1
00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:25,480
Daron was spindly and round of 
shoulder, with a little belly 

2
00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:28,720
that wobbled when he walked. 
Damon stood straight and proud, 

3
00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:31,720
and his stomach was flat and 
hard as an oaken shield, and he 

4
00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:34,320
could fight with axe or Lance or
flail. 

5
00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:37,640
He was as good as any knight I 
ever saw, but with the sword he 

6
00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:40,960
was the warrior himself. 
When Prince Damon had black fire

7
00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:43,200
in his hand, there was not a man
to equal him. 

8
00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:47,440
Not Ulrich Dane with Dawn, no, 
nor even the Dragon Knight with 

9
00:00:47,480 --> 00:00:50,400
Dark Sister. 
If you're a sucker for cool 

10
00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:54,360
sounding names like I am, you 
saw the name Damon Blackfire for

11
00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:57,360
the first time and immediately 
wondered who the heck that was 

12
00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:01,440
and wanted to know more. 
This, then, is the episode for 

13
00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:03,280
you. 
We've got more Damon Blackfire 

14
00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:06,120
than you can handle. 
He's immensely popular in the 

15
00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:07,600
fandom. 
A lot of you have been waiting 

16
00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:09,640
for this episode for a long 
time. 

17
00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:13,400
It's one of the most requested 
episodes we've had in our 3 1/2 

18
00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:16,840
year run. 
Likewise, he was immensely 

19
00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:20,400
popular in the world as well, 
overflowing with charisma and 

20
00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:24,040
the traits that Westerosi from 
all social classes admire and 

21
00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:25,920
seek to embody. 
He was one of the greatest 

22
00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:28,560
fighters of all time, some would
say the best. 

23
00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:31,880
Many of those same would also 
say that he was never truly 

24
00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:34,360
beaten in the field. 
No one could stand against him 

25
00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:37,000
in single combat. 
It took arrows to bring him 

26
00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:40,040
down. 
Cowardly, cowardly arrows. 

27
00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:44,000
This only enhanced his legend 
and made him a quasi martyr. 

28
00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:46,840
No wonder his descendants 
troubled the realm for 

29
00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:50,880
generations after his death. 
Hello and welcome to another 

30
00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:53,960
episode of History of Westeros 
Podcast, The podcast dedicated 

31
00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:57,360
to George RR Martin's A Song of 
Ice and Fire book series as well

32
00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:00,840
as HB OS Game of Thrones. 
No Game of Thrones talk today. 

33
00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:03,240
This is all A Song of Ice and 
Fire history. 

34
00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:07,160
There are some spoilers from the
Dunkin Egg series, Actually 

35
00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:10,199
quite a few spoilers from the 
Dunkin Egg series as well as 

36
00:02:10,199 --> 00:02:13,680
from the World of Ice and Fire. 
It's very mild on A Song of Ice 

37
00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:16,600
and Fire spoilers. 
If you are a show only watcher, 

38
00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:19,960
this episode is pretty safe for 
you as far as I can tell. 

39
00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:23,400
It's a possibility that I missed
something, but I've gone over 

40
00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:26,240
this the script a few times and 
I don't see anything that would 

41
00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:29,240
be considered a spoiler. 
Now you may notice that we don't

42
00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:31,320
have a Shaya this time. 
That was kind of a last minute 

43
00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:32,680
thing. 
She's had some things come up 

44
00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:36,120
and we took the show must go on 
attitude since we really wanted 

45
00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:37,760
to get this episode out as soon 
as possible. 

46
00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:39,920
As I said, a lot of people have 
been waiting it, waiting on it 

47
00:02:39,920 --> 00:02:42,000
for a long time. 
And hey, I'm not alone. 

48
00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:46,400
I have a very special guest 
returning from it's. 

49
00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:48,760
It was our last Blackfyre 
episode, but that was many 

50
00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:52,200
months ago before the TV season.
Welcome back Steven Atwell. 

51
00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:56,320
Hello, good to be here. 
Yeah, so a lot of people 

52
00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:59,280
remember you from last time, but
why don't you just go ahead and 

53
00:02:59,520 --> 00:03:01,640
list your string of titles? 
Sure. 

54
00:03:01,640 --> 00:03:04,680
My name is Steven Atwell. 
I'm a PhD historian. 

55
00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:08,760
I rate I write Race for the Iron
Throne, A blog dedicated to 

56
00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:11,200
historical and political 
analysis of The Song of Ice and 

57
00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:15,120
Fire, and I also write essays 
for Tower of the Hand, and I've 

58
00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:17,600
published a number of books on 
Sound of Ice and Fire. 

59
00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:19,000
Right on, right on. 
Very good. 

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00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:22,040
We're doing another one of these
hybrid episodes. 

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00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:24,600
This is, this is only, I think 
it's only the second or third 

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00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:27,760
one of these that we've done, 
which is partly scripted and 

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00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:30,720
part discussion format. 
And I would love to hear your 

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00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:33,840
feedback as to what you think of
this hybrid format. 

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00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:35,760
Some people prefer the script, 
some people before discussions. 

66
00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:37,320
So we're trying to do a bit of 
both. 

67
00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:41,280
Sometimes doing both might not 
work out the way we think. 

68
00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:43,320
I like it, but I would love to 
hear what you all think. 

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00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:47,280
Minor schedule change. 
We're not going to do Bitter 

70
00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:49,680
Steal episode next. 
We're going to do the Red Grass 

71
00:03:49,680 --> 00:03:51,800
Field episode next. 
And we're going to have another 

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00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:55,360
guest, 2 guests in fact. 
We're going to have Steven and 

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00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:59,440
Jim Mcgeehan from Wars and 
Politics of Ice and Fire, the 

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00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:02,840
Brendan B Fish blog, very 
excited to have him coming as 

75
00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:03,760
well. 
We're going to have a great 

76
00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:05,080
discussion on that. 
We're going to break down all 

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00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:08,520
the battles of the war. 
This episode is all about Damon 

78
00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:11,960
Blackfire, his character, his 
personalities, and his impact as

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00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:13,720
a person. 
We're not going to get too deep 

80
00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:16,680
into the actual war itself. 
We might, of course, interject 

81
00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:19,079
another episode before Bitter 
Steal and Bloodraven. 

82
00:04:19,079 --> 00:04:21,720
You never know what the way the 
way we work is. 

83
00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:23,360
We don't put out an episode till
it's ready. 

84
00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:24,960
We're not going to. 
We're not going to rush things. 

85
00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:25,880
We're going to make sure it's 
right. 

86
00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:27,560
We're going to make sure we have
all the details where they need 

87
00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:29,400
to be. 
I can't count the number of 

88
00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:31,640
episodes we have that are only 
about 1/3 to half finished. 

89
00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:33,760
Now you can help us finish more 
of these episodes and get others

90
00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:36,720
started by signing up to give us
a recurring pledge on Patreon. 

91
00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:39,640
They'll charge you the amount 
you decide in advance once per 

92
00:04:39,640 --> 00:04:42,640
month, and we give you benefits.
Sir Joshua Hayes Cutter called 

93
00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:44,880
Joshua the Raw the history of 
Westeros First sword, for 

94
00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:47,080
example. 
He and other supporters got to 

95
00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:49,680
see this episode and download it
a full week early 

96
00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:52,920
www.patreon.com/history of 
Westeros. 

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00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:55,160
Now, one of the things we'll be 
doing in this episode is trying 

98
00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:56,600
to separate the man from the 
myth. 

99
00:04:56,840 --> 00:04:59,480
His supporters loved him so much
that they tended to exaggerate. 

100
00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:02,760
Case in point, the opening quote
from Sir Eustis Osgre there 

101
00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:05,560
claims Damon was better than the
Dragon Knight. 

102
00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:08,280
This is pure speculation on his 
part, aiming the Dragon Knight 

103
00:05:08,280 --> 00:05:10,840
died when Damon was maybe 8 or 9
years old. 

104
00:05:10,840 --> 00:05:14,360
They clearly never fought. 
Given that, he probably didn't 

105
00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:16,200
fight this Ulrich Dame guy 
either. 

106
00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:18,760
Despite these exaggerations 
though, he really was 

107
00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:20,520
incredible. 
So of course we'll cover that 

108
00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:21,800
too. 
That's more fun. 

109
00:05:22,840 --> 00:05:26,000
David's place in the fandom 
stands out, and this episode 

110
00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:27,680
reflects that. 
Though his life story is 

111
00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:30,520
extremely compelling, he doesn't
really have that much impact on 

112
00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:33,000
A Song of Ice and Fire. 
Not directly, anyway. 

113
00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:35,920
His descendants and allies and 
other parts of his legacy. 

114
00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:40,960
Now, those things have and might
continue to have a major impact,

115
00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:43,280
but a lot of his appeal comes 
down to the fact that he's just 

116
00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:46,200
flat out cool. 
He's definitely one of the most 

117
00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:48,600
popular characters in all of A 
Song of Ice and Fire, giving him

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00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:52,840
kind of a a Boba Fett type 
quality, meaning huge popularity

119
00:05:52,840 --> 00:05:55,840
with little to no screen time. 
The thing is too, that we've 

120
00:05:55,880 --> 00:06:00,160
actually heard Boba Fett speak. 
And while this episode is full 

121
00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:03,720
of direct quotes from the source
material, as usual, none of them

122
00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:06,800
are from Damon himself. 
None such has been given to us. 

123
00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:08,360
We don't have a Damon Blackfire 
quote. 

124
00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:11,080
We've not even seen him on 
screen really. 

125
00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:15,000
Unless you count the graphic 
novels which show the battle of 

126
00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:16,440
a redgrass field. 
Highly recommended. 

127
00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:19,640
By the way, you can get those 
through Amazon, The Hedge Knight

128
00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:21,080
and the Swansword graphic 
novels. 

129
00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:22,520
You can go to 
historyofwesteros.com. 

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00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:24,480
We've got links there on the on 
the right side. 

131
00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:27,680
You can also pre-order the 
Knight of Seven kingdoms. 

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00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:30,360
Well, maybe by the time you've 
you're seeing this episode, it 

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00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:35,320
won't be a pre-order that's due 
out on October 6th, I believe 

134
00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:37,840
2015 and this episode's coming 
out right before that. 

135
00:06:37,840 --> 00:06:39,320
So most of you it'll already be 
out either way. 

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00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:40,440
You want to get your hands on 
it. 

137
00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:42,040
The Dunkin Egg stories are 
great. 

138
00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:44,600
Real quick. 
First some meta history. 

139
00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:46,040
We always like to start with the
meta history. 

140
00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:49,440
The first ever mention of Damon 
Blackfire was by Stannis. 

141
00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:53,000
I am not a cruel man, Sir Davos,
you know me, have known me long.

142
00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:55,800
This is not my decree. 
It has always been so since 

143
00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:59,360
Aegon's day and before Damon 
Blackfire, the brothers, Toyn, 

144
00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:03,120
the Vulture King, Grand Maester 
Harris, traitors have always 

145
00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:05,800
paid with their lives. 
Now, some would take this to 

146
00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:08,400
mean that George RR Martin 
hadn't invented the Blackfires 

147
00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:11,280
nor given them a role in A Song 
of Ice and Fire until around 

148
00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:14,760
that time, but references to 
Eamon the Dragon Knight loving 

149
00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:18,120
Queen Nerys and vice versa are 
plentiful in book one. 

150
00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:20,640
This relationship, of course, is
a major part of the Black Fire 

151
00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:22,520
scenario. 
Rumors that King Darren the 

152
00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:25,280
Second was actually the son of 
Nerys and the Dragon Knight 

153
00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:29,240
persisted for quite a while and 
were a main factor in Damon's 

154
00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:31,240
proclamation that he was the 
true king. 

155
00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:34,000
So I think it more likely George
RR Martin come up with parts of 

156
00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:37,760
the subplot ahead of time before
eventually giving it a name. 

157
00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:39,920
I think the reason that 
Blackfyre as a name doesn't 

158
00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:42,800
appear until Book 3 is in part 
because of this meaning he 

159
00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:45,040
simply hadn't come up with all 
all of it, but he had, you know,

160
00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:46,520
the broad strokes. 
What do you think about that, 

161
00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:48,000
Stephen? 
You think that's accurate or do 

162
00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:49,880
you think you have a different 
take on when he came up with? 

163
00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:52,840
It sounds possible. 
Certainly I mean it, you know 

164
00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:56,080
the I think the tricky thing 
here is just figuring out when 

165
00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:59,400
certain drafts were started 
around other you know, so for 

166
00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:02,600
example, like Damon Blackfyre, 
you know, we really don't see 

167
00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:07,400
much of him until sworn sort. 
Now, when did Martin first start

168
00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:10,240
writing Swan Sword? 
You know, when was the very 

169
00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:13,400
first draft of that? 
A little hard to say, but it's 

170
00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:15,080
certainly pause. 
Right on. 

171
00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:16,000
Yeah. 
And of course, with these 

172
00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:17,920
things, we never can't tell. 
Maybe one day George will tell 

173
00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:20,760
us in an interview, but he 
honestly may not even remember 

174
00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:23,680
exactly when he came up with it.
It's like, yeah, I was, I don't 

175
00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:26,400
know, 15 years ago. 
I don't know when exactly he 

176
00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:28,480
might have something to kind of 
place it, but yeah. 

177
00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:30,680
Anyway. 
So he may have intended it all 

178
00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:34,360
as historical backdrop only, but
along the way the idea to wave 

179
00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:37,360
it into the main storyline 
struck him and the rest is 

180
00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:38,960
history. 
Meta history. 

181
00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:42,400
Now a comparison to Robert 
Baratheon works really nicely 

182
00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:45,160
here thanks to the second ever 
mention of Damon. 

183
00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:49,480
Not only was Mr. Blackfyre 
similar and prowess to Mr. 

184
00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:52,440
Robert, both were elite 
fighters, but as rebels, they 

185
00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:54,080
were similar in terms of threat 
level. 

186
00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:58,440
Here's Jamie Speaking of Aries. 
He had finally realized that 

187
00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:01,480
Robert was no mere outlaw to be 
crushed at whim, but the 

188
00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:05,320
greatest threat House Targaryen 
had faced since Damon Blackfire.

189
00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:08,000
Now a major difference, of 
course, was that Robert actually

190
00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:11,320
won, slaying crowns Prince 
Rhaegar in the process. 

191
00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:14,120
Upon his arrival at King's 
Landing, Robert found Aries and 

192
00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:18,040
his family dead or fled, 
betrayed by a certain Kingsguard

193
00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:19,400
knight. 
The one who provided us with 

194
00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:22,960
that last quote. 
On the other hand, Damon was 

195
00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:26,440
defeated in large part thanks to
Crown Prince Baylor and King 

196
00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:29,280
Garron's Kingsguard face no such
conundrums. 

197
00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:34,040
So let's go to Part 1. 
Born under a bad name, starting 

198
00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:38,320
with Damon's childhood, Damon 
was the name Dana gave to this 

199
00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:40,200
child. 
For Prince Damon had been the 

200
00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:43,480
wonder and the terror of his 
age, and in later days that was 

201
00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:45,720
seen as a warning of what the 
boy would become. 

202
00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:50,280
Damon Waters was his full name 
when he was born in 170 AC. 

203
00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:54,200
So 40 years prior to that his 
great grandfather, Prince Damon 

204
00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:58,480
Targaryen AKA the Rogue Prince 
died in battle against another 

205
00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:02,040
Targaryen Prince. 27 years 
later, Damon, a Targaryen 

206
00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:04,920
bastard, would fall in battle 
against another Targaryen 

207
00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:07,200
bastard. 
There's quite a few other things

208
00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:10,200
they had in common. 
Both wanted crowns and both were

209
00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:12,480
contentious via their very 
existence. 

210
00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:15,560
Both wielded Targaryen Valyrian 
steel blades. 1 fought for the 

211
00:10:15,560 --> 00:10:18,640
blacks versus the greens and 
rode a real red dragon. 

212
00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:22,560
The other was the not real black
dragon who fought against the 

213
00:10:22,560 --> 00:10:24,480
red. 
Lots of colors in there now. 

214
00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:27,840
Both came very close to kingship
through war. 

215
00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:31,040
In his lifetime, Prince Damon 
personally killed or had killed 

216
00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:32,760
at least two other Targaryen 
Princess. 

217
00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:36,080
But Damon Blackfyre had already 
killed a Targaryen king at 41 

218
00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:37,480
days old. 
How about that? 

219
00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:40,000
Well, sort of. 
King Baylor the Blessed was so 

220
00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:43,440
shamed by Damon's birth that he 
fasted himself to death, but he 

221
00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:45,560
never ended up killing any 
Targaryens in battle. 

222
00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:48,440
Make no mistake though, they had
very, very different 

223
00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:51,800
personalities, these two Damons.
Despite these parallels, since 

224
00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:54,360
our purpose is to continue our 
in depth analysis of the major 

225
00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:56,400
players in the Blackfyre 
Rebellions, focusing on their 

226
00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:59,120
early lives as much as anything 
else in order to understand who 

227
00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:01,600
they are and the environment and
events that molded their 

228
00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:04,240
personalities. 
The young are susceptible, thus 

229
00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:06,880
it is crucial to look at these 
early phases when we can. 

230
00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:09,400
So of course we start with the 
person who tends to be the prime

231
00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:13,320
factor for most human beings 
ever, The mother. 

232
00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:16,680
Damon's mother was Dana 
Targaryen, eldest daughter of 

233
00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:20,320
Aegon the Third sister to Deron 
the First, the Young Dragon and 

234
00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:23,080
Baylor the Blessed. 
It was planned for her to be 

235
00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:26,560
Baylor's wife, of course, but as
we know well, she was instead 

236
00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:30,120
confined to the Maiden Vault and
the marriage was not 

237
00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:33,600
consummated, and she was 
entirely set aside by the Septon

238
00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:35,880
King in his Earl early in his 
reign rather. 

239
00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:39,240
Despite this isolation, her life
story is quite interesting, 

240
00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:41,800
though honestly and 
unfortunately there are huge 

241
00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:43,760
gaps in the available knowledge 
on her. 

242
00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:45,920
It's disappointing to realize 
that we probably won't learn 

243
00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:49,960
anything more until Fire and 
Blood, the history book that's 

244
00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:52,400
going to come after the series, 
but we'll look at the bright 

245
00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:54,600
side. 
What we have is very cool and 

246
00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:56,400
helps us considerably in 
understanding Damon. 

247
00:11:56,880 --> 00:11:59,080
There's no mistaking that many 
of the strongest beliefs she 

248
00:11:59,080 --> 00:12:03,920
held were also seen in Damon and
or many of his followers. 

249
00:12:04,560 --> 00:12:06,880
Perhaps the most important 
detail, missing detail rather, 

250
00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:10,920
is that we have no idea when 
Dana even died, other than it 

251
00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:13,720
wasn't during childbirth or soon
after. 

252
00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:15,960
But it could have been anywhere 
from early in the Rain of Egg on

253
00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:20,120
the 4th to to much later to 
after the Blackfyre Rebellion 

254
00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:22,320
for example. 
She did not reveal who the 

255
00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:25,440
father was ever, as far as we 
know, at least not publicly. 

256
00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:28,000
It was his father that revealed 
the truth much later. 

257
00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:30,400
His prowess and charisma would 
draw quite a lot of attention 

258
00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:33,040
later on, but that probably 
didn't get going until a while 

259
00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:34,360
after he first picked up a 
sword. 

260
00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:37,120
So we can guess that she was his
primary influence early on. 

261
00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:40,520
So, Steven, let's discuss 
Damon's parentage. 

262
00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:43,600
What do you think about the 
possibility that Dana died 

263
00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:47,800
before Aegon the 4th claimed him
as his son? 

264
00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:51,640
I'm a little skeptical of that 
simply because, you know, given 

265
00:12:51,680 --> 00:12:57,680
Aegon's rather lazy nature, I 
think he needed an outside, you 

266
00:12:57,680 --> 00:12:59,600
know, influence pushing him to 
do this. 

267
00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:02,160
I think that was that was 
probably Dana. 

268
00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:06,600
That's a good point too, in 
general, that I think that a lot

269
00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:09,880
of things that Aegon did may 
have been somebody else's idea. 

270
00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:12,200
There may have, like when 
Joffrey executed Ned on the 

271
00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:16,320
steps of Baylor's accept. 
That probably wasn't his idea. 

272
00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:18,680
He loved the idea. 
But I think it's pretty widely 

273
00:13:18,680 --> 00:13:21,960
believed that Littlefinger is 
the one who, you know, made that

274
00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:23,560
suggestion and Joffrey ceased on
it. 

275
00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:26,400
Aegon the 4th, I wonder how many
things like that happen with 

276
00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:28,360
him. 
George R Martin himself said 

277
00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:32,360
from an S from a Sosbek Martin 
later as a pampered prisoner in 

278
00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:35,000
her brother's court, Dana made 
several escapes, usually by 

279
00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:37,720
dressing as a washerwoman or 
serving girl, once with the 

280
00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:41,480
connivance of her cousin Aegon. 
And that is Aegon the 4th, who 

281
00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:44,360
was only a Prince at that time. 
So several escapes. 

282
00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:48,040
Do you think it's possible maybe
that she got pregnant from 

283
00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:51,080
somebody else and then it's just
a popular rumor that Aegon the 

284
00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:53,440
4th was the one? 
Or is that a bit of a bit of a 

285
00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:55,800
stretch? 
You know, it's always possible. 

286
00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:58,720
What I would say is that 
everything we know about Dana 

287
00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:03,800
seems to infer that she really, 
really believed in Targaryen 

288
00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:11,000
incest as a principle, as a kind
of ethos for living, that, you 

289
00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:16,640
know, she desperately wanted to 
shame Baylor into, you know, in 

290
00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:20,320
her mind, doing the right thing.
So if it wasn't Aegon, it had to

291
00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:22,320
have been another Targaryen. 
I don't think she would have 

292
00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:25,680
gone for anything else. 
Especially, you know, given the 

293
00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:30,560
way that we see that that Damon 
was raised emphasis on his pure 

294
00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:36,000
Targaryen nature clearly seems 
to have come from her emphasis 

295
00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:37,720
on sort of the purity of the 
bloodline. 

296
00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:39,840
I think I agree with that. 
I don't think she would have 

297
00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:42,560
tried to get pregnant from 
another from a non Targaryen. 

298
00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:44,840
And we know that she wanted to 
get pregnant, which is 

299
00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:47,160
interesting and we'll talk about
that in a little a little bit 

300
00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:49,880
later. 
But do you think, how much of A 

301
00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:51,160
secret do you think it was at 
court? 

302
00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:54,080
It's it's said that it was 
rumored that he was the father. 

303
00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:56,840
It was what you think it was 
kind of an open secret or just 

304
00:14:56,840 --> 00:14:59,760
something that was whispered or 
what's your take on that? 

305
00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:02,480
Well, I mean, you know, when 
you're sleeping with with 

306
00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:05,920
everyone else, you know, you 
make yourself kind of an obvious

307
00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:07,320
target. 
It's like it must have been that

308
00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:09,720
guy. 
Yeah, I'm trying to remember the

309
00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:13,000
the like, who else could it have
been at the time? 

310
00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:14,800
Yeah, I don't. 
Think there's any other really 

311
00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:16,680
strong options as far as 
Targaryens go? 

312
00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:20,000
I mean, maybe the Sarah's, but I
doubt it. 

313
00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:22,840
Yeah, he would have been kind of
older and he seems kind of 

314
00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:23,400
proper. 
Yeah. 

315
00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:24,400
So I don't know, I guess you're 
right. 

316
00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:27,080
There's it probably has to be 
Egon by process of elimination 

317
00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:28,960
and and given what we think of 
Dana's personality. 

318
00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:32,360
Now, you know, the the 
interesting thing to me has 

319
00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:36,560
always been, you know, did she 
want to be in terms of sort of 

320
00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:39,600
who she would have preferred the
father to be is I think she 

321
00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:42,680
always wanted to be with, with 
Dara the first. 

322
00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:44,440
Yeah, she did. 
I think you're right. 

323
00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:47,320
She wanted, she, she certainly 
idolized him and she thought 

324
00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:49,920
highly of him. 
And this is the basis for much 

325
00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:53,320
of why we think that she hated 
the Dornish because of their 

326
00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:56,480
betrayal like against him in the
parley, etcetera. 

327
00:15:56,880 --> 00:16:02,560
So that and that of course, 
leads us to how Damon was given 

328
00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:05,080
a hatred of the Dornish early in
his life. 

329
00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:06,680
We'll get what we'll get into 
that a little bit later. 

330
00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:09,280
But it kind of came from both 
her and his father, apparently, 

331
00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:12,600
which is very interesting. 
So we can believe that even if 

332
00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:16,040
Dana was alive in 182 when the 
king announced that Damon was 

333
00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:18,680
his son, that she was fine with 
it, true or not? 

334
00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:21,640
Because after all, that means 
he's, you know, the son of the 

335
00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:24,600
king. 
That's harder to be higher in 

336
00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:26,800
the hierarchy than that. 
Even though he's a bastard. 

337
00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:30,520
Now, she may have thought that 
there was more to it than that. 

338
00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:32,320
She may have had. 
Her ambition may have gone even 

339
00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:33,920
farther. 
So I want to take a look at how 

340
00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:37,040
ambitious she was, because an 
ambitious mother with a child 

341
00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:38,960
like Damon would be a huge 
influencer. 

