we can't be sure that 

313
00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:58,040
the Vipers are what, you know, 
made him deranged, he's, you 

314
00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:00,000
know, it's not like we haven't 
seen other Targaryens be 

315
00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:01,880
deranged. 
It's a, it's a good theory. 

316
00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:03,200
I would certainly not dismiss 
that. 

317
00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:05,079
And it explains a lot of his 
behavior. 

318
00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:10,079
But despite Baylor's derangement
and his strange policies, 

319
00:17:10,599 --> 00:17:14,800
Arderon was a big fan of him. 
But more importantly for the 

320
00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:20,760
moment, Baylor becoming king 
meant almost certainly that our 

321
00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:24,640
Deron would become king. 
It went from Deron the first, 

322
00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:27,599
the young dragon, a young and 
vital likely to have children, 

323
00:17:27,599 --> 00:17:32,000
eventually, to him being dead 
and us having a Septon king 

324
00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:35,160
who's never going to have kids. 
And even if they he did have 

325
00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:37,520
kids, they would be illegitimate
because he took Septon's vows. 

326
00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:41,120
That meant that the throne was 
definitely going to pass to 

327
00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:45,080
well, beside the small chance 
that it was going to pass to 

328
00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:47,400
Dana the Defiant. 
Let's skip that for now. 

329
00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:52,280
It passed to Viserys the Second 
and then to Egon the 4th and 

330
00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:55,960
then to Deron our dare on. 
And from his point of view, this

331
00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:57,720
is probably how what it would 
look like. 

332
00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:01,360
He all he had to do was outlive 
this Septon king who fasted all 

333
00:18:01,360 --> 00:18:02,760
the time. 
He had to outlive his 

334
00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:06,480
grandfather, who's 30 years 
older, and he had to outlive his

335
00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:10,320
father who drank and ate and 
hoard his way into an early 

336
00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:12,600
grave. 
So I think this was very 

337
00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:16,600
predictable and I would have to 
say that others would have seen 

338
00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:20,160
this coming as well. 
I mean, what's you think of 

339
00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:23,600
ambitious people, What you think
of people who look ahead and you

340
00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:26,760
can see who's going to have the 
throne eventually and people who

341
00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:28,920
noticed that Darren would 
probably be king within a 

342
00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:33,080
10/15/20 years, I think they'd 
have started to befriend him. 

343
00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:34,320
What do you think about that, 
Steve? 

344
00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:37,640
Yeah, I think that makes sense. 
And we know that he gathered a 

345
00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:44,240
large group of supporters around
him, especially after his father

346
00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:48,000
becomes king and it becomes very
clear that his father is not 

347
00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:50,960
very good at administering the 
country. 

348
00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:54,480
You know, it says that basically
a lot of Lords who are unhappy 

349
00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:58,920
with Aegon the 4th kind of 
looked to Deron as a potential 

350
00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:04,360
kind of beneficial influence and
a future correction. 

351
00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:08,680
Right on. 
And of course, it's, it's a, the

352
00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:13,720
the main thing here is that 
Baylor actually married, was the

353
00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:17,320
one who made the decision to 
marry Daron to the Dornish. 

354
00:19:17,360 --> 00:19:19,080
That whole thing started with 
him. 

355
00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:22,840
And Daron, of course, would 
continue this pattern later in 

356
00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:27,120
life by making another important
marriage with with the Dornish. 

357
00:19:27,120 --> 00:19:31,600
But we'll get to that. 
So Princess Mariah would become 

358
00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:34,880
Daron's bride, but this wouldn't
happen for several years because

359
00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:36,720
this marriage was arranged when 
they were both very young. 

360
00:19:37,120 --> 00:19:41,880
But so again, we're looking at a
young boy, a young Prince who 

361
00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:46,760
has seen his whole his life is 
is in in a strange spot here. 

362
00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:53,000
He has grown up seeing 
everything around him devoted to

363
00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:57,040
attacking and conquering Dorn. 
And by the time he's 7, he's 

364
00:19:57,040 --> 00:19:59,040
still processing all this when 
it all flips. 

365
00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:02,560
And within a year or so now he's
being told he's going to marry 

366
00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:05,480
these people. 
So I don't know how a young kid 

367
00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:08,600
handles that, but. 
But he, he, he certainly did 

368
00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:11,640
somehow, one way or another. 
So this is the first Targill, 

369
00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:16,000
Targill, Targaryen Martel Union.
That's what we'll call it, 

370
00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:17,640
Targill. 
That's what a Targaryen Martel 

371
00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:20,120
union is from now on. 
So this would cause enormous 

372
00:20:20,120 --> 00:20:22,680
friction. 
And this is going to be a main 

373
00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:25,720
catalyst for all kinds of events
throughout this episode that 

374
00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:28,600
we'll be discussing. 
So it's also a, but it's also a 

375
00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:31,040
major shift in the type of power
that House Targaryen is 

376
00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:33,720
wielding. 
From the time of Aegon the 

377
00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:36,840
Conqueror to the end of the 
Dance, you have the Tar. 

378
00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:41,800
House Targaryen is this 
unbeatable family of dragonlords

379
00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:45,800
who anyone who thought of 
rebelling in the time of the 

380
00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:47,480
Dragons was kind of fooling 
themselves. 

381
00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:50,040
And the ones who did it, they 
didn't really have, the only 

382
00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:52,440
ones who had any sort of real 
success rebelling against the 

383
00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:54,680
dragonlords were other 
dragonlords. 

384
00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:59,320
So the only people who really 
had any traction were the crazy 

385
00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:01,440
religious zealots. 
And we all know how that works. 

386
00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:03,760
So here's another discussion 
point we want to get into. 

387
00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:08,480
Let's talk about some of these 
marriages, Aegons, Darrons, and 

388
00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:12,840
how there was some interesting 
kind of unusual parallels. 

389
00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:14,440
First of all, we have the 
racism. 

390
00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:17,480
People are racist towards the 
Dornish in the Iron, especially 

391
00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:19,320
the people in the Marcher area, 
certain areas. 

392
00:21:20,120 --> 00:21:23,800
But what's funny about that is 
Aegon the 4th's wife was also a 

393
00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:26,560
foreigner. 
So, Steve, tell me, why was that

394
00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:31,160
not a problem for Aegon, for 
Aegon, but it is a problem for 

395
00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:32,800
Darren? 
I think it has to do with the 

396
00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:37,360
different ways that the, the 
Westerosi see the Roynar, if you

397
00:21:37,360 --> 00:21:43,200
will, versus the Valyrians that 
the the Lycini, the Taroshi, the

398
00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:48,840
Mirish, etcetera are come out of
that Valyrian freehold and are 

399
00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:54,080
sort of seen therefore as kind 
of quasi Targaryens. 

400
00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:57,480
It's a little bit like the House
Valeria, which is they're 

401
00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:02,000
they're seen as similar enough. 
And also, you know, it doesn't 

402
00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:05,480
threaten the, the sort of 
internal power dynamics of 

403
00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:10,720
Westeros that, you know, if you 
know, Viserys the second or 

404
00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:16,480
Aegon the 4th, they marry 
outside of, you know, they marry

405
00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:20,000
outside of outside of Westeros. 
That doesn't change the internal

406
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:24,480
power dynamics. 
Darren marrying into Dorn means 

407
00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:28,280
that, you know, not only is the 
relationship between Dorn and 

408
00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:30,280
Westeros going to change and 
there's kind of the interesting 

409
00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:33,360
thing of at this time, they're 
at peace, but they're not part 

410
00:22:33,360 --> 00:22:38,360
of the same Kingdom. 
So, but at the same time, it now

411
00:22:38,360 --> 00:22:42,280
means that the king, the future 
kings of, of Westeros are going 

412
00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:45,440
to be part Dornish. 
So for for people who you know 

413
00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:49,600
fought in Dara on the first war,
I imagine for some of them it 

414
00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,600
might have looked like somehow 
the Markell's had conquered 

415
00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:57,440
Westeros instead of vice versa. 
Yeah, that's a good point. 

416
00:22:57,440 --> 00:22:59,000
Because they got and got what 
they wanted. 

417
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:02,200
The the Westerosi didn't get 
what they wanted and the Dornish

418
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:05,440
are the ones getting getting 
married to the throne. 

419
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:10,120
That's a pretty big deal. 
So, yeah, and, and that's a good

420
00:23:10,120 --> 00:23:13,560
point also about the Lysenia is 
that there is no enmity towards 

421
00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:16,120
and there is no built up enmity.
There's all kinds of people 

422
00:23:16,120 --> 00:23:18,920
throughout Westeros, even in 
modern times, who hate the 

423
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:23,240
Dornish because they're 
different, but also because of 

424
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:27,360
ancient grudges and thing, you 
know, all these old wars, 

425
00:23:27,360 --> 00:23:31,040
especially between like the Mart
Martels and the Tyrells and the 

426
00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:34,040
Martels and the and the marcher 
Lords, not just the Martels, but

427
00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:37,920
any the the Dornish Lords along 
the bone way and the Prince's 

428
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:41,920
Pass. 
But as we alluded to in Part 1, 

429
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:45,280
young, the young dragon and 
Baylor the blessed were brothers

430
00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:48,400
in extremes, not unlike Darren 
the second's father and uncle 

431
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:51,440
Wagon the unworthy name Prince 
Amon the dragon knight, very 

432
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:54,960
different from each other, but 
also very extreme in their own 

433
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,360
ways. 
These were the people that 

434
00:23:57,360 --> 00:23:58,680
Darren the second grew up 
around. 

435
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:02,920
These were his influences. 
These were his role models, and 

436
00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,760
I can only imagine what it's 
like to have such extreme 

437
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:10,280
personalities of such different 
types as you know around you 

438
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:11,360
constantly when you're growing 
up. 

439
00:24:11,360 --> 00:24:16,000
I have no idea how to relate to 
that, but it's very clear that 

440
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:19,160
the one who impressed Daron the 
most was Baylor. 

441
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:22,640
He took after his cousin in many
ways. 

442
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:24,040
He wanted peace. 
He was. 

443
00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:27,120
All throughout his reign, it's 
talked about how peaceable he 

444
00:24:27,120 --> 00:24:28,120
was. 
He always preferred the more 

445
00:24:28,120 --> 00:24:30,760
peaceable solution. 
That obviously reminds US of of 

446
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:32,960
Baylor. 
He was the piety of course, is 

447
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:35,920
a, is a good parallel, but he 
wasn't crazy. 

448
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,400
That's the important thing. 
That's not a parallel. 

449
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:42,680
Daron the second, No, no hint of
derangement whatsoever. 

450
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:46,800
He wasn't perfect, obviously, he
made plenty of mistakes, but he 

451
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:48,360
was smart. 
He's clearly a smart guy. 

452
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:50,520
And he wasn't a zealot like 
Baylor either. 

453
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:56,120
So by 170 Baylor had ruled for 
about 9 years and had done a lot

454
00:24:56,120 --> 00:25:01,200
of good things, some crazy 
things, but regardless he still 

455
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,360
had a big fan in Deron the Good.
Well, he wasn't there on the 

456
00:25:04,360 --> 00:25:07,880
good yet in our Deron. 
So when Deron had his first 

457
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:11,800
child he named him Baylor. 
Baylor would become Baylor Break

458
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:15,400
Spear, not at all like Baylor 
the Blessed, except that he was 

459
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:19,000
a good guy, but not a crazy 
Septon guy. 

460
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:24,640
And not long after that, though,
Damon Waters, soon to be Damon 

461
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:29,120
Blackfire, was born to Damon the
Defiant and Baylor the Blessed 

462
00:25:29,360 --> 00:25:33,200
fasted himself to death. 
So things changed really 

463
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:35,400
quickly. 
So here's another discussion 

464
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:38,200
point. 
Let's talk about Baylor and 

465
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:43,880
Deron and how Baylor would have 
mentored Deron directly or 

466
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:47,320
indirectly, and how and what 
pieces of his personality kind 

467
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:48,920
of lived on in Deron. 
What? 

468
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:52,160
What do you think, Steven I? 
Mean, I, I get the sense that 

469
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:59,840
Deron kind of looked up to 
Baylor, but in a kind of remote 

470
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:01,280
way. 
I don't get the sense that they 

471
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:04,760
were sort of that Baylor was 
teaching Darren on a day-to-day 

472
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:10,160
basis, that it's more that he 
sort of saw him as an ideal, as 

473
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:14,440
an idealist, as someone who sort
of example should be striven 

474
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:16,600
for. 
But I don't get the sense that 

475
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:20,720
he learned everything he knew 
from from Baylor. 

476
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:24,880
If anything, I'd actually say 
it's probably more likely that 

477
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:28,120
he had a, a sort of that kind of
mentor mentee relationship with 

478
00:26:28,120 --> 00:26:31,720
Viserys the second with his 
grandfather because he was his 

479
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:36,400
grandfather, who is kind of has 
that same quality of an 

480
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:39,960
administrator of someone who's 
running the day-to-day and 

481
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,600
making sure that, you know, the 
government is running 

482
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,440
efficiently. 
The you know, the books are 

483
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:47,840
being balanced. 
That makes sense. 

484
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,160
That makes a lot of sense. 
You know, and that sort of 

485
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:54,200
Viserys the Second strikes me as
someone who's always trying to 

486
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:57,520
take that middle path, that sort
of the road of moderation. 

487
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,080
And I see that as a strong 
influence on on Deron. 

488
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:06,480
I would also guess that Deron 
saw so much turmoil in his early

489
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,680
years because of all these 
conflicts and it may have left 

490
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:13,280
an impression on him showing, 
Hey, look, Baylor came in and 

491
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:16,640
did things the peaceful way and 
that worked better. 

492
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:19,640
He may have just been kind of 
looked at the results and said, 

493
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:21,280
hey, look, they tried to conquer
Dorn. 

494
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:22,520
They tried to they did it with 
Dragons. 

495
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:24,800
They failed all these times. 
And then the one guy comes in 

496
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:26,920
and does it with peace and it 
and it looks to be working. 

497
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:32,200
Hey, that that sometimes you 
know that the influence is a 

498
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:34,040
bottom line sort of thing. 
He just looked at what was 

499
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:36,480
working even though it hadn't 
fully worked by that point. 

500
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:40,280
So this, but this would set up, 
like you said, the relationship 

501
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:42,080
between Darren Arderon and 
Viserys. 

502
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:43,640
The second. 
I agree with you that it was 

503
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,920
probably a good relationship. 
One thing that puzzles me a 

504
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:52,080
little bit is that we, we often 
see the continuation of certain 

505
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:54,040
names. 
We often see, especially in 

506
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:57,520
these noble houses, They re 
they'll use the recycle names 

507
00:27:57,920 --> 00:27:59,800
that have been used a lot. 
And you would think that if 

508
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:01,800
Darren had a great relationship 
with Viserys, you would have 

509
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:05,840
think maybe he would have named 
one of his kids Viserys, but he 

510
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:08,560
didn't that that doesn't mean a 
whole lot. 

511
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:10,640
But I do think it's interesting 
to take a look at these things. 

512
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:14,560
But we'll be talking a bit more 
about some of their some of the 

513
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:16,480
names and what we can get out of
these things. 

514
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,760
It is possible, however, that 
you remember that nares, his 

515
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:23,520
mother had multiple stillbirths.
For all we know, one of the 

516
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:26,720
kids, one of those stillborn 
babies could have been Visaris. 

517
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:31,720
My, my pet theory is that the 
the first Daenerys, the Daenerys

518
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:36,640
who was also, you know, the, the
daughter of of Egon, she was 

519
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:40,080
born with a twin, a male twin. 
How about that twin being named 

520
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:41,600
the Saris? 
Then we have the Saris and 

521
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:45,640
Daenerys the First. 
That's that's possible. 

522
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:50,480
It it might also be the case 
that I mean, he might have 

523
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,720
admired Viserys in terms of his 
abilities, but the sort of the 

524
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:56,680
scandal that grew up around 
Viserys the second, the 

525
00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:01,320
suggestion that he poisons his 
own nephew, that that sort of 

526
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,960
might have left too big a sort 
of, you know, in the same way 

527
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,520
that you, if you're a sane 
person, don't name your kid 

528
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:11,040
Magor that it might have been 
seen at the time not politically

529
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:14,040
wise to name your kid Viserys. 
Yeah, that's a good point. 

530
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,680
That's a very good point. 
Speaking of suspected murders, 

531
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,840
we touched on the possibility 
that Aegon may have had 

532
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:26,720
something to do with murdering 
either Baylor or Viserys. 

533
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:31,880
And if Deron suspected any of 
that, well, especially if he 

534
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:35,320
suspected his father or any of 
his father's cronies of having 

535
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:39,160
something to do with murdering 
his favorite Baylor, that would 

536
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:41,600
certainly put a big dent in 
their relationship. 

537
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:44,840
Especially because, you know, 
there's no way for him to have 

538
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:47,400
proved it or to have gotten any 
sort of justice for it. 

539
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,760
But again, even if that's not 
the case, there's just so many 

540
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:54,960
things for Daron and Egon to 
disagree over and to get upset 

541
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:56,400
about. 
Let's just run through a couple 

542
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:58,920
of them real quick. 
The danger to his mother Naris, 

543
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:03,240
which we already talked about 
his father hating Dorn. 

544
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:06,440
This is this is Daron's wife's 
country. 

545
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:11,319
His own father hates his 
daughter in What? 

546
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:16,120
Other ones, OK, well, there's 
the fact that his father had an 

547
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:17,880
affair with Dana the Defiant. 
That's. 

548
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:20,920
Right. 
You know, is going to is going 

549
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:24,760
to claim Damon Blackfire as his 
own son, and that's kind of, you

550
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:28,280
know, it it it's sort of the 
reverse of you're not my real 

551
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:29,720
dad. 
It's like, you know, this is my 

552
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:31,480
favorite son, you know, right 
here. 

553
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:33,800
There's all of the other 
bastards. 

554
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,800
And, you know, one of the things
that I wrote about in in the 

555
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:40,000
black and red essays is that 
these bastards are not just a 

556
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:41,600
sort of a personal 
embarrassment. 

557
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:45,720
They're also a political threat.
There's a real suggestion that 

558
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:49,760
some of these bastards, you 
know, Damon being the the most 

559
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:53,080
prominent, might have a claim to
the throne and that's a threat 

560
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:56,200
to, to dare on the 2nd. 
And then there's just sort of, 

561
00:30:56,320 --> 00:31:00,400
you know, everything else, you 
know, corrupt, you know, massive

562
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:05,240
political corruption, greed, 
massive weight gain, alcoholism,

563
00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:09,200
general disregard for the law, 
you know, ego. 

564
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:11,520
The 4th was just not a nice guy 
to be around. 

565
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:14,640
He is just not. 
He's an embarrassing father. 

566
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:17,520
Even though he was the king, 
he's an extremely embarrassing 

567
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:21,240
father. 
OK, that is that is Part 2. 

568
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,080
We're going to move on to the 
era where Aegon the 4th was 

569
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:28,880
actually king when things got 
worse, when Aegon's ability to 

570
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:34,680
his corruption and violence and 
cruelty and apathy for other 

571
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,440
people in the realm in general 
were a much bigger problem 

572
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:39,360
because he was sitting in the 
driver's seat. 

573
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,360
But first, Steven, you just 
mentioned your essay series, The

574
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:44,560
Blacks and the Reds, which we 
didn't talk about too much when 

575
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:46,160
we introduced you. 
Why don't you say a few things 

576
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:47,760
about those real quick? 
Tell people where? 

577
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:53,240
To find So if you go to Tower of
the Hand, I've done a series of 

578
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:56,120
four essays on the Blackfyre 
rebellions called The Blacks and

579
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:58,680
the Reds. 
Part 1 looks at what are the 

580
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:02,640
origins of the rebellion. 
Part 2 looks at the first 

581
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:06,800
rebellion, Part 3 looks at the 
2nd, 3rd and 4th rebellions, and

582
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:10,440
then Part 4 looks at the Golden 
Company and the War of Ninepenny

583
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:12,640
Kings. 
And sort of what can we expect 

584
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:15,440
from the Blackfyre causes? 
And I personally enjoyed reading

585
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:19,600
them very much and it helped me 
get some of my own ideas 

586
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:22,040
straight. 
Some of the ideas that you will 

587
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:25,480
hear today, you'll see in 
Steve's writings as well. 

588
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:27,960
And if you've already read them,
you'll be hearing some of them 

589
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:29,440
again. 
It's, it's some of these things.

590
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:32,960
There's just so many angles. 
I'm, I'm impressed with as as 

591
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,040
many people as covered some of 
these topics. 

592
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:38,840
There's still new insights 
possible and, and new things 

593
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:41,080
that can be said about them. 
It's really amazing how how deep

594
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:44,400
the material goes. 
But before we start Part 3 real 

595
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:49,120
quick, one way that we have been
giving back to people that have 

596
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:52,960
supported the show when we do. 
When we started our Patreon 

597
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:57,520
campaign, we started giving 
episodes out early, meaning that

598
00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:01,400
when we record an episode, it's 
going to be mailed out or secret

599
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:03,560
links are given out to people a 
few days in advance. 

600
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:06,320
We've started giving the 
episodes out early also to 

601
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:09,520
people who do the traditional 
straightforward PayPal 

602
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:10,400
donations. 
So if you go to 

603
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:14,480
historyofwesteros.com and click 
on the donate button and you 

604
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:18,520
know, support the show any way 
you can, we will also e-mail you

605
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:20,400
the next couple of episodes a 
little bit early. 

606
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:22,440
That doesn't include TV show 
episodes because those are going

607
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:25,880
to come out as soon as we make 
them anyway, onward Part 3. 

608
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:30,560
Dragon Prince on thin ice. 
This is the air, the era of 172 

609
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:33,920
to 184, basically the entire 
reign of egg on the 4th. 

610
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:36,800
How did Darren the second not 
yet Darren the second? 

611
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:40,280
How did he manage living under 
his horrible father who he 

612
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:42,440
disagreed with on so much? 
Quote. 

613
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:46,120
In the last years of his reign, 
Prince Daron proved the chief 

614
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:49,320
obstacle to Aegon's misrule. 
No surprise there, right? 

615
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:51,840
We already talked about how many
things they disagreed on. 

616
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:54,920
Just imagine how worse things 
would have been if Daron wasn't 

617
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:56,880
there kind of check his father 
and keep him back. 

618
00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:03,240
So in a very short time, we had 
Baylor die and a whole bunch of 

619
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:04,640
things happened as a result of 
his death. 

