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In one 5322 years after the 
Dance of the Dragons, the last 

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dragon known in Westeros died. 
Though she laid a clutch of 

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eggs, the dragon had never 
thrived. 

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Curiously, neither had any of 
the Dragons hatched after the 

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Dance. 
There were still adult Dragons 

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in Westeros born before the 
Dance that survived. 

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Not many, but some. 
And they were strong and 

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powerful in at least a few 
cases. 

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But by 1:53 they were gone as 
well. 

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So how did this come to be? 
That's not a very long time, 

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right? 
Were there those who dreamt of a

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dragonless Westeros, and of 
those for whom the answer was 

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yes, did they do anything about 
it? 

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I'm sure plenty of people just 
had that thought, but we're 

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talking about people who put it 
into action. 

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Or did it happen for reasons 
outside of human control? 

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Were there supernatural factors 
beyond comprehension that maybe 

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we can just touch on a little 
bit, or at least extrapolate? 

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Or was it a combination of 
things? 

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And if so, which things the 
maestros are commonly suspected?

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And to be clear my friends, this
is not a theory that originated 

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with. 
Well, I would say it didn't 

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entirely originate with fans. 
It did entirely originate with 

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fans at first. 
There were plenty of fans who 

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suspected the maestros of 
killing the Dragons before 

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Marwin the Mage expressed that 
belief on Paige. 

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Because Marwin the Mage did that
at the end of A Feast for Crows.

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And y'all are well aware that 
there were three books before 

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that one. 
So it's a conspiracy theory, but

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it's a conspiracy theory 
believed by characters in the 

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story and by parts of the 
fandom. 

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So that's, well, that puts it in
a different category. 

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We have a smart fandom, y'all. 
That's something that I'd like 

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to throw out there. 
You know, people figuring things

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out before they're spelled out 
more. 

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I like that. 
But the maesters are not the 

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only ones with motive here. 
There's flaws with Marwin's 

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theory, and there's other 
factors that he didn't consider,

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which, well, that's part of the 
flaws with his theories, but 

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that doesn't eliminate his idea,
so we have to include them for 

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sure. 
Is the end motive of getting rid

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of Dragons if that's what 
happened to get rid of magic or 

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to reduce it? 
If that's a question that needs 

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to be addressed here too, 
because do Dragons actually 

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bring magic, or does the magic 
bring Dragons? 

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The question will take on today 
is if killing Dragons kills 

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magic. 
Well, where did that idea come 

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from in the 1st place? 
The world had Dragons in it for 

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thousands of years before it 
suddenly didn't. 

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So where did the idea that 
getting rid of them would have 

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an effect like that? 
Who could have experienced that 

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00:03:24,920 --> 00:03:26,320
prior to it happening? 
Right? 

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00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:28,080
That's a bit of a conundrum, 
isn't it? 

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00:03:28,640 --> 00:03:31,560
So we have questions. 
It's a three-way cultural battle

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that's tangible in Westeros that
we're going to get into as well.

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Because magic is real. 
The realm of science is not 

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happy with it. 
They're antagonistic towards it,

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at least as far as what we've 
been told. 

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And there's Dragons and magic, 
which it's his own realm, but 

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also there's the realm of faith 
that right, the seven aren't big

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fans of the Dragons. 
The the high Septon, maybe not a

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big fan, whichever high Septon 
you're talking about, they were 

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the big power in Westeros before
the Dragons. 

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So they stand to gain something 
by them being gone. 

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And of course, with all that, we
have all this wrapped into a 

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00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:08,160
nice whodunit package because if
it wasn't the maesters, who was 

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it and why did they do it and 
how? 

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We need motive and we need 
method. 

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So we got a lot of stuff going 
on. 

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The supernatural forces behind 
all Planetos, Dragons, mages, 

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perhaps the biggest whodunit 
case in Westeros history. 

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All that more on this episode of
History of Westeros podcast. 

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Hello and welcome back 
everybody. 

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We are streaming live as we so 
often do here, Monday at 3:00 

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Eastern. 
That is when our regular live 

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streams happen. 
If there is ATV show in season, 

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we modify that to Mondays at 
six. 

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You can always catch the episode
afterwards though, and 

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regardless of when and where we 
recorded. 

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You can find it on YouTube in 
the unedited version, unless 

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it's a scripted episode, in 
which case, hey, that's edited 

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ahead of time and all of our 
live streams get edited and put 

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up on Spotify and every podcast 
platform where you can find 

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00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:05,480
podcasts, every podcast 
platform, right? 

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00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:07,920
That's how that works. 
So and if it's ad free, you can 

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00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:09,880
listen to it on Patreon. 
That's where you get that. 

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00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:12,960
So thanks to those of you all 
supporting us and sharing the 

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00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:14,800
word and all that. 
Let's get to it. 

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Also a thank you to Good Queen 
Alley Nina. 

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She was on vacation this week, 
so no new blog post over on 

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goodqueenalley.tumblr.com, but 
there's so much good stuff on 

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there, even if you've read them 
all. 

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May be time to do some 
rereading. 

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00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:31,680
Valar reread good 
queenalley.tumblr.com. 

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If you have questions for 
us.westeroshistory@gmail.com is 

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00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:39,560
probably the simplest way to get
in touch, but you can also 

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00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:43,040
e-mail us on Patreon, even just 
by being a free member. 

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You don't have to be a paid 
member to to contact us there or

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on any social media platform. 
We're pretty much everywhere. 

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Here's a trivia question to get 
us started. 

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How many eggs did the last 
dragon lay? 

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Interesting question, huh? 
The answer is revealed in this. 

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It'll get dropped if you're 
paying close attention. 

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Maybe you already know and the 
answer could be it could be a 

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trick question, right? 
It might be none. 

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It could be so. 
Now, those of you who are 

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patrons might be familiar with 
our Parallel Lives trivia and 

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00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:17,840
exploration of parallel 
characters within A Song of Ice 

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and Fire, whether they're in the
same timeline or separated by 

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hundreds or thousands of years. 
Something we did a lot of 

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between 19/18/2018 and 2022. 
Yeah, we've been doing these 

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since before George R Martin was
born, y'all, and they're a lot 

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of fun. 
They were all on Twitter and I 

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don't really use Twitter anymore
for reasons I think you probably

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00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:40,240
all understand. 
So we're going to be recycling 

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some of them and putting them on
Patreon and making some new ones

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in the meantime. 
So if y'all, a lot of y'all 

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don't know what I'm talking 
about, so just stay tuned and 

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you'll see they're pretty fun 
little trivia comparisons. 

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If those of y'all those of y'all
who are familiar, well, you know

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what you're getting into and 
it'll be fun to bring back that 

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fun weekly thing. 
To be clear, Patreon has rolled 

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out something called Quips which
is in the mobile app and anyone 

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00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:06,000
could see, not just people who 
support your Patreon. 

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00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:09,920
So they will be posted as quips.
Very quippy. 

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You're very quippy. 
Yeah. 

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It's kind of like a timeline 
type of thing, I guess, like a a

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news feed. 
A news feed. 

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Yeah, it's a lot like that. 
Yeah. 

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So they're trying to move into 
that direct, which makes sense. 

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I don't I often find myself a 
little disconnected from the 

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people I'm supporting on 
Patreon, so having a a few more 

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ways for connectivity makes some
sense. 

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But anyway, let's get to the 
topic at hand, The last dragon. 

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It's kind of, you know, we 
almost call this one the last 

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Dragons because, well, it's 
we're looking up at that, 

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looking at them as a whole. 
However, the final one does have

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extra weight on it because, 
well, just think about this 

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Senator where we I've raised 
this topic is very supernatural 

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and you know, whodunit murder 
mystery kind of thing. 

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00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:52,000
But it's also very political 
because I mean, think about 

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being in Westeros as the last 
dragon is dying. 

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I mean, what a weird thing to be
living through The Targaryen's 

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00:07:56,560 --> 00:07:59,320
like everything's fine. 
It's that meme where the dog is 

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00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:03,080
staring forward with the stupid 
grin on his face and the house 

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00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:05,200
is on fire. 
That's a good metaphor because 

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00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:07,720
of the fire especially. 
But what are they like? 

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00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:09,400
What are they supposed to say to
everybody? 

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Like, yeah, it's fine, the 
Dragons are dying off. 

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00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:12,520
What? 
Who cares, right? 

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00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:15,400
We're fine, not a problem. 
We can we only have them for 

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00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:16,640
thousands of years and now we 
don't. 

153
00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:20,480
Big deal, right? 
So yeah, it is it it, it creates

154
00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:24,040
this feeling not just in King's 
Landing, although it would be 

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stronger there, I suppose, but 
everywhere in West was like, 

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what's going to happen now? 
What's going to happen? 

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Is this going to change things? 
Like things have been the same 

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for a long time. 
I mean, are we going back to pre

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00:08:32,039 --> 00:08:33,880
Aegon? 
Is the Kingdom going to collapse

160
00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:36,919
in the Seven Kingdoms again? 
So that would be a lot of 

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00:08:36,919 --> 00:08:39,360
thoughts and it wouldn't be 
positive, a lot of fear. 

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00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:41,640
So that is a big part of this as
well. 

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Right now, the section headers, 
we have the last Dragons, lost 

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dragon lore, the magic or the 
egg? 

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Yes, it's like the chicken or 
the egg. 

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And then we have the dragonless 
dragon Lords, dragonless but not

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eggless, 9 mages, What or who 
done it and how to kill a 

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00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:03,240
dragon, kind of like how to 
train your dragon. 

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00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:07,520
But yeah, you get it. 
So just some basic questions 

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we're going to seek to answer 
here today. 

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Other than the ones I've already
pointed out in the intro, what 

172
00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:13,000
do we know about the last 
Dragons? 

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You know, what physical 
characteristics and other 

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details like that. 
Why were the final Dragons so 

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weak? 
And what like, what was there a 

176
00:09:21,680 --> 00:09:23,480
reason for that? 
Is it just coincidence? 

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Is was there a bunch of factors 
for that? 

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Is there one thing we can point 
to? 

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Did someone kill them off or did
it just kind of happen? 

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And if it was an organization 
that killed them off, who was 

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it? 
Why did they do it and how did 

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they do it? 
So when Daenerys hatched 3 

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Dragons at the end of A Game of 
Thrones, we assume it was still 

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the year 298. 
Maybe it was 299. 

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Regardless, they were the first 
known to us since the year 153. 

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00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:51,400
That's again 22 years after the 
end of the Dance of the Dragons 

187
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and the day, the year rather 
than the last dragon died. 

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Now Danny's Dragons are growing 
quickly. 

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They are an example. 
Now some of that is probably a 

190
00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:02,320
little bit on the meta side 
because George scrapped the five

191
00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:05,320
year gap and that was supposed 
to give the dragon some time to 

192
00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:08,880
grow. 
But even with that in mind the 

193
00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:12,640
last dragon and her siblings or 
sibling got nowhere near the 

194
00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:16,280
size of Danny's. 
So even if you take out the 

195
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George needs them to grow faster
aspect it still doesn't align 

196
00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:24,160
which implies some other factors
were in play. 

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00:10:24,560 --> 00:10:28,000
Now, if you don't like a 
comparison to the miraculous 

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00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:31,280
Dragons born from stone, I get 
it, that might be different. 

199
00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:36,520
But look at the Dragons born a 
generation before these last 

200
00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:38,120
ones. 
Look at two or three generations

201
00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:40,280
before. 
Nothing seemed to go wrong with 

202
00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:43,440
them other than the civil war 
that was started in their name, 

203
00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:46,920
but nothing in untoward with 
their growth patterns or 

204
00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:50,240
anything like that. 
So whatever happened was pretty 

205
00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:52,840
sudden. 
Even taking away Danny's kind of

206
00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:55,320
unusual example that hadn't 
happened by that time. 

207
00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:57,000
It still looks peculiar, doesn't
it? 

208
00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:01,840
The last Dragons, we'll start 
with the Dragons themselves and 

209
00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:04,760
then work into the theories and 
all the other stuff surrounding 

210
00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:06,480
it. 
After that, we'll talk a little 

211
00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:09,800
bit about what life was like 
maybe when they were gone. 

212
00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:12,560
Like now that that once that 
milestone was hit, what did how 

213
00:11:12,560 --> 00:11:14,280
did people react? 
What was next, etcetera. 

214
00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:18,400
Here's a famous and fun quote we
return to every so often. 

215
00:11:18,680 --> 00:11:23,600
It reminds us, as it often does,
along with it informing us of 

216
00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:26,200
other things, whatever we happen
to be looking at it for, in this

217
00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:29,240
case, The Last Dragons. 
It reminds us that George had a 

218
00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:32,200
lot of this planned out ahead of
time, even if certain details 

219
00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:34,320
maybe weren't. 
A lot of this groundwork was 

220
00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:36,240
laid in their first few 
chapters. 

221
00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:39,560
Quote. 
There were 19 skulls. 

222
00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:44,760
The oldest was more than 3000 
years old, the youngest a mere 

223
00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:48,800
century and a half. 
The most recent were also the 

224
00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:53,920
smallest, a matched pair, no 
bigger than Mastiffs skulls and 

225
00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:57,720
oddly misshapen, all that 
remained of the last two 

226
00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:02,120
hatchlings born on Dragonstone. 
They were the last of the 

227
00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:07,080
Targaryen Dragons, perhaps the 
last Dragons anywhere, and they 

228
00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:11,680
had not lived very long. 
Yet one of the two lived long 

229
00:12:11,680 --> 00:12:14,200
enough to bear eggs. 
So there's a little something 

230
00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:19,000
there that's a little odd. 
I mean, animal Kingdom pretty 

231
00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:23,000
widespread. 
You don't generally lay eggs or 

232
00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:25,760
breed or anything like that when
you aren't healthy. 

233
00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:28,480
So that's, you know, maybe a 
little odd, but so this dragon 

234
00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:32,120
maybe was sick, but not fully 
sick or it's it's unusual, 

235
00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:36,120
definitely noteworthy. 
And how many others were born 

236
00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:38,160
after the dance? 
We don't actually know. 

237
00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:40,600
I I thought when we started this
episode, we would have a more 

238
00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:43,320
clear answer, but we don't know.
We know, we know that these last

239
00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:46,200
two hatchlings with these skulls
are mentioned here, but perhaps 

240
00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:49,360
there's another skull that 
Tyrion didn't include that maybe

241
00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:53,480
died five years earlier because 
these last two, he doesn't say 

242
00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:55,800
that in this quote. 
Well, you know, he does. 

243
00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:57,840
He calls him a matched pair. 
They're very similar. 

244
00:12:57,840 --> 00:13:01,280
So that's why maybe he wasn't 
noting the third one that's also

245
00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:04,120
an example, but died 10 years 
before but still after the 

246
00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:05,560
Dance, right. 
That would just kind of belabor 

247
00:13:05,560 --> 00:13:06,840
the point. 
He wouldn't need to get into 

248
00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:08,360
that. 
And Tyrion doesn't necessarily 

249
00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:12,160
even know that level of detail, 
even though Tyrion is, of all 

250
00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:15,440
the Povs, the one who seems to 
know the most about Dragons. 

251
00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:19,640
Now, we know that Prince 
Viserys's egg, for example, it 

252
00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:22,320
was one that did not hatch 
Prince Viserys, meaning the 

253
00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:25,960
Viserys that became Viserys the 
Second, as in Aegon the Third's 

254
00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:27,920
younger brother. 
And of course, Aegon the Third 

255
00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:32,280
was the king during this time 
where the Dragons died out. 

256
00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:34,600
That's part of why he's called 
Aegon the Third, the Dragon 

257
00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:38,320
Bane. 
So if these hatch Dragons, these

258
00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:44,000
two misshapen, oddly matched 
pair, if they were given to 

259
00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:47,400
certain Targaryens, were they 
cradle eggs? 

260
00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:51,440
They probably were. 
Which ones? 

261
00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:52,880
Like we. 
This is an interesting thing 

262
00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:54,400
that we're missing some of this 
detail. 

263
00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:57,880
Whose Dragons they belong to? 
We don't even have the Dragons 

264
00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:00,240
names. 
That's not too strange, 

265
00:14:00,560 --> 00:14:03,520
honestly. 
We didn't have pretty much any 

266
00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:07,640
of the young Dragons names 
during for the Dance until Fire 

267
00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:09,400
and Blood. 
Like a lot of it. 

268
00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:10,760
Well, maybe World of Ice and 
Fire. 

269
00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:12,880
Some of those Dragons didn't 
even have names then, like we 

270
00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:15,760
were a few. 
Basically those were late in the

271
00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:18,480
game names, we'll say. 
So this is kind of the same meta

272
00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:20,440
pattern here. 
The names aren't super 

273
00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:23,240
important, maybe to historians, 
or maybe that's like remembering

274
00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:26,560
the name of a specific ship. 
You know, like the ship that led

275
00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:28,520
to all the other ships. 
You can see why that might 

276
00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:31,120
matter, but you could also see 
why that it's not very important

277
00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:32,240
just to have the name of the 
ship. 

278
00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:35,160
There were left Targaryen 
Dragons that may be marking down

279
00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:38,240
the name of all the smaller ones
didn't seem important. 

280
00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:41,000
Some of them may have had 
temporary names, you know what I

281
00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:43,240
mean? 
Like they give a a working name 

282
00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:46,280
until the dragon rider decides 
what the real name is. 

283
00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:49,280
Let me make take a little while.
Name days are a thing in 

284
00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:50,760
Westeros, right? 
You don't always name things 

285
00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:52,320
right away. 
Maybe that applies to Dragons 

286
00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:54,920
too. 
So out of the four, Elena had 

287
00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:56,920
her egg when she was an 
adolescent, so her egg wasn't 

288
00:14:56,920 --> 00:14:59,600
one of the ones that hatched. 
Viserys has three children. 

289
00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:02,080
We don't. 
Meaning aiming the egg on aiming

290
00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:06,120
the dragonite egg on the 4th and
nares we don't really know. 

291
00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:07,800
I could have been one of their 
three. 

292
00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:12,960
And Baila Targaryen gave her egg
to her daughter Lena, and that 

293
00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:14,320
egg hatch. 
We'll talk about that one later.

294
00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:17,160
That one was a that was a bit of
a horror show. 

295
00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:20,040
And there's also Hightower 
Daughters of Reyna. 

296
00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:22,320
So there's quite a few different
people that could add eggs. 

297
00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:24,120
So we couldn't really narrow it 
down all the way. 

298
00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:27,320
That's basically your list of 
candidates, but it also tells 

299
00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:29,360
you, given that list of 
candidates, there's a lot of 

300
00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:33,080
people that had eggs. 
And so far we only know of these

301
00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:34,840
two or three that actually 
hatched. 

302
00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:36,320
And like I said, one was a 
horror show. 

303
00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:40,920
So that's it's pretty distinct. 
The pattern of Dragons born 

304
00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:43,880
before the dance seem fine, even
one born during the dance 

305
00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:47,000
morning. 
I mean, she never got large and 

306
00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:49,640
older and we don't know how she 
died, but she didn't seem to be 

307
00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:52,320
stunted either. 
There's no description of her in

308
00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:54,520
that state. 
Maybe that came later and we 

309
00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:58,400
never learned that, but as of 
now, there's no word on that. 

310
00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:00,520
So it doesn't seem random, does 
it? 

311
00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:03,000
None of the Dragons born after 
the Dance seem to have been 

312
00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:04,920
healthy. 
All of the ones before it seemed

313
00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:06,800
fine. 
And if there were only two 

314
00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:10,600
hatchlings, why not more? 
So that's a that's a mystery 

315
00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:11,080
too. 
If. 

316
00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:12,680
If it was only the two 
hatchlings. 

317
00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:14,240
So a lot of people have seen 
these calls. 

318
00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:16,400
The ones that Tyrion looked at, 
they used to be prominently 

319
00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:19,680
displayed in the throne room. 
It was Robert who took them down

320
00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:24,360
and moved with the basement. 
So that's historically speaking,

321
00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:27,280
that's only 20 years ago that 
they were put in the basement, 

322
00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:29,760
less than 20 really. 
So a lot of people saw them, a 

323
00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:31,200
lot of people got to wonder 
about them. 

324
00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:35,680
And people probably had thoughts
along Tyrion's lines as to, 

325
00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:38,640
gosh, what was the deal with 
those little ones and dying out 

326
00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:39,760
young. 
What happened there? 

327
00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:45,720
And almost more peculiar, I 
pointed out morning, the pink 

328
00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:49,560
and black dragon that died 
within 23 years of her birth, 

329
00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:53,240
roughly. 
That's a little less mysterious 

330
00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:56,080
than say, Silver Wing. 
Silver Wing flew off after the 

331
00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:58,120
dance to live alone on a Stony 
island. 

332
00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:02,240
The Cannibal. 
We don't know when for sure the 

333
00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:05,560
Cannibal died. 
I don't think it's easy to pin 

334
00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:09,040
the death of either Silver Wing 
or the Cannibal on maesters, 

335
00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:10,599
right? 
Like, that seems far fetched. 

336
00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:14,319
Why would they? 
Well, how would they, right? 

337
00:17:14,319 --> 00:17:18,640
Like are they poisoning dragon 
stuffed Dragons to make the 

338
00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:20,599
cannibal eat that? 
Like, oh, I can go eat that 

339
00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:23,839
hatchling and it's really just a
a plushie and filled with poison

340
00:17:23,839 --> 00:17:28,160
Like I don't right? 
And sheep stealer. 

341
00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:30,240
That's another one. 
I mean that dragon flew off and 

342
00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:33,920
hid in the veil where no one 
lives except the burned man 

343
00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:37,160
apparently. 
So honestly, I think the 

344
00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:40,360
maesters are a little precise 
with a date. 

345
00:17:40,360 --> 00:17:42,840
They shouldn't be. 
And it's a pattern we've seen 

346
00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:45,080
with other supernatural 
creatures. 

347
00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:48,800
For example, world advice would 
fire and people like Maestro 

348
00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:52,200
Lewin and others will say things
like the children of the forest 

349
00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:55,080
have been dead for thousands of 
years. 

350
00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:58,000
They'll say things like the 
giants are extinct. 

351
00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:00,520
They'll say things like skin 
changing. 

352
00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:03,160
If it was a thing, it probably 
was a thing. 

353
00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:06,280
It doesn't happen anymore. 
Those are blatantly wrong, 

354
00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:08,120
right? 
And they're not just wrong by a 

355
00:18:08,120 --> 00:18:09,640
little. 
They're like the children died 

356
00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:13,360
of thousands of years ago. 
That is way wrong, right? 

357
00:18:13,360 --> 00:18:16,040
They're not even gone at all. 
That's let alone thousands of 

358
00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:18,280
years ago. 
There's giants walking around at

359
00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:23,120
the wall right now, and the 
maestros don't know that, so how

360
00:18:23,120 --> 00:18:27,040
are we supposed to be sure that 
they know for a fact? 

361
00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:31,160
Sheep stealer died before 153. 
Now it's a dragon. 

362
00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:34,240
There'd be sightings, but this 
is a very remote area of the 

363
00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:38,400
Veil where this dragon kind of 
lived, kind of unknown for a 

364
00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:41,960
long time, semi unknown before 
she became famous. 

365
00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:44,960
So sinking back into obscurity 
by being out of sight, out of 

366
00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:46,280
mind. 
I can believe that. 

367
00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:49,960
So there we got to keep that in 
mind that this one date at 1:53,

368
00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:52,720
yeah, it might not be 100% 
accurate. 

369
00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:56,040
However, I am willing to believe
that it's close because Yeah, I 

370
00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:59,320
mean no one seems to have 
spotted Silver Wing or the 

371
00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:01,600
Cannibal or Sheep Stealer after 
these dates. 

372
00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:05,040
At least no confirmed sighting, 
no sightings in large numbers. 

373
00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:08,760
So it's probably not off by a 
lot, but the point is the same. 

374
00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:12,760
That's several adult Dragons 
that were also all dead by this 

375
00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:16,320
say the one 50s if we're not 
going to use 153 as a precise 

376
00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:19,200
date. 
I can believe humans killing the

377
00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:22,840
dragon Morning Light. 
I can believe Dragons being 

378
00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:25,120
killed as hatchlings. 
Heck, a 10 year old could kill a

379
00:19:25,120 --> 00:19:27,320
hatchling. 
It doesn't take much to smash an

380
00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:31,840
egg, even a dragon egg. 
But killing Sheep Stealer and 

381
00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:37,480
Silver Wing and that cannibal, 
yeah, I really, really doubt the

382
00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:40,440
maesters did that. 
I kind of doubt humans did that.

383
00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:44,400
So that's a problem for all the 
theorizing here. 

384
00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:49,000
Has to keep that into keep that 
in mind so highly relevant as to

385
00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:52,520
the question of whether the 
death of Dragons actually had an

386
00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:53,680
impact. 
We're going to get into the a 

387
00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:57,160
little bit of the question of 
well, Dragons, magic, magic 

388
00:19:57,160 --> 00:19:59,600
Dragons, what brings what how 
what's the what's the 

389
00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:02,520
association there? 
And here is a quote. 

390
00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:07,320
The last one perished during the
reign of King Egon the Third. 

391
00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:11,040
The Last Dragon in Westeros. 
Insisted Malander. 

392
00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:15,960
The last dragon in Westeros was 
the last dragon, said Armand 

393
00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:18,560
doggedly. 
That is well known. 

394
00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:22,880
No Dothraki present to chorus. 
It is known because that really 

395
00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:25,520
emphasizes the point when you 
got like a someone standing 

396
00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:27,880
behind you to say it is known. 
It's like having a hype man or 

397
00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:33,280
woman you know, but for but for 
facts anyway, Mollander argues 

398
00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:36,320
that the world is too big ash 
eye too distant and mysterious, 

399
00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:38,320
as well as being associated with
Dragons. 

400
00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:40,600
To be sure, he says Old Town is 
not the world. 

401
00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:42,360
And given the point I just made 
about how maesters have been 

402
00:20:42,360 --> 00:20:44,320
wrong about these things, like 
right in front of our eyes 

403
00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:46,400
multiple times, I'm with 
Mollander. 

404
00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:48,960
Even Danny says the same thing 
early in the Game of Thrones. 

405
00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:52,040
She's like, Dragons died in the 
West, but in the east. 

406
00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:54,320
Are we sure about that? 
How can we know that there's no 

407
00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:55,800
Dragons over there? 
And she makes a good point. 

408
00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:57,120
It's like, yeah, how could you 
know? 

409
00:20:57,120 --> 00:20:59,760
You can't, you silly maesters, 
How could you possibly know 

410
00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:01,680
what's over there? 
They're making assumptions. 

411
00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:04,560
So I'm definitely with Mollander
there. 

412
00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:08,880
And Armin counters. 
That's so much of this is just 

413
00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:11,160
stories about Dragons, sailors, 
stories. 

414
00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:15,920
Why can we trust sailors yet 
Armin, whose name is probably 

415
00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:17,400
unintentionally similar to 
Eamon? 

416
00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:21,000
What does Eamon do when he gets 
to Braavos and he hears the 

417
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:25,280
stories of Danny's Dragons? 
He says, hey, Sam, go get more 

418
00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:28,960
sailor stories. 
So sorry, Armin, you're 

419
00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:31,200
outranked on this one. 
There's some merit there. 

420
00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:33,640
Even Eamon thinks there's 
something to do here. 

421
00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:38,200
So yeah, if all the stories have
similar details, you can you can

422
00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:40,600
glean something from that. 
That's an exercise that comes up

423
00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:43,080
several times throughout A Song 
of Ice and Fire, including in 

424
00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:45,240
this scene, the Feast for Crows 
prologue. 

425
00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:48,680
That's what Molinder sort of 
pins Armin down on. 

426
00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:52,120
EC ends up saying, yeah, but 
Armin disagrees that the stories

427
00:21:52,120 --> 00:21:54,320
are similar and Molinder says 
yes, they are. 

428
00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:57,560
They all talk about a three 
headed dragon or Dragons, and 

429
00:21:57,560 --> 00:21:59,560
they all refer to the same 
place. 

430
00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:03,520
Maybe this story is fake, but 
there is a common element. 

431
00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:06,240
We know it's real too. 
So of course I'm more on 

432
00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:07,720
Molinder's side for that reason 
as well. 

433
00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:11,200
Something George is good at 
though is loading both sides of 

434
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:12,480
a competing mystery with 
evidence. 

435
00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:16,680
He's he's good at making both 
sides of a mystery compelling. 

436
00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:20,160
If it's a 2 sided mystery, maybe
there's 3 or 4 possibilities, 

437
00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:23,200
he's good at loading all those 
in there, or loading multiple 

438
00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:27,200
possibilities by by just being 
clever with the evidence, being 

439
00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:30,040
realistic with it. 
Armin and Mollander's argument. 

440
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:34,320
Even though we can pretty easily
take Mollander's side, it's a 

441
00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:38,480
very believable type debate, it 
seems like. 

442
00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:40,440
Yeah, that seems like the type 
of things people would be 

443
00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:42,800
talking about. 
And I use this quote early in 

444
00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:46,760
the episode because of what I 
said a little before it relating

445
00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:52,320
to what a subject this would be 
in terms of, Yeah, of course, 

446
00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:55,680
people in and in right now, it 
doesn't matter that it's Old 

447
00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:59,440
Town, as long as they have this 
news, as long as the word of 

448
00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:02,560
Dragons has gotten to them, 
that's what they're going to 

449
00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:06,240
talk about, Right. 
So it's just such big news. 

450
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:07,640
It's a big deal. 
There's Dragons. 

451
00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:09,960
What Dragons are back? 
Like who wouldn't talk about 

452
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:12,600
that? 
It's all the biggest gossip 

453
00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:15,040
item. 
It would be #1 Google News 

454
00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:17,640
trending or, or what have you, 
if they had such a thing. 

455
00:23:18,120 --> 00:23:20,360
So imagine when the Dragons were
dying out. 

456
00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:25,000
It would be a similarly 
constantly discussed thing, like

457
00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:27,800
who did it? 
Why are they dying? 