342
00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:42,360
And again, even if he wasn't 
ambitious or only moderately so,

343
00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:45,720
he wasn't raised by his father 
until later, as far as we know. 

344
00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:47,720
So that only serves to make it 
crystal clear that if we want to

345
00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:50,080
know Damon, we have to know his 
mother because she seems to have

346
00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:52,400
been the only one around for a 
while now. 

347
00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:54,200
Here we go. 
She even contrived toward the 

348
00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:57,200
end of Baylor's reign to get 
herself with child, though some 

349
00:16:57,200 --> 00:16:59,560
might say it would have been 
better had she been less defiant

350
00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:01,840
for all the trouble that son 
brought to the realm. 

351
00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:03,560
So let's talk about that 
ambition. 

352
00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:05,119
What do you think she contrived 
to get pregnant? 

353
00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:07,280
Was it just a shame, Baylor, Or 
do you think there was some 

354
00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:10,960
ambition behind it? 
Maybe that she had plans to win 

355
00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:15,720
over Aegon himself and get him 
to declare their child 

356
00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:19,440
legitimate? 
Or possible or possibly to 

357
00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:25,560
basically pass Damon off as the 
son and heir of Baylor the 

358
00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:28,880
blessed, you know, she was, 
after all, his, you know, 

359
00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:31,600
Baylor's wife, at least 
initially. 

360
00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:35,600
And it would be, you know, well,
well, certainly the 

361
00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:38,800
circumstantial evidence for 
consummation would have been 

362
00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:42,560
weak. 
It it's kind of hard to, you 

363
00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:46,440
know, there's no DNA testing and
even then they're all related. 

364
00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:48,040
So that would be a little bit 
tricky. 

365
00:17:48,360 --> 00:17:50,320
Yeah, they all have the 
Targaryen DNA, right? 

366
00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:54,360
That's funny. 
So, yeah, so the fact that it's 

367
00:17:54,360 --> 00:17:58,640
towards the end of Baylor's 
reign, maybe she thought that, 

368
00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:02,760
you know, she could and even 
despite the the precedence of 

369
00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:07,880
the Great Council of 101 and you
know, the precedence of of Joe 

370
00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:12,720
Harris, the 1st that she might 
have been able to get, Damon 

371
00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:15,920
declared the error right then 
and there. 

372
00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:19,320
Absolutely. 
And there's some more backdrop 

373
00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:21,280
we need to make sure people are 
aware of here. 

374
00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:23,440
And that is that she may have 
felt the crown belonged to her 

375
00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:26,200
rather than her uncle, because 
after Baylor died, the crown 

376
00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:33,040
passed to Viserys the Second. 
But there was a brief movement, 

377
00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:37,000
a brief effort to consider 
crowning Dana because she was 

378
00:18:37,000 --> 00:18:39,240
the next in the line of 
succession. 

379
00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:44,840
If you do the all male issue 
followed by female issue plan 

380
00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:48,240
rather than the no women can 
inherit the throne plan. 

381
00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:50,800
Which of course that had been 
sort of decided by the Dance of 

382
00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:54,200
the Dragons, but it wasn't set 
in stone clearly, or else this 

383
00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:55,440
wouldn't have even been an 
issue. 

384
00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:59,080
Now Dana's isolation in the 
maiden vault prevented her from 

385
00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:00,200
having a lot of political 
allies. 

386
00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,400
So as well as Viserys being the 
Hand of the king for so long, 

387
00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,080
this this didn't amount to much.
But she that doesn't mean she 

388
00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:07,720
didn't feel it. 
That doesn't mean she didn't 

389
00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:12,440
feel like it belonged to her and
she may not have given up the 

390
00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:16,960
her chance to be close to the 
crown even though it was given 

391
00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:19,280
to Viserys and that would be 
through her son Damon that she 

392
00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:22,320
had with the later king. 
So here's another quote. 

393
00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:25,280
Though both of the sons of King 
Egon the Third were dead, his 

394
00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:27,480
three daughters yet survived, 
and there were some amongst the 

395
00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:30,560
small folk and even some Lords 
who felt that the Iron Throne 

396
00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:32,720
should buy rights now pass to 
Princess Dana. 

397
00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:35,320
They were few, however. 
A decade of isolation in the 

398
00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:37,680
Maiden Vault had left Dana and 
her sisters without powerful 

399
00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:40,800
allies and memories of the woes 
that had to fall in the realm. 

400
00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:43,200
And last a woman sat the Iron 
Throne were still fresh. 

401
00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:46,320
Dana the Defiant was seen by 
many Lords as being wild and 

402
00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:49,840
unmanageable besides, and wants 
him as well, For a year earlier 

403
00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:52,760
she had given birth to a bastard
son she named Damon, who's sire 

404
00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:55,680
she steadfastly refused to name.
The presidents of the Great 

405
00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:57,960
Council of 101 and the Dance of 
the Dragons were therefore 

406
00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:01,000
sighted and the claims of 
Baylor's sisters were set aside.

407
00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:04,280
Instead, the crown passed his 
uncle, the King's Hand Prince 

408
00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:06,480
Viserys. 
And that's just because she's 

409
00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:09,040
Targaryen, but because she was 
arguably the heir to the throne 

410
00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:10,280
instead of Viserys, like we 
said. 

411
00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:13,600
So this precedent made it easy 
for him to come out ahead. 

412
00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:16,880
Though her claim may have been 
easily brushed aside. 

413
00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:18,800
Like I said, her feelings 
doesn't. 

414
00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:21,440
Who knows what she felt. 
She may have felt really bad. 

415
00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:24,560
And this is a stubborn person, 
defiant. 

416
00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:26,880
And we talked last Black Fire 
episode about the possibility 

417
00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:28,680
that Aegon was the one who 
poisoned his own father. 

418
00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:31,480
It's possible that was Dana. 
Do you have any thoughts on 

419
00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:32,600
that, Stephen? 
Do you think that's even 

420
00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:35,080
remotely possible or is that is 
that kind of crackpot? 

421
00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:39,000
Certainly, it does seem that 
Dana preferred the the archery 

422
00:20:39,120 --> 00:20:41,040
poison. 
Yeah, it's true. 

423
00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:44,360
Viserys was not shot by arrows. 
And it seems like, you know, 

424
00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:50,120
yeah, her her personality would 
have would have tended more to a

425
00:20:50,120 --> 00:20:54,240
sort of an open confrontation 
rather than, you know, poison is

426
00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:58,360
is very subtle and past. 
But they say poison is a woman's

427
00:20:58,360 --> 00:21:00,880
weapon. 
No, but yeah. 

428
00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:02,040
But we don't have any evidence 
for that. 

429
00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:05,840
It's pure conjecture. 
Now, Dana did hate the Dornish, 

430
00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:09,160
we're pretty sure about that. 
That her her idolized brother, 

431
00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:11,240
as we just discussed, was killed
by them via treachery. 

432
00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:16,600
And the Saris's ascension to the
throne not only set aside Dana 

433
00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:19,800
and her potential ambitions, but
it also meant that eventually 

434
00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:22,480
1/2 Dornish Prince would sit the
throne. 

435
00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:25,160
And there are a lot of 
Targaryens and a lot of other 

436
00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:27,960
people who really are offended 
by that idea. 

437
00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:31,160
So how could Dana have prevented
this? 

438
00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:35,200
Well, the answer is she went off
and made her own Targaryen by, 

439
00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:38,120
you know, getting pregnant via 
Egon. 

440
00:21:38,120 --> 00:21:40,320
They're both Targaryens. 
They made themselves an incest 

441
00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:42,680
Targaryen. 
And this, the timing of this 

442
00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:47,000
pregnancy is really interesting.
She contrived to get pregnant. 

443
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:51,760
She planned on it, but it it was
within months of Prince Darren's

444
00:21:52,120 --> 00:21:56,880
wife Mariah getting pregnant 
with avenge the eventual bail or

445
00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:00,040
breaks beer. 
So perhaps that was the trigger.

446
00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:01,400
It was like now's the time to 
act. 

447
00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:05,400
There's we can see in the future
that there will be a Dornish 

448
00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:08,760
Prince sitting the Iron Throne. 
No more incest, no more 

449
00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:10,760
Targaryen traditions. 
That's a big deal. 

450
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:12,360
Traditions are a big deal in 
Westeros. 

451
00:22:12,360 --> 00:22:15,440
What do you think about that? 
Do you think that puts a little 

452
00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:18,480
a little extra color and the and
her possibilities there? 

453
00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:23,280
Yeah, I mean, you know, the, 
the, the timeline is all coming 

454
00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:26,280
together and there's so many 
motivations swirling around at 

455
00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:28,720
the same time. 
There's, you know, who, who 

456
00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:33,280
takes over after Baylor dies. 
You know, is it going to be a 

457
00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:35,240
Targaryen? 
Is it going, you know, and given

458
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:39,320
that Baylor's life itself had 
been, you know, so much sort of 

459
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:41,880
wrapped around this whole 
question of, you know, the 

460
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:45,520
Targaryen tradition of incest. 
So yeah, I could definitely see,

461
00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:50,680
you know, both Dana and Aegon 
deciding that they wanted to 

462
00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:56,000
establish a sort of a pure 
blooded alternative to, you 

463
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:58,120
know, the eventual Daryl on the 
second. 

464
00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:01,520
Yeah, yeah. 
Darnish encroachment, we'll say.

465
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:06,520
And how interesting that when I 
just, when I noticed that 

466
00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:07,680
timing, it really stood out to 
me. 

467
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,800
It was like, well, hmm, she 
intentionally got pregnant right

468
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:12,360
at that time. 
Interesting. 

469
00:23:12,360 --> 00:23:15,280
And then not long after Viserys 
died, you know, like a year, 

470
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:17,280
year and a half later, Viserys 
is dead too. 

471
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:19,320
Very interesting, very 
interesting. 

472
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:23,720
Anyway, that has to remain a 
mystery 'cause we have no 

473
00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:26,600
evidence for that. 
So. 

474
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:29,920
But there's another possibility 
here, concealing and it refer, 

475
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:32,760
it's Harkins back to what I just
said about the Dornish or the 

476
00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:35,800
poisoners. 
Now, well, I said the women and 

477
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:37,080
the poisoners, but that's what 
people say. 

478
00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:39,800
That's the thing, right? 
Poison is for women and Dornish 

479
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:42,800
men, whatever that saying is. 
It's said different ways by 

480
00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,680
different people. 
But maybe that's something she 

481
00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:49,640
had in mind. 
Maybe she was protecting Damon 

482
00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:52,560
by concealing his identity. 
I don't know. 

483
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:55,120
This is a bit of a stretch to 
me, but I think it bears mention

484
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:59,040
again if if she think buys into 
that propaganda of the Dornish 

485
00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:02,080
being poisoners. 
We don't know much about 

486
00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:05,840
Princess Mariah, Darren's wife. 
We don't know if she was the, 

487
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:08,640
you know, a nice person like 
Melissa Blackwood or a schemer 

488
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:10,560
like Barbara Bracken. 
No idea. 

489
00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:12,480
Somewhere in the middle. 
I have no idea at all. 

490
00:24:13,120 --> 00:24:17,840
So it's possible that Dana was 
worried about this child of 

491
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:19,240
hers, even though he was a 
bastard. 

492
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:21,160
I don't know. 
What do you think about this? 

493
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:24,920
Yeah, I I learn more towards 
this sort of idea that she was 

494
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:28,040
hedging her bets in terms of 
trying to pass him off as as 

495
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:30,440
Baylor's kid. 
OK, so that we I gave her the 

496
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:34,600
option of of naming the father 
later based on whatever the 

497
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:36,120
political climate was at the 
time. 

498
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,040
Makes sense. 
Play her cards close to her 

499
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:39,960
chest. 
I like it. 

500
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:46,200
Now Aegon of course, as we know,
did not claim Dana as one of his

501
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:48,600
nine great loves amongst his 
many mistresses. 

502
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,520
I wouldn't even say that she was
ever his mistress, really. 

503
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:54,600
Apparently they only slept 
together the one time. 

504
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:56,960
Maybe more than once, but 
certainly she doesn't qualify as

505
00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:58,600
a mistress. 
But either way, he doesn't. 

506
00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:01,320
He didn't seem to love her, and 
maybe she didn't I I can't 

507
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:03,880
imagine that she really liked 
him that much either given the 

508
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:07,640
types of men she was she 
respected and was attracted to. 

509
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:09,680
As far as we know, Aegon's the 
opposite. 

510
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:12,800
So. 
But not when he was young 

511
00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:14,440
enough. 
Not when he was young so, but 

512
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,880
over time when as he got fat and
greedy and lusty. 

513
00:25:18,360 --> 00:25:20,320
There's no way she continued to 
respect him if she ever did. 

514
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:22,920
But that doesn't mean she didn't
have influence over him. 

515
00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:25,080
Though the personalities are 
different here. 

516
00:25:25,120 --> 00:25:28,280
Consider this possible parallel 
to Robert's deathbed and Aegon 

517
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:31,240
the Unworthy, setting aside the 
fact that they were both lusty, 

518
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:34,000
gluttonous, formerly promising 
kings. 

519
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:36,600
No, that's not where we're 
going, as fun as that is. 

520
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:38,680
We're talking the politics of 
succession here. 

521
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:42,480
Dana convinces Aegon to 
legitimize his bachelor children

522
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:45,000
on his deathbed. 
Consider that possibility again.

523
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:47,440
Aegon may not have been the one 
to have that idea. 

524
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:48,960
Of course. 
The idea had been around for a 

525
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:50,600
while. 
The idea of Aegon legitimizing 

526
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:52,640
one of his bastards. 
The whole idea of legitimizing 

527
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:55,080
all of them. 
I don't know if Dana suggested 

528
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:58,160
that or if it was his own idea, 
but I love the I love 

529
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:00,840
considering the possibility that
someone else gave him that idea.

530
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:04,000
So, Ned Stark, compare this 
parallel here. 

531
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,160
Ned Stark gets Robert to 
unwittingly delegitimize his own

532
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:08,920
children because they're 
actually bastards. 

533
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:11,040
And this didn't work because 
Cersei used the threat of 

534
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:13,760
violence and the General and 
General Corruption court to cast

535
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,880
aside Robert's proclamation. 
Only Sir Barristan reacted to 

536
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:20,520
Cersei shredding Robert's will. 
But dare on the good is no 

537
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:22,520
Cersei. 
He's not going to do that sort 

538
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:23,520
of thing. 
He was pious. 

539
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,880
He was lawful, he did things by 
the book for the most part, as 

540
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:28,920
far as we know. 
So whether this particular 

541
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:32,880
imagining of the circumstances 
is remotely accurate or not, 

542
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:35,200
Darren did not challenge the 
legitimizations. 

543
00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:40,120
They stood regardless of why 
they happened or who suggested 

544
00:26:40,120 --> 00:26:41,680
it. 
But we're not there yet. 

545
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:42,960
We're getting ahead of 
ourselves. 

546
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:44,520
The point of all this though, it
does have a point. 

547
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:46,120
We're not getting ahead of 
ourselves for no reason. 

548
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:48,880
It's a show where Damon got a 
lot of his attitudes this the 

549
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:51,240
attitudes of his mother and his 
father towards the Dornish, 

550
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:53,880
towards these other things. 
Even though Damon didn't know 

551
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,720
who his father was, Aegon was 
still going to be an influential

552
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,960
guy, being the heir to the 
throne, being a a Prince, 

553
00:26:59,960 --> 00:27:03,680
etcetera. 
So later we'll see how Fireball 

554
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,720
and Bittersteel and some other 
Lords and Knights of the realm 

555
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:08,720
encouraged Damon to take the the
crown. 

556
00:27:09,120 --> 00:27:12,560
But he may have been on that 
path from day one via his 

557
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,680
mother, Dana the Defiant. 
He was certainly set on a path 

558
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,400
to succeed. 
Raised at the Red Keep, this 

559
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:20,800
handsome youth was given the 
instruction of the wisest 

560
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:23,800
maesters and the best masters at
arms at court, including Sir 

561
00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:26,280
Quentin Ball, the fiery knight 
called Fireball. 

562
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:29,360
He loved nothing better than 
deeds of arms and excelled at 

563
00:27:29,360 --> 00:27:32,320
them, and many saw in him a 
warrior who would one day be 

564
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,480
another Dragon Knight. 
Now, it's unclear what age he is

565
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:38,160
for this quote, but regardless, 
the Dragon Knight had died 

566
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,600
fairly recently. 
He died a hero, and he lived as 

567
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,920
one too, so the fact that people
were making comparisons to him 

568
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:46,640
is a very big deal. 
Damon was charming, Marshall 

569
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,560
courtly, thus popular. 
He was also kind of 

570
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:52,840
unthreatening because despite 
all that appeal, he was Damon 

571
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:55,760
Waters. 
Despite his Targaryen looks and 

572
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:58,480
talent, he was bastard and we 
all know what that means in 

573
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:00,600
Westeros. 
Besides, his father liked him 

574
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:03,480
even during the time before he 
admitted he was his father. 

575
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,720
One wonders if being a bastard 
wasn't slightly less bad back 

576
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:07,800
then. 
What do you think Steve? 

577
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:09,600
Do you think bastard? 
Do you think that black fire 

578
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,960
rebellions, the whole black fire
situation made the made bastards

579
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:16,320
look down even more? 
Or you think it was just more of

580
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:17,720
the same? 
Or that Damon transcended some 

581
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:19,520
of. 
That I think it certainly didn't

582
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,080
help. 
I mean, you know, the, the, I 

583
00:28:22,120 --> 00:28:24,640
think the classic example here 
is if you look at the way that 

584
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:30,440
Catelyn brings up the black 
fires over and over again, you 

585
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:36,480
know, it's certainly seems to 
have put a kind of taboo or kind

586
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,560
of prejudice against 
legitimizing Basque. 

587
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:46,640
Right on. 
What did Damon make of his own 

588
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:48,720
situation? 
What do you think he Do you 

589
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,360
think he knew who his father 
was? 

590
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:54,560
Do you think he had any thoughts
on that? 

591
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:57,400
Do you think the other kids 
called him names for not having 

592
00:28:57,400 --> 00:28:58,720
a father? 
Damon. 

593
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,960
No, dad. 
Damon waters in his breeches. 

594
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:06,080
And what do you think he made of
Aegon before knowing he was his 

595
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:07,880
father? 
I mean, he's this lusty, greedy 

596
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:09,280
guy. 
I don't think you don't think 

597
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:11,880
Damon would have liked that. 
It's kind of an interesting 

598
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:14,680
conundrum there. 
Yeah, I mean, you know it. 

599
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:18,920
It's hard to say because, you 
know, obviously, you know, while

600
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:22,120
his mother kept Shtum in public,
we don't know what she told him 

601
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:25,280
in private. 
Certainly he might have had his 

602
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:27,880
own suspicions. 
I mean, clearly, you know, just 

603
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,600
by looking in the mirror, he 
was, he must have been pretty 

604
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:35,960
clear that he was a Targaryen on
both sides, you know, 'cause if 

605
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:39,080
you just sort of look and, you 
know, he, he just needed to look

606
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:42,200
at his, his relatives really and
just sort of see, well, OK, 

607
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:44,720
Baylor doesn't look anything 
like me. 

608
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:48,400
You know, the, the thing about 
Aegon the 4th, though, is, you 

609
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:53,720
know, he was, for all that he 
was a drunk and a letcher, you 

610
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,720
know, and just sort of unable to
kind of rein in his. 

611
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:00,880
He also had that kind of Henry 
the charisma going on. 

612
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:06,560
So, you know, there might be the
sort of attitude of like, you 

613
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:09,680
know, he might have been told 
about, you know, what his dad 

614
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,640
was like when he was young. 
That's true. 

615
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:16,240
He he might have had a kind of 
a, a kind of a rivalry thing. 

616
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:18,360
He's like, you know, showing 
that he can outdo his dad. 

617
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,320
I agree with that. 
You know, kind of follow through

618
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:23,840
on on the potential and actually
make something of it. 

619
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:30,360
You know, it's possible that he 
just, you know, either didn't 

620
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:34,200
have a kind of and sorry, the 
what I was going for. 

621
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:36,920
It's possible he'd sort of 
displaced his kind of male role 

622
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:41,840
model thing onto Fireball or, 
you know, other sort of strong 

623
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:45,000
male figures in his life. 
That makes sense. 

624
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,040
A fireball would probably be one
of the most important ones. 

625
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:50,680
Maybe some of the Kingsguard 
would be good examples as well. 

626
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,280
Not knowing exactly which 
Kingsguard, we don't even know 

627
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:55,840
all their names at that time, 
but that's a good possibility. 

628
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,080
I like that idea. 
And you know, despite how bad 

629
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:01,160
Aegon's court was, it probably 
wasn't that bad for Damon 

630
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:05,200
because, you know, he, he had 
his mother around his, his life 

631
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:07,560
is probably fairly simple 
because he wasn't the target of 

632
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:11,600
Damon, of Aegon's excesses. 
He wasn't in the, you know, in 

633
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:15,840
his political wheelhouse in any 
way being so young. 

634
00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:20,200
So he was probably pretty safe 
despite court being dangerous 

635
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:21,720
for a lot of people, especially 
young women. 

636
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:26,400
And he might have learned a few 
things about intrigue, about 

637
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:29,360
courtly life. 
We certainly think of him as a 

638
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:31,800
warrior, but he obviously got 
involved in politics. 

639
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:33,840
And we'll we'll touch on more of
that later when he's a bit 

640
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:37,120
older, but he had to Start 
learning some things about, you 

641
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:39,760
know, the Game of Thrones and 
and training, especially. 

642
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:41,920
Definitely training. 
Let's look a little bit more 

643
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:43,800
Speaking of rivalries, let's 
look a little more about who he 

644
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:45,080
grew up with. 
There's a couple of interesting 

645
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:47,960
possibilities here. 
Baylor breaks beer again. 

646
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:52,880
As we said, he was born only a 
maybe six months, maybe as few 

647
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,880
as four months, somewhere in 
that range before David 

648
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:57,360
Blackfash. 
So they grew up together, side 

649
00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:00,640
by side, potentially the whole 
for many, many years. 

650
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,560
Now, if Dana had any sort of 
dislike, A rivalry with Princess

651
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:06,840
Moriah, do you think that that 
could bleed over? 

652
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:09,000
I really have a hard time 
struggling with whether or not 

653
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,560
these two got along. 
They had a lot in common, yet 

654
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:14,480
they also had some big things 
that could have put it driven a 

655
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:16,480
wedge between them. 
What's your take on that? 

656
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,800
Yeah. 
You know, I, I think ultimately 

657
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:23,360
a friendship was probably 
outside of the realm of 

658
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:25,000
possibilities. 
There's just too many sort of 

659
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:29,520
structural factors, you know, 
that that would kind of strain 

660
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,200
affections. 
But, you know, I could 

661
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:35,200
definitely see, you know, 
certainly I think there must 

662
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:36,880
have been an element of rivalry 
there. 

663
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:40,840
The two guys were just too good,
too competitive not to have some

664
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:44,120
element of rivalry. 
But at the same time, both of 

665
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:46,840
them are known for being 
extremely chivalrous. 

666
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:51,920
And that kind of code of 
behavior would structure 

667
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:55,080
relationships between the two of
them that you know, even if you 

668
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:58,440
dislike the other person, even 
if you desperately want to beat 

669
00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:01,240
them, you have to be gracious in
public. 

670
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:05,280
You have to be a good sportsman.
Yeah, it's true. 

671
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:09,040
I my one of my takes on this is 
I think that the two of them, I 

672
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:12,360
have no idea how they got along 
without outside influences. 

673
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:15,880
I would think that Dana and 
probably Aegon the 4th as well 

674
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:19,040
wouldn't have wanted them to get
close, but I think Deron would 

675
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:20,760
have because that's Deron's way 
of doing things. 

676
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:23,800
Deron was a was a peace through 
personal relationships kind of 

677
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:24,920
guy. 
Like that's what he did with the

678
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:27,480
great bastards himself. 
He kept them close later. 

679
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:28,840
We'll see how that might have 
backfired on him. 

680
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:33,280
But given his attitudes, I bet 
that's what he had in my I bet 

681
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:36,240
he wanted them to be friends. 
He may have looked in the, you 

682
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:38,960
know, seen ahead and expected 
that this could be problematic 

683
00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:41,000
if they weren't friends. 
Yeah, he might have been right. 

684
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:43,880
What about some of the other 
kids at court at the time? 

685
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:48,960
Darren's other children after 
Baylor, Ares, Regal and Makar. 

686
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:53,160
Now Makar would probably have 
been a good 5-6 years younger. 

687
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:55,640
These dates are a little loose. 
We don't know exactly when these

688
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:57,080
guys were born. 
They were all born within a 

689
00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:02,560
range of about 171 to 178. 
Aries and Regal they don't have.

