1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,360 All right. I I think we will now move into 2 00:00:02,360 --> 00:00:08,560 a slightly more spoilery zone, which means we will talk about 3 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:14,760 the ending of June book one, and we'll also move into some stuff 4 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:18,200 that happens in June Book four. Personally, I don't think people 5 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:21,200 should worry all that much about June spoilers because like the 6 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:24,160 June books spoil themselves with the little quotes at the start 7 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:26,560 of each chapter and it's about prescience. 8 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:29,880 And who should we cover first? Aziz, do you want to talk about 9 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:33,520 Bran or Jon or Aya? And Aaliyah? 10 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:35,600 What are you feeling? Yeah, let's, let's wrap up some 11 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:37,720 of those ones, because those are kind of continuations of things 12 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:39,080 we had already started talking about. 13 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:42,200 I think one of the interesting things about Jon is he's sort of 14 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:48,720 an accidental example of what Paul is engineered to be. 15 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:53,000 Whereas he's a combination of bloodlines, whereas John just 16 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:55,480 kind of accidentally ended up as a child of Ice and Fire. 17 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:57,760 It wasn't necessarily the result of years of breeding. 18 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:00,520 But Rhaegar had a plan. He wanted to have the three 19 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:04,519 children and he thought he was following in some prophesied 20 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:07,720 thing. But it's not clear exactly what 21 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:09,760 he was doing. You know, he's he certainly said 22 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:12,400 he his is the Song of Ice and Fire. 23 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:17,400 You know, from Danny's vision we see that and that is apparently 24 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:19,520 being said to his first born son, the one that's killed. 25 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:21,280 But then he's who he's wrong about. 26 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:24,320 And so so this stuff is a little more murky in A Song of Ice and 27 00:01:24,320 --> 00:01:25,640 Fire, but the things are all there. 28 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:28,720 All these, like people trying to have a child of certain 29 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:32,520 bloodlines, combining certain bloodlines and it being for 30 00:01:32,960 --> 00:01:37,280 reasons laid out long before. And there's some of that with 31 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:40,480 Bran too, except that he's maybe a better example of something 32 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:42,840 that just happened. Even though you pointed to some 33 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:47,920 examples of the Starks capturing magical bloodlines in the past 34 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:53,480 and maybe that's why they have Warg blood now, it's hard to 35 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:55,960 argue that was some sort of engineering thing where they 36 00:01:55,960 --> 00:02:00,240 were like specifically trying to acquire that because of they. 37 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:03,040 They probably did it because it was power, not because of they 38 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:07,080 need had some goal from the for their descendants, which is 39 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:09,639 possible for or or at least spelled out for Egon. 40 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:15,440 Bran is more like the thing with Bloodraven and and looking for 41 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:18,440 who the next Green Seer is. Like who is born amongst this 42 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:20,080 population that has the right traits. 43 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:23,440 So George did both things where some people are born with the 44 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:28,760 traits and emerge, whereas other ones are are engineered ish. 45 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:32,760 And that goes to what we were saying before about how he likes 46 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:39,880 to pack in multiple variations on these core fantasy sci-fi 47 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:43,160 ideas. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 48 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:47,000 Magic power comes to them through different angles. 49 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:51,480 Brands more of a homegrown natural green seer, whereas John 50 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:56,040 is is a deliberate result of Rhaegar trying to unite Ice and 51 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:58,520 Fire. It seems I I I tend, I tend to 52 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:02,440 think that Rhaegar probably got a vision from Bloodraven saying, 53 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:07,360 hey Rhaegar like you should marry a Stark to unite Ice and 54 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:10,320 Fire and fulfill the prophecy. Because that's what's so funny 55 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:13,440 about all the Prophecy stuff. Like Amon talks about, you know 56 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:17,320 how he and Rhaegar were interested in prophecy and and 57 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:22,320 you know Jeharis and and and I think Ares the First probably as 58 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:24,560 well. But we never get direct 59 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:27,720 acknowledgement that Bloodraven himself was interested in 60 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:30,360 prophecy. I think it must be true because 61 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:32,480 it makes all of his actions make sense. 62 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:36,120 But it's so funny that you know there's no mention of like 63 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:39,600 Bloodraven trying to communicate with Amon despite Bloodraven's 64 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:41,680 interest in prophecy and Amon's interest in prophecy. 65 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:45,080 It's like, I don't know it, it's so puzzling and it makes me 66 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:48,080 wonder if like the Old Gods and the and the Weewood connection, 67 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:52,360 the Bloodraven might alter his behaviour or might alienate him 68 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:54,160 from the from the other Targaryens. 69 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:57,800 Bloodraven is such an interesting character, but I 70 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:00,400 think we've mentioned, you know, the obvious similarities between 71 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:04,120 Paul and John both as these, you know, lost Scions. 72 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:07,640 And both of them have a bloodline revelation. 73 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:12,000 So spoiler for June, book one. But Paul finds out that his 74 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:15,880 mother Jessica is the daughter of the Baron Vladimir Harkonnen. 75 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:20,040 So Paul finds out that he is partly A Harkonnen as well as an 76 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:22,000 Atrades. And that's similar to how John 77 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:26,320 will eventually find out that he is the son of a Targaryen as 78 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:30,040 well as a Stark. So you know, both Paul and John, 79 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:33,040 they have both the the ice and the fire. 80 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:37,280 The two opposite families are united in one in the hero. 81 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:41,960 Yeah, Bloodraid himself is that thing too. 82 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:45,640 He was a united sort of of old God's family and A and a 83 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:50,320 Targaryen father. So it's kind of passing down 84 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:53,560 that legacy or continuing that legacy in a sense or that also 85 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:55,480 speaks to before what we said about the possibility that 86 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:58,680 there's going to be secrets revealed about maybe history of 87 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:01,200 the Starks. There may be some some boogeyman 88 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:05,520 hiding in their ancestry as well that maybe fits this theme as 89 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:08,280 well. Yeah, for sure. 90 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:12,280 But Bloodraven almost makes me think of Hassimir Fenring. 91 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:17,000 As in like Bloodraven is someone who's super powerful and who you 92 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:19,360 almost might think could have fulfilled the prophecy in 93 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:22,720 himself in some sense. But but no, he's he's like, he's 94 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:25,240 super powerful, but he's relegated to the sidelines. 95 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:28,040 And that's sort of similar to Hassimir Fenring, who was like 96 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:30,880 almost a Quizzat's hat. Iraq, but not quite. 97 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:32,920 And he's powerful, but he doesn't quite get to take the 98 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:38,360 stage himself, and he allows others to exist on that central 99 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:41,400 stage instead instead of him, which is, I don't know, maybe 100 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:44,560 there's something though. That makes me think a little bit 101 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:48,600 to jump into a a fantasy series that we haven't mentioned yet is 102 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:52,400 Wheel of Time Where spent a long time the show does it much 103 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:55,280 quicker but in in the books it takes a long time for them to 104 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:58,280 reveal who the the true chosen went. 105 00:05:58,280 --> 00:06:00,200 In The Dragon Reborn there's all these different candidates. 106 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:01,960 It could be this person. It could be and and then they 107 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:04,960 reveal that that's been going on for for decades, that people 108 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:06,480 every once in a while there's like, oh this could be the 109 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:08,360 Dragon reborn. It's like, oh Nope, that wasn't 110 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:10,720 them. And it's it's a riffing on the 111 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:13,280 concept of a Messiah or the false Messiah or the false 112 00:06:13,280 --> 00:06:14,880 prophet. But George and Frank Herbert, 113 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:17,920 they just have a a much different twist on on how to do 114 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:21,760 this. And especially George, because 115 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:26,280 he's just writing a larger scale story, uses a lot of different 116 00:06:26,280 --> 00:06:30,360 variations of it. Where it's the centerpiece of 117 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:34,200 later in Dune, I suppose you could say or early and later I 118 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:36,600 guess. Yeah, I I think there's 119 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:40,400 definitely an argument in Song of Ice and Fire and in June that 120 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:44,160 you know that there won't necessarily be a true hero, a 121 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:47,680 true hero of the prophecy who is the person who saves the world. 122 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:51,360 It's it's more just, you know the the idea of a hero is a 123 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:54,520 powerful idea that exists in every culture and eventually 124 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:57,920 someone will come along and be a central person in in saving the 125 00:06:57,920 --> 00:06:59,680 world. And you know, perhaps we will 126 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,840 say that that person was the hero, but that's not necessarily 127 00:07:02,840 --> 00:07:05,160 how the prophecies work. It's more of just an idea and 128 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:08,960 someone will happen to to fit it for better or for worse. 129 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:13,480 Like Dune never really gives us a completely conclusive answer 130 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:17,080 on who the quiz at Tatarak is, because you can argue that Paul 131 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:20,200 didn't quite fulfil his destiny and maybe later. 132 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:23,640 The 2nd is more the real person who changes the world and knows 133 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:26,320 everything and is super powerful like the quiz at Tatarak. 