458
00:23:28,360 --> 00:23:31,920
Did anyone do it? 
Is there is this really the last

459
00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:35,600
dragon in the world? 
It's very, very similar 

460
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:39,560
conversations but with a very 
different outlook because one is

461
00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:42,200
are the Dragons back? 
1 is what does that mean? 

462
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:44,800
One is, are the Dragons gone? 
What does that mean? 

463
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,720
Right. 
So honestly with the competing 

464
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:53,560
evidence here with adult Dragons
and the idea that it's hard to 

465
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:58,400
pinpoint why anyone would think 
magic would end because of a 

466
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:00,320
loss of Dragons, like where did 
that idea come from? 

467
00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:05,120
So I definitely in the beginning
here, I lean towards the 

468
00:24:05,120 --> 00:24:07,960
maesters may have killed the 
Dragons off or someone did, but 

469
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:10,200
I'm not so sure about the the 
reason that we're given. 

470
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:13,280
We'll continue to build this 
case as we move forward, Nina 

471
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:16,520
adds on. 
The case of Silverwing wasn't 

472
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:21,200
young by the time of 153, more 
than a century old, but still 

473
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:24,440
that would that's a lot younger 
than you know, Vergar lived 

474
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:26,480
longer than that. 
Obviously Vergar was killed 

475
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:28,960
violently, but Vergar was well 
over 100 when she died. 

476
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:32,040
Valerian died. 
Well, I'm almost 200 years old 

477
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,720
and had really gnarly wounds, 
right that were unhealed. 

478
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:40,360
So I don't know. 
We don't have a lot of data on 

479
00:24:40,360 --> 00:24:43,320
Dragon Age lengths like Vergar 
and Valerian might have been a 

480
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:45,080
little outstanding for all we 
know. 

481
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:48,720
We just don't, we do not have a 
lot of Dragons that lived over 

482
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:50,680
100 years to compare to Dragons 
that didn't. 

483
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:55,120
So it's possible 100 years is 
actually about right. 

484
00:24:55,120 --> 00:24:57,040
But that's not really according 
to what we've heard. 

485
00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,560
We're more told that it it goes 
longer than that. 

486
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:03,680
And it's also just hard to know,
like when did Silverwing die? 

487
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:06,960
Did someone never go collect 
those bones, those valuable 

488
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:09,000
bones? 
Did people not find that 

489
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:10,560
somewhere? 
Even in fire and blood? 

490
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:13,320
Gildained admits that the 
reports of Sheep Steeler just 

491
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:16,080
stop after 136. 
That's not the that's nowhere 

492
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:18,480
near the same as evidence that 
she died around that day. 

493
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:21,760
It's just there's no more 
reports, which is just could 

494
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:25,920
easily be a factor of sheep's 
dealer was too deep in the Vale.

495
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:28,800
The northern Vale is not very 
populated. 

496
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:31,200
It's still pretty much clan 
territory. 

497
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,680
And then we hear not reports of 
sheep's dealer. 

498
00:25:35,360 --> 00:25:39,160
That means in common society the
plans. 

499
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:41,440
I bet they're still seeing 
Sheep's dealer. 

500
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:46,160
Up until the time that she 
actually did pass, the cannibal 

501
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:48,880
was. 
You can maybe fudge the cannibal

502
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:50,360
a little more because it's 
possible. 

503
00:25:50,360 --> 00:25:55,000
Cannibal was very old, so that 
one is the least likely to have 

504
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:58,880
been killed by a human, but the 
most likely to be old. 

505
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:01,200
Gandalf reports that the 
Cannibal just vanished after 

506
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:02,720
war's end. 
Just we still know. 

507
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:07,160
So that gives you 20 years of 
maybe they were wrong. 

508
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:09,840
Maybe Cannibal was still alive 
of like runway. 

509
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,840
Maybe Cannibal had gotten too 
old and was no longer able to 

510
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:15,280
fly around a lot. 
And of course the dragon that 

511
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:18,360
can't hunt is going to pass 20 
years is enough time to account 

512
00:26:18,360 --> 00:26:22,520
for that. 
So you can squint and see how 

513
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:24,520
some of these would fit. 
The problem is fitting all of 

514
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:30,160
them right chief Steeler, 
cannibal and and silver wing 

515
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:34,080
like plus morning light like 
something might be up. 

516
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:38,400
So yeah, keeping in mind all 
that plus the uncertainty of the

517
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,440
maesters figures is important 
here. 

518
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:43,920
To me, this could also suggest 
that if they were killing off 

519
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:47,720
Dragons, they didn't have a goal
of just kill every single last 

520
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:50,640
one. 
Because if they weren't trying 

521
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:53,040
to kill every last single one, 
that might imply that there was 

522
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:55,680
some sort of hey, that will 
reduce magic in the world type 

523
00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:58,600
end state. 
But otherwise, if we're looking 

524
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:01,040
at a different motive, like just
kill as many of them as we can 

525
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:04,240
because they're terrible and 
because they're Dragons, like, 

526
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,320
isn't that motivation enough? 
Get rid of the Dragons because 

527
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:10,240
Dragons are bad for people. 
Maybe that's the reason. 

528
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:12,840
Maybe that's why they weren't 
trying for total extinction, not

529
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:15,480
just because it didn't produce a
desired result, but because it 

530
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:20,240
wasn't feasible. 
Lost dragon lore. 

531
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:24,360
The Dance didn't just kill most 
of the Dragons, it destroyed 

532
00:27:24,360 --> 00:27:26,240
most of all of the dragon 
keepers. 

533
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:29,200
Now here's where we have to 
remind ourselves that book and 

534
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:30,880
show dragon keepers are a bit 
different. 

535
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:33,160
They're not super different. 
They look a lot different. 

536
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:35,120
That's partly for budget 
reasons. 

537
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,640
In the books, they wear armor, 
they're a little more decked 

538
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:42,160
out, they're a little more 
guardian than caretaker, but 

539
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:44,560
they're both. 
And in the show, they're less 

540
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,120
guardian, more more caretaker, 
but still both. 

541
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:53,560
Either way, whichever version, 
they have a similar place in 

542
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:56,280
this whole thing, which is yeah,
they're dragon keepers. 

543
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,000
They guard them from outside 
harm, they guard them from each 

544
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,600
other. 
They make sure basic things 

545
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:03,720
happen. 
I'm sure they were involved in 

546
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:07,080
feeding and some basic rearing 
and things like that. 

547
00:28:07,360 --> 00:28:11,480
After all, it's the dragon 
keepers who were given the order

548
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:15,720
when one dragon is brought from 
one place to another, meaning a 

549
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:16,880
dragon that doesn't have a 
rider. 

550
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:19,240
We've seen an example of that in
Fire and Blood. 

551
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:26,360
So when the dragon pit was 
stormed during the Dance, the 

552
00:28:26,360 --> 00:28:28,400
dragon keepers sort of had a 
last stand. 

553
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:33,000
There were 77 of them and 50 of 
them faced the mob. 

554
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:37,920
And I don't know that any of 
those 50 survived and the 

555
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,800
organization wasn't restored 
afterwards. 

556
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:43,880
Aegon the Third maybe just 
didn't care. 

557
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,400
I mean, he is the dragon Bane. 
He may not have been so 

558
00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:49,880
interested in restoring the 
order because of his feelings on

559
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:52,800
Dragons, which are a little more
nuanced than we're told. 

560
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:55,880
He didn't just hate Dragons, he 
was a little afraid of them. 

561
00:28:55,880 --> 00:29:01,560
Yes, but his reign was 26 years 
long and his thoughts on Dragons

562
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:03,640
were not consistent the entire 
way through. 

563
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:07,240
So the guardian aspect is 
important of dragon keepers 

564
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:12,600
because without them, well, 
someone's sneaking in and doing 

565
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:16,000
violence to hatchlings or young 
Dragons is a lot more feasible. 

566
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:19,800
Going to be harder to do when 
they're well guarded in a non 

567
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,160
destroyed dragon pit. 
They don't even really have the 

568
00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:24,880
edifice to keep the Dragons in 
anymore after the dance. 

569
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:29,720
So this could be related. 
Plus actual caretaking right? 

570
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:34,480
What would happen to our society
if just one day aliens came and 

571
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:36,960
took away all the people that do
childcare? 

572
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:41,720
That's bad. 
These are a smaller group than 

573
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:43,840
all the people in the world that
do childcare, right? 

574
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:48,960
It's only 77 people, but they 
represent probably 90% of the 

575
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:52,240
knowledge of how to take care of
Dragons day-to-day, right? 

576
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:54,360
And they're just gone. 
It wasn't just that they 

577
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:56,360
couldn't be replaced, that they 
weren't replaced. 

578
00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:57,640
Rather, they might not. 
It might not have been 

579
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:00,400
impossible to replace them. 
The the training, the 

580
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,120
techniques, the things they knew
might have just been lost. 

581
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:04,440
Might be it. 
I'm just gone. 

582
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:08,120
Their techniques, their body of 
knowledge just wiped out on that

583
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:09,680
day at the dragon pit, I think 
is it. 

584
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:11,960
You're looking at all those 
Dragons getting killed in the 

585
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:14,200
collapse of the dragon pit. 
But a lot more than people and 

586
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,560
Dragons were lost that day. 
I think a lot of knowledge was 

587
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,480
lost too. 
It's hard to believe that 

588
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:23,520
knowledge wasn't at least deeply
affected, if not somewhat wiped 

589
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:25,240
out. 
I think it's nearly certain, 

590
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:28,760
yes, they were guardians, but 
one of the things they're 

591
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:32,520
guardians of is they know how 
Dragons can be harmed. 

592
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:36,080
Like that's part of security is 
knowing your weaknesses, right? 

593
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:37,640
Like, well, if someone's going 
to sneak in to try to harm 

594
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:42,280
Dragons, this is what they might
do because we've seen it before.

595
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:46,200
And B, this is the things they 
might try because we've seen it 

596
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:48,280
before. 
And C, this is the things that 

597
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:50,280
if they do, we're actually in 
trouble because these are the 

598
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:52,720
things that might actually work.
And we know that because, see, 

599
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,800
we've seen all this before. 
These aren't the kind of things 

600
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,160
they're necessarily reporting to
the kings and Princess. 

601
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:00,480
This is day-to-day like 
management stuff. 

602
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:03,080
This is administrative stuff. 
This is steward business, this 

603
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:05,760
is not. 
I don't think the Targaryens in 

604
00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:08,240
Valyria knew this stuff either. 
This was mostly their 

605
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:12,280
subordinates. 
Maybe the occasional Targaryen 

606
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:16,040
took a distinct interest and got
into the nitty gritty of how 

607
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:19,480
these things worked, but I doubt
it was common. 

608
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:24,560
It's the same with like horses. 
Noble, the nobility own the best

609
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:28,320
horses, but only a few of them 
are actually like horse experts.

610
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:30,840
A few they know like fighting on
horses. 

611
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:32,480
They know they are, they're 
expert at fighting from 

612
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:35,880
horseback. 
But as far as breeding and care 

613
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:38,880
and all that stuff, the dude 
that runs the stables for them 

614
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:43,000
knows more of that like by a 
mile, with a few exceptions. 

615
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:44,960
And so that's the same 
comparison I'm drawing here. 

616
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:47,480
The probably not many Targaryens
that were super knowledgeable 

617
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:49,560
about these kind of things. 
So when the dragon keepers were 

618
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:53,520
gone, who's filling that in? 
The answer is no one. 

619
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:58,600
And you go another 10 years, you
go to Baylor, the blesseds time.

620
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,000
So whatever was written down, 
they still had. 

621
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:06,720
Then it got burned, a lot of it.
So as we're looking to the loss 

622
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:10,360
of people and Dragons, we really
need to be looking to the loss 

623
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:12,520
of knowledge that made all this 
work in the 1st place. 

624
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,440
That's a big part of this. 
And I think that is somehow 

625
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:17,760
related to maybe why the Dragons
were so weak. 

626
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:20,800
Maybe they weren't poisoned, 
maybe they just had really bad 

627
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:23,480
caretakers. 
On the other hand, that argument

628
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:27,480
can't go too far because Danny 
didn't have any knowledge. 

629
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:30,360
All she needed to do would be 
like, oh, look, they like to 

630
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:32,280
burn their meat. 
At first she was struggling like

631
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:33,920
they didn't. 
She didn't figure that out. 

632
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,280
They once she figured out that 
they like their meats burned, 

633
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:39,120
they started gulping down huge 
amounts of it. 

634
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:41,360
She figured out that pretty 
quickly because the Dragons were

635
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:43,880
kind of like guiding, pushing 
her towards that, right? 

636
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:45,200
They're like, yeah, we don't 
want to eat that. 

637
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:48,600
As a mom, you're like, hell, I 
got to find something my kids 

638
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:50,440
going to eat. 
You're going to be putting all 

639
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:52,680
your attention on that. 
So maybe they were just this 

640
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:54,400
laziness. 
Maybe they didn't know that the 

641
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:56,720
Dragons wanted their meat 
burned, but the Dragons would do

642
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,360
it themselves. 
This is a dragon that hatched, 

643
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,240
that laid eggs, laid five eggs. 
How are you going to think this 

644
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:04,080
dragon didn't get some 
nutrition? 

645
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:07,560
It's not complicated giving a 
dragon a goat and letting it do 

646
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:09,480
its thing, right? 
If you don't burn it first, 

647
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:13,120
it'll burn it first. 
So I don't know that we can take

648
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:15,120
this argument too far, but I do 
think it matters. 

649
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:16,640
I think it's included, but I 
don't think it can be 

650
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:18,200
everything. 
So let's move on. 

651
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:22,440
One thing that matters here is 
who the king was. 

652
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,000
If we had a different king, we 
might have had somebody that was

653
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:28,320
more interested in restoring the
dragon keepers, making sure that

654
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:32,640
the remaining Dragons were well 
taken care of, just dealing with

655
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:37,480
the problem in general. 
But we had perhaps the least pro

656
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:41,640
dragon king of all time in 
charge during the time where the

657
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:45,320
Dragons died out. 
So this next part, the magic or 

658
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:49,560
the Egg George when riding the 
hedge night of all things, 

659
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:52,400
included some lore that's 
relevant to us here. 

660
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:54,520
Quote. 
Why would they name it a 

661
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:56,480
dragonfly? 
He wondered. 

662
00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:00,600
It looks nothing like a dragon, 
not that Dunk had ever seen a 

663
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:03,200
dragon. 
The old man had though. 

664
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:07,680
Dunk had heard the story half 
100 times, how Sir Arlen had 

665
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:11,199
been just a little boy when his 
grandfather had taken him to 

666
00:34:11,199 --> 00:34:15,000
King's Landing, and how they'd 
seen the last dragon there the 

667
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:20,080
year before it died. 
She'd been a green female, small

668
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:24,639
and stunted, her wings withered.
None of her eggs had ever 

669
00:34:24,639 --> 00:34:27,840
hatched. 
Some say King Aegon poisoned 

670
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:29,639
her. 
The old man would tell. 

671
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:33,639
The third Aegon that would be 
not King Garon's father, but the

672
00:34:33,639 --> 00:34:36,280
one they named Dragon Bane, or 
Aegon the Unlucky. 

673
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:39,239
He was afraid of Dragons, for 
he'd seen his uncle's beast 

674
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,000
devour his own mother. 
The summers have been shorter 

675
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:45,280
since the last dragon died, and 
the winter's longer and crueler.

676
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:49,600
Sir Arlen kind of sounds like he
could be a radio presenter in a 

677
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:51,159
nice way. 
Complimentary. 

678
00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:56,280
So he said he saw it the year 
before he died, which means the 

679
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:59,600
year 152, which would be 57 
years before the hedge night. 

680
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:05,640
So very young he was at the 
time, he was very sad that Nina 

681
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:09,480
writes the circumstances here. 
The the Red Keep or King's 

682
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:10,480
landings. 
I like they have some sort of 

683
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:13,400
menagerie, right? 
Like a lot of the Dragons aren't

684
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:15,800
just on display all the time. 
So I'm, I'm not really sure what

685
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,120
the circumstances are here, but 
it might relate to Egon the 

686
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:20,360
third not really wanting to be 
around them. 

687
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:24,440
So maybe they spent more time 
outside aware they couldn't get 

688
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:26,880
at people. 
I I'm not really clear on it, 

689
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:31,520
but it's unusual but not 
inexplicable that someone of Sir

690
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:33,960
Arlen Station, well, he wouldn't
even been a Sir then of course 

691
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:36,760
could see a dragon while 
visiting King's Landing. 

692
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:38,400
That's not something you can 
just go do right? 

693
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:41,400
There may have been an event 
though, a a public celebration. 

694
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:44,400
It could have been King Aegon, 
the future King Aegon, Prince 

695
00:35:44,400 --> 00:35:47,840
Aegon, future King Aegon the 4th
betrothal to his sister who 

696
00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:50,920
would be married the next year. 
This is actually a big deal 

697
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:54,280
because there hadn't been a 
brother sister union since 

698
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:59,040
before the Dance at this point. 
So this is in the one 30s and 

699
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:01,520
there hadn't been a brother 
sister union since Aegon 

700
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:03,680
marrying Helena, Aegon the 
second. 

701
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:08,360
So that could be when they roll 
this dragon out for the 

702
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:10,040
marriage. 
Be like, hey, look, everybody, 

703
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:12,400
you know doctrine of 
exceptionalism, right? 

704
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:16,640
The only reason Targaryen incest
is accepted in Westeros is part 

705
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:18,200
of the doctrine of 
exceptionalism. 

706
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:20,080
So they might be kind of, you 
know, reminding everybody of 

707
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:21,920
those that connective connective
tissue. 

708
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:23,760
Like the reason the Targaryens 
can do this is because they have

709
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:25,400
Dragons. 
See, like this one, even though 

710
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:27,960
it's weak and dying, it is a 
dragon. 

711
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:31,680
Another suggestion by Nina here 
is that, well, there were 

712
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:36,800
several false Darrons after 
Daron the Daring was killed in 

713
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:39,480
the Dance, with the 
circumstances not being quite 

714
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:43,040
clear, his body not found, 
several Prince Darrons popped up

715
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:44,520
after the fact to claim they 
were him. 

716
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:49,400
Now those false Darrons probably
didn't have Dragons. 

717
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:53,360
If the Dragons hadn't died out, 
this false Darren wouldn't have 

718
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:57,400
even appeared because it would 
be a a non starting point. 

719
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,120
It wouldn't be a start. 
You can't have this dragon 

720
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:03,680
Prince who doesn't have a dragon
in the era when all the dragon 

721
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:06,680
Princess have Dragons. 
So that wouldn't fly literally 

722
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:08,960
and he wouldn't get anywhere 
militaristically either because 

723
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:10,080
of that whole lack of dragon 
thing. 

724
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:13,680
Now false Darrons can appear in 
a dragonless or near dragonless 

725
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:16,920
society because, well, there you
go, you don't have to have that.

726
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:20,320
That form of proof is removed 
like, well, how can you prove 

727
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:22,000
you're Targaryen? 
You have no dragon. 

728
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:24,760
Well, no one can prove that 
they're a Targaryen via that 

729
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:28,040
method anymore. 
So that's one of the things that

730
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:32,040
it isn't just the strength of 
Dragons, it's gone. 

731
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:35,120
That encourages people to say, 
hey, maybe we can take down the 

732
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:37,760
Targaryens because they don't 
have that ultra unbeatable 

733
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:41,880
weapon anymore. 
It's also just the identity of 

734
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:44,320
Targaryens. 
It creates more claimants out in

735
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:48,240
the world because it's easier to
fake being a Targaryen. 

736
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:52,680
The era of fake Targaryens 
didn't really happen when the 

737
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:56,400
Dragons were around. 
It happened after the fagons, 

738
00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:59,880
the young griffs or whatever, 
and the false Derrons and all 

739
00:37:59,880 --> 00:38:00,920
these others. 
They didn't. 

740
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:05,760
And there were no fake, you 
know, Visenyas or fake Megors 

741
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:09,800
and fake dragon Princess. 
There were, to be clear, there 

742
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:12,880
were people who claimed to have 
dragon blood and they were outed

743
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:17,320
or not when the time of dragon 
seeds was upon us. 

744
00:38:17,720 --> 00:38:22,240
So, yeah, there was a way to 
prove or not prove the truth of 

745
00:38:22,240 --> 00:38:25,680
those words in that way. 
That proof died out, went 

746
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:29,800
extinct for the most part. 
Did people realize this was this

747
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:32,560
public knowledge? 
When people saw this dragon 

748
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:36,160
Arlen in his case, did they know
what they were seeing at the 

749
00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:38,240
time? 
Did they know that this was this

750
00:38:38,240 --> 00:38:39,560
is probably going to be the last
dragon? 

751
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:43,520
Did they know that they were 
looking at what would be the 

752
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:45,000
last dragon they ever saw at the
time? 

753
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:47,440
Did that is were they told that?
Were they informed that? 

754
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,400
Like, I don't think they rolled 
it out because it was the last 

755
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:51,560
dragon. 
Like, hey, everybody take a look

756
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:53,720
at the last dying dragon. 
I kind of don't think those were

757
00:38:53,720 --> 00:38:57,040
the circumstances because that 
that's like projecting weakness.

758
00:38:57,040 --> 00:38:59,560
Why would the throne do that? 
Even with Egg on the third being

759
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:01,800
not such a fan of Dragons, I 
don't think he's going to 

760
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:04,640
trumpet their weakness either. 
Like, hey, we don't have Dragons

761
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:07,400
anymore. 
Come get us so the false dragon,

762
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:11,240
the false Darrons is a 
possibility like a a a parade to

763
00:39:11,240 --> 00:39:13,600
celebrate victory where they 
show their real dragon to be 

764
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:16,720
like see this is where's the 
side with real Dragons, even 

765
00:39:16,720 --> 00:39:19,360
though they're not very 
formidable, we still have them 

766
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:21,040
that's still meaningful. 
It's still connection. 

767
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:24,120
A tournament maybe is possible 
as well, like having a dragon 

768
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:28,480
hang out just nearby, just again
to remind people that they yes, 

769
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:30,840
they still do exist because 
there might be rumors that 

770
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:34,760
there's nothing. 
And maybe if they don't show a 

771
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:37,520
dragon, then those rumors only 
get fueled. 

772
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:40,480
Unfortunately, showing the 
dragon they did show just fueled

773
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:43,320
rumors probably of my Dragon's 
not very healthy. 

774
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:46,840
Is it green and weak and the 
wings are withered and small. 

775
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:49,720
And this doesn't look good. 
You know, like you go to, I mean

776
00:39:49,720 --> 00:39:54,920
it, it reminds me kind of of 
what we hear about people going 

777
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:57,160
to see King Robert. 
You know, there's a couple 

778
00:39:57,160 --> 00:39:59,560
examples of this. 
Someone goes to see King Robert 

779
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:02,080
and they're like, oh, that man. 
He doesn't look like this 

780
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:06,680
powerful, unstoppable. 
Warhammer charisma guy. 

781
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:11,240
He looks overweight and and red 
faced and kind of sad and tired,

782
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:13,200
right. 
And the same thing happens when 

783
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:16,440
John sees Jaime Lannister 
compared to Robert, he's like, 

784
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:20,720
well, that looks like a king. 
You know, even though I don't, 

785
00:40:20,720 --> 00:40:22,600
even though he's not a good 
person, that's kind of what I 

786
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:26,720
think a king should look like. 
So I feel like you go to West, 

787
00:40:26,720 --> 00:40:30,280
you go to the Red keeper, you go
to King's Landing and you're 

788
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:32,560
expecting to see a dragon and 
you see that and you're like, 

789
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:34,360
we're supposed to be afraid of 
that. 

790
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:36,560
I mean, that thing, like you 
said, it's the size of a big 

791
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:39,080
dog. 
Like a big dog is dangerous, but

792
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:43,160
it's not like all fearsome like,
Oh my God, this is going to burn

793
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:47,720
our whole village type fearsome.
In fact, it, it probably looked 

794
00:40:47,720 --> 00:40:50,200
easier to kill than a big horse,
than a big angry horse. 

795
00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:53,360
So it's kind of you're damned if
you do, if you're damned if you 

796
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:55,760
don't with these Targaryens, if 
you don't show them the Dragons 

797
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:58,680
are still there, then people 
assume you don't have Dragons. 

798
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:00,920
If you do show them the Dragons,
you have people see that your 

799
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:04,200
Dragons are weak and you can't 
even ride them or fly them. 

800
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:09,560
And yeah, So it, it must have 
been very strange. 

801
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:12,800
It's like the kind of thing that
everyone talked about but no one

802
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:15,640
talked about to the Targaryens 
like the Small Council. 

803
00:41:15,720 --> 00:41:18,800
Are they bringing that up? 
Are you the guy on Master of 

804
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:19,920
Laws? 
Say so. 

805
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:21,600
Everybody on the agenda for 
today. 

806
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:25,400
Let's discuss this, this 
blooming extinction of Dragons, 

807
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:27,320
shall we? 
You know who brings that up? 

808
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:30,800
You know, like, you're at the 
board meeting and you're the guy

809
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:33,360
that's going to bring up who 
wants to be the first guy at the

810
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:37,040
corporate meeting that brings up
how terribly the company is 

811
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:39,800
doing. 
You know, like, yeah, we should 

812
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:41,520
probably all be thinking about 
quitting. 

813
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:45,440
And in this case, it might be 
like, yeah, So folks, have we 

814
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:48,520
considered that the lack of 
Dragons is going to probably 

815
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:52,160
lead to civil war? 
You know, we should think very 

816
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:55,840
distinctly and thoroughly about 
who's going to benefit from this

817
00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:58,880
the most, who's going to come 
attacking us like those are very

818
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:01,400
uncomfortable subjects. 
And this again, we got King egg 

819
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:04,560
on the third here. 
A man who just was that wasn't 

820
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:06,000
just a didn't just dislike 
Dragons. 

821
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:09,360
He didn't really like life. 
He was just a sad person. 

822
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:10,920
He was traumatized for very 
obviously for very 

823
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:13,120
understandable reasons. 
He didn't really like governing 

824
00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:14,800
all that much. 
He liked the commoners. 

825
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:17,520
He thought that they should have
rights and, you know, be taken 

826
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:19,360
care of, at least at a basic 
level. 

827
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:21,880
In a lot of ways, egg on the 
third had a lot in common with 

828
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:25,120
egg on the 5th and some 
unfortunate similarities to come

829
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:27,760
later. 
Too small and stunted, right? 

830
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:29,440
The drats. 
That's the basic description of 

831
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:33,000
this dragon. 
It just sounds kind of pathetic,

832
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:37,920
which if that's the symbol of 
your house, you've presented the

833
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:40,640
world with a pathetic symbol. 
That's like, you know what? 

834
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:42,000
We're not going to go with 
Dragons anymore. 

835
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:45,720
We want to go with little tiny 
plush Dragons. 

836
00:42:45,720 --> 00:42:48,440
That's our new sigil. 
Or you want to change your sigil

837
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:52,200
to, I don't know, a cricket or a
an apple? 

838
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:55,360
An apple, Yeah, We'd all be a 
deal saver if they thought 

839
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:56,920
themselves apples. 
Yeah. 

840
00:42:56,920 --> 00:43:00,120
Like, it's just, it's not 
intimidating anymore, is it? 

841
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:02,440
You're like, look at that sigil.
And then they think of the 

842
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:03,600
dragon. 
The only dragon they've ever 

843
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:06,200
actually seen in real life is a 
stunted small thing. 

844
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:08,920
And then how are they supposed 
to compare that to the three 

845
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:12,560
headed sigil of power? 
And it doesn't evoke what 

846
00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:14,840
Valerian evoked. 
I mean, that's night and day, 

847
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:16,120
right? 
People were scared to hell of 

848
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:17,640
that dragon. 
They tested it. 

849
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:19,800
They're like, we're going to 
fight this dragon just to see. 

850
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:25,040
And they came up, as you would 
expect, losing badly without 

851
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:28,480
even hurting the thing here. 
They'd be like, if we went up 

852
00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:31,160
against this dragon, it would 
barely get in the way. 

853
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:33,520
Like I could stomp on it and I 
could kick it and it would be 

854
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:35,280
out of my way. 
Like that's all we'd have to do 

855
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:36,720
to it. 
It really is not a problem. 

856
00:43:37,240 --> 00:43:40,080
I mean, I I really cannot 
emphasize how different this is 

857
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:42,840
in terms of, oh, my God, that's 
the biggest thing I've ever 

858
00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:46,960
seen. 
It could eat 20 people in three 

859
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:51,120
seconds versus that thing looks 
like it would struggle to finish

860
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:53,600
a chicken leg. 
You know, like it it might not 

861
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:55,120
be able to defeat a living 
chicken. 

862
00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:03,720
Yeah. 
So notice as well that in that 

863
00:44:03,720 --> 00:44:06,840
quote, some say King Aegon 
poisoned her. 

864
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:08,480
That would have been the talk of
the time. 

865
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:10,840
That's the talk of that era 
during Arlen's time. 

866
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:13,520
Notice that no one is saying the
maesters did it. 

867
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:16,000
At least we're not given a quote
from that era that says the 

868
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:18,560
maesters did it. 
The theory about the maesters 

869
00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:20,920
came from two places. 
One, as I said within our own 

870
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:26,560
fandom, came up with that just 
clever and creative to Marwin in

871
00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:29,280
A Feast for Crows. 
It's not some widespread 

872
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:32,000
conspiracy theory that pops up 
in a lot of different places. 

873
00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:34,520
I'm pretty sure it doesn't pop 
up anywhere else in the world. 

874
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:38,320
There's definitely a lot of them
who weigh in, a lot of other 

875
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:41,280
takes we're going to be getting 
to throughout the episode, but 

876
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:44,840
got to keep that in mind. 
This idea really only has the 

877
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:48,480
one source in world at this 
point, so there were probably 

878
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:50,160
other other culprits in mind at 
the time. 