690
00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:05,600
I mean Regal was kind of crazy. 
Aries was bookish, not not the 

691
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:09,679
warrior type. 
So Damon and him maybe didn't 

692
00:34:09,679 --> 00:34:12,679
interact a lot. 
But Makar, Makar is 1 I think 

693
00:34:12,679 --> 00:34:14,040
about. 
What do you think of Makar and 

694
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:15,600
Damon? 
I mean, it's interesting, you 

695
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:20,520
know, I, yeah, you definitely 
get the sense that Makar was not

696
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:24,960
someone who made, who played 
well with others, you know, 

697
00:34:25,199 --> 00:34:28,920
someone who definitely would 
have not been a great sport at 

698
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:32,120
losing anything. 
And, you know, the, I think the 

699
00:34:32,159 --> 00:34:37,040
age gap also would have played a
role there, that Damon is, you 

700
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:41,080
know, older, has seniority over 
him, so to speak, certainly 

701
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:43,000
would have been bigger and 
taller and so forth. 

702
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:46,679
And I think that of all the 
people he'd be the most prideful

703
00:34:46,679 --> 00:34:49,040
about, like a bastard being put 
above him in any way. 

704
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:53,480
Given his reaction to Bloodraven
being made Hand later. 

705
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:55,040
That's that's part of where I 
get that guess. 

706
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:58,520
So not sure about that, but it 
seems to be logical. 

707
00:34:59,240 --> 00:35:02,480
But then there's the really big 
one, moving away from the men. 

708
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,680
There's Daenerys Targaryen, the 
one that he supposedly loved. 

709
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:08,960
Now, interestingly, we don't 
really know if she loved him. 

710
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:11,280
We know that he loved her. 
That's pretty straightforward. 

711
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:14,520
Now, it's interesting, right? 
Or do you have a different take 

712
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:15,960
on that? 
You maybe she, maybe you don't 

713
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:16,520
think he did. 
Yeah. 

714
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:21,440
There's there's actually a quote
from Sospic Martin where he 

715
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:23,680
basically says that they it was 
a mutual. 

716
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:25,080
Effect. 
OK. 

717
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:26,440
So it is confirmed. 
Excellent. 

718
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:30,080
That's good to know. 
Now, obviously, you know, love 

719
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:33,560
does not always last, so it's 
possible that, you know, she 

720
00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:37,040
loved him for a while and then 
moved on and he never did. 

721
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:40,320
Although, as we'll talk about 
later, he does marry someone 

722
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:43,520
else, so. 
Yeah, he marries someone else. 

723
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:46,000
And it's weird that this became 
a thing. 

724
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:48,800
It kind of in retrospect, it's 
it's it's almost like the 

725
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:52,000
singers made a bigger deal out 
of it than anyone else ever did.

726
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:53,640
Of course, singers do that all 
the time. 

727
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:56,360
That's nothing new. 
But it it's interesting. 

728
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:58,960
If you all anyone who missed the
detail that Daenerys and Damon 

729
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:02,240
grew up together, they're only 
two years apart in age, roughly.

730
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:04,520
That's pretty major. 
I understand. 

731
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:06,600
It can explain why they, you 
know, could, could have fallen 

732
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:08,440
in love at a young age. 
Well, they almost certainly did.

733
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:10,800
And. 
But like you said, childhood 

734
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:14,760
love doesn't always last. 
And another interesting quirk 

735
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:18,200
here, Baylor is her nephew, 
though he's older. 

736
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:21,560
Yeah, that's because Argonne the
4th had his kids so far apart. 

737
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:25,000
One wonders if he was protective
of her or if he can considered 

738
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:26,680
her as a possible bride for 
himself. 

739
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:30,720
Probably not because Daron 
didn't want the incest stuff 

740
00:36:30,720 --> 00:36:32,880
happening and so he probably 
part of that on to Baylor. 

741
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:34,920
And if he did, Daron would have 
discouraged it. 

742
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:39,280
So and it didn't happen. 
Well, let's talk about some of 

743
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:43,000
the other bastards. 
What about Agor Rivers, who 

744
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:46,120
would have been around around 
172? 

745
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:49,080
Of course, we're going to do a 
whole episode on him, so we 

746
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:50,360
don't need to get too deep into 
here. 

747
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,400
But we do want to talk about his
potential early influence on 

748
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:55,280
Damon and vice versa. 
What do you? 

749
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:57,840
What's your take on that? 
Well, that's the that's the 

750
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:01,160
tricky thing with Agor is that 
we don't know when he comes back

751
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:04,080
into the picture. 
Now, I don't get the sense that 

752
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:09,120
Agor was exactly a secret, right
because of the great bastards. 

753
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:14,600
He was the one who Aegon the 4th
actually went and visited away 

754
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:18,040
from King's land. 
The Riverlands is not exactly 

755
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:20,880
hugely far from the capital 
either. 

756
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:27,200
So, you know, it's quite 
possible that Damon and Agor met

757
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:31,840
at some point. 
They would have a sort of a 

758
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:36,120
potentially a shared sense of 
grievance and a similar identity

759
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:39,760
as great bastards. 
That Damon, you know, had 

760
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:43,240
probably been told from a very 
young age that he should have 

761
00:37:43,240 --> 00:37:47,320
been king. 
And here is Agor, another 

762
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:51,000
bastard who's been wrong, who 
has been denied his birthright 

763
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:53,920
and set aside. 
So you can definitely see that 

764
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:55,680
there might be some mutual 
sympathies. 

765
00:37:55,840 --> 00:38:00,320
They're also both very skilled 
swordsmen and, and, and soldiers

766
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:03,360
in general, so you know, there's
possibly that as well. 

767
00:38:03,720 --> 00:38:06,560
Appreciate a theory handed over 
to us by Rainey's Targaryen 

768
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:10,920
which was that she believes the 
best option for Agor returning 

769
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:14,400
to court would be right after 
Agon died and that makes that 

770
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:16,600
fits. 
Yeah, when he's he's newly 

771
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:18,920
legitimate. 
Right when he's he's newly 

772
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:22,040
legitimized and we know that he 
trained with fireball it when 

773
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:23,440
his family was sent away from 
court. 

774
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:25,040
He was too young to have trained
with fireball. 

775
00:38:25,240 --> 00:38:27,480
Plus he fought with blood Raven 
over sheer sea star. 

776
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:28,760
He's not going to do that from 
afar. 

777
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:31,680
You don't when he's not doing 
that by by Raven. 

778
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:35,480
He's also not encouraging gay 
men to become king by Raven. 

779
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:37,680
That's that's personal chats 
right there. 

780
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:39,920
And. 
And it requires, you know, in 

781
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:43,400
addition to sort of face to face
communication, you need a, a, a 

782
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:47,920
relationship, you need, you 
know, some deep levels of trust 

783
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:50,160
to ensure that the other person 
is not just going to rat you 

784
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:51,800
out. 
Yeah, exactly. 

785
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:55,640
And that's that explains also 
probably how bitter Steel got to

786
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:59,160
marry his daughter. 
Yeah, and Agor was about 12 when

787
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:01,280
when A got the course A. 
Little like a yeah a year 

788
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:05,000
younger. 
So he would have been, you know,

789
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:08,000
just the right age to start to 
start training an arm. 

790
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:10,400
Yeah, it's perfect. 
Yeah, it really fits nicely. 

791
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:17,720
And I I also don't think that he
could have, you know, convinced 

792
00:39:17,720 --> 00:39:21,320
Damon to give his daughter's 
hand in marriage to him without 

793
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:23,640
that kind of connection. 
So, yeah, it's pretty clear that

794
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:26,680
they at least spend a couple 
years together at court. 

795
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:29,840
Probably the last few years 
right before the rebellion. 

796
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:32,360
He may have we'll talk about 
where where Bitter Steel was 

797
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:34,000
when the rebellion actually 
broke out later. 

798
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:37,520
He may have been to court, maybe
not, but it's interesting stuff.

799
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:41,000
So, but the final important 
character who would have grown 

800
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:44,400
up around Damon, of course, is 
Blood Raven himself, Brendan 

801
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:46,040
Rivers. 
He's about five years younger 

802
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:49,400
than Damon. 
So it's interesting. 

803
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:53,080
We have a quote from A Song of 
Ice and Fire much later from 

804
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:56,520
Blood Raven, where he says there
was a brother he loved, a 

805
00:39:56,520 --> 00:39:59,120
brother he hated, and a woman he
desired. 

806
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:01,520
Well, we know the woman he 
desired is Sierra Sea Star. 

807
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:04,120
The brother he hated was clearly
Bitter Steel. 

808
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:06,360
The brother he loved. 
That's harder. 

809
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:09,200
Did he love Damon Blackfire or 
did he love Daron? 

810
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:11,080
They're both his brothers. 
They're both his half brothers 

811
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:12,600
and there's good arguments for 
both. 

812
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:14,400
Who do you think he's referring 
to personally? 

813
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:17,120
Stephen. 
I, I come down on the side that 

814
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:22,000
I think it's Damon because it 
works better with George RR 

815
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:25,720
Martin's theme of sort of the 
human heart at war with itself. 

816
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:30,280
I mean, ultimately, you know, if
he was, if he cared more about 

817
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:33,720
dare on to begin with, there's 
no real conflict, there's no 

818
00:40:33,720 --> 00:40:36,720
real drama there. 
But you know, in a literal civil

819
00:40:36,720 --> 00:40:40,400
war of brother against brother, 
if he's having to go to war 

820
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:43,600
against the brother he loves out
of a sense of what's right for 

821
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:47,200
the the realm, you know, or, you
know, possibly just hating 

822
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,840
bitter steel that much. 
I think that that is the more 

823
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:54,000
sort of, you know, interesting 
scenario, especially given how 

824
00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:57,280
they the two of them very 
personal in clash during the 

825
00:40:57,280 --> 00:40:58,640
war. 
Absolutely. 

826
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:02,440
Now of course, we'll be doing an
episode on on blood. 

827
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:05,200
Raven will be a lot more on him,
so we won't spend too much time 

828
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:06,640
on him right now. 
But there may have been other 

829
00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:09,560
bastards of Agons around at 
court or you know, focus is 

830
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:11,120
always on the great bastard. 
But there were others. 

831
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:12,160
There were some who were 
nameless. 

832
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:13,800
Some of them may have been at 
court, but some of them weren't 

833
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:14,880
nameless. 
We just don't know anything 

834
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:17,720
about them besides their names. 
So these are kind of nameless, 

835
00:41:17,720 --> 00:41:19,600
faceless others. 
We can't say much about them, 

836
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:21,720
but it's interesting to note 
that they were probably around. 

837
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:24,960
But there was Princess Elena's 
kids, sister to Dana the 

838
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:27,280
Defiant. 
She had twins with Oakenfest 

839
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:30,160
John and Jane Waters. 
We don't know their exact ages, 

840
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:33,160
but it was sometime between 171 
and 176. 

841
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:38,960
So as early as just after 
Damon's birth to around bitter 

842
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:43,320
rather blood Raven's birth time.
The perfect age for them to be 

843
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:44,920
there, just a few years younger 
than Damon. 

844
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:48,280
That's the perfect age for them 
to idolize him as a fellow 

845
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:51,480
Waters at court. 
But you never know, they may 

846
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:53,080
have hated him. 
Now there would have been other 

847
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:54,920
influences around court, not 
just the kids. 

848
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:57,160
There would have been these 
adults, especially these who 

849
00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:01,240
both who would have been charmed
by him, by his youthful charisma

850
00:42:01,240 --> 00:42:05,080
and his, you know, clear 
upcomingness. 

851
00:42:05,720 --> 00:42:07,480
Quentin Ball. 
We mentioned the King's Guard, 

852
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:11,080
potentially, especially this 
Gwen Corbray fellow who he's 

853
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:13,760
going to fight at the Battle of 
the Redgrass Field later. 

854
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:17,000
And we wonder, did they have a 
relationship before this epic 

855
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:18,480
duel? 
Did they know each other? 

856
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:20,680
That just makes it even more 
tragic. 

857
00:42:20,720 --> 00:42:22,200
I mean they must have known each
other. 

858
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:23,360
Right. 
Yeah, unless he was a recent 

859
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:25,280
addition. 
They, they must have known each 

860
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:28,680
other, you know, at, at, at a 
basic level, 'cause they would 

861
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:31,480
have spent years in, in one 
another's company cause 'cause 

862
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:34,880
Damon lived at court for, for a 
lot of his life. 

863
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:37,520
But you know, how close that 
relationship was. 

864
00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:39,320
Were they friends? 
Were they rivals? 

865
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:42,080
Were they near acquaintances? 
I don't know. 

866
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:44,640
I, I think it works better 
dramatically if they were 

867
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:47,960
friends because then, you know, 
again, it's that sort of finding

868
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:51,560
yourself on the opposite end of 
a battlefield in the time of 

869
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:53,880
civil war thing. 
I think that works a little bit 

870
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:56,080
more dramatically, but we don't 
know. 

871
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:00,240
It's true, George loves to do 
that and it would just be kind 

872
00:43:00,240 --> 00:43:03,280
of heart wrenching is both blood
Raven and a guy like Wayne 

873
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:05,600
Corbrae really like Damon and 
they just had to fight him. 

874
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:09,520
Blood Raven would have been he 
might have had a lot of self 

875
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:11,800
loathing for killing Damon or 
maybe he just like, no, I had to

876
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:12,480
do it. 
That's it. 

877
00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:16,160
You know, I got to do my job and
same with Corbrae and that, you 

878
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:19,480
know, Damon was a chivalrous 
guy, but we know quite famously 

879
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:22,240
that he when when he defeated 
Gwen Korbra, he made sure his 

880
00:43:22,240 --> 00:43:24,720
body was well cared for and the 
major took care of him and that 

881
00:43:24,720 --> 00:43:26,480
cost him. 
Is that evidence of their 

882
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:29,080
friendship or is that just 
evidence of his chivalry? 

883
00:43:30,240 --> 00:43:34,560
No way to know. 
Finally, as far as that court in

884
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:38,080
these early days, just as 
important but less noticed, 

885
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:41,760
Aegon's corrupt court, they're, 
we don't know the names of these

886
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:43,200
people, but they were 
lickspittles. 

887
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:45,440
They were flatterers. 
They get told Aegon what he 

888
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:49,240
wanted to hear. 
They gave him they, they helped 

889
00:43:49,240 --> 00:43:52,040
him satisfy his desires. 
And we don't know these people's

890
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:53,280
names, but we know they were 
there. 

891
00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:56,120
They're referred to many times. 
They're important though, 

892
00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:57,680
despite not having names for 
them. 

893
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:01,080
Later, when Deron ascends to the
throne, he's going to clean 

894
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:02,440
house to try to end this 
corruption. 

895
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:04,840
He's going to kick a lot of 
these guys out of office. 

896
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:07,920
Ambitious people don't just stop
being ambitious because they get

897
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:09,960
kicked out of office. 
Who do you think they're going 

898
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:13,400
to turn to when Damon Blackfire 
begins to emerge? 

899
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:15,680
Who do you think they're going 
to support? 

900
00:44:15,720 --> 00:44:18,000
The guys who got kicked out of 
office by Deron? 

901
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:20,360
Of course they're going to turn 
to Damon. 

902
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:22,800
Of course. 
They're going to add their power

903
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:23,960
to his cause. 
Of course. 

904
00:44:24,240 --> 00:44:28,080
They're going to encourage him 
to take the throne in exchange 

905
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:29,560
for getting their positions 
back, of course. 

906
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:32,640
So that's kind of bad for Damon 
to have characters like that on 

907
00:44:32,640 --> 00:44:37,680
his side, but there you go. 
Now another major issue at court

908
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:41,600
outside of the people as far as 
things going on. 

909
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:45,520
Aegon's attempts to invade dorm 
awkward not just because of how 

910
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:48,120
badly the actual war efforts 
went, but because his own 

911
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:51,440
grandchild, not to mention his 
son's wife, were Dornish. 

912
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:54,960
Darren was a strong Prince and 
was able to prevent some of his 

913
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:58,360
father's aggressive plans, but 
his father resented this and 

914
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:02,600
began that famous intrigue. 
Now, King Aegon, well before was

915
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:05,200
public knowledge that Damon was 
his son, began to threaten to 

916
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:08,080
set aside Prince Daron. 
This would keep the Dornish 

917
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:10,560
blood from reaching the throne. 
But of course, we know he's not 

918
00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:14,680
actually ever going to do it. 
Now, given this, and the near 

919
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:17,240
certainty we discussed earlier 
that Dana hated the Dornish too,

920
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:21,560
well, you've got a boy whose 
parents both hated Dorn, though 

921
00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:24,560
he would later have at least a 
couple of Dornish allies. 

922
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:27,760
Damon himself was quite likely 
among those who dislike Dorn, or

923
00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:30,160
at least he had a lot of people 
encouraging him to, a lot of 

924
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:32,600
role models. 
So when we see years later how a

925
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:35,520
lot of Lords and Knights were 
unhappy with Dornish influence 

926
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:37,920
at court and with the king, 
well, that says a bit a lot 

927
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:41,960
already, doesn't it? 
In short, Damon found natural 

928
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:44,600
allies with those who shared 
these feelings, and these early 

929
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:46,840
years would have been when these
feelings were established and 

930
00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:49,720
made known. 
So these guys who if Damon's 

931
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:53,400
dislike of the Dornish, if that 
was a thing at all, that would 

932
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:55,400
have gotten attention and he 
would have started getting 

933
00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:57,480
allies from a very early age. 
People who looked at him as an 

934
00:45:57,480 --> 00:46:00,160
up and Comer, someone perhaps to
put throw their ambition behind 

935
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:02,120
later. 
It may have been these people 

936
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:05,160
who who encouraged Aegon to 
start the rumors of Darren's 

937
00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:08,120
bastardy, in fact, and we're 
looking for culprits for that. 

938
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:10,800
These guys are prime candidates.
What do you think of that, 

939
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:12,200
Steven? 
Do you think that some of these 

940
00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:14,360
what, what or or any other thing
you want to attribute to these 

941
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:17,880
shadowy figures? 
I mean, well, you know, in 

942
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:20,440
addition to the sort of the 
usual spoilsmanship, I mean, you

943
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:22,560
know, we can guess at who some 
of these people were. 

944
00:46:23,720 --> 00:46:27,080
Butterwell Lofts. 
I can never pronounce that 

945
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:27,920
right. 
Lofts. 

946
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:31,160
You. 
Know, those are certainly prime 

947
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:32,720
candidates. 
There must have been others 

948
00:46:32,720 --> 00:46:36,840
because the royal bureaucracy 
is, is, you know, not huge, but 

949
00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:40,440
it's significant. 
And, you know, the, the 

950
00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:44,520
interesting thing, you know, for
me is given the sort of 

951
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:50,880
ambiguity about when he knew, 
you know, this period must have 

952
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:54,000
been very interesting for Damon.
Because if he did, if he was 

953
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:59,560
told ahead of time that he was 
Aegon's son, then every time 

954
00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:03,640
that rumor comes up, every time 
that that Aegon threatens to 

955
00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:06,960
disinherit his son, it's like 
he's getting right to the edge 

956
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:10,240
of being named the Crown Prince 
of Westeros. 

957
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:13,760
That's true. 
And then having that pulled back

958
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:17,320
and that, you know, that could 
really do a number on you. 

959
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:22,560
And of course, because of the 
the marriage alliances, the 

960
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:28,440
nature of legitimacy is very 
much tied to the politics that 

961
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:32,600
if you are pro Dorn, then you 
believe that Deron is 

962
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:34,400
legitimate. 
If you're not, then not. 

963
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:39,680
And for Damon himself, this is 
extremely personal, right? 

964
00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:44,360
Because the only thing that 
anyone could ever say against 

965
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:45,720
him is that he's a bastard, 
right? 

966
00:47:45,720 --> 00:47:47,160
He's too good at everything 
else. 

967
00:47:47,720 --> 00:47:49,240
Yeah. 
There's really nothing to insult

968
00:47:49,240 --> 00:47:52,720
him with. 
So the idea that his major 

969
00:47:52,720 --> 00:47:55,800
rival, right, That, you know, 
'cause it's not just, you know, 

970
00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:58,520
what he himself feels or you 
know just what his mother says, 

971
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:00,600
But everyone is comparing the 
two of them. 

972
00:48:01,160 --> 00:48:05,360
Yeah. 
It's very, it's a, it's a public

973
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:07,760
process. 
So the knowledge, you know, or 

974
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:12,120
the, the, the possibility that 
his rival might be the bastard 

975
00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:17,520
and he might be the rightful 
that you know, that's a really 

976
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:21,120
powerful drive then. 
And it's intoxicating and he, 

977
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:22,920
and it's not like, like you 
said, there's no evidence one 

978
00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:24,560
way or another. 
If he, if he's bought into the 

979
00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:27,400
story, he'll believe it. 
There's no, it's not like 

980
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:30,120
there's anything to disprove it.
And if he once he believes it, 

981
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:33,120
he takes it because it's partly 
because it's self-serving and 

982
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:35,080
partly because so many people, 
other people believe it. 

983
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:38,080
There's no way to to convince 
him that he's wrong. 

984
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:40,640
It's just, it's all hearsay. 
It's all just opinion. 

985
00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:43,480
So it's, it's it's very 
interesting that way. 

986
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:45,360
And I think that's how a lot of 
other, a lot of the supporters 

987
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:47,120
on both sides felt. 
They just like, no, this is the 

988
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:48,840
truth. 
They just both believe in their 

989
00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:52,160
version of reality and they're 
there's no nothing to gainsay 

990
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:56,640
either side really. 
Now to compound this issue of 

991
00:48:56,640 --> 00:49:01,440
Dornish hatred from potentially 
from Damon and certainly from 

992
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:05,080
Dana and Aegon, we go back to 
Daenerys for a moment. 

993
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:09,560
Now consider that anti Dornish 
sentiment when you consider the 

994
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:13,440
Daenerys was some people saw her
as being sold to the Dornish. 

995
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:17,320
So it's not just that Damon lost
to Daenerys, it's that he lost 

996
00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:19,920
her to them, to the hated 
Dornish. 

997
00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:22,360
Now, the singer is, like we said
earlier, they played up this 

998
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:25,120
relationship perhaps well more 
than it should have been. 

999
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:28,280
And some of them say it's the 
biggest reason Damon rebelled. 

1000
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:29,840
Well, that's taking it too far. 
Clearly. 

1001
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:32,960
Now, the World of Ice and Fire's
majorly point of view downplays 

1002
00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:35,920
the relationship by pointing to 
how far apart Daenerys marriage 

1003
00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:39,040
when Damon was 16 or 17 and the 
Black Fire Rebellion was. 

1004
00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:41,280
He was 2627. 
The truth is probably somewhere 

1005
00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:42,560
in between. 
It probably did matter. 

1006
00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:45,400
But as we know, there were a lot
of reasons Damon rebelled. 

1007
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:49,040
It wasn't just one thing. 
Now, for one thing, there's also

1008
00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:52,360
not a very good thing 'cause to 
get behind, if you're rebelling 

1009
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:55,080
because you didn't get the girl,
that's just not a lot of, that's

1010
00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:57,040
not a good political statement 
to make. 

1011
00:49:57,040 --> 00:49:59,720
It's not like, yeah, follow me, 
I'm the guy who didn't get the 

1012
00:49:59,720 --> 00:50:01,640
Princess he wanted. 
That's it's nothing you can get 

1013
00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:04,640
behind. 
Much will be made of how many 

1014
00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:07,480
loved him for his prowess, even 
at a very young age. 

1015
00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:09,680
But that's also not enough to 
get behind. 

1016
00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:11,720
So what could these people get 
behind? 

1017
00:50:11,720 --> 00:50:15,200
What was the what was the 
tangible thing that Damon 

1018
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:17,280
offered that made him 
legitimate? 

1019
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:20,920
Besides the claims that Daron 
was a bastard, there's Damon's 

1020
00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:22,960
claim. 
It always comes down to having a

1021
00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:24,760
claim. 
It's a concept that we needn't 

1022
00:50:24,760 --> 00:50:26,560
get too deep into right now. 
I think we're all basically 

1023
00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:29,160
familiar with the gist of it. 
A blood connection to the throne

1024
00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:32,080
equals a claim to the throne, 
basically, and this is what most

1025
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:35,800
claims are based upon. 
Damon had two such blood claims,

1026
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:38,080
not just because he was 
Targaryen on both sides, but 

1027
00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:40,320
because both of those sides had 
direct claims to the throne 

1028
00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:42,520
itself. 
We've already discussed Dana's 

1029
00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:46,320
claim, but the the one he had 
since birth despite his bastard 

1030
00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:49,320
stature. 
But for a long time, Damon only 

1031
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:51,320
had this one. 
Later, however, he would gain 

1032
00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:54,480
not just a second claim, but 1/3
through. 

1033
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:56,680
His father, of course, ascended 
to the throne when Damon was 

1034
00:50:56,680 --> 00:50:59,520
about two, but Aegon hadn't yet 
named him his son. 

1035
00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:01,240
The state. 
This state of affairs continued 

1036
00:51:01,240 --> 00:51:05,240
for a decade, until a singular 
event resulted in Damon's second

1037
00:51:05,240 --> 00:51:08,640
claim being revealed, and the 
third materializing almost from 

1038
00:51:08,680 --> 00:51:10,440
thin air. 
It was something that no one saw

1039
00:51:10,440 --> 00:51:13,200
coming, yet, perhaps in 
hindsight, was kind of 

1040
00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:16,720
unsurprising. 
Now, real quick, I want to 

1041
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:20,200
mention again the Tower of the 
Hand publication, A Hymn for 

1042
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:22,320
Spring. 
There's a great essay about the 

1043
00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:24,200
Blackfyre Rebellions by Stefan 
Sasa in there. 