620
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,600
And then Viserys was only on the
throne for a year and then 

621
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:10,800
quickly egg on the 4th ascends 
and things all start to go 

622
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:14,960
crappy pretty much right away. 
One thing that really stands out

623
00:34:15,159 --> 00:34:18,040
to me here and something that 
that we, Steve and I, talked a 

624
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:20,360
lot about in in preparing for 
this episode of some of the 

625
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:23,639
similarities between the 
situation with Aegon and and 

626
00:34:23,639 --> 00:34:26,960
Deron as compared to some other 
parallels that we're a bit more 

627
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:29,679
familiar with, say, Aries and 
Rhaegar. 

628
00:34:29,679 --> 00:34:31,199
There's a bunch of parallels 
here. 

629
00:34:31,199 --> 00:34:32,280
Steven, start us off. 
Yeah. 

630
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:36,639
So I mean, one thing that we can
definitely see is that both 

631
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:40,159
Aegon the 4th and Eris the 
second were sort of known to be 

632
00:34:40,159 --> 00:34:44,040
initially kind of charming 
womanizers who kind of get 

633
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:49,400
steadily crazy as time goes on. 
They're both sort of become 

634
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:53,520
fascinated with wildfire. 
Aegon the 4th is said to be 

635
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:56,760
cruel and Heiress the Second 
certainly could be cruel. 

636
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:01,640
You know, I mean, you can see 
examples of Aegon's cruelty and 

637
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:07,320
things like, you know, what 
happened to Sir Terence Toyn and

638
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:09,320
his mistress. 
And, you know, he just sort of 

639
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:11,920
generally like to use and then 
dispose of people. 

640
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:14,240
I wouldn't be surprised if he 
burned a few people too. 

641
00:35:14,240 --> 00:35:16,280
We don't hear that. 
But I wouldn't be surprised if 

642
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,240
if if we did hear about that 
later, it would be like, oh, 

643
00:35:19,240 --> 00:35:22,120
well, shocking. 
I would be like, shrug, what 

644
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:23,600
else? 
That's just right in line with 

645
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:25,640
the kind of things he did. 
And of course, there's also the 

646
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:28,040
womanizing. 
It was their their brand of 

647
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:31,000
womanizing was different. 
Aegon the force kind of kept 

648
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:34,240
mistresses for a while, whereas 
Aries kind of got tired of them 

649
00:35:34,240 --> 00:35:36,160
within a matter of weeks 
sometimes or days. 

650
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:38,080
But but they were both 
womanizers. 

651
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:41,960
They both also had a lot of 
stillborn children now with 

652
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:46,480
Aries that seem to just really 
fuel his derangement, his 

653
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:48,960
growing insanity. 
And anyone who's read The World 

654
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:51,040
of Ice and Fire, you see all 
these crazy things he did in 

655
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:54,040
response to thinking it to the 
still burst and accusing his wet

656
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:57,120
nurses of poisoning the babies 
and all these just really awful 

657
00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:59,320
things. 
We don't know how Aegon the 4th 

658
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:03,080
handled the stillbirths of his 
of his sister wife Nerys. 

659
00:36:03,240 --> 00:36:04,720
I mean, I doubt it made him 
happy. 

660
00:36:04,720 --> 00:36:08,080
I don't know if it made him 
really upset either, but he did 

661
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:09,560
seem to like having children. 
What? 

662
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:11,400
What do you think Stephen? 
Did he have any humanity? 

663
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:15,040
I think he was a little bit 
more, I mean, I don't know about

664
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:16,760
humanity. 
I think Aegon was a little bit 

665
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:20,720
more secure in his, I don't 
know, masculinity or or 

666
00:36:20,720 --> 00:36:24,600
fertility because he had so many
bastards that Eris doesn't seem 

667
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:28,120
to have had any bastards. 
Very good point, which is kind 

668
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:31,400
of interesting given that he he 
supposedly slept around a lot. 

669
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:36,760
So I think Akon the 4th sort of 
felt well, you know, OK, you 

670
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:41,320
know, this woman is clearly not 
it is less about him than it was

671
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:43,760
about his wife because he could 
look to all these other women 

672
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:47,200
and say, well, they've given me 
so many children and clearly 

673
00:36:47,240 --> 00:36:51,120
it's not my problem. 
But it's also the case that, you

674
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:56,600
know, that accusation of 
infidelity is a political tool 

675
00:36:56,600 --> 00:37:00,960
as well as a, a sort of an 
instrument of sort of personal, 

676
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:04,000
you know, frustration or, or, or
dislike. 

677
00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:08,760
And that you know, it, a lot of 
it has to do with kind of their 

678
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,000
tricky relation or tricky is a, 
is a really light way to put it.

679
00:37:12,240 --> 00:37:15,000
But their their their bad 
relationships with their with 

680
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:18,120
their Crown Princess that they 
sort of an accusation of 

681
00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:22,320
infidelity is a way to cast 
doubt on the legitimacy and 

682
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,000
authority of their oldest sons. 
Absolutely. 

683
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:28,680
And that parallel was something 
we weren't really aware of until

684
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:32,520
the World of Ice and Fire. 
As far as Aries and Rhaegar, we 

685
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:37,320
learned that Aries threatened to
put Vissaris ahead of Rhaegar in

686
00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:39,640
the line of succession, which he
technically has the right to do.

687
00:37:40,240 --> 00:37:43,720
That's this is a good point to 
remind people of how that works.

688
00:37:43,720 --> 00:37:46,880
It's a commonly held 
misconception that the throne 

689
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:48,720
just always passes to the eldest
son. 

690
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:51,560
That's tradition, and that's 
usually how it's handled. 

691
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:53,640
And part of the reason it's 
usually handled that way is 

692
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:56,960
because it's so traditional that
if you don't do that, it often 

693
00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:00,600
results in civil war. 
But technically speaking, the 

694
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:03,760
law states that the king can 
name who he wants as his heir. 

695
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:09,520
So both Aries and Aegon the 4th 
had legal right to do what they 

696
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:11,600
were doing. 
So the threat was not empty. 

697
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:16,240
When Deron the Second hears that
he might get, you know, pushed 

698
00:38:16,240 --> 00:38:20,760
aside for one of Aegon the 4th's
bastards, he has to take that 

699
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:23,200
seriously. 
So there, you know, there's 

700
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:26,520
other parallels here. 
There's other eras in the 

701
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:28,440
Targaryen line where there's 
some similarities. 

702
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:30,400
You don't have to get too deep 
into them, but consider just the

703
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:33,200
similarities also between the 
Blacks and the Greens, blacks 

704
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:34,360
and the Reds, blacks and the 
greens. 

705
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:38,240
That fits nicely, doesn't it? 
Also a nice and Magor a nice and

706
00:38:38,240 --> 00:38:43,040
Magor had, you know, Magor was 
the kind of powerful warrior 

707
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:47,520
like figure and a nice was kind 
of the weak, like not not 

708
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:49,600
knowing what he's doing kind of 
situation. 

709
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:52,760
Darren knew what he was doing, 
but he had the whole kind of 

710
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:56,800
weakling image and surrounded 
himself with, you know, courtly 

711
00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:00,760
types rather than manly types. 
And that was a problem for 

712
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:04,040
anyone who perceived Daron is 
weak, even though he was 

713
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:07,520
actually pretty smart. 
But the first major controversy 

714
00:39:07,720 --> 00:39:13,720
in terms of Aegon threatening to
set aside Daron for one of his 

715
00:39:13,720 --> 00:39:16,240
bastards was not with Damon 
Blackfyre. 

716
00:39:16,240 --> 00:39:19,880
Remember, Damon Blackfyre wasn't
revealed to be Damon Blackfyre 

717
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:24,520
until the year 182 and we're 
still in the early one 70s here.

718
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:27,200
Damien Blackfyre is only about 
two to three years old and he 

719
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:28,680
and Aegon hasn't claimed him 
yet. 

720
00:39:29,240 --> 00:39:32,480
So what we had the first 
controversy was the Bracken 

721
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:34,120
controversy. 
Now, Stephen, tell us a bit 

722
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:35,080
about this. 
Sure. 

723
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:41,480
So at this point, Barbara 
Bracken is Aegon the Force 

724
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:45,440
mistress, and her father has 
become Lord Hand through this. 

725
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:50,080
This is sort of a kind of a good
parallel back to the sort of the

726
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:53,160
history of Henry the Eighth and 
The Tudors in which kind of 

727
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:57,160
being a royal mistress is a good
way for an ambitious family to 

728
00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:01,360
try to get a leg up. 
And especially, you know, when 

729
00:40:02,720 --> 00:40:08,600
Barbara, you know, looks to be 
giving Egon the 4th a son that 

730
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:12,680
her father and nearest looks 
like she might be dying in a 

731
00:40:12,720 --> 00:40:17,000
child in another childbirth that
they the Brackens start to get. 

732
00:40:17,720 --> 00:40:21,120
Ideas above their station that 
they could potentially make 

733
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:26,440
Barbara Bracken the new queen 
and thus her son, you know, sort

734
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:30,720
of retroactively becomes a true 
born Targaryen. 

735
00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:35,200
Right on here is a quote that 
gives a good summarize 

736
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:36,840
summarization of how it all 
went. 

737
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:41,200
Basically, once Narius recovered
this whole plot that the 

738
00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:45,960
Brackens had to try and supplant
Naris half of the of the 

739
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:50,400
Targaryen line there was kind of
blew up in their faces Quote 

740
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:53,800
After the Queen's recovery, the 
scandal proved Barba's undoing 

741
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:57,560
as young Prince Daron and his 
uncle the Dragon Knight forced 

742
00:40:57,560 --> 00:40:59,600
Aegon to send her and the 
bastard away. 

743
00:40:59,720 --> 00:41:03,120
The boy raised at Stonehedge by 
the Brackens was called Agor 

744
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:05,760
Rivers, but in time became known
as Bittersteel. 

745
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:08,440
This would be one of the many 
things Bittersteel would have to

746
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:10,440
be bitter about. 
The the the list is going to be 

747
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:12,680
really huge by the time we get 
to his episode, which will be 

748
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:13,520
part four. 
Yeah. 

749
00:41:14,240 --> 00:41:20,480
But notice again that this is an
example of Deron and Nares and 

750
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:23,640
Amon the Dragon Knight all kind 
of being united, sort of a 

751
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:26,680
faction within within the court 
there. 

752
00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:29,120
And this is a good example of 
them kind of working together on

753
00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:32,680
something that was equally 
embarrassing and problematic for

754
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:35,040
all of them, right? 
And and you can see how how 

755
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:38,520
bitter Steel would resent all of
this and that, you know, he gets

756
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:41,480
the short end of the stick in 
part because, you know, he must 

757
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:43,720
have looked around to himself. 
And certainly he probably was 

758
00:41:43,720 --> 00:41:46,720
told this by his mother or his 
grandfather, that you could have

759
00:41:46,720 --> 00:41:49,800
been the Crown Prince if it 
hadn't been for day or all. 

760
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:54,600
And then he can look to the 
Blackwoods and and Bloodraven 

761
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:58,120
and say, hang on, why? 
Why did I get exiled and he 

762
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:01,320
didn't? 
You know why this unfair, unjust

763
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:04,040
treatment? 
So a lot for better Seal to 

764
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:08,440
reflect back on as he's slowly 
pushed outside of the inner 

765
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:10,440
circle and realizes what could 
have been. 

766
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:14,720
So when I I mentioned that Agon 
was threatening to name one of 

767
00:42:14,720 --> 00:42:20,080
his bastards ahead of Deron, 
Bittersteel was the first choice

768
00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:22,600
because there were no other 
choices. 

769
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:25,080
Remember, Damon Waters was not 
yet Damon Blackfire. 

770
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:26,880
No one knew who who his father 
was. 

771
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:30,000
So when Damon or so when rather 
when Agon the force threatening 

772
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:35,120
to name one of his children 
ahead of Deron, The only cat or 

773
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:38,040
the only candidate is Agor. 
So that will really set the 

774
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:39,440
stage later. 
So. 

775
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:44,280
But these threats continued as 
Aegon's reign went on. 

776
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:47,480
It got worse after. 
Here's a quote. 

777
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:50,920
After the death of his siblings,
the king began to make barely 

778
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:54,600
veiled references to his son's 
alleged illegitimacy, something 

779
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:57,160
he dared only because the dragon
knight was dead. 

780
00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:00,600
His courtiers and hangers on 
aped the king, and this calumny 

781
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:03,240
spread. 
As we'll see this this calumny 

782
00:43:03,240 --> 00:43:07,120
would continue well into 
Darren's reign, which won't 

783
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:10,600
start for another 8 to 10 years.
We're not exactly sure when this

784
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:13,000
sorry. 
Another 5 to 8 years, and then 

785
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:15,200
even beyond that all the way up 
to the Black Fire rebellions. 

786
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:18,960
What's interesting on top of 
this though, is how this grew. 

787
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:22,480
Basically, egg on the fourth was
pushing these rumors, but he he 

788
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:25,680
they started more minor, but he 
couldn't go too far because, as 

789
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:29,240
we said, Aegon, or rather aiming
the dragon knight and his own 

790
00:43:29,240 --> 00:43:32,840
wife were around to stop him. 
But as these people died off, 

791
00:43:33,240 --> 00:43:37,120
Aegon was more free to to name 
these people and to give give 

792
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:40,200
these accusations and to do 
these crappy things to his 

793
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:44,320
family. 
So but ultimately he never 

794
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:46,520
actually did anything. 
He never he does were just 

795
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:49,000
threats. 
It it never went beyond that, 

796
00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:51,200
but the threat still caused a 
lot of problems. 

797
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:55,440
But why? 
Why did Aegon never actually go 

798
00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:57,000
through with it? 
Let's talk about that, Steven. 

799
00:43:57,040 --> 00:43:58,760
Sure. 
I mean, well, part of what's 

800
00:43:58,760 --> 00:44:02,720
going on here behind the scenes 
is that there is a conflict over

801
00:44:02,720 --> 00:44:07,200
what to do with Dorn, that Aegon
the 4th wants to go to war with 

802
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:09,200
Dorn. 
Darren the Second is very much 

803
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:12,480
against it. 
And, you know, part of this has 

804
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:16,880
to do with, you know, Aegon the 
4th is a warrior, or at least 

805
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:18,560
used to be a warrior before he 
got back. 

806
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:22,480
Daron the Second never was. 
But a lot of this has to do with

807
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:26,920
dynastic issues that Daron is 
going to back his wife's family.

808
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:29,160
You know, House Martel is behind
Daron. 

809
00:44:29,720 --> 00:44:32,960
And that means that, you know, 
even though the king wants war 

810
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:36,160
with Dorn, you know, he's he's 
not ready for it. 

811
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:38,480
I mean, especially after his 
wooden dragon. 

812
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:40,520
Crash and burn he did, very. 
Bad. 

813
00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:46,880
So, you know any, so he knows 
that getting rid of of Deron 

814
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:50,440
means war with the Martels. 
And especially given that, you 

815
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:54,280
know, Deron has other supporters
who looked at him as this kind 

816
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:58,840
of bastion of good government, 
you know that it would mean a 

817
00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:02,160
civil war. 
And that, you know, however 

818
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:06,400
selfish, and, you know, however 
much Aegon might actually 

819
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:10,600
believe these rumors, you know, 
he doesn't feel that he can pull

820
00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:13,440
the trigger. 
Part of it, I would guess, like 

821
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:17,120
you said, it's he's afraid of 
these, of their, of his son's 

822
00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:19,680
allies and what it might mean. 
Another part of me just thinks 

823
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:23,640
that he got his butt kicked the 
first time, he's afraid of what 

824
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:25,000
might happen the second time 
around. 

825
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:28,440
And he's lazy. 
He doesn't want to fight a war. 

826
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:32,440
A war might take away from his 
pleasures. 

827
00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:35,320
He might not get to drink the 
greatest wines anymore. 

828
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:38,400
Like would it? 
What would it do to his getting 

829
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:41,480
Dornish wine if they were at war
with Dorn? 

830
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:43,720
Can he? 
Is he going to be able to sleep 

831
00:45:43,720 --> 00:45:45,600
around as much if he has to do 
war councils? 

832
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:47,240
I don't know. 
It's funny to think about 

833
00:45:47,240 --> 00:45:49,800
someone's laziness being the 
thing that's like, I'm going to 

834
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:54,720
start a war, I'm too lazy. 
It's just kind of AI get a kick 

835
00:45:54,720 --> 00:45:58,160
out of thinking about that. 
What are some other possible 

836
00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:02,920
allies for Darren the second 
because it wasn't just the ones 

837
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:04,960
that wasn't just his natural 
family eyes. 

838
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:07,120
It wasn't just the Martells and 
perhaps some other Dornish 

839
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:09,520
houses. 
We have this quote that shed 

840
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:14,120
some light on it. 
While some rather while some 

841
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:16,760
took advantage of the king 
because of his corruptible 

842
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:20,280
nature quote, others who 
condemned the King's behavior 

843
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:22,720
began to flock to Prince Darren.
So it was also just a matter of 

844
00:46:22,720 --> 00:46:24,680
honor. 
And not everyone is just as 

845
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:26,040
ambitious and out for 
themselves. 

846
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:29,120
A lot of people are, maybe even 
a huge percentage, but they're 

847
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:30,800
still good people. 
They're still people at least 

848
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:35,560
openly, who are not going to 
just be lickspittles and follow 

849
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:37,320
this awful king and and back 
him. 

850
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:40,760
So Darren got a lot of allies 
just because his father was so 

851
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:43,960
awful and some of these allies 
were powerful, like his own 

852
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:46,400
mother and Prince Amon, the 
Dragon Knight. 

853
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:49,360
Very important people. 
Who are some other ones that you

854
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:50,880
think of, Stephen? 
I mean, I think the best 

855
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:54,000
candidate is, is House Aaron of 
the veil. 

856
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:57,000
They're a great house, which 
makes them very powerful. 

857
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:02,400
They're also traditionalists. 
You know, they're, they sort of,

858
00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:05,160
you know, their motto is as high
as honor. 

859
00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:09,240
You know, they take the sort of 
the, the traditions of honor 

860
00:47:09,240 --> 00:47:12,920
and, you know, gentility very 
seriously. 

861
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:17,040
So they would kind of look down 
on Aegon the 4th, who is very 

862
00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:20,320
dishonorable in his behavior. 
And it's also the fact that they

863
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:22,560
are tied into the line of 
succession as well. 

864
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:29,480
Every Targaryen is part errand. 
So they have this sort of built 

865
00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:34,000
in, just built in allegiance to 
the family. 

866
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:37,160
And they don't want to see the 
traditions of succession 

867
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:41,480
uprooted so that Aegon the 4th 
can make some bracken, you know,

868
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:44,160
his new queen. 
So I think that would be sort of

869
00:47:44,240 --> 00:47:46,800
your best bet. 
You know, like allied number 

870
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:48,640
one. 
That probably was on Darren's 

871
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:50,320
side. 
That makes sense. 

872
00:47:50,720 --> 00:47:54,520
And there would have been of 
course, a a smattering of crown 

873
00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:56,800
lands, houses and some other 
Dornish houses. 

874
00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:59,960
There'd be people on both sides.
We can't know for sure. 

875
00:47:59,960 --> 00:48:02,400
We don't know who a lot of these
Lords were and and who knows 

876
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:04,240
what the ambitions of people at 
this time were. 

877
00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:07,080
But we can certainly cover it 
with broad strokes. 

878
00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:10,280
We can certainly detail what the
main point the political points 

879
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:13,080
were, what types of things 
people would have been aiming 

880
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:15,560
for and what might have pushed 
them to one side or the other. 

881
00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:20,080
Just as there were people who 
Aegon pushed away by being who 

882
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:24,320
he was and how Deron acquired 
allies because of who he was and

883
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:28,560
his family ties that led to 
another domino falling, there 

884
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:32,240
were plenty of houses strongly 
disposed towards disliking Deron

885
00:48:32,240 --> 00:48:35,280
for who he was. 
Now people disliked Aegon 

886
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:38,280
because he was corruptible and 
terrible, but Deron? 

887
00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:40,400
There were people who didn't 
like him either. 

888
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:43,480
This was a problem for him as 
the heir to the throne and Aegon

889
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:47,720
the 4th, not a total idiot, 
capitalized on this as well 

890
00:48:47,720 --> 00:48:51,560
Quote using the hatred for the 
Dornish men that still burned in

891
00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:54,840
the Marches, the Stormlands and 
the Reach to suborn some of 

892
00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:57,640
Darren's allies and use them 
against his most powerful 

893
00:48:57,640 --> 00:48:59,680
supporters. 
So we have Lords and Knights 

894
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:03,360
already taking sides and now 
things start to get divided even

895
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:06,640
more can really see that even 
though we're still quite a ways 

896
00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:10,040
away from the Blackfire 
rebellion breaking out, people 

897
00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:12,280
are already taking sides. 
The battle lines are already 

898
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:14,280
being drawn so that I think 
that's really interesting and 

899
00:49:14,280 --> 00:49:16,040
and it's. 
Yeah, it's, it's not, it's not 

900
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:19,360
blacks and Reds yet, but it's, 
it's the King's party versus the

901
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:20,920
Prince's party. 
Yes. 

902
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:23,080
And you're either in one camper 
or in the other. 

903
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:27,600
And eventually the the king, 
people in the King's party, a 

904
00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:30,360
lot of them are going to turn 
into to the blacks, the future 

905
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:32,120
blacks. 
And a lot of the ones who are 

906
00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:34,640
with Darren are going to be the 
ones that stay loyal to the 

907
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:36,560
throne. 
And they'll become the Reds. 

908
00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:39,960
They'll be some crossover as 
time passes, people will always 

909
00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:43,240
find reason to switch. 
And certainly some Lords will 

910
00:49:43,240 --> 00:49:45,600
die and their heirs will have 
different attitudes than their 

911
00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:48,840
fathers. 
And of course, late in Egg on 

912
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:52,120
the Forest rain Eamon if the 
dragon knight dies and Nares 

913
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:55,680
dies a year later, that would 
have perhaps weakened Deron's 

914
00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:57,680
position at court. 
Some of his most important 

915
00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:01,120
allies were were dead. 
Neither of them were had died of

916
00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:03,360
old age. 
Of course, Nares died of just 

917
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:06,200
being weak and and sickly and 
having all these pregnancies. 