879
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:52,160
People didn't start with the 
maesters, or at least people 

880
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:54,960
like Arlen didn't. 
Arlen didn't tell Dunk 60 years 

881
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:56,440
later either that it was the 
maesters. 

882
00:44:57,000 --> 00:44:59,480
Dunk is still under the 
impression of what Sir Arlen 

883
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:03,440
told him, which was a lot of 
people think the King did it 

884
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:05,440
right. 
That's got nothing at all to do 

885
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:06,320
with the maesters. 
Are you sure? 

886
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:08,400
Maybe the king ordered the 
maesters to do it. 

887
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:10,680
I mean, you could see a little 
bit of connective, you can 

888
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:13,440
imagine a little and have some 
overlap there. 

889
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:15,400
But that's not what we're 
presented with. 

890
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:19,440
But let's not just let's, let's 
examine the rest of the quote 

891
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:23,160
here too, because there's some 
other ideas. 

892
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:25,760
But I do want to know when the 
Maester conspiracy began in 

893
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:26,920
world. 
Like who came up with that? 

894
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:28,640
I don't think that Marwin 
started it. 

895
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:31,760
I think he probably got the idea
elsewhere, although it is 

896
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:34,120
possible it came from him. 
More on him later. 

897
00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:37,000
Of course. 
Now later in his reign, Aegon 

898
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:39,600
did try to hatch eggs. 
We'll come to that. 

899
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:42,960
But it should be remembered that
yes, he that argues very 

900
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:45,480
strongly against Tim being the 
culprit for poisoning them if he

901
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:49,280
tried to bring them back later 
doesn't omit it entirely because

902
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:51,720
again, 20 some years he could 
change his mind be like, that 

903
00:45:51,720 --> 00:45:53,120
was a mistake. 
I shouldn't have done that. 

904
00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:57,080
I, I do want Dragons because, 
well, they give me more 

905
00:45:57,080 --> 00:45:59,080
authority. 
The same reason Aegon the 5th 

906
00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:01,440
reached that same conclusion. 
He's like, well, I'm a pro pro 

907
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:04,360
small folk guy and I can't get 
these Lords to do anything they 

908
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:06,280
wouldn't back. 
They wouldn't buck my authority 

909
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:09,400
if I had a dragon though. 
Now the last sentence there from

910
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:12,400
Sir from Sir Arlen is peculiar 
and when we definitely need to 

911
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:17,440
take a look at he says that the 
let me get an exact wording 

912
00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:18,640
here. 
The summers have been shorter 

913
00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:21,480
since the last dragon died and 
the winters longer and crueler. 

914
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:27,360
Well, that's not actually true 
in part, not in the long run. 

915
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:30,080
We can't discount it. 
Sir Ellen lived 60 years, so he 

916
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:34,160
saw a lot of winters and summers
and he slept outside a lot, so 

917
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:36,080
he'd be more keen on the weather
than most. 

918
00:46:36,080 --> 00:46:39,120
He didn't have a, you know, 
pavilion, right, No tents, 

919
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:43,280
things like that. 
But we have a lot of data on 

920
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:46,280
winters and summers in more 
recent times and there it's 

921
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:48,320
pretty much a pendulum. 
If it's a seven-year winter, 

922
00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:49,840
you're going to have a 
seven-year summer, you're going 

923
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:53,520
to have a seven-year winter, one
year winter, one year summer. 

924
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:57,440
It doesn't seem to fluctuate too
much, so he might be wrong about

925
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:02,480
the shorter shorter shortening 
of summers, but I do think he 

926
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:05,760
might be right about the length 
of seasons. 

927
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:09,320
We have fire and blood, so a lot
of those early decades are well 

928
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:13,160
covered, but the first noted 
really long winter was the one 

929
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:15,960
that started during the Dance of
the Dragons itself, which 

930
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:18,560
confounds things a bit. 
We have dragon dying out during 

931
00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:22,480
the same time that we have the 
longest winter at the time, and 

932
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:24,640
it's only been beaten by winters
that have come after it. 

933
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:29,240
And the 100 years later, there 
was another six year winter that

934
00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:31,880
went through the end of Makar's 
reign into the beginning of 

935
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:34,040
Aegon's. 
And then there's the ten year 

936
00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:38,240
summer that A Song of Ice and 
Fire is ending on the beginning 

937
00:47:38,240 --> 00:47:40,440
of A Song of Ice and Fire that 
is ends with that 10 year 

938
00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:44,600
summers going away as well. 
And presumably A10 year winter 

939
00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:46,120
or something, the magical 
winter. 

940
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:49,520
This one could be different 
because it's the winter, but you

941
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:51,280
see what I'm saying? 
Like we look back on what we, 

942
00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:54,160
the data we have for like 
Aegon's range, Harris's reign, 

943
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:57,880
you maybe find a three-year 
winter, but most of them are 

944
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:00,880
normal length, one year or maybe
2. 

945
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:06,640
The really long ones, all the 
ones on record for being like 

946
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:08,840
5-6 years or more. 
And there's not that many, but 

947
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:12,560
there's four or five of them are
all Dance or later. 

948
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:15,200
So maybe it's related. 
Again, doesn't mean it's the 

949
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:17,160
death of the Dragons that 
created it, but there could be 

950
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:19,480
some sort of connecting tissue 
or connective tissue between 

951
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:23,680
these concepts or these results.
So that's pretty noteworthy. 

952
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:26,200
It's probably a topic worthy of 
greater expansion. 

953
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:29,040
It's too, but it's also too 
relevant to just simplify here 

954
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:32,520
entirely. 
We have to get into at least to 

955
00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:35,400
some level, do Dragons increase 
the level of magic in the world?

956
00:48:35,720 --> 00:48:39,720
And how did the season lengths 
reflect that? 

957
00:48:39,720 --> 00:48:43,640
How do they, how did that push 
or pull against the data we have

958
00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:46,200
elsewhere? 
Did the Dragons come back in 

959
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:49,040
part because the magic in the 
world was sufficient to open 

960
00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:50,600
that window for them to climb 
through again? 

961
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:53,440
Or was it, you know, the other 
way around, Chicken and the egg.

962
00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:56,360
Now I I say enhanced rather than
brain because there's no chance 

963
00:48:56,360 --> 00:49:00,240
that all the Dragons being gone 
kills all the magic or vice 

964
00:49:00,240 --> 00:49:02,520
versa, because there's just too 
much magic in the world between 

965
00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:04,360
the period where there were none
in Westeros, right? 

966
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:06,800
We've got Bloodraven doing 
glamours. 

967
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:08,120
We've got Melisandre doing 
glamours. 

968
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:14,600
We've got, technically speaking,
Miriam Hezdur did that ritual 

969
00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:16,520
right before the Dragons were 
born. 

970
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:18,400
I mean, like a chapter or two, 
right? 

971
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:21,000
So that that was pretty serious 
magic, even though it didn't 

972
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:23,160
really amount to that much 
necessarily. 

973
00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:25,960
Drogo being slightly alive 
still. 

974
00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:28,920
But it was definitively magic 
and supernatural and creepy as 

975
00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:30,760
heck. 
It definitely happened before 

976
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:33,200
the Dragons came back. 
The comet was there. 

977
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:36,120
They hadn't seen it yet because 
they didn't have like a 

978
00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:39,080
telescope necessarily. 
But you know, Lewin did and he 

979
00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:40,840
saw it. 
So here's a few. 

980
00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:43,560
We had a few other takes from 
variety of sources on what they 

981
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:46,280
think and it's curious when we 
put them all together. 

982
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:48,240
A prominent example from A Clash
of Kings. 

983
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:50,560
Tyrion speaking to the 
pyromancer. 

984
00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:54,040
Helene quote. 
The Alchemist shifted 

985
00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:59,480
uncomfortably. 
Certain spells, Ancient secrets 

986
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:03,640
of our order. 
Very delicate, very troublesome,

987
00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:10,400
but necessary if the substance 
is to be all it should be. 

988
00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:14,800
Tyrion was growing impatient. 
Sir Jaclyn Bywater was likely 

989
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:17,840
here by now, and Iron Hand 
misliked, waiting. 

990
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:20,400
Yes, you have secret spells. 
How splendid. 

991
00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:24,640
What of them? 
They seem to be working better 

992
00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:27,520
than they were. 
Helene smiled weakly. 

993
00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:32,880
You don't suppose there are any 
Dragons about do. 

994
00:50:33,120 --> 00:50:35,000
You not, unless you found one 
under the dragon pit. 

995
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:37,680
Why? 
Oh, pardon. 

996
00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:43,840
I was just remembering something
old Wisdom Politor told me once 

997
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:48,560
when I was an acolyte. 
I'd asked him why so many of our

998
00:50:48,560 --> 00:50:54,200
spells seemed, well, not as 
effectual as the scrolls would 

999
00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:58,920
have us believe, and he said it 
was because magic had begun to 

1000
00:50:58,920 --> 00:51:03,640
go out of the world the day the 
last dragon died. 

1001
00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:07,760
So Sir Arlen was actually there 
for at least the seasons and can

1002
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:11,120
experience those, but he's not 
really a guy deep in magic, so 

1003
00:51:11,120 --> 00:51:13,640
he can't really comment on that,
nor would would he. 

1004
00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:16,720
And here's the problem with 
listening to these guys. 

1005
00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:21,280
Well, Wisdom Politord wasn't 
alive when the Dragons died out 

1006
00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:23,720
either. 
He doesn't know, and he might be

1007
00:51:23,720 --> 00:51:27,280
speaking sort of poetically 
because the Dragons died. 

1008
00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:33,000
Most of them died when Valyria 
died, and magic died with 

1009
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:38,040
Valyria, not literally, but in a
very symbolic sense, or in a 

1010
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:40,560
very metaphorical sense because 
they had so much magic and then 

1011
00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:42,480
it's just all gone. 
Whether or not the Dragons are 

1012
00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:45,400
directly connected to that or 
not, they all for the most part 

1013
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:48,760
died too, minus the Targaryen 
Dragons and maybe a few others. 

1014
00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:51,520
Certainly a massive percentage 
of all the living Dragons in the

1015
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:54,000
world were snuffed out there, so
maybe there's a connective 

1016
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:54,880
there. 
It's like, well, the Dragons 

1017
00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:57,120
died at the same time as all 
those other things, so we don't 

1018
00:51:57,120 --> 00:51:59,960
know really what the effect was,
but all that happened at once, 

1019
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:03,600
so it's just a way to say it. 
So maybe Wisdom Halene is taking

1020
00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:07,080
it a little too literally. 
Either way, there's problems 

1021
00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:09,080
with it because of what we said,
however. 

1022
00:52:09,080 --> 00:52:11,520
There's every reason to include 
his belief and his 

1023
00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:15,840
considerations. 
However, however, again, who is 

1024
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:19,440
Helene talking to? 
POV dragon expert Tyrion, the 

1025
00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:21,680
guy of all our PO VS who knows 
the most about Dragons. 

1026
00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:23,200
And this is complete news to 
him. 

1027
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:26,440
He doesn't even have a comment 
or reaction to the idea that 

1028
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:30,360
Dragons being back would 
increase the magic of the 

1029
00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:32,240
spells. 
He's more focused on whether 

1030
00:52:32,240 --> 00:52:36,400
Helene is BS ING him the the 
concept is foreign to him. 

1031
00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:38,000
Right? 
If he was like Oh well actually 

1032
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:40,400
yes, Dragons in the world would 
increase the spells. 

1033
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:43,240
Well, I don't think there's any 
Dragons in the world, but at 

1034
00:52:43,240 --> 00:52:44,880
least I've heard the that 
before. 

1035
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:46,880
Like maybe Tyrion would be 
familiar with that concept, but 

1036
00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:49,160
there's he isn't bat an eye. 
He doesn't react at all. 

1037
00:52:49,360 --> 00:52:53,560
He just says, yeah, OK, well, 
whatever, go do your do your 

1038
00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:55,240
job. 
You know, like I don't, I've got

1039
00:52:55,240 --> 00:52:58,400
no answers for you. 
So he kind of just shrugs it 

1040
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:00,000
off. 
He's more interested in making 

1041
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:02,760
sure a subordinate isn't isn't, 
you know, lying to him. 

1042
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:05,960
He's want to make sure that 
these these wildfire fruits 

1043
00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:09,960
actually have wildfire in them. 
So that's pretty peculiar, 

1044
00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:11,640
right? 
Tyrion does not notice this at 

1045
00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:12,680
all. 
There's nothing he says. 

1046
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:16,080
Our own dragon expert doesn't 
react to the notion that Dragons

1047
00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:20,080
in the world would bring more 
like magic or fire magic or 

1048
00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:22,680
whatever. 
I kind of was guessing that his 

1049
00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:26,760
lack of reaction means he'd he 
had read this and had always 

1050
00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:28,840
dismissed it as BS. 
OK either way, so. 

1051
00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:31,880
He's saying something that's not
new to him, but that he's long 

1052
00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:35,440
since just dismissed as like, 
no, Dragons certainly don't do 

1053
00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:37,160
that. 
OK, Yeah, yeah, that's a good 

1054
00:53:37,160 --> 00:53:40,040
way to interpret it. 
Either way, it kind of first 

1055
00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:41,440
blips. 
This is the same point, which is

1056
00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:44,920
that yeah, maybe Politor 
believes it, but that doesn't 

1057
00:53:44,920 --> 00:53:47,920
mean that it's well supported 
and and Tyrion may be against it

1058
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:50,040
as well. 
Now Helene, keeping with the 

1059
00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:52,600
Lannisters here. 
Helene goes and asks. 

1060
00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:56,960
Cersei says, hey, when you take 
Dragonstone from Stannis, if you

1061
00:53:56,960 --> 00:53:59,360
get any dragon eggs from there, 
let us have them. 

1062
00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:01,640
The pyromancers. 
What the dragon eggs? 

1063
00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:04,200
Oh boy. 
Cersei dodges the issue saying 

1064
00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:07,240
well surely if Stannis had any 
dragon eggs, he sold them to pay

1065
00:54:07,240 --> 00:54:10,000
for his war. 
And her mind, she's thinking 

1066
00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:13,440
Summerhall. 
So even Cersei knows it's a 

1067
00:54:13,440 --> 00:54:16,960
terrible idea to give the 
wildfire guys dragon eggs. 

1068
00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:21,840
Even Cersei, the one who is 
perhaps the most in common with 

1069
00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:25,280
Aries, The Who loved the 
pyromancers. 

1070
00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:26,840
That's one thing they don't have
in common. 

1071
00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:29,440
Aries and Cersei is Aries is 
Cersei doesn't love the 

1072
00:54:29,440 --> 00:54:31,000
pyromancer. 
She's like, yeah, you can burn 

1073
00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:33,240
the Tower of the Hand down, but 
I don't really like you guys 

1074
00:54:33,240 --> 00:54:36,200
that much otherwise. 
So of course, maybe this doesn't

1075
00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:38,000
need saying, but no one in the 
world has the answer we're 

1076
00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:40,160
seeking. 
No one actually knows if the the

1077
00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:43,680
Dragons bring magic or if the 
magic bring Dragons or whatever,

1078
00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:45,440
or if there is someone who knows
it. 

1079
00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:48,160
We don't know that they know it.
And how could they know it, 

1080
00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:49,480
right? 
It doesn't seem something that a

1081
00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:51,440
character could know. 
It seems unknowable. 

1082
00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:54,200
So what's fascinating to us is 
how well, this is a very good 

1083
00:54:54,200 --> 00:54:58,720
example of how George RR Martin 
makes very believable in world 

1084
00:54:58,720 --> 00:55:00,520
mysteries. 
Lots of different people have 

1085
00:55:00,520 --> 00:55:02,280
lots of different takes on what 
this is. 

1086
00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:04,640
And let's that's true for a lot 
of things in this world that we 

1087
00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:05,960
don't have definitive answers 
on. 

1088
00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:08,960
And even some that we do because
that definitive answer isn't 

1089
00:55:08,960 --> 00:55:12,360
widespread or the proof of it 
isn't trusted or also not 

1090
00:55:12,360 --> 00:55:14,360
widespread. 
And that's a great foundation 

1091
00:55:14,360 --> 00:55:17,000
for theorizing, right? 
We, we, what we do is make sure 

1092
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:19,920
you have the right details, even
if they aren't certain and build

1093
00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:22,880
from there rather than, you know
what a lot of real world 

1094
00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:24,600
conspiracies are. 
Well, you just kind of start 

1095
00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:27,360
from nowhere. 
You kind of start with vibes and

1096
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:29,400
just go from there. 
Now we want to have we need 

1097
00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:31,760
something even for conspiracy. 
Even conspiracy theories should 

1098
00:55:31,760 --> 00:55:34,720
have some sort of basis. 
So there's a a great parallel 

1099
00:55:34,720 --> 00:55:36,280
question here with the others, 
right? 

1100
00:55:37,120 --> 00:55:40,240
Do they emerge in great darkness
and cold or do they bring it 

1101
00:55:40,240 --> 00:55:42,720
with them? 
Now in terms of when they 

1102
00:55:42,720 --> 00:55:46,360
emerge, like first emerge, like 
return to the world, that's 

1103
00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:48,240
harder to say. 
That might be different than 

1104
00:55:48,240 --> 00:55:50,240
just, hey, it's cold tonight, 
let's go. 

1105
00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:53,920
We're already in the world 
again, but it's undeniable that 

1106
00:55:53,920 --> 00:55:56,320
they bring cold with them. 
That part we've seen. 

1107
00:55:56,440 --> 00:55:59,920
We've seen Sam and the others 
like, whoa, it's so cold all of 

1108
00:55:59,920 --> 00:56:01,040
a sudden. 
Oh my God, there's another. 

1109
00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:03,760
They know why. 
Like Will experiences this in 

1110
00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:05,280
the prologue. 
That was one of the first 

1111
00:56:05,560 --> 00:56:08,360
concepts were introduced. 
They absolutely bring the cold 

1112
00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:10,480
with them. 
Now maybe they can't emerge 

1113
00:56:10,480 --> 00:56:14,960
unless it's sufficiently A 
sufficient baseline of cold, but

1114
00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:16,600
it gets colder wherever they 
are. 

1115
00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:19,640
When Dragons are fire made 
flesh, they feel warm, if not 

1116
00:56:19,640 --> 00:56:22,400
hot to the touch, so that that 
that concept is paralleled, or 

1117
00:56:22,400 --> 00:56:26,400
if not reverse paralleled here, 
the Others bring cold with them.

1118
00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:28,040
I guess the Dragons bring fire 
with them. 

1119
00:56:28,520 --> 00:56:30,160
So maybe that's where we should 
be at with this. 

1120
00:56:30,160 --> 00:56:32,960
Maybe we should narrow it down 
because it's kind of hard to 

1121
00:56:32,960 --> 00:56:34,520
think Dragons returning to the 
world. 

1122
00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:36,160
Well, that's why the Others are 
back. 

1123
00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:38,760
What? 
The Dragons brought back the 

1124
00:56:38,760 --> 00:56:41,000
Others on their own. 
That's just kind of weird, isn't

1125
00:56:41,000 --> 00:56:42,080
it? 
Are we supposed to think that 

1126
00:56:42,840 --> 00:56:46,040
that the Dragons are responsible
for ice magic? 

1127
00:56:46,040 --> 00:56:50,200
I don't know about that. 
Maybe the death of the Dragons 

1128
00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:53,720
had an impact on that type of 
magic, Fire magic, right? 

1129
00:56:53,720 --> 00:56:58,840
And maybe the lack of Dragons 
reduces the use or potency of 

1130
00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:01,080
fire magic. 
We've seen some examples of 

1131
00:57:01,080 --> 00:57:05,800
that, like the Quaithe points 
out the guy doing the fire 

1132
00:57:05,800 --> 00:57:09,600
ladder, he's doing it better 
now, you know, And she points to

1133
00:57:09,600 --> 00:57:12,120
Dragons as a reason for that. 
And Quaid seems pretty 

1134
00:57:12,120 --> 00:57:16,480
knowledgeable, at least she has 
that gravitas behind her. 

1135
00:57:17,080 --> 00:57:22,520
But she might be making that 
correlation causation error that

1136
00:57:22,520 --> 00:57:24,240
is common enough in the real 
world. 

1137
00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:28,080
Just because you see something 
that happens at the same time or

1138
00:57:28,080 --> 00:57:30,280
something that happened just 
before doesn't mean it's the 

1139
00:57:30,280 --> 00:57:33,600
reason, right? 
Dragons came and so did magic. 

1140
00:57:33,600 --> 00:57:35,320
That doesn't mean the Dragons 
brought magic. 

1141
00:57:35,800 --> 00:57:39,960
It might, but it doesn't. 
Neither the word correlate nor 

1142
00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:42,120
causation appears in a song. 
I said fire. 

1143
00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:46,320
There's people that know how to 
use logic, but it's not quite as

1144
00:57:46,320 --> 00:57:48,640
widespread in our world. 
And, you know, I know the bar is

1145
00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:52,160
low, but it's still true. 
And this thing about fire magic,

1146
00:57:52,160 --> 00:57:54,880
I don't think we can really. 
I don't think that idea flies. 

1147
00:57:54,880 --> 00:57:59,120
I brought it up to sync it, 
frankly, because check this out.

1148
00:57:59,520 --> 00:58:04,000
Thoros resurrected somebody 
before the Dragons were born. 

1149
00:58:04,600 --> 00:58:06,600
He didn't know. 
He wasn't even trying to do it, 

1150
00:58:07,200 --> 00:58:09,680
and it happened. 
He accidentally resurrected 

1151
00:58:09,680 --> 00:58:11,680
somebody before the Dragons were
born. 

1152
00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:17,560
So yeah, that doesn't sound like
the Dragons brought that because

1153
00:58:17,560 --> 00:58:22,040
they weren't there yet. 
So it does seem to sound like 

1154
00:58:22,040 --> 00:58:24,320
the Dragons were part of what 
came back, not the reason it 

1155
00:58:24,320 --> 00:58:28,680
came back. 
Which all that said, if someone 

1156
00:58:28,680 --> 00:58:31,320
in world believes killing the 
Dragons will end magic, they'll 

1157
00:58:31,320 --> 00:58:33,160
act on that whether it's true or
not. 

1158
00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:35,960
We have to remember that what 
they believe is what they act 

1159
00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:39,600
on, not necessarily what's true.
So we can maybe establish all 

1160
00:58:39,600 --> 00:58:41,640
this evidence and say hey, it 
doesn't look like the death of 

1161
00:58:41,640 --> 00:58:44,840
Dragons ends magic. 
It may not be connected at all. 

1162
00:58:45,040 --> 00:58:48,120
The reverse connection looks 
like it's more likely, but 

1163
00:58:48,120 --> 00:58:50,040
people in the world don't 
necessarily reach that 

1164
00:58:50,040 --> 00:58:51,480
conclusion. 
They're going to act on their 

1165
00:58:51,480 --> 00:58:54,520
conclusion or their vibes if if 
it's not if calling it a 

1166
00:58:54,520 --> 00:58:58,000
conclusion is too much. 
So Danny had these instincts. 

1167
00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:00,600
Like Nina points out that she to
try to hatch the eggs. 

1168
00:59:00,600 --> 00:59:02,840
There was something in her that 
made her do that that that 

1169
00:59:02,840 --> 00:59:05,480
definitely gets more into 
supernatural like her bloodline.

1170
00:59:05,480 --> 00:59:07,400
She had voices in her head 
telling her to do it like 

1171
00:59:07,400 --> 00:59:09,800
they're calling her mother of 
Dragons in her fever dreams. 

1172
00:59:10,080 --> 00:59:11,560
So yeah, there's a little 
something going on there. 

1173
00:59:11,560 --> 00:59:15,040
I don't think egg on the third 
had the voices of his ancestors 

1174
00:59:15,040 --> 00:59:18,000
parading through his mind and a 
fever dream saying kill the 

1175
00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:21,800
Dragons. 
Yeah, choke them all out, drown 

1176
00:59:21,800 --> 00:59:24,800
them, drown those things. 
Like the thing to me that might 

1177
00:59:25,360 --> 00:59:30,520
be the best clue for when magic 
came back to the world or 

1178
00:59:30,520 --> 00:59:32,320
surged. 
Like if you look at it like a 

1179
00:59:32,320 --> 00:59:34,480
stock ticker, like it was down 
here, then all of a sudden it 

1180
00:59:34,480 --> 00:59:36,880
shot up to here. 
To me, it would be like the 

1181
00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:40,000
glass candles. 
They didn't work, then they did.

1182
00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:42,000
That's the most like, that's 
like the closest thing to an on 

1183
00:59:42,000 --> 00:59:44,560
off switch I can think of out of
all the examples we have here. 

1184
00:59:44,560 --> 00:59:46,400
Because, like, Dragons coming 
back in the world. 

1185
00:59:47,120 --> 00:59:49,920
Well, yeah, but when was the 
exact moment that happened? 

1186
00:59:49,920 --> 00:59:52,240
Only we know that because we saw
Danny do it. 

1187
00:59:52,240 --> 00:59:54,320
But we don't know that that's 
actually the trigger. 

1188
00:59:54,320 --> 00:59:55,600
That might have been part of the
trigger. 

1189
00:59:55,600 --> 00:59:59,240
This is, hey, magic came back. 
We know that because Thoros 

1190
00:59:59,240 --> 01:00:01,560
resurrected somebody. 
The others were in the prologue.

1191
01:00:01,640 --> 01:00:03,080
Melisandre's been using 
glamours. 

1192
01:00:03,200 --> 01:00:05,480
Blood Raven used glamours 100 
years before the Dragons were 

1193
01:00:05,480 --> 01:00:06,840
born. 
There's plenty of other examples

1194
01:00:06,840 --> 01:00:09,160
of magic prior to the Dragons 
coming back. 

1195
01:00:09,760 --> 01:00:11,560
But none of those things are 
super distinct, like the glass 

1196
01:00:11,560 --> 01:00:14,080
candles coming on and off again.
Like that to me is like, oh, the

1197
01:00:14,080 --> 01:00:16,240
moment those glass candles came 
on, maybe they all switched on 

1198
01:00:16,240 --> 01:00:17,560
worldwide at the same exact 
moment. 

1199
01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:19,840
To me, that would be, you can't 
get more definitive than that. 

1200
01:00:19,840 --> 01:00:22,440
However, because that's so 
definitive, I doubt we'll get 

1201
01:00:22,440 --> 01:00:23,520
it. 
And who would be able to 

1202
01:00:23,520 --> 01:00:26,480
coordinate that? 
It's like, yeah, well, it's 522 

1203
01:00:26,480 --> 01:00:28,040
in the morning. 
Our glass candle came back on 

1204
01:00:28,320 --> 01:00:31,040
5/22. 
That's when ours came back on. 

1205
01:00:31,960 --> 01:00:33,040
Yeah. 
I don't know that anyone wrote 

1206
01:00:33,040 --> 01:00:36,640
that down. 
If they did whoo that note 

1207
01:00:36,640 --> 01:00:39,520
comparing session would blow 
some minds court in half and 

1208
01:00:39,520 --> 01:00:41,440
another example of approaching 
this for another example from 

1209
01:00:41,440 --> 01:00:43,960
another angle, someone who's 
completely detached from 

1210
01:00:43,960 --> 01:00:47,040
anything dragon related right. 
He he said the trees have eyes 

1211
01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:50,640
again. 
He said is he is that because of

1212
01:00:50,640 --> 01:00:52,080
Dragons? 
Are we supposed to believe the 

1213
01:00:52,080 --> 01:00:55,200
weirwoods have eyes again? 
The heart trees are the children

1214
01:00:55,200 --> 01:00:58,040
are looking through the heart 
trees again because the Dragons 

1215
01:00:58,040 --> 01:01:01,760
were born. 
Maybe they came back for the 

1216
01:01:01,760 --> 01:01:04,840
same reason. 
Maybe the same magical on off 

1217
01:01:04,840 --> 01:01:08,320
switch was flipped or maybe some
magical floodgate was opened and

1218
01:01:08,320 --> 01:01:10,320
all this stuff poured back into 
the old Dragons were one of 

1219
01:01:10,320 --> 01:01:13,160
them, you know, and maybe the 
others coming back was the 

1220
01:01:13,160 --> 01:01:14,240
trigger. 
You know, it's like, hey, 

1221
01:01:14,240 --> 01:01:16,200
Dragons need to be back because 
the others are back. 

1222
01:01:16,280 --> 01:01:19,040
You know, we need to fight them.
One big on switch turning it all

1223
01:01:19,040 --> 01:01:22,040
on is a metaphor I prefer to the
Dragons being the on switch. 

1224
01:01:22,400 --> 01:01:24,440
I don't know what this on Switch
is, but I don't think it's the 

1225
01:01:24,440 --> 01:01:26,160
Dragons. 
But here's another one. 

1226
01:01:26,160 --> 01:01:27,800
Here we go. 
There's a yet another take. 

1227
01:01:28,240 --> 01:01:30,400
I briefly touched on this one 
earlier, but it's Danny. 

1228
01:01:30,840 --> 01:01:33,440
Probably what she learned from 
her brother, which you maybe 

1229
01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:35,480
take that from a grain with a 
grain of salt, but Visceras 

1230
01:01:35,480 --> 01:01:40,000
probably learned that from his 
their greater family which might

1231
01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:42,320
have some relevance. 
Either way, here it is quote. 

1232
01:01:42,560 --> 01:01:47,080
Magic had died in the West when 
the Doom fell on Valyria and the

1233
01:01:47,080 --> 01:01:52,240
lands of the Long Summer, and 
neither spell forged steel nor 

1234
01:01:52,240 --> 01:01:56,320
storm singers nor Dragons could 
hold it back. 

1235
01:01:56,720 --> 01:02:00,640
But Danny had always heard that 
the East was different. 

1236
01:02:01,000 --> 01:02:04,080
There's not even really a 
mention of Dragons is neither 

1237
01:02:04,080 --> 01:02:06,600
spell forged steel nor storm 
singers nor Dragons could hold 

1238
01:02:06,600 --> 01:02:09,480
it back when the doom fell on 
Valyria, right? 