1044
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:27,200
I helped edit it myself. 
And I think you got some great 

1045
00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:32,160
takes on some of the backgrounds
from the meta analysis of it as 

1046
00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:35,280
far as how people felt and what 
Damon represented and what Daron

1047
00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:38,200
represented, the great stuff. 
And of course, Steven and I both

1048
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:40,200
have essays in him for Spring as
well. 

1049
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:42,880
Steven, real quick, a bit of a 
teaser on yours. 

1050
00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:46,280
Sure. 
So I have two essays, one of 

1051
00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:50,160
which has to do with the 
application of Machiavellian 

1052
00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:53,560
theory to Song of Ice and Fire 
and trying to figure out, you 

1053
00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:57,360
know, exactly who wins and who 
loses in the Game of Thrones. 

1054
00:51:58,440 --> 00:52:01,320
And the other essay is 
specifically about this 

1055
00:52:01,840 --> 00:52:06,640
difficult question over the 
realm's finances, namely, did 

1056
00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:10,160
Robert Baratheon bankrupt the 
Kingdom or did Littlefingers 

1057
00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:13,240
steal Westeros? 
That's a great subject and I've 

1058
00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:15,640
read the essays and I like them,
so I can vouch for them. 

1059
00:52:15,720 --> 00:52:18,960
And a Shay and I's essay is on 
the curse of Harrenhal, whether 

1060
00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:22,040
it was real and whether being 
real or not matters because 

1061
00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:24,760
people believed it to be real. 
So check out the Hymn for 

1062
00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:26,520
Spring. 
It's available through History 

1063
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:29,000
of westeros.com. 
There's a link directly for it. 

1064
00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:31,880
And of course, you'll be not 
only supporting us, but Steven 

1065
00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:33,760
and Stefan Sasa and the Tower of
the Hand. 

1066
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:39,880
So Part 2, becoming Black Fire 
King Aegon knighted Damon in his

1067
00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:43,160
12th year when he won a squire's
tourney, thereby making him the 

1068
00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:45,320
youngest knight ever made in the
time of the Targaryen, 

1069
00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:48,680
surpassing Megor the 1st, and 
shocked his court kin and 

1070
00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:51,480
counsel by bestowing upon him 
the sword of Aegon the 

1071
00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:54,880
Conqueror, Blackfire, as well as
lands and other honors. 

1072
00:52:55,160 --> 00:52:57,320
Damon took the name Blackfire 
thereafter. 

1073
00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:00,960
The year was 182. 
What a moment. 

1074
00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:04,640
Aegon had given away dragon eggs
largely for sex. 

1075
00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:08,600
This is what we mean by it not 
being so surprising in hindsight

1076
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:11,800
that he would give away such a 
valuable thing almost out of 

1077
00:53:11,800 --> 00:53:14,160
nowhere. 
But still, if anyone saw it 

1078
00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:15,800
coming, they were in the great 
minority. 

1079
00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:18,080
Or we're dealing with some 
little finger like shadowy 

1080
00:53:18,080 --> 00:53:20,240
figure who suggested this to him
as well. 

1081
00:53:20,240 --> 00:53:22,200
Hey, why not give black fire to 
this guy? 

1082
00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:24,360
That's possible too. 
We don't know what it's 

1083
00:53:24,480 --> 00:53:27,520
interesting to think about where
Aegon was he the idea it's his 

1084
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:29,080
own or not? 
I keep coming back to that. 

1085
00:53:29,960 --> 00:53:33,600
No reason to suspect it though. 
Again, it's just an idea, no 

1086
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:36,120
evidence for it. 
Egon liked Damon and he was 

1087
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:38,720
proud of him. 
As far as the Westerosi ideal 

1088
00:53:38,720 --> 00:53:43,120
for any son or a son any man 
would be proud to have, Damon 

1089
00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:46,160
was ideal. 
He was the ideal ideal. 

1090
00:53:46,160 --> 00:53:49,480
Other than being a bastard 
again, well, the only thing like

1091
00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:51,360
Steven said, that's the only 
thing people could say against 

1092
00:53:51,360 --> 00:53:52,520
him. 
So the. 

1093
00:53:52,680 --> 00:53:55,280
So not only was Black Fire a 
completely unprecedented gift, 

1094
00:53:55,520 --> 00:53:57,720
it upped the threat level for 
Prince Daron. 

1095
00:53:57,760 --> 00:54:00,320
The rumor she was the Dragon 
Knight's son had gotten louder 

1096
00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:03,040
after both the Dragon Knight and
Queen Naries herself were dead. 

1097
00:54:03,520 --> 00:54:06,920
Those were the main defenders of
Daron's honor besides Daron 

1098
00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:10,280
himself, and they were gone. 
And for almost 30 years, Though 

1099
00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:13,720
even bigger factor perhaps the 
Dragons had been dead. 

1100
00:54:14,120 --> 00:54:15,800
This made black fire more 
important. 

1101
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:18,000
For those of you who have read 
the Princess and the Queen and 

1102
00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:20,120
other sources on the Dance of 
the Dragons, Black fire is 

1103
00:54:20,120 --> 00:54:22,480
mentioned as one of the many 
symbols possessed by egg on the 

1104
00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:25,680
second, but not even by name. 
And it is it was. 

1105
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:26,920
It's almost mentioned in 
passive. 

1106
00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:28,640
The sword wasn't as big deal 
back then. 

1107
00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:31,920
It was valuable, it was awesome,
but it didn't pack nearly as 

1108
00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:36,000
much of a punch as a kingly 
symbol Back when you got Amy's 

1109
00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:38,480
just giving it to Megor, you 
know, that's obviously. 

1110
00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:39,640
How big a deal could it have 
been? 

1111
00:54:40,640 --> 00:54:44,320
Why did it become a big deal? 
Well, partly it's propaganda. 

1112
00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:47,120
Damon's supporters played up the
sword in its importance. 

1113
00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:50,080
And also the other major 
throwback to egg on the 

1114
00:54:50,080 --> 00:54:52,720
Conqueror was his crown, and 
that was lost. 

1115
00:54:52,720 --> 00:54:56,760
So the sword shared less of the 
spotlight, so to speak. 

1116
00:54:57,520 --> 00:54:59,960
But Stephen, I think the biggest
part is the recently dead 

1117
00:54:59,960 --> 00:55:01,360
Dragons. 
What do you think about that? 

1118
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:03,720
Is that you agree with that? 
Yeah, I agree. 

1119
00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:08,920
You know, I, I, I don't think it
hurts that as a symbol goes, 

1120
00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:14,120
right, It's, it is a symbol of 
not so much kingship as warrior 

1121
00:55:14,120 --> 00:55:16,520
kingship, right? 
You didn't give him, you know, 

1122
00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:20,320
even if he had it right, giving 
Aegon's crown is a statement 

1123
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:22,560
about political power and 
sovereignty. 

1124
00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:26,640
The sword is about stepping into
a mythos. 

1125
00:55:28,680 --> 00:55:32,680
And, you know, especially 
because the big distinction 

1126
00:55:32,680 --> 00:55:36,680
between Damon and Daron as 
people was between the scholar 

1127
00:55:36,680 --> 00:55:40,320
and the warrior, this is kind of
drawing that line even more 

1128
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:42,480
sharply. 
It's like, not only is he just 

1129
00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:46,320
an amazing warrior, he is now 
carrying the sword of the 

1130
00:55:46,320 --> 00:55:51,040
Conqueror. 
That signifies, you know, this 

1131
00:55:51,240 --> 00:55:55,720
kind of not just kingship, but 
this kind of kingship that a lot

1132
00:55:55,720 --> 00:55:59,440
of people in court feel is 
lacking, right. 

1133
00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:03,920
You know, that, you know, maybe 
Aegon had it once, right, But 

1134
00:56:04,160 --> 00:56:06,720
doesn't have it again, you know,
doesn't have it anymore. 

1135
00:56:06,720 --> 00:56:09,400
He's gotten too old. 
Yeah. 

1136
00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:11,960
I like Daron is Daron's never 
going to have that. 

1137
00:56:12,640 --> 00:56:17,760
No never. 
And the so the the Dragons were 

1138
00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:19,720
the real symbol of might too. 
That's why I like to think about

1139
00:56:19,720 --> 00:56:21,160
it. 
The when the Targaryens, back 

1140
00:56:21,160 --> 00:56:23,000
when they had the Dragons, when 
they fought against non 

1141
00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:25,640
Targaryens, it was dragon versus
human. 

1142
00:56:26,120 --> 00:56:28,560
When Targaryens fought 
Targaryens, it was dragon versus

1143
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:31,040
dragon. 
Huge claws, massive jaws, flame 

1144
00:56:31,040 --> 00:56:33,120
breath, etcetera. 
What is a sword against? 

1145
00:56:33,720 --> 00:56:36,520
You know, massive jaws, huge 
claws, and flame breath. 

1146
00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:38,160
Even an awesome sword like black
fire. 

1147
00:56:38,160 --> 00:56:41,160
This doesn't mean as much with 
that kind of firepower around. 

1148
00:56:41,720 --> 00:56:45,320
Pun intended of course. 
But in the era of Damon Deron, 

1149
00:56:45,520 --> 00:56:47,200
Aegon the Unworthy, Dragons were
a thing. 

1150
00:56:47,200 --> 00:56:50,120
In the past, everything was 
human versus human. 

1151
00:56:50,400 --> 00:56:52,640
And when the best weapons 
available are made of steel, 

1152
00:56:53,320 --> 00:56:55,040
having a vastly superior sword 
native. 

1153
00:56:55,040 --> 00:56:57,520
Vastly superior steel. 
Well that makes more sense now, 

1154
00:56:57,520 --> 00:57:00,920
doesn't it? 
Damon was the best warrior of 

1155
00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:03,280
his era, wielding the best sword
available. 

1156
00:57:03,280 --> 00:57:07,720
That's pretty pretty bad ass. 
So things progressed quickly for

1157
00:57:07,720 --> 00:57:10,000
him. 
At some point his father also 

1158
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:13,040
arranged a marriage for him. 
It was a political marriage with

1159
00:57:13,040 --> 00:57:17,520
war in mind and it probably 
further pushed Damon into the 

1160
00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:20,600
anti Dornish court or side of 
things if he wasn't already 

1161
00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:23,640
firmly entrenched there. 
The king had lost his royal 

1162
00:57:23,640 --> 00:57:26,800
fleet to storms. 
So this marriage to Rohan, The 

1163
00:57:27,320 --> 00:57:29,520
Who was probably the daughter of
the Archon of Tairash. 

1164
00:57:29,720 --> 00:57:32,440
This was probably meant to 
bolster that weakness by giving 

1165
00:57:32,440 --> 00:57:35,360
him an alliance with someone who
had a big Navy again should he 

1166
00:57:35,360 --> 00:57:37,840
wish to make another attempt at 
invading Dorn. 

1167
00:57:38,160 --> 00:57:42,600
Which was pretty important 
because the Dornish problem is 

1168
00:57:42,600 --> 00:57:46,280
probably the existence of Dorn 
and this, this rivalry and the 

1169
00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:49,440
political situation was probably
one of the main things, if not 

1170
00:57:49,440 --> 00:57:55,920
the main thing, preventing Aegon
from setting Daron aside in 

1171
00:57:55,920 --> 00:57:58,160
favor of Damon. 
Cause of course if he did that 

1172
00:57:58,280 --> 00:58:00,480
they would mean war. 
But if Doran was taken out of 

1173
00:58:00,480 --> 00:58:03,000
the picture, there would be no 
threat of war and he'd be free 

1174
00:58:03,000 --> 00:58:05,520
to do the legitimizations. 
What do you think about that, 

1175
00:58:05,520 --> 00:58:07,120
Stephen? 
You think that's part of what 

1176
00:58:07,440 --> 00:58:09,000
Aegon had in mind with that 
marriage? 

1177
00:58:09,320 --> 00:58:11,440
You think it's possible someone 
else gave him that idea? 

1178
00:58:11,640 --> 00:58:14,840
Or is it just something else 
entirely? 

1179
00:58:15,920 --> 00:58:19,160
I think, you know, most likely 
it was about the power politics.

1180
00:58:19,160 --> 00:58:21,720
He wanted the fleet. 
He probably also wanted money 

1181
00:58:22,720 --> 00:58:27,880
because he spent it like water. 
And, you know, you also get the 

1182
00:58:27,880 --> 00:58:33,760
sense somewhat that he the that 
Aegon the 4th rather treated 

1183
00:58:33,760 --> 00:58:38,000
marriages or the troubles, at 
least with a certain amount of 

1184
00:58:38,400 --> 00:58:41,160
flippancy, that they were 
political game pieces to be 

1185
00:58:41,160 --> 00:58:44,680
moved around and and sort of 
changed around when it suited 

1186
00:58:44,680 --> 00:58:47,400
it. 
So we can't even I think, be 

1187
00:58:47,400 --> 00:58:52,400
that clear how much of A lasting
alliance this was supposed to be

1188
00:58:52,640 --> 00:58:54,680
or whether it was just sort of, 
you know, in the moment. 

1189
00:58:54,680 --> 00:58:57,680
I need this fleet. 
What do I need to get this 

1190
00:58:57,680 --> 00:58:59,680
fleet? 
OK, I've got this fleet now. 

1191
00:58:59,920 --> 00:59:02,440
That's a good point. 
And it's, it's certainly and you

1192
00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:04,520
it, it's a great segue because 
it's true. 

1193
00:59:04,520 --> 00:59:06,600
This was a betrothal, not a 
marriage. 

1194
00:59:06,880 --> 00:59:09,240
It was it, it was a become a, it
did become a marriage 

1195
00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:10,520
eventually. 
It was consummated. 

1196
00:59:10,520 --> 00:59:14,280
Damon and Rohan at seven sons 
plus at least two daughters. 

1197
00:59:15,640 --> 00:59:19,560
So. 
But in the meantime, they had to

1198
00:59:19,560 --> 00:59:20,960
wait until they were old enough 
to marry. 

1199
00:59:21,160 --> 00:59:25,640
And before that happened, King 
Aegon died in 184. 

1200
00:59:25,680 --> 00:59:29,960
So the IT was soon after that 
they were married, but it didn't

1201
00:59:29,960 --> 00:59:32,360
quite happen before that. 
Now, another thing I want to 

1202
00:59:32,360 --> 00:59:35,600
throw out there just before we 
get to Aegon's death is that 

1203
00:59:35,600 --> 00:59:41,040
it's also possible that Aegon 
had something else in mind, 

1204
00:59:41,040 --> 00:59:47,040
which is that he wanted to. 
Well, it's not clear what he 

1205
00:59:47,040 --> 00:59:49,760
wanted to do, but it's 
interesting that the Archon of 

1206
00:59:49,760 --> 00:59:51,680
Tire Rush would have even agreed
to this marriage in the 1st 

1207
00:59:51,680 --> 00:59:53,400
place. 
He agrees to marry this, this 

1208
00:59:53,400 --> 00:59:56,040
daughter of his to a bastard, 
even though he's a royal 

1209
00:59:56,040 --> 00:59:56,760
bastard. 
Still. 

1210
00:59:56,760 --> 00:59:59,040
That's interesting. 
It could be something about the 

1211
00:59:59,040 --> 01:00:00,400
Tirashi. 
Maybe they don't care about 

1212
01:00:00,400 --> 01:00:03,400
bastards as much, Maybe that's 
not a thing for them, but it's a

1213
01:00:03,400 --> 01:00:05,720
little curious. 
And it's also interesting 

1214
01:00:06,200 --> 01:00:08,840
because as we'll see a little 
later, we may as well bring it 

1215
01:00:08,840 --> 01:00:13,040
up now. 
It was not there was normally. 

1216
01:00:13,560 --> 01:00:16,760
It's the bride's family that 
pays the dowry, but that was not

1217
01:00:16,760 --> 01:00:19,560
the case in this. 
Deron paid the dowry that Aegon 

1218
01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:20,960
had arranged, which is 
interesting. 

1219
01:00:21,160 --> 01:00:22,520
Maybe that's because he was a 
basher. 

1220
01:00:22,520 --> 01:00:24,720
Maybe that was the deal there. 
I don't know. 

1221
01:00:25,080 --> 01:00:29,080
But anyway, while he was dying, 
and to be sure he knew he was 

1222
01:00:29,080 --> 01:00:33,960
dying, he did that that thing he
did that thing that had he not 

1223
01:00:33,960 --> 01:00:37,800
done it would have probably 
removed him from the category of

1224
01:00:37,800 --> 01:00:39,680
worst Targaryen king ever 
discussions. 

1225
01:00:39,880 --> 01:00:43,120
He'd be relegated to the really 
bad category instead, but not 

1226
01:00:43,120 --> 01:00:45,160
the worst. 
The thing, of course, that I'm 

1227
01:00:45,160 --> 01:00:49,040
referring to is legitimizing all
his bastard children. 

1228
01:00:49,240 --> 01:00:51,720
So, Steven, right away, what do 
you think happened? 

1229
01:00:51,720 --> 01:00:53,800
Like what was the initial 
reaction, the shock, the 

1230
01:00:53,800 --> 01:00:55,840
surprise? 
You think they tried to dissuade

1231
01:00:55,840 --> 01:00:56,960
him maybe. 
Like what? 

1232
01:00:56,960 --> 01:00:59,240
You really want to do that? 
Are you sure? 

1233
01:01:00,200 --> 01:01:02,720
I mean, I think he probably kept
it a surprise. 

1234
01:01:02,720 --> 01:01:06,920
It was sort of, you know, a last
shot fire sort. 

1235
01:01:06,920 --> 01:01:10,200
Of saying. 
You know, screw you to everyone 

1236
01:01:10,200 --> 01:01:13,160
who I didn't like, but the 
problem is the moment it's 

1237
01:01:13,160 --> 01:01:15,960
public, you can't really undo 
it, right? 

1238
01:01:15,960 --> 01:01:19,640
I mean, that is the nature of 
royal proclamation is that in 

1239
01:01:19,640 --> 01:01:22,280
saying a thing is so, you have 
made it so. 

1240
01:01:22,760 --> 01:01:25,280
And, and given that this is 
ultimately all about kind of 

1241
01:01:25,280 --> 01:01:29,000
perceived status, right, the 
moment that everyone hears that 

1242
01:01:29,000 --> 01:01:32,880
someone's been legitimized, 
legitimized, they're they're 

1243
01:01:32,880 --> 01:01:36,400
effectively legitimized, whether
the, you know, all the i's are 

1244
01:01:36,400 --> 01:01:39,320
dotted and the, the T's are 
crossed doesn't really matter as

1245
01:01:39,320 --> 01:01:40,920
much. 
That's true. 

1246
01:01:41,680 --> 01:01:43,160
The legitimization, it's 
interesting. 

1247
01:01:43,160 --> 01:01:46,280
Now the reasons are different 
for each individual, but Agor, 

1248
01:01:46,280 --> 01:01:49,120
Bloodraven, Chiara, all of them 
were legitimized, but none of 

1249
01:01:49,120 --> 01:01:50,800
them took the name Targaryen 
there. 

1250
01:01:50,800 --> 01:01:52,160
Like I said, there's different 
reasons for that. 

1251
01:01:52,160 --> 01:01:55,320
But in Damon's case, he was 
already established as Black 

1252
01:01:55,320 --> 01:01:56,240
Fire. 
That was a name. 

1253
01:01:56,240 --> 01:01:57,840
That was his name. 
He had a castle already. 

1254
01:01:57,840 --> 01:01:59,640
He had the sword. 
Doesn't really make sense to 

1255
01:01:59,640 --> 01:02:02,520
take the name Targaryen when 
you've got yourself established 

1256
01:02:02,520 --> 01:02:05,640
as your as your own thing. 
Plus it might be a bit more 

1257
01:02:05,640 --> 01:02:09,320
threatening to to do that. 
It's like, well, I'm if if Damon

1258
01:02:09,320 --> 01:02:11,680
had called himself Damon 
Targaryen, he would be directly 

1259
01:02:11,680 --> 01:02:14,920
challenging Darren's authority. 
I think it also makes him stand 

1260
01:02:14,920 --> 01:02:18,800
out more, sort of saying I'm not
just a Targaryen, I'm the one 

1261
01:02:18,800 --> 01:02:24,680
who's got the damn. 
Sword I agree so now though the 

1262
01:02:24,680 --> 01:02:28,760
big thing Aegon is dead and 
Deron is king and that has a 

1263
01:02:28,760 --> 01:02:32,160
large impact because all that 
anti Dornish sentiment that was 

1264
01:02:32,160 --> 01:02:35,640
boiling up well now it's going 
to come to the fore even more 

1265
01:02:35,640 --> 01:02:38,760
because the Dornish are that 
much closer to the throne. 

1266
01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:41,520
Deron's family is at court. 
They already were, but there's 

1267
01:02:41,520 --> 01:02:45,120
now he's got counselors that are
Dornish, he's got more and more 

1268
01:02:45,200 --> 01:02:50,560
people that the standard 
Westerosi culture don't like so.

1269
01:02:50,920 --> 01:02:54,360
But Darren, he knew he 
recognized this and he used his 

1270
01:02:54,360 --> 01:02:58,000
methods, friendship, peace, 
generosity to try and keep 

1271
01:02:58,000 --> 01:03:00,000
things together. 
He did what he could to keep the

1272
01:03:00,000 --> 01:03:02,800
great bastards close, treating 
them honorably and continuing 

1273
01:03:02,800 --> 01:03:04,800
the incomes that the King had 
bestowed on them. 

1274
01:03:05,040 --> 01:03:07,440
He paid the dowry that Aegon had
promised to the Archon of 

1275
01:03:07,440 --> 01:03:10,880
Tairash, thereby seeing his half
brother Damon Blackfyre wed to 

1276
01:03:10,880 --> 01:03:13,560
Rohan of Tairash as Aegon had 
desired. 

1277
01:03:14,040 --> 01:03:16,360
For all that Sir Damon was only 
four and 10. 

1278
01:03:16,760 --> 01:03:19,240
On their wedding day, he granted
Damon a tractive land near the 

1279
01:03:19,240 --> 01:03:21,520
Blackwater with the right to 
raise a castle. 

1280
01:03:21,880 --> 01:03:24,760
Some said he did such things to 
assert his rule and legitimacy 

1281
01:03:24,760 --> 01:03:27,680
over the great bastards and 
others because he was kind and 

1282
01:03:27,680 --> 01:03:30,120
just. 
But whatever the truth, such 

1283
01:03:30,120 --> 01:03:35,120
efforts sadly proved in vain. 
This is another thing we talked 

1284
01:03:35,120 --> 01:03:37,440
about briefly earlier, the 
marriage. 

1285
01:03:37,880 --> 01:03:40,360
This marriage happened well 
before Daenerys went S to marry 

1286
01:03:40,360 --> 01:03:43,200
Prince Marion Martel, so it's 
even weirder that he was upset 

1287
01:03:43,200 --> 01:03:45,440
about this or that the rumors 
were that he was upset about it.

1288
01:03:45,800 --> 01:03:50,160
Unless we credit these rumors 
that Damon thought he could 

1289
01:03:50,160 --> 01:03:52,200
marry twice. 
A different tale claims that 

1290
01:03:52,200 --> 01:03:55,240
Damon was not so much opposed to
wedding Rohan of Tyraj as he was

1291
01:03:55,240 --> 01:03:57,480
convinced that he could follow 
in the footsteps of Aegon the 

1292
01:03:57,480 --> 01:04:00,840
Conqueror and Megor the Cruel 
and have more than one bride. 

1293
01:04:01,240 --> 01:04:03,440
Aegon might have even promised 
to indulge him in this. 

1294
01:04:03,680 --> 01:04:06,480
Some of Blackfyre's partisans 
later claimed this was the case,

1295
01:04:06,840 --> 01:04:09,080
but Daron was of a different 
mind entirely. 

1296
01:04:09,520 --> 01:04:12,200
What do you think about that? 
Is is anything, do you credit 

1297
01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:14,880
that rumor at all? 
In one hand, it seems like it 

1298
01:04:14,880 --> 01:04:17,120
could be true because Damon was 
just so pumped up. 

1299
01:04:17,120 --> 01:04:20,320
His ego may have been so big 
that he believed he was could do

1300
01:04:20,320 --> 01:04:21,720
this. 
On the other hand, it's so 

1301
01:04:21,720 --> 01:04:22,920
against the worship of the 
seven. 

1302
01:04:23,160 --> 01:04:27,520
It's so not chivalrous and. 
Well, on the other hand, it is 

1303
01:04:27,520 --> 01:04:30,560
very Targaryen. 
You know, the, you know, you got

1304
01:04:30,560 --> 01:04:33,520
to think he's got Egon's sword, 
right? 

1305
01:04:33,520 --> 01:04:36,560
He is a descendant of Aegon. 
Aegon had multiple wives. 

1306
01:04:37,880 --> 01:04:43,080
You know, certainly his mother, 
you know, was kind of a quasi 

1307
01:04:43,080 --> 01:04:47,520
sister wife with, you know, her 
two sisters in Baylor. 