918
00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:10,280
And Eamon of course died 
tragically, saving his unworthy 

919
00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:15,200
brother from the twins. 
So one of the biggest questions 

920
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:19,000
of the Blackfyre Abelians in 
general is what are the actual 

921
00:50:19,240 --> 00:50:20,880
like? 
We kind of have been taking it a

922
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:25,720
bit for granted, the possibility
that Aries Aries that Aegon was 

923
00:50:25,720 --> 00:50:28,080
lying. 
We just sort of assumed that 

924
00:50:28,080 --> 00:50:30,960
Aegon was making it all up. 
Steve, is there any chance that 

925
00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:33,440
Aemon the Dragon Knight was 
actually Darren's? 

926
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:35,920
Father Well, here's the way I 
look at it. 

927
00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:38,520
I mean, I know a lot of people 
don't believe this, but the way 

928
00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:44,160
I see it is it's it's pretty 
clear that Naris and Amon loved 

929
00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:47,400
each other in a way that went 
beyond the usual brother 

930
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:50,800
sisterhood. 
And while the argument is often 

931
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:54,840
used that a perfect knight like 
Eamon the dragon knight would 

932
00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:57,960
never violate his vows. 
One of the things that if you 

933
00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:02,680
look to sort of real world 
chivalric romance and you know, 

934
00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:06,520
Arthurian myth is that often 
perfect Knights do have this 

935
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:09,960
kind of fatal weakness of love. 
That, you know, Lancelot was 

936
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:13,680
supposedly the best knight in 
the Round Table and he still 

937
00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:17,760
betrays King Arthur with 
Guanavir and kind of brings the 

938
00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:20,920
fall of Camelot so. 
Very good point. 

939
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:24,680
You know, I, I don't, I don't 
think it's 100% either way. 

940
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:27,080
And I don't think, I think 
that's kind of a problem is that

941
00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:29,520
there was doubt but no way to 
tell. 

942
00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:33,720
And that part of the reason why 
Egon the 4th never pulled the 

943
00:51:33,720 --> 00:51:36,560
trigger on this is that he was 
never quite sure. 

944
00:51:38,440 --> 00:51:41,560
And, you know, ultimately, I 
mean, this is a world without 

945
00:51:41,560 --> 00:51:44,960
DNA tests and everyone's 
brothers and sisters anyway, So 

946
00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:47,120
it would be incredibly difficult
to tell even that. 

947
00:51:47,520 --> 00:51:52,480
So you know, without a witness, 
how do you prove that you know 

948
00:51:52,560 --> 00:51:57,320
Naris and Amon did or did not 
sire dare? 

949
00:51:57,760 --> 00:52:00,120
Yeah, it's it's a good. 
There's a couple 2 points I want

950
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:02,480
to add to that. 
Just because Aegon the Unworthy 

951
00:52:02,480 --> 00:52:05,560
was such an asshole who slept 
around and had a lot of 

952
00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:09,520
bathrooms, that doesn't mean 
that thing. 

953
00:52:09,520 --> 00:52:13,480
We're not told the truth of Amon
the Dragon Knight a little 

954
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:15,040
differently than is than is 
accurate. 

955
00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:18,440
It's like you said, the Lancelot
example is perfect, but it goes 

956
00:52:18,440 --> 00:52:22,440
beyond that here as well. 
Because the Targaryens wrote 

957
00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:23,800
history. 
History is written by the 

958
00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:26,240
winners. 
They're not going to say bad 

959
00:52:26,240 --> 00:52:29,080
things about the great Prince 
Amon the Dragon Knight. 

960
00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:33,600
If if he had dirt, you know, if 
he had skeletons in his closet, 

961
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:36,360
if there were things he did that
were covered up, the Targaryens 

962
00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:39,880
would probably keep it that way.
They don't other than Aegon 

963
00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:45,080
himself, the brother who wanted 
to shame Amon, there's who would

964
00:52:45,240 --> 00:52:48,640
want to throw shade on the 
memory of this great man when 

965
00:52:48,640 --> 00:52:51,600
they're all related to him. 
They want to say, hey, I'm 

966
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:53,760
related to Amon the Dragonite. 
He was my ancestor. 

967
00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:56,720
That just gives honor to anyone 
who who makes that claim. 

968
00:52:56,720 --> 00:52:59,680
We all know how big a deal 
ancestors are in in Westeros and

969
00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:03,600
in medieval times. 
So it's quite possible that what

970
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:06,400
we know about AIM and the Dragon
Knight is at least a little bit 

971
00:53:06,400 --> 00:53:09,240
slanted towards him being so 
perfect. 

972
00:53:09,240 --> 00:53:11,120
It it does. 
I don't know, maybe he wasn't 

973
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:13,760
really that perfect. 
That doesn't mean he cheated, 

974
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:15,840
slept with his own sister, but 
yeah. 

975
00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:19,280
It's there's, yeah. 
I mean, it's you know, it's I 

976
00:53:19,320 --> 00:53:21,560
think part of the thing that we 
also have to keep in mind is 

977
00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:26,240
that this is George RR Mark. 
He doesn't make perfect people, 

978
00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:30,240
you know, or he and he doesn't 
make total villains either. 

979
00:53:30,240 --> 00:53:33,720
You know, Egon the fourth was a 
bad person in a lot of ways, but

980
00:53:33,720 --> 00:53:36,400
he was not a kind of mustache 
twirling villain. 

981
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:40,400
He had motives. 
He had, you know, things in his 

982
00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:43,400
life that he cared about. 
So, you know, that that 

983
00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:46,920
motivated him and Drew and and 
and sort of, you know, caused 

984
00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:49,200
him to do things. 
So, you know, I don't think he 

985
00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:53,320
acted, you know, because for the
evils, he didn't do it for the 

986
00:53:53,320 --> 00:53:56,520
evils. 
Right on. 

987
00:53:56,880 --> 00:53:59,840
So Deron spent his final years 
on Dragonstone. 

988
00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:03,080
I guess after this time when he 
lost some of his allies at 

989
00:54:03,080 --> 00:54:07,120
court. 
He also by this time had all of 

990
00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:08,760
his sons were born by this 
point. 

991
00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:11,160
We're going to talk about his 
sons a lot in the next section, 

992
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:13,360
but they were all born by then. 
There's four of them. 

993
00:54:13,520 --> 00:54:16,720
So he had his own family. 
His father was just getting 

994
00:54:16,720 --> 00:54:19,840
worse and worse all the time, 
and he lost his allies, so he 

995
00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:21,920
just stayed. 
He spent more and more of his 

996
00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:24,720
time on Dragonstone, away from 
his father, maybe thinking that 

997
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:27,600
the the more distance between 
them, the less friction they'll 

998
00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:30,640
be. 
Maybe his father threatened him 

999
00:54:30,640 --> 00:54:33,600
more often when he was around. 
Maybe just his presence was a 

1000
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:36,680
problem, and maybe just by 
separating the two, it kind of 

1001
00:54:37,000 --> 00:54:41,000
let things calm down a bit. 
However, it is from all 

1002
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:43,600
appearances Egg on the Fourth 
was still talking, was still 

1003
00:54:44,240 --> 00:54:47,840
making threats and and calling 
other, you know, threatening to 

1004
00:54:47,840 --> 00:54:51,120
set Darren aside, certainly not 
doing anything to stop the 

1005
00:54:51,120 --> 00:54:54,240
gossip. 
But he did die at age 49. 

1006
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:57,240
And what we wonder? 
This is an interesting question 

1007
00:54:57,240 --> 00:55:00,320
I have. 
How much time passed between 

1008
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:05,520
this deathbed legitimization of 
all his bastards and the actual 

1009
00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:08,320
his actual death and Darren's 
coronation? 

1010
00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:12,720
Deathbed doesn't mean you know 
he's going to be dead within a 

1011
00:55:12,720 --> 00:55:14,640
couple hours. 
You can be on your deathbed for 

1012
00:55:14,640 --> 00:55:16,400
a month. 
You can be on your deathbed for 

1013
00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:18,600
longer. 
And Aegon, from all accounts, 

1014
00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:20,160
Aegon the 4th died very 
gradually. 

1015
00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:22,240
He didn't just croak of a heart 
attack one day. 

1016
00:55:22,240 --> 00:55:24,440
He had those crazy fleshworms 
growing in. 

1017
00:55:24,440 --> 00:55:29,520
And it's disgusting but sounds 
like a slow so that's a good 

1018
00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:30,280
question. 
Was Daron. 

1019
00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:32,160
Do you think Daron maybe had 
some time to prepare? 

1020
00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:34,840
Do you think he knew in advance 
about any of this? 

1021
00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:39,760
I'm a little sceptical just 
because, I mean, if he had a lot

1022
00:55:39,760 --> 00:55:43,080
of time, I think he would have 
had a better strategy. 

1023
00:55:43,120 --> 00:55:46,480
He just seems smart enough. 
I think this was something that 

1024
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:50,240
he just did not expect to happen
and then just kind of had to 

1025
00:55:50,240 --> 00:55:52,520
deal with it on the on the spur 
of the moment. 

1026
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:54,480
Yeah, that's that. 
That makes sense to me. 

1027
00:55:54,520 --> 00:55:57,440
I, I picture, you know, I 
picture Robert Baratheon and GR 

1028
00:55:57,440 --> 00:56:00,400
Mormont and their, their death 
beds were kind of quick, 

1029
00:56:00,520 --> 00:56:02,120
relatively speaking. 
And they made their dying 

1030
00:56:02,120 --> 00:56:06,040
wishes, you know, take care of, 
you know, rule forming Ned or, 

1031
00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:08,480
you know, make sure Jorah takes 
the black, all those things. 

1032
00:56:09,040 --> 00:56:13,160
Those were a bit more noble 
requests than, you know, make 

1033
00:56:13,160 --> 00:56:16,720
all my bastards Targaryen. 
So either way though. 

1034
00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:18,280
Yeah. 
And, and if we're, if we're 

1035
00:56:18,280 --> 00:56:22,040
following kind of historical 
parallels, one of the things 

1036
00:56:22,040 --> 00:56:24,880
about Henry the Eighth on his 
deathbed is that he changed his 

1037
00:56:24,880 --> 00:56:28,440
mind really fast and, and 
repeatedly he made a lot of 

1038
00:56:28,440 --> 00:56:31,880
wills and sort of, you know, he 
would seem to die and then seem 

1039
00:56:31,880 --> 00:56:33,600
to recover and then seem to die 
again. 

1040
00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:37,000
So part of the issue may have 
just been uncertainty that that,

1041
00:56:37,040 --> 00:56:41,240
you know, up until he finally 
croaked, no one was exactly sure

1042
00:56:41,240 --> 00:56:43,720
what his sort of the last will 
was. 

1043
00:56:43,960 --> 00:56:46,760
You know that there may have 
been previous drafts and he may 

1044
00:56:46,760 --> 00:56:49,240
have made, you know, given 
orders and then countermanded 

1045
00:56:49,240 --> 00:56:52,560
orders so that there was sort of
uncertainty about what was going

1046
00:56:52,560 --> 00:56:53,600
to happen. 
Well, that's interesting. 

1047
00:56:53,600 --> 00:56:54,880
I did not know that about Henry 
the Eighth. 

1048
00:56:54,880 --> 00:56:57,720
That's really cool. 
OK, so we're about to move on to

1049
00:56:57,720 --> 00:57:00,400
Part 4. 
In the meantime, real quick, a 

1050
00:57:00,400 --> 00:57:03,880
couple, I guess a couple months 
ago, I was told by our Hand of 

1051
00:57:03,880 --> 00:57:07,080
the King, Cash Craig that he was
having a lot of fun with the 

1052
00:57:07,160 --> 00:57:10,280
Telltale Games, Game of Thrones 
games. 

1053
00:57:10,280 --> 00:57:13,160
And so we tried them out on his 
recommendation, partly because 

1054
00:57:13,160 --> 00:57:16,640
he mentioned that they had some 
really cool flavor for the 

1055
00:57:16,640 --> 00:57:17,960
world. 
It's it's actually does a good 

1056
00:57:17,960 --> 00:57:20,440
job of capturing the feel of 
Game of Thrones. 

1057
00:57:20,440 --> 00:57:22,200
And of course, there's some of 
the Game of Thrones actors do 

1058
00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:23,600
voices for it. 
Have you tried the games that 

1059
00:57:23,600 --> 00:57:26,160
Steve? 
I have I'm way behind. 

1060
00:57:26,160 --> 00:57:30,640
I did episode 1 and I need to do
episode 2 and 3. 

1061
00:57:32,320 --> 00:57:34,680
I, I kind of didn't like how I 
did episode one. 

1062
00:57:34,680 --> 00:57:38,280
There were certain like I wanted
to ask more about the N Grove 

1063
00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:40,400
and I wanted to like make sure 
that this character was in this 

1064
00:57:40,400 --> 00:57:42,360
place or that I grabbed these 
things. 

1065
00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:47,360
So I think what I'm going to do 
is like go through and get the 

1066
00:57:47,840 --> 00:57:51,000
the the run through that I 
really am sure that I want 

1067
00:57:51,320 --> 00:57:53,800
before I do episodes 2:00 and 
3:00 and then I'm going to do a 

1068
00:57:53,800 --> 00:57:56,720
write up on race for the. 
Iron Oh cool, we we just played 

1069
00:57:56,720 --> 00:57:59,920
Shay and I played Part 2 just 
about a week ago and we had a 

1070
00:57:59,920 --> 00:58:01,520
lot of fun with it. 
We haven't tried Part 3 yet. 

1071
00:58:02,120 --> 00:58:04,440
And yeah, I recommend it folks, 
if you're, if you're looking for

1072
00:58:04,440 --> 00:58:05,800
a game, you can play it on your 
phone. 

1073
00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:07,720
So it's it's kind of fun to be 
able to just do it out and 

1074
00:58:07,720 --> 00:58:09,520
about. 
You can get it through our site,

1075
00:58:09,520 --> 00:58:13,280
www.historyofwesteros.com and 
the bottom right corner there, 

1076
00:58:13,280 --> 00:58:15,480
we've got links to purchase the 
Tell Tale games. 

1077
00:58:15,480 --> 00:58:18,840
They're only like 6 bucks each, 
so it's a pretty good deal. 

1078
00:58:19,280 --> 00:58:23,560
Anyway, it's moving on to part 
4, cleaning up the unworthy 

1079
00:58:23,560 --> 00:58:26,680
mess. 
This is the period of 184 to 

1080
00:58:26,680 --> 00:58:30,400
187, roughly the basically the 
start of King Darren the 

1081
00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:34,280
second's rain. 
Rain in in a world of ice and 

1082
00:58:34,280 --> 00:58:37,000
fire, the world of ice and fire.
Rather, we have Maester Yandel 

1083
00:58:37,240 --> 00:58:40,840
who states, quote, he was 
conscientious in his duties to 

1084
00:58:40,840 --> 00:58:43,640
the realm and sought to 
stabilize it in the wake of 

1085
00:58:43,640 --> 00:58:48,240
Aegon's deathbed decree. 
So the maesters give Darren some

1086
00:58:48,240 --> 00:58:50,160
credit for, you know, trying to 
do his best. 

1087
00:58:50,160 --> 00:58:52,400
And in some cases, he did a 
pretty good job. 

1088
00:58:52,960 --> 00:58:56,120
I would he did a good job 
overall in identifying where a 

1089
00:58:56,120 --> 00:58:59,120
lot of problems were. 
I think he was good at finding 

1090
00:58:59,120 --> 00:59:01,640
the problems and attacking them,
although he didn't always have 

1091
00:59:01,640 --> 00:59:05,320
the right solution. 
I don't think he was, it was it 

1092
00:59:05,320 --> 00:59:06,520
was. 
I don't think there were any 

1093
00:59:06,520 --> 00:59:09,560
cases of where he just didn't 
want to deal with it and it got 

1094
00:59:09,560 --> 00:59:11,520
out of hand. 
I think he either tried to deal 

1095
00:59:11,520 --> 00:59:15,240
with it or dealt with it and did
a did a good job or dealt with 

1096
00:59:15,240 --> 00:59:17,720
it and didn't do a good job. 
I don't think he was ever lazy 

1097
00:59:17,720 --> 00:59:19,920
like his father. 
I maybe the kind of a maybe a 

1098
00:59:19,920 --> 00:59:23,760
bit of a Tywin parallel with 
Tywin's father was, you know, 

1099
00:59:23,800 --> 00:59:26,480
obviously a week and people 
laughed at him and that kind of 

1100
00:59:26,480 --> 00:59:29,680
made Tywin hard and worked 
harder that that really impacted

1101
00:59:29,680 --> 00:59:31,600
his personality. 
Maybe there's a bit of Deron. 

1102
00:59:31,840 --> 00:59:32,760
We're seeing a bit of Deron 
there. 

1103
00:59:32,760 --> 00:59:36,400
He wanted to not be lazy and 
corruptible like his father was.

1104
00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:38,200
Do you think there's any merit 
to that, Steve? 

1105
00:59:38,200 --> 00:59:42,840
Yeah, I think that makes sense. 
I mean, he certainly, you know, 

1106
00:59:43,200 --> 00:59:48,640
wanted to to start his new 
administration fresh and kind of

1107
00:59:48,640 --> 00:59:52,560
sweep out the old administration
with the with the broom. 

1108
00:59:52,960 --> 00:59:55,720
Yes. 
So he started in fact by doing 

1109
00:59:55,720 --> 00:59:58,280
that exact thing. 
He started by removing all the 

1110
00:59:58,280 --> 01:00:02,240
members of the King Small 
Council and replacing them with 

1111
01:00:02,240 --> 01:00:05,160
man of his own choosing, most of
whom proved wise and capable 

1112
01:00:05,160 --> 01:00:07,480
counselors. 
It was a year and more before 

1113
01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:10,680
the City Watch was similarly 
repaired, so he had to think of 

1114
01:00:10,880 --> 01:00:13,200
how awful Janos Slint was. 
It was probably some sort of 

1115
01:00:13,200 --> 01:00:17,560
Janos Slint type figure. 
We we hear about all the. 

1116
01:00:17,840 --> 01:00:20,000
Things that Janos did, even 
later in the books, we hear 

1117
01:00:20,000 --> 01:00:21,800
about a few of the horrible 
things he did, about how a lot 

1118
01:00:21,800 --> 01:00:24,680
of the guys, a lot of the 
highest officers were giving him

1119
01:00:24,680 --> 01:00:27,200
part of their pay and that was 
the price of their promotion in 

1120
01:00:27,200 --> 01:00:30,040
the 1st place. 
When someone just corrupts so 

1121
01:00:30,040 --> 01:00:32,400
many people in an organization 
like that, you can imagine how 

1122
01:00:32,400 --> 01:00:35,080
long it would to to fix that. 
What, what, what do you think 

1123
01:00:35,080 --> 01:00:36,920
about that, Steve? 
What is the process? 

1124
01:00:36,920 --> 01:00:39,440
Well, I mean, especially, you 
know, if if you think about it, 

1125
01:00:40,640 --> 01:00:44,000
you know, Janos Flint was just 
the commander of the of the gold

1126
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:45,960
quotes and he caused a big 
problem. 

1127
01:00:46,640 --> 01:00:50,640
Littlefinger was just the master
of coin and he caused, you know,

1128
01:00:50,640 --> 01:00:53,160
he has an enormous number of 
people, you know, an enormous 

1129
01:00:53,160 --> 01:00:54,600
amount of corruption under his 
belt. 

1130
01:00:55,120 --> 01:00:58,520
Imagine what happens when 
starting from the top, when the 

1131
01:00:58,520 --> 01:01:01,720
king himself is just openly 
corrupt. 

1132
01:01:01,760 --> 01:01:04,840
I mean it really must have been 
sort of a root and branch 

1133
01:01:04,840 --> 01:01:09,040
problem that just like you 
really how do you, how do you 

1134
01:01:09,040 --> 01:01:15,160
maintain day-to-day sort of 
stability and continuity in 

1135
01:01:15,160 --> 01:01:17,200
government when you need to 
replace? 

1136
01:01:17,320 --> 01:01:22,720
Everybody. 
Yeah, that's bad and it's it's 

1137
01:01:22,720 --> 01:01:25,200
interesting too, because the 
more the longer that state of 

1138
01:01:25,200 --> 01:01:27,160
affairs went on the harder it is
to undo it. 

1139
01:01:27,680 --> 01:01:31,640
Now I'll use it to do gooders, 
do gooders like Deron here would

1140
01:01:31,640 --> 01:01:36,360
all are always going to make 
foes who of those who thrive on 

1141
01:01:36,360 --> 01:01:39,040
corruption. 
And that's we had Aegon. 

1142
01:01:39,520 --> 01:01:42,080
The 4th reign was all about 
that. 

1143
01:01:42,560 --> 01:01:46,000
Littlefinger would hate Darren 
the Second, like he isn't a big 

1144
01:01:46,000 --> 01:01:49,280
fan of Stannis's being the idea 
of Stannis becoming king. 

1145
01:01:49,560 --> 01:01:52,320
I bet Littlefinger would have 
completely thrived like mad 

1146
01:01:52,320 --> 01:01:54,200
under Egg on the 4th. 
It's the perfect king for him, a

1147
01:01:54,200 --> 01:01:56,720
king who doesn't care who's this
corruption he shrugs AT. 

1148
01:01:56,720 --> 01:02:00,920
And Littlefinger would certainly
know how to play up the 2 Egg on

1149
01:02:00,920 --> 01:02:04,360
the 4th's desires of being a 
brothel owner and all. 

1150
01:02:05,520 --> 01:02:08,280
Speaking of that, we even hear 
that that that's part of what 

1151
01:02:08,280 --> 01:02:12,280
Egon the 4th did with the City 
Watch was, was having them 

1152
01:02:12,440 --> 01:02:14,680
arrange things at brothels for 
him. 

1153
01:02:14,680 --> 01:02:17,200
And that sounds like there was 
often, you know, violence and, 

1154
01:02:17,200 --> 01:02:20,520
and intimidation involved. 
So the list goes on. 

1155
01:02:21,080 --> 01:02:25,600
So these are people who never 
should have had these jobs in 

1156
01:02:25,600 --> 01:02:27,680
the 1st place. 
But we know a human, we know how

1157
01:02:27,680 --> 01:02:30,760
people are. 
Once someone has tasted power, 

1158
01:02:31,560 --> 01:02:32,720
it's hard for them to give it 
up. 