1239
01:02:09,480 --> 01:02:11,160
Yeah, of course nothing could 
hold back the doom. 

1240
01:02:11,280 --> 01:02:14,400
The spells had held it back for 
a while but they they gave out I

1241
01:02:14,400 --> 01:02:17,880
suppose. 
So she's not saying the end of 

1242
01:02:17,880 --> 01:02:20,000
Dragons had anything. 
She's connecting it to the Doom.

1243
01:02:20,120 --> 01:02:21,360
She's not connecting it to 
Dragons. 

1244
01:02:21,360 --> 01:02:24,360
Which yes, the Doom killed a 
whole lot of Dragons, but still 

1245
01:02:24,360 --> 01:02:27,880
that's a a different source 
she's pointing to for the fall 

1246
01:02:27,880 --> 01:02:29,800
of magic. 
I I am curious where she learned

1247
01:02:29,800 --> 01:02:31,560
that from. 
Obviously besides she learned it

1248
01:02:31,560 --> 01:02:34,720
from Viserys, but did Viserys 
learn it from their father Aries

1249
01:02:35,120 --> 01:02:38,800
the Mad King or did? 
Or from Rhaegar, the guy who was

1250
01:02:39,040 --> 01:02:43,040
really actually into that stuff?
He was reading books and and 

1251
01:02:43,040 --> 01:02:44,400
digging into these old 
prophecies. 

1252
01:02:44,400 --> 01:02:47,240
So I I kind of think Rhaegar. 
But on the other hand, Viserys 

1253
01:02:47,240 --> 01:02:48,760
was just so young. 
Like his rate, how many 

1254
01:02:48,760 --> 01:02:50,720
conversations did Rhaegar and 
Viserys have? 

1255
01:02:50,720 --> 01:02:53,800
So I'm not really sure that's 
that's a tricky one because 

1256
01:02:53,800 --> 01:02:55,560
Viserys was so young when so 
much of this happened. 

1257
01:02:56,120 --> 01:02:58,520
All we know for sure is that 
Danny was even younger and she 

1258
01:02:58,520 --> 01:03:00,440
never even met Rhaegar. 
So definitely not that. 

1259
01:03:02,000 --> 01:03:07,040
Now King Airy's the 1st around 
that time just after Ashford 

1260
01:03:07,040 --> 01:03:08,760
Meadow and before make ours 
reign. 

1261
01:03:08,760 --> 01:03:12,800
So this is this is the era of 
209 to 2:21. 

1262
01:03:13,040 --> 01:03:14,760
That's when Erius the First was 
king. 

1263
01:03:15,040 --> 01:03:17,720
He discovered a prophecy that 
the Dragons would return. 

1264
01:03:17,960 --> 01:03:21,600
The prophecy was surely far 
older than the Dance of the 

1265
01:03:21,600 --> 01:03:23,600
Dragons. 
I doubt it was some 100 year old

1266
01:03:23,600 --> 01:03:26,800
prophet or 50 year old prophecy.
This is something super old, 

1267
01:03:26,800 --> 01:03:30,200
same as Rhaegar right? 
That would help explain why it 

1268
01:03:30,200 --> 01:03:31,920
had been ignored and lost in the
1st place. 

1269
01:03:32,080 --> 01:03:36,640
What's the relevance of a 
prophecy to say I don't know 

1270
01:03:36,640 --> 01:03:39,080
Aegon the Conqueror of the Senya
that says the Dragons will 

1271
01:03:39,080 --> 01:03:40,360
return? 
Like well what do you mean 

1272
01:03:40,360 --> 01:03:42,480
return? 
They're here now so they can 

1273
01:03:42,560 --> 01:03:45,360
they can safely ignore a 
prophecy that says the Dragons 

1274
01:03:45,360 --> 01:03:50,480
will return because they're not 
gone, right? 

1275
01:03:50,640 --> 01:03:54,400
The the idea of a prophecy that 
the Dragons return would only be

1276
01:03:54,400 --> 01:03:57,760
of interest to people who are 
living in a dragonless society 

1277
01:03:57,760 --> 01:04:00,560
or a society that's becoming 
dragonless. 

1278
01:04:00,920 --> 01:04:04,800
And maybe someone could find 
that prophecy potentially before

1279
01:04:04,800 --> 01:04:07,200
the Dragons have died, not long 
before they've died, and say, 

1280
01:04:07,440 --> 01:04:11,320
hmm, I see the Dragons are dying
out now and this says they'll 

1281
01:04:11,320 --> 01:04:12,680
return. 
So that's interesting. 

1282
01:04:12,680 --> 01:04:15,640
I don't know where you'd go with
that from there, but I do think 

1283
01:04:15,640 --> 01:04:18,840
people would largely ignore a 
prophecy about Dragons returning

1284
01:04:18,840 --> 01:04:20,560
in an era where they're all over
the place. 

1285
01:04:21,040 --> 01:04:25,880
So that means sometime after 131
but before two O 9. 

1286
01:04:25,880 --> 01:04:28,240
And what was that source I got? 
I wish I knew. 

1287
01:04:28,240 --> 01:04:30,400
Wish we knew which book it was. 
Right? 

1288
01:04:30,920 --> 01:04:34,240
And maybe if I expand this 
concept, maybe it does fit. 

1289
01:04:34,240 --> 01:04:37,400
Maybe we're looking at something
like the prophecy that said the 

1290
01:04:37,400 --> 01:04:40,880
Dragons would return also 
included a passage about them 

1291
01:04:40,880 --> 01:04:43,320
dying out. 
So it says, yes, they're going 

1292
01:04:43,320 --> 01:04:44,920
to die out, but they'll also 
come back. 

1293
01:04:44,920 --> 01:04:48,280
That would be of more interest 
to someone living in a dragon 

1294
01:04:48,280 --> 01:04:49,720
knee society. 
Be like, oh, they're going to 

1295
01:04:49,720 --> 01:04:52,600
die out and return. 
Just they'll return one day is 

1296
01:04:52,600 --> 01:04:54,240
confusing. 
You know, you might start to 

1297
01:04:54,240 --> 01:04:56,840
think more metaphorically, like,
well, like, does that mean 

1298
01:04:56,840 --> 01:04:58,400
Valyria? 
Like, what do they? 

1299
01:04:58,800 --> 01:05:01,120
You know, that just doesn't 
really register in the same way 

1300
01:05:01,120 --> 01:05:04,480
when Valerian is walking around,
flopping around, whatever he's 

1301
01:05:04,480 --> 01:05:07,080
doing. 
It's possible that humankind 

1302
01:05:07,120 --> 01:05:11,280
noticed, maybe there was an 
actual drop off in magic after 

1303
01:05:11,280 --> 01:05:14,000
the doom and they made that 
association kind of like Danny 

1304
01:05:14,000 --> 01:05:15,400
did. 
Like, Oh yeah, magic died in the

1305
01:05:15,400 --> 01:05:19,800
West with Valyria. 
Not like the powers became 

1306
01:05:20,360 --> 01:05:22,480
untouchable if they cease to 
exist in this world. 

1307
01:05:22,480 --> 01:05:25,480
It's that the knowledge, the 
people that had all like the 

1308
01:05:25,480 --> 01:05:27,880
same thing with the dragon 
keepers, but on a much larger 

1309
01:05:27,880 --> 01:05:30,840
scale. 
All the people that were 

1310
01:05:30,840 --> 01:05:33,600
permitted to practice magic, all
the people that had the ability 

1311
01:05:33,600 --> 01:05:35,120
to, the people that had the 
resources to. 

1312
01:05:35,120 --> 01:05:37,400
Because I'm sure a lot of this 
magic cost huge amounts of 

1313
01:05:37,400 --> 01:05:40,360
money. 
That's part of why Prince's 

1314
01:05:40,360 --> 01:05:43,080
Sorcerer Princess were a thing. 
You don't have a lot of hedge 

1315
01:05:43,080 --> 01:05:45,560
Wizards don't have the resources
for some of these things. 

1316
01:05:45,560 --> 01:05:50,920
Like you need rubies and slaves 
and awful things to make these 

1317
01:05:50,920 --> 01:05:53,280
grand sacrifices and these 
rituals and all that. 

1318
01:05:53,280 --> 01:05:56,400
Yeah, like you got to have 
wealth, or at least the form of 

1319
01:05:56,400 --> 01:06:00,320
magic that the Valerians engaged
with was a kind that was for the

1320
01:06:00,320 --> 01:06:02,520
wealthy. 
There's maybe other types also, 

1321
01:06:02,520 --> 01:06:05,200
but they're they certainly were 
the big spenders. 

1322
01:06:05,200 --> 01:06:09,160
And So what and whatever records
were in the Freehold, obviously 

1323
01:06:09,160 --> 01:06:12,080
that's all gone. 
And whatever was brought to 

1324
01:06:12,080 --> 01:06:15,560
Westeros and managed to survive 
may have been burned by Baylor, 

1325
01:06:15,560 --> 01:06:17,680
as I hinted at before. 
But still, there could be an 

1326
01:06:17,760 --> 01:06:22,200
observational angle here. 
You got the end of the doom. 

1327
01:06:22,320 --> 01:06:26,280
You got 100 years of people 
looking at things and going, 

1328
01:06:26,280 --> 01:06:29,040
yeah, they're certain spells 
don't work as well as they used 

1329
01:06:29,040 --> 01:06:31,040
to. 
People that actually practice 

1330
01:06:31,040 --> 01:06:33,080
magic who weren't Valyrian, 
there's definitely some of them 

1331
01:06:33,320 --> 01:06:36,520
Pyromancers, right? 
Even though we aren't 100% with 

1332
01:06:36,760 --> 01:06:39,960
Wisdom Politor and Wisdom Wisdom
Haleen, they're definitely doing

1333
01:06:39,960 --> 01:06:42,000
things. 
They're definitely using some 

1334
01:06:42,000 --> 01:06:45,360
form of magic, even if it's 
something that they've puffed up

1335
01:06:45,360 --> 01:06:46,720
to make them seems more 
important. 

1336
01:06:47,320 --> 01:06:51,000
I believe Haleen when he says 
their methods are working better

1337
01:06:51,120 --> 01:06:56,280
and he, the fact that he doesn't
know why it must be magic, I 

1338
01:06:56,280 --> 01:06:59,600
believe that too. 
And he's he believes it's 

1339
01:06:59,600 --> 01:07:01,680
Dragons. 
That's where I'm not so sure. 

1340
01:07:01,680 --> 01:07:06,440
But it's happening even if he is
unable to identify the source. 

1341
01:07:07,000 --> 01:07:09,160
Yeah. 
And we, we've often used the 

1342
01:07:09,160 --> 01:07:12,320
metaphor that it's like maybe 
it's a pendulum or like a wave. 

1343
01:07:12,680 --> 01:07:18,280
Magic comes in and then it comes
out and it's stronger in certain

1344
01:07:18,280 --> 01:07:20,480
cycles. 
It's like winter is stronger 

1345
01:07:21,120 --> 01:07:23,440
when we're farther from the sun,
right? 

1346
01:07:23,440 --> 01:07:25,960
When the closer to the sun we 
are, the warmer it is. 

1347
01:07:25,960 --> 01:07:30,360
It's it's not hard to understand
conceptually, solar panels work 

1348
01:07:30,360 --> 01:07:33,800
better when we're closer to the 
sun, when there's more sunlight 

1349
01:07:33,800 --> 01:07:38,240
to absorb. 
Imagine solar panels as magical 

1350
01:07:38,240 --> 01:07:42,280
absorbers, like they the more 
magic there for them to absorb 

1351
01:07:42,280 --> 01:07:46,800
from whatever is projecting it, 
the more they can fire back out 

1352
01:07:46,800 --> 01:07:48,840
into the world. 
It's not that hard to 

1353
01:07:48,920 --> 01:07:53,920
conceptualize I think. 
And maybe the Dragons dying out 

1354
01:07:54,360 --> 01:07:57,480
had nothing to do with those 
ebbs and flows. 

1355
01:07:57,480 --> 01:08:02,040
They just aligned with it kind 
of on their own, and it made 

1356
01:08:02,040 --> 01:08:05,880
harder for the dragon population
to recover because it was in an 

1357
01:08:05,880 --> 01:08:08,160
ebb state. 
The magical forces were in an 

1358
01:08:08,160 --> 01:08:10,000
ebb state, then they were at a 
nadir. 

1359
01:08:10,320 --> 01:08:13,200
Dragons are magical creatures, 
there's no doubt about that. 

1360
01:08:13,480 --> 01:08:17,800
So you could see that if like a 
creature of warmth being born in

1361
01:08:17,800 --> 01:08:21,279
winter, they would struggle to 
be healthy or even survive at 

1362
01:08:21,279 --> 01:08:23,439
all. 
I'm using that term winter kind 

1363
01:08:23,439 --> 01:08:25,920
of metaphorically here, but in 
this case you get what I'm 

1364
01:08:25,920 --> 01:08:27,200
saying. 
Like the Dragons are born in a 

1365
01:08:27,200 --> 01:08:29,800
time when magic is weak, then 
they're weak. 

1366
01:08:30,160 --> 01:08:32,680
You don't have to imagine 
maesters or other people are 

1367
01:08:32,680 --> 01:08:36,080
doing anything. 
But again, we are not the type 

1368
01:08:36,080 --> 01:08:38,560
of people to say, oh, we found a
reason, that's it. 

1369
01:08:38,600 --> 01:08:40,560
No, no, no, no. 
There could be multiple reasons.

1370
01:08:40,560 --> 01:08:42,080
There could be multiple things 
at play here. 

1371
01:08:42,240 --> 01:08:44,120
So we continue. 
By the way, if Dragons 

1372
01:08:44,120 --> 01:08:47,359
themselves aren't engineered 
magical species, where did the 

1373
01:08:47,359 --> 01:08:50,080
magic come from? 
If if it wasn't coming from 

1374
01:08:50,080 --> 01:08:51,160
them? 
So there's yet another reason 

1375
01:08:51,160 --> 01:08:53,439
that there had to be magic 
before Dragons. 

1376
01:08:54,479 --> 01:08:55,800
They couldn't have started with 
them. 

1377
01:08:56,600 --> 01:08:57,960
And maybe Valyrians pushed the 
idea. 

1378
01:08:57,960 --> 01:09:01,279
Maybe the reason so many people 
think Dragons and magic have 

1379
01:09:01,279 --> 01:09:03,880
this connection like that is 
because they people were told 

1380
01:09:03,880 --> 01:09:06,279
that the people who are experts 
in magic pushed that idea for a 

1381
01:09:06,279 --> 01:09:07,640
long time, maybe even because it
was true. 

1382
01:09:08,000 --> 01:09:09,319
I'm not. 
I don't know why Valyria would 

1383
01:09:09,319 --> 01:09:10,920
lie about that. 
I mean, there's plenty of 

1384
01:09:10,920 --> 01:09:12,720
reasons they would lie about 
lots of things, but there's no 

1385
01:09:12,720 --> 01:09:16,240
obvious motive for this one. 
Bring bring that red comet back.

1386
01:09:16,240 --> 01:09:17,800
And I mean literally bring it 
back. 

1387
01:09:17,800 --> 01:09:20,560
Think about it for a minute. 
Did it herald magic or did it 

1388
01:09:20,560 --> 01:09:22,479
herald Dragons or did it herald 
both? 

1389
01:09:22,479 --> 01:09:23,960
Did it bring those forces with 
it? 

1390
01:09:24,520 --> 01:09:27,399
There's a book called The 
Tugging, our short story called 

1391
01:09:27,399 --> 01:09:31,640
The Tugging by Ramsay Campbell, 
an author from back in the day 

1392
01:09:31,720 --> 01:09:36,160
writing in the Cthulhu world, 
but he's not HP Lovecraft. 

1393
01:09:36,160 --> 01:09:38,040
But like a lot of authors, he 
wrote stories in it. 

1394
01:09:38,160 --> 01:09:40,960
And I might have mentioned this 
before, I'm pretty sure I have, 

1395
01:09:40,960 --> 01:09:42,760
but this is a good time to bring
it up again. 

1396
01:09:42,880 --> 01:09:47,000
The Tugging is a story about a 
wandering planet, a Red Planet. 

1397
01:09:47,000 --> 01:09:49,880
So it's kind of like the Red 
Star bleeding that when it it's 

1398
01:09:49,880 --> 01:09:51,479
actually a giant eye, it's 
really creepy. 

1399
01:09:51,840 --> 01:09:53,920
And when it's close, it does 
that. 

1400
01:09:53,920 --> 01:09:58,400
It is a magical activator. 
When this wandering planet gets 

1401
01:09:58,600 --> 01:10:02,080
near to another planet, it sort 
of activates the supernatural 

1402
01:10:02,080 --> 01:10:04,920
aspects of on that planet. 
It turns things on. 

1403
01:10:04,920 --> 01:10:08,560
Basically it's it is, it is like
sending out signals saying hey, 

1404
01:10:08,560 --> 01:10:10,360
you turn on, you turn on, you 
turn on. 

1405
01:10:10,800 --> 01:10:13,720
And basically it's activating 
magic on that planet where it 

1406
01:10:13,720 --> 01:10:15,800
was either very weak or not 
existent. 

1407
01:10:16,000 --> 01:10:18,680
That's a model that I think 
works here. 

1408
01:10:18,680 --> 01:10:22,760
The red comet does work as a 
herald for those things. 

1409
01:10:22,760 --> 01:10:25,760
The red comet was seen even by 
Maester Lewin. 

1410
01:10:25,760 --> 01:10:28,120
If we can believe Brand's 
vision, Maester Lewin saw the 

1411
01:10:28,120 --> 01:10:29,800
red comet even before the 
prologue. 

1412
01:10:30,360 --> 01:10:32,520
So there, yeah, there's been 
other red comets, There's been 

1413
01:10:32,520 --> 01:10:35,480
other comets, but those could 
just be ordinary comets. 

1414
01:10:35,480 --> 01:10:38,400
This could be the special comet.
This could be the one that 

1415
01:10:38,400 --> 01:10:41,920
heralds the either literal just 
heralds it, it's the symbol of 

1416
01:10:41,920 --> 01:10:44,520
it, or it could be the actual 
reason the comet could be 

1417
01:10:44,520 --> 01:10:48,400
emanating all this. 
And given this story by Ramsey 

1418
01:10:48,400 --> 01:10:50,640
Campbell, we know the the 
concept exists out there in 

1419
01:10:50,640 --> 01:10:52,120
fantasy. 
I know George has read that 

1420
01:10:52,760 --> 01:10:56,320
George likes Ramsey Campbell and
the a lot of these prophecies 

1421
01:10:56,320 --> 01:11:00,520
from Azora High or from the 
Reloris or what have you says 

1422
01:11:00,520 --> 01:11:04,360
when the Red Star bleeds, they 
are referring to the Red Star. 

1423
01:11:04,360 --> 01:11:07,440
They know it's part of it. 
They may not realize when 

1424
01:11:07,440 --> 01:11:09,720
writing the prophecy that it is 
the cause. 

1425
01:11:09,720 --> 01:11:12,360
The Red Star is the 'cause it 
isn't just a symbol. 

1426
01:11:12,360 --> 01:11:14,080
It isn't just a, hey, the signal
of what's coming. 

1427
01:11:14,080 --> 01:11:16,960
No, this is the reason. 
The red comet itself is the 

1428
01:11:16,960 --> 01:11:19,560
symbol and the cause. 
So, yeah, when you really add up

1429
01:11:19,560 --> 01:11:21,360
all the things that happened 
before the Dragons return in 

1430
01:11:21,360 --> 01:11:23,560
Book 1, it's a lot, some major 
ones. 

1431
01:11:23,720 --> 01:11:28,280
The resurrection of Barrack 
Merry, Masdor's ritual, all the 

1432
01:11:28,280 --> 01:11:31,920
things Melisandre did, you know,
long before, even before she 

1433
01:11:31,920 --> 01:11:34,240
came to Westeros. 
And of course, the return of the

1434
01:11:34,240 --> 01:11:35,440
others themselves. 
Yeah, there's just so many 

1435
01:11:35,440 --> 01:11:37,560
things that have nothing to do 
with the Dragons coming back 

1436
01:11:37,560 --> 01:11:39,000
because the Dragons hadn't come 
back yet. 

1437
01:11:39,000 --> 01:11:41,600
So it's really, it gets 
increasingly hard to say the 

1438
01:11:41,600 --> 01:11:44,440
Dragons are the cause. 
So I really lean against that. 

1439
01:11:44,440 --> 01:11:46,440
I really lean against the dragon
being the 'cause I, I, I think 

1440
01:11:46,440 --> 01:11:50,000
they're a symptom of the return.
They're part of it rather than 

1441
01:11:50,000 --> 01:11:51,760
the cause. 
And but I can and I can 

1442
01:11:51,760 --> 01:11:53,640
understand why people see it 
this way. 

1443
01:11:53,640 --> 01:11:55,480
They're such a loud, prominent 
thing. 

1444
01:11:56,000 --> 01:11:59,200
No one else saw the Others. 
No one else saw the comet until 

1445
01:11:59,200 --> 01:12:01,800
it was past the time of the 
Dragons being born. 

1446
01:12:01,800 --> 01:12:04,720
The comets was overhead for 
everyone to see at the beginning

1447
01:12:04,720 --> 01:12:07,320
of A Clash of Kings. 
It's the first thing you see in 

1448
01:12:07,400 --> 01:12:11,680
Crescent's prologue now, but it 
was there before, and this no 

1449
01:12:11,680 --> 01:12:14,240
one saw it. 
Dragons being back is something 

1450
01:12:14,240 --> 01:12:17,480
that everyone's talking about. 
It's on every sailor's lips. 

1451
01:12:17,600 --> 01:12:21,640
It's not on every sailor's lips 
that the Others are at the wall 

1452
01:12:21,760 --> 01:12:23,920
or that the dead walk again. 
People aren't talking about 

1453
01:12:23,920 --> 01:12:26,160
that. 
Maybe they would if it was more 

1454
01:12:26,160 --> 01:12:28,600
widespread and or believable. 
But The thing is, people have 

1455
01:12:28,600 --> 01:12:32,000
seen these Dragons, like a lot 
of people have seen Danny's 

1456
01:12:32,000 --> 01:12:33,320
Dragons. 
It isn't just a few people. 

1457
01:12:33,600 --> 01:12:35,040
Only a few people have seen 
these others. 

1458
01:12:35,040 --> 01:12:40,040
And most of them got killed. 
And the few that survived, even 

1459
01:12:40,040 --> 01:12:42,000
some of those don't believe it. 
Right. 

1460
01:12:42,000 --> 01:12:45,480
Even like Cotter Pike was 
questioning whether Sam really 

1461
01:12:45,480 --> 01:12:46,480
killed. 
Let them kill. 

1462
01:12:46,480 --> 01:12:48,440
Let them saw another. 
Yeah. 

1463
01:12:48,520 --> 01:12:51,880
So even though even Nights Watch
are doubting that the Others 

1464
01:12:51,880 --> 01:12:54,000
have been seen, so like that is 
a big part of it. 

1465
01:12:54,000 --> 01:12:59,760
The Dragons are so prominent and
talked about that promotes them 

1466
01:12:59,760 --> 01:13:05,040
to cause rather than symptom in.
In fact, Nina suggests it's 

1467
01:13:05,040 --> 01:13:07,560
possible that the Others had 
there's more intelligence behind

1468
01:13:07,560 --> 01:13:09,640
the Others returning who'd seem 
to have intelligence, whereas 

1469
01:13:09,640 --> 01:13:13,240
the Dragons don't. 
They come back to the world 

1470
01:13:13,240 --> 01:13:14,840
because they know the Dragons 
were coming. 

1471
01:13:14,840 --> 01:13:17,840
So to them, like imagine the 
others have their own prophecies

1472
01:13:17,840 --> 01:13:20,200
or ways of seeing the future and
they're like, oh, Dragons are 

1473
01:13:20,200 --> 01:13:22,440
coming. 
That's our big enemy. 

1474
01:13:22,440 --> 01:13:25,040
So we're coming back first or 
we're coming back because of 

1475
01:13:25,040 --> 01:13:27,160
them. 
So maybe don't, if we don't 

1476
01:13:27,160 --> 01:13:30,960
center humans in this, if we 
center it around the others, it 

1477
01:13:30,960 --> 01:13:33,200
it, it might look a little 
different or a lot different. 

1478
01:13:33,800 --> 01:13:38,080
So that's a compelling idea that
the others themselves are the 

1479
01:13:38,080 --> 01:13:42,200
ones taking action because of 
what they see coming in this 

1480
01:13:42,200 --> 01:13:44,200
world. 
The and it may relate directly 

1481
01:13:44,200 --> 01:13:48,640
to Dragons, if not other things.
So here's a huge question that I

1482
01:13:48,640 --> 01:13:51,000
have for us all. 
Where did this idea come from 

1483
01:13:51,000 --> 01:13:52,800
the first place? 
I touched on it in the intro. 

1484
01:13:53,040 --> 01:13:55,280
Dragons have been around 
thousands of years. 

1485
01:13:55,720 --> 01:13:58,480
Where did the idea even come 
from that ending Dragons would 

1486
01:13:58,480 --> 01:14:01,400
end magic? 
No one's lived under that state 

1487
01:14:01,400 --> 01:14:05,840
of affairs in like 5000 or plus 
years if ever. 

1488
01:14:05,960 --> 01:14:08,560
So who? 
Who came up with that? 

1489
01:14:08,760 --> 01:14:10,880
Where did it come from? 
Was it propaganda? 

1490
01:14:10,880 --> 01:14:12,880
Did someone just like get people
to believe that? 

1491
01:14:12,880 --> 01:14:17,400
And it took who though? 
Why after the fact? 

1492
01:14:17,680 --> 01:14:21,880
If you're looking at all the 
dead Dragons and seeing the drop

1493
01:14:21,880 --> 01:14:24,600
off in magic, or at least drop 
off invisible magic, you might 

1494
01:14:24,640 --> 01:14:28,120
make that correlation. 
You might think it's the cause, 

1495
01:14:28,880 --> 01:14:31,800
but without, without that 
precedent of seeing the Dragons 

1496
01:14:31,800 --> 01:14:34,080
dying and going, hey, look, 
there's less magic in the world.

1497
01:14:34,400 --> 01:14:36,320
Where did it come from? 
Right? 

1498
01:14:36,400 --> 01:14:39,040
Maybe it's the idea that hey, 
there's inherent magic in these 

1499
01:14:39,040 --> 01:14:40,280
Dragons. 
So if we get rid of magical 

1500
01:14:40,280 --> 01:14:43,200
things, then the world is less 
governed by magical things. 

1501
01:14:43,200 --> 01:14:46,800
That might be more of their idea
rather than, hey, we can end 

1502
01:14:46,800 --> 01:14:48,320
magic. 
It just people didn't 

1503
01:14:48,320 --> 01:14:50,760
understand. 
That's what's what they heard. 

1504
01:14:50,760 --> 01:14:52,880
They hear, oh, you're going to 
end magic by ending Dragons. 

1505
01:14:52,880 --> 01:14:55,800
And that's just what stuck. 
But in reality it was no, we 

1506
01:14:55,800 --> 01:14:58,880
just want to get rid of magic 
things and the Dragons are one 

1507
01:14:58,880 --> 01:15:00,320
of them. 
That's right. 

1508
01:15:00,320 --> 01:15:03,760
The Citadel isn't exactly pro 
magic in other ways either, are 

1509
01:15:03,760 --> 01:15:05,280
they? 
It's not like it's not just the 

1510
01:15:05,280 --> 01:15:07,360
dragon stuff that they avoid, is
it? 

1511
01:15:07,800 --> 01:15:11,920
No, they don't really like 
prophecies. 

1512
01:15:12,120 --> 01:15:13,800
They don't love talk about the 
others. 

1513
01:15:13,800 --> 01:15:15,480
Or I mean, some of the stuff is 
according to Marwin, and he 

1514
01:15:15,480 --> 01:15:17,360
might be exaggerating a little 
bit, but it's definitely not 

1515
01:15:17,360 --> 01:15:21,640
something they emphasize, right?
Like Maestro Lewin downplays it 

1516
01:15:21,640 --> 01:15:23,680
all. 
Eamon had sort of downplayed 

1517
01:15:23,680 --> 01:15:25,120
some of it. 
He'd kind of given up on a lot 

1518
01:15:25,120 --> 01:15:26,600
of it. 
Only near the end of his life 

1519
01:15:26,600 --> 01:15:27,960
had some of it come roaring 
back. 

1520
01:15:27,960 --> 01:15:30,920
Like actually that we were right
all along, we just had a few 

1521
01:15:30,920 --> 01:15:32,320
details wrong, that kind of 
thing. 

1522
01:15:32,920 --> 01:15:36,600
So even though there's a sudden 
sickness and weakness amongst 

1523
01:15:36,600 --> 01:15:40,840
the last generation of Dragons, 
I don't think the motivation is 

1524
01:15:40,840 --> 01:15:44,240
just end magic. 
I think it's a little more 

1525
01:15:44,240 --> 01:15:47,280
straightforward to think Dragons
are dangerous. 

1526
01:15:47,280 --> 01:15:49,960
Dragons are fire made flesh. 
Dragons are of flaming sword 

1527
01:15:49,960 --> 01:15:52,000
held above the world. 
Take up the prophecy stuff out 

1528
01:15:52,000 --> 01:15:53,280
of that. 
They're just dangerous. 

1529
01:15:53,280 --> 01:15:55,720
They kill lots of people and 
they give undue power to those 

1530
01:15:55,720 --> 01:15:59,960
few who can control them. 
I think the Citadel, that might 

1531
01:15:59,960 --> 01:16:04,440
be the quote UN quote world 
they're building is a world 

1532
01:16:04,440 --> 01:16:08,080
where people aren't under the 
thumb or claw or Talon or wing 

1533
01:16:08,120 --> 01:16:11,840
or dragon breath of those very 
few, because that's not a world 

1534
01:16:11,840 --> 01:16:14,040
they want to be under. 
Because look what the results 

1535
01:16:14,040 --> 01:16:17,360
have been. 
We've gotten Magor the Cruel and

1536
01:16:17,360 --> 01:16:19,680
Aegon the 4th and well, Aegon 
the 4th didn't even have 

1537
01:16:19,680 --> 01:16:22,520
Dragons, but it's because of 
Dragons that he's he was in 

1538
01:16:22,520 --> 01:16:24,720
power at the time of the Dragons
that came before him. 