1308
01:04:48,280 --> 01:04:50,520
Even though she was the sort of 
the technically supposed to be 

1309
01:04:50,520 --> 01:04:55,000
the bride, there was sort of a 
commonality there, you know, So 

1310
01:04:55,000 --> 01:04:57,680
it, it's possible that, you 
know, all of this emphasis on 

1311
01:04:57,680 --> 01:05:01,880
Targaryen tradition and purity 
of blood, that he, he may have 

1312
01:05:01,880 --> 01:05:05,600
gone all in for that. 
It's also possible that he 

1313
01:05:05,600 --> 01:05:12,880
thought that maybe Rohan could 
just go away one way or another.

1314
01:05:13,080 --> 01:05:16,480
We don't really know. 
But it it certainly suggests 

1315
01:05:16,480 --> 01:05:18,680
that he thought very highly of 
himself. 

1316
01:05:19,200 --> 01:05:24,040
Very if he did, yeah, it's true.
And I and I can totally buy that

1317
01:05:24,040 --> 01:05:26,200
because of the like I said, he 
had people around him constantly

1318
01:05:26,200 --> 01:05:30,120
telling him how great he was. 
And yeah, that's going to have 

1319
01:05:30,120 --> 01:05:33,760
an effect even on someone who's 
stubborn and very self assured. 

1320
01:05:34,680 --> 01:05:39,320
But the this marriage would 
prove to be problematic for King

1321
01:05:39,320 --> 01:05:40,520
Daron. 
And as it followed him on the 

1322
01:05:40,520 --> 01:05:43,080
Iron Throne over the years, Tie 
Rush and the Blackfyre cause 

1323
01:05:43,080 --> 01:05:45,880
were aligned several times. 
Damon's descendants spent quite 

1324
01:05:45,880 --> 01:05:49,000
a bit of time there. 
Bitter Steel spent quite a lot 

1325
01:05:49,000 --> 01:05:51,320
of time there. 
But the more immediate effect 

1326
01:05:51,320 --> 01:05:53,640
was the making of said 
descendants. 

1327
01:05:54,120 --> 01:05:57,440
Damon and Rohan would have, like
I said earlier, seven sons and 

1328
01:05:57,440 --> 01:06:00,880
at least two daughters. 
When Damon was only 14, the 

1329
01:06:00,880 --> 01:06:04,960
first two of these seven sons 
arrived, Twins named after his 

1330
01:06:04,960 --> 01:06:08,720
father and uncle that he was 
said to be like Amon, the other 

1331
01:06:08,880 --> 01:06:11,960
being Aegon. 
Notably Targaryen names too, 

1332
01:06:12,080 --> 01:06:16,000
which is unlike what Baylor 
chose for his sons. 

1333
01:06:16,000 --> 01:06:18,040
Baylor breaks through. 
That is because Baylor, the bus,

1334
01:06:18,040 --> 01:06:20,920
it had no sons. 
Valar and Mataris, these are 

1335
01:06:20,920 --> 01:06:24,280
like quasi Targaryen names. 
I don't know where they come 

1336
01:06:24,280 --> 01:06:26,360
from, but they're not 
traditional Targaryen names. 

1337
01:06:26,640 --> 01:06:31,360
And you wonder if that fits in 
with the whole Targaryen pure 

1338
01:06:31,360 --> 01:06:36,560
blood versus Dornish kind of 
meta struggle that was happening

1339
01:06:36,560 --> 01:06:38,480
at court at this time. 
What do you think about that? 

1340
01:06:38,480 --> 01:06:40,280
You think the names tell us 
anything or? 

1341
01:06:40,360 --> 01:06:42,480
Possibly. 
I mean, you know, the Valar and 

1342
01:06:42,480 --> 01:06:45,400
Mataris, it's, it's a little bit
tricky to figure out where those

1343
01:06:45,400 --> 01:06:48,040
names are coming from. 
You know, I, I think they were 

1344
01:06:48,040 --> 01:06:51,520
probably Valyrian names in 
general, but just not that 

1345
01:06:51,520 --> 01:06:53,560
associated with the family. 
Yeah. 

1346
01:06:54,040 --> 01:06:57,280
Whereas, you know, on the, on 
the flip side of it, Aegon and 

1347
01:06:57,280 --> 01:06:59,720
Amon, he's being very, very 
clear, right? 

1348
01:06:59,720 --> 01:07:02,120
You know my kids are named after
King. 

1349
01:07:03,000 --> 01:07:06,240
So as an aside, it's interesting
that shortly after the red grass

1350
01:07:06,240 --> 01:07:11,360
field, or just before, around 
the same time that eventually 

1351
01:07:11,360 --> 01:07:15,160
Makar named two of his kids, 
Eamon and Aegon as well. 

1352
01:07:15,160 --> 01:07:17,200
It's almost like, well, no, 
we're taking that back. 

1353
01:07:18,800 --> 01:07:20,600
Or it was just traditional, I 
don't know. 

1354
01:07:22,160 --> 01:07:24,200
Having kids, though, is a big 
deal. 

1355
01:07:24,200 --> 01:07:27,880
And no doubt this enhanced 
Damon's burgeoning fame and 

1356
01:07:27,880 --> 01:07:29,560
popularity. 
It's like twin sons is like the 

1357
01:07:29,560 --> 01:07:33,440
jackpot, you know, for from 
Westerosi, you know, 

1358
01:07:33,760 --> 01:07:35,520
perceptions. 
And surely some of this took it 

1359
01:07:35,520 --> 01:07:38,960
as a sign of godly favors, like 
the gods have given Damon twin 

1360
01:07:38,960 --> 01:07:40,920
sons. 
Especially seven son. 

1361
01:07:41,200 --> 01:07:43,280
Yeah, the seven son. 
Yeah, eventually when it got to 

1362
01:07:43,280 --> 01:07:47,240
that point, I mean, Dang, that's
like, what kind of a sign is 

1363
01:07:47,240 --> 01:07:50,120
that, right? 
Surely some people really build 

1364
01:07:50,120 --> 01:07:52,560
up that angle now. 
It'd be interesting to see their

1365
01:07:52,560 --> 01:07:53,920
dynamic though. 
We don't know hardly anything 

1366
01:07:53,920 --> 01:07:56,520
about Rohan. 
Was she an ambitious one too? 

1367
01:07:56,520 --> 01:08:00,800
Was she also pushing him for the
throne or was she in awe of him?

1368
01:08:00,960 --> 01:08:04,160
We don't know if she was even 
older than him or not. 

1369
01:08:04,160 --> 01:08:07,640
I I don't know. 
Well, hopefully at least a 

1370
01:08:07,640 --> 01:08:09,960
little bit older given how many 
kids she's having and how 

1371
01:08:09,960 --> 01:08:11,760
quickly. 
Yes, because if he had a kid at 

1372
01:08:11,760 --> 01:08:14,840
14 and she was younger, then 
that means she was 12 or 13, 

1373
01:08:14,840 --> 01:08:19,200
which is like, oh all right, 
then it wouldn't be the first 

1374
01:08:19,200 --> 01:08:21,560
time. 
But yeah, anyway, so. 

1375
01:08:21,560 --> 01:08:23,720
But like we said, yeah. 
So Damon's only 14 at this point

1376
01:08:23,720 --> 01:08:25,560
and the rebellion is still many 
years away. 

1377
01:08:25,920 --> 01:08:28,359
Still plenty of time for him to 
gain popularity, establish 

1378
01:08:28,359 --> 01:08:33,040
himself further and to play 
fight more tournaments more. 

1379
01:08:33,359 --> 01:08:36,000
There weren't real battles for 
him to fight in, but people care

1380
01:08:36,000 --> 01:08:38,160
about tournaments well outside 
the North anyway. 

1381
01:08:38,800 --> 01:08:42,040
A semi famous example of this 
came a few years later at 

1382
01:08:42,600 --> 01:08:46,040
Princess Daenerys wedding. 
Prince Baylor won the name break

1383
01:08:46,040 --> 01:08:49,840
spear at the age of 17 following
his famous victory at Princess 

1384
01:08:50,279 --> 01:08:53,359
Daenerys wedding tourney. 
He defeated Damon Blackfyre in 

1385
01:08:53,359 --> 01:08:56,200
the final tilt. 
Interesting. 

1386
01:08:56,439 --> 01:08:57,760
A few things came out of that 
quote. 

1387
01:08:57,760 --> 01:09:00,520
Baylor was also gaining fame. 
Let's not forget that. 

1388
01:09:00,880 --> 01:09:03,479
He wasn't as flashy, but he was 
legit. 

1389
01:09:03,479 --> 01:09:05,240
He was actually in the line of 
succession. 

1390
01:09:05,240 --> 01:09:07,760
So that's a pretty big deal. 
So here's a good time chance for

1391
01:09:07,760 --> 01:09:11,200
us to briefly re speculate on 
the rival between those two. 

1392
01:09:11,319 --> 01:09:14,399
How big a deal was this too? 
Just from their respective 

1393
01:09:14,399 --> 01:09:16,520
followers? 
This victory in a tournament, 

1394
01:09:16,520 --> 01:09:20,160
especially Daenerys's wedding 
tournament, which is kind of a 

1395
01:09:20,160 --> 01:09:22,760
big deal. 
Yeah, I was going to say there, 

1396
01:09:22,760 --> 01:09:24,720
there's an interesting symbolism
here. 

1397
01:09:24,720 --> 01:09:29,160
You know, I'm thinking back to 
the the tournaments that went on

1398
01:09:29,279 --> 01:09:33,000
before the Dance of the Dragons 
where there was all kinds of 

1399
01:09:33,000 --> 01:09:36,520
sort of interpersonal dynamics 
being played out in terms of who

1400
01:09:36,520 --> 01:09:39,800
had whose favor, who won, who 
lost. 

1401
01:09:42,120 --> 01:09:45,840
So, you know, definitely, I'm 
guessing that Damon was very 

1402
01:09:45,840 --> 01:09:48,960
unhappy about losing. 
I mean, especially the fact that

1403
01:09:48,960 --> 01:09:51,800
he fought in that tournament and
made it all the way to the final

1404
01:09:51,800 --> 01:09:55,680
tilt does suggest that he was 
planning to make some sort of a 

1405
01:09:55,680 --> 01:09:59,760
kind of Rhaegar like statement 
about, you know, his 

1406
01:09:59,760 --> 01:10:03,880
relationship with Daenerys. 
And to get beaten by Baylor, you

1407
01:10:03,880 --> 01:10:07,480
know, at that moment, that 
really must have stung. 

1408
01:10:08,720 --> 01:10:12,400
He must have hated it so much so
did his supporters. 

1409
01:10:12,400 --> 01:10:15,800
And like, damn it. 
How you got lucky though, you 

1410
01:10:15,800 --> 01:10:18,360
know, Damon's horse slipped or I
don't know. 

1411
01:10:19,400 --> 01:10:22,880
Well, especially given given the
name Break Spear. 

1412
01:10:24,760 --> 01:10:28,320
Yeah, it must have been several.
Well, it's possible that it went

1413
01:10:28,320 --> 01:10:31,040
to a split decision. 
I mean literally a split 

1414
01:10:31,040 --> 01:10:32,560
decision. 
Because. 

1415
01:10:33,320 --> 01:10:37,040
One of the ways that you settle 
jousts is, you know, obviously 

1416
01:10:37,040 --> 01:10:41,080
one person gets knocked off. 
But we've seen many cases where 

1417
01:10:41,080 --> 01:10:45,880
if they're just tied basically, 
and they're smashing Lance after

1418
01:10:45,880 --> 01:10:53,400
Lance, the king decides, well, 
if the king is dare on, you 

1419
01:10:53,400 --> 01:10:58,120
know, so I could I could, you 
know, unless Damon got unseeded,

1420
01:10:58,400 --> 01:11:01,200
I could definitely see a sense 
in which, you know, certainly 

1421
01:11:01,200 --> 01:11:04,040
the people around Damon might 
have been telling you, you got 

1422
01:11:04,040 --> 01:11:06,480
robbed. 
You really won that, you know, 

1423
01:11:06,480 --> 01:11:07,880
you should have been the 
champion. 

1424
01:11:08,200 --> 01:11:12,280
This guy Baylor, you know he's 
he's, you know, he's all mouth. 

1425
01:11:12,280 --> 01:11:14,760
He's all reputation. 
That's awesome, I hadn't thought

1426
01:11:14,760 --> 01:11:16,320
about the possibility of it 
being a decision. 

1427
01:11:16,320 --> 01:11:20,600
That's a great idea. 
Well, in any case, it would have

1428
01:11:20,600 --> 01:11:23,200
helped Baylor's popularity 
winning that regardless of 

1429
01:11:23,400 --> 01:11:24,720
whether it was a decision or 
not. 

1430
01:11:25,040 --> 01:11:28,480
But, but it's popularity. 
It didn't work the same for 

1431
01:11:28,480 --> 01:11:30,480
Baylor that it did for Dara or 
for Damon. 

1432
01:11:30,480 --> 01:11:32,880
It certainly worked. 
He was very popular, no doubt, 

1433
01:11:33,040 --> 01:11:37,560
but too many men looked upon 
Baylor's dark hair and eyes and 

1434
01:11:37,560 --> 01:11:40,680
muttered that he was more Martel
than Targaryen, even though he 

1435
01:11:40,680 --> 01:11:43,760
proved a man who could win 
respect with ease and was as 

1436
01:11:43,760 --> 01:11:45,560
open handed and just as his 
father. 

1437
01:11:46,000 --> 01:11:48,680
Knights and Lords of the Dornish
Marshes, Marches. 

1438
01:11:48,840 --> 01:11:52,440
Marches came to mistrust Aaron 
and Baylor as well, and began to

1439
01:11:52,440 --> 01:11:54,840
look more and more to the old 
days when Dartish men were the 

1440
01:11:54,880 --> 01:11:57,760
enemy to fight, not rivals for 
the King's attention or 

1441
01:11:57,760 --> 01:11:59,800
largesse. 
And then they would look at 

1442
01:11:59,800 --> 01:12:03,920
Damon Blackfire, grown tall and 
powerful, half a God among 

1443
01:12:03,920 --> 01:12:06,600
mortal men, and with the 
conqueror's sword in his 

1444
01:12:06,600 --> 01:12:15,040
possession, and wonder. 
Part 3 The Living Legend That 

1445
01:12:15,040 --> 01:12:17,880
quote really shows you why he 
was seen as a living legend, 

1446
01:12:17,880 --> 01:12:20,720
doesn't it? 
Damon's now in his early 20s, 

1447
01:12:20,840 --> 01:12:23,880
and people were thinking of him 
as half a God among mortal men. 

1448
01:12:23,880 --> 01:12:26,960
That gives you an idea of the 
kind of hero worship, the cult 

1449
01:12:26,960 --> 01:12:29,520
of personality, shall we say, 
that accompanied this man. 

1450
01:12:30,200 --> 01:12:33,280
Damon had appealed to a wide 
variety of people, from highborn

1451
01:12:33,440 --> 01:12:35,760
to commoner. 
He was a lot like a rock star, 

1452
01:12:35,760 --> 01:12:37,600
but more than that, he was the 
perfect knight. 

1453
01:12:37,680 --> 01:12:41,560
Skill and chivalry blended 
together, but more than that, he

1454
01:12:41,560 --> 01:12:44,840
represented ideals that were 
commonly held in tradition. 

1455
01:12:44,840 --> 01:12:48,080
Worshipping Westeros. 
Damon embodied the attitudes 

1456
01:12:48,080 --> 01:12:52,160
many of the noble houses of 
Westeros have upheld for eons. 

1457
01:12:53,440 --> 01:12:57,080
So let's discuss Damon's appeal 
as a way to settle old scores. 

1458
01:12:57,080 --> 01:12:59,240
The way things were the old 
days. 

1459
01:12:59,240 --> 01:13:03,880
And you got to keep in mind the 
old days had been the old days 

1460
01:13:03,880 --> 01:13:07,400
for thousands of years. 
And this new Deron King was just

1461
01:13:07,400 --> 01:13:10,200
trying to change all that in 
just a few years. 

1462
01:13:10,680 --> 01:13:12,160
That's hard. 
That's it's hard to break from 

1463
01:13:12,160 --> 01:13:15,320
tradition like that. 
These guys don't like peace. 

1464
01:13:15,400 --> 01:13:16,680
What do you take? 
What's your take on that? 

1465
01:13:16,680 --> 01:13:19,920
Yeah, I mean, you know, in, I 
think at a, at a fundamental 

1466
01:13:19,920 --> 01:13:25,920
level, right as we can see, 
Damon acquires a constituency of

1467
01:13:26,440 --> 01:13:32,360
marcher Lords and Knights who 
their very identity is wound up 

1468
01:13:32,360 --> 01:13:36,080
in fighting the dorm. 
You know, the the war may have 

1469
01:13:36,080 --> 01:13:40,320
ended between Princess, but you 
know, when when the Raiders come

1470
01:13:40,320 --> 01:13:45,240
every year to, you know, grab, 
you know, sheep or cattle or or 

1471
01:13:45,240 --> 01:13:48,480
whatever, you know, that doesn't
really matter very much to the 

1472
01:13:48,480 --> 01:13:51,480
martyr Lord. 
So immediately he's got this, 

1473
01:13:51,480 --> 01:13:59,680
this kind of anti Dornish pro 
kind of military, pro chivalry 

1474
01:14:00,120 --> 01:14:04,720
coalition building around him. 
And you know, there's sort of 

1475
01:14:04,720 --> 01:14:06,280
both a push and a pull factor, 
right? 

1476
01:14:06,440 --> 01:14:10,240
They don't like what Deron and 
Baylor represents, and they 

1477
01:14:10,440 --> 01:14:14,400
really like what he represents 
because he's seen as kind of a 

1478
01:14:14,400 --> 01:14:18,440
throwback to Aegon, to this old 
warrior kingship model. 

1479
01:14:19,960 --> 01:14:21,960
Yeah, which which they really 
like and which they really 

1480
01:14:21,960 --> 01:14:22,520
appreciate. 
You're right. 

1481
01:14:22,520 --> 01:14:25,640
It's not only that that they 
don't like Deron's peace 

1482
01:14:25,640 --> 01:14:27,320
overtures. 
They don't want to lose their 

1483
01:14:27,320 --> 01:14:30,320
identity as a warrior culture or
as warrior houses or as 

1484
01:14:30,320 --> 01:14:32,320
defenders of the marches or, or 
what have you. 

1485
01:14:33,800 --> 01:14:35,000
It's not just that they hate 
that. 

1486
01:14:35,000 --> 01:14:38,080
It's that, like you say, Damon 
is that he is the opposite of 

1487
01:14:38,080 --> 01:14:39,880
that. 
He is the one that represents 

1488
01:14:39,880 --> 01:14:43,560
that, that warrior nature and 
that, you know, fighting. 

1489
01:14:44,320 --> 01:14:46,720
Then damn Darren. 
If Darren had his way, there 

1490
01:14:46,720 --> 01:14:49,880
would be no no one to fight, 
although the only ones to fight 

1491
01:14:49,880 --> 01:14:54,400
would be overseas. 
Doran was the last frontier, the

1492
01:14:54,400 --> 01:14:56,880
last combative frontier in 
Westeros at that time. 

1493
01:14:56,880 --> 01:14:58,520
And dare I was trying to take 
that away. 

1494
01:14:58,680 --> 01:15:00,960
Our modern sensibilities are 
like, yeah, take that away. 

1495
01:15:00,960 --> 01:15:03,040
Don't fight anymore. 
It don't just maintain this 

1496
01:15:03,040 --> 01:15:06,280
state of thousands of years of 
war, but it goes to show that 

1497
01:15:06,680 --> 01:15:09,640
how much these there are these 
these houses identities were 

1498
01:15:09,640 --> 01:15:12,440
wrapped up in this and how much 
they did not want to lose it. 

1499
01:15:12,560 --> 01:15:17,240
The marcher Lords like Karen, 
Selmy and Swan, they hate the 

1500
01:15:17,240 --> 01:15:18,520
dorms. 
They've been fighting them for 

1501
01:15:18,520 --> 01:15:21,040
so long. 
They did not want to stop doing 

1502
01:15:21,040 --> 01:15:22,480
that just because this king said
so. 

1503
01:15:23,840 --> 01:15:26,880
And on top of that, of course we
have those same shadowy figures.

1504
01:15:26,880 --> 01:15:28,720
We've been going back and forth 
referencing them. 

1505
01:15:28,840 --> 01:15:31,480
The ones that Deron kicked out 
of office were otherwise pissed 

1506
01:15:31,480 --> 01:15:33,240
off. 
Now, the problem with that is 

1507
01:15:33,240 --> 01:15:36,520
that these are scummy, ambitious
types. 

1508
01:15:36,520 --> 01:15:39,320
They're not the chivalrous type 
that Damon himself is. 

1509
01:15:39,840 --> 01:15:42,800
They may act chivalrous around 
Damon and project chivalry 

1510
01:15:42,800 --> 01:15:46,040
because that's Damon's cause and
they want to be in line with 

1511
01:15:46,040 --> 01:15:48,160
the, you know, the campaign 
ideals. 

1512
01:15:48,480 --> 01:15:52,400
But behind that, they're working
for their own ambition for sure,

1513
01:15:52,640 --> 01:15:54,560
and poisoning the well, so to 
speak. 

1514
01:15:54,840 --> 01:15:58,320
So, and I wonder how far back 
some of these guys were, were 

1515
01:15:58,320 --> 01:15:59,840
realizing the opportunity they 
had with. 

1516
01:15:59,840 --> 01:16:02,960
Damon and certainly, you know, 
as far back as when the rumors 

1517
01:16:02,960 --> 01:16:07,320
about Damon, excuse me, about 
Deron were being spread during 

1518
01:16:07,360 --> 01:16:10,360
Aegon's reign. 
It sure is annoying that these 

1519
01:16:10,360 --> 01:16:15,120
two guys names are so similar. 
You mean Deron and there's so 

1520
01:16:15,120 --> 01:16:19,520
many Derons and it's just that's
the way it's funny. 

1521
01:16:19,520 --> 01:16:22,680
Real history works that way too.
It's just another feature of 

1522
01:16:23,120 --> 01:16:26,080
this fake history that makes it 
more feel more authentic and has

1523
01:16:26,080 --> 01:16:28,600
the same confusing, repetitive 
names. 

1524
01:16:30,120 --> 01:16:32,200
Now. 
As far as Damon's appeal goes, 

1525
01:16:32,200 --> 01:16:34,200
though, it didn't work that way 
everywhere. 

1526
01:16:34,360 --> 01:16:37,560
The Iron Islands, they probably 
didn't care as much about Damon.

1527
01:16:37,560 --> 01:16:39,680
They didn't care about chivalry.
They don't care about worship of

1528
01:16:39,680 --> 01:16:41,400
the Seven. 
It's having him having seven 

1529
01:16:41,400 --> 01:16:44,480
sons is, you know, they care. 
It might have been cool for them

1530
01:16:44,480 --> 01:16:46,240
to think, oh, he's man enough to
have seven sons. 

1531
01:16:46,240 --> 01:16:48,600
They didn't care about the fact 
that it was 7 specifically. 

1532
01:16:49,200 --> 01:16:52,960
And but the North, same thing. 
The North, I don't think the 

1533
01:16:52,960 --> 01:16:56,280
North cared much about Damon. 
I think that because, for one 

1534
01:16:56,280 --> 01:16:58,000
thing, the North doesn't care 
much about knighthood. 

1535
01:16:58,760 --> 01:17:01,120
They don't care that he was 
handsome, they don't care about 

1536
01:17:01,120 --> 01:17:03,680
his tournament successes. 
They might not mind as much that

1537
01:17:03,680 --> 01:17:05,080
he's a bastard. 
What do you think? 

1538
01:17:05,080 --> 01:17:07,040
What do you think the North's 
attitude towards Damon was? 

1539
01:17:07,040 --> 01:17:09,240
We we For all we know, they 
weren't involved in the black 

1540
01:17:09,240 --> 01:17:11,120
flower bunions at all. 
So we're trying to come up with 

1541
01:17:11,120 --> 01:17:13,600
why. 
I, I, I think that ultimately 

1542
01:17:13,600 --> 01:17:17,440
the north is a lot more 
pragmatic about those, you know,

1543
01:17:17,480 --> 01:17:20,400
elements of, of knighthood. 
You know, they like a strong 

1544
01:17:20,400 --> 01:17:24,320
fighter, but given that they're 
so far away from everything, all

1545
01:17:24,640 --> 01:17:27,480
right, Also, you know, they've, 
you know, with the with one 

1546
01:17:27,480 --> 01:17:30,440
significant, significant 
exception, I don't think a 

1547
01:17:30,440 --> 01:17:33,680
Northman has ever, you know, had
ever really fought adornishment 

1548
01:17:33,680 --> 01:17:36,040
before. 
They're just way too separated 

1549
01:17:36,040 --> 01:17:38,160
from that whole conflict. 
So they're just. 

1550
01:17:39,040 --> 01:17:40,360
Yeah, other than the Dance of 
the Dragons. 

1551
01:17:40,400 --> 01:17:44,080
So they're just, you know, 
they're not emotionally primed 

1552
01:17:45,280 --> 01:17:50,040
in the same way that, you know, 
the the Reach and the Storm 

1553
01:17:50,040 --> 01:17:53,040
Lands and the Riverlands and the
Westerlands. 