1159
01:02:32,840 --> 01:02:35,560
And so Daron was just rooting 
all these people out that never 

1160
01:02:35,560 --> 01:02:36,920
should have been in charge in 
the 1st place. 

1161
01:02:36,920 --> 01:02:39,280
But the fact is, they were, they
got a taste of that power. 

1162
01:02:39,480 --> 01:02:42,600
They want to get it back. 
And the way to do that is to 

1163
01:02:42,600 --> 01:02:46,560
support anyone else who isn't 
Daron, anyone who isn't him. 

1164
01:02:46,560 --> 01:02:48,880
At least they have a chance of 
getting it back into it. 

1165
01:02:49,320 --> 01:02:52,200
So Stephen, what do you think 
some some of the top people 

1166
01:02:52,200 --> 01:02:53,920
here? 
What do you what do you think of

1167
01:02:54,200 --> 01:02:57,800
what they might have done and 
maybe some examples of foodies 

1168
01:02:57,800 --> 01:02:59,320
people that he pissed off were? 
Sure. 

1169
01:02:59,720 --> 01:03:03,840
So I think one good example is 
the Lostons because, you know, 

1170
01:03:03,840 --> 01:03:07,320
they had gotten their power 
through Aegon the 4th through, 

1171
01:03:07,760 --> 01:03:11,440
you know, basically, you know, 
pimping out their their own 

1172
01:03:11,440 --> 01:03:14,680
daughters to get hair and all. 
Daughters plural, yes. 

1173
01:03:14,680 --> 01:03:18,280
Yeah, I mean, you know, so I 
definitely think the Lostons 

1174
01:03:20,040 --> 01:03:22,360
that, you know, an interesting 
case where it didn't happen, and

1175
01:03:22,360 --> 01:03:26,000
I've always been curious about 
why it didn't happen, is the 

1176
01:03:26,000 --> 01:03:29,560
Hand of the King blanking on his
name. 

1177
01:03:30,400 --> 01:03:32,000
Butterwell, Lord. 
Butterwell, Lord. 

1178
01:03:32,880 --> 01:03:37,200
You'd think that, you know, that
would be the most sort of 

1179
01:03:37,200 --> 01:03:40,280
obvious place to start. 
But, you know, Aegon was 

1180
01:03:40,280 --> 01:03:43,360
certainly corrupt, but you can 
be corrupt and still be good at 

1181
01:03:43,520 --> 01:03:45,400
your job. 
So maybe it was sort of a case 

1182
01:03:45,400 --> 01:03:49,000
of, you know, he was just good 
enough at his job to avoid that 

1183
01:03:49,000 --> 01:03:53,720
that broom. 
Now the the really interesting 

1184
01:03:53,720 --> 01:03:57,080
case and the sort of the most 
ambiguous cases is that of Sir 

1185
01:03:57,080 --> 01:04:01,240
Quentin Ball AKA Fireball. 
Yes, he we'll give a quote about

1186
01:04:01,240 --> 01:04:03,560
him real quick. 
This this quote also kind of 

1187
01:04:03,560 --> 01:04:05,000
explains what went wrong. 
Quote. 

1188
01:04:05,080 --> 01:04:08,760
King Aegon promised to raise him
to the Kingsguard, so Fireball 

1189
01:04:08,760 --> 01:04:10,840
made his wife join the Silent 
Sisters. 

1190
01:04:11,000 --> 01:04:14,760
Only by the time a place came 
open, King Aegon was dead, and 

1191
01:04:14,760 --> 01:04:17,360
King Daron named Sir William 
Wilde instead. 

1192
01:04:17,640 --> 01:04:20,360
You know, Fireball wound up 
being Damon Blackfyre's most 

1193
01:04:20,360 --> 01:04:23,040
valuable commander, with maybe 
the exception of Bitter Steel. 

1194
01:04:23,960 --> 01:04:28,280
We'll talk more about him later,
but for now, was this a huge 

1195
01:04:28,280 --> 01:04:30,840
mistake that Daron made? 
Or was it maybe? 

1196
01:04:30,840 --> 01:04:32,400
Did he have some concerns about 
Fireball? 

1197
01:04:32,400 --> 01:04:34,040
What do you think? 
Well, this is the interesting 

1198
01:04:34,040 --> 01:04:37,360
thing about Fireball. 
I mean, he's known for having a,

1199
01:04:37,360 --> 01:04:41,240
a fiery temper, quite literally.
So it could be that it was just 

1200
01:04:41,240 --> 01:04:46,280
a personality clash that, you 
know, a, a more peaceable sort 

1201
01:04:46,280 --> 01:04:51,520
of, you know, rational monarch 
might not have gotten on with 

1202
01:04:51,520 --> 01:04:55,440
such a passionate night like 
Fireball. 

1203
01:04:55,440 --> 01:04:58,840
But you know, in terms of what 
Fireball's job was, you know, he

1204
01:04:58,840 --> 01:05:01,080
was the master of arms at the 
Black key. 

1205
01:05:01,360 --> 01:05:04,400
He was clearly very good at that
because a lot of the people that

1206
01:05:04,400 --> 01:05:08,160
he ended up training, you know, 
Damon Blackfyre, Baylor breaks 

1207
01:05:08,160 --> 01:05:11,920
beer, bitter steel, etcetera. 
They they went on to become very

1208
01:05:11,920 --> 01:05:14,800
good warriors. 
And it may be that it was just a

1209
01:05:14,800 --> 01:05:18,680
case of of, you know, guilt by 
association, not because 

1210
01:05:18,680 --> 01:05:21,240
Fireball was friends with Aegon 
the 4th. 

1211
01:05:21,240 --> 01:05:24,840
That must mean that he was, you 
know, a bad guy and corrupt and 

1212
01:05:24,840 --> 01:05:26,480
therefore he doesn't get his 
post. 

1213
01:05:27,200 --> 01:05:29,920
I think ultimate, yeah. 
I think ultimately it it 

1214
01:05:29,920 --> 01:05:32,680
probably was an estate that you 
know, he got rid of. 

1215
01:05:32,680 --> 01:05:36,040
Someone who you know, in terms 
of what the actual job of being 

1216
01:05:36,040 --> 01:05:38,560
a Kingsguard is, was probably 
good at his job. 

1217
01:05:39,440 --> 01:05:42,360
That's true and there's possibly
a political element as well. 

1218
01:05:42,360 --> 01:05:45,040
Now we pointed out maybe Deron 
just didn't realize how 

1219
01:05:45,800 --> 01:05:50,720
problematic this change would be
how what an enemy he would make 

1220
01:05:50,720 --> 01:05:53,280
and fireball. 
It's easy to to to say, OK, he 

1221
01:05:53,280 --> 01:05:55,240
didn't see that coming. 
Who could have seen that coming?

1222
01:05:55,240 --> 01:05:58,080
Who could see who could see this
guy becoming the top one of the 

1223
01:05:58,080 --> 01:06:00,480
top generals with black fires? 
Well, maybe someone could see 

1224
01:06:00,480 --> 01:06:02,240
that. 
But if assuming that that we 

1225
01:06:02,240 --> 01:06:04,880
gave him a pass on that, there's
a couple other things. 

1226
01:06:05,360 --> 01:06:10,680
Possibly it wasn't so much that 
he was worried about leaving 

1227
01:06:10,680 --> 01:06:12,520
this man disgruntled. 
It there may have been a 

1228
01:06:12,520 --> 01:06:15,600
political reason for naming Sir 
William Wilde over him. 

1229
01:06:15,600 --> 01:06:19,400
We we don't know this, but of 
course, as we're about to see, 

1230
01:06:19,400 --> 01:06:23,920
this section that we're entering
into is Deron making peace 

1231
01:06:23,920 --> 01:06:27,160
through marriages. 
That's a very common trope and a

1232
01:06:27,160 --> 01:06:30,720
very common strategy as you make
you, you the people who get you 

1233
01:06:30,720 --> 01:06:34,200
into power, you give them 
positions within your new regime

1234
01:06:34,880 --> 01:06:37,160
and they're loyal to you. 
They've already shown their 

1235
01:06:37,160 --> 01:06:39,800
loyalty and their loyalty is 
both rewarded and continued 

1236
01:06:39,800 --> 01:06:41,840
because you've brought them 
along with you and given them a 

1237
01:06:41,840 --> 01:06:45,520
piece of a piece of the power. 
William Wilde is from a 

1238
01:06:45,520 --> 01:06:48,080
Stormlands house. 
The the Wilds are from the Rain 

1239
01:06:48,080 --> 01:06:49,960
are from rain house in the 
Stormlands. 

1240
01:06:49,960 --> 01:06:51,760
The Stormlands is not a marcher 
house. 

1241
01:06:51,840 --> 01:06:54,640
I'm sorry, the rain house is not
a marcher house. 

1242
01:06:55,000 --> 01:06:59,240
But the Stormlands still in 
general are not so happy with 

1243
01:06:59,240 --> 01:07:02,120
the Dornish. 
They're kind of, well, not maybe

1244
01:07:02,120 --> 01:07:04,920
as bad as the Reach in this part
of the Stormlands, but in 

1245
01:07:04,920 --> 01:07:07,720
general the Stormlands are 
ancient enemies of the Dornish. 

1246
01:07:08,200 --> 01:07:11,480
So it might have been kind of 
throwing the Stormlands a bit of

1247
01:07:11,480 --> 01:07:13,560
a bone saying, hey, look, I'm 
naming one of your own to the 

1248
01:07:13,560 --> 01:07:15,760
Kingsguard. 
I'm I'm remembering you guys, 

1249
01:07:15,760 --> 01:07:17,720
I'm showing you that you're on 
my side, etcetera. 

1250
01:07:17,720 --> 01:07:19,640
So it may there may have been 
some politics involved there 

1251
01:07:19,640 --> 01:07:22,560
too. 
And, and, and House Wild is, you

1252
01:07:22,560 --> 01:07:26,280
know, House Wild and House Ball 
are both from the Stormlands, 

1253
01:07:26,280 --> 01:07:30,280
but the, the Wilds are much more
important than the ball. 

1254
01:07:30,480 --> 01:07:35,200
The Wilds are, you know, they, 
they have a named castle under 

1255
01:07:35,200 --> 01:07:38,240
their, you know, under their 
house, whereas the balls are 

1256
01:07:38,240 --> 01:07:40,840
just a nightly house. 
So it may be that he just sort 

1257
01:07:40,840 --> 01:07:44,960
of said, you know, I need this, 
this job, this office, this 

1258
01:07:44,960 --> 01:07:46,960
reward for a more important 
house. 

1259
01:07:47,360 --> 01:07:50,400
Well, now one of the other major
problems, apart from all these 

1260
01:07:50,800 --> 01:07:54,040
awful counselors left in place, 
all these corrupt individuals 

1261
01:07:54,040 --> 01:07:56,720
that got their appointments 
through Darren's terrible 

1262
01:07:56,720 --> 01:08:00,880
father, there's the other 
problem that has lingered over 

1263
01:08:00,880 --> 01:08:03,160
his whole reign and during his 
father's reign, which was of 

1264
01:08:03,160 --> 01:08:06,200
course the question of his 
legitimacy that was built up 

1265
01:08:06,200 --> 01:08:08,000
through his father's rumor 
mongering. 

1266
01:08:08,000 --> 01:08:11,000
And of course, we know how 
everyone loves gossip. 

1267
01:08:11,000 --> 01:08:16,160
The the story of Daron not being
his father's son is a lot 

1268
01:08:16,160 --> 01:08:19,439
juicier and more interesting 
than oh, everyone's just their 

1269
01:08:19,439 --> 01:08:21,880
own father. 
And you know, there's no, no 

1270
01:08:21,880 --> 01:08:23,880
questions of paternity at all. 
That's not interesting. 

1271
01:08:24,880 --> 01:08:27,560
But we don't get to decide the 
basis of reality based on 

1272
01:08:27,560 --> 01:08:28,920
whether something is interesting
or not. 

1273
01:08:29,359 --> 01:08:32,160
The point is, though, that 
Darren was well aware of this 

1274
01:08:32,160 --> 01:08:34,840
problem and he attacked it, But 
like, he attacked a lot of these

1275
01:08:34,880 --> 01:08:38,520
other problems, quote, he chose 
to be crowned with his father's 

1276
01:08:38,520 --> 01:08:41,600
crown, a decision likely 
intended to quell any remaining 

1277
01:08:41,600 --> 01:08:44,600
doubts about his legitimacy. 
So here's another parallel we 

1278
01:08:44,600 --> 01:08:49,160
have to the modern timeline of A
Song of Ice and Fire. 

1279
01:08:49,600 --> 01:08:52,720
We all know by now, given 
Joffrey, Tommen, and others, how

1280
01:08:52,720 --> 01:08:57,600
important this legitimacy is. 
It's a huge problem for any 

1281
01:08:57,680 --> 01:09:00,520
contender for the throne to be 
seen as illegitimate, or any 

1282
01:09:00,520 --> 01:09:03,720
sitting king to have these 
questions hanging over them. 

1283
01:09:03,920 --> 01:09:10,080
Darren's children, of course, as
well, are cast out just by their

1284
01:09:10,080 --> 01:09:13,080
association. 
Here there, if Darren is removed

1285
01:09:13,080 --> 01:09:17,200
from the line of succession by 
virtue of him being revealed to 

1286
01:09:17,200 --> 01:09:19,960
be a bastard, that would throw 
his own sons out of the way as 

1287
01:09:19,960 --> 01:09:23,200
well. 
Now Darren's children however, 

1288
01:09:23,840 --> 01:09:27,120
thankfully for him, they were a 
big plus for him. 

1289
01:09:27,120 --> 01:09:32,000
They helped him keep his line 
and helped him majorly fight 

1290
01:09:32,000 --> 01:09:35,359
against the black fires. 
Quote a rather a young Sir 

1291
01:09:35,359 --> 01:09:38,359
Duncan the Tall thinks. 
Quote, The Lion of the Dragon 

1292
01:09:38,359 --> 01:09:41,359
Kings had almost died out during
his Father's Day, but it was 

1293
01:09:41,359 --> 01:09:44,120
commonly said that Darren the 
2nd and his sons had left it 

1294
01:09:44,120 --> 01:09:48,160
secure for all time. 
So let's look at these lines 

1295
01:09:48,160 --> 01:09:50,880
securing Suns so so to speak of 
whom there were four. 

1296
01:09:51,319 --> 01:09:53,600
We only know the birthday to one
of them, which we already talked

1297
01:09:53,600 --> 01:09:55,000
about. 
Baylor breaks beer born around 

1298
01:09:55,000 --> 01:09:58,400
170 and we have about our we 
have a loose range for the other

1299
01:09:58,400 --> 01:10:02,800
3 between 171 and 178. 
For the other three, we don't 

1300
01:10:02,800 --> 01:10:04,240
know exactly. 
Eventually perhaps those dates 

1301
01:10:04,240 --> 01:10:05,840
will come out, but it's not 
terribly important. 

1302
01:10:05,960 --> 01:10:08,080
Three of them were would would 
be Prince of Dragonstone. 

1303
01:10:08,080 --> 01:10:11,360
Eventually the only one of those
would sit the Iron Throne. 

1304
01:10:11,560 --> 01:10:15,480
The the 4th would sit the Iron 
Throne having never been Prince 

1305
01:10:15,480 --> 01:10:17,840
of Dragonstone, which sounds 
weird, but that's just because 

1306
01:10:18,120 --> 01:10:20,080
of the great Spring sickness 
where just a whole bunch of 

1307
01:10:20,080 --> 01:10:23,720
people died at once. 
But more to the point, three of 

1308
01:10:23,720 --> 01:10:27,360
the four sons of Darren would 
have children of their own. 

1309
01:10:27,480 --> 01:10:30,640
So they did keep the line going.
They did keep it secure as they 

1310
01:10:30,640 --> 01:10:34,840
said quote the eldest Prince 
Baylor won the name break spear 

1311
01:10:34,840 --> 01:10:38,400
at the age of 17 following his 
famous victory at Princess 

1312
01:10:38,400 --> 01:10:42,000
Daenerys wedding tourney. 
He defeated Damon Blackfyre in 

1313
01:10:42,000 --> 01:10:45,600
the final tilt and his youngest 
son Prince Makar seemed like to 

1314
01:10:45,600 --> 01:10:47,760
show a similar prowess. 
Stephen, what do you think about

1315
01:10:47,760 --> 01:10:49,720
that? 
You think that that victory when

1316
01:10:49,720 --> 01:10:51,840
they were both 17, this is 
around 187. 

1317
01:10:52,000 --> 01:10:53,360
How big a deal do you think that
was? 

1318
01:10:53,360 --> 01:10:55,120
I think that was probably a huge
deal. 

1319
01:10:55,120 --> 01:10:59,760
I mean, for for Damon, it would 
have been a sort of a symbolic 

1320
01:10:59,760 --> 01:11:04,880
protest of the the marriage, a 
way to sort of, you know, show 

1321
01:11:04,880 --> 01:11:09,160
that he was the champion and 
that Daenerys was his sort of 

1322
01:11:10,120 --> 01:11:11,600
queen of love and beauty, as it 
were. 

1323
01:11:11,600 --> 01:11:12,560
Yeah. 
That's who we would have given 

1324
01:11:12,560 --> 01:11:15,440
it to. 
Whereas, you know, with with 

1325
01:11:15,440 --> 01:11:19,280
Baylor sort of defeating him, 
it's kind of a sign that, you 

1326
01:11:19,280 --> 01:11:25,040
know, this, this union of, of 
Targaryen and Martel is going to

1327
01:11:25,040 --> 01:11:30,560
succeed, is going to in fact, 
defeat the older, you know, 

1328
01:11:30,560 --> 01:11:34,320
Targaryen line because you know,
both, you know, Damon, sorry, 

1329
01:11:34,320 --> 01:11:38,840
Baylor himself is a product of a
marriage between a Targaryen and

1330
01:11:38,840 --> 01:11:40,840
a Martel. 
And here he's saying we're going

1331
01:11:40,840 --> 01:11:43,560
to have another union of 
Targaryen and Martel. 

1332
01:11:43,840 --> 01:11:48,000
Yes, and a much bigger one too. 
It it also gives us a sense of 

1333
01:11:48,200 --> 01:11:50,280
how it's standing. 
These two really were I mean 

1334
01:11:50,280 --> 01:11:53,280
these guys we we we know that 
Damon people way people talk 

1335
01:11:53,280 --> 01:11:55,560
about him, one of the greatest 
fighters of all time in 

1336
01:11:55,560 --> 01:11:58,560
Westeros, but Baylor beats him 
and Baylor was also considered 

1337
01:11:58,560 --> 01:12:00,360
one of the finest Knights of his
era. 

1338
01:12:01,200 --> 01:12:05,720
So he's clearly no slouch. 
He might be just a almost the 

1339
01:12:05,720 --> 01:12:09,400
equal or perhaps beyond Damon 
Black fire, but never but just 

1340
01:12:09,400 --> 01:12:12,320
was a lot less flashy and was 
never a contender for the throne

1341
01:12:12,320 --> 01:12:15,080
other than being an heir who 
died before he got his chance. 

1342
01:12:16,200 --> 01:12:19,680
There's another comparison here 
that I want to talk about and 

1343
01:12:19,680 --> 01:12:22,120
the prone to the problems with 
Baylor and this this takes us 

1344
01:12:22,120 --> 01:12:24,240
back to what we were talking 
about before with the different 

1345
01:12:24,240 --> 01:12:27,960
races of Darren's. 
The ethnicity of Darren's wife 

1346
01:12:27,960 --> 01:12:31,000
being Dornish and the ethnicity 
of Egon the 4th's wife being 

1347
01:12:31,000 --> 01:12:32,040
Lysine. 
Even though they're both 

1348
01:12:32,040 --> 01:12:34,120
foreigners. 
We talked about how there's much

1349
01:12:34,120 --> 01:12:39,080
more of a predisposition towards
adorn and and a -1 in fact, 

1350
01:12:39,320 --> 01:12:42,120
well, this problem really 
manifested with Baylor because 

1351
01:12:42,120 --> 01:12:46,080
he looked Dornish. 
Despite being a great fighter, 

1352
01:12:46,080 --> 01:12:49,400
except being honorable, noble 
and attracting lots of 

1353
01:12:49,400 --> 01:12:54,320
followers, he looked Dornish and
that's just sad. 

1354
01:12:54,320 --> 01:12:56,560
It's just, it's basically just 
straight racism. 

1355
01:12:57,000 --> 01:12:59,560
What do you think about that? 
Yeah, I mean, I, I think part of

1356
01:12:59,560 --> 01:13:02,720
the issue is that, you know, 
there have been accusations of 

1357
01:13:02,720 --> 01:13:04,440
bastardy before. 
I mean, you can go all the way 

1358
01:13:04,440 --> 01:13:06,720
back to to in his Targaryen, 
right? 

1359
01:13:06,720 --> 01:13:10,440
But as long as you had the 
Dragons, there was always kind 

1360
01:13:10,440 --> 01:13:15,000
of an ultimate DNA test, right? 
Like, you know, if you if you 

1361
01:13:15,000 --> 01:13:18,680
could get the Dragons to 
recognize you, then there was no

1362
01:13:18,680 --> 01:13:20,640
question that you were clearly a
Targaryen. 

1363
01:13:21,440 --> 01:13:23,200
Baylor couldn't do that. 
Yeah. 

1364
01:13:25,720 --> 01:13:27,240
Yeah, there were no Dragons. 
Exactly. 

1365
01:13:28,560 --> 01:13:30,880
So that would have been a way to
get overcome that problem. 

1366
01:13:30,880 --> 01:13:32,960
But like you say, they didn't 
have that option. 

1367
01:13:33,240 --> 01:13:37,840
So he just had to be amazing. 
And he was, but it still wasn't 

1368
01:13:37,840 --> 01:13:40,680
enough. 
So he didn't He didn't have 

1369
01:13:40,680 --> 01:13:41,440
what? 
Rainier's kid. 

1370
01:13:41,440 --> 01:13:44,240
Rainier's kids were even more 
blatant because Rainier, you 

1371
01:13:44,240 --> 01:13:46,920
know, Princess Rainiera, she was
looked Targaryen and her husband

1372
01:13:46,920 --> 01:13:52,080
looked Targaryen, but her three 
kids, her three strong children 

1373
01:13:52,080 --> 01:13:54,320
look had brown hair. 
It's like, how do you how's that

1374
01:13:54,320 --> 01:13:56,400
even possible? 
Well, the only explanation would

1375
01:13:56,400 --> 01:13:59,680
have been, besides the obvious, 
that they were not really their 

1376
01:13:59,680 --> 01:14:00,960
father's children. 
Would we have? 

