All right. I I think we will now move into
a slightly more spoilery zone, which means we will talk about
the ending of June book one, and we'll also move into some stuff
that happens in June Book four. Personally, I don't think people
should worry all that much about June spoilers because like the
June books spoil themselves with the little quotes at the start
of each chapter and it's about prescience.
And who should we cover first? Aziz, do you want to talk about
Bran or Jon or Aya? And Aaliyah?
What are you feeling? Yeah, let's, let's wrap up some
of those ones, because those are kind of continuations of things
we had already started talking about.
I think one of the interesting things about Jon is he's sort of
an accidental example of what Paul is engineered to be.
Whereas he's a combination of bloodlines, whereas John just
kind of accidentally ended up as a child of Ice and Fire.
It wasn't necessarily the result of years of breeding.
But Rhaegar had a plan. He wanted to have the three
children and he thought he was following in some prophesied
thing. But it's not clear exactly what
he was doing. You know, he's he certainly said
he his is the Song of Ice and Fire.
You know, from Danny's vision we see that and that is apparently
being said to his first born son, the one that's killed.
But then he's who he's wrong about.
And so so this stuff is a little more murky in A Song of Ice and
Fire, but the things are all there.
All these, like people trying to have a child of certain
bloodlines, combining certain bloodlines and it being for
reasons laid out long before. And there's some of that with
Bran too, except that he's maybe a better example of something
that just happened. Even though you pointed to some
examples of the Starks capturing magical bloodlines in the past
and maybe that's why they have Warg blood now, it's hard to
argue that was some sort of engineering thing where they
were like specifically trying to acquire that because of they.
They probably did it because it was power, not because of they
need had some goal from the for their descendants, which is
possible for or or at least spelled out for Egon.
Bran is more like the thing with Bloodraven and and looking for
who the next Green Seer is. Like who is born amongst this
population that has the right traits.
So George did both things where some people are born with the
traits and emerge, whereas other ones are are engineered ish.
And that goes to what we were saying before about how he likes
to pack in multiple variations on these core fantasy sci-fi
ideas. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Magic power comes to them through different angles.
Brands more of a homegrown natural green seer, whereas John
is is a deliberate result of Rhaegar trying to unite Ice and
Fire. It seems I I I tend, I tend to
think that Rhaegar probably got a vision from Bloodraven saying,
hey Rhaegar like you should marry a Stark to unite Ice and
Fire and fulfill the prophecy. Because that's what's so funny
about all the Prophecy stuff. Like Amon talks about, you know
how he and Rhaegar were interested in prophecy and and
you know Jeharis and and and I think Ares the First probably as
well. But we never get direct
acknowledgement that Bloodraven himself was interested in
prophecy. I think it must be true because
it makes all of his actions make sense.
But it's so funny that you know there's no mention of like
Bloodraven trying to communicate with Amon despite Bloodraven's
interest in prophecy and Amon's interest in prophecy.
It's like, I don't know it, it's so puzzling and it makes me
wonder if like the Old Gods and the and the Weewood connection,
the Bloodraven might alter his behaviour or might alienate him
from the from the other Targaryens.
Bloodraven is such an interesting character, but I
think we've mentioned, you know, the obvious similarities between
Paul and John both as these, you know, lost Scions.
And both of them have a bloodline revelation.
So spoiler for June, book one. But Paul finds out that his
mother Jessica is the daughter of the Baron Vladimir Harkonnen.
So Paul finds out that he is partly A Harkonnen as well as an
Atrades. And that's similar to how John
will eventually find out that he is the son of a Targaryen as
well as a Stark. So you know, both Paul and John,
they have both the the ice and the fire.
The two opposite families are united in one in the hero.
Yeah, Bloodraid himself is that thing too.
He was a united sort of of old God's family and A and a
Targaryen father. So it's kind of passing down
that legacy or continuing that legacy in a sense or that also
speaks to before what we said about the possibility that
there's going to be secrets revealed about maybe history of
the Starks. There may be some some boogeyman
hiding in their ancestry as well that maybe fits this theme as
well. Yeah, for sure.
But Bloodraven almost makes me think of Hassimir Fenring.
As in like Bloodraven is someone who's super powerful and who you
almost might think could have fulfilled the prophecy in
himself in some sense. But but no, he's he's like, he's
super powerful, but he's relegated to the sidelines.
And that's sort of similar to Hassimir Fenring, who was like
almost a Quizzat's hat. Iraq, but not quite.
And he's powerful, but he doesn't quite get to take the
stage himself, and he allows others to exist on that central
stage instead instead of him, which is, I don't know, maybe
there's something though. That makes me think a little bit
to jump into a a fantasy series that we haven't mentioned yet is
Wheel of Time Where spent a long time the show does it much
quicker but in in the books it takes a long time for them to
reveal who the the true chosen went.
In The Dragon Reborn there's all these different candidates.
It could be this person. It could be and and then they
reveal that that's been going on for for decades, that people
every once in a while there's like, oh this could be the
Dragon reborn. It's like, oh Nope, that wasn't
them. And it's it's a riffing on the
concept of a Messiah or the false Messiah or the false
prophet. But George and Frank Herbert,
they just have a a much different twist on on how to do
this. And especially George, because
he's just writing a larger scale story, uses a lot of different
variations of it. Where it's the centerpiece of
later in Dune, I suppose you could say or early and later I
guess. Yeah, I I think there's
definitely an argument in Song of Ice and Fire and in June that
you know that there won't necessarily be a true hero, a
true hero of the prophecy who is the person who saves the world.
It's it's more just, you know the the idea of a hero is a
powerful idea that exists in every culture and eventually
someone will come along and be a central person in in saving the
world. And you know, perhaps we will
say that that person was the hero, but that's not necessarily
how the prophecies work. It's more of just an idea and
someone will happen to to fit it for better or for worse.
Like Dune never really gives us a completely conclusive answer
on who the quiz at Tatarak is, because you can argue that Paul
didn't quite fulfil his destiny and maybe later.
The 2nd is more the real person who changes the world and knows
everything and is super powerful like the quiz at Tatarak.
But then you know Duncan Idaho has arguably more of a claim to
being the quiz that's hat Iraq when spoiler Duncan gets
resurrected hundreds of times and and so and so Frank sort of
loses interest with the idea of there being one absolute mega
hero. Frank was interested in constant
change, and it's more the idea of the hero that is significant
than any one person fulfilling that role.