1554
01:17:54,080 --> 01:18:00,840
You know how those houses are 
kind of wired almost for, you 

1555
01:18:00,840 --> 01:18:05,960
know, this kind of conflict. 
Yeah, getting back closer to 

1556
01:18:07,040 --> 01:18:10,080
people that were around him and 
the Kingsguard, that would be 

1557
01:18:10,120 --> 01:18:12,920
some of them probably really 
struggled with this 'cause, you 

1558
01:18:12,920 --> 01:18:15,400
know, the Kingsguard are 
supposed to be loyal and and the

1559
01:18:15,400 --> 01:18:17,560
long history the Kingsguard 
shows that the vast majority of 

1560
01:18:17,560 --> 01:18:19,080
them had were loyal to their 
king. 

1561
01:18:19,480 --> 01:18:23,000
But there's always the Jaime 
Lannisters and the other types 

1562
01:18:23,000 --> 01:18:25,520
that felt like they had to 
switch sides. 

1563
01:18:25,520 --> 01:18:28,800
We have no evidence that any 
Kingsguard took Damon's side in 

1564
01:18:28,800 --> 01:18:31,560
this. 
But it's still interesting to 

1565
01:18:31,560 --> 01:18:33,320
consider that some of them might
have been tort. 

1566
01:18:33,320 --> 01:18:37,120
Some of them might have 
hesitated to do their duty when 

1567
01:18:37,120 --> 01:18:38,680
it came to Damon because they 
liked him. 

1568
01:18:38,680 --> 01:18:40,080
They grew. 
Some of them grew up with him at

1569
01:18:40,080 --> 01:18:41,240
court. 
And you know, that's a hard 

1570
01:18:41,240 --> 01:18:44,040
thing to to to set aside is that
friendship, these personal 

1571
01:18:44,040 --> 01:18:48,360
relationships, especially a guy 
like the influence of a guy like

1572
01:18:48,360 --> 01:18:51,000
Fireball, who was supposed to 
get a Kingsguard spot. 

1573
01:18:52,000 --> 01:18:54,960
Aegon promised him one, but 
there was no spot during his 

1574
01:18:54,960 --> 01:18:56,640
life. 
And then when Daron's kingship 

1575
01:18:56,640 --> 01:18:59,800
came around, he gave it to 
Willem Wilde instead. 

1576
01:19:00,880 --> 01:19:04,200
Ah, so did he. 
He may have made it. 

1577
01:19:04,200 --> 01:19:05,560
He certainly made an enemy 
there. 

1578
01:19:05,800 --> 01:19:07,600
Daron did. 
He may have that enemy may have 

1579
01:19:07,600 --> 01:19:09,720
already been there. 
Fireball may have been kind of a

1580
01:19:09,720 --> 01:19:11,240
natural enemy. 
Regardless of what happened. 

1581
01:19:11,440 --> 01:19:14,920
What about a situation like a 
character named Red Tusk, who we

1582
01:19:15,200 --> 01:19:18,160
all both of us believe that he 
was a Cray call knight. 

1583
01:19:18,680 --> 01:19:21,400
He was someone who has fought 
for Damon, but there was a 

1584
01:19:21,400 --> 01:19:23,040
Kingsguard named Roland 
Crakehall. 

1585
01:19:23,400 --> 01:19:26,840
What a conundrum that would be. 
And I do believe it's possible 

1586
01:19:26,840 --> 01:19:29,160
that we had houses that probably
were split with their 

1587
01:19:29,160 --> 01:19:31,040
allegiances. 
What do you think about that? 

1588
01:19:31,040 --> 01:19:33,280
You think there were a lot of 
cases like that? 

1589
01:19:33,280 --> 01:19:35,840
If I think there were, I think 
there were quite a few. 

1590
01:19:35,840 --> 01:19:38,680
I mean it definitely seems to be
a running theme in the sort of 

1591
01:19:38,680 --> 01:19:41,120
Westerosi civil wars of 
literally brother against. 

1592
01:19:41,120 --> 01:19:43,400
Brother. 
You know, and you got to think, 

1593
01:19:43,440 --> 01:19:46,680
you know, OK, so if Roland 
Crakehall is joins the 

1594
01:19:46,680 --> 01:19:49,680
Kingsguard, that means that 
someone else has to be the Lord 

1595
01:19:49,680 --> 01:19:51,600
of Crakehall. 
Yeah. 

1596
01:19:52,080 --> 01:19:55,520
If he's also a famous knight, 
that creates a certain amount of

1597
01:19:55,520 --> 01:19:58,160
tension and rival, right? 
Which of us, you know, 

1598
01:19:58,160 --> 01:20:01,000
ultimately when it comes down to
it, which is the better man? 

1599
01:20:01,200 --> 01:20:04,480
Likewise, Fireball versus 
William Wild, you know, there's 

1600
01:20:04,480 --> 01:20:07,680
got to be this kind of tension 
about, well, did you actually 

1601
01:20:07,680 --> 01:20:10,800
get this position because you 
were the better Knights or 

1602
01:20:10,800 --> 01:20:13,760
because, you know, Deron was 
playing politics? 

1603
01:20:14,360 --> 01:20:16,520
So you can definitely sort of 
see that there and you know, 

1604
01:20:16,520 --> 01:20:19,280
we're told. 
And this is, I think what makes 

1605
01:20:19,280 --> 01:20:25,400
this complicated is that Damon 
had special appeal with Knights 

1606
01:20:25,680 --> 01:20:27,760
and some of the best Knights of 
the age. 

1607
01:20:27,760 --> 01:20:31,320
So that I, I think it's sort of 
the kind of the aficionado 

1608
01:20:31,320 --> 01:20:33,920
thing. 
It's like, you know, he he's 

1609
01:20:33,920 --> 01:20:37,720
like that kind of the jazz man 
that real jazz aficionados are 

1610
01:20:37,720 --> 01:20:40,080
just crazy about. 
You know, it's sort of, you 

1611
01:20:40,080 --> 01:20:42,280
know, oh, yeah. 
There's a lot of great nights. 

1612
01:20:42,280 --> 01:20:44,880
But if you really know you're 
fighting, if you're one of those

1613
01:20:44,920 --> 01:20:48,680
like Jaime Lannister types who 
can, who just gushes about, you 

1614
01:20:48,680 --> 01:20:53,000
know, painting in red in red, 
you know, that to see Damon is 

1615
01:20:53,000 --> 01:20:56,760
like, OK, that's the real thing.
That's what I want. 

1616
01:20:57,120 --> 01:20:59,840
He's one of them, yeah. 
He was so, yeah. 

1617
01:20:59,840 --> 01:21:03,240
That makes it Yeah, it's true. 
And as his appeal grew and his 

1618
01:21:03,240 --> 01:21:07,120
popularity, so did his power. 
Those things are somewhat 

1619
01:21:07,120 --> 01:21:09,000
correlated in Westeros and in 
other places. 

1620
01:21:09,320 --> 01:21:12,360
Apparently he challenged Deron 
on some of his royal policies 

1621
01:21:12,360 --> 01:21:15,120
and decisions, which says a lot.
And even though even though 

1622
01:21:15,120 --> 01:21:17,840
Darren was a nice guy, openly 
disagreeing with the King to his

1623
01:21:17,840 --> 01:21:21,520
face is not something regular 
folk or even regular Lords do. 

1624
01:21:21,920 --> 01:21:24,200
Whether this emboldened his 
followers or whether they 

1625
01:21:24,200 --> 01:21:27,720
emboldened him is tough to 
answer, but either way, it got 

1626
01:21:27,720 --> 01:21:30,680
worse. 
So let's talk about Damon's 

1627
01:21:31,240 --> 01:21:33,920
political skills, or lack 
thereof potentially. 

1628
01:21:34,200 --> 01:21:35,800
He there these disagreements on 
policy. 

1629
01:21:35,800 --> 01:21:38,120
Of course, some of them surely 
revolved around Dorn and things 

1630
01:21:38,120 --> 01:21:40,840
like that, but what about other 
things? 

1631
01:21:40,840 --> 01:21:43,120
I'm sure there was tension 
regarding other people just 

1632
01:21:43,120 --> 01:21:45,440
coming out and saying that 
Daron's a bastard or that Damon 

1633
01:21:45,440 --> 01:21:47,000
was more worthy. 
Like apparently that was just 

1634
01:21:47,000 --> 01:21:50,600
said openly, partly because 
Daron didn't crack down hard on 

1635
01:21:50,600 --> 01:21:54,320
that kind of talk. 
So do you think Daron was too 

1636
01:21:54,320 --> 01:21:57,920
soft on these things or do you 
think it just didn't he? 

1637
01:21:57,920 --> 01:21:59,920
He had a good plan that just 
didn't work? 

1638
01:22:01,720 --> 01:22:04,440
Well, it's certainly the problem
is it didn't work. 

1639
01:22:04,440 --> 01:22:07,560
It festered. 
And you get the sense from the 

1640
01:22:07,560 --> 01:22:14,280
quote from from Martin about the
decision to to marry Daenerys 

1641
01:22:14,280 --> 01:22:18,120
into House Martel, that part of 
the reason that happened is that

1642
01:22:18,120 --> 01:22:21,800
the two of them had been 
clashing repeatedly over public 

1643
01:22:21,800 --> 01:22:26,520
policy and that people in King's
Landing were taking sides 

1644
01:22:26,520 --> 01:22:29,560
between them. 
And that one of the things that 

1645
01:22:29,880 --> 01:22:33,760
Daron did not want to have 
happen is to give Damon a 

1646
01:22:33,760 --> 01:22:36,560
massive shot of legitimacy. 
You know, you give him that 

1647
01:22:36,560 --> 01:22:41,560
Targaryen marriage, it's going 
to make him once again have an 

1648
01:22:41,560 --> 01:22:43,640
even stronger claim to the 
throne. 

1649
01:22:43,920 --> 01:22:46,760
You don't want that. 
So, you know, it definitely 

1650
01:22:46,760 --> 01:22:52,280
seems like as a, as a kind of a,
a conflict goes, it was not one 

1651
01:22:52,280 --> 01:22:54,800
sided. 
This was not just Damon being an

1652
01:22:54,800 --> 01:22:56,560
asshole because he's an. 
Asshole. 

1653
01:22:57,040 --> 01:23:00,000
It's these are two guys who 
recognize that there's a certain

1654
01:23:00,040 --> 01:23:05,000
0 sum game when it comes to 
legitimacy and authority in 

1655
01:23:05,000 --> 01:23:05,880
court. 
Right on. 

1656
01:23:05,880 --> 01:23:08,920
And let's jump ahead to 
something that he did while he 

1657
01:23:08,920 --> 01:23:12,640
was king to get an idea of the 
type of politician he was. 

1658
01:23:13,240 --> 01:23:15,360
Now, of course, you take this 
the grain of salt because we 

1659
01:23:15,360 --> 01:23:18,000
don't know that this was his 
idea, as as we've said many 

1660
01:23:18,000 --> 01:23:21,640
times, he had plenty of advisors
and it's impossible to know 

1661
01:23:21,640 --> 01:23:24,760
whether some of these policies 
were his own ideas or whether 

1662
01:23:24,760 --> 01:23:30,040
they were suggestions pushed on 
him by his followers, his his 

1663
01:23:30,040 --> 01:23:32,680
inner circle. 
He makes his own coins during 

1664
01:23:32,680 --> 01:23:34,560
his rebellion, he mints his own 
coins. 

1665
01:23:34,920 --> 01:23:37,240
So, Stephen, I know you have a 
lot to say about the coin issue,

1666
01:23:37,240 --> 01:23:41,360
so fire away. 
Yeah, I think we can learn a lot

1667
01:23:41,360 --> 01:23:44,160
about Damon's qualities as a 
politician from the fact that he

1668
01:23:44,200 --> 01:23:47,560
he minted his own coins. 
You know, all too often, I think

1669
01:23:47,560 --> 01:23:50,880
it's kind of easy to dismiss 
Damon as a mindless jock, as 

1670
01:23:50,880 --> 01:23:53,840
someone who just sort of 
cavalierly charged his way into 

1671
01:23:53,840 --> 01:23:57,360
glory and death. 
But I think this coin shows that

1672
01:23:57,360 --> 01:24:00,120
Damon was also someone who 
understood institutional power, 

1673
01:24:00,120 --> 01:24:03,800
that Senorage literally the 
right of the sovereign to make 

1674
01:24:03,800 --> 01:24:09,120
coins and taxation, IE that you 
can compel people to use this 

1675
01:24:09,120 --> 01:24:12,800
coin to pay their taxes and to 
buy good, you know, goods and 

1676
01:24:12,800 --> 01:24:15,240
services. 
These things are really 

1677
01:24:15,240 --> 01:24:19,120
important in terms of being able
to equip and supply armies and 

1678
01:24:19,120 --> 01:24:21,720
buy mercenaries. 
And during the, you know, as 

1679
01:24:21,720 --> 01:24:25,000
we'll talk about during the Red 
Grass episode, he needed those 

1680
01:24:25,000 --> 01:24:26,240
things. 
If you're going to start a 

1681
01:24:26,240 --> 01:24:28,920
rebellion, you know, and this is
the kind of the amazing thing, 

1682
01:24:28,920 --> 01:24:31,280
right? 
He starts a rebellion not as a 

1683
01:24:31,280 --> 01:24:33,200
Lord paramount, as a landed 
knight. 

1684
01:24:33,280 --> 01:24:34,800
That's unusual. 
You know. 

1685
01:24:35,280 --> 01:24:39,760
At the lowest, yeah, At really 
the lowest point on the feudal 

1686
01:24:39,920 --> 01:24:43,720
totem pole. 
And he almost gets away with it.

1687
01:24:43,720 --> 01:24:47,640
Well, in order to do that, you 
really need a strong financial, 

1688
01:24:48,120 --> 01:24:51,040
you know, foundation. 
Likewise, I think it also shows 

1689
01:24:51,040 --> 01:24:52,800
an understanding of the power of
symbolism. 

1690
01:24:52,800 --> 01:24:55,360
Obviously, he already had black 
fire. 

1691
01:24:55,520 --> 01:24:57,760
He kind of knew that symbols 
were a big deal. 

1692
01:24:58,400 --> 01:25:03,000
But the thing about coins is if 
people are willing to take them,

1693
01:25:03,320 --> 01:25:07,200
if they're willing to pay taxes 
with them, if the Lords accept 

1694
01:25:07,200 --> 01:25:10,000
those as payment for taxes and 
then use them to pay their own 

1695
01:25:10,000 --> 01:25:14,800
taxes, that means at a certain 
basic level you are the king. 

1696
01:25:15,800 --> 01:25:20,240
If if you think about it, for 
90% of the population, right, 

1697
01:25:20,640 --> 01:25:22,200
they're never going to see the 
king. 

1698
01:25:22,600 --> 01:25:24,440
They're never going to interact 
with the king. 

1699
01:25:24,440 --> 01:25:27,760
Chances are no royal decree is 
ever really going to change 

1700
01:25:27,760 --> 01:25:29,640
their lives that much unless 
there's a war. 

1701
01:25:30,400 --> 01:25:35,040
But coins are that one aspect 
are that one thing that really 

1702
01:25:35,320 --> 01:25:39,040
kind of act as a connection 
between the individual subject 

1703
01:25:39,040 --> 01:25:42,520
and their and their monarch. 
And Damon understood that in a 

1704
01:25:42,520 --> 01:25:47,040
way that no other royal 
pretender in A Song of Ice and 

1705
01:25:47,040 --> 01:25:50,720
Fire understood. 
I mean, Renly who understood 

1706
01:25:50,920 --> 01:25:54,320
symbolism, you know, we saw that
with the the pageants and the 

1707
01:25:54,320 --> 01:25:57,240
tourneys, but he didn't really 
understand institutions. 

1708
01:25:57,760 --> 01:26:00,280
Rob, who at least, you know, at 
least tried to make his own 

1709
01:26:00,280 --> 01:26:01,960
coins. 
But again, that was a, a 

1710
01:26:01,960 --> 01:26:04,360
suggestion from outside, you 
know, that came from the 

1711
01:26:04,360 --> 01:26:08,360
Mandarin Joffrey Baylon. 
They didn't really seem to get 

1712
01:26:08,360 --> 01:26:11,040
this. 
It is really quite interesting 

1713
01:26:11,040 --> 01:26:14,600
that one of the first things he 
does when he raises his banners 

1714
01:26:15,040 --> 01:26:17,920
is to set up a royal 
bureaucracy. 

1715
01:26:17,920 --> 01:26:20,160
Yeah, it's really neat. 
He he, he, he was in it for the 

1716
01:26:20,160 --> 01:26:22,960
long run. 
This wasn't a go straight for 

1717
01:26:22,960 --> 01:26:26,120
the throat, take out the king 
and then take the throne. 

1718
01:26:26,120 --> 01:26:28,600
This was a set and this is all 
campaign. 

1719
01:26:28,680 --> 01:26:32,360
It was a long series of getting 
followers, you know, trying to 

1720
01:26:32,360 --> 01:26:34,880
swing people to his side of the 
cause, getting the neutrals on 

1721
01:26:34,880 --> 01:26:37,480
his side and and like you said, 
establishing himself like 

1722
01:26:37,480 --> 01:26:39,960
saying, look, I've got coins. 
I'm I'm legit. 

1723
01:26:40,040 --> 01:26:42,000
You know, he crowned himself, 
did all these things. 

1724
01:26:42,800 --> 01:26:46,160
And there's another recurring 
theme here that the Black Fire 

1725
01:26:46,160 --> 01:26:49,000
propagandists, I'll call them, 
drew attention to. 

1726
01:26:49,440 --> 01:26:51,760
It seemed to be effective 
because it was true in a sense. 

1727
01:26:51,920 --> 01:26:54,640
It may not be true how much it 
mattered, but it was true on the

1728
01:26:54,640 --> 01:26:57,920
surface, which is that Daron was
not martial at all. 

1729
01:26:57,920 --> 01:27:01,120
He had a weak body, along with 
his Dornish court, which gave 

1730
01:27:01,120 --> 01:27:03,560
greater rights to women, which 
is very relevant here. 

1731
01:27:04,200 --> 01:27:06,720
That's not very traditional. 
That's progressive. 

1732
01:27:07,360 --> 01:27:09,760
And his looks, or his books, 
rather. 

1733
01:27:09,800 --> 01:27:11,760
And his looks. 
They found a lot of fodder. 

1734
01:27:12,360 --> 01:27:14,560
Basically, a lot of things 
considered feminine or not 

1735
01:27:14,560 --> 01:27:18,080
masculine about Daron were 
whispered or flat out trumpeted,

1736
01:27:18,280 --> 01:27:21,600
and this eroded his authority a 
bit in favor of Damon. 

1737
01:27:21,760 --> 01:27:24,760
What could Daron do about it? 
Well, it's hard to go after such

1738
01:27:24,760 --> 01:27:28,080
a popular figure. 
Daron wasn't the kind of guy to 

1739
01:27:28,080 --> 01:27:30,800
play dirty either, so he was 
left with weathering the storm 

1740
01:27:30,800 --> 01:27:34,000
and seeing what happened. 
As we detailed in the last Black

1741
01:27:34,000 --> 01:27:36,920
Fire episode, the big shift was 
the addition of Doron not only 

1742
01:27:36,920 --> 01:27:40,040
to the realm, but to court. 
They advised, Entertained. 

1743
01:27:40,160 --> 01:27:42,880
We're part of the family. 
More fodder for propaganda, 

1744
01:27:43,640 --> 01:27:45,600
though again, we don't know how 
Damon himself felt. 

1745
01:27:45,920 --> 01:27:48,760
Meanwhile, Damon Blackfire was 
built up as some kind of arch 

1746
01:27:48,840 --> 01:27:53,280
alpha male aligned to the ideals
of chivalrous Westeros. 1 mark 

1747
01:27:53,280 --> 01:27:55,480
of manhood in Westeros's 
fathering sons. 

1748
01:27:55,480 --> 01:27:58,440
Of course it's ridiculous to us.
But again, he had seven. 

1749
01:27:58,560 --> 01:28:00,600
That's huge. 
But what's funny about that is 

1750
01:28:00,600 --> 01:28:04,080
Daron had four. 
And over time, Daron's sons 

1751
01:28:04,280 --> 01:28:06,520
fought Damon's sons several 
times. 

1752
01:28:06,520 --> 01:28:08,720
And Daron's sons were the ones 
that kept coming out ahead. 

1753
01:28:10,160 --> 01:28:12,240
They would just Damons would 
just keep losing. 

1754
01:28:12,560 --> 01:28:14,400
But back to where we were. 
That's way in the future. 

1755
01:28:14,720 --> 01:28:17,880
We're in the one 90s now, the 
early one 90s, and the rebellion

1756
01:28:17,880 --> 01:28:22,280
will break out in 196. 
These same ambitious men, the 

1757
01:28:22,280 --> 01:28:26,080
Nameless ones, along with Bitter
Steel Fireball, possibly Day in 

1758
01:28:26,080 --> 01:28:29,400
the Defiant and surely some 
others pushed him to become 

1759
01:28:29,400 --> 01:28:32,080
king. 
At first we hear that he may be 

1760
01:28:32,080 --> 01:28:35,680
entertained the idea because it 
propped up his ego, his vanity. 

1761
01:28:35,880 --> 01:28:38,200
He liked it. 
He liked being told how great he

1762
01:28:38,200 --> 01:28:41,280
was, but it just kept going. 
And maybe that's what they knew.

1763
01:28:41,280 --> 01:28:43,840
Maybe his supporters realized 
they were on something. 

1764
01:28:43,840 --> 01:28:45,760
They're like, look, if we just 
keep pushing him, eventually 

1765
01:28:45,760 --> 01:28:47,880
he'll do it. 
He likes being told this. 

1766
01:28:48,000 --> 01:28:49,600
All I got to do is keep pushing 
him and he'll get to that 

1767
01:28:49,600 --> 01:28:52,080
breaking point. 
Is that kind of what how you 

1768
01:28:52,080 --> 01:28:54,600
feel about it or do you think 
there was something else before?

1769
01:28:54,600 --> 01:28:56,880
We're getting close to the point
where he actually rebels and 

1770
01:28:56,880 --> 01:28:58,440
we'll review the thing that was 
the trigger. 

1771
01:28:58,960 --> 01:29:00,600
But what do you think about 
this? 

1772
01:29:00,600 --> 01:29:03,960
It took so long and there were 
so many people pushing him for 

1773
01:29:03,960 --> 01:29:07,120
so long. 
Yeah, that, that is the tricky 

1774
01:29:07,120 --> 01:29:10,160
thing because there's a lack of 
a catalyst, because there's a 

1775
01:29:10,160 --> 01:29:13,520
lack of a sort of, you know, an 
incident that sets everything 

1776
01:29:13,520 --> 01:29:17,440
off and because we don't know 
how long the preparations went 

1777
01:29:17,440 --> 01:29:20,400
on for. 
Did you know, had had he been 

1778
01:29:20,400 --> 01:29:22,120
planning this ever since the 
marriage? 

1779
01:29:22,120 --> 01:29:24,320
Had he been planning this ever 
since? 

1780
01:29:24,320 --> 01:29:26,280
I don't know. 
He had a really bad fight with 

1781
01:29:26,320 --> 01:29:31,800
with Deron over something we 
don't know, but clearly, you 

1782
01:29:31,800 --> 01:29:34,880
know, at some point he was 
getting very, very close to 

1783
01:29:34,880 --> 01:29:38,400
this. 
And the interesting question is,

1784
01:29:38,400 --> 01:29:41,320
what is what he thought the next
step was? 

1785
01:29:41,960 --> 01:29:46,200
Yes, really it's true and that 
we'll get into a little bit more

1786
01:29:46,200 --> 01:29:49,560
in the red grass field episode 
like what his plans were what he

1787
01:29:49,560 --> 01:29:51,800
was thinking and how he would 
you know how he proceeded 

1788
01:29:51,800 --> 01:29:53,320
because we're actually going to 
see some of those things put 

1789
01:29:53,320 --> 01:29:57,120
into into play. 
But in the meantime, Damon's, 

1790
01:29:58,040 --> 01:30:00,400
whether directly from him or his
followers, mostly from his 

1791
01:30:00,400 --> 01:30:03,040
followers, I assume it was 
basically this kind of I'm the 

1792
01:30:03,040 --> 01:30:06,400
best propaganda and it was 
rooted in some truth. 

1793
01:30:06,560 --> 01:30:09,120
He in a lot of ways, he kind of 
was the best, depending on how 

1794
01:30:09,120 --> 01:30:11,040
you define the best. 
I'm not saying he was the best 

1795
01:30:11,040 --> 01:30:14,240
king, but in in the the things 
that Damon's followers cared 

1796
01:30:14,240 --> 01:30:17,280
about, he was #1 in those 
regards, he was really a 

1797
01:30:17,280 --> 01:30:19,160
chivalrous guy. 
That doesn't seem to be an act 

1798
01:30:19,160 --> 01:30:21,360
or, or. 
He was an incredible actor. 

1799
01:30:23,880 --> 01:30:26,800
So as much as I harp on Damon's 
reasons for rebelling, I'm 

1800
01:30:26,800 --> 01:30:29,680
guessing his men were far better
behaved than most. 

1801
01:30:29,800 --> 01:30:32,480
It's real hard to be that drawn 
to someone's charisma and not 

1802
01:30:32,480 --> 01:30:35,520
emulate their most conspicuous 
traits so well. 