1377
01:14:01,040 --> 01:14:04,200
They'd have to play it off as 
their veil, her mother being 

1378
01:14:04,200 --> 01:14:06,120
from the veil or something kind 
of thin. 

1379
01:14:06,600 --> 01:14:11,280
Anyway, the next child would be 
Aries, Darren's second child. 

1380
01:14:11,280 --> 01:14:13,160
Aries. 
He was not particularly 

1381
01:14:13,160 --> 01:14:15,760
impressive. 
He was, in fact. 

1382
01:14:15,760 --> 01:14:18,600
Had he been the first son, it 
might have really probably would

1383
01:14:18,600 --> 01:14:21,400
have exacerbated Daron's 
problems with securing his 

1384
01:14:21,400 --> 01:14:23,800
throne because he was bookish 
similar to his father who's 

1385
01:14:23,800 --> 01:14:26,320
really interested in arcane 
stuff higher in the higher 

1386
01:14:26,320 --> 01:14:29,080
mysteries. 
He although he we don't hear him

1387
01:14:29,080 --> 01:14:32,560
being pious at all. 
We hear this is 1 very minor 

1388
01:14:32,560 --> 01:14:35,440
quote here from Jamie of all 
people quote the realm had not 

1389
01:14:35,440 --> 01:14:38,040
had a Lord confessor since the 
second Daron and Lord. 

1390
01:14:38,040 --> 01:14:39,960
Confessor. 
Well, actually, the Lord 

1391
01:14:39,960 --> 01:14:41,920
Confessor is not a religious 
physician. 

1392
01:14:43,680 --> 01:14:45,800
The Lord Confessor is an 
official torturer. 

1393
01:14:47,720 --> 01:14:48,800
Interesting. 
Yeah, you're right. 

1394
01:14:48,800 --> 01:14:49,840
Confess. 
Of course. 

1395
01:14:49,840 --> 01:14:51,160
Forcing people to confess. 
I miss I. 

1396
01:14:51,840 --> 01:14:54,080
My mistake. 
But but the thing about Eris 

1397
01:14:54,080 --> 01:14:57,800
that's interesting is that you 
you'd think that someone with 

1398
01:14:57,800 --> 01:15:03,320
his interest might have done 
something similar to what later 

1399
01:15:03,680 --> 01:15:05,840
Eamon Targaryen will do. 
Like why didn't he join the 

1400
01:15:05,840 --> 01:15:10,480
maesters, for example. 
And it it may be that his, you 

1401
01:15:10,520 --> 01:15:14,040
know, that Deron kind of looking
at his dynastic situation said, 

1402
01:15:14,320 --> 01:15:20,040
I need this kid around as a 
symbol of, you know, if anything

1403
01:15:20,040 --> 01:15:22,560
happens to Baylor, there is 
another kid. 

1404
01:15:22,960 --> 01:15:29,640
And you know, that I can use him
as a marriage piece and make 

1405
01:15:29,640 --> 01:15:31,520
sure that, you know, I get 
another ally. 

1406
01:15:31,520 --> 01:15:35,000
So, you know, he may have 
actually wanted to be a, a, a 

1407
01:15:35,000 --> 01:15:38,800
maester and that might explain, 
you know what, what went on with

1408
01:15:38,800 --> 01:15:41,080
his marriage. 
So the next child would be 

1409
01:15:41,080 --> 01:15:44,760
Regal, and Regal was even as 
unimpressive as Arias was. 

1410
01:15:44,760 --> 01:15:47,440
Regal was even less impressive. 
He's a kind of a poster child 

1411
01:15:47,440 --> 01:15:50,720
for insane Targaryens, but 
harmless. 

1412
01:15:50,720 --> 01:15:54,880
Thankfully he wasn't Magor or 
Aryan Bride Flame, but he was 

1413
01:15:54,880 --> 01:15:58,120
apparently known for dancing 
naked in the halls of the Red 

1414
01:15:58,120 --> 01:16:00,440
Keep, so. 
And he might be the Targaryen 

1415
01:16:00,440 --> 01:16:04,040
who dressed up a a monkey I. 
Agree. 

1416
01:16:04,040 --> 01:16:06,840
Yeah, that's that's the best 
guess that I've seen for who 

1417
01:16:06,840 --> 01:16:11,720
that one was. 
Now, the final son of Darren was

1418
01:16:11,720 --> 01:16:14,000
Makar. 
And we we've probably all heard 

1419
01:16:14,000 --> 01:16:16,240
of Makar. 
He's the most famous, most 

1420
01:16:16,240 --> 01:16:19,840
certainly because he's the one 
that the line continued through.

1421
01:16:20,000 --> 01:16:22,520
And he was also a fine warrior 
himself. 

1422
01:16:22,520 --> 01:16:25,040
And he was the most Targaryen 
looking. 

1423
01:16:25,800 --> 01:16:29,960
And thankfully, no, none of 
Daron name none of Daron's 

1424
01:16:29,960 --> 01:16:32,640
children were also named Daron. 
That saved us a little bit of 

1425
01:16:32,920 --> 01:16:35,520
ethic, though I guess it would 
be too much to expect that none 

1426
01:16:35,520 --> 01:16:37,440
of Daron's grandchildren will be
named Daron. 

1427
01:16:37,840 --> 01:16:42,880
In fact, Daron the second his 
last son Makar again did have 

1428
01:16:43,520 --> 01:16:46,160
did name his first born Daron. 
Matt Daron turned out to be 

1429
01:16:46,160 --> 01:16:49,160
Daron the Drunkard. 
But Makar did of course also 

1430
01:16:49,160 --> 01:16:51,400
Father Maester Amon and Egon the
5th. 

1431
01:16:51,400 --> 01:16:55,040
So overall, his so his sons were
a real divided. 

1432
01:16:55,040 --> 01:16:57,520
You got Darren the drunkard, an 
Aryan bright flame, and then you

1433
01:16:57,520 --> 01:17:00,960
have Maestra Aim and an egg like
that's a poof, that's feast or. 

1434
01:17:00,960 --> 01:17:02,600
Fan It's that coin getting 
flipped. 

1435
01:17:03,240 --> 01:17:10,360
Yes, that's definitely true. 
So onward now the there, there's

1436
01:17:10,360 --> 01:17:12,040
a little something to be said 
about their names. 

1437
01:17:12,040 --> 01:17:13,640
I don't want to get too deep 
into this because it's just 

1438
01:17:13,640 --> 01:17:19,200
really esoteric, but Makar 
rather Baylor Breakspear named 

1439
01:17:19,200 --> 01:17:23,320
his children Valar and Mataris, 
which those sound vaguely like 

1440
01:17:23,480 --> 01:17:26,920
Valyrian, but there's no AE in 
them, which is so common for a 

1441
01:17:26,920 --> 01:17:28,800
Targaryen. 
Now that's not going to like 

1442
01:17:28,920 --> 01:17:30,520
people of the era aren't going 
to know that. 

1443
01:17:30,520 --> 01:17:32,440
I mean, most commoners can't 
read or spell. 

1444
01:17:32,440 --> 01:17:34,800
They have no idea about what 
these these naming conventions. 

1445
01:17:35,120 --> 01:17:37,520
But from our perspective, it's 
this it's it's an interesting 

1446
01:17:37,520 --> 01:17:40,080
academic question. 
We wonder if that's if people 

1447
01:17:40,080 --> 01:17:43,840
saw that as even more 
dornification of the court or if

1448
01:17:43,840 --> 01:17:45,720
it was of these are actually 
traditional names. 

1449
01:17:45,720 --> 01:17:48,240
We just we don't have prior 
examples of those names being 

1450
01:17:48,240 --> 01:17:49,720
used. 
What do you think about that, 

1451
01:17:49,720 --> 01:17:50,880
Steve? 
Do you think there's anything? 

1452
01:17:50,880 --> 01:17:54,400
To that I mean, I'm, I'm not 
sure you know, Valar sounds a 

1453
01:17:54,400 --> 01:17:58,640
lot like Valar. 
Mataris sounds a lot like 

1454
01:17:58,640 --> 01:18:00,920
Montaris. 
These same. 

1455
01:18:00,960 --> 01:18:02,840
These seem pretty Valyrian to 
me. 

1456
01:18:02,840 --> 01:18:06,440
They may not be Targaryen names 
necessarily, but they do sound 

1457
01:18:06,440 --> 01:18:09,760
like Valyrian names. 
Yeah, that's true. 

1458
01:18:10,000 --> 01:18:12,240
So it might have, that might not
have been a problem, but it's 

1459
01:18:12,240 --> 01:18:15,760
interesting to look at. 
Now let's turn our eyes to 

1460
01:18:15,760 --> 01:18:17,840
Darren the Second's marriage 
strategies. 

1461
01:18:17,840 --> 01:18:23,840
As I said before, the way he 
sort of paved the the road to 

1462
01:18:23,840 --> 01:18:28,240
peace was through a series of 
marriage alliances, not just not

1463
01:18:28,240 --> 01:18:32,800
just his own with it to his 
Dornish wife, but with his sons 

1464
01:18:33,160 --> 01:18:35,440
and some other members of his 
family. 

1465
01:18:35,440 --> 01:18:38,480
So basically looking from 
looking from the perspective of 

1466
01:18:38,600 --> 01:18:41,880
of outsiders as well, marriage 
to a royal family is highly 

1467
01:18:41,880 --> 01:18:44,080
sought after. 
Even if you're maybe not a big 

1468
01:18:44,080 --> 01:18:47,760
fan of Deron, the second you 
you're a, you might be flexible 

1469
01:18:47,760 --> 01:18:50,720
enough if you had a chance to 
marry into his family because 

1470
01:18:50,720 --> 01:18:54,840
that's the royal family. 
Basically, a king who makes good

1471
01:18:54,840 --> 01:18:57,920
choices with his marriages can 
really stabilize the realm. 

1472
01:18:58,000 --> 01:19:00,320
On the other hand, bad marriage 
choices can have the opposite 

1473
01:19:00,320 --> 01:19:01,800
effect. 
Marriages do mean powerful 

1474
01:19:01,800 --> 01:19:05,680
allies. 
A strong and a strong king can 

1475
01:19:05,680 --> 01:19:08,000
get more done. 
When a king doesn't have to 

1476
01:19:08,000 --> 01:19:12,720
worry about rebellions and 
discontent, he can take a strong

1477
01:19:12,720 --> 01:19:15,960
firm hand and and remake the 
realm the way he wants. 

1478
01:19:16,120 --> 01:19:18,800
For better or worse. 
That has played out a number of 

1479
01:19:18,800 --> 01:19:21,240
ways of Targaryen history. 
So let let real quickly, let's 

1480
01:19:21,240 --> 01:19:24,760
talk about how marriage has been
used in the past in the 

1481
01:19:24,760 --> 01:19:27,640
Targaryen dynasty. 
We have a variety of examples. 

1482
01:19:27,920 --> 01:19:30,080
Jaharius the Conciliator had 
thirteen children. 

1483
01:19:30,080 --> 01:19:33,680
All right, let me let me just 
grab my my world of ice and. 

1484
01:19:33,720 --> 01:19:35,760
Fire Jaharius, like I said, had 
13 children. 

1485
01:19:35,760 --> 01:19:38,440
So he was, as we have said 
multiple times, we would 

1486
01:19:38,440 --> 01:19:41,400
consider him the best Targaryen 
king and he was able to make 

1487
01:19:41,400 --> 01:19:43,200
marriage alliances and he did a 
good job of it. 

1488
01:19:43,400 --> 01:19:47,160
Of course, it helps to have 13 
children to marry off. 

1489
01:19:47,160 --> 01:19:50,880
That's just a huge advantage. 
On the other hand, we have 

1490
01:19:51,560 --> 01:19:52,880
Viserys the First. 
Right. 

1491
01:19:52,880 --> 01:19:55,760
And, and you see, you know, 
look, well, I, I was just going 

1492
01:19:55,760 --> 01:19:58,400
to say, you know, if you look at
Jeharis, the first, right, he 

1493
01:19:58,400 --> 01:20:01,800
gets one of his children married
into house Aaron that, you know,

1494
01:20:01,800 --> 01:20:06,400
helps cement their loyalties. 
He also marries one of his kids 

1495
01:20:06,400 --> 01:20:09,520
into House Baratheon. 
So there's that link there. 

1496
01:20:09,720 --> 01:20:13,000
You know, he's, he's looking for
great houses and making sure 

1497
01:20:13,000 --> 01:20:16,200
that you can build a sort of a 
national power block. 

1498
01:20:16,920 --> 01:20:20,760
So moving on, we have Vissaris 
the first, probably the one who 

1499
01:20:21,560 --> 01:20:24,600
arguably made the worst 
decisions with marriages, 

1500
01:20:24,600 --> 01:20:28,800
including his own, and he set up
the Dance of the Dragons, even 

1501
01:20:28,800 --> 01:20:31,760
though the problems he caused 
didn't affect his own reign so 

1502
01:20:31,760 --> 01:20:33,480
much, they were kind of 
something he'd left for his 

1503
01:20:33,480 --> 01:20:36,040
successor. 
Yeah, I mean, the, the, the, the

1504
01:20:36,040 --> 01:20:40,480
problem with or the issue with 
dynastic alliances is that you 

1505
01:20:40,480 --> 01:20:44,920
have to make them work with one 
another. 

1506
01:20:45,000 --> 01:20:48,520
You know, you're dealing with 
potentially rival houses. 

1507
01:20:48,880 --> 01:20:54,080
So Desirous's problem is that he
marries into house Aaron doesn't

1508
01:20:54,080 --> 01:20:59,840
have a son and then marries, or 
at least a son that lives and 

1509
01:20:59,840 --> 01:21:02,840
then doesn't and then marries 
into the high towers. 

1510
01:21:02,840 --> 01:21:06,600
And now you have two competing 
lines that if he'd been a little

1511
01:21:06,600 --> 01:21:10,520
bit, if he'd been a little bit 
luckier with his children or a 

1512
01:21:10,520 --> 01:21:13,800
little bit more careful about 
which houses he was marrying 

1513
01:21:13,800 --> 01:21:17,440
into and what they were 
expecting from their marriages, 

1514
01:21:17,440 --> 01:21:18,960
that he might have had a better 
time of it. 

1515
01:21:19,280 --> 01:21:22,800
Then we have egg on the 5th, of 
course, make our son who would 

1516
01:21:22,800 --> 01:21:27,480
eventually sit the throne. 
And he had a seemingly good plan

1517
01:21:27,920 --> 01:21:29,880
for marriages. 
He looked like he was going to 

1518
01:21:29,880 --> 01:21:32,760
make a bunch of marriages that 
were going to be good for peace.

1519
01:21:33,240 --> 01:21:36,880
But of course his children all 
refused to accept them. 

1520
01:21:36,880 --> 01:21:38,560
And that caused the opposite 
problem. 

1521
01:21:38,560 --> 01:21:42,080
We all, we had all kinds of 
fallout from eggs, children 

1522
01:21:42,080 --> 01:21:45,040
refusing to marry. 
But that is clearly outside of 

1523
01:21:45,040 --> 01:21:47,640
the scope of this episode. 
But it's good to be reminded of 

1524
01:21:47,640 --> 01:21:49,000
that. 
You can see how many ways this 

1525
01:21:49,000 --> 01:21:52,120
can go now. 
So Ardaron did rely on marriages

1526
01:21:52,120 --> 01:21:55,120
as much as any King Targaryen 
king, as far far as we can tell.

1527
01:21:55,720 --> 01:21:59,080
The piece with Dorn, like I 
said, was built almost entirely 

1528
01:21:59,080 --> 01:22:01,400
on these marriages. 
His own, his sister, Daenerys's,

1529
01:22:01,400 --> 01:22:04,000
and his sons. 
Even though even though his sons

1530
01:22:04,000 --> 01:22:09,080
didn't all marry Dornish people,
they did marry important houses 

1531
01:22:09,080 --> 01:22:11,880
that helped keep the peace. 
So that is our next step here. 

1532
01:22:11,880 --> 01:22:15,640
We're going to work on Part 5. 
But first, a little preamble to 

1533
01:22:15,640 --> 01:22:18,160
that. 
The uneasy peace may have had 

1534
01:22:18,160 --> 01:22:22,000
the opposite effect where it's 
an interesting thing how people 

1535
01:22:22,000 --> 01:22:25,360
don't always want peace and the 
people who didn't want peace who

1536
01:22:25,360 --> 01:22:27,840
were being forced into it, well,
they had somewhere else to go. 

1537
01:22:28,360 --> 01:22:33,720
So we can say that maybe Dorn 
the Damon Deron came out ahead 

1538
01:22:33,720 --> 01:22:35,640
in the long run because the 
peace did stick. 

1539
01:22:35,640 --> 01:22:37,120
We all know where things are 
now. 

1540
01:22:37,120 --> 01:22:43,880
Dorn is a part of the realm, but
did Deron cause or at least 

1541
01:22:43,880 --> 01:22:46,840
exacerbate the problems of the 
Blackfyre rebellions? 

1542
01:22:46,840 --> 01:22:49,320
Because even though Doran stayed
in the realm, there were five 

1543
01:22:49,320 --> 01:22:51,640
generations of Blackfyre 
Rebellions. 

1544
01:22:52,160 --> 01:22:54,800
Yeah, that's a high price. 
So we we're going to have to 

1545
01:22:55,120 --> 01:22:58,200
examine that and see what kind 
of mistakes there on made. 

1546
01:22:58,200 --> 01:23:02,240
After all, the red grass field 
happened 13 years into Deron's 

1547
01:23:02,240 --> 01:23:03,880
reign. 
It's not like it just broke out 

1548
01:23:03,880 --> 01:23:05,840
right away right after Aegon 
died. 

1549
01:23:06,600 --> 01:23:09,640
So that'll be part 5. 
But real quick here, interesting

1550
01:23:09,640 --> 01:23:11,680
segue come up. 
We're we're looking for creative

1551
01:23:11,680 --> 01:23:15,160
ways to help the show become a 
professional endeavor. 

1552
01:23:15,160 --> 01:23:18,240
And this is a maybe a little 
unusual, but it's effective. 

1553
01:23:19,200 --> 01:23:21,120
We have a new way to help the 
show. 

1554
01:23:21,120 --> 01:23:25,400
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If you are a fan of fantasy 

1555
01:23:25,400 --> 01:23:27,640
sports, you can play daily 
fantasy sports. 

1556
01:23:27,640 --> 01:23:30,080
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If you sign up through our link.

1557
01:23:30,080 --> 01:23:34,040
It says play daily DFS, play 
daily fantasy sports with Aziz, 

1558
01:23:34,160 --> 01:23:36,680
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westeros.com's front page. 

1559
01:23:37,240 --> 01:23:40,720
If you sign up, let us know and 
send me an e-mail, send me your 

1560
01:23:40,720 --> 01:23:41,880
username. 
We can play a little, we can 

1561
01:23:41,880 --> 01:23:43,520
play a little one-on-one games 
if you want. 

1562
01:23:43,520 --> 01:23:45,920
It be kind of fun to to compete 
with me for just small stakes, a

1563
01:23:45,920 --> 01:23:48,480
dollar, two dollars, $5, 
whatever fun stuff. 

1564
01:23:48,480 --> 01:23:51,720
Anyway, we get a small cut of 
anyone who signs up through 

1565
01:23:51,720 --> 01:23:52,880
that. 
So that's a good way to support 

1566
01:23:52,880 --> 01:23:58,480
the show if that is your thing. 
But onward, part 5A forced 

1567
01:23:58,480 --> 01:24:00,600
piece. 
This is where things really come

1568
01:24:00,600 --> 01:24:05,000
down because this relationship 
with Dorn is probably the most 

1569
01:24:05,000 --> 01:24:08,480
important factor here. 
We'll we'll see. 

1570
01:24:08,480 --> 01:24:10,800
It's it's it's if it, if it's 
not the most important, it's 

1571
01:24:10,880 --> 01:24:13,560
tied at the top. 
Yes. 

1572
01:24:14,200 --> 01:24:17,040
Quote one of these. 
One of his earliest significant 

1573
01:24:17,040 --> 01:24:20,080
acts after assuming the throne 
was to begin negotiations with 

1574
01:24:20,080 --> 01:24:24,000
his good brother Prince Maron to
unify Dorn under Targaryen rule.

1575
01:24:24,440 --> 01:24:27,960
2 years of negotiation later, an
agreement was reached and when 

1576
01:24:27,960 --> 01:24:31,080
Prince Maron agreed to be 
betrothed to Daron's sister 

1577
01:24:31,080 --> 01:24:34,600
Daenerys once she was of age, 
they were wed the following 

1578
01:24:34,600 --> 01:24:37,160
year. 
And with that marriage, Prince 

1579
01:24:37,280 --> 01:24:40,800
Maron knelt and swore his oaths 
of fealty before the Iron 

1580
01:24:40,800 --> 01:24:42,680
Throne. 
So this period of a forest piece

1581
01:24:42,680 --> 01:24:48,520
we're discussing is the time of 
187 to one. 96187 was the year 

1582
01:24:48,840 --> 01:24:53,080
that Maron married Daenerys. 
So in addition to clearing up 

1583
01:24:53,080 --> 01:24:56,320
his father's corruption as best 
as he could, Daron did through 

1584
01:24:56,320 --> 01:25:00,000
peace what his forebears could 
not accomplish through war. 

1585
01:25:00,000 --> 01:25:03,040
Even when they had Dragons. 
There was much credit given to 

1586
01:25:03,040 --> 01:25:06,280
the Seven Gods and to Baylor the
Blessed, perhaps the man most 

1587
01:25:06,280 --> 01:25:08,440
responsible for breaking the 
cycle of violence and starting 

1588
01:25:08,440 --> 01:25:11,440
this whole ball rolling. 
He started off by marrying our 

1589
01:25:11,440 --> 01:25:14,720
Darren to Princess Mariah, as we
said, and probably expected more

1590
01:25:14,720 --> 01:25:16,120
marriages to seal the piece 
tighter. 

1591
01:25:16,120 --> 01:25:20,560
But Baylor died, you know, 
before he could accomplish a lot

1592
01:25:20,560 --> 01:25:22,040
of these things. 
He wasn't very old. 