And I can see that happening with A Song of Ice and Fire too,
because like, there are already prophecies in A Song of Ice and
Fire that are fulfilled multiple times in different ways.
Like the whole, you know, waking a stone dragon can fit Daenerys
hatching her eggs from petrified stone eggs, but I think that
that also will connect to Jon Snow.
I think Jon Snow will be resurrected possibly in the
stone Winterfell crypts and will be a dragon in the sense that
he's a Targaryen who embraces his Targaryen identity.
So like already the prophecies, they can mean multiple things
simultaneously. So that's why I don't think
we'll have one Azor Rahai saving the world.
I I think that many people will be involved, which to its credit
the the Game of Thrones TV show that's sort of is where they
landed on the prophecy. Melisandre at one points says
that I think that you know Jon Snow and Azora and Daenerys are
both the Prince that was promised.
They both have a role to play in this story, which I think was
kind of a cop out. But I think that it also does
capture something that may be true in the books, which is that
there are multiple heroes, not just one person who fits the
prophecy. I agree with that, yeah.
And then they have go and have Ari to deal the killing blow, to
throw another name in there, you know, and I could even see.
I mean, I don't think there's a boss other, but I could see
something even like that happening with Arya wielding
dark sister instead of the cat's paw dagger.
It'd be a similar kind of thing. But yeah, the this, this whole
united goal of of things being brought to them through memories
and through dreams or through prophecies is definitely a
uniting factor that fits what you're saying because it's
applying to multiple characters. You have Bran coming through it
by being discovered like he was born with the right traits and
they've chosen him because of that.
And maybe they're they've looked for other people and discarded
other candidates prior to that. And in the case of Danny, we we
discussed and John how their circumstances and dreams have
guided them and mentors. And there's connections and
parallels between these mentors. And yeah, and then the same
thing with Paul, except that for him is more of all these things
kind of combined. Whereas maybe you could say that
A Song of acid fire versions are like reflections of a a crystal
adding up to that one. Like a Septon's Crystal with
many facets. Yes indeed.
So so you mentioned Aya killing the Night King In Game of
Thrones season eight at the end of June, book one Aaliyah kills
Vladimir with a with a little knife just how Aya kills the
Night King with a knife. So both of them have a girl
using a little weapon to kill the bad guy in the end.
It doesn't. Doesn't she kill him with a
needle? Isn't it a needle with the?
In In Dune it's the gom jabbar needle.
And yeah, of course, which? Aria wields Needle.
Yeah, which is fantastic. That's cool.
Alia and Arya are even similar, sounding like name wise, you
know. And they both are the dark
sister. They are the sister that sort of
goes off on the strange path and strange mystical influences and
comes back changed and comes back touched and comes back as a
sort of scary, scary individual who no one's quite sure what to
deal with. And they are unique and they are
isolated and they are subject to dark forces.
And it's like, who is this person now?
Yeah, that sounds like both of them.
Yeah, that's great. And Aaliyah even has memories
that aren't hers, and which Arya gets a bit of that when she puts
on the little girl's face. She has memories of that girl,
of that ugly girl, and presumably that's not going to
be the only time this happens. So even that has a bit of
parallel the other people's memories.
Yeah, they, yeah, they both have have a variety of mystical
powers that no one else in the story has because Aya is both a
fatalist man and a skin changer. Aya skin changes a cat and sees
through a cat's eyes. So there's all these in in the
books and so there's there's all these unique powers that they
have that that make them very strange.
And they of course are the the sister of the heroic protagonist
in both stories. So big similarities there.
Don't the Face Dancers of Dune also acquire memories of people
when they duplicate them or copy them like the Faceless Men?
Isn't that also kind of a carry over?
It's complicated. The the face dances evolve so
that they, like, gain the ability.
They they gain new abilities that they didn't have before,
which I think allows them to retain memories in ways that
they couldn't before. Yeah, yeah, shape copiers who
not only copied the surface memories of their victims, but
the deepest thoughts and identity as well as a form of
immortality. And the Clay Laksu use face
dances to make themselves immortal, copying themselves
through face dancery. But then the face dances become
too powerful. And then they go rogue and
they're against the Clay Laksu. And then they have cat people
called Futas who observe them and come from outside the
universe. I'm not even going to get into
what happens in heritage. Yeah, the Face Dancers are like
kind of maybe the ultimate bad in the final book of Dune
because there's the many faced one who the honoured bat rays
are fleeing and it's it's a whole thing.
I mean, I mean there's sort of like.
Faced one? Really.
Oh yeah, it it's kind of like the great other and.
Many faced God. Yeah.
Geez. And then Daniel and Marty at the
very end of Chapter House are the author, self insert
characters, and they also simultaneously are Evolved Face
Dancers. So look, yeah, I'm we we're not
even gonna get into that. But there certainly are like
strong parallels between the Face Dancers and The Faceless
Man. Suffice to say, someone in the
live chat, Brian Shattuck just said that God Emperor has a
Brienne. And what what what Brian means
is that in book four, God Emperor of June, there's a
character called Siona who is, AI believe, a blonde woman who
is very tall and physically strong and physically tough and
is like not super smart but is super loyal and is like
well-intentioned. And it's interesting that Siona,
well, that's a huge parallel. So spoilers for book 4.
Ciona ends up playing a role in killing her Master.
Later, the second The God Emperor, Ciona ends up helping
in the downfall of the person to whom she is devoted.
And I think that is similar to the idea that Brienne might kill
Lady Stoneheart. Brienne is sworn to serve Catlin
and she's motivated by a loyalty to Catelyn.
But a lot of people speculate that Brienne might kill
Stoneheart, and I think that is quite likely.
So very similar to Siona helping kill Lato.
Oh, not Siona. Yeah, you're right.
Sorry. It's not Siona.
It is. What?
What's the bloody name?
It's not Siona. It is the fish speaker.
Nailer. Was it Nailer?
Might have been Nailer. All right, let's continue.
What should we discuss next? Should we discuss King Bran?
Sure, We'll do that. So.
Yeah. King, King, Bran.
Good one. Yeah, so at the end of Game of
Thrones season 8, Bran the omniscient tree boy God becomes
king. And it's a bit weird.
No one quite understands who Bran is or what he knows or what
his purpose is and what his destiny is and how it all
happened. And similarly, in book four the
the emperor of the universe is later the 2nd Atrades, who is a
giant worm God who lives for 4000 years and who does all
these sort of messed up tyrannical things for the
greater good, supposedly, which has similarities to Bloodraven,
who does these messed up things supposedly for the greater good.