134 00:07:26,320 --> 00:07:31,560 But then you know Duncan Idaho has arguably more of a claim to 135 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:34,680 being the quiz that's hat Iraq when spoiler Duncan gets 136 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:38,720 resurrected hundreds of times and and so and so Frank sort of 137 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:42,680 loses interest with the idea of there being one absolute mega 138 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:45,760 hero. Frank was interested in constant 139 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:49,440 change, and it's more the idea of the hero that is significant 140 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:51,760 than any one person fulfilling that role. 141 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:54,520 And I can see that happening with A Song of Ice and Fire too, 142 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:56,920 because like, there are already prophecies in A Song of Ice and 143 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:00,200 Fire that are fulfilled multiple times in different ways. 144 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:05,760 Like the whole, you know, waking a stone dragon can fit Daenerys 145 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:09,800 hatching her eggs from petrified stone eggs, but I think that 146 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:12,360 that also will connect to Jon Snow. 147 00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:15,120 I think Jon Snow will be resurrected possibly in the 148 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:18,760 stone Winterfell crypts and will be a dragon in the sense that 149 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:21,480 he's a Targaryen who embraces his Targaryen identity. 150 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:25,360 So like already the prophecies, they can mean multiple things 151 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:27,320 simultaneously. So that's why I don't think 152 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:30,000 we'll have one Azor Rahai saving the world. 153 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:33,400 I I think that many people will be involved, which to its credit 154 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:36,320 the the Game of Thrones TV show that's sort of is where they 155 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:40,480 landed on the prophecy. Melisandre at one points says 156 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:45,000 that I think that you know Jon Snow and Azora and Daenerys are 157 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:46,640 both the Prince that was promised. 158 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:49,560 They both have a role to play in this story, which I think was 159 00:08:49,560 --> 00:08:51,400 kind of a cop out. But I think that it also does 160 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:53,600 capture something that may be true in the books, which is that 161 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:57,080 there are multiple heroes, not just one person who fits the 162 00:08:57,120 --> 00:08:58,920 prophecy. I agree with that, yeah. 163 00:08:58,920 --> 00:09:01,320 And then they have go and have Ari to deal the killing blow, to 164 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:05,880 throw another name in there, you know, and I could even see. 165 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:08,760 I mean, I don't think there's a boss other, but I could see 166 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:12,320 something even like that happening with Arya wielding 167 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:14,160 dark sister instead of the cat's paw dagger. 168 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:18,520 It'd be a similar kind of thing. But yeah, the this, this whole 169 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:22,640 united goal of of things being brought to them through memories 170 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:28,080 and through dreams or through prophecies is definitely a 171 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:33,280 uniting factor that fits what you're saying because it's 172 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:37,640 applying to multiple characters. You have Bran coming through it 173 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:42,320 by being discovered like he was born with the right traits and 174 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:44,680 they've chosen him because of that. 175 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:47,920 And maybe they're they've looked for other people and discarded 176 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:52,080 other candidates prior to that. And in the case of Danny, we we 177 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:57,960 discussed and John how their circumstances and dreams have 178 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:01,960 guided them and mentors. And there's connections and 179 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:04,160 parallels between these mentors. And yeah, and then the same 180 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:07,600 thing with Paul, except that for him is more of all these things 181 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:10,200 kind of combined. Whereas maybe you could say that 182 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:14,280 A Song of acid fire versions are like reflections of a a crystal 183 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:19,400 adding up to that one. Like a Septon's Crystal with 184 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:21,800 many facets. Yes indeed. 185 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:26,120 So so you mentioned Aya killing the Night King In Game of 186 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:30,320 Thrones season eight at the end of June, book one Aaliyah kills 187 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:34,120 Vladimir with a with a little knife just how Aya kills the 188 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:36,800 Night King with a knife. So both of them have a girl 189 00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:40,160 using a little weapon to kill the bad guy in the end. 190 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:42,720 It doesn't. Doesn't she kill him with a 191 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:44,760 needle? Isn't it a needle with the? 192 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:47,400 In In Dune it's the gom jabbar needle. 193 00:10:47,680 --> 00:10:50,640 And yeah, of course, which? Aria wields Needle. 194 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:54,800 Yeah, which is fantastic. That's cool. 195 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:58,120 Alia and Arya are even similar, sounding like name wise, you 196 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:00,560 know. And they both are the dark 197 00:11:00,560 --> 00:11:02,680 sister. They are the sister that sort of 198 00:11:02,680 --> 00:11:07,120 goes off on the strange path and strange mystical influences and 199 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:11,320 comes back changed and comes back touched and comes back as a 200 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:16,240 sort of scary, scary individual who no one's quite sure what to 201 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:18,240 deal with. And they are unique and they are 202 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:21,280 isolated and they are subject to dark forces. 203 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:23,800 And it's like, who is this person now? 204 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:27,320 Yeah, that sounds like both of them. 205 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:29,640 Yeah, that's great. And Aaliyah even has memories 206 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:33,920 that aren't hers, and which Arya gets a bit of that when she puts 207 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:37,400 on the little girl's face. She has memories of that girl, 208 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:39,720 of that ugly girl, and presumably that's not going to 209 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:42,840 be the only time this happens. So even that has a bit of 210 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:44,880 parallel the other people's memories. 211 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:49,800 Yeah, they, yeah, they both have have a variety of mystical 212 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:52,840 powers that no one else in the story has because Aya is both a 213 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:57,040 fatalist man and a skin changer. Aya skin changes a cat and sees 214 00:11:57,040 --> 00:11:59,440 through a cat's eyes. So there's all these in in the 215 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:02,400 books and so there's there's all these unique powers that they 216 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:04,160 have that that make them very strange. 217 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:08,280 And they of course are the the sister of the heroic protagonist 218 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:10,800 in both stories. So big similarities there. 219 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:16,280 Don't the Face Dancers of Dune also acquire memories of people 220 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:20,400 when they duplicate them or copy them like the Faceless Men? 221 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:22,920 Isn't that also kind of a carry over? 222 00:12:23,560 --> 00:12:26,800 It's complicated. The the face dances evolve so 223 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:29,840 that they, like, gain the ability. 224 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:32,280 They they gain new abilities that they didn't have before, 225 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:36,720 which I think allows them to retain memories in ways that 226 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:40,280 they couldn't before. Yeah, yeah, shape copiers who 227 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:42,960 not only copied the surface memories of their victims, but 228 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:46,000 the deepest thoughts and identity as well as a form of 229 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:48,840 immortality. And the Clay Laksu use face 230 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:52,840 dances to make themselves immortal, copying themselves 231 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:56,560 through face dancery. But then the face dances become 232 00:12:56,560 --> 00:12:59,120 too powerful. And then they go rogue and 233 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:03,360 they're against the Clay Laksu. And then they have cat people 234 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:07,520 called Futas who observe them and come from outside the 235 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:09,440 universe. I'm not even going to get into 236 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:14,320 what happens in heritage. Yeah, the Face Dancers are like 237 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:17,840 kind of maybe the ultimate bad in the final book of Dune 238 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:21,560 because there's the many faced one who the honoured bat rays 239 00:13:21,560 --> 00:13:23,520 are fleeing and it's it's a whole thing. 240 00:13:23,680 --> 00:13:24,800 I mean, I mean there's sort of like. 241 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:26,000 Faced one? Really. 242 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:29,560 Oh yeah, it it's kind of like the great other and. 243 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:30,880 Many faced God. Yeah. 244 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:33,120 Geez. And then Daniel and Marty at the 245 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:36,560 very end of Chapter House are the author, self insert 246 00:13:36,560 --> 00:13:40,760 characters, and they also simultaneously are Evolved Face 247 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:44,200 Dancers. So look, yeah, I'm we we're not 248 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:47,000 even gonna get into that. But there certainly are like 249 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:49,240 strong parallels between the Face Dancers and The Faceless 250 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:52,640 Man. Suffice to say, someone in the 251 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:56,440 live chat, Brian Shattuck just said that God Emperor has a 252 00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:59,960 Brienne. And what what what Brian means 253 00:13:59,960 --> 00:14:02,640 is that in book four, God Emperor of June, there's a 254 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:06,400 character called Siona who is, AI believe, a blonde woman who 255 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:10,920 is very tall and physically strong and physically tough and 256 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:14,360 is like not super smart but is super loyal and is like 257 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:16,960 well-intentioned. And it's interesting that Siona, 258 00:14:17,560 --> 00:14:20,840 well, that's a huge parallel. So spoilers for book 4. 259 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:25,720 Ciona ends up playing a role in killing her Master. 260 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:30,240 Later, the second The God Emperor, Ciona ends up helping 261 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:33,520 in the downfall of the person to whom she is devoted. 262 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:37,040 And I think that is similar to the idea that Brienne might kill 263 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:40,320 Lady Stoneheart. Brienne is sworn to serve Catlin 264 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:42,600 and she's motivated by a loyalty to Catelyn. 265 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:45,200 But a lot of people speculate that Brienne might kill 266 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:47,360 Stoneheart, and I think that is quite likely. 267 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:50,920 So very similar to Siona helping kill Lato. 268 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:53,200 Oh, not Siona. Yeah, you're right. 269 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:54,160 Sorry. It's not Siona. 270 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:54,760 It is. What? 271 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:56,200 What? What's the bloody name? 272 00:14:57,040 --> 00:15:02,800 It's not Siona. It is the fish speaker. 273 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:05,760 Nailer. Was it Nailer? 274 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:08,840 Might have been Nailer. All right, let's continue. 275 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:11,920 What should we discuss next? Should we discuss King Bran? 276 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:16,000 Sure, We'll do that. So. 277 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:17,440 Yeah. King, King, Bran. 278 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:22,280 Good one. Yeah, so at the end of Game of 279 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:28,280 Thrones season 8, Bran the omniscient tree boy God becomes 280 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:29,840 king. And it's a bit weird. 