1593
01:25:22,680 --> 01:25:25,680
And the next Targaryen Martel 
marriage came, didn't come for 

1594
01:25:25,680 --> 01:25:27,680
another 20 years after Darren's 
marriage. 

1595
01:25:27,680 --> 01:25:30,080
So that was a little probably 
longer than Baylor had in mind, 

1596
01:25:30,400 --> 01:25:35,720
but Darren was very clear as to 
who he credited with this. 

1597
01:25:35,720 --> 01:25:38,320
We have this quote. 
He proclaimed this as soon as 

1598
01:25:38,320 --> 01:25:39,920
the marriage vows were 
completed. 

1599
01:25:40,720 --> 01:25:43,360
They apparently they're on 2nd 
proclaimed quote. 

1600
01:25:43,360 --> 01:25:47,320
Baylor, your work is done. 
And the World of Ice and Fire 

1601
01:25:47,520 --> 01:25:50,760
says that it was a great moment 
at last unifying the realm from 

1602
01:25:50,760 --> 01:25:54,120
wall from the wall to the summer
sea as egg on the Conqueror it 

1603
01:25:54,120 --> 01:25:58,640
once dreamed. 
One of them, the best things 

1604
01:25:58,840 --> 01:26:04,080
symbolically to come out of the 
peace was the Water Garden, 

1605
01:26:04,080 --> 01:26:06,080
something that we are 
experiencing in the in the 

1606
01:26:06,080 --> 01:26:07,480
current series. 
What do you think about the 

1607
01:26:07,480 --> 01:26:09,040
Water Gardens as a symbol, 
Steven? 

1608
01:26:09,080 --> 01:26:12,520
Well, I mean, you know, if you 
think about the Water Gardens 

1609
01:26:12,520 --> 01:26:18,080
are a symbol of peace. 
They are a symbol of, I mean, if

1610
01:26:18,080 --> 01:26:20,680
you think about it sort of 
prosperity or bounty. 

1611
01:26:20,680 --> 01:26:24,760
I mean, especially in a desert 
climate, to have not just sort 

1612
01:26:24,760 --> 01:26:29,000
of water available, but so bout 
sort of plentiful that you can 

1613
01:26:29,000 --> 01:26:32,160
use it for something other than 
drinking or, you know, keeping 

1614
01:26:32,160 --> 01:26:34,480
crops alive. 
Yeah. 

1615
01:26:34,560 --> 01:26:38,560
You know, and it's it's even a 
symbol of of equality that, you 

1616
01:26:38,560 --> 01:26:41,360
know, we have this quote from 
from Daenerys Targaryen in which

1617
01:26:41,600 --> 01:26:44,440
she says to her son and heir, 
you know, this is your realm. 

1618
01:26:44,440 --> 01:26:47,640
Remember them in everything you 
do, because when children are 

1619
01:26:47,640 --> 01:26:50,520
running around naked, you can't 
tell who's a high born and who's

1620
01:26:50,520 --> 01:26:52,000
a low born. 
I love that little. 

1621
01:26:52,000 --> 01:26:56,440
I love that little tidbit. 
Doran Martel's a good guy, but 

1622
01:26:56,440 --> 01:27:01,440
meanwhile Daron had a a peaceful
sort of symbolic building 

1623
01:27:01,440 --> 01:27:04,720
project of his own in the works.
I wouldn't say it's a, a, a 

1624
01:27:04,720 --> 01:27:08,240
parallel to the Water Gardens, 
but it is in a sense mostly 

1625
01:27:08,240 --> 01:27:10,720
because it was built for a 
similar purpose kind of to mark 

1626
01:27:10,720 --> 01:27:13,640
the piece. 
And it was also built around the

1627
01:27:13,640 --> 01:27:16,520
same time. 
It's not normally what you think

1628
01:27:16,520 --> 01:27:18,200
of though when you hear the name
Summerhall. 

1629
01:27:18,200 --> 01:27:20,920
That was its original intent. 
It's kind of now you think of 

1630
01:27:20,920 --> 01:27:22,000
Summerhall. 
It's like, whoa, this great 

1631
01:27:22,000 --> 01:27:26,600
tragedy, this great mystery is 
trying to rehash Dragons and the

1632
01:27:26,600 --> 01:27:29,520
deaths of some really important 
historical figures. 

1633
01:27:29,800 --> 01:27:33,160
But originally it was a, a place
of peace. 

1634
01:27:33,160 --> 01:27:34,600
It's a palace, not really a 
castle. 

1635
01:27:34,600 --> 01:27:37,640
We have this, we have this quote
here when it was completed in 

1636
01:27:37,640 --> 01:27:42,240
188, a year after the marriage, 
Deron grazed a great grazed. 

1637
01:27:43,560 --> 01:27:46,600
Deron was also a horse. 
Deron raised a great seat in the

1638
01:27:46,600 --> 01:27:49,600
Dornish Marches, near to where 
the boundaries of the Reach, the

1639
01:27:49,600 --> 01:27:53,400
Stormlands and Dorn met, calling
it Summer Hall to mark the peace

1640
01:27:53,400 --> 01:27:56,200
he had created. 
It was more palace than castle 

1641
01:27:56,200 --> 01:27:59,920
and lightly fortified at best. 
So he's got a palace, a peace, 

1642
01:28:00,200 --> 01:28:03,160
marriages, children. 
Things are looking pretty good 

1643
01:28:03,160 --> 01:28:05,640
for Deron, but as we know, 
things went wrong. 

1644
01:28:06,320 --> 01:28:09,160
Basically every single one of 
these positive things we just 

1645
01:28:09,160 --> 01:28:10,360
talked about had a negative 
side. 

1646
01:28:10,360 --> 01:28:13,280
They all had a downside. 
Nothing went over perfectly. 

1647
01:28:13,880 --> 01:28:17,960
Starting with this quote. 
However, Prince Maron had won a 

1648
01:28:17,960 --> 01:28:21,560
few concessions in the accord, 
and the Lords of Doran held 

1649
01:28:21,560 --> 01:28:24,040
significant rights and 
privileges that the other Great 

1650
01:28:24,040 --> 01:28:26,600
Houses did not. 
The right to keep their royal 

1651
01:28:26,600 --> 01:28:30,040
title first among them, but also
the autonomy to maintain their 

1652
01:28:30,040 --> 01:28:32,320
own laws. 
The right to assess and gather 

1653
01:28:32,320 --> 01:28:35,320
the taxes due to the Iron 
Throne, with only irregular 

1654
01:28:35,320 --> 01:28:38,440
oversight from the Red Keep and 
other for such matters. 

1655
01:28:38,680 --> 01:28:41,840
Dissatisfaction at these 
concessions was one of the seeds

1656
01:28:41,840 --> 01:28:45,080
from which the first Black Fire 
rebellion sprang, as was the 

1657
01:28:45,080 --> 01:28:48,560
belief that Dorne held too much 
influence over the King for 

1658
01:28:48,560 --> 01:28:50,440
Darren. 
The second brought many Dornish 

1659
01:28:50,440 --> 01:28:54,160
men to his court, some of whom 
were granted offices of note. 

1660
01:28:54,920 --> 01:28:57,920
So a lot of people hate the 
Dornish and the Dornish get to 

1661
01:28:57,920 --> 01:29:00,920
marry into the royal family and 
they get special treatment and 

1662
01:29:00,920 --> 01:29:03,440
running the realm. 
This tale of disgruntledment 

1663
01:29:03,440 --> 01:29:05,320
kind of sells itself. 
It's kind of obvious to see why 

1664
01:29:05,320 --> 01:29:07,680
some of these Lords were so 
upset. 

1665
01:29:08,320 --> 01:29:10,800
So that's when we really start 
to question Darren. 

1666
01:29:10,800 --> 01:29:13,920
Do you think that he shouldn't 
have allowed this special 

1667
01:29:13,920 --> 01:29:15,080
treatment? 
See what do you do? 

1668
01:29:15,120 --> 01:29:18,400
You think this was a mistake on 
his part or was it necessary to 

1669
01:29:18,400 --> 01:29:20,840
get Dorn in the realm? 
Or I mean, I think offering 

1670
01:29:20,840 --> 01:29:23,200
concessions was necessary to 
give them to Dorn. 

1671
01:29:23,200 --> 01:29:27,480
I think the mistake was more not
spreading it around, more that 

1672
01:29:27,480 --> 01:29:31,760
if he had given these 
concessions to other Lords 

1673
01:29:31,760 --> 01:29:36,600
Paramount and other Lords in 
general, you know, or, you know,

1674
01:29:36,600 --> 01:29:39,000
not necessarily just sort of 
doing it blanket across the 

1675
01:29:39,000 --> 01:29:41,280
Kingdom because that's a lot of 
power getting away. 

1676
01:29:41,680 --> 01:29:44,560
But, you know, if he'd at least 
kind of held it out as a quid 

1677
01:29:44,560 --> 01:29:48,240
pro quo that he could have kind 
of allowed people to see that 

1678
01:29:48,240 --> 01:29:52,440
this, this new sort of status is
something that they themselves 

1679
01:29:52,440 --> 01:29:55,560
can have. 
You know, there's an old quote 

1680
01:29:55,960 --> 01:29:59,680
from LBJ that it's always better
to have someone inside the tent 

1681
01:29:59,680 --> 01:30:02,040
pissing out than outside the 
tent pissing in. 

1682
01:30:02,440 --> 01:30:05,440
I think that's kind of the 
problem is that, you know, it's,

1683
01:30:05,480 --> 01:30:08,760
it's not that making these, 
these agreements was necessarily

1684
01:30:08,760 --> 01:30:10,800
a bad thing. 
It's that when you restrict it 

1685
01:30:11,040 --> 01:30:14,680
to just one group of people, it 
means that only that group of 

1686
01:30:14,680 --> 01:30:16,520
people are going to be your 
allies. 

1687
01:30:16,680 --> 01:30:18,760
And everyone else now has a 
grievance. 

1688
01:30:19,280 --> 01:30:21,880
That's a very good point. 
So he probably drove away some 

1689
01:30:21,880 --> 01:30:24,440
of his some of those people that
came to his camp either because 

1690
01:30:24,440 --> 01:30:27,200
of his father being crappy or 
because they just wanted to 

1691
01:30:27,680 --> 01:30:29,760
attach themselves to the future 
king. 

1692
01:30:30,120 --> 01:30:33,120
He may have driven some of them 
away by setting the Dornish 

1693
01:30:33,120 --> 01:30:36,480
above them and by by some of his
other behaviors. 

1694
01:30:36,480 --> 01:30:40,760
We have this we we mentioned the
the aspect of him having quote 

1695
01:30:40,760 --> 01:30:44,720
too much Dornish influence at 
one quote on that going beyond 

1696
01:30:44,720 --> 01:30:46,960
that, it wasn't just that he had
too many Dornish people around, 

1697
01:30:47,680 --> 01:30:51,160
quote Darren surrounded himself 
with maesters, septons and 

1698
01:30:51,160 --> 01:30:53,640
singers. 
We've all heard that before. 

1699
01:30:53,640 --> 01:30:56,600
That's not who kings are 
supposed to surround themselves 

1700
01:30:56,600 --> 01:30:58,240
with. 
That's not what I mean. 

1701
01:30:58,320 --> 01:31:01,760
I'm using the word supposed in 
terms of what Westerosi a want. 

1702
01:31:01,840 --> 01:31:06,400
You know, obviously personally I
think that's cool, but from a 

1703
01:31:06,400 --> 01:31:09,400
point of view of the Lords and 
Knights of Westeros, that's just

1704
01:31:09,840 --> 01:31:12,440
unmasculine. 
It's not kingly to do these sort

1705
01:31:12,440 --> 01:31:13,560
of things. 
And so that was. 

1706
01:31:14,000 --> 01:31:17,200
And I think the larger, the 
larger problem is that it means 

1707
01:31:17,200 --> 01:31:21,600
that no one has a lot of people 
among the Lords and Knights 

1708
01:31:21,600 --> 01:31:24,000
don't have a vested interest in 
his monarchy. 

1709
01:31:24,000 --> 01:31:26,400
Yes. 
And, and this is where I sort of

1710
01:31:26,400 --> 01:31:30,880
see a, a parallel with Jon Snow,
which is they're both pushing a,

1711
01:31:30,960 --> 01:31:34,560
a, a sort of a revolution in 
thinking, You know, John is 

1712
01:31:34,560 --> 01:31:37,440
trying to bring in the wild 
Wings, Darren is trying to bring

1713
01:31:37,440 --> 01:31:39,480
in the Dornish. 
It's kind of both ends of the 

1714
01:31:39,480 --> 01:31:43,480
Kingdom, if you were. 
But what they're not doing is 

1715
01:31:43,480 --> 01:31:47,760
building a constituency around 
the, you know, a majority 

1716
01:31:47,760 --> 01:31:50,480
coalition in support of these 
reforms. 

1717
01:31:50,760 --> 01:31:54,080
You know that if you had brought
in, you know, yes, obviously, 

1718
01:31:54,120 --> 01:31:57,200
you know, if Dorn is now going 
to be part of the realm, they 

1719
01:31:57,200 --> 01:31:58,920
need to see it on the small 
council. 

1720
01:31:59,400 --> 01:32:02,320
But why not give a seat in the 
small council to the Tyrells? 

1721
01:32:02,320 --> 01:32:04,560
Why not give a seat to the 
Lannisters? 

1722
01:32:04,560 --> 01:32:06,760
Why not, you know, bring it, you
know, or the Aaron's? 

1723
01:32:06,760 --> 01:32:11,600
Why not bring in more of the 
realm who have a vested interest

1724
01:32:11,600 --> 01:32:15,760
in this new order of things 
continuing as opposed to leaving

1725
01:32:15,760 --> 01:32:19,520
them outside with nothing to 
gain from this? 

1726
01:32:19,960 --> 01:32:23,040
I agree with that and let's 
let's take it a step further 

1727
01:32:23,040 --> 01:32:26,360
here. 
A main point of favor it's get 

1728
01:32:26,360 --> 01:32:29,400
it's considered a positive 
thing, and I wouldn't entirely I

1729
01:32:29,400 --> 01:32:33,840
would mostly agree with this is 
that quote without that rather 

1730
01:32:33,840 --> 01:32:37,080
the Darren brought Doran into 
the realm quote without the 

1731
01:32:37,080 --> 01:32:39,720
terrible cost of life that 
Darren the second's namesake, 

1732
01:32:39,720 --> 01:32:42,640
the young dragon had paid. 
But there's a problem with this 

1733
01:32:42,640 --> 01:32:45,320
interpretation. 
Like Steven just said, the piece

1734
01:32:45,320 --> 01:32:49,280
didn't completely work. 
And we titled, That's why we 

1735
01:32:49,280 --> 01:32:53,000
titled this part a forced piece 
because there were far too many 

1736
01:32:53,000 --> 01:32:56,560
who just didn't want it. 
That large number of Lords, 

1737
01:32:56,560 --> 01:32:59,920
Knights and others, quote, began
to look more and more to the 

1738
01:32:59,920 --> 01:33:03,720
quote, old days when Dornish men
were the enemy to fight, not 

1739
01:33:03,720 --> 01:33:05,880
rivals for the King's attention 
or largesse. 

1740
01:33:05,880 --> 01:33:07,680
On the other hand, yeah, go 
ahead. 

1741
01:33:07,840 --> 01:33:10,480
Well, I, I was just going to 
say, and I, I write about this 

1742
01:33:10,480 --> 01:33:13,320
in, in the first essay I did on 
the blacks and Reds, which is 

1743
01:33:13,520 --> 01:33:17,440
that huge cost of life that 
Darren the first had had 

1744
01:33:17,440 --> 01:33:20,560
incurred. 
Those are people's relatives. 

1745
01:33:20,560 --> 01:33:23,040
Those are their fathers and 
their brothers and their uncles 

1746
01:33:23,040 --> 01:33:27,280
and their cousins. 
And with a peace that's kind of 

1747
01:33:27,280 --> 01:33:30,880
so on one side, you know, in 
terms, I mean, you know, the 

1748
01:33:30,880 --> 01:33:33,080
Targaryens get a lot out of the 
peace. 

1749
01:33:33,320 --> 01:33:37,200
No one else really does. 
And so there's no sort of 

1750
01:33:37,200 --> 01:33:40,840
reckoning for these losses. 
There's no kind of way for 

1751
01:33:40,840 --> 01:33:42,520
people to grieve and deal with 
it. 

1752
01:33:42,560 --> 01:33:44,760
And, you know, I, I think of, 
you know, look at all the 

1753
01:33:44,760 --> 01:33:48,720
violence that happened during 
the War of 5 Kings, you know, 

1754
01:33:49,400 --> 01:33:52,640
people aren't ready to make 
peace on that unless there's 

1755
01:33:52,640 --> 01:33:56,120
some way of making sense of 
those debts, unless there's 

1756
01:33:56,120 --> 01:33:59,520
something that they can sort of 
look to, to say, this is what my

1757
01:33:59,520 --> 01:34:02,440
relative, you know, my, my 
father, my son, my brother, 

1758
01:34:02,440 --> 01:34:06,360
whatever that they died for. 
And this is what gives their 

1759
01:34:06,360 --> 01:34:09,160
life mean. 
And I think that's where Darren 

1760
01:34:09,240 --> 01:34:14,760
screwed up is that he didn't, he
didn't give them an 

1761
01:34:14,760 --> 01:34:17,960
understanding of the world that 
they could use to help them 

1762
01:34:17,960 --> 01:34:20,480
grieve. 
That makes sense now. 

1763
01:34:21,440 --> 01:34:24,600
So we're like we're saying a lot
of the things that Darren did, 

1764
01:34:24,600 --> 01:34:26,520
they had a downside or they 
turned bad. 

1765
01:34:26,520 --> 01:34:28,920
Summerhall, of course, is a 
perfect example of that was 

1766
01:34:29,040 --> 01:34:31,680
entirely out of his control. 
We don't, we can't blame him for

1767
01:34:31,680 --> 01:34:34,680
that. 
But the other thing about these 

1768
01:34:34,680 --> 01:34:37,800
marriages, we're going to talk 
about his his, his sons in 

1769
01:34:37,800 --> 01:34:40,240
particular, his strategy with 
who he married them to. 

1770
01:34:40,640 --> 01:34:44,000
The thing that is apparent with 
all of them was that that none 

1771
01:34:44,000 --> 01:34:45,640
of them were Targaryen style 
marriages. 

1772
01:34:45,640 --> 01:34:47,160
And there's probably 2 reasons 
for this. 

1773
01:34:47,400 --> 01:34:50,400
He may have been against the 
incest tradition in the 1st 

1774
01:34:50,400 --> 01:34:53,760
place because we see that with a
lot of the pious Targaryen 

1775
01:34:53,760 --> 01:34:55,960
kings, because they follow the 
Seven and the Seven are very 

1776
01:34:55,960 --> 01:35:00,120
against incest. 
But also there's the politics 

1777
01:35:00,120 --> 01:35:02,680
you don't get. 
There's no political advantage 

1778
01:35:03,000 --> 01:35:04,760
by marrying your children to 
each other. 

1779
01:35:05,120 --> 01:35:06,720
They could get away with that a 
lot more when they had the 

1780
01:35:06,720 --> 01:35:08,560
Dragons and they didn't have to 
worry about the political 

1781
01:35:08,560 --> 01:35:11,400
advantages as much. 
But now that's such a constant 

1782
01:35:11,400 --> 01:35:14,880
consideration as we see later in
the Targaryen line, they went 

1783
01:35:14,880 --> 01:35:17,600
back to the brother sister 
marriage, but this was kind of 

1784
01:35:17,600 --> 01:35:20,840
an era where that was done less.
So let's take a look at some of 

1785
01:35:20,840 --> 01:35:24,600
these things, some of these 
marriages and his, his, his 

1786
01:35:24,600 --> 01:35:29,680
strategy for these very 
specifically the as well as some

1787
01:35:29,680 --> 01:35:33,400
of the things that are given up 
by going this route. 

1788
01:35:33,400 --> 01:35:36,840
For one thing, there's this this
elevated status thing that they 

1789
01:35:36,840 --> 01:35:39,960
fall off with. 
Before it was like a weird kind 

1790
01:35:39,960 --> 01:35:43,680
of duality where the most of the
people in the realm are against 

1791
01:35:43,680 --> 01:35:45,960
incest, yet the Targaryens were 
allowed to get away with it 

1792
01:35:45,960 --> 01:35:49,040
because they're the Targaryens. 
That's everyone just kind of saw

1793
01:35:49,040 --> 01:35:50,720
it that way. 
They're above everyone else. 

1794
01:35:50,720 --> 01:35:53,400
They're kind of like demigods. 
Maron was kind of giving that 

1795
01:35:53,400 --> 01:35:54,640
up. 
He was kind of setting that 

1796
01:35:54,640 --> 01:35:57,800
aside and that kind of made the 
Targaryens a little more human, 

1797
01:35:57,800 --> 01:36:00,680
which kind of undermine and. 
Especially when you lose. 

1798
01:36:00,920 --> 01:36:02,840
Especially when you lose the 
Targaryen. 

1799
01:36:02,840 --> 01:36:06,760
Look, yes, that's huge. 
That, you know, the marrying 

1800
01:36:06,760 --> 01:36:10,120
brother to sister, I mean, that 
was that used to be done to sort

1801
01:36:10,120 --> 01:36:12,840
of keep the whole dragon riding 
magic thing going. 

1802
01:36:13,560 --> 01:36:17,280
But now it's got a role to play 
in that the symbols of, you 

1803
01:36:17,280 --> 01:36:22,440
know, white hair and purple eyes
are now symbols of royalty, and 

1804
01:36:22,440 --> 01:36:24,000
you're kind of losing that a 
little bit. 

1805
01:36:24,400 --> 01:36:29,880
That is true. 
And it's also looking at the 

1806
01:36:29,880 --> 01:36:33,800
other side of this. 
You see Damon this this also 

1807
01:36:33,800 --> 01:36:37,960
just pushes more people towards 
Damon blackfire because a Damon 

1808
01:36:37,960 --> 01:36:41,400
has the symbol of blackfire very
a a symbol that gains so much 

1809
01:36:41,400 --> 01:36:44,840
more in value without the 
Dragons and without with the 

1810
01:36:44,840 --> 01:36:46,360
Targaryen look having more 
meaning. 