So I've got to wonder, will King Bran really be a good thing for
Westeros? Or will King Bran be an immortal
omniscient tyrant who rules for thousands of years and messes
with everybody? What do you reckon, Aziz?
Well, I don't know that we'll find out.
I think he'll George will leave us ambiguous clues if it if it
does end in something like that. I think that even all the
lessons of power he's gonna have trade and it's a huge variety of
ways throughout the story. I don't think we're gonna look
on it as a great thing. I think we might look on it as
something that would be good for a while but will not be good in
the long run, like all these other power structures, all
these other things that wield so much power, especially putting
it in in one of individual. And yeah, I don't think we'll be
left with a feeling that it's going to go well in the long
term, even if it'll probably work out in the short term
because the the short term will have been so bad prior to the
settling of events at the end. And other other than that, it's
pretty hard to see though because what kind of a king is
he going to be? What kind of shape is the realm
going to be? Who else is going to be around?
Is it going to be a new form of government?
Are we going to get that far? I I wondered.
It seemed on one hand I see, it seems like there is a lot of
time for that because how long will it take for the others to
be defeated? And how much of the aftermath
are we going to see? George is a big fan of the
Scouring of the Shire and the way The Hobbit ended with a lot
of extra stuff at the end. And I kind of feel like he's
gonna do the same thing and not just end it.
Suddenly I he's gonna go into a a good bit of what happens after
a lot of the major events are resolved but not a, you know,
not for years worth. So the future is gonna have to
be shown to us in like, in terms of what we expect and not we're
not gonna actually see it, you know?
Part of me would kind of love it if there was like an epilogue to
A Song of Ice and Fire, which is Jon Snow returning from exile in
the North to come South and to kill his brother, King Bran.
Because King Bran has become obviously a puppet of the Old
God's weirwood hive mind consciousness, and John has to
like tragically execute his own brother, his own beloved
brother, because he needs to free Westeros from this magical
alien tyrant. That would be a bit George
Martinian, I think. Where would Emperor?
Yeah. Do you like the idea that Bran
might become like a meat puppet for Bloodraven?
No, I don't think Bloodraven has those kind of ambitions.
I mean maybe like in terms of if he needs to use him as a weapon,
I don't think he would have designs on afterwards because he
never really tried to enrich himself or do things for
himself. I don't think in terms of the
things we'd see someone would do if that's what their game end
game was. So yeah I fall on the side of no
on that one. I think Yamora he he he his
actions throughout his life mostly are about seem to be
about protecting. He might know about which which
which lines up with him knowing about the the prophecy from a
younger age. I I I think part of what makes.
Through Egon, through his dreams.
Blood Raven has that lion where he says, you know, there was a
brother I loved, there was a woman I desired it.
It it does highlight that Blood Raven does have these personal
desires. And I and I think we are invited
to wonder if Blood Raven's fanatical opposition to the
black fires was motivated not just by protecting the realm,
not just by protecting the prophetic Targaryen bloodline,
but also just by his personal beef with Bitter Steel and their
rivalry. Fierra C Star So I I think it is
like an open question like is Bloodraven really acting in
everyone's best interests or does he have personal desires
that he that he puts first? It's that love is the death of
duty thing. Yeah.
And I also love the idea that Bloodraven still has a
relationship with Shierra sea Star.
If Shierra sea Star is Quaith. I really like the idea of
Shierra sea Star being quaithe even though it's a bit tin
foily. Maybe their love endures, for
better or worse. So.
Yeah, I I somewhat take, I somewhat take that as him
expressing that's how he used to be, that's how he used to feel.
But who knows? That doesn't really speak to
what he feels now. Well, well, I mean, there's a
lot of like visual symbolism, similarities between Bloodraven
and Barrick. Because when we are introduced
to Barrack Dondarian in the books, he's sitting on a
weirwood throne. He has one eye.
He Does he have one? On a black cloak.
And yeah, he does. He has one on.
You're right. He is.
Yeah, he has a black cloak. He looks like a zombie.
He's all like half, half cave rotting and dead.
He's in a cave underground. So.
So Barrick is super similar to Bloodraven.
And I think part of the similarity is that Barrick has
lost his humanity. And Bloodraven, I think also has
lost a lot of his humanity because the man's a tree.
And, you know, when Bran talks to Bloodraven, he's like, are
you the crow? And Bloodraven's like, oh, I
guess I'm the crow. Long ago I was kind of a crow.
And, you know, a lot has been made of that quote arguing that
Bloodraven is not really Bloodraven.
But I think that, you know, part of the point is that Bloodraven
has lost his memories and his sense of, like, blood.
Bloodraven doesn't do anything that is very Targaryenny.
Like Bran does not know him as Brindon Rivers or as a Targaryen
bastard. Bran knows Bloodraven as the
Three Eyed Crow and and I think that that is what he is.
He has lost so much of his Targaryen identity.
He's lost so much of his soul and his emotion and he and he
really is largely just a goddamn tree and he's.
Part of a collective, yeah. So I suppose we can expect
something similar with Bran and and that's sort of what happens
with Lato the Second, the God Emperor, like he has the other
other memories of of lifetimes and lifetimes of other people's
experiences in his mind, and as a result he is no longer Lato
inside anymore. They start to bleed together
with him, don't they? Yeah, cooler thing.
And see that something like that maybe happening with Bran or or
maybe that's sort of vaguely what's what has happened with
Annie and her memories with her ancestors, sort of like calling
to her or whatever. We've got Joe Magician in the
live chat. Welcome, Joe Magician.
Oh, hey, Joe. Magician.
Joe Magician has many wonderful Song of Ice and Fire YouTube
videos. Everyone should go check out and
subscribe to Joe Magician as well as go on unlikely
describing history of Westeros as well.
Link in the description, but Joe Magician in the chat says that
the epilogue will be The Scouring of Slaver's Bay, like
the Scouring of the Shire, Lord of the Rings, where Good King
Dario will bring peace to Esos. Good King Dario that is heavily
foreshadowed. Do you think Dario is is
secretly Euron Aziz? Oh, of course.
Of course. Euron is is about 17 different
characters, including Cersei. And Benjen, who is, of course up
and down. Yeah, that's right.
But do you want to talk about like the Old Gods and the Benet
Jesuit and the whole sort of memory thing?