1539
01:16:25,120 --> 01:16:28,840
So we can't assume that the end 
of Dragons for magical purpose 

1540
01:16:28,840 --> 01:16:33,560
was was the goal of the maestros
or some other agency or some 

1541
01:16:33,560 --> 01:16:37,760
other organization. 
But that doesn't mean they 

1542
01:16:37,760 --> 01:16:41,200
didn't have that motivation in 
general. 

1543
01:16:41,400 --> 01:16:44,080
Like forget the magic stuff, 
just kill the Dragons. 

1544
01:16:44,360 --> 01:16:48,160
Did you see what Vergar did to 
the Riverlands during the dance?

1545
01:16:48,760 --> 01:16:52,360
How better example do you need? 
You're like this one crazy dude 

1546
01:16:52,640 --> 01:16:55,760
just decided to burn half the 
riverlands and no one could stop

1547
01:16:55,760 --> 01:16:58,680
him even though other dragon 
writers tried like Prince Damon.

1548
01:16:58,840 --> 01:17:01,600
You could fully acknowledge that
Damon and Nettles tried to stop 

1549
01:17:01,600 --> 01:17:04,560
the sky and they couldn't. 
Cause you can only the 

1550
01:17:04,560 --> 01:17:06,560
Riverlands is massive. 
How are you going to guard the 

1551
01:17:06,560 --> 01:17:07,840
whole place? 
It's like trying to guard the 

1552
01:17:07,840 --> 01:17:09,960
shorelines from the Ironborn. 
They can always find a spot. 

1553
01:17:09,960 --> 01:17:12,520
You're not. 
And this is 1 big dragon. 

1554
01:17:12,520 --> 01:17:13,720
They still couldn't track them 
down. 

1555
01:17:14,320 --> 01:17:17,920
So, like, everybody knows that 
the whole Riverlands is like, 

1556
01:17:17,960 --> 01:17:21,680
yeah, we hate Dragons. 
This Vegard burned. 

1557
01:17:22,320 --> 01:17:25,920
Everyone knows someone who lost 
a home or family or it'd be that

1558
01:17:25,920 --> 01:17:28,600
kind of situation or, or worse, 
you know, like your your farm 

1559
01:17:28,600 --> 01:17:29,960
was burned by Vegard too. 
Yep. 

1560
01:17:30,000 --> 01:17:31,760
I get you. 
Yeah, we lost all our goats. 

1561
01:17:32,280 --> 01:17:36,080
Everybody would have this either
a direct encounter, multiple 

1562
01:17:36,080 --> 01:17:38,320
direct encounters, their 
families encounters, their 

1563
01:17:38,320 --> 01:17:39,840
friends encounters, all of the 
above. 

1564
01:17:40,360 --> 01:17:43,040
It's just such a bad look. 
And this is right before this 

1565
01:17:43,040 --> 01:17:47,520
era where the Dragons die out. 
So it's not it's anything but 

1566
01:17:48,240 --> 01:17:49,960
subtle, right? 
Everybody knows. 

1567
01:17:49,960 --> 01:17:52,960
Everybody saw it, you know, like
before it was potential. 

1568
01:17:53,520 --> 01:17:57,520
Before it was Aegon burned the 
soldiers on the field of fire. 

1569
01:17:57,520 --> 01:18:00,160
He burned a castle owned by a 
guy that everybody hated. 

1570
01:18:00,640 --> 01:18:04,600
For the most part, the mass 
burnings of people were soldiers

1571
01:18:04,600 --> 01:18:09,000
and people that fought back. 
It wasn't just a military 

1572
01:18:09,000 --> 01:18:13,240
strategy employed by the 
Targaryens against other 

1573
01:18:13,240 --> 01:18:15,400
Targaryens. 
When the people became 

1574
01:18:15,400 --> 01:18:19,080
expendable, they're just a 
resource to use again for a 

1575
01:18:19,080 --> 01:18:21,960
family struggle. 
That's a lot worse. 

1576
01:18:21,960 --> 01:18:23,040
It's just a whole different 
look. 

1577
01:18:23,040 --> 01:18:27,640
It's just the, the, the loyalty,
the waning loyalty the 

1578
01:18:27,640 --> 01:18:31,040
Targaryens had was plummeting, 
right? 

1579
01:18:31,040 --> 01:18:34,240
It was, it was waning faster. 
And the IT was even more about 

1580
01:18:34,240 --> 01:18:36,960
fear and keeping them in line 
than it ever was. 

1581
01:18:36,960 --> 01:18:38,920
And then all of a sudden the 
biggest tool to keep people in 

1582
01:18:38,920 --> 01:18:41,760
line is gone. 
Now what if you're the faceless 

1583
01:18:41,760 --> 01:18:46,200
man, right, The faceless man, 
they're obviously anti dragon 

1584
01:18:46,200 --> 01:18:48,520
dragon Lord. 
They didn't kill the Targaryens.

1585
01:18:48,520 --> 01:18:51,040
They've said, OK, well, we blew 
up Valyria, probably. 

1586
01:18:51,040 --> 01:18:54,040
Let's operate on the thinking 
that they did that they that 

1587
01:18:54,040 --> 01:18:58,640
they assassinated sorcerers and 
caused the doom, but they didn't

1588
01:18:58,640 --> 01:19:00,120
kill the Targaryen. 
They said OK, that's fine. 

1589
01:19:00,120 --> 01:19:01,800
We don't care about them. 
Just leave that alone. 

1590
01:19:01,800 --> 01:19:03,960
They're not they're in Westeros 
for whatever reason. 

1591
01:19:03,960 --> 01:19:07,240
That didn't matter to them. 
If you're a faceless man, you 

1592
01:19:07,240 --> 01:19:08,560
saw the worst thing that could 
happen. 

1593
01:19:08,680 --> 01:19:11,360
You saw that what happened when 
there was a Valyria? 

1594
01:19:11,360 --> 01:19:14,480
You're like, OK, the world where
Valyria existed and used the 

1595
01:19:14,480 --> 01:19:17,760
power of Dragons not just on one
nation but on half the known 

1596
01:19:17,760 --> 01:19:21,440
world or more. 
The real life equivalent is like

1597
01:19:22,360 --> 01:19:26,520
you're an anti nuclear activist 
with a chance to actually wipe 

1598
01:19:26,520 --> 01:19:28,640
out all the nukes on the planet.
It's like, you know, if we do 

1599
01:19:28,640 --> 01:19:30,600
this, there won't be any new. 
It won't just be that. 

1600
01:19:31,240 --> 01:19:34,160
It won't just be like we've 
encouraged people not to use 

1601
01:19:34,160 --> 01:19:35,600
their nukes. 
You know, they'd literally be 

1602
01:19:35,600 --> 01:19:36,680
gone. 
Imagine that. 

1603
01:19:36,680 --> 01:19:38,560
Just a blink of an eye, all the 
nukes are gone. 

1604
01:19:38,560 --> 01:19:41,720
And not just that they're gone. 
The means to make more, like the

1605
01:19:41,720 --> 01:19:43,200
knowledge to make more is lost 
too. 

1606
01:19:43,200 --> 01:19:44,560
It's like, you know, how did we 
do that? 

1607
01:19:44,560 --> 01:19:46,880
I don't know how we did that. 
Just like this, you don't know 

1608
01:19:46,880 --> 01:19:49,200
how to handle Dragons anymore 
because all the people that knew

1609
01:19:49,200 --> 01:19:50,440
how to do that, they're gone 
too. 

1610
01:19:51,280 --> 01:19:53,600
So if you're the maestros, 
Marwin makes this seem sinister.

1611
01:19:53,640 --> 01:19:55,760
It's like, oh, the world the 
Citadel's building without 

1612
01:19:55,760 --> 01:19:57,800
Dragons. 
Oh, you don't want to do blah, 

1613
01:19:57,800 --> 01:19:59,400
blah blah. 
He makes them seem evil. 

1614
01:20:00,000 --> 01:20:03,240
But bro, getting rid of the 
Dragons kind of seems pro human 

1615
01:20:03,240 --> 01:20:05,200
to me, right? 
I mean, I can see the good side 

1616
01:20:05,200 --> 01:20:07,880
of that pretty clearly. 
In fact, I'm not so sure I'm on 

1617
01:20:07,880 --> 01:20:11,040
your side, Marwin. 
I'm on his side in on in terms 

1618
01:20:11,040 --> 01:20:12,360
of believing some of his 
theories. 

1619
01:20:12,360 --> 01:20:13,720
But even that there's some 
problems. 

1620
01:20:13,880 --> 01:20:15,160
Let's get into that a little 
bit. 

1621
01:20:15,520 --> 01:20:17,720
I don't think Marwin wants to 
live in a world covered by 

1622
01:20:17,720 --> 01:20:20,160
darkness and ice. 
So he's also operating on well, 

1623
01:20:20,160 --> 01:20:22,320
we've got this whole ice and 
fire theory to deal with as 

1624
01:20:22,320 --> 01:20:23,760
well. 
This prophecy, you know, the 

1625
01:20:23,760 --> 01:20:26,360
Dragons being around. 
Maybe we have a good reason for 

1626
01:20:26,360 --> 01:20:28,680
that. 
He might be thinking those, 

1627
01:20:28,800 --> 01:20:30,960
those fools in the Citadel are 
trying to kill the Dragons. 

1628
01:20:31,080 --> 01:20:33,400
We need those Dragons to save 
the world. 

1629
01:20:33,800 --> 01:20:35,840
He might be thinking on a very 
high level here with that. 

1630
01:20:35,880 --> 01:20:40,080
I'm not positive of that, but 
giving him some credibility as 

1631
01:20:40,080 --> 01:20:43,640
I'm criticizing him, I think is 
is worthy because I don't want 

1632
01:20:43,640 --> 01:20:47,560
to push back entirely. 
Now people in the Citadel, if 

1633
01:20:47,560 --> 01:20:49,880
what they're asking for is, hey,
we want merit and ideas and 

1634
01:20:49,880 --> 01:20:52,160
quality to rule, not who rides 
the biggest dragon. 

1635
01:20:52,160 --> 01:20:53,840
We don't want that to be who 
rules society. 

1636
01:20:53,840 --> 01:20:56,200
We want or which side of the 
family rules the biggest dragon.

1637
01:20:56,200 --> 01:20:59,000
So that that's why I'm like, 
yeah, Marwin, maybe see that 

1638
01:20:59,000 --> 01:21:03,120
side of it and be be 
understanding of why some good 

1639
01:21:03,120 --> 01:21:04,680
sides to get rid of the Dragons 
here. 

1640
01:21:05,000 --> 01:21:07,600
And if it's for other reasons, 
maybe you should be more clear 

1641
01:21:07,600 --> 01:21:10,520
about that now. 
I think the Faith gained an 

1642
01:21:10,520 --> 01:21:15,520
awful lot by the loss of Dragons
'cause they were the biggest 

1643
01:21:16,200 --> 01:21:19,160
unearthly power in Westeros 
before the Dragons, and then the

1644
01:21:19,160 --> 01:21:22,640
Dragons kind of something didn't
replace them but kind of 

1645
01:21:23,200 --> 01:21:24,680
overtook them. 
Right? 

1646
01:21:24,920 --> 01:21:27,840
Aegon adopted the Seven because 
they're so powerful. 

1647
01:21:27,840 --> 01:21:31,280
He wanted to ease the transition
to his rule. 

1648
01:21:31,960 --> 01:21:34,040
Now the High Septon definitely 
wields more power in a 

1649
01:21:34,040 --> 01:21:35,880
dragonless Westeros than in one 
with. 

1650
01:21:36,280 --> 01:21:39,480
That doesn't mean it's every 
High Septon is the same. 

1651
01:21:39,480 --> 01:21:43,200
Of course, some of them are 
weaker, but the High Septon had 

1652
01:21:43,200 --> 01:21:45,920
to watch what he said. 
Remember the High Septon when 

1653
01:21:45,960 --> 01:21:48,760
Visenya and Megor that that 
there's a High Septon that was 

1654
01:21:48,760 --> 01:21:51,240
mysteriously found dead the next
day, and the new High Septon was

1655
01:21:51,240 --> 01:21:53,360
all about accepting the 
Targaryens. 

1656
01:21:53,760 --> 01:21:55,560
So that tells you a lot right 
there. 

1657
01:21:56,080 --> 01:21:58,480
You got to be careful what you 
say when you're the High Septon,

1658
01:21:58,560 --> 01:22:02,040
when you're a commoner, period, 
anywhere in between. 

1659
01:22:02,040 --> 01:22:04,120
You have more leeway when you're
the High Septon, even though 

1660
01:22:04,120 --> 01:22:05,880
your words carry farther and you
have more power. 

1661
01:22:05,880 --> 01:22:07,440
But that's part of why, because 
you have more power. 

1662
01:22:07,440 --> 01:22:09,760
You can't just kill the High 
Septon, although you can't. 

1663
01:22:09,760 --> 01:22:10,920
You just have to be careful 
about it. 

1664
01:22:11,440 --> 01:22:14,000
But if we're all being careful 
about what we say because 

1665
01:22:14,000 --> 01:22:16,920
Dragons exist, well, if the 
Dragons don't exist any more 

1666
01:22:16,920 --> 01:22:19,280
than the High Septon and the 
rest of us can be a little less 

1667
01:22:19,280 --> 01:22:22,400
careful what we say, Targaryens 
can't quite easily push back. 

1668
01:22:22,600 --> 01:22:25,920
Mae Gore can't just mount his 
dragon, fly it towards Old Town,

1669
01:22:25,920 --> 01:22:27,920
and they go, never mind, never 
mind, never mind, please stop, 

1670
01:22:27,920 --> 01:22:29,160
please stop. 
Don't, don't, don't. 

1671
01:22:29,720 --> 01:22:32,280
There's no equivalent. 
They go, what do we send a Raven

1672
01:22:32,280 --> 01:22:34,400
and say stop, or we'll send an 
army. 

1673
01:22:34,400 --> 01:22:36,240
They say they send an army. 
We might be. 

1674
01:22:36,240 --> 01:22:38,400
We could probably beat that army
and maybe a lot of other people 

1675
01:22:38,400 --> 01:22:41,480
will join us. 
It really is a massive, massive 

1676
01:22:41,480 --> 01:22:44,760
difference. 
Now, Nina says maybe this is 

1677
01:22:44,760 --> 01:22:47,280
maybe I'm taking this point a 
little too far because there 

1678
01:22:47,280 --> 01:22:51,960
isn't any obvious leap forwards 
by the faith in terms of power. 

1679
01:22:51,960 --> 01:22:53,880
I think maybe that I think, I 
think she's right. 

1680
01:22:53,880 --> 01:22:56,280
The power that they gain is more
social and soft. 

1681
01:22:56,520 --> 01:22:59,320
It is a soft power they gain. 
They don't suddenly have armies 

1682
01:22:59,320 --> 01:23:02,000
marching on their side. 
It's just they get, they have 

1683
01:23:02,000 --> 01:23:05,080
more leeway and they may have 
more leeway than anybody else to

1684
01:23:05,080 --> 01:23:09,160
say things because they 
represent the gods. 

1685
01:23:09,160 --> 01:23:11,680
And that's not something you 
argue against lightly, even when

1686
01:23:11,680 --> 01:23:14,720
you're a Targaryen. 
It's just that with the Doctrine

1687
01:23:14,720 --> 01:23:18,080
of Exceptionalism powered by 
Dragons, even the Faith didn't 

1688
01:23:18,080 --> 01:23:20,000
want to argue against them 
because their lives were at 

1689
01:23:20,000 --> 01:23:23,440
risk. 
You can threaten the people who 

1690
01:23:23,440 --> 01:23:27,680
have the mouth to say be afraid 
of these people or don't, or 

1691
01:23:27,800 --> 01:23:29,400
think of them as abominations or
don't. 

1692
01:23:29,400 --> 01:23:32,600
The Faith was in lockstep, at 
least the leaders of it, during 

1693
01:23:32,600 --> 01:23:35,520
the when the Doctrine of 
Exceptionalism was in its 

1694
01:23:35,520 --> 01:23:37,560
heyday. 
But everybody forgot about that 

1695
01:23:37,560 --> 01:23:40,240
book, that pamphlet, whatever 
you call it, when the Dragons 

1696
01:23:40,240 --> 01:23:42,480
were dead, because it was 
clearly backed by the force of 

1697
01:23:42,480 --> 01:23:45,040
the Dragons. 
And once that force was gone, 

1698
01:23:45,040 --> 01:23:47,600
well, then it really wasn't 
worth the paper it was printed 

1699
01:23:47,600 --> 01:23:51,120
on. 
I mean, Megor flew across the 

1700
01:23:51,120 --> 01:23:55,880
city and burned the Sept of 
Remembrance, and that was that. 

1701
01:23:55,880 --> 01:23:58,840
I mean, nothing like that is 
equivalent. 

1702
01:23:59,080 --> 01:24:02,640
Later, Jairus notably travelled 
with just Vermithor all the time

1703
01:24:02,640 --> 01:24:05,760
because he knew that was enough 
people would be like, yeah, I 

1704
01:24:05,760 --> 01:24:08,120
don't want to face that. 
And I know they got 15 more of 

1705
01:24:08,120 --> 01:24:10,720
those back at the Red Keep. 
So even if they think they could

1706
01:24:10,720 --> 01:24:12,840
be Vermithor, which they're 
probably weighing that and 

1707
01:24:12,840 --> 01:24:14,200
going, yeah, probably not 
actually. 

1708
01:24:14,200 --> 01:24:15,280
Then they got to fight more of 
them. 

1709
01:24:15,280 --> 01:24:17,320
Yeah. 
So it's it's such an easy like, 

1710
01:24:17,320 --> 01:24:20,880
Yep, we're not doing that. 
Once the Dragons are gone, not 

1711
01:24:20,880 --> 01:24:24,160
only do you have people thinking
maybe we can beat them, but you 

1712
01:24:24,160 --> 01:24:27,680
have peaceful people knowing 
that the non peaceful people are

1713
01:24:27,680 --> 01:24:29,520
thinking about challenging who's
at the top. 

1714
01:24:30,280 --> 01:24:31,600
And so this is where I land on 
it. 

1715
01:24:31,600 --> 01:24:34,480
Nina points out that yeah, some 
of the some of the Lords 

1716
01:24:34,480 --> 01:24:35,920
actually gain more power than 
the seven. 

1717
01:24:35,920 --> 01:24:38,080
They're the ones that actually 
have the armies which are now no

1718
01:24:38,080 --> 01:24:41,960
longer threatened by Dragons. 
Whereas the faith doesn't really

1719
01:24:41,960 --> 01:24:43,720
have that because they'd already
lost the Faith militant. 

1720
01:24:43,720 --> 01:24:44,720
The Faith Middle was already 
gone. 

1721
01:24:44,720 --> 01:24:46,440
So it'd be one thing if they 
were still around. 

1722
01:24:46,440 --> 01:24:47,760
So Nina makes a great point 
there. 

1723
01:24:47,880 --> 01:24:51,320
However, I would drill this down
one step farther and say it's 

1724
01:24:51,320 --> 01:24:53,720
the most powerful houses that 
gain the most, and that in some 

1725
01:24:53,720 --> 01:24:56,280
ways that's very straightforward
thing to say, but it's the 

1726
01:24:56,280 --> 01:25:01,120
weaker houses that benefited 
from Targaryen rule because 

1727
01:25:01,720 --> 01:25:04,160
they're safe. 
Because if anyone comes and 

1728
01:25:04,160 --> 01:25:06,560
messes with their borders, it's 
as if they mess with the 

1729
01:25:06,560 --> 01:25:08,720
Targaryen borders. 
The Dragons come say hey, you 

1730
01:25:08,720 --> 01:25:10,800
broke the King's peace, face the
Dragons. 

1731
01:25:11,360 --> 01:25:15,480
Without the Dragons, the King's 
peace is not well. 

1732
01:25:15,480 --> 01:25:18,240
It literally lacks the teeth 
that it had before. 

1733
01:25:18,240 --> 01:25:20,200
It doesn't have the Dragon's 
teeth anymore backing it. 

1734
01:25:20,200 --> 01:25:23,160
So the lesser Lords all of a 
sudden start sweating and going 

1735
01:25:24,160 --> 01:25:26,240
Sir Eustis, right? 
He's like, they might take my 

1736
01:25:26,240 --> 01:25:29,400
land, they might demote me or I 
got to cut a deal to try to get 

1737
01:25:29,400 --> 01:25:32,560
my land back and stick sides 
with this rebel. 

1738
01:25:32,800 --> 01:25:36,200
You know, it's it's these houses
that are like, we're, we're on 

1739
01:25:36,200 --> 01:25:38,000
those, we're on the outs. 
We're we're losing our power. 

1740
01:25:38,000 --> 01:25:39,880
We haven't even existed in 
another few generations. 

1741
01:25:40,040 --> 01:25:42,880
They're the ones that are 
really, they relied on the 

1742
01:25:42,880 --> 01:25:46,080
Targaryens to keep them around. 
Now that protection is gone. 

1743
01:25:46,080 --> 01:25:48,280
So I think that's what it is. 
It's the rich get richer when 

1744
01:25:48,280 --> 01:25:51,320
the Dragons fell off, it's the 
rich to get richer except for 

1745
01:25:51,320 --> 01:25:55,080
the Targaryens themselves. 
It's everybody in the number two

1746
01:25:55,080 --> 01:25:59,400
slot is like the gap between 
Targaryen and Great Houses was 

1747
01:25:59,400 --> 01:26:02,360
massive when they had Dragons. 
The gap between Targaryen and 

1748
01:26:02,360 --> 01:26:05,080
great Houses, it's like you can 
see the difference. 

1749
01:26:05,080 --> 01:26:08,240
It's like a small step up. 
There's they only they, they can

1750
01:26:08,400 --> 01:26:10,160
only lean so much on their 
ancestry. 

1751
01:26:10,160 --> 01:26:13,640
They can only lean so much on. 
Well, possession is we have the 

1752
01:26:13,640 --> 01:26:19,120
throne now, so let's keep it. 
But no one's fooled anymore as 

1753
01:26:19,120 --> 01:26:21,000
to how hard it would be to take 
it from them. 

1754
01:26:21,040 --> 01:26:22,840
You know, they barely beat the 
black fires. 

1755
01:26:22,840 --> 01:26:25,800
That was obviously later than 
this. 

1756
01:26:25,800 --> 01:26:29,280
But the black fires would never 
have happened if the main house 

1757
01:26:29,280 --> 01:26:31,120
had Dragons and the black fires 
didn't. 

1758
01:26:31,480 --> 01:26:33,880
So, yeah, it, it gets a little 
complicated. 

1759
01:26:33,880 --> 01:26:36,600
But when you lay it all out like
that, I think it it starts to 

1760
01:26:36,600 --> 01:26:38,440
make a lot of sense. 
The the ones who were held in 

1761
01:26:38,440 --> 01:26:41,040
check the most by the Dragons 
are the ones that gained the 

1762
01:26:41,040 --> 01:26:44,440
most or stood to gain the most. 
It isn't necessarily the ones 

1763
01:26:44,440 --> 01:26:47,760
who exercised that power. 
For example, if the high septon 

1764
01:26:47,760 --> 01:26:50,840
in power at the time of the last
dragon dying was kind of a 

1765
01:26:50,840 --> 01:26:53,360
weakling, then maybe they 
wouldn't have taken so much 

1766
01:26:53,360 --> 01:26:55,520
advantage. 
But maybe he was kind of a 

1767
01:26:55,520 --> 01:26:56,960
firebrand. 
Maybe he was one of the maybe. 

1768
01:26:56,960 --> 01:26:59,320
Maybe he was one of those guys 
that was held in check by common

1769
01:26:59,320 --> 01:27:02,160
sense and realized without the 
dragon said, hey, he could start

1770
01:27:02,160 --> 01:27:03,960
pushing. 
He could start at least see 

1771
01:27:03,960 --> 01:27:06,800
where the new boundary is. 
What can I get away with now? 

1772
01:27:06,800 --> 01:27:09,800
What, will Aegon the Third, a 
particularly kind of ass, do 

1773
01:27:09,800 --> 01:27:11,680
what you want kind of king? 
Yeah. 

1774
01:27:11,680 --> 01:27:13,640
It's a new day. 
Not only are there no Dragons to

1775
01:27:13,640 --> 01:27:16,480
threaten, but the king on the 
throne at the time is kind of 

1776
01:27:17,680 --> 01:27:20,480
doesn't care. 
So any way you look at it, it's 

1777
01:27:20,480 --> 01:27:23,600
enormous loss of authority, of 
perceived authority, of military

1778
01:27:23,600 --> 01:27:27,680
strength, all this. 
And it happened gradually. 

1779
01:27:27,680 --> 01:27:30,640
That's part of what made it 
super interesting here, too, is 

1780
01:27:30,640 --> 01:27:32,880
it didn't just happen overnight.
You got these Dragons slowly 

1781
01:27:32,880 --> 01:27:35,120
dying out, maybe an adult dragon
here and there. 

1782
01:27:35,200 --> 01:27:36,760
Silver Wings apparently dead 
now. 

1783
01:27:37,320 --> 01:27:39,480
People aren't talking about the 
Cannibal anymore. 

1784
01:27:40,080 --> 01:27:42,040
The Dragons that are there are 
weaker. 

1785
01:27:42,040 --> 01:27:44,440
The idea that the Targaryens 
aren't what they were. 

1786
01:27:44,440 --> 01:27:47,280
It has a lot of time to set in. 
It isn't just a boom. 

1787
01:27:47,280 --> 01:27:50,160
We've got to figure out what all
this means overnight now. 

1788
01:27:50,440 --> 01:27:53,320
No, no, you got like 2 decades 
of thinking about it, of the 

1789
01:27:53,320 --> 01:27:56,960
whole society, of everyone in 
Westeros on different levels, 

1790
01:27:56,960 --> 01:27:59,160
whether you're poor, whether 
you're rich, whether you're 

1791
01:27:59,160 --> 01:28:02,680
noble, whether you're not. 
It's such a huge subject that 

1792
01:28:02,680 --> 01:28:04,760
everyone's going to be talking 
about or thinking about off and 

1793
01:28:04,760 --> 01:28:08,240
on for decades, and then it 
actually happens and that fires 

1794
01:28:08,240 --> 01:28:10,640
up the conversations against. 
Now this day has come. 

1795
01:28:11,160 --> 01:28:13,600
The Dragons are gone. 
Folks. 

1796
01:28:13,600 --> 01:28:15,400
We definitely rely on your 
support. 

1797
01:28:15,400 --> 01:28:18,960
We have been doing this for over
10 years, me and Ashaya, and 

1798
01:28:19,000 --> 01:28:24,080
well, we've loved watching this 
fandom grow and change and do 

1799
01:28:24,080 --> 01:28:27,600
lots of different things, bring 
people in, encourage all sorts 

1800
01:28:27,600 --> 01:28:29,680
of creativity and imagination. 
Yeah. 

1801
01:28:29,680 --> 01:28:32,600
So we're so happy to be here. 
And we were. 

1802
01:28:32,600 --> 01:28:33,880
Like I said, we rely on your 
support. 

1803
01:28:33,880 --> 01:28:34,960
You can do that a number of 
ways. 

1804
01:28:34,960 --> 01:28:37,800
Go to our website, 
historyofwesteros.com, and 

1805
01:28:37,800 --> 01:28:40,760
there's a bevy of options. 
You can go to Patreon through 

1806
01:28:40,760 --> 01:28:44,200
our website and sign up there, 
get free, get bonus episodes and

1807
01:28:44,200 --> 01:28:47,560
voting access and these parallel
lives that we're about to start 

1808
01:28:47,560 --> 01:28:49,160
reposting again and making new 
ones up. 

1809
01:28:49,320 --> 01:28:55,040
Or you can go to Amazon and shop
at Amazon, spend the same amount

1810
01:28:55,040 --> 01:28:57,640
you would have anyway. 
Do some get get yourself Amazon 

1811
01:28:57,640 --> 01:28:59,920
prime or buy some audio books 
through audible. 

1812
01:28:59,920 --> 01:29:02,720
That's an Amazon company you get
we we have a lot of great book 

1813
01:29:02,720 --> 01:29:05,760
recommendations. 
The new expanse series, sorry, 

1814
01:29:05,800 --> 01:29:09,080
not new expanse series series by
the authors of the expanse is 

1815
01:29:09,080 --> 01:29:10,480
now just dropped its second 
book. 

1816
01:29:10,920 --> 01:29:13,480
It's called the faith of beasts.
That series is called the 

1817
01:29:13,480 --> 01:29:15,440
captives war. 
First book is called Mercy of 

1818
01:29:15,440 --> 01:29:19,280
Gods and there's a a short story
called Live Suit Me and Shaya 

1819
01:29:19,280 --> 01:29:20,520
and Bran the Builder are all 
reading it. 

1820
01:29:20,520 --> 01:29:22,360
We love it. 
A lot of you out there are 

1821
01:29:22,360 --> 01:29:24,280
reading it as well. 
If you haven't picked it up, 

1822
01:29:24,280 --> 01:29:27,120
it's really, really fun, really 
excellent, really cool to talk 

1823
01:29:27,120 --> 01:29:28,240
about a lot of things to 
theorize. 

1824
01:29:28,640 --> 01:29:30,480
So that's just one of many ways 
you can support us. 

1825
01:29:30,480 --> 01:29:32,400
You can go get yourself a copy 
of that book or just do your 

1826
01:29:32,400 --> 01:29:35,120
regular Amazon shopping and it 
helps us out without getting you

1827
01:29:35,120 --> 01:29:37,200
charged anymore. 
And I've only named a few of the

1828
01:29:37,200 --> 01:29:39,120
ways that you can support us 
through our website. 