281 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:33,120 No one quite understands who Bran is or what he knows or what 282 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:36,000 his purpose is and what his destiny is and how it all 283 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:38,520 happened. And similarly, in book four the 284 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:42,200 the emperor of the universe is later the 2nd Atrades, who is a 285 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:46,280 giant worm God who lives for 4000 years and who does all 286 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:48,960 these sort of messed up tyrannical things for the 287 00:15:48,960 --> 00:15:53,440 greater good, supposedly, which has similarities to Bloodraven, 288 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:56,720 who does these messed up things supposedly for the greater good. 289 00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:00,480 So I've got to wonder, will King Bran really be a good thing for 290 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:02,880 Westeros? Or will King Bran be an immortal 291 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:06,440 omniscient tyrant who rules for thousands of years and messes 292 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:08,280 with everybody? What do you reckon, Aziz? 293 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:12,520 Well, I don't know that we'll find out. 294 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:15,960 I think he'll George will leave us ambiguous clues if it if it 295 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:20,120 does end in something like that. I think that even all the 296 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:24,720 lessons of power he's gonna have trade and it's a huge variety of 297 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:27,200 ways throughout the story. I don't think we're gonna look 298 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:30,520 on it as a great thing. I think we might look on it as 299 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:35,400 something that would be good for a while but will not be good in 300 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:38,720 the long run, like all these other power structures, all 301 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:41,120 these other things that wield so much power, especially putting 302 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:46,360 it in in one of individual. And yeah, I don't think we'll be 303 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:48,560 left with a feeling that it's going to go well in the long 304 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:52,280 term, even if it'll probably work out in the short term 305 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:55,840 because the the short term will have been so bad prior to the 306 00:16:55,880 --> 00:17:00,240 settling of events at the end. And other other than that, it's 307 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:03,600 pretty hard to see though because what kind of a king is 308 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:05,560 he going to be? What kind of shape is the realm 309 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:07,280 going to be? Who else is going to be around? 310 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:09,040 Is it going to be a new form of government? 311 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:11,800 Are we going to get that far? I I wondered. 312 00:17:11,839 --> 00:17:14,480 It seemed on one hand I see, it seems like there is a lot of 313 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:18,040 time for that because how long will it take for the others to 314 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:21,119 be defeated? And how much of the aftermath 315 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:24,319 are we going to see? George is a big fan of the 316 00:17:24,319 --> 00:17:27,000 Scouring of the Shire and the way The Hobbit ended with a lot 317 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:29,400 of extra stuff at the end. And I kind of feel like he's 318 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:31,160 gonna do the same thing and not just end it. 319 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:36,400 Suddenly I he's gonna go into a a good bit of what happens after 320 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:40,080 a lot of the major events are resolved but not a, you know, 321 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:43,800 not for years worth. So the future is gonna have to 322 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:50,600 be shown to us in like, in terms of what we expect and not we're 323 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:51,720 not gonna actually see it, you know? 324 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:56,840 Part of me would kind of love it if there was like an epilogue to 325 00:17:56,840 --> 00:18:01,680 A Song of Ice and Fire, which is Jon Snow returning from exile in 326 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:06,920 the North to come South and to kill his brother, King Bran. 327 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:11,360 Because King Bran has become obviously a puppet of the Old 328 00:18:11,360 --> 00:18:14,680 God's weirwood hive mind consciousness, and John has to 329 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:17,960 like tragically execute his own brother, his own beloved 330 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:21,440 brother, because he needs to free Westeros from this magical 331 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:23,800 alien tyrant. That would be a bit George 332 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:27,600 Martinian, I think. Where would Emperor? 333 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:30,840 Yeah. Do you like the idea that Bran 334 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:33,880 might become like a meat puppet for Bloodraven? 335 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:38,360 No, I don't think Bloodraven has those kind of ambitions. 336 00:18:38,360 --> 00:18:42,120 I mean maybe like in terms of if he needs to use him as a weapon, 337 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:46,800 I don't think he would have designs on afterwards because he 338 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:50,400 never really tried to enrich himself or do things for 339 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:53,720 himself. I don't think in terms of the 340 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:59,080 things we'd see someone would do if that's what their game end 341 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:01,520 game was. So yeah I fall on the side of no 342 00:19:01,520 --> 00:19:03,440 on that one. I think Yamora he he he his 343 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:06,200 actions throughout his life mostly are about seem to be 344 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:08,640 about protecting. He might know about which which 345 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:11,920 which lines up with him knowing about the the prophecy from a 346 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:14,760 younger age. I I I think part of what makes. 347 00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:16,160 Through Egon, through his dreams. 348 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:19,480 Blood Raven has that lion where he says, you know, there was a 349 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:23,600 brother I loved, there was a woman I desired it. 350 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:26,520 It it does highlight that Blood Raven does have these personal 351 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:28,280 desires. And I and I think we are invited 352 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:32,560 to wonder if Blood Raven's fanatical opposition to the 353 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:36,320 black fires was motivated not just by protecting the realm, 354 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:40,120 not just by protecting the prophetic Targaryen bloodline, 355 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:44,000 but also just by his personal beef with Bitter Steel and their 356 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:47,280 rivalry. Fierra C Star So I I think it is 357 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:50,560 like an open question like is Bloodraven really acting in 358 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:54,120 everyone's best interests or does he have personal desires 359 00:19:54,120 --> 00:19:56,840 that he that he puts first? It's that love is the death of 360 00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:59,000 duty thing. Yeah. 361 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:01,560 And I also love the idea that Bloodraven still has a 362 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:03,280 relationship with Shierra sea Star. 363 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:07,600 If Shierra sea Star is Quaith. I really like the idea of 364 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:09,880 Shierra sea Star being quaithe even though it's a bit tin 365 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:13,400 foily. Maybe their love endures, for 366 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:16,840 better or worse. So. 367 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:20,360 Yeah, I I somewhat take, I somewhat take that as him 368 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:23,880 expressing that's how he used to be, that's how he used to feel. 369 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:25,720 But who knows? That doesn't really speak to 370 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:28,320 what he feels now. Well, well, I mean, there's a 371 00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:32,400 lot of like visual symbolism, similarities between Bloodraven 372 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:34,400 and Barrick. Because when we are introduced 373 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:37,440 to Barrack Dondarian in the books, he's sitting on a 374 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:40,560 weirwood throne. He has one eye. 375 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:43,320 He Does he have one? On a black cloak. 376 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:44,680 And yeah, he does. He has one on. 377 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:45,200 You're right. He is. 378 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:48,640 Yeah, he has a black cloak. He looks like a zombie. 379 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:51,800 He's all like half, half cave rotting and dead. 380 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:53,520 He's in a cave underground. So. 381 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:55,280 So Barrick is super similar to Bloodraven. 382 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:57,320 And I think part of the similarity is that Barrick has 383 00:20:57,320 --> 00:20:59,880 lost his humanity. And Bloodraven, I think also has 384 00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:02,280 lost a lot of his humanity because the man's a tree. 385 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:05,880 And, you know, when Bran talks to Bloodraven, he's like, are 386 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:07,680 you the crow? And Bloodraven's like, oh, I 387 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,680 guess I'm the crow. Long ago I was kind of a crow. 388 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:13,880 And, you know, a lot has been made of that quote arguing that 389 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:15,280 Bloodraven is not really Bloodraven. 390 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:17,680 But I think that, you know, part of the point is that Bloodraven 391 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:20,960 has lost his memories and his sense of, like, blood. 392 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:23,520 Bloodraven doesn't do anything that is very Targaryenny. 393 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:27,800 Like Bran does not know him as Brindon Rivers or as a Targaryen 394 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:29,880 bastard. Bran knows Bloodraven as the 395 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:32,840 Three Eyed Crow and and I think that that is what he is. 396 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:35,320 He has lost so much of his Targaryen identity. 397 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:38,680 He's lost so much of his soul and his emotion and he and he 398 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,520 really is largely just a goddamn tree and he's. 399 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:45,680 Part of a collective, yeah. So I suppose we can expect 400 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:49,040 something similar with Bran and and that's sort of what happens 401 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:52,560 with Lato the Second, the God Emperor, like he has the other 402 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:56,080 other memories of of lifetimes and lifetimes of other people's 403 00:21:56,080 --> 00:22:00,200 experiences in his mind, and as a result he is no longer Lato 404 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:03,440 inside anymore. They start to bleed together 405 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:05,920 with him, don't they? Yeah, cooler thing. 406 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:09,400 And see that something like that maybe happening with Bran or or 407 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:13,240 maybe that's sort of vaguely what's what has happened with 408 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:18,280 Annie and her memories with her ancestors, sort of like calling 409 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:21,240 to her or whatever. We've got Joe Magician in the 410 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:22,960 live chat. Welcome, Joe Magician. 411 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:24,280 Oh, hey, Joe. Magician. 412 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:28,200 Joe Magician has many wonderful Song of Ice and Fire YouTube 413 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:29,920 videos. Everyone should go check out and 414 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:32,720 subscribe to Joe Magician as well as go on unlikely 415 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,280 describing history of Westeros as well. 416 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,040 Link in the description, but Joe Magician in the chat says that 417 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:40,920 the epilogue will be The Scouring of Slaver's Bay, like 418 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:44,200 the Scouring of the Shire, Lord of the Rings, where Good King 419 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:50,400 Dario will bring peace to Esos. Good King Dario that is heavily 420 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:55,040 foreshadowed. Do you think Dario is is 421 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:58,520 secretly Euron Aziz? Oh, of course. 