Sure. It's a good little we've we've
kind of touched on that a little bit here.
Let's, let's go deeper on that. It, it seems like one of the
main parallels is the a sort of a chosen 1:00-ish type figure
which Paul comes up in a different couple different ways
that way. Whereas this facet of an
intestong of ice and fire falls on Bran opposed to maybe Jon or
Danny, or maybe Arya and Bloodraven explains the rarity
here, and maybe doesn't go so far as to call him a Chosen one,
but a person of unusual skill that's necessary for victory.
But I'm not sure where you fall on that, whether it is more
distinctly, you know, you're the one or just the one right now.
Yeah, I I tend to think it's more of A1 right now, but I I
think it's so interesting how the Benet Jesuit and the Old
Gods are both defined by memories.
The Benet Jesuit Reverend Mothers, they become Reverend
Mothers by acquiring the genetic memories of all their female
ancestors. And it's that knowledge that
defines them and it's that knowledge that empowers their
schemes and their plans. And similarly the the Old Gods.
It seems that when a person dies, their soul goes into the
weirwood trees and goes into the Old Gods.
And the Old Gods are a store of memories and knowledge and the
children of the forest are connected to that and Bloodraven
is connected to that and that empowers their schemes and and
it and it's powerful, but it's also dangerous because it's
dehumanizing to be connected to all these other consciousnesses
apart from your own. It's interesting that the Benet
Jezerite alike that they are they are feminine.
They are like typically like nurturing force symbolically.
And the old gods are connected to trees and and nature, like
the children of the forest and nature elves, basically.
And yet Despite that sort of maternal, natural, nurturing
vibe, there's a sinister nature to the Bennett Jesuit and to the
weirwoods and the old gods. So it's this sort of horror of a
consciousness that is greater and older than yourself, the
horror of the hive mind. The ancient wisdom that just is
so much smarter than you are, it seems overwhelming.
Like, how could you possibly defeat such a thing Because it's
been around so long and knows so much.
It is part of the horror aspect. I think some of the horror
influence and maybe if you branch out into maybe somewhere
the real world influences are, is that these these guys both a
lot of through a lot of the Red Scare where communism was seen
kind of that way and a lot of ways of of being a hive mind of
where everybody's the same where if you don't have individuality
and that's where some of the sinister elements come.
Obviously Americans living in that era where overwhelmed with
anti communism stuff that was their main enemy, their main
boogeyman and then nuclear stuff came in a little later.
But those are both in Dune and and you know grand destructive
power exists in A Song of Ice and Fire.
And George has written a lot of his other stories that involve
like hive mind mind control type stuff, the the Harangan hive
minds of his thousand world setting.
They're all about mind control and slave races, and some of
those are engineered and then on the smaller scale, sung for
Leah, where he wrote after a breakup.
And the two characters, like one of them slowly, you know, joins
this like hive mind and he loses her to that.
He's tempted to join it too. And you know, so these are
things these authors both have lots of influences on, I think
and had written about elsewhere. It's like this is the the
culmination of of that. Having written about it and
thought about it so much they they placed it here in their
masterpieces. Yeah, well well George like all
great writers does his best writing after a break up.
But you noticed some similarities as as well I think
with the way that Paul is is tested.
Paul is given a deadly test by Gaius Mahayam to determine if he
has the the power and the inner strength sufficient to be the
chosen one. Which is so similar to how
Bloodraven tests Bran with Bran's flying dream, which he he
he's told to fly or die, and he sees these ice spikes with the
bones of other dreamers impaled upon them.
And so and so the the sort of wise but sort of sinister
magical mentor subjects the hero to a deadly test which they
survive. But there's there's something
messed up about how, you know, Bloodraven and Gaius are willing
to risk the lives of this child in order to find the powerful
Chosen One. Yeah.
Gets into the themes of like why real world human sacrifice would
happen. They would do it not for gain.
Usually the reason it was done was to prevent some sort of
mandate from revenge or outcome from heaven that was terrifying,
like the gods would punish them or something, you know?
It was. It was usually to stop something
horrible from happening, rather than which is happening here,
which is the exact same thing like, well, they're manipulating
Bran or Paul or whoever to stop something worse from happening,
according to them, you know. Yeah, yeah.
And ultimately, meddling with these powers may cause more harm
than good. We talked a bit about drugs in
both Song of Ice and Fire and Dune.
We mentioned like Spice and we mentioned weirwood paste.
And yeah, there's also the Water of Life drug in Dune, which sort
of sparks Paul's prescience and his and his psychic ability
increasing. And that's, yeah, that's really
similar to Bran eating the weirwood paste to open his mind.
And I think, I think we're just down to some sort of
miscellaneous points at this point.
Is there anything else you wanna jump to now?
One one other thing about Brand, just either reiterate or re
emphasize. Annie and Paul both had their
long harrowing journey in the desert, which is a parallel
also. Of course it's like a parallel
to some real world religious stuff.
But that aside, Brad had a similar journey.
It just wasn't in the desert. He had a harrowing beyond the
wall, nearly died to several from several different things,
nearly starved, had to eat human flesh and didn't realize it.
You know all these other things, which is a marker that they're
on a similar journey of gotta suffer to become a hero, and
then you're strong enough to do to face the even bigger
challenge that affects everyone. Yeah, where it's gonna end, I
guess we don't know in this case yet, but we have a vague, a
pretty strong general idea. Bran eats of the tree to acquire
knowledge, so all that biblical stuff is in there.
Yes, seasons and climate and ecology are themes in both
stories because in Dune they want to transform the deserts of
Arakis into a more hospitable climate.
And in Westeros the seasons are irregular, which creates this
challenge to survive. And the George Martin has said
that at the end of A Song of Ice and Fire, the Seasons, the
irregular seasons, will be resolved.
So perhaps they will, you know, come into balance and regularity
similar to Iraqis becoming more hospitable.
That makes sense. That's cool.
A big part of those stories, you get the others and the whites
versus the splice of pretty different context.
But still blue eyes, You know, Big deal.
Very important. We mentioned the Maesters, the
sort of academic, academic, smart people who serve the Lords
but might sometimes plot against them being similar to the
Mentats in Dune, who were the smart mathematical giga brains
who serve Lords sook doctors. There's one at a time too, which
is kind of, you know, like, yeah.
They're they're trained at a school and then they're
distributed to the Lords and some people suspect plots and
machinations. And Ben, a Jesuit, also these
smart, capable people who were distributed to Lords, but some
people suspect them of conspiracies and manipulations.