1829
01:29:39,120 --> 01:29:42,120
Go there, pick whichever one 
works best for you are multiple 

1830
01:29:42,120 --> 01:29:44,040
ones, and we'll keep doing what 
we're doing. 

1831
01:29:44,040 --> 01:29:46,720
We'll keep bringing these almost
every week, bringing you news 

1832
01:29:46,880 --> 01:29:50,920
theories, deep dives, puns, all 
the above. 

1833
01:29:52,600 --> 01:29:58,280
The dragonless dragonlords, the 
transition from dragonlords to 

1834
01:29:58,360 --> 01:30:02,680
Royals with dragon imagery. 
We've talked about it in a 

1835
01:30:02,680 --> 01:30:05,440
variety of ways, from different 
kings, different reigns. 

1836
01:30:05,720 --> 01:30:08,360
It's usually a particular 
Targaryen reign that we look at 

1837
01:30:08,360 --> 01:30:10,600
it for. 
We're kind of doing that here as

1838
01:30:10,600 --> 01:30:13,320
well. 
But if you look forward, Darren,

1839
01:30:13,320 --> 01:30:15,800
the first was the first king 
after the end of the Dragons, 

1840
01:30:15,800 --> 01:30:18,480
the first new king. 
Once the Dragons died out, he 

1841
01:30:18,480 --> 01:30:20,400
went aggro. 
He was like, it's almost as if 

1842
01:30:20,400 --> 01:30:24,440
he wanted to show everybody that
you can't push the Targaryens 

1843
01:30:24,440 --> 01:30:26,000
around, that there's still a 
force to be reckoned with. 

1844
01:30:26,560 --> 01:30:29,480
He didn't think of himself as a 
dragon in the sense that like 

1845
01:30:29,480 --> 01:30:31,680
Aryan Targaryen did. 
At least we don't think so. 

1846
01:30:31,880 --> 01:30:36,000
But he did say that in a 
metaphorical way to prove it to 

1847
01:30:37,120 --> 01:30:41,440
as a measure of strength. 
Baylor went was the next was the

1848
01:30:41,440 --> 01:30:43,120
next one, right? 
Four years after Darren, we got 

1849
01:30:43,120 --> 01:30:44,840
Baylor the blessed. 
He was super faithful. 

1850
01:30:45,120 --> 01:30:48,160
And then two reigns later, after
Viserys and Aegon the 4th, we 

1851
01:30:48,160 --> 01:30:50,880
got Darren the second, who was 
also very faithful. 

1852
01:30:51,440 --> 01:30:55,400
Les zealots, zealotus, but very 
much on the side of the face. 

1853
01:30:55,400 --> 01:30:58,400
You can see why I made this 
point about things. 

1854
01:30:58,400 --> 01:31:01,000
A lot of power shifting towards 
the faith because the Targaryens

1855
01:31:01,000 --> 01:31:04,160
were starting to do that. 
They were shifting a lot of 

1856
01:31:04,160 --> 01:31:08,720
their hey, we're the arbiters of
the faithful and we have Dragons

1857
01:31:08,720 --> 01:31:11,080
as a symbol, but we don't have 
Dragons, but we still have the 

1858
01:31:11,080 --> 01:31:13,800
faith. 
Now Igon the 4th didn't really 

1859
01:31:13,800 --> 01:31:15,440
care all that much. 
He's an example of someone that 

1860
01:31:16,000 --> 01:31:19,000
just did his thing, used power 
to gratify himself. 

1861
01:31:19,000 --> 01:31:21,760
So he kind of is a exception in 
that sense. 

1862
01:31:21,760 --> 01:31:25,560
But Aegon the third, in many 
ways, he was the perfect king 

1863
01:31:25,560 --> 01:31:30,360
for this transition because he 
wasn't going to be the kind of 

1864
01:31:30,360 --> 01:31:32,920
guy that was really worried 
about it. 

1865
01:31:32,920 --> 01:31:35,920
He wasn't like, Oh no, we're we 
don't have Dragons anymore, what

1866
01:31:35,920 --> 01:31:37,960
will we do? 
He did eventually see the 

1867
01:31:37,960 --> 01:31:41,080
problem, but it wasn't something
that I don't know, made him 

1868
01:31:41,080 --> 01:31:44,240
paranoid or made him panic. 
He, he was at, at first, 

1869
01:31:44,520 --> 01:31:47,800
arguably he wasn't sad to see 
them go at all, even though he 

1870
01:31:47,800 --> 01:31:50,640
did later in his reign, near the
end of his reign, apparently try

1871
01:31:50,640 --> 01:31:54,000
to bring them back using magic. 
We'll talk about that in a 

1872
01:31:54,000 --> 01:31:58,840
minute. 
He wasn't scrambling to save 

1873
01:31:58,840 --> 01:32:02,640
them and projecting this fear of
what is our dynasty going to do 

1874
01:32:02,640 --> 01:32:05,240
without them. 
He kind of just, you know, it's,

1875
01:32:05,640 --> 01:32:07,320
it's not great, but it's 
happening. 

1876
01:32:08,000 --> 01:32:12,400
So had he projected that fear, 
it might have projected fear on 

1877
01:32:12,400 --> 01:32:14,600
to other people, the same kind 
of peaceful people I was 

1878
01:32:14,600 --> 01:32:17,160
referring to earlier, who 
they're not going to start 

1879
01:32:17,160 --> 01:32:21,000
anything, but they recognize the
state of affairs has shifted. 

1880
01:32:21,280 --> 01:32:26,040
That in a world without Dragons,
you might have a lot more high 

1881
01:32:26,040 --> 01:32:29,840
Lords starting wars because 
they're no longer held in check 

1882
01:32:29,840 --> 01:32:33,200
by gigantic, gigantic flying 
fire lizards. 

1883
01:32:33,560 --> 01:32:36,120
So it's the elephant in the room
or the elephant dragon in the 

1884
01:32:36,120 --> 01:32:38,640
room. 
How do you talk about this? 

1885
01:32:38,640 --> 01:32:40,440
You don't talk about it in front
of Targaryens. 

1886
01:32:40,440 --> 01:32:42,800
I think that's like, because 
that's treasonous, almost like 

1887
01:32:42,800 --> 01:32:45,560
this borderline treason. 
I mean, think about Tanzel and 

1888
01:32:45,560 --> 01:32:49,280
her puppets. 
Even Baylor Brake Spear pointed 

1889
01:32:49,280 --> 01:32:51,560
out that yeah, that is 
borderline treasonous. 

1890
01:32:51,560 --> 01:32:54,800
You know, I don't agree with 
breaking her hand and destroying

1891
01:32:54,800 --> 01:32:57,640
all her stuff. 
But Aryan, from a legal 

1892
01:32:57,640 --> 01:33:00,960
perspective, it's hard to 
completely push back against 

1893
01:33:00,960 --> 01:33:03,120
what he what his his conclusion 
was there. 

1894
01:33:03,400 --> 01:33:07,680
So think about it that in that 
sense, like, who's going to 

1895
01:33:07,680 --> 01:33:09,520
bring that up? 
Who's going to bring up 

1896
01:33:09,520 --> 01:33:11,040
Targaryen? 
Like, is that, is that 

1897
01:33:11,040 --> 01:33:12,480
treasonous? 
Are you going to have puppet 

1898
01:33:12,480 --> 01:33:14,160
shows about Dragons dying? 
I don't think so. 

1899
01:33:14,160 --> 01:33:16,200
That'd be way more pervasive in 
this era. 

1900
01:33:16,440 --> 01:33:21,160
I mean, Sir Arlen, you know, 
would probably have told told 

1901
01:33:21,160 --> 01:33:22,440
you something like this. 
Like, yeah, you don't. 

1902
01:33:23,320 --> 01:33:26,840
You don't do that. 
You don't have imagery of dead 

1903
01:33:26,840 --> 01:33:30,400
Dragons, especially at a 
sensitive time when the Dragons 

1904
01:33:30,400 --> 01:33:31,400
are dying out. 
Right. 

1905
01:33:31,400 --> 01:33:34,920
Yeah. 
So kind of get that whoever 

1906
01:33:34,920 --> 01:33:37,480
Master of Whispers was for Aegon
the Third would be hearing a lot

1907
01:33:37,480 --> 01:33:40,080
of stuff that it's like, yeah, 
they're again, they're talking 

1908
01:33:40,080 --> 01:33:42,960
about those Dragons dying out. 
I don't know that it amounts to 

1909
01:33:42,960 --> 01:33:46,280
treason, but it isn't that where
this leads next? 

1910
01:33:46,280 --> 01:33:48,280
Isn't that where they when they 
start realizing that we're not 

1911
01:33:48,280 --> 01:33:50,120
holding them in check, what 
comes next? 

1912
01:33:50,120 --> 01:33:53,480
Are they going to not be in 
check and come for us? 

1913
01:33:54,360 --> 01:33:56,520
Yeah, there might be a lot of 
worry in the Red Keep, 

1914
01:33:57,240 --> 01:33:59,840
especially because they have a 
king that maybe doesn't worry 

1915
01:33:59,840 --> 01:34:02,200
along with them. 
He's like, yeah, you guys are 

1916
01:34:02,200 --> 01:34:02,960
worried. 
I don't care. 

1917
01:34:04,640 --> 01:34:07,800
So it's actually believable we 
have a king who sort of treats 

1918
01:34:07,800 --> 01:34:09,720
it like sour grapes, at least 
for a while. 

1919
01:34:09,720 --> 01:34:12,480
Maybe when he was younger. 
And again, that's why he wasn't 

1920
01:34:12,480 --> 01:34:15,440
all about restoring the dragon 
lore, finding new sources of 

1921
01:34:15,440 --> 01:34:18,480
information for the things they 
had lost, dragon keepers, 

1922
01:34:18,480 --> 01:34:20,400
etcetera. 
Just his heritage. 

1923
01:34:20,440 --> 01:34:23,960
He was fine to let it go, even 
if he regretted it later. 

1924
01:34:24,200 --> 01:34:28,280
And but also Aegon the Third, it
represents a broken link to the 

1925
01:34:28,280 --> 01:34:31,160
past, just as the dragon 
keepers, maybe so many of them 

1926
01:34:31,160 --> 01:34:34,040
dying, if not all of them, they 
weren't able to pass their 

1927
01:34:34,040 --> 01:34:35,920
knowledge on to the next 
generation of dragon keepers. 

1928
01:34:35,920 --> 01:34:39,160
Aegon the Third was not really 
raised by his family. 

1929
01:34:39,720 --> 01:34:41,720
He was raised during a civil 
conflict. 

1930
01:34:42,000 --> 01:34:45,040
By and by the time that civil 
conflict was over, his parents 

1931
01:34:45,040 --> 01:34:46,960
were dead and he wasn't very 
old. 

1932
01:34:47,400 --> 01:34:50,080
He didn't have uncles, he'd have
aunts like that. 

1933
01:34:50,080 --> 01:34:54,240
The prior Targaryen kings and 
Queens had all of that they had.

1934
01:34:54,240 --> 01:34:56,160
They were basically nuclear 
family. 

1935
01:34:56,800 --> 01:35:02,400
Were the 2 best rulers. 
Jairus and Alison had a whole 

1936
01:35:02,400 --> 01:35:05,000
lot of that. 
They had a very active mother. 

1937
01:35:05,000 --> 01:35:09,120
Alyssa they had, I mean they had
Megor but that wasn't good, but 

1938
01:35:09,120 --> 01:35:12,160
they had other siblings who and 
then their own children. 

1939
01:35:12,160 --> 01:35:14,800
I mean it was just a big bunch 
of Targaryens and they got to 

1940
01:35:14,800 --> 01:35:18,240
confer with each other and the 
quantity of them probably made 

1941
01:35:18,240 --> 01:35:21,720
them all feel safer as a group, 
especially because so many of 

1942
01:35:21,760 --> 01:35:23,560
them had Dragons. 
And if we move on to the 

1943
01:35:23,560 --> 01:35:27,520
supernatural topic Aegon prior 
to Aegon the Third, we can kind 

1944
01:35:27,520 --> 01:35:30,040
of assume even if the show 
handled it differently. 

1945
01:35:30,120 --> 01:35:32,520
I think the show probably got 
most of Got the gist of it 

1946
01:35:32,520 --> 01:35:34,560
right. 
Which is to say Aegon had a 

1947
01:35:34,560 --> 01:35:38,640
dream of some kind about the 
others or something like that. 

1948
01:35:39,360 --> 01:35:42,520
Aegon the First, That knowledge 
was passed down through the 

1949
01:35:42,520 --> 01:35:45,480
other kings. 
Maybe it's skipped over Magor, 

1950
01:35:46,040 --> 01:35:49,040
maybe not. 
Either way, Viserys the First 

1951
01:35:49,040 --> 01:35:52,720
probably knew it his he reigned 
over a long peaceful time. 

1952
01:35:52,760 --> 01:35:56,200
Any of his very likely Jahari's 
told him before he passed things

1953
01:35:56,200 --> 01:35:58,160
like that. 
However, I don't know that Aegon

1954
01:35:58,160 --> 01:36:00,280
the Third was ever told by 
Rainier, certainly not by Damon.

1955
01:36:00,280 --> 01:36:03,440
He was too young, right? 
Rainier probably learned it, but

1956
01:36:03,440 --> 01:36:04,640
when would she have passed it 
on? 

1957
01:36:04,640 --> 01:36:07,200
She might have told she told 
Jason the show probably would 

1958
01:36:07,200 --> 01:36:12,120
have told him in in the books. 
But then after that, she wasn't 

1959
01:36:12,120 --> 01:36:14,560
expecting Aegon to inherit. 
And this is 1 by 1. 

1960
01:36:15,000 --> 01:36:17,040
These drag it. 
These her children die. 

1961
01:36:17,560 --> 01:36:20,080
And we mostly focused on it from
that angle, as from Rainier's 

1962
01:36:20,080 --> 01:36:23,000
angle. 
But that was Aegon the Third's 

1963
01:36:23,000 --> 01:36:25,560
three older brothers. 
They all died on their Dragons. 

1964
01:36:25,560 --> 01:36:27,680
Well, Joffrey died on someone 
else's dragon. 

1965
01:36:27,680 --> 01:36:32,280
But again, it isn't just him 
seeing his mom's get eaten by a 

1966
01:36:32,280 --> 01:36:34,200
dragon. 
It's his brothers and his dad 

1967
01:36:34,200 --> 01:36:39,720
all died on Dragons. 
All of them literally so bad. 

1968
01:36:40,920 --> 01:36:44,360
So not only did he not get the 
lessons that pretty much all 

1969
01:36:44,360 --> 01:36:47,320
Targaryen kings and Queens and 
Princess and Princess has gotten

1970
01:36:47,320 --> 01:36:50,640
just by living amongst the 
family that had all these shared

1971
01:36:50,640 --> 01:36:54,960
knowledge and that was just 
gone, he was turned off on it. 

1972
01:36:54,960 --> 01:36:57,720
He didn't want to know. 
A lot of this stuff, probably, 

1973
01:36:57,720 --> 01:37:00,320
like learning about Dragons is 
probably just puts him in a bad 

1974
01:37:00,320 --> 01:37:03,320
mood, you know, probably recalls
his trauma. 

1975
01:37:03,320 --> 01:37:04,560
Why would he want to learn about
that? 

1976
01:37:04,960 --> 01:37:06,760
And there's little reason to 
think, say, Aegon the Second 

1977
01:37:06,800 --> 01:37:08,960
knew anything about that. 
Like, when would Viserys have 

1978
01:37:08,960 --> 01:37:09,840
told him? 
Yeah. 

1979
01:37:09,840 --> 01:37:12,800
Like in the show, Allison kind 
of tries to tell him. 

1980
01:37:12,800 --> 01:37:14,200
And he's like, I don't even know
you're talking about. 

1981
01:37:14,200 --> 01:37:15,880
I don't think that happens in 
the books anyway. 

1982
01:37:16,840 --> 01:37:19,440
Either way that line is broken 
because Aegon third dies and you

1983
01:37:19,440 --> 01:37:21,840
know he doesn't. 
His line doesn't continue anyway

1984
01:37:21,840 --> 01:37:24,720
so it's irrelevant even if it 
did happen that way in the books

1985
01:37:24,720 --> 01:37:27,760
for the most part. 
So that is a big part of this 

1986
01:37:27,760 --> 01:37:29,560
too. 
The whole why does it matter if 

1987
01:37:29,560 --> 01:37:31,480
the Dragons died out in terms of
that? 

1988
01:37:31,480 --> 01:37:34,320
Like the Targaryens didn't 
spread that news, but of the 

1989
01:37:34,320 --> 01:37:38,520
people who knew, if any of them 
did, that is devastating. 

1990
01:37:38,720 --> 01:37:42,600
That's why I think they looked 
so hard for evidence that the 

1991
01:37:42,600 --> 01:37:44,800
Dragons would come back, not 
just because it restores their 

1992
01:37:44,800 --> 01:37:49,040
power, although that would be 
relevant, but because they might

1993
01:37:49,040 --> 01:37:52,000
know that the world is going to 
end if the Dragons don't come 

1994
01:37:52,000 --> 01:37:55,400
back. 
That family secret, at least 

1995
01:37:55,400 --> 01:37:58,440
that conclusion might have 
passed down, if not all the 

1996
01:37:58,440 --> 01:38:00,240
details. 
And they're not just talking 

1997
01:38:00,240 --> 01:38:02,360
about Aegon's dream. 
The idea that target a lot of 

1998
01:38:02,360 --> 01:38:04,480
Targaryens are dreamers. 
That's the kind of thing that 

1999
01:38:04,480 --> 01:38:08,000
would be discussed by Targaryens
in a family situation, in a 

2000
01:38:08,000 --> 01:38:09,240
family setting. 
You know, like, yeah, a lot of 

2001
01:38:09,240 --> 01:38:11,440
us have prophetic dreams. 
That happens sometimes. 

2002
01:38:12,160 --> 01:38:14,320
Aegon wouldn't have learned 
about that much either because 

2003
01:38:14,320 --> 01:38:16,520
again, he's too young. 
When would that come up? 

2004
01:38:16,600 --> 01:38:18,960
Right, Like during the civil war
when everyone's dying? 

2005
01:38:18,960 --> 01:38:21,080
Well, let me pull you aside and 
have a conversation with you 

2006
01:38:21,080 --> 01:38:23,920
about dreams. 
Dreams weren't actually that big

2007
01:38:23,920 --> 01:38:25,400
of a deal during the Dance, 
right? 

2008
01:38:25,520 --> 01:38:28,840
Not in terms of the Targaryens 
taking action or not. 

2009
01:38:29,480 --> 01:38:32,120
It's those, those were more a 
big deal at other times. 

2010
01:38:32,640 --> 01:38:36,760
The Dragons also were sometimes 
used as a way to, you know, show

2011
01:38:36,760 --> 01:38:38,840
Targaryen strength, kind of an 
intimidate the commoner, show 

2012
01:38:38,840 --> 01:38:41,080
how strong they are. 
Aegon didn't like doing that 

2013
01:38:41,080 --> 01:38:42,720
anyway. 
Even if he had Dragons, he 

2014
01:38:42,720 --> 01:38:44,280
probably wouldn't have done 
that. 

2015
01:38:44,280 --> 01:38:48,200
So he ended up kind of, like we 
said, like an Aegon the 5th, 

2016
01:38:48,360 --> 01:38:52,880
where he wanted the Dragons 
because of how strong they would

2017
01:38:52,880 --> 01:38:55,680
make him in the eyes of the 
nobility, not in terms of the 

2018
01:38:55,680 --> 01:38:58,240
entire realm because the 
commoners were already on his 

2019
01:38:58,240 --> 01:39:00,920
side. 
Makar an Aryan, those are 

2020
01:39:00,920 --> 01:39:03,080
examples of Targaryens who 
projected strength. 

2021
01:39:03,440 --> 01:39:06,360
One was the genuine strength, 
one was the toxic, bullying, 

2022
01:39:06,360 --> 01:39:09,440
insecure type. 
Either way, they're trying to 

2023
01:39:09,440 --> 01:39:15,760
sort of project themselves into 
the space where dragonic 

2024
01:39:15,760 --> 01:39:18,960
strength was projected before. 
Like, well, we can't show you 

2025
01:39:18,960 --> 01:39:21,440
all our strong Dragons, so we 
just show you how strong we are 

2026
01:39:21,440 --> 01:39:23,760
and you can fear that instead. 
That that was kind of make our 

2027
01:39:23,760 --> 01:39:26,000
thing was like, yeah, we can 
still be powerful war leaders 

2028
01:39:26,000 --> 01:39:28,680
and they'll respect us for that.
We don't have Dragons, but if 

2029
01:39:28,680 --> 01:39:31,440
we're really good at what we do,
no one's going to want to mess 

2030
01:39:31,440 --> 01:39:32,520
with us. 
That's the best we can do. 

2031
01:39:32,600 --> 01:39:36,080
That that made sense. 
Aryan just wasn't only got half 

2032
01:39:36,080 --> 01:39:38,920
the memo, right. 
And the ultimate example of this

2033
01:39:38,920 --> 01:39:41,360
was Darren the first, right? 
The minute he ascends to the 

2034
01:39:41,360 --> 01:39:43,840
throne, he's like, we're going 
to go to conquer. 

2035
01:39:43,840 --> 01:39:46,800
We're going to prove we're going
to do what Dragons do in human 

2036
01:39:46,800 --> 01:39:49,240
form. 
And this is the guy who grew up 

2037
01:39:49,240 --> 01:39:52,200
with that as a kid. 
Like, he's 8-9 years old. 

2038
01:39:52,200 --> 01:39:54,000
And everyone around him was 
talking about how the Dragons 

2039
01:39:54,000 --> 01:39:56,680
are gone, how the Targaryens are
weaker now. 

2040
01:39:56,680 --> 01:39:57,960
He's hearing it. 
He's hearing it. 

2041
01:39:58,000 --> 01:40:00,160
And his dad isn't doing much 
about it. 

2042
01:40:00,720 --> 01:40:03,880
You can kind of understand why 
he was just raring to go to 

2043
01:40:03,880 --> 01:40:07,040
prove otherwise. 
Like, oh, I'm, I grew up with 

2044
01:40:07,280 --> 01:40:09,440
Targaryens being talked about as
weak. 

2045
01:40:09,440 --> 01:40:11,400
And I am so ready to prove that 
wrong. 

2046
01:40:11,400 --> 01:40:13,960
I'm so ready to invade Dorn. 
This will prove it all. 

2047
01:40:14,200 --> 01:40:15,920
For a while it did, and then it 
didn't. 

2048
01:40:15,920 --> 01:40:17,720
And then it kind of backfired 
horribly. 

2049
01:40:17,960 --> 01:40:20,760
But he didn't live to see that 
because he was. 

2050
01:40:20,840 --> 01:40:23,000
Part of that backfiring was his 
assassination. 

2051
01:40:23,680 --> 01:40:26,280
Taking Dorn but not holding it. 
He kind of did prove it though, 

2052
01:40:26,280 --> 01:40:27,240
right? 
He kind of proved, yeah, we're 

2053
01:40:27,240 --> 01:40:29,160
Dragons. 
We took Dorn and couldn't hold 

2054
01:40:29,160 --> 01:40:31,960
it. 
That's exactly what the Dragons 

2055
01:40:31,960 --> 01:40:33,440
under House Targaryen did 
before. 

2056
01:40:33,600 --> 01:40:38,440
So yeah, dragonless but not 
eggless. 

2057
01:40:39,640 --> 01:40:42,800
Though the eggs went from 
infrequent to rare and the 

2058
01:40:42,800 --> 01:40:46,160
hatchlings to, well, I don't 
know, normal to weaker or rare 

2059
01:40:46,160 --> 01:40:47,880
or less frequent? 
I'm not sure exactly. 

2060
01:40:47,880 --> 01:40:50,920
There were still plenty of eggs.
And despite Egg on the 3rd's 

2061
01:40:50,920 --> 01:40:55,040
wariness around Dragons, the 
tradition of eggs and cradles 

2062
01:40:55,040 --> 01:40:57,960
continued for a little while. 
But here's where it stopped. 

2063
01:40:57,960 --> 01:40:59,400
And here's where there's other 
things going on. 

2064
01:40:59,600 --> 01:41:02,720
Let's also remember that when 
the Dance of the Dragons ended, 

2065
01:41:02,720 --> 01:41:05,560
it was a horrible winter that 
raged for several years past. 

2066
01:41:05,560 --> 01:41:08,840
So there are lots of problems in
the realm at this point that 

2067
01:41:08,840 --> 01:41:11,360
this anecdote we're about to 
read is 135. 

2068
01:41:11,360 --> 01:41:14,800
So we're on year 6 of winter at 
this point. 

2069
01:41:14,840 --> 01:41:17,000
Quote. 
The trouble might have ended 

2070
01:41:17,000 --> 01:41:21,960
there with talk, but soon 
thereafter a series of disasters

2071
01:41:21,960 --> 01:41:26,720
befell the realm and royal 
family, each following hard upon

2072
01:41:26,720 --> 01:41:30,840
the heels of the other until 
even men who mocked the gods 

2073
01:41:31,040 --> 01:41:35,720
like mushroom began to question 
whether the Seven had turned 

2074
01:41:35,720 --> 01:41:39,560
against House Targaryen and the 
Seven Kingdoms in their wrath. 

2075
01:41:39,840 --> 01:41:44,720
The first omen of the dark times
to come was seen on Drift Mark 

2076
01:41:45,120 --> 01:41:49,280
when the Dragon's Egg presented 
to Elena Valerian upon her 

2077
01:41:49,280 --> 01:41:54,080
birth, quickened and hatched, 
her parents pride and pleasure 

2078
01:41:54,400 --> 01:41:58,080
quickly turned to ash. 
However, the dragon that 

2079
01:41:58,080 --> 01:42:02,720
wriggled from the egg was a 
monstrosity, A wingless worm, 

2080
01:42:03,000 --> 01:42:07,800
maggot, white and blind. 
Within moments of hatching, the 

2081
01:42:07,800 --> 01:42:12,000
creature turned upon the babe in
her cradle and tore a bloody 

2082
01:42:12,000 --> 01:42:16,600
chunk from her arm. 
As Lena shrieked, Lord Oakenfest

2083
01:42:16,600 --> 01:42:22,240
ripped the dragon off her, flung
it to the floor, and hacked it 

2084
01:42:22,320 --> 01:42:26,000
into pieces. 
After that, King Egon banned 

2085
01:42:26,000 --> 01:42:28,360
dragon eggs from the Red Keep. 
Wow. 

2086
01:42:28,640 --> 01:42:29,960
Yeah, he took pretty heavy 
measures there. 

2087
01:42:29,960 --> 01:42:33,440
Maybe that relates to why the 
last dragon was so visible and 

2088
01:42:33,440 --> 01:42:37,240
so people could go see it like 
Arlen did, because he didn't 

2089
01:42:37,240 --> 01:42:39,120
want it inside the castle, so 
maybe he spent a lot of time 

2090
01:42:39,120 --> 01:42:40,880
outside. 
I don't know, Maybe this is 

2091
01:42:40,880 --> 01:42:43,560
related somehow. 
Either way, that clearly got 

2092
01:42:43,560 --> 01:42:47,520
reversed because after egg on 
the third, dragon eggs were back

2093
01:42:47,520 --> 01:42:50,560
in cradles again. 
But winter did break that year, 

2094
01:42:50,560 --> 01:42:54,400
so maybe some superstitious few 
thought that it was related. 

2095
01:42:54,400 --> 01:42:57,120
He kicked all the dragon eggs 
out of the Red Keep and then all

2096
01:42:57,120 --> 01:42:59,520
of a sudden summer breaks, You 
know, people are getting very 

2097
01:42:59,520 --> 01:43:01,280
superstitious or winter breaks 
rather. 

2098
01:43:01,280 --> 01:43:02,400
So people are very 
superstitious. 

2099
01:43:02,400 --> 01:43:04,520
You have that quote in there 
that I say I read about. 

2100
01:43:04,640 --> 01:43:07,120
Even Mushroom was starting to 
think that the Seven had turned 

2101
01:43:07,120 --> 01:43:09,080
against the Targaryens and the 
guy who doesn't even really 

2102
01:43:09,080 --> 01:43:12,160
believe in the gods. 
Well, if the people who don't 

2103
01:43:12,160 --> 01:43:14,120
really believe in the gods think
that 7 have turned against the 

2104
01:43:14,120 --> 01:43:17,280
Targaryens, well then you got to
believe that people who are a 

2105
01:43:17,280 --> 01:43:19,280
little more sincere with their 
beliefs in the 1st place would 

2106
01:43:19,280 --> 01:43:20,800
have been thinking that way for 
a while. 

2107
01:43:21,240 --> 01:43:24,400
Again, no wonder the Targaryens 
turned to the faith, started 

2108
01:43:24,400 --> 01:43:28,680
adopting the Ways and Means and 
and language and dress and all 

2109
01:43:28,680 --> 01:43:31,440
that and into much more 
seriously than they had before. 

2110
01:43:31,440 --> 01:43:36,080
It wasn't just about power. 
It's also about pushing back 

2111
01:43:36,080 --> 01:43:39,080
against the idea that the gods 
are against them. 

2112
01:43:39,160 --> 01:43:41,120
You know, like the gods have 
turned on, there's so many bad 

2113
01:43:41,120 --> 01:43:42,600
things have happened during 
their reign. 

2114
01:43:42,600 --> 01:43:45,320
The Targaryens have had so much 
so many losses and and 

2115
01:43:45,880 --> 01:43:50,080
negativity that you would think 
that they would want to push 

2116
01:43:50,080 --> 01:43:52,560
back against this, this 
perception of them. 

2117
01:43:53,440 --> 01:43:55,480
Yeah, you can hear the high 
septon saying that stuff, right?