422 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:01,480 Of course. Euron is is about 17 different 423 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:05,440 characters, including Cersei. And Benjen, who is, of course up 424 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:07,120 and down. Yeah, that's right. 425 00:23:07,120 --> 00:23:10,640 But do you want to talk about like the Old Gods and the Benet 426 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:12,800 Jesuit and the whole sort of memory thing? 427 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,360 Sure. It's a good little we've we've 428 00:23:16,360 --> 00:23:18,280 kind of touched on that a little bit here. 429 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:21,560 Let's, let's go deeper on that. It, it seems like one of the 430 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:25,360 main parallels is the a sort of a chosen 1:00-ish type figure 431 00:23:25,360 --> 00:23:28,520 which Paul comes up in a different couple different ways 432 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:31,520 that way. Whereas this facet of an 433 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:35,160 intestong of ice and fire falls on Bran opposed to maybe Jon or 434 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:39,760 Danny, or maybe Arya and Bloodraven explains the rarity 435 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:45,120 here, and maybe doesn't go so far as to call him a Chosen one, 436 00:23:45,120 --> 00:23:49,280 but a person of unusual skill that's necessary for victory. 437 00:23:49,360 --> 00:23:51,560 But I'm not sure where you fall on that, whether it is more 438 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:56,520 distinctly, you know, you're the one or just the one right now. 439 00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:00,840 Yeah, I I tend to think it's more of A1 right now, but I I 440 00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:04,480 think it's so interesting how the Benet Jesuit and the Old 441 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:07,280 Gods are both defined by memories. 442 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:10,800 The Benet Jesuit Reverend Mothers, they become Reverend 443 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:14,800 Mothers by acquiring the genetic memories of all their female 444 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:16,880 ancestors. And it's that knowledge that 445 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:19,400 defines them and it's that knowledge that empowers their 446 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:23,360 schemes and their plans. And similarly the the Old Gods. 447 00:24:23,360 --> 00:24:27,560 It seems that when a person dies, their soul goes into the 448 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:29,680 weirwood trees and goes into the Old Gods. 449 00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:35,080 And the Old Gods are a store of memories and knowledge and the 450 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:37,400 children of the forest are connected to that and Bloodraven 451 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:41,120 is connected to that and that empowers their schemes and and 452 00:24:41,120 --> 00:24:45,040 it and it's powerful, but it's also dangerous because it's 453 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:49,040 dehumanizing to be connected to all these other consciousnesses 454 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:51,680 apart from your own. It's interesting that the Benet 455 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:54,000 Jezerite alike that they are they are feminine. 456 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:58,920 They are like typically like nurturing force symbolically. 457 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,960 And the old gods are connected to trees and and nature, like 458 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:05,200 the children of the forest and nature elves, basically. 459 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:08,880 And yet Despite that sort of maternal, natural, nurturing 460 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:14,240 vibe, there's a sinister nature to the Bennett Jesuit and to the 461 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:18,960 weirwoods and the old gods. So it's this sort of horror of a 462 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:23,560 consciousness that is greater and older than yourself, the 463 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:27,360 horror of the hive mind. The ancient wisdom that just is 464 00:25:27,360 --> 00:25:30,600 so much smarter than you are, it seems overwhelming. 465 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:34,120 Like, how could you possibly defeat such a thing Because it's 466 00:25:34,120 --> 00:25:36,160 been around so long and knows so much. 467 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:38,840 It is part of the horror aspect. I think some of the horror 468 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:42,000 influence and maybe if you branch out into maybe somewhere 469 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,440 the real world influences are, is that these these guys both a 470 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,920 lot of through a lot of the Red Scare where communism was seen 471 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:51,600 kind of that way and a lot of ways of of being a hive mind of 472 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,960 where everybody's the same where if you don't have individuality 473 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:57,840 and that's where some of the sinister elements come. 474 00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,800 Obviously Americans living in that era where overwhelmed with 475 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:05,160 anti communism stuff that was their main enemy, their main 476 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:08,000 boogeyman and then nuclear stuff came in a little later. 477 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:12,160 But those are both in Dune and and you know grand destructive 478 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:14,560 power exists in A Song of Ice and Fire. 479 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,720 And George has written a lot of his other stories that involve 480 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:22,720 like hive mind mind control type stuff, the the Harangan hive 481 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,000 minds of his thousand world setting. 482 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:29,600 They're all about mind control and slave races, and some of 483 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:33,800 those are engineered and then on the smaller scale, sung for 484 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,920 Leah, where he wrote after a breakup. 485 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:40,240 And the two characters, like one of them slowly, you know, joins 486 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:43,880 this like hive mind and he loses her to that. 487 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:48,480 He's tempted to join it too. And you know, so these are 488 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,200 things these authors both have lots of influences on, I think 489 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:54,560 and had written about elsewhere. It's like this is the the 490 00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,360 culmination of of that. Having written about it and 491 00:26:57,360 --> 00:26:59,440 thought about it so much they they placed it here in their 492 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:03,960 masterpieces. Yeah, well well George like all 493 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:06,920 great writers does his best writing after a break up. 494 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:11,080 But you noticed some similarities as as well I think 495 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:14,040 with the way that Paul is is tested. 496 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:18,760 Paul is given a deadly test by Gaius Mahayam to determine if he 497 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:22,680 has the the power and the inner strength sufficient to be the 498 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:25,520 chosen one. Which is so similar to how 499 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:30,760 Bloodraven tests Bran with Bran's flying dream, which he he 500 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:35,760 he's told to fly or die, and he sees these ice spikes with the 501 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:38,320 bones of other dreamers impaled upon them. 502 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:42,120 And so and so the the sort of wise but sort of sinister 503 00:27:42,120 --> 00:27:46,880 magical mentor subjects the hero to a deadly test which they 504 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,200 survive. But there's there's something 505 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:53,560 messed up about how, you know, Bloodraven and Gaius are willing 506 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:58,040 to risk the lives of this child in order to find the powerful 507 00:27:58,040 --> 00:27:58,720 Chosen One. Yeah. 508 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:06,480 Gets into the themes of like why real world human sacrifice would 509 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:10,560 happen. They would do it not for gain. 510 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:16,760 Usually the reason it was done was to prevent some sort of 511 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:21,920 mandate from revenge or outcome from heaven that was terrifying, 512 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:23,720 like the gods would punish them or something, you know? 513 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:25,320 It was. It was usually to stop something 514 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:28,280 horrible from happening, rather than which is happening here, 515 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:30,400 which is the exact same thing like, well, they're manipulating 516 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:36,200 Bran or Paul or whoever to stop something worse from happening, 517 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:40,120 according to them, you know. Yeah, yeah. 518 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:44,000 And ultimately, meddling with these powers may cause more harm 519 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:51,920 than good. We talked a bit about drugs in 520 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:53,800 both Song of Ice and Fire and Dune. 521 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:57,720 We mentioned like Spice and we mentioned weirwood paste. 522 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,880 And yeah, there's also the Water of Life drug in Dune, which sort 523 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:06,000 of sparks Paul's prescience and his and his psychic ability 524 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:07,640 increasing. And that's, yeah, that's really 525 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:11,960 similar to Bran eating the weirwood paste to open his mind. 526 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,440 And I think, I think we're just down to some sort of 527 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:17,280 miscellaneous points at this point. 528 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:19,880 Is there anything else you wanna jump to now? 529 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:24,280 One one other thing about Brand, just either reiterate or re 530 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:28,520 emphasize. Annie and Paul both had their 531 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:31,440 long harrowing journey in the desert, which is a parallel 532 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:33,200 also. Of course it's like a parallel 533 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:34,320 to some real world religious stuff. 534 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:37,160 But that aside, Brad had a similar journey. 535 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:40,160 It just wasn't in the desert. He had a harrowing beyond the 536 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:43,280 wall, nearly died to several from several different things, 537 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:48,000 nearly starved, had to eat human flesh and didn't realize it. 538 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:53,920 You know all these other things, which is a marker that they're 539 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:58,800 on a similar journey of gotta suffer to become a hero, and 540 00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,480 then you're strong enough to do to face the even bigger 541 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:06,160 challenge that affects everyone. Yeah, where it's gonna end, I 542 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:09,080 guess we don't know in this case yet, but we have a vague, a 543 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:15,240 pretty strong general idea. Bran eats of the tree to acquire 544 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:19,720 knowledge, so all that biblical stuff is in there. 545 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:29,760 Yes, seasons and climate and ecology are themes in both 546 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:35,040 stories because in Dune they want to transform the deserts of 547 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,800 Arakis into a more hospitable climate. 548 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:42,360 And in Westeros the seasons are irregular, which creates this 549 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:46,200 challenge to survive. And the George Martin has said 550 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:49,240 that at the end of A Song of Ice and Fire, the Seasons, the 551 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:51,040 irregular seasons, will be resolved. 552 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:54,320 So perhaps they will, you know, come into balance and regularity 553 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:56,600 similar to Iraqis becoming more hospitable. 554 00:30:58,120 --> 00:30:59,320 That makes sense. That's cool. 555 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:04,040 A big part of those stories, you get the others and the whites 556 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:07,200 versus the splice of pretty different context. 