They're all one gender, obviously.
That maesters were one gender, and the Bennett Jesuit are all
one gender, right? Yeah, yeah, I I I guess the
closest thing A Song of Ice and Fire has to an all female order
is the silent sisters who are intriguing.
Did. And maybe we should talk about
just some of the deeper fundamental, like sort of moral
messages and thematic messages of the story.
I I, I feel that, you know, Dune is very much about saying that
hey, like superheroes are bad messiahs and leaders are
potentially catastrophic, like we should not follow heroic
leaders. Whereas I feel that Asung of Ice
and Fire, like Asung of Ice and Fire, definitely questions and
complicates the tropes of heroism.
But I I think that ultimately George does love the romantic
tropes of of heroes being heroic and I think Brienne is a great
example of that. George loves Brienne's heroism
and and her willingness to fight for what's right and John's
willingness to fight for what's right.
I don't think the ending of A Song of Ice and Fire will be We
were stupid for following John and we were stupid for following
Daenerys and and Brienne I I I think that George does value
their heroism in a way that Frank Herbert does not value
heroism. I think that Frank Herbert
values more cold, rational, cunning and enlightenment and
thinking on a higher plane in a way that George does not.
Yeah, I think that's a that's a pretty insightful way to put it.
I think. And and I think George sometimes
gets accused of being too grim, but there's always these lights
within this darkness that he paints.
Like you said, on's a good example.
Ned's a good example, Brienne's a good example.
These characters do good things that they suffer consequences or
just not unrealistic about the fates of people that do good.
He also shows how those things carry forward even without those
people's lives continuing. Like like Ned and presumably
some of these other characters will also die and will be.
Their memories will matter to those that continue those that
don't. Yeah, yeah, Call me an optimist,
but I think that George Martin has a better hope of concluding
and ending his series because I I I think George Martin is more
conventional in his storytelling.
Like, like George is very much questioning and complicating
tropes. But he ultimately, I think, is
writing a story about heroism and and goodness triumphing over
corruption and despair. And that is not what Frank
Herbert does with June. Frank Herbert in June is is
insatiably interested in rationally rethinking and
reframing and recontextualizing situations and accepting no
conclusion. Frank and June will accept no
status quo, will accept no ending because life for him is
all about new beginnings and new discoveries and and questioning
everything constantly. So both June and Asung of Ice
and Fire are unfinished series currently, at least in my view.
Some people, well, no, they are both unfinished series.
So I so I yeah, I I tend to think that George might be able
to stick some kind of a landing whereas Frank Herbert I think
with Chapter House did not. There's also I think
similarities in sort of the structure of the series in how
both series started out with like 3 books that were well
received and fairly action-packed.
And then the 4th book and the 5th book become a lot more
meandering and a lot more indulgent and sort of
philosophical and introducing new characters and plot lines.
I I I think that both Frank and George, they got a little bit
too indulgent and undisciplined in introducing more and more
stuff. And I think that's part of why
they haven't finished their series in that sense.
They have a similar style of writing, I think.
Yeah, it could be. They're maybe just more
interested in the process than or the journey than destination
in a lot of ways, 'cause they're writing entire worlds.
And that's that conflicts with writing a story.
Not just worlds, but universes. Especially given, in George's
case, used to view the story as, you know what you the history
and whatever's in there is supposed to serve the story.
But that was before his his work became a franchise and when
those other world building details became valuable, whereas
they would just be fun in most stories.
Yeah, that's true. It it's changed for him.
So the picture and the the opportunity has changed for him.
I'm not sure that was ever the case for Frank because if you
know he got his books were adapted, they achieve this level
not during his life. I mean, Dune is still being
remade constantly historically speaking and doing well, but
Frank's not there to see it, whereas or just having a bit of
a different peak. Yeah, yeah.
I I think you make a good point that like both George and Frank,
they had major popular adaptations, screen adaptations
of their work while they were still writing the book series.
And I think for both Frank and George, that gave them a huge
commercial incentive to make a whole bunch more Dune and make a
whole bunch more Game of Thrones.
And I think that ironically, that may have prevented both of
them from concluding their series at a certain point.
Frank Herbert in interviews said that I will not write more Dune
books. He said that those three, that
those first three Dune books, that was it, that was all there
would be. And and then because of the
success of Dune and the popularity of the movie and
stuff, that's that's why he wrote book four and then book 5
and book 6. So, and I think in a funny sort
of similar way, it's the success of the Game of Thrones TV show
that has largely distracted George from finishing the books
and has perhaps even encouraged him to be overly perfectionist
and to be overly indulgent with the later books that he's
writing. So, So, in a really ironic way,
the the mainstream success of the series may have prevented
the series from having conclusions.
Yeah, isn't that funny? And it's also bit of a parallel,
like for different reasons. But George initially planned his
story to be a trilogy. It wasn't because of the TV show
that he expanded it. Obviously that expansion
happened earlier, but it's funny to think that Frank also was
gonna stop after three books and expanded it beyond and just
George. His he His plans changed before
he got to that point, but it was still something they had in
common about the way they conceived it initially.
Yeah, Karl Karl, snark in the live chat, says that as hard as
George Martin's characters have it, they never give up.
They want to live and win the day, no matter how flawed their
personal philosophy. And he says that there are no
nihilists in A Song of Ice and Fire.
They all follow their passions and and yeah, I I think that's
another. That's a great way to say it
because because the characters in Dune are not like that.
Like like the characters in Dune do wrestle with similar ideas of
like love versus duty with like later the Second's love for Hui
Nori and all of that. But like the the Dune books
almost always land on the side of be a hard ass Machiavellian
rationalist. The only way to survive is to
embrace the harsh rationalist perspective.
Follow your brain, not your heart, is often, I think, the
message of Dune. I I think Frank Herbert sort of
softened a little bit in his later books and he suddenly ends
Chapter House with with a more emotional, human side.
But I I think overall Dune is a lot more harsh and like,
rationalistic than A Song of Ice and Fire, which is ultimately
very human and emotional and romantic and full of heart.
Yeah, well said. I totally agree with that.
I think it is. I mean, even without having seen
the ending yet, I think we can agree that there are more
positive portrayals of relationships and positive
outlooks. And the metaphor I used before
was lights in the darkness and a different outlook.
You, like you say more. Herbridge maybe is more focused
on surviving like you said, whereas maybe George isn't as
obsessed with surviving. Yeah.