1803
01:30:35,520 --> 01:30:37,120
Except those ambitious men, of 
course. 

1804
01:30:37,400 --> 01:30:40,440
They would at least have to 
pretend to be decent men though,

1805
01:30:40,440 --> 01:30:42,360
right? 
Maybe not actually. 

1806
01:30:43,280 --> 01:30:45,240
So that's kind of good though, 
right? 

1807
01:30:45,240 --> 01:30:48,440
That Damon's inspiring nightly 
virtues and his followers? 

1808
01:30:49,280 --> 01:30:54,080
Well, maybe not because the guy 
who was king was already a very 

1809
01:30:54,080 --> 01:30:58,480
virtuous, ethical, fair, capable
man of peace. 

1810
01:30:58,480 --> 01:31:03,040
He wasn't perfect, but what was 
the need for a change in that 

1811
01:31:03,040 --> 01:31:04,160
regard? 
It wasn't. 

1812
01:31:04,240 --> 01:31:07,840
It wasn't about those things. 
It wasn't about being more 

1813
01:31:07,840 --> 01:31:10,880
chivalrous. 
It was about hating the Dornish,

1814
01:31:10,880 --> 01:31:13,960
being ambitious, and a lot of 
other things. 

1815
01:31:14,320 --> 01:31:16,360
So let's look at how that went 
though, because we're about 

1816
01:31:16,360 --> 01:31:19,760
ready for Damon to declare 
himself 1st. 

1817
01:31:19,760 --> 01:31:22,960
A shout out to Dagron Marshall 
of the Axe and captain of the 

1818
01:31:22,960 --> 01:31:26,560
Red Tide, a cell sword company 
whose motto is Resistance is 

1819
01:31:26,560 --> 01:31:29,360
futile. 
He is a Patreon supporter of 

1820
01:31:29,360 --> 01:31:31,240
ours now. 
If Patreon isn't for you, you 

1821
01:31:31,240 --> 01:31:33,360
can always go to 
historyofwesteros.com and click 

1822
01:31:33,360 --> 01:31:36,160
on the donate button to send us 
a silver stag or two through 

1823
01:31:36,160 --> 01:31:38,520
PayPal. 
You can even request a shout out

1824
01:31:38,560 --> 01:31:40,080
like that one. 
Just let us know. 

1825
01:31:41,840 --> 01:31:48,120
Part 4 The Black Dragon arises. 
There was no final insult, no 

1826
01:31:48,120 --> 01:31:51,280
great wrong that led Damon 
Blackfyre to turn against King 

1827
01:31:51,280 --> 01:31:53,880
Daron. 
Nor do we know exactly when 

1828
01:31:53,880 --> 01:31:57,520
plans to do so, to actually do 
the usurping, got underway. 

1829
01:31:57,800 --> 01:32:00,920
So let's discuss that and the 
convergence of all these factors

1830
01:32:00,920 --> 01:32:03,880
that led to it. 
First of all, there's these 

1831
01:32:03,880 --> 01:32:05,480
questions of legitimacy 
remaining. 

1832
01:32:05,480 --> 01:32:08,320
Another quote here. 
Others still named him Daron 

1833
01:32:08,320 --> 01:32:11,640
Falseborn, repeating the calumny
that Aegon the Unworthy himself 

1834
01:32:11,640 --> 01:32:14,240
was said to have circulated in 
the later years of his reign, 

1835
01:32:14,400 --> 01:32:17,280
that he had been sired not by 
the king, but by his brother, 

1836
01:32:17,280 --> 01:32:20,320
the Dragon Knight. 
Funny how rumors stick around 

1837
01:32:20,320 --> 01:32:24,920
when so many are resting such 
hopes on people believing it so.

1838
01:32:25,760 --> 01:32:28,440
And, of course, those rumors got
stronger the later, you know, 

1839
01:32:28,440 --> 01:32:30,440
the closer we got to the 
rebellion, I would assume. 

1840
01:32:31,200 --> 01:32:32,560
So what do you think about some 
of these things? 

1841
01:32:32,560 --> 01:32:33,400
We have these. 
We have this. 

1842
01:32:33,400 --> 01:32:35,840
The factional disputes carried 
over from his father's 

1843
01:32:35,840 --> 01:32:36,920
administration. 
That's a big one. 

1844
01:32:36,960 --> 01:32:38,600
Yeah. 
We'll start there. 

1845
01:32:38,920 --> 01:32:40,200
Yeah. 
And especially the way that the 

1846
01:32:40,200 --> 01:32:43,600
the factional disputes kind of 
play into these regional 

1847
01:32:43,720 --> 01:32:47,920
differences that, you know, the 
these factions are not evenly 

1848
01:32:47,920 --> 01:32:50,280
spread across the whole of 
Westeros, that they're very 

1849
01:32:50,600 --> 01:32:55,440
concentrated in the Reach, in 
the Stormlands, in the Dornish 

1850
01:32:55,440 --> 01:32:57,200
Marches. 
You know, that gives it a real 

1851
01:32:57,200 --> 01:33:04,880
kind of an intensity, you know, 
people, you know, because 

1852
01:33:04,880 --> 01:33:08,160
there's a concentration that 
means that a lot of people are 

1853
01:33:08,560 --> 01:33:13,400
around other people who agree 
with them most of the time, so 

1854
01:33:13,400 --> 01:33:17,480
that they begin to see their 
position as more self evidently 

1855
01:33:17,480 --> 01:33:22,840
true and less up for debate. 
Now, so that's, those are those 

1856
01:33:22,840 --> 01:33:25,280
are obviously all huge factors, 
many others that we've covered 

1857
01:33:25,280 --> 01:33:26,800
already. 
We've got bitter steel pushing 

1858
01:33:26,800 --> 01:33:28,320
him. 
We've got the Dornish situation,

1859
01:33:28,320 --> 01:33:32,520
we've got Daenerys situation, 
we've got the propaganda against

1860
01:33:32,520 --> 01:33:35,560
Darren. 
There's so many things yet none 

1861
01:33:35,560 --> 01:33:37,000
of these things were the 
trigger. 

1862
01:33:37,120 --> 01:33:39,400
None of them. 
They were all reasons why things

1863
01:33:39,400 --> 01:33:43,400
were boiling up. 
But the actual trigger still is 

1864
01:33:43,400 --> 01:33:45,600
a little bit yet to come. 
We're almost there if the 

1865
01:33:45,600 --> 01:33:48,680
stories are true. 
Damon was planning on crowning 

1866
01:33:48,680 --> 01:33:52,840
himself, but Bloodraven 
discovered it somehow. 

1867
01:33:53,920 --> 01:33:56,840
We don't know exactly how. 
And he was outed. 

1868
01:33:57,800 --> 01:34:00,120
And we'll get to those details 
in a minute. 

1869
01:34:00,120 --> 01:34:03,560
But what do we think Damon's 
actual plan was for taking the 

1870
01:34:03,560 --> 01:34:05,760
throne? 
Was it a palace coup, do you 

1871
01:34:05,760 --> 01:34:09,720
think? 
Or a plan to go out and Marshall

1872
01:34:09,720 --> 01:34:12,400
some armies and, and come out? 
That might have been too easy to

1873
01:34:12,400 --> 01:34:13,200
detect. 
I don't know. 

1874
01:34:13,200 --> 01:34:15,080
It's, it's, it's hard to say. 
What do you think, Steven? 

1875
01:34:15,920 --> 01:34:17,520
Yeah, I mean, there's a bunch of
possibilities. 

1876
01:34:17,560 --> 01:34:21,080
A palace to obviously kind of 
appeals to the kind of Marshall,

1877
01:34:21,160 --> 01:34:23,880
you know, just do it. 
And on the chilli, Chilli, on 

1878
01:34:24,880 --> 01:34:27,720
the other hand, you know, you do
need to present a good image. 

1879
01:34:27,720 --> 01:34:30,720
You know, he doesn't want to be 
seen as a Magor. 

1880
01:34:30,720 --> 01:34:32,680
He wants to be seen as a 
rightful kid. 

1881
01:34:33,640 --> 01:34:37,760
So it is quite possible that he 
thought that, for example, you 

1882
01:34:37,760 --> 01:34:42,440
know, he would bring forward 
some sort of proof about Daron 

1883
01:34:42,440 --> 01:34:46,480
being a bastard. 
And, you know, maybe, you know, 

1884
01:34:46,680 --> 01:34:49,360
the the interesting thing is, 
you know, there was always, you 

1885
01:34:49,360 --> 01:34:53,880
know, given all of these rumors 
about, you know, Aegon the 4th 

1886
01:34:53,880 --> 01:35:00,000
disinheriting his his son, you 
know, maybe there was a a draft 

1887
01:35:00,000 --> 01:35:02,880
will made at some point that 
disinherited him that he could 

1888
01:35:02,920 --> 01:35:05,760
produce. 
It's possible that he would have

1889
01:35:05,760 --> 01:35:08,920
wanted to prove this at a trial 
by combat. 

1890
01:35:09,400 --> 01:35:11,560
Oh, Damon's followers would love
that idea, I think. 

1891
01:35:12,000 --> 01:35:12,960
Yeah. 
I don't know about the rest of 

1892
01:35:12,960 --> 01:35:15,360
the realm, but Damon's followers
were like, yes, you know, 

1893
01:35:15,360 --> 01:35:18,400
followed by combat. 
It could have been a trial of 

1894
01:35:18,400 --> 01:35:20,520
seven. 
That's another kind of, you 

1895
01:35:20,520 --> 01:35:25,120
know, again, traditional old 
school martial, you know, 

1896
01:35:25,120 --> 01:35:28,440
religious way of doing things. 
Is it possible that he could 

1897
01:35:28,440 --> 01:35:30,080
have wanted to call a great 
council? 

1898
01:35:31,520 --> 01:35:34,400
Yeah, I, I, I kind of, Yeah, 
it's possible. 

1899
01:35:34,400 --> 01:35:35,640
The great call. 
I'm a little bit down on that 

1900
01:35:35,640 --> 01:35:38,680
idea because he seemed to want 
to force the issue rather than 

1901
01:35:38,680 --> 01:35:41,040
letting people decide. 
But it's definitely possible. 

1902
01:35:41,040 --> 01:35:43,040
Definitely. 
Especially if he thought his 

1903
01:35:43,040 --> 01:35:46,120
support was popular enough and 
that would be a peaceful way to 

1904
01:35:46,120 --> 01:35:48,680
take the throne instead of 
fighting for it. 

1905
01:35:48,960 --> 01:35:52,480
Yeah, definitely possible, but 
probably lower on the list of 

1906
01:35:52,480 --> 01:35:56,080
possibilities. 
So what apparently happened was 

1907
01:35:56,800 --> 01:36:00,800
Darren was told by Bloodraven 
that this plan was going to 

1908
01:36:00,800 --> 01:36:03,080
happen. 
Now, we'll talk about that more 

1909
01:36:03,080 --> 01:36:04,960
in the Blood Raven episode. 
If it's possible Blood Raven 

1910
01:36:04,960 --> 01:36:08,960
made this up, it's possible or 
he exaggerated the the threat to

1911
01:36:08,960 --> 01:36:12,000
make to make Deron take action. 
He may have been tired of Deron 

1912
01:36:12,000 --> 01:36:14,640
just letting the situation 
develop getting worse and worse.

1913
01:36:14,680 --> 01:36:16,120
It's like, hey, you need to take
action. 

1914
01:36:16,200 --> 01:36:17,720
I'm going to trick you into 
taking action. 

1915
01:36:18,040 --> 01:36:19,960
We'll talk about that possibly 
more on the Blood Raven episode.

1916
01:36:19,960 --> 01:36:22,160
I like that idea, so keep it in 
the back of your head. 

1917
01:36:22,320 --> 01:36:24,160
But for now, just sticking to 
the surface. 

1918
01:36:25,080 --> 01:36:28,240
Damon's arrest was ordered. 
Either Fireball was there when 

1919
01:36:28,240 --> 01:36:31,160
it happened or he knew of the 
pending arrest through his own 

1920
01:36:31,480 --> 01:36:34,720
kind of background channels. 
And in what must have been a 

1921
01:36:34,720 --> 01:36:38,320
really epic scene that I hope we
get to see somehow. 

1922
01:36:38,720 --> 01:36:40,400
I don't know where we get to see
it. 

1923
01:36:41,040 --> 01:36:44,360
Fireball helped Damon escape the
Kingsguard, the Red Keep and 

1924
01:36:44,360 --> 01:36:46,560
presumably the city. 
That there was probably some 

1925
01:36:46,560 --> 01:36:47,920
fighting involved. 
We don't hear about anyone 

1926
01:36:47,920 --> 01:36:51,880
getting killed, but I bet swords
were drawn, you know, and, and 

1927
01:36:52,640 --> 01:36:53,960
may have. 
It probably wasn't like 

1928
01:36:53,960 --> 01:36:56,160
Barristan's escape because 
Barristan was faced with, you 

1929
01:36:56,160 --> 01:36:59,240
know, gold cloaks who were kind 
of, you know, out of his, you 

1930
01:36:59,240 --> 01:37:01,680
know, well beneath him. 
This was this. 

1931
01:37:02,480 --> 01:37:06,360
This is taking no chances, Yeah.
And but you wonder what we 

1932
01:37:06,360 --> 01:37:08,520
talked about before. 
Maybe the Kingsguard hesitated a

1933
01:37:08,520 --> 01:37:11,360
little. 
Maybe they were like, do we have

1934
01:37:11,360 --> 01:37:13,720
to? 
Maybe one or two of them did. 

1935
01:37:13,720 --> 01:37:15,360
Some of them are like, finally 
we're going to get rid of this 

1936
01:37:15,360 --> 01:37:19,120
stupid traitor. 
Maybe Gwen Corbray was one of 

1937
01:37:19,120 --> 01:37:22,400
the guys that was sent to arrest
Damon, and maybe Gwen Corbray 

1938
01:37:22,400 --> 01:37:25,560
felt that he failed, and maybe 
that's why he sought Damon out 

1939
01:37:25,560 --> 01:37:28,320
on the red grass field later to 
avenge his failure. 

1940
01:37:29,080 --> 01:37:31,120
I like that idea. 
I have nothing to back it up 

1941
01:37:31,120 --> 01:37:33,120
other than conjecture, but it 
sounds cool to me. 

1942
01:37:34,760 --> 01:37:36,920
Now who else? 
Let's talk about who else would 

1943
01:37:36,920 --> 01:37:39,680
have gone with Damon? 
Who escaped with him? 

1944
01:37:40,720 --> 01:37:42,440
Damon and Fireball, of course, 
got out. 

1945
01:37:42,440 --> 01:37:44,400
If Bittersteel was there, maybe 
he got out with them. 

1946
01:37:45,320 --> 01:37:47,880
What if Damon, if Dana the 
Defiant was around, I don't know

1947
01:37:47,880 --> 01:37:49,760
if she would have escaped. 
Yeah. 

1948
01:37:50,320 --> 01:37:55,880
You know, certainly his Damon's 
family, we're probably, you 

1949
01:37:55,880 --> 01:37:59,120
know, the, the, the tricky thing
is we're not exactly sure where 

1950
01:37:59,120 --> 01:38:02,400
his, his, his land, Damon's 
lands were. 

1951
01:38:03,560 --> 01:38:05,640
You know, we're told that they 
were on the Blackwater. 

1952
01:38:05,640 --> 01:38:09,640
That's probably too close to the
city to actually stay, But he 

1953
01:38:09,640 --> 01:38:13,440
definitely got his family out. 
I mean, because we know from the

1954
01:38:13,440 --> 01:38:18,200
case of Damon the Second that, 
you know, they were living 

1955
01:38:18,200 --> 01:38:21,000
fairly close to the Cockshaws. 
Yes. 

1956
01:38:21,600 --> 01:38:25,360
And you know, while I don't 
really have much of A basis of 

1957
01:38:25,360 --> 01:38:28,920
this besides just counting which
houses supported him, I think he

1958
01:38:28,920 --> 01:38:30,440
went to the reach. 
I agree. 

1959
01:38:30,440 --> 01:38:35,640
I think that was the only. 
I mean storm lands are way too 

1960
01:38:35,640 --> 01:38:38,480
close to the the capital. 
Brath. 

1961
01:38:38,480 --> 01:38:41,600
With Brath, he's probably being 
loyal to Deron as well. 

1962
01:38:41,920 --> 01:38:44,520
Yeah, it's, it's, you know, the 
reach is big. 

1963
01:38:45,040 --> 01:38:47,040
There's a lot of places that you
can hide out. 

1964
01:38:47,480 --> 01:38:49,240
There's a lot of his supporters 
are there. 

1965
01:38:49,240 --> 01:38:51,960
They're not going to be, you 
know, friendly to the Dornish. 

1966
01:38:51,960 --> 01:38:53,400
Yeah, it's the heart of chivalry
too. 

1967
01:38:54,000 --> 01:38:57,760
I would imagine that his 
supporters very largely came 

1968
01:38:57,760 --> 01:38:59,080
from the Reach, like a very high
percentage. 

1969
01:38:59,080 --> 01:39:01,520
He probably had more support 
there than any other region. 

1970
01:39:04,120 --> 01:39:06,600
And like you said, the the the 
Reach is very full of the 

1971
01:39:06,600 --> 01:39:09,560
Dornish xenophobias or out. 
You can call it racism if you 

1972
01:39:09,560 --> 01:39:11,640
want. 
And they're not big fans of 

1973
01:39:11,640 --> 01:39:13,680
peace. 
They're they love fighting, they

1974
01:39:13,680 --> 01:39:15,600
love tournaments, they love 
chivalry and all those things. 

1975
01:39:15,600 --> 01:39:17,840
And Deron was a threat to all 
that. 

1976
01:39:19,680 --> 01:39:25,880
But Despite that, despite all 
this talk of chivalry, it's it 

1977
01:39:25,880 --> 01:39:28,040
doesn't necessarily fit in some 
regards. 

1978
01:39:28,040 --> 01:39:31,040
This is kind of interesting, I 
think as Damon escaped, you 

1979
01:39:31,040 --> 01:39:33,160
know, words are are wind. 
Of course, there's lots of 

1980
01:39:33,160 --> 01:39:35,520
people who said they'd support 
him, who indicated they probably

1981
01:39:35,520 --> 01:39:38,280
would, They were backing him. 
Who amongst Damon supporters 

1982
01:39:38,280 --> 01:39:40,680
would actually rise for him when
it came to war? 

1983
01:39:41,200 --> 01:39:43,680
Ultimately? 
Well, a lot. 

1984
01:39:44,440 --> 01:39:46,520
In our episode on the war 
itself, we'll list as many as we

1985
01:39:46,520 --> 01:39:47,640
can. 
We're going to offer some 

1986
01:39:47,640 --> 01:39:50,240
conjectures, some good theories 
on which houses fought for which

1987
01:39:50,240 --> 01:39:53,160
side. 
But for now, old Sir Eustace 

1988
01:39:53,160 --> 01:39:56,360
will tell us why he did so. 
Why lad? 

1989
01:39:56,520 --> 01:39:59,640
You ask me why? 
Because Damon was the better 

1990
01:39:59,640 --> 01:40:02,000
man. 
The old King saw it too. 

1991
01:40:02,040 --> 01:40:05,280
He gave the sword to Damon 
Blackfyre, the Sword of Egon the

1992
01:40:05,280 --> 01:40:08,760
Conqueror, the blade that every 
Targaryen king had wielded since

1993
01:40:08,760 --> 01:40:11,120
the Conquest. 
He put that sword in Damon's 

1994
01:40:11,120 --> 01:40:13,400
hand the day he knighted him, a 
boy of 12. 

1995
01:40:14,320 --> 01:40:17,520
We get the sense a lot of people
felt this way about Damon, about

1996
01:40:17,520 --> 01:40:20,040
the sword, about what it meant, 
about being the better man. 

1997
01:40:20,400 --> 01:40:22,760
But how honest were they being 
with themselves? 

1998
01:40:22,800 --> 01:40:24,800
This is not a good reason to 
rebel. 

1999
01:40:24,800 --> 01:40:27,600
Not in my opinion, anyway. 
There was no tyranny, no 

2000
01:40:27,600 --> 01:40:30,480
oppression. 
Damon wasn't treated unfairly. 

2001
01:40:30,480 --> 01:40:32,960
Even arguably, there's a there's
a good more. 

2002
01:40:32,960 --> 01:40:35,640
Here's another good opportunity 
for a comparison to A Song of 

2003
01:40:35,640 --> 01:40:38,200
Ice and Pyre proper. 
Damon has several things in 

2004
01:40:38,200 --> 01:40:40,080
common with Robert Baratheon, as
we said at the beginning of this

2005
01:40:40,080 --> 01:40:42,440
episode. 
In this spot, he's more like 

2006
01:40:42,440 --> 01:40:46,920
Renly, A charismatic guy with a 
claim clearly trumped by a close

2007
01:40:46,920 --> 01:40:49,080
relative. 
For both Renly Baratheon and 

2008
01:40:49,080 --> 01:40:52,600
Damon Blackfyre, popularity 
trumped the rule of law. 

2009
01:40:52,840 --> 01:40:55,560
People loved these two way more 
than they loved Stannis and 

2010
01:40:55,560 --> 01:40:58,920
Deron, respectively. 
So, Tywin, you're wrong. 

2011
01:40:59,000 --> 01:41:04,600
Love is stronger than fear, man.
As an aside, Stannis actually 

2012
01:41:04,600 --> 01:41:06,680
understood this. 
He knew love was better than 

2013
01:41:06,680 --> 01:41:09,200
respect or fear, but he knew no 
one loved him. 

2014
01:41:09,200 --> 01:41:11,400
And you can't be what you're 
not. 

2015
01:41:11,400 --> 01:41:14,280
You can't make people love you. 
But look at their examples. 

2016
01:41:14,520 --> 01:41:16,680
It's it's really interesting. 
It's another example of George 

2017
01:41:16,680 --> 01:41:19,480
really making sure all these 
details fit to. 

2018
01:41:19,560 --> 01:41:22,040
So let's look at that. 
Stannis had Robert to see the 

2019
01:41:22,040 --> 01:41:24,320
power of charisma first hand. 
All his life he lived in that 

2020
01:41:24,320 --> 01:41:27,280
shadow. 
Meanwhile, Tywin's father tried 

2021
01:41:27,280 --> 01:41:31,000
to be loved but turned out to be
an ultra disgrace, especially 

2022
01:41:31,000 --> 01:41:32,960
from Tywin's point of view. 
Now who else? 

2023
01:41:33,440 --> 01:41:36,280
Things like Tywin in this 
regard, Tywin's descendants, 

2024
01:41:36,520 --> 01:41:40,160
Joffrey, Cersei, etcetera. 
They both have said things 

2025
01:41:40,160 --> 01:41:42,640
almost exactly like this. 
Now of course they got that from

2026
01:41:42,640 --> 01:41:45,560
Tywin. 
Despite this love everyone had 

2027
01:41:45,560 --> 01:41:48,120
for Damon, it's generally a 
positive thing to love somebody.

2028
01:41:48,120 --> 01:41:51,600
Love is generally a positive 
emotion, but it sometimes it can

2029
01:41:51,720 --> 01:41:54,120
lead you to do things that are 
wrong or unfortunate. 

2030
01:41:54,560 --> 01:41:58,520
So discussion here on the 
thoughts of black fire 

2031
01:41:58,520 --> 01:42:00,960
supporters and their 
unattractive themes that I see 

2032
01:42:00,960 --> 01:42:03,080
here. 
Ambition is not a good reason to

2033
01:42:03,080 --> 01:42:06,520
challenge the throne. 
Racism of the Dornish, not a 

2034
01:42:06,520 --> 01:42:09,400
good reason to challenge the 
throne, not a good reason to to 

2035
01:42:09,400 --> 01:42:12,880
over to usurp the throne. 
Disliking peace, Horrible reason

2036
01:42:12,880 --> 01:42:14,720
to overthrow the king in my 
opinion. 

2037
01:42:15,200 --> 01:42:17,560
So they didn't have justice or 
law on their side, isn't that? 

2038
01:42:17,560 --> 01:42:20,760
Do you agree with that, Stephen?
Well, I mean, I think the the 

2039
01:42:20,880 --> 01:42:23,960
the way I look at it is more 
it's a sense of grievances 

2040
01:42:23,960 --> 01:42:29,440
boiling over that, you know, if 
you look at the arguably boiling

2041
01:42:29,440 --> 01:42:31,920
over for the better part of 300 
years, you know, that the 

2042
01:42:31,920 --> 01:42:35,960
Targaryens had come in and 
completely rearranged a 

2043
01:42:35,960 --> 01:42:38,400
political order that had existed
for thousands. 

2044
01:42:39,640 --> 01:42:43,320
And that leads to a lot of 
discontent now. 

2045
01:42:43,400 --> 01:42:47,880
I mean, in terms of, you know, 
justice injustice, Well, think 

2046
01:42:47,880 --> 01:42:52,400
about Sir Eustis Osgre, right? 
To him, losing Cold Moat was an 

2047
01:42:52,400 --> 01:42:56,400
injustice, right? 
Losing the title of, you know, 

2048
01:42:56,400 --> 01:42:58,680
Warden of the North March wasn't
injustice. 