557 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:09,640 But still blue eyes, You know, Big deal. 558 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:13,400 Very important. We mentioned the Maesters, the 559 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:17,280 sort of academic, academic, smart people who serve the Lords 560 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,320 but might sometimes plot against them being similar to the 561 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:24,280 Mentats in Dune, who were the smart mathematical giga brains 562 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:28,680 who serve Lords sook doctors. There's one at a time too, which 563 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:30,280 is kind of, you know, like, yeah. 564 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:33,000 They're they're trained at a school and then they're 565 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:37,640 distributed to the Lords and some people suspect plots and 566 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,560 machinations. And Ben, a Jesuit, also these 567 00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,800 smart, capable people who were distributed to Lords, but some 568 00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:47,480 people suspect them of conspiracies and manipulations. 569 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:50,400 They're all one gender, obviously. 570 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:53,480 That maesters were one gender, and the Bennett Jesuit are all 571 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:57,040 one gender, right? Yeah, yeah, I I I guess the 572 00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:00,240 closest thing A Song of Ice and Fire has to an all female order 573 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:03,720 is the silent sisters who are intriguing. 574 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:07,640 Did. And maybe we should talk about 575 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:11,240 just some of the deeper fundamental, like sort of moral 576 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:14,120 messages and thematic messages of the story. 577 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:18,680 I I, I feel that, you know, Dune is very much about saying that 578 00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:22,840 hey, like superheroes are bad messiahs and leaders are 579 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:26,400 potentially catastrophic, like we should not follow heroic 580 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:28,760 leaders. Whereas I feel that Asung of Ice 581 00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:32,200 and Fire, like Asung of Ice and Fire, definitely questions and 582 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:34,720 complicates the tropes of heroism. 583 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:38,600 But I I think that ultimately George does love the romantic 584 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:42,880 tropes of of heroes being heroic and I think Brienne is a great 585 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:47,480 example of that. George loves Brienne's heroism 586 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:51,080 and and her willingness to fight for what's right and John's 587 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:52,760 willingness to fight for what's right. 588 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:57,600 I don't think the ending of A Song of Ice and Fire will be We 589 00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:01,160 were stupid for following John and we were stupid for following 590 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:06,480 Daenerys and and Brienne I I I think that George does value 591 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:10,320 their heroism in a way that Frank Herbert does not value 592 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:11,960 heroism. I think that Frank Herbert 593 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:17,440 values more cold, rational, cunning and enlightenment and 594 00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:20,920 thinking on a higher plane in a way that George does not. 595 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,080 Yeah, I think that's a that's a pretty insightful way to put it. 596 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:26,480 I think. And and I think George sometimes 597 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:30,920 gets accused of being too grim, but there's always these lights 598 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:32,520 within this darkness that he paints. 599 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:34,960 Like you said, on's a good example. 600 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:38,000 Ned's a good example, Brienne's a good example. 601 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:41,960 These characters do good things that they suffer consequences or 602 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:46,240 just not unrealistic about the fates of people that do good. 603 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:50,880 He also shows how those things carry forward even without those 604 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:54,360 people's lives continuing. Like like Ned and presumably 605 00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:57,480 some of these other characters will also die and will be. 606 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:01,680 Their memories will matter to those that continue those that 607 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:04,600 don't. Yeah, yeah, Call me an optimist, 608 00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:09,199 but I think that George Martin has a better hope of concluding 609 00:34:09,199 --> 00:34:13,840 and ending his series because I I I think George Martin is more 610 00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:15,920 conventional in his storytelling. 611 00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:19,199 Like, like George is very much questioning and complicating 612 00:34:19,199 --> 00:34:21,320 tropes. But he ultimately, I think, is 613 00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:26,239 writing a story about heroism and and goodness triumphing over 614 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:30,400 corruption and despair. And that is not what Frank 615 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:33,520 Herbert does with June. Frank Herbert in June is is 616 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:41,040 insatiably interested in rationally rethinking and 617 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:46,600 reframing and recontextualizing situations and accepting no 618 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:50,080 conclusion. Frank and June will accept no 619 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:55,960 status quo, will accept no ending because life for him is 620 00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:59,640 all about new beginnings and new discoveries and and questioning 621 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:02,840 everything constantly. So both June and Asung of Ice 622 00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:07,360 and Fire are unfinished series currently, at least in my view. 623 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,360 Some people, well, no, they are both unfinished series. 624 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:13,160 So I so I yeah, I I tend to think that George might be able 625 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:16,800 to stick some kind of a landing whereas Frank Herbert I think 626 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:23,760 with Chapter House did not. There's also I think 627 00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:26,920 similarities in sort of the structure of the series in how 628 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:31,760 both series started out with like 3 books that were well 629 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:35,000 received and fairly action-packed. 630 00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:39,280 And then the 4th book and the 5th book become a lot more 631 00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:41,760 meandering and a lot more indulgent and sort of 632 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:45,600 philosophical and introducing new characters and plot lines. 633 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:49,080 I I I think that both Frank and George, they got a little bit 634 00:35:49,240 --> 00:35:53,920 too indulgent and undisciplined in introducing more and more 635 00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:55,160 stuff. And I think that's part of why 636 00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:57,800 they haven't finished their series in that sense. 637 00:35:57,800 --> 00:35:59,640 They have a similar style of writing, I think. 638 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:03,520 Yeah, it could be. They're maybe just more 639 00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:07,880 interested in the process than or the journey than destination 640 00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:12,200 in a lot of ways, 'cause they're writing entire worlds. 641 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:15,200 And that's that conflicts with writing a story. 642 00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:19,880 Not just worlds, but universes. Especially given, in George's 643 00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:23,440 case, used to view the story as, you know what you the history 644 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:25,320 and whatever's in there is supposed to serve the story. 645 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:31,680 But that was before his his work became a franchise and when 646 00:36:31,720 --> 00:36:35,640 those other world building details became valuable, whereas 647 00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:38,680 they would just be fun in most stories. 648 00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:42,760 Yeah, that's true. It it's changed for him. 649 00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:46,840 So the picture and the the opportunity has changed for him. 650 00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:51,800 I'm not sure that was ever the case for Frank because if you 651 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:58,440 know he got his books were adapted, they achieve this level 652 00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:00,360 not during his life. I mean, Dune is still being 653 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:05,480 remade constantly historically speaking and doing well, but 654 00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:08,800 Frank's not there to see it, whereas or just having a bit of 655 00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:11,640 a different peak. Yeah, yeah. 656 00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:14,160 I I think you make a good point that like both George and Frank, 657 00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:18,400 they had major popular adaptations, screen adaptations 658 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,320 of their work while they were still writing the book series. 659 00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:24,560 And I think for both Frank and George, that gave them a huge 660 00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:28,920 commercial incentive to make a whole bunch more Dune and make a 661 00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:30,320 whole bunch more Game of Thrones. 662 00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,520 And I think that ironically, that may have prevented both of 663 00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:36,920 them from concluding their series at a certain point. 664 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:41,600 Frank Herbert in interviews said that I will not write more Dune 665 00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:43,600 books. He said that those three, that 666 00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:45,720 those first three Dune books, that was it, that was all there 667 00:37:45,720 --> 00:37:48,480 would be. And and then because of the 668 00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:50,920 success of Dune and the popularity of the movie and 669 00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:53,200 stuff, that's that's why he wrote book four and then book 5 670 00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:55,760 and book 6. So, and I think in a funny sort 671 00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:58,520 of similar way, it's the success of the Game of Thrones TV show 672 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:01,840 that has largely distracted George from finishing the books 673 00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:05,440 and has perhaps even encouraged him to be overly perfectionist 674 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:08,280 and to be overly indulgent with the later books that he's 675 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:10,400 writing. So, So, in a really ironic way, 676 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:13,440 the the mainstream success of the series may have prevented 677 00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:16,200 the series from having conclusions. 678 00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:20,120 Yeah, isn't that funny? And it's also bit of a parallel, 679 00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:23,160 like for different reasons. But George initially planned his 680 00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:26,360 story to be a trilogy. It wasn't because of the TV show 681 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:28,080 that he expanded it. Obviously that expansion 682 00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:31,680 happened earlier, but it's funny to think that Frank also was 683 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:35,520 gonna stop after three books and expanded it beyond and just 684 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:39,120 George. His he His plans changed before 685 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:41,440 he got to that point, but it was still something they had in 686 00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:44,720 common about the way they conceived it initially. 687 00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:50,600 Yeah, Karl Karl, snark in the live chat, says that as hard as 688 00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:53,200 George Martin's characters have it, they never give up. 689 00:38:53,240 --> 00:38:56,040 They want to live and win the day, no matter how flawed their 690 00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:58,400 personal philosophy. And he says that there are no 691 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:00,600 nihilists in A Song of Ice and Fire. 692 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:04,560 They all follow their passions and and yeah, I I think that's 693 00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:06,440 another. That's a great way to say it 694 00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:08,560 because because the characters in Dune are not like that. 695 00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:11,800 Like like the characters in Dune do wrestle with similar ideas of 696 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:15,200 like love versus duty with like later the Second's love for Hui 697 00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:18,360 Nori and all of that. But like the the Dune books 698 00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:24,760 almost always land on the side of be a hard ass Machiavellian 699 00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:27,680 rationalist. The only way to survive is to 700 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:31,560 embrace the harsh rationalist perspective. 