Whereas just a good life is more valuable than surviving.
Like eking out a few extra years isn't just like, what is?
What is that? Again, the Mary Mazdor lesson.
What is a few extra years worth if those are bad years?
If you're if you're suffering for those, did you really want
those years, right? Yeah, I think that's a fantastic
point. Cause 'cause like Frank Herbert
in Dune is very interested in like survival of the human
species as the absolute priority.
And he has this very sort of like evolutionary biological
perspective where he's like, you know, it's about the survival of
the species and our evolution in order to continue.
George Martin is not so much into that.
George Martin is more interested in like preservation of the
human spirit of of like, yes, healthy human emotions and
goodness and and and I think that George Mardon in in a funny
way like the the absolute survival of the human race is is
not his priority. I don't think George Mardon in A
Song of Ice on Fire fears the extinction of humanity quite in
the same way that Frank Herbert does.
That's a great way to put it, yeah.
Or to frame it, yeah. Yeah, which, which obviously,
you know, we're we're speculating about an unfinished
series. You know, I think we we'll learn
a lot more of this when humanity faces an apocalyptic threat from
the White Walkers in the later books.
But yeah, I I think Frank and George have a very different
priorities in that sense as well.
Like 2 examples that George uses to really drive this point home.
One of them is very straightforward because it's
almost like a a moral Riddle playing out right in front of
you. And it's pretty clear who he
thinks the person that's right is.
And that's Davos arguing with Stannis over Cedric Storm.
There's there's very little doubt in the reader's mind who's
right there. And he's.
And even though Stannis is like, yeah, but the whole world could
depend on it. He's like, yeah, but dad was
like, yeah, but it's wrong. This is a child like it's
definitely. He's like, yeah.
What's the world? What about a one?
What's one child worth over the case Like he's like everything
And you're like, yeah, Davos is right everything, you know.
And and then another one is like when Tywin's like, well, what's
what's worse, 10 killing 10,000 men in battle or a few men at
dinner and Tyrians doesn't know what to say to that but you're
left thinking yeah, but that's you're wrong about that that's
not not to mention it's not really what happened about with
the Red Wedding. Thousands of people were
slaughtered at dinner but that but let's say Tywin was being
honest there. You'd still be, like morally
uncomfortable. That's like, I don't know if
that's true though. You know, like just so the bad
guys are. I mean, not the Tywin and Santis
are anywhere near the same type of character.
But Stannis was clearly flirting with the the moral fork in the
road that is is, at least from George's point of view, I think
is clearly defined. You may disagree you you out
there might disagree with with Stannis and Davos there, you
might disagree with Tywin. You might agree with Tywin.
But I don't think, I don't think there's much doubt on who George
agrees with. And I think George definitely
agrees with Davos. And George definitely doesn't
agree with Tywin 'cause like you said, and I think you put it
really well, it's about preserving the soul of humanity
rather than the quantity or totality of humanity.
Yeah, yeah, I I think that is such a good point about Stannis
and Edrick Storm. I I think that moment is the
heart of A Song of Ice and Fire in a lot of ways like it.
It's that idea of you know, will you sacrifice A literal innocent
human child for the sake of winning and even for the sake of
saving the realm and and and yeah, as you say, the answer is
no, you should not. Like we should not sacrifice our
soul for anything. It it would be better for us to
go extinct than for us to sacrifice our souls and our
compassion. Whereas in Dune, the message of
Dune is you should absolutely sacrifice your human compassion
for the sake of survival, because that's what The God
Emperor later does in book four, he he oppresses humanity cruelly
for 3000 years for the sake of our survival.
And you know, even Paul Paul's jihad, in which he kills
billions of people and sterilizes entire planets, I
mean it it it's sort of framed as a bad thing, but like, but
like kind of not as well like it.
Like, it was just a necessary part of his ascension.
And in the conversation Paul has with Lato in book three, Lato
says that, yeah, you, you committed a genocide and killed
trillions of people and you didn't go far enough, is what
Lato says in book three, Lato tells Paul.
You you were too much of A pussy to do what was necessary in
completely subjugating the world.
So it's like genocide was not. It was not enough.
And so it's like, Oh, my God, Frank.
Evan, Like, you know, George would rather sacrifice humanity
than than kill one bastard boy. But Frank is entirely willing to
subjugate a universe for the sake of our survival.
So, yeah, that that may be the key, the, the heart of the
difference between George Martin and Frank Herbert.
That's pretty. Good.
Yeah. I think I, I, I hadn't thought
about this nearly as much. I like how much we've gotten
into it, just kind of naturally during this discussion.
Yeah, this is someone Lucas Hunt in the live chat says who is
Tywin Lannister's parallel in Dune?
I would say the closest parallel to Tywin Lannister is Goddamn
Lato the Second, the God Emperor of Dune.
Like Dune. Book Four is like what if Tywin
was the Emperor of the universe? Like that is what Book Four is
like because Lato is the ultimate Machiavellian.
I will sacrifice everything for the survival.
And I mean you know Tywin is more self interested, Tywin is
more proud and self interested and he's got daddy issues.
But, but in terms of like make sacrificing anything to win and
in terms of like making those, you know what is killing 100 men
at dinner compared to killing 1000 on the battlefield like
that is something that later God Emperor would say so.
Tywin absolutely sacrificed the souls of his all his children
like in in that sense. Like he made them all.
They all turned out serious issues because of his goals,
right. Like that's very these are like,
you can draw a line from one to the other.
And his pride, yeah. Yeah, I think that we should
wrap this up shortly. This was a wonderful chat.
I think we've covered a lot of interesting crowd.
Yeah, I I had like 3 quickies. Quick fun ones.
We could. Oh yeah, absolutely Wanted.
To wrap up with some miscellaneous is if that's cool.
Yeah, but for that we we'll spend some time answering the
last of the Super chats, so if anyone's got anything they
desperately want us to chat about, let us know.
But yeah, well, let's finish up with some fun, miscellaneous
things. So one I think is Duncan Idaho
and Duncan the tall. I mean Duncan is not the not a
super rare name, but it it's a kind of an odd name to be in A
Song of Ice and Fire. Now both theories are noted for
not really going to at first, at least with using a lot of
familiar names. In George's case, he uses ones
that are just slightly different, like Joffrey instead
of Jeffrey, or you Ned Nedar Edard instead of Edward.