1811
01:36:46,360 --> 01:36:50,200
So the Blackfire is just so much
more important than it used to 

1812
01:36:50,200 --> 01:36:53,680
be. 
And it's Damon's already kind of

1813
01:36:53,680 --> 01:36:56,200
got that above demigod thing 
going for him. 

1814
01:36:56,200 --> 01:36:58,000
He's got the Targaryen look. 
The Warrior. 

1815
01:36:58,240 --> 01:37:03,400
The freaking, you know, Adonis, 
you know, abilities and and look

1816
01:37:03,400 --> 01:37:05,560
and all that. 
So and he's the product of 

1817
01:37:05,560 --> 01:37:08,120
incest too, even though his 
parents weren't married. 

1818
01:37:09,120 --> 01:37:13,200
So it's weird how he's a bad 
this guy actually, it's weird 

1819
01:37:13,200 --> 01:37:16,320
how that guy actually play to 
his advantage in Damon's case 

1820
01:37:16,320 --> 01:37:18,240
and against Aaron, the incest 
thing. 

1821
01:37:18,240 --> 01:37:19,480
It's it's it's kind of 
backwards. 

1822
01:37:20,120 --> 01:37:23,280
So, but speaking to what you 
said about the look as well, 

1823
01:37:23,680 --> 01:37:25,480
it's like a the future could be 
seen. 

1824
01:37:25,480 --> 01:37:27,840
Baylor breaks beer didn't look 
Targaryen. 

1825
01:37:27,840 --> 01:37:30,560
Baylor's sons didn't look 
Targaryen. 

1826
01:37:30,560 --> 01:37:33,800
Baylor's eldest son was Valar 
and valor had a little streak of

1827
01:37:33,800 --> 01:37:36,000
silver, kind of like dark Star 
almost. 

1828
01:37:36,160 --> 01:37:39,400
But that was the only real nod 
to his Targaryen look. 

1829
01:37:39,400 --> 01:37:42,160
Oh. 
God, not more, not not more. 

1830
01:37:42,160 --> 01:37:45,000
Secret Targaryen we've got, I do
not believe. 

1831
01:37:45,000 --> 01:37:47,200
For the record, I not believe 
Dark Star is a secret Targaryen 

1832
01:37:47,200 --> 01:37:50,040
but but a Valor had. 
I believe Valor also only had 

1833
01:37:50,120 --> 01:37:53,240
blue eyes, so he he really just 
the Targaryen look was kind of 

1834
01:37:53,240 --> 01:37:57,840
fading, but it ended up going 
through Makar after all, and 

1835
01:37:57,840 --> 01:38:00,760
that kind of kept the gold, 
silver and purple going. 

1836
01:38:01,120 --> 01:38:04,320
So let's look at these marriages
specifically though, first of 

1837
01:38:04,320 --> 01:38:06,320
all. 
So, so Darren's strategy was 

1838
01:38:06,320 --> 01:38:11,480
kind of a mix of marrying his 
sons to important Dornish houses

1839
01:38:11,480 --> 01:38:15,960
and to Marcher houses or other 
houses that were important to 

1840
01:38:15,960 --> 01:38:17,800
him. 
But you can kind of see a bit of

1841
01:38:17,800 --> 01:38:19,840
a funny pattern. 
Baylor and Makar were the kind 

1842
01:38:19,840 --> 01:38:22,280
of the choice sons. 
Baylor because he's the heir and

1843
01:38:22,280 --> 01:38:25,240
because he's a great fighter, 
and Makar because he's a great 

1844
01:38:25,240 --> 01:38:28,720
fighter. 
And look, Targaryen, so Baylor 

1845
01:38:28,720 --> 01:38:31,560
was married to Jenna Dondarian, 
A Dondarian. 

1846
01:38:31,560 --> 01:38:34,760
Now the Dondarians, of course, 
are an ancient marcher house 

1847
01:38:34,760 --> 01:38:37,440
that have been fighting the 
Dornish for thousands of years. 

1848
01:38:37,440 --> 01:38:41,000
So by giving his air to the 
marchers, he was saying, hey, 

1849
01:38:41,000 --> 01:38:45,880
look, I'm balancing this out. 
I'm married to the Dornish, but 

1850
01:38:45,880 --> 01:38:48,760
my son here is married to the 
ancient Dornish enemy. 

1851
01:38:48,760 --> 01:38:50,640
So that was probably a good 
decision, don't you? 

1852
01:38:50,640 --> 01:38:54,640
Think, yeah, no, that makes 
sense as a a balancing act. 

1853
01:38:54,640 --> 01:38:56,560
It's again, it's building the 
coalition. 

1854
01:38:57,280 --> 01:38:59,920
Right. 
And then we also have Makar was 

1855
01:38:59,920 --> 01:39:03,560
married to Diana Dane. 
So Makar was married to a Dane. 

1856
01:39:03,560 --> 01:39:05,760
That was a great revelation from
the World of Ice and Fire. 

1857
01:39:05,840 --> 01:39:10,360
And we don't know it what Diana 
looked like, but she probably 

1858
01:39:10,360 --> 01:39:13,640
looked like a the the Danes tend
to look at least somewhat 

1859
01:39:13,640 --> 01:39:17,120
Targaryen, not as extreme, but 
but they have the purple eyes 

1860
01:39:17,120 --> 01:39:19,160
frequently. 
They have the, you know, maybe 

1861
01:39:19,160 --> 01:39:25,280
not silver gold hair, but like 
ash and, you know, honey colors 

1862
01:39:25,280 --> 01:39:29,080
like the milder versions of 
silver and gold, which is 

1863
01:39:29,080 --> 01:39:32,240
interesting because make our 
first born son didn't look 

1864
01:39:32,240 --> 01:39:36,200
terribly Targaryen. 
He had sandy hair and a blonde 

1865
01:39:36,200 --> 01:39:39,240
beard, but he definitely had the
dragon dreams. 

1866
01:39:39,240 --> 01:39:42,560
So he was he. 
Yeah, but it did, it did work 

1867
01:39:42,560 --> 01:39:48,520
out for, you know, Egg and Arion
certainly do have the full 

1868
01:39:48,720 --> 01:39:50,880
Targaryen look. 
That's true, yes. 

1869
01:39:51,040 --> 01:39:56,240
So the the the genetics mostly 
stayed strongly Targaryen, but 

1870
01:39:57,160 --> 01:39:58,640
we don't want to get too deep 
into that. 

1871
01:39:58,960 --> 01:40:02,360
We but the point being that 
Darren was very aware of how at 

1872
01:40:02,880 --> 01:40:06,440
least maybe not very aware, but 
at least somewhat aware of how 

1873
01:40:06,680 --> 01:40:09,640
some of these people would get 
upset based on these new 

1874
01:40:09,640 --> 01:40:11,200
alliances and how he had to 
balance it out. 

1875
01:40:11,400 --> 01:40:14,200
So I would say that. 
He. 

1876
01:40:14,240 --> 01:40:16,280
Had the right idea, but he 
didn't go far enough. 

1877
01:40:16,280 --> 01:40:18,880
Like you said, he didn't bring 
the Tyrells to the table, he 

1878
01:40:18,880 --> 01:40:20,200
didn't bring the Lannisters to 
the table. 

1879
01:40:20,200 --> 01:40:23,400
He he did bring some of these 
people to the table, but not 

1880
01:40:23,400 --> 01:40:24,080
enough. 
Right. 

1881
01:40:24,080 --> 01:40:27,240
And if you look at these houses,
they're not great houses. 

1882
01:40:27,240 --> 01:40:29,760
They're I, I don't mean that 
they suck. 

1883
01:40:29,760 --> 01:40:33,800
I mean, they are lesser houses, 
the Dondarians, the Penroses 

1884
01:40:33,800 --> 01:40:37,120
that the Danes are, with the 
exception of the Aaron's, who we

1885
01:40:37,120 --> 01:40:40,760
haven't talked about yet. 
He's not, you know, if you, he's

1886
01:40:40,760 --> 01:40:44,320
not reaching very high, if you 
get the, the Tyrells on your 

1887
01:40:44,320 --> 01:40:48,560
side, if you get, you know, the,
the Lannisters on your side, 

1888
01:40:48,960 --> 01:40:52,720
those are houses that can bring 
10s of thousands of soldiers. 

1889
01:40:52,720 --> 01:40:56,960
They have, you know, they, they 
speak with a, a, a, a powerful 

1890
01:40:56,960 --> 01:41:01,520
voice in great councils. 
So, you know, he's not kind of 

1891
01:41:02,320 --> 01:41:06,360
he's having a regional impact. 
He's not having a national 

1892
01:41:06,360 --> 01:41:09,600
impact for the most part. 
I mean, the the Erin marriage 

1893
01:41:09,600 --> 01:41:11,880
aside, I think that's the kind 
of the one exception. 

1894
01:41:11,880 --> 01:41:14,880
That's where he he really does 
kind of strike lucky. 

1895
01:41:15,440 --> 01:41:17,440
That's a good point. 
The next two marriages were to 

1896
01:41:17,440 --> 01:41:21,440
his less impressive sons. 
Aries was married to Eleanor 

1897
01:41:21,440 --> 01:41:25,760
Penrose and Regal was married 
to, I forget which, Aaron. 

1898
01:41:25,760 --> 01:41:28,200
But Alice I. 
Think Alice yes, you're right, 

1899
01:41:28,200 --> 01:41:32,320
Alice, Aaron and but we're not 
sure that those marriages 

1900
01:41:32,320 --> 01:41:34,800
actually happened before the red
grass field. 

1901
01:41:35,360 --> 01:41:40,720
A bunch of Penroses died. 
All but one child, male child of

1902
01:41:40,720 --> 01:41:42,680
the Penrose has died during the 
red grass field. 

1903
01:41:42,680 --> 01:41:46,960
So we're more maybe leaning 
towards the idea that they got 

1904
01:41:46,960 --> 01:41:49,400
the marriage to Aries kind of as
a reward. 

1905
01:41:49,560 --> 01:41:53,520
But also we know that Eleanor, 
Eleanor Penrose, who married 

1906
01:41:53,520 --> 01:41:57,160
Aries was Aries's cousin, 
although we're not exactly sure 

1907
01:41:57,160 --> 01:41:58,920
how. 
That's a whole other thing that 

1908
01:41:58,920 --> 01:42:04,360
we don't want to get into. 
But it's it's deeper than that 

1909
01:42:04,960 --> 01:42:08,160
with Aaron, with the Aaron 
marriage, like we said, Regal, 

1910
01:42:08,160 --> 01:42:12,760
they get the Aaron's get this 
crazy Targaryen Prince, which is

1911
01:42:12,760 --> 01:42:14,480
nice. 
I guess maybe not there. 

1912
01:42:14,480 --> 01:42:16,640
He wouldn't have been their 
first pick, but considering the 

1913
01:42:16,640 --> 01:42:18,720
Aaron's were already hyper 
loyal, I guess they didn't need 

1914
01:42:18,720 --> 01:42:22,880
to have, you know, this shining 
star Prince as they're, you 

1915
01:42:22,880 --> 01:42:25,480
know, brought in their family. 
But this like I said, this 

1916
01:42:25,480 --> 01:42:26,560
marriage could have happened 
after the. 

1917
01:42:26,560 --> 01:42:28,400
Regret, yeah. 
And and they're already kin to 

1918
01:42:28,400 --> 01:42:30,840
begin with. 
So it's sort of, you know, 

1919
01:42:31,600 --> 01:42:36,040
they're they're to a certain 
extent they are less, they're 

1920
01:42:36,040 --> 01:42:38,600
less up for grabs. 
They're they're not exactly free

1921
01:42:38,600 --> 01:42:41,000
agents. 
So you can sort of they they 

1922
01:42:41,000 --> 01:42:43,960
don't you don't need to woo them
as much as you might other 

1923
01:42:43,960 --> 01:42:46,400
house. 
So, but there's this, this is 

1924
01:42:46,480 --> 01:42:47,920
kind of this overwhelming 
sentiment. 

1925
01:42:48,000 --> 01:42:49,280
We'll actually be back up for a 
second. 

1926
01:42:49,280 --> 01:42:53,400
Makar definitely married Diana 
Dane before the black, before 

1927
01:42:53,400 --> 01:42:54,920
the red grass field. 
We know that much. 

1928
01:42:55,120 --> 01:42:59,080
And the Danes were probably 
somewhat important and made the 

1929
01:42:59,080 --> 01:43:02,000
color their coloration may have 
had a may have been played part 

1930
01:43:02,000 --> 01:43:04,320
of the role in that decision. 
But the Danes are a fairly 

1931
01:43:04,320 --> 01:43:07,080
important house in Doran and 
they're on the other side of 

1932
01:43:07,240 --> 01:43:10,520
Doran from the Martels may have 
been a regional thing going on 

1933
01:43:10,520 --> 01:43:12,360
and they want to make sure they 
have that area covered. 

1934
01:43:12,800 --> 01:43:16,760
But for that reason, we're, you 
know, 99% sure that the Danes 

1935
01:43:16,760 --> 01:43:19,480
fought for Deron during the 
during the war. 

1936
01:43:20,880 --> 01:43:25,560
But just like we talked about 
how there's the Selmies and the 

1937
01:43:25,560 --> 01:43:29,000
Karens and the Don, like before 
the Dondarians got married to 

1938
01:43:29,000 --> 01:43:32,120
Deron, all these other marcher 
houses that just hate the 

1939
01:43:32,120 --> 01:43:33,600
Dornish, they don't want to stop
fighting them. 

1940
01:43:33,600 --> 01:43:35,480
They're not thrilled with this 
idea. 

1941
01:43:36,440 --> 01:43:38,920
Hear them think, hear them 
saying things like, if I can't 

1942
01:43:38,920 --> 01:43:41,000
fight the Dornish, how will I 
earn glory? 

1943
01:43:41,000 --> 01:43:43,880
All their ancestors are. 
There's so many other ancestors 

1944
01:43:43,880 --> 01:43:46,600
that are famous, they're known 
that have songs sung about them 

1945
01:43:46,600 --> 01:43:50,000
because they fought the Dornish.
This is a complete like 

1946
01:43:50,000 --> 01:43:52,240
thousands of years of lifestyle 
that they're just giving up. 

1947
01:43:52,240 --> 01:43:54,800
They're they're losing it. 
We have this quote here from 

1948
01:43:54,960 --> 01:43:58,000
Arias Oakhart. 
He was a man of the Reach, and 

1949
01:43:58,000 --> 01:43:59,720
the Darnish were his ancient 
foes. 

1950
01:43:59,720 --> 01:44:04,160
As the tapestries at Old Oak, 
Old Oak bore witness, Aries only

1951
01:44:04,160 --> 01:44:06,000
had to close his eyes to see 
them still. 

1952
01:44:06,280 --> 01:44:09,240
Lord Edger and the open Handed 
seated in splendor with the 

1953
01:44:09,240 --> 01:44:11,640
heads of 100 Dornish men piled 
around his feet. 

1954
01:44:11,880 --> 01:44:15,520
The three leaves in the Prince's
Pass pierced by Dornish Spears. 

1955
01:44:15,520 --> 01:44:18,320
Alistair sounding his war horn 
with his last breath. 

1956
01:44:18,640 --> 01:44:22,240
Sir Olivar, the green oak all in
white, dying at the side of the 

1957
01:44:22,240 --> 01:44:25,560
young dragon. 
Dorn is no fit place for any oak

1958
01:44:25,560 --> 01:44:27,800
heart. 
Perfect example of how even 

1959
01:44:28,080 --> 01:44:31,200
without the pieces. 
Hundreds of years old. 120 ish 

1960
01:44:31,200 --> 01:44:35,880
years old that there's these 
memories are still very strong 

1961
01:44:35,880 --> 01:44:38,160
in the minds of these of these 
families that that lived through

1962
01:44:38,160 --> 01:44:40,720
all this. 
Yeah, and you know, and we can 

1963
01:44:40,720 --> 01:44:43,760
see some, some reals here. 
I mean, especially Alistair 

1964
01:44:43,760 --> 01:44:45,840
sounding the war horn with his 
last breath. 

1965
01:44:45,840 --> 01:44:51,600
I mean, that's, that's a pretty 
clear parallel to Roland and the

1966
01:44:51,600 --> 01:44:54,680
the Chancellor de Roland and 
which again, that's about a 

1967
01:44:54,680 --> 01:44:59,360
battle in the mountains between,
you know, France and Spain, 

1968
01:44:59,360 --> 01:45:02,920
which at the time, you know, 
was, was under the, the control 

1969
01:45:02,920 --> 01:45:05,520
of the Moorish. 
So, you know, there is that kind

1970
01:45:05,520 --> 01:45:10,120
of historic, you know, 
resemblance going on. 

1971
01:45:10,360 --> 01:45:12,920
Yeah, George is certainly a fan 
of history, and it shows through

1972
01:45:12,920 --> 01:45:14,120
things like this. 
There's all these little things 

1973
01:45:14,120 --> 01:45:17,680
that bleed through. 
And Speaking of, of, of in world

1974
01:45:17,680 --> 01:45:20,080
history, though, we have another
character that everyone knows. 

1975
01:45:20,080 --> 01:45:24,600
Prince Oberyn Martel had his own
quote relating to these ancient 

1976
01:45:24,600 --> 01:45:26,640
grievances. 
That is, I think is is 

1977
01:45:26,640 --> 01:45:29,400
illuminating. 
It goes like this in Dorn of 

1978
01:45:29,400 --> 01:45:32,840
old, before we married Daron, it
was said that all flowers bow 

1979
01:45:32,840 --> 01:45:35,600
before the sun. 
Should the roses seek to hinder 

1980
01:45:35,600 --> 01:45:37,880
me, I'll gladly trample them 
under foot. 

1981
01:45:38,280 --> 01:45:42,440
So old habits die hard, we say. 
Even amongst those who weren't 

1982
01:45:42,440 --> 01:45:46,280
even alive during these periods 
of of the most of greatest 

1983
01:45:46,280 --> 01:45:49,960
enmity, they're still passed on.
It's like it literally stays in 

1984
01:45:49,960 --> 01:45:54,360
their blood. 
So, but there's only so much a 

1985
01:45:54,360 --> 01:45:57,280
king can do on his own. 
Another is part of the point 

1986
01:45:57,280 --> 01:45:58,920
here. 
These ancient grievances, 

1987
01:45:58,920 --> 01:46:00,480
there's what can Deron do about 
that? 

1988
01:46:00,480 --> 01:46:02,920
There's only so much he it's 
almost like he just has to wait,

1989
01:46:03,000 --> 01:46:06,800
keep these guys a check and and 
let these generations die off 

1990
01:46:06,800 --> 01:46:09,880
and just try to reach the new 
generations and try to make them

1991
01:46:09,880 --> 01:46:12,360
peaceable. 
You just can't teach an old dog 

1992
01:46:12,360 --> 01:46:15,720
new tricks and back. 
And this all dates back again to

1993
01:46:15,720 --> 01:46:18,960
his father. 
We have another quote as 

1994
01:46:18,960 --> 01:46:21,760
Darren's major problem here. 
The seeds of war, of course, can

1995
01:46:21,760 --> 01:46:24,440
be credited and are credited to 
his father. 

1996
01:46:24,800 --> 01:46:28,240
In truth, the seeds found 
fertile ground because EV Aegon 

1997
01:46:28,240 --> 01:46:30,520
the Unworthy. 
Aegon had hated the Dornish and 

1998
01:46:30,520 --> 01:46:33,240
ward against them, and those 
Lords who desired the return of 

1999
01:46:33,240 --> 01:46:37,040
those days, despite all the 
associated misrule, would never 

2000
01:46:37,040 --> 01:46:38,360
be happy with this peaceable 
king. 

2001
01:46:38,840 --> 01:46:40,200
That kind of says it all, 
doesn't it? 

2002
01:46:40,200 --> 01:46:42,080
Some people just want to fight. 
We've been fighting there for 

2003
01:46:42,080 --> 01:46:43,880
thousands of years and that's 
how it should be. 

2004
01:46:43,920 --> 01:46:47,680
I hope we keep fighting forever.
It sounds ridiculous, but to us 

2005
01:46:47,680 --> 01:46:51,080
modern, peaceful people that 
live, you know, where we live 

2006
01:46:51,080 --> 01:46:55,240
now, or it's just kind of, it's 
just kind of blows the mind. 

2007
01:46:55,600 --> 01:46:57,800
But it's important to take a 
look at things from the other 

2008
01:46:57,800 --> 01:46:59,360
side. 
Steven, Let's take a look at how

2009
01:46:59,360 --> 01:47:01,920
the Dornish felt about all this.
There's just as many people on 

2010
01:47:01,920 --> 01:47:03,880
the Dornish side that wanted to 
keep fighting too, aren't there?

2011
01:47:03,880 --> 01:47:06,480
Right? 
For let me start it off with a 

2012
01:47:06,480 --> 01:47:08,800
quote here. 
The disunity the disunity of the

2013
01:47:08,800 --> 01:47:11,200
Dornish is apparent even from 
our oldest sources. 

2014
01:47:11,560 --> 01:47:14,360
The great distances between each
pocket of settlement and the 

2015
01:47:14,360 --> 01:47:17,200
difficulties of travel across 
burning sands and rugged 

2016
01:47:17,200 --> 01:47:20,040
mountains help to isolate each 
small community from all the 

2017
01:47:20,040 --> 01:47:22,800
others. 
The point of that is, just 

2018
01:47:22,800 --> 01:47:25,640
because the Martels married the 
throne and a couple other houses

2019
01:47:25,640 --> 01:47:28,440
got in on it, doesn't mean the 
rest of Dorn is excited about 

2020
01:47:28,440 --> 01:47:31,920
this. 
So on the other side, just like 

2021
01:47:31,920 --> 01:47:34,480
there's Karen's and Tarly's and 
Celanese who wanted to keep on 

2022
01:47:34,480 --> 01:47:38,080
fighting, there's Dornish houses
like the like the Fowlers of 

2023
01:47:38,080 --> 01:47:40,720
Skyreach, the Black Moths of 
Black Moth, the Man Woodies of 

2024
01:47:40,720 --> 01:47:43,480
King's Grave and the Wiles of 
Wild and the Ironwoods of 

2025
01:47:43,480 --> 01:47:45,880
Ironwood. 
They wanted to keep on killing 

2026
01:47:45,880 --> 01:47:48,400
marchers rather than making 
peace with them. 

2027
01:47:48,720 --> 01:47:51,840
We've got another quote that 
that speaks to this from the 

2028
01:47:51,840 --> 01:47:53,800
other side. 
I mentioned him a minute ago, 

2029
01:47:53,800 --> 01:47:55,880
Dark Star, and this is this is 
him. 