701 00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:34,840 Follow your brain, not your heart, is often, I think, the 702 00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:37,240 message of Dune. I I think Frank Herbert sort of 703 00:39:37,240 --> 00:39:40,760 softened a little bit in his later books and he suddenly ends 704 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:44,640 Chapter House with with a more emotional, human side. 705 00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:48,160 But I I think overall Dune is a lot more harsh and like, 706 00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:52,160 rationalistic than A Song of Ice and Fire, which is ultimately 707 00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:56,400 very human and emotional and romantic and full of heart. 708 00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:59,040 Yeah, well said. I totally agree with that. 709 00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:01,640 I think it is. I mean, even without having seen 710 00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:05,840 the ending yet, I think we can agree that there are more 711 00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:10,680 positive portrayals of relationships and positive 712 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:14,040 outlooks. And the metaphor I used before 713 00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:16,760 was lights in the darkness and a different outlook. 714 00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:20,040 You, like you say more. Herbridge maybe is more focused 715 00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:22,760 on surviving like you said, whereas maybe George isn't as 716 00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:25,000 obsessed with surviving. Yeah. 717 00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:30,360 Whereas just a good life is more valuable than surviving. 718 00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:32,720 Like eking out a few extra years isn't just like, what is? 719 00:40:32,720 --> 00:40:35,640 What is that? Again, the Mary Mazdor lesson. 720 00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:39,040 What is a few extra years worth if those are bad years? 721 00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:42,840 If you're if you're suffering for those, did you really want 722 00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:47,160 those years, right? Yeah, I think that's a fantastic 723 00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:49,040 point. Cause 'cause like Frank Herbert 724 00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:53,720 in Dune is very interested in like survival of the human 725 00:40:53,720 --> 00:40:56,960 species as the absolute priority. 726 00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:00,600 And he has this very sort of like evolutionary biological 727 00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:03,360 perspective where he's like, you know, it's about the survival of 728 00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:06,080 the species and our evolution in order to continue. 729 00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:08,440 George Martin is not so much into that. 730 00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:11,200 George Martin is more interested in like preservation of the 731 00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:16,160 human spirit of of like, yes, healthy human emotions and 732 00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:20,400 goodness and and and I think that George Mardon in in a funny 733 00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:23,240 way like the the absolute survival of the human race is is 734 00:41:23,240 --> 00:41:26,600 not his priority. I don't think George Mardon in A 735 00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:29,920 Song of Ice on Fire fears the extinction of humanity quite in 736 00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:32,520 the same way that Frank Herbert does. 737 00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:34,280 That's a great way to put it, yeah. 738 00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:37,600 Or to frame it, yeah. Yeah, which, which obviously, 739 00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:39,840 you know, we're we're speculating about an unfinished 740 00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:42,240 series. You know, I think we we'll learn 741 00:41:42,240 --> 00:41:45,440 a lot more of this when humanity faces an apocalyptic threat from 742 00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:46,800 the White Walkers in the later books. 743 00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:49,320 But yeah, I I think Frank and George have a very different 744 00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:51,120 priorities in that sense as well. 745 00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:55,240 Like 2 examples that George uses to really drive this point home. 746 00:41:55,240 --> 00:41:59,280 One of them is very straightforward because it's 747 00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:02,960 almost like a a moral Riddle playing out right in front of 748 00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:05,000 you. And it's pretty clear who he 749 00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:06,600 thinks the person that's right is. 750 00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:09,600 And that's Davos arguing with Stannis over Cedric Storm. 751 00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:12,520 There's there's very little doubt in the reader's mind who's 752 00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:13,680 right there. And he's. 753 00:42:13,720 --> 00:42:15,600 And even though Stannis is like, yeah, but the whole world could 754 00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:16,960 depend on it. He's like, yeah, but dad was 755 00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:18,760 like, yeah, but it's wrong. This is a child like it's 756 00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:19,480 definitely. He's like, yeah. 757 00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:21,040 What's the world? What about a one? 758 00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:23,960 What's one child worth over the case Like he's like everything 759 00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:27,400 And you're like, yeah, Davos is right everything, you know. 760 00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:31,040 And and then another one is like when Tywin's like, well, what's 761 00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:34,440 what's worse, 10 killing 10,000 men in battle or a few men at 762 00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:37,680 dinner and Tyrians doesn't know what to say to that but you're 763 00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:40,960 left thinking yeah, but that's you're wrong about that that's 764 00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:43,680 not not to mention it's not really what happened about with 765 00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:45,080 the Red Wedding. Thousands of people were 766 00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:48,120 slaughtered at dinner but that but let's say Tywin was being 767 00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:50,960 honest there. You'd still be, like morally 768 00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:52,160 uncomfortable. That's like, I don't know if 769 00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:55,560 that's true though. You know, like just so the bad 770 00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:57,680 guys are. I mean, not the Tywin and Santis 771 00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:00,200 are anywhere near the same type of character. 772 00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:05,000 But Stannis was clearly flirting with the the moral fork in the 773 00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:07,920 road that is is, at least from George's point of view, I think 774 00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:10,480 is clearly defined. You may disagree you you out 775 00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:15,280 there might disagree with with Stannis and Davos there, you 776 00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:17,080 might disagree with Tywin. You might agree with Tywin. 777 00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:19,960 But I don't think, I don't think there's much doubt on who George 778 00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:21,880 agrees with. And I think George definitely 779 00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:24,160 agrees with Davos. And George definitely doesn't 780 00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:27,600 agree with Tywin 'cause like you said, and I think you put it 781 00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:30,840 really well, it's about preserving the soul of humanity 782 00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:35,120 rather than the quantity or totality of humanity. 783 00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:40,600 Yeah, yeah, I I think that is such a good point about Stannis 784 00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:43,800 and Edrick Storm. I I think that moment is the 785 00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:47,000 heart of A Song of Ice and Fire in a lot of ways like it. 786 00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:51,960 It's that idea of you know, will you sacrifice A literal innocent 787 00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:55,520 human child for the sake of winning and even for the sake of 788 00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:58,720 saving the realm and and and yeah, as you say, the answer is 789 00:43:58,720 --> 00:44:01,080 no, you should not. Like we should not sacrifice our 790 00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:05,520 soul for anything. It it would be better for us to 791 00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:09,000 go extinct than for us to sacrifice our souls and our 792 00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:13,120 compassion. Whereas in Dune, the message of 793 00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:16,400 Dune is you should absolutely sacrifice your human compassion 794 00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:19,520 for the sake of survival, because that's what The God 795 00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:25,680 Emperor later does in book four, he he oppresses humanity cruelly 796 00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:28,760 for 3000 years for the sake of our survival. 797 00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:32,600 And you know, even Paul Paul's jihad, in which he kills 798 00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:36,080 billions of people and sterilizes entire planets, I 799 00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:39,040 mean it it it's sort of framed as a bad thing, but like, but 800 00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:41,040 like kind of not as well like it. 801 00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:44,200 Like, it was just a necessary part of his ascension. 802 00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:48,760 And in the conversation Paul has with Lato in book three, Lato 803 00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:51,680 says that, yeah, you, you committed a genocide and killed 804 00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:56,040 trillions of people and you didn't go far enough, is what 805 00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:58,160 Lato says in book three, Lato tells Paul. 806 00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:01,520 You you were too much of A pussy to do what was necessary in 807 00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:03,080 completely subjugating the world. 808 00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:06,600 So it's like genocide was not. It was not enough. 809 00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:08,680 And so it's like, Oh, my God, Frank. 810 00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:13,160 Evan, Like, you know, George would rather sacrifice humanity 811 00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:17,920 than than kill one bastard boy. But Frank is entirely willing to 812 00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:21,640 subjugate a universe for the sake of our survival. 813 00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:25,040 So, yeah, that that may be the key, the, the heart of the 814 00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:28,240 difference between George Martin and Frank Herbert. 815 00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:30,520 That's pretty. Good. 816 00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:32,240 Yeah. I think I, I, I hadn't thought 817 00:45:32,240 --> 00:45:36,160 about this nearly as much. I like how much we've gotten 818 00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:38,240 into it, just kind of naturally during this discussion. 819 00:45:38,720 --> 00:45:42,160 Yeah, this is someone Lucas Hunt in the live chat says who is 820 00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:44,240 Tywin Lannister's parallel in Dune? 821 00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:48,080 I would say the closest parallel to Tywin Lannister is Goddamn 822 00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:50,360 Lato the Second, the God Emperor of Dune. 823 00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:53,920 Like Dune. Book Four is like what if Tywin 824 00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:57,040 was the Emperor of the universe? Like that is what Book Four is 825 00:45:57,040 --> 00:46:00,200 like because Lato is the ultimate Machiavellian. 826 00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:03,960 I will sacrifice everything for the survival. 827 00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:06,680 And I mean you know Tywin is more self interested, Tywin is 828 00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:09,360 more proud and self interested and he's got daddy issues. 829 00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:13,680 But, but in terms of like make sacrificing anything to win and 830 00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:17,080 in terms of like making those, you know what is killing 100 men 831 00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:19,640 at dinner compared to killing 1000 on the battlefield like 832 00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:22,560 that is something that later God Emperor would say so. 833 00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:25,960 Tywin absolutely sacrificed the souls of his all his children 834 00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:28,080 like in in that sense. Like he made them all. 835 00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:32,400 They all turned out serious issues because of his goals, 836 00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:33,960 right. Like that's very these are like, 837 00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:35,920 you can draw a line from one to the other. 