You know, like there's so many examples like that and it's long
away some fire. Yeah.
Whereas Dune uses all these biblical names and also a lot of
like Middle Eastern names that aren't as familiar to a lot of
Western readers but still are earth names for Duncan and
Duncan. They have a lot in common
besides their name too. Yeah, I think I saw some funny
tweet that was about how like, you know, June is like, you
know, there's a character called Tayeka, Nick and Shidom and and
and all these wild names. And there's a guy called like
Fred or George, like Paul. You know, it's kind of funny the
different vibes they use for the languages.
There's a wildling named Halleck and a Heron.
The Black's father was also named Halleck.
Halleck Horror. I don't know if that might be a
a nod to Gurney. Yeah, it might just be Gurney
Halleck. Halleck I don't.
Know. I don't know.
Is Halleck a common name? I don't.
I don't know any Hallecks.
I googled Halleck like 15 minutes ago in advance of this
little note and I just there's a couple and it comes up a couple
times, but it's not. Yeah, it doesn't seem very
common or famous for much, so I feel like it's probably
connected at least. You know, maybe a nod.
Yeah, cool. It's interesting how Dragons
seem to be involved in the creation of Valyrian steel.
You know Song of Ice and fire, which is like the crucial
weapon. And in Dune, sandworms are the
source of Chris knives, which are the important weapons like
Valyrian steel. And also sandworms make the
spice which is the all important drug.
So like the the the big powerful monster is the source of like
tools and and weapons and power as well.
That's true. That's pretty cool.
Yeah. I hadn't.
I hadn't thought about the the Chris knife and Valyrian steel
combo. I had noticed the pale white
glow as and noticed that would be a parallel to Dawn and the
worthiness to wield it, which is a parallel to Dawn.
But that's not really an direct influence.
That's more of a recurring trope and mythology of the worthiness
to wield, like, you know, Excalibur or Yolnir or any
number of famous weapons that you have to be of certain
character or whatever to wield. Yeah, yeah.
Frank Herbert talked about the sand worm as like the archetypal
monster that the hero must face, the beast, the dragon guarding
the gold. So it's appropriate that, like
the archetypal beast monster that the hero must face is the
source of the sword, the special magic sword, the blade that the
hero wields. And George suddenly plays with
that with his Dragons and Valyrian steel as well.
Right on, here's one from our friend Nina Shout out to good
Queen ali.tumblr.com. She pointed out that Irulon
Meeks Shiny Contraceptives Shiny takes fertility treatments and
kind of counteracts that, I guess.
And in in his In Game of Thrones, Sybil Westerling gives
her own daughter receptives and tells her their fertility drugs.
Yeah, so to prevent her from conceiving with Rob and Jane
even talks about how she's expecting to have twins.
She's like excited she's gonna have.
Twins So. She obviously doesn't, but
deepens the potential parallel there.
Yeah, interesting, interesting. And and also, you know, Jane and
Rob's relationship is sort of a forbidden and ill advised one in
the same way that Jessica objects to Charlie and Paul's
relationship, because it's not the best political move.
And that's exactly, yeah. Catlin objects to the yes, very
good 'cause we've already made a ton of cattle and Jessica
parallels so that that fits in there, that category very
nicely. Excellent.
Yeah, Rob. Yeah.
No, yeah, that's really
interesting. And yeah, absolutely, absolutely
check out Good Queen Allison on Tumblr.
Nina Freel does some really excellent Song of us in Fire
analysis. Very insightful stuff.
Yeah, it's. But a lot of real world
parallels too. She's good with that.
OK, my last one, my last one. This is pure fun.
It was a very recent episode of Futurama from the Re Re Re
reboot of Futurama, which had a micro adventure inside a cat
litter box. Or a litter box, I guess it was.
I don't know if it was cat litter, I forget.
Anyway, they were it was doomed like Dune, you know, But Doom.
And there was worms in there, and they were like the sand
worms. And Futurama course is made by
the same creators as The Simpsons.
And The Simpsons did a Game of Thrones episode.
So Futurama did a Dune episode. Simpsons did a Game of Thrones
episode. There you go.
We need a we need a dune, explained Video Stat.
Don't we? Yes, Doom Dong right.
I I think there was around the time that the Dune book came out
in the 60s, there was like a parody book that came out that
was called Dune Doon and it was like some just some parody of
Dune that came out. You always forget that like you
know, the 60s is when Dune came out such a different time in
terms of media. The the idea of like parody
books coming out is is not something that that happens a
lot in 2023, is it parodies of popular movies coming out in
book form. But you know, I guess that's
what we did before YouTube and TikTok.
OK, So what? What year did what year did the
first book Dune come out? 65 I think.
As I'm pretty sure George R Martin was born, he was a
teenager when JFK, I'd say he was born in 48.
Yeah, so he would have been 17 when Dune came out.
So that's like, yeah, right in his wheel, His developing nerd
brain wheelhouse right there. Oh yeah, pretty perfect.
Yep, slides right in there with those Marvel Comics we mentioned
earlier. Stan Lee was doing his thing,
and Mike Herbert was on the scene with a game changer it.
Would have been so fascinating to hear them have a
conversation. Yeah, it really would have been.
That's true. I wonder.
I wonder if they wonder if that ever happened.
I wonder if they're. I'm sure their paths must have
crossed a few times, but doesn't mean they had like discussions
or alone. Anything more substantial than
that be something worth researching?
For sure. All right, well, let's respond
to the last of the Super chats and then I think we will wrap up
this live stream. Thanks for listening everybody
and we will have a look at thank you for the Super chat from
Professor 13 N who says love the content.
Have you seen the Game of Thrones RPG?
It came out before A Feast for Crows and is super interesting.
Shout out to Stannis, the one true king and Thaddeus Rowan.
Have you played the Game of Thrones RPG, Aziz?
Never played it, but I looked at the rule books and there there
used to be some lore from it that was cited.
It's maybe more considered semi cannon now, but there were some
things about like at least the monstrous and a few other
characters that popped up in there that were small little
tidbits that were fun. So, you know, in our effort to
try to learn every little bit of lore we had, we had to look at
those things. But I I never actually played
it, which is too bad 'cause it seems like it would have been
fun. Yeah, Professor might also be
referring to the video game RPG that came out, which which I I
also haven't played, but some people say that it's good.
It looks a little bit, I don't know, so it doesn't look like
the easiest game to get into, but apparently it's good.