2118
01:43:55,560 --> 01:43:57,400
Even the maybe the high Septon, 
this is a time where he's like, 

2119
01:43:57,400 --> 01:43:59,520
he feels like he can say what he
wants because, yeah, what are 

2120
01:43:59,520 --> 01:44:00,520
they going to do to me? 
What is it? 

2121
01:44:00,520 --> 01:44:02,920
This this dragon king is not 
going to send a dragon at me. 

2122
01:44:03,080 --> 01:44:04,440
He doesn't even have one to send
at me. 

2123
01:44:04,440 --> 01:44:05,600
Which dragon is he going to 
send? 

2124
01:44:05,720 --> 01:44:09,840
Who's going to burn Old Town? 
The this last dragon that 

2125
01:44:09,840 --> 01:44:12,400
doesn't even have a name and can
barely fly? 

2126
01:44:12,400 --> 01:44:13,680
Like who? 
What are they worried about, 

2127
01:44:13,680 --> 01:44:15,480
especially in winter? 
Well, like, they can't Marshall 

2128
01:44:15,480 --> 01:44:17,720
some big army to send to Old 
Town, especially right after the

2129
01:44:17,720 --> 01:44:23,280
dance, like we're almost weak. 
So I wonder if it's that would 

2130
01:44:23,280 --> 01:44:25,840
have been a particularly good 
time for the the face to test 

2131
01:44:25,840 --> 01:44:27,600
the waters as to what they could
get away with and what they 

2132
01:44:27,600 --> 01:44:31,400
could say and then what not 
Power can't be held back for 

2133
01:44:31,400 --> 01:44:33,080
long. 
Power in check is eventually 

2134
01:44:33,080 --> 01:44:36,840
going to explode. 
And yeah, open preaching against

2135
01:44:36,840 --> 01:44:41,080
the Targaryen, perhaps unlikely.
Yeah, I I feel like it just got 

2136
01:44:41,080 --> 01:44:44,320
the the bar moved just a little 
bit every year. 

2137
01:44:44,960 --> 01:44:46,880
But here's another example. 
Here's this is fun. 

2138
01:44:46,880 --> 01:44:50,920
We get to go back to Dunkin Egg 
and discuss some more dragony 

2139
01:44:50,920 --> 01:44:54,760
stuff from their perspective. 
Do you want a cloud in the ear? 

2140
01:44:55,280 --> 01:44:58,840
There are no Dragons. 
No, but there are eggs. 

2141
01:44:59,200 --> 01:45:02,880
The last dragon left a clutch of
five and they have more on 

2142
01:45:02,880 --> 01:45:06,520
Dragonstone. 
Old ones from before the dance. 

2143
01:45:06,920 --> 01:45:11,200
My brothers all have them too. 
Aryan's looks as though it's 

2144
01:45:11,200 --> 01:45:14,720
made of gold and silver with 
veins of fire running through 

2145
01:45:14,720 --> 01:45:17,000
it. 
Mine is white and green, all 

2146
01:45:17,000 --> 01:45:20,600
swirly. 
Your Dragon's egg. 

2147
01:45:21,480 --> 01:45:25,400
They put it in his cradle. 
Dunk was so used to egg that 

2148
01:45:25,400 --> 01:45:28,480
sometimes he forgot egg on was a
Prince. 

2149
01:45:28,840 --> 01:45:32,080
Of course they put a dragon egg 
inside his cradle. 

2150
01:45:33,080 --> 01:45:36,280
So this is well after the reign 
of egg on the third, who banned 

2151
01:45:36,280 --> 01:45:38,120
dragon eggs from the Red Keep. 
So like I said, that's how we 

2152
01:45:38,120 --> 01:45:40,960
can be very sure that that was 
undone because here we go with 

2153
01:45:42,240 --> 01:45:46,560
Egg had an egg in his cradle. 
So this is 40 ish years gone. 

2154
01:45:46,560 --> 01:45:50,000
Basically. 
Dunk, again, he's a personality 

2155
01:45:50,000 --> 01:45:53,040
entirely of the post dragon era.
That's a point that is made 

2156
01:45:53,040 --> 01:45:55,760
early in the hedge night. 
So people get their bearings as 

2157
01:45:55,760 --> 01:45:58,880
to when the Dragons died out. 
And it's an important milestone,

2158
01:45:58,880 --> 01:46:00,760
right, to keep in, to keep in 
consideration. 

2159
01:46:01,440 --> 01:46:04,000
So he's not someone that lived 
through both sides of it. 

2160
01:46:04,000 --> 01:46:06,280
Duncan and obviously Arlen did, 
but barely. 

2161
01:46:06,280 --> 01:46:09,480
He was so young there. 
What we really need more of are 

2162
01:46:09,480 --> 01:46:15,440
takes from people who were alive
and adults before the dance that

2163
01:46:15,440 --> 01:46:18,680
survived it and then lived for 
quite a while afterwards. 

2164
01:46:18,680 --> 01:46:22,360
So they could maybe weigh in on 
the seasons, if that was really 

2165
01:46:22,360 --> 01:46:24,080
a thing, if there was any 
evidence there. 

2166
01:46:24,080 --> 01:46:27,480
And was there any other 
differences between the Dragons,

2167
01:46:27,560 --> 01:46:29,480
Right. 
What was the vibe like? 

2168
01:46:29,480 --> 01:46:33,360
This is what did am I right that
just it was the talk of all the 

2169
01:46:33,360 --> 01:46:35,840
pubs and Taverns all the time 
and what was the vibe? 

2170
01:46:35,840 --> 01:46:37,400
Was it fear? 
Was it curiosity? 

2171
01:46:37,400 --> 01:46:42,520
Was it like a sort of a giddy 
excitement for the fall of the 

2172
01:46:42,520 --> 01:46:44,240
top house? 
Like people do kind of get 

2173
01:46:44,240 --> 01:46:47,760
excited to see, you know, the 
rich fall like the the powerful 

2174
01:46:47,760 --> 01:46:50,240
people get excited about that, 
you know, even even though it 

2175
01:46:50,240 --> 01:46:53,200
might cause problems for them. 
It's you like to see the high 

2176
01:46:53,200 --> 01:46:58,440
and mighty fall when they 
deserve it or because they've 

2177
01:46:58,440 --> 01:46:59,840
had it coming, which is kind of 
the same thing. 

2178
01:46:59,840 --> 01:47:02,320
I guess this is some 
schadenfreude I guess. 

2179
01:47:02,320 --> 01:47:05,640
But yeah, there would have been 
a lot of people eager to see 

2180
01:47:05,640 --> 01:47:09,600
what would happen and or worried
at the same time, like a little 

2181
01:47:09,600 --> 01:47:12,280
of both. 
So he mentioned that yeah, Aegon

2182
01:47:12,280 --> 01:47:15,040
the Third was against Dragons. 
He kicked them out. 

2183
01:47:15,040 --> 01:47:17,920
But later in his reign some 
things changed and this is very 

2184
01:47:17,920 --> 01:47:20,720
Aegon the 5th ish. 
And I think you'll agree he sent

2185
01:47:20,720 --> 01:47:25,320
off for 9 mages from Essos, not 
sure where in Essos but and it 

2186
01:47:25,320 --> 01:47:28,560
was his brother Viserys idea. 
So it was like a milder version 

2187
01:47:28,560 --> 01:47:32,920
of Summerhall because go Agon 
the 5th wanted to change laws, 

2188
01:47:33,560 --> 01:47:36,240
the nobility was resistant. 
Same thing here. 

2189
01:47:36,320 --> 01:47:38,360
Agon the third wanted to change 
laws but the nobility was 

2190
01:47:38,360 --> 01:47:39,600
resistant. 
Both of them were very pro 

2191
01:47:39,600 --> 01:47:41,400
commoner and that's a big part 
of where they wanted those 

2192
01:47:41,400 --> 01:47:43,800
changes to be focused on. 
They wanted to promote the 

2193
01:47:43,800 --> 01:47:45,920
commoners more. 
They wanted to lift, raise the 

2194
01:47:45,920 --> 01:47:49,000
floor so to speak. 
And there was some sort of 

2195
01:47:49,000 --> 01:47:51,600
ritual and some kind of debacle,
we're not sure what. 

2196
01:47:51,600 --> 01:47:54,720
Almost certainly not the kind of
debacle of Summerhall. 

2197
01:47:54,720 --> 01:47:57,400
It feels like that wouldn't be 
glossed over if so many people 

2198
01:47:57,400 --> 01:48:00,080
died. 
To be fair, Summerhall sort of 

2199
01:48:00,080 --> 01:48:03,080
gets glossed over a lot, but 
it's the language is a lot more 

2200
01:48:03,080 --> 01:48:05,640
severe about it. 
It's clear that it was some sort

2201
01:48:05,640 --> 01:48:07,160
of tragedy. 
This is a debacle. 

2202
01:48:07,160 --> 01:48:09,720
Debacle is not tragedy. 
Tragedy means people died. 

2203
01:48:11,120 --> 01:48:13,800
Debacle does not. 
Debacle just means this was 

2204
01:48:13,800 --> 01:48:15,640
just. 
It could just mean it was 

2205
01:48:15,640 --> 01:48:17,520
stupid. 
It could just means it was ill 

2206
01:48:17,520 --> 01:48:19,880
conceived. 
It could just mean it made them 

2207
01:48:19,880 --> 01:48:22,040
look bad. 
It could mean all the above. 

2208
01:48:22,560 --> 01:48:24,360
Yeah, it just could make them 
looking bad. 

2209
01:48:24,360 --> 01:48:27,680
I think it's probably the the 
best way I think we can take 

2210
01:48:27,680 --> 01:48:29,880
away from this without reaching 
too far. 

2211
01:48:30,280 --> 01:48:32,080
But it didn't. 
It still, it was a failure, 

2212
01:48:32,080 --> 01:48:35,120
bottom line, no matter what. 
Anyway, you look at it and you 

2213
01:48:35,120 --> 01:48:38,280
wonder if what other Targaryens 
thought about that, whether that

2214
01:48:38,280 --> 01:48:41,760
just made Daron the First, who 
would have taken over as king 

2215
01:48:41,760 --> 01:48:44,200
not long after this. 
Because this is probably near 

2216
01:48:44,200 --> 01:48:46,840
the end of Aegon the Third's 
reign and Aegon the Third died 

2217
01:48:46,840 --> 01:48:50,960
of consumption. 
Dare on the First seeing this 

2218
01:48:50,960 --> 01:48:52,600
fail too. 
This is one of many things that 

2219
01:48:52,600 --> 01:48:54,720
he just got in his head. 
The only thing that's going to 

2220
01:48:54,720 --> 01:48:58,800
work is just me leading an army 
into Dorn and proving everybody 

2221
01:48:58,800 --> 01:49:03,320
that we're still strong. 
So let's talk about what or who 

2222
01:49:03,320 --> 01:49:05,080
done it. 
We've laid out a lot of 

2223
01:49:05,080 --> 01:49:08,320
evidence, a lot of different 
details, a lot of timelines. 

2224
01:49:08,920 --> 01:49:12,600
Let's get into the possibility 
that it was intentional by 

2225
01:49:12,600 --> 01:49:16,280
somebody we've talked around it.
Let's get more specific. 4 basic

2226
01:49:16,280 --> 01:49:19,000
possibilities. 
The three who's and one what the

2227
01:49:19,000 --> 01:49:23,640
what is grand supernatural 
forces beyond human control. 

2228
01:49:23,640 --> 01:49:26,080
That's the whole idea with the 
tides flowing in and out like 

2229
01:49:26,080 --> 01:49:29,520
magic flowing in and out like 
tides or like cloud cover. 

2230
01:49:29,520 --> 01:49:31,560
You know sometimes it's cloudy 
day on cloudy days. 

2231
01:49:31,560 --> 01:49:33,000
The magic works well on some 
days. 

2232
01:49:33,160 --> 01:49:35,040
Maybe you guys are feeling with 
the Dragonlance series. 

2233
01:49:35,040 --> 01:49:36,640
In Dragonlance there's three 
moons. 

2234
01:49:36,760 --> 01:49:40,080
All three moons are magical. 
Whichever moon is closest to the

2235
01:49:40,080 --> 01:49:42,400
planet at that time, that magic 
works best. 

2236
01:49:42,400 --> 01:49:44,040
There's white, there's red, 
there's black. 

2237
01:49:44,440 --> 01:49:48,040
So when the red moon is big in 
the sky, the red magic works the

2238
01:49:48,040 --> 01:49:49,880
best. 
It's not an old fantasy concept.

2239
01:49:49,880 --> 01:49:51,040
It's not hard to understand 
either. 

2240
01:49:51,040 --> 01:49:52,880
It makes sense. 
It's not something that George 

2241
01:49:52,880 --> 01:49:55,880
invented, nor Ramsay Campbell, 
nor the red comet concept. 

2242
01:49:55,880 --> 01:49:59,640
It's just magic having a 
governing body. 

2243
01:50:00,680 --> 01:50:03,600
Maybe that body is a comet. 
Maybe it's a moon, maybe it's a 

2244
01:50:03,600 --> 01:50:06,400
sun. 
Maybe it's some giant hole in 

2245
01:50:06,400 --> 01:50:08,880
the ground, a chasm that leads 
directly to the center of the 

2246
01:50:08,880 --> 01:50:09,520
earth. 
Who knows? 

2247
01:50:09,520 --> 01:50:13,280
There's lots of creative ways to
express this, and that is one 

2248
01:50:13,280 --> 01:50:14,960
that's the hardest for us to get
at. 

2249
01:50:14,960 --> 01:50:18,240
But there's evidence it could be
something like this, partly 

2250
01:50:18,240 --> 01:50:23,040
because the the whodunits I'll 
have some flaws too. 

2251
01:50:23,640 --> 01:50:25,720
Now, we can always have multiple
possibilities, so none of this 

2252
01:50:25,720 --> 01:50:29,080
get gets discarded easily. 
So who here are the three? 

2253
01:50:29,320 --> 01:50:33,520
Who's the human motivations? 
Why and what the Citadel K, 

2254
01:50:33,520 --> 01:50:36,520
we've kind of touched on that. 
That's actually referred to 

2255
01:50:36,520 --> 01:50:38,440
directly in the books by Marwin 
the Faith. 

2256
01:50:39,160 --> 01:50:41,720
I talked about how since they 
gained the most from the end of 

2257
01:50:41,720 --> 01:50:44,320
Dragons, maybe socially and 
maybe politically you can look 

2258
01:50:44,320 --> 01:50:47,200
at them as a possibility. 
They also ideologically are 

2259
01:50:47,200 --> 01:50:50,800
opposed to the Dragons and 
they're connected to the Citadel

2260
01:50:50,800 --> 01:50:52,240
as well. 
So if the Citadel's an anti 

2261
01:50:52,240 --> 01:50:55,840
dragon, maybe this is a sort of 
a faith slash Citadel 

2262
01:50:55,840 --> 01:50:58,800
cooperative effort. 
And behind them both is House 

2263
01:50:58,800 --> 01:51:02,480
Hightower, who represents the 
nobility in this scenario, which

2264
01:51:02,480 --> 01:51:05,040
Nina pointed to. 
A lot of the nobility have a lot

2265
01:51:05,040 --> 01:51:07,600
to gain by seeing the end of 
Dragons. 

2266
01:51:07,600 --> 01:51:09,280
House High Tower. 
House High Tower will be one of 

2267
01:51:09,280 --> 01:51:10,800
them because it's the higher 
nobility. 

2268
01:51:10,960 --> 01:51:13,480
The more powerful the nobility, 
the more they gain from the loss

2269
01:51:13,480 --> 01:51:16,160
of Dragons. 
However, it's less easy to 

2270
01:51:16,160 --> 01:51:19,600
believe some sort of 
coordination between powerful 

2271
01:51:19,600 --> 01:51:21,680
noble houses with regards to the
end of the Dragons. 

2272
01:51:21,840 --> 01:51:24,640
It's already hard enough to 
believe it with the Great 

2273
01:51:24,640 --> 01:51:27,280
Northern Conspiracy. 
Now I believe a lot of Lords got

2274
01:51:27,280 --> 01:51:31,640
gathered to do to do what's best
for themselves right before 

2275
01:51:31,840 --> 01:51:34,960
Aries went completely full 
crazy. 

2276
01:51:34,960 --> 01:51:37,840
That isn't necessarily a 
conspiracy to unseat him, it's 

2277
01:51:37,920 --> 01:51:40,840
maybe just them planning for the
inevitable. 

2278
01:51:41,480 --> 01:51:47,160
That aside, you don't have to 
assume that a conspiracy is only

2279
01:51:47,160 --> 01:51:50,760
by one group or by one by the OR
the whole group is involved 

2280
01:51:50,880 --> 01:51:52,280
right. 
That's especially hard with the 

2281
01:51:52,280 --> 01:51:54,200
nobility. 
There's so many noble houses, 

2282
01:51:54,200 --> 01:51:58,160
like just the great houses got 
involved, or maybe just 

2283
01:51:58,160 --> 01:52:01,400
Hightower and a few of their 
vassals, who knows. 

2284
01:52:01,600 --> 01:52:06,360
But the Citadel and the the 
Citadel and the Faith are a 

2285
01:52:06,360 --> 01:52:09,360
little bit more of a closed 
organization than the nobility. 

2286
01:52:09,520 --> 01:52:13,080
So yeah, maybe one or two noble 
houses, but it's hard to imagine

2287
01:52:13,080 --> 01:52:15,000
like dozens of them being 
involved in this. 

2288
01:52:15,520 --> 01:52:18,840
And then third, but certainly 
not last, is the Faceless Man. 

2289
01:52:19,400 --> 01:52:21,760
They obviously are very capable 
of killing. 

2290
01:52:21,760 --> 01:52:25,600
They're the most capable perhaps
of murdering Dragons, murder in 

2291
01:52:25,600 --> 01:52:28,480
general. 
They also have ideological 

2292
01:52:28,840 --> 01:52:31,200
opposition, just like the 
maestros do. 

2293
01:52:31,200 --> 01:52:32,920
They're opposite. 
I mean, sorry, just like, well, 

2294
01:52:32,920 --> 01:52:35,200
all of them have ideological 
opposition really, but theirs is

2295
01:52:35,200 --> 01:52:37,960
perhaps the most severe. 
Maybe you could say the faces. 

2296
01:52:37,960 --> 01:52:41,440
But the Faceless men, I think, I
think they have more hatred of 

2297
01:52:41,440 --> 01:52:45,360
Dragons and Valyrians than the 
the faith do more, more 

2298
01:52:45,360 --> 01:52:49,120
ideological opposition there. 
It's actually hard to top the 

2299
01:52:49,120 --> 01:52:53,360
Faceless Men in that regard. 
Born in their a slave mines. 

2300
01:52:53,360 --> 01:52:55,040
That's that's rather 
straightforward. 

2301
01:52:55,360 --> 01:52:57,720
Anyway, it's a compelling 
possibility to put them very 

2302
01:52:57,720 --> 01:53:00,000
high on the list. 
So the Faithless men are 

2303
01:53:00,000 --> 01:53:03,080
generally for hireright. 
This is their own thing, 

2304
01:53:03,400 --> 01:53:06,000
probably. 
Again, I point to the fact that 

2305
01:53:06,000 --> 01:53:09,040
they just kind of left the 
Targaryens alone, which is a 

2306
01:53:09,040 --> 01:53:12,400
little suspicious. 
Maybe, maybe, I don't know, But 

2307
01:53:12,400 --> 01:53:14,600
they definitely have to be 
included in this conversation 

2308
01:53:14,600 --> 01:53:16,960
anyway you look at it. 
In the case of the Citadel and 

2309
01:53:16,960 --> 01:53:18,520
the Faith, yeah, they could be 
working together. 

2310
01:53:19,240 --> 01:53:21,280
Don't know that about. 
Don't know about that here. 

2311
01:53:21,280 --> 01:53:23,320
I don't think the Faceless Men 
would be working with anybody 

2312
01:53:23,320 --> 01:53:26,080
else here unless they were hired
to do so, which we don't think 

2313
01:53:26,080 --> 01:53:28,760
is the case because of their 
straightforward ideological 

2314
01:53:28,760 --> 01:53:33,000
opposition. 
The problem with comparing that 

2315
01:53:33,000 --> 01:53:36,200
to now, like did the Faceless 
Men kill the Dragons before? 

2316
01:53:36,640 --> 01:53:37,920
Do they want to do that now 
though? 

2317
01:53:37,920 --> 01:53:40,680
Because Danny's anti slavery, 
She wants to save the world from

2318
01:53:40,680 --> 01:53:42,120
the other potentially. 
I'm not even sure if they're 

2319
01:53:42,120 --> 01:53:44,360
aware of that part, but they 
definitely know about the anti 

2320
01:53:44,360 --> 01:53:46,640
slavery part. 
She is very famous for that 

2321
01:53:46,640 --> 01:53:51,080
already, like the smashing the 
slave trade is the talk of 

2322
01:53:51,760 --> 01:53:54,960
Western Essos, right? 
She's just just completely 

2323
01:53:54,960 --> 01:53:57,080
upended the economy amongst the 
rich. 

2324
01:53:58,200 --> 01:53:59,880
The faceless men are more than 
aware of that. 

2325
01:54:00,080 --> 01:54:03,000
That's partly because they have 
a connection to the Iron Bank. 

2326
01:54:03,080 --> 01:54:04,880
They would have a they would 
know anyway though. 

2327
01:54:05,200 --> 01:54:08,200
So there's a lot of of the most 
powerful organizations in the 

2328
01:54:08,200 --> 01:54:10,720
world are involved in this or 
potentially involved in this. 

2329
01:54:11,160 --> 01:54:14,560
They all have their own very 
straightforward reasons to be 

2330
01:54:14,560 --> 01:54:17,320
involved and potentially some 
other reasons that we're not 

2331
01:54:17,320 --> 01:54:19,520
aware of. 
And that, and these are these 

2332
01:54:19,520 --> 01:54:21,280
reasons are out there. 
They're obvious. 

2333
01:54:21,280 --> 01:54:23,960
I think. 
So it's that's why it's not too 

2334
01:54:23,960 --> 01:54:26,680
hard to imagine some of these 
groups working together because 

2335
01:54:26,680 --> 01:54:28,240
they all know each other's 
motivations. 

2336
01:54:28,240 --> 01:54:29,560
They all have some of the same 
motivations. 

2337
01:54:29,560 --> 01:54:32,160
Like, yeah, we all, we all 
benefit if the Dragons are gone,

2338
01:54:32,160 --> 01:54:33,800
right? 
Don't we all with this group of 

2339
01:54:33,800 --> 01:54:36,280
us in this room right now, like,
yes, that's why we're here, 

2340
01:54:36,280 --> 01:54:39,040
because we're very obviously 
people who benefit from the 

2341
01:54:39,040 --> 01:54:40,960
Dragons being gone. 
I don't know who was in this 

2342
01:54:40,960 --> 01:54:44,520
room at that moment, but we've 
given you a lot of candidates 

2343
01:54:44,520 --> 01:54:48,360
here, actually. 
I mean, killing off the Dragons 

2344
01:54:48,360 --> 01:54:50,080
before, like imagine the face 
those men wanted to kill the 

2345
01:54:50,080 --> 01:54:52,320
Dragons off. 
Well, that would have been 

2346
01:54:52,320 --> 01:54:55,520
really difficult. 
Now they can, but that still 

2347
01:54:55,520 --> 01:54:57,080
gets us. 
That still leaves us with the 

2348
01:54:57,080 --> 01:54:59,880
confusion of, well, the 
Targaryens are still there. 

2349
01:54:59,880 --> 01:55:02,640
If they wanted to get rid of the
Dragons, couldn't they have just

2350
01:55:02,640 --> 01:55:04,640
killed the dragon riders? 
Maybe that's worked. 

2351
01:55:04,640 --> 01:55:07,000
Maybe that just means the 
Dragons were running rampant. 

2352
01:55:07,000 --> 01:55:08,920
And I don't know. 
I don't know how they think 

2353
01:55:08,920 --> 01:55:12,800
they're a weird religious death 
cult and there there's a lot we 

2354
01:55:12,800 --> 01:55:16,680
don't know about them still, but
but we know enough to very much 

2355
01:55:16,680 --> 01:55:19,080
include them here. 
Hey, let's talk about Marwin a 

2356
01:55:19,080 --> 01:55:21,240
little bit. 
His conspiracy stuff has been 

2357
01:55:21,240 --> 01:55:23,160
off and on in this episode, but 
we should get into more detail 

2358
01:55:23,160 --> 01:55:25,800
here. 
One peculiar thing he says is he

2359
01:55:25,800 --> 01:55:29,640
tells Sam maybe it's good that 
Eamon died at sea on the way 

2360
01:55:29,640 --> 01:55:31,280
here, otherwise they'd have had 
to kill him. 

2361
01:55:31,840 --> 01:55:34,440
It's a weird thing to say. 
Sam is shocked they'd kill 

2362
01:55:34,440 --> 01:55:38,480
anyone, let alone Eamon. 
Which brings us to Marwin's 

2363
01:55:38,480 --> 01:55:42,000
great conspiracy thesis. 
Who do you think killed all the 

2364
01:55:42,000 --> 01:55:45,480
Dragons the last time around? 
Gallant dragon slayers armed 

2365
01:55:45,480 --> 01:55:48,480
with swords? 
The world the Citadel is 

2366
01:55:48,480 --> 01:55:51,920
building has no place in it for 
sorcery or prophecy or glass 

2367
01:55:51,920 --> 01:55:56,320
candles, much less for Dragons. 
Ask yourself why Eamon Targaryen

2368
01:55:56,320 --> 01:55:59,880
was allowed to waste his life 
upon the Wall when by Rice he 

2369
01:55:59,880 --> 01:56:01,720
should have been raised to 
archmaester. 

2370
01:56:02,080 --> 01:56:06,640
His blood was why he could not 
be trusted No more than I can. 

2371
01:56:07,120 --> 01:56:08,840
So that's compelling. 
You like hearing that? 

2372
01:56:08,840 --> 01:56:12,040
That moment when you first read 
it is like, yeah, whoa, what is 

2373
01:56:12,040 --> 01:56:13,160
this? 
This is cool. 

2374
01:56:13,520 --> 01:56:15,880
And it's it's it's near the end 
of the book, so it feels kind of

2375
01:56:15,880 --> 01:56:17,080
climactic. 
And it is. 

2376
01:56:17,240 --> 01:56:19,120
But there's some flaws here in 
his story. 

2377
01:56:20,320 --> 01:56:22,760
As we've said earlier, I 
seriously doubt the maesters 

2378
01:56:22,760 --> 01:56:25,440
killed Silverwing, Cannibal or 
Sheep Steeler, let alone all 

2379
01:56:25,440 --> 01:56:26,480
three. 
So he's like, who do you think 

2380
01:56:26,480 --> 01:56:28,720
killed the last track? 
Well, they didn't. 

2381
01:56:28,720 --> 01:56:30,400
The maestro didn't kill them. 
I don't think. 

2382
01:56:30,760 --> 01:56:33,760
If Marwin said, who do you think
finished off the dragon or who 

2383
01:56:33,760 --> 01:56:35,640
do you think killed the last few
Dragons? 

2384
01:56:35,640 --> 01:56:40,000
I I'd be more likely to align 
that aligns with what we've been

2385
01:56:40,000 --> 01:56:42,840
saying. 
But he he says gallant dragon 

2386
01:56:42,840 --> 01:56:45,480
slayers with swords. 
Like that's ridiculous and it 

2387
01:56:45,480 --> 01:56:47,280
is. 
But a maestro killing the 

2388
01:56:47,280 --> 01:56:49,120
cannibal is pretty ridiculous 
too. 

2389
01:56:49,880 --> 01:56:53,280
Probably right. 
I mean again, Maestro can poison

2390
01:56:53,280 --> 01:56:56,880
eggs, but a 10 year old child 
could kill a hatchling. 

2391
01:56:56,880 --> 01:56:58,080
You don't. 
That doesn't take a gallant 

2392
01:56:58,080 --> 01:57:01,040
dragon Slayer with a sword and 
his take on Eamon. 

2393
01:57:01,040 --> 01:57:03,480
That's that's just not accurate 
is it? 

2394
01:57:03,480 --> 01:57:07,400
Not all of it anyway. 
Eamon chose to take the black to

2395
01:57:07,440 --> 01:57:10,040
help his brother's reign be more
secure. 

2396
01:57:10,440 --> 01:57:13,720
Where does the not being trusted
by the citadel part enter into 

2397
01:57:13,720 --> 01:57:16,920
all this? 
They did he take the black 

2398
01:57:16,920 --> 01:57:19,000
because he thought that 
Archbatrios would kill him 

2399
01:57:19,000 --> 01:57:20,280
otherwise? 
I mean, that's a bit of a 

2400
01:57:20,280 --> 01:57:22,320
stretch, but that's the only way
I can really reconcile those two

2401
01:57:22,320 --> 01:57:25,320
statements, so I doubt it. 
I doubted Marwin, while it's 

2402
01:57:25,320 --> 01:57:27,520
possible Eamonn had other 
motivations for taking the 

2403
01:57:27,520 --> 01:57:31,800
black, those reasons would be 
maybe prophecy related. 

2404
01:57:31,800 --> 01:57:35,520
Like hey, the front lines of the
supernatural war to come is up 

2405
01:57:35,520 --> 01:57:36,840
here. 
This is where I need to be. 

2406
01:57:37,240 --> 01:57:40,400
That to me is a lot more likely 
than, well, if I go to the 

2407
01:57:40,400 --> 01:57:42,520
Citadel, they'll kill me, you 
know? 

2408
01:57:43,120 --> 01:57:49,160
So if Eamonn saw that danger, 
why didn't he say it to Sam? 

2409
01:57:49,160 --> 01:57:50,480
Why didn't he? 
Why didn't that come up? 

2410
01:57:50,480 --> 01:57:52,400
Why did he? 
Why was he so eager to go there?