2030
01:47:56,360 --> 01:47:59,720
What I know is that Danes has 
been killing Oakharts for 

2031
01:47:59,720 --> 01:48:02,440
several 1000 years. 
His arrogance took her breath 

2032
01:48:02,440 --> 01:48:04,080
away. 
It seems to me that Oakharts 

2033
01:48:04,080 --> 01:48:05,880
have been killing Danes for just
as long. 

2034
01:48:06,400 --> 01:48:08,560
We all have our family 
traditions. 

2035
01:48:09,960 --> 01:48:12,440
Ah, Dark Star, he is of the 
night. 

2036
01:48:13,760 --> 01:48:16,360
He is Darkwing Duck. 
He is Darkwing Duck. 

2037
01:48:17,240 --> 01:48:20,560
OK, so as we move into part 6, 
we're we're we're getting close 

2038
01:48:20,560 --> 01:48:22,520
to the end here. 
We've only got 2 hours. 

2039
01:48:22,680 --> 01:48:24,520
We've only got a few minutes 
left, so we're going to make 

2040
01:48:24,520 --> 01:48:27,160
this brief. 
Remember that you can do 

2041
01:48:27,160 --> 01:48:29,920
shopping on Amazon.com through 
History of Westeros. 

2042
01:48:30,120 --> 01:48:32,400
We have a bunch of links on the 
right side of our front page, 

2043
01:48:32,840 --> 01:48:34,200
and it's a great way to support 
the show. 

2044
01:48:34,200 --> 01:48:37,240
You will not pay any additional 
money for any shopping you do at

2045
01:48:37,240 --> 01:48:39,920
Amazon.com, but we do get a 
small cut of any of that. 

2046
01:48:39,920 --> 01:48:42,480
So if you're going to shop there
anyway, might as well help us 

2047
01:48:42,480 --> 01:48:46,800
out, right? 
OK, Part 6, The Great Bastards, 

2048
01:48:47,160 --> 01:48:49,280
most of what we're going to talk
about with the Great Bastards, 

2049
01:48:49,280 --> 01:48:51,720
we're going to devote with their
individual episodes. 

2050
01:48:51,720 --> 01:48:52,800
It's going to be a Bitter Steel 
episode. 

2051
01:48:52,800 --> 01:48:54,200
It's going to be a Damon 
Blackfyre episode. 

2052
01:48:54,200 --> 01:48:55,600
It's going to be a Blood Raven 
episode. 

2053
01:48:55,800 --> 01:48:59,080
So just real quickly, we're 
going to cover what how Deron 

2054
01:48:59,080 --> 01:49:02,680
tried to handle them before they
were of age and to set things 

2055
01:49:02,680 --> 01:49:04,480
up. 
So, although he could not and 

2056
01:49:04,480 --> 01:49:07,440
would not rescind his father's 
last wishes, he did what he 

2057
01:49:07,440 --> 01:49:10,440
could to keep the Great Bastards
close, treating them honorably 

2058
01:49:10,440 --> 01:49:13,280
and continuing the incomes that 
the King had bestowed on them. 

2059
01:49:14,000 --> 01:49:16,360
Not a bad idea to keep them 
happy, I suppose. 

2060
01:49:16,360 --> 01:49:19,120
But was it enough, or did he go 
too far? 

2061
01:49:19,800 --> 01:49:25,360
So what do you think, Steven? 
We're we're going down to some 

2062
01:49:25,360 --> 01:49:27,800
of these issues here, like what 
do you think with his handling 

2063
01:49:27,800 --> 01:49:31,080
of Damon and and, and allowing 
him to have a castle and going 

2064
01:49:31,080 --> 01:49:32,880
through with his marriage that 
he went through? 

2065
01:49:33,160 --> 01:49:36,240
What do you think was did he did
he handle it well or did he did 

2066
01:49:36,240 --> 01:49:38,440
he screwed? 
Up my position with with Darren 

2067
01:49:38,440 --> 01:49:42,040
is that I feel like he tries to 
have things both ways and that 

2068
01:49:42,040 --> 01:49:43,520
doesn't always work out very 
well. 

2069
01:49:43,520 --> 01:49:47,720
So for example, you know, he he 
gives Damon this land, he gives 

2070
01:49:47,720 --> 01:49:51,920
him, allows him to build a 
castle, but then you get this 

2071
01:49:51,920 --> 01:49:58,680
conflict over over Daenerys. 
And you know, this kind of, you 

2072
01:49:58,680 --> 01:50:01,840
know, one of the things that 
historians always talk about 

2073
01:50:01,840 --> 01:50:05,160
with revolutions is that they 
almost never happen when things 

2074
01:50:05,160 --> 01:50:08,640
are at their worst. 
They usually happen when things 

2075
01:50:08,640 --> 01:50:11,160
have gotten better and then 
suffered A reversal. 

2076
01:50:11,480 --> 01:50:13,800
And it seems like that with a 
lot of the great bastards that, 

2077
01:50:13,800 --> 01:50:17,440
you know, he gave Damon just 
enough of the the taste of the 

2078
01:50:17,440 --> 01:50:19,160
good life that he came to expect
it. 

2079
01:50:19,640 --> 01:50:23,480
And then when he got crossed, he
felt like it's not that he'd 

2080
01:50:23,480 --> 01:50:25,000
reach for something out of his 
reach. 

2081
01:50:25,000 --> 01:50:27,760
It's more that he felt that 
something that he deserves, 

2082
01:50:27,760 --> 01:50:31,000
something that was rightfully 
his, had been taken away from 

2083
01:50:31,000 --> 01:50:33,160
him. 
I mean, especially in the case 

2084
01:50:33,200 --> 01:50:36,240
of Daenerys. 
And now we also talked about 

2085
01:50:36,240 --> 01:50:38,200
earlier, we talked a bit about 
why bitter steel would be upset.

2086
01:50:38,200 --> 01:50:40,200
So we don't need to re re go 
over that too much. 

2087
01:50:40,200 --> 01:50:44,320
But it it seems likely that from
Darren's point of view, he 

2088
01:50:44,320 --> 01:50:46,920
probably didn't like Bittersteel
much himself. 

2089
01:50:47,200 --> 01:50:48,480
It seems like they would 
probably. 

2090
01:50:48,480 --> 01:50:50,280
They both had reasons to dislike
each other. 

2091
01:50:51,040 --> 01:50:53,800
Deron may have resented the 
Brackens for their attempts to 

2092
01:50:53,800 --> 01:50:55,480
push him out of the way and his 
mother out of the way. 

2093
01:50:55,480 --> 01:50:58,120
That that that is an emotional 
thing. 

2094
01:50:58,120 --> 01:51:00,400
And even though Bittersteel was 
just a child, you could still 

2095
01:51:00,400 --> 01:51:01,960
have a grudge towards the 
Brackens for that. 

2096
01:51:01,960 --> 01:51:05,360
On the other hand, we have Blood
Raven, Brendan Rivers. 

2097
01:51:05,360 --> 01:51:07,960
They're both scholarly types and
they seem to get along. 

2098
01:51:07,960 --> 01:51:11,520
Obviously Bloodraven was a 
loyalist and remained A loyalist

2099
01:51:11,760 --> 01:51:15,920
and eventually became hand for 
King Aries, Darren's son. 

2100
01:51:17,560 --> 01:51:21,800
He may have been gifted with 
Dark Sister as part of this this

2101
01:51:21,880 --> 01:51:23,280
keeping the great bastards 
loyal. 

2102
01:51:23,280 --> 01:51:26,440
We don't actually know when he 
first acquired Dark Sister, 

2103
01:51:26,440 --> 01:51:28,360
though it may have been a reward
for the Red Grass field. 

2104
01:51:28,360 --> 01:51:29,480
He may have had it ahead of 
time. 

2105
01:51:29,680 --> 01:51:32,520
The only thing we know for sure 
is that he had it by about two O

2106
01:51:32,520 --> 01:51:36,720
4, but that's seven years after 
the war, so it's probably more 

2107
01:51:36,720 --> 01:51:38,520
fun to assume he had it during 
the war. 

2108
01:51:38,520 --> 01:51:41,920
Then we get to imagine him 
fighting bitter steal Black Fire

2109
01:51:41,920 --> 01:51:44,040
versus Dark Sister. 
But we'll talk about that a 

2110
01:51:44,040 --> 01:51:46,960
little more in their own episode
since we are fast running out of

2111
01:51:46,960 --> 01:51:49,120
time here. 
Real quick, Stephen general 

2112
01:51:49,120 --> 01:51:51,520
grade on his handling of the 
great pastors. 

2113
01:51:51,520 --> 01:51:53,240
What do you think? 
Do you think he'd get a good job

2114
01:51:53,240 --> 01:51:54,600
or do you think he could have 
done a little? 

2115
01:51:54,600 --> 01:51:57,560
Better, I think ultimately he's 
he screwed up. 

2116
01:51:57,560 --> 01:52:02,000
He tried to have things both 
ways and that, you know, I mean,

2117
01:52:03,400 --> 01:52:05,680
you know, I'm, I'm thinking here
of the sort of the discussions 

2118
01:52:05,680 --> 01:52:07,880
of the Small council in dealing 
with Daenerys. 

2119
01:52:08,160 --> 01:52:11,440
It's not a nice thing to do, 
but, you know, either make 

2120
01:52:11,440 --> 01:52:13,200
someone your friend or kill 
them. 

2121
01:52:13,200 --> 01:52:17,400
Don't try to do things both way.
You know, both ways that you 

2122
01:52:17,400 --> 01:52:21,720
know, you if you make Damon 
powerful enough that alienating 

2123
01:52:21,720 --> 01:52:25,160
him can lead to a civil war, 
you've just caused problems for 

2124
01:52:25,160 --> 01:52:26,560
yourself. 
You haven't solved anything. 

2125
01:52:27,200 --> 01:52:31,960
So, you know, either kind of go 
with them all the way and make 

2126
01:52:31,960 --> 01:52:35,200
sure that they are as loyal to 
you as they could be, or 

2127
01:52:35,200 --> 01:52:38,000
eliminate them completely so 
that they can't possibly pose a 

2128
01:52:38,000 --> 01:52:39,320
threat. 
Yeah, it doesn't seem like 

2129
01:52:39,320 --> 01:52:40,840
Darren was cutthroat enough for 
that. 

2130
01:52:40,840 --> 01:52:43,200
It seemed like he was a little 
too nice to be, to take those 

2131
01:52:43,200 --> 01:52:45,960
kind of steps. 
He didn't have that kind of cold

2132
01:52:45,960 --> 01:52:48,640
streak like Tywin or Stannis, 
like doing what had to be done 

2133
01:52:48,640 --> 01:52:51,560
because of the dangers. 
What's interesting that a 

2134
01:52:51,560 --> 01:52:54,080
complicate matters though, is 
you talk about how important it 

2135
01:52:54,080 --> 01:52:55,480
would have been for him to make 
friendships. 

2136
01:52:56,200 --> 01:52:57,960
It seemed like a friendship with
bitter steel was just out of the

2137
01:52:57,960 --> 01:52:58,800
question. 
Damon. 

2138
01:52:58,800 --> 01:53:02,640
However, there is that decent 
bit of evidence that they that 

2139
01:53:02,640 --> 01:53:05,240
Daron liked Damon. 
There's there's a mention of him

2140
01:53:05,240 --> 01:53:08,680
finding fond He was being fond 
of him in a lot of ways, and I 

2141
01:53:08,680 --> 01:53:12,080
can see that Damon was a very 
charismatic guy, even though 

2142
01:53:12,240 --> 01:53:15,040
like he could. 
I could see Daron blaming his 

2143
01:53:15,040 --> 01:53:17,040
father for the problems and 
saying oh, this child is 

2144
01:53:17,040 --> 01:53:18,240
innocent. 
Even though eventually they came

2145
01:53:18,240 --> 01:53:20,320
to be at odds when they were 
younger together. 

2146
01:53:20,320 --> 01:53:21,640
It may have been different and 
and that. 

2147
01:53:21,640 --> 01:53:23,040
May and they grew up to be. 
Tragic. 

2148
01:53:23,040 --> 01:53:23,760
Yeah. 
They grew up together. 

2149
01:53:23,760 --> 01:53:24,440
Exactly. 
And. 

2150
01:53:24,480 --> 01:53:25,520
Right. 
I mean, there's a difference 

2151
01:53:25,520 --> 01:53:27,720
there with bitter, which is 
that, you know, Bitter Steel was

2152
01:53:27,720 --> 01:53:31,680
in exile. 
He would have known, you know, 

2153
01:53:31,680 --> 01:53:34,320
Damon Damon's entire life. 
Yeah. 

2154
01:53:34,320 --> 01:53:36,520
And that's and and so that that 
can go a lot of ways. 

2155
01:53:36,520 --> 01:53:39,200
When you people you grow up with
you, it can go well. 

2156
01:53:39,200 --> 01:53:41,520
It can not do well, but you you 
definitely can have an opinion 

2157
01:53:41,520 --> 01:53:44,400
one way or the other. 
It's you're not going to be 

2158
01:53:44,400 --> 01:53:46,080
like, oh, I don't know anything 
about him. 

2159
01:53:46,160 --> 01:53:47,800
You know, you grew up with 
somebody, you're you're going to

2160
01:53:47,800 --> 01:53:49,280
have an opinion. 
These things are really going to

2161
01:53:49,280 --> 01:53:52,120
matter, especially when you grow
up at court in a position where 

2162
01:53:52,240 --> 01:53:54,640
in a place where there's 
ambition and power floating all 

2163
01:53:54,640 --> 01:53:57,320
over the place and being pulled 
in multiple directions. 

2164
01:53:58,040 --> 01:54:01,680
OK, the last few things, one 
thing that I think is really fun

2165
01:54:02,040 --> 01:54:06,120
is we talk about a lot of these 
topics and we talk about kind of

2166
01:54:06,120 --> 01:54:10,280
what ifs, what could have 
happened, what might have been. 

2167
01:54:10,280 --> 01:54:16,760
Well, one way that this can be 
played out is by gaming. 

2168
01:54:16,760 --> 01:54:20,960
One of my favorite games and I 
that I've ever played in my life

2169
01:54:20,960 --> 01:54:23,440
is Crusader Kings 2. 
And we've talked about it 

2170
01:54:23,440 --> 01:54:26,560
briefly on the show before. 
And it has, it's a wonderful 

2171
01:54:26,560 --> 01:54:29,880
game set in the medieval periods
and you can play a number of 

2172
01:54:29,880 --> 01:54:32,320
different times. 
And it has a there's a mod out 

2173
01:54:32,320 --> 01:54:34,600
there that you can find links to
on our forum. 

2174
01:54:35,680 --> 01:54:41,800
And it is it turns the game into
a Westeros, It turns it into 

2175
01:54:41,800 --> 01:54:44,200
Westeros and Esos. 
And you can even replay the 

2176
01:54:44,200 --> 01:54:47,040
black fire rebellions with this 
game by taking control of Damon 

2177
01:54:47,040 --> 01:54:49,200
Blackfire or bitter steal. 
Or have you played this game 

2178
01:54:49,200 --> 01:54:50,240
much? 
I have. 

2179
01:54:50,240 --> 01:54:54,000
In fact, not only have I played 
this game, I tried to win the 

2180
01:54:54,000 --> 01:54:56,280
Black Fire Rebellion as Damon 
Blackfire. 

2181
01:54:56,320 --> 01:54:58,080
Did you succeed? 
Not so successful, Oh no. 

2182
01:54:59,120 --> 01:55:02,080
But I I was just, it was my 
first experience with Crusader 

2183
01:55:02,080 --> 01:55:05,920
Kings too, and I didn't really 
understand a word to the 

2184
01:55:05,920 --> 01:55:08,040
warning. 
It's a fun game, but it is very 

2185
01:55:08,040 --> 01:55:12,440
complicated and you need to 
know, you need to learn, 

2186
01:55:12,440 --> 01:55:17,080
especially dynastic claims and 
rules of succession. 

2187
01:55:17,480 --> 01:55:19,760
Otherwise, you just don't know 
what you're doing. 

2188
01:55:20,720 --> 01:55:22,560
Shay and I have both spent 
plenty of time in that game. 

2189
01:55:22,560 --> 01:55:25,240
I recommend it for people that 
have plenty of time to kill 

2190
01:55:25,240 --> 01:55:28,480
because it is a time sink. 
You can actually purchase it 

2191
01:55:28,480 --> 01:55:30,640
through our site. 
Go to historyofwesteros.com and 

2192
01:55:30,640 --> 01:55:34,200
it's on the on the right in the 
sidebar, Crusader Kings 2. 

2193
01:55:34,320 --> 01:55:37,360
And like I said, you can find 
the mod through our forums. 

2194
01:55:37,360 --> 01:55:39,360
There are lots of links to it. 
Or you can just type Crusader 

2195
01:55:39,360 --> 01:55:41,560
Kings Game of Thrones mod in 
Google and you'll find it that 

2196
01:55:41,560 --> 01:55:43,320
way. 
But this is yet another way to 

2197
01:55:43,320 --> 01:55:45,600
support the show and have a lot 
of fun in the meantime. 

2198
01:55:46,320 --> 01:55:48,800
OK, we got to wrap things up. 
Thanks again. 

2199
01:55:49,160 --> 01:55:52,000
We we have I have a one last one
or two little things to say here

2200
01:55:52,000 --> 01:55:54,080
before we get out of here. 
We only have a couple minutes 

2201
01:55:54,080 --> 01:55:56,200
left. 
The story of Deron doesn't end 

2202
01:55:56,200 --> 01:55:58,120
here. 
Deron's fate will be discussed 

2203
01:55:58,120 --> 01:56:00,440
later as part of our coverage of
what happened after the final 

2204
01:56:00,440 --> 01:56:03,600
conflict of the first black Fire
rebellion, the battle of Red 

2205
01:56:03,600 --> 01:56:05,680
Grass field. 
So next in the series on the 

2206
01:56:05,680 --> 01:56:08,160
road to Red Grass is the man who
epitomizes all the complaints 

2207
01:56:08,160 --> 01:56:10,000
against King Deron. 
The man who represented the 

2208
01:56:10,000 --> 01:56:12,360
solution to so many problems 
plaguing the realm. 

2209
01:56:12,520 --> 01:56:15,320
The man who was too many. 
Seeing the way Bran saw Jamie 

2210
01:56:15,320 --> 01:56:17,760
early in the Game of Thrones 
quote, this is what a king 

2211
01:56:17,760 --> 01:56:20,400
should look like. 
The black dragon himself, the 

2212
01:56:20,400 --> 01:56:22,960
king who bore the sword, Damon 
Blackfire. 

2213
01:56:23,040 --> 01:56:24,960
All right, thanks, Steven for 
for joining us today. 

2214
01:56:24,960 --> 01:56:26,120
It was really awesome having 
you. 

2215
01:56:26,120 --> 01:56:27,720
You're obviously very 
knowledgeable for this topic. 

2216
01:56:27,720 --> 01:56:30,520
It was great just be able to go 
back and forth without having to

2217
01:56:30,520 --> 01:56:33,760
do to script every line. 
It was it's wonderful to to talk

2218
01:56:33,760 --> 01:56:35,360
to somebody that has really deep
knowledge of. 

2219
01:56:35,360 --> 01:56:38,560
The My pleasure. 
So tell everybody again where to

2220
01:56:38,560 --> 01:56:40,920
find your essays. 
Okay, you can go to 

2221
01:56:40,920 --> 01:56:45,640
racefortheironthrone.wordpress.com.
You can look me up on Tumblr. 

2222
01:56:45,640 --> 01:56:47,360
I do a lot of sort of writing 
there. 

2223
01:56:47,680 --> 01:56:51,080
Race for 
theironthrone.tumblr.com and you

2224
01:56:51,080 --> 01:56:52,920
can look at my essays on Tower 
of the Hand. 

2225
01:56:53,480 --> 01:56:57,320
Great. 
Last real quick, we have our for

2226
01:56:57,320 --> 01:57:00,480
for $2.00 a month on Patreon, 
you can get each episode one day

2227
01:57:00,480 --> 01:57:02,480
early. 
That's a way to join the History

2228
01:57:02,480 --> 01:57:05,280
of Westeros Army and I want to 
thank those people who are our 

2229
01:57:05,280 --> 01:57:08,440
top Patreon supporters. 
Hand of the King, Lord Cash 

2230
01:57:08,440 --> 01:57:11,040
Craig AKA Vaxis on the High 
Street Westeros forums. 

2231
01:57:11,240 --> 01:57:13,440
Our warden in the north is Lord 
Parker the Bastard of 

2232
01:57:13,440 --> 01:57:15,400
Starkville. 
We do not have any other wardens

2233
01:57:15,400 --> 01:57:16,840
at this time. 
Those spots are open. 

2234
01:57:17,040 --> 01:57:19,520
The master of Coin is Lord 
Robert Jacobs, the Master of 

2235
01:57:19,520 --> 01:57:21,440
Whisperers, Lord James the 
Scholar. 

2236
01:57:21,720 --> 01:57:25,000
Grand Master Itai wears the 
jeweled collar of many medals, 

2237
01:57:25,200 --> 01:57:28,320
Rosie the Clever is our master 
of Laws, and Lord James Tuttle 

2238
01:57:28,320 --> 01:57:30,720
is our Master of Ships. 
The History of Westeros Night's 

2239
01:57:30,720 --> 01:57:34,080
Watch Lord Commander is Lord 
Commander George the Golden 

2240
01:57:34,440 --> 01:57:36,880
History of Westeros Kingsguard 
Commanded by Lord Commander 

2241
01:57:36,880 --> 01:57:39,280
Shepard. 
We have Sir Andrew the Prophet, 

2242
01:57:39,280 --> 01:57:42,960
Sir Paul Greenhand, Sir Dolorous
Dee, and Sir Lars Henry as the 

2243
01:57:42,960 --> 01:57:44,800
rest of the Kingsguard. 
There are still a couple open 

2244
01:57:44,800 --> 01:57:47,640
spots. 
Valor Morgales means all men 

2245
01:57:47,640 --> 01:57:51,000
must die, and so do all episodes
of History of Westeros come to 

2246
01:57:51,040 --> 01:57:53,360
an end. 
So until next time folks, thanks

2247
01:57:53,360 --> 01:57:55,520
for tuning in and we'll see you 
next time.