838 00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:40,760 And his pride, yeah. Yeah, I think that we should 839 00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:44,200 wrap this up shortly. This was a wonderful chat. 840 00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:46,880 I think we've covered a lot of interesting crowd. 841 00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:50,600 Yeah, I I had like 3 quickies. Quick fun ones. 842 00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:51,840 We could. Oh yeah, absolutely Wanted. 843 00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:54,040 To wrap up with some miscellaneous is if that's cool. 844 00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:57,160 Yeah, but for that we we'll spend some time answering the 845 00:46:57,160 --> 00:46:59,480 last of the Super chats, so if anyone's got anything they 846 00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:02,600 desperately want us to chat about, let us know. 847 00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:05,160 But yeah, well, let's finish up with some fun, miscellaneous 848 00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:10,400 things. So one I think is Duncan Idaho 849 00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:13,760 and Duncan the tall. I mean Duncan is not the not a 850 00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:17,040 super rare name, but it it's a kind of an odd name to be in A 851 00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:23,040 Song of Ice and Fire. Now both theories are noted for 852 00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:28,440 not really going to at first, at least with using a lot of 853 00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:30,520 familiar names. In George's case, he uses ones 854 00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:32,440 that are just slightly different, like Joffrey instead 855 00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:36,560 of Jeffrey, or you Ned Nedar Edard instead of Edward. 856 00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:39,480 You know, like there's so many examples like that and it's long 857 00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:41,320 away some fire. Yeah. 858 00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:45,360 Whereas Dune uses all these biblical names and also a lot of 859 00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:47,680 like Middle Eastern names that aren't as familiar to a lot of 860 00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:51,600 Western readers but still are earth names for Duncan and 861 00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:52,920 Duncan. They have a lot in common 862 00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:56,000 besides their name too. Yeah, I think I saw some funny 863 00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:59,280 tweet that was about how like, you know, June is like, you 864 00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:04,720 know, there's a character called Tayeka, Nick and Shidom and and 865 00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:07,080 and all these wild names. And there's a guy called like 866 00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:10,840 Fred or George, like Paul. You know, it's kind of funny the 867 00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:12,880 different vibes they use for the languages. 868 00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:17,720 There's a wildling named Halleck and a Heron. 869 00:48:17,720 --> 00:48:19,880 The Black's father was also named Halleck. 870 00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:21,720 Halleck Horror. I don't know if that might be a 871 00:48:21,720 --> 00:48:24,800 a nod to Gurney. Yeah, it might just be Gurney 872 00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:26,080 Halleck. Halleck I don't. 873 00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:27,200 Know. I don't know. 874 00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:28,760 Is Halleck a common name? I don't. 875 00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:30,320 I don't. I don't know any Hallecks. 876 00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:35,440 I googled Halleck like 15 minutes ago in advance of this 877 00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:38,160 little note and I just there's a couple and it comes up a couple 878 00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:39,960 times, but it's not. Yeah, it doesn't seem very 879 00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:43,760 common or famous for much, so I feel like it's probably 880 00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:45,880 connected at least. You know, maybe a nod. 881 00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:50,600 Yeah, cool. It's interesting how Dragons 882 00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:54,280 seem to be involved in the creation of Valyrian steel. 883 00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:56,720 You know Song of Ice and fire, which is like the crucial 884 00:48:56,720 --> 00:48:59,760 weapon. And in Dune, sandworms are the 885 00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:03,240 source of Chris knives, which are the important weapons like 886 00:49:03,240 --> 00:49:05,160 Valyrian steel. And also sandworms make the 887 00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:08,200 spice which is the all important drug. 888 00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:13,480 So like the the the big powerful monster is the source of like 889 00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:15,800 tools and and weapons and power as well. 890 00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:19,320 That's true. That's pretty cool. 891 00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:20,360 Yeah. I hadn't. 892 00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:25,080 I hadn't thought about the the Chris knife and Valyrian steel 893 00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:27,040 combo. I had noticed the pale white 894 00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:30,840 glow as and noticed that would be a parallel to Dawn and the 895 00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:33,560 worthiness to wield it, which is a parallel to Dawn. 896 00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:35,640 But that's not really an direct influence. 897 00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:38,800 That's more of a recurring trope and mythology of the worthiness 898 00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:43,520 to wield, like, you know, Excalibur or Yolnir or any 899 00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:46,600 number of famous weapons that you have to be of certain 900 00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:50,120 character or whatever to wield. Yeah, yeah. 901 00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:54,520 Frank Herbert talked about the sand worm as like the archetypal 902 00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:58,600 monster that the hero must face, the beast, the dragon guarding 903 00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:00,720 the gold. So it's appropriate that, like 904 00:50:00,720 --> 00:50:04,320 the archetypal beast monster that the hero must face is the 905 00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:08,080 source of the sword, the special magic sword, the blade that the 906 00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:10,760 hero wields. And George suddenly plays with 907 00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:13,840 that with his Dragons and Valyrian steel as well. 908 00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:19,440 Right on, here's one from our friend Nina Shout out to good 909 00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:23,320 Queen ali.tumblr.com. She pointed out that Irulon 910 00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:27,720 Meeks Shiny Contraceptives Shiny takes fertility treatments and 911 00:50:27,720 --> 00:50:28,960 kind of counteracts that, I guess. 912 00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:32,120 And in in his In Game of Thrones, Sybil Westerling gives 913 00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:35,320 her own daughter receptives and tells her their fertility drugs. 914 00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:39,920 Yeah, so to prevent her from conceiving with Rob and Jane 915 00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:43,200 even talks about how she's expecting to have twins. 916 00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:44,160 She's like excited she's gonna have. 917 00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:47,560 Twins So. She obviously doesn't, but 918 00:50:47,720 --> 00:50:50,000 deepens the potential parallel there. 919 00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:53,560 Yeah, interesting, interesting. And and also, you know, Jane and 920 00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:58,200 Rob's relationship is sort of a forbidden and ill advised one in 921 00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:00,880 the same way that Jessica objects to Charlie and Paul's 922 00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:03,800 relationship, because it's not the best political move. 923 00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:08,040 And that's exactly, yeah. Catlin objects to the yes, very 924 00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:09,840 good 'cause we've already made a ton of cattle and Jessica 925 00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:13,360 parallels so that that fits in there, that category very 926 00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:14,920 nicely. Excellent. 927 00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:17,120 Yeah, Rob. Yeah. 928 00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:18,000 Yeah. No, yeah, that's really 929 00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:20,640 interesting. And yeah, absolutely, absolutely 930 00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:23,360 check out Good Queen Allison on Tumblr. 931 00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:27,280 Nina Freel does some really excellent Song of us in Fire 932 00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:30,040 analysis. Very insightful stuff. 933 00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:31,120 Yeah, it's. But a lot of real world 934 00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:32,560 parallels too. She's good with that. 935 00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:36,280 OK, my last one, my last one. This is pure fun. 936 00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:42,320 It was a very recent episode of Futurama from the Re Re Re 937 00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:48,200 reboot of Futurama, which had a micro adventure inside a cat 938 00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:50,680 litter box. Or a litter box, I guess it was. 939 00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:52,080 I don't know if it was cat litter, I forget. 940 00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:57,920 Anyway, they were it was doomed like Dune, you know, But Doom. 941 00:51:57,920 --> 00:51:59,920 And there was worms in there, and they were like the sand 942 00:51:59,920 --> 00:52:02,640 worms. And Futurama course is made by 943 00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:04,120 the same creators as The Simpsons. 944 00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:06,080 And The Simpsons did a Game of Thrones episode. 945 00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:09,440 So Futurama did a Dune episode. Simpsons did a Game of Thrones 946 00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:10,720 episode. There you go. 947 00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:14,520 We need a we need a dune, explained Video Stat. 948 00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:19,360 Don't we? Yes, Doom Dong right. 949 00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:23,880 I I think there was around the time that the Dune book came out 950 00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:26,360 in the 60s, there was like a parody book that came out that 951 00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:32,720 was called Dune Doon and it was like some just some parody of 952 00:52:32,720 --> 00:52:35,440 Dune that came out. You always forget that like you 953 00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:38,920 know, the 60s is when Dune came out such a different time in 954 00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:42,400 terms of media. The the idea of like parody 955 00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:46,200 books coming out is is not something that that happens a 956 00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:51,440 lot in 2023, is it parodies of popular movies coming out in 957 00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:53,040 book form. But you know, I guess that's 958 00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:55,480 what we did before YouTube and TikTok. 959 00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:58,080 OK, So what? What year did what year did the 960 00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:00,960 first book Dune come out? 65 I think. 961 00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:07,920 As I'm pretty sure George R Martin was born, he was a 962 00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:12,520 teenager when JFK, I'd say he was born in 48. 963 00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:15,040 Yeah, so he would have been 17 when Dune came out. 964 00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:18,920 So that's like, yeah, right in his wheel, His developing nerd 965 00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:23,600 brain wheelhouse right there. Oh yeah, pretty perfect. 966 00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:27,880 Yep, slides right in there with those Marvel Comics we mentioned 967 00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:29,600 earlier. Stan Lee was doing his thing, 968 00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:34,160 and Mike Herbert was on the scene with a game changer it. 969 00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:37,000 Would have been so fascinating to hear them have a 970 00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:40,360 conversation. Yeah, it really would have been. 971 00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:41,280 That's true. I wonder. 972 00:53:41,280 --> 00:53:42,920 I wonder if they wonder if that ever happened. 973 00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:45,440 I wonder if they're. I'm sure their paths must have 974 00:53:45,440 --> 00:53:49,520 crossed a few times, but doesn't mean they had like discussions 975 00:53:49,520 --> 00:53:52,280 or alone. Anything more substantial than 976 00:53:52,280 --> 00:53:54,400 that be something worth researching? 