2411
01:57:52,400 --> 01:57:54,960
You know, like, oh, that place 
where they're going to kill me, 

2412
01:57:54,960 --> 01:57:56,480
It's been 50 years. 
They don't care about that 

2413
01:57:56,480 --> 01:57:58,640
anymore. 
It doesn't even come up from his

2414
01:57:58,640 --> 01:58:00,000
perspective. 
He doesn't even think of it. 

2415
01:58:00,000 --> 01:58:01,280
He doesn't Warren doesn't say 
anything. 

2416
01:58:01,280 --> 01:58:03,960
Like, why wouldn't Marwin warn 
Sam? 

2417
01:58:03,960 --> 01:58:07,120
Don't bring up prophecy or they 
might put poison in your in your

2418
01:58:07,280 --> 01:58:10,280
oatmeal. 
Why did Eamon warn Sam of that? 

2419
01:58:10,280 --> 01:58:12,600
If it's true or if it's if it's 
something that Eamon himself was

2420
01:58:12,600 --> 01:58:13,920
worried about. 
So I think Marwin is putting 

2421
01:58:13,920 --> 01:58:18,160
words in Eamon's mouth or maybe 
going a little farther with his 

2422
01:58:18,160 --> 01:58:22,200
conspiracy then is warranted. 
He's also talking about things 

2423
01:58:22,200 --> 01:58:25,360
that were long gone by the time 
he was born. 

2424
01:58:26,040 --> 01:58:28,320
Like if he isn't to be trusted, 
if the maestros to other arch 

2425
01:58:28,320 --> 01:58:30,520
maestros don't trust him, then 
how did he learn these inner 

2426
01:58:30,520 --> 01:58:33,200
circle secrets in the 1st place?
Like who taught him, who told 

2427
01:58:33,200 --> 01:58:35,280
him, who gave him these, gave 
him this information? 

2428
01:58:35,280 --> 01:58:36,720
He's obviously didn't learn it 
first hand. 

2429
01:58:36,720 --> 01:58:38,320
He wasn't around when the 
Dragons died. 

2430
01:58:39,800 --> 01:58:41,640
Maybe he wasn't always so 
mistrusted. 

2431
01:58:41,640 --> 01:58:45,040
Maybe early on, like he was 
inner circle, and then over time

2432
01:58:45,040 --> 01:58:47,480
they realized he couldn't be 
trusted. 

2433
01:58:47,760 --> 01:58:49,760
Eamon wasn't trusted from the 
beginning because he's a 

2434
01:58:49,760 --> 01:58:50,800
Targaryen. 
Maybe. 

2435
01:58:51,560 --> 01:58:53,240
So yeah, they're both black 
sheep, not Gray ones. 

2436
01:58:53,240 --> 01:58:55,280
Eamon especially, you know, 
black brother and all that. 

2437
01:58:55,280 --> 01:58:58,880
But now I'm not a. 
It's not necessarily a flaw in 

2438
01:58:58,880 --> 01:59:02,160
or this isn't necessarily 
another criticism of what Marwin

2439
01:59:02,160 --> 01:59:05,520
says, but I wonder which 
archmaester he thought Eamon 

2440
01:59:05,520 --> 01:59:08,120
would because you're there's not
just generic archmaesters. 

2441
01:59:08,120 --> 01:59:11,000
There's each archmaester is of 
something Archmaester of black 

2442
01:59:11,000 --> 01:59:14,400
iron, archmaester of, you know, 
archmaester of gold, archmaester

2443
01:59:14,400 --> 01:59:15,800
of. 
So would it be Valyrians to you?

2444
01:59:15,800 --> 01:59:19,080
Is that the one they thought 
they would put him in as well? 

2445
01:59:19,080 --> 01:59:22,400
If they're trying to control the
type of information that comes 

2446
01:59:22,400 --> 01:59:25,760
from that office, if they're 
trying to suppress magical 

2447
01:59:25,760 --> 01:59:29,520
knowledge, they would put a yes 
man, somebody who doesn't 

2448
01:59:29,520 --> 01:59:31,280
believe in magic in that 
position. 

2449
01:59:31,280 --> 01:59:35,800
They'd, you know, it's like, 
like all the time we see people 

2450
01:59:35,800 --> 01:59:39,920
in really high political office 
appoint someone incompetent or 

2451
01:59:39,920 --> 01:59:44,400
hostile to that office to run it
in order to destroy it or to 

2452
01:59:44,920 --> 01:59:47,640
bring usher in its slow 
downfall. 

2453
01:59:48,200 --> 01:59:51,760
So, yeah, I don't wonder, like 
they wouldn't have how much 

2454
01:59:51,760 --> 01:59:53,040
damage could Eamon have really 
done? 

2455
01:59:53,040 --> 01:59:54,200
Like, why would they kill this 
guy? 

2456
01:59:54,200 --> 01:59:56,360
He's 102 years old. 
And like, what? 

2457
01:59:56,360 --> 01:59:58,560
What really are his? 
Are his words really that 

2458
01:59:58,560 --> 02:00:00,280
dangerous? 
I mean, maybe, maybe aside, 

2459
02:00:00,280 --> 02:00:03,720
maybe they people, too many 
people would believe him and it 

2460
02:00:03,720 --> 02:00:06,880
could send the Citadel spinning.
Like if he, he starts talking 

2461
02:00:06,880 --> 02:00:08,400
about the others and all that 
other stuff. 

2462
02:00:08,400 --> 02:00:11,040
And yeah, but Sam's going to do 
it, right? 

2463
02:00:11,040 --> 02:00:12,120
Or, or is he? 
I don't know. 

2464
02:00:12,120 --> 02:00:14,640
I don't I, I don't think 
Marwin's wrong overall, but you 

2465
02:00:14,640 --> 02:00:18,240
can clearly see that he's a 
little too far in some of these 

2466
02:00:18,240 --> 02:00:19,440
directions. 
These these some of these things

2467
02:00:19,440 --> 02:00:22,000
just aren't supported. 
Maybe he's exaggerating a bit, 

2468
02:00:22,560 --> 02:00:25,320
but he can't again, can't push 
it aside. 

2469
02:00:25,320 --> 02:00:29,320
He's he's got some truth that 
he's speaking to, even if he's 

2470
02:00:29,560 --> 02:00:34,600
not 100% right. 
How to kill a dragon. 

2471
02:00:34,840 --> 02:00:38,680
So we have some motives, we have
some culprits, but the how how 

2472
02:00:38,680 --> 02:00:39,920
do you actually kill the 
Dragons? 

2473
02:00:40,720 --> 02:00:43,040
What's how do you keep it a 
secret? 

2474
02:00:43,120 --> 02:00:46,800
What's the means all that. 
So if we go through our three 

2475
02:00:46,800 --> 02:00:48,920
main possibilities, the 
poisoning of the Dragons 

2476
02:00:48,920 --> 02:00:52,200
themselves is perhaps possible. 
Maybe that's how you kill the 

2477
02:00:52,200 --> 02:00:54,280
bigger ones. 
Maybe you really can kill Sheep 

2478
02:00:54,280 --> 02:00:58,680
Stealer and the Cannibal and 
Silverwing by feeding them 

2479
02:00:58,680 --> 02:01:00,160
poisoned sheep or something like
that. 

2480
02:01:00,160 --> 02:01:01,560
Yeah, maybe that really works. 
I don't know. 

2481
02:01:01,720 --> 02:01:02,480
It could. 
I can't say. 

2482
02:01:02,480 --> 02:01:03,160
No. 
I can't say. 

2483
02:01:03,160 --> 02:01:04,280
That would never work. 
Why not? 

2484
02:01:04,360 --> 02:01:04,760
Why? 
Why? 

2485
02:01:04,800 --> 02:01:07,480
Why would I be able to say that?
Maybe it does. 

2486
02:01:08,040 --> 02:01:09,840
So if there is a murder mass 
that that works, they might be 

2487
02:01:09,840 --> 02:01:12,360
trying for that. 
I think poisoning the eggs is a 

2488
02:01:12,360 --> 02:01:14,520
little more straightforward. 
I mean, eggs are obviously a 

2489
02:01:14,520 --> 02:01:17,800
little more fragile. 
Poisoning a hatchling, you know,

2490
02:01:18,320 --> 02:01:21,840
I don't think poisoning a 
hatchling explains why that one 

2491
02:01:21,840 --> 02:01:25,840
hatchling was so aggressive and 
violent that it bit someone. 

2492
02:01:25,840 --> 02:01:27,040
We don't have any example of 
that. 

2493
02:01:27,040 --> 02:01:32,360
In fact, that might be the only 
example of a dragon harming A 

2494
02:01:32,440 --> 02:01:35,920
Targaryen that wasn't encouraged
to do so. 

2495
02:01:36,520 --> 02:01:39,760
No dragon has ever harmed A 
Targaryen that's trying to ride 

2496
02:01:39,760 --> 02:01:43,160
it that we know of, unless it's 
one that wasn't theirs. 

2497
02:01:43,160 --> 02:01:46,960
Like obviously Cyrax harmed 
Joffrey by kicking him off, but 

2498
02:01:46,960 --> 02:01:50,720
that wasn't that was somebody 
riding the wrong dragon either. 

2499
02:01:50,720 --> 02:01:53,080
A riderless dragon hasn't harmed
any Targaryen. 

2500
02:01:53,200 --> 02:01:55,240
They've harmed plenty of dragon 
seeds. 

2501
02:01:55,240 --> 02:01:56,960
They've harmed plenty of other 
randos. 

2502
02:01:57,200 --> 02:01:59,040
But actual Targaryens? 
There was nothing on record of 

2503
02:01:59,040 --> 02:02:05,960
that, so that is odd. 
That makes the one case of a of 

2504
02:02:05,960 --> 02:02:11,200
the White Dragon Sing attacking 
Lena a little unusual, but by 

2505
02:02:11,200 --> 02:02:13,320
itself, you can't go too far 
with that one example. 

2506
02:02:13,880 --> 02:02:17,520
So I think poison's the only 
thing you can get away with 

2507
02:02:17,520 --> 02:02:19,120
here. 
I can't think of another method 

2508
02:02:19,120 --> 02:02:21,400
that wouldn't be just obvious, 
you know, like, well, that 

2509
02:02:21,400 --> 02:02:23,880
dragon was had his head cut off.
Someone did that, you know, 

2510
02:02:24,040 --> 02:02:27,160
poison's the only thing that you
could get away with that 

2511
02:02:27,160 --> 02:02:28,680
wouldn't be traced, wouldn't be 
tracked. 

2512
02:02:28,680 --> 02:02:31,480
Wouldn't because the maesters 
would be the ones giving that 

2513
02:02:31,480 --> 02:02:33,840
autopsy. 
They'd be like, yeah, no poison 

2514
02:02:33,840 --> 02:02:37,320
here. 
The faith, I feel like that's 

2515
02:02:37,320 --> 02:02:39,880
the only thing they have going 
for them too, and they're not 

2516
02:02:39,880 --> 02:02:42,160
the ones who administer it. 
Which is why I would guess that 

2517
02:02:42,160 --> 02:02:45,360
if the faith were involved, it 
was alongside the Citadel. 

2518
02:02:45,400 --> 02:02:48,160
Because who's going to dose the 
Dragons with poison? 

2519
02:02:48,440 --> 02:02:51,520
Not the wandering septons, 
right? 

2520
02:02:51,520 --> 02:02:53,720
How how they going to do that? 
They don't have that knowledge. 

2521
02:02:53,720 --> 02:02:55,040
They don't have that access 
even. 

2522
02:02:55,320 --> 02:02:57,320
But yeah, can I go in the can I 
go hang out with the Dragons for

2523
02:02:57,320 --> 02:02:58,960
a minute? 
Why do you want to do that? 

2524
02:02:58,960 --> 02:03:01,840
Oh, just because I just like 
Dragons, man, you know? 

2525
02:03:02,040 --> 02:03:03,480
But don't watch me while I'm 
there. 

2526
02:03:04,880 --> 02:03:07,760
So if it was the the what rather
than The Who, if it was ebbing 

2527
02:03:07,760 --> 02:03:10,000
magical forces, that helps 
explain a lot. 

2528
02:03:10,160 --> 02:03:12,960
The Dragons would be easier to 
kill if the less magic in the 

2529
02:03:12,960 --> 02:03:15,640
world, they'd be weaker. 
That would explain their 

2530
02:03:15,640 --> 02:03:17,120
weakness or a lot of their 
weakness. 

2531
02:03:17,320 --> 02:03:19,040
Maybe there's no human 
involvement at all. 

2532
02:03:19,040 --> 02:03:21,200
Maybe it's entirely that. 
It just, that's not something 

2533
02:03:21,200 --> 02:03:23,120
that's easy for people to 
accept, so they blame other 

2534
02:03:23,120 --> 02:03:23,840
people. 
They have to. 

2535
02:03:23,840 --> 02:03:25,600
It has to be a human answer 
here. 

2536
02:03:25,600 --> 02:03:28,640
It can't just be magical forces.
Our fandom struggles with that 

2537
02:03:28,640 --> 02:03:30,680
as an answer too. 
Frankly, because it isn't super 

2538
02:03:30,680 --> 02:03:32,640
satisfying. 
I I don't I don't love it as an 

2539
02:03:32,640 --> 02:03:35,320
answer, but I think it could be 
a partial answer. 

2540
02:03:35,320 --> 02:03:38,000
I'm cool with it being a partial
answer, but I feel like there 

2541
02:03:38,000 --> 02:03:41,760
has to be more to it. 
If it's easy for faceless men to

2542
02:03:41,760 --> 02:03:45,480
kill Dragons, at least adult 
Dragons, then what's Jakin still

2543
02:03:45,480 --> 02:03:47,520
at the Citadel for? 
Why is Jakin Agar hanging out 

2544
02:03:47,520 --> 02:03:49,760
there looking for that dragon 
Death of Dragons book? 

2545
02:03:50,280 --> 02:03:55,400
Maybe that's not why he's there.
Then why is he there and why was

2546
02:03:55,400 --> 02:03:57,680
that book mentioned to us? 
Why did Tyrion bring that book 

2547
02:03:57,680 --> 02:03:59,600
up if it's not relevant? 
It's if it's not relevant to the

2548
02:03:59,600 --> 02:04:01,280
Faceless Men, maybe it's 
relevant to somebody else, maybe

2549
02:04:01,280 --> 02:04:03,360
Sam. 
I mean, someone else at the 

2550
02:04:03,360 --> 02:04:06,160
Citadel, I guess, or someone 
else who could be getting access

2551
02:04:06,160 --> 02:04:08,800
to the Citadel. 
Euron, I don't think Euron wants

2552
02:04:08,800 --> 02:04:10,720
to kill Dragons. 
He wants to have one of his own.

2553
02:04:11,600 --> 02:04:15,320
So yeah, what is Jockin doing 
there if he's not trying to get 

2554
02:04:15,320 --> 02:04:19,640
that book and if Dragons are 
easy to kill, well, maybe 

2555
02:04:19,640 --> 02:04:21,360
they're not. 
Maybe he's looking, Maybe he 

2556
02:04:21,360 --> 02:04:23,480
needs to learn how to do that. 
He's like, well, I got an 

2557
02:04:23,480 --> 02:04:25,840
admission to go kill 3 Dragons, 
but I need to learn how to do 

2558
02:04:25,840 --> 02:04:27,440
that first. 
I don't know how to kill 

2559
02:04:27,440 --> 02:04:29,840
Dragons. 
I don't want to just stab them 

2560
02:04:30,280 --> 02:04:32,560
because then it's going to be 
seen that they were stabbed and 

2561
02:04:32,560 --> 02:04:34,480
maybe that's not good enough. 
I mean, Drogon's too big for 

2562
02:04:34,480 --> 02:04:36,280
that now. 
I don't know that AI don't know 

2563
02:04:36,280 --> 02:04:39,040
that a faceless man could 
accomplish that task. 

2564
02:04:39,440 --> 02:04:41,360
Maybe they could, you know, make
themselves look like one of the 

2565
02:04:41,360 --> 02:04:44,240
dragon keepers with with a 
glamour with their face changing

2566
02:04:44,240 --> 02:04:45,800
ability. 
Dragon wouldn't be fooled 

2567
02:04:45,800 --> 02:04:47,640
though, would they? 
We already know that we already 

2568
02:04:47,640 --> 02:04:52,360
we've seen Arya didn't fool Caso
the seal even though she looked 

2569
02:04:52,600 --> 02:04:55,480
extremely different. 
Cause animals have too good a 

2570
02:04:55,480 --> 02:04:58,120
sense of smell. 
Animal senses work really well. 

2571
02:04:58,680 --> 02:05:02,720
As an aside by the way, that's 
an interesting connective tissue

2572
02:05:02,840 --> 02:05:05,800
between skin changers and 
faceless men. 

2573
02:05:06,280 --> 02:05:09,640
You can't a human human eyes 
can't detect that is kind of 

2574
02:05:09,640 --> 02:05:12,680
glamours and and stuff, but 
noses can. 

2575
02:05:12,920 --> 02:05:17,000
A skin changer, a human using 
this the nose of a wolf or a dog

2576
02:05:17,000 --> 02:05:18,920
or something like that would be 
able to tell the difference. 

2577
02:05:19,120 --> 02:05:20,640
So that's kind of cool. 
I don't know that that's 

2578
02:05:20,640 --> 02:05:23,320
certainly not relevant here. 
I just kind of literally just 

2579
02:05:23,320 --> 02:05:24,240
occurred to me in the moment 
here. 

2580
02:05:24,760 --> 02:05:29,760
But in conclusion here my 
friends, King Aegon the Third 

2581
02:05:29,760 --> 02:05:32,680
lived another four years after 
the death of the last dragon. 

2582
02:05:32,680 --> 02:05:35,160
He died in 157, the last dragon 
in 153. 

2583
02:05:35,520 --> 02:05:39,080
It may be that his those last 
four years of his were when his 

2584
02:05:39,080 --> 02:05:42,680
attempts to bring the dragon 
back were the most sincere or he

2585
02:05:42,680 --> 02:05:45,640
tried the hardest, but we can't 
be sure about that. 

2586
02:05:46,000 --> 02:05:48,680
It would be the again, the 
absolute talk of the realm as it

2587
02:05:48,680 --> 02:05:51,560
had been before, maybe more so 
once they died. 

2588
02:05:52,000 --> 02:05:54,440
Boy, that talk was big. 
Boy, the talk was loud. 

2589
02:05:54,440 --> 02:05:56,760
And again, that is like, how did
they handle it? 

2590
02:05:56,760 --> 02:06:00,040
Did they toll bells? 
Like the bells toll for the 

2591
02:06:00,040 --> 02:06:01,680
death of a king? 
Do they toll the bells for the 

2592
02:06:01,680 --> 02:06:03,160
death of the last dragon? 
Or is that something they kind 

2593
02:06:03,160 --> 02:06:06,320
of just want to like let that 
pass by unnoticed even though 

2594
02:06:06,320 --> 02:06:07,720
everyone's going to notice it 
anyway? 

2595
02:06:08,400 --> 02:06:10,120
You don't need to draw attention
to that. 

2596
02:06:10,160 --> 02:06:12,480
Everyone is going to pay 
attention to it regardless. 

2597
02:06:13,120 --> 02:06:17,400
Every Tavern in Market Square 
would gossip about this realm 

2598
02:06:17,400 --> 02:06:20,160
wide, if not worldwide. 
I mean the rumors would be going

2599
02:06:20,200 --> 02:06:21,760
everywhere. 
People would be hearing about it

2600
02:06:21,760 --> 02:06:25,160
in Ash Eye, People would be 
hearing about it in ET Lang. 

2601
02:06:25,160 --> 02:06:27,280
Like the wildest, farthest away 
places. 

2602
02:06:27,280 --> 02:06:29,440
It's worldwide news, global 
news. 

2603
02:06:30,160 --> 02:06:32,120
It'd be funny to people who 
hearing the news that maybe 

2604
02:06:32,120 --> 02:06:34,200
still have Dragons really far to
the east or something like that 

2605
02:06:34,200 --> 02:06:35,000
like that. 
We got Dragons. 

2606
02:06:35,000 --> 02:06:36,840
What do they mean extinct 
suckers? 

2607
02:06:37,080 --> 02:06:38,680
Don't they know how to take care
of their Dragons? 

2608
02:06:39,320 --> 02:06:41,680
Or maybe they're more 
knowledgeable and they're like, 

2609
02:06:41,680 --> 02:06:44,920
yeah, well, they didn't handle 
the ebb and flow properly of 

2610
02:06:45,120 --> 02:06:46,800
magical tides. 
We do. 

2611
02:06:46,800 --> 02:06:48,840
We know our magical knowledge 
wasn't destroyed. 

2612
02:06:48,840 --> 02:06:50,400
Our dragon keepers weren't wiped
out. 

2613
02:06:50,400 --> 02:06:53,840
Baylor didn't burn our books. 
It's funny to think too, that 

2614
02:06:53,840 --> 02:06:56,480
amongst all the rumors told in 
these Taverns and elsewhere, 

2615
02:06:56,480 --> 02:06:59,200
that maybe even the truth was 
spoken unwittingly, like someone

2616
02:06:59,200 --> 02:07:01,920
might have the right answer or 
or combination of answers. 

2617
02:07:01,920 --> 02:07:03,120
There's just no way to verify 
it. 

2618
02:07:03,920 --> 02:07:06,400
And again, this is the realm 
that Deron the first, the young 

2619
02:07:06,400 --> 02:07:08,400
dragon inherited, A realm where 
everyone's talking about the 

2620
02:07:08,400 --> 02:07:10,320
death of the Dragons. 
Everyone's questioning whether 

2621
02:07:10,320 --> 02:07:12,160
House Targaryen is still 
powerful enough. 

2622
02:07:12,640 --> 02:07:16,240
So you could tell his actions 
were very geared towards 

2623
02:07:16,240 --> 02:07:19,080
speaking to that. 
Now here's something else to 

2624
02:07:19,080 --> 02:07:22,080
consider going forward. 
Maybe a last couple of questions

2625
02:07:22,080 --> 02:07:24,320
that that have no answers, or at
least don't have answers yet. 

2626
02:07:24,840 --> 02:07:28,040
Danny's Dragons might all pass 
during the story. 

2627
02:07:28,040 --> 02:07:32,400
They may all three die. 
Either way, they are again kind 

2628
02:07:32,400 --> 02:07:37,080
of the new last Dragons. 
Maybe only one of them will 

2629
02:07:37,080 --> 02:07:38,560
survive. 
Maybe it will grow weak as 

2630
02:07:38,560 --> 02:07:41,360
magical forces ship. 
Maybe we'll get examples from 

2631
02:07:41,360 --> 02:07:43,560
them that teach us more about 
these other last Dragons, these 

2632
02:07:43,560 --> 02:07:46,160
nameless last Dragons, that 
maybe one day we'll have a name.

2633
02:07:46,320 --> 02:07:48,000
Fire and blood too, may give 
that to us. 

2634
02:07:48,720 --> 02:07:52,800
Maybe we'll see one of Danny's 
Dragons killed by poison sheep 

2635
02:07:52,960 --> 02:07:55,640
and that will be like, oh, that 
is possible, that can happen. 

2636
02:07:55,800 --> 02:07:59,800
That maybe helps us explain how 
the other Dragons were killed. 

2637
02:07:59,800 --> 02:08:02,760
The adults, the younger ones, 
it's easier to figure out. 

2638
02:08:02,760 --> 02:08:05,160
I mean, they're it's not so hard
to kill a younger dragon. 

2639
02:08:05,160 --> 02:08:06,440
We're not looking for answers 
there. 

2640
02:08:06,440 --> 02:08:08,800
We're only looking for whether 
it actually happened. 

2641
02:08:09,480 --> 02:08:13,640
But this, it's one of many 
possibilities that could come up

2642
02:08:13,640 --> 02:08:19,240
and give us more clues as to 
what happened during this end of

2643
02:08:19,840 --> 02:08:23,760
the Dragon's phase that began 
150 ish years before Song of Ice

2644
02:08:23,760 --> 02:08:26,640
and Fire. 
The dragonless times of 

2645
02:08:26,640 --> 02:08:30,720
Westeros. 
Westeros, the time when things 

2646
02:08:30,720 --> 02:08:32,640
were different, the time of 
Dunkin Egg, they lived in the 

2647
02:08:32,640 --> 02:08:33,920
middle of it. 
They didn't realize how 

2648
02:08:33,920 --> 02:08:34,960
different it was. 
Because you can't. 

2649
02:08:34,960 --> 02:08:38,800
It's hard to do anything but see
your times as normal because 

2650
02:08:38,800 --> 02:08:40,320
they're the only experience you 
have. 

2651
02:08:40,840 --> 02:08:44,680
But we can look at these 
different eras and see these 

2652
02:08:44,680 --> 02:08:49,080
huge differences and draw many 
fun conclusions and many fun 

2653
02:08:49,080 --> 02:08:52,400
theories. 
And we'll have to see what comes

2654
02:08:52,400 --> 02:08:57,520
next in this saga of the many 
whodunits, the what done it and 

2655
02:08:57,520 --> 02:09:00,000
all these other mysteries 
associated with the last 

2656
02:09:00,000 --> 02:09:03,080
Dragons. 
Trivia question was how many 

2657
02:09:03,080 --> 02:09:05,600
eggs did the last dragon lay? 
Five. 

2658
02:09:05,960 --> 02:09:07,400
It was not 0. 
Not a trick question. 

2659
02:09:07,400 --> 02:09:08,880
The last dragon did lay five 
eggs. 

2660
02:09:08,880 --> 02:09:10,520
And those those eggs did not 
hatch. 

2661
02:09:10,720 --> 02:09:13,640
Those were weakened, apparently 
weaker eggs, shriveled, maybe 

2662
02:09:13,640 --> 02:09:16,320
lighter. 
So maybe not some of the eggs 

2663
02:09:16,320 --> 02:09:20,720
that ended up with like on the 
sun to buy the sun chaser. 

2664
02:09:20,720 --> 02:09:23,000
You know, Alyssa farming was 
probably aren't among the three 

2665
02:09:23,000 --> 02:09:26,720
of her five or those five were 
not among her three came from 

2666
02:09:26,720 --> 02:09:29,440
her three rather and etcetera. 
So these these might have been 

2667
02:09:29,440 --> 02:09:32,840
notably different looking just 
because they came from this 

2668
02:09:32,840 --> 02:09:35,960
weaker dragon. 
But we don't have certainty on 

2669
02:09:35,960 --> 02:09:38,480
that because we haven't seen 
these are the five that came 

2670
02:09:38,480 --> 02:09:40,360
from that. 
We just don't know. 

2671
02:09:40,760 --> 02:09:42,880
But it'd be interesting to to 
discover that one day. 

2672
02:09:42,880 --> 02:09:45,360
See, Hey, these are shriveled 
dragon eggs that are that are 

2673
02:09:45,560 --> 02:09:47,600
turned to stone. 
Those must be from that last 

2674
02:09:47,600 --> 02:09:49,960
dragon. 
We do have an episode on Deron 

2675
02:09:49,960 --> 02:09:52,120
the first. 
We have an episode on the comet,

2676
02:09:52,560 --> 02:09:55,720
we have an episode on many 
episodes on fire and blood that 

2677
02:09:55,720 --> 02:09:58,000
would be related to this off and
on. 

2678
02:09:58,000 --> 02:10:00,680
We of course have Valerie read 
us for Sam chapters. 

2679
02:10:00,880 --> 02:10:06,120
The Sam Marwin chapter, we did 
an episode that referred to 

2680
02:10:07,200 --> 02:10:10,400
Jakin's presence, the Faceless 
man's presence in that final 

2681
02:10:10,400 --> 02:10:13,000
scene where Sam is talking about
everything he saw north of the 

2682
02:10:13,000 --> 02:10:15,480
wall, while Marwin is talking 
about Dragons and killing 

2683
02:10:15,480 --> 02:10:18,320
Dragons and all that, all right 
in front of a faceless man. 

2684
02:10:18,480 --> 02:10:20,840
So that's pretty important too, 
right? 

2685
02:10:20,840 --> 02:10:23,680
All these, a lot of these things
bleed into other areas. 

2686
02:10:23,840 --> 02:10:30,080
So check those out and do your 
own thinking and questioning and

2687
02:10:30,080 --> 02:10:32,840
let us know what you think. 
I'm always curious to know what 

2688
02:10:32,840 --> 02:10:37,800
you guys have for us and whether
it differs or agrees. 

2689
02:10:38,200 --> 02:10:41,840
This is part of the fun. 
Thanks to Nina for her add-ons 

2690
02:10:41,840 --> 02:10:42,920
and her great thoughts for this 
one. 

2691
02:10:42,920 --> 02:10:44,720
Helped me work through some 
ideas and had a lot of great 

2692
02:10:44,720 --> 02:10:48,560
thoughts of her own. 
Thanks to Joey and Jesse for our

2693
02:10:48,840 --> 02:10:51,080
music. 
We have lovely theme music that 

2694
02:10:51,080 --> 02:10:54,120
plays in various parts of our 
episodes, sometimes at the end, 

2695
02:10:54,120 --> 02:10:56,760
always at the beginning. 
And thank you to Michael 

2696
02:10:56,760 --> 02:10:59,440
Klarfeld for the maps you see 
behind us and in many of our 

2697
02:10:59,440 --> 02:11:01,400
episodes and including our video
intro. 

2698
02:11:01,400 --> 02:11:04,520
Michael Klarfeld's work can be 
found at claradox.de. 

2699
02:11:04,520 --> 02:11:08,960
That's KLARADOX. 
Klar Raddox. 

2700
02:11:08,960 --> 02:11:11,680
Yes, Klar Raddox. 
Yeah, it's down in the 

2701
02:11:11,680 --> 02:11:13,000
description. 
Don't listen to me. 

2702
02:11:13,000 --> 02:11:15,480
Just find the button there and 
and click on it that way. 

2703
02:11:16,080 --> 02:11:20,200
On behalf of Ashea, I'm Aziz. 
We'll see you next time for 

2704
02:11:20,200 --> 02:11:22,760
more, and you know what to do in
the meantime. 

2705
02:11:23,160 --> 02:11:25,720
Valar, Ririus.