2049
01:42:59,280 --> 01:43:01,600
That's the kind of thing that 
we're talking about because 

2050
01:43:01,600 --> 01:43:04,200
we're we're dealing with a 
feudal political structure. 

2051
01:43:04,560 --> 01:43:08,720
Ultimately, you know, questions 
of justice come down to these 

2052
01:43:08,720 --> 01:43:12,480
very personal, you know, 
material concerns. 

2053
01:43:12,480 --> 01:43:16,160
They're who's got what castle 
with what belongs to whom, 

2054
01:43:16,440 --> 01:43:18,520
because everything belongs to 
someone. 

2055
01:43:18,520 --> 01:43:22,480
You can't give someone anything 
without taking it away from 

2056
01:43:22,480 --> 01:43:25,800
someone 1st and that creates 
sets of winners and losers. 

2057
01:43:25,800 --> 01:43:29,120
So you know all of those, you 
know, scummy, you know, 

2058
01:43:29,120 --> 01:43:33,320
ambitious types who had who had 
profited from Hagon the fourth, 

2059
01:43:33,320 --> 01:43:37,640
Well, their kids are not going 
to say, well, my dad was scummy,

2060
01:43:37,640 --> 01:43:40,640
ergo I don't deserve to have. 
Yeah, they're going to double 

2061
01:43:40,640 --> 01:43:44,160
down, Yeah. 
My inheritance, They're going to

2062
01:43:44,160 --> 01:43:45,880
say, hell no. 
Yeah. 

2063
01:43:45,880 --> 01:43:48,400
They're going to say, you know, 
by all the laws of Westeros, 

2064
01:43:48,840 --> 01:43:53,160
that's my castle. 
I'm going to take it back, you 

2065
01:43:53,160 --> 01:43:54,640
know. 
And if you look, you know, 

2066
01:43:54,640 --> 01:43:59,040
throughout the history of the 
Middle Ages, you know, all of 

2067
01:43:59,040 --> 01:44:03,120
these lordly rebellions, they're
all driven by this deep sense of

2068
01:44:03,120 --> 01:44:05,680
grievance over those kind of 
local issues. 

2069
01:44:05,800 --> 01:44:09,400
And especially given that, you 
know, as we'll talk about during

2070
01:44:09,400 --> 01:44:12,280
the Red Grass episode, that a 
lot of his supporters for these 

2071
01:44:12,280 --> 01:44:17,160
second best houses who were in 
some ways reacting to the the 

2072
01:44:17,160 --> 01:44:20,760
very existence of the Lord 
Paramountcy system and sort of 

2073
01:44:20,760 --> 01:44:23,840
saying, why is it them and not 
me? 

2074
01:44:23,840 --> 01:44:25,880
You know, is that a question of 
justice? 

2075
01:44:25,880 --> 01:44:30,720
I mean, are the Lannisters being
in charge more just than the the

2076
01:44:30,720 --> 01:44:33,760
reigns or, you know, the 
Casterlys for that matter? 

2077
01:44:33,760 --> 01:44:37,680
You know, the Tyrells didn't 
gain power particularly in a 

2078
01:44:37,680 --> 01:44:40,840
just fashion. 
And that builds up resentment 

2079
01:44:40,840 --> 01:44:43,840
from the Oak Hearts and the 
Hightowers and everyone else. 

2080
01:44:44,080 --> 01:44:46,520
So I think it's, I think it's 
very complicated. 

2081
01:44:46,520 --> 01:44:49,840
I think in in some 
circumstances, you know, justice

2082
01:44:49,840 --> 01:44:52,280
is in the eye of the beholder. 
That's true. 

2083
01:44:52,280 --> 01:44:54,200
You're that's a great point. 
That's a very great point and 

2084
01:44:54,200 --> 01:44:56,880
it's it's all about it. 
And it goes to show that what 

2085
01:44:56,880 --> 01:44:59,240
Damon's supporters believed and 
what Darren's supporters 

2086
01:44:59,240 --> 01:45:01,240
believed about Damon's 
supporters were very different. 

2087
01:45:01,240 --> 01:45:03,080
There are the Damon supporters 
thought they were doing 

2088
01:45:03,080 --> 01:45:06,560
something just Deron supporters 
are like, look at these assholes

2089
01:45:06,560 --> 01:45:10,320
just going after and purely 
motivated by ambition and this 

2090
01:45:10,320 --> 01:45:11,960
hero worship. 
And they they probably just were

2091
01:45:11,960 --> 01:45:15,560
disgusted by the whole thing. 
And we can see that point of 

2092
01:45:15,560 --> 01:45:18,920
view or at least competing point
of view from what Sir used to 

2093
01:45:18,920 --> 01:45:23,280
said from Egg's response in that
conversation where he quotes his

2094
01:45:23,280 --> 01:45:26,000
own father Makar. 
My father says that was because 

2095
01:45:26,000 --> 01:45:29,120
Damon was a swordsman and Deron 
never was, said Egg. 

2096
01:45:29,240 --> 01:45:31,320
Why give a horse to a man who 
cannot ride? 

2097
01:45:31,480 --> 01:45:33,200
The sword was not the Kingdom, 
he says. 

2098
01:45:33,800 --> 01:45:36,320
We get the sense that this is 
also how a lot of people felt, 

2099
01:45:36,320 --> 01:45:38,600
just how a lot of people agreed 
with Sir Eustis. 

2100
01:45:38,600 --> 01:45:41,680
A lot of people are going to 
agree with Makar Slash Egg here.

2101
01:45:41,960 --> 01:45:44,320
Why did this sword become such a
big deal all of a sudden? 

2102
01:45:44,320 --> 01:45:47,920
You act like it's important that
Aegon gave it to Damon, but we 

2103
01:45:47,920 --> 01:45:50,080
say the opposite. 
The fact that he gave it away to

2104
01:45:50,080 --> 01:45:52,480
a bastard while never setting 
aside Darren in the line of 

2105
01:45:52,480 --> 01:45:55,960
succession argues that the sword
is not that important. 

2106
01:45:55,960 --> 01:45:58,800
This is the same guy that gave 
dragon eggs away for sex. 

2107
01:45:58,800 --> 01:46:03,440
You can't possibly tell me this 
is meaningful, but Damon's 

2108
01:46:03,440 --> 01:46:06,600
supporters thoroughly disagreed 
with that line of thinking, so 

2109
01:46:06,960 --> 01:46:08,840
that's why it came down to 
fighting, I suppose. 

2110
01:46:10,320 --> 01:46:14,760
So, regardless of the truth or 
justice of his cause or lack 

2111
01:46:14,760 --> 01:46:17,040
thereof, didn't stop Damon's 
adherence. 

2112
01:46:17,040 --> 01:46:21,720
When King Damon, the first Black
Fire was crowned in 196, he had 

2113
01:46:21,720 --> 01:46:26,400
many supporters. 
In this manner did the first 

2114
01:46:26,520 --> 01:46:30,720
Blackfyre Rebellion begin in the
year 196 AC, reversing the 

2115
01:46:30,720 --> 01:46:33,240
colors of the traditional 
Targaryen arms to show a black 

2116
01:46:33,240 --> 01:46:36,240
dragon on a red field. 
The rebels declared for Princess

2117
01:46:36,240 --> 01:46:39,680
Dana's bastard son Damon 
Blackfyre, first of his name, 

2118
01:46:39,920 --> 01:46:43,320
proclaiming him the eldest true 
son of King Agon the 4th and his

2119
01:46:43,400 --> 01:46:47,360
half brother Darren the bastard.
Calling Darren a bastard was 

2120
01:46:47,360 --> 01:46:50,600
necessary, and so it's not to be
seen as pure Ursupation. 

2121
01:46:50,680 --> 01:46:54,240
But of course, we know that 
Darren's supporters knew that 

2122
01:46:54,240 --> 01:46:56,440
for what? 
It was propaganda, and Damon's 

2123
01:46:56,440 --> 01:46:59,560
supporters believed it. 
Well, most of them probably did.

2124
01:46:59,560 --> 01:47:02,120
The ambitious ones were just, 
yeah, this is going to get me 

2125
01:47:02,120 --> 01:47:05,520
what I want. 
Now, that also might explain 

2126
01:47:05,520 --> 01:47:07,680
some of the harshness that comes
after the war. 

2127
01:47:07,680 --> 01:47:10,000
And they're like, well, you 
jerks, look at what you did to 

2128
01:47:10,000 --> 01:47:12,600
the realm. 
You tore everything apart for 

2129
01:47:12,600 --> 01:47:14,640
this man's vanity, for your own 
ambition. 

2130
01:47:15,600 --> 01:47:16,880
Certainly Blood Raven felt that 
way. 

2131
01:47:16,880 --> 01:47:21,320
Some of the others wanted the 
penalties imposed on these folks

2132
01:47:21,320 --> 01:47:24,080
to be a little mild, but that's 
something to discuss later. 

2133
01:47:24,600 --> 01:47:27,040
Now that conversation between 
Egg and Sir Eustace comes from 

2134
01:47:27,040 --> 01:47:30,240
The Sworn Sword, I particularly 
enjoy the audio book version of 

2135
01:47:30,240 --> 01:47:33,880
this one as the reader, Graham 
Malcolm, not Reuter Trice, does 

2136
01:47:33,880 --> 01:47:37,280
a great job with Sir Eustace's 
voice when he speaks of Damon. 

2137
01:47:37,280 --> 01:47:39,680
You can feel the change in his 
voice as he laments what could 

2138
01:47:39,680 --> 01:47:43,040
have been for himself, his sons,
and his beloved King Damon. 

2139
01:47:43,560 --> 01:47:46,120
Go to historyofwesteros.com 
Click on the link to the right 

2140
01:47:46,120 --> 01:47:49,240
to get a free 30 day audible.com
audiobook trial. 

2141
01:47:49,400 --> 01:47:52,080
It comes with one free download 
that you get to keep even if you

2142
01:47:52,080 --> 01:47:54,800
don't keep your subscription. 
The Swarm Sword makes an 

2143
01:47:54,800 --> 01:47:57,760
excellent choice. 
It's small, it's short, it's not

2144
01:47:57,760 --> 01:48:00,200
a big investment of time. 
It's a great way to see if you 

2145
01:48:00,200 --> 01:48:04,560
like the audiobook experience 
and it's got the most 

2146
01:48:04,560 --> 01:48:07,080
information on the Blackfyre 
rebellions of all the sources, 

2147
01:48:07,080 --> 01:48:09,760
save perhaps the World of Ice 
and Fire, which is also 

2148
01:48:09,760 --> 01:48:12,560
available on Audible as an audio
download. 

2149
01:48:12,840 --> 01:48:14,600
It's also a great choice for 
that one free download. 

2150
01:48:14,600 --> 01:48:17,760
So again, history of 
westeros.com Audible trial link 

2151
01:48:17,760 --> 01:48:21,040
on the right to get started. 
OK, we're going to close out 

2152
01:48:21,040 --> 01:48:22,720
this episode. 
We had a few other things 

2153
01:48:22,720 --> 01:48:26,000
planned for it, but we plan to 
be flexible. 

2154
01:48:26,160 --> 01:48:30,120
So this last part, which is the 
legacy of Damon Blackfyre, we're

2155
01:48:30,120 --> 01:48:33,200
going to save that for after the
red grass field action. 

2156
01:48:33,200 --> 01:48:35,840
It will be in the red grass 
field episode, to be clear, But 

2157
01:48:35,840 --> 01:48:39,560
after the action is done, a good
spot for it. 

2158
01:48:41,360 --> 01:48:44,200
I want to thank Steven for being
our guest today. 

2159
01:48:44,200 --> 01:48:46,760
Really excellent discussion. 
Steven, thanks again. 

2160
01:48:47,160 --> 01:48:49,600
My pleasure. 
Tell everybody where to find you

2161
01:48:49,600 --> 01:48:51,360
again. 
You can find me at 

2162
01:48:51,360 --> 01:48:54,240
racefortheironthrone.wordpress.com.
Awesome. 

2163
01:48:54,240 --> 01:48:57,560
And of course, they'll find you 
again here for the Red Grass 

2164
01:48:57,560 --> 01:48:59,560
Field episode, which we're 
really looking forward to. 

2165
01:49:00,280 --> 01:49:03,480
Thanks also to Jesse Koal for 
the cover of our excellent theme

2166
01:49:03,480 --> 01:49:06,200
song originally by Joey 
Townsend. 

2167
01:49:06,800 --> 01:49:09,680
Jesse, you did a great job. 
Really happy to include this. 

2168
01:49:09,840 --> 01:49:12,800
It's always awesome to include 
things from the fandom, from our

2169
01:49:12,800 --> 01:49:15,480
own fans, as well as the Song of
Ice and Fire fandom in our show.

2170
01:49:15,720 --> 01:49:18,200
Really appreciative of that so 
that we could put this up here 

2171
01:49:18,200 --> 01:49:19,880
for you. 
So we need to go through our 

2172
01:49:19,880 --> 01:49:21,760
supporters here at Patreon 
Credits. 

2173
01:49:21,760 --> 01:49:25,840
Our first Lord and Hand of the 
King is Cash Craig, Lord of 

2174
01:49:25,840 --> 01:49:28,680
Minds. 
We have Lord Jim the Fortuitous 

2175
01:49:28,680 --> 01:49:31,320
of Wars and politics, of ice and
fire, Blood and Ward of the 

2176
01:49:31,320 --> 01:49:34,240
West, who you'll be seen next 
episode. 

2177
01:49:34,720 --> 01:49:37,320
Lord George Stormsville, the 
Cunning, Lord of the Chiliad and

2178
01:49:37,320 --> 01:49:39,840
Warden of the East. 
Lord John Reed of Castle 

2179
01:49:39,840 --> 01:49:42,200
Woodbridge, the Lord Borealis, 
the Light of the North and 

2180
01:49:42,200 --> 01:49:44,960
Warden of the North Frontier, 
Lord James Noakes. 

2181
01:49:45,440 --> 01:49:48,280
James Knox, excuse me, of the 
poker 4 Hammer of the Dornis 

2182
01:49:48,280 --> 01:49:52,000
session and Warden of the South.
Our small council is Lord James,

2183
01:49:52,000 --> 01:49:55,960
the scholar, senior counselor 
and master of Whispers 

2184
01:49:56,120 --> 01:49:57,960
extraordinaire. 
But I'm trying to come up with 

2185
01:49:57,960 --> 01:50:00,680
another nickname for you. 
I like to expand these nicknames

2186
01:50:00,680 --> 01:50:01,960
sometimes because it's just so 
much fun. 

2187
01:50:02,320 --> 01:50:05,080
Grand Maester Itai wears the 
jewel crown of many medals. 

2188
01:50:05,320 --> 01:50:07,480
Lord Robert Jacobs is our master
of coin. 

2189
01:50:07,840 --> 01:50:09,680
Rosie the Clever, Master of 
laws. 

2190
01:50:10,000 --> 01:50:13,720
Lord James Tuttle is our master 
of ships, Lady Dyer Liz of 

2191
01:50:13,720 --> 01:50:17,160
Castle Naki is our alpha patron,
Lord Dan of the Red Mountains 

2192
01:50:17,160 --> 01:50:19,680
and Castle Great Bell is breaker
of the second stone. 

2193
01:50:19,960 --> 01:50:22,880
High Chieftain Drew of the Frost
Fangs is Lord of the Claymore, 

2194
01:50:23,240 --> 01:50:26,880
Lord Skip of the Vet, Lord of 
Castle Ganges, Kabeth the 

2195
01:50:26,880 --> 01:50:30,600
Unfrozen, Lord of the bricks and
Castle Crimson Light, Mary Meg, 

2196
01:50:30,600 --> 01:50:34,080
Lady of the Bloody Step Stones, 
Lord Acerus of Dragon Mod 

2197
01:50:34,080 --> 01:50:37,520
Serpent in the Narrow Sea, Lord 
Damien San the Resilient, 

2198
01:50:37,520 --> 01:50:41,240
wielder of the Valyrian steel 
spear Swan Song, and Gregor the 

2199
01:50:41,240 --> 01:50:46,880
Toasty, Lord of the Bread Fort, 
who played this game hanging on 

2200
01:50:46,880 --> 01:50:49,400
our wall. 
This is a nine player Game of 

2201
01:50:49,400 --> 01:50:52,360
Thrones board game modified by 
some online. 

2202
01:50:52,360 --> 01:50:54,320
This game is not available 
anywhere, you can only download 

2203
01:50:54,320 --> 01:50:55,520
it. 
It's a modification to the 

2204
01:50:55,520 --> 01:50:58,120
standard 6 player game and 
Gregor the Toast. 

2205
01:50:58,120 --> 01:51:00,960
He came to play the game with us
at Dragon Con a few weeks ago. 

2206
01:51:01,160 --> 01:51:03,880
Great time. 
The winner was House Lannister, 

2207
01:51:04,000 --> 01:51:07,200
which was not me or a Shaya or 
Greg, so on. 

2208
01:51:07,240 --> 01:51:11,000
We were defeated. 
I was House Aaron, I was close 

2209
01:51:11,000 --> 01:51:13,840
but couldn't pull it off. 
Also, listener Marshall Shane 

2210
01:51:13,840 --> 01:51:15,160
Black played the board game with
us. 

2211
01:51:15,160 --> 01:51:17,600
We met him at Dragon Con. 
Kind of a funny story. 

2212
01:51:18,240 --> 01:51:21,160
As we were setting up the game 
and explaining the rules, it 

2213
01:51:21,160 --> 01:51:22,840
dawned on him that he knew our 
voices. 

2214
01:51:23,840 --> 01:51:26,280
He only, of course he listened 
to us on audio, not on YouTube, 

2215
01:51:26,280 --> 01:51:28,120
so he didn't recognize it first.
And he's like, wait, you guys 

2216
01:51:28,120 --> 01:51:31,160
have familiar names and sounds? 
Sure enough, turned out to be a 

2217
01:51:31,200 --> 01:51:33,120
listener. 
Always fun to meet people out in

2218
01:51:33,120 --> 01:51:35,320
the world like that. 
Thanks for being with us. 

2219
01:51:35,320 --> 01:51:40,280
Shame. 
Lord Commander Shepard is our 

2220
01:51:40,280 --> 01:51:43,400
history of Westeros. 
Lord's commander of the 

2221
01:51:43,920 --> 01:51:46,120
Kingsguard. 
Lord Commander George the Golden

2222
01:51:46,120 --> 01:51:47,280
commands the history of 
Westeros. 

2223
01:51:47,280 --> 01:51:49,600
Night's Watch. 
Our King's Justice is Sir Troy 

2224
01:51:49,600 --> 01:51:52,280
the Steady wielder of the 
Valyrian steel blade. 

2225
01:51:52,280 --> 01:51:54,680
Fate. 
Now remember folks, Patreon has 

2226
01:51:54,680 --> 01:51:56,720
a messaging system. 
Some of you guys signed up to 

2227
01:51:56,720 --> 01:51:59,520
pledge to us and we responded to
you trying to get some of your 

2228
01:51:59,520 --> 01:52:02,160
information, thanking you. 
And we didn't get responses 

2229
01:52:02,160 --> 01:52:03,480
back. 
And a couple people have told us

2230
01:52:03,760 --> 01:52:06,680
months later that they didn't 
realize Patreon had a messaging 

2231
01:52:06,680 --> 01:52:08,080
system. 
And they say, oh, I didn't see 

2232
01:52:08,080 --> 01:52:11,240
this e-mail from you. 
So I assume that there's a few 

2233
01:52:11,240 --> 01:52:13,080
more of you out there that 
didn't know that you sent, that 

2234
01:52:13,080 --> 01:52:15,280
we responded to you. 
And hopefully you didn't feel 

2235
01:52:15,280 --> 01:52:17,240
like we just left you hanging. 
We didn't. 

2236
01:52:17,840 --> 01:52:21,920
So thanks also to queen of the 
timeline, Rainey's Targaryen. 

2237
01:52:21,920 --> 01:52:24,880
She corrected me on several 
dates by about a year. 

2238
01:52:24,880 --> 01:52:27,200
I was about a year off on a 
couple people's ages. 

2239
01:52:28,000 --> 01:52:30,280
Really excellent to have those 
things tightened up. 

2240
01:52:30,720 --> 01:52:33,680
She also posed some other 
interesting questions that aided

2241
01:52:33,680 --> 01:52:35,520
to our discussions in this 
episode. 

2242
01:52:36,120 --> 01:52:39,840
And of course, thanks to Ashaya 
for being working behind the 

2243
01:52:39,840 --> 01:52:41,080
scenes. 
She couldn't be in this episode,

2244
01:52:41,080 --> 01:52:43,200
which was disappointing to 
myself and some others. 

2245
01:52:43,200 --> 01:52:47,120
But you know, life, life is life
and things happen. 

2246
01:52:47,120 --> 01:52:52,240
So she'll be back very soon now.
Also, thanks again to Steven and

2247
01:52:52,240 --> 01:52:55,600
to everyone for listening. 
So we'll see you all next time, 

2248
01:52:55,600 --> 01:52:57,520
folks. 
I want to close out with 

2249
01:52:57,520 --> 01:53:00,360
something kind of unusual and 
interesting. 

2250
01:53:00,360 --> 01:53:02,120
You. 
Some of you have heard me 

2251
01:53:02,120 --> 01:53:05,240
advertise DraftKings through the
site before. 

2252
01:53:05,560 --> 01:53:08,920
And sports some people. 
Some of a Song of Ice and Fire 

2253
01:53:08,920 --> 01:53:10,400
fan who does not give a crap 
about sports. 

2254
01:53:10,400 --> 01:53:12,560
And I get that. 
This is something different. 

2255
01:53:12,840 --> 01:53:18,040
Now DraftKings is doing League 
of Legends drafting. 

2256
01:53:18,800 --> 01:53:20,960
Whoa. 
They're getting into E gaming. 

2257
01:53:20,960 --> 01:53:23,040
This is just the start. 
They're going to do other games.

2258
01:53:23,040 --> 01:53:23,880
They're going to be allowing 
you. 

2259
01:53:23,960 --> 01:53:25,240
Tell me when they do 
Hearthstone. 

2260
01:53:25,240 --> 01:53:26,840
Yeah, I imagine Hearthstone is 
coming. 

2261
01:53:26,960 --> 01:53:28,760
So that's pretty cool. 
That's and it's also a lot more 

2262
01:53:28,760 --> 01:53:32,160
relevant to the Song of Ice and 
Fire fandom, where sports is not

2263
01:53:32,160 --> 01:53:34,680
such a great connector. 
But but if you're interested in 

2264
01:53:34,680 --> 01:53:36,800
drafting from a sports 
perspective, because I can't 

2265
01:53:36,800 --> 01:53:38,680
explain how the League of 
Lessons drafting works, it was 

2266
01:53:38,680 --> 01:53:41,840
literally announced today that 
it's going live, so I couldn't 

2267
01:53:41,840 --> 01:53:44,240
tell you a thing about it. 
I will report back for a future 

2268
01:53:44,240 --> 01:53:46,840
ad as to what what the deal is. 
I think it's going to be pretty 

2269
01:53:46,840 --> 01:53:48,880
cool. 
It's a fun idea. 

2270
01:53:49,160 --> 01:53:50,560
Something outside of sports for 
sure. 

2271
01:53:50,560 --> 01:53:54,040
I, I, I'm OK, I like baseball, I
like football, but I prefer 

2272
01:53:54,320 --> 01:53:56,160
games. 
I prefer fantasy games 

2273
01:53:56,160 --> 01:53:57,840
particularly. 
So this is very exciting to me. 

2274
01:53:58,120 --> 01:54:02,520
But if you do like sports, 
DraftKings has literally has 

2275
01:54:02,520 --> 01:54:06,760
first places in their NFL prizes
of 1 to $2,000,000. 

2276
01:54:06,760 --> 01:54:09,800
I know someone personally that 
won $2,000,000 on DraftKings or 

2277
01:54:09,800 --> 01:54:11,680
$1 million on DraftKings last 
year. 

2278
01:54:11,920 --> 01:54:14,440
Holy crap, that was kind of life
changing money for him. 

2279
01:54:15,080 --> 01:54:17,320
Yeah. 
Anyway, you can sign up for 

2280
01:54:17,320 --> 01:54:20,560
DraftKings through History of 
Westeros bottom right corner 

2281
01:54:20,560 --> 01:54:23,920
DraftKings link. 
If you sign up and deposit, you 

2282
01:54:23,920 --> 01:54:28,280
will get a free $20 ticket to 
enter a tournament of any kind, 

2283
01:54:28,440 --> 01:54:31,320
including those NFL tournaments 
which have these 1 1/2 to 

2284
01:54:31,320 --> 01:54:34,840
$2,000,000 first prizes. 
Fun stuff, even if you're not a 

2285
01:54:34,840 --> 01:54:37,000
big football fan. 
It's it's the idea of being able

2286
01:54:37,040 --> 01:54:39,480
to win $2,000,000 off of a $20 
entry fee. 

2287
01:54:39,480 --> 01:54:42,320
It's kind of crazy. 
So check that out if you're 

2288
01:54:42,320 --> 01:54:45,960
interested and we will see you 
all next time. 

2289
01:54:45,960 --> 01:54:48,000
Thanks for tuning into History 
of Westeros. 

2290
01:54:48,600 --> 01:54:51,720
Thanks again, Steven Valar 
Morgulis.