977 00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:57,320 For sure. All right, well, let's respond 978 00:53:57,320 --> 00:54:00,160 to the last of the Super chats and then I think we will wrap up 979 00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:02,920 this live stream. Thanks for listening everybody 980 00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:06,080 and we will have a look at thank you for the Super chat from 981 00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:09,320 Professor 13 N who says love the content. 982 00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:11,400 Have you seen the Game of Thrones RPG? 983 00:54:11,400 --> 00:54:13,960 It came out before A Feast for Crows and is super interesting. 984 00:54:14,040 --> 00:54:17,360 Shout out to Stannis, the one true king and Thaddeus Rowan. 985 00:54:17,720 --> 00:54:19,840 Have you played the Game of Thrones RPG, Aziz? 986 00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:23,880 Never played it, but I looked at the rule books and there there 987 00:54:24,240 --> 00:54:27,680 used to be some lore from it that was cited. 988 00:54:28,240 --> 00:54:31,120 It's maybe more considered semi cannon now, but there were some 989 00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:34,240 things about like at least the monstrous and a few other 990 00:54:34,240 --> 00:54:36,240 characters that popped up in there that were small little 991 00:54:36,240 --> 00:54:38,480 tidbits that were fun. So, you know, in our effort to 992 00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:41,200 try to learn every little bit of lore we had, we had to look at 993 00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:43,000 those things. But I I never actually played 994 00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:45,320 it, which is too bad 'cause it seems like it would have been 995 00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:48,880 fun. Yeah, Professor might also be 996 00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:54,240 referring to the video game RPG that came out, which which I I 997 00:54:54,240 --> 00:54:56,960 also haven't played, but some people say that it's good. 998 00:54:56,960 --> 00:54:58,840 It looks a little bit, I don't know, so it doesn't look like 999 00:54:58,840 --> 00:55:00,840 the easiest game to get into, but apparently it's good. 1000 00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:04,120 Yeah, there were a couple of. There was like a A Game of 1001 00:55:04,120 --> 00:55:06,920 Thrones conquest, which is didn't do very well, and there 1002 00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:09,000 was the one where you could play the Nights Watch character in 1003 00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:11,240 the real or Priest. I did play a little bit of and 1004 00:55:11,520 --> 00:55:15,520 then there's CK3 and CK2 Crusader Kings 2:00 and 3:00, 1005 00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:19,720 Songoist Fire mods that I stream on Fridays, which are like full. 1006 00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:22,360 You're playing the whole dynasty through like playing out the 1007 00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:25,280 character until they take overs their heir. 1008 00:55:26,000 --> 00:55:30,440 Mountain Blade did a mod as well so you could play sieges and 1009 00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:32,800 small parties, skirmishing and fighting. 1010 00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:36,400 And normally it's set in a regular like medieval setting. 1011 00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:39,960 But there's a there was a mod for for Westeros and it was it 1012 00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:41,720 was quite good. Yeah, quite good. 1013 00:55:41,720 --> 00:55:42,640 I don't know. I don't know if it's been 1014 00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:45,640 updated or or if there's a new one or whatever, but there are a 1015 00:55:45,640 --> 00:55:47,920 lot of good Game of Thrones RP GS out there and I'm. 1016 00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:50,480 I imagine there's more coming one of these days. 1017 00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:54,600 It it is wild to me though, that the literal most popular TV show 1018 00:55:54,600 --> 00:55:59,720 of our era, the best video game adaptations that it has, are 1019 00:55:59,720 --> 00:56:04,000 mods made by fans. The people who own this IP have 1020 00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:09,080 not managed to turn the most popular fantasy story of our 1021 00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:13,520 dime into a decent into a popular good video game. 1022 00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:15,960 Which is good. Point a bit ridiculous. 1023 00:56:16,760 --> 00:56:18,000 Thanks for the. Fumble isn't. 1024 00:56:18,320 --> 00:56:21,640 It thanks for the Super chat from Sir Flement Brax who says 1025 00:56:21,640 --> 00:56:24,760 I'm starting a fund for a new Durkheim video from Shift. 1026 00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:29,520 One of the really really early old Shift X videos was about a 1027 00:56:29,520 --> 00:56:32,360 sociology theory from Emil Durkheim. 1028 00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:36,800 That's a very old video, so I I have no memory of whether that 1029 00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:39,680 video is any good or not. But I'm glad that I'm glad that 1030 00:56:39,680 --> 00:56:42,720 people I've enjoyed it and we have made more non fiction 1031 00:56:42,720 --> 00:56:45,320 videos like the religion and disaster video and I would like 1032 00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:47,960 to make more non fiction videos in future. 1033 00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:49,800 So we'll look out for. That's cool. 1034 00:56:50,440 --> 00:56:52,840 Yeah, right on. Thanks for the Super chat 1035 00:56:52,840 --> 00:56:54,880 encourage. You that as well, yeah. 1036 00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:57,280 Thanks. Thanks to you, Cass. 1037 00:56:57,280 --> 00:57:00,240 Who says I'm here for Wallace and Wooble and a sprinkle of 1038 00:57:00,240 --> 00:57:03,080 winkles on my dinkle. Thank you for that, Cass. 1039 00:57:03,400 --> 00:57:09,240 Excuse me, and thank you among U.S. law, who said last year you 1040 00:57:09,240 --> 00:57:12,320 said The Winds of Winter will come out next year or never. 1041 00:57:12,960 --> 00:57:15,400 Are we doomed, Aziz? Are we doomed? 1042 00:57:16,960 --> 00:57:19,960 I don't think we're doomed. You know, it's a funny silver 1043 00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:26,520 lining of the US writers and actors strike is that all of 1044 00:57:26,520 --> 00:57:28,680 George's Hollywood projects are paused. 1045 00:57:28,680 --> 00:57:32,280 So you really can't do anything else but work on the book. 1046 00:57:32,280 --> 00:57:35,120 And and from what we've heard, we know a couple of his people, 1047 00:57:35,360 --> 00:57:37,560 he's written quite a lot. He's he's written, it's going to 1048 00:57:37,560 --> 00:57:39,680 be the biggest book of the series probably. 1049 00:57:40,440 --> 00:57:42,880 And so it's not as if he's stuck. 1050 00:57:43,040 --> 00:57:44,840 He might be stuck in certain places, but he's not stuck 1051 00:57:44,840 --> 00:57:48,080 overall. He's been writing and so yeah, I 1052 00:57:48,080 --> 00:57:50,760 remain optimistic about at least something, but I'm not going to 1053 00:57:50,760 --> 00:57:54,960 put any sort of timeline on it. I've played that game before and 1054 00:57:54,960 --> 00:57:56,800 lost. Yeah, we all have. 1055 00:57:57,280 --> 00:58:00,520 Yeah, like like everyone I was a fool for trying to predict a 1056 00:58:00,520 --> 00:58:02,880 year. He he does say that he he's 2 1057 00:58:02,880 --> 00:58:08,760 thirds 75 no three quarters 75% finished with the book is is 1058 00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:10,280 what he said most recently right. 1059 00:58:11,400 --> 00:58:13,160 Think so. I don't recall. 1060 00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:15,320 Yeah, it's. There's been so many updates 1061 00:58:15,520 --> 00:58:17,640 over the years. They're all blur now, yeah. 1062 00:58:17,880 --> 00:58:21,120 Well, I I I can't help but notice that it took him 12 years 1063 00:58:21,120 --> 00:58:26,320 to get to 3/4 of the way and he started at 1/4 of the way 1064 00:58:26,320 --> 00:58:29,520 because 1/4 of the book was cut from the previous book dance. 1065 00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:32,960 So if it took him 12 years to write half the book, it could 1066 00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:36,720 easily be six years to to write the last quarter of the book if 1067 00:58:36,720 --> 00:58:39,640 my math is right. So you know my yeah, don't do 1068 00:58:39,640 --> 00:58:44,440 the math is my advice. Charges isn't great at math 1069 00:58:44,440 --> 00:58:47,520 anyway, so you know, maybe it'll just work out through his 1070 00:58:47,800 --> 00:58:49,400 exception of math. Yeah, that's right. 1071 00:58:49,400 --> 00:58:52,680 We shouldn't do the math because because George doesn't do the 1072 00:58:52,680 --> 00:58:54,800 math. George George's writing process 1073 00:58:54,800 --> 00:58:58,400 does not follow any human mathematics, so we should not 1074 00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:02,320 attempt to predict it. And thanks, Nuisance, he says. 1075 00:59:02,320 --> 00:59:04,920 Is there a chance we'll get everything we want for the Song 1076 00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:07,720 of Ice and Fire universe? Even if we get The Winds of 1077 00:59:07,720 --> 00:59:09,600 Winter at A Dream of Spring, we're not going to get all the 1078 00:59:09,600 --> 00:59:12,480 Duncan egg novellas. What Do you recognize this? 1079 00:59:12,480 --> 00:59:14,600 There's no way we get everything we want because there we there's 1080 00:59:14,600 --> 00:59:15,880 so much that we want. Yeah. 1081 00:59:15,880 --> 00:59:17,920 So that's. I get that's kind of a In some 1082 00:59:17,920 --> 00:59:20,800 ways that's a low hanging fruit. Answer was I want. 1083 00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:24,760 I want more than is reasonable in the first place. 1084 00:59:25,280 --> 00:59:27,760 Yes, there is. There is no end to what we want. 1085 00:59:27,760 --> 00:59:31,600 If George did by some miracle deliver wins and dream and 12 1086 00:59:31,600 --> 00:59:35,920 Duncan Egg books and Part 2 of the Georgia Armorillion Fire and 1087 00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:39,200 Blood Part 2, we would just ask for for 1000 more. 1088 00:59:39,200 --> 00:59:43,600 And I think George knows he's in a bit of a Sisyphean never 1089 00:59:43,600 --> 00:59:48,000 ending trap which is you know it it it's it's enormous success 1090 00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:50,760 but it's also something that he will literally never escape 1091 00:59:50,760 --> 00:59:54,440 until the day that he dies. So I you know, there's good and 1092 00:59:54,440 --> 00:59:55,800 bad here. There's, there's bitter. 1093 00:59:55,800 --> 00:59:58,400 Success, right? I have a question for nuisance, 1094 00:59:58,400 --> 01:00:02,320 a return question back at them. And what do you know about de 1095 01:00:02,320 --> 01:00:05,040 aging and modern medical procedure? 1096 01:00:05,240 --> 01:00:09,920 Maybe we need a GoFundMe to invest in some cryogenic science 1097 01:00:09,920 --> 01:00:12,480 for George Martin, but he doesn't like it when people 1098 01:00:12,480 --> 01:00:16,240 speculate about his death. So maybe we maybe we shouldn't. 1099 01:00:16,440 --> 01:00:17,800 I wouldn't either. I wouldn't want that. 1100 01:00:17,800 --> 01:00:22,480 Either that doesn't sound doesn't or yeah. 1101 01:00:23,360 --> 01:00:26,800 And, and yeah, I want to hear that Professor 13 clarifies 1102 01:00:26,800 --> 01:00:31,520 that, yeah, he was talking about the tabletop D&D esque RPG Aziz. 1103 01:00:31,520 --> 01:00:34,840 The deluxe rulebook says it's an 8 out of 10. 1104 01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:38,320 I think it's time to wrap up this stream. 1105 01:00:38,560 --> 01:00:42,280 It's been a long stream. Aziz, thank you so much for 1106 01:00:42,280 --> 01:00:45,480 joining in talking about Song of Ice and Fire in June. 1107 01:00:46,600 --> 01:00:48,000 Yeah, thanks for having me. This was great. 1108 01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:51,960 We had a lot of notes, but we also had a lot of things come 1109 01:00:51,960 --> 01:00:55,240 up, which is essence of a good discussion when you you're 1110 01:00:55,240 --> 01:00:58,440 prepared, but also discussion takes you places you didn't 1111 01:00:58,440 --> 01:01:01,040 expect you're inspired to with new ideas. 1112 01:01:01,040 --> 01:01:03,800 And yeah, this was great, this was a lot of fun on this is, 1113 01:01:03,800 --> 01:01:05,680 like I said at the beginning, a niche discussion. 1114 01:01:05,680 --> 01:01:10,320 But that's also that kind of the essence of geek culture is, is 1115 01:01:10,320 --> 01:01:12,760 finding your niches and and being passionate about them, 1116 01:01:13,000 --> 01:01:15,360 regardless of who else is watching or caring. 1117 01:01:15,680 --> 01:01:17,480 And I think a lot of y'all did care. 1118 01:01:17,480 --> 01:01:20,760 A lot of y'all enjoyed this, especially this person who asks 1119 01:01:21,080 --> 01:01:25,600 if this picture of Duke Leto and Ned Stark, meaning Sean Bean and 1120 01:01:25,600 --> 01:01:27,720 Oscar Isaac, is is pictures of you and me. 1121 01:01:28,120 --> 01:01:29,960 Yeah, that that that's exactly how I look. 1122 01:01:30,080 --> 01:01:33,440 That's correct. Yes, we look like amalgams of 1123 01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:35,280 them both, yes. That's right. 1124 01:01:35,920 --> 01:01:36,680 Yeah. Yeah. 1125 01:01:36,680 --> 01:01:37,960 No, thank you so much for coming on. 1126 01:01:37,960 --> 01:01:40,760 And and you know, Aziz did most of the work, writing up some 1127 01:01:40,760 --> 01:01:43,680 notes, checking out these similarities. 1128 01:01:43,680 --> 01:01:46,680 So I'm grateful for that. It's one of the great long 1129 01:01:46,680 --> 01:01:51,840 running OJ Song of Ice and Fire community institutions is 1130 01:01:51,840 --> 01:01:53,920 history of Westeros. Though History of Westeros was 1131 01:01:53,920 --> 01:01:57,920 one of my inspirations in covering Song of Ice and Fire 1132 01:01:57,920 --> 01:02:02,040 myself on Off Shift X, so we'll definitely, definitely support 1133 01:02:02,040 --> 01:02:04,040 him. You're very kind. 1134 01:02:04,040 --> 01:02:05,560 Thank you for that. This was super fun. 1135 01:02:05,560 --> 01:02:08,560 I love having discussions with other smart people that know 1136 01:02:08,560 --> 01:02:12,240 their stuff with these, with these great large fandoms, and 1137 01:02:12,360 --> 01:02:14,440 we got really meta today. This is one of the most meta 1138 01:02:14,440 --> 01:02:18,160 discussions I've ever had. We're talking about like things 1139 01:02:18,160 --> 01:02:21,080 that influence them as kids and what drugs they did. 1140 01:02:21,080 --> 01:02:24,880 Like all of that stuff that's that's really getting into it, 1141 01:02:24,880 --> 01:02:25,680 man. Yeah. 1142 01:02:25,800 --> 01:02:28,400 No, Always love getting into the the heart of it all. 1143 01:02:28,680 --> 01:02:29,280 Thanks guys.