Yeah, there were a couple of. There was like a A Game of
Thrones conquest, which is didn't do very well, and there
was the one where you could play the Nights Watch character in
the real or Priest. I did play a little bit of and
then there's CK3 and CK2 Crusader Kings 2:00 and 3:00,
Songoist Fire mods that I stream on Fridays, which are like full.
You're playing the whole dynasty through like playing out the
character until they take overs their heir.
Mountain Blade did a mod as well so you could play sieges and
small parties, skirmishing and fighting.
And normally it's set in a regular like medieval setting.
But there's a there was a mod for for Westeros and it was it
was quite good. Yeah, quite good.
I don't know. I don't know if it's been
updated or or if there's a new one or whatever, but there are a
lot of good Game of Thrones RP GS out there and I'm.
I imagine there's more coming one of these days.
It it is wild to me though, that the literal most popular TV show
of our era, the best video game adaptations that it has, are
mods made by fans. The people who own this IP have
not managed to turn the most popular fantasy story of our
dime into a decent into a popular good video game.
Which is good. Point a bit ridiculous.
Thanks for the. Fumble isn't.
It thanks for the Super chat from Sir Flement Brax who says
I'm starting a fund for a new Durkheim video from Shift.
One of the really really early old Shift X videos was about a
sociology theory from Emil Durkheim.
That's a very old video, so I I have no memory of whether that
video is any good or not. But I'm glad that I'm glad that
people I've enjoyed it and we have made more non fiction
videos like the religion and disaster video and I would like
to make more non fiction videos in future.
So we'll look out for. That's cool.
Yeah, right on. Thanks for the Super chat
encourage. You that as well, yeah.
Thanks. Thanks to you, Cass.
Who says I'm here for Wallace and Wooble and a sprinkle of
winkles on my dinkle. Thank you for that, Cass.
Excuse me, and thank you among U.S. law, who said last year you
said The Winds of Winter will come out next year or never.
Are we doomed, Aziz? Are we doomed?
I don't think we're doomed. You know, it's a funny silver
lining of the US writers and actors strike is that all of
George's Hollywood projects are paused.
So you really can't do anything else but work on the book.
And and from what we've heard, we know a couple of his people,
he's written quite a lot. He's he's written, it's going to
be the biggest book of the series probably.
And so it's not as if he's stuck.
He might be stuck in certain places, but he's not stuck
overall. He's been writing and so yeah, I
remain optimistic about at least something, but I'm not going to
put any sort of timeline on it. I've played that game before and
lost. Yeah, we all have.
Yeah, like like everyone I was a fool for trying to predict a
year. He he does say that he he's 2
thirds 75 no three quarters 75% finished with the book is is
what he said most recently right.
Think so. I don't recall.
Yeah, it's. There's been so many updates
over the years. They're all blur now, yeah.
Well, I I I can't help but notice that it took him 12 years
to get to 3/4 of the way and he started at 1/4 of the way
because 1/4 of the book was cut from the previous book dance.
So if it took him 12 years to write half the book, it could
easily be six years to to write the last quarter of the book if
my math is right. So you know my yeah, don't do
the math is my advice. Charges isn't great at math
anyway, so you know, maybe it'll just work out through his
exception of math. Yeah, that's right.
We shouldn't do the math because because George doesn't do the
math. George George's writing process
does not follow any human mathematics, so we should not
attempt to predict it. And thanks, Nuisance, he says.
Is there a chance we'll get everything we want for the Song
of Ice and Fire universe? Even if we get The Winds of
Winter at A Dream of Spring, we're not going to get all the
Duncan egg novellas. What Do you recognize this?
There's no way we get everything we want because there we there's
so much that we want. Yeah.
So that's. I get that's kind of a In some
ways that's a low hanging fruit. Answer was I want.
I want more than is reasonable in the first place.
Yes, there is. There is no end to what we want.
If George did by some miracle deliver wins and dream and 12
Duncan Egg books and Part 2 of the Georgia Armorillion Fire and
Blood Part 2, we would just ask for for 1000 more.
And I think George knows he's in a bit of a Sisyphean never
ending trap which is you know it it it's it's enormous success
but it's also something that he will literally never escape
until the day that he dies. So I you know, there's good and
bad here. There's, there's bitter.
Success, right? I have a question for nuisance,
a return question back at them. And what do you know about de
aging and modern medical procedure?
Maybe we need a GoFundMe to invest in some cryogenic science
for George Martin, but he doesn't like it when people
speculate about his death. So maybe we maybe we shouldn't.
I wouldn't either. I wouldn't want that.
Either that doesn't sound doesn't or yeah.
And, and yeah, I want to hear that Professor 13 clarifies
that, yeah, he was talking about the tabletop D&D esque RPG Aziz.
The deluxe rulebook says it's an 8 out of 10.
I think it's time to wrap up this stream.
It's been a long stream. Aziz, thank you so much for
joining in talking about Song of Ice and Fire in June.
Yeah, thanks for having me. This was great.
We had a lot of notes, but we also had a lot of things come
up, which is essence of a good discussion when you you're
prepared, but also discussion takes you places you didn't
expect you're inspired to with new ideas.
And yeah, this was great, this was a lot of fun on this is,
like I said at the beginning, a niche discussion.
But that's also that kind of the essence of geek culture is, is
finding your niches and and being passionate about them,
regardless of who else is watching or caring.
And I think a lot of y'all did care.
A lot of y'all enjoyed this, especially this person who asks
if this picture of Duke Leto and Ned Stark, meaning Sean Bean and
Oscar Isaac, is is pictures of you and me.
Yeah, that that that's exactly how I look.
That's correct. Yes, we look like amalgams of
them both, yes. That's right.
Yeah. Yeah.
No, thank you so much for coming on.
And and you know, Aziz did most of the work, writing up some
notes, checking out these similarities.
So I'm grateful for that. It's one of the great long
running OJ Song of Ice and Fire community institutions is
history of Westeros. Though History of Westeros was
one of my inspirations in covering Song of Ice and Fire
myself on Off Shift X, so we'll definitely, definitely support
him. You're very kind.
Thank you for that. This was super fun.
I love having discussions with other smart people that know
their stuff with these, with these great large fandoms, and
we got really meta today. This is one of the most meta
discussions I've ever had. We're talking about like things
that influence them as kids and what drugs they did.
Like all of that stuff that's that's really getting into it,
man. Yeah.
No, Always love getting into the the heart of